Re: [Emc-developers] 2.8 Situation

[Rod Webster]

I know I'm not on the dev team but my take on this is that you have no
choice but to release 2.8 without RTAI.
It appears there are no prospects to resolve the situation which has
clearly been an issue since Wheezy went EOL over two years ago.
By withholding the release of V 2.8 for such an obscene amount of time, you
are hurting the future of this amazing software project.
There are so many great features  in 2.8 and I hazard a guess there has
never been a release candidate of any software in the history of Linux that
has had so much user testing.

This is not a unique situation, and its happened to many software projects
in the past particularly where hardware interfaces are involved, In fact, I
had a software program in this boat and I was unable to purchase any
hardware in Australia to use as a backstop in our production environment.
The software upgrade was $25k and I had only paid $10k for the complete
hardware and software system. I resorted to buying a PC with the right CPU
second hand from the USA to have up my sleeve.

Fortunately, its not going to cost users  anywhere near the $25k I faced to
upgrade their hardware.

Please bite the bullet and release 2.8 without further delay and get this
project back on track. Its just too confusing to have 3  versions out there.

Rod Webster
*1300 896 832*
+61 435 765 611
VMN®
www.vmn.com.au



On Tue, 9 Jun 2020 at 20:27, andy pugh  wrote:

> I had hoped to release 2.8 at Easter, but hit a roadblock.
>
> My plan was to offer both preempt-rt and RTAI ISOs for fresh installs with
> Debian Buster, and packages for both realtime systems for the other
> supported OSs too.
> Unfortunately, despite a lot of effort on the part of Alec and a lesser
> amount by myself we have not managed to make the RTAI system exit cleanly
> under all circumstances.
>
> Specifically a script that starts realtime, loads an instance of the abs
> component and then exists will cause a kernel lock up after hundreds to
> thousands of cycles.
> Unfortunately this means that runtests will frequently crash the buildbot,
> so is a more serious problem than it might seem.
>
> As far as I know the system is reliable and stable while actually running
> LinuxCNC.
>
> There is a similar problem simply loading and unloading the RTAI
> kernel modules (No LinuxCNC code involved), but that takes tens of
> thousands of cycles (typically) to show so may be an entirely different
> issue.
>
> Unfortunately many existing users are likely to have machines that won't
> work acceptably with preempt-rt and, whilst 2.8 does run on 32-bit Wheezy +
> RTAI I really would like to be offering an upgrade path to a supported OS.
>
> So I don't really know what to do.
>
> --
> atp
> "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is designed
> for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and lunatics."
> — George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912
>
> ___
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> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-developers
>

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Re: [Emc-developers] 2.8 Situation

[andy pugh]

On Tue, 9 Jun 2020 at 12:02, Rod Webster  wrote:

> It appears there are no prospects to resolve the situation which has
> clearly been an issue since Wheezy went EOL over two years ago.

Not so, the situation has changed markedly since Alec did the work to make
RTAI usable on 4.x.x 64-bit kernels.

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is designed
for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912

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Re: [Emc-developers] 2.8 Situation

[Rod Webster]

>Not so, the situation has changed markedly since Alec did the work to make
>RTAI usable on 4.x.x 64-bit kernels.
I appreciate that you have expended enormous effort, But what I thought you
said is that despite that effort, you still have not got a result and you
did not know what to do.

My view is that you release on the platforms you can support.. If the users
want to upgrade and their hardware is not up to it then they can make the
choice to upgrade or not.
You  hold the project back by not doing anything. You can't do that
any longer.

I've been a user for 5 years now and have never used Wheezy or V 2.7.
Neither of them worked for my hardware. The vast majority of users must
surely be in my camp by now. We simply want V 2.8 to be the distribution
version because we want to be forward looking not constrained by
compatibility with old and obsolete systems.

Rod Webster
*1300 896 832*
+61 435 765 611
VMN®
www.vmn.com.au



On Tue, 9 Jun 2020 at 21:23, andy pugh  wrote:

> On Tue, 9 Jun 2020 at 12:02, Rod Webster  wrote:
>
> > It appears there are no prospects to resolve the situation which has
> > clearly been an issue since Wheezy went EOL over two years ago.
>
> Not so, the situation has changed markedly since Alec did the work to make
> RTAI usable on 4.x.x 64-bit kernels.
>
> --
> atp
> "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is designed
> for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and lunatics."
> — George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912
>
> ___
> Emc-developers mailing list
> Emc-developers@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-developers
>

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Re: [Emc-developers] 2.8 Situation

[Peter C. Wallace]

On Tue, 9 Jun 2020, andy pugh wrote:


Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2020 11:25:40 +0100
From: andy pugh 
Reply-To: EMC developers 
To: EMC developers 
Subject: [Emc-developers] 2.8 Situation

I had hoped to release 2.8 at Easter, but hit a roadblock.

My plan was to offer both preempt-rt and RTAI ISOs for fresh installs with
Debian Buster, and packages for both realtime systems for the other
supported OSs too.
Unfortunately, despite a lot of effort on the part of Alec and a lesser
amount by myself we have not managed to make the RTAI system exit cleanly
under all circumstances.

Specifically a script that starts realtime, loads an instance of the abs
component and then exists will cause a kernel lock up after hundreds to
thousands of cycles.
Unfortunately this means that runtests will frequently crash the buildbot,
so is a more serious problem than it might seem.

As far as I know the system is reliable and stable while actually running
LinuxCNC.

There is a similar problem simply loading and unloading the RTAI
kernel modules (No LinuxCNC code involved), but that takes tens of
thousands of cycles (typically) to show so may be an entirely different
issue.

Unfortunately many existing users are likely to have machines that won't
work acceptably with preempt-rt and, whilst 2.8 does run on 32-bit Wheezy +
RTAI I really would like to be offering an upgrade path to a supported OS.

So I don't really know what to do.

--
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is designed
for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and lunatics."
?? George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912


How likely are LinuxCNC bugs to RT specific? (that is, what test coverage do 
you get by just running the tests on Preempt-RT)


As far as the buildbot goes could the RTAI tests be done on another system with 
a hardware watchdog?


Peter Wallace
Mesa Electronics
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Re: [Emc-developers] 2.8 Situation

[Jon Elson]

On 06/09/2020 05:25 AM, andy pugh wrote:

Specifically a script that starts realtime, loads an instance of the abs
component and then exists will cause a kernel lock up after hundreds to
thousands of cycles.
Now that you've narrowed it down to abs (VERY good detective 
work, there!) you might look closely

at the code used and see if it suggests anything funny.

And, of course, you could send a message to Paolo to see if 
he has any ideas.


Jon


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Re: [Emc-developers] 2.8 Situation

[John Thornton]

At this point I would suggest releasing 2.8 with preempt-rt ISO and if 
at a later

date RTAI becomes stable release that ISO.

Just my 2¢ well with inflation maybe my $2

JT

On 6/9/2020 5:25 AM, andy pugh wrote:

I had hoped to release 2.8 at Easter, but hit a roadblock.

My plan was to offer both preempt-rt and RTAI ISOs for fresh installs with
Debian Buster, and packages for both realtime systems for the other
supported OSs too.
Unfortunately, despite a lot of effort on the part of Alec and a lesser
amount by myself we have not managed to make the RTAI system exit cleanly
under all circumstances.

Specifically a script that starts realtime, loads an instance of the abs
component and then exists will cause a kernel lock up after hundreds to
thousands of cycles.
Unfortunately this means that runtests will frequently crash the buildbot,
so is a more serious problem than it might seem.

As far as I know the system is reliable and stable while actually running
LinuxCNC.

There is a similar problem simply loading and unloading the RTAI
kernel modules (No LinuxCNC code involved), but that takes tens of
thousands of cycles (typically) to show so may be an entirely different
issue.

Unfortunately many existing users are likely to have machines that won't
work acceptably with preempt-rt and, whilst 2.8 does run on 32-bit Wheezy +
RTAI I really would like to be offering an upgrade path to a supported OS.

So I don't really know what to do.




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Re: [Emc-developers] 2.8 Situation

[andy pugh]

On Tue, 9 Jun 2020 at 15:49, Jon Elson  wrote:

>
> Now that you've narrowed it down to abs


It's not abs. That's just the alphabetically first test.

It crashes (more slowly) even if you just do realtime start / halrun -U in
a loop.

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is designed
for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912

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Re: [Emc-developers] 2.8 Situation

[linuxcnc]

RELEASE 2.8...

As JT mentioned, if/when the rtai problem gets resolved, then release that 
particular version.

Roguish
Using LinuxCNC since '06



-Original Message-
From: andy pugh  
Sent: Tuesday, June 09, 2020 3:26 AM
To: EMC developers 
Subject: [Emc-developers] 2.8 Situation

I had hoped to release 2.8 at Easter, but hit a roadblock.

My plan was to offer both preempt-rt and RTAI ISOs for fresh installs with 
Debian Buster, and packages for both realtime systems for the other supported 
OSs too.
Unfortunately, despite a lot of effort on the part of Alec and a lesser amount 
by myself we have not managed to make the RTAI system exit cleanly under all 
circumstances.

Specifically a script that starts realtime, loads an instance of the abs 
component and then exists will cause a kernel lock up after hundreds to 
thousands of cycles.
Unfortunately this means that runtests will frequently crash the buildbot, so 
is a more serious problem than it might seem.

As far as I know the system is reliable and stable while actually running 
LinuxCNC.

There is a similar problem simply loading and unloading the RTAI kernel modules 
(No LinuxCNC code involved), but that takes tens of thousands of cycles 
(typically) to show so may be an entirely different issue.

Unfortunately many existing users are likely to have machines that won't work 
acceptably with preempt-rt and, whilst 2.8 does run on 32-bit Wheezy + RTAI I 
really would like to be offering an upgrade path to a supported OS.

So I don't really know what to do.

--
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is designed for 
the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912

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Re: [Emc-developers] 2.8 Situation

[Bojan Topalovski]

I am for fast 2.8 get stable .. if my voice count.

Normal user

On Tue, Jun 9, 2020, 18:30  wrote:

> RELEASE 2.8...
>
> As JT mentioned, if/when the rtai problem gets resolved, then release that
> particular version.
>
> Roguish
> Using LinuxCNC since '06
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: andy pugh 
> Sent: Tuesday, June 09, 2020 3:26 AM
> To: EMC developers 
> Subject: [Emc-developers] 2.8 Situation
>
> I had hoped to release 2.8 at Easter, but hit a roadblock.
>
> My plan was to offer both preempt-rt and RTAI ISOs for fresh installs with
> Debian Buster, and packages for both realtime systems for the other
> supported OSs too.
> Unfortunately, despite a lot of effort on the part of Alec and a lesser
> amount by myself we have not managed to make the RTAI system exit cleanly
> under all circumstances.
>
> Specifically a script that starts realtime, loads an instance of the abs
> component and then exists will cause a kernel lock up after hundreds to
> thousands of cycles.
> Unfortunately this means that runtests will frequently crash the buildbot,
> so is a more serious problem than it might seem.
>
> As far as I know the system is reliable and stable while actually running
> LinuxCNC.
>
> There is a similar problem simply loading and unloading the RTAI kernel
> modules (No LinuxCNC code involved), but that takes tens of thousands of
> cycles (typically) to show so may be an entirely different issue.
>
> Unfortunately many existing users are likely to have machines that won't
> work acceptably with preempt-rt and, whilst 2.8 does run on 32-bit Wheezy +
> RTAI I really would like to be offering an upgrade path to a supported OS.
>
> So I don't really know what to do.
>
> --
> atp
> "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is designed
> for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and lunatics."
> — George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912
>
> ___
> Emc-developers mailing list
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> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-developers
>
>
>
> ___
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Re: [Emc-developers] 2.8 Situation

[John Freeborg]

I'd second Rod Webster's suggestion.

Leave RTAI on the curb, focus the project, and move forward.

Those motivated to get RTAI supported again have an obvious work item they can 
contribute to if its important to them.  It can always be brought back in if 
there are folks motivated for it and willing to solve the issues.

FWIW I'm pretty sure we hit the RTAI kernel lock up bug frequently trying to 
restart LinuxCNC without a reboot in between.
Ditching it and moving to PREEMPT RT almost 3 years ago eliminated the hang, 
but we never spent enormous amounts of time trying to root cause it.

Best regards,
  - John


John Freeborg
Sr. Software Engineer | Tormach Inc.

Direct Phone: (608) 850-2564
Email: jfreeb...@tormach.com<mailto:jfreeb...@tormach.com>

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____________________
From: Rod Webster 
Sent: Tuesday, June 9, 2020 6:44 AM
To: EMC developers 
Subject: Re: [Emc-developers] 2.8 Situation

CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not click 
links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content 
is safe.


>Not so, the situation has changed markedly since Alec did the work to make
>RTAI usable on 4.x.x 64-bit kernels.
I appreciate that you have expended enormous effort, But what I thought you
said is that despite that effort, you still have not got a result and you
did not know what to do.

My view is that you release on the platforms you can support.. If the users
want to upgrade and their hardware is not up to it then they can make the
choice to upgrade or not.
You  hold the project back by not doing anything. You can't do that
any longer.

I've been a user for 5 years now and have never used Wheezy or V 2.7.
Neither of them worked for my hardware. The vast majority of users must
surely be in my camp by now. We simply want V 2.8 to be the distribution
version because we want to be forward looking not constrained by
compatibility with old and obsolete systems.

Rod Webster
*1300 896 832*
+61 435 765 611
VMN®
https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.vmn.com.au%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7C20a867f00651478d39af08d80c6aaaff%7C81b7a93284364f828a334cf027748dbd%7C0%7C0%7C637272999590467838&sdata=tw%2FVI149FlEhWHjEhMIwHUCowNd4ADENIv8rPVaKfCY%3D&reserved=0



On Tue, 9 Jun 2020 at 21:23, andy pugh  wrote:

> On Tue, 9 Jun 2020 at 12:02, Rod Webster  wrote:
>
> > It appears there are no prospects to resolve the situation which has
> > clearly been an issue since Wheezy went EOL over two years ago.
>
> Not so, the situation has changed markedly since Alec did the work to make
> RTAI usable on 4.x.x 64-bit kernels.
>
> --
> atp
> "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is designed
> for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and lunatics."
> — George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912
>
> ___
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>

Re: [Emc-developers] 2.8 Situation

[Alec Ari via Emc-developers]

I want what I want because I'm five and I want it now. I spent 6 years working 
my ass off on RTAI and none of you could give a fuck less.


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Re: [Emc-developers] 2.8 Situation

[Jon Elson]

On 06/09/2020 10:03 AM, andy pugh wrote:

On Tue, 9 Jun 2020 at 15:49, Jon Elson  wrote:


Now that you've narrowed it down to abs


It's not abs. That's just the alphabetically first test.

It crashes (more slowly) even if you just do realtime start / halrun -U in
a loop.

Ugh!  Well, Paolo is then likely the only person who could 
debug it.  And, as we know, progress there can be glacial.  
But, if you can strip the issue down to a simple test that 
only requires RTAI, maybe it'll get him

motivated.

Jon


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Re: [Emc-developers] 2.8 Situation

[andy pugh]

On Tue, 9 Jun 2020 at 20:57, Alec Ari via Emc-developers
 wrote:
>
> I want what I want because I'm five and I want it now. I spent 6 years 
> working my ass off on RTAI and none of you could give a fuck less.

I, for one, am extremely grateful for your efforts with RTAI.

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912


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Re: [Emc-developers] 2.8 Situation

[andy pugh]

On Tue, 9 Jun 2020 at 20:59, Jon Elson  wrote:

> But, if you can strip the issue down to a simple test that
> only requires RTAI, maybe it'll get him
> motivated.

I have a simple test, but I am far from sure that it exercises the same bug.

#!/bin/bash
for PASS in $(seq 1 10); do
echo starting pass ${PASS}
insmod /usr/realtime-4.14.174-rtai-amd64/modules/rtai_hal.ko
insmod /usr/realtime-4.14.174-rtai-amd64/modules/rtai_sched.ko
rmmod rtai_sched
rmmod rtai_hal
done

( RTAI kernel and app packages exist in www.linuxcnc.org/temp )

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912


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Re: [Emc-developers] 2.8 Situation

[John Alexander Stewart]

Alec:

Waving hand here!

I know from bitter experience that *some* users of open-source software
expect you do give your 24/7 to them to help solve their problems.

Others are very thankful and considerate of the open-source.

Go with with the 99.9% who are grateful, and, sometimes out-of-the-blue
submit bug-fixes.

Respectfully - John A. Stewart.

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Re: [Emc-developers] 2.8 Situation

[Alec Ari via Emc-developers]

If the crash happens with this, then Poalo would definitely look into it:

#!/bin/bash
for PASS in $(seq 1 10); do
    echo starting pass ${PASS}
    insmod /usr/realtime-4.14.174-rtai-amd64/modules/rtai_hal.ko
    insmod /usr/realtime-4.14.174-rtai-amd64/modules/rtai_sched.ko
    rmmod rtai_sched
    rmmod rtai_hal
done


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Re: [Emc-developers] 2.8 Situation

[Peter C. Wallace]

On Tue, 9 Jun 2020, Alec Ari via Emc-developers wrote:


Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2020 19:56:32 + (UTC)
From: Alec Ari via Emc-developers 
To: EMC developers 
Cc: Alec Ari 
Subject: Re: [Emc-developers] 2.8 Situation

I want what I want because I'm five and I want it now. I spent 6 years working 
my ass off on RTAI and none of you could give a fuck less.


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I for one am very grateful for your work getting 64 bit RTAI working with 
LinuxCNC


Peter Wallace
Mesa Electronics



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Re: [Emc-developers] 2.8 Situation

[Alec Ari via Emc-developers]

So there are a few people here that care about my efforts, which is great and I 
thank you for that, but if RTAI support gets removed from LinuxCNC, it all 
becomes meaningless, and it will most likely never enter the tree again after 
that point. Paolo is not aware of this bug yet, and I don't think that this 
problem has been given a fair chance. It's also a crash that I believe does not 
happen in an actual machine run but rather stays confined to test cases.

If 24/7 tech support came with open-source, I couldn't imagine companies like 
Red Hat getting any business. The adults here understand but I need to stop 
being a masochist trying to reason with selfish children, it never works.


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Re: [Emc-developers] 2.8 Situation

[Alec Ari via Emc-developers]

Thanks Andy. It would be a shame if all of the RTAI support in LinuxCNC 
disappeared because of a bug. Has Paolo looked into this? Has anyone asked him?

On a side note, if your machine has a problem, do you just junk it or try to 
work through it?


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Re: [Emc-developers] 2.8 Situation

[John Thornton]

I'm not seeing where RTAI is being removed from LinuxCNC only 
suggestions so far say release preempt-rt now and hold RTAI ISO until 
the bug can be sorted out. It's not good to hold back at least a portion 
of 2.8 when they are used for different reasons.


I don't know you but I appreciate any efforts spent on making LinuxCNC a 
better software.


JT

On 6/9/2020 3:40 PM, Alec Ari via Emc-developers wrote:

So there are a few people here that care about my efforts, which is great and I 
thank you for that, but if RTAI support gets removed from LinuxCNC, it all 
becomes meaningless, and it will most likely never enter the tree again after 
that point. Paolo is not aware of this bug yet, and I don't think that this 
problem has been given a fair chance. It's also a crash that I believe does not 
happen in an actual machine run but rather stays confined to test cases.

If 24/7 tech support came with open-source, I couldn't imagine companies like 
Red Hat getting any business. The adults here understand but I need to stop 
being a masochist trying to reason with selfish children, it never works.


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Re: [Emc-developers] 2.8 Situation

[andy pugh]

On Tue, 9 Jun 2020 at 21:49, Alec Ari via Emc-developers
 wrote:

> Has Paolo looked into this? Has anyone asked him?

I just subscribed to the RTAI mailing list and asked there.
(But it is moderated, so my message awaits moderation)

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912


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Re: [Emc-developers] 2.8 Situation

[Rod Webster]

I'm not seeing where RTAI is being removed from LinuxCNC only
suggestions so far say release preempt-rt now and hold RTAI ISO until
the bug can be sorted out. It's not good to hold back at least a portion
of 2.8 when they are used for different reasons.

I don't know you but I appreciate any efforts spent on making LinuxCNC a
better software.

I think this is a sensible approach.

One can't become too precious about their own contributions. I know this
first hand after working hundreds of hours over many many months trying to
get Dewey's experimental hpid component working for Plasma. I know Dewey
put as much time into it too. But it didn't make the grade in the real
world and it was never released. It was a big moment for me to throw out
that work and adopt another approach. It was a hard decision. I was then
able to influence the direction taken with Plasmac and it is far better
software because of it because of the experience I had. Plasmac and
Linuxcnc are better for it. Now Linuxcnc leads the world as a plasma
controller rivalling commercial systems costing up to $100k. We have at
least one manufacturer wanting to adopt it.

But Plasmac requires the features of Linuxcnc V 2.8 so until that is the
release version there are significant barriers to entry for users. Please
move forward to release 2.8 on PREEMPT_RT. If RTAI eventually makes the
grade then release it too.

Rod Webster
*1300 896 832*
+61 435 765 611
VMN®
www.vmn.com.au



On Wed, 10 Jun 2020 at 07:56, andy pugh  wrote:

> On Tue, 9 Jun 2020 at 21:49, Alec Ari via Emc-developers
>  wrote:
>
> > Has Paolo looked into this? Has anyone asked him?
>
> I just subscribed to the RTAI mailing list and asked there.
> (But it is moderated, so my message awaits moderation)
>
> --
> atp
> "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
> designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
> lunatics."
> — George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912
>
>
> ___
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Re: [Emc-developers] 2.8 Situation

[Phill Carter]

I don't really understand the need to rush it out right now. I know it has been 
a long time coming but if it seems this bug can be fixed in the foreseeable 
future we may as well wait a bit longer.

If folk need 2.8 it is really not too difficult to get.


> On 10 Jun 2020, at 8:35 am, Rod Webster  wrote:
> 
> I'm not seeing where RTAI is being removed from LinuxCNC only
> suggestions so far say release preempt-rt now and hold RTAI ISO until
> the bug can be sorted out. It's not good to hold back at least a portion
> of 2.8 when they are used for different reasons.
> 
> I don't know you but I appreciate any efforts spent on making LinuxCNC a
> better software.
> 
> I think this is a sensible approach.
> 
> One can't become too precious about their own contributions. I know this
> first hand after working hundreds of hours over many many months trying to
> get Dewey's experimental hpid component working for Plasma. I know Dewey
> put as much time into it too. But it didn't make the grade in the real
> world and it was never released. It was a big moment for me to throw out
> that work and adopt another approach. It was a hard decision. I was then
> able to influence the direction taken with Plasmac and it is far better
> software because of it because of the experience I had. Plasmac and
> Linuxcnc are better for it. Now Linuxcnc leads the world as a plasma
> controller rivalling commercial systems costing up to $100k. We have at
> least one manufacturer wanting to adopt it.
> 
> But Plasmac requires the features of Linuxcnc V 2.8 so until that is the
> release version there are significant barriers to entry for users. Please
> move forward to release 2.8 on PREEMPT_RT. If RTAI eventually makes the
> grade then release it too.
> 
> Rod Webster
> *1300 896 832*
> +61 435 765 611
> VMN®
> www.vmn.com.au
> 
> 
> 
> On Wed, 10 Jun 2020 at 07:56, andy pugh  wrote:
> 
>> On Tue, 9 Jun 2020 at 21:49, Alec Ari via Emc-developers
>>  wrote:
>> 
>>> Has Paolo looked into this? Has anyone asked him?
>> 
>> I just subscribed to the RTAI mailing list and asked there.
>> (But it is moderated, so my message awaits moderation)
>> 
>> --
>> atp
>> "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
>> designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
>> lunatics."
>> — George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912
>> 
>> 
>> ___
>> Emc-developers mailing list
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>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-developers
>> 
> 
> ___
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Re: [Emc-developers] 2.8 Situation

[Alec Ari via Emc-developers]

Well, how often are isos made? If it's every 5 years or something like that, 
then I'd say what's a few more weeks or a month? If Paolo doesn't respond or 
can't figure it out in time for us, and there's a big need for a new iso right 
away, then leaving it out of the disc image wouldn't be a bad option. Just 
don't be trigger happy to drop RTAI support just because _you_ don't need it.

I'm not even a machinist, I don't do anything with LinuxCNC except the RTOS 
side of things, but I don't see LinuxCNC as a useless project. That's what sync 
(whoever he is) on IRC doesn't understand. There's more to this world than just 
_him_. A prime example of the selfish children I was referring to in my 
previous email. RTAI offers lower latency than PREEMPT_RT and for some 
applications, PREEMPT_RT will not make the cut.

I'll post the script right now from Andy to the RTAI mailing list and see what 
happens.


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Re: [Emc-developers] 2.8 Situation

[Rod Webster]

>I don't really understand the need to rush it out right now. I know it has
been a long time coming but if it seems this bug can be fixed in the
foreseeable future we may as well wait a bit longer.
>If folk need 2.8 it is really not too difficult to get.

But Phill, we said that two years ago... Its time to call it.
How many are deterred from trying linuxcnc because its so dated?

Rod Webster
*1300 896 832*
+61 435 765 611
VMN®
www.vmn.com.au



On Wed, 10 Jun 2020 at 09:46, Alec Ari via Emc-developers <
emc-developers@lists.sourceforge.net> wrote:

> Well, how often are isos made? If it's every 5 years or something like
> that, then I'd say what's a few more weeks or a month? If Paolo doesn't
> respond or can't figure it out in time for us, and there's a big need for a
> new iso right away, then leaving it out of the disc image wouldn't be a bad
> option. Just don't be trigger happy to drop RTAI support just because _you_
> don't need it.
>
> I'm not even a machinist, I don't do anything with LinuxCNC except the
> RTOS side of things, but I don't see LinuxCNC as a useless project. That's
> what sync (whoever he is) on IRC doesn't understand. There's more to this
> world than just _him_. A prime example of the selfish children I was
> referring to in my previous email. RTAI offers lower latency than
> PREEMPT_RT and for some applications, PREEMPT_RT will not make the cut.
>
> I'll post the script right now from Andy to the RTAI mailing list and see
> what happens.
>
>
> ___
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>

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Re: [Emc-developers] 2.8 Situation

[Leonardo Marsaglia]

Not even close from being a developer. But I have to say we have three
machines in production five days a week. They are all working with Wheezy
and RTAI. I've tried running PREEMPT-RT with Stretch on the Mazak and I had
serious latency problems that made the system  impossible to work with so I
think there's a lot of people interested in having RTAI available as
always.

Leonardo Marsaglia

El mar., 9 jun. 2020 21:01, Rod Webster  escribió:

> >I don't really understand the need to rush it out right now. I know it has
> been a long time coming but if it seems this bug can be fixed in the
> foreseeable future we may as well wait a bit longer.
> >If folk need 2.8 it is really not too difficult to get.
>
> But Phill, we said that two years ago... Its time to call it.
> How many are deterred from trying linuxcnc because its so dated?
>
> Rod Webster
> *1300 896 832*
> +61 435 765 611
> VMN®
> www.vmn.com.au
>
>
>
> On Wed, 10 Jun 2020 at 09:46, Alec Ari via Emc-developers <
> emc-developers@lists.sourceforge.net> wrote:
>
> > Well, how often are isos made? If it's every 5 years or something like
> > that, then I'd say what's a few more weeks or a month? If Paolo doesn't
> > respond or can't figure it out in time for us, and there's a big need
> for a
> > new iso right away, then leaving it out of the disc image wouldn't be a
> bad
> > option. Just don't be trigger happy to drop RTAI support just because
> _you_
> > don't need it.
> >
> > I'm not even a machinist, I don't do anything with LinuxCNC except the
> > RTOS side of things, but I don't see LinuxCNC as a useless project.
> That's
> > what sync (whoever he is) on IRC doesn't understand. There's more to this
> > world than just _him_. A prime example of the selfish children I was
> > referring to in my previous email. RTAI offers lower latency than
> > PREEMPT_RT and for some applications, PREEMPT_RT will not make the cut.
> >
> > I'll post the script right now from Andy to the RTAI mailing list and see
> > what happens.
> >
> >
> > ___
> > Emc-developers mailing list
> > Emc-developers@lists.sourceforge.net
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-developers
> >
>
> ___
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Re: [Emc-developers] 2.8 Situation

[Phill Carter]

How many are deterred from trying linuxcnc because its so dated?

I didn't realize we into looking at it from a marketing angle and 2.8 is not 
dated and is easy to get.

> On 10 Jun 2020, at 8:35 am, Rod Webster  wrote:
> 
>  We have at
> least one manufacturer wanting to adopt it.

Well maybe they could poke some resources towards helping instead of coming 
along for a free ride.
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Re: [Emc-developers] 2.8 Situation

[Leonardo Marsaglia]

Needless to say, I'm more than thankful to everyone here for the efforts.

El mar., 9 jun. 2020 21:13, Leonardo Marsaglia 
escribió:

> Not even close from being a developer. But I have to say we have three
> machines in production five days a week. They are all working with Wheezy
> and RTAI. I've tried running PREEMPT-RT with Stretch on the Mazak and I had
> serious latency problems that made the system  impossible to work with so I
> think there's a lot of people interested in having RTAI available as
> always.
>
> Leonardo Marsaglia
>
> El mar., 9 jun. 2020 21:01, Rod Webster  escribió:
>
>> >I don't really understand the need to rush it out right now. I know it
>> has
>> been a long time coming but if it seems this bug can be fixed in the
>> foreseeable future we may as well wait a bit longer.
>> >If folk need 2.8 it is really not too difficult to get.
>>
>> But Phill, we said that two years ago... Its time to call it.
>> How many are deterred from trying linuxcnc because its so dated?
>>
>> Rod Webster
>> *1300 896 832*
>> +61 435 765 611
>> VMN®
>> www.vmn.com.au
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, 10 Jun 2020 at 09:46, Alec Ari via Emc-developers <
>> emc-developers@lists.sourceforge.net> wrote:
>>
>> > Well, how often are isos made? If it's every 5 years or something like
>> > that, then I'd say what's a few more weeks or a month? If Paolo doesn't
>> > respond or can't figure it out in time for us, and there's a big need
>> for a
>> > new iso right away, then leaving it out of the disc image wouldn't be a
>> bad
>> > option. Just don't be trigger happy to drop RTAI support just because
>> _you_
>> > don't need it.
>> >
>> > I'm not even a machinist, I don't do anything with LinuxCNC except the
>> > RTOS side of things, but I don't see LinuxCNC as a useless project.
>> That's
>> > what sync (whoever he is) on IRC doesn't understand. There's more to
>> this
>> > world than just _him_. A prime example of the selfish children I was
>> > referring to in my previous email. RTAI offers lower latency than
>> > PREEMPT_RT and for some applications, PREEMPT_RT will not make the cut.
>> >
>> > I'll post the script right now from Andy to the RTAI mailing list and
>> see
>> > what happens.
>> >
>> >
>> > ___
>> > Emc-developers mailing list
>> > Emc-developers@lists.sourceforge.net
>> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-developers
>> >
>>
>> ___
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>> Emc-developers@lists.sourceforge.net
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-developers
>>
>

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Re: [Emc-developers] 2.8 Situation

[Rod Webster]

>Well maybe they could poke some resources towards helping instead of
coming along for a free ride.

Well they are more than happy to do that and have offered to engage an
experienced developer several times but nobody seems to care... and emails
remain unanswered...
Its a long haul to understand the Linuxcnc internal code in the EMC folder
as you know. I am trying..

But they won't be poking resources at RTAI.


Rod Webster
*1300 896 832*
+61 435 765 611
VMN®
www.vmn.com.au



On Wed, 10 Jun 2020 at 10:15, Leonardo Marsaglia 
wrote:

> Needless to say, I'm more than thankful to everyone here for the efforts.
>
> El mar., 9 jun. 2020 21:13, Leonardo Marsaglia 
> escribió:
>
> > Not even close from being a developer. But I have to say we have three
> > machines in production five days a week. They are all working with Wheezy
> > and RTAI. I've tried running PREEMPT-RT with Stretch on the Mazak and I
> had
> > serious latency problems that made the system  impossible to work with
> so I
> > think there's a lot of people interested in having RTAI available as
> > always.
> >
> > Leonardo Marsaglia
> >
> > El mar., 9 jun. 2020 21:01, Rod Webster  escribió:
> >
> >> >I don't really understand the need to rush it out right now. I know it
> >> has
> >> been a long time coming but if it seems this bug can be fixed in the
> >> foreseeable future we may as well wait a bit longer.
> >> >If folk need 2.8 it is really not too difficult to get.
> >>
> >> But Phill, we said that two years ago... Its time to call it.
> >> How many are deterred from trying linuxcnc because its so dated?
> >>
> >> Rod Webster
> >> *1300 896 832*
> >> +61 435 765 611
> >> VMN®
> >> www.vmn.com.au
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Wed, 10 Jun 2020 at 09:46, Alec Ari via Emc-developers <
> >> emc-developers@lists.sourceforge.net> wrote:
> >>
> >> > Well, how often are isos made? If it's every 5 years or something like
> >> > that, then I'd say what's a few more weeks or a month? If Paolo
> doesn't
> >> > respond or can't figure it out in time for us, and there's a big need
> >> for a
> >> > new iso right away, then leaving it out of the disc image wouldn't be
> a
> >> bad
> >> > option. Just don't be trigger happy to drop RTAI support just because
> >> _you_
> >> > don't need it.
> >> >
> >> > I'm not even a machinist, I don't do anything with LinuxCNC except the
> >> > RTOS side of things, but I don't see LinuxCNC as a useless project.
> >> That's
> >> > what sync (whoever he is) on IRC doesn't understand. There's more to
> >> this
> >> > world than just _him_. A prime example of the selfish children I was
> >> > referring to in my previous email. RTAI offers lower latency than
> >> > PREEMPT_RT and for some applications, PREEMPT_RT will not make the
> cut.
> >> >
> >> > I'll post the script right now from Andy to the RTAI mailing list and
> >> see
> >> > what happens.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > ___
> >> > Emc-developers mailing list
> >> > Emc-developers@lists.sourceforge.net
> >> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-developers
> >> >
> >>
> >> ___
> >> Emc-developers mailing list
> >> Emc-developers@lists.sourceforge.net
> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-developers
> >>
> >
>
> ___
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Re: [Emc-developers] 2.8 Situation

[Gene Heskett]

On Tuesday 09 June 2020 20:24:09 Rod Webster wrote:

> >Well maybe they could poke some resources towards helping instead of
>
> coming along for a free ride.
>
> Well they are more than happy to do that and have offered to engage an
> experienced developer several times but nobody seems to care... and
> emails remain unanswered...
> Its a long haul to understand the Linuxcnc internal code in the EMC
> folder as you know. I am trying..
>
> But they won't be poking resources at RTAI.
>
>
> Rod Webster
> *1300 896 832*
> +61 435 765 611
> VMN®
> www.vmn.com.au
>
>
>
> On Wed, 10 Jun 2020 at 10:15, Leonardo Marsaglia
> 
>
> wrote:
> > Needless to say, I'm more than thankful to everyone here for the
> > efforts.
> >
> > El mar., 9 jun. 2020 21:13, Leonardo Marsaglia
> > 
> >
> > escribió:
> > > Not even close from being a developer. But I have to say we have
> > > three machines in production five days a week. They are all
> > > working with Wheezy and RTAI. I've tried running PREEMPT-RT with
> > > Stretch on the Mazak and I
> >
> > had
> >
> > > serious latency problems that made the system  impossible to work
> > > with
> >
> > so I
> >
> > > think there's a lot of people interested in having RTAI available
> > > as always.
> > >
> > > Leonardo Marsaglia
> > >
> > > El mar., 9 jun. 2020 21:01, Rod Webster  escribió:
> > >> >I don't really understand the need to rush it out right now. I
> > >> > know it
> > >>
> > >> has
> > >> been a long time coming but if it seems this bug can be fixed in
> > >> the foreseeable future we may as well wait a bit longer.
> > >>
> > >> >If folk need 2.8 it is really not too difficult to get.
> > >>
> > >> But Phill, we said that two years ago... Its time to call it.
> > >> How many are deterred from trying linuxcnc because its so dated?
> > >>
Why? Has anyone indicated a reason why not? If some has, perhaps this 
thread should be exploring ways to aleaviate that perceived pain.
> > >> Rod Webster
> > >> *1300 896 832*
> > >> +61 435 765 611
> > >> VMN®
> > >> www.vmn.com.au
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> On Wed, 10 Jun 2020 at 09:46, Alec Ari via Emc-developers <
> > >>
> > >> emc-developers@lists.sourceforge.net> wrote:
> > >> > Well, how often are isos made? If it's every 5 years or
> > >> > something like that, then I'd say what's a few more weeks or a
> > >> > month? If Paolo
> >
> > doesn't
> >
> > >> > respond or can't figure it out in time for us, and there's a
> > >> > big need
> > >>
> > >> for a
> > >>
> > >> > new iso right away, then leaving it out of the disc image
> > >> > wouldn't be
> >
> > a
> >
> > >> bad
> > >>
> > >> > option. Just don't be trigger happy to drop RTAI support just
> > >> > because
> > >>
> > >> _you_
> > >>
> > >> > don't need it.
> > >> >
> > >> > I'm not even a machinist, I don't do anything with LinuxCNC
> > >> > except the RTOS side of things, but I don't see LinuxCNC as a
> > >> > useless project.
> > >>
> > >> That's
> > >>
> > >> > what sync (whoever he is) on IRC doesn't understand. There's
> > >> > more to
> > >>
> > >> this
> > >>
> > >> > world than just _him_. A prime example of the selfish children
> > >> > I was referring to in my previous email. RTAI offers lower
> > >> > latency than PREEMPT_RT and for some applications, PREEMPT_RT
> > >> > will not make the
> >
> > cut.
> >
> > >> > I'll post the script right now from Andy to the RTAI mailing
> > >> > list and
> > >>
> > >> see
> > >>
> > >> > what happens.
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > ___
> > >> > Emc-developers mailing list
> > >> > Emc-developers@lists.sourceforge.net
> > >> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-developers
> > >>
> > >> ___
> > >> Emc-developers mailing list
> > >> Emc-developers@lists.sourceforge.net
> > >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-developers
> >
> > ___
> > Emc-developers mailing list
> > Emc-developers@lists.sourceforge.net
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-developers
>
> ___
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Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-developers] 2.8 Situation

[Rod Webster]

>Why? Has anyone indicated a reason why not? If some has, perhaps this
>thread should be exploring ways to aleaviate that perceived pain.

I think that is a different issue which might warrant a separate thread. A
formal mechanism to connect sponsors with interested developers would be
useful.
But if there is somebody here that would be interested in some paid
sponsored work and knows their way around the /src/emc folder please email
me direct.
I also know  a second party offering to sponsor some work..

Rod Webster
*1300 896 832*
+61 435 765 611
VMN®
www.vmn.com.au



On Wed, 10 Jun 2020 at 10:59, Gene Heskett  wrote:

> On Tuesday 09 June 2020 20:24:09 Rod Webster wrote:
>
> > >Well maybe they could poke some resources towards helping instead of
> >
> > coming along for a free ride.
> >
> > Well they are more than happy to do that and have offered to engage an
> > experienced developer several times but nobody seems to care... and
> > emails remain unanswered...
> > Its a long haul to understand the Linuxcnc internal code in the EMC
> > folder as you know. I am trying..
> >
> > But they won't be poking resources at RTAI.
> >
> >
> > Rod Webster
> > *1300 896 832*
> > +61 435 765 611
> > VMN®
> > www.vmn.com.au
> >
> >
> >
> > On Wed, 10 Jun 2020 at 10:15, Leonardo Marsaglia
> > 
> >
> > wrote:
> > > Needless to say, I'm more than thankful to everyone here for the
> > > efforts.
> > >
> > > El mar., 9 jun. 2020 21:13, Leonardo Marsaglia
> > > 
> > >
> > > escribió:
> > > > Not even close from being a developer. But I have to say we have
> > > > three machines in production five days a week. They are all
> > > > working with Wheezy and RTAI. I've tried running PREEMPT-RT with
> > > > Stretch on the Mazak and I
> > >
> > > had
> > >
> > > > serious latency problems that made the system  impossible to work
> > > > with
> > >
> > > so I
> > >
> > > > think there's a lot of people interested in having RTAI available
> > > > as always.
> > > >
> > > > Leonardo Marsaglia
> > > >
> > > > El mar., 9 jun. 2020 21:01, Rod Webster  escribió:
> > > >> >I don't really understand the need to rush it out right now. I
> > > >> > know it
> > > >>
> > > >> has
> > > >> been a long time coming but if it seems this bug can be fixed in
> > > >> the foreseeable future we may as well wait a bit longer.
> > > >>
> > > >> >If folk need 2.8 it is really not too difficult to get.
> > > >>
> > > >> But Phill, we said that two years ago... Its time to call it.
> > > >> How many are deterred from trying linuxcnc because its so dated?
> > > >>
> Why? Has anyone indicated a reason why not? If some has, perhaps this
> thread should be exploring ways to aleaviate that perceived pain.
> > > >> Rod Webster
> > > >> *1300 896 832*
> > > >> +61 435 765 611
> > > >> VMN®
> > > >> www.vmn.com.au
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> On Wed, 10 Jun 2020 at 09:46, Alec Ari via Emc-developers <
> > > >>
> > > >> emc-developers@lists.sourceforge.net> wrote:
> > > >> > Well, how often are isos made? If it's every 5 years or
> > > >> > something like that, then I'd say what's a few more weeks or a
> > > >> > month? If Paolo
> > >
> > > doesn't
> > >
> > > >> > respond or can't figure it out in time for us, and there's a
> > > >> > big need
> > > >>
> > > >> for a
> > > >>
> > > >> > new iso right away, then leaving it out of the disc image
> > > >> > wouldn't be
> > >
> > > a
> > >
> > > >> bad
> > > >>
> > > >> > option. Just don't be trigger happy to drop RTAI support just
> > > >> > because
> > > >>
> > > >> _you_
> > > >>
> > > >> > don't need it.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > I'm not even a machinist, I don't do anything with LinuxCNC
> > > >> > except the RTOS side of things, but I don't see LinuxCNC as a
> > > >> > useless project.
> > > >>
> > > >> That's
> > > >>
> > > >> > what sync (whoever he is) on IRC doesn't understand. There's
> > > >> > more to
> > > >>
> > > >> this
> > > >>
> > > >> > world than just _him_. A prime example of the selfish children
> > > >> > I was referring to in my previous email. RTAI offers lower
> > > >> > latency than PREEMPT_RT and for some applications, PREEMPT_RT
> > > >> > will not make the
> > >
> > > cut.
> > >
> > > >> > I'll post the script right now from Andy to the RTAI mailing
> > > >> > list and
> > > >>
> > > >> see
> > > >>
> > > >> > what happens.
> > > >> >
> > > >> >
> > > >> > ___
> > > >> > Emc-developers mailing list
> > > >> > Emc-developers@lists.sourceforge.net
> > > >> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-developers
> > > >>
> > > >> ___
> > > >> Emc-developers mailing list
> > > >> Emc-developers@lists.sourceforge.net
> > > >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-developers
> > >
> > > ___
> > > Emc-developers mailing list
> > > Emc-developers@lists.sourceforge.net
> > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-developers
> >

Re: [Emc-developers] 2.8 Situation

[Jon Elson]

On 06/09/2020 03:07 PM, andy pugh wrote:


I have a simple test, but I am far from sure that it exercises the same bug.

#!/bin/bash
for PASS in $(seq 1 10); do
 echo starting pass ${PASS}
 insmod /usr/realtime-4.14.174-rtai-amd64/modules/rtai_hal.ko
 insmod /usr/realtime-4.14.174-rtai-amd64/modules/rtai_sched.ko
 rmmod rtai_sched
 rmmod rtai_hal
done

( RTAI kernel and app packages exist in www.linuxcnc.org/temp )

So, this doesn't actually need the module to even be 
executed!  Just install the module and

then remove it, and rtai locks up eventually?  Wow!

Jon


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Re: [Emc-developers] 2.8 Situation

[andy pugh]

On Wed, 10 Jun 2020 at 03:41, Jon Elson  wrote:
> So, this doesn't actually need the module to even be
> executed!  Just install the module and
> then remove it, and rtai locks up eventually?  Wow!

Yes, but, to be clear, this is typically taking tens of thousands of
cycles, whereas I found out yesterday that LinuxCNC 2.7 running RTAI5
and kernel 4.14.175-rtai-amd64 can lock up after 71 cycles of running
the abs.0 test.

(It is interesting that 2.7 appears to be worse, but this is likely
the sort of issue that varies from compile to compile and the phase of
the moon. )

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912


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Re: [Emc-developers] 2.8 Situation

[andy pugh]

On Wed, 10 Jun 2020 at 01:24, Rod Webster  wrote:

> Well they are more than happy to do that and have offered to engage an
> experienced developer several times but nobody seems to care... and emails
> remain unanswered...

Who have they emailed?

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912


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Re: [Emc-developers] 2.8 Situation

[Rod Webster]

>Who have they emailed?

Andy, I wrote the emails. I don't think it's appropriate to resort to a
public name and shame. To be fair one did reply but then the conversation
stopped a month ago.
All I can say is that the potential sponsors are well resourced and are
very serious about their CNC manufacturing project and would like to use
Linuxcnc. From what I see, my email  address is appended to this post so if
there are interested parties, please email me privately. I'm trying to get
my head around GIT so I can make more contributions but its hard work.

>I didn't realize we into looking at it from a marketing angle and 2.8 is
not dated and is easy to get.

Phill, each is entitled to their opinion about the ease of deploying
LinuxCNC but "easy to get" is not what I am hearing from those willing  to
give LinuxCNC a go with no prior experience.

As for marketing, I promote Linuxnc at every available opportunity. I would
like to think that all of us do the same. Without new users, you won't get
people making contributions to the project's future. Some might even become
new developers able to help with code. Life is all about marketing.

Might I remind you the official docs talk about other ways to contribute

and I have put a lot of effort into all of those ways.

Anyway, none of this conversation is relevant to the original topic and is
just a distraction from the real issue. That is: please get a release of
some kind out as soon as possible. It might not be perfect, It might not
include all possible kernels, it might not please everybody but eventually
some action is required in preference to no action. I believe thats where
we are now.

Rod Webster
*1300 896 832*
+61 435 765 611
VMN®
www.vmn.com.au



On Wed, 10 Jun 2020 at 18:12, andy pugh  wrote:

> On Wed, 10 Jun 2020 at 01:24, Rod Webster  wrote:
>
> > Well they are more than happy to do that and have offered to engage an
> > experienced developer several times but nobody seems to care... and
> emails
> > remain unanswered...
>
> Who have they emailed?
>
> --
> atp
> "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
> designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
> lunatics."
> — George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912
>
>
> ___
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Re: [Emc-developers] 2.8 Situation

[Thomas J Powderly]

Thanks Alec, I know its hard work and your work _is_ appreciated

tomp

On 6/10/20 2:56 AM, Alec Ari via Emc-developers wrote:

I want what I want because I'm five and I want it now. I spent 6 years working 
my ass off on RTAI and none of you could give a fuck less.


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Re: [Emc-developers] 2.8 Situation

[Stuart Stevenson]

Alec,

I truly appreciate your contributions BUT have to chuckle at one comment.

you can ignore the following comments as they are just in fun

On 6/10/20 2:56 AM, Alec Ari via Emc-developers wrote:

> > I want what I want because I'm five and I want it now. I spent 6 years
> working my ass off on RTAI and none of you could give a fuck less.
> >
>

If you take the above comment out of context it sounds like the Derek Jeter
commercial with the little girl.

He says how long have you had this dream?
She says 10 years.
He says wow you are 6 and have had this dream for 10 years.



Hope you can smile at this comment.

regards
Stuart


Addressee is the intended audience.
If you are not the addressee then my consent is not given for you to read
this email furthermore it is my wish you would close this without saving or
reading, and cease and desist from saving or opening my private
correspondence.
Thank you for honoring my wish.

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Re: [Emc-developers] 2.8 Situation

[N]

> I'm not seeing where RTAI is being removed from LinuxCNC only 
> suggestions so far say release preempt-rt now and hold RTAI ISO until 
> the bug can be sorted out. ...

I would have chosen this path to. Release now and hold back until bug sorted 
out.


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Re: [Emc-developers] 2.8 Situation

[Bari]

Well paying offers for LCNC dev work should be taken quickly. I've seen 
offers of hundreds of $ US for many days or even weeks of work.


On 6/9/20 8:12 PM, Rod Webster wrote:

formal mechanism to connect sponsors with interested developers would be
useful.
But if there is somebody here that would be interested in some paid
sponsored work and knows their way around the /src/emc folder please email
me direct.
I also know  a second party offering to sponsor some work..

Rod Webster
*1300 896 832*
+61 435 765 611
VMN®
www.vmn.com.au



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Re: [Emc-developers] 2.8 Situation

[Alec Ari via Emc-developers]

If you are "deterred from trying linuxcnc because its so dated" then go use 
Mach4 so I don't need to listen to your complaining :)

X.org was old, so Wayland was invented. Sysvinit was old so SystemD was 
invented. If you don't like the GUI for LinuxCNC because it looks old, you can 
make your interface look super pretty with qtpyvcp. You know, I think we should 
hold a contest. Whoever comes up with the design that's voted best among 
Millennials and Gen Zers wins, and becomes the new default axis window!


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Re: [Emc-developers] 2.8 Situation

[andy pugh]

On Wed, 10 Jun 2020 at 20:48, Alec Ari via Emc-developers
 wrote:

> X.org was old, so Wayland was invented. Sysvinit was old so SystemD was 
> invented. If you don't like the GUI for LinuxCNC because it looks old, you 
> can make your interface look super pretty with qtpyvcp. You know, I think we 
> should hold a contest. Whoever comes up with the design that's voted best 
> among Millennials and Gen Zers wins, and becomes the new default axis window!

I know you are being sarcastic, but I suspect the winner would be the
oddly-named "Probe Basic"

https://www.qtpyvcp.com/showcase/mill_vcps.html

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912


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Re: [Emc-developers] 2.8 Situation

[Rod Webster]

>Well paying offers for LCNC dev work should be taken quickly. I've seen
>offers of hundreds of $ US for many days or even weeks of work.

Bari, We thought it would be well into the thousands and probably involve
weeks of work to create jerk limited motion profiles in the XY plane
There is one unrelated small project which would be to add another field to
state tags to hold the arc radius.

>I know you are being sarcastic, but I suspect the winner would be the
>oddly-named "Probe Basic"

I do know the team there are working on the infrastructure every day. Its
nice but it lacks a plasma version. :(
GUI is another project to tackle...  I have not thought about what features
that might require...

Rod Webster
*1300 896 832*
+61 435 765 611
VMN®
www.vmn.com.au



On Thu, 11 Jun 2020 at 05:52, andy pugh  wrote:

> On Wed, 10 Jun 2020 at 20:48, Alec Ari via Emc-developers
>  wrote:
>
> > X.org was old, so Wayland was invented. Sysvinit was old so SystemD was
> invented. If you don't like the GUI for LinuxCNC because it looks old, you
> can make your interface look super pretty with qtpyvcp. You know, I think
> we should hold a contest. Whoever comes up with the design that's voted
> best among Millennials and Gen Zers wins, and becomes the new default axis
> window!
>
> I know you are being sarcastic, but I suspect the winner would be the
> oddly-named "Probe Basic"
>
> https://www.qtpyvcp.com/showcase/mill_vcps.html
>
> --
> atp
> "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
> designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
> lunatics."
> — George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912
>
>
> ___
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> Emc-developers@lists.sourceforge.net
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Re: [Emc-developers] 2.8 Situation

[Alec Ari via Emc-developers]

Paolo just emailed me and can't recreate the RTAI crash on his end. I asked 
about his configuration and I'll be trying a few more things.

Alec


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Re: [Emc-developers] 2.8 Situation

[andy pugh]

On Wed, 10 Jun 2020 at 23:19, Alec Ari via Emc-developers
 wrote:
>
> Paolo just emailed me and can't recreate the RTAI crash on his end. I asked 
> about his configuration and I'll be trying a few more things.

Yes, his config would be rather useful, if so.

In other news, a report from the IRC:
 andypugh, I just ran your test five times on a Core2Duo with
4.14.174-rtai. It locked up at passes 353, 71, 32, 1156, and 148. 1156
was odd; the script stalled, the GUI was still responsive, but most
things I tried didn't work. I think it killed disk access.

This is the insmod/rmmod loop here:
https://pastebin.ubuntu.com/p/7hgtP9P2WM/ which typically takes 10,000
+ cycles to crash my machine,


-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912


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Re: [Emc-developers] 2.8 Situation

[Jon Elson]

On 06/10/2020 05:19 PM, Alec Ari via Emc-developers wrote:

Paolo just emailed me and can't recreate the RTAI crash on his end. I asked 
about his configuration and I'll be trying a few more things.


Yeah, I was afraid of that.  He has some "magic sauce" in 
his systems that nobody else knows about.


Jon


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Re: [Emc-developers] 2.8 Situation

[Reinhard]

Hi,

On Mittwoch, 10. Juni 2020, 21:38:16 CEST Alec Ari via Emc-developers wrote:
> X.org was old, so Wayland was invented. Sysvinit was old so SystemD was
> invented. If you don't like the GUI for LinuxCNC because it looks old, you
> can make your interface look super pretty with qtpyvcp.

Even if this was meant sarcastic ...

When I started with linuxcnc, I had only litte change requirements to gui 
(well, in my point of view). Not for being old, but for functional 
requirements.
Anyway - I started with release, but I had to realize, that neither glade-, 
nor qt-designer-extensions from lc worked on my debian installation. Asking 
for help in forum, I was told, that the designers will work with rip-
installation.
RIP-installation? - wtf - I wanted to start with linuxcnc, not bring it to 
cementery

What ever - when I understand the second meaning of rip, I thought: why should 
I use a release, when I have to recompile all the stuff by myself?
So I changed to git-master (then) and started to use rip-installation. Qt-
designer-extensions stil don't work on my debian box and gscreen uses old 
designer (which had to be installed from source) and old python ...
One day I was fatigued from corrupting my debian and using extensions from lc 
that don't really work, so I started to create my own gui.

Meanwhile I arranged myself for using non-debian stuff on my debian box and I'm 
fine with master.
So I don't care any more for releases.
Never wanted to become a developer for lc, but I had so strange errors, that 
nobody seemed to be interested in, that I had to jump in the mud.

If other users have similar experiences, then a lot of precious developer time 
has been wasted on releases, that don't have much importance.
I believe, that developer time spent on pushing things ahead makes more sense, 
than spending it on releases.


cheers Reinhard




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Re: [Emc-developers] 2.8 Situation

[Rod Webster]

>If other users have similar experiences, then a lot of precious developer
time
>has been wasted on releases, that don't have much importance.
>I believe, that developer time spent on pushing things ahead makes more
sense,
>than spending it on releases.

I think that sums it up nicely.
Look to the future I say!

Rod Webster
*1300 896 832*
+61 435 765 611
VMN®
www.vmn.com.au



On Thu, 11 Jun 2020 at 12:33, Reinhard 
wrote:

> Hi,
>
> On Mittwoch, 10. Juni 2020, 21:38:16 CEST Alec Ari via Emc-developers
> wrote:
> > X.org was old, so Wayland was invented. Sysvinit was old so SystemD was
> > invented. If you don't like the GUI for LinuxCNC because it looks old,
> you
> > can make your interface look super pretty with qtpyvcp.
>
> Even if this was meant sarcastic ...
>
> When I started with linuxcnc, I had only litte change requirements to gui
> (well, in my point of view). Not for being old, but for functional
> requirements.
> Anyway - I started with release, but I had to realize, that neither
> glade-,
> nor qt-designer-extensions from lc worked on my debian installation.
> Asking
> for help in forum, I was told, that the designers will work with rip-
> installation.
> RIP-installation? - wtf - I wanted to start with linuxcnc, not bring it to
> cementery
>
> What ever - when I understand the second meaning of rip, I thought: why
> should
> I use a release, when I have to recompile all the stuff by myself?
> So I changed to git-master (then) and started to use rip-installation. Qt-
> designer-extensions stil don't work on my debian box and gscreen uses old
> designer (which had to be installed from source) and old python ...
> One day I was fatigued from corrupting my debian and using extensions from
> lc
> that don't really work, so I started to create my own gui.
>
> Meanwhile I arranged myself for using non-debian stuff on my debian box
> and I'm
> fine with master.
> So I don't care any more for releases.
> Never wanted to become a developer for lc, but I had so strange errors,
> that
> nobody seemed to be interested in, that I had to jump in the mud.
>
> If other users have similar experiences, then a lot of precious developer
> time
> has been wasted on releases, that don't have much importance.
> I believe, that developer time spent on pushing things ahead makes more
> sense,
> than spending it on releases.
>
>
> cheers Reinhard
>
>
>
>
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Re: [Emc-developers] 2.8 Situation

[Jon Elson]

On 06/10/2020 09:33 PM, Reinhard wrote:
RIP-installation? - wtf - I wanted to start with linuxcnc, 
not bring it to cementery
RIP is "Run In Place".  This allows you to have several 
versions of LinuxCNC on the same computer.
It is usually used by developers who have compiled LinuxCNC 
from the source code.
There is a script that sets up all the right environment 
variables to point to the right directories.


Jon


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Re: [Emc-developers] 2.8 Situation

[Phill Carter]

> On 11 Jun 2020, at 12:54 pm, Rod Webster  wrote:
>  
>> On Thu, 11 Jun 2020 at 12:33, Reinhard  
>> wrote:
>>  
>> If other users have similar experiences, then a lot of precious developer
>> time 
>> has been wasted on releases, that don't have much importance.
>> I believe, that developer time spent on pushing things ahead makes more
>>  sense,
>> than spending it on releases.
> 
> I think that sums it up nicely.
> Look to the future I say!


But I thought you were pushing for a release Rod. ;-)

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Re: [Emc-developers] 2.8 Situation

[Curtis Dutton]

I'm not familiar exactly with the release process as I'm a RIP guy on all
of my machines and run master.

One of the open source projects I work with (racket-lang) uses a monthly
release schedule with minor releases and then a major release once per
year. They are academics and have funding so doing a monthly release sounds
too hard. However would something along those lines be appropriate? Perhaps
quartly or bi-annual releases?

Is generating a release highly difficult? If so we should work on making
that easier and ideally automatic.

Master functionality vs 2.7 or 2.6 is a very large difference and no matter
when the next release occurs, it is going to be painful for most users to
upgrade. This next release will almost be more of a 3.0 than anything. The
sooner that bandaid gets pulled off the better.

Users need to be accustomed to frequent releases and frequent upgrades if
not just to get them used to doing it.

Now we definitely want RTAI in there, many users need it and linuxcnc needs
as many users as it can get.

Is it possible to get RTAI on a point release after the fact (unless the
bug gets fixed sooner?) Why does the release need to be all or nothing? Can
we do a special RTAI release later as soon as the bug gets fixed just
because it is a special case?



On Thu, Jun 11, 2020 at 12:58 AM Phill Carter 
wrote:

>
>
> > On 11 Jun 2020, at 12:54 pm, Rod Webster  wrote:
> >
> >> On Thu, 11 Jun 2020 at 12:33, Reinhard 
> wrote:
> >>
> >> If other users have similar experiences, then a lot of precious
> developer
> >> time
> >> has been wasted on releases, that don't have much importance.
> >> I believe, that developer time spent on pushing things ahead makes more
> >>  sense,
> >> than spending it on releases.
> >
> > I think that sums it up nicely.
> > Look to the future I say!
>
>
> But I thought you were pushing for a release Rod. ;-)
>
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Re: [Emc-developers] 2.8 Situation

[Reinhard]

On Donnerstag, 11. Juni 2020, 18:57:56 CEST Curtis Dutton wrote:
> I'm a RIP guy on all
> of my machines and run master.

So what is wrong with that?
I guess, that's almost true for most users of linuxcnc


On Donnerstag, 11. Juni 2020, 18:57:56 CEST Curtis Dutton wrote:
> no matter
> when the next release occurs, it is going to be painful for most users to
> upgrade.

That taken for true, I believe, that there are many users, that won't upgrade.


On Donnerstag, 11. Juni 2020, 18:57:56 CEST Curtis Dutton wrote:
> Users need to be accustomed to frequent releases and frequent upgrades if
> not just to get them used to doing it.

Really? And if they really NEED that frequent updates, are they willing to pay 
for it?
I'm sure, Andy and others already spent lots of hours in extra release issues 
and I'm not sure, that this effort is appreciated by "default" users.

Most (if not all) developers are volonteers, who spend their leisure time on 
project. Time is very very precious - for everybody.
So why waste that precious time on shady subjects like release?

May be academic people think different - don't know. Sometimes I get the 
impression, that they don't know/care about the value of time.

To me, linuxcnc looks like an academic research on "how to extend obfuscation 
by being usable anyway" - so why not put manpower on that issue?
If the source would be readable, more developer would likely jump into the 
game.


cheers Reinhard





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Re: [Emc-developers] 2.8 Situation

[Gene Heskett]

On Thursday 11 June 2020 14:51:38 Reinhard wrote:

> On Donnerstag, 11. Juni 2020, 18:57:56 CEST Curtis Dutton wrote:
> > I'm a RIP guy on all
> > of my machines and run master.
>
> So what is wrong with that?
> I guess, that's almost true for most users of linuxcnc
>
> On Donnerstag, 11. Juni 2020, 18:57:56 CEST Curtis Dutton wrote:
> > no matter
> > when the next release occurs, it is going to be painful for most
> > users to upgrade.

I'll argue on that point. I find it totally unreal that most shop owners 
won't spend the sheckles to buy a router and maybe a switch to put the 
network into every machine in the building.  Security is in how you do 
it, and I've not been touched in 20 some years.

Yet I can update any machine on my locale network everytime the buildbot 
makes a new version available  to apt or synaptic.

> That taken for true, I believe, that there are many users, that won't
> upgrade.

That is their problem as they are missing out on the new capabilities 
being built into LinuxCNC on an almost daily basis.

> On Donnerstag, 11. Juni 2020, 18:57:56 CEST Curtis Dutton wrote:
> > Users need to be accustomed to frequent releases and frequent
> > upgrades if not just to get them used to doing it.
>
> Really? And if they really NEED that frequent updates, are they
> willing to pay for it?

> I'm sure, Andy and others already spent lots of hours in extra release
> issues and I'm not sure, that this effort is appreciated by "default"
> users.

Here is one old default user that appreciates that, a lot. 

And I wouldn't have a milliseconds problem with an annual small fee to 
pay for buildbot electricity and server bandwidth.  But I also expect to 
have this msg ignored like all the rest of my offers of arm hardware for 
the buildbot have been.

> Most (if not all) developers are volonteers, who spend their leisure
> time on project. Time is very very precious - for everybody.
> So why waste that precious time on shady subjects like release?

I would not call it shady.  Milepost marker perhaps.

> May be academic people think different - don't know. Sometimes I get
> the impression, that they don't know/care about the value of time.
>
> To me, linuxcnc looks like an academic research on "how to extend
> obfuscation by being usable anyway" - so why not put manpower on that
> issue? If the source would be readable, more developer would likely
> jump into the game.
>
With projects like this, no one "assigns" manpower, and effort is put out 
far more on "scratch that itch" stuff.  And some of it is amazing stuff.  
And they deserve more flowers than they are getting.

Count your blessings and say Thank You.
>
> cheers Reinhard

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
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 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
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Re: [Emc-developers] 2.8 Situation

[Reinhard]

Hi Gene

On Donnerstag, 11. Juni 2020, 21:53:55 CEST Gene Heskett wrote:
> I find it totally unreal that most shop owners won't spend the sheckles to
> buy a router and maybe a switch to put the network into every machine in the
> building.  Security is in how you do it, and I've not been touched in 20
> some years.

Yes, I know it the same way. Many shop owners have physically separated 
networks. That's not the question and no problem.

> Yet I can update any machine on my locale network everytime the buildbot
> makes a new version available  to apt or synaptic.

I know you run a build farm. And I know the cost of a release from developer 
point of view.

So let's ask for the other side of view - what's the difference between a 
snapshot from master to a ordinally rolled out release - from the user side of 
view?
Afaik all they want, are packages to install from without compiling.
So if the buildbot generates that packages, you could simply declare a 
snapshot to be a release. That would be a manageable job.

But as I understand Andy, he does a lot of extra testing to deliver a pretty 
bugfree release. That's what I'm talking about and I think, that time could be 
better invested.

> And I wouldn't have a milliseconds problem with an annual small fee to
> pay for buildbot electricity and server bandwidth.

I know - but users that think the same way as you don't cry for new versions 
or for many releases in short cycles.
You help a lot to push the project ahead - so it wasn't you, that I was 
talking about.


cheers Reinhard




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Re: [Emc-developers] 2.8 Situation

[Gene Heskett]

On Thursday 11 June 2020 23:28:26 Reinhard wrote:

> Hi Gene
>
> On Donnerstag, 11. Juni 2020, 21:53:55 CEST Gene Heskett wrote:
> > I find it totally unreal that most shop owners won't spend the
> > sheckles to buy a router and maybe a switch to put the network into
> > every machine in the building.  Security is in how you do it, and
> > I've not been touched in 20 some years.
>
> Yes, I know it the same way. Many shop owners have physically
> separated networks. That's not the question and no problem.
>
> > Yet I can update any machine on my locale network everytime the
> > buildbot makes a new version available  to apt or synaptic.
>
> I know you run a build farm. And I know the cost of a release from
> developer point of view.
>
> So let's ask for the other side of view - what's the difference
> between a snapshot from master to a ordinally rolled out release -
> from the user side of view?
> Afaik all they want, are packages to install from without compiling.
> So if the buildbot generates that packages, you could simply declare a
> snapshot to be a release. That would be a manageable job.
>
> But as I understand Andy, he does a lot of extra testing to deliver a
> pretty bugfree release. That's what I'm talking about and I think,
> that time could be better invested.
>
> > And I wouldn't have a milliseconds problem with an annual small fee
> > to pay for buildbot electricity and server bandwidth.
>
> I know - but users that think the same way as you don't cry for new
> versions or for many releases in short cycles.
> You help a lot to push the project ahead - so it wasn't you, that I
> was talking about.
>
I think of myself more as the canary in the coal mine, lightly exercising 
the buildbots output, occasionally even building my own armhf version 
via a git pull to check on things in the pi world.  And if my canary 
dies, reporting the failure ASAP.

Sometimes, I won't catalog, my reports have been fixed in a few hours.  
So thats my contribution to the stability of the code seen by the 
installers using a "release".  That is their choice. But its gaining new 
or better features they are missing out on too by sticking with a 
release.

But real brokeness, even in a production shop, will be found to not have, 
IMNSHO, a very serious effect on the bottom line by running master, it 
quite simply is not that broken for that long. If I was better at 
scripts, a daily git pull and build of the install debs on that armhf 
would be running.  With any failures generating an automatic email to 
raise and wave that famous hand.

What I need, since I've broken the git pull and build to the make tests 
stage, and a separate deb build is a way to condition the deb build on 
the results of the make tests.

Many thanks to Andy and probably others, LinuxCNC is likely the most 
tested software on the planet every time the buildbot makes a new 
master, with going on 250 "does it actually run right" tests of every 
function it has as part of the make tests at the end of my first script 
on the pi4b. I don't think new functions get added without a suitable 
test being written. On my pi, make tests takes more time to run than the 
actual build.

I don't think the huge majority of "release" users know or appreciate 
that.  The wiki maintainers are failing at their advertising efforts for 
not makeing that little detail a hell of a lot more promenant.

There is not an RTAI for armhf, so all my builds are for a preempt-rt 
kernel. I get latency overruns even with RTAI, on my wheezy builds, 
short enough the machine doesn't seem to notice, but I don't get any 
more running uspace on the pi4b either.  I've no clue about arm64 
builds. But I am running, other than kernel related stuffs, 6 packages 
its not updating of a 100% uptodate buster build from raspbian on that 
pi4b.

> cheers Reinhard
>
>
>
>
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-- 
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 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
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Re: [Emc-developers] 2.8 Situation

[andy pugh]

On Fri, 12 Jun 2020 at 04:28, Reinhard  wrote:

> So let's ask for the other side of view - what's the difference between a
> snapshot from master to a ordinally rolled out release - from the user side of
> view?
> Afaik all they want, are packages to install from without compiling.

A major release has a matching ISO file for a scratch install, is
thought to be largely bug-free and has documentation that matches the
actual behaviour.
At least in principle.

Machinekit abandoned the idea of releases. I have heard that that
makes it hard to find a version that actually works.

--
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912


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Re: [Emc-developers] 2.8 Situation

[Jon Elson]

On 06/12/2020 04:03 AM, andy pugh wrote:
Machinekit abandoned the idea of releases. I have heard 
that that makes it hard to find a version that actually works.
Yes, my test fixture still uses a build set up by Matt 
Shaver quite a few years ago.


But, then, Robert C. Nelson started building Beagle Bone 
kernel releases with machinekit pre-installed.
I use these for a number of non-CNC projects, but also for 
at least one that does use the Machinekit variant of 
LinuxCNC for a one-axis positioner.  As far as I know, this 
is still being built and up to date, there are links on the 
Machinekit web pages for how to download the entire install 
with machinekit.


Jon


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Re: [Emc-developers] 2.8 Situation

[Reinhard]

Hi,

On Freitag, 12. Juni 2020, 11:03:53 CEST andy pugh wrote:
> A major release has a matching ISO file for a scratch install, 

that could be automated

> is thought to be largely bug-free

Hm, I guess, your entitlement on that item is too much.

> and has documentation that matches the
> actual behaviour.

Whow - that never has been true - at least from my point of view.
But may be I focus a different picture.

Never mind - keep on rocking ;)


cheers Reinhard





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Re: [Emc-developers] 2.8 Situation

[Bojan Topalovski]

I loved this conversation... to much sparks..

On Fri, Jun 12, 2020, 18:23 Reinhard  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> On Freitag, 12. Juni 2020, 11:03:53 CEST andy pugh wrote:
> > A major release has a matching ISO file for a scratch install,
>
> that could be automated
>
> > is thought to be largely bug-free
>
> Hm, I guess, your entitlement on that item is too much.
>
> > and has documentation that matches the
> > actual behaviour.
>
> Whow - that never has been true - at least from my point of view.
> But may be I focus a different picture.
>
> Never mind - keep on rocking ;)
>
>
> cheers Reinhard
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [Emc-developers] 2.8 Situation

[Julian Wingert]

Moin! (north german hello)

I would like to add some thoughts.

1. Releases are a must have. Think about someone having a 1 Dollar Maschine 
being brocken by a Bug. I for myself am very cautious about testing new 
versions, as my machine has 2x 2KW servos on y-axis, easy able to tear the 
machine apart...
2. If there are spenders, bring them on. What about a patreon for lcnc? And 
payment is done in 3 tiles, one in advance, one @integration and one @release. 
We make a list of open things, define a price and publish them. I for myself 
would be OK with the one organizing getting paid for his work.
3. Mark Shuttleworth may be interested in sponsorship along with Ubuntu?

I think we have the usual problem, communication issues.
It the spenders and the developers would have a platform.

Best regards
Julian 

On 11 June 2020 18:57:56 CEST, Curtis Dutton  wrote:
>I'm not familiar exactly with the release process as I'm a RIP guy on
>all
>of my machines and run master.
>
>One of the open source projects I work with (racket-lang) uses a
>monthly
>release schedule with minor releases and then a major release once per
>year. They are academics and have funding so doing a monthly release
>sounds
>too hard. However would something along those lines be appropriate?
>Perhaps
>quartly or bi-annual releases?
>
>Is generating a release highly difficult? If so we should work on
>making
>that easier and ideally automatic.
>
>Master functionality vs 2.7 or 2.6 is a very large difference and no
>matter
>when the next release occurs, it is going to be painful for most users
>to
>upgrade. This next release will almost be more of a 3.0 than anything.
>The
>sooner that bandaid gets pulled off the better.
>
>Users need to be accustomed to frequent releases and frequent upgrades
>if
>not just to get them used to doing it.
>
>Now we definitely want RTAI in there, many users need it and linuxcnc
>needs
>as many users as it can get.
>
>Is it possible to get RTAI on a point release after the fact (unless
>the
>bug gets fixed sooner?) Why does the release need to be all or nothing?
>Can
>we do a special RTAI release later as soon as the bug gets fixed just
>because it is a special case?
>
>
>
>On Thu, Jun 11, 2020 at 12:58 AM Phill Carter 
>wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> > On 11 Jun 2020, at 12:54 pm, Rod Webster  wrote:
>> >
>> >> On Thu, 11 Jun 2020 at 12:33, Reinhard
>
>> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> If other users have similar experiences, then a lot of precious
>> developer
>> >> time
>> >> has been wasted on releases, that don't have much importance.
>> >> I believe, that developer time spent on pushing things ahead makes
>more
>> >>  sense,
>> >> than spending it on releases.
>> >
>> > I think that sums it up nicely.
>> > Look to the future I say!
>>
>>
>> But I thought you were pushing for a release Rod. ;-)
>>
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Re: [Emc-developers] 2.8 Situation

[Julian Wingert]

We will easy be able to pay for a full time developer if we all put our 5 
dollars in one pot... 

On 14 June 2020 11:53:13 CEST, Julian Wingert  wrote:
>Moin! (north german hello)
>
>I would like to add some thoughts.
>
>1. Releases are a must have. Think about someone having a 1 Dollar
>Maschine being brocken by a Bug. I for myself am very cautious about
>testing new versions, as my machine has 2x 2KW servos on y-axis, easy
>able to tear the machine apart...
>2. If there are spenders, bring them on. What about a patreon for lcnc?
>And payment is done in 3 tiles, one in advance, one @integration and
>one @release. We make a list of open things, define a price and publish
>them. I for myself would be OK with the one organizing getting paid for
>his work.
>3. Mark Shuttleworth may be interested in sponsorship along with
>Ubuntu?
>
>I think we have the usual problem, communication issues.
>It the spenders and the developers would have a platform.
>
>Best regards
>Julian 
>
>On 11 June 2020 18:57:56 CEST, Curtis Dutton 
>wrote:
>>I'm not familiar exactly with the release process as I'm a RIP guy on
>>all
>>of my machines and run master.
>>
>>One of the open source projects I work with (racket-lang) uses a
>>monthly
>>release schedule with minor releases and then a major release once per
>>year. They are academics and have funding so doing a monthly release
>>sounds
>>too hard. However would something along those lines be appropriate?
>>Perhaps
>>quartly or bi-annual releases?
>>
>>Is generating a release highly difficult? If so we should work on
>>making
>>that easier and ideally automatic.
>>
>>Master functionality vs 2.7 or 2.6 is a very large difference and no
>>matter
>>when the next release occurs, it is going to be painful for most users
>>to
>>upgrade. This next release will almost be more of a 3.0 than anything.
>>The
>>sooner that bandaid gets pulled off the better.
>>
>>Users need to be accustomed to frequent releases and frequent upgrades
>>if
>>not just to get them used to doing it.
>>
>>Now we definitely want RTAI in there, many users need it and linuxcnc
>>needs
>>as many users as it can get.
>>
>>Is it possible to get RTAI on a point release after the fact (unless
>>the
>>bug gets fixed sooner?) Why does the release need to be all or
>nothing?
>>Can
>>we do a special RTAI release later as soon as the bug gets fixed just
>>because it is a special case?
>>
>>
>>
>>On Thu, Jun 11, 2020 at 12:58 AM Phill Carter
>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> > On 11 Jun 2020, at 12:54 pm, Rod Webster  wrote:
>>> >
>>> >> On Thu, 11 Jun 2020 at 12:33, Reinhard
>>
>>> wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> If other users have similar experiences, then a lot of precious
>>> developer
>>> >> time
>>> >> has been wasted on releases, that don't have much importance.
>>> >> I believe, that developer time spent on pushing things ahead
>makes
>>more
>>> >>  sense,
>>> >> than spending it on releases.
>>> >
>>> > I think that sums it up nicely.
>>> > Look to the future I say!
>>>
>>>
>>> But I thought you were pushing for a release Rod. ;-)
>>>
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>>
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>
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>
>Holstenstr. 25
>25421 Pinneberg
>
>Phone: 0170/4516094
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Re: [Emc-developers] 2.8 Situation

[Reinhard]

Hi,

On Sonntag, 14. Juni 2020, 11:53:13 CEST Julian Wingert wrote:
> Releases are a must have.

I think, you don't understand opensource projects. 
The main principle is voluntariness. 

If you have requirements, go ahead and buy a commercial cnc-controller. If you 
put enuf bugs on the table, you won't get a "NO"

With opensource projects you have just two and only this two options:
1. ask for help
2. do it yourself

Everything else is inappropriate!


cheers Reinhard




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Re: [Emc-developers] 2.8 Situation

[Julian Wingert]

Moin!

Oh, believe me I know what you mean.
And, I am just stating my personal opinion.
But you are confusing open source with non-commercial. And linuxcnc is a 
commercial software.
Because it is used to feed loads of people in loads of machine shops over the 
world. And if you disregard this you make linuxcnc not better, but useless.
You can't rely on those spenders who can pay in code lines. You have to use all 
of them, also those who only have dollars and machines... 

Best regards
Julian 

On 14 June 2020 13:06:30 CEST, Reinhard  wrote:
>Hi,
>
>On Sonntag, 14. Juni 2020, 11:53:13 CEST Julian Wingert wrote:
>> Releases are a must have.
>
>I think, you don't understand opensource projects. 
>The main principle is voluntariness. 
>
>If you have requirements, go ahead and buy a commercial cnc-controller.
>If you 
>put enuf bugs on the table, you won't get a "NO"
>
>With opensource projects you have just two and only this two options:
>   1. ask for help
>   2. do it yourself
>
>Everything else is inappropriate!
>
>
>cheers Reinhard
>
>
>
>
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Re: [Emc-developers] 2.8 Situation

[Rod Webster]

Thats not necessarily true.  What sets this project apart  from many other
open source applications is that its 100% voluntariness. Most other open
source projects I've been associated with have a revenue stream from
commercial activities. Open ERP (now Odoo) and Magento are two open source
projects I've spent a lot of money on recently customising them.
Heck even Ghostscript has a commercial arm..

Rod Webster
*1300 896 832*
+61 435 765 611
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On Sun, 14 Jun 2020 at 21:07, Reinhard 
wrote:

> Hi,
>
> On Sonntag, 14. Juni 2020, 11:53:13 CEST Julian Wingert wrote:
> > Releases are a must have.
>
> I think, you don't understand opensource projects.
> The main principle is voluntariness.
>
> If you have requirements, go ahead and buy a commercial cnc-controller. If
> you
> put enuf bugs on the table, you won't get a "NO"
>
> With opensource projects you have just two and only this two options:
> 1. ask for help
> 2. do it yourself
>
> Everything else is inappropriate!
>
>
> cheers Reinhard
>
>
>
>
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Re: [Emc-developers] 2.8 Situation

[Reinhard]

On Sonntag, 14. Juni 2020, 13:21:29 CEST Julian Wingert wrote:
> And linuxcnc is a commercial software.

Oups - didn't know that.

Well, call me simpleminded, but I won't accept any requirement from nobody 
without bugs on the table.
And even then I decide by myself, whether I accept a requirement, or simply 
say: no thank you.

That's my point of view and I hope, every developer has the same freedom. I 
would support that freedom. Anytime.

cheers Reinhard





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Re: [Emc-developers] 2.8 Situation

[andy pugh]

On Sun, 14 Jun 2020 at 12:23, Rod Webster  wrote:

> Thats not necessarily true.  What sets this project apart  from many other
> open source applications is that its 100% voluntariness. Most other open
> source projects I've been associated with have a revenue stream from
> commercial activities.

Octoprint is an interesting case there, Patreon allows Gina to work on
it as a full-time job.

Money has been discussed in the context of LinuxCNC in the past.
Nobody has ever wanted to be the one who decides how it is spent.

There have been occasions when someone has paid a specific coder to do
a specific project on LinuxCNC. Tormach paid for some stuff, for
example.
(But the developer they used wasn't one of the main developers, he
might even have been new to the project, it was a while ago)

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912


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Re: [Emc-developers] 2.8 Situation

[Rod Webster]

>Well, call me simpleminded, but I won't accept any requirement from nobody
> without bugs on the table.

Well I have  a bug on the table trying to extend State tags to include arc
radius. Everything runs but I get an application error window when I open
halshow. Any guidance appreciated

Rod Webster
*1300 896 832*
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On Sun, 14 Jun 2020 at 21:31, Reinhard 
wrote:

> On Sonntag, 14. Juni 2020, 13:21:29 CEST Julian Wingert wrote:
> > And linuxcnc is a commercial software.
>
> Oups - didn't know that.
>
> Well, call me simpleminded, but I won't accept any requirement from nobody
> without bugs on the table.
> And even then I decide by myself, whether I accept a requirement, or
> simply
> say: no thank you.
>
> That's my point of view and I hope, every developer has the same freedom.
> I
> would support that freedom. Anytime.
>
> cheers Reinhard
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [Emc-developers] 2.8 Situation

[Julian Wingert]

I send this to a friend of mine who is actually looking for a new project.

It would boost lcnc in my opinion if we had someone being lead who is not 
working for free. I mean the users are earning money with the software, why 
shouldn't those who build it?

Yours Julian 

On 14 June 2020 13:38:16 CEST, andy pugh  wrote:
>On Sun, 14 Jun 2020 at 12:23, Rod Webster  wrote:
>
>> Thats not necessarily true.  What sets this project apart  from many
>other
>> open source applications is that its 100% voluntariness. Most other
>open
>> source projects I've been associated with have a revenue stream from
>> commercial activities.
>
>Octoprint is an interesting case there, Patreon allows Gina to work on
>it as a full-time job.
>
>Money has been discussed in the context of LinuxCNC in the past.
>Nobody has ever wanted to be the one who decides how it is spent.
>
>There have been occasions when someone has paid a specific coder to do
>a specific project on LinuxCNC. Tormach paid for some stuff, for
>example.
>(But the developer they used wasn't one of the main developers, he
>might even have been new to the project, it was a while ago)
>
>-- 
>atp
>"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
>designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
>lunatics."
>— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912
>
>
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Julian Wingert

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Re: [Emc-developers] 2.8 Situation

[Reinhard]

Hi,

> Octoprint is an interesting case there, Patreon allows Gina to work on
> it as a full-time job.

I loosely follow devtalk.blender.org ...
Blender is an opensource project which I heavily use.
Blender has a bunch of paid fulltime developers, but I never read about 
requirements.

>From the latest meeting:
"There is no showstopper for a corrective release yet, although there are 
issues that will make 2.83.1 worth having. Agreement is to wait another week 
to decide."

That's the collaboration I like. There is a group of developers that come to 
an agreement. Perfekt :)


cheers Reinhard




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Re: [Emc-developers] 2.8 Situation

[Reinhard]

On Sonntag, 14. Juni 2020, 13:44:23 CEST Rod Webster wrote:
> >Well, call me simpleminded, but I won't accept any requirement from nobody
> > without bugs on the table.
> 
> Well I have a bug on the table trying to extend State tags to ...

LOL - love it :D





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Re: [Emc-developers] 2.8 Situation

[N]

> Moin! (north german hello)
> 
> I would like to add some thoughts.
> 
> 1. Releases are a must have. Think about someone having a 1 Dollar 
> Maschine being brocken by a Bug. I for myself am very cautious about testing 
> new versions, as my machine has 2x 2KW servos on y-axis, easy able to tear 
> the machine apart...

If you do not want to take the risk you do not have to. If you have a 1 
Dollar machine maybe it's worth spending some money on commercial control 
system, maybe they are more responsible.

> 2. If there are spenders, bring them on. What about a patreon for lcnc? And 
> payment is done in 3 tiles, one in advance, one @integration and one 
> @release. We make a list of open things, define a price and publish them. I 
> for myself would be OK with the one organizing getting paid for his work.

Might be a good idea but I do currently not know anything I am prepared to pay 
for to get done except maybe a little bit of money.


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Re: [Emc-developers] 2.8 Situation

[Stefan Asmus]

I am not a developer (well I will try on some projects in the near future), But 
I have used PlasmaC on my industrial plasma machine I designed and built. I 
spent close to $40K AUD on the build and I if I wanted to use a commercial 
plasma software, the Hypertherm software controller I was quoted was close to 
$30K for just a controller and the software.

LinuxCNC has opened a whole new world of possibilities for me as far as what 
can be done relatively cheaply.  If you follow the plasma forum section you 
will see posts of what I use my machine for on a daily basis. LinuxCNC has made 
that possible.

In the future I would like to sponsor some development. I plan to design and 
build six axis welding robots. I am sure if will be possible with LinuxCNC, I 
just need to get some parts of the software set up to do what I want. If there 
was a system in place for paid developer work I will surely consider investing 
in it.

From: N<mailto:nicklas.karlsso...@gmail.com>
Sent: Sunday, 14 June 2020 11:12 PM
To: EMC developers<mailto:emc-developers@lists.sourceforge.net>
Subject: Re: [Emc-developers] 2.8 Situation

> Moin! (north german hello)
>
> I would like to add some thoughts.
>
> 1. Releases are a must have. Think about someone having a 1 Dollar 
> Maschine being brocken by a Bug. I for myself am very cautious about testing 
> new versions, as my machine has 2x 2KW servos on y-axis, easy able to tear 
> the machine apart...

If you do not want to take the risk you do not have to. If you have a 1 
Dollar machine maybe it's worth spending some money on commercial control 
system, maybe they are more responsible.

> 2. If there are spenders, bring them on. What about a patreon for lcnc? And 
> payment is done in 3 tiles, one in advance, one @integration and one 
> @release. We make a list of open things, define a price and publish them. I 
> for myself would be OK with the one organizing getting paid for his work.

Might be a good idea but I do currently not know anything I am prepared to pay 
for to get done except maybe a little bit of money.


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Re: [Emc-developers] 2.8 Situation

[Julian Wingert]

And you can bet your bottom dollar there are hundreds of others willing to pay.
Question is how we keep this project from being ripped apart.
Because we sure as hell will have some who are afraid of commercial involvement.

Julian

On 14 June 2020 15:22:07 CEST, Stefan Asmus  wrote:
>I am not a developer (well I will try on some projects in the near
>future), But I have used PlasmaC on my industrial plasma machine I
>designed and built. I spent close to $40K AUD on the build and I if I
>wanted to use a commercial plasma software, the Hypertherm software
>controller I was quoted was close to $30K for just a controller and the
>software.
>
>LinuxCNC has opened a whole new world of possibilities for me as far as
>what can be done relatively cheaply.  If you follow the plasma forum
>section you will see posts of what I use my machine for on a daily
>basis. LinuxCNC has made that possible.
>
>In the future I would like to sponsor some development. I plan to
>design and build six axis welding robots. I am sure if will be possible
>with LinuxCNC, I just need to get some parts of the software set up to
>do what I want. If there was a system in place for paid developer work
>I will surely consider investing in it.
>
>From: N<mailto:nicklas.karlsso...@gmail.com>
>Sent: Sunday, 14 June 2020 11:12 PM
>To: EMC developers<mailto:emc-developers@lists.sourceforge.net>
>Subject: Re: [Emc-developers] 2.8 Situation
>
>> Moin! (north german hello)
>>
>> I would like to add some thoughts.
>>
>> 1. Releases are a must have. Think about someone having a 1
>Dollar Maschine being brocken by a Bug. I for myself am very cautious
>about testing new versions, as my machine has 2x 2KW servos on y-axis,
>easy able to tear the machine apart...
>
>If you do not want to take the risk you do not have to. If you have a
>1 Dollar machine maybe it's worth spending some money on commercial
>control system, maybe they are more responsible.
>
>> 2. If there are spenders, bring them on. What about a patreon for
>lcnc? And payment is done in 3 tiles, one in advance, one @integration
>and one @release. We make a list of open things, define a price and
>publish them. I for myself would be OK with the one organizing getting
>paid for his work.
>
>Might be a good idea but I do currently not know anything I am prepared
>to pay for to get done except maybe a little bit of money.
>
>
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>
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Mit freundlichen Grüßen aus Pinneberg
Julian Wingert

Subtilitas Consulting

Holstenstr. 25
25421 Pinneberg

Phone: 0170/4516094
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Mail: julian.wing...@subtilitas.de

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Re: [Emc-developers] 2.8 Situation

[Stefan Asmus]

I have no issues with my proposed paid development being made open source. But 
I understand that others will have that issue. I would say that if that is what 
the client wants, they have to accept that the work is based upon a open source 
framework that cannot be copyrighted.

From: Julian Wingert<mailto:julian.wing...@web.de>
Sent: Sunday, 14 June 2020 11:29 PM
To: EMC developers<mailto:emc-developers@lists.sourceforge.net>
Subject: Re: [Emc-developers] 2.8 Situation

And you can bet your bottom dollar there are hundreds of others willing to pay.
Question is how we keep this project from being ripped apart.
Because we sure as hell will have some who are afraid of commercial involvement.

Julian

On 14 June 2020 15:22:07 CEST, Stefan Asmus  wrote:
>I am not a developer (well I will try on some projects in the near
>future), But I have used PlasmaC on my industrial plasma machine I
>designed and built. I spent close to $40K AUD on the build and I if I
>wanted to use a commercial plasma software, the Hypertherm software
>controller I was quoted was close to $30K for just a controller and the
>software.
>
>LinuxCNC has opened a whole new world of possibilities for me as far as
>what can be done relatively cheaply.  If you follow the plasma forum
>section you will see posts of what I use my machine for on a daily
>basis. LinuxCNC has made that possible.
>
>In the future I would like to sponsor some development. I plan to
>design and build six axis welding robots. I am sure if will be possible
>with LinuxCNC, I just need to get some parts of the software set up to
>do what I want. If there was a system in place for paid developer work
>I will surely consider investing in it.
>
>From: N<mailto:nicklas.karlsso...@gmail.com>
>Sent: Sunday, 14 June 2020 11:12 PM
>To: EMC developers<mailto:emc-developers@lists.sourceforge.net>
>Subject: Re: [Emc-developers] 2.8 Situation
>
>> Moin! (north german hello)
>>
>> I would like to add some thoughts.
>>
>> 1. Releases are a must have. Think about someone having a 1
>Dollar Maschine being brocken by a Bug. I for myself am very cautious
>about testing new versions, as my machine has 2x 2KW servos on y-axis,
>easy able to tear the machine apart...
>
>If you do not want to take the risk you do not have to. If you have a
>1 Dollar machine maybe it's worth spending some money on commercial
>control system, maybe they are more responsible.
>
>> 2. If there are spenders, bring them on. What about a patreon for
>lcnc? And payment is done in 3 tiles, one in advance, one @integration
>and one @release. We make a list of open things, define a price and
>publish them. I for myself would be OK with the one organizing getting
>paid for his work.
>
>Might be a good idea but I do currently not know anything I am prepared
>to pay for to get done except maybe a little bit of money.
>
>
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>
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Mit freundlichen Grüßen aus Pinneberg
Julian Wingert

Subtilitas Consulting

Holstenstr. 25
25421 Pinneberg

Phone: 0170/4516094
FAX: 03212-1479681
Mail: julian.wing...@subtilitas.de

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Re: [Emc-developers] 2.8 Situation

[Reinhard]

On Sonntag, 14. Juni 2020, 15:34:37 CEST Stefan Asmus wrote:
> they have to accept that the work is based upon a open source framework that
> cannot be copyrighted.

That's the point.

To be precise - the open source framework IS already copyrighted.
Just read the file COPYING from the project root.

That file contains a paragraph referred to warranty. 
With that in mind, there's absolutely NO base for any requirement.


cheers Reinhard




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Re: [Emc-developers] 2.8 Situation

[Stefan Asmus]

So what is the worst case scenario? More forks pop up like MachineKit? Or you 
guys do nothing and let another project overtake what you have already worked 
so hard for. Why not grab it by the balls and see what it can truly do? 
LinuxCNC is already capable of so much. I am sure it can do more and do it much 
better with some money invested in it.

From: Reinhard<mailto:reinha...@schwarzrot-design.de>
Sent: Sunday, 14 June 2020 11:42 PM
To: EMC developers<mailto:emc-developers@lists.sourceforge.net>
Subject: Re: [Emc-developers] 2.8 Situation

On Sonntag, 14. Juni 2020, 15:34:37 CEST Stefan Asmus wrote:
> they have to accept that the work is based upon a open source framework that
> cannot be copyrighted.

That's the point.

To be precise - the open source framework IS already copyrighted.
Just read the file COPYING from the project root.

That file contains a paragraph referred to warranty.
With that in mind, there's absolutely NO base for any requirement.


cheers Reinhard




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Re: [Emc-developers] 2.8 Situation

[Julian Wingert]

Ah yeah, here we go. Again. Open source =! Non commercial

And please don't think that Beckhoff would pay for your wrecked machine even if 
they fucked it up.
There is no warranty that covers you. That's why I prefer open source. I can 
look myself if I have to and pay someone if I'm able to.
The latter is missing here. Let's fix it.

And there is little sense in keeping improvements to lcnc to myself. The usual 
customer makes money with the machines working.

Yours Julian 

On 14 June 2020 15:41:31 CEST, Reinhard  wrote:
>On Sonntag, 14. Juni 2020, 15:34:37 CEST Stefan Asmus wrote:
>> they have to accept that the work is based upon a open source
>framework that
>> cannot be copyrighted.
>
>That's the point.
>
>To be precise - the open source framework IS already copyrighted.
>Just read the file COPYING from the project root.
>
>That file contains a paragraph referred to warranty. 
>With that in mind, there's absolutely NO base for any requirement.
>
>
>cheers Reinhard
>
>
>
>
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Mit freundlichen Grüßen aus Pinneberg
Julian Wingert

Subtilitas Consulting

Holstenstr. 25
25421 Pinneberg

Phone: 0170/4516094
FAX: 03212-1479681
Mail: julian.wing...@subtilitas.de

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Re: [Emc-developers] 2.8 Situation

[Rod Webster]

>I have no issues with my proposed paid development being made open source.
But I understand that others will have that issue.
>I would say that if that is what the client wants, they have to accept
that the work is based upon a open source framework.

But that has its advantages because so many users have contributed to the
Plasmac config, its now world class and has some of the best support around
via the forum 24/7
The collective wisdom of many over a few short  years puts this at the top
of the game.  A single new entrant could not have done it on their own.



Rod Webster
*1300 896 832*
+61 435 765 611
VMN®
www.vmn.com.au



On Sun, 14 Jun 2020 at 23:42, Reinhard 
wrote:

> On Sonntag, 14. Juni 2020, 15:34:37 CEST Stefan Asmus wrote:
> > they have to accept that the work is based upon a open source framework
> that
> > cannot be copyrighted.
>
> That's the point.
>
> To be precise - the open source framework IS already copyrighted.
> Just read the file COPYING from the project root.
>
> That file contains a paragraph referred to warranty.
> With that in mind, there's absolutely NO base for any requirement.
>
>
> cheers Reinhard
>
>
>
>
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>

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Re: [Emc-developers] 2.8 Situation

[Rod Webster]

> I can look myself if I have to and pay someone if I'm able to.
>The latter is missing here. Let's fix it.

I think there is plenty of scope here for low hanging fruit building custom
GUI's and a couple of custom components. There are not many masochists like
me that want to dig into the /src/emc folder.  I had a win tonight in
there as a noob so I can go to bed happy!

Rod Webster
*1300 896 832*
+61 435 765 611
VMN®
www.vmn.com.au



On Sun, 14 Jun 2020 at 23:50, Julian Wingert  wrote:

> Ah yeah, here we go. Again. Open source =! Non commercial
>
> And please don't think that Beckhoff would pay for your wrecked machine
> even if they fucked it up.
> There is no warranty that covers you. That's why I prefer open source. I
> can look myself if I have to and pay someone if I'm able to.
> The latter is missing here. Let's fix it.
>
> And there is little sense in keeping improvements to lcnc to myself. The
> usual customer makes money with the machines working.
>
> Yours Julian
>
> On 14 June 2020 15:41:31 CEST, Reinhard 
> wrote:
> >On Sonntag, 14. Juni 2020, 15:34:37 CEST Stefan Asmus wrote:
> >> they have to accept that the work is based upon a open source
> >framework that
> >> cannot be copyrighted.
> >
> >That's the point.
> >
> >To be precise - the open source framework IS already copyrighted.
> >Just read the file COPYING from the project root.
> >
> >That file contains a paragraph referred to warranty.
> >With that in mind, there's absolutely NO base for any requirement.
> >
> >
> >cheers Reinhard
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >___
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>
> --
> Mit freundlichen Grüßen aus Pinneberg
> Julian Wingert
>
> Subtilitas Consulting
>
> Holstenstr. 25
> 25421 Pinneberg
>
> Phone: 0170/4516094
> FAX: 03212-1479681
> Mail: julian.wing...@subtilitas.de
>
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Re: [Emc-developers] 2.8 Situation

[Reinhard]

Hi Stefan,

On Sonntag, 14. Juni 2020, 15:49:32 CEST Stefan Asmus wrote:
> So what is the worst case scenario? More forks pop up like MachineKit?

Sorry, my post was not against you!
Although I quoted your mail.

I HATE people, that travel on goods for nothing and who have the impertinence 
to put in a claim. That's all.

I'm not a linuxcnc developer, but I'm working on to become one ;)


cheers Reinhard




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Re: [Emc-developers] 2.8 Situation

[Julian Wingert]

Well, I myself don't have the time to work on lcnc. But paying a few hundred 
bucks some time or low 2figure regularly wouldn't be an issue.

Best regards
Julian 

On 14 June 2020 15:57:08 CEST, Reinhard  wrote:
>Hi Stefan,
>
>On Sonntag, 14. Juni 2020, 15:49:32 CEST Stefan Asmus wrote:
>> So what is the worst case scenario? More forks pop up like
>MachineKit?
>
>Sorry, my post was not against you!
>Although I quoted your mail.
>
>I HATE people, that travel on goods for nothing and who have the
>impertinence 
>to put in a claim. That's all.
>
>I'm not a linuxcnc developer, but I'm working on to become one ;)
>
>
>cheers Reinhard
>
>
>
>
>___
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>https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-developers

--
Mit freundlichen Grüßen aus Pinneberg
Julian Wingert

Subtilitas Consulting

Holstenstr. 25
25421 Pinneberg

Phone: 0170/4516094
FAX: 03212-1479681
Mail: julian.wing...@subtilitas.de

USt-IdNr.: DE272503212
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Re: [Emc-developers] 2.8 Situation

[Reinhard]

Hi Rod,

On Sonntag, 14. Juni 2020, 15:55:44 CEST Rod Webster wrote:
> There are not many masochists like
> me that want to dig into the /src/emc folder.

looks like I'm the same masochist =:O
Maybe we should fraternize ;)

cheers Reinhard




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Re: [Emc-developers] 2.8 Situation

[Rod Webster]

>I'm not a linuxcnc developer, but I'm working on to become one ;)
I'm not a Linuxcnc developer and I'm trying  hard NOT to become one. But
you do what you have to do so I will follow in your footsteps  Reinhardt!
And self-flagelation is fun sometimes!

Rod Webster
*1300 896 832*
+61 435 765 611
VMN®
www.vmn.com.au



On Mon, 15 Jun 2020 at 00:01, Julian Wingert  wrote:

> Well, I myself don't have the time to work on lcnc. But paying a few
> hundred bucks some time or low 2figure regularly wouldn't be an issue.
>
> Best regards
> Julian
>
> On 14 June 2020 15:57:08 CEST, Reinhard 
> wrote:
> >Hi Stefan,
> >
> >On Sonntag, 14. Juni 2020, 15:49:32 CEST Stefan Asmus wrote:
> >> So what is the worst case scenario? More forks pop up like
> >MachineKit?
> >
> >Sorry, my post was not against you!
> >Although I quoted your mail.
> >
> >I HATE people, that travel on goods for nothing and who have the
> >impertinence
> >to put in a claim. That's all.
> >
> >I'm not a linuxcnc developer, but I'm working on to become one ;)
> >
> >
> >cheers Reinhard
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >___
> >Emc-developers mailing list
> >Emc-developers@lists.sourceforge.net
> >https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-developers
>
> --
> Mit freundlichen Grüßen aus Pinneberg
> Julian Wingert
>
> Subtilitas Consulting
>
> Holstenstr. 25
> 25421 Pinneberg
>
> Phone: 0170/4516094
> FAX: 03212-1479681
> Mail: julian.wing...@subtilitas.de
>
> USt-IdNr.: DE272503212
> ___
> Emc-developers mailing list
> Emc-developers@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-developers
>

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Re: [Emc-developers] 2.8 Situation

[Gene Heskett]

On Sunday 14 June 2020 09:28:29 Julian Wingert wrote:

> And you can bet your bottom dollar there are hundreds of others
> willing to pay. Question is how we keep this project from being ripped
> apart. Because we sure as hell will have some who are afraid of
> commercial involvement.
>
> Julian

There is always that possibility.  And it cannot be eradicated as long as 
there is an MBA.

One of the elephants in the room (as I see it anyway) is the legal 
liability the US legal system forces on anyone in a seat of power. That 
is generally avoided by not having anyone in a position of being able to 
write a check.

Anyone with questions should study this projects history from its 
origination at NIST.  Its mandated, legally public domain but largely if 
not 100% rewritten under the gpl in the decades since because of the 
gpl's legal protections.

I don't think that will ever change simply because the legal folks that 
pass these laws don't want anything that might make it easier to 
actually have competition.

Convinceing your "by the people" folks to give projects such as this, the 
same legal protections afforded the commercial world, would be a great 
first step.  But the MBA's among them will never allow that for the same 
reason they demand that all your machines run windows, because then if 
it doesn't work, they have someone with deep pockets to sue, God forbid 
an MBA actually being personally responsible for the choices he makes.

My $0.02, please adjust for inflation since 1934.

> On 14 June 2020 15:22:07 CEST, Stefan Asmus  
wrote:
> >I am not a developer (well I will try on some projects in the near
> >future), But I have used PlasmaC on my industrial plasma machine I
> >designed and built. I spent close to $40K AUD on the build and I if I
> >wanted to use a commercial plasma software, the Hypertherm software
> >controller I was quoted was close to $30K for just a controller and
> > the software.
> >
> >LinuxCNC has opened a whole new world of possibilities for me as far
> > as what can be done relatively cheaply.  If you follow the plasma
> > forum section you will see posts of what I use my machine for on a
> > daily basis. LinuxCNC has made that possible.
> >
> >In the future I would like to sponsor some development. I plan to
> >design and build six axis welding robots. I am sure if will be
> > possible with LinuxCNC, I just need to get some parts of the
> > software set up to do what I want. If there was a system in place
> > for paid developer work I will surely consider investing in it.
> >
> >From: N<mailto:nicklas.karlsso...@gmail.com>
> >Sent: Sunday, 14 June 2020 11:12 PM
> >To: EMC developers<mailto:emc-developers@lists.sourceforge.net>
> >Subject: Re: [Emc-developers] 2.8 Situation
> >
> >> Moin! (north german hello)
> >>
> >> I would like to add some thoughts.
> >>
> >> 1. Releases are a must have. Think about someone having a 1
> >
> >Dollar Maschine being brocken by a Bug. I for myself am very cautious
> >about testing new versions, as my machine has 2x 2KW servos on
> > y-axis, easy able to tear the machine apart...
> >
> >If you do not want to take the risk you do not have to. If you have a
> >1 Dollar machine maybe it's worth spending some money on
> > commercial control system, maybe they are more responsible.
> >
> >> 2. If there are spenders, bring them on. What about a patreon for
> >
> >lcnc? And payment is done in 3 tiles, one in advance, one
> > @integration and one @release. We make a list of open things, define
> > a price and publish them. I for myself would be OK with the one
> > organizing getting paid for his work.
> >
> >Might be a good idea but I do currently not know anything I am
> > prepared to pay for to get done except maybe a little bit of money.
> >
> >
> >___
> >Emc-developers mailing list
> >Emc-developers@lists.sourceforge.net
> >https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-developers
> >
> >
> >___
> >Emc-developers mailing list
> >Emc-developers@lists.sourceforge.net
> >https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-developers
>
> --
> Mit freundlichen Grüßen aus Pinneberg
> Julian Wingert
>
> Subtilitas Consulting
>
> Holstenstr. 25
> 25421 Pinneberg
>
> Phone: 0170/4516094
> FAX: 03212-1479681
> Mail: julian.wing...@subtilitas.de
>
> USt-IdNr.: DE272503212
> ___
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> Emc-develop

Re: [Emc-developers] 2.8 Situation

[Dean Forbes (PERS)]

I am not a developer and an not hugley active on the linuxcnc forum and am
not a CNC expert but am an enthusiast and would like to share my view

Linuxcnc is an open source product but it is also a community

As a community it will have its moments, groups of people with different
views goals etc etc

Ideas or issues are floated on the mailing list people go off and create or
fix different parts and then submit them for inclusion in the "product"
So on that basis if people had some features that the community or the
communities gate keeper felt appropriate I can not see an issue with them
funding that and that then submitting that for inclusion - there would be
no guarantee for inclusion or rejection
Open source stuff is dealt with by people in there spare time that is just
one of the attributes if there are enough people (and demand) it tends to
move quicker if not then it does not

As for the infrastructure or organization a safe pair of hand can be hard
to find people sometimes despite being finished with a role are nervous to
step back from the role formally and think I will just keep doing it but
never quite manage to despite good intentions  .In my opinion some
times there needs to be a gap left for people to fill and this can be hard
if the predecessor was particularly good - people will be or could be
apprehensive to step into that space
It has been a while since we had a major release,  someone has stepped
forward to take that role on and my guess is he is still finding his feet
and as a community I feel we need to give the next release a chance to make
its way to the finish line and  give the person in the release role all the
support we can

I feel that Linuxcnc is in very capable hands

As for "commercialisation" I dont believe it is the way to go and having
long term funded roles threatens what Linuxcnc is and introduces many other
dynamic whilst we are not in a perfect world at the moment it would be more
complex and difficult if it were commercialised in my view

I may have missed the point and gone off on a ramble - I hope not

Just my 5 cents








On Sun, 14 Jun 2020 at 15:04, Rod Webster  wrote:

> >I'm not a linuxcnc developer, but I'm working on to become one ;)
> I'm not a Linuxcnc developer and I'm trying  hard NOT to become one. But
> you do what you have to do so I will follow in your footsteps  Reinhardt!
> And self-flagelation is fun sometimes!
>
> Rod Webster
> *1300 896 832*
> +61 435 765 611
> VMN®
> www.vmn.com.au
>
>
>
> On Mon, 15 Jun 2020 at 00:01, Julian Wingert 
> wrote:
>
> > Well, I myself don't have the time to work on lcnc. But paying a few
> > hundred bucks some time or low 2figure regularly wouldn't be an issue.
> >
> > Best regards
> > Julian
> >
> > On 14 June 2020 15:57:08 CEST, Reinhard 
> > wrote:
> > >Hi Stefan,
> > >
> > >On Sonntag, 14. Juni 2020, 15:49:32 CEST Stefan Asmus wrote:
> > >> So what is the worst case scenario? More forks pop up like
> > >MachineKit?
> > >
> > >Sorry, my post was not against you!
> > >Although I quoted your mail.
> > >
> > >I HATE people, that travel on goods for nothing and who have the
> > >impertinence
> > >to put in a claim. That's all.
> > >
> > >I'm not a linuxcnc developer, but I'm working on to become one ;)
> > >
> > >
> > >cheers Reinhard
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >___
> > >Emc-developers mailing list
> > >Emc-developers@lists.sourceforge.net
> > >https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-developers
> >
> > --
> > Mit freundlichen Grüßen aus Pinneberg
> > Julian Wingert
> >
> > Subtilitas Consulting
> >
> > Holstenstr. 25
> > 25421 Pinneberg
> >
> > Phone: 0170/4516094
> > FAX: 03212-1479681
> > Mail: julian.wing...@subtilitas.de
> >
> > USt-IdNr.: DE272503212
> > ___
> > Emc-developers mailing list
> > Emc-developers@lists.sourceforge.net
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-developers
> >
>
> ___
> Emc-developers mailing list
> Emc-developers@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-developers
>

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Re: [Emc-developers] 2.8 Situation

[Stefan Asmus]

>As for "commercialisation" I dont believe it is the way to go and having
>long term funded roles threatens what Linuxcnc is and introduces many other
>dynamic whilst we are not in a perfect world at the moment it would be more
>complex and difficult if it were commercialised in my view

I have not been around here long in the scheme of things but – how did Tormach 
work out its funding of their development project? My understanding is the Path 
Pilot was a derivative of LinuxCNC. Did that have any negative effects? Just 
curious.


From: Dean Forbes (PERS)<mailto:d...@deanforbes.com>
Sent: Monday, 15 June 2020 4:27 AM
To: EMC developers<mailto:emc-developers@lists.sourceforge.net>
Subject: Re: [Emc-developers] 2.8 Situation

I am not a developer and an not hugley active on the linuxcnc forum and am
not a CNC expert but am an enthusiast and would like to share my view

Linuxcnc is an open source product but it is also a community

As a community it will have its moments, groups of people with different
views goals etc etc

Ideas or issues are floated on the mailing list people go off and create or
fix different parts and then submit them for inclusion in the "product"
So on that basis if people had some features that the community or the
communities gate keeper felt appropriate I can not see an issue with them
funding that and that then submitting that for inclusion - there would be
no guarantee for inclusion or rejection
Open source stuff is dealt with by people in there spare time that is just
one of the attributes if there are enough people (and demand) it tends to
move quicker if not then it does not

As for the infrastructure or organization a safe pair of hand can be hard
to find people sometimes despite being finished with a role are nervous to
step back from the role formally and think I will just keep doing it but
never quite manage to despite good intentions  .In my opinion some
times there needs to be a gap left for people to fill and this can be hard
if the predecessor was particularly good - people will be or could be
apprehensive to step into that space
It has been a while since we had a major release,  someone has stepped
forward to take that role on and my guess is he is still finding his feet
and as a community I feel we need to give the next release a chance to make
its way to the finish line and  give the person in the release role all the
support we can

I feel that Linuxcnc is in very capable hands

As for "commercialisation" I dont believe it is the way to go and having
long term funded roles threatens what Linuxcnc is and introduces many other
dynamic whilst we are not in a perfect world at the moment it would be more
complex and difficult if it were commercialised in my view

I may have missed the point and gone off on a ramble - I hope not

Just my 5 cents








On Sun, 14 Jun 2020 at 15:04, Rod Webster  wrote:

> >I'm not a linuxcnc developer, but I'm working on to become one ;)
> I'm not a Linuxcnc developer and I'm trying  hard NOT to become one. But
> you do what you have to do so I will follow in your footsteps  Reinhardt!
> And self-flagelation is fun sometimes!
>
> Rod Webster
> *1300 896 832*
> +61 435 765 611
> VMN®
> www.vmn.com.au<http://www.vmn.com.au>
>
>
>
> On Mon, 15 Jun 2020 at 00:01, Julian Wingert 
> wrote:
>
> > Well, I myself don't have the time to work on lcnc. But paying a few
> > hundred bucks some time or low 2figure regularly wouldn't be an issue.
> >
> > Best regards
> > Julian
> >
> > On 14 June 2020 15:57:08 CEST, Reinhard 
> > wrote:
> > >Hi Stefan,
> > >
> > >On Sonntag, 14. Juni 2020, 15:49:32 CEST Stefan Asmus wrote:
> > >> So what is the worst case scenario? More forks pop up like
> > >MachineKit?
> > >
> > >Sorry, my post was not against you!
> > >Although I quoted your mail.
> > >
> > >I HATE people, that travel on goods for nothing and who have the
> > >impertinence
> > >to put in a claim. That's all.
> > >
> > >I'm not a linuxcnc developer, but I'm working on to become one ;)
> > >
> > >
> > >cheers Reinhard
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >___
> > >Emc-developers mailing list
> > >Emc-developers@lists.sourceforge.net
> > >https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-developers
> >
> > --
> > Mit freundlichen Grüßen aus Pinneberg
> > Julian Wingert
> >
> > Subtilitas Consulting
> >
> > Holstenstr. 25
> > 25421 Pinneberg
> >
> > Phone: 0170/4516094
> > FAX: 03212-1479681
> > Mail: julian.w

Re: [Emc-developers] 2.8 Situation

[Gene Heskett]

On Sunday 14 June 2020 13:25:46 Dean Forbes (PERS) wrote:

> I am not a developer and an not hugley active on the linuxcnc forum
> and am not a CNC expert but am an enthusiast and would like to share
> my view
>
> Linuxcnc is an open source product but it is also a community
>
> As a community it will have its moments, groups of people with
> different views goals etc etc
+1
> Ideas or issues are floated on the mailing list people go off and
> create or fix different parts and then submit them for inclusion in
> the "product" So on that basis if people had some features that the
> community or the communities gate keeper felt appropriate I can not
> see an issue with them funding that and that then submitting that for
> inclusion - there would be no guarantee for inclusion or rejection
> Open source stuff is dealt with by people in there spare time that is
> just one of the attributes if there are enough people (and demand) it
> tends to move quicker if not then it does not
>
A good observation.

> As for the infrastructure or organization a safe pair of hand can be
> hard to find people sometimes despite being finished with a role are
> nervous to step back from the role formally and think I will just keep
> doing it but never quite manage to despite good intentions  .In my
> opinion some times there needs to be a gap left for people to fill and
> this can be hard if the predecessor was particularly good - people
> will be or could be apprehensive to step into that space
> It has been a while since we had a major release,  someone has stepped
> forward to take that role on and my guess is he is still finding his
> feet and as a community I feel we need to give the next release a
> chance to make its way to the finish line and  give the person in the
> release role all the support we can
>
> I feel that Linuxcnc is in very capable hands

So do I.

> As for "commercialisation" I dont believe it is the way to go and
> having long term funded roles threatens what Linuxcnc is and
> introduces many other dynamic whilst we are not in a perfect world at
> the moment it would be more complex and difficult if it were
> commercialised in my view
>
> I may have missed the point and gone off on a ramble - I hope not

Nope.

> Just my 5 cents
>
> On Sun, 14 Jun 2020 at 15:04, Rod Webster  wrote:
> > >I'm not a linuxcnc developer, but I'm working on to become one ;)
> >
> > I'm not a Linuxcnc developer and I'm trying  hard NOT to become one.
> > But you do what you have to do so I will follow in your footsteps 
> > Reinhardt! And self-flagelation is fun sometimes!

That grin is very contagious when based on a what if, you get it done in 
a manner not specified, or even considered as usefull by whomever wrote 
that particular G code function.
> >
> > On Mon, 15 Jun 2020 at 00:01, Julian Wingert 
> >
> > wrote:
> > > Well, I myself don't have the time to work on lcnc. But paying a
> > > few hundred bucks some time or low 2figure regularly wouldn't be
> > > an issue.
> > >
> > > Best regards
> > > Julian
> > >
> > > On 14 June 2020 15:57:08 CEST, Reinhard
> > > 
> > >
> > > wrote:
> > > >Hi Stefan,
> > > >
> > > >On Sonntag, 14. Juni 2020, 15:49:32 CEST Stefan Asmus wrote:
> > > >> So what is the worst case scenario? More forks pop up like
> > > >
> > > >MachineKit?
> > > >
> > > >Sorry, my post was not against you!
> > > >Although I quoted your mail.
> > > >
> > > >I HATE people, that travel on goods for nothing and who have the
> > > >impertinence
> > > >to put in a claim. That's all.
> > > >
> > > >I'm not a linuxcnc developer, but I'm working on to become one ;)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >cheers Reinhard
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >___
> > > >Emc-developers mailing list
> > > >Emc-developers@lists.sourceforge.net
> > > >https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-developers
> > >
> > > --
> > > Mit freundlichen Grüßen aus Pinneberg
> > > Julian Wingert
> > >
> > > Subtilitas Consulting
> > >
> > > Holstenstr. 25
> > > 25421 Pinneberg
> > >
> > > Phone: 0170/4516094
> > > FAX: 03212-1479681
> > > Mail: julian.wing...@subtilitas.de
> > >
> > > USt-IdNr.: DE272503212
> > > ___
> > > Emc-developers mailing list
> > > Emc-developers@lists.sourceforge.net
> > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-developers
> >
> > ___
> > Emc-developers mailing list
> > Emc-developers@lists.sourceforge.net
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-developers
>
> ___
> Emc-developers mailing list
> Emc-developers@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-developers


Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable

Re: [Emc-developers] 2.8 Situation

[Phill Carter]

If an individual or a business wants to contract a developer to do work for 
them then I don't see a problem with that. They can then choose whether or not 
they would like to contribute that back to the LinuxCNC project although it 
would be preferable if they did so.

I don't think that LinxCNC as a community should be paying developers nor 
should it have a commercial arm/entity or whatever you want to call it.



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Re: [Emc-developers] 2.8 Situation

[Rod Webster]

My original suggestion was that there should be a mechanism that allowed
people who wanted to engage a developer to connect with interested
developers. I still think thats not  a bad idea and does not go against
the spirit of the project. When you have a project where you need help you
have no idea who to turn to.

The good news (for me) is that I've made significant progress with the
enhancements to State Tags I wanted and know how to get it to work. Maybe
I'll learn enough about git to put a PR forward. I still have a lot to
learn but it seemed to me there was a lot of redundant code with a massive
setup structure in the interpreter that seemed to duplicate a lot of the
shared memory variables. Once I finally worked out that the interpreter
kept its own copy of state tags, I made some progress pretty quickly but it
does not seem an ideal algorithm. I think adding a series of motion.tag.nnn
pins that publish all of the available tags would be a useful enhancement
and make the State tags actually useful!

But I'm still looking for a developer to do the hard stuff!

Rod Webster
*1300 896 832*
+61 435 765 611
VMN®
www.vmn.com.au



On Mon, 15 Jun 2020 at 11:10, Phill Carter  wrote:

> If an individual or a business wants to contract a developer to do work
> for them then I don't see a problem with that. They can then choose whether
> or not they would like to contribute that back to the LinuxCNC project
> although it would be preferable if they did so.
>
> I don't think that LinxCNC as a community should be paying developers nor
> should it have a commercial arm/entity or whatever you want to call it.
>
>
>
> ___
> Emc-developers mailing list
> Emc-developers@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-developers
>

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Re: [Emc-developers] 2.8 Situation

[Stefan Asmus]

Maybe a section in the forum where people post the work they want to have done 
and prospective developers get in contact with them?

From: Rod Webster 
Sent: Monday, 15 June 2020 12:14 PM
To: EMC developers 
Subject: Re: [Emc-developers] 2.8 Situation

My original suggestion was that there should be a mechanism that allowed
people who wanted to engage a developer to connect with interested
developers. I still think thats not  a bad idea and does not go against
the spirit of the project. When you have a project where you need help you
have no idea who to turn to.

The good news (for me) is that I've made significant progress with the
enhancements to State Tags I wanted and know how to get it to work. Maybe
I'll learn enough about git to put a PR forward. I still have a lot to
learn but it seemed to me there was a lot of redundant code with a massive
setup structure in the interpreter that seemed to duplicate a lot of the
shared memory variables. Once I finally worked out that the interpreter
kept its own copy of state tags, I made some progress pretty quickly but it
does not seem an ideal algorithm. I think adding a series of motion.tag.nnn
pins that publish all of the available tags would be a useful enhancement
and make the State tags actually useful!

But I'm still looking for a developer to do the hard stuff!

Rod Webster
*1300 896 832*
+61 435 765 611
VMN®
www.vmn.com.au<http://www.vmn.com.au>



On Mon, 15 Jun 2020 at 11:10, Phill Carter  wrote:

> If an individual or a business wants to contract a developer to do work
> for them then I don't see a problem with that. They can then choose whether
> or not they would like to contribute that back to the LinuxCNC project
> although it would be preferable if they did so.
>
> I don't think that LinxCNC as a community should be paying developers nor
> should it have a commercial arm/entity or whatever you want to call it.
>
>
>
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Re: [Emc-developers] 2.8 Situation

[Rod Webster]

I don't think many developers actually use the forum. Which is quite a
shame reall. But then its not possible to issue emails or private messages
so it won't work..
Maybe its actually this email news group. I have to say the EMC chat line
is not really a good fit for An Aussie due to the difference in time zones
(10-15 hours)

Rod Webster
*1300 896 832*
+61 435 765 611
VMN®
www.vmn.com.au



On Mon, 15 Jun 2020 at 12:39, Stefan Asmus 
wrote:

> Maybe a section in the forum where people post the work they want to have
> done and prospective developers get in contact with them?
> 
> From: Rod Webster 
> Sent: Monday, 15 June 2020 12:14 PM
> To: EMC developers 
> Subject: Re: [Emc-developers] 2.8 Situation
>
> My original suggestion was that there should be a mechanism that allowed
> people who wanted to engage a developer to connect with interested
> developers. I still think thats not  a bad idea and does not go against
> the spirit of the project. When you have a project where you need help you
> have no idea who to turn to.
>
> The good news (for me) is that I've made significant progress with the
> enhancements to State Tags I wanted and know how to get it to work. Maybe
> I'll learn enough about git to put a PR forward. I still have a lot to
> learn but it seemed to me there was a lot of redundant code with a massive
> setup structure in the interpreter that seemed to duplicate a lot of the
> shared memory variables. Once I finally worked out that the interpreter
> kept its own copy of state tags, I made some progress pretty quickly but it
> does not seem an ideal algorithm. I think adding a series of motion.tag.nnn
> pins that publish all of the available tags would be a useful enhancement
> and make the State tags actually useful!
>
> But I'm still looking for a developer to do the hard stuff!
>
> Rod Webster
> *1300 896 832*
> +61 435 765 611
> VMN®
> www.vmn.com.au<http://www.vmn.com.au>
>
>
>
> On Mon, 15 Jun 2020 at 11:10, Phill Carter 
> wrote:
>
> > If an individual or a business wants to contract a developer to do work
> > for them then I don't see a problem with that. They can then choose
> whether
> > or not they would like to contribute that back to the LinuxCNC project
> > although it would be preferable if they did so.
> >
> > I don't think that LinxCNC as a community should be paying developers nor
> > should it have a commercial arm/entity or whatever you want to call it.
> >
> >
> >
> > ___
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> > Emc-developers@lists.sourceforge.net
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-developers
> >
>
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Re: [Emc-developers] 2.8 Situation

[Alec Ari via Emc-developers]

Hi everyone,

Andy had trouble building Paolo's RTAI as-is so I'm taking over and re-creating 
everything Paolo has on his end.

Alec


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Re: [Emc-developers] 2.8 Situation

[John Morris]

On 6/12/20 5:03 PM, andy pugh wrote:

On Fri, 12 Jun 2020 at 04:28, Reinhard  wrote:


So let's ask for the other side of view - what's the difference between a
snapshot from master to a ordinally rolled out release - from the user side of
view?
Afaik all they want, are packages to install from without compiling.


A major release has a matching ISO file for a scratch install, is
thought to be largely bug-free and has documentation that matches the
actual behaviour.
At least in principle.

Machinekit abandoned the idea of releases. I have heard that that
makes it hard to find a version that actually works.


Correct, the Machinekit project doesn't make releases, per C4 [1].  The 
idea is that anyone who wants something like a "stable release" is free 
to fork the project and do so themselves.  In practice, this has been 
done to support commercial products, not directly by the community.  The 
only *public* stable releases I'm aware of are Robert C. Nelson's 
Beaglebone images and perhaps one by The Cool Tool; otherwise, we 
maintain private stable releases in projects I'm involved with, and I've 
heard of others doing the same.


However, in the past, I haven't heard of the master branch remaining 
broken for very long at all, I imagine similar to the LCNC project's 
master branch.  That's not exactly true at the moment, however, when the 
code is being restructured as part of a scramble to replace the CI and 
package distribution infrastructure with systems that can be trivially 
reproduced, after the old system running on private hardware suddenly 
went down.  Lesson learned.


Andy's comment points out an important difference between the two 
projects' approaches:  Machinekit offloads the burden of making releases 
(as well as simplifies code reviews, again per C4) in order to speed up 
the pace of accepting contributions (both new features and bug fixes), 
whereas LinuxCNC prioritizes providing a rock-solid, turn-key binary 
distribution with long-term support for use by its large user community. 
Delaying the RTAI ISO in order to get 2.8 out sooner hardly seems like a 
significant step towards Machinekit's "no-releases" model, even while it 
is a move to temporarily streamline one release requirement.


[1]:  https://rfc.zeromq.org/spec/42/

John


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Re: [Emc-developers] 2.8 Situation

[theman whosoldtheworld]

I know many user need rtai 32bit performances  but more interesting
machinery today was build on 64bit SO  rt-preempt work ok with hight
speed delta with servo motors  servo motors actually is not so
expensive than sme years ago ... so rt-preempt is not a bad choice for all
user .. there is also to add that since it is no longer possible to use
ubuntu 10.04 rtai Lcnc can no longer achieve the performance of the time
 so the problem does not arise for me. rt-preempt is enough  if you
have cheap and high performance stepper motors just add a mesa card that
helps to solve the gap.

*** obviously I do not claim to be an exhaustive or complete argument 
I think it is interesting only as a statistical document 

Il giorno gio 18 giu 2020 alle ore 07:45 John Morris  ha
scritto:

>
> On 6/12/20 5:03 PM, andy pugh wrote:
> > On Fri, 12 Jun 2020 at 04:28, Reinhard 
> wrote:
> >
> >> So let's ask for the other side of view - what's the difference between
> a
> >> snapshot from master to a ordinally rolled out release - from the user
> side of
> >> view?
> >> Afaik all they want, are packages to install from without compiling.
> >
> > A major release has a matching ISO file for a scratch install, is
> > thought to be largely bug-free and has documentation that matches the
> > actual behaviour.
> > At least in principle.
> >
> > Machinekit abandoned the idea of releases. I have heard that that
> > makes it hard to find a version that actually works.
>
> Correct, the Machinekit project doesn't make releases, per C4 [1].  The
> idea is that anyone who wants something like a "stable release" is free
> to fork the project and do so themselves.  In practice, this has been
> done to support commercial products, not directly by the community.  The
> only *public* stable releases I'm aware of are Robert C. Nelson's
> Beaglebone images and perhaps one by The Cool Tool; otherwise, we
> maintain private stable releases in projects I'm involved with, and I've
> heard of others doing the same.
>
> However, in the past, I haven't heard of the master branch remaining
> broken for very long at all, I imagine similar to the LCNC project's
> master branch.  That's not exactly true at the moment, however, when the
> code is being restructured as part of a scramble to replace the CI and
> package distribution infrastructure with systems that can be trivially
> reproduced, after the old system running on private hardware suddenly
> went down.  Lesson learned.
>
> Andy's comment points out an important difference between the two
> projects' approaches:  Machinekit offloads the burden of making releases
> (as well as simplifies code reviews, again per C4) in order to speed up
> the pace of accepting contributions (both new features and bug fixes),
> whereas LinuxCNC prioritizes providing a rock-solid, turn-key binary
> distribution with long-term support for use by its large user community.
> Delaying the RTAI ISO in order to get 2.8 out sooner hardly seems like a
> significant step towards Machinekit's "no-releases" model, even while it
> is a move to temporarily streamline one release requirement.
>
> [1]:  https://rfc.zeromq.org/spec/42/
>
>  John
>
>
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