Re: [Emc-users] The Warm Glow of Mach 3
On 10/30/2014 06:09 PM, dave wrote: ... snip Well, Russian built rocket engines incinerated more than a few Russian cosmonauts. Apparently, when they work they work well...and when they fail . opps! At least we were not launching people. ;-) Going back to traditional rockets with a crew capsule on top restored a tried and true escape system. I think if a crew had been on the Wallops rocket, the escape system would have kicked in and the crew would only have suffered the indignity of being ungracefully plucked from the ocean. I certainly would rather be on top of the rocket than close by on the ground. -- Kirk Wallace http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/ http://www.wallacecompany.com/E45/ -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] The Warm Glow of Mach 3
On 10/31/2014 10:39 AM, Kirk Wallace wrote: On 10/30/2014 06:09 PM, dave wrote: ... snip Well, Russian built rocket engines incinerated more than a few Russian cosmonauts. Apparently, when they work they work well...and when they fail . opps! At least we were not launching people. ;-) Going back to traditional rockets with a crew capsule on top restored a tried and true escape system. I think if a crew had been on the Wallops rocket, the escape system would have kicked in and the crew would only have suffered the indignity of being ungracefully plucked from the ocean. I certainly would rather be on top of the rocket than close by on the ground. In this case that would not have worked so well. CNN reported that the operator of the rocket initiated the self destruct sequence to kill the rocket. http://www.cnn.com/2014/10/30/us/antares-rocket-explosion/index.html?hpt=hp_t2 National Geographics take on the situation: http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2014/10/141030-first-person-rocket-explosion-antares/# Soon after it launched they realized that the rocket would not make it to orbit, so they killed the rocket to prevent it from possibly landing on a populated area! So if they did have astronaunts on this rocket they would have had to make a choice. Kill the astronaunts by detonating the rocket, or possibly kill civilians if the rocket crashes onto the mainland. That would be a tough choice that would have to be made very quickly. Either way, apparently that rocket was doomed from the start. Dave --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] The Warm Glow of Mach 3
On 10/31/14 11:45 AM, Dave Cole wrote: So if they did have astronaunts on this rocket they would have had to make a choice. Kill the astronaunts by detonating the rocket, or possibly kill civilians if the rocket crashes onto the mainland. That's not right. Manned rockets have launch escape systems designed to fly the astronauts to safety in case the rocket malfunctions: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Launch_escape_system -- Sebastian Kuzminsky -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] The Warm Glow of Mach 3
On 10/31/2014 11:57 AM, Sebastian Kuzminsky wrote: On 10/31/14 11:45 AM, Dave Cole wrote: So if they did have astronaunts on this rocket they would have had to make a choice. Kill the astronaunts by detonating the rocket, or possibly kill civilians if the rocket crashes onto the mainland. That's not right. Manned rockets have launch escape systems designed to fly the astronauts to safety in case the rocket malfunctions: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Launch_escape_system Only one emergency use of an LES has occurred. This occurred during the attempt to launch Soyuz T-10-1 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soyuz_T-10-1 on September 26, 1983. The rocket caught fire, just before launch, and the LES carried the crew capsule clear, seconds before the rocket exploded. The crew were subjected to an acceleration of 14 to 17 /g/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G-force (140 to 170 m/s²) for five seconds. Reportedly, the capsule reached an altitude of 2,000 meters (6,500 ft) and landed 4 kilometers (2.5 mi) from the launch pad. The Soyuz LES system also has grid fins http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grid_fin mounted on the payload fairing http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Payload_fairing that deploy to stabilize the craft. I did not know that could be launched from a standing rocket on the launch pad or one barely off the ground. I stand corrected. Thanks. From the same link Orbital Sciences..the same company that had the rocket blow up Orbital Sciences Corporation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orbital_Sciences_Corporation intends to sell the LAS it was building for the Orion spacecraft http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orion_spacecraft to future commercial crew vehicle providers in the wake of cancellation of the Constellation project.^[6] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Launch_escape_system#cite_note-6 Perhaps they should fit the LAS system to the cargo bay of future Antares rockets? ;-) Another article - the comments are interesting. http://www.space.com/27598-antares-rocket-explosion-soviet-engines.html Dave --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] The Warm Glow of Mach 3
On 31 October 2014 20:04, Dave Cole linuxcncro...@gmail.com wrote: Perhaps they should fit the LAS system to the cargo bay of future Antares rockets? ;-) That isn't a crazy idea. The reduced insurance premiums alone might make it worthwhile. No point for astronaut chow like the last one had, but for one-off scientific payloads and satellites it would make sense. -- atp If you can't fix it, you don't own it. http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] The Warm Glow of Mach 3
On 10/29/2014 9:47 AM, Kirk Wallace wrote: This subject line caught my eye, but it's a different Mach 3: http://www.nasa.gov/aero/the-warm-glow-of-mach3/#.VFEKydewfiE Or how about the intro music from the 1987 DOS videogame, Mach 3? http://www.oldskool.org/sound/pc/examples/Mach3.au --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] The Warm Glow of Mach 3
On 10/29/2014 3:34 PM, Dave Cole wrote: On 10/29/2014 10:58 AM, p...@wpnet.us wrote: All insured I'm sure, just an astronomical premium increase in the works... I wouldn't be so sure about that. I heard that companies stock took a hit today. I'd be bending over a trash can for a while, losing the last several meals, if I was the CEO of that company. SpaceX has had some big issues recently also. Their reusable launcher first stages have so far failed to land properly in real launches. Success in launching a test vehicle, going up to a set altitude, moving around a bit then landing in another location or back at the launch site hasn't carried over to the money making part of the business. Once they do get them landing without crashing, then they'll be making more profit per launch, or being able to reduce launch costs. --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] The Warm Glow of Mach 3
According to the documentation - only partially insured. This will have a major impact on the private couriers for NASA. (I am routing for Space-X in the renewed space race.) -Original Message- From: p...@wpnet.us [mailto:p...@wpnet.us] Sent: 29 October 2014 05:58 PM To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Emc-users] The Warm Glow of Mach 3 All insured I'm sure, just an astronomical premium increase in the works... --Original Mail-- From: Pete Matos petefro...@gmail.com To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net Sent: Wed, 29 Oct 2014 11:52:16 -0400 Subject: Re: [Emc-users] The Warm Glow of Mach 3 Jeez man that rocket explosion was EPIC!! A shame for all involved I am quit sure there are lots of empty wallets after that disaster. Space exploration and commercialization is not gonna be cheap. Peace Pete On Wed, Oct 29, 2014 at 11:47 AM, Kirk Wallace kwall...@wallacecompany.com wrote: This subject line caught my eye, but it's a different Mach 3: http://www.nasa.gov/aero/the-warm-glow-of-mach3/#.VFEKydewfiE BTW, if you want to see other NASA e-mail announcements and picture of the week: https://public.govdelivery.com/accounts/USNASA/subscriber/new?preferen ces=true#tab1 -- Kirk Wallace http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/ http://www.wallacecompany.com/E45/ -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- Pete Matos A and N Precision and Fabrication Maryville, Tennessee 865-236-8996 -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users * The information contained in this e-mail is confidential and may be subject to legal privilege. If you are not the intended recipient, you must not use, copy, distribute or disclose the e-mail or any part of its contents or take any action in reliance on it. If you have received this e-mail in error, please e-mail the sender by replying to this message. All reasonable precautions have been taken to ensure no viruses are present in this e-mail and the sender cannot accept responsibility for loss or damage arising from the use of this e-mail or attachments. .* * The information contained in this e-mail is confidential and may be subject to legal privilege. If you are not the intended recipient, you must not use, copy, distribute or disclose the e-mail or any part of its contents or take any action in reliance on it. If you have received this e-mail in error, please e-mail the sender by replying to this message. All reasonable precautions have been taken to ensure no viruses are present in this e-mail and the sender cannot accept responsibility for loss or damage arising from the use of this e-mail or attachments. .* -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] The Warm Glow of Mach 3
On 10/29/2014 6:07 PM, Home wrote: As I understand it, those are (basically) the same engines that takes the Soyuz rockets up still.. Truth be told (I'm no expert but have seen some articles to this effect) the Russian rocket engines where much superior to their American counterparts such that since Russia put some of there political views up on the shelf, these motors have been imported into the U.S. in fairly good numbers. Just 'cause it's old doesn't mean it won't work. Might not be as efficient as new technology but if you factor in the cost of acquiring(creating) new technology, sometimes the old stuff is still more efficient. The engines are leftovers from the failed N1 moon rocket. It had 30 of those in the first stage. All four launch attempts failed, with only one almost making it through the first stage burn before something went kablooie. With 30 engines and all the plumbing and controls etc to go with them, there were just too many potential points of failure. There were 24 engines in an outer ring, using differential throttling for pitch and yaw, while the other 6 were gimbal mounted in the center for roll control. Communists being Communists, they tried to sweep the whole thing under the rug, Failed manned moon program? What manned moon program?. The scientists and engineers were ordered to destroy everything but they hid the engines in a warehouse. With each N1 using 30 engines in the first stage, there were a lot of them left over. Forward to the early 90's, the USSR is crumbled and former rocket Comrades decide those engines should be used. What makes them sought after is they are more efficient for their size because they don't waste the turbopump exhaust. They use a staged combustion or closed cycle system. The people who developed these engines just kept throwing ideas at the wall until something stuck. ;) In Europe and the USA, the rocket scientists gave up on the idea after some failures (several of them explosive) and declared it impossible to route the turbopump exhaust back into the combustion chamber so as to not waste the energy and fuel. The closest a non-Soviet rocket engine came to such a design was the Aerojet M1. With a 32 inch combustion chamber throat and a nozzle skirt max diameter of 18 feet, the engines were huge. The turbopumps were rated at 75,000 and 27,000 horsepower. Their exhaust was used to cool the lower skirt, exiting through a ring of nozzles at the bottom where it contributed an additional 28,000 pounds of thrust to the main 1.5 to 2 million pounds. A complete M1 was never tested, though all the components to assemble at least one were built. NASA chose the Saturn with its LOX-RP1 (RP1 is simply JP1 made to a stricter standard, fancy diesel in which a hypergolic additive may be mixed to make it light upon contact with LOX) fuel over the Nova and its LOX-LH (Liquid Oxygen and Hydrogen) fuel. Liquid Hydrogen gives better performance than RP1 but its lower density requires a much larger tank. See the Shuttle's big tank for an example. The tanks would have been much smaller with RP1. There's a lot of info for rocket enthusiasts in John D. Clark's book Ignition! An informal history of liquid rocket propellants. It covers quite a lot from the earliest liquid fueled rockets up through 1971. http://mikea.ath.cx/Ignition/ One rather amusing anecdote about Chlorine Trifluoride from the book... ”It is, of course, extremely toxic, but that's the least of the problem. It is hypergolic with every known fuel, and so rapidly hypergolic that no ignition delay has ever been measured. It is also hypergolic with such things as cloth, wood, and test engineers, not to mention asbestos, sand, and water-with which it reacts explosively. It can be kept in some of the ordinary structural metals-steel, copper, aluminium, etc.-because of the formation of a thin film of insoluble metal fluoride which protects the bulk of the metal, just as the invisible coat of oxide on aluminium keeps it from burning up in the atmosphere. If, however, this coat is melted or scrubbed off, and has no chance to reform, the operator is confronted with the problem of coping with a metal-fluorine fire. For dealing with this situation, I have always recommended a good pair of running shoes.” Yet even with such a nasty reputation, a chemical company managed to spill a ton of it when a transport cask split. It ate through a foot thick concrete floor and another three feet of sand and gravel below that. The toxic and corrosive fumes damaged everything in the building. Amazingly there was only one casualty, one person suffered a heart attack running away as fast as he could move. Clark mentions many compounds that would make excellent fuels or oxidizers or monopropellants, if only they didn't explode violently at the slightest anything (bump, wiggle, temperature or pressure change, up or down, static discharge or even exposure to
Re: [Emc-users] The Warm Glow of Mach 3
On 10/29/2014 6:15 PM, Stephen Dubovsky wrote: Yes, the old russian rockets are BETTER than anything the US produced, even today. They are closed cycle. There was a very good documentary on them not too long ago I watched but can't find it now. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMbl_ofF3AM --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] The Warm Glow of Mach 3
Am Donnerstag, 30. Oktober 2014 schrieb Leonardo Marsaglia: 2014-10-29 20:20 GMT-03:00 andy pugh bodge...@gmail.com: Skylon looks like it could be made to work for about 4 billion, and the only totally new parts (heat exchanger and fuel-intercooler scheme) have been demonstrated working. It is mainly a better-designed HOTOL ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HOTOL ) which was described by the actual designer as turned out to be an expensive way to send a hydraulic system to low earth orbit I can't see anyone finding the 4 billion in the current climate though. I guess that's the main problem with all of these projects. Most of the people are not interested in space travel and what's beyond this planet, hence nobody wants to invest a lot of money on that. The sad thing is, all the great achievements and progress are acomplished in war times. Greed is a bitch - when your word view is utilitaristic you'll never make it to Mars. Nik -- Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also sharing with the NSA. -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] The Warm Glow of Mach 3
On 30 October 2014 15:31, dr.kl...@gmx.at wrote: Greed is a bitch - when your word view is utilitaristic you'll never make it to Mars. I went to a presentation on Skylon at WorldCon. The most striking image was this: http://www.bisbos.com/images_rel/obs_1_800.jpg An orbital assembly station for a Mars craft. Classic science-fiction, except that there is only one think in that picture that we don't already know how to do, and that's the engines on the space plane. And they have already trialed the hard parts. http://www.reactionengines.co.uk/sabre_howworks.html -- atp If you can't fix it, you don't own it. http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] The Warm Glow of Mach 3
On 10/30/2014 10:31 AM, dr.kl...@gmx.at wrote: Am Donnerstag, 30. Oktober 2014 schrieb Leonardo Marsaglia: 2014-10-29 20:20 GMT-03:00 andy pugh bodge...@gmail.com: Skylon looks like it could be made to work for about 4 billion, and the only totally new parts (heat exchanger and fuel-intercooler scheme) have been demonstrated working. It is mainly a better-designed HOTOL ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HOTOL ) which was described by the actual designer as turned out to be an expensive way to send a hydraulic system to low earth orbit I can't see anyone finding the 4 billion in the current climate though. I guess that's the main problem with all of these projects. Most of the people are not interested in space travel and what's beyond this planet, hence nobody wants to invest a lot of money on that. The sad thing is, all the great achievements and progress are acomplished in war times. Greed is a bitch - when your word view is utilitaristic you'll never make it to Mars. Nik Good point. I was a kid in the 1960's when then President Kennedy declared that we were going to put a man on the moon in that decade. I don't recall any costs being discussed at that time. Nasa was fully funded to do what needed to be done to obtain the mission. Every time they had a test launch on TV, they used to line us up in grade school in the gym to watch the rocket launches on a big black and white TV. Dave --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] The Warm Glow of Mach 3
On Wed, 2014-10-29 at 19:54 -0500, Dave Cole wrote: On 10/29/2014 5:20 PM, Leonardo Marsaglia wrote: 2014-10-29 18:34 GMT-03:00 Dave Cole linuxcncro...@gmail.com: I think that Nasa should resurrect the Constellation program. Nasa received most of the tooling required to make the Ares rocket. They even installed and tested the tooling fixtures. Having to pay Russia to launch our crap into low earth orbit is an embarrassment. And imagine how far we would be now if they hadn't cancelled the Apollo program. I've been reading something about the VASIMR motors to reduce the travelling speed and they would be testing the first prototypes sometime near 2013/2014, but I don't know if that happened or not. Reading wikipedia it says that with this motors the duration of a possible trip to Mars would be of 39 days. Pretty impressive. Anyway, the Plasma motors only would be useful in space, we still need the rockets to escape from the earht's gravity, unless they come with a better system. Funny that you mention Apollo... I just heard that the engines on the Antares rocket that blew up last night was using 40 year old refurbished Russian rocket engines.. (no joke - Apollo vintage) A quick search verified that. They were originally made in the 1970's! http://www.theguardian.com/science/2014/oct/29/russian-rocket-crash-virginia I'm always looking for a bargain, but why would anyone in their right mind use refurbished Russian Rocket engines from the 1970's for a launch in 2014 ?? Wouldn't that be a RED FLAG for most engineers?? What were they thinking?? :-( Dave Well, Russian built rocket engines incinerated more than a few Russian cosmonauts. Apparently, when they work they work well...and when they fail . opps! At least we were not launching people. ;-) D --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] The Warm Glow of Mach 3
On 10/30/2014 11:10 AM, Dave Cole wrote: I was a kid in the 1960's when then President Kennedy declared that we were going to put a man on the moon in that decade. I don't recall any costs being discussed at that time. Nasa was fully funded to do what needed to be done to obtain the mission. Every time they had a test launch on TV, they used to line us up in grade school in the gym to watch the rocket launches on a big black and white TV. Congress began cutting NASA's funding before the Apollo program started. If it hadn't been for people like William Proxmire determined to kill off everything to do with space exploration, the solar system now would be inhabited pretty much like SciFi authors in the 1960's wrote about how it would be in the early 21st Century. Here's Larry Niven's short story The Return of William Proxmire http://bookre.org/reader?file=263895 Somewhere along the line it looks like the original used Unicode for the punctuation and it got ran through something that didn't grok that, so all the quote marks, apostrophes and other punctuation aside from question marks, commas and periods are swapped for other characters. Unicode should never ever be used for any character present in the Extended ASCII set, which contains all the characters for most languages that mostly use the english alphabet. (There's one rarely used character in Norwegian that's not in Extended ASCII.) English, French, German, Italian, dunno what others, Ex-ASCII has it covered. --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
[Emc-users] The Warm Glow of Mach 3
This subject line caught my eye, but it's a different Mach 3: http://www.nasa.gov/aero/the-warm-glow-of-mach3/#.VFEKydewfiE BTW, if you want to see other NASA e-mail announcements and picture of the week: https://public.govdelivery.com/accounts/USNASA/subscriber/new?preferences=true#tab1 -- Kirk Wallace http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/ http://www.wallacecompany.com/E45/ -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] The Warm Glow of Mach 3
Jeez man that rocket explosion was EPIC!! A shame for all involved I am quit sure there are lots of empty wallets after that disaster. Space exploration and commercialization is not gonna be cheap. Peace Pete On Wed, Oct 29, 2014 at 11:47 AM, Kirk Wallace kwall...@wallacecompany.com wrote: This subject line caught my eye, but it's a different Mach 3: http://www.nasa.gov/aero/the-warm-glow-of-mach3/#.VFEKydewfiE BTW, if you want to see other NASA e-mail announcements and picture of the week: https://public.govdelivery.com/accounts/USNASA/subscriber/new?preferences=true#tab1 -- Kirk Wallace http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/ http://www.wallacecompany.com/E45/ -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- Pete Matos A and N Precision and Fabrication Maryville, Tennessee 865-236-8996 -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] The Warm Glow of Mach 3
All insured I'm sure, just an astronomical premium increase in the works... --Original Mail-- From: Pete Matos petefro...@gmail.com To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net Sent: Wed, 29 Oct 2014 11:52:16 -0400 Subject: Re: [Emc-users] The Warm Glow of Mach 3 Jeez man that rocket explosion was EPIC!! A shame for all involved I am quit sure there are lots of empty wallets after that disaster. Space exploration and commercialization is not gonna be cheap. Peace Pete On Wed, Oct 29, 2014 at 11:47 AM, Kirk Wallace kwall...@wallacecompany.com wrote: This subject line caught my eye, but it's a different Mach 3: http://www.nasa.gov/aero/the-warm-glow-of-mach3/#.VFEKydewfiE BTW, if you want to see other NASA e-mail announcements and picture of the week: https://public.govdelivery.com/accounts/USNASA/subscriber/new?preferences=true#tab1 -- Kirk Wallace http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/ http://www.wallacecompany.com/E45/ -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- Pete Matos A and N Precision and Fabrication Maryville, Tennessee 865-236-8996 -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] The Warm Glow of Mach 3
On 10/29/2014 10:58 AM, p...@wpnet.us wrote: All insured I'm sure, just an astronomical premium increase in the works... I wouldn't be so sure about that. I heard that companies stock took a hit today. I'd be bending over a trash can for a while, losing the last several meals, if I was the CEO of that company. SpaceX has had some big issues recently also. I bet that their list of prospective astronauts to ride atop these rockets is dwindling as we speak. But hey, this _IS_ rocket science. I think that Nasa should resurrect the Constellation program. Nasa received most of the tooling required to make the Ares rocket. They even installed and tested the tooling fixtures. Having to pay Russia to launch our crap into low earth orbit is an embarrassment. Dave --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] The Warm Glow of Mach 3
2014-10-29 18:34 GMT-03:00 Dave Cole linuxcncro...@gmail.com: I think that Nasa should resurrect the Constellation program. Nasa received most of the tooling required to make the Ares rocket. They even installed and tested the tooling fixtures. Having to pay Russia to launch our crap into low earth orbit is an embarrassment. And imagine how far we would be now if they hadn't cancelled the Apollo program. I've been reading something about the VASIMR motors to reduce the travelling speed and they would be testing the first prototypes sometime near 2013/2014, but I don't know if that happened or not. Reading wikipedia it says that with this motors the duration of a possible trip to Mars would be of 39 days. Pretty impressive. Anyway, the Plasma motors only would be useful in space, we still need the rockets to escape from the earht's gravity, unless they come with a better system. -- *Leonardo Marsaglia*. -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] The Warm Glow of Mach 3
On 29 October 2014 22:20, Leonardo Marsaglia leonardomarsagli...@gmail.com wrote: we still need the rockets to escape from the earht's gravity, unless they come with a better system. http://www.reactionengines.co.uk/space_skylon.html -- atp If you can't fix it, you don't own it. http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] The Warm Glow of Mach 3
On 10/29/14 4:54 PM, andy pugh wrote: On 29 October 2014 22:20, Leonardo Marsaglia leonardomarsagli...@gmail.com wrote: we still need the rockets to escape from the earht's gravity, unless they come with a better system. http://www.reactionengines.co.uk/space_skylon.html http://autogeny.org/tower/tower.html Like a space elevator, but practical. -- Sebastian Kuzminsky -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] The Warm Glow of Mach 3
On 29 October 2014 23:04, Sebastian Kuzminsky s...@highlab.com wrote: http://www.reactionengines.co.uk/space_skylon.html http://autogeny.org/tower/tower.html Like a space elevator, but practical. Skylon looks like it could be made to work for about 4 billion, and the only totally new parts (heat exchanger and fuel-intercooler scheme) have been demonstrated working. It is mainly a better-designed HOTOL ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HOTOL ) which was described by the actual designer as turned out to be an expensive way to send a hydraulic system to low earth orbit I can't see anyone finding the 4 billion in the current climate though. -- atp If you can't fix it, you don't own it. http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] The Warm Glow of Mach 3
On 10/29/2014 5:20 PM, Leonardo Marsaglia wrote: 2014-10-29 18:34 GMT-03:00 Dave Cole linuxcncro...@gmail.com: I think that Nasa should resurrect the Constellation program. Nasa received most of the tooling required to make the Ares rocket. They even installed and tested the tooling fixtures. Having to pay Russia to launch our crap into low earth orbit is an embarrassment. And imagine how far we would be now if they hadn't cancelled the Apollo program. I've been reading something about the VASIMR motors to reduce the travelling speed and they would be testing the first prototypes sometime near 2013/2014, but I don't know if that happened or not. Reading wikipedia it says that with this motors the duration of a possible trip to Mars would be of 39 days. Pretty impressive. Anyway, the Plasma motors only would be useful in space, we still need the rockets to escape from the earht's gravity, unless they come with a better system. Funny that you mention Apollo... I just heard that the engines on the Antares rocket that blew up last night was using 40 year old refurbished Russian rocket engines.. (no joke - Apollo vintage) A quick search verified that. They were originally made in the 1970's! http://www.theguardian.com/science/2014/oct/29/russian-rocket-crash-virginia I'm always looking for a bargain, but why would anyone in their right mind use refurbished Russian Rocket engines from the 1970's for a launch in 2014 ?? Wouldn't that be a RED FLAG for most engineers?? What were they thinking?? :-( Dave --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] The Warm Glow of Mach 3
As I understand it, those are (basically) the same engines that takes the Soyuz rockets up still.. Truth be told (I'm no expert but have seen some articles to this effect) the Russian rocket engines where much superior to their American counterparts such that since Russia put some of there political views up on the shelf, these motors have been imported into the U.S. in fairly good numbers. Just 'cause it's old doesn't mean it won't work. Might not be as efficient as new technology but if you factor in the cost of acquiring(creating) new technology, sometimes the old stuff is still more efficient. Fwiw Jarrett Johnson All grammar and spelling errors, compliments of my iPhone On Oct 29, 2014, at 18:54, Dave Cole linuxcncro...@gmail.com wrote: On 10/29/2014 5:20 PM, Leonardo Marsaglia wrote: 2014-10-29 18:34 GMT-03:00 Dave Cole linuxcncro...@gmail.com: I think that Nasa should resurrect the Constellation program. Nasa received most of the tooling required to make the Ares rocket. They even installed and tested the tooling fixtures. Having to pay Russia to launch our crap into low earth orbit is an embarrassment. And imagine how far we would be now if they hadn't cancelled the Apollo program. I've been reading something about the VASIMR motors to reduce the travelling speed and they would be testing the first prototypes sometime near 2013/2014, but I don't know if that happened or not. Reading wikipedia it says that with this motors the duration of a possible trip to Mars would be of 39 days. Pretty impressive. Anyway, the Plasma motors only would be useful in space, we still need the rockets to escape from the earht's gravity, unless they come with a better system. Funny that you mention Apollo... I just heard that the engines on the Antares rocket that blew up last night was using 40 year old refurbished Russian rocket engines.. (no joke - Apollo vintage) A quick search verified that. They were originally made in the 1970's! http://www.theguardian.com/science/2014/oct/29/russian-rocket-crash-virginia I'm always looking for a bargain, but why would anyone in their right mind use refurbished Russian Rocket engines from the 1970's for a launch in 2014 ?? Wouldn't that be a RED FLAG for most engineers?? What were they thinking?? :-( Dave --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] The Warm Glow of Mach 3
Yes, the old russian rockets are BETTER than anything the US produced, even today. They are closed cycle. There was a very good documentary on them not too long ago I watched but can't find it now. On Wed, Oct 29, 2014 at 8:07 PM, Home hjjohn...@sasktel.net wrote: As I understand it, those are (basically) the same engines that takes the Soyuz rockets up still.. Truth be told (I'm no expert but have seen some articles to this effect) the Russian rocket engines where much superior to their American counterparts such that since Russia put some of there political views up on the shelf, these motors have been imported into the U.S. in fairly good numbers. Just 'cause it's old doesn't mean it won't work. Might not be as efficient as new technology but if you factor in the cost of acquiring(creating) new technology, sometimes the old stuff is still more efficient. Fwiw Jarrett Johnson All grammar and spelling errors, compliments of my iPhone On Oct 29, 2014, at 18:54, Dave Cole linuxcncro...@gmail.com wrote: On 10/29/2014 5:20 PM, Leonardo Marsaglia wrote: 2014-10-29 18:34 GMT-03:00 Dave Cole linuxcncro...@gmail.com: I think that Nasa should resurrect the Constellation program. Nasa received most of the tooling required to make the Ares rocket. They even installed and tested the tooling fixtures. Having to pay Russia to launch our crap into low earth orbit is an embarrassment. And imagine how far we would be now if they hadn't cancelled the Apollo program. I've been reading something about the VASIMR motors to reduce the travelling speed and they would be testing the first prototypes sometime near 2013/2014, but I don't know if that happened or not. Reading wikipedia it says that with this motors the duration of a possible trip to Mars would be of 39 days. Pretty impressive. Anyway, the Plasma motors only would be useful in space, we still need the rockets to escape from the earht's gravity, unless they come with a better system. Funny that you mention Apollo... I just heard that the engines on the Antares rocket that blew up last night was using 40 year old refurbished Russian rocket engines.. (no joke - Apollo vintage) A quick search verified that. They were originally made in the 1970's! http://www.theguardian.com/science/2014/oct/29/russian-rocket-crash-virginia I'm always looking for a bargain, but why would anyone in their right mind use refurbished Russian Rocket engines from the 1970's for a launch in 2014 ?? Wouldn't that be a RED FLAG for most engineers?? What were they thinking?? :-( Dave --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] The Warm Glow of Mach 3
Found it: the engines that came in from the cold https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLv7-kDhSnm7P1dAiJvvjeiLgwfv8_58TO On Wed, Oct 29, 2014 at 8:15 PM, Stephen Dubovsky smdubov...@gmail.com wrote: Yes, the old russian rockets are BETTER than anything the US produced, even today. They are closed cycle. There was a very good documentary on them not too long ago I watched but can't find it now. On Wed, Oct 29, 2014 at 8:07 PM, Home hjjohn...@sasktel.net wrote: As I understand it, those are (basically) the same engines that takes the Soyuz rockets up still.. Truth be told (I'm no expert but have seen some articles to this effect) the Russian rocket engines where much superior to their American counterparts such that since Russia put some of there political views up on the shelf, these motors have been imported into the U.S. in fairly good numbers. Just 'cause it's old doesn't mean it won't work. Might not be as efficient as new technology but if you factor in the cost of acquiring(creating) new technology, sometimes the old stuff is still more efficient. Fwiw Jarrett Johnson All grammar and spelling errors, compliments of my iPhone On Oct 29, 2014, at 18:54, Dave Cole linuxcncro...@gmail.com wrote: On 10/29/2014 5:20 PM, Leonardo Marsaglia wrote: 2014-10-29 18:34 GMT-03:00 Dave Cole linuxcncro...@gmail.com: I think that Nasa should resurrect the Constellation program. Nasa received most of the tooling required to make the Ares rocket. They even installed and tested the tooling fixtures. Having to pay Russia to launch our crap into low earth orbit is an embarrassment. And imagine how far we would be now if they hadn't cancelled the Apollo program. I've been reading something about the VASIMR motors to reduce the travelling speed and they would be testing the first prototypes sometime near 2013/2014, but I don't know if that happened or not. Reading wikipedia it says that with this motors the duration of a possible trip to Mars would be of 39 days. Pretty impressive. Anyway, the Plasma motors only would be useful in space, we still need the rockets to escape from the earht's gravity, unless they come with a better system. Funny that you mention Apollo... I just heard that the engines on the Antares rocket that blew up last night was using 40 year old refurbished Russian rocket engines.. (no joke - Apollo vintage) A quick search verified that. They were originally made in the 1970's! http://www.theguardian.com/science/2014/oct/29/russian-rocket-crash-virginia I'm always looking for a bargain, but why would anyone in their right mind use refurbished Russian Rocket engines from the 1970's for a launch in 2014 ?? Wouldn't that be a RED FLAG for most engineers?? What were they thinking?? :-( Dave --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] The Warm Glow of Mach 3
On 30 October 2014 00:54, Dave Cole linuxcncro...@gmail.com wrote: I'm always looking for a bargain, but why would anyone in their right mind use refurbished Russian Rocket engines from the 1970's for a launch in 2014 ?? Presumably they were refurbished but unused. (you don't get them back). They were made 40 years ago regardless of cost, and probably very well. To phrase the question another way, why make new at huge cost when NOS are available off the shelf? -- atp If you can't fix it, you don't own it. http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] The Warm Glow of Mach 3
On 10/29/2014 7:22 PM, andy pugh wrote: On 30 October 2014 00:54, Dave Cole linuxcncro...@gmail.com wrote: I'm always looking for a bargain, but why would anyone in their right mind use refurbished Russian Rocket engines from the 1970's for a launch in 2014 ?? Presumably they were refurbished but unused. (you don't get them back). They were made 40 years ago regardless of cost, and probably very well. To phrase the question another way, why make new at huge cost when NOS are available off the shelf? I don't know if the engines caused the problem or not but this launch company bought up a number of these engines in order to economize on their rocket production. The Russian engine maker is distancing themselves from those engines saying that the Americans modified them. Here is an interesting article on the subject of the old Russian engines. http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/10/29/antares-rocket-explosion-the-question-of-using-decades-old-soviet-engines/ Quoting this article: In May, one of its refurbished Soviet engines failed at the Stennis Space Center in Mississippi. Sources claim the engine 'exploded,' reported http://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2014/05/antares-aj-26-engine-fails-stennis-testing/ NASA Space Flight. The failure is currently under evaluation. The Washington Post also said that they had to weld stress corrosion cracks in the engines after 40 years of storage... but at least they were cheap! ;-) A Guardian article: http://www.theguardian.com/science/2014/oct/29/russian-rocket-crash-virginia I am not a huge fan of SpaceX, but they have developed their own engines. I believe they can do better than 1970's technology.Things have advanced a lot since the 70's. Dave --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] The Warm Glow of Mach 3
2014-10-29 20:20 GMT-03:00 andy pugh bodge...@gmail.com: Skylon looks like it could be made to work for about 4 billion, and the only totally new parts (heat exchanger and fuel-intercooler scheme) have been demonstrated working. It is mainly a better-designed HOTOL ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HOTOL ) which was described by the actual designer as turned out to be an expensive way to send a hydraulic system to low earth orbit I can't see anyone finding the 4 billion in the current climate though. I guess that's the main problem with all of these projects. Most of the people are not interested in space travel and what's beyond this planet, hence nobody wants to invest a lot of money on that. The sad thing is, all the great achievements and progress are acomplished in war times. -- *Leonardo Marsaglia*. -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
