Re: [Elecraft] K3 NR and KIO3B INTERFACE
My K3S has sounded like that since I bought it. 73 Terry N7BDL On 7/13/17 6:49 PM, Peter Pellack via Elecraft wrote: Last year we upgraded one of the K3's with the installation of the KIO3B interface kit. Shortly after we noticed that the NR sounded different. Like an "echo", even on the least aggressive setting. The NR performance appeared to have significantly suffered. Coincidence with the KIO3B installation ? We put the K3 on the shelf and used the backup K3 w/o the upgraded IO board. Two months ago we upgraded the backup K3 with the KIO3B interface. Guess what, the same issue,the NR reduction has suffered the same symptoms as the 1st K3 ! What is going on here ? Tnx,73,Peter,HS0ZKX __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to ttaylor2...@gmail.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 NR needs improvement - audio artifact
Hi, I also use NR on CW and agree it gives a nice reduction of background noise, but also notice a very annoying issue: Intermittently, there is a click in the headphones output signal. It happens whenever I have NR switched on (even on a mild setting, like F1-2). It most often occurs just after I've finished sending. Then, the receive audio is diminished for a fraction of a second, followed by a quite loud click. This issue does not happen all the time, although I can fairly well reproduce it within one minute of trying. The issue is independent of my AGC settings (fast, slow or off). I can also reproduce it when I use TX test mode. And also with sidetone volume set to 0. It's not related to the QSK settings, as I can also reproduce the issue with the K3 set to semi-QSK with the delay set to .35 seconds. With the K3 on speaker, I can hear the diminishing of the receive audio, but not the click. I've made a recording of it via the K3 Line Out with Audacity. On the recording you can see and hear the diminishing audio, but not the click. Anyone else notice this? My firmware: MCU 4.67, DSP 2.81 73 de Frank PA4N From: drewko drew...@verizon.net Date: 5 september 2013 19:28:35 GMT+02:00 […] With AF Gain at 12 o'clock and RF Gain at 3 o'clock, engaging NR at the 1-2 setting is VERY quiet. (This probably depends alot on your ambient noise and speaker/headphone sensitivity.) __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 NR needs improvement
Yes, The NR needs improvement (at least on SSB) and the notch should be inside the AGC loop. It has been said so many times before. I know there are people who use the K3/IF - softrock/lp-pan - comuterSDR-software combo in same cases instead of the K3 SDR. H, The NB's (DSP and hardware) both work as I would expect. In de upcoming TN2MS DXpedition I will use the the K3-NR on 160/80 CW. That is where it helps me against the fatigue of a whole night on those bands. 73 Arie PA3A __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 NR needs improvement
Johnny, I agree with both you and Eric. On CW I like the NR, APF and notch filter. Overall no complaints on CW. Since I have had my K3's my complaint is with the NR on SSB. I agree with you about the NR on the Icoms. Wish the K3 operated similarly on SSB. I find the Icom NR less fatiguing with the low settings. Other than that I am a happy camper with the K3's. You can hear them both in use at KP2M in October for the CQWW SSB Test. We will also have a KPA500 with us along with the stations other two amps. 73, N2TK, Tony K3 #311, #1435 -Original Message- From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Johnny Siu Sent: Thursday, September 05, 2013 2:07 AM To: Elecraft Subject: [Elecraft] K3 NR needs improvement Hello Eric, As mentioned by other group members, this topic appears from time to time. I am the one in this forum who insist on the NR of K3 is not as good as my big ICOMs. I eventually find the answers for myself. I am a 99% SSB operator and my ears can still hear above 12Khz. As a result, I am very sensitive to the artifact of the NR of K3. While elecraft confirm the NR in KX3 is the same as K3, I find the audio of my KX3 is better in SSB than K3. The notch filter of K3 can notch the annoying carrier. Regrettably, it is outside the AGC loop and does not give any help if the offending carrier is desensing the AGC. TNX 73, Johnny VR2XMC 寄件人︰ eric manning emann...@cs.uvic.ca 收件人︰ elecraft@mailman.qth.net 傳送日期︰ 2013年09月5日 (週四) 12:33 PM 主題︰ [Elecraft] K3 NR needs improvement I'm a CW op, I'm baffled by the comments critical of the K3 NR, APF and notch filter. The NR generally removes ALL random noise, meaning that the rcvr is silent in the absence of signals. Admittedly, It does get a little upset in the presence of many strong signals, so I usually turn it off in pileups. The notch filter can be tuned manually to silence one interfering CW signal. The APF is a bit tricky, you need to use fine tuning [ 3 digits after the VFO decimal point], tune SLOWWLLY and listen for the weak signal to pop out of the noise. But pop out it does. Eric VA7DZ __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 NR needs improvement
Eric - What NR settings are you using on CW? I can't get rid of the background white noise with the K3 NR like I can with my Orion NR. I wish I could! My K3 is never 'silent' with NR turned on. 73 de K1ESE John __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 NR needs improvement
John, I have adjusted my Rx EQ to attenuate the higher freqs. Also, I usually have the RF Gain and preamp set so that noise floor is just audible. My Preamp is almost always off. With AF Gain at 12 o'clock and RF Gain at 3 o'clock, engaging NR at the 1-2 setting is VERY quiet. (This probably depends alot on your ambient noise and speaker/headphone sensitivity.) My only complaint about NR is the brief muting that occurs while the filter rebuilds upon changing bandwidth settings. I would prefer to hear a noisy signal during this period rather than complete muting. I have no idea if that is something that could be done in the coding... I frequently find myself adjusting the RF gain control to the noise floor, whether i'm using NR or not. I wish there were a single button push that could do this. Perhaps on some future rig... 73, Drew AF2Z On Thu, 05 Sep 2013 12:38:46 -0400, you wrote: Eric - What NR settings are you using on CW? I can't get rid of the background white noise with the K3 NR like I can with my Orion NR. I wish I could! My K3 is never 'silent' with NR turned on. 73 de K1ESE John __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 NR needs improvement
I live in a high noise environment for 40 and 80m and find I can never get a useful result with the noise reduction on the K3, subsequently I never use it. I find that my other rigs finish up far more comfortable to listen to on these frequencies where noise is prevalent. In an otherwise excellent radio this is a major disappointment, I might be wrong but most of the software effort seems devoted to the KX3 so I am not expecting any change soon. 73 Roger VK3ADE. Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 NR needs improvement Eric - What NR settings are you using on CW? I can't get rid of the background white noise with the K3 NR like I can with my Orion NR. I wish I could! My K3 is never 'silent' with NR turned on. 73 de K1ESE John __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 NR needs improvement
_I have a pretty high line noise problem here on six meters and the NR doesn't make much of a dent in it. However when I tried the noise blanker it worked great -- 10_12 DB of noise reduction as shown by wsjt. Try it. Start with the IF blanker first and then add in some dsp. Also, make sure your agc isn't activating on the noise. If your audio noise level increases if you turn agc off, set the THR a bit higher. 73, Fred ke7x ___ From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net [elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Roger de Valle [ro...@genette.biz] Sent: Thursday, September 05, 2013 4:03 PM To: 'Elecraft List' Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 NR needs improvement I live in a high noise environment for 40 and 80m and find I can never get a useful result with the noise reduction on the K3, subsequently I never use it. I find that my other rigs finish up far more comfortable to listen to on these frequencies where noise is prevalent. In an otherwise excellent radio this is a major disappointment, I might be wrong but most of the software effort seems devoted to the KX3 so I am not expecting any change soon. 73 Roger VK3ADE. Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 NR needs improvement Eric - What NR settings are you using on CW? I can't get rid of the background white noise with the K3 NR like I can with my Orion NR. I wish I could! My K3 is never 'silent' with NR turned on. 73 de K1ESE John __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 NR needs improvement
Actually you ought to start with the DSP first. IF NB is a last resort because it can generate trash when a strong signal shows up outside the passband. 73 de Brian/K3KO On 9/5/2013 23:39, Cady, Fred wrote: _I have a pretty high line noise problem here on six meters and the NR doesn't make much of a dent in it. However when I tried the noise blanker it worked great -- 10_12 DB of noise reduction as shown by wsjt. Try it. Start with the IF blanker first and then add in some dsp. Also, make sure your agc isn't activating on the noise. If your audio noise level increases if you turn agc off, set the THR a bit higher. 73, Fred ke7x ___ From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net [elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Roger de Valle [ro...@genette.biz] Sent: Thursday, September 05, 2013 4:03 PM To: 'Elecraft List' Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 NR needs improvement I live in a high noise environment for 40 and 80m and find I can never get a useful result with the noise reduction on the K3, subsequently I never use it. I find that my other rigs finish up far more comfortable to listen to on these frequencies where noise is prevalent. In an otherwise excellent radio this is a major disappointment, I might be wrong but most of the software effort seems devoted to the KX3 so I am not expecting any change soon. 73 Roger VK3ADE. Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 NR needs improvement Eric - What NR settings are you using on CW? I can't get rid of the background white noise with the K3 NR like I can with my Orion NR. I wish I could! My K3 is never 'silent' with NR turned on. 73 de K1ESE John __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.2242 / Virus Database: 3222/6140 - Release Date: 09/05/13 - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.2242 / Virus Database: 3222/6140 - Release Date: 09/05/13 __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 NR needs improvement
Amazing stuff. Must be my ears but I have not found a case where the NR did not work as expected. Compared to an Icom I had here the only way I found it worked great was when in attenuated the weak signals so much they were not heard of again. But then again, nobody answered my calls either so I switched it off. guess I am either blessed or dumb enough to have found the sweet spot...:-) YMMV of course...that's a given. On 4 September 2013 08:40, r...@aol.com wrote: I agree with the posts that would like the K3 NR to be improved. I've used 3 different K3's at several different QTH's, using all of the available settings, and the NR seldom helped. That said, I've found the NR on some other radios to work very well, so it can be done. 73, Dick- K9OM In a message dated 9/3/2013 5:23:53 P.M. Central Daylight Time, elecraft-requ...@mailman.qth.net writes: I have to say that I agree with you Allen. If there's one thing I'm very disappointed with, it's the noise reduction system in general. In my experience the noise reduction, notch and AFP functions are not of any use to me as a CW op. On the other hand, the narrow filter is amazing. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html -- *Gary - VK1ZZ Skype: Gary.VK1ZZ http://www.qsl.net/vk1zz Motorhome Portable* *Grumpy's House* *Elecraft K3 KPA500FT KAT500FT** * __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 NR needs improvement
Eric You are correct from my experience over years of owning my k3 These comments arise from time to time and cause me to scratch my head and wonder why i am not hearing/seeing these issues too. Gary Vk1ZZ K3, KX3, KPA500-FT, KAT500-FT,P3. On 05/09/2013 2:34 PM, eric manning emann...@cs.uvic.ca wrote: I'm a CW op, I'm baffled by the comments critical of the K3 NR, APF and notch filter. The NR generally removes ALL random noise, meaning that the rcvr is silent in the absence of signals. Admittedly, It does get a little upset in the presence of many strong signals, so I usually turn it off in pileups. The notch filter can be tuned manually to silence one interfering CW signal. The APF is a bit tricky, you need to use fine tuning [ 3 digits after the VFO decimal point], tune SLOWWLLY and listen for the weak signal to pop out of the noise. But pop out it does. Eric VA7DZ -- BC is a prosperous, well-regulated place featuring Socialized Medicine, bilingual highway signs and Mounties. --Neal Stephenson, American novelist -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. __**__**__ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/**mailman/listinfo/elecrafthttp://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.**htmhttp://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:elecr...@mailman.qth.**net Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 NR Problem
Ken, Were you in a Data mode? NR is not applicable for data modes. 73, Don W3FPR On 8/5/2012 5:18 PM, Ken Lopez wrote: Greetings, I have recently gotten my K3 # 661 back from Elecraft where all updates were installed. Running 4.51. I tried to use Noise Reduction, and when pushing the NR button, I get N/A. When holding the NR button, I get N/A. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 NR Problem
Are you in data mode by chance? 73, ... Joe, W4TV On 8/5/2012 5:18 PM, Ken Lopez wrote: Greetings, I have recently gotten my K3 # 661 back from Elecraft where all updates were installed. Running 4.51. I tried to use Noise Reduction, and when pushing the NR button, I get N/A. When holding the NR button, I get N/A. I don't find any NR menu items for NR. Is there some way that the NR can be toggled off? Any ideas from the gang? 73, Ken N6TZV __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 NR Problem
AGC off? -Original Message- From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Ken Lopez Sent: Monday, 6 August 2012 7:18 AM To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: [Elecraft] K3 NR Problem Greetings, I have recently gotten my K3 # 661 back from Elecraft where all updates were installed. Running 4.51. I tried to use Noise Reduction, and when pushing the NR button, I get N/A. When holding the NR button, I get N/A. I don't find any NR menu items for NR. Is there some way that the NR can be toggled off? Any ideas from the gang? 73, Ken N6TZV __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 NR Problem
Don, No, that's the first thing I checked. In USB on 20M. Ken On Aug 5, 2012, at 2:29 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote: Ken, Were you in a Data mode? NR is not applicable for data modes. 73, Don W3FPR On 8/5/2012 5:18 PM, Ken Lopez wrote: Greetings, I have recently gotten my K3 # 661 back from Elecraft where all updates were installed. Running 4.51. I tried to use Noise Reduction, and when pushing the NR button, I get N/A. When holding the NR button, I get N/A. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 NR Problem SOLVED
Adrian and Jim, You nailed it! I hadn't noticed that the AGC was apparently turned off at the factory. I did hear a couple of big spikes of noise and went in to check AGC slope and other adjustments. I'm just spending so much time with the KX3 I've missed the obvious! Thanks folks! Ken N6TZV On Aug 5, 2012, at 2:47 PM, Adrian wrote: AGC off? -Original Message- From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Ken Lopez Sent: Monday, 6 August 2012 7:18 AM To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: [Elecraft] K3 NR Problem Greetings, I have recently gotten my K3 # 661 back from Elecraft where all updates were installed. Running 4.51. I tried to use Noise Reduction, and when pushing the NR button, I get N/A. When holding the NR button, I get N/A. I don't find any NR menu items for NR. Is there some way that the NR can be toggled off? Any ideas from the gang? 73, Ken N6TZV __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 NR Problem
Make sure the AGC is turned on. Rob NV5E From: kjlo...@earthlink.net Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2012 14:18:16 -0700 To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: [Elecraft] K3 NR Problem Greetings, I have recently gotten my K3 # 661 back from Elecraft where all updates were installed. Running 4.51. I tried to use Noise Reduction, and when pushing the NR button, I get N/A. When holding the NR button, I get N/A. I don't find any NR menu items for NR. Is there some way that the NR can be toggled off? Any ideas from the gang? 73, Ken N6TZV __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 NR Problem
Are you in Data mode? If so, try it in USB or CW. Rick K6LE On 8/5/2012, at 2:18 , Ken Lopez kjlo...@earthlink.net wrote: Greetings, I have recently gotten my K3 # 661 back from Elecraft where all updates were installed. Running 4.51. I tried to use Noise Reduction, and when pushing the NR button, I get N/A. When holding the NR button, I get N/A. I don't find any NR menu items for NR. Is there some way that the NR can be toggled off? Any ideas from the gang? 73, Ken N6TZV __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 NR in deversity mode
Dunno about minority. But that would be a useful option. I can see where someone might not want it on in diversity. On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 9:39 AM, Mike Scott m...@paxsen.com wrote: I know that independent Rx control of NR was added some time ago. It would be useful in Diversity mode if there was a way to adjust NR in both receivers simultaneously. Maybe I am in the minority here... Mike Scott - AE6WA Tarzana, CA (DM04 / near LA) NAQCC 3535 K3-100 #508 / KX1 #1311 __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 NR praise and question
On my task list. 73, Wayne N6KR On Oct 12, 2009, at 1:28 PM, Arie Kleingeld PA3A wrote: All, About the NR. YES, the new algorithms really work! I can even dig out the weak CW sigs better. Now my question. I use the first NR settings (1-1 to 4-4) in CW and the mixed ones for SSB. Switching mode from ssb to cw and back again means switching NR setting every time. I happen to switch modes a lot. Wouldn't it be nice if the NR setting was coupled to the mode? (some like the NB settings, they are saved per band) Or is there some menu-item to switch this on already? Thanks in advance. 73 Arie PA3A __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 NR info
Hector Thanks for taking the time to do those recordings for us. In a nutshell I would say that the noise reduction would greatly reduce my listening fatigue. In both ssb and cw the resulting audio is softened ie similar to reducing audio bandwidth. I prefer this effect to simply reducing IF bandwidth and IF shift which give that hollow sound and is less helpful with listening fatigue. I would say clarity on all the ssb signals is reduced slightly but I didn't miss anything comparing on to off. For long term listening the reduction in fatigue is worth having compared to a slight loss of clarity. On the 4th example, in which the incoming voice is rather bassy, his voice already lacks top for clarity, so a further reduction is undesirable and I would switch out the filter for him and similar muffled signals. The cw example was fb and very desirable reduction in listening fatigue. 73 David G3UNA Dear Jonathan,Robin,Ted,Art,David and Bud,the requested info about NR settings and MP3 files showing how well it works was sent to all of you. AD4C __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 NR
The main source of published research on real time noise reduction of audible signals seems to be the hearing aid industry. I just came across this article suggesting that hearing aid noise reduction strategies make people think that the noise is less sever, but don't actually make the signal any more intelligible. Trends in Amplification, Volume 10, No. 2, June 2006: Acceptance of Background Noise, Mueller et al. http://tia.sagepub.com/cgi/reprint/10/2/83.pdf Obviously being perceptually more desirable is good for marketing, which is largely based on feeling, rather than fact, and it may also be of value in that, over longer periods, reduced fatigue improves performance. In the hearing aid world, it increases compliance (the number of people who actually wear their aids). On the other hand, if anyone comes up with a algorithm that actually increases intelligibility in the cocktail party context, I think the hearing aid industry would love to know! -- David Woolley we do not overly restrict the subject matter on the list, and we encourage postings on a wide range of amateur radio related topics List Guidelines http://www.elecraft.com/elecraft_list_guidelines.htm __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 NR triggering
Just to reiterate my earlier posting, the next beta release of the K3 mcu/dsp code will have -BOTH- NR methods available. (Those from 3.25 and 3.27. ) You really -can- have it your way. :-) You will be able to scan though the same 16 3.27 settings as now, followed by the set of 16 3.25 style settings as you rotate the knob when setting NR level. Plus the last NR setting for CW and Voice modes will be saved independently. Who says we don't try harder in Aptos? ;-) 73, Eric Wayne Adams wrote: I agree with N6MQL, after working with 3.27 awhile now, 3.25 made CW better. I only have the 250Hz filter, and it doesn't do as well with NR as wide settings... and the wide filter setting makes the NR shine. It may even work better than 3.25 NR narrow overall, I don't know. ... Wayne/WA9VEE _..._ __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 NR
That is really very good reading, if highly technical. Helps to make a little index card with all the abbreviations used. One thing clearly suggested by the article is that immense efforts to tailor the K3 NR based upon complaints/praise, or measurable improvement of intelligibility, are, stated simply, doomed to failure absent a breakthrough invention in DNR that would make the patent holder rich. I'd just as soon see Lyle get rich as someone I don't know, so keep at it :) I have done some amount of testing on NR. My earlier conclusions, fuzzy compared to the article, are similar. For a weak CW signal in the noise, NR is more likely to DEGRADE intelligibility. The article attributes this kind of thing to a masking effect. NR makes listening to signals in noise more tolerable, until the signal becomes masked, then it gets in the way. Using NR, all signals will degrade vs. no NR at and below the masking point. Note that for contesting, these are the QSO's which make the winners. Those who can hear these difficult signals will get stuff others can't. There are similar issues with what some mistakenly call ringing. The narrow CW bandwidths in a noisy band situation will produce a constant narrow noise which competes for attention if the listener finds it irritating. It seems to be particularly irritating for those who tend to mentally demodulate the signal in a wide bandwidth. My own explanation for those who hear this way is that the wide bandwidth allows them TO IDENTIFY THE NOISE in their mind, assigning it a pseudo-diversity, ignore it and thus separate the CW. I surmise that for them, in the narrow situation, THE CW SOUNDS LIKE THE NOISE. Identifying the CW by throwing away the noise seems the case in diversity RX, where a fairly real sounding pseudo-spatial diversity spreads around non-discrete signals, but leaves the desired signal focused. Diversity RX is the only setup where narrow bandwidths have a way to spread the noise __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 NR
Typo. Tnx Don for picking that up. Yes, I mean NR. I like the way the NB works. I do see a reduction in audio when turning on the NR with SSB. As an example, I usually have the AF control around 9-9:30 position using an external speaker or my Heil headphones. When I turn on the NR I have to use around 10:30-11:00 position for the same audio. This is using F1-1. As I increase (Fx-y) X from one to 4 the audio level reduces. As I increase Y from one to 4 the audio level also decreases. So if I go to F4-4 I have to crank the AF control fully CW and I still am not at the audio level I was with the NR OFF and the AF control at 9:30. Also I can definitely pull out weak SSB signals better with the NR OFF. Right now the noise level is low, so not sure what impact that is having. With CW I do not need to change the AF level. I do like the way the NR works on CW. Typically I have the RF gain control fully CW or close to this position. When running I don't want to be fiddling with knobs or get my ears blown off. Both $1435 and #311 behave the same. I still like the Icom 756Pro III's NR better. I find I can leave the NR ON at a low level to just take the background noise away without causing issues or artifacts with received signals. Because of the varying comments on how the latest NR is behaving I am wondering if there are any other parameters, especially with the AGC that would account for these wide variations? Work in progress. 73, N2TK, Tony -Original Message- From: Don Wilhelm [mailto:w3...@embarqmail.com] Sent: Friday, August 28, 2009 7:48 PM To: N2TK Cc: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 NR Tony, Did you mean NR when you stated NB? I find no audio reduction when turning on the NB unless I have the IF NB cranked up to maximum. I first thought the new NR was reducing the audio, but I found it was not so when one is tuned to a signal. The noise reduction is so effective that in my case it almost behaves like a squelch because there is not band noise at all (my noise level is not usually very high anyway) - so there is a natural tendency to turn up the audio gain because there is no noise to hear - but when a signal is present, the audio is then LOUD. As I have stated in prior posts, I *do* find a bit of AF reduction on SSB if I have the NR set to F3-x or F4-x, but I find NR on SSB quite effective at the F1-x or F2-x settings. 73, Don W3FPR N2TK wrote: Also it would be nice if the audio didn't reduce in volume when turning on the NB. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 NR
I'm running 3.27/2.25 on K3 #569, mostly CW. No EQ, default AGC settings. The NR is so improved (for CW at least) with this version that for the first time I'm tempted to actually use it!. Normally I simply reduce DSP BW to overcome noise when working the weaker CW signals, but like to use a relatively wide BW when tuning around or copying the stronger signals. Yes, a filter is a filter but the NR artifacts are so minimal now that I can leave the BW at 800 Hz or so (I have the 1kHz roofing filter) and just turn on the NR ( I also like F1-3) if the band noise becomes too great. Give it a couple of seconds to converge and the noise vanishes yet all but the very weakest signals in the passband remain, with minimal distortion. Good work! Bob NW8L On Fri, Aug 28, 2009 at 5:26 PM, John E. Reiserreis...@optonline.net wrote: I'm running version 3.27/2.25 on K3 #384. I live in a high noise suburb of NYC. When I tap the NR button, the noise just about disappears, and the signal remains, SSB or CW. Magic! The difference is more noticeable on SSB, of course, because I usually have the pass band set to 500 Hz for CW. My favorite NR setting is F1-3. I seldom change from that setting anymore. I don't use EQ. I operate 90% CW and RTTY. When I do operate SSB, I'm not too concerned about audio frequency response. If I can understand what the other guy is saying, I conclude that I've got him tuned in OK. When I want hi-fi, I get out the IPod_ hi! But, don't be mad at me. That's just me. I respect all differing opinions. Maybe I'm just not as discerning as some folks. 73, John, W2GW __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 NR
Tony . Yeah, I couldn't have said it better about the NR as it is now - you nailed it. See what the next few DSP f/w's have! I had an IC 746 (not PRO) - the NR on it was great and it was just that - Noise Reduction, pure and simple. We took it to V47 about 6 years ago and it was almost as good as the K2/100 w/o the KDSP2. Wish I'd have never sold the 746! 73HankK8DD N2TK wrote: I do see a reduction in audio when turning on the NR with SSB. As an example, I usually have the AF control around 9-9:30 position using an external speaker or my Heil headphones. When I turn on the NR I have to use around 10:30-11:00 position for the same audio. This is using F1-1. As I increase (Fx-y) X from one to 4 the audio level reduces. As I increase Y from one to 4 the audio level also decreases. So if I go to F4-4 I have to crank the AF control fully CW and I still am not at the audio level I was with the NR OFF and the AF control at 9:30. Also I can definitely pull out weak SSB signals better with the NR OFF. Right now the noise level is low, so not sure what impact that is having. With CW I do not need to change the AF level. I do like the way the NR works on CW. Typically I have the RF gain control fully CW or close to this position. When running I don't want to be fiddling with knobs or get my ears blown off. Both $1435 and #311 behave the same. I still like the Icom 756Pro III's NR better. I find I can leave the NR ON at a low level to just take the background noise away without causing issues or artifacts with received signals. Because of the varying comments on how the latest NR is behaving I am wondering if there are any other parameters, especially with the AGC that would account for these wide variations? Work in progress. 73, N2TK, Tony __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 NR triggering
I may have misspoken. Re-reading my emails with Wayne and Lyle indicates the 'old' NR included in the next release (in addition to the current NR method) will be that of DSP 2.22, which I think is what you are referring to. :-) 73, Eric The Smiths wrote: Eric, No No no, I have been grossly misinterpreted. I never asked for a combination of 3.25 and 3.27. BOTH of these NR's are far from aggressive enough for my type of Noise floor and Narrow band CW work. Furthermore they take WAY too long to build the filters. What I was asking for was the OLD PRE 3.25 NR back, with a combination of the Newer 3.25 OR 3.27 for the SSB guys... What I would like to see, is at MINIMUM, the old PRE 3.25 setting # 2-3 come back so I can once again hear VERY reduced noise floor with ENHANCED cw tones for the weak DX stations. NOT a combination of the two newer less aggressive NR settings that do sl little for me. Man, I hate the telephone game. N6MQL _ Windows Live: Make it easier for your friends to see what you’re up to on Facebook. http://windowslive.com/Campaign/SocialNetworking?ocid=PID23285::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:SI_SB_facebook:082009 __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html -- _..._ __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 NR triggering
Man that will be a lot of settings but after reading all the posts I'd had exactly the same idea but just didn't post it. Having a little down time here after kayaking back from the neighbors on the other side of the bay for lunch. Figured I'd look in and catch up. I'm anxiously awaiting the ability to have all the NR options and the bass back! Ok now that I'm mostly caught up the phone goes back off before I accidentally click on the icon that brings up the work email. On 8/29/09, Eric Swartz -WA6HHQ, Elecraft e...@elecraft.com wrote: Just to reiterate my earlier posting, the next beta release of the K3 mcu/dsp code will have -BOTH- NR methods available. (Those from 3.25 and 3.27. ) You really -can- have it your way. :-) You will be able to scan though the same 16 3.27 settings as now, followed by the set of 16 3.25 style settings as you rotate the knob when setting NR level. Plus the last NR setting for CW and Voice modes will be saved independently. Who says we don't try harder in Aptos? ;-) 73, Eric Wayne Adams wrote: I agree with N6MQL, after working with 3.27 awhile now, 3.25 made CW better. I only have the 250Hz filter, and it doesn't do as well with NR as wide settings... and the wide filter setting makes the NR shine. It may even work better than 3.25 NR narrow overall, I don't know. ... Wayne/WA9VEE _..._ __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 NR triggering
Joe Planisky wrote: Some times you can't satisfy all the people all the time with one road. Truer words were never spoken! I'm a full time CW operator (well, 99.9% CW, 0.1% digital modes.) I played with the pre-3.25 NR quite a bit and I was never able to find a setting that made a CW signal easier to copy, so I never actually used it in a QSO. Post-3.25, I find I'm now using it more often than not. My preference would be for progress to continue in the 3.25/3.27 direction. Of course, ideally they'll come up with a way to let each operator use what works best for them. 73 -- Joe KB8AP I also operate mostly CW 3.27 isn't bad, but over the year or so I think the best DSP firmware was DSP 1.81 It was one of the better balances of audio level for NR on/off. And the CW signals came up out of the noise - or the noise went down. But . it doesn't work right anymore with the newer MCU FPF levels. That DSP is part of k3fw2r10.zip which I have labeled FD 08 in the folder with all the old firmware sets. 73HankK8DD FREE 3D EARTH SCREENSAVER - Watch the Earth right on your desktop! Check it out at http://www.inbox.com/earth __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 NR
Yeah, I agree with what you are saying. I like the NB on CW, but on SSB even at F1-1 it sounds somewhat like being in a tunnel. I would like to see a NB setting that is less aggressive and that doesn't change the audio as much. Also it would be nice if the audio didn't reduce in volume when turning on the NB. Will any of the AGC settings like SLP, THR, PLS, HLD, DCY have an impact on what SSB sounds like with the NB? N2TK, Tony -Original Message- From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Paul - WW2PT Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2009 1:17 PM To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 NR I found the NR in v3.25 to be excellent to my ears and a big improvement to previous versions, but I'm having a lot of trouble finding a NR setting with v3.27 that I'm comfortable with -- everything sounds like it's coming through a tunnel, even the x-1 settings. I generally prefer minimal DPS noise reduction for SSB and have rarely used the x-4 settings. I generally stuck to 4-1 or 4-2 in previous versions and rode the RF Gain to further reduce background noise when needed. Just can't find a happy setting with v3.27. It might sound OK on one signal but awful on another, resulting in far more dial tweaking than I usually like to do. RX EQ is flat as has been suggested, just doesn't help much. The tunnel effect is a bit less bothersome when using headphones, but I generally prefer using a pair of powered desktop speakers with AFX (Bin) turned on. Haven't tried NR in CW mode yet, my comments apply only to SSB. I've reverted to 3.25 and then back to 3.27 just to make sure I'm hearing what I think I'm hearing. I think I can live with the new NR settings, but sure would like to have them *in addition to* the 3.25 filters which were damn near perfect for my ears. Maybe some additional less aggressive NR settings (5-1 through 5-4, 6-1 through 6-4, etc.) will make everyone happy? Just more free advice... ;-) 73, Paul WW2PT Lyle Johnson wrote: The 3.27 NR F3-1 is *identical* to 3.25 NR F1-4. The 3.27 NR F3-2 is *identical* to 3.25 NR F2-4. The 3.27 NR F3-3 is *identical* to 3.25 NR F3-4. The 3.27 NR F3-4 is *identical* to 3.25 NR F4-4. The 3.27 NR F1- is lighter than the 3.25 NR. The 3.27 NR F2- is a little lighter than the 3.25 NR. The 3.27 NR F4- is heavier than the 3.25 NR. I am an SSB op, not a CW op, and the NR now works much better for me. -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/K3-NR-tp3515659p3518140.html Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 NR
I changed my audio equalizer from where it was and that makes a huge difference for me. I tried to remove some of the noise with the equalizer and that caused the sound to be very hollow. 73, Bill K9YEQ K2 #35; KX1 #35; K3 #1744; mini mods ATS-3B -Original Message- From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of N2TK Yeah, I agree with what you are saying. I like the NB on CW, but on SSB even at F1-1 it sounds somewhat like being in a tunnel. I would like to see a NB setting that is less aggressive and that doesn't change the audio as much. Also it would be nice if the audio didn't reduce in volume when turning on the NB. Will any of the AGC settings like SLP, THR, PLS, HLD, DCY have an impact on what SSB sounds like with the NB? N2TK, Tony __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 NR
I'm running version 3.27/2.25 on K3 #384. I live in a high noise suburb of NYC. When I tap the NR button, the noise just about disappears, and the signal remains, SSB or CW. Magic! The difference is more noticeable on SSB, of course, because I usually have the pass band set to 500 Hz for CW. My favorite NR setting is F1-3. I seldom change from that setting anymore. I don't use EQ. I operate 90% CW and RTTY. When I do operate SSB, I'm not too concerned about audio frequency response. If I can understand what the other guy is saying, I conclude that I've got him tuned in OK. When I want hi-fi, I get out the IPod_ hi! But, don't be mad at me. That's just me. I respect all differing opinions. Maybe I'm just not as discerning as some folks. 73, John, W2GW - Original Message - From: N2TK tony@verizon.net To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Sent: Friday, August 28, 2009 6:10 PM Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 NR Yeah, I agree with what you are saying. I like the NB on CW, but on SSB even at F1-1 it sounds somewhat like being in a tunnel. I would like to see a NB setting that is less aggressive and that doesn't change the audio as much. Also it would be nice if the audio didn't reduce in volume when turning on the NB. Will any of the AGC settings like SLP, THR, PLS, HLD, DCY have an impact on what SSB sounds like with the NB? N2TK, Tony -Original Message- From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Paul - WW2PT Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2009 1:17 PM To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 NR I found the NR in v3.25 to be excellent to my ears and a big improvement to previous versions, but I'm having a lot of trouble finding a NR setting with v3.27 that I'm comfortable with -- everything sounds like it's coming through a tunnel, even the x-1 settings. I generally prefer minimal DPS noise reduction for SSB and have rarely used the x-4 settings. I generally stuck to 4-1 or 4-2 in previous versions and rode the RF Gain to further reduce background noise when needed. Just can't find a happy setting with v3.27. It might sound OK on one signal but awful on another, resulting in far more dial tweaking than I usually like to do. RX EQ is flat as has been suggested, just doesn't help much. The tunnel effect is a bit less bothersome when using headphones, but I generally prefer using a pair of powered desktop speakers with AFX (Bin) turned on. Haven't tried NR in CW mode yet, my comments apply only to SSB. I've reverted to 3.25 and then back to 3.27 just to make sure I'm hearing what I think I'm hearing. I think I can live with the new NR settings, but sure would like to have them *in addition to* the 3.25 filters which were damn near perfect for my ears. Maybe some additional less aggressive NR settings (5-1 through 5-4, 6-1 through 6-4, etc.) will make everyone happy? Just more free advice... ;-) 73, Paul WW2PT Lyle Johnson wrote: The 3.27 NR F3-1 is *identical* to 3.25 NR F1-4. The 3.27 NR F3-2 is *identical* to 3.25 NR F2-4. The 3.27 NR F3-3 is *identical* to 3.25 NR F3-4. The 3.27 NR F3-4 is *identical* to 3.25 NR F4-4. The 3.27 NR F1- is lighter than the 3.25 NR. The 3.27 NR F2- is a little lighter than the 3.25 NR. The 3.27 NR F4- is heavier than the 3.25 NR. I am an SSB op, not a CW op, and the NR now works much better for me. -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/K3-NR-tp3515659p3518140.html Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 NR
Tony, Did you mean NR when you stated NB? I find no audio reduction when turning on the NB unless I have the IF NB cranked up to maximum. I first thought the new NR was reducing the audio, but I found it was not so when one is tuned to a signal. The noise reduction is so effective that in my case it almost behaves like a squelch because there is not band noise at all (my noise level is not usually very high anyway) - so there is a natural tendency to turn up the audio gain because there is no noise to hear - but when a signal is present, the audio is then LOUD. As I have stated in prior posts, I *do* find a bit of AF reduction on SSB if I have the NR set to F3-x or F4-x, but I find NR on SSB quite effective at the F1-x or F2-x settings. 73, Don W3FPR N2TK wrote: Also it would be nice if the audio didn't reduce in volume when turning on the NB. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 NR in Ver 3.27
Do you have any RX EQ on? Is this CW or SSB? What bandwidth are you operating at? Have you tried with AFX on and off? Plenty of audio here. 73 Ian On 27 Aug 2009, at 27August13:00, Barry Simpson wrote: I have just installed 3.27 and the NR is a disaster. On turning it on there is virtually no AF output even at maximum AF gain setting. I have turned the K3 off and on but to no avail. Also there are big birdies on 40m (I haven't checked any other bands) which I am sure were not there before I upgraded from 3.25. Has anyone any ideas . If not it looks as if I will need to go back to 3.25. Barry VK2BJ __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html -- Ian J Maude, G0VGS SysOp GB7MBC HB9DRV-9 DX Clusters Member RSGB, GQRP 9838, FISTS 14077 | K3 #455 http://www.amateurradiotraining.org __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 NR triggering
I also seem to get the impression that the selected NR setting is not exacty the same as the selected level within in the menu versus turning the DSP NR on and off without entering the menu, if that makes sense. The NR is an adaptive filter. When you turn it off, it is completely reset: all buffers are flushed and filter coefficients zeroed. When you move from setting to setting with the NR adjust feature, the buffers are not flushed nor are the coefficients reset. Instead, the new settings are applied to the current state of the filter. So, it takes from a few tens of milliseconds to perhaps a couple of seconds for the filter to adapt to the new settings. 73, Lyle KK7P __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 NR in Ver 3.27
I have just installed 3.27 and the NR is a disaster. On turning it on there is virtually no AF output even at maximum AF gain setting. I have turned the K3 off and on but to no avail. Were you tuned to a signal at the time, or just band noise? If just noise, then the NR was doing its job. Please start with setting F1-1. This is the lightest NR action. 73, Lyle KK7P __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 NR triggering
Lyle: Maybe a quick lesson on proper use of the NR filter would help us. Thinks likeIf F1-1 doesn't work, do we go to F1-2 or F2-1 or should we skip a few F's. Should we turn NR off then back on every time we make a change? Does changing NR settings while receiving a cw signal matter or should one change settings with no signal? I guess I got spoiled by the IC-7800's NR. With it, you just turn it on and the noise disappeared. Steve N4LQ n...@carolina.rr.com - Original Message - From: Lyle Johnson k...@wavecable.com To: Craig vk...@yahoo.com Cc: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2009 9:10 AM Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 NR triggering I also seem to get the impression that the selected NR setting is not exacty the same as the selected level within in the menu versus turning the DSP NR on and off without entering the menu, if that makes sense. The NR is an adaptive filter. When you turn it off, it is completely reset: all buffers are flushed and filter coefficients zeroed. When you move from setting to setting with the NR adjust feature, the buffers are not flushed nor are the coefficients reset. Instead, the new settings are applied to the current state of the filter. So, it takes from a few tens of milliseconds to perhaps a couple of seconds for the filter to adapt to the new settings. 73, Lyle KK7P __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 NR in Ver 3.27
I operate a lot on CW nets, with the b/w set to 700Hz, no EQ, AFX on, and use the NR to increase the apparent S/N ratio, and also to soften the effect of band noise on the ears. Before v3.25, this was frustrating because the NR took appreciable time to build the filter, and appeared to do so on each code element; the overall effect was to make the code sound mushy and harder to copy. Then v3.25 came along, and it made a big improvement. The mushiness was gone and by experimenting with the various settings, I could find a sweet point where the filters were not too aggressive and yet an appreciable improvement in copy was obtained. With v3.27, the filtering became even more focussed and this morning I used a 3-3 setting to pull weaker stations out of the noise on 40m, which was having one of it's less stellar days. I think the guys at Aptos are definitely going in the right direction, especially for the CW side of things. I've tried the NR on a couple of SSB nets, but there the improvement was less easy to pick out -- though I think it IS an improvement when you find the correct setting. Not a scientific review, just very subjective $.02 worth. 73, Van W1WCG __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 NR triggering
Thinks likeIf F1-1 doesn't work, do we go to F1-2 or F2-1 or should we skip a few F's. Depends on the noise, the signal, the levels and the nature of the artifacts of NR you best tolerate. F1-x builds sharper filters, while F4-x typically has more attenuation... Should we turn NR off then back on every time we make a change? It usually won't adapt any faster if you do. Does changing NR settings while receiving a cw signal matter or should one change settings with no signal? Since you are trying to maximize the intelligibility of the signal, I'd only adjust it if there is a signal. I normally leave mine at F1-1 unless there is a good reason to change it. But that is for my antenna (3 element SteppIR), noise level (rural), band (20m daytime), mode (SSB), AGC settings (default THR and SLP) and typical signals (weak to moderate) I encounter here. 73, Lyle KK7P __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 NR (what is the equiv to F3-1 from 3.25?)
hi... i'm one of the folks who is less happy with the 3.27 implementation of NR than the 3.25. i've been trying to do a 'scientific' comparison of the two, so i can record the audio and upload for others to hear/analyze (non trivial since band conditions and QSO's don't seem to last between loading of the FW) in any event, i'm listening right now to an LSB QSO on 7.182.50. receive EQ is totally flat, noise level here is about an S5. using 3.25, if i set the NR to F3-1, the noise drops down by about 50-75% and the audio peaks up (sharper/more intelligable) about 25% i then load 3.27 but can't find any settings that are similar... even F1-1 gives me a distinct ringing/echo (echo is not quite right... its more like the old spring reverb's of my youth!)... i think that F1-3 should at least match the taps of 3.25, but can i completely replicate the filter response of 3.25's F3-1? btw, i know there's a fair bit of multi-variable confusion and well, it works fine here, which is to be expected in beta testing... but given that (even with the small sample of this thread) folks seem to 'clump' into the two camps of works great and say what? i'm wondering if there's something else at play here? another bit of code that's specific to production run variation, or a change in the underlying DSP circuitry/programming during the life of the K3? lyle, is there, perhaps, a chart/form you could suggest for testing with some instructions (ie, make receive bandwidth flat, for SSB 40m, adjust bw/passband/etc., serial no of K3, etc?)... then those of us interested in more rigorous testing can provide some kind of unified feedback? i'm a beta tester for some other hw/sw consumer products and the reporting requirements usually establish a baseline so the engineers can look for patterns. (oh, and THANKS for all the hard work... if this were easy it wouldn't be half as much fun!) 73 robin (K9RDG) __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 NR (what is the equiv to F3-1 from 3.25?)
I thought Lyle's email quoted below was very helpful: The way the new beta NR works is: Fx-y selects the length of the filter. F1 = 121 taps, F2 = 91 taps, F3 = 61 taps, F4 = 31 taps (The Beta 3.25 release used FIR filters of 61 taps.) y selects values of Beta (gain), decay, and delay (how long the NR algorithm waits to process a signal) (The Beta 3.5 release used the x parameter for these selections) 73, Lyle KK7P 73, Bill K9YEQ K2 #35; KX1 #35; K3 #1744; mini mods ATS-3B __ __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 NR
I loaded bata 3.27 yesterday have played with it on cw and ssb so far I like what I hear the NR is more to my liking adding the AFX is a nice touch to get the audio to pop out a bit. The bands are not the best here for me using a Hy Tower vertical as the only HF antenna I would say that 3.27 is an over all improvement so far as I see and hear it. Regards Art ka9zap Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ, Elecraft wrote: Hi Gary, Please remember that this is a -beta test- release and not a formal final K3 f/w release. The purpose of any beta test release is to test new features and gather constructive feedback. It is not something you should be using to form a final judgment or complain loudly about, sine we certainly will react to feedback on it and respond with follow on releases. That's the whole point of releasing a beta test release before making it final. It gives us real feedback from a much broader swath of users than we ever could get in the lab. Also, have no fear, we are working to provide the best NR out there for BOTH SSB and CW ops. That's why we are experimenting with it in these beta test releases. Stay tuned! And thanks to everyone for the constructive feedback. We really appreciate it. 73, Eric rfenab...@gmail.com wrote: Well the SSB folks lose out yet again on the latest FW revision. Just when the next to useless NR was made to work we have yet another version that favours one mode over others. Rather disappointing result but that appears to be the way of the k3 world at times. Great radio for some but so great for others perhaps..:-( Don't know could be a replacement but the search has started. Gary VK4WT __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 NR
Lyle, Is the noise reduction more or less aggressive with a larger number of taps (length) of the filter? 73, ... Joe, W4TV -Original Message- From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Lyle Johnson Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2009 4:23 PM To: Bob Cunnings Cc: Elecraft Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 NR ...For now I'll treat the parameter as an opaque series of magic numbers. The way the new beta NR works is: Fx-y x selects the length of the filter. F1 = 121 taps, F2 = 91 taps, F3 = 61 taps, F4 = 31 taps (The Beta 3.25 release used FIR filters of 61 taps.) y selects values of Beta (gain), decay, and delay (how long the NR algorithm waits to process a signal) (The Beta 3.5 release used the x parameter for these selections) 73, Lyle KK7P __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 NR
Is the noise reduction more or less aggressive with a larger number of taps (length) of the filter? It is less aggressive with more taps. There is also a different coloring of the audio. 73, Lyle KK7P __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 NR (what is the equiv to F3-1 from 3.25?)
hi... thanks for the reply... yes, i read lyle's description of the two filters, which is how i knew that the 3.25 filters all had an FIR of 61 taps... what i'm looking for (in order do to an honest A:B comparison between 3.25 and 3.27 on my rig) is what Fx-y on 3.27 would most closely match the F3-1 configuration of 3.25 73 robin (K9RDG) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2009 10:18:54 -0500 From: Bill k9...@live.com Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 NR (what is the equiv to F3-1 from 3.25?) To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net I thought Lyle's email quoted below was very helpful: The way the new beta NR works is: Fx-y selects the length of the filter. F1 = 121 taps, F2 = 91 taps, F3 = 61 taps, F4 = 31 taps (The Beta 3.25 release used FIR filters of 61 taps.) y selects values of Beta (gain), decay, and delay (how long the NR algorithm waits to process a signal) (The Beta 3.5 release used the x parameter for these selections) 73, Lyle KK7P 73, Bill K9YEQ K2 #35; KX1 #35; K3 #1744; mini mods ATS-3B __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 NR triggering
FWIW, I strongly agree with N6MQL's suggestion. Bill W5WVO The Smiths (N6MQL) wrote: Instead of trying to find a single NR DSP that would satisfy both groups, which seems near impossible to do. Wouldn't it be best to implement some way to have the OLD NR on CW mode, and then perhaps something like 3.25 or 3.27 on SSB mode? This way the CW guys, like myself, can enjoy the serious filter ability of the old NR, and the SSB guys can enjoy the pipeless artifacts when using NR in SSB mode. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 NR triggering
Some times you can't satisfy all the people all the time with one road. Truer words were never spoken! I'm a full time CW operator (well, 99.9% CW, 0.1% digital modes.) I played with the pre-3.25 NR quite a bit and I was never able to find a setting that made a CW signal easier to copy, so I never actually used it in a QSO. Post-3.25, I find I'm now using it more often than not. My preference would be for progress to continue in the 3.25/3.27 direction. Of course, ideally they'll come up with a way to let each operator use what works best for them. 73 -- Joe KB8AP On Aug 27, 2009, at 11:18 AM, The Smiths wrote: It's become obvious to me that the most of the full time CW ops on the reflector were very happy with the fast responding, instant changing, very aggressive filters on the Pre 3.25 NR. So long as you didn't choose a filter that was too aggressive for your needs, I never found that I cut out any CW tones. As matter of fact, I found that with the old NR I was able to actually Enhance CW tones. I DO NOT find this to be the case with either 3.25, or 3.27. Without an Audio peak filter on the K3, I much prefer what I had previously. As a late night, high QRM 30meter DXer I find that I enjoyed the ability to switch between filter groups and hear the results instantaneously. Unlike SSB where you can wait that extra second, on CW, every dit and dah counts. Instead of trying to find a single NR DSP that would satisfy both groups, which seems near impossible to do. Wouldn't it be best to implement some way to have the OLD NR on CW mode, and then perhaps something like 3.25 or 3.27 on SSB mode? This way the CW guys, like myself, can enjoy the serious filter ability of the old NR, and the SSB guys can enjoy the pipeless artifacts when using NR in SSB mode. Some times you can't satisfy all the people all the time with one road. But you can send them in different directions and try to help them both at the same time. N6MQL __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 NR - Audio Artifact on Button Press F1-x (Beta 3.27)
ok... this is something that other folks can absolutely test (grin) i have audio feedback (button beeps) turned on in my K3 and i've been playing with the 3.25 and 3.27 beta's i just noticed that with 3.27 that when i either 'turn on' or 'turn off' (momentary press) or long-press the NR button and the filter is set to either F1-1, F1-2, F1-3 or F1-4, the button beep is not a clean beep sound (sine wave?) but a little 'dirty' like there are some overtone/harmonics mixed in... you can possibly hear this through the speak, if you have great hearing, but it is very obvious with headphones (i'm using the sony mdr-v6) if you set the filter to F2-x, or F3-x, then the beep is perfectly clean and sweet (like a stravinsky concerto!) extra wrinkle... i have NB off but had NOTCH set to auto... turning the notch filter off or to manual seems to 'change' this behaviour, but not in a predictable way... with the notch filter off the button beeps are clean (i think) but sometimes turning the notch back on makes the beeps dirty again, and sometimes not... wish i could be more clear. btw, i'm doing all this testing with the audio level down to zero, listening through phones to just the beeps (yah, sometimes that's safer than trying to call CQ) some kind of interaction in the DSP between the NR code and NOTCH code? wondering if anyone else can repeat this and, if so, are you having success with the new 3.27 NR modes in SSB? many thanks to anyone who can do this test! 73 robin (K9RDG) __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 NR triggering
I would like to still see some kind of APF filter to peak up weak cw, I'm still always looking for more volume or gain against the noise floor. For me its hard to compare something from a couple of months ago to what I have now in firmware but for the impressions or notes taken back with other firmware set ups, with varying band conditions I really can't tell unless you had two radios side by side to compare in real time both on the same antenna at the same time with no a/b switching. Out of 4 cw attempts at my daily cw fix only one had enough level of volume s/n that was a comfortable arm chair copy, another fellow K3 owner at a camp ground in Mo. I would go for the dual firmware one for CW and the other for SSB also, 3.27 does well on SSB with the audio response, so far I like it a lot. Regards Art ka9zap Some times you can't satisfy all the people all the time with one road. Truer words were never spoken! I'm a full time CW operator (well, 99.9% CW, 0.1% digital modes.) I played with the pre-3.25 NR quite a bit and I was never able to find a setting that made a CW signal easier to copy, so I never actually used it in a QSO. Post-3.25, I find I'm now using it more often than not. My preference would be for progress to continue in the 3.25/3.27 direction. Of course, ideally they'll come up with a way to let each operator use what works best for them. 73 -- Joe KB8AP On Aug 27, 2009, at 11:18 AM, The Smiths wrote: It's become obvious to me that the most of the full time CW ops on the reflector were very happy with the fast responding, instant changing, very aggressive filters on the Pre 3.25 NR. So long as you didn't choose a filter that was too aggressive for your needs, I never found that I cut out any CW tones. As matter of fact, I found that with the old NR I was able to actually Enhance CW tones. I DO NOT find this to be the case with either 3.25, or 3.27. Without an Audio peak filter on the K3, I much prefer what I had previously. As a late night, high QRM 30meter DXer I find that I enjoyed the ability to switch between filter groups and hear the results instantaneously. Unlike SSB where you can wait that extra second, on CW, every dit and dah counts. Instead of trying to find a single NR DSP that would satisfy both groups, which seems near impossible to do. Wouldn't it be best to implement some way to have the OLD NR on CW mode, and then perhaps something like 3.25 or 3.27 on SSB mode? This way the CW guys, like myself, can enjoy the serious filter ability of the old NR, and the SSB guys can enjoy the pipeless artifacts when using NR in SSB mode. Some times you can't satisfy all the people all the time with one road. But you can send them in different directions and try to help them both at the same time. N6MQL __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 NR triggering
Joe and all, As I understand the changes, in the pre-3.27 NR situation, there were audio peaks in the response envelope - so it worked very well (similar to an APF) for some who used a CW pitch near the peaks, but there were others who used other sidetone pitches and they were not happy with the CW NR at all. The peaking in the response made SSB NR unusable for me, but now it enhances the signal while getting rid of the noise - Yes, I hear a bit of 'hollowness', but that is acceptable to me - at least I can hear and understand SSB signals down near the noise level. The key to finding the right NR settings is to adjust them while listening to a signal - if there is no signal, any of the NR settings can reduce the noise, but it may not be a setting that is suitable for the band conditions, antenna, noise type or signal strength. With 3.27 on 20 meters at my location, I use F1-x through F2-4 on SSB, but the F3-x and F4-x give me some signal attenuation - many CW operators have reported that F3-x and F4-x work well for them on CW. Experiment with it a bit, but do it while listening to the weakest signal that you wish to hear, and you should be able to find what will work best for you under those band and noise conditions. 73, Don W3FPR Joe Planisky wrote: Some times you can't satisfy all the people all the time with one road. Truer words were never spoken! I'm a full time CW operator (well, 99.9% CW, 0.1% digital modes.) I played with the pre-3.25 NR quite a bit and I was never able to find a setting that made a CW signal easier to copy, so I never actually used it in a QSO. Post-3.25, I find I'm now using it more often than not. My preference would be for progress to continue in the 3.25/3.27 direction. Of course, ideally they'll come up with a way to let each operator use what works best for them. 73 -- Joe KB8AP __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 NR
Sorry guys but I have to disagree. Finally the noise reduction is usable for SSB :) Absolutely brilliant! Thanks guys. I wonder if those who are having problems are running any RX EQ? I run none at all and find I don't need to. 73 Ian On 26 Aug 2009, at 26August04:54, Don Rasmussen wrote: This is where I jump off the firmware updates train. I have version 3.10 doing everything the way I like it, and can rotate in 120 watts of power when I need to. I am smart enough not to overheat. I always thought I would stay current with the FW, but too many things have gone sideways with respect to my tastes - it would take something truly major to have me upgrade FW in K3 again. Others may feel the progression is going in their direction - that's a problem with a product that comes so close to doing everything perfectly for everyone. [Elecraft] K3 NR rfenabled at gmail.com rfenabled at gmail.com Tue Aug 25 22:58:37 EDT 2009 Previous message: [Elecraft] FS: W5JH Black Widow Paddle Next message: [Elecraft] K3 NR Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] Well the SSB folks lose out yet again on the latest FW revision. Just when the next to useless NR was made to work we have yet another version that favours one mode over others. Rather disappointing result but that appears to be the way of the k3 world at times. Great radio for some but so great for others perhaps..:-( Don't know could be a replacement but the search has started. Gary VK4WT Sent via BlackBerry® from Telstra __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html -- Ian J Maude, G0VGS SysOp GB7MBC HB9DRV-9 DX Clusters Member RSGB, GQRP 9838, FISTS 14077 | K3 #455 http://www.amateurradiotraining.org __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 NR
I have just uploaded the latest FW and agree that it is an improvement. I have done some listening on 80 and 40m, both SSB and CW, and believe it is the best NR I have tried so far. Andy VK4KY *** Ian Maude wrote: Sorry guys but I have to disagree. Finally the noise reduction is usable for SSB :) Absolutely brilliant! Thanks guys. I wonder if those who are having problems are running any RX EQ? I run none at all and find I don't need to. 73 Ian On 26 Aug 2009, at 26August04:54, Don Rasmussen wrote: This is where I jump off the firmware updates train. I have version 3.10 doing everything the way I like it, and can rotate in 120 watts of power when I need to. I am smart enough not to overheat. I always thought I would stay current with the FW, but too many things have gone sideways with respect to my tastes - it would take something truly major to have me upgrade FW in K3 again. Others may feel the progression is going in their direction - that's a problem with a product that comes so close to doing everything perfectly for everyone. [Elecraft] K3 NR rfenabled at gmail.com rfenabled at gmail.com Tue Aug 25 22:58:37 EDT 2009 Previous message: [Elecraft] FS: W5JH Black Widow Paddle Next message: [Elecraft] K3 NR Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] Well the SSB folks lose out yet again on the latest FW revision. Just when the next to useless NR was made to work we have yet another version that favours one mode over others. Rather disappointing result but that appears to be the way of the k3 world at times. Great radio for some but so great for others perhaps..:-( Don't know could be a replacement but the search has started. Gary VK4WT Sent via BlackBerry® from Telstra __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html -- Ian J Maude, G0VGS SysOp GB7MBC HB9DRV-9 DX Clusters Member RSGB, GQRP 9838, FISTS 14077 | K3 #455 http://www.amateurradiotraining.org __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 NR
Agreed setting the BW a bit wider than needed helps the filter out it seems but even at very narrow widths it does help. I was just operating in CW a lil bit ago and a station ended its QSO dit dit and then the rig went silent. I turned up the volume a bit and man there was nothing... Oh yea I've got NR turned on. Click and poof oh ok the band is back... Then I thought hrm... What if I tune the band in that condition. It almost felt as though I was simply changing frequency with the volume set to minimum but as I tuned across stations they just cranked up to the volume you'd expect... But the noise was just gone. About the only time you could hear any sort of noise at all was if the station was close to the noise floor... ~Brett On Wed, 2009-08-26 at 12:00 +0200, Deni wrote: I have never been too fond of DSP NR in any rig but this latest from Elecraft really is impressive. NR is absolutely amazing on CW and very very good on SSB. If you have any doubts just try it. Listen to CW in a wider bandwidth than you would normally (just to try it), Say 1kHz, then engage a NR setting of choice, it works!! I listen a LOT to very weak signals and this version of NR is the best so far. Also just completed the latest hardware mods, so all in all very happy, thanks guys. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 NR
Agreed! Mine were setup for CW (and they were setup for the excitement that was actually having low frequency in 3.24!!!) Can't wait for that to come back! ~Brett On Wed, Aug 26, 2009 at 4:13 AM, rfenab...@gmail.com wrote: Well, I tried again with RX Eq set flat and the NR functions as I always imagined it should. I will spend more time trying each setting and see if I can find a setting that works well. At this point it would appear as though my RX EQ settings were not compatible with the NR as I had it setnow back to the fun Gary VK4WT/P Sent via BlackBerry® from Telstra __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 NR
Lee, I thought that was what the 16 possible NR settings were for - I find that F1-x and F2-x are the best for SSB and while that also works for CW, the F3-x and F4-x settings are more aggressive but are also effective for CW. Your ears may be different than mine, but that is what I hear. 73, Don W3FPR Lee Trout wrote: Many radios have dual mode NR, one for SSB and one for CW, etc. I wonder if this is possible with the K3? Lee, K9CM __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 NR
Lyle, Your post below indicating how the F3 NR settings have been re-ordered in the new f/w reminds me of something I brought up earlier: When NR ADJ is on, the VFO-A knob has no function. Could I suggest that it be used to step through the NR settings in this sequence: F1-1, F2-1, F3-1, F4-1 F1-2, F2-2, F3-2, F4-2, etc. This sequence is orthogonal to the current VFO-B sequence: F1-1, F1-2, F1-3, etc. Having both would make it a lot easier to compare the different NR settings and find the optimum one. Also, is there any reason why when AGC is OFF and the NR button is subsequently pushed it does not just automatically switch on the AGC instead of flashing N/A on the display? That is pretty annoying to those of us who frequently switch between AGC OFF and ON (and who can't remember which state it is in whey we reach for the NR). BTW, the NR works just fine for this typically wide-bw CW user... 73, Drew AF2Z On Tue, 25 Aug 2009 20:40:50 -0700, Lyle KK7P wrote: Well the SSB folks lose out yet again on the latest FW revision. Just when the next to useless NR was made to work we have yet another version that favours one mode over others. The 3.27 NR F3-1 is *identical* to 3.25 NR F1-4. The 3.27 NR F3-2 is *identical* to 3.25 NR F2-4. The 3.27 NR F3-3 is *identical* to 3.25 NR F3-4. The 3.27 NR F3-4 is *identical* to 3.25 NR F4-4. The 3.27 NR F1- is lighter than the 3.25 NR. The 3.27 NR F2- is a little lighter than the 3.25 NR. The 3.27 NR F4- is heavier than the 3.25 NR. I am an SSB op, not a CW op, and the NR now works much better for me. There were some changes we had to make from 3.25 (and previous releases as well) in the Fx-1, -2 and -3 settings which resulted in scolloping of the passband. Some CW ops at certain pitches thought it gave their signals a boost, others at other pitches really bemoaned the attenuation. While less noticeable on SSB, it was there nonetheless. 73, Lyle KK7P (aka Not Sleeping Mt Vernon) __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 NR
Ian,I am with you,it works outstanding now,I don't even lose the audio as other said,it drops a liitle bid but still is confortable to my ears but the noise is totally GONE ! About the low end roll-off on version 3.25 was at 30 Hz,now with 3.27 is at 60Hz,who needs to hear that low? besides do your speaker respond to 30Hz,besides does anyone on ESSB respond that low? so 60 Hz is ok with me.73 to all AD4C The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits.. -- Albert Einstein --- On Wed, 8/26/09, Ian Maude i...@gb7mbc.net wrote: From: Ian Maude i...@gb7mbc.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 NR To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Date: Wednesday, August 26, 2009, 8:05 AM Sorry guys but I have to disagree. Finally the noise reduction is usable for SSB :) Absolutely brilliant! Thanks guys. I wonder if those who are having problems are running any RX EQ? I run none at all and find I don't need to. 73 Ian On 26 Aug 2009, at 26August04:54, Don Rasmussen wrote: This is where I jump off the firmware updates train. I have version 3.10 doing everything the way I like it, and can rotate in 120 watts of power when I need to. I am smart enough not to overheat. I always thought I would stay current with the FW, but too many things have gone sideways with respect to my tastes - it would take something truly major to have me upgrade FW in K3 again. Others may feel the progression is going in their direction - that's a problem with a product that comes so close to doing everything perfectly for everyone. [Elecraft] K3 NR rfenabled at gmail.com rfenabled at gmail.com Tue Aug 25 22:58:37 EDT 2009 Previous message: [Elecraft] FS: W5JH Black Widow Paddle Next message: [Elecraft] K3 NR Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] Well the SSB folks lose out yet again on the latest FW revision. Just when the next to useless NR was made to work we have yet another version that favours one mode over others. Rather disappointing result but that appears to be the way of the k3 world at times. Great radio for some but so great for others perhaps..:-( Don't know could be a replacement but the search has started. Gary VK4WT Sent via BlackBerry® from Telstra __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html -- Ian J Maude, G0VGS SysOp GB7MBC HB9DRV-9 DX Clusters Member RSGB, GQRP 9838, FISTS 14077 | K3 #455 http://www.amateurradiotraining.org __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 NR
About the low end roll-off on version 3.25 was at 30 Hz,now with 3.27 is at 60Hz,who needs to hear that low? besides do your speaker respond to 30Hz,besides does anyone on ESSB respond that low? so 60 Hz is ok with me.73 to all The low frequency issue reported here is primarily related to CW, not SSB. As an example of its importance, I worked a 4S7 station last night on 40m. As his gray-line was shifting away, his already weak signal was fading even further. Using F/W 3.25, I was able to copy him with an extremely low pitch of about 50 Hz. The use of extremely low pitch for marginal CW copy is pretty well known among top DXers. There's absolutely no way I would have worked he 4S7 using F/W 3.27. Paul, W9AC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 NR
That's really interesting Paul. Were you also using very narrow passband and other rx eq filtering? Was he sending QRS? David G3UNA The low frequency issue reported here is primarily related to CW, not SSB. As an example of its importance, I worked a 4S7 station last night on 40m. As his gray-line was shifting away, his already weak signal was fading even further. Using F/W 3.25, I was able to copy him with an extremely low pitch of about 50 Hz. The use of extremely low pitch for marginal CW copy is pretty well known among top DXers. There's absolutely no way I would have worked he 4S7 using F/W 3.27. Paul, W9AC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 NR
That's really interesting Paul. Were you also using very narrow passband and other rx eq filtering? Was he sending QRS? I started with a wide passband, then shifted to a narrow passband with Dual PB enabled. That has worked well for me in the past. I then went back to the 2.8K filter since the 4S7 was not working split and nearby interference was minimum, owing to long propagation. Most U.S. stations were quite weak at the time. With the 2.8K filter and using F/W 3.25, by far the best copy was obtained with a very low pitch setting. The ultra-low pitch is lost with the narrower roofing filters (as expected). If he was working split only 1-2 kHz up, then the story may have been different. Until 3.25, this was not possible in CW mode using any filter, although possible when transmitting CW in SSB mode -- but that presents other operating issues (e.g., frequency display error by the offset amount). No doubt the Elecraft guys will take care of it soon. Paul, W9AC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 NR and RX EQ
Hello Lexa, Seems like a legitimate question. Prior to 3.25, NR settings and its ability to reduce noise were greatly affected by EQ settings. For example, boosting midrange frequencies to enhance voice audio caused the NR algorithm to produce very hollow sounding voices; as if listening to someone yell through a long drain pipe. It could also cause clipping or distortion if EQ settings were over-boosted in certain ranges. Also, it wasn't just the EQ that affected NR quality, but also the AGC settings. I haven't had much time to play with 3.27 (just installed last night), but so far, all of my testing has been done with AGC being left at one setting, and EQ flat. This way, I can determine how effective the noise reduction really is with the same set of operating variables. It's sort of a moot point now that I think about it, to ask how people feel the NR has improved or degraded if everyone has different EQ and AGC settings; it will be difficult or impossible to get a consistent answer throughout the test group. 73 de James K2QI On Wed, Aug 26, 2009 at 9:26 AM, Alexandr Kobranov kobra...@amoscz.czwrote: Can everybody reporting about NR excellent/non-excellent functionality add some info about his/her RX EQ settings and BW used? I suppose there are big confusions in reports based on different settings. Maybe - later, later, not now :-) - can be some RX EQ forced in NR mode to avoid problems etc... The same with NR setting per-mode etc. But for now, please let us know your RX EQ settings and BW used while reporting NR experience. Or am I wrong with such request? 73! Lexa, ok1dst K3/10 #727 __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html -- 73 de James K2QI __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 NR
Hi Gary, Please remember that this is a -beta test- release and not a formal final K3 f/w release. The purpose of any beta test release is to test new features and gather constructive feedback. It is not something you should be using to form a final judgment or complain loudly about, sine we certainly will react to feedback on it and respond with follow on releases. That's the whole point of releasing a beta test release before making it final. It gives us real feedback from a much broader swath of users than we ever could get in the lab. Also, have no fear, we are working to provide the best NR out there for BOTH SSB and CW ops. That's why we are experimenting with it in these beta test releases. Stay tuned! And thanks to everyone for the constructive feedback. We really appreciate it. 73, Eric rfenab...@gmail.com wrote: Well the SSB folks lose out yet again on the latest FW revision. Just when the next to useless NR was made to work we have yet another version that favours one mode over others. Rather disappointing result but that appears to be the way of the k3 world at times. Great radio for some but so great for others perhaps..:-( Don't know could be a replacement but the search has started. Gary VK4WT __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 NR
I like to have the lower response when doing cw. Yes my ears work that low and yes the outboard amplifier and speakers I'm using can respond that low. ~Brett On 8/26/09, Hector Padron ad4c2...@yahoo.com wrote: Ian,I am with you,it works outstanding now,I don't even lose the audio as other said,it drops a liitle bid but still is confortable to my ears but the noise is totally GONE ! About the low end roll-off on version 3.25 was at 30 Hz,now with 3.27 is at 60Hz,who needs to hear that low? besides do your speaker respond to 30Hz,besides does anyone on ESSB respond that low? so 60 Hz is ok with me.73 to all AD4C The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits.. -- Albert Einstein --- On Wed, 8/26/09, Ian Maude i...@gb7mbc.net wrote: From: Ian Maude i...@gb7mbc.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 NR To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Date: Wednesday, August 26, 2009, 8:05 AM Sorry guys but I have to disagree. Finally the noise reduction is usable for SSB :) Absolutely brilliant! Thanks guys. I wonder if those who are having problems are running any RX EQ? I run none at all and find I don't need to. 73 Ian On 26 Aug 2009, at 26August04:54, Don Rasmussen wrote: This is where I jump off the firmware updates train. I have version 3.10 doing everything the way I like it, and can rotate in 120 watts of power when I need to. I am smart enough not to overheat. I always thought I would stay current with the FW, but too many things have gone sideways with respect to my tastes - it would take something truly major to have me upgrade FW in K3 again. Others may feel the progression is going in their direction - that's a problem with a product that comes so close to doing everything perfectly for everyone. [Elecraft] K3 NR rfenabled at gmail.com rfenabled at gmail.com Tue Aug 25 22:58:37 EDT 2009 Previous message: [Elecraft] FS: W5JH Black Widow Paddle Next message: [Elecraft] K3 NR Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] Well the SSB folks lose out yet again on the latest FW revision. Just when the next to useless NR was made to work we have yet another version that favours one mode over others. Rather disappointing result but that appears to be the way of the k3 world at times. Great radio for some but so great for others perhaps..:-( Don't know could be a replacement but the search has started. Gary VK4WT Sent via BlackBerry® from Telstra __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html -- Ian J Maude, G0VGS SysOp GB7MBC HB9DRV-9 DX Clusters Member RSGB, GQRP 9838, FISTS 14077 | K3 #455 http://www.amateurradiotraining.org __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 NR
I found the NR in v3.25 to be excellent to my ears and a big improvement to previous versions, but I'm having a lot of trouble finding a NR setting with v3.27 that I'm comfortable with -- everything sounds like it's coming through a tunnel, even the x-1 settings. I generally prefer minimal DPS noise reduction for SSB and have rarely used the x-4 settings. I generally stuck to 4-1 or 4-2 in previous versions and rode the RF Gain to further reduce background noise when needed. Just can't find a happy setting with v3.27. It might sound OK on one signal but awful on another, resulting in far more dial tweaking than I usually like to do. RX EQ is flat as has been suggested, just doesn't help much. The tunnel effect is a bit less bothersome when using headphones, but I generally prefer using a pair of powered desktop speakers with AFX (Bin) turned on. Haven't tried NR in CW mode yet, my comments apply only to SSB. I've reverted to 3.25 and then back to 3.27 just to make sure I'm hearing what I think I'm hearing. I think I can live with the new NR settings, but sure would like to have them *in addition to* the 3.25 filters which were damn near perfect for my ears. Maybe some additional less aggressive NR settings (5-1 through 5-4, 6-1 through 6-4, etc.) will make everyone happy? Just more free advice... ;-) 73, Paul WW2PT Lyle Johnson wrote: The 3.27 NR F3-1 is *identical* to 3.25 NR F1-4. The 3.27 NR F3-2 is *identical* to 3.25 NR F2-4. The 3.27 NR F3-3 is *identical* to 3.25 NR F3-4. The 3.27 NR F3-4 is *identical* to 3.25 NR F4-4. The 3.27 NR F1- is lighter than the 3.25 NR. The 3.27 NR F2- is a little lighter than the 3.25 NR. The 3.27 NR F4- is heavier than the 3.25 NR. I am an SSB op, not a CW op, and the NR now works much better for me. -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/K3-NR-tp3515659p3518140.html Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 NR
Make sure and try it with AFX on and off. On 8/26/09, Paul - WW2PT ww...@arrl.net wrote: I found the NR in v3.25 to be excellent to my ears and a big improvement to previous versions, but I'm having a lot of trouble finding a NR setting with v3.27 that I'm comfortable with -- everything sounds like it's coming through a tunnel, even the x-1 settings. I generally prefer minimal DPS noise reduction for SSB and have rarely used the x-4 settings. I generally stuck to 4-1 or 4-2 in previous versions and rode the RF Gain to further reduce background noise when needed. Just can't find a happy setting with v3.27. It might sound OK on one signal but awful on another, resulting in far more dial tweaking than I usually like to do. RX EQ is flat as has been suggested, just doesn't help much. The tunnel effect is a bit less bothersome when using headphones, but I generally prefer using a pair of powered desktop speakers with AFX (Bin) turned on. Haven't tried NR in CW mode yet, my comments apply only to SSB. I've reverted to 3.25 and then back to 3.27 just to make sure I'm hearing what I think I'm hearing. I think I can live with the new NR settings, but sure would like to have them *in addition to* the 3.25 filters which were damn near perfect for my ears. Maybe some additional less aggressive NR settings (5-1 through 5-4, 6-1 through 6-4, etc.) will make everyone happy? Just more free advice... ;-) 73, Paul WW2PT Lyle Johnson wrote: The 3.27 NR F3-1 is *identical* to 3.25 NR F1-4. The 3.27 NR F3-2 is *identical* to 3.25 NR F2-4. The 3.27 NR F3-3 is *identical* to 3.25 NR F3-4. The 3.27 NR F3-4 is *identical* to 3.25 NR F4-4. The 3.27 NR F1- is lighter than the 3.25 NR. The 3.27 NR F2- is a little lighter than the 3.25 NR. The 3.27 NR F4- is heavier than the 3.25 NR. I am an SSB op, not a CW op, and the NR now works much better for me. -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/K3-NR-tp3515659p3518140.html Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 NR
P.B. Christensen wrote: With the 2.8K filter and using F/W 3.25, by far the best copy was obtained with a very low pitch setting. The ultra-low pitch is lost with the narrower roofing filters (as expected). If he was working split only 1-2 kHz up, then the story may have been different. Until 3.25, this was not possible in CW mode using any filter, although possible when transmitting CW in SSB mode -- but that presents other operating issues (e.g., frequency display error by the offset amount). Since 300 Hz is as low as the K3 PITCH goes, don't you also have a 250 Hz offset when listening at 50 Hz? Wow...I thought I liked a low PITCH but this is the first I've heard of anyone using 50 Hz! 240 Hz is as low as I ever used with my old TS-930S for weak signals...coincidentally when working 4S7 via long path on 160m from Colorado (truly a weak signal). I have a recording of that on cassette tape and later verified the PITCH setting was ~240 Hz: http://users.vnet.net/btippett/jj1vkl_4s7.htm More recently I used a 270 Hz PITCH to win N2XE's 80m beacon reception test at 27 uW output: http://www.n2xe.com/Beacon.html (270 Hz PITCH mentioned near bottom of page) 73, Bill -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/K3-NR-tp3515712p3518890.html Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 NR
Elecraft says they are planning on bringing that low end audio back as a feature rather than as a bug. I'm very glad it was there as a bug and hope that this response of people liking it helps to improve its position on the priority queue. BTH. On 8/26/09, Laurent F6DEX f6...@yahoo.fr wrote: I come back to 3.25 also ; was much better with 3.25. Here audio is much lower with 3.27. 73, Laurent F6DEX -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/K3-NR-tp3514982p3518767.html Sent from the [K3] mailing list archive at Nabble.com. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 NR
Did that, Brett - should have mentioned it in my last post. The tunnel effect that I'm hearing is actually less objectionable with the AFX on. Paul WW2PT Brett Howard wrote: Make sure and try it with AFX on and off. -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/K3-NR-tp3515659p3518899.html Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 NR
Is it still the case that the interpretation of the NR parameters is as described in the K3 manual (D4)? The manual states: The second part (-y) controls how much of the signal is routed through noise reduction, from 1 (50%) to 4 (100%) If so I'm confused by the identities: The 3.27 NR F3-1 is *identical* to 3.25 NR F1-4. The 3.27 NR F3-2 is *identical* to 3.25 NR F2-4. The 3.27 NR F3-3 is *identical* to 3.25 NR F3-4. The 3.27 NR F3-4 is *identical* to 3.25 NR F4-4. where F-1, -2 etc. are asserted to be identical to Fx-4. Has the scheme changed? Bob NW8L On Tue, Aug 25, 2009 at 9:40 PM, Lyle Johnsonk...@wavecable.com wrote: Well the SSB folks lose out yet again on the latest FW revision. Just when the next to useless NR was made to work we have yet another version that favours one mode over others. The 3.27 NR F3-1 is *identical* to 3.25 NR F1-4. The 3.27 NR F3-2 is *identical* to 3.25 NR F2-4. The 3.27 NR F3-3 is *identical* to 3.25 NR F3-4. The 3.27 NR F3-4 is *identical* to 3.25 NR F4-4. The 3.27 NR F1- is lighter than the 3.25 NR. The 3.27 NR F2- is a little lighter than the 3.25 NR. The 3.27 NR F4- is heavier than the 3.25 NR. I am an SSB op, not a CW op, and the NR now works much better for me. There were some changes we had to make from 3.25 (and previous releases as well) in the Fx-1, -2 and -3 settings which resulted in scolloping of the passband. Some CW ops at certain pitches thought it gave their signals a boost, others at other pitches really bemoaned the attenuation. While less noticeable on SSB, it was there nonetheless. 73, Lyle KK7P (aka Not Sleeping Mt Vernon) __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 NR
Is it still the case that the interpretation of the NR parameters is as described in the K3 manual (D4)? Not with the latest beta release. The manual states: The second part (-y) controls how much of the signal is routed through noise reduction, from 1 (50%) to 4 (100%) If so I'm confused by the identities: The 3.27 NR F3-1 is *identical* to 3.25 NR F1-4. The 3.27 NR F3-2 is *identical* to 3.25 NR F2-4. The 3.27 NR F3-3 is *identical* to 3.25 NR F3-4. The 3.27 NR F3-4 is *identical* to 3.25 NR F4-4. where F-1, -2 etc. are asserted to be identical to Fx-4. Has the scheme changed? Yes. The mixing action of unprocessed and processed audio was resulting in the scalloping effect I mentioned. The best thing to do is to just listen as you adjust the slowly adjust the NR parameters. The type of signal, type of noise, strength, AGC settings and so on are likely to have some effect. This is why there isn't just a one size fits all recommended setting. 73, Lyle KK7P __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 NR
Sure, I know what to do in practice, and I'm not looking for a one size fits all solution. However, it's nice to know if the behavior is no longer in accordance with the documentation, this was not mentioned in the change notes. For now I'll treat the parameter as an opaque series of magic numbers. Thanks, Bob NW8L Has the scheme changed? Yes. The mixing action of unprocessed and processed audio was resulting in the scalloping effect I mentioned. The best thing to do is to just listen as you adjust the slowly adjust the NR parameters. The type of signal, type of noise, strength, AGC settings and so on are likely to have some effect. This is why there isn't just a one size fits all recommended setting. 73, Lyle KK7P __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 NR
...For now I'll treat the parameter as an opaque series of magic numbers. The way the new beta NR works is: Fx-y x selects the length of the filter. F1 = 121 taps, F2 = 91 taps, F3 = 61 taps, F4 = 31 taps (The Beta 3.25 release used FIR filters of 61 taps.) y selects values of Beta (gain), decay, and delay (how long the NR algorithm waits to process a signal) (The Beta 3.5 release used the x parameter for these selections) 73, Lyle KK7P __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 NR
Since 300 Hz is as low as the K3 PITCH goes, don't you also have a 250 Hz offset when listening at 50 Hz? No, and here's why: I leave the menu pitch setting at 600 Hz on all rigs here; it never changes. It's the RIT (non-split) or VFO A (split) that I adjust incoming CW to 100 Hz while copying weak DX. I've been using this method on the Icom '7700 and '7800 since their purchase. Until I purchased the '7800 back in 2005, the only other radio I've owned that would produce ultra-low-pitch CW was the TS-870 but I never bothered trying low pitch CW reception until I tried it with the Icom. So, the fact that the K3 was able to copy the 4S7 station last night using a very low pitch (with F/W 3.25) was pretty exciting for me. Paul, W9AC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 NR
Another thing that I've heard asked for a few times that I'd appreciate is the ability to hear the signal while adjusting pitch rather than a solid tone. I know that if the user had no signal tuned that they be adjusting somewhat blind. However the band noise will still have a different sound based on the pitch selected. As far as the shift you're mentioning are you talking about the fact that the FC star moves to the freq that you have pitch configured for? The filter is still centered in the IF land but it looks like a shift because the K3 tells you about its filters in AF terms. BTH On 8/26/09, Bill W4ZV btipp...@alum.mit.edu wrote: P.B. Christensen wrote: Until I purchased the '7800 back in 2005, the only other radio I've owned that would produce ultra-low-pitch CW was the TS-870 but I never bothered trying low pitch CW reception until I tried it with the Icom. The TS-930S had an infinitely variable PITCH control which went down to zero (and maybe even beyond to negative IF since it was analog). It simultaneously adjusted sidetone, filter center and TX offset so you were always zero beat if you matched the sidetone to the signal. It was easy to tune in a weak signal and then adjust PITCH for the optimum S/N for your ears. This is how I discovered my ears liked the 240-270 Hz range. Orion also allows setting PITCH as low as 200 Hz but I never used settings that low based on my experience with the 930. I still have my 930 and may have to drag it out to see what 50 Hz sounds like, but that sounds awfully low based on my previous experience. I still don't understand why the K3 limits us to 300 Hz PITCH when Orion (which has a very similar block diagram) goes to 200 Hz. Ten-Tec changed their original lower limit of 300 Hz to 200 Hz within a month of my request to lower it...and they also keep their crystal filters centered instead of shifting them at lower PITCH settings (as the K3 does), so the radios apparently have some differences that are not obvious to me. 73, Bill -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/K3-NR-tp3515712p3519877.html Sent from the [K3] mailing list archive at Nabble.com. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 NR
Ah ok then. I do know that with 3.25 and the shift ctrl set to .1 you get some really nice LF response. On 8/26/09, Bill W4ZV btipp...@alum.mit.edu wrote: Brett Howard wrote: As far as the shift you're mentioning are you talking about the fact that the FC star moves to the freq that you have pitch configured for? The filter is still centered in the IF land but it looks like a shift because the K3 tells you about its filters in AF terms. No. At low pitches, the MCU shifts the IF filter such that the lower side is never lower than ~200 Hz. If you're using a 500 Hz XFIL and PITCH 300, the XFIL passband is actually 200-700 Hz...not 300 +/-250 (i.e. not 50-550 which would be centered). Even though you see FC*.30 for the DSP filter, the IF filter is actually offset. 73, Bill -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/K3-NR-tp3515712p3520443.html Sent from the [K3] mailing list archive at Nabble.com. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 NR
Uh oh. This isn't good news. I just installed 3.27, but haven't had time to test out the updated NR algorithms. Prior to 3.25, my biggest complaint was lousy SSB NR performance. 3.25 did a good job addressing those problems, however a lot of CW operators complained. Now if what you say is true, then that's pretty unfortunate. Perhaps Lyle is having difficulty finding a happy medium. The problem with DSP noise reduction is you can't really have a particular algorithm do both things well; CW or speech isolation. At least none of the DSP NR units that claim to do both that I've tried were able to do it well. It was either one or the other. The BHI ANEM module is a perfect example of excellent SSB isolation but lousy for CW. I'm too knackered to test the NR tonight, plus the bands are dead anyway. Hope other reflector participants chime in. 73 de James K2QI -Original Message- From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of rfenab...@gmail.com Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2009 10:59 PM To: Elecraft Subject: [Elecraft] K3 NR Well the SSB folks lose out yet again on the latest FW revision. Just when the next to useless NR was made to work we have yet another version that favours one mode over others. Rather disappointing result but that appears to be the way of the k3 world at times. Great radio for some but so great for others perhaps..:-( Don't know could be a replacement but the search has started. Gary VK4WT Sent via BlackBerryR from Telstra __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 NR
The problem with DSP noise reduction is you can't really have a particular algorithm do both things well; CW or speech isolation. This is precisely why I asked if the DSP NR parameters are fixed or variable; in the K2 DSP denoiser the user had total control of the beta and decay parameters. If the K3 had the same controls, I believe the users could tailor the NR to his or her taste, SSB or CW, agressive or lazy, heavy or light, and all of this thrashing between the two camps would go away. But I guess the K3 has no such access to these parameters. That surprises me. Too bad. Al W6LX __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 NR
Well the SSB folks lose out yet again on the latest FW revision. Just when the next to useless NR was made to work we have yet another version that favours one mode over others. The 3.27 NR F3-1 is *identical* to 3.25 NR F1-4. The 3.27 NR F3-2 is *identical* to 3.25 NR F2-4. The 3.27 NR F3-3 is *identical* to 3.25 NR F3-4. The 3.27 NR F3-4 is *identical* to 3.25 NR F4-4. The 3.27 NR F1- is lighter than the 3.25 NR. The 3.27 NR F2- is a little lighter than the 3.25 NR. The 3.27 NR F4- is heavier than the 3.25 NR. I am an SSB op, not a CW op, and the NR now works much better for me. There were some changes we had to make from 3.25 (and previous releases as well) in the Fx-1, -2 and -3 settings which resulted in scolloping of the passband. Some CW ops at certain pitches thought it gave their signals a boost, others at other pitches really bemoaned the attenuation. While less noticeable on SSB, it was there nonetheless. 73, Lyle KK7P (aka Not Sleeping Mt Vernon) __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] NR distortion with 3.11
I rarely use NR myself so most of the time I'll stick with Don's settings. I downloaded K3_EZ and have several alternative AGC settings entered so now it's easy to change. Thanks for the input Don. Don Wilhelm-4 wrote: Yes, the low slope (and perhaps the threshold) for my AGC settings increases the apparent NR distortion. So you have to make a decision better AGC response or clearer audio when using NR. Since I rarely use NR, I have made my choice. It may be that someday soon we may 'have our cake and eat it too' when Lyle works on the NR algorithms, but for now we have to make those choices. 73, Don W3FPR NZ0T wrote: I should add that I recently changed my AGC settings to those suggested by Don W3FPR to make the K3 sound more like a K2: AGC PLS off AGC SLP 002 AGC THR 008 AGC-F 140 AGC-S 010 Any other AGC settings that are better? Could these settings affect the NR in a bad way? I work a lot of CW but also some SSB on 160 and that's where I noticed the NR sounding bad. . __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/NR-distortion-with-3.11-tp2860948p2868893.html Sent from the [K3] mailing list archive at Nabble.com. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] NR distortion with 3.11
I should add that I recently changed my AGC settings to those suggested by Don W3FPR to make the K3 sound more like a K2: AGC PLS off AGC SLP 002 AGC THR 008 AGC-F 140 AGC-S 010 Any other AGC settings that are better? Could these settings affect the NR in a bad way? I work a lot of CW but also some SSB on 160 and that's where I noticed the NR sounding bad. . NZ0T wrote: I don't use NR much and tonight was the first time I've tried it since downloading 3.11.It seems to be very distorted even at the lowest setting and when I rotate the level knob I hear a clicking sound in the audio. Anyone else had this occur? -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/NR-distortion-with-3.11-tp2860948p2865435.html Sent from the [K3] mailing list archive at Nabble.com. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] NR distortion with 3.11
Yes, the low slope (and perhaps the threshold) for my AGC settings increases the apparent NR distortion. So you have to make a decision better AGC response or clearer audio when using NR. Since I rarely use NR, I have made my choice. It may be that someday soon we may 'have our cake and eat it too' when Lyle works on the NR algorithms, but for now we have to make those choices. 73, Don W3FPR NZ0T wrote: I should add that I recently changed my AGC settings to those suggested by Don W3FPR to make the K3 sound more like a K2: AGC PLS off AGC SLP 002 AGC THR 008 AGC-F 140 AGC-S 010 Any other AGC settings that are better? Could these settings affect the NR in a bad way? I work a lot of CW but also some SSB on 160 and that's where I noticed the NR sounding bad. . __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] k3 NR Audio level increase
After thinking further about Steve's question about whether a mic was connected or not, I found the cause of the problem -- line in and line out were connected to a computer sound card, which although powered down, apparently provided enough coupling between line out and line in to drive the VOX when tuning through the carrier with NR on. When doing so the line out level apparently gets very high, at least briefly. The line out level was set to 10, line in gain to 22. With the cables removed from the K3 there is no problem. So it's a result of unintended coupling, it all makes perfect sense now. Thanks Steve! Bob NW8L On Sat, Apr 25, 2009 at 7:30 PM, Bob Cunnings bob.cunni...@gmail.com wrote: Yes, I've noticed the tendency of NR to null out carriers, which is easy to observe when VOX is off. But with VOX on, the phenomenon I'm observing is quite different than that - a wup-wup-wup oscillation with a period of a second or so that may persist for a considerable time after it is triggered by slowly tuning through the carrier. The more aggressive the NR setting, the more vulnerable it seems, but with a strong carrier it can be triggered at any setting. No, I have no microphone connected, and no computer. When this occurs, the red TX indicator does *not* light if K3 is in TEST mode, that's why I hadn't noticed it earlier - I had the rig in TEST mode at the time. Bob NW8L On Sat, Apr 25, 2009 at 7:01 PM, Steve Ellington n...@carolina.rr.com wrote: Bob When in USB/LSB, NR does tend to totally null out carriers. CW does make that wup-wup sound as it's notched out. I'm not sure why NR would be acting as an Auto Notch but this does seem to be the case. Don't know about your red light...Do you have a mic connected? Steve Ellington n...@carolina.rr.com - Original Message - From: Bob Cunnings bob.cunni...@gmail.com To: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net Sent: Saturday, April 25, 2009 7:39 PM Subject: Re: [Elecraft] k3 NR Audio level increase Bob NW8L On Sat, Apr 25, 2009 at 3:20 PM, Bob Cunnings bob.cunni...@gmail.com wrote: Apparently NR *is* upstream of AGC, since a while back NR was disallowed unless AGC was enabled [1] in order, according to K2VCO, to prevent instability [2]. By the way, I can observe this instability (a wup-wup oscillation) in LSB/USB modes with an S9 carrier, and AGC settings on the light side (high threshold, low slope, with THR=8 and SLP=0 being the extreme). I ran into this tuning through shortwave BC stations with NR enabled with THR and SLP set to 5. I'm using firmware version 3.11. What seems odd to me is that although I can reproduce the audio level increase cases observed by others when NR is enabled, the S-meter indication doesn't change - I suppose that the S-meter pickoff point is upstream of NR? On the flip side you mention, if notch filtering was before AGC as you wish, would you expect the S-meter indication to change when the notch filter is active? Bob NW8L [1] http://www.mail-archive.com/elecraft@mailman.qth.net/msg58245.html [2] http://www.mail-archive.com/elecraft@mailman.qth.net/msg60930.html On Sat, Apr 25, 2009 at 12:55 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV li...@subich.com wrote: It's not working as it should ... there should be no volume change when engaging NR. Noise reduction should work on the audio AFTER AGC. If anything, the test results below should show a very slight drop with NR due to the removal of the unwanted (broadband) components but the peak level should not change. This NR problem is the flip side of the issue with the notch filter ... Notch is working AFTER the AGC where it should work before AGC while NR is working before the AGC where it should work AFTER the AGC. 73, ... Joe, W4TV __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] k3 NR Audio level increase
Terry I agree, it is an effect I have recently noticed. I have not had my K3 very long so I am not quite familiar with all the various options available so I was thinking it was something I have done. A quick check using Speclab indicates about a 20dB increase. Pete G3OBV From: G4POP tge...@btinternet.com To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Sent: Saturday, 25 April, 2009 9:03:53 AM Subject: [Elecraft] k3 NR Audio level increase I see that the dramatic increase in audio level when NR is turned on has been mentioned a couple of times but I can find no solution for this mentioned in the forum and the latest firmware 3.11 has not cured it. At this point I find NR totally un-usable unless I want to risk perforated ear drums! Terry G4POP -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/k3-NR-Audio-level-increase-tp2702048p2702048.html Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] k3 NR Audio level increase
Terry, I do not experience anything like that on my K3. What NR parameters are you using? Are you attempting to use NR at a narrow bandwidth when this occurs? If so, I can understand why that might occur. Lyle has explained previously that the NR is implemented in the K3 as signal enhancement rather than a strict noise reduction. In other words, the passband is examined for content that correlates, and the result is amplified. If the bandwidth is narrow, it is possible that the entire passband content (including noise) will appear to be a signal. 73, Don W3FPR G4POP wrote: I see that the dramatic increase in audio level when NR is turned on has been mentioned a couple of times but I can find no solution for this mentioned in the forum and the latest firmware 3.11 has not cured it. At this point I find NR totally un-usable unless I want to risk perforated ear drums! Terry G4POP __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] k3 NR Audio level increase
Checked again the NB on CW and SSB on both rigs with 3.11. I do not see this problem at all. Is it possible the AGC setup that does this? 73, N2TK, Tony #311 #1435 -Original Message- From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of G4POP Sent: Saturday, April 25, 2009 4:04 AM To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: [Elecraft] k3 NR Audio level increase I see that the dramatic increase in audio level when NR is turned on has been mentioned a couple of times but I can find no solution for this mentioned in the forum and the latest firmware 3.11 has not cured it. At this point I find NR totally un-usable unless I want to risk perforated ear drums! Terry G4POP -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/k3-NR-Audio-level-increase-tp2702048p2702048.html Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] k3 NR Audio level increase
N2TK wrote: Checked again the NB on CW and SSB on both rigs with 3.11. I do not see this problem at all. Is it possible the AGC setup that does this? Most likely it's due to setting RX EQ to positive settings for some bands: http://www.mail-archive.com/elecraft@mailman.qth.net/msg71174.html 73, Bill -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/k3-NR-Audio-level-increase-tp2702048p2709171.html Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] k3 NR Audio level increase
Don, Try this: 1. Set mode to CW, BW to 2.00, RX EQ = flat. 2. With no signal tuned in, hold NR and set to F4-4. Tap NR twice to turn off NR. 3. Tune in an S9 signal, or better yet, use a signal generator (I use an XG2). 4. Set RF gain to max, AF gain for a comfortable volume. 5. Tap NR to turn on noise reduction. (You might want to keep one hand on the AF gain control :-) On my K3 (with FW 3.11), turning on NR under these conditions boosts the audio output voltage by 17.2 dB according to the built-in AFV meter. Using less aggressive NR parameters results in less of a boost, down to 6.3 dB at F1-1. Now tune in a weak signal (say, S3) and repeat the steps. The boost is still there, but very much reduced (On my rig at S3 and NR=F4-4, the boost is 6.3 dB, at NR=F1-1 it's 1.4 dB) Now imagine trying to copy a signal that rapidly fades between S3 and S9 with NR on. 73 -- Joe KB8AP On Apr 25, 2009, at 4:35 AM, Don Wilhelm wrote: Terry, I do not experience anything like that on my K3. What NR parameters are you using? [...] 73, Don W3FPR G4POP wrote: I see that the dramatic increase in audio level when NR is turned on has been mentioned a couple of times but I can find no solution for this mentioned in the forum and the latest firmware 3.11 has not cured it. [...] Terry G4POP __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] k3 NR Audio level increase
Joe, following your instructions, I cannot duplicate this on my rig listening to a S-9 signal. I do find that if AGC-THR is set below 5, the audio drops significantly when initiating NR at my preferred setting, 2-1. Decreasing the AGC SLP increases the audio with NR engaged. Gary W7TEA Don, Try this: 1. Set mode to CW, BW to 2.00, RX EQ = flat. 2. With no signal tuned in, hold NR and set to F4-4. Tap NR twice to turn off NR. -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/k3-NR-Audio-level-increase-tp2702048p2709775.html Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] k3 NR Audio level increase
- Original Message - From: Joe Planisky jp...@jeffnet.org To: d...@w3fpr.com; Elecraft@mailman.qth.net Cc: G4POP tge...@btinternet.com Sent: Saturday, April 25, 2009 2:58 PM Subject: Re: [Elecraft] k3 NR Audio level increase 1. Set mode to CW, BW to 2.00 --- If the snr is marginal, why would you set BW = 2.0? Dave Hachadorian, K6LL Yuma, AZ . __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] k3 NR Audio level increase
The settings and steps are intended to demonstrate the issue, they're not necessarily typical operating settings. Don had suggested that perhaps the cause was related to using NR with a narrow bandwidth. I wanted to demonstrate that it happens at wide bandwidth as well. 73 -- Joe KB8AP On Apr 25, 2009, at 8:21 AM, Dave Hachadorian wrote: If the snr is marginal, why would you set BW = 2.0? Dave Hachadorian, K6LL Yuma, AZ __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] k3 NR Audio level increase
I have the problem also for some time, it is signal strength dependent, the signal must be loud enough and when you hit the NR function with a high setting the audio increases greatly,Easiest way to prove it is with a variable strength signal fed into the receiver and setting the NR to a setting if 4.Will clean your ears out for sure. It does it on other settings as well but less of an audio increase. By the way thats not how an audio peak filter works if thats what its trying to simulate. Merv KH7C Checked again the NB on CW and SSB on both rigs with 3.11. I do not see this problem at all. Is it possible the AGC setup that does this? 73, N2TK, Tony #311 #1435 -Original Message- From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of G4POP Sent: Saturday, April 25, 2009 4:04 AM To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: [Elecraft] k3 NR Audio level increase I see that the dramatic increase in audio level when NR is turned on has been mentioned a couple of times but I can find no solution for this mentioned in the forum and the latest firmware 3.11 has not cured it. At this point I find NR totally un-usable unless I want to risk perforated ear drums! Terry G4POP __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] k3 NR Audio level increase
Good catch, Gary. AGC settings are the missing piece and probably why some people aren't seeing this. With an S9 signal, NR=F4-4, BW=2.00, I get the following results for different settings of AGC THR and AGC SLP when NR is engaged: THR=2, SLP= 0 +10.0 dB THR=2, SLP= 5 + 2.7 dB THR=2, SLP=10 - 6.0 dB THR=2, SLP=15 -15.5 dB THR=4, SLP= 0 +15.2 dB THR=4, SLP= 5 + 9.6 dB THR=4, SLP=10 + 3.6 dB THR=4, SLP=15 - 3.8 dB THR=6, SLP= 0 +16.6 dB THR=6, SLP= 5 +13.3 dB THR=6, SLP=10 + 7.9 dB THR=6, SLP=15 + 1.5 dB THR=8, SLP= 0 +18.3 dB THR=8, SLP= 5 +15.6 dB THR=8, SLP=10 +11.7 dB THR=8, SLP=15 + 7.0 db 73 -- Joe KB8AP On Apr 25, 2009, at 8:21 AM, W7TEA wrote: Joe, following your instructions, I cannot duplicate this on my rig listening to a S-9 signal. I do find that if AGC-THR is set below 5, the audio drops significantly when initiating NR at my preferred setting, 2-1. Decreasing the AGC SLP increases the audio with NR engaged. Gary W7TEA __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] k3 NR Audio level increase
So where's the problem? Everything seems to be working properly. With a high THR and low SLP, louder signals are LOUD and NR just helps make it more obvious because there's not so much noise to distract your hearing. Remember, AGC used to be called AVC Automatic Volume Control, back in the old days. If you choose a high threshold, THR, that means that AVC does almost nothing. AVC becomes MVW, manual volume control, Meaning knobs must be turned (AF). Steve Ellington n...@carolina.rr.com - Original Message - From: Joe Planisky jp...@jeffnet.org To: W7TEA gt...@mac.com Cc: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Sent: Saturday, April 25, 2009 1:22 PM Subject: Re: [Elecraft] k3 NR Audio level increase Good catch, Gary. AGC settings are the missing piece and probably why some people aren't seeing this. With an S9 signal, NR=F4-4, BW=2.00, I get the following results for different settings of AGC THR and AGC SLP when NR is engaged: THR=2, SLP= 0 +10.0 dB THR=2, SLP= 5 + 2.7 dB THR=2, SLP=10 - 6.0 dB THR=2, SLP=15 -15.5 dB THR=4, SLP= 0 +15.2 dB THR=4, SLP= 5 + 9.6 dB THR=4, SLP=10 + 3.6 dB THR=4, SLP=15 - 3.8 dB THR=6, SLP= 0 +16.6 dB THR=6, SLP= 5 +13.3 dB THR=6, SLP=10 + 7.9 dB THR=6, SLP=15 + 1.5 dB THR=8, SLP= 0 +18.3 dB THR=8, SLP= 5 +15.6 dB THR=8, SLP=10 +11.7 dB THR=8, SLP=15 + 7.0 db 73 -- Joe KB8AP On Apr 25, 2009, at 8:21 AM, W7TEA wrote: Joe, following your instructions, I cannot duplicate this on my rig listening to a S-9 signal. I do find that if AGC-THR is set below 5, the audio drops significantly when initiating NR at my preferred setting, 2-1. Decreasing the AGC SLP increases the audio with NR engaged. Gary W7TEA __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] k3 NR Audio level increase
I am talking about SSB with a bandwidth between 1k and 3.5k ( I have the 250, 1k, 1.8k, 2.7k 6K filters installed) No mater what NR setting is used I get the same effect to a lesser or grater degree Strange that some of you have this problem while others do not? Terry N2TK wrote: Checked again the NB on CW and SSB on both rigs with 3.11. I do not see this problem at all. Is it possible the AGC setup that does this? 73, N2TK, Tony #311 #1435 -Original Message- From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of G4POP Sent: Saturday, April 25, 2009 4:04 AM To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: [Elecraft] k3 NR Audio level increase I see that the dramatic increase in audio level when NR is turned on has been mentioned a couple of times but I can find no solution for this mentioned in the forum and the latest firmware 3.11 has not cured it. At this point I find NR totally un-usable unless I want to risk perforated ear drums! Terry G4POP -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/k3-NR-Audio-level-increase-tp2702048p2702048.html Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/k3-NR-Audio-level-increase-tp2702048p2711713.html Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] k3 NR Audio level increase
So where's the problem? Everything seems to be working properly. With a high THR and low SLP, louder signals are LOUD and NR just helps make it more obvious because there's not so much noise to distract your hearing. It's not working as it should ... there should be no volume change when engaging NR. Noise reduction should work on the audio AFTER AGC. If anything, the test results below should show a very slight drop with NR due to the removal of the unwanted (broadband) components but the peak level should not change. This NR problem is the flip side of the issue with the notch filter ... Notch is working AFTER the AGC where it should work before AGC while NR is working before the AGC where it should work AFTER the AGC. 73, ... Joe, W4TV -Original Message- From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Steve Ellington Sent: Saturday, April 25, 2009 2:00 PM To: Joe Planisky; W7TEA Cc: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] k3 NR Audio level increase So where's the problem? Everything seems to be working properly. With a high THR and low SLP, louder signals are LOUD and NR just helps make it more obvious because there's not so much noise to distract your hearing. Remember, AGC used to be called AVC Automatic Volume Control, back in the old days. If you choose a high threshold, THR, that means that AVC does almost nothing. AVC becomes MVW, manual volume control, Meaning knobs must be turned (AF). Steve Ellington n...@carolina.rr.com - Original Message - From: Joe Planisky jp...@jeffnet.org To: W7TEA gt...@mac.com Cc: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Sent: Saturday, April 25, 2009 1:22 PM Subject: Re: [Elecraft] k3 NR Audio level increase Good catch, Gary. AGC settings are the missing piece and probably why some people aren't seeing this. With an S9 signal, NR=F4-4, BW=2.00, I get the following results for different settings of AGC THR and AGC SLP when NR is engaged: THR=2, SLP= 0 +10.0 dB THR=2, SLP= 5 + 2.7 dB THR=2, SLP=10 - 6.0 dB THR=2, SLP=15 -15.5 dB THR=4, SLP= 0 +15.2 dB THR=4, SLP= 5 + 9.6 dB THR=4, SLP=10 + 3.6 dB THR=4, SLP=15 - 3.8 dB THR=6, SLP= 0 +16.6 dB THR=6, SLP= 5 +13.3 dB THR=6, SLP=10 + 7.9 dB THR=6, SLP=15 + 1.5 dB THR=8, SLP= 0 +18.3 dB THR=8, SLP= 5 +15.6 dB THR=8, SLP=10 +11.7 dB THR=8, SLP=15 + 7.0 db 73 -- Joe KB8AP On Apr 25, 2009, at 8:21 AM, W7TEA wrote: Joe, following your instructions, I cannot duplicate this on my rig listening to a S-9 signal. I do find that if AGC-THR is set below 5, the audio drops significantly when initiating NR at my preferred setting, 2-1. Decreasing the AGC SLP increases the audio with NR engaged. Gary W7TEA __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] k3 NR Audio level increase
Joe, I tried your suggested settings, and yes I found an increase in audio volume. I also observed that the NR worked as a squelch at that aggressive setting. I normally use F1-3 or F1-4 for NR and have no problem. I don't use NR when attempting to copy a weak signal. When the weak signal is down in the noise level, the NR algorithm cannot distinguish between the noise and the signal with certainty. My ears do a better job despite the noise, so I turn NR off when digging for the weak ones. 73, Don W3FPR Joe Planisky wrote: Don, Try this: 1. Set mode to CW, BW to 2.00, RX EQ = flat. 2. With no signal tuned in, hold NR and set to F4-4. Tap NR twice to turn off NR. 3. Tune in an S9 signal, or better yet, use a signal generator (I use an XG2). 4. Set RF gain to max, AF gain for a comfortable volume. 5. Tap NR to turn on noise reduction. (You might want to keep one hand on the AF gain control :-) On my K3 (with FW 3.11), turning on NR under these conditions boosts the audio output voltage by 17.2 dB according to the built-in AFV meter. Using less aggressive NR parameters results in less of a boost, down to 6.3 dB at F1-1. Now tune in a weak signal (say, S3) and repeat the steps. The boost is still there, but very much reduced (On my rig at S3 and NR=F4-4, the boost is 6.3 dB, at NR=F1-1 it's 1.4 dB) Now imagine trying to copy a signal that rapidly fades between S3 and S9 with NR on. 73 -- Joe KB8AP __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] k3 NR Audio level increase
Apparently NR *is* upstream of AGC, since a while back NR was disallowed unless AGC was enabled [1] in order, according to K2VCO, to prevent instability [2]. By the way, I can observe this instability (a wup-wup oscillation) in LSB/USB modes with an S9 carrier, and AGC settings on the light side (high threshold, low slope, with THR=8 and SLP=0 being the extreme). I ran into this tuning through shortwave BC stations with NR enabled with THR and SLP set to 5. I'm using firmware version 3.11. What seems odd to me is that although I can reproduce the audio level increase cases observed by others when NR is enabled, the S-meter indication doesn't change - I suppose that the S-meter pickoff point is upstream of NR? On the flip side you mention, if notch filtering was before AGC as you wish, would you expect the S-meter indication to change when the notch filter is active? Bob NW8L [1] http://www.mail-archive.com/elecraft@mailman.qth.net/msg58245.html [2] http://www.mail-archive.com/elecraft@mailman.qth.net/msg60930.html On Sat, Apr 25, 2009 at 12:55 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV li...@subich.com wrote: It's not working as it should ... there should be no volume change when engaging NR. Noise reduction should work on the audio AFTER AGC. If anything, the test results below should show a very slight drop with NR due to the removal of the unwanted (broadband) components but the peak level should not change. This NR problem is the flip side of the issue with the notch filter ... Notch is working AFTER the AGC where it should work before AGC while NR is working before the AGC where it should work AFTER the AGC. 73, ... Joe, W4TV __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] k3 NR Audio level increase
Heh. My voltmeter's hearing doesn't tend to get distracted by noise. On Apr 25, 2009, at 11:00 AM, Steve Ellington wrote: So where's the problem? Everything seems to be working properly. With a high THR and low SLP, louder signals are LOUD and NR just helps make it more obvious because there's not so much noise to distract your hearing. Remember, AGC used to be called AVC Automatic Volume Control, back in the old days. If you choose a high threshold, THR, that means that AVC does almost nothing. AVC becomes MVW, manual volume control, Meaning knobs must be turned (AF). Steve Ellington n...@carolina.rr.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] k3 NR Audio level increase
Interesting. For CW I always use the NR to dig out the weak ones. The effect is amazing. I believe the reason we all see this differently is due to AGC settings. THR, SLP etc. really affect the NR. Steve Ellington n...@carolina.rr.com - Original Message - From: Don Wilhelm w3...@embarqmail.com To: Joe Planisky jp...@jeffnet.org Cc: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net Sent: Saturday, April 25, 2009 5:14 PM Subject: Re: [Elecraft] k3 NR Audio level increase Joe, I tried your suggested settings, and yes I found an increase in audio volume. I also observed that the NR worked as a squelch at that aggressive setting. I normally use F1-3 or F1-4 for NR and have no problem. I don't use NR when attempting to copy a weak signal. When the weak signal is down in the noise level, the NR algorithm cannot distinguish between the noise and the signal with certainty. My ears do a better job despite the noise, so I turn NR off when digging for the weak ones. 73, Don W3FPR Joe Planisky wrote: Don, Try this: 1. Set mode to CW, BW to 2.00, RX EQ = flat. 2. With no signal tuned in, hold NR and set to F4-4. Tap NR twice to turn off NR. 3. Tune in an S9 signal, or better yet, use a signal generator (I use an XG2). 4. Set RF gain to max, AF gain for a comfortable volume. 5. Tap NR to turn on noise reduction. (You might want to keep one hand on the AF gain control :-) On my K3 (with FW 3.11), turning on NR under these conditions boosts the audio output voltage by 17.2 dB according to the built-in AFV meter. Using less aggressive NR parameters results in less of a boost, down to 6.3 dB at F1-1. Now tune in a weak signal (say, S3) and repeat the steps. The boost is still there, but very much reduced (On my rig at S3 and NR=F4-4, the boost is 6.3 dB, at NR=F1-1 it's 1.4 dB) Now imagine trying to copy a signal that rapidly fades between S3 and S9 with NR on. 73 -- Joe KB8AP __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
