Re: [Emc-users] driver for a DC motor for a BS-1.

[Gene Heskett]

On Sunday 15 November 2020 12:45:46 Dave Cole wrote:

> On 11/13/2020 1:24 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > On Thursday 12 November 2020 20:50:10 Dave Cole wrote:
> >> Gene,
> >>
> >> Where did you buy that H bridge board ?  Ebay ?
> >>
> >> Dave
> >
> > Yes, Thats a BTS7960 board. I tried it out tonight, ran the motor at
> > about half speed for about half an hour. No detectable heating of
> > the motor or the device. Running on a 350 watt 24 volt switcher.
> > Found I needed to do some work on the hal file as I was only getting
> > encoder B output back into the 5i25 encoder.01. Probably have an
> > is_output being applied to one of the gpio's that is an input on the
> > bob. But by then I was beat, so that is tomorrows troubleshooting
> > job. For a full test I need to dummy up a hone switch for an index
> > on the the motor since its not yet mounted on the BS-1. Need to
> > figure out how to put one on it that is still out of the way and
> > protected. Someplace behind the front disk I think, and detect a
> > passing screw with an ATS-667 should work ok. Just have the find the
> > giddy-up to do it. I'm finding that with a 30% pump, my giddy-up
> > goes away too easy.  That and make a couple saddles to put the motor
> > in strong enough it won't get knocked coocoo by the choker straps I
> > handle the BS-1 with as its about 200 lbs with the motor and 160mm 3
> > jaw mounted.
> >
> > Take care and stay well, Dave.
>
> Thanks Gene,
>
> I want to try out that H bridge.    The price is certainly right!
>
> Dave
>
This one doesn't run pulse and dir, aka the default pwmgen mode 1, but 
mode 2 in the pwmgen. You'll have to set that in the main .hal file. It 
will likely need lots of Pgain in the pid settings because my motor 
needs about a 10% duration of pulse before it starts creeping along. 
YMMV, but that typical of brushed motors.

But I may have mucked the encoder, I get good looking, excellent 
quadrature signals to a 10x scope probe, but the instant I feed it into 
a BoB with opto inputs, the encoders output looks like its driving a 
0.1uf capacitor.  I've swapped Bobs, and I have 2 more ordered in case 
my spares are toasted.  If that doesn't fix it, I'll have to buffer it 
in a 74HCT245.

Take care Dave.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
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Re: [Emc-users] driver for a DC motor for a BS-1.

[Dave Cole]

On 11/13/2020 1:24 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:

On Thursday 12 November 2020 20:50:10 Dave Cole wrote:


Gene,

Where did you buy that H bridge board ?  Ebay ?

Dave

Yes, Thats a BTS7960 board. I tried it out tonight, ran the motor at
about half speed for about half an hour. No detectable heating of the
motor or the device. Running on a 350 watt 24 volt switcher. Found I
needed to do some work on the hal file as I was only getting encoder B
output back into the 5i25 encoder.01. Probably have an is_output being
applied to one of the gpio's that is an input on the bob. But by then I
was beat, so that is tomorrows troubleshooting job. For a full test I
need to dummy up a hone switch for an index on the the motor since its
not yet mounted on the BS-1. Need to figure out how to put one on it
that is still out of the way and protected. Someplace behind the front
disk I think, and detect a passing screw with an ATS-667 should work ok.
Just have the find the giddy-up to do it. I'm finding that with a 30%
pump, my giddy-up goes away too easy.  That and make a couple saddles to
put the motor in strong enough it won't get knocked coocoo by the choker
straps I handle the BS-1 with as its about 200 lbs with the motor and
160mm 3 jaw mounted.

Take care and stay well, Dave.




Thanks Gene,

I want to try out that H bridge.    The price is certainly right!

Dave



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Re: [Emc-users] driver for a DC motor for a BS-1.

[Gene Heskett]

On Thursday 12 November 2020 20:50:10 Dave Cole wrote:

> Gene,
>
> Where did you buy that H bridge board ?  Ebay ?
>
> Dave

Yes, Thats a BTS7960 board. I tried it out tonight, ran the motor at 
about half speed for about half an hour. No detectable heating of the 
motor or the device. Running on a 350 watt 24 volt switcher. Found I 
needed to do some work on the hal file as I was only getting encoder B 
output back into the 5i25 encoder.01. Probably have an is_output being 
applied to one of the gpio's that is an input on the bob. But by then I 
was beat, so that is tomorrows troubleshooting job. For a full test I 
need to dummy up a hone switch for an index on the the motor since its 
not yet mounted on the BS-1. Need to figure out how to put one on it 
that is still out of the way and protected. Someplace behind the front 
disk I think, and detect a passing screw with an ATS-667 should work ok.  
Just have the find the giddy-up to do it. I'm finding that with a 30% 
pump, my giddy-up goes away too easy.  That and make a couple saddles to 
put the motor in strong enough it won't get knocked coocoo by the choker 
straps I handle the BS-1 with as its about 200 lbs with the motor and 
160mm 3 jaw mounted.

Take care and stay well, Dave.

> > Its taken way too long, but I may have found the driver I need.
> > Miniature board and heat sink for about $13/copy.  Has a pair of
> > Infineon BTS7960B chips on a pcb about 1.5" square, rated for up to
> > 45 volts and 43 amps for each chip and 2 make a full H-bridge. From
> > the looks, its not the datasheet hookup, but has a 74HCT244 in tsop
> > style for an input buffer. Looks like it needs a ground and 5 volts,
> > and probably an enable input, and up and down pwms, mode 2 IOW.
> > Needless to say, no example hookups are to be had. But I'm prowling
> > around in googles output now.  Found them:
> >
> >  >r.pdf>
> >
> > Interestingly, this one is stated to only be good till 27 volts, not
> > the infineon 45 volts. Bridge chips are labeled with an extra B. 
> > 2nd grade stuffs? Probably. I'll advise how it works when I get it
> > wired up.

See above, its going to work great once the encoder and pid are 
programmed.

> > Cheers, Gene Heskett
>
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Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
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Re: [Emc-users] driver for a DC motor for a BS-1.

[Chris Albertson]

I always suggest that people buy stuff the first few times from a
supplier who can offer technical support or at least technical documents
and one who is at least on the same continent as you.

These guys are the best.  Notice they have three tables for low, medium,
and high power drivers.  And if you drill down you get spec sheets, CAD
drawings, and sample code to operate them.
https://www.pololu.com/category/11/brushed-dc-motor-drivers
Read all the How-To about the product before you order as many times they
have suggestions, not on the data sheets

eBay is good after you have enough experience not to need technical details
and you can just figure out how to use whatever they send you.

On Thu, Nov 12, 2020 at 5:50 PM Dave Cole  wrote:

> Gene,
>
> Where did you buy that H bridge board ?  Ebay ?
>
> Dave
>
> On 11/9/2020 5:15 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > On Wednesday 28 October 2020 16:02:51 Gene Heskett wrote:
> >
> >> On Wednesday 28 October 2020 14:30:39 Chris Albertson wrote:
> >>> I bit of information from Polulu's web site.  They say..
> >>>
> >>> "*While VNH3SP30’s over-voltage shutoff doesn’t activate until 36 V,
> >>> in our experience, shoot-through currents make PWM operation
> >>> impractical above 16 V.*"
> >> Which pretty well explains my problems.
> > Its taken way too long, but I may have found the driver I need. Miniature
> > board and heat sink for about $13/copy.  Has a pair of Infineon BTS7960B
> > chips on a pcb about 1.5" square, rated for up to 45 volts and 43 amps
> > for each chip and 2 make a full H-bridge. From the looks, its not the
> > datasheet hookup, but has a 74HCT244 in tsop style for an input buffer.
> > Looks like it needs a ground and 5 volts, and probably an enable input,
> > and up and down pwms, mode 2 IOW. Needless to say, no example hookups
> > are to be had. But I'm prowling around in googles output now.  Found
> > them:
> >
> > <
> https://www.handsontec.com/dataspecs/module/BTS7960%20Motor%20Driver.pdf>
> >
> > Interestingly, this one is stated to only be good till 27 volts, not the
> > infineon 45 volts. Bridge chips are labeled with an extra B.  2nd grade
> > stuffs? Probably. I'll advise how it works when I get it wired up.
> >
> > Cheers, Gene Heskett
>
>
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>


-- 

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California

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Re: [Emc-users] driver for a DC motor for a BS-1.

[Dave Cole]

Gene,

Where did you buy that H bridge board ?  Ebay ?

Dave

On 11/9/2020 5:15 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:

On Wednesday 28 October 2020 16:02:51 Gene Heskett wrote:


On Wednesday 28 October 2020 14:30:39 Chris Albertson wrote:

I bit of information from Polulu's web site.  They say..

"*While VNH3SP30’s over-voltage shutoff doesn’t activate until 36 V,
in our experience, shoot-through currents make PWM operation
impractical above 16 V.*"

Which pretty well explains my problems.

Its taken way too long, but I may have found the driver I need. Miniature
board and heat sink for about $13/copy.  Has a pair of Infineon BTS7960B
chips on a pcb about 1.5" square, rated for up to 45 volts and 43 amps
for each chip and 2 make a full H-bridge. From the looks, its not the
datasheet hookup, but has a 74HCT244 in tsop style for an input buffer.
Looks like it needs a ground and 5 volts, and probably an enable input,
and up and down pwms, mode 2 IOW. Needless to say, no example hookups
are to be had. But I'm prowling around in googles output now.  Found
them:



Interestingly, this one is stated to only be good till 27 volts, not the
infineon 45 volts. Bridge chips are labeled with an extra B.  2nd grade
stuffs? Probably. I'll advise how it works when I get it wired up.

Cheers, Gene Heskett



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Re: [Emc-users] driver for a DC motor for a BS-1.

[Gene Heskett]

On Monday 09 November 2020 19:00:54 Gene Heskett wrote:

> On Monday 09 November 2020 18:16:05 Chris Albertson wrote:
> > No example hookups?  The PDF you linked shows every wire and
> > provides source code for software to control the motor.They use
> > a pictorial diagram rather than a schematic.
> >
> > Then there are two links on the last page of the PDF.  The first
> > link is to a very easy to follow tutorial that explains a little of
> > the theory of operation and how PWM and h-bridges work.
> >
> > I would suggest actually connecting this to an Arduino or the like
> > to prove that it works.   As you can see the microcontroller code is
> > very simple and easy to read.  It will be 1000 times more complex
> > using LCNC, so I like to verify using Arduino.
>
> But Chris, I already have a control cable from the bob laying out
> where I can play with it, and all I have to do is hook the control
> signals to the correct places on the new board.  If it moves the
> motor, hook up the encoder cable too.  If that works, take it apart
> and make it neat.  Its already all done in linuxcnc, why should I
> learn a new processors language just to prove it does or does not
> work?  Seem like a good way to waste another 2 months, I can do it
> tomorrow. I still have way more work than this making the motor mounts
> and installing an index generator on the bs-1 so I can calibrate its
> SCALE since I have no clue what the scale of the motors built in
> encoder has, so measure it by 100 times past the index.  And divide
> the count difference by 100 for the SCALE. That code is also already
> done, all I have to do is steer the motors encoder signals to the 2nd
> encoder and steer that code to watch the 2nd encoder.  Read the answer
> with a halmeter. But its all commented out in the hal file as I knew
> I'd need it again when I wrote it years ago.
>
Progress of sorts. Slower than I'd like, because;

The 2x4 pin pattern for the boards input is being a PITA, can't get the 
jumpers to stay plugged onto the pins, but I did find out the motor runs 
ok with no driver heat at all under dc drive, and while it jumps some 
getting started, it almost jumps off the table stopping, the crowbar 
effect is certainly present and accounted for.  So I think its going to 
work quite well when I get the logic all wired up for a pwmgen mode 2. I 
was all hal'ed up for a mode 1 control, but this board is dumb, direct 
to the H-bridge so it needs pwmgen mode 2. Which changes the wiring 
some, plus I've wired up its own separate enable.

So I'm taking a break while the goop sets up overnight.  Maybe it will 
hold connections while I wire up the rest of it and test it by running 
it with linuxcnc.

My little bowl of panther piss did not affect the dried pink stuff. So I 
guess I run it till the smoke comes out.  I stopped at the rv place, and 
they have never had this happen with the stuff they sell, even if it 
sits in an rv system for years, so they had no clue how to attack it 
chemically to remove it. The filter is a little darker a pink, but the 
flow has not improved. So the pump is still running.

Take care everybody.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-users] driver for a DC motor for a BS-1.

[Gene Heskett]

On Monday 09 November 2020 18:16:05 Chris Albertson wrote:

> No example hookups?  The PDF you linked shows every wire and provides
> source code for software to control the motor.They use a pictorial
> diagram rather than a schematic.
>
> Then there are two links on the last page of the PDF.  The first link
> is to a very easy to follow tutorial that explains a little of the
> theory of operation and how PWM and h-bridges work.
>
> I would suggest actually connecting this to an Arduino or the like to
> prove that it works.   As you can see the microcontroller code is very
> simple and easy to read.  It will be 1000 times more complex using
> LCNC, so I like to verify using Arduino.

But Chris, I already have a control cable from the bob laying out where I 
can play with it, and all I have to do is hook the control signals to 
the correct places on the new board.  If it moves the motor, hook up the 
encoder cable too.  If that works, take it apart and make it neat.  Its 
already all done in linuxcnc, why should I learn a new processors 
language just to prove it does or does not work?  Seem like a good way 
to waste another 2 months, I can do it tomorrow. I still have way more 
work than this making the motor mounts and installing an index generator 
on the bs-1 so I can calibrate its SCALE since I have no clue what the 
scale of the motors built in encoder has, so measure it by 100 times 
past the index.  And divide the count difference by 100 for the SCALE. 
That code is also already done, all I have to do is steer the motors 
encoder signals to the 2nd encoder and steer that code to watch the 2nd 
encoder.  Read the answer with a halmeter. But its all commented out in 
the hal file as I knew I'd need it again when I wrote it years ago.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-users] driver for a DC motor for a BS-1.

[Chris Albertson]

No example hookups?  The PDF you linked shows every wire and provides
source code for software to control the motor.They use a pictorial
diagram rather than a schematic.

Then there are two links on the last page of the PDF.  The first link is to
a very easy to follow tutorial that explains a little of the theory of
operation and how PWM and h-bridges work.

I would suggest actually connecting this to an Arduino or the like to
prove that it works.   As you can see the microcontroller code is very
simple and easy to read.  It will be 1000 times more complex using LCNC, so
I like to verify using Arduino.

On Mon, Nov 9, 2020 at 2:19 PM Gene Heskett  wrote:

>  Needless to say, no example hookups
> are to be had. But I'm prowling around in googles output now.  Found
> them:
>
> 
>
-- 

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California

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Re: [Emc-users] driver for a DC motor for a BS-1.

[Gene Heskett]

On Wednesday 28 October 2020 16:02:51 Gene Heskett wrote:

> On Wednesday 28 October 2020 14:30:39 Chris Albertson wrote:
> > I bit of information from Polulu's web site.  They say..
> >
> > "*While VNH3SP30’s over-voltage shutoff doesn’t activate until 36 V,
> > in our experience, shoot-through currents make PWM operation
> > impractical above 16 V.*"
>
> Which pretty well explains my problems.

Its taken way too long, but I may have found the driver I need. Miniature 
board and heat sink for about $13/copy.  Has a pair of Infineon BTS7960B 
chips on a pcb about 1.5" square, rated for up to 45 volts and 43 amps 
for each chip and 2 make a full H-bridge. From the looks, its not the 
datasheet hookup, but has a 74HCT244 in tsop style for an input buffer. 
Looks like it needs a ground and 5 volts, and probably an enable input, 
and up and down pwms, mode 2 IOW. Needless to say, no example hookups 
are to be had. But I'm prowling around in googles output now.  Found 
them:



Interestingly, this one is stated to only be good till 27 volts, not the 
infineon 45 volts. Bridge chips are labeled with an extra B.  2nd grade 
stuffs? Probably. I'll advise how it works when I get it wired up.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-users] driver for a DC motor for a BS-1.

[Gene Heskett]

On Thursday 29 October 2020 15:02:16 Gene Heskett wrote:

> On Thursday 29 October 2020 14:08:37 Chris Albertson wrote:
> > If the motor is expensive or hard to get, keep it and use a driver
> > rated for more volts.As said, you can buy four MOSFETS and make
> > a driver that is good enough for a use-case where A/C mains is
> > available and you are not trying to squeeze every drop of power from
> > a battery. Homemade h-bridges tend to waste power and turn it to
> > heat.But maybe not.  Today they sell "logic level" MOSFETS that
> > you can drive with 3.3 volts.
> >
> > If you don't like dealing with low-level drivers they sell
> > controllers that work at a high level and will servo the motor to
> > some commanded position. But you'd pay $100 for that. or $4 for a
> > handful of MOSFETS.
> >
> > Good 12V motors are really cheap because they are mass-produced for
> > the automotive industry.
>
> But this one wasn't built for car apps, its made to run driveway gates
> sliding across estate driveways, supposedly to keep out the riff-raff
> like me. :)  And it has a builtin encoder so the gate driver knows
> where the gate is. That sort of stuff tends to be 24 volt based. Less
> power loses on lighter ga wiring etc. The price of copper often drives
> that design choice. UL also has vastly different safety rules for 24
> volt compared to 120 volt stuff.  But you knew all that. :)
>
> [...]
PS, I don't know if I have a problem or not. I changed pwmgen_type to a 2 
just to see what the signals looked like, then downloaded the datasheet.
I find its too slow to respond to the narrower pulses the pwmgen can 
output. Lots of Pgain might overcome the narrower pulse problem by 
forcing the error response until its wide enough to move the motor, and 
there is a deadband where no pulses are generated about 70mv wide 
centered around zero error.

But until I try it next week, thats not a huge concern. The data sheet is 
for one half-bridge, and these boards use 2 of them to make a full H 
bridge.  And this chip is also pretty ancient, 2004 ack the datashhets 
history.

But the mesa cards output a logic high on both lines when lcnc is not 
running. Which is effectively anytime F2 is not in the machine enabled 
state because that is also the main power for all the motors.  Because 
the interface is continuously powered. My own logic says that will send 
both motor leads to the top of the supply, asserting a near short on the 
motor, but there is not any motor power until the soft start time delays 
run out about 2 seconds later.  But at release of f2, these pwm lines 
are sent to a logic one instantly, while the supplies are left to bleed 
off by whatever means, which could take 30 seconds or more.

Can anyone see a problem? Or am I barking at the moon?...  My logic says 
both dir lines high is net zero to the motor, but maybe somebody else 
has a more experienced view. Plz advise.

Thank you.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
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Re: [Emc-users] driver for a DC motor for a BS-1.

[Gene Heskett]

On Thursday 29 October 2020 14:08:37 Chris Albertson wrote:

> If the motor is expensive or hard to get, keep it and use a driver
> rated for more volts.As said, you can buy four MOSFETS and make a
> driver that is good enough for a use-case where A/C mains is available
> and you are not trying to squeeze every drop of power from a battery. 
> Homemade h-bridges tend to waste power and turn it to heat.But
> maybe not.  Today they sell "logic level" MOSFETS that you can drive
> with 3.3 volts.
>
> If you don't like dealing with low-level drivers they sell controllers
> that work at a high level and will servo the motor to some commanded
> position. But you'd pay $100 for that. or $4 for a handful of MOSFETS.
>
> Good 12V motors are really cheap because they are mass-produced for
> the automotive industry.

But this one wasn't built for car apps, its made to run driveway gates 
sliding across estate driveways, supposedly to keep out the riff-raff 
like me. :)  And it has a builtin encoder so the gate driver knows where 
the gate is. That sort of stuff tends to be 24 volt based. Less power 
loses on lighter ga wiring etc. The price of copper often drives that 
design choice. UL also has vastly different safety rules for 24 volt 
compared to 120 volt stuff.  But you knew all that. :)

[...]

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-users] driver for a DC motor for a BS-1.

[Chris Albertson]

If the motor is expensive or hard to get, keep it and use a driver rated
for more volts.As said, you can buy four MOSFETS and make a driver that
is good enough for a use-case where A/C mains is available and you are not
trying to squeeze every drop of power from a battery.  Homemade h-bridges
tend to waste power and turn it to heat.But maybe not.  Today they sell
"logic level" MOSFETS that you can drive with 3.3 volts.

If you don't like dealing with low-level drivers they sell controllers that
work at a high level and will servo the motor to some commanded position.
But you'd pay $100 for that. or $4 for a handful of MOSFETS.

Good 12V motors are really cheap because they are mass-produced for the
automotive industry.

On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 3:19 PM Gene Heskett  wrote:

> On Wednesday 28 October 2020 16:42:30 Chris Albertson wrote:
>
> > Looks like you should  buy a few MOSFETS and make an h-bridge.   But
> > driving the lower side of the h-bridge from 5 volt logic level is not
> > super easy.
> >
> > Either that or just use a 12Volt motor
> >
> It took me 4 months to buy that 24 volt motor. People were advertising it
> on ebay who did not in fact have it for sale. The first guy that offered
> to sell it to me turned out to be the same jerk who sold me the 6040
> mill with the junk electronics that I had to replace one of the motors
> and all of the electronics before I had a working mill. He drug me
> around for a month before finally getting the message that I wanted the
> motor fedexed overnite or canceled. He canceled and refunded my card.
>
> The next guy, who claimed it was in the same warehouse in Chino CA, was
> still over 3 weeks getting it here by fedex.
>
> And now you want me to change it for a 12 volt motor? A 90 volt would
> make more sense as I've spare psu capacity and another of Jon's
> pwm-servo's to drive it with once its repaired. But either version seems
> to be made of the same unobtainium as hens teeth. So I've bought two
> copies if a 36 volt, 15 amp controller I can run using the same signals
> as the first 2 boards I would need to run in well deionized water for
> coolant. But I'd need a place for a well sealed 5 gallon tank and a
> water pump big enough to both cool the chips AND pump some of it thru a
> deionizer cartridge, another very expensive item.  You learn about that
> around broadcast transmitters as stuff above 10 kw, is usually water
> cooled.  And the water circulates between grounded plumbing and anode
> voltages rangeing up to 7200 volts. Pure water is an insulator.
>
> You keep that water in perfect insulating condition or replace expen$ive
> stuff every 6 months from corrosion.
>
> [...]
>
> Cheers, Gene Heskett
> --
> "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
>  soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
> -Ed Howdershelt (Author)
> If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
>  - Louis D. Brandeis
> Genes Web page 
>
>
> ___
> Emc-users mailing list
> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>


-- 

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California

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Re: [Emc-users] driver for a DC motor for a BS-1.

[Gene Heskett]

On Wednesday 28 October 2020 16:42:30 Chris Albertson wrote:

> Looks like you should  buy a few MOSFETS and make an h-bridge.   But
> driving the lower side of the h-bridge from 5 volt logic level is not
> super easy.
>
> Either that or just use a 12Volt motor
>
It took me 4 months to buy that 24 volt motor. People were advertising it 
on ebay who did not in fact have it for sale. The first guy that offered 
to sell it to me turned out to be the same jerk who sold me the 6040 
mill with the junk electronics that I had to replace one of the motors 
and all of the electronics before I had a working mill. He drug me 
around for a month before finally getting the message that I wanted the 
motor fedexed overnite or canceled. He canceled and refunded my card.

The next guy, who claimed it was in the same warehouse in Chino CA, was 
still over 3 weeks getting it here by fedex.

And now you want me to change it for a 12 volt motor? A 90 volt would 
make more sense as I've spare psu capacity and another of Jon's 
pwm-servo's to drive it with once its repaired. But either version seems 
to be made of the same unobtainium as hens teeth. So I've bought two 
copies if a 36 volt, 15 amp controller I can run using the same signals 
as the first 2 boards I would need to run in well deionized water for 
coolant. But I'd need a place for a well sealed 5 gallon tank and a 
water pump big enough to both cool the chips AND pump some of it thru a 
deionizer cartridge, another very expensive item.  You learn about that 
around broadcast transmitters as stuff above 10 kw, is usually water 
cooled.  And the water circulates between grounded plumbing and anode 
voltages rangeing up to 7200 volts. Pure water is an insulator.

You keep that water in perfect insulating condition or replace expen$ive 
stuff every 6 months from corrosion.

[...]

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-users] driver for a DC motor for a BS-1.

[Chris Albertson]

Looks like you should  buy a few MOSFETS and make an h-bridge.   But
driving the lower side of the h-bridge from 5 volt logic level is not super
easy.

Either that or just use a 12Volt motor



On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 1:05 PM Gene Heskett  wrote:

> On Wednesday 28 October 2020 14:30:39 Chris Albertson wrote:
>
> > I bit of information from Polulu's web site.  They say..
> >
> > "*While VNH3SP30’s over-voltage shutoff doesn’t activate until 36 V,
> > in our experience, shoot-through currents make PWM operation
> > impractical above 16 V.*"
>
> Which pretty well explains my problems.
>
> > This seems reasonable for the intended automotive use case where a
> > lead/acid battery is supplying the power. but there may be transient
> > up to 3X the nominal battery voltage.
> >
> > I've never run these using more than the nominal 15.7 volts I get from
> > a fully charged LiPo battery and when bench testing I use a 12 volt
> > power supply that does about 13.5 volts. Try running your motor on
> > 12 volts
> >
> > I think the way to go is to just buy from Polulu and not try to sav $2
> > on eBay.  Polulu actually offers support  Here is one that seems to
> > actually handle higher volts https://www.pololu.com/product/1457
>
> Which reads much like the ones I bought two of, for less that half of
> polulu's asking for that board @$60/copy.
>
> > Or you just buy four MOSFETS and build you own switch
> >
> > Another one I was not going to recommend because of the cost is really
> > excellent and again their support os excellent.   I had a problem and
> > they offered to replace the unit.  They will also talk with you about
> > software. But you pay for the support in the product price.
>
> Obviously.
>
> > This unit has input from the quadrature encoders and runs the PID loop
> > itself.   The computer (That would be some HAL component in LCNC)
> > sends only the desired position or the desired velocity of one of the
> > interfaces.   There are a few to choose from, RS232, USB, PWM and
> > analog. ThePID has an autotune feature that can get you in the
> > ball-park
> >
> > I use one of these to drive a mobile robot's traction motors.  It
> > pushes a lot of complexity out of my control computer because this
> > controller does the encoder processing and PID control .   But these
> > are $90 devices and I've switched to using these
> >
> > https://protosupplies.com/product/vnh2sp30-dual-monster-motor-shield/
> >
> > The above is the EXCELLENT tutorial on using the VNH3SP30 chip and the
> > dual-chip version attached to an Arduino-like board with zero wires or
> > solder.   It just plugs in.  But I buy the dual-chip boards from China
> > for $7 each.  Much cheaper than the 90 Roboclaw units.
> >
> > These dual-chip drivers are widely cloned because the design is Open
> > Sourced.  The Egle design files are available
> >
> > So my now-standard motion control setup is one of these:
> > ebay.com/itm/Dual-VNH3ASP30-...
> >  >er-Module-30A-Monster-Moto-Shield/291549918162?hash=item43e1bab3d2:g:14
> >wAAOSwVb5d8guN> plugged into one of these you can get for about $14.
> > www.st.com/en/evaluation-tools/nucleo-f446re.html
> >
> > My experience is that I can drive this with a lipo battery for hours
> > and the chips are not even warm.  That may change as my current
> > project is a Kidie car conversion.   It is the kind of toy car that
> > hold two 6-year old kids and goes up to 6 MPH on the sidewalk.
> > Fisher-price sells them
> > www.target.com/p/power-wheels-tough-talking-jeep-powered-ride-on-black
> >-red
> >  >-on-black-red/-/A-53016862#lnk=sametab> The car is being adapted to
> > autonomous self-drive and will do laps around the block with no
> > driver.
> > These VNH3SP30 chips (and the nucleo-f446re) will power the rear drive
> > wheels.   The car's total weight (including a lead/acid marine
> > battery) is about 100 pounds.The driver chips really can handle
> > maybe 100W per chip or 50W continuous
>
> Given their admitted NOW maximum voltage, good deal. But 12 volts might
> not even start this 24 volt motor. :(
>
> Thank you for finding that bit of data that is NOT in their docs on the
> STM site. But I'll also stand by my comments re the poor internal gate
> drivers, way too small to drive a high current device as the gate
> capacitance in some of those can be a major piece of a microfarad.  It
> takes higher powered drivers to charge and discharge that level of gate
> capacitance in a timely manner when it is comeing on it is essentially a
> miller run-up, the gate capacitance is multiplied by the devices gain
> forming a huge negative feedback loop while the drain voltage is
> falling. A higher drain=worse effect. And the effect is there again when
> its turning off, the rising drainvoltage feed back thru that
> capacitance, slowing the off transition by the same fe

Re: [Emc-users] driver for a DC motor for a BS-1.

[Gene Heskett]

On Wednesday 28 October 2020 14:30:39 Chris Albertson wrote:

> I bit of information from Polulu's web site.  They say..
>
> "*While VNH3SP30’s over-voltage shutoff doesn’t activate until 36 V,
> in our experience, shoot-through currents make PWM operation
> impractical above 16 V.*"

Which pretty well explains my problems.

> This seems reasonable for the intended automotive use case where a
> lead/acid battery is supplying the power. but there may be transient
> up to 3X the nominal battery voltage.
>
> I've never run these using more than the nominal 15.7 volts I get from
> a fully charged LiPo battery and when bench testing I use a 12 volt
> power supply that does about 13.5 volts. Try running your motor on
> 12 volts
>
> I think the way to go is to just buy from Polulu and not try to sav $2
> on eBay.  Polulu actually offers support  Here is one that seems to
> actually handle higher volts https://www.pololu.com/product/1457

Which reads much like the ones I bought two of, for less that half of 
polulu's asking for that board @$60/copy.

> Or you just buy four MOSFETS and build you own switch
>
> Another one I was not going to recommend because of the cost is really
> excellent and again their support os excellent.   I had a problem and
> they offered to replace the unit.  They will also talk with you about
> software. But you pay for the support in the product price.

Obviously.

> This unit has input from the quadrature encoders and runs the PID loop
> itself.   The computer (That would be some HAL component in LCNC)
> sends only the desired position or the desired velocity of one of the
> interfaces.   There are a few to choose from, RS232, USB, PWM and
> analog. ThePID has an autotune feature that can get you in the
> ball-park
>
> I use one of these to drive a mobile robot's traction motors.  It
> pushes a lot of complexity out of my control computer because this
> controller does the encoder processing and PID control .   But these
> are $90 devices and I've switched to using these
>
> https://protosupplies.com/product/vnh2sp30-dual-monster-motor-shield/
>
> The above is the EXCELLENT tutorial on using the VNH3SP30 chip and the
> dual-chip version attached to an Arduino-like board with zero wires or
> solder.   It just plugs in.  But I buy the dual-chip boards from China
> for $7 each.  Much cheaper than the 90 Roboclaw units.
>
> These dual-chip drivers are widely cloned because the design is Open
> Sourced.  The Egle design files are available
>
> So my now-standard motion control setup is one of these:
> ebay.com/itm/Dual-VNH3ASP30-...
> er-Module-30A-Monster-Moto-Shield/291549918162?hash=item43e1bab3d2:g:14
>wAAOSwVb5d8guN> plugged into one of these you can get for about $14.
> www.st.com/en/evaluation-tools/nucleo-f446re.html
>
> My experience is that I can drive this with a lipo battery for hours
> and the chips are not even warm.  That may change as my current
> project is a Kidie car conversion.   It is the kind of toy car that
> hold two 6-year old kids and goes up to 6 MPH on the sidewalk.  
> Fisher-price sells them
> www.target.com/p/power-wheels-tough-talking-jeep-powered-ride-on-black
>-red
> -on-black-red/-/A-53016862#lnk=sametab> The car is being adapted to
> autonomous self-drive and will do laps around the block with no
> driver.
> These VNH3SP30 chips (and the nucleo-f446re) will power the rear drive
> wheels.   The car's total weight (including a lead/acid marine
> battery) is about 100 pounds.The driver chips really can handle
> maybe 100W per chip or 50W continuous

Given their admitted NOW maximum voltage, good deal. But 12 volts might 
not even start this 24 volt motor. :(

Thank you for finding that bit of data that is NOT in their docs on the 
STM site. But I'll also stand by my comments re the poor internal gate 
drivers, way too small to drive a high current device as the gate 
capacitance in some of those can be a major piece of a microfarad.  It 
takes higher powered drivers to charge and discharge that level of gate 
capacitance in a timely manner when it is comeing on it is essentially a 
miller run-up, the gate capacitance is multiplied by the devices gain 
forming a huge negative feedback loop while the drain voltage is 
falling. A higher drain=worse effect. And the effect is there again when 
its turning off, the rising drainvoltage feed back thru that 
capacitance, slowing the off transition by the same feedback mechanism.  
Needs about 100x what they actually built in an oxide lined tub on the 
same die, to do the job right.  Plainly, the chips layout designer 
should have been fired, along with the prof that supposedly taught that 
coarse.

Thanks Chris.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (

Re: [Emc-users] driver for a DC motor for a BS-1.

[Chris Albertson]

Forgot a link, sorry.  These really are good.  ANd they come with a
"forever" warranty and "forever" tech support

This is the unit I have
https://www.basicmicro.com/RoboClaw-2x15A-Motor-Controller_p_10.html

They also sell units for single motor control and larger and smaller
motor.   On mine, one of the electrolytic caps "blew" after about 18
months.   I emailed and they said "send it back" they repaired at not
cost. The factory is here in California.

There is a nice GIU app for setting the internal parameters like gain and
current and acceleration limits.   All this kind of control is done
on-board.   If you don't like the GIU, the same can be done over RS232 or
USB.  They supply the documentation and also sample software.

With these Roboclaw units you can use some very good encoders because the
units accteo over 10 MHz on the encoder pins.

But as I said, the VNH3SP30 is 12X lower price  Hard to beat.



On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 11:30 AM Chris Albertson 
wrote:

> I bit of information from Polulu's web site.  They say..
>
> "*While VNH3SP30’s over-voltage shutoff doesn’t activate until 36 V, in
> our experience, shoot-through currents make PWM operation impractical above
> 16 V.*"
>
> This seems reasonable for the intended automotive use case where a
> lead/acid battery is supplying the power. but there may be transient up to
> 3X the nominal battery voltage.
>
> I've never run these using more than the nominal 15.7 volts I get from a
> fully charged LiPo battery and when bench testing I use a 12 volt power
> supply that does about 13.5 volts. Try running your motor on 12 volts
>
> I think the way to go is to just buy from Polulu and not try to sav $2 on
> eBay.  Polulu actually offers support  Here is one that seems to
> actually handle higher volts https://www.pololu.com/product/1457
>
> Or you just buy four MOSFETS and build you own switch
>
> Another one I was not going to recommend because of the cost is really
> excellent and again their support os excellent.   I had a problem and they
> offered to replace the unit.  They will also talk with you about software.
> But you pay for the support in the product price.
>
> This unit has input from the quadrature encoders and runs the PID loop
> itself.   The computer (That would be some HAL component in LCNC) sends
> only the desired position or the desired velocity of one of the
> interfaces.   There are a few to choose from, RS232, USB, PWM and analog.
>   ThePID has an autotune feature that can get you in the ball-park
>
> I use one of these to drive a mobile robot's traction motors.  It pushes a
> lot of complexity out of my control computer because this controller does
> the encoder processing and PID control .   But these are $90 devices and
> I've switched to using these
>
> https://protosupplies.com/product/vnh2sp30-dual-monster-motor-shield/
>
> The above is the EXCELLENT tutorial on using the VNH3SP30 chip and the
> dual-chip version attached to an Arduino-like board with zero wires or
> solder.   It just plugs in.  But I buy the dual-chip boards from China for
> $7 each.  Much cheaper than the 90 Roboclaw units.
>
> These dual-chip drivers are widely cloned because the design is Open
> Sourced.  The Egle design files are available
>
> So my now-standard motion control setup is one of these:
> ebay.com/itm/Dual-VNH3ASP30-...
> 
> plugged into one of these you can get for about $14.
> www.st.com/en/evaluation-tools/nucleo-f446re.html
>
> My experience is that I can drive this with a lipo battery for hours and
> the chips are not even warm.  That may change as my current project is a
> Kidie car conversion.   It is the kind of toy car that hold two 6-year old
> kids and goes up to 6 MPH on the sidewalk.   Fisher-price sells them
> www.target.com/p/power-wheels-tough-talking-jeep-powered-ride-on-black-red
> 
> The car is being adapted to autonomous self-drive and will do laps around
> the block with no driver.
> These VNH3SP30 chips (and the nucleo-f446re) will power the rear drive
> wheels.   The car's total weight (including a lead/acid marine battery) is
> about 100 pounds.The driver chips really can handle maybe 100W per chip
> or 50W continuous
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 1:04 AM Gene Heskett  wrote:
>
>> On Tuesday 27 October 2020 09:33:41 Gene Heskett wrote:
>>
>> Hooked up the 420 watt driver.   Can't find any input high pass filter,
>> so I am feeding it a low frequency square wave of up to 80 mv peak to
>> peak. It took a couple hours of diligent net search to find a copy of
>> that chips docs. Apparently the car amplifier folks still think, 5 years
>> after this chip was first shipped, class D is still a proprietary
>> secret.  Rated at 33db of gain, an 8

Re: [Emc-users] driver for a DC motor for a BS-1.

[Chris Albertson]

I bit of information from Polulu's web site.  They say..

"*While VNH3SP30’s over-voltage shutoff doesn’t activate until 36 V, in our
experience, shoot-through currents make PWM operation impractical above
16 V.*"

This seems reasonable for the intended automotive use case where a
lead/acid battery is supplying the power. but there may be transient up to
3X the nominal battery voltage.

I've never run these using more than the nominal 15.7 volts I get from a
fully charged LiPo battery and when bench testing I use a 12 volt power
supply that does about 13.5 volts. Try running your motor on 12 volts

I think the way to go is to just buy from Polulu and not try to sav $2 on
eBay.  Polulu actually offers support  Here is one that seems to
actually handle higher volts https://www.pololu.com/product/1457

Or you just buy four MOSFETS and build you own switch

Another one I was not going to recommend because of the cost is really
excellent and again their support os excellent.   I had a problem and they
offered to replace the unit.  They will also talk with you about software.
But you pay for the support in the product price.

This unit has input from the quadrature encoders and runs the PID loop
itself.   The computer (That would be some HAL component in LCNC) sends
only the desired position or the desired velocity of one of the
interfaces.   There are a few to choose from, RS232, USB, PWM and analog.
  ThePID has an autotune feature that can get you in the ball-park

I use one of these to drive a mobile robot's traction motors.  It pushes a
lot of complexity out of my control computer because this controller does
the encoder processing and PID control .   But these are $90 devices and
I've switched to using these

https://protosupplies.com/product/vnh2sp30-dual-monster-motor-shield/

The above is the EXCELLENT tutorial on using the VNH3SP30 chip and the
dual-chip version attached to an Arduino-like board with zero wires or
solder.   It just plugs in.  But I buy the dual-chip boards from China for
$7 each.  Much cheaper than the 90 Roboclaw units.

These dual-chip drivers are widely cloned because the design is Open
Sourced.  The Egle design files are available

So my now-standard motion control setup is one of these:
ebay.com/itm/Dual-VNH3ASP30-...

plugged into one of these you can get for about $14.
www.st.com/en/evaluation-tools/nucleo-f446re.html

My experience is that I can drive this with a lipo battery for hours and
the chips are not even warm.  That may change as my current project is a
Kidie car conversion.   It is the kind of toy car that hold two 6-year old
kids and goes up to 6 MPH on the sidewalk.   Fisher-price sells them
www.target.com/p/power-wheels-tough-talking-jeep-powered-ride-on-black-red

The car is being adapted to autonomous self-drive and will do laps around
the block with no driver.
These VNH3SP30 chips (and the nucleo-f446re) will power the rear drive
wheels.   The car's total weight (including a lead/acid marine battery) is
about 100 pounds.The driver chips really can handle maybe 100W per chip
or 50W continuous





On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 1:04 AM Gene Heskett  wrote:

> On Tuesday 27 October 2020 09:33:41 Gene Heskett wrote:
>
> Hooked up the 420 watt driver.   Can't find any input high pass filter,
> so I am feeding it a low frequency square wave of up to 80 mv peak to
> peak. It took a couple hours of diligent net search to find a copy of
> that chips docs. Apparently the car amplifier folks still think, 5 years
> after this chip was first shipped, class D is still a proprietary
> secret.  Rated at 33db of gain, an 80 mv signal should drive it halfway
> to the rails.
>
> AC from a big toroid power tranny is about 53 volts with a grounded
> center tap, shows about 10 volts per rail less that the 42 volt warning
> some guy on u-tube claimed.
>
> From the lack of input filter, I get the impression this thing will
> amplify a dc error.  But the output is both low and noisy, and both
> terminals are in phase. Which makes zero sense. Running its class D at
> 250  kilohertz, and zero drive, the heat sink sits at 126F and doesn't
> get a lot warmer with 2 or 3 volts of drive. And while it might make the
> motor tick occasionally, it doesn't move the motor.  Rated to drive
> speakers down to 2 ohms, 4 preferred, 8 tolerable, this motor is 2.7
> ohms stopped. Ought to be right at home.  So the results are "puzzling".
>
> Previous playing with the 150 watt driver says it can absolutely hammer
> that motor, but with a single ended supply, it has a high pass filter in
> its input so it can be driven with ground referenced audio.
> I'll play some more, and read the 42 page doc I found for clues after
> I've gotten some more s

Re: [Emc-users] driver for a DC motor for a BS-1.

[Gene Heskett]

On Wednesday 28 October 2020 04:01:18 Gene Heskett wrote:

I can't get anything but a little room heat out of the 420 watter.  
Reading the chip docs I get the impression there are needed control sigs 
that are not brought out to the edge of the board. Running at 52 volts 
in, nothing on the output, sink temps are 140F.  So its running 
internally, nice clean waveforms at the output filter input, but not 
getting drive from the input terminals.  Mute is on or something.

Another damned delay, till at least the middle of November from China.

I bought 2 of the 8 transistor motor drivers for $28, looks like they 
take the same signals the seat motor driver takes, 2 complementary dirs 
and a pwm.  Rated at 15 amps, and 55 volts max power in. it should drive 
a 4 amp motor from a 24v 350 watt supply, or a rectified and filtered dc 
from this transformer. I can adjust its output in 11 or 13 volt steps, 
lots of taps.

But I expect we'll see if I live long enough to make it work AND use it. 
Gr, not good for ulcers and whatever.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-users] driver for a DC motor for a BS-1.

[Gene Heskett]

On Tuesday 27 October 2020 09:33:41 Gene Heskett wrote:

Hooked up the 420 watt driver.   Can't find any input high pass filter, 
so I am feeding it a low frequency square wave of up to 80 mv peak to 
peak. It took a couple hours of diligent net search to find a copy of 
that chips docs. Apparently the car amplifier folks still think, 5 years 
after this chip was first shipped, class D is still a proprietary 
secret.  Rated at 33db of gain, an 80 mv signal should drive it halfway 
to the rails.

AC from a big toroid power tranny is about 53 volts with a grounded 
center tap, shows about 10 volts per rail less that the 42 volt warning 
some guy on u-tube claimed. 

>From the lack of input filter, I get the impression this thing will 
amplify a dc error.  But the output is both low and noisy, and both 
terminals are in phase. Which makes zero sense. Running its class D at 
250  kilohertz, and zero drive, the heat sink sits at 126F and doesn't 
get a lot warmer with 2 or 3 volts of drive. And while it might make the 
motor tick occasionally, it doesn't move the motor.  Rated to drive 
speakers down to 2 ohms, 4 preferred, 8 tolerable, this motor is 2.7 
ohms stopped. Ought to be right at home.  So the results are "puzzling".

Previous playing with the 150 watt driver says it can absolutely hammer 
that motor, but with a single ended supply, it has a high pass filter in 
its input so it can be driven with ground referenced audio.
I'll play some more, and read the 42 page doc I found for clues after 
I've gotten some more sleep time.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


___
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Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
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Re: [Emc-users] driver for a DC motor for a BS-1.

[Gene Heskett]

On Tuesday 27 October 2020 04:14:14 Gene Heskett wrote:

I put the 2nd one in.

The dir signals are solid, going slightly above 5 volts even.
The pwm starts outputing pulses at input of .04, either polarity, into 
the pwmgen value. At that point it is not steady as the pwmgen has 
decayed into pdm, and is a 200ns pulse, raising the input high enough to 
get a steady train of 200ns pulse at a 2 kilohertz rate, its holding at 
about 107F for temps.

This is with a much smaller 12 volt motor, and escapee from a dosage pump 
used in hospital setting. About an inch each way, teeny little thing.
raising the input to .2 results in a steady train of pulses, 400ns wide 
at 2 khz.  And the chip temp is about 160F.

At a .3 input, the pulses are around 600ns and the temp is 178F
At a .35 input, pulses are 800ns, temp is about 190F
At a .4 input, pulse are a full microsecond, and temp is 200F
Running it up to around .8, the little motor finally started, but well 
above 200F as it didn't run long enough to get a reading from my IR 
thermometer.  Thermal shutdown. Internal slew rates from way undersized 
gate drivers are the problem. Rise and fall times of the input signals 
are under 10ns, so they definitely are not a problem.  Got to find 
something that doesn't have such glacial switching times, I've wasted 
long enough with this poor thing.  Some of these class D audio stuff 
runs at 500 khz, so as far as running a motor, can be made into dc 
amplifiers.  And I think I have an idea for a fast enough driver, 
involving a miller run-up and a sample-hold. Start a reset to zero 
miller circuit with the rising edge of the pwm, let it run up to 
whatever, sampling the charge on the falling edge of the pwm, hold that 
sample until the next pulse.  Or something like that should be fast 
enough. :)

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
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 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
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Re: [Emc-users] driver for a DC motor for a BS-1.

[Gene Heskett]

On Tuesday 27 October 2020 00:42:28 Thaddeus Waldner wrote:

> Hazarding a guess here so...
>
> It appears as if you are switching the direction signals at pwm
> frequency. This would switch the high side fets and those are slow and
> do have high switching losses. The intended design is for the low side
> fets (controlled by the PWM input) to be off until the switching is
> complete, and only then to resume current. Why did they choose those
> transistors for that application? Who knows.. maybe to eliminate the
> need for external bootstrap circuitry...

The direction signals aren't being switched or gated by the pwm. They are 
determined by the sign of the applied .value applied to the pwmgen. But 
there is zero both low or both high time, defined as braking.  So they 
are basicly a dc signal. They Only see heavy activity when the spindles 
Pgain is high enough its actually oscillating at the pwm frequency. And 
that applies only to the Pico pwm-servo I use for the spindle, not to 
this olimex board.  But since the motor isn't running, its moot that 
there is no feedback, so the current pid config is as a lowgain dc 
amplifier only. FF0=1, everything else is zeroed.  The board as a whole 
is acting as if the motor is shorted, but the motor runs normally if 
connected directly to the 24 volt 350 watt supply, at probably about an 
amp no load.

This 40 volt, 30 amp rated board has NEVER moved the motor, connected to 
that same supply it just does a thermal shutdown long before the on time 
of the pwm has reached 20%.

With the motor connected to the 150 watt class D audio amp, and powered 
by this same 24 volt supply, and the 150 watt amp driven by a 20 Hz sine 
wave from a function generator, it makes a great, will numb your hand in 
a minute or two, hand massager. I don't dare let go of it as it will 
dance right off the kitchen counter.

The 420 watt amp won't move it, and generates no heat sink temp rise, 
apparently it needs an AC supply to make a bipolar on-board DC.  I have 
some suitable toroids to power it with, took them out of the Sheldon kit 
when I switched the steppers out for 3 phase stepper-servo's. But no d 
to a to drive it with from LCNC.

> >>> But the switching losses in the olimex board, even at only
> >>> a 1 kilohertz pwm are killers, getting it hot enough to
> >>> burn a finger in just 2 or 3 seconds.

Thanks Thaddeus.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
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 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
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Re: [Emc-users] driver for a DC motor for a BS-1.

[Thaddeus Waldner]

Hazarding a guess here so...

It appears as if you are switching the direction signals at pwm frequency. This 
would switch the high side fets and those are slow and do have high switching 
losses. The intended design is for the low side fets (controlled by the PWM 
input) to be off until the switching is complete, and only then to resume 
current. Why did they choose those transistors for that application? Who 
knows.. maybe to eliminate the need for external bootstrap circuitry...



>>> But the switching losses in the olimex board, even at only
>>> a 1 kilohertz pwm are killers, getting it hot enough to
>>> burn a finger in just 2 or 3 seconds.


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Re: [Emc-users] driver for a DC motor for a BS-1.

[Gene Heskett]

On Monday 26 October 2020 22:33:36 Chris Albertson wrote:

> Gene, I've got a ton of these chips driving motors.  They work fine. 
> Just write the software to the datasheet spec.  If the chip is getting
> hot and the motor is not mechanically stalled then you are doing
> something wrong. For debug/development replace the motor with a 100R
> power resister and then you know 100% no more then 1/4 amp is flowing
> through it.

I don't think my junk box has such a critter. And the motor runs just 
fine when connected to the 24 volt supply.

>  Place a volt meter on the resister and watch the voltage 
> change with PWM duty cycle  Put an amp meter on the power supply.  A 
> motor not under load running at 50% PWM shouldn't use even one amp.  
> The chip will not be even warm
>
> One of the best investment you can make is a $10 logic analyzer.  The
> they can collect data on 8 pins at once.  Put on on every pin
>
> When I do a direction change I ALWAYS go through a "brake" mode on the
> way.

That is not possible withing hacking up something in hal which would soon 
run out of gpio. I am using the complimentary capability's of the 7i76 
to extract the dir- and dir+ signals, which change state simultaneously.
> I've never once seen a car with a 150 audio amp driving the 
> wind shield wipers.

But it could be done.

> The problem is you are trying to futz with both a new-to-you chip and
> LCC at the same time.

This is true.

> I keep an Arduino around for leaning how 
> controller chips work.  Arduino is a very simple and clean environment
> for experiments.   In fact there is an example program in the IDE for
> testing PWM controlled motor where you control the speed with a three
> terminal pot.
>
> On Mon, Oct 26, 2020 at 6:56 PM Gene Heskett  
wrote:
> > On Monday 26 October 2020 20:33:40 Jon Elson wrote:
> > > On 10/26/2020 06:48 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > > > But the switching losses in the olimex board, even at only
> > > > a 1 kilohertz pwm are killers, getting it hot enough to
> > > > burn a finger in just 2 or 3 seconds. So, I need a d2a to
> > > > drive one of the 150 watt class D audio boards after
> > > > shorting the inputs hi-pass filters caps. And I have the
> > > > feeling that even as sweet as the SpinX1 is for knocking
> > > > around a vfd, that it won't be fast enough for this, so
> > > > I'll need a real d2a that I can shove fresh data thru at
> > > > servo-thread speeds. Looking for likely suspects I might
> > > > be able to drive from the 7i76D sserial extension bus.
> > > > Suggestions?
> > >
> > > I'm guessing the thing was designed for 50 Hz PWM or
> > > thereabouts. That might actually be OK for a spindle motor.
> > > Clearly NOT OK for a positioning servo.
> >
> > Jon, Its a car seat positioner driver, claims very low milliohm on
> > r's. $13 on fleabay. Looks promising, but writes checks it can't
> > cover even with a 1 kilohertz pwm. Rated up to 10 kilohertz.  Either
> > that or the first one is fubared. I bought two, and its not hard to
> > change. I'll measure the rise and fall times being delivered to it
> > tomorrow too on the chance the Sainsmart bob is slow. Manual claims
> > up to 10 Mbits/S at any output.  For driving switches, thats
> > bordering on cook it slow. 10ns rise and fall would be a heck of a
> > lot better.  Designed for car seats, in cmos circuits, rated on time
> > delay is 100 to 300us, off time is 85 to 255us.
> >
> > And change of direction is 600 to 1800us. In polite language, that
> > explains it all. For starters, there is no measureable lag coming
> > out of the 7i76 for a direction reversal.  So with our drive, this
> > thing probably has 150us of shoot thru time for any dir signal
> > change.  I could probably design an interfacing circuit that would
> > fix that, but IMNSHO that is the semi designers job.  And STM
> > failed, miserably. Thats not a problem in this particular circuit,
> > but that geological rise and fall times for the pwm are a killer,
> > even at 1 kilohertz. At 50 hz, maybe.  At 10KHz, nearly instant
> > overtemp shut down at 170C.  Sigh...

These last two paragraphs are also true. If you are driving one of these 
with linuxcnc, show me some .hal code and schematics. I am always open 
to learning something that "gets around" the limitations the semi stuff 
imposes on us.

> > Thanks Jon.
> >
> > > ___
> > > Emc-users mailing list
> > > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> >
> > Cheers, Gene Heskett
> > --
> > "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
> >  soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
> > -Ed Howdershelt (Author)
> > If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law
> > respectable. - Louis D. Brandeis
> > Genes Web page 
> >
> >
> > ___
> > Emc-users mailing list
> > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> 

Re: [Emc-users] driver for a DC motor for a BS-1.

[Chris Albertson]

Gene, I've got a ton of these chips driving motors.  They work fine.  Just
write the software to the datasheet spec.  If the chip is getting hot and
the motor is not mechanically stalled then you are doing something wrong.
 For debug/development replace the motor with a 100R power resister and
then you know 100% no more then 1/4 amp is flowing through it.   Place a
volt meter on the resister and watch the voltage change with PWM duty
cycle  Put an amp meter on the power supply.  A  motor not under load
running at 50% PWM shouldn't use even one amp.   The chip will not be even
warm

One of the best investment you can make is a $10 logic analyzer.  The they
can collect data on 8 pins at once.  Put on on every pin

When I do a direction change I ALWAYS go through a "brake" mode on the
way.   I've never once seen a car with a 150 audio amp driving the wind
shield wipers.

The problem is you are trying to futz with both a new-to-you chip and LCC
at the same time.   I keep an Arduino around for leaning how controller
chips work.  Arduino is a very simple and clean environment for
experiments.   In fact there is an example program in the IDE for testing
PWM controlled motor where you control the speed with a three terminal
pot.

On Mon, Oct 26, 2020 at 6:56 PM Gene Heskett  wrote:

> On Monday 26 October 2020 20:33:40 Jon Elson wrote:
>
> > On 10/26/2020 06:48 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > > But the switching losses in the olimex board, even at only
> > > a 1 kilohertz pwm are killers, getting it hot enough to
> > > burn a finger in just 2 or 3 seconds. So, I need a d2a to
> > > drive one of the 150 watt class D audio boards after
> > > shorting the inputs hi-pass filters caps. And I have the
> > > feeling that even as sweet as the SpinX1 is for knocking
> > > around a vfd, that it won't be fast enough for this, so
> > > I'll need a real d2a that I can shove fresh data thru at
> > > servo-thread speeds. Looking for likely suspects I might
> > > be able to drive from the 7i76D sserial extension bus.
> > > Suggestions?
> >
> > I'm guessing the thing was designed for 50 Hz PWM or
> > thereabouts. That might actually be OK for a spindle motor.
> > Clearly NOT OK for a positioning servo.
> >
> Jon, Its a car seat positioner driver, claims very low milliohm on r's.
> $13 on fleabay. Looks promising, but write checks it can't cover even
> with a 1 kilohertz pwm. Rated up to 10 kilohertz.  Either that or the
> first one is fubared. I bought two, and its not hard to change. I'll
> measure the rise and fall times being delivered to it tomorrow too on
> the chance the Sainsmart bob is slow. Manual claims up to 10 Mbits/S at
> any output.  For driving switches, thats bordering on cook it slow. 10ns
> rise and fall would be a heck of a lot better.  Designed for car seats,
> in cmos circuits, rated on time delay is 100 to 300us, off time is 85 to
> 255us.
>
> And change of direction is 600 to 1800us. In polite language, that
> explains it all. For starters, there is no measureable lag coming out of
> the 7i76 for a direction reversal.  So with our drive, this thing
> probably has 150us of shoot thru time for any dir signal change.  I
> could probably design an interfacing circuit that would fix that, but
> IMNSHO that is the semi designers job.  And STM failed, miserably.
> Thats not a problem in this particular circuit, but that geological rise
> and fall times for the pwm are a killer, even at 1 kilohertz. At 50 hz,
> maybe.  At 10KHz, nearly instant overtemp shut down at 170C.  Sigh...
>
> Thanks Jon.
>
> >
> > ___
> > Emc-users mailing list
> > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>
>
> Cheers, Gene Heskett
> --
> "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
>  soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
> -Ed Howdershelt (Author)
> If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
>  - Louis D. Brandeis
> Genes Web page 
>
>
> ___
> Emc-users mailing list
> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>


-- 

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California

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Re: [Emc-users] driver for a DC motor for a BS-1.

[Gene Heskett]

On Monday 26 October 2020 20:33:40 Jon Elson wrote:

> On 10/26/2020 06:48 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > But the switching losses in the olimex board, even at only
> > a 1 kilohertz pwm are killers, getting it hot enough to
> > burn a finger in just 2 or 3 seconds. So, I need a d2a to
> > drive one of the 150 watt class D audio boards after
> > shorting the inputs hi-pass filters caps. And I have the
> > feeling that even as sweet as the SpinX1 is for knocking
> > around a vfd, that it won't be fast enough for this, so
> > I'll need a real d2a that I can shove fresh data thru at
> > servo-thread speeds. Looking for likely suspects I might
> > be able to drive from the 7i76D sserial extension bus.
> > Suggestions?
>
> I'm guessing the thing was designed for 50 Hz PWM or
> thereabouts. That might actually be OK for a spindle motor.
> Clearly NOT OK for a positioning servo.
>
Jon, Its a car seat positioner driver, claims very low milliohm on r's. 
$13 on fleabay. Looks promising, but write checks it can't cover even 
with a 1 kilohertz pwm. Rated up to 10 kilohertz.  Either that or the 
first one is fubared. I bought two, and its not hard to change. I'll 
measure the rise and fall times being delivered to it tomorrow too on 
the chance the Sainsmart bob is slow. Manual claims up to 10 Mbits/S at 
any output.  For driving switches, thats bordering on cook it slow. 10ns 
rise and fall would be a heck of a lot better.  Designed for car seats, 
in cmos circuits, rated on time delay is 100 to 300us, off time is 85 to 
255us.

And change of direction is 600 to 1800us. In polite language, that 
explains it all. For starters, there is no measureable lag coming out of 
the 7i76 for a direction reversal.  So with our drive, this thing 
probably has 150us of shoot thru time for any dir signal change.  I 
could probably design an interfacing circuit that would fix that, but 
IMNSHO that is the semi designers job.  And STM failed, miserably.
Thats not a problem in this particular circuit, but that geological rise 
and fall times for the pwm are a killer, even at 1 kilohertz. At 50 hz, 
maybe.  At 10KHz, nearly instant overtemp shut down at 170C.  Sigh...

Thanks Jon.

>
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Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
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Re: [Emc-users] driver for a DC motor for a BS-1.

[Jon Elson]

On 10/26/2020 06:48 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
But the switching losses in the olimex board, even at only 
a 1 kilohertz pwm are killers, getting it hot enough to 
burn a finger in just 2 or 3 seconds. So, I need a d2a to 
drive one of the 150 watt class D audio boards after 
shorting the inputs hi-pass filters caps. And I have the 
feeling that even as sweet as the SpinX1 is for knocking 
around a vfd, that it won't be fast enough for this, so 
I'll need a real d2a that I can shove fresh data thru at 
servo-thread speeds. Looking for likely suspects I might 
be able to drive from the 7i76D sserial extension bus. 
Suggestions?
I'm guessing the thing was designed for 50 Hz PWM or 
thereabouts. That might actually be OK for a spindle motor.  
Clearly NOT OK for a positioning servo.


Jon


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Re: [Emc-users] driver for a DC motor for a BS-1.

[Gene Heskett]

On Monday 26 October 2020 18:32:00 Jon Elson wrote:

> >> On Monday 26 October 2020 14:16:55 Chris Albertson wrote:
> >>> 20% PWM duty cycle and a 24V power supply is about  4.8 volts to
> >>> the motor.   Many DC motors will not move at 20% of rated volts.
> >>> I'd not be surprised if it took 10 or 12 volts to overcome
> >>> internal friction.
>
> A standard test for servo motors is to apply a single "D"
> cell.  The motor should turn VERY slowly, maybe 5-10 RPM,
> but move smoothly. If the movement is "lumpy" or it doesn't
> move at all, then it is a poor motor, or having a problem.
>
> Jon
>
In which case Jon, is having a huge problem, but I am now a wee bit 
schmardter after wiring that controller properly. My diagnosis is that 
its about 2 decades slower internally than one of your pwm-servo's. The 
switching losses when the pwm is about 2% on time are such that it over 
heats and shuts down in a couple seconds, AND it leaks enough voltage 
from the 5 volt supply used to run its internal logic that the motor 
supply never gets below 4.11 volts, which is not low enough to allow a 
reset.  I slowed it down to a kilohertz in the pwmgen, and that slowed 
the spindle loop response time badly enough that the wild swings from 
the pid_s.output were actually sending a reversal to your driver that 
was then slowing the spindle motor and I could hear the iron 
complaining. Dropping its Pgain from 20 to 3.5 stabilized that and got 
rid of the noisy iron singing..

But the switching losses in the olimex board, even at only a 1 kilohertz 
pwm are killers, getting it hot enough to burn a finger in just 2 or 3 
seconds.  So, I need a d2a to drive one of the 150 watt class D audio 
boards after shorting the inputs hi-pass filters caps.  And I have the 
feeling that even as sweet as the SpinX1 is for knocking around a vfd, 
that it won't be fast enough for this, so I'll need a real d2a that I 
can shove fresh data thru at servo-thread speeds. Looking for likely 
suspects I might be able to drive from the 7i76D sserial extension bus.

Suggestions?

Thanks Jon.
>
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Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
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 - Louis D. Brandeis
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Re: [Emc-users] driver for a DC motor for a BS-1.

[Jon Elson]

On Monday 26 October 2020 14:16:55 Chris Albertson wrote:

20% PWM duty cycle and a 24V power supply is about  4.8 volts to the
motor.   Many DC motors will not move at 20% of rated volts. I'd not
be surprised if it took 10 or 12 volts to overcome internal
friction.
A standard test for servo motors is to apply a single "D" 
cell.  The motor should turn VERY slowly, maybe 5-10 RPM, 
but move smoothly. If the movement is "lumpy" or it doesn't 
move at all, then it is a poor motor, or having a problem.


Jon


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Re: [Emc-users] driver for a DC motor for a BS-1.

[Gene Heskett]

On Monday 26 October 2020 14:56:37 Gene Heskett wrote:

> On Monday 26 October 2020 14:16:55 Chris Albertson wrote:
> > This is hard to follow because you are referring to pin number on a
> > PCB with no schematic.   How do these relate to the pins on the
> > driver chip?
>
> Ahh, but the schematic is downloadable from the olimex site. Printed
> in color on glossy photo paper its an excellent drawing. Get it from
> 
>
> > Also, 10 KHz is at the limit.  For initial testing better, I think
> > to work near the midpoint of the acceptable range, perhaps 1KHz. 
> > Then after it works sneak up on the max.
> >
> > 20% PWM duty cycle and a 24V power supply is about  4.8 volts to the
> > motor.   Many DC motors will not move at 20% of rated volts. I'd not
> > be surprised if it took 10 or 12 volts to overcome internal
> > friction. Motion control is always the hardest to make work at the
> > slow speed end. The motors all take a high voltage to "break free"
> > and then run too fast so you have to slow them below the break free
> > voltage so make them run slow.   This is why we have PID and
> > encoders and why PID tuning is hard.
>
> Agreed.  Unforch I can't run the mesa pwmgens at different speeds, and
> the other one is running the spindle. But I'll try a kilohertz just
> for S&G.
>
> > A trick is to use a power supply that is a bunch higher than the
> > motor's rated voltage and let the control logic do whatever it takes
> > to drive the motor to its set-point.
>
> But this driver only has a 40 volt 30 amp limit.  I do have higher
> voltage sapplies that would foldback at the currants involved.
>
> > All brushed motors have brushes and hence friction.   You can use
> > BLDC but they cost more.(note that a stepper is a type of BLDC.
> >
> > What will make this work is that I doubt an index table needs to
> > spin fast in both directions and start and stop with high
> > accelerations. Set the speed and acceleration limits in LCNC
> > way-slow.
>
> Thats assumed since this motor is a worm drive, 220 rpms at 24 volts.
> And it will be driving the worm in a BS-1.  But first it needs to move
> laying on the mills table. I'll sneak up on the pid's Pgain.  And it
> didn't trip from following error as I've set that way up until I get
> the encoder hooked up. Which has not been done just yet.
>
> > On Mon, Oct 26, 2020 at 10:48 AM Gene Heskett 
>
> wrote:
> > > On Sunday 18 October 2020 22:21:11 Chris Albertson wrote:
> > >
> > > Advice on the OLIMEX board for a motor driver.
> > >
> > > I have it wired up, I think.  Grounded to system ground on pin 3,
> > > system logic 5 volts on pin 2.
> > >
> > > With complementary 5 volt dirs feeding ENA/ENB on pins 4-5 and a 5
> > > volt pwm on pin 6, the motor on its terminals and a 24 volt psu on
> > > its set of terminals, pins 1-7-8 aren't connected. It will bring
> > > up the leds according to the dir sigs, modulated by the % of pwm.
> > > The motor is not moving at up to about a 20% pwm at 10 kilohertz,
> > > and above 20%, it disables the outputs until a powerdown is done.
> > > I'm switching all the motor power off with the f2 key, so 15-20
> > > seconds off to let all the switchers bleed off seems to reset it
> > > ok. Pins 7-8 are sitting just a few millivolts above ground which
> > > looks duff to me since they have 3.3k on-board pullups to the 5
> > > volt line.  But thats how it powers up.
>
> No comment?

Not needed, I just uncovered a printout of the pdf, which clearly states 
the two diag pins must be pulled high. See the top of page 7. So that is 
mistake #1.  There are likely more. The .hal file is 17 landscape pages 
long, 100% out of my ancient wet ram, and I have famously fat fingers. 

> > > It does warm up when the output direction leds are lit, but
> > > nowhere near too hot. So I'd assume some current is flowing, just
> > > not enough to move the motor.
> > >
> > > Obviously I'm doing something wrong, but what?. Do I need +5 volts
> > > fed to pins 7-8?
> > >
> > > I am NOT impressed with the pushbutton terminals OLIMEX uses, they
> > > do not grab a wire heavy enough to carry the expected 10+ amps of
> > > currant to keep a good connection if the wire moves.  And its
> > > damned sure NOT a long term gas tight joint. I may yet pull them
> > > out and replace them with the green screw terminal plugs. 
> > > Something I can put some serious torque on.
> > >
> > > The 150 watt audio class D can make quite an effective hand
> > > massager out of this motor at 20 hz, its dc powered and doesn't
> > > get warm doing it. The 430 watters need an AC supply, and don't
> > > work at all with DC from this supply fed to its FW bridge power
> > > input, so apparently it needs a balanced + and - supply. Either
> > > would need a d/a to feed a bypass the input hf pass filter that
> > > wants to protect the speakers. But other than a spinx1 that would
> > > be too slow, I don't have a D/A to drive them with. But its a
> > > thought and the 150 

Re: [Emc-users] driver for a DC motor for a BS-1.

[Gene Heskett]

On Monday 26 October 2020 14:16:55 Chris Albertson wrote:

> This is hard to follow because you are referring to pin number on a
> PCB with no schematic.   How do these relate to the pins on the driver
> chip?

Ahh, but the schematic is downloadable from the olimex site. Printed in 
color on glossy photo paper its an excellent drawing. Get it from 


> Also, 10 KHz is at the limit.  For initial testing better, I think to
> work near the midpoint of the acceptable range, perhaps 1KHz.  Then
> after it works sneak up on the max.
>
> 20% PWM duty cycle and a 24V power supply is about  4.8 volts to the
> motor.   Many DC motors will not move at 20% of rated volts. I'd not
> be surprised if it took 10 or 12 volts to overcome internal friction.
> Motion control is always the hardest to make work at the slow speed
> end. The motors all take a high voltage to "break free" and then run
> too fast so you have to slow them below the break free voltage so make
> them run slow.   This is why we have PID and encoders and why PID
> tuning is hard.

Agreed.  Unforch I can't run the mesa pwmgens at different speeds, and 
the other one is running the spindle. But I'll try a kilohertz just for 
S&G.

> A trick is to use a power supply that is a bunch higher than the
> motor's rated voltage and let the control logic do whatever it takes
> to drive the motor to its set-point.

But this driver only has a 40 volt 30 amp limit.  I do have higher 
voltage sapplies that would foldback at the currants involved.

> All brushed motors have brushes and hence friction.   You can use BLDC
> but they cost more.(note that a stepper is a type of BLDC.
>
> What will make this work is that I doubt an index table needs to spin
> fast in both directions and start and stop with high accelerations. 
> Set the speed and acceleration limits in LCNC way-slow.

Thats assumed since this motor is a worm drive, 220 rpms at 24 volts. And 
it will be driving the worm in a BS-1.  But first it needs to move 
laying on the mills table. I'll sneak up on the pid's Pgain.  And it 
didn't trip from following error as I've set that way up until I get the 
encoder hooked up. Which has not been done just yet.
>
> On Mon, Oct 26, 2020 at 10:48 AM Gene Heskett  
wrote:
> > On Sunday 18 October 2020 22:21:11 Chris Albertson wrote:
> >
> > Advice on the OLIMEX board for a motor driver.
> >
> > I have it wired up, I think.  Grounded to system ground on pin 3,
> > system logic 5 volts on pin 2.
> >
> > With complementary 5 volt dirs feeding ENA/ENB on pins 4-5 and a 5
> > volt pwm on pin 6, the motor on its terminals and a 24 volt psu on
> > its set of terminals, pins 1-7-8 aren't connected. It will bring up
> > the leds according to the dir sigs, modulated by the % of pwm. The
> > motor is not moving at up to about a 20% pwm at 10 kilohertz, and
> > above 20%, it disables the outputs until a powerdown is done. I'm
> > switching all the motor power off with the f2 key, so 15-20 seconds
> > off to let all the switchers bleed off seems to reset it ok. Pins
> > 7-8 are sitting just a few millivolts above ground which looks duff
> > to me since they have 3.3k on-board pullups to the 5 volt line.  But
> > thats how it powers up.
> >
No comment?

> > It does warm up when the output direction leds are lit, but nowhere
> > near too hot. So I'd assume some current is flowing, just not enough
> > to move the motor.
> >
> > Obviously I'm doing something wrong, but what?. Do I need +5 volts
> > fed to pins 7-8?
> >
> > I am NOT impressed with the pushbutton terminals OLIMEX uses, they
> > do not grab a wire heavy enough to carry the expected 10+ amps of
> > currant to keep a good connection if the wire moves.  And its damned
> > sure NOT a long term gas tight joint. I may yet pull them out and
> > replace them with the green screw terminal plugs.  Something I can
> > put some serious torque on.
> >
> > The 150 watt audio class D can make quite an effective hand massager
> > out of this motor at 20 hz, its dc powered and doesn't get warm
> > doing it. The 430 watters need an AC supply, and don't work at all
> > with DC from this supply fed to its FW bridge power input, so
> > apparently it needs a balanced + and - supply. Either would need a
> > d/a to feed a bypass the input hf pass filter that wants to protect
> > the speakers. But other than a spinx1 that would be too slow, I
> > don't have a D/A to drive them with. But its a thought and the 150
> > watter can seriously hammer that motor. So thats a potential what
> > if.  :)

Thanks Chris.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
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 - Louis D. Brandeis
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Re: [Emc-users] driver for a DC motor for a BS-1.

[Chris Albertson]

This is hard to follow because you are referring to pin number on a PCB
with no schematic.   How do these relate to the pins on the driver chip?

Also, 10 KHz is at the limit.  For initial testing better, I think to work
near the midpoint of the acceptable range, perhaps 1KHz.  Then after it
works sneak up on the max.

20% PWM duty cycle and a 24V power supply is about  4.8 volts to the
motor.   Many DC motors will not move at 20% of rated volts. I'd not be
surprised if it took 10 or 12 volts to overcome internal friction.
 Motion control is always the hardest to make work at the slow speed end.
 The motors all take a high voltage to "break free" and then run too fast
so you have to slow them below the break free voltage so make them run
slow.   This is why we have PID and encoders and why PID tuning is hard.

A trick is to use a power supply that is a bunch higher than the motor's
rated voltage and let the control logic do whatever it takes to drive the
motor to its set-point.

All brushed motors have brushes and hence friction.   You can use BLDC but
they cost more.(note that a stepper is a type of BLDC.

What will make this work is that I doubt an index table needs to spin fast
in both directions and start and stop with high accelerations.  Set the
speed and acceleration limits in LCNC way-slow.

On Mon, Oct 26, 2020 at 10:48 AM Gene Heskett  wrote:

> On Sunday 18 October 2020 22:21:11 Chris Albertson wrote:
>
> Advice on the OLIMEX board for a motor driver.
>
> I have it wired up, I think.  Grounded to system ground on pin 3, system
> logic 5 volts on pin 2.
>
> With complementary 5 volt dirs feeding ENA/ENB on pins 4-5 and a 5 volt
> pwm on pin 6, the motor on its terminals and a 24 volt psu on its set of
> terminals, pins 1-7-8 aren't connected. It will bring up the leds
> according to the dir sigs, modulated by the % of pwm. The motor is not
> moving at up to about a 20% pwm at 10 kilohertz, and above 20%, it
> disables the outputs until a powerdown is done. I'm switching all the
> motor power off with the f2 key, so 15-20 seconds off to let all the
> switchers bleed off seems to reset it ok. Pins 7-8 are sitting just a
> few millivolts above ground which looks duff to me since they have 3.3k
> on-board pullups to the 5 volt line.  But thats how it powers up.
>
> It does warm up when the output direction leds are lit, but nowhere near
> too hot. So I'd assume some current is flowing, just not enough to move
> the motor.
>
> Obviously I'm doing something wrong, but what?. Do I need +5 volts fed to
> pins 7-8?
>
> I am NOT impressed with the pushbutton terminals OLIMEX uses, they do not
> grab a wire heavy enough to carry the expected 10+ amps of currant to
> keep a good connection if the wire moves.  And its damned sure NOT a
> long term gas tight joint. I may yet pull them out and replace them with
> the green screw terminal plugs.  Something I can put some serious torque
> on.
>
> The 150 watt audio class D can make quite an effective hand massager out
> of this motor at 20 hz, its dc powered and doesn't get warm doing it.
> The 430 watters need an AC supply, and don't work at all with DC from
> this supply fed to its FW bridge power input, so apparently it needs a
> balanced + and - supply. Either would need a d/a to feed a bypass the
> input hf pass filter that wants to protect the speakers. But other than
> a spinx1 that would be too slow, I don't have a D/A to drive them with.
> But its a thought and the 150 watter can seriously hammer that motor.
> So thats a potential what if.  :)
>
> Thanks Chris.
>
> Cheers, Gene Heskett
> --
> "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
>  soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
> -Ed Howdershelt (Author)
> If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
>  - Louis D. Brandeis
> Genes Web page 
>
>
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>


-- 

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California

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Re: [Emc-users] driver for a DC motor for a BS-1.

[Gene Heskett]

On Sunday 18 October 2020 22:21:11 Chris Albertson wrote:

Advice on the OLIMEX board for a motor driver.

I have it wired up, I think.  Grounded to system ground on pin 3, system 
logic 5 volts on pin 2.

With complementary 5 volt dirs feeding ENA/ENB on pins 4-5 and a 5 volt 
pwm on pin 6, the motor on its terminals and a 24 volt psu on its set of 
terminals, pins 1-7-8 aren't connected. It will bring up the leds 
according to the dir sigs, modulated by the % of pwm. The motor is not 
moving at up to about a 20% pwm at 10 kilohertz, and above 20%, it 
disables the outputs until a powerdown is done. I'm switching all the 
motor power off with the f2 key, so 15-20 seconds off to let all the 
switchers bleed off seems to reset it ok. Pins 7-8 are sitting just a 
few millivolts above ground which looks duff to me since they have 3.3k 
on-board pullups to the 5 volt line.  But thats how it powers up.

It does warm up when the output direction leds are lit, but nowhere near 
too hot. So I'd assume some current is flowing, just not enough to move 
the motor.

Obviously I'm doing something wrong, but what?. Do I need +5 volts fed to 
pins 7-8?

I am NOT impressed with the pushbutton terminals OLIMEX uses, they do not 
grab a wire heavy enough to carry the expected 10+ amps of currant to 
keep a good connection if the wire moves.  And its damned sure NOT a 
long term gas tight joint. I may yet pull them out and replace them with 
the green screw terminal plugs.  Something I can put some serious torque 
on.

The 150 watt audio class D can make quite an effective hand massager out 
of this motor at 20 hz, its dc powered and doesn't get warm doing it.  
The 430 watters need an AC supply, and don't work at all with DC from 
this supply fed to its FW bridge power input, so apparently it needs a 
balanced + and - supply. Either would need a d/a to feed a bypass the 
input hf pass filter that wants to protect the speakers. But other than 
a spinx1 that would be too slow, I don't have a D/A to drive them with. 
But its a thought and the 150 watter can seriously hammer that motor.  
So thats a potential what if.  :)

Thanks Chris.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-users] driver for a DC motor for a BS-1.

[Gene Heskett]

On Wednesday 21 October 2020 18:54:59 John Dammeyer wrote:

> Hopefully the attached photo makes it through.  Here's the MC60
> running the 1.5HP 100VDC brushed CW rotation treadmill duty motor.
>
> Measuring the pot wiper without the flywheel fan weight it starts to
> turn at about 0.8V and can be slowed down to about 0.55V before it
> stops.
>
> With the pot all the way over and 12V on the wiper it's spinning fast.
>  I'd guess 2500 to 3000 RPM.
>
> Now with the flywheel it doesn't have the torque to start until about
> 1.1V is applied.  At that point it can be rolled back to about 0.8V
> where it turns slowly but very little torque.
>
> Back when I had a Sherline to play with we found similar issues with
> the DC spindle motor.  Having a 2:1 reduction made it possible to
> thread at lower speeds and still have reasonable torque.
>
> Since the motor is marked CW I don't know how well the brushes or
> commutator would stand up to CCW rotation.  It could also be rated
> that way because the flywheel/fan is screwed on with a left hand
> thread.  So turning in the other direction could cause the flywheel to
> escape.  Kind  of like the face plate or chuck on my South bend if run
> in reverse.

I drilled lengthwise between the fan and shaft an inserted some set 
screws.  Held for about a year before it crushed the screws and screwed 
the shaft up. I did essentially the same with a slightly different 
motor, and added a limit3 so slow the speed ramping, and I've had no 
similar problems in several years now.  Jon's pwm-servo amp needs to be 
gentled just to save drive parts on TLM. I'd estimate top motor speeds 
are around 8 grand.  3/1 belt geardown between the motor and the 
countershaft thats driving the timing belt pulley that drives the 2 
speed spindle.  With ball screws, a 5" chuck, no compound and tapered 
gibs, a good qctp, its a wholly useable machine now.  Its about 25 yo 
now.  My first machine long before I discovered linuxcnc.

> Back when I removed the flywheel the first time I had to use pliers to
> grab onto the back end of the shaft as it's a bit marked up.  I think
> If I wanted to put an encoder on this motor I'd have to pull the
> armature and turn that stub down to something that would fit into the
> extra US Digital encoders I now have lying around.  Wouldn't take much
> to then use one of my spare HP_UHU drives, GECKOs or STMBLs to test
> how well this motor really works in closed loop.  It's been sitting
> around for probably 15 years now.  Eventually I'll get around to it.
>
> So kudos to the MC60 controller.  It does the job as an open loop
> controller.  But at low speeds it's lacking in torque.  I think there
> might be some back emf sensing because at low speeds grabbing onto the
> shaft creates a louder hum from the motor.  Not sure if that's because
> it's trying to make it stay at the set speed or if slowing it down
> causes the windings to draw current for a longer time as each tab on
> the commutator is under the brush for a longer time.
>
> John Dammeyer
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Gregg Eshelman via Emc-users
> > [mailto:emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net] Sent: October-18-20 9:40 PM
> > To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> > Cc: Gregg Eshelman
> > Subject: Re: [Emc-users] driver for a DC motor for a BS-1.
> >
> > What many people use for those high voltage DC treadmill motors is a
> > MC2100 controller. Those are used in the fancier treadmills that
> > have buttons to tick the speed up and down.There are many schematics
> > and other info on how to build a potentiometer controlled PWM
> > circuit for these or an interface to CNC for speed control.
> >
> > Cheaper ones with a rotary knob or a slide control most often have
> > an MC60 controller. These may or may not work as a spindle driver,
> > depending on how the circuitry is setup. Control is as simple as
> > properly connecting a potentiometer. One I tried was setup to not
> > start the motor until the knob was up to 50%, where it'd slam on at
> > 50% speed. Then if it was slowed down too quickly it'd shut down
> > until it was power cycled. I sold it for a decent price, presumably
> > to someone needing it for a treadmill, because in the listing I
> > detailed all the reasons it *was not* useful for a machine spindle
> > control.
> >
> > The MC60 is an SCR controller and it makes the motor quite noisy and
> > torque suffers at lower RPM.
> >
> > On Sunday, October 18, 2020, 12:42:32 PM MDT, John Dammeyer
> >  wrote:
> >
> >  Way back in 2003 I started a project to control the su

Re: [Emc-users] driver for a DC motor for a BS-1.

[Thaddeus Waldner]

Bar the tiny, cheap toy drones, they all use brushless motors because brushes 
waste about 10% of input energy. 

> On Oct 20, 2020, at 6:53 PM, John Dammeyer  wrote:
> 
> Those are the types used for robots or drones?


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Re: [Emc-users] driver for a DC motor for a BS-1.

[John Dammeyer]

> From: Gregg Eshelman via Emc-users [mailto:emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net]
> 
> KB makes SCR and PWM motor drives, but rather than spend the $$ for a KB PWM 
> I'm leaning towards an MC2100 treadmill drive
> for my JET 9x20 I put a DC treadmill motor on. Just have to build a PWM 
> control circuit to replace whatever would be on the
> treadmill control panel.
> The old MC60 treadmill SCR control may or may not be useful for a spindle 
> drive, depending on how it's been set up for when it
> will turn on and how it handles fast speed changes and getting close to a 
> stall. If it starts up as soon as the control rheostat is
> moved and doesn't quit if slowed down too fast, it'll work but the low RPM 
> torque is low. The MC60 that was on the mill my motor
> is from wouldn't start until the knob was turned to 50%, and it'd start *at* 
> 50% speed. Then if I turned it down too fast it'd shut
> down until it was power cycled and the knob put back to zero. Useless for a 
> lathe spindle, without the knowledge to modify the
> circuitry or adjust the trimpots that may control those behaviors.
> 

Probably why I didn't do much with my MC60 controller.  It's so long ago I 
don't remember it's behaviour.  Somehow though your description sounds very 
familiar.

John Dammeyer




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Re: [Emc-users] driver for a DC motor for a BS-1.

[Gregg Eshelman via Emc-users]

KB makes SCR and PWM motor drives, but rather than spend the $$ for a KB PWM 
I'm leaning towards an MC2100 treadmill drive for my JET 9x20 I put a DC 
treadmill motor on. Just have to build a PWM control circuit to replace 
whatever would be on the treadmill control panel. 
The old MC60 treadmill SCR control may or may not be useful for a spindle 
drive, depending on how it's been set up for when it will turn on and how it 
handles fast speed changes and getting close to a stall. If it starts up as 
soon as the control rheostat is moved and doesn't quit if slowed down too fast, 
it'll work but the low RPM torque is low. The MC60 that was on the mill my 
motor is from wouldn't start until the knob was turned to 50%, and it'd start 
*at* 50% speed. Then if I turned it down too fast it'd shut down until it was 
power cycled and the knob put back to zero. Useless for a lathe spindle, 
without the knowledge to modify the circuitry or adjust the trimpots that may 
control those behaviors.

On Tuesday, October 20, 2020, 10:03:30 PM MDT, Scott Harwell via Emc-users 
 wrote:  
  The KB drives are solid. They have been around for many years and work well. 
The last one I used was for an index motor on a large lathe and it ran for 
years no problems. I don't think it is fast enough for a servo.
Scott H  
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Re: [Emc-users] driver for a DC motor for a BS-1.

[Gene Heskett]

On Wednesday 21 October 2020 00:00:07 Scott Harwell via Emc-users wrote:

>  The KB drives are solid. They have been around for many years and
> work well. The last one I used was for an index motor on a large lathe
> and it ran for years no problems. I don't think it is fast enough for
> a servo. Scott H
>
And the one in my x1 micromill is not scr based, its a switched mode 
power FET version, and its for sure fast enough to run a servo. 
Controlled from linuxcnc by a pmdx-106 interface, its up to full speed 
of 2500 revs in under 50 millisecs from dead stopped. Either direction.

The reason I know is that I blew the FET, and replaced it with one from a 
duff pc power supply.  That was 6 or 8 years ago and its still working.

I am among other things, a C.E.T., so replacing the blown FET was not a 
problem for me.

>
> On Tuesday, October 20, 2020, 7:00:00 PM CDT, Dave Cole
>  wrote:
>
>
> I didn't think that we were talking about positioning.
> I thought you were talking about a spindle drive.
> I think it could be used as a low performance positioning drive.
> You would need an opto coupler setup for the command obviously if
> there is no isolation.
> I'm not sure that the newer KB drives aren't isolated.
> But I would probably pursue a real servo drive/motor if you want
> anything with performance.
> In the past few years I have implemented AC VFDs on some machines to
> do positioning.
> They use a relatively high ratio gearbox.   They are usually in vector
> mode.  Those setups can last a very long time.  But they aren't super
> precise, but then they don't need to be.
> A couple of the machines used shot pins to get precise final position.
>
> Dave
>
> On 10/20/2020 5:30 PM, John Dammeyer wrote:
> >> From: Jon Elson [mailto:el...@pico-systems.com]
> >>
> >> On 10/20/2020 03:19 PM, John Dammeyer wrote:
> >>> I looked at their web site.  (google KB Electronic DC drive). 
> >>> Seems like pretty nice stuff although I wonder if they would react
> >>> fast
> >>
> >> enough to a closed loop control.  If that was even wanted.  One of
> >> the drives does support tachometer feedback. The KB drives are SCR
> >> based, so pretty low bandwidth.
> >>
> >> Jon
> >
> > So perfect for treadmills or fans or conveyers or any sort of simple
> > speed control with a knob.  But not ideal for CNC based systems.
> >
> > John
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ___
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Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
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Re: [Emc-users] driver for a DC motor for a BS-1.

[Scott Harwell via Emc-users]

 The KB drives are solid. They have been around for many years and work well. 
The last one I used was for an index motor on a large lathe and it ran for 
years no problems. I don't think it is fast enough for a servo.
Scott H


On Tuesday, October 20, 2020, 7:00:00 PM CDT, Dave Cole 
 wrote:  
 
 
I didn't think that we were talking about positioning.
I thought you were talking about a spindle drive.
I think it could be used as a low performance positioning drive.
You would need an opto coupler setup for the command obviously if there 
is no isolation.
I'm not sure that the newer KB drives aren't isolated.
But I would probably pursue a real servo drive/motor if you want 
anything with performance.
In the past few years I have implemented AC VFDs on some machines to do 
positioning.
They use a relatively high ratio gearbox.   They are usually in vector 
mode.  Those setups can last a very long time.  But they aren't super 
precise, but then they don't need to be.
A couple of the machines used shot pins to get precise final position.

Dave

On 10/20/2020 5:30 PM, John Dammeyer wrote:
>
>> From: Jon Elson [mailto:el...@pico-systems.com]
>> On 10/20/2020 03:19 PM, John Dammeyer wrote:
>>> I looked at their web site.  (google KB Electronic DC drive).  Seems like 
>>> pretty nice stuff although I wonder if they would react fast
>> enough to a closed loop control.  If that was even wanted.  One of the 
>> drives does support tachometer feedback.
>> The KB drives are SCR based, so pretty low bandwidth.
>>
>> Jon
> So perfect for treadmills or fans or conveyers or any sort of simple speed 
> control with a knob.  But not ideal for CNC based systems.
>
> John
>
>
>
>
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Re: [Emc-users] driver for a DC motor for a BS-1.

[John Dammeyer]

> > This is the replacement AC Servo.  110SM-M0630MAL with companion
> > drive.  1.8KW, 3000 RPM, 6Nm rated torque, 18Nm peak torque, Peak
> > Current 18A and 2500 line encoder.  Runs very quietly.
> > http://www.autoartisans.com/mill/NewPulleys-1.jpg
> >

Just in case anyone is interested I grabbed a shot with the macro lens still on 
the camera (lousy depth of field) and it's not the best picture.  If someone 
wants I'll set up one with better lighting and depth of field that extends over 
the entire board.

Anyway.  The Bergerda drive I use for the spindle can take in 0-10V or 
step/dir.  Since the MESA can't flip PWM and STEP/DIR on the same pins without 
reprogramming, for now I use the PWM so I can still run the spindle under MACH3 
or LinuxCNC.

I used a small far east PWM to 10V module but I needed a carrier board that 
brought the system enable out to the Bergerda along with step/dir and fault for 
the DB25 connector on the drive.

The 0-10V goes to a separate connector on the side of the drive.
Here's the photo.
http://www.autoartisans.com/mill/SpindleControl/ServoPWMInterface.jpg

And the schematic.
http://www.autoartisans.com/mill/SpindleControl/PWMSpindle.pdf

And the layout.
http://www.autoartisans.com/mill/SpindleControl/PWMSpindlePCB.pdf

The DB-25 matches the Bergerda which is configured for either 0-10V or for 
Step/Dir.

One of the annoying things about the drive is that the DIR is different if it's 
0-10V compared to the step pulses.  The optos are high speed and that is then 
converted to differential.

The notes on the top left corner describe the connector pins and the Parameter 
Numbers.  These are the memory locations inside the drive that are set for 
operation.  So PN4 sets the type of control of the motor.

If anyone decides to buy one of these drives I had 4 PCBs made.  

John Dammeyer

 



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Re: [Emc-users] driver for a DC motor for a BS-1.

[Dave Cole]

I didn't think that we were talking about positioning.
I thought you were talking about a spindle drive.
I think it could be used as a low performance positioning drive.
You would need an opto coupler setup for the command obviously if there 
is no isolation.

I'm not sure that the newer KB drives aren't isolated.
But I would probably pursue a real servo drive/motor if you want 
anything with performance.
In the past few years I have implemented AC VFDs on some machines to do 
positioning.
They use a relatively high ratio gearbox.   They are usually in vector 
mode.  Those setups can last a very long time.  But they aren't super 
precise, but then they don't need to be.

A couple of the machines used shot pins to get precise final position.

Dave

On 10/20/2020 5:30 PM, John Dammeyer wrote:



From: Jon Elson [mailto:el...@pico-systems.com]
On 10/20/2020 03:19 PM, John Dammeyer wrote:

I looked at their web site.  (google KB Electronic DC drive).  Seems like 
pretty nice stuff although I wonder if they would react fast

enough to a closed loop control.  If that was even wanted.  One of the drives 
does support tachometer feedback.
The KB drives are SCR based, so pretty low bandwidth.

Jon

So perfect for treadmills or fans or conveyers or any sort of simple speed 
control with a knob.  But not ideal for CNC based systems.

John




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Re: [Emc-users] driver for a DC motor for a BS-1.

[John Dammeyer]

Those are the types used for robots or drones?

> -Original Message-
> From: linux...@rodes.biz [mailto:linux...@rodes.biz]
> Sent: October-20-20 4:46 PM
> To: 'Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)'
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] driver for a DC motor for a BS-1.
> 
> Try one of these DC drives.
> Work pretty well.  I have 3 on my Bridgeport Series II
> 
> https://www.cytron.io/p-20amp-6v-30v-dc-motor-driver
> 
> and Amazon has 'em.
> 
> N.
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Gene Heskett 
> Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 2020 2:33 PM
> To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] driver for a DC motor for a BS-1.
> 
> On Tuesday 20 October 2020 16:04:16 Dave Cole wrote:
> 
> > What about using a common KB Electronics DC drive?
> > Woot.com (Amazon discount site) is selling one for $89.  I think they
> > can commonly be found on Ebay as well.
> >
> > Dave
> 
> I haven't got $99 in the 5, 3 different types I'm playing with.
> Technology does move on and this stuff just keeps getting cheaper.
> 
> The mesa spinx1 to interface the audio boards costs more than any one of 
> these. But at the expense of 2 more output pins, the
> olimex board can run a 40 volt, 30 amp motor.  Thats a 1.2 kw servo.  Even 
> for this job, serious overkill.
> 
> > On 10/19/2020 5:22 PM, grumpy--- via Emc-users wrote:
> > > On Sun, 18 Oct 2020, John Dammeyer wrote:
> > >> Way back in 2003 I started a project to control the surplus tread
> > >> mill motors I had acquired.  At that time I was still just casting
> > >> parts for making my Gingery Lathe and thought about making my own
> > >> DC Servo motor controller.
> > >>
> > >> http://www.autoartisans.com/MotorDrives/MOTOR1-5.JPG
> > >>
> > >> The first prototype had a bunch of problems and then regular paying
> > >> work took over, I needed the bench space and never revived the
> > >> project. http://www.autoartisans.com/MotorDrives/REVA0059.JPG
> > >>
> > >> The controller was the MC33030
> > >>
> > >> http://www.autoartisans.com/MotorDrives/MC33030-D.pdf
> > >>
> > >> Knowing what I know now I'd never use this device but back then...
> > >
> > > i have a 1 hp treadmill motor i need a controller for in view of you
> > > past experience what would you use now
> 
> Using a treadmill controller is, IMO, a great way to shoot yourself in the 
> foot, or worse. Think outside that box, far better stuff at
> lower cost is available today.
> > >
> > > ___
> > > Emc-users mailing list
> > > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> >
> > ___
> > Emc-users mailing list
> > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> 
> 
> Cheers, Gene Heskett
> --
> "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
>  soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
> -Ed Howdershelt (Author)
> If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
>  - Louis D. Brandeis
> Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>
> 
> 
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> 
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] driver for a DC motor for a BS-1.

[linuxcnc]

Try one of these DC drives.
Work pretty well.  I have 3 on my Bridgeport Series II

https://www.cytron.io/p-20amp-6v-30v-dc-motor-driver

and Amazon has 'em.

N.

-Original Message-
From: Gene Heskett  
Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 2020 2:33 PM
To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] driver for a DC motor for a BS-1.

On Tuesday 20 October 2020 16:04:16 Dave Cole wrote:

> What about using a common KB Electronics DC drive?
> Woot.com (Amazon discount site) is selling one for $89.  I think they 
> can commonly be found on Ebay as well.
>
> Dave

I haven't got $99 in the 5, 3 different types I'm playing with.  
Technology does move on and this stuff just keeps getting cheaper.

The mesa spinx1 to interface the audio boards costs more than any one of these. 
But at the expense of 2 more output pins, the olimex board can run a 40 volt, 
30 amp motor.  Thats a 1.2 kw servo.  Even for this job, serious overkill.

> On 10/19/2020 5:22 PM, grumpy--- via Emc-users wrote:
> > On Sun, 18 Oct 2020, John Dammeyer wrote:
> >> Way back in 2003 I started a project to control the surplus tread 
> >> mill motors I had acquired.  At that time I was still just casting 
> >> parts for making my Gingery Lathe and thought about making my own 
> >> DC Servo motor controller.
> >>
> >> http://www.autoartisans.com/MotorDrives/MOTOR1-5.JPG
> >>
> >> The first prototype had a bunch of problems and then regular paying 
> >> work took over, I needed the bench space and never revived the 
> >> project. http://www.autoartisans.com/MotorDrives/REVA0059.JPG
> >>
> >> The controller was the MC33030
> >>
> >> http://www.autoartisans.com/MotorDrives/MC33030-D.pdf
> >>
> >> Knowing what I know now I'd never use this device but back then...
> >
> > i have a 1 hp treadmill motor i need a controller for in view of you 
> > past experience what would you use now

Using a treadmill controller is, IMO, a great way to shoot yourself in the 
foot, or worse. Think outside that box, far better stuff at lower cost is 
available today.
> >
> > ___
> > Emc-users mailing list
> > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>
> ___
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Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>


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Re: [Emc-users] driver for a DC motor for a BS-1.

[Gene Heskett]

On Tuesday 20 October 2020 16:04:16 Dave Cole wrote:

> What about using a common KB Electronics DC drive?
> Woot.com (Amazon discount site) is selling one for $89.  I think they
> can commonly be found on Ebay as well.
>
> Dave

I haven't got $99 in the 5, 3 different types I'm playing with.  
Technology does move on and this stuff just keeps getting cheaper.

The mesa spinx1 to interface the audio boards costs more than any one of 
these. But at the expense of 2 more output pins, the olimex board can 
run a 40 volt, 30 amp motor.  Thats a 1.2 kw servo.  Even for this job, 
serious overkill.

> On 10/19/2020 5:22 PM, grumpy--- via Emc-users wrote:
> > On Sun, 18 Oct 2020, John Dammeyer wrote:
> >> Way back in 2003 I started a project to control the surplus tread
> >> mill motors I had acquired.  At that time I was still just casting
> >> parts for making my Gingery Lathe and thought about making my own
> >> DC Servo motor controller.
> >>
> >> http://www.autoartisans.com/MotorDrives/MOTOR1-5.JPG
> >>
> >> The first prototype had a bunch of problems and then regular paying
> >> work took over, I needed the bench space and never revived the
> >> project. http://www.autoartisans.com/MotorDrives/REVA0059.JPG
> >>
> >> The controller was the MC33030
> >>
> >> http://www.autoartisans.com/MotorDrives/MC33030-D.pdf
> >>
> >> Knowing what I know now I'd never use this device but back then...
> >
> > i have a 1 hp treadmill motor i need a controller for
> > in view of you past experience what would you use now

Using a treadmill controller is, IMO, a great way to shoot yourself in 
the foot, or worse. Think outside that box, far better stuff at lower 
cost is available today.
> >
> > ___
> > Emc-users mailing list
> > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>
> ___
> Emc-users mailing list
> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users


Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-users] driver for a DC motor for a BS-1.

[John Dammeyer]

> From: Jon Elson [mailto:el...@pico-systems.com]
> On 10/20/2020 03:19 PM, John Dammeyer wrote:
> >
> > I looked at their web site.  (google KB Electronic DC drive).  Seems like 
> > pretty nice stuff although I wonder if they would react fast
> enough to a closed loop control.  If that was even wanted.  One of the drives 
> does support tachometer feedback.
> >
> The KB drives are SCR based, so pretty low bandwidth.
> 
> Jon

So perfect for treadmills or fans or conveyers or any sort of simple speed 
control with a knob.  But not ideal for CNC based systems.

John




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Re: [Emc-users] driver for a DC motor for a BS-1.

[Jon Elson]

On 10/20/2020 03:19 PM, John Dammeyer wrote:


I looked at their web site.  (google KB Electronic DC drive).  Seems like 
pretty nice stuff although I wonder if they would react fast enough to a closed 
loop control.  If that was even wanted.  One of the drives does support 
tachometer feedback.


The KB drives are SCR based, so pretty low bandwidth.

Jon


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Re: [Emc-users] driver for a DC motor for a BS-1.

[Jon Elson]

On 10/20/2020 03:04 PM, Dave Cole wrote:

What about using a common KB Electronics DC drive?
Woot.com (Amazon discount site) is selling one for $89.  I 
think they can commonly be found on
Note that these drives are NOT isolated from the mains.  
Anything that doesn't provide isolation for

the command will cause fireworks.

Jon


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Re: [Emc-users] driver for a DC motor for a BS-1.

[John Dammeyer]

> From: Mark Johnsen [mailto:m...@ijohnsen.com]
> KB electronics is good stuff.  Similar to the Minarik DC drives.
> Industrial rated...
> 
> Don't know about the reaction time for closed loop, but you could call them
> and I'd think their apps engr would have some idea...  My experience
> (probably limited) has not seen those types of DC drives closed loop to
> position, but I would think you could close loop to speed w/ LinuxCNC, but
> how quickly to ramp back to desired speed is the question.
> 
> Mark

On some of them the data sheets say there are trim pots for adjust acceleration 
etc.  So I think they are probably pretty solid devices.  Are they perhaps 
targeting blower and conveyer motors where speed regulation doesn't have to be 
perfect?

Still other than the "please request quote" rather than an online shop and 
price list they appear to be pretty good.   Again I guess it depends on what 
you want to control.

Back when I was testing various sensors I turned this disk with that 555 Timer 
PWM circuit and a small surplus 12V DC motor.   The little project board beside 
it converts the TTL into RS-485 if there's a noisy environment.
http://www.autoartisans.com/ELS/photos/SlottedOpto-RS485.jpg

One could even use the LMD18245 as a bridge to control a motor up to about 48V 
and 3A.

John


> 
> On Tue, Oct 20, 2020 at 1:20 PM John Dammeyer  wrote:
> 
> >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: Dave Cole [mailto:linuxcncro...@gmail.com]
> > > Sent: October-20-20 1:04 PM
> > > To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > > Subject: Re: [Emc-users] driver for a DC motor for a BS-1.
> > >
> > > What about using a common KB Electronics DC drive?
> > > Woot.com (Amazon discount site) is selling one for $89.? I think they
> > > can commonly be found on Ebay as well.
> > >
> > > Dave
> >
> > I looked at their web site.  (google KB Electronic DC drive).  Seems like
> > pretty nice stuff although I wonder if they would react fast enough to a
> > closed loop control.  If that was even wanted.  One of the drives does
> > support tachometer feedback.
> >
> > John
> >
> > >
> > > On 10/19/2020 5:22 PM, grumpy--- via Emc-users wrote:
> > > > On Sun, 18 Oct 2020, John Dammeyer wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> Way back in 2003 I started a project to control the surplus tread
> > > >> mill motors I had acquired.? At that time I was still just casting
> > > >> parts for making my Gingery Lathe and thought about making my own DC
> > > >> Servo motor controller.
> > > >>
> > > >> http://www.autoartisans.com/MotorDrives/MOTOR1-5.JPG
> > > >>
> > > >> The first prototype had a bunch of problems and then regular paying
> > > >> work took over, I needed the bench space and never revived the
> > project.
> > > >> http://www.autoartisans.com/MotorDrives/REVA0059.JPG
> > > >>
> > > >> The controller was the MC33030
> > > >>
> > > >> http://www.autoartisans.com/MotorDrives/MC33030-D.pdf
> > > >>
> > > >> Knowing what I know now I'd never use this device but back then...
> > > >
> > > > i have a 1 hp treadmill motor i need a controller for
> > > > in view of you past experience what would you use now
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ___
> > > > Emc-users mailing list
> > > > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> > >
> > >
> > > ___
> > > Emc-users mailing list
> > > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> >
> >
> >
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> > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> >
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] driver for a DC motor for a BS-1.

[Mark Johnsen]

KB electronics is good stuff.  Similar to the Minarik DC drives.
Industrial rated...

Don't know about the reaction time for closed loop, but you could call them
and I'd think their apps engr would have some idea...  My experience
(probably limited) has not seen those types of DC drives closed loop to
position, but I would think you could close loop to speed w/ LinuxCNC, but
how quickly to ramp back to desired speed is the question.

Mark

On Tue, Oct 20, 2020 at 1:20 PM John Dammeyer  wrote:

>
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Dave Cole [mailto:linuxcncro...@gmail.com]
> > Sent: October-20-20 1:04 PM
> > To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > Subject: Re: [Emc-users] driver for a DC motor for a BS-1.
> >
> > What about using a common KB Electronics DC drive?
> > Woot.com (Amazon discount site) is selling one for $89.� I think they
> > can commonly be found on Ebay as well.
> >
> > Dave
>
> I looked at their web site.  (google KB Electronic DC drive).  Seems like
> pretty nice stuff although I wonder if they would react fast enough to a
> closed loop control.  If that was even wanted.  One of the drives does
> support tachometer feedback.
>
> John
>
> >
> > On 10/19/2020 5:22 PM, grumpy--- via Emc-users wrote:
> > > On Sun, 18 Oct 2020, John Dammeyer wrote:
> > >
> > >> Way back in 2003 I started a project to control the surplus tread
> > >> mill motors I had acquired.� At that time I was still just casting
> > >> parts for making my Gingery Lathe and thought about making my own DC
> > >> Servo motor controller.
> > >>
> > >> http://www.autoartisans.com/MotorDrives/MOTOR1-5.JPG
> > >>
> > >> The first prototype had a bunch of problems and then regular paying
> > >> work took over, I needed the bench space and never revived the
> project.
> > >> http://www.autoartisans.com/MotorDrives/REVA0059.JPG
> > >>
> > >> The controller was the MC33030
> > >>
> > >> http://www.autoartisans.com/MotorDrives/MC33030-D.pdf
> > >>
> > >> Knowing what I know now I'd never use this device but back then...
> > >
> > > i have a 1 hp treadmill motor i need a controller for
> > > in view of you past experience what would you use now
> > >
> > >
> > > ___
> > > Emc-users mailing list
> > > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> >
> >
> > ___
> > Emc-users mailing list
> > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>
>
>
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Re: [Emc-users] driver for a DC motor for a BS-1.

[John Dammeyer]

> -Original Message-
> From: Dave Cole [mailto:linuxcncro...@gmail.com]
> Sent: October-20-20 1:04 PM
> To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] driver for a DC motor for a BS-1.
> 
> What about using a common KB Electronics DC drive?
> Woot.com (Amazon discount site) is selling one for $89.� I think they
> can commonly be found on Ebay as well.
> 
> Dave

I looked at their web site.  (google KB Electronic DC drive).  Seems like 
pretty nice stuff although I wonder if they would react fast enough to a closed 
loop control.  If that was even wanted.  One of the drives does support 
tachometer feedback.

John

> 
> On 10/19/2020 5:22 PM, grumpy--- via Emc-users wrote:
> > On Sun, 18 Oct 2020, John Dammeyer wrote:
> >
> >> Way back in 2003 I started a project to control the surplus tread
> >> mill motors I had acquired.� At that time I was still just casting
> >> parts for making my Gingery Lathe and thought about making my own DC
> >> Servo motor controller.
> >>
> >> http://www.autoartisans.com/MotorDrives/MOTOR1-5.JPG
> >>
> >> The first prototype had a bunch of problems and then regular paying
> >> work took over, I needed the bench space and never revived the project.
> >> http://www.autoartisans.com/MotorDrives/REVA0059.JPG
> >>
> >> The controller was the MC33030
> >>
> >> http://www.autoartisans.com/MotorDrives/MC33030-D.pdf
> >>
> >> Knowing what I know now I'd never use this device but back then...
> >
> > i have a 1 hp treadmill motor i need a controller for
> > in view of you past experience what would you use now
> >
> >
> > ___
> > Emc-users mailing list
> > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> 
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] driver for a DC motor for a BS-1.

[Dave Cole]

What about using a common KB Electronics DC drive?
Woot.com (Amazon discount site) is selling one for $89.  I think they 
can commonly be found on Ebay as well.


Dave

On 10/19/2020 5:22 PM, grumpy--- via Emc-users wrote:

On Sun, 18 Oct 2020, John Dammeyer wrote:

Way back in 2003 I started a project to control the surplus tread 
mill motors I had acquired.  At that time I was still just casting 
parts for making my Gingery Lathe and thought about making my own DC 
Servo motor controller.


http://www.autoartisans.com/MotorDrives/MOTOR1-5.JPG

The first prototype had a bunch of problems and then regular paying 
work took over, I needed the bench space and never revived the project.

http://www.autoartisans.com/MotorDrives/REVA0059.JPG

The controller was the MC33030

http://www.autoartisans.com/MotorDrives/MC33030-D.pdf

Knowing what I know now I'd never use this device but back then...


i have a 1 hp treadmill motor i need a controller for
in view of you past experience what would you use now


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Re: [Emc-users] driver for a DC motor for a BS-1.

[Gene Heskett]

On Tuesday 20 October 2020 04:05:59 John Dammeyer wrote:

> Hi Marcus,
>
> > -Original Message-
> > From: marcus.bow...@visible.eclipse.co.uk
> > [mailto:marcus.bow...@visible.eclipse.co.uk] Sent: October-20-20
> > 12:02 AM
> > To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> > Subject: Re: [Emc-users] driver for a DC motor for a BS-1.
> >
> > On 2020-10-19 23:30, John Dammeyer wrote:
> > > I haven't looked into what's available from China other than the
> > > Bergerda AC Servos I'm using as a mill spindle and will be using
> > > as the South Bend Lathe Lead screw upgrade.
> >
> > Can you tell me the model of servo, please. And explain the control
> > device?
> > That would help me move forward two ongoing projects (one for a
> > converted 1500W/2HP mill which has been running LinuxCNC for the
> > last 16 years with manual control of spindle speed, and another for
> > a 750W/1HP lathe I am upgrading from a proprietary CNC control
> > system to LinuxCNC, renewing the obsolete electronics and the motors
> > at the same time). Thanks. (It's another excuse to postpone work for
> > a few minutes...)
> >
> > Marcus
>
> I'm totally enamoured with LinuxCNC controlled spindle speed.  Can't
> wait to finish building the spindle encoder part so I can try power
> tapping.
>
> I'm still amazed at the difference in size.  This is the original
> motor, 2HP (1.5kW), 220VAC single phase, 1725 RPM.  Required an
> intermediate 4 step pulley and 4 step pulleys on spindle and motor. 
> And pretty loud. http://www.autoartisans.com/mill/MillDriveSection.jpg
>
> This is the replacement AC Servo.  110SM-M0630MAL with companion
> drive.  1.8KW, 3000 RPM, 6Nm rated torque, 18Nm peak torque, Peak
> Current 18A and 2500 line encoder.  Runs very quietly.
> http://www.autoartisans.com/mill/NewPulleys-1.jpg
>
> I could barely lift the 2HP motor off the top.  This one is quite
> light.  Now to be honest I haven't used it at anywhere near full power
> but I did do some engraving at 3000 RPM.  I'm using PWM from the MESA
> 7i92H and a far east PWM to 0-10V module.  With PWM, 100RPM to 3000
> RPM.  Can't do much less because the PWM module can't do it.
>
It probably can if using the "pdm" mode where it goes into skip a pulse 
mode for the slower stuff.

> I do plan on changing to step/dir control with a separate enable so I
> can turn the spindle by hand.
>
> I had some issues with it decelerating really fast and then vibrating
> when stopped. If I tugged on the spindle I could get it to stop or
> restart vibrating.  A quick email request to Donald at Bergerda in
> China and he talked to his engineers.  Came back with some parameter
> changes and the issues went away.  We also worked out better values
> for decelerating a bit more slowly.
>
> Here's the motor sheet
> http://en.bergerda.com/product/608.html
>
> And the drives with a table to match to the motor.
> http://en.bergerda.com/product/609.html
>
> Overall I found both the big one and a smaller 400W motor easy to work
> with.  Still not entirely happy with the RS485 link.  When the motor
> is disabled I had no trouble using their PC program for configuring
> it.  With the motor enabled the electrical noise was enough to damage
> messages.
>
> But the truth is after the initial playing around I use the front
> panel and buttons and the user manual to set/save parameters.  It's
> pretty easy and fast once you understand some of their terms for
> things.
>
> And Donald Chen has been very helpful.  I do plan on buying some more
> to replace the stepper on the Lathe Z axis and the knee stepper motor
> on the mill.  Not sure how big a motor I'll need for the knee. 
> Currently a 1200oz-in stepper run with a Gecko and 65VDC power supply.
>  Max I get on knee going up is 25 ipm and that's pushing it.
>
> John
>
> > ___
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> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>
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Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>


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Re: [Emc-users] driver for a DC motor for a BS-1.

[John Dammeyer]

Hi Marcus,

> -Original Message-
> From: marcus.bow...@visible.eclipse.co.uk 
> [mailto:marcus.bow...@visible.eclipse.co.uk]
> Sent: October-20-20 12:02 AM
> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] driver for a DC motor for a BS-1.
> 
> On 2020-10-19 23:30, John Dammeyer wrote:
> 
> > I haven't looked into what's available from China other than the
> > Bergerda AC Servos I'm using as a mill spindle and will be using as
> > the South Bend Lathe Lead screw upgrade.
> 
> Can you tell me the model of servo, please. And explain the control
> device?
> That would help me move forward two ongoing projects (one for a
> converted 1500W/2HP mill which has been running LinuxCNC for the last 16
> years with manual control of spindle speed, and another for a 750W/1HP
> lathe I am upgrading from a proprietary CNC control system to LinuxCNC,
> renewing the obsolete electronics and the motors at the same time).
> Thanks. (It's another excuse to postpone work for a few minutes...)
> 
> Marcus
> 
> 
I'm totally enamoured with LinuxCNC controlled spindle speed.  Can't wait to 
finish building the spindle encoder part so I can try power tapping.

I'm still amazed at the difference in size.  This is the original motor, 2HP 
(1.5kW), 220VAC single phase, 1725 RPM.  Required an intermediate 4 step pulley 
and 4 step pulleys on spindle and motor.  And pretty loud.
http://www.autoartisans.com/mill/MillDriveSection.jpg

This is the replacement AC Servo.  110SM-M0630MAL with companion drive.  1.8KW, 
3000 RPM, 6Nm rated torque, 18Nm peak torque, Peak Current 18A and 2500 line 
encoder.  Runs very quietly.
http://www.autoartisans.com/mill/NewPulleys-1.jpg   

I could barely lift the 2HP motor off the top.  This one is quite light.  Now 
to be honest I haven't used it at anywhere near full power but I did do some 
engraving at 3000 RPM.  I'm using PWM from the MESA 7i92H and a far east PWM to 
0-10V module.  With PWM, 100RPM to 3000 RPM.  Can't do much less because the 
PWM module can't do it.

I do plan on changing to step/dir control with a separate enable so I can turn 
the spindle by hand.

I had some issues with it decelerating really fast and then vibrating when 
stopped. If I tugged on the spindle I could get it to stop or restart 
vibrating.  A quick email request to Donald at Bergerda in China and he talked 
to his engineers.  Came back with some parameter changes and the issues went 
away.  We also worked out better values for decelerating a bit more slowly.

Here's the motor sheet
http://en.bergerda.com/product/608.html

And the drives with a table to match to the motor. 
http://en.bergerda.com/product/609.html

Overall I found both the big one and a smaller 400W motor easy to work with.  
Still not entirely happy with the RS485 link.  When the motor is disabled I had 
no trouble using their PC program for configuring it.  With the motor enabled 
the electrical noise was enough to damage messages.

But the truth is after the initial playing around I use the front panel and 
buttons and the user manual to set/save parameters.  It's pretty easy and fast 
once you understand some of their terms for things.

And Donald Chen has been very helpful.  I do plan on buying some more to 
replace the stepper on the Lathe Z axis and the knee stepper motor on the mill. 
 Not sure how big a motor I'll need for the knee.  Currently a 1200oz-in 
stepper run with a Gecko and 65VDC power supply.  Max I get on knee going up is 
25 ipm and that's pushing it.

John
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] driver for a DC motor for a BS-1.

[marcus . bowman]

On 2020-10-19 23:30, John Dammeyer wrote:


I haven't looked into what's available from China other than the
Bergerda AC Servos I'm using as a mill spindle and will be using as
the South Bend Lathe Lead screw upgrade.


Can you tell me the model of servo, please. And explain the control 
device?
That would help me move forward two ongoing projects (one for a 
converted 1500W/2HP mill which has been running LinuxCNC for the last 16 
years with manual control of spindle speed, and another for a 750W/1HP 
lathe I am upgrading from a proprietary CNC control system to LinuxCNC, 
renewing the obsolete electronics and the motors at the same time).

Thanks. (It's another excuse to postpone work for a few minutes...)

Marcus



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Re: [Emc-users] driver for a DC motor for a BS-1.

[Gene Heskett]

On Monday 19 October 2020 17:22:35 grumpy--- via Emc-users wrote:

> On Sun, 18 Oct 2020, John Dammeyer wrote:
> > Way back in 2003 I started a project to control the surplus tread
> > mill motors I had acquired.  At that time I was still just casting
> > parts for making my Gingery Lathe and thought about making my own DC
> > Servo motor controller.
> >
> > http://www.autoartisans.com/MotorDrives/MOTOR1-5.JPG
> >
> > The first prototype had a bunch of problems and then regular paying
> > work took over, I needed the bench space and never revived the
> > project. http://www.autoartisans.com/MotorDrives/REVA0059.JPG
> >
> > The controller was the MC33030
> >
> > http://www.autoartisans.com/MotorDrives/MC33030-D.pdf
> >
> > Knowing what I know now I'd never use this device but back then...
>
> i have a 1 hp treadmill motor i need a controller for
> in view of you past experience what would you use now
>
If you can supply a big enough power supply, the Pico Systems pwm-servo 
amp is very hard to beat. I use 2 of them here. Both  with power 
supplies of 120-130 volts capable of doing close to 20 amps continuous. 
That will make those 90 volt motors pull close to 2hp while pulling 
stumps like rigid tapping.  Be sure and tell Jon you are going to use 
them for spindle drive and he will modify them for that sort of 
continuous duty.

I have mine set to current limit at around 17 amps, not quite double the 
motors nameplate amps.  These motors are tough, neither has complained 
in years.

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Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-users] driver for a DC motor for a BS-1.

[Gene Heskett]

On Sunday 18 October 2020 22:21:11 Chris Albertson wrote:

> Gene,
>
> Read the first page of the data sheet.   It says near the end of the
> first page...
>
> *The speed of the motor can be controlled in all possible conditions
> by the
>
> > PWM up to kHz. In all cases, a low level state on the PWM pin will
> > turn off both the LSA and LSB switches. When PWM rises to a high
> > level, LSA or LSB turn on again depending on the input pin state.*
>
> What they are saying is that PWM acts like a master switch and when
> low it opens-circuits the entire h-bridge.  When PWM is high then
> whatever switches are turned on by INA and INB are as you'd expect.
> (Yes, they dropped the number of khz, a typo in the data sheet.)
>
> I've got a pile of these chips and this is exactly how they work  PWM
> controls the current in the motor and is effective speed control.   
> At about 10% PWM the motor starts to overcome its internal friction
> and starts to move at 100% the motor turns as if connected directly to
> a battery.

olimex boards have arrived. But am in bad need of hookup schematic to 
drive it with LCNC.  It looks as if it takes at least 8 wires to hook it 
up.  Since there are only 2 from the pwmgen, it looks as i I need some 
sort of a simple interfaceing board to connect them together.  Bare 
minimum of dir and its complement. 

To be applied to the enaA and enaB for direction control.  Looks like 2 
comp modules looking at the pidA output but with reversed inputs. And a 
wee bit of historesis for deadband braking. In addf order immediately 
after pidA.  Actually, use the existing pwmgen dir sig for reverse, and 
a comp for forward. But that won't give a simetrical(sp) deadband brake.

Got a better idea?

Thanks Chris.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-users] driver for a DC motor for a BS-1.

[John Dammeyer]

> -Original Message-
> From: grumpy--- via Emc-users [mailto:emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net]
> Sent: October-19-20 2:23 PM
> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> Cc: gru...@mailfence.com
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] driver for a DC motor for a BS-1.
> 
> On Sun, 18 Oct 2020, John Dammeyer wrote:
> 
> > Way back in 2003 I started a project to control the surplus tread mill 
> > motors I had acquired.  At that time I was still just casting
> parts for making my Gingery Lathe and thought about making my own DC Servo 
> motor controller.
> >
> > http://www.autoartisans.com/MotorDrives/MOTOR1-5.JPG
> >
> > The first prototype had a bunch of problems and then regular paying work 
> > took over, I needed the bench space and never
> revived the project.
> > http://www.autoartisans.com/MotorDrives/REVA0059.JPG
> >
> > The controller was the MC33030
> >
> > http://www.autoartisans.com/MotorDrives/MC33030-D.pdf
> >
> > Knowing what I know now I'd never use this device but back then...
> 
> i have a 1 hp treadmill motor i need a controller for
> in view of you past experience what would you use now
> 
Sorry.  Just realized I typed another one of my really long answers.

I have 3 of the smaller motors.  One is in use as the blower motor for my 
foundry.  Simple PWM control to a FET that applies power to the motor.  The 
software in the ATMEL processor for starting the foundry runs the motor slowly 
for a bit.  Then the spark plug is started sparking, finally the gas solenoid 
is enabled and woosh out comes the flame from the open top.  

Now ideally, and the firmware is there for it, the UF Flame detector then sees 
the flame and spins up the fan to full speed for the jet size.  This pulls the 
orange flame back into the furnace turning it blue and ready for melting.  But 
I never did get around to mounting the flame detector so it's timed.  And I'm 
ready on the ESTOP.

I also built a simple 555 Timer to PWM to FET based module that also drove one 
of the smaller treadmill motors turning a CAM shaft pulley on a Honda VTEC 
engine.  That was used to create the hall sensor waveforms for testing the 
CD/multiport fuel injection computer I designed for homebuilt aircraft and 
hovercraft.

Not sure where the 3rd motor is at the moment but I was going to use it on the 
Unimat DB-200.  In all these cases the motor turns only one direction.  I did 
find out later that the brush orientation of the treadmill motors was set in a 
way that don't make them great servo motors.  And there aren't enough contacts 
on the commutator for precise positioning.  But I don't know that for a fact.

After the trouble I had with my little MC33030 board I ended up ordering (and 
still have) an MC-60 controller board.  I tested it on the 1.5HP treadmill 
motor with the big flywheel but by then I'd bought a standard 1HP single phase 
sealed motor for the Gingery Lathe.  No speed control.  COTS Zinc die cast 4 
step V belt pulleys that aren't totally round.  But I wanted reliable speed for 
the ELS development.

One of the members of the STMBL group have found some more of the driver chips 
for the STMBL.  I have 3 of those boards (and two spare chips).  I bought the 
SMD assembled boards from Andy Pugh in the UK.  Bought the drivers and a few 
other parts from Mouser and Digikey.  I'm only using one on the Harmonic Drive 
4th axis.  

I did try to get the DC motors on the mill to work with the STMBLs but I 
couldn't get the brushed servo version to work very well.  OTOH, the HP_UHU 
drives have worked very well.  The original ATMEL chip from Uli Huber was 
sensitive to noise on the encoders I was using so I changed encoders and went 
to Henriks processor upgrade.  Been working well.

And I have two of the GECKO DC Servo drives that are as yet unused.  They are a 
little on the low voltage size for the treadmill motors I think with an 80V or 
so top limit.

So if you can attach an encoder to the treadmill, my preference for standalone 
servo (no LinuxCNC HAL required) would be the UHU controllers since they can be 
outfitted with devices for rectified/filtered 110VAC (about 165VDC) which I 
think is the rating for most treadmill motors.  But although I understand Uli 
still sells his processors I'm not sure if there is anyone building boards for 
them.

Similar supply problem with the STBML but it definitely would be my second 
choice.  The designer has used it with a brushed servo and said it worked well. 
 But support to help me work through the issues I had wasn't as solid 
unfortunately.  But then I stopped pursuing it once I found that going to a CUI 
encoder and Henrik's board solved the problems.  The advantage of the STMBL is 
full source code is available and it's pretty powerful.

And there used to be a company called Granite

Re: [Emc-users] driver for a DC motor for a BS-1.

[grumpy--- via Emc-users]

On Sun, 18 Oct 2020, John Dammeyer wrote:


Way back in 2003 I started a project to control the surplus tread mill motors I 
had acquired.  At that time I was still just casting parts for making my 
Gingery Lathe and thought about making my own DC Servo motor controller.

http://www.autoartisans.com/MotorDrives/MOTOR1-5.JPG

The first prototype had a bunch of problems and then regular paying work took 
over, I needed the bench space and never revived the project.
http://www.autoartisans.com/MotorDrives/REVA0059.JPG

The controller was the MC33030

http://www.autoartisans.com/MotorDrives/MC33030-D.pdf

Knowing what I know now I'd never use this device but back then...


i have a 1 hp treadmill motor i need a controller for
in view of you past experience what would you use now


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Re: [Emc-users] driver for a DC motor for a BS-1.

[Gene Heskett]

On Sunday 18 October 2020 22:21:11 Chris Albertson wrote:

> Gene,
>
> Read the first page of the data sheet.   It says near the end of the
> first page...
>
> *The speed of the motor can be controlled in all possible conditions
> by the
>
> > PWM up to kHz. In all cases, a low level state on the PWM pin will
> > turn off both the LSA and LSB switches. When PWM rises to a high
> > level, LSA or LSB turn on again depending on the input pin state.*
>
> What they are saying is that PWM acts like a master switch and when
> low it opens-circuits the entire h-bridge.  When PWM is high then
> whatever switches are turned on by INA and INB are as you'd expect.
> (Yes, they dropped the number of khz, a typo in the data sheet.)

So my thought to run it in mode 2 won't work, but the default mode 1 
will.  That puts a much brighter light on this. Yesterday I moved a 
bunch of stuff, but asking the 5i25 for a 2nd pwmgen will output it as 
pulse/dir thru the stock bob on the 5i25's p2 connector. Ditto for a 2nd 
encoder.

Using the unused gpio's on the 7i76 can be a puzzle as you have to go 
poking with a scope probe to find the signal you want, at the polarity 
you want.  There is no translation for the gpio's not used by your 
config.  And having that row of spindle stuff on TB4 winds up using only 
the enable because Jon's pwm-servo needs 12 volts to enable it. So I 
wind up using the pwm/dir signals directly from TB3. Just select the 
polarity you need.

> I've got a pile of these chips and this is exactly how they work  PWM
> controls the current in the motor and is effective speed control.   
> At about 10% PWM the motor starts to overcome its internal friction
> and starts to move at 100% the motor turns as if connected directly to
> a battery.
>
> An experiment you can try is to drive the VNH3 chip and some random
> motor you have using the same Arduino sketch linked fromPolulu's web
> site.  The sample ramps up and down the motor speed and reverse the
> direction and just keeps doing that.   Actually there is no reason to
> wire it up.  Just read the Code.   Or just trust that my pseudo-code
> below accurately describes the Arduino sketch
>
> # Ramp up the motor speed
> for j in range 0,,,400 {
> output (PWM-pin, j)
> delay(10 milliseconds)
> }
>
> The above is pretty much out of Polu's example code and make a motor
> spin slow then fast.
>
> If you have never used one of these h-bridge driver chips then get to
> know it outside of LCNC.  Try rubberbanding a pencil to the motor
> shaft and try and make it move like a windshield wiper blade using
> first principles, not connected to LCNC.  Just count encoder ticks and
> change directions.  A few GPIO pins on a Raspberry Pi or an Arduino
> and some wire is enough

Or 4 wires from the pwmgen.1 should do it, (gnd/pwm/dir-/dir+, with the 
dirs fed to enA and enB). +4 wires (power/ground/A/B) for the motors 
encoder, which I think is slow enough I won't have to bypass the opto 
junk on a SainSmart bob. I think. I've had to cut that bottle of cold 
molasses out before. I'll have to look at that bob, I may have already 
done that one.

dmesg says I am at least partially configured:
[521887.134683] hm2/hm2_5i25.0: IO Pin 025 (P2-05): PWMGen #1, pin 
Out1 (Dir or Down) (Output)
[521887.134692] hm2/hm2_5i25.0: IO Pin 026 (P2-06): PWMGen #1, pin 
Out0 (PWM or Up) (Output)
[521887.134699] hm2/hm2_5i25.0: IO Pin 027 (P2-07): IOPort
[521887.134705] hm2/hm2_5i25.0: IO Pin 028 (P2-08): IOPort
[521887.134712] hm2/hm2_5i25.0: IO Pin 029 (P2-09): IOPort
[521887.134718] hm2/hm2_5i25.0: IO Pin 030 (P2-10): IOPort
[521887.134726] hm2/hm2_5i25.0: IO Pin 031 (P2-11): Encoder #1, pin 
Index (Input)
[521887.134734] hm2/hm2_5i25.0: IO Pin 032 (P2-12): Encoder #1, pin B 
(Input)
[521887.134742] hm2/hm2_5i25.0: IO Pin 033 (P2-13): Encoder #1, pin A 
(Input)


This conversation has put a much better light on this chip, thank you 
Chris.

One last Q since this pwmgen comes out of the 5i25 on p2, there is no 
complement to the dir signal available. Is one signal sufficient?

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-users] driver for a DC motor for a BS-1.

[John Dammeyer]

Hi Gene,
> From: Gene Heskett [mailto:ghesk...@shentel.net]
> On Sunday 18 October 2020 18:35:39 John Dammeyer wrote:
> 
> Yes, one of those clones in BS-1 size. Almost too big for a g0704 due to
> its height. But the g0704 seems to handle the weight just fine, which
> without the motor is still 88 Kg. So I had to rig an electric hoist to
> place it.
> 
> > Given the torque multiplication with the worm gear why aren't you just
> > using a stepper motor and step/dir interface?  Seems like buying audio
> > amps and DC motor drivers etc is all making what is fundamentally
> > simple very complicated and expensive.
> 
> Worms require lots of torque to move them under cutting loads, which you
> have to do to cut spiral gears. Which I intend to do.  This motor is
> also a right angle worm drive, and has about a 100 line quadrature
> encoder on the motor shaft. The worm in the BS-1 clone has more backlash
> than this motor has. Very poorly made, not even a bearing ball on the
> end-play adjuster, nor is the bolt ground flat, right out of the box.
> Making this plate will also give me a good excuse to install some
> adjuster screws on the mesh adjuster.

When I sized a stepper motor for my 1942 South Bend Heavy 10L Lathe I made this 
adaptor for a socket.
http://www.autoartisans.com/southbend/TorqueTestAdaptor.jpg
I then used a torque wrench to measure what it took to move the carriage.  That 
turned out to not work well because the torque wrench wasn't sensitive enough.

So then I hung a 3/8" flex handle on the socket and turned the leadscrew until 
it was horizontal.  After that I hung weight on it at the 12" point until the 
carriage moved.  The weight needed to do that was the torque to overcome static 
friction.  I multiplied that by 2 and then used that value compared against 
stepper motor torque reduction verses speed charts and chose a 300 oz-in motor 
with 2:1 belt drive.
http://www.autoartisans.com/southbend/Z-AxisMotorMount.jpg

It's been more than adequate within the speed specifications chosen.  Would I 
like a faster slew rate to move the carriage out of the way?  Yes.  But the 
lathe is old and the half nut and leadscrew were never designed for those types 
of speeds.  So unless I replace the leadscrew with a ball screw what I have 
works.

So again I question whether the you need a work drive motor coupled to a worm 
drive dividing head.  Nowadays stepper drivers are so cheap (as are the motors) 
overall if you want the unit operating this year it might be easier to go 
stepper motor.

John Dammeyer



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Re: [Emc-users] driver for a DC motor for a BS-1.

[Gene Heskett]

On Sunday 18 October 2020 18:35:39 John Dammeyer wrote:

> Hi Gene,
> Just to bring this back to real life here.  You have one of these
> right?
>
> https://www.amazon.ca/Semi-Universal-Dividing-Vertical-Horizontal-Inde
>xing/dp/B00RMLWNHS

Yes, one of those clones in BS-1 size. Almost too big for a g0704 due to 
its height. But the g0704 seems to handle the weight just fine, which 
without the motor is still 88 Kg. So I had to rig an electric hoist to 
place it.

> And you want to control it via CNC right?
Yes.

> Given the torque multiplication with the worm gear why aren't you just
> using a stepper motor and step/dir interface?  Seems like buying audio
> amps and DC motor drivers etc is all making what is fundamentally
> simple very complicated and expensive.

Worms require lots of torque to move them under cutting loads, which you 
have to do to cut spiral gears. Which I intend to do.  This motor is 
also a right angle worm drive, and has about a 100 line quadrature 
encoder on the motor shaft. The worm in the BS-1 clone has more backlash 
than this motor has. Very poorly made, not even a bearing ball on the 
end-play adjuster, nor is the bolt ground flat, right out of the box. 
Making this plate will also give me a good excuse to install some 
adjuster screws on the mesh adjuster.

I won't know the exact SCALE until I can move it as I have, sitting 
commented out in the hal file, enough extra code to turn it past the 
home switch about 105 turns, measureing the encoder counter for 100 
turns in the middle of that spin. Divide result by 100 to get SCALE in 
that gear.  Same code I used to determine the spindles SCALE when I put 
a 1000 line encoder on the rear of the spindle motor, replaceing the 
hacked up, shop made optical that had so much quantization noise it 
hammered the gears in the head making it sound like all the ball 
bearings were filled with square balls busily chewing up their cages. 
Before, it oscillated with Pgains above 2.5-3, now its  happy with 
Pgains in the 20+ range. But I need to see if I can rig an ammeter 
because I can no longer hear a slowdown while tapping until I hear the 
iron in the motor chirp when the Pico pwm-servo I'm using for spindle 
drive goes into current limit at about 17.5 amps. In the process of 
doing the gear shifting, theres no meshing ramps on those plastic gears 
so when the gearshift knob is between gears, the motor is now set to 
idling at about 20 rpms, saving me the trouble of grabbing the spindle 
and hand meshing the gears to complete the shift.  And the response is 
so fast with Jon's servo that I can do knob cranks at full song without 
damaging the gears.

But that whole head has a ton of spinning at full song at 3k revs hours 
on it now, and is about due for fresh gears and bearings. The bearings 
are all skate wheel bearings except the spindle itself and are getting 
noisy.  Those can be had from VFX for around a 5 dollar bill for a 
sleeve of 10. But we all know how shitty VFX bearings are. I'll use 
better than that when the time comes.  And metal gears if I can find 
them.

But I got stopped about dinner time tonight as I'm going to have to cut 
that side spacer plate out in two passes, not enough Y table range to do 
it in one pass. The cnc kit I used years ago puts the Y motor out front 
and limits the g09704 Y motion to a couple red hairs above 5" and I need 
a bit over 6 to do it in one pass.  Theres a different kit that puts the 
Y motor on the rear, which keeps the Y range better, but requires more 
machining I couldn't do without an even bigger mill.  Sigh.  This mill 
has other problems, like a post that leans a bit and cannot be 
straightened without reaming the bolt holes. Its a BBLB mill at the end 
of the day. Emphasizing the unbreak-ability of the TANSTAAFL law. ;-)

> John Dammeyer
>
Thanks John D.
>
>
>
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Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
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Re: [Emc-users] driver for a DC motor for a BS-1.

[Gregg Eshelman via Emc-users]

What many people use for those high voltage DC treadmill motors is a MC2100 
controller. Those are used in the fancier treadmills that have buttons to tick 
the speed up and down.There are many schematics and other info on how to build 
a potentiometer controlled PWM circuit for these or an interface to CNC for 
speed control.

Cheaper ones with a rotary knob or a slide control most often have an MC60 
controller. These may or may not work as a spindle driver, depending on how the 
circuitry is setup. Control is as simple as properly connecting a 
potentiometer. One I tried was setup to not start the motor until the knob was 
up to 50%, where it'd slam on at 50% speed. Then if it was slowed down too 
quickly it'd shut down until it was power cycled. I sold it for a decent price, 
presumably to someone needing it for a treadmill, because in the listing I 
detailed all the reasons it *was not* useful for a machine spindle control.

The MC60 is an SCR controller and it makes the motor quite noisy and torque 
suffers at lower RPM.

On Sunday, October 18, 2020, 12:42:32 PM MDT, John Dammeyer 
 wrote:  
 
 Way back in 2003 I started a project to control the surplus tread mill motors 
I had acquired.  At that time I was still just casting parts for making my 
Gingery Lathe and thought about making my own DC Servo motor controller.

http://www.autoartisans.com/MotorDrives/MOTOR1-5.JPG

The first prototype had a bunch of problems and then regular paying work took 
over, I needed the bench space and never revived the project.  
http://www.autoartisans.com/MotorDrives/REVA0059.JPG

The controller was the MC33030

http://www.autoartisans.com/MotorDrives/MC33030-D.pdf

Knowing what I know now I'd never use this device but back then...

John  
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Re: [Emc-users] driver for a DC motor for a BS-1.

[Chris Albertson]

Gene,

Read the first page of the data sheet.   It says near the end of the first
page...

*The speed of the motor can be controlled in all possible conditions by the
> PWM up to kHz. In all cases, a low level state on the PWM pin will turn off
> both the LSA and LSB switches. When PWM rises to a high level, LSA or LSB
> turn on again depending on the input pin state.*


What they are saying is that PWM acts like a master switch and when low it
opens-circuits the entire h-bridge.  When PWM is high then whatever
switches are turned on by INA and INB are as you'd expect. (Yes, they
dropped the number of khz, a typo in the data sheet.)

I've got a pile of these chips and this is exactly how they work  PWM
controls the current in the motor and is effective speed control.At
about 10% PWM the motor starts to overcome its internal friction and starts
to move at 100% the motor turns as if connected directly to a battery.

An experiment you can try is to drive the VNH3 chip and some random motor
you have using the same Arduino sketch linked fromPolulu's web site.  The
sample ramps up and down the motor speed and reverse the direction and just
keeps doing that.   Actually there is no reason to wire it up.  Just read
the Code.   Or just trust that my pseudo-code below accurately describes
the Arduino sketch

# Ramp up the motor speed
for j in range 0,,,400 {
output (PWM-pin, j)
delay(10 milliseconds)
}

The above is pretty much out of Polu's example code and make a motor spin
slow then fast.

If you have never used one of these h-bridge driver chips then get to know
it outside of LCNC.  Try rubberbanding a pencil to the motor shaft and try
and make it move like a windshield wiper blade using first principles, not
connected to LCNC.  Just count encoder ticks and change directions.  A few
GPIO pins on a Raspberry Pi or an Arduino and some wire is enough





DOn't workyabout the switching speed to reverse the motor.  ANy real motor
will have momentum and this will be the limiting factor

On Sun, Oct 18, 2020 at 9:54 AM Gene Heskett  wrote:

> On Thursday 15 October 2020 12:55:16 Chris Albertson wrote:
>
> > Gene just Google the part number "VNH3SP30".   Polulu has them.  It is
> > in fact my "go to" driver.  These were developed for automotive use
> > for things like driver seat adjustment motors.
> >
> > Polulu's version of this has reverse voltage protection but they
> > seriously de-rate the chip.   Just read the datasheet that is linked
> > from their site.
> >
> I have the STM docs printout on that chip under my left elbow. 2 things I
> note from that.
>
> 1. direction changes are slow. No consequences when driven by the human
> hand running a joystick on the side of the seat, but important for
> computer control.
>
> 2. No evidence from the waveforms shown that the pwm is used for anything
> but a logic clock. At no point in the waveforms shown starting on page
> 13, is there any evidence of the pwm actually modulating the outA or
> outB voltage in time with the input pwm. This is designed as an on/off
> control only, and low standby current consumption in the very low
> microamps was the prime specification driver. The boards I have ordered,
> unless they are doing something that STM does not know or show, are not
> capable of pwm driven analog control.
>
> So while I may hook it up, I can't see it as working as a servo because
> its un-modulated by the pwm input. Which is why I also have a pair of
> 150 watt rated class-D audio amps ordered. For a similar price. They are
> rated only for 27 volts. Higher voltage and wattages priced accordingly.
> I'll turn that 24 volts down as low as it can go, and smoke test it. I
> also have some A-D 48 volters that will turn down to 42.5 that might be
> usable with the 400 watt versions. Over current foldbacks on those not
> tested, but they sure run a 3 phase, 2 or 3NM rated stepper very nicely
> on the Sheldon lathe. Both sweet and silent compared to regular
> steppers.
>
> > Here is the way I used these...
> > I buy a slightly different version of the chip that comes on an
> > "Arduio Sheild"  ebay link
> >  >1-117182-37290-0&mkcid=2&itemid=401089386943&targetid=934793863816&devi
> >ce=c&mktype=pla&googleloc=9031026&poi=&campaignid=10877149888&mkgroupid
> >=107912403075&rlsatarget=aud-622524042918:pla-934793863816&abcId=930040
> >0&merchantid=101638797&gclid=CjwKCAjw5p_8BRBUEiwAPpJO6-QTPa9wyIxLjU-wVv
> >6qq8PaY8DUPaxrZw7TRhXg8XKzfNEiapIrIhoCidAQAvD_BwE> Then I buy a Nucleo
> > board from STM www.digikey.com/...NUCLEO-F401RE
> >  >F401RE/4695525?WT.mc_id=frommaker.io> These mate together with a bunch
> > of 0.1" header pins.
> >
> > With some software in the STM32 I now have a USB connected dual motor
> > driver that can handle up to about 20 amps peak and 12 A continuously
> > The control PID loops run on the STM32 an

Re: [Emc-users] driver for a DC motor for a BS-1.

[John Dammeyer]

Hi Gene,
Just to bring this back to real life here.  You have one of these right?

https://www.amazon.ca/Semi-Universal-Dividing-Vertical-Horizontal-Indexing/dp/B00RMLWNHS

And you want to control it via CNC right?

Given the torque multiplication with the worm gear why aren't you just using a 
stepper motor and step/dir interface?  Seems like buying audio amps and DC 
motor drivers etc is all making what is fundamentally simple very complicated 
and expensive.

John Dammeyer




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Re: [Emc-users] driver for a DC motor for a BS-1.

[Gene Heskett]

On Sunday 18 October 2020 17:44:24 Thaddeus Waldner wrote:

> https://www.pololu.com/file/0J52/vnh2sp30.pdf
> 
>
> Page 10, center table. Tr is rise time, Tf is fall time. The diagram
> on figure 5 two pages down shows the timing as coinciding with and
> measured from with the PWM signal coming in.

I read that, but the top waveform  on page 13 doesn't show that.  So much 
for accurate pdf's I guess. :(

> Also on the first page:
> "In all cases, a low level state on the PWM pin will turn off both the
> LSA and LSB switches. When PWM rises to a high level, LSA or LSB turn
> on again depending on the input pin state."

Anyway, I have 2 of those coming, and 2 of the 420 watt audio boards 
coming, and 1 150 watt audio board coming. The audio boards will need to 
have the input caps replaced by a wire jumper, and possibly even a bias 
summing point for best operation.  They are also buckets faster.
 >
> > On Oct 18, 2020, at 4:28 PM, Gene Heskett 
> > wrote:
> >
> > On what page do you see that, Thaddeus?
>
Thanks Thaddeus.
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Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-users] driver for a DC motor for a BS-1.

[Thaddeus Waldner]

https://www.pololu.com/file/0J52/vnh2sp30.pdf 


Page 10, center table. Tr is rise time, Tf is fall time. The diagram on figure 
5 two pages down shows the timing as coinciding with and measured from with the 
PWM signal coming in.

Also on the first page: 
"In all cases, a low level state on the PWM pin will turn off both the LSA and 
LSB switches. When PWM rises to a high level, LSA or LSB turn on again 
depending on the input pin state."

> On Oct 18, 2020, at 4:28 PM, Gene Heskett  wrote:
> 
> On what page do you see that, Thaddeus?


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Re: [Emc-users] driver for a DC motor for a BS-1.

[Gene Heskett]

On Sunday 18 October 2020 14:23:29 Thaddeus Waldner wrote:

> > 1. direction changes are slow. No consequences when driven by the
> > human hand running a joystick on the side of the seat, but important
> > for computer control.
>
> Typical delay for changing direction is 600microseconds. This is less
> than the typical LinuxCNC servo period of 1ms. The reason for this
> delay is probably due to the relatively slow switching speeds of the
> high-side mosfets, to eliminate shoot-through. If you plan to change
> motor directions no faster than the LinuxCNC servo thread, why is this
> too slow?
>
> This is too slow to drive  the motor in "synchronous antiphase” or
> with a triangular waveform but I don’t get why you want to do that.
> But there are many things I don’t get. :)
>
> > 2. No evidence from the waveforms shown that the pwm is used for
> > anything but a logic clock. At no point in the waveforms shown
> > starting on page 13, is there any evidence of the pwm actually
> > modulating the outA or outB voltage in time with the input pwm. This
> > is designed as an on/off control only, and low standby current
> > consumption in the very low microamps was the prime specification
> > driver. The boards I have ordered, unless they are doing something
> > that STM does not know or show, are not capable of pwm driven analog
> > control.
>
> As per the timing diagrams, the PWM input directly controls the
> low-side power mosfet with a 1.5 to 5 microsecond rise/fall time.
>
On what page do you see that, Thaddeus?

Thanks.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-users] driver for a DC motor for a BS-1.

[John Dammeyer]

Way back in 2003 I started a project to control the surplus tread mill motors I 
had acquired.  At that time I was still just casting parts for making my 
Gingery Lathe and thought about making my own DC Servo motor controller.

http://www.autoartisans.com/MotorDrives/MOTOR1-5.JPG

The first prototype had a bunch of problems and then regular paying work took 
over, I needed the bench space and never revived the project.  
http://www.autoartisans.com/MotorDrives/REVA0059.JPG

The controller was the MC33030

http://www.autoartisans.com/MotorDrives/MC33030-D.pdf

Knowing what I know now I'd never use this device but back then...

John




> -Original Message-
> From: Thaddeus Waldner [mailto:thadw...@gmail.com]
> Sent: October-18-20 11:23 AM
> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] driver for a DC motor for a BS-1.
> 
> > 1. direction changes are slow. No consequences when driven by the human
> > hand running a joystick on the side of the seat, but important for
> > computer control.
> 
> Typical delay for changing direction is 600microseconds. This is less than 
> the typical LinuxCNC servo period of 1ms. The reason for
> this delay is probably due to the relatively slow switching speeds of the 
> high-side mosfets, to eliminate shoot-through. If you plan
> to change motor directions no faster than the LinuxCNC servo thread, why is 
> this too slow?
> 
> This is too slow to drive  the motor in "synchronous antiphase� or with a 
> triangular waveform but I don�t get why you want to do
> that. But there are many things I don�t get. :)
> 
> > 2. No evidence from the waveforms shown that the pwm is used for anything
> > but a logic clock. At no point in the waveforms shown starting on page
> > 13, is there any evidence of the pwm actually modulating the outA or
> > outB voltage in time with the input pwm. This is designed as an on/off
> > control only, and low standby current consumption in the very low
> > microamps was the prime specification driver. The boards I have ordered,
> > unless they are doing something that STM does not know or show, are not
> > capable of pwm driven analog control.
> 
> As per the timing diagrams, the PWM input directly controls the low-side 
> power mosfet with a 1.5 to 5 microsecond rise/fall time.
> 
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] driver for a DC motor for a BS-1.

[Thaddeus Waldner]

> 1. direction changes are slow. No consequences when driven by the human 
> hand running a joystick on the side of the seat, but important for 
> computer control.

Typical delay for changing direction is 600microseconds. This is less than the 
typical LinuxCNC servo period of 1ms. The reason for this delay is probably due 
to the relatively slow switching speeds of the high-side mosfets, to eliminate 
shoot-through. If you plan to change motor directions no faster than the 
LinuxCNC servo thread, why is this too slow?

This is too slow to drive  the motor in "synchronous antiphase” or with a 
triangular waveform but I don’t get why you want to do that. But there are many 
things I don’t get. :)

> 2. No evidence from the waveforms shown that the pwm is used for anything 
> but a logic clock. At no point in the waveforms shown starting on page 
> 13, is there any evidence of the pwm actually modulating the outA or 
> outB voltage in time with the input pwm. This is designed as an on/off 
> control only, and low standby current consumption in the very low 
> microamps was the prime specification driver. The boards I have ordered, 
> unless they are doing something that STM does not know or show, are not 
> capable of pwm driven analog control.

As per the timing diagrams, the PWM input directly controls the low-side power 
mosfet with a 1.5 to 5 microsecond rise/fall time. 


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Re: [Emc-users] driver for a DC motor for a BS-1.

[Gene Heskett]

On Thursday 15 October 2020 12:55:16 Chris Albertson wrote:

> Gene just Google the part number "VNH3SP30".   Polulu has them.  It is
> in fact my "go to" driver.  These were developed for automotive use
> for things like driver seat adjustment motors.
>
> Polulu's version of this has reverse voltage protection but they
> seriously de-rate the chip.   Just read the datasheet that is linked
> from their site.
>
I have the STM docs printout on that chip under my left elbow. 2 things I 
note from that.

1. direction changes are slow. No consequences when driven by the human 
hand running a joystick on the side of the seat, but important for 
computer control.

2. No evidence from the waveforms shown that the pwm is used for anything 
but a logic clock. At no point in the waveforms shown starting on page 
13, is there any evidence of the pwm actually modulating the outA or 
outB voltage in time with the input pwm. This is designed as an on/off 
control only, and low standby current consumption in the very low 
microamps was the prime specification driver. The boards I have ordered, 
unless they are doing something that STM does not know or show, are not 
capable of pwm driven analog control.

So while I may hook it up, I can't see it as working as a servo because 
its un-modulated by the pwm input. Which is why I also have a pair of 
150 watt rated class-D audio amps ordered. For a similar price. They are 
rated only for 27 volts. Higher voltage and wattages priced accordingly. 
I'll turn that 24 volts down as low as it can go, and smoke test it. I 
also have some A-D 48 volters that will turn down to 42.5 that might be 
usable with the 400 watt versions. Over current foldbacks on those not 
tested, but they sure run a 3 phase, 2 or 3NM rated stepper very nicely 
on the Sheldon lathe. Both sweet and silent compared to regular 
steppers.

> Here is the way I used these...
> I buy a slightly different version of the chip that comes on an
> "Arduio Sheild"  ebay link
> 1-117182-37290-0&mkcid=2&itemid=401089386943&targetid=934793863816&devi
>ce=c&mktype=pla&googleloc=9031026&poi=&campaignid=10877149888&mkgroupid
>=107912403075&rlsatarget=aud-622524042918:pla-934793863816&abcId=930040
>0&merchantid=101638797&gclid=CjwKCAjw5p_8BRBUEiwAPpJO6-QTPa9wyIxLjU-wVv
>6qq8PaY8DUPaxrZw7TRhXg8XKzfNEiapIrIhoCidAQAvD_BwE> Then I buy a Nucleo
> board from STM www.digikey.com/...NUCLEO-F401RE
> F401RE/4695525?WT.mc_id=frommaker.io> These mate together with a bunch
> of 0.1" header pins.
>
> With some software in the STM32 I now have a USB connected dual motor
> driver that can handle up to about 20 amps peak and 12 A continuously 
> The control PID loops run on the STM32 and I only have to send speed
> or position commands over the USB cable.  It would be about as easy to
> assemble an Ethernet or SPI connected motor controller from these same
> parts. The stack-up is a little bulky but it is so easy to do and
> cheap I can put up with the excess cubic volume.
>
> On Thu, Oct 15, 2020 at 9:12 AM Gene Heskett  
wrote:
> > On Thursday 15 October 2020 08:32:07 Roland Jollivet wrote:
> > > Maybe this is good for you, if available locally;
> > >
> > > https://www.olimex.com/Products/Robot-CNC-Parts/MotorDrivers/BB-VN
> > >H3SP 30/open-source-hardware
> >
> > I give up, none of the 3 USA distributors are carrying that item.
> >
> > > On Wed, 14 Oct 2020 at 22:42, Gene Heskett 
> >
> > wrote:
> > > > After it finally was delivered, testing looks good but now I
> > > > need a controller, smaller and lower voltage than one of Jons
> > > > pwm-servo's.
> > > >
> > > > This motor supposedly turns 220 rpms no load with 24 volts
> > > > applied.
> > > >
> > > > It has an encoder on the rear which is making a 5.4khz
> > > > quadrature signal when its running free, out of 4 wires, no
> > > > index which is fine as I'll put a switch on the BS-1 for a
> > > > home/index anyway.
> > > >
> > > > This motor draws 4 amps at max rated 100 watt input.
> > > > No clue what the LRA amps is but it does jump pretty good
> > > > getting started so I'd expect startup in-rush to be at least 10
> > > > amps.
> > > >
> > > > I'd like to control its position like a common rotary servo
> > > > axis, so what do we have in our linuxcnc toolbox that looks like
> > > > a bi-dir pwn controlled twin H bridge to run a 24volt brushed
> > > > PMDC motor with a 10 amp in-rush as if it were a servo?
> > > >
> > > > Thanks all.
> > > >
> > > > Cheers, Gene Heskett
> > > > --
> > > > "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
> > > >  soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
> > > > -Ed Howdershelt (Author)
> > > > If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law
> > > > respectable. - Louis D. Brandeis
> > > > Genes Web page 
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > __

Re: [Emc-users] driver for a DC motor for a BS-1.

[Mark Johnsen]

There's a reason why the LinuxCNC mailing list is one of the few mailing
lists that I get to my inbox and read frequently.  I just love these
discussions and learning about new parts and ways to do things.

A big thank you to everyone sharing info and a big thank you to the
tireless efforts by the developers.

Mark


On Thu, Oct 15, 2020 at 10:02 AM Chris Albertson 
wrote:

> forgot the link https://www.pololu.com/product/705   This is different
> because the Polulu version has a MOSFET to protect from connecting the
> power supply backward.  This likey matters more in battery-driven
> projects.
>
> But really they are all the same H-Bridge.  Just buy one rated for the
> volts and amps you need.
>
>

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Re: [Emc-users] driver for a DC motor for a BS-1.

[Gene Heskett]

On Thursday 15 October 2020 14:01:09 Chris Albertson wrote:

> Not really newer, just different specs.   The "2" version goes up to
> only 16 volt and is used for automotive motors powered from 12 lead
> acid batteries.  The "3" has a higher voltage rating.   I think some
> other slight differences too.
>
> What you are really doing here is building a DIY servo motor.  An
> H-bridge and PWM are used to drive a quadrature encoder to the desired
> position and rate.  The nest question is "Where to attach the
> encoder?"   Placing it on the motor shaft gives best regulation and
> control of speed but placing it on the faceplate removes all the
> backlash

This motor is itself a worm drive, with surprisingly low backlash, so any 
backlash considerations will be in the crappy Chinese machining of the 
BS-1 clone.  Having had it apart already to clean the manufacturing 
swarf out of it, I was rather disappointed to see the worm and bull gear 
appeared to be stock off the shelf items, with no attempt to fit one to 
the other.  So the backlash runs from dragging to nearly 1.5 degrees 
depending on the angle, just from that.

At the price and heft, 90+ kg by the time I mount this motor on it, I 
expected better than that. Running it dragging might wear it in better.  
The question then becomes "are you breaking it in" or are you wearing it 
out :-(

> On Thu, Oct 15, 2020 at 10:43 AM Thaddeus Waldner 
>
> wrote:
> > I see that some of these use the
> > VNH2SP30 and some use the
> > VNH3SP30.


Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-users] driver for a DC motor for a BS-1.

[Chris Albertson]

Not really newer, just different specs.   The "2" version goes up to only
16 volt and is used for automotive motors powered from 12 lead acid
batteries.  The "3" has a higher voltage rating.   I think some other
slight differences too.

What you are really doing here is building a DIY servo motor.  An H-bridge
and PWM are used to drive a quadrature encoder to the desired position and
rate.  The nest question is "Where to attach the encoder?"   Placing it on
the motor shaft gives best regulation and control of speed but placing it
on the faceplate removes all the backlash

On Thu, Oct 15, 2020 at 10:43 AM Thaddeus Waldner 
wrote:

> I see that some of these use the
> VNH2SP30 and some use the
> VNH3SP30.
>
> Is one of them a newer revision of the same chip?
>
> > On Oct 15, 2020, at 12:02 PM, Chris Albertson 
> wrote:
> >
> > forgot the link https://www.pololu.com/product/705 <
> https://www.pololu.com/product/705>   This is different
> > because the Polulu version has a MOSFET to protect from connecting the
> > power supply backward.  This likey matters more in battery-driven
> > projects.
> >
> > But really they are all the same H-Bridge.  Just buy one rated for the
> > volts and amps you need.
> >
> > On Thu, Oct 15, 2020 at 9:55 AM Chris Albertson <
> albertson.ch...@gmail.com >
> > wrote:
> >
> >> Gene just Google the part number "VNH3SP30".   Polulu has them.  It is
> in
> >> fact my "go to" driver.  These were developed for automotive use for
> things
> >> like driver seat adjustment motors.
> >>
> >> Polulu's version of this has reverse voltage protection but they
> seriously
> >> de-rate the chip.   Just read the datasheet that is linked from their
> site.
> >>
> >> Here is the way I used these...
> >> I buy a slightly different version of the chip that comes on an
> >> "Arduio Sheild"  ebay link
> >> <
> https://www.ebay.com/i/401089386943?chn=ps&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-117182-37290-0&mkcid=2&itemid=401089386943&targetid=934793863816&device=c&mktype=pla&googleloc=9031026&poi=&campaignid=10877149888&mkgroupid=107912403075&rlsatarget=aud-622524042918:pla-934793863816&abcId=9300400&merchantid=101638797&gclid=CjwKCAjw5p_8BRBUEiwAPpJO6-QTPa9wyIxLjU-wVv6qq8PaY8DUPaxrZw7TRhXg8XKzfNEiapIrIhoCidAQAvD_BwE
> >
> >> Then I buy a Nucleo board from STM www.digikey.com/...NUCLEO-F401RE
> >> <
> https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/stmicroelectronics/NUCLEO-F401RE/4695525?WT.mc_id=frommaker.io
> >
> >> These mate together with a bunch of 0.1" header pins.
> >>
> >> With some software in the STM32 I now have a USB connected dual motor
> >> driver that can handle up to about 20 amps peak and 12 A continuously
> The
> >> control PID loops run on the STM32 and I only have to send speed or
> >> position commands over the USB cable.  It would be about as easy to
> >> assemble an Ethernet or SPI connected motor controller from these same
> >> parts. The stack-up is a little bulky but it is so easy to do and
> cheap
> >> I can put up with the excess cubic volume.
> >>
> >>
> >> On Thu, Oct 15, 2020 at 9:12 AM Gene Heskett 
> wrote:
> >>
> >>> On Thursday 15 October 2020 08:32:07 Roland Jollivet wrote:
> >>>
>  Maybe this is good for you, if available locally;
> 
> 
> https://www.olimex.com/Products/Robot-CNC-Parts/MotorDrivers/BB-VNH3SP
>  30/open-source-hardware
> 
> >>> I give up, none of the 3 USA distributors are carrying that item.
> >>>
>  On Wed, 14 Oct 2020 at 22:42, Gene Heskett 
> >>> wrote:
> > After it finally was delivered, testing looks good but now I need a
> > controller, smaller and lower voltage than one of Jons pwm-servo's.
> >
> > This motor supposedly turns 220 rpms no load with 24 volts applied.
> >
> > It has an encoder on the rear which is making a 5.4khz quadrature
> > signal when its running free, out of 4 wires, no index which is fine
> > as I'll put a switch on the BS-1 for a home/index anyway.
> >
> > This motor draws 4 amps at max rated 100 watt input.
> > No clue what the LRA amps is but it does jump pretty good getting
> > started so I'd expect startup in-rush to be at least 10 amps.
> >
> > I'd like to control its position like a common rotary servo axis, so
> > what do we have in our linuxcnc toolbox that looks like a bi-dir pwn
> > controlled twin H bridge to run a 24volt brushed PMDC motor with a
> > 10 amp in-rush as if it were a servo?
> >
> > Thanks all.
> >
> > Cheers, Gene Heskett
> > --
> > "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
> > soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
> > -Ed Howdershelt (Author)
> > If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law
> > respectable. - Louis D. Brandeis
> > Genes Web page 
> >
> >
> > ___
> > Emc-users mailing list
> > E

Re: [Emc-users] driver for a DC motor for a BS-1.

[Gene Heskett]

On Thursday 15 October 2020 12:55:16 Chris Albertson wrote:

> Gene just Google the part number "VNH3SP30".   Polulu has them.  It is
> in fact my "go to" driver.  These were developed for automotive use
> for things like driver seat adjustment motors.
>
> Polulu's version of this has reverse voltage protection but they
> seriously de-rate the chip.   Just read the datasheet that is linked
> from their site.
>
> Here is the way I used these...
> I buy a slightly different version of the chip that comes on an
> "Arduio Sheild"  ebay link
> 1-117182-37290-0&mkcid=2&itemid=401089386943&targetid=934793863816&devi
>ce=c&mktype=pla&googleloc=9031026&poi=&campaignid=10877149888&mkgroupid
>=107912403075&rlsatarget=aud-622524042918:pla-934793863816&abcId=930040
>0&merchantid=101638797&gclid=CjwKCAjw5p_8BRBUEiwAPpJO6-QTPa9wyIxLjU-wVv
>6qq8PaY8DUPaxrZw7TRhXg8XKzfNEiapIrIhoCidAQAvD_BwE> Then I buy a Nucleo
> board from STM www.digikey.com/...NUCLEO-F401RE
> F401RE/4695525?WT.mc_id=frommaker.io> These mate together with a bunch
> of 0.1" header pins.
>
This latter link might be the cats purr, but I didn't see any links that 
tell me how to put it to use as I've never dealt with the stm32.

Since I'll have the drivers in a week, and already have the 30 some page 
technical pdf, I'll see what else I need by then. i/o pins to drive it I 
have plenty of. usb is not "real time", so that path is not one I would 
normally take anyway, although with usb3, the speed objection is largely 
nullified. However, the only usb3 stuff is on an rpi4, 15 feet away and 
tied up with SSD's. That old dell, where this is going, is usb2, so are 
the D525MW's I have 2 of.

> With some software in the STM32 I now have a USB connected dual motor
> driver that can handle up to about 20 amps peak and 12 A continuously 
> The control PID loops run on the STM32 and I only have to send speed
> or position commands over the USB cable.  It would be about as easy to
> assemble an Ethernet or SPI connected motor controller from these same
> parts. The stack-up is a little bulky but it is so easy to do and
> cheap I can put up with the excess cubic volume.
>
> On Thu, Oct 15, 2020 at 9:12 AM Gene Heskett  
wrote:
> > On Thursday 15 October 2020 08:32:07 Roland Jollivet wrote:
> > > Maybe this is good for you, if available locally;
> > >
> > > https://www.olimex.com/Products/Robot-CNC-Parts/MotorDrivers/BB-VN
> > >H3SP 30/open-source-hardware
> >
> > I give up, none of the 3 USA distributors are carrying that item.
> >
> > > On Wed, 14 Oct 2020 at 22:42, Gene Heskett 
> >
> > wrote:
> > > > After it finally was delivered, testing looks good but now I
> > > > need a controller, smaller and lower voltage than one of Jons
> > > > pwm-servo's.
> > > >
> > > > This motor supposedly turns 220 rpms no load with 24 volts
> > > > applied.
> > > >
> > > > It has an encoder on the rear which is making a 5.4khz
> > > > quadrature signal when its running free, out of 4 wires, no
> > > > index which is fine as I'll put a switch on the BS-1 for a
> > > > home/index anyway.
> > > >
> > > > This motor draws 4 amps at max rated 100 watt input.
> > > > No clue what the LRA amps is but it does jump pretty good
> > > > getting started so I'd expect startup in-rush to be at least 10
> > > > amps.
> > > >
> > > > I'd like to control its position like a common rotary servo
> > > > axis, so what do we have in our linuxcnc toolbox that looks like
> > > > a bi-dir pwn controlled twin H bridge to run a 24volt brushed
> > > > PMDC motor with a 10 amp in-rush as if it were a servo?
[...]
Thanks Chris.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-users] driver for a DC motor for a BS-1.

[Thaddeus Waldner]

I see that some of these use the 
VNH2SP30 and some use the
VNH3SP30.

Is one of them a newer revision of the same chip?

> On Oct 15, 2020, at 12:02 PM, Chris Albertson  
> wrote:
> 
> forgot the link https://www.pololu.com/product/705 
>    This is different
> because the Polulu version has a MOSFET to protect from connecting the
> power supply backward.  This likey matters more in battery-driven
> projects.
> 
> But really they are all the same H-Bridge.  Just buy one rated for the
> volts and amps you need.
> 
> On Thu, Oct 15, 2020 at 9:55 AM Chris Albertson  >
> wrote:
> 
>> Gene just Google the part number "VNH3SP30".   Polulu has them.  It is in
>> fact my "go to" driver.  These were developed for automotive use for things
>> like driver seat adjustment motors.
>> 
>> Polulu's version of this has reverse voltage protection but they seriously
>> de-rate the chip.   Just read the datasheet that is linked from their site.
>> 
>> Here is the way I used these...
>> I buy a slightly different version of the chip that comes on an
>> "Arduio Sheild"  ebay link
>> 
>> Then I buy a Nucleo board from STM www.digikey.com/...NUCLEO-F401RE
>> 
>> These mate together with a bunch of 0.1" header pins.
>> 
>> With some software in the STM32 I now have a USB connected dual motor
>> driver that can handle up to about 20 amps peak and 12 A continuously  The
>> control PID loops run on the STM32 and I only have to send speed or
>> position commands over the USB cable.  It would be about as easy to
>> assemble an Ethernet or SPI connected motor controller from these same
>> parts. The stack-up is a little bulky but it is so easy to do and cheap
>> I can put up with the excess cubic volume.
>> 
>> 
>> On Thu, Oct 15, 2020 at 9:12 AM Gene Heskett  wrote:
>> 
>>> On Thursday 15 October 2020 08:32:07 Roland Jollivet wrote:
>>> 
 Maybe this is good for you, if available locally;
 
 https://www.olimex.com/Products/Robot-CNC-Parts/MotorDrivers/BB-VNH3SP
 30/open-source-hardware
 
>>> I give up, none of the 3 USA distributors are carrying that item.
>>> 
 On Wed, 14 Oct 2020 at 22:42, Gene Heskett 
>>> wrote:
> After it finally was delivered, testing looks good but now I need a
> controller, smaller and lower voltage than one of Jons pwm-servo's.
> 
> This motor supposedly turns 220 rpms no load with 24 volts applied.
> 
> It has an encoder on the rear which is making a 5.4khz quadrature
> signal when its running free, out of 4 wires, no index which is fine
> as I'll put a switch on the BS-1 for a home/index anyway.
> 
> This motor draws 4 amps at max rated 100 watt input.
> No clue what the LRA amps is but it does jump pretty good getting
> started so I'd expect startup in-rush to be at least 10 amps.
> 
> I'd like to control its position like a common rotary servo axis, so
> what do we have in our linuxcnc toolbox that looks like a bi-dir pwn
> controlled twin H bridge to run a 24volt brushed PMDC motor with a
> 10 amp in-rush as if it were a servo?
> 
> Thanks all.
> 
> Cheers, Gene Heskett
> --
> "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
> soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
> -Ed Howdershelt (Author)
> If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law
> respectable. - Louis D. Brandeis
> Genes Web page 
> 
> 
> ___
> Emc-users mailing list
> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
 
 ___
 Emc-users mailing list
 Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
 https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Cheers, Gene Heskett
>>> --
>>> "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
>>> soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
>>> -Ed Howdershelt (Author)
>>> If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
>>> - Louis D. Brandeis
>>> Genes Web page 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> ___
>>> Emc-users mailing list
>>> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> 
>> Chris Albe

Re: [Emc-users] driver for a DC motor for a BS-1.

[Chris Albertson]

forgot the link https://www.pololu.com/product/705   This is different
because the Polulu version has a MOSFET to protect from connecting the
power supply backward.  This likey matters more in battery-driven
projects.

But really they are all the same H-Bridge.  Just buy one rated for the
volts and amps you need.

On Thu, Oct 15, 2020 at 9:55 AM Chris Albertson 
wrote:

> Gene just Google the part number "VNH3SP30".   Polulu has them.  It is in
> fact my "go to" driver.  These were developed for automotive use for things
> like driver seat adjustment motors.
>
> Polulu's version of this has reverse voltage protection but they seriously
> de-rate the chip.   Just read the datasheet that is linked from their site.
>
> Here is the way I used these...
> I buy a slightly different version of the chip that comes on an
> "Arduio Sheild"  ebay link
> 
> Then I buy a Nucleo board from STM www.digikey.com/...NUCLEO-F401RE
> 
> These mate together with a bunch of 0.1" header pins.
>
> With some software in the STM32 I now have a USB connected dual motor
> driver that can handle up to about 20 amps peak and 12 A continuously  The
> control PID loops run on the STM32 and I only have to send speed or
> position commands over the USB cable.  It would be about as easy to
> assemble an Ethernet or SPI connected motor controller from these same
> parts. The stack-up is a little bulky but it is so easy to do and cheap
> I can put up with the excess cubic volume.
>
>
> On Thu, Oct 15, 2020 at 9:12 AM Gene Heskett  wrote:
>
>> On Thursday 15 October 2020 08:32:07 Roland Jollivet wrote:
>>
>> > Maybe this is good for you, if available locally;
>> >
>> > https://www.olimex.com/Products/Robot-CNC-Parts/MotorDrivers/BB-VNH3SP
>> >30/open-source-hardware
>> >
>> I give up, none of the 3 USA distributors are carrying that item.
>>
>> > On Wed, 14 Oct 2020 at 22:42, Gene Heskett 
>> wrote:
>> > > After it finally was delivered, testing looks good but now I need a
>> > > controller, smaller and lower voltage than one of Jons pwm-servo's.
>> > >
>> > > This motor supposedly turns 220 rpms no load with 24 volts applied.
>> > >
>> > > It has an encoder on the rear which is making a 5.4khz quadrature
>> > > signal when its running free, out of 4 wires, no index which is fine
>> > > as I'll put a switch on the BS-1 for a home/index anyway.
>> > >
>> > > This motor draws 4 amps at max rated 100 watt input.
>> > > No clue what the LRA amps is but it does jump pretty good getting
>> > > started so I'd expect startup in-rush to be at least 10 amps.
>> > >
>> > > I'd like to control its position like a common rotary servo axis, so
>> > > what do we have in our linuxcnc toolbox that looks like a bi-dir pwn
>> > > controlled twin H bridge to run a 24volt brushed PMDC motor with a
>> > > 10 amp in-rush as if it were a servo?
>> > >
>> > > Thanks all.
>> > >
>> > > Cheers, Gene Heskett
>> > > --
>> > > "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
>> > >  soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
>> > > -Ed Howdershelt (Author)
>> > > If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law
>> > > respectable. - Louis D. Brandeis
>> > > Genes Web page 
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > ___
>> > > Emc-users mailing list
>> > > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
>> > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>> >
>> > ___
>> > Emc-users mailing list
>> > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
>> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>>
>>
>> Cheers, Gene Heskett
>> --
>> "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
>>  soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
>> -Ed Howdershelt (Author)
>> If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
>>  - Louis D. Brandeis
>> Genes Web page 
>>
>>
>> ___
>> Emc-users mailing list
>> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>>
>
>
> --
>
> Chris Albertson
> Redondo Beach, California
>


-- 

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California

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Re: [Emc-users] driver for a DC motor for a BS-1.

[Chris Albertson]

Gene just Google the part number "VNH3SP30".   Polulu has them.  It is in
fact my "go to" driver.  These were developed for automotive use for things
like driver seat adjustment motors.

Polulu's version of this has reverse voltage protection but they seriously
de-rate the chip.   Just read the datasheet that is linked from their site.

Here is the way I used these...
I buy a slightly different version of the chip that comes on an
"Arduio Sheild"  ebay link

Then I buy a Nucleo board from STM www.digikey.com/...NUCLEO-F401RE

These mate together with a bunch of 0.1" header pins.

With some software in the STM32 I now have a USB connected dual motor
driver that can handle up to about 20 amps peak and 12 A continuously  The
control PID loops run on the STM32 and I only have to send speed or
position commands over the USB cable.  It would be about as easy to
assemble an Ethernet or SPI connected motor controller from these same
parts. The stack-up is a little bulky but it is so easy to do and cheap
I can put up with the excess cubic volume.


On Thu, Oct 15, 2020 at 9:12 AM Gene Heskett  wrote:

> On Thursday 15 October 2020 08:32:07 Roland Jollivet wrote:
>
> > Maybe this is good for you, if available locally;
> >
> > https://www.olimex.com/Products/Robot-CNC-Parts/MotorDrivers/BB-VNH3SP
> >30/open-source-hardware
> >
> I give up, none of the 3 USA distributors are carrying that item.
>
> > On Wed, 14 Oct 2020 at 22:42, Gene Heskett 
> wrote:
> > > After it finally was delivered, testing looks good but now I need a
> > > controller, smaller and lower voltage than one of Jons pwm-servo's.
> > >
> > > This motor supposedly turns 220 rpms no load with 24 volts applied.
> > >
> > > It has an encoder on the rear which is making a 5.4khz quadrature
> > > signal when its running free, out of 4 wires, no index which is fine
> > > as I'll put a switch on the BS-1 for a home/index anyway.
> > >
> > > This motor draws 4 amps at max rated 100 watt input.
> > > No clue what the LRA amps is but it does jump pretty good getting
> > > started so I'd expect startup in-rush to be at least 10 amps.
> > >
> > > I'd like to control its position like a common rotary servo axis, so
> > > what do we have in our linuxcnc toolbox that looks like a bi-dir pwn
> > > controlled twin H bridge to run a 24volt brushed PMDC motor with a
> > > 10 amp in-rush as if it were a servo?
> > >
> > > Thanks all.
> > >
> > > Cheers, Gene Heskett
> > > --
> > > "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
> > >  soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
> > > -Ed Howdershelt (Author)
> > > If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law
> > > respectable. - Louis D. Brandeis
> > > Genes Web page 
> > >
> > >
> > > ___
> > > Emc-users mailing list
> > > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> >
> > ___
> > Emc-users mailing list
> > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>
>
> Cheers, Gene Heskett
> --
> "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
>  soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
> -Ed Howdershelt (Author)
> If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
>  - Louis D. Brandeis
> Genes Web page 
>
>
> ___
> Emc-users mailing list
> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>


-- 

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California

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Re: [Emc-users] driver for a DC motor for a BS-1.

[Gene Heskett]

On Thursday 15 October 2020 12:28:49 Thaddeus Waldner wrote:

> Here’s the same item on eBay for 12 bucks plus shipping from Nevada:
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Full-H-Bridge-Motor-Driver-Board-VNH3SP30-30A
>-5-5V-36V-DC/184440701488?hash=item2af185c230:g:1SoAAOSwdvlfWS3F
> A-5-5V-36V-DC/184440701488?hash=item2af185c230:g:1SoAAOSwdvlfWS3F>
>
Thank you, 2 ordered.

> > On Oct 15, 2020, at 11:09 AM, Gene Heskett 
> > wrote:
> >
> > On Thursday 15 October 2020 08:32:07 Roland Jollivet wrote:
> >> Maybe this is good for you, if available locally;
> >>
> >> https://www.olimex.com/Products/Robot-CNC-Parts/MotorDrivers/BB-VNH
> >>3SP
> >>  >>H3SP> 30/open-source-hardware
> >
> > I give up, none of the 3 USA distributors are carrying that item.
> >
> >> On Wed, 14 Oct 2020 at 22:42, Gene Heskett 
> >
> > wrote:
> >>> After it finally was delivered, testing looks good but now I need
> >>> a controller, smaller and lower voltage than one of Jons
> >>> pwm-servo's.
> >>>
> >>> This motor supposedly turns 220 rpms no load with 24 volts
> >>> applied.
> >>>
> >>> It has an encoder on the rear which is making a 5.4khz quadrature
> >>> signal when its running free, out of 4 wires, no index which is
> >>> fine as I'll put a switch on the BS-1 for a home/index anyway.
> >>>
> >>> This motor draws 4 amps at max rated 100 watt input.
> >>> No clue what the LRA amps is but it does jump pretty good getting
> >>> started so I'd expect startup in-rush to be at least 10 amps.
> >>>
> >>> I'd like to control its position like a common rotary servo axis,
> >>> so what do we have in our linuxcnc toolbox that looks like a
> >>> bi-dir pwn controlled twin H bridge to run a 24volt brushed PMDC
> >>> motor with a 10 amp in-rush as if it were a servo?
> >>>
> >>> Thanks all.
> >>>
> >>> Cheers, Gene Heskett
> >>> --
> >>> "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
> >>> soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
> >>> -Ed Howdershelt (Author)
> >>> If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law
> >>> respectable. - Louis D. Brandeis
> >>> Genes Web page 
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> ___
> >>> Emc-users mailing list
> >>> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> >>
> >> ___
> >> Emc-users mailing list
> >> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> >
> > Cheers, Gene Heskett
> > --
> > "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
> > soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
> > -Ed Howdershelt (Author)
> > If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law
> > respectable. - Louis D. Brandeis
> > Genes Web page  > >
> >
> >
> > ___
> > Emc-users mailing list
> > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > 
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> > 
>
> ___
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Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-users] driver for a DC motor for a BS-1.

[Thaddeus Waldner]

Here’s the same item on eBay for 12 bucks plus shipping from Nevada:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Full-H-Bridge-Motor-Driver-Board-VNH3SP30-30A-5-5V-36V-DC/184440701488?hash=item2af185c230:g:1SoAAOSwdvlfWS3F
 





> On Oct 15, 2020, at 11:09 AM, Gene Heskett  wrote:
> 
> On Thursday 15 October 2020 08:32:07 Roland Jollivet wrote:
> 
>> Maybe this is good for you, if available locally;
>> 
>> https://www.olimex.com/Products/Robot-CNC-Parts/MotorDrivers/BB-VNH3SP 
>> 
>> 30/open-source-hardware
>> 
> I give up, none of the 3 USA distributors are carrying that item.
> 
>> On Wed, 14 Oct 2020 at 22:42, Gene Heskett  
> wrote:
>>> After it finally was delivered, testing looks good but now I need a
>>> controller, smaller and lower voltage than one of Jons pwm-servo's.
>>> 
>>> This motor supposedly turns 220 rpms no load with 24 volts applied.
>>> 
>>> It has an encoder on the rear which is making a 5.4khz quadrature
>>> signal when its running free, out of 4 wires, no index which is fine
>>> as I'll put a switch on the BS-1 for a home/index anyway.
>>> 
>>> This motor draws 4 amps at max rated 100 watt input.
>>> No clue what the LRA amps is but it does jump pretty good getting
>>> started so I'd expect startup in-rush to be at least 10 amps.
>>> 
>>> I'd like to control its position like a common rotary servo axis, so
>>> what do we have in our linuxcnc toolbox that looks like a bi-dir pwn
>>> controlled twin H bridge to run a 24volt brushed PMDC motor with a
>>> 10 amp in-rush as if it were a servo?
>>> 
>>> Thanks all.
>>> 
>>> Cheers, Gene Heskett
>>> --
>>> "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
>>> soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
>>> -Ed Howdershelt (Author)
>>> If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law
>>> respectable. - Louis D. Brandeis
>>> Genes Web page 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> ___
>>> Emc-users mailing list
>>> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>> 
>> ___
>> Emc-users mailing list
>> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> 
> 
> Cheers, Gene Heskett
> -- 
> "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
> soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
> -Ed Howdershelt (Author)
> If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
> - Louis D. Brandeis
> Genes Web page  >
> 
> 
> ___
> Emc-users mailing list
> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net 
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users 
> 

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Re: [Emc-users] driver for a DC motor for a BS-1.

[Gene Heskett]

On Thursday 15 October 2020 08:32:07 Roland Jollivet wrote:

> Maybe this is good for you, if available locally;
>
> https://www.olimex.com/Products/Robot-CNC-Parts/MotorDrivers/BB-VNH3SP
>30/open-source-hardware
>
I give up, none of the 3 USA distributors are carrying that item.

> On Wed, 14 Oct 2020 at 22:42, Gene Heskett  
wrote:
> > After it finally was delivered, testing looks good but now I need a
> > controller, smaller and lower voltage than one of Jons pwm-servo's.
> >
> > This motor supposedly turns 220 rpms no load with 24 volts applied.
> >
> > It has an encoder on the rear which is making a 5.4khz quadrature
> > signal when its running free, out of 4 wires, no index which is fine
> > as I'll put a switch on the BS-1 for a home/index anyway.
> >
> > This motor draws 4 amps at max rated 100 watt input.
> > No clue what the LRA amps is but it does jump pretty good getting
> > started so I'd expect startup in-rush to be at least 10 amps.
> >
> > I'd like to control its position like a common rotary servo axis, so
> > what do we have in our linuxcnc toolbox that looks like a bi-dir pwn
> > controlled twin H bridge to run a 24volt brushed PMDC motor with a
> > 10 amp in-rush as if it were a servo?
> >
> > Thanks all.
> >
> > Cheers, Gene Heskett
> > --
> > "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
> >  soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
> > -Ed Howdershelt (Author)
> > If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law
> > respectable. - Louis D. Brandeis
> > Genes Web page 
> >
> >
> > ___
> > Emc-users mailing list
> > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>
> ___
> Emc-users mailing list
> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users


Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-users] driver for a DC motor for a BS-1.

[Gene Heskett]

On Thursday 15 October 2020 08:32:07 Roland Jollivet wrote:

> Maybe this is good for you, if available locally;
>
> https://www.olimex.com/Products/Robot-CNC-Parts/MotorDrivers/BB-VNH3SP
>30/open-source-hardware

I don't believe it is. paypall refuses to let me in without a valid smart 
phone number, one that can rx text messages, and I don't have such a 
critter.  It never showed me the USD price either. 36.98 EUR for 2 of 
them.

I wonder if they have a US rep?  It looks to be about ideal.
>
> On Wed, 14 Oct 2020 at 22:42, Gene Heskett  
wrote:
> > After it finally was delivered, testing looks good but now I need a
> > controller, smaller and lower voltage than one of Jons pwm-servo's.
> >
> > This motor supposedly turns 220 rpms no load with 24 volts applied.
> >
> > It has an encoder on the rear which is making a 5.4khz quadrature
> > signal when its running free, out of 4 wires, no index which is fine
> > as I'll put a switch on the BS-1 for a home/index anyway.
> >
> > This motor draws 4 amps at max rated 100 watt input.
> > No clue what the LRA amps is but it does jump pretty good getting
> > started so I'd expect startup in-rush to be at least 10 amps.
> >
> > I'd like to control its position like a common rotary servo axis, so
> > what do we have in our linuxcnc toolbox that looks like a bi-dir pwn
> > controlled twin H bridge to run a 24volt brushed PMDC motor with a
> > 10 amp in-rush as if it were a servo?
> >
> > Thanks all.
> >
> > Cheers, Gene Heskett
> > --
> > "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
> >  soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
> > -Ed Howdershelt (Author)
> > If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law
> > respectable. - Louis D. Brandeis
> > Genes Web page 
> >
> >
> > ___
> > Emc-users mailing list
> > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>
> ___
> Emc-users mailing list
> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users


Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-users] driver for a DC motor for a BS-1.

[Gene Heskett]

On Wednesday 14 October 2020 17:20:46 Chris Albertson wrote:

> A good place to look for DC motor drivers is Polulu.  Here is what
> they have.   I bet you can use one from the "mid-power" section.
> https://www.pololu.com/category/11/brushed-dc-motor-drivers
>
> All of these take PWM and a few pins for forward, reverse brake. 
> These modern drivers are so good there can pass 20 amps with no heat
> sinks. MOSFETs have come a long way.   These drivers are really
> nothing more than an H-bridge but with a more sophisticated design
> that makes them very power efficient
>
> The lets say you pick the driver linked below.  What makes Polulu so
> nice to work with is (1) they are based in the US and (2) they provide
> a lot of documentations and links to more.   I'm betting the driver
> below could work for you. $10 is not a bad price.
> https://www.pololu.com/product/2999
>
> The way I use these is with a microcontroller, typically STM32.  The
> software reads the encoder signal and drivers the PWM using a PID
> loop.  A program on a large linux computer sends the value for the PID
> loop's set point.  Very much like what happens with LCNC.   To use
> one of these with LCNC, you run the PID loop in HAL with PWM output
> going to the driver boardOne thing, watch the voltage on the
> control pins 3.3 or 5 volts. Some are "both" and easier to use.
>
It looks a bit complex to run with linuxcnc, but also looks like it could 
work in single mode to run this motor. Not to mention its on-shore so 
shipping should be quicker.  And I'm damned sick of being told 14 days 
that turns into 14 weeks.  Thats about how long its taken to get this 
motor from Chino kalipornia to Weston WV.  The motor however, looks like 
quality stuff, and runs very quietly.
 
> On Wed, Oct 14, 2020 at 1:42 PM Gene Heskett  
wrote:
> > After it finally was delivered, testing looks good but now I need a
> > controller, smaller and lower voltage than one of Jons pwm-servo's.
> >
> > This motor supposedly turns 220 rpms no load with 24 volts applied.
> >
> > It has an encoder on the rear which is making a 5.4khz quadrature
> > signal when its running free, out of 4 wires, no index which is fine
> > as I'll put a switch on the BS-1 for a home/index anyway.
> >
> > This motor draws 4 amps at max rated 100 watt input.
> > No clue what the LRA amps is but it does jump pretty good getting
> > started so I'd expect startup in-rush to be at least 10 amps.
> >
> > I'd like to control its position like a common rotary servo axis, so
> > what do we have in our linuxcnc toolbox that looks like a bi-dir pwn
> > controlled twin H bridge to run a 24volt brushed PMDC motor with a
> > 10 amp in-rush as if it were a servo?
> >
> > Thanks all.
> >
> > Cheers, Gene Heskett
> > --
> > "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
> >  soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
> > -Ed Howdershelt (Author)
> > If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law
> > respectable. - Louis D. Brandeis
> > Genes Web page 
> >
> >
> > ___
> > Emc-users mailing list
> > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users


Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-users] driver for a DC motor for a BS-1.

[Gene Heskett]

On Wednesday 14 October 2020 17:48:06 Andy Pugh wrote:

> > On 14 Oct 2020, at 21:42, Gene Heskett  wrote:
> >
> > so what
> > do we have in our linuxcnc toolbox that looks like a bi-dir pwn
> > controlled twin H bridge to run a 24volt brushed PMDC motor
>
> Maybe 7i40? But what’s the problem with using the Pico one?
>
15x or 12.5x the polulu's cost, mainly. Its a great unit, I'm useing 2 of 
them now, but with supplies capable of supplying 1500+ watts CCS.
>
>
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Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-users] driver for a DC motor for a BS-1.

[Andy Pugh]

> On 14 Oct 2020, at 21:42, Gene Heskett  wrote:
> 
> so what 
> do we have in our linuxcnc toolbox that looks like a bi-dir pwn 
> controlled twin H bridge to run a 24volt brushed PMDC motor

Maybe 7i40? But what’s the problem with using the Pico one?



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Re: [Emc-users] driver for a DC motor for a BS-1.

[Chris Albertson]

A good place to look for DC motor drivers is Polulu.  Here is what they
have.   I bet you can use one from the "mid-power" section.
https://www.pololu.com/category/11/brushed-dc-motor-drivers

All of these take PWM and a few pins for forward, reverse brake.  These
modern drivers are so good there can pass 20 amps with no heat sinks.
MOSFETs have come a long way.   These drivers are really nothing more than
an H-bridge but with a more sophisticated design that makes them very power
efficient

The lets say you pick the driver linked below.  What makes Polulu so nice
to work with is (1) they are based in the US and (2) they provide a lot of
documentations and links to more.   I'm betting the driver below could work
for you. $10 is not a bad price.
https://www.pololu.com/product/2999

The way I use these is with a microcontroller, typically STM32.  The
software reads the encoder signal and drivers the PWM using a PID loop.  A
program on a large linux computer sends the value for the PID loop's set
point.  Very much like what happens with LCNC.   To use one of these
with LCNC, you run the PID loop in HAL with PWM output going to the driver
boardOne thing, watch the voltage on the control pins 3.3 or 5 volts.
Some are "both" and easier to use.




On Wed, Oct 14, 2020 at 1:42 PM Gene Heskett  wrote:

> After it finally was delivered, testing looks good but now I need a
> controller, smaller and lower voltage than one of Jons pwm-servo's.
>
> This motor supposedly turns 220 rpms no load with 24 volts applied.
>
> It has an encoder on the rear which is making a 5.4khz quadrature signal
> when its running free, out of 4 wires, no index which is fine as I'll
> put a switch on the BS-1 for a home/index anyway.
>
> This motor draws 4 amps at max rated 100 watt input.
> No clue what the LRA amps is but it does jump pretty good getting started
> so I'd expect startup in-rush to be at least 10 amps.
>
> I'd like to control its position like a common rotary servo axis, so what
> do we have in our linuxcnc toolbox that looks like a bi-dir pwn
> controlled twin H bridge to run a 24volt brushed PMDC motor with a 10
> amp in-rush as if it were a servo?
>
> Thanks all.
>
> Cheers, Gene Heskett
> --
> "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
>  soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
> -Ed Howdershelt (Author)
> If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
>  - Louis D. Brandeis
> Genes Web page 
>
>
> ___
> Emc-users mailing list
> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>


-- 

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California

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