Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence
On 10 Sep 2012, at 21:58, meekerdb wrote: On 9/10/2012 7:57 AM, benjayk wrote: Bruno Marchal wrote: To use this argument, you need to postulate that the physical universe exists and is describe by a quantum garden of Eden, that is a infinite quantum pattern, and that *you* are that pattern. In that case, you are just working in a different theory than the comp theory, and are out of the scope of my expertize. But then develop your theory. Nope. I am not saying that is the case (though I do believe that such entanglement exists), I am just saying that COMP does not exclude that possibility. Whether or not some digital substitution exists, what is required to correctly implement it (which also is part of yourself) may itself be not be emulable in the sense that your reasoning requires. I remind you, COMP does not say we are digital, it says that a correctly implemented digital substitution may substitute my current brain/ body. It does not say that this can't require some non-digital component (you are still getting an artificial brain/body). I think this is why Bruno sometimes allows that the level of substitution may not only be low (molecular, quantum,...) but also extensive: local Earth envrionment, galaxy, universe,... But when you consider extensive 'substitution' it just turns into saying the universe is computable. Only in the case the substitution is so low and so extensive that you need the whole universe (observable or not). Now, if that is the case, that has do be proved in Z1* or justified from some arithmetical variant of G and G* (self-reference logic). Even if that is true, which I doubt personally, physics is still an internal emerging pattern in arithmetic. Bruno http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence
Bruno Marchal wrote: On 08 Sep 2012, at 16:08, benjayk wrote: Bruno Marchal wrote: On 07 Sep 2012, at 14:22, benjayk wrote: Bruno Marchal wrote: On 06 Sep 2012, at 13:31, benjayk wrote: Quantum effects beyond individual brains (suggested by psi) can't be computed as well: No matter what I compute in my brain, this doesn't entangle it with other brains since computation is classical. The UD emulates all quantum computer, as they do not violate Church Thesis. I am not talking about quantum computers, which are not entangled with their surroundings. I am talking about systems that are entangled to other systems. This is just lowering the comp level of substitution. It does not change the reasoning, thanks to the use of the notion of generalized brain. It does, because you can't simulate indefinite entanglement. No matter how many entangled systems you simulate, you are always missing the entanglement of this combined system to another (which may be as crucial as the system itself, because it may lead to a very different unfoldment of events). To use this argument, you need to postulate that the physical universe exists and is describe by a quantum garden of Eden, that is a infinite quantum pattern, and that *you* are that pattern. In that case, you are just working in a different theory than the comp theory, and are out of the scope of my expertize. But then develop your theory. Nope. I am not saying that is the case (though I do believe that such entanglement exists), I am just saying that COMP does not exclude that possibility. Whether or not some digital substitution exists, what is required to correctly implement it (which also is part of yourself) may itself be not be emulable in the sense that your reasoning requires. I remind you, COMP does not say we are digital, it says that a correctly implemented digital substitution may substitute my current brain/body. It does not say that this can't require some non-digital component (you are still getting an artificial brain/body). benjayk -- View this message in context: http://old.nabble.com/Simple-proof-that-our-intelligence-transcends-that-of-computers-tp34330236p34413398.html Sent from the Everything List mailing list archive at Nabble.com. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence
On 10 Sep 2012, at 16:57, benjayk wrote: Bruno Marchal wrote: On 08 Sep 2012, at 16:08, benjayk wrote: Bruno Marchal wrote: On 07 Sep 2012, at 14:22, benjayk wrote: Bruno Marchal wrote: On 06 Sep 2012, at 13:31, benjayk wrote: Quantum effects beyond individual brains (suggested by psi) can't be computed as well: No matter what I compute in my brain, this doesn't entangle it with other brains since computation is classical. The UD emulates all quantum computer, as they do not violate Church Thesis. I am not talking about quantum computers, which are not entangled with their surroundings. I am talking about systems that are entangled to other systems. This is just lowering the comp level of substitution. It does not change the reasoning, thanks to the use of the notion of generalized brain. It does, because you can't simulate indefinite entanglement. No matter how many entangled systems you simulate, you are always missing the entanglement of this combined system to another (which may be as crucial as the system itself, because it may lead to a very different unfoldment of events). To use this argument, you need to postulate that the physical universe exists and is describe by a quantum garden of Eden, that is a infinite quantum pattern, and that *you* are that pattern. In that case, you are just working in a different theory than the comp theory, and are out of the scope of my expertize. But then develop your theory. Nope. I am not saying that is the case (though I do believe that such entanglement exists), I am just saying that COMP does not exclude that possibility. ? Comp exclude infinite Eden. Whether or not some digital substitution exists, what is required to correctly implement it (which also is part of yourself) may itself be not be emulable in the sense that your reasoning requires. Indeed, it can't. I remind you, COMP does not say we are digital, it says that a correctly implemented digital substitution may substitute my current brain/body. OK. It does not say that this can't require some non-digital component (you are still getting an artificial brain/body). Indeed, that is a consequence of comp. Bruno benjayk -- View this message in context: http://old.nabble.com/Simple-proof-that-our-intelligence-transcends-that-of-computers-tp34330236p34413398.html Sent from the Everything List mailing list archive at Nabble.com. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en . http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence
On 9/10/2012 7:57 AM, benjayk wrote: Bruno Marchal wrote: On 08 Sep 2012, at 16:08, benjayk wrote: Bruno Marchal wrote: On 07 Sep 2012, at 14:22, benjayk wrote: Bruno Marchal wrote: On 06 Sep 2012, at 13:31, benjayk wrote: Quantum effects beyond individual brains (suggested by psi) can't be computed as well: No matter what I compute in my brain, this doesn't entangle it with other brains since computation is classical. The UD emulates all quantum computer, as they do not violate Church Thesis. I am not talking about quantum computers, which are not entangled with their surroundings. I am talking about systems that are entangled to other systems. This is just lowering the comp level of substitution. It does not change the reasoning, thanks to the use of the notion of generalized brain. It does, because you can't simulate indefinite entanglement. No matter how many entangled systems you simulate, you are always missing the entanglement of this combined system to another (which may be as crucial as the system itself, because it may lead to a very different unfoldment of events). To use this argument, you need to postulate that the physical universe exists and is describe by a quantum garden of Eden, that is a infinite quantum pattern, and that *you* are that pattern. In that case, you are just working in a different theory than the comp theory, and are out of the scope of my expertize. But then develop your theory. Nope. I am not saying that is the case (though I do believe that such entanglement exists), I am just saying that COMP does not exclude that possibility. Whether or not some digital substitution exists, what is required to correctly implement it (which also is part of yourself) may itself be not be emulable in the sense that your reasoning requires. I remind you, COMP does not say we are digital, it says that a correctly implemented digital substitution may substitute my current brain/body. It does not say that this can't require some non-digital component (you are still getting an artificial brain/body). I think this is why Bruno sometimes allows that the level of substitution may not only be low (molecular, quantum,...) but also extensive: local Earth envrionment, galaxy, universe,... But when you consider extensive 'substitution' it just turns into saying the universe is computable. Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence
On 08 Sep 2012, at 16:08, benjayk wrote: Bruno Marchal wrote: On 07 Sep 2012, at 14:22, benjayk wrote: Bruno Marchal wrote: On 06 Sep 2012, at 13:31, benjayk wrote: Quantum effects beyond individual brains (suggested by psi) can't be computed as well: No matter what I compute in my brain, this doesn't entangle it with other brains since computation is classical. The UD emulates all quantum computer, as they do not violate Church Thesis. I am not talking about quantum computers, which are not entangled with their surroundings. I am talking about systems that are entangled to other systems. This is just lowering the comp level of substitution. It does not change the reasoning, thanks to the use of the notion of generalized brain. It does, because you can't simulate indefinite entanglement. No matter how many entangled systems you simulate, you are always missing the entanglement of this combined system to another (which may be as crucial as the system itself, because it may lead to a very different unfoldment of events). To use this argument, you need to postulate that the physical universe exists and is describe by a quantum garden of Eden, that is a infinite quantum pattern, and that *you* are that pattern. In that case, you are just working in a different theory than the comp theory, and are out of the scope of my expertize. But then develop your theory. A practically digital substitution (which is assumed in COMP) could be entangled with its surroundings, which may be very different than the entanglement of a brain (or a generalized brain) with its surroundings. The substitution may not only fail because the person itself is not preserved, but also because the world was not preserved (the person would certainly complain to the doctor if the world suddenly is substantially different - if there is still a doctor left, that is). And if you say that we can simulate this entanglement as well, the entanglement of this system to outside systems may again lead to the emulation to be not correct at all from a broader view (etc...). At every step the emulation may actually become more false, because more of the multiverse/universe is changed. We can argue that all these things may not be relevant (though I think they are), but in any case it makes the reasoning shaky. Not at all. You might say arithmetic is false as it postulate that 0 has no predecessor, and we all know that 0 has a predecessor, namely -1. But then you are not working in arithmetic, but in the theory of integers. It is like being upset on an ophthalmologist because he cannot cure your toothache. Bruno Marchal wrote: No matter how good your simulation is, it is never going to change its surroundings without using I/O. QM does not allows this, unless you bring by the collapse of the wave. Clearly QM does allow that measurement in one object changes another object (we can argue with the word change, because the effect is non-causal). This is even experimentally verified. MW doesn't change this, it is the same with regards to correlations between classically non-interacting objects. Actually what you say is not correct, but is also out of my topics, as QM is not assumed in the comp theory, but has to be retrieved from it, if correct. Bruno http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence
On 07 Sep 2012, at 14:22, benjayk wrote: Bruno Marchal wrote: On 06 Sep 2012, at 13:31, benjayk wrote: Quantum effects beyond individual brains (suggested by psi) can't be computed as well: No matter what I compute in my brain, this doesn't entangle it with other brains since computation is classical. The UD emulates all quantum computer, as they do not violate Church Thesis. I am not talking about quantum computers, which are not entangled with their surroundings. I am talking about systems that are entangled to other systems. This is just lowering the comp level of substitution. It does not change the reasoning, thanks to the use of the notion of generalized brain. The computational model just doesn't describe that, because it in it there is no way for one computation to affect another computation (or something else) without using input/output. Yet in QM this is possible through entanglement. I don't assume QM. And comp confirms the existence of entanglement, even if quantitively many open problems subsist. My goal was to make this precise, or more precise. No matter how good your simulation is, it is never going to change its surroundings without using I/O. QM does not allows this, unless you bring by the collapse of the wave. With comp and QM-without-collapse (MW), entanglement are partitioning of the multi-dreams. Bruno benjayk -- View this message in context: http://old.nabble.com/Simple-proof-that-our-intelligence-transcends-that-of-computers-tp34330236p34402425.html Sent from the Everything List mailing list archive at Nabble.com. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en . http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence
On 07 Sep 2012, at 14:53, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Bruno Marchal Any time I use the word God, I always mean IMHO God. I am actually thinking instead of Cosmic Intelligence or Cosmnic Mind. I try not to use that word (God) but sometimes forget. I can see that. No problem if it is an accepted fuzzy pointer on our ignorance. Big problem if you reify it into a final explanation. I like the term cosmic, but only as poetry. The cosmos existence is an open problem for me. Bruno Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 9/7/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so that everything could function. - Receiving the following content - From: Bruno Marchal Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-09-06, 14:06:49 Subject: Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence On 05 Sep 2012, at 17:34, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Bruno Marchal God also created time, and anyway eternity is timeless, not sure if spacless. I can accept this as a rough sum up of some theory (= hypothesis; + consequences), not as an explanation per se. As an explanation, it is equivalent with don't ask for more understanding, and you fall in the authoritative trap. Bruno Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 9/5/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so that everything could function. - Receiving the following content - From: Bruno Marchal Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-09-05, 09:51:40 Subject: Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence On 04 Sep 2012, at 18:42, John Clark wrote: On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net wrote: God created the human race. And when God asks Himself the question Why have I always existed, why haven't I always not existed? what answer in his omniscience does He come up with? The neoplatonist conception of God does not allow It to ask such a question. Nor does Arithmetical Truth. God has no self-reference power at all, as this would make it inconsistent. Still defending the Christian God, aren't you? Bruno God is the uncreated infinite intelligence There was once a patent issued for a combination rat trap and potato peeler and people laugh about that, but using the exact same organ for both excretory and reproductive purposes does not seem very intelligent to me either, much less infinitely intelligent. And putting the blood vessels and nerves for the retina of the eye in front not in the back so the light must pass through them to get to the light sensitive cells also does not seem very smart; no engineer in his right mind would place the gears to move the film in a camera so that the light must pass through the gears before hitting the film. That's not the sort of thing you'd expect God to do, but it's exactly what you'd expect Evolution to do. John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com . To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en . http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything- l...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en . http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en . http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence
On 07 Sep 2012, at 15:45, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Bruno Marchal What is UD ? Universal Dovetailer. Bruno Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 9/7/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so that everything could function. - Receiving the following content - From: Bruno Marchal Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-09-06, 15:56:55 Subject: Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence On 06 Sep 2012, at 13:31, benjayk wrote: Quantum effects beyond individual brains (suggested by psi) can't be computed as well: No matter what I compute in my brain, this doesn't entangle it with other brains since computation is classical. The UD emulates all quantum computer, as they do not violate Church Thesis. A computational description of the brain is just a relative, approximate description, nothing more. It doesn't actually reflect what the brain is or what it does. The bet the computationalists do, is that nature has already build an emulator, through the brain, and that's why a computer might be able to emulate its programming, by nature, evolution, etc. And we can copy it without understanding, like a virus can copy a file without understanding of its content. Molecular biology is already digital relatively to chemistry. Don't take this as argument for comp, but as showing your argument against is not valid. Bruno http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en . http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence
Hi John Clark God is outside of spacetime (in uncreated) , so your actions were imaginary. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 9/8/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so that everything could function. - Receiving the following content - From: John Clark Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-09-07, 16:10:00 Subject: Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence On Thu, Sep 6, 2012 at 1:21 PM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: I was addressing John Clark, who confirmed my feeling that atheists are the number one defender of the Christian's conception of God. OK I see the error of my ways and now believe that God exists. Incidentally when I went out to my car today I found that I that a flat God, so I jacked up the car, got a spare God out of my trunk and took the punctured God off the axle and put on the spare God. I think the old God has a nail in it so I'm going to take it to the God repair shop to see if they can remove it and put a patch on the old God so I'll still have a spare God.? ?ohn K Clark ? ? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence
Hi Bruno Marchal Nobody has to believe anything I say. I thought that was a given. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 9/8/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so that everything could function. - Receiving the following content - From: Bruno Marchal Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-09-08, 04:44:44 Subject: Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence On 07 Sep 2012, at 14:53, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Bruno Marchal Any time I use the word God, I always mean IMHO God. I am actually thinking instead of Cosmic Intelligence or Cosmnic Mind. I try not to use that word (God) but sometimes forget. I can see that. No problem if it is an accepted fuzzy pointer on our ignorance. Big problem if you reify it into a final explanation. I like the term cosmic, but only as poetry. The cosmos existence is an open problem for me. Bruno Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 9/7/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so that everything could function. - Receiving the following content - From: Bruno Marchal Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-09-06, 14:06:49 Subject: Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence On 05 Sep 2012, at 17:34, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Bruno Marchal God also created time, and anyway eternity is timeless, not sure if spacless. I can accept this as a rough sum up of some theory (= hypothesis; + consequences), not as an explanation per se. As an explanation, it is equivalent with don't ask for more understanding, and you fall in the authoritative trap. Bruno Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 9/5/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so that everything could function. - Receiving the following content - From: Bruno Marchal Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-09-05, 09:51:40 Subject: Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence On 04 Sep 2012, at 18:42, John Clark wrote: On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net wrote: God created the human race. And when God asks Himself the question Why have I always existed, why haven't I always not existed? what answer in his omniscience does He come up with? The neoplatonist conception of God does not allow It to ask such a question. Nor does Arithmetical Truth. God has no self-reference power at all, as this would make it inconsistent. Still defending the Christian God, aren't you? Bruno God is the uncreated infinite intelligence There was once a patent issued for a combination rat trap and potato peeler and people laugh about that, but using the exact same organ for both excretory and reproductive purposes does not seem very intelligent to me either, much less infinitely intelligent. And putting the blood vessels and nerves for the retina of the eye in front not in the back so the light must pass through them to get to the light sensitive cells also does not seem very smart; no engineer in his right mind would place the gears to move the film in a camera so that the light must pass through the gears before hitting the film. That's not the sort of thing you'd expect God to do, but it's exactly what you'd expect Evolution to do. John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence
Bruno Marchal wrote: On 07 Sep 2012, at 14:22, benjayk wrote: Bruno Marchal wrote: On 06 Sep 2012, at 13:31, benjayk wrote: Quantum effects beyond individual brains (suggested by psi) can't be computed as well: No matter what I compute in my brain, this doesn't entangle it with other brains since computation is classical. The UD emulates all quantum computer, as they do not violate Church Thesis. I am not talking about quantum computers, which are not entangled with their surroundings. I am talking about systems that are entangled to other systems. This is just lowering the comp level of substitution. It does not change the reasoning, thanks to the use of the notion of generalized brain. It does, because you can't simulate indefinite entanglement. No matter how many entangled systems you simulate, you are always missing the entanglement of this combined system to another (which may be as crucial as the system itself, because it may lead to a very different unfoldment of events). A practically digital substitution (which is assumed in COMP) could be entangled with its surroundings, which may be very different than the entanglement of a brain (or a generalized brain) with its surroundings. The substitution may not only fail because the person itself is not preserved, but also because the world was not preserved (the person would certainly complain to the doctor if the world suddenly is substantially different - if there is still a doctor left, that is). And if you say that we can simulate this entanglement as well, the entanglement of this system to outside systems may again lead to the emulation to be not correct at all from a broader view (etc...). At every step the emulation may actually become more false, because more of the multiverse/universe is changed. We can argue that all these things may not be relevant (though I think they are), but in any case it makes the reasoning shaky. Bruno Marchal wrote: No matter how good your simulation is, it is never going to change its surroundings without using I/O. QM does not allows this, unless you bring by the collapse of the wave. Clearly QM does allow that measurement in one object changes another object (we can argue with the word change, because the effect is non-causal). This is even experimentally verified. MW doesn't change this, it is the same with regards to correlations between classically non-interacting objects. benjayk -- View this message in context: http://old.nabble.com/Simple-proof-that-our-intelligence-transcends-that-of-computers-tp34330236p34406812.html Sent from the Everything List mailing list archive at Nabble.com. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence
On 9/8/2012 10:08 AM, benjayk wrote: Bruno Marchal wrote: On 07 Sep 2012, at 14:22, benjayk wrote: Bruno Marchal wrote: On 06 Sep 2012, at 13:31, benjayk wrote: Quantum effects beyond individual brains (suggested by psi) can't be computed as well: No matter what I compute in my brain, this doesn't entangle it with other brains since computation is classical. The UD emulates all quantum computer, as they do not violate Church Thesis. I am not talking about quantum computers, which are not entangled with their surroundings. I am talking about systems that are entangled to other systems. This is just lowering the comp level of substitution. It does not change the reasoning, thanks to the use of the notion of generalized brain. It does, because you can't simulate indefinite entanglement. No matter how many entangled systems you simulate, you are always missing the entanglement of this combined system to another (which may be as crucial as the system itself, because it may lead to a very different unfoldment of events). A practically digital substitution (which is assumed in COMP) could be entangled with its surroundings, which may be very different than the entanglement of a brain (or a generalized brain) with its surroundings. The substitution may not only fail because the person itself is not preserved, but also because the world was not preserved (the person would certainly complain to the doctor if the world suddenly is substantially different - if there is still a doctor left, that is). And if you say that we can simulate this entanglement as well, the entanglement of this system to outside systems may again lead to the emulation to be not correct at all from a broader view (etc...). At every step the emulation may actually become more false, because more of the multiverse/universe is changed. We can argue that all these things may not be relevant (though I think they are), but in any case it makes the reasoning shaky. Hi, Does not entanglement not look like a form of diagonalization? Bruno Marchal wrote: No matter how good your simulation is, it is never going to change its surroundings without using I/O. QM does not allows this, unless you bring by the collapse of the wave. Clearly QM does allow that measurement in one object changes another object (we can argue with the word change, because the effect is non-causal). This is even experimentally verified. MW doesn't change this, it is the same with regards to correlations between classically non-interacting objects. benjayk -- Onward! Stephen http://webpages.charter.net/stephenk1/Outlaw/Outlaw.html -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence
Hi Bruno Marchal Any time I use the word God, I always mean IMHO God. I am actually thinking instead of Cosmic Intelligence or Cosmnic Mind. I try not to use that word (God) but sometimes forget. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 9/7/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so that everything could function. - Receiving the following content - From: Bruno Marchal Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-09-06, 14:06:49 Subject: Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence On 05 Sep 2012, at 17:34, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Bruno Marchal God also created time, and anyway eternity is timeless, not sure if spacless. I can accept this as a rough sum up of some theory (= hypothesis; + consequences), not as an explanation per se. As an explanation, it is equivalent with don't ask for more understanding, and you fall in the authoritative trap. Bruno Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 9/5/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so that everything could function. - Receiving the following content - From: Bruno Marchal Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-09-05, 09:51:40 Subject: Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence On 04 Sep 2012, at 18:42, John Clark wrote: On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net wrote: God created the human race. And when God asks Himself the question Why have I always existed, why haven't I always not existed? what answer in his omniscience does He come up with? The neoplatonist conception of God does not allow It to ask such a question. Nor does Arithmetical Truth. God has no self-reference power at all, as this would make it inconsistent. Still defending the Christian God, aren't you? Bruno God is the uncreated infinite intelligence There was once a patent issued for a combination rat trap and potato peeler and people laugh about that, but using the exact same organ for both excretory and reproductive purposes does not seem very intelligent to me either, much less infinitely intelligent. And putting the blood vessels and nerves for the retina of the eye in front not in the back so the light must pass through them to get to the light sensitive cells also does not seem very smart; no engineer in his right mind would place the gears to move the film in a camera so that the light must pass through the gears before hitting the film. That's not the sort of thing you'd expect God to do, but it's exactly what you'd expect Evolution to do. John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence
Hi Bruno Marchal What is UD ? Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 9/7/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so that everything could function. - Receiving the following content - From: Bruno Marchal Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-09-06, 15:56:55 Subject: Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence On 06 Sep 2012, at 13:31, benjayk wrote: Quantum effects beyond individual brains (suggested by psi) can't be computed as well: No matter what I compute in my brain, this doesn't entangle it with other brains since computation is classical. The UD emulates all quantum computer, as they do not violate Church Thesis. A computational description of the brain is just a relative, approximate description, nothing more. It doesn't actually reflect what the brain is or what it does. The bet the computationalists do, is that nature has already build an emulator, through the brain, and that's why a computer might be able to emulate its programming, by nature, evolution, etc. And we can copy it without understanding, like a virus can copy a file without understanding of its content. Molecular biology is already digital relatively to chemistry. Don't take this as argument for comp, but as showing your argument against is not valid. Bruno http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence
On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 1:10 PM, William R. Buckley bill.buck...@gmail.comwrote: While at any moment the tape may be finite, that it can at need grow is the fundamental notion of infinite. No, the fundamental notion of the infinite is that you can make a one to one correspondence with a proper subset of itself. The net result of Turing’s specification is that the tape is infinite If the machine comes to a halt then a finite amount of tape is sufficient to get its work done, if it does not halt then even a infinite amount of tape would not be sufficient. Turing proved that there is no general way to tell in advance one case from the other. John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence
On Wed, Sep 5, 2012 at 9:51 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: when God asks Himself the question Why have I always existed, why haven't I always not existed? what answer in his omniscience does He come up with? The neoplatonist conception of God does not allow It to ask such a question. Interesting, so I was mistaken in thinking that God can do anything and in fact the neoplatonists can order God around; but if God has been instructed not to worry His little head over such questions then He really doesn't have much to do. Apparently God (or rather the neoplatonist) have given control of the Universe over to Physics; and having never had anything to do I guess God just does what He always does and watches TV and eats potato chips all day. God is a pretty dull unimportant fellow, I can't understand why philosophers are so obsessed with such a nonentity. Still defending the Christian God, aren't you? Yes absolutely, I'm defending the four year old kid's concept of Santa Claus too because I think it might be useful if the words God and Santa Claus mean something, otherwise when I say I don't believe in either it would not convey any information to anyone about what I believe or don't believe. John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence
On Thu, Sep 6, 2012 at 1:21 PM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: I was addressing John Clark, who confirmed my feeling that atheists are the number one defender of the Christian's conception of God. OK I see the error of my ways and now believe that God exists. Incidentally when I went out to my car today I found that I that a flat God, so I jacked up the car, got a spare God out of my trunk and took the punctured God off the axle and put on the spare God. I think the old God has a nail in it so I'm going to take it to the God repair shop to see if they can remove it and put a patch on the old God so I'll still have a spare God. John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence
On 9/7/2012 4:10 PM, John Clark wrote: On Thu, Sep 6, 2012 at 1:21 PM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be mailto:marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: I was addressing John Clark, who confirmed my feeling that atheists are the number one defender of the Christian's conception of God. OK I see the error of my ways and now believe that God exists. Incidentally when I went out to my car today I found that I that a flat God, so I jacked up the car, got a spare God out of my trunk and took the punctured God off the axle and put on the spare God. I think the old God has a nail in it so I'm going to take it to the God repair shop to see if they can remove it and put a patch on the old God so I'll still have a spare God. John K Clark Hi John, It must be fun to be you! ;-) What would we do without your sharp wit, the world would be a boring place. :_( -- Onward! Stephen http://webpages.charter.net/stephenk1/Outlaw/Outlaw.html -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence
Bruno Marchal wrote: On 04 Sep 2012, at 21:47, benjayk wrote: Bruno Marchal wrote: Yes, we simulated some systems, but they couldn't perform the same function. A pump does the function of an heart. No. A pump just pumps blood. The heart also performs endocrine functions, it can react dynamically to the brain, it can grow, it can heal, it can become infected, etc... That is correct but not relevant. People do survive with pump at the place of the heart, but of course not perfectly, and have some problems through it. This is due to the fact the substitution level is crude for technical reason. That will be the case with artificial brain or parts of the brain, for a very long time, but is not relevant with the issue which assume only truth in principle. In any case, an artificial heart is not digital, and the substituted brain can also not be digital (according to your reasoning), which contradicts the assumption that there can be a digital substitution. Bruno Marchal wrote: Bruno Marchal wrote: And then another, much bigger step is required in order to say *everything*/everyone/every part can be emulated. Indeed. Comp makes this impossible, as the environment is the result of a comptetion between infinities of universal machine in arithmetic. See my other post to you sent yesterday. Yes, OK, I understand that. But this also means that COMP relies on the assumption that whatever is not emulable about our brains (or whatever else) does not matter at all to what we (locally) are, only what is emulable matters. I find this assumption completely unwarranted and I have yet to see evidence for it or a reasoning behind it. It is a theory. The evidence for it is that, except for matter itself, non computability has not been observed in nature. But nature is made of lots of matter, so how can you simply dismiss that as not relevant? Bruno Marchal wrote: It is also hard to make sense of darwinian evolution in a non computable framework, as it makes also hard to understand the redundant nature of the brain, and the fact that we are stable for brain perturbations. I don't see at all why this would be the case. Stability and redundancy may exist beyond computations as well. Why not? Bruno Marchal wrote: If you invoke something as elusive as a non computable effect in the brain (beyond the 1p itself which is not computable for any machine from her point of view), you have to give us an evidence that such thing exists. Is it in the neocortex, in the limbic system, in the cerebral stem, in the right brain? Again, everywhere. The very fact that the brain is made of neurons is not computable, because computation does not take structure into account (it doesn't differentiate between different instantiations). And for all we know, the structure of the brain *does* matter. It is heavily used in all attempts to explain its functioning. Quantum effects beyond individual brains (suggested by psi) can't be computed as well: No matter what I compute in my brain, this doesn't entangle it with other brains since computation is classical. A computational description of the brain is just a relative, approximate description, nothing more. It doesn't actually reflect what the brain is or what it does. benjayk -- View this message in context: http://old.nabble.com/Simple-proof-that-our-intelligence-transcends-that-of-computers-tp34330236p34397010.html Sent from the Everything List mailing list archive at Nabble.com. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence
If the digital substitution is at the density of 10^90 pixels per cubic centimeter, as found in string theory, then digital substitution is essentially analog. Richard On Thu, Sep 6, 2012 at 7:31 AM, benjayk benjamin.jaku...@googlemail.com wrote: Bruno Marchal wrote: On 04 Sep 2012, at 21:47, benjayk wrote: Bruno Marchal wrote: Yes, we simulated some systems, but they couldn't perform the same function. A pump does the function of an heart. No. A pump just pumps blood. The heart also performs endocrine functions, it can react dynamically to the brain, it can grow, it can heal, it can become infected, etc... That is correct but not relevant. People do survive with pump at the place of the heart, but of course not perfectly, and have some problems through it. This is due to the fact the substitution level is crude for technical reason. That will be the case with artificial brain or parts of the brain, for a very long time, but is not relevant with the issue which assume only truth in principle. In any case, an artificial heart is not digital, and the substituted brain can also not be digital (according to your reasoning), which contradicts the assumption that there can be a digital substitution. Bruno Marchal wrote: Bruno Marchal wrote: And then another, much bigger step is required in order to say *everything*/everyone/every part can be emulated. Indeed. Comp makes this impossible, as the environment is the result of a comptetion between infinities of universal machine in arithmetic. See my other post to you sent yesterday. Yes, OK, I understand that. But this also means that COMP relies on the assumption that whatever is not emulable about our brains (or whatever else) does not matter at all to what we (locally) are, only what is emulable matters. I find this assumption completely unwarranted and I have yet to see evidence for it or a reasoning behind it. It is a theory. The evidence for it is that, except for matter itself, non computability has not been observed in nature. But nature is made of lots of matter, so how can you simply dismiss that as not relevant? Bruno Marchal wrote: It is also hard to make sense of darwinian evolution in a non computable framework, as it makes also hard to understand the redundant nature of the brain, and the fact that we are stable for brain perturbations. I don't see at all why this would be the case. Stability and redundancy may exist beyond computations as well. Why not? Bruno Marchal wrote: If you invoke something as elusive as a non computable effect in the brain (beyond the 1p itself which is not computable for any machine from her point of view), you have to give us an evidence that such thing exists. Is it in the neocortex, in the limbic system, in the cerebral stem, in the right brain? Again, everywhere. The very fact that the brain is made of neurons is not computable, because computation does not take structure into account (it doesn't differentiate between different instantiations). And for all we know, the structure of the brain *does* matter. It is heavily used in all attempts to explain its functioning. Quantum effects beyond individual brains (suggested by psi) can't be computed as well: No matter what I compute in my brain, this doesn't entangle it with other brains since computation is classical. A computational description of the brain is just a relative, approximate description, nothing more. It doesn't actually reflect what the brain is or what it does. benjayk -- View this message in context: http://old.nabble.com/Simple-proof-that-our-intelligence-transcends-that-of-computers-tp34330236p34397010.html Sent from the Everything List mailing list archive at Nabble.com. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence
Hi Roger, I know, Roger. I was addressing John Clark, who confirmed my feeling that atheists are the number one defender of the Christian's conception of God. Your's is obviously closer to Plato and the general machine's theology. It is bit sad you don't listen to what the machines already can tell us. You can interpret the work of Gödel, Löb, ... Solovay, as a initial interview of the ideally correct self-referential machine. The modal logics G and G* axiomatize the propositional logics of such discourses. G* includes the machine's silence, which are rather important for the 'mystical' part of the universal machine. I will be direct. In your post you defend truth and vocabulary, where I prefer hypothesis, reasoning and testing. Especially in theology. Bruno On 05 Sep 2012, at 18:07, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Bruno Marchal I've been defending cosmic intelligence (CI) or Cosmic Mind, of Life , not the christian God, not the whole shebang, the Trinity. But actually I think they're probably all the same. CI was there before the world was created-- for sure, else the world could not have been created. But since CI created time and space the argument is irrevant. And I don't know what God can think, that much is Christian. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 9/5/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so that everything could function. - Receiving the following content - From: Bruno Marchal Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-09-05, 09:51:40 Subject: Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence On 04 Sep 2012, at 18:42, John Clark wrote: On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net wrote: God created the human race. And when God asks Himself the question Why have I always existed, why haven't I always not existed? what answer in his omniscience does He come up with? The neoplatonist conception of God does not allow It to ask such a question. Nor does Arithmetical Truth. God has no self-reference power at all, as this would make it inconsistent. Still defending the Christian God, aren't you? Bruno God is the uncreated infinite intelligence There was once a patent issued for a combination rat trap and potato peeler and people laugh about that, but using the exact same organ for both excretory and reproductive purposes does not seem very intelligent to me either, much less infinitely intelligent. And putting the blood vessels and nerves for the retina of the eye in front not in the back so the light must pass through them to get to the light sensitive cells also does not seem very smart; no engineer in his right mind would place the gears to move the film in a camera so that the light must pass through the gears before hitting the film. That's not the sort of thing you'd expect God to do, but it's exactly what you'd expect Evolution to do. John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything- l...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en . http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en . http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence
On 05 Sep 2012, at 17:34, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Bruno Marchal God also created time, and anyway eternity is timeless, not sure if spacless. I can accept this as a rough sum up of some theory (= hypothesis; + consequences), not as an explanation per se. As an explanation, it is equivalent with don't ask for more understanding, and you fall in the authoritative trap. Bruno Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 9/5/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so that everything could function. - Receiving the following content - From: Bruno Marchal Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-09-05, 09:51:40 Subject: Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence On 04 Sep 2012, at 18:42, John Clark wrote: On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net wrote: God created the human race. And when God asks Himself the question Why have I always existed, why haven't I always not existed? what answer in his omniscience does He come up with? The neoplatonist conception of God does not allow It to ask such a question. Nor does Arithmetical Truth. God has no self-reference power at all, as this would make it inconsistent. Still defending the Christian God, aren't you? Bruno God is the uncreated infinite intelligence There was once a patent issued for a combination rat trap and potato peeler and people laugh about that, but using the exact same organ for both excretory and reproductive purposes does not seem very intelligent to me either, much less infinitely intelligent. And putting the blood vessels and nerves for the retina of the eye in front not in the back so the light must pass through them to get to the light sensitive cells also does not seem very smart; no engineer in his right mind would place the gears to move the film in a camera so that the light must pass through the gears before hitting the film. That's not the sort of thing you'd expect God to do, but it's exactly what you'd expect Evolution to do. John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything- l...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en . http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en . http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence
On 06 Sep 2012, at 13:31, benjayk wrote: Quantum effects beyond individual brains (suggested by psi) can't be computed as well: No matter what I compute in my brain, this doesn't entangle it with other brains since computation is classical. The UD emulates all quantum computer, as they do not violate Church Thesis. A computational description of the brain is just a relative, approximate description, nothing more. It doesn't actually reflect what the brain is or what it does. The bet the computationalists do, is that nature has already build an emulator, through the brain, and that's why a computer might be able to emulate its programming, by nature, evolution, etc. And we can copy it without understanding, like a virus can copy a file without understanding of its content. Molecular biology is already digital relatively to chemistry. Don't take this as argument for comp, but as showing your argument against is not valid. Bruno http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence
Hi Bruno Marchal I've been defending cosmic intelligence (CI) or Cosmic Mind, of Life , not the christian God, not the whole shebang, the Trinity. But actually I think they're probably all the same. CI was there before the world was created-- for sure, else the world could not have been created. But since CI created time and space the argument is irrevant. And I don't know what God can think, that much is Christian. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 9/5/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so that everything could function. - Receiving the following content - From: Bruno Marchal Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-09-05, 09:51:40 Subject: Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence On 04 Sep 2012, at 18:42, John Clark wrote: On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net wrote: God created the human race. And when God asks Himself the question Why have I always existed, why haven't I always not existed? what answer in his omniscience does He come up with? The neoplatonist conception of God does not allow It to ask such a question. Nor does Arithmetical Truth. God has no self-reference power at all, as this would make it inconsistent. Still defending the Christian God, aren't you? Bruno God is the uncreated infinite intelligence There was once a patent issued for a combination rat trap and potato peeler and people laugh about that, but using the exact same organ for both excretory and reproductive purposes does not seem very intelligent to me either, much less infinitely intelligent. And putting the blood vessels and nerves for the retina of the eye in front not in the back so the light must pass through them to get to the light sensitive cells also does not seem very smart; no engineer in his right mind would place the gears to move the film in a camera so that the light must pass through the gears before hitting the film. That's not the sort of thing you'd expect God to do, but it's exactly what you'd expect Evolution to do. John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence
On 03 Sep 2012, at 21:24, benjayk wrote: Bruno Marchal wrote: On 03 Sep 2012, at 15:11, benjayk wrote: Bruno Marchal wrote: If you disagree, please tell me why. I don't disagree. I just point on the fact that you don't give any justification of your belief. If you are correct, there must be something in cells and brains that is not Turing emulable, and this is speculative, as nobody has found anything not Turing emulable in nature. You say this often, Bruno, yet I have never seen an emulation of any living system that functions the same as the original. This is not a valid argument. I have never seen a man walking on Mars, but this does not make it impossible. No, but we have no big gaps of belief to bridge if we consider a man walking on Mars. It's not much different than the moon. Yet emulating a natural system is something which we haven't even remotely suceeded in. But this confirms comp, as comp predicts that material system are not emulable, only simulable. Only digital being can be emulated, and comp assume that we are digital, unlike our bodies. Yes, we simulated some systems, but they couldn't perform the same function. A pump does the function of an heart. We also substituted some parts with non-living matter, but not with a mere computer. Comp does not say that we do that, nor even that we can do that. Only that it can be done in principle. And then another, much bigger step is required in order to say *everything*/everyone/every part can be emulated. Indeed. Comp makes this impossible, as the environment is the result of a comptetion between infinities of universal machine in arithmetic. See my other post to you sent yesterday. It is like saying that we can walk on all things, because we can walk on the moon. We most certainly can't walk on the sun, though. Sure. Bruno Bruno Marchal wrote: With comp we cannot emulate a rock, so we can't certainly emulate a living creature, as it is made of the apparent matter, which needs the complete UD*. But with comp all universal machine can emulate any universal machine, so if I am a program, at some levcel of description, the activity of that program, responsible for my consciousness here and now, can be emulated exactly. But why would you be a program? Why would you be more finite than a rock? I can't follow your logic behind this. Yes, assuming COMP your reasoning makes some sense, but then we are confronted with the absurd situation of our local me's being computational, yet everything we can actually observe being non-computational. Bruno Marchal wrote: The default position is that it is not emulable. On the contrary. Having no evidence that there is something non Turing emulable playing a role in the working mind, We do have evidence. We can't even make sense of the notion of emulating what is inherently indeterminate (like all matter, and so the brain as well). How to emulate something which has no determinate state with machines using (practically) determinate states? We can emulate quantum computers, but they still work based on definite/discrete states (though it allows for superposition of them, but they are collapsed at the end of the computation). Even according to COMP, it seems that matter is non-emulable. That this doesn't play a role in the working of the brain is just an assumption (I hope we agree there is a deep relation between local mind and brain). When we actually look into the brain we can't find anything that says whatever is going on that is not emulable doesn't matter. Bruno Marchal wrote: beyond its material constitution which by comp is only Turing recoverable in the limit (and thus non emulable) But that is the point. Why would its material constitution not matter? For all we know it matters very much, as the behaviour of the matter in the brain (and outside of it) determines its function. Bruno Marchal wrote: to bet that we are not machine is like speculating on something quite bizarre, just to segregationate negatively a class of entities. I don't know what you arguing against. I have never negatively segregationated any entity. It is just that computers can't do everything humans can, just as adults can't do everything children can (or vice versa) or plants can't do everything animals do (and vice versa) or life can't do what lifeless matter does (and vice versa). I have never postulated some moral hierarchy in there (though computers don't seem to mind always doing what they are told to do, which we might consider slavery, but that is just human bias). Also, I don't speculate on us not being machines. We have no a priori reason to assume we are machines in the first place, anymore than we have a reason to assume we are plants. Bruno Marchal wrote: This is almost akin to saying that the Indians have no souls, as if they would, they would know about Jesus, or
Re: Re: Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence
On Mon, Sep 3, 2012 at 8:39 AM, Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net wrote: From: Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net God can be thought of as cosmic intelligence And if humans are the only intelligence in the cosmos (and they might be) then the human race is God. or life itself. If as you say God is life then we know 2 things: 1) God exists. 2) You are more interested in the ASCII characters G-o-d than you are in the idea of God. As to what he can do, there are some limitations in the world he created, I'm not talking about the world God created, I'm interested in the limitations of God Himself, I'm interested in how God can do what He can do and why He can't do what He can't do, and if God really does exist then I have no doubt He would be even more interested in how He works than I am. And if the God theory can not even come close to explain one bit of that (and it can't) then it has not explained anything at all, it just adds pointless wheels within wheels that accomplish absolutely nothing. John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence
Hi John Clark No, God created the human race. So the human race cannot be God. IMHO God is the uncreated infinite intelligence behind/before/beyond/within Creation itself. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 9/4/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so that everything could function. - Receiving the following content - From: John Clark Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-09-04, 10:20:44 Subject: Re: Re: Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence On Mon, Sep 3, 2012 at 8:39 AM, Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net wrote: From: Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net God can be thought of as cosmic intelligence And if humans are the only intelligence in the cosmos (and they might be) then the human race is God. or life itself. If as you say God is life then we know 2 things: 1) God exists. 2) You are more interested in the ASCII characters G-o-d than you are in the idea of God. As to what he can do, there are some limitations in the world he created, I'm not talking about the world God created, I'm interested in the limitations of God Himself, I'm interested in how God can do what He can do and why He can't do what He can't do, and if God really does exist then I have no doubt He would be even more interested in how He works than I am. And if the God theory can not even come close to explain one bit of that (and it can't) then it has not explained anything at all, it just adds pointless wheels within wheels that accomplish absolutely nothing. John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence
On Mon, Sep 3, 2012 at 9:11 AM, benjayk benjamin.jaku...@googlemail.comwrote: Showing scientifically that nature is infinite isn't really possible. Maybe not. In Turing's proof he assumed that machines could not operate with infinite numbers, so if there is a theory of everything (and there might not be) and if you know it and if you can use nothing but that to show independently of Turing that no machine can solve the Halting Problem then that would prove that irrational numbers with a infinite number of digits play no part in the operation of the universe; on the other hand if this new physical theory shows you how to make such a machine then we'd know that nature understands and uses infinity. I admit that I used the word if a lot in all that. John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
RE: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence
Seems funny that Turing .assumed that machines could not operate with infinite numbers. given that the tape is assumed to be infinite. wrb From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of John Clark Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2012 8:59 AM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence On Mon, Sep 3, 2012 at 9:11 AM, benjayk benjamin.jaku...@googlemail.com wrote: Showing scientifically that nature is infinite isn't really possible. Maybe not. In Turing's proof he assumed that machines could not operate with infinite numbers, so if there is a theory of everything (and there might not be) and if you know it and if you can use nothing but that to show independently of Turing that no machine can solve the Halting Problem then that would prove that irrational numbers with a infinite number of digits play no part in the operation of the universe; on the other hand if this new physical theory shows you how to make such a machine then we'd know that nature understands and uses infinity. I admit that I used the word if a lot in all that. John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence
2012/9/4 William R. Buckley bill.buck...@gmail.com Seems funny that Turing “…assumed that machines could not operate with infinite numbers…” given that the tape is assumed to be infinite. Not really infinite but it has no boundaries, it can always extend if needed. At any given time the used tape is of finite length. Quentin ** ** wrb ** ** *From:* everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto: everything-list@googlegroups.com] *On Behalf Of *John Clark *Sent:* Tuesday, September 04, 2012 8:59 AM *To:* everything-list@googlegroups.com *Subject:* Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence* *** ** ** On Mon, Sep 3, 2012 at 9:11 AM, benjayk benjamin.jaku...@googlemail.com wrote: ** ** Showing scientifically that nature is infinite isn't really possible.*** * Maybe not. In Turing's proof he assumed that machines could not operate with infinite numbers, so if there is a theory of everything (and there might not be) and if you know it and if you can use nothing but that to show independently of Turing that no machine can solve the Halting Problem then that would prove that irrational numbers with a infinite number of digits play no part in the operation of the universe; on the other hand if this new physical theory shows you how to make such a machine then we'd know that nature understands and uses infinity. I admit that I used the word if a lot in all that. John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence
On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net wrote: God created the human race. And when God asks Himself the question Why have I always existed, why haven't I always not existed? what answer in his omniscience does He come up with? God is the uncreated infinite intelligence There was once a patent issued for a combination rat trap and potato peeler and people laugh about that, but using the exact same organ for both excretory and reproductive purposes does not seem very intelligent to me either, much less infinitely intelligent. And putting the blood vessels and nerves for the retina of the eye in front not in the back so the light must pass through them to get to the light sensitive cells also does not seem very smart; no engineer in his right mind would place the gears to move the film in a camera so that the light must pass through the gears before hitting the film. That's not the sort of thing you'd expect God to do, but it's exactly what you'd expect Evolution to do. John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
RE: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence
While at any moment the tape may be finite, that it can at need grow is the fundamental notion of infinite. One can hardly take a set of LARGE size (like half of the infinite set) and, say by weighing or by volumetric scale, determine if it is different from any truly infinite set. The point you make is a subjective one. The net result of Turing's specification is that the tape is infinite, effective (functional) though the definition may be. wrb From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Quentin Anciaux Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2012 9:10 AM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence 2012/9/4 William R. Buckley bill.buck...@gmail.com Seems funny that Turing .assumed that machines could not operate with infinite numbers. given that the tape is assumed to be infinite. Not really infinite but it has no boundaries, it can always extend if needed. At any given time the used tape is of finite length. Quentin wrb From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of John Clark Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2012 8:59 AM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence On Mon, Sep 3, 2012 at 9:11 AM, benjayk benjamin.jaku...@googlemail.com wrote: Showing scientifically that nature is infinite isn't really possible. Maybe not. In Turing's proof he assumed that machines could not operate with infinite numbers, so if there is a theory of everything (and there might not be) and if you know it and if you can use nothing but that to show independently of Turing that no machine can solve the Halting Problem then that would prove that irrational numbers with a infinite number of digits play no part in the operation of the universe; on the other hand if this new physical theory shows you how to make such a machine then we'd know that nature understands and uses infinity. I admit that I used the word if a lot in all that. John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com mailto:everything-list%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence
Well, the fact that at *any* moment the tape is of finite length explains why it can't handle *infinite* numbers... there is nothing funny about that. Quentin 2012/9/4 William R. Buckley bill.buck...@gmail.com While at any moment the tape may be finite, that it can at need grow is the fundamental notion of infinite. One can hardly take a set of LARGE size (like half of the infinite set) and, say by weighing or by volumetric scale, determine if it is different from any truly infinite set. The point you make is a subjective one. The net result of Turing’s specification is that the tape is infinite, effective (functional) though the definition may be. ** ** wrb ** ** *From:* everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto: everything-list@googlegroups.com] *On Behalf Of *Quentin Anciaux *Sent:* Tuesday, September 04, 2012 9:10 AM *To:* everything-list@googlegroups.com *Subject:* Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence* *** ** ** ** ** 2012/9/4 William R. Buckley bill.buck...@gmail.com Seems funny that Turing “…assumed that machines could not operate with infinite numbers…” given that the tape is assumed to be infinite. Not really infinite but it has no boundaries, it can always extend if needed. At any given time the used tape is of finite length. Quentin wrb *From:* everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto: everything-list@googlegroups.com] *On Behalf Of *John Clark *Sent:* Tuesday, September 04, 2012 8:59 AM *To:* everything-list@googlegroups.com *Subject:* Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence* *** On Mon, Sep 3, 2012 at 9:11 AM, benjayk benjamin.jaku...@googlemail.com wrote: Showing scientifically that nature is infinite isn't really possible.*** * Maybe not. In Turing's proof he assumed that machines could not operate with infinite numbers, so if there is a theory of everything (and there might not be) and if you know it and if you can use nothing but that to show independently of Turing that no machine can solve the Halting Problem then that would prove that irrational numbers with a infinite number of digits play no part in the operation of the universe; on the other hand if this new physical theory shows you how to make such a machine then we'd know that nature understands and uses infinity. I admit that I used the word if a lot in all that. John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence
John Clark-12 wrote: On Mon, Sep 3, 2012 at 9:11 AM, benjayk benjamin.jaku...@googlemail.comwrote: Showing scientifically that nature is infinite isn't really possible. Maybe not. In Turing's proof he assumed that machines could not operate with infinite numbers, so if there is a theory of everything (and there might not be) and if you know it and if you can use nothing but that to show independently of Turing that no machine can solve the Halting Problem then that would prove that irrational numbers with a infinite number of digits play no part in the operation of the universe; on the other hand if this new physical theory shows you how to make such a machine then we'd know that nature understands and uses infinity. I admit that I used the word if a lot in all that. Even the usual computer can use infinite numbers, like omega. Really going from 1 to omega is no more special or difficult than going from 1 to 2. We just don't do it that often because it (apparently) isn't of much use. Transfinite numbers mostly don't express much more than finite numbers, or at least we haven't really found the use for them. Irrational numbers don't really have digits. We just approximately display them using digits. Computers can also reason with irrational numbers (for example computer algebra systems can find irrational solutions of equations and express them precisely using terms like sqrt(n) ). With regards to nature, it seems that it in some ways it does use irrational numbers. Look at the earth and tell me that it has nothing to do with pi. It is true though that it doesn't use precise irrational numbers, but there doesn't seem to exist anything totally precise in nature at all - precision is just an abstraction. So according to your standard, clearly nature is infinite, because we can calculate using transfinite numbers. But of course this is a quite absurd conclusion, mainly because what we really mean by infinite has nothing to do with mathematically describable infinities like big ordinal or cardinal numbers. With regards to our intuitive notion of infiniteness, these are pretty finite, just like all other numbers. What we usually mean by infinite means more something like (absolutely) boundless or incompletable or inexhaustable or unbound or absolute. All of these have little do with what we can measure or describe and thus it falls outside the realm of science or math. We can only observe that we can't find a boundary to space, or an end of time, or an end to math, but it is hard to say how this could be made precise or how to falsify it (I'd say it is impossible). My take on it is simply that the infinite is too absolute to be scrutinized. You can't falsify something which can't be conceived to be otherwise. It's literally impossible to imagine something like an absolute boundary (absolute finiteness). It is a nonsense concept. Nature simply is inherently infinite and the finite is simply an expression of the infinite, and is itself also the infinite (like the number 1 also has infinity in it 1=1*1*1*1*1*1*1* ). benjayk -- View this message in context: http://old.nabble.com/Simple-proof-that-our-intelligence-transcends-that-of-computers-tp34330236p34388985.html Sent from the Everything List mailing list archive at Nabble.com. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence
Bruno Marchal wrote: Yes, we simulated some systems, but they couldn't perform the same function. A pump does the function of an heart. No. A pump just pumps blood. The heart also performs endocrine functions, it can react dynamically to the brain, it can grow, it can heal, it can become infected, etc... Bruno Marchal wrote: And then another, much bigger step is required in order to say *everything*/everyone/every part can be emulated. Indeed. Comp makes this impossible, as the environment is the result of a comptetion between infinities of universal machine in arithmetic. See my other post to you sent yesterday. Yes, OK, I understand that. But this also means that COMP relies on the assumption that whatever is not emulable about our brains (or whatever else) does not matter at all to what we (locally) are, only what is emulable matters. I find this assumption completely unwarranted and I have yet to see evidence for it or a reasoning behind it. benjayk -- View this message in context: http://old.nabble.com/Simple-proof-that-our-intelligence-transcends-that-of-computers-tp34330236p34389041.html Sent from the Everything List mailing list archive at Nabble.com. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Re: Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence
Hi John Clark God can be thought of as cosmic intelligence or life itself. As to what he can do, there are some limitations in the world he created, for that world is contingent and so contains some missing pieces, misfits, defects, all of that stuff. Crap happens. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 9/3/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so that everything could function. - Receiving the following content - From: John Clark Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-08-31, 12:28:15 Subject: Re: Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence On Fri, Aug 31, 2012 at 4:58 AM, Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net wrote:? ? God is necessary because He runs the whole show. And when in His omniscience God asks Himself How is it that I can run the whole show? How is it that I am able to do anything that I want to do? How do my powers work?, what answer does He come up with? The religious have become adept at dodging that question with bafflegab but the fact remains that if you can't provide a substantive answer then the God theory explains absolutely positively nothing. ? ? John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence
Bruno Marchal wrote: If you disagree, please tell me why. I don't disagree. I just point on the fact that you don't give any justification of your belief. If you are correct, there must be something in cells and brains that is not Turing emulable, and this is speculative, as nobody has found anything not Turing emulable in nature. You say this often, Bruno, yet I have never seen an emulation of any living system that functions the same as the original. The default position is that it is not emulable. We have no a priori reason to assume we can substitute one thing with another thing of an entirely different class. We have no more reason to assume that we can substitute a brain with an emulation of a brain than we have that we can substitute a building with a drawing of a building - even if it is so accurate that the illusion of it being a building is perfect at first glance. You still can't live in a drawing. Showing scientifically that nature is infinite isn't really possible. Measurements just can't yield infinity. It is like the natural numbers. You can't see that there are infinitely many of them by using examples. You just have to realize it is inherent to natural numbers that there's always another one (eg the successor). In the same way, nature can only be seen to be infinite by realizing it is an inherent property of it. There simply is no such thing as complete finitiness. No thing in nature has any absolute boundary seperating it from space, and there is no end to space - the notion of an end of space itself seems to be empty. We approach the limits of science here, as we leave the realm of the quantifiable and objectifiable, so frankly your statement just seems like scientism to me. From a mystical perspective (which can provide a useful fundament for science), it can be quite self-evident that everything that exists is infinite (even the finite is just a form of the infinite). A more pratical question would be how / in which form does infinity express in nature?. Of course this is an unlimited question, but I see some aspects of nature that can't be framed in terms of something finite. First uncertainty / indeterminateness. It might be that nature is inherently indeterminate (principle like heisenbergs uncertainty relation suggest it from a scientific perspective) and thus can't be captured by any particular description. So it is not emulable, because emulability rests on the premise that what is emulated can be precisely captured (otherwise we have no way of telling the computer what to do). Secondly entaglement. If all of existence is entangled and it is infinite in scope then everything that exists has an aspect of infiniteness (because you can't make sense of it apart from the rest of existence). Even tiny changes in very small systems might me non-locally magnified to an abitrary degree in other things/realms. This means that entanglement can't be truly simulated, because every simulation would be incomplete (because the state of the system depends on infinitely many other things, which we can't ALL simulate) and thus critically wrong at the right level. It might be possible to simulate the behaviour of the system outwardly, but this would be only superficial since the system would be (relatively) cut off from the transcendental realm that connects it to the rest of existence. For example if someone's brain is substituted he may behave similarily to the original (though I think this would be quite superficial), but he won't be connected to the universal field of experiencing in the same way - because at some level his emulation is only approximate which may not matter much on earth, but will matter in heaven or the beyond (which is what counts, ulitmately). benjayk -- View this message in context: http://old.nabble.com/Simple-proof-that-our-intelligence-transcends-that-of-computers-tp34330236p34383078.html Sent from the Everything List mailing list archive at Nabble.com. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence
On 03 Sep 2012, at 15:11, benjayk wrote: Bruno Marchal wrote: If you disagree, please tell me why. I don't disagree. I just point on the fact that you don't give any justification of your belief. If you are correct, there must be something in cells and brains that is not Turing emulable, and this is speculative, as nobody has found anything not Turing emulable in nature. You say this often, Bruno, yet I have never seen an emulation of any living system that functions the same as the original. This is not a valid argument. I have never seen a man walking on Mars, but this does not make it impossible. With comp we cannot emulate a rock, so we can't certainly emulate a living creature, as it is made of the apparent matter, which needs the complete UD*. But with comp all universal machine can emulate any universal machine, so if I am a program, at some levcel of description, the activity of that program, responsible for my consciousness here and now, can be emulated exactly. The default position is that it is not emulable. On the contrary. Having no evidence that there is something non Turing emulable playing a role in the working mind, beyond its material constitution which by comp is only Turing recoverable in the limit (and thus non emulable) to bet that we are not machine is like speculating on something quite bizarre, just to segregationate negatively a class of entities. This is almost akin to saying that the Indians have no souls, as if they would, they would know about Jesus, or to say that the Darwinian theory is rather weak, as it fails to explain how God made the world in six day. We have no a priori reason to assume we can substitute one thing with another thing of an entirely different class. Nature does that all the time. We did it already consciously when we accept a pump in place of a heart, or even when we just buy glasses. Some people will accept an artificial hypo campus, just because they need a way to stock new long term memories, and the doctor claimed it is the only known way to help a patient. We have no more reason to assume that we can substitute a brain with an emulation of a brain than we have that we can substitute a building with a drawing of a building LISP can pass the FORTRAN test. It can emulate precisely FORTRAN. The very hypothesis of digitality is what makes possible the confusion of level, at some precise level (and below). Nobody asks you to believe it works, but until we find a real evidence against comp (like a different physics), it is a matter of personal opinion. - even if it is so accurate that the illusion of it being a building is perfect at first glance. You still can't live in a drawing. The drawn people can live in a drawing. It sounds weird, because you have gone used the statical drawing in place of the dynamical emulating. A virtual typhoon cannot make you wet, unless you have been virtualized before. An emulated typhon can make wet emulated people, with comp. There is no contradiction as we assume that the brain, even in the generalized sense, is a universal emulator, so that *you* are already emulated by a natural organic computer. Showing scientifically that nature is infinite isn't really possible. Right. Nor is it possible to show it is finite. But we can do theories, and reason in those theories, and then compare with the observations, etc. Measurements just can't yield infinity. It is like the natural numbers. You can't see that there are infinitely many of them by using examples. Indeed. You just have to realize it is inherent to natural numbers that there's always another one (eg the successor). In the same way, nature can only be seen to be infinite by realizing it is an inherent property of it. There simply is no such thing as complete finitiness. No thing in nature has any absolute boundary seperating it from space, and there is no end to space - the notion of an end of space itself seems to be empty. Assuming space exist. But OK. We approach the limits of science here, as we leave the realm of the quantifiable and objectifiable, so frankly your statement just seems like scientism to me. It would be if I was pretending to defend a truth, but I am just humbly showing the consequence of a belief. From a mystical perspective (which can provide a useful fundament for science), it can be quite self-evident that everything that exists is infinite (even the finite is just a form of the infinite). Ha Ha ! You gently set the trap. I can say this: if comp is true and if both you and me, and the readers, are consistent, then you can understand, soon or later, why if you are correct, you lost correctness when appealing to that experience of the infinite. If not, *you* are the scientist speculating on a possibility which can lead to a prohibition of a entheotechnology
Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence
Bruno Marchal wrote: On 03 Sep 2012, at 15:11, benjayk wrote: Bruno Marchal wrote: If you disagree, please tell me why. I don't disagree. I just point on the fact that you don't give any justification of your belief. If you are correct, there must be something in cells and brains that is not Turing emulable, and this is speculative, as nobody has found anything not Turing emulable in nature. You say this often, Bruno, yet I have never seen an emulation of any living system that functions the same as the original. This is not a valid argument. I have never seen a man walking on Mars, but this does not make it impossible. No, but we have no big gaps of belief to bridge if we consider a man walking on Mars. It's not much different than the moon. Yet emulating a natural system is something which we haven't even remotely suceeded in. Yes, we simulated some systems, but they couldn't perform the same function. We also substituted some parts with non-living matter, but not with a mere computer. And then another, much bigger step is required in order to say *everything*/everyone/every part can be emulated. It is like saying that we can walk on all things, because we can walk on the moon. We most certainly can't walk on the sun, though. Bruno Marchal wrote: With comp we cannot emulate a rock, so we can't certainly emulate a living creature, as it is made of the apparent matter, which needs the complete UD*. But with comp all universal machine can emulate any universal machine, so if I am a program, at some levcel of description, the activity of that program, responsible for my consciousness here and now, can be emulated exactly. But why would you be a program? Why would you be more finite than a rock? I can't follow your logic behind this. Yes, assuming COMP your reasoning makes some sense, but then we are confronted with the absurd situation of our local me's being computational, yet everything we can actually observe being non-computational. Bruno Marchal wrote: The default position is that it is not emulable. On the contrary. Having no evidence that there is something non Turing emulable playing a role in the working mind, We do have evidence. We can't even make sense of the notion of emulating what is inherently indeterminate (like all matter, and so the brain as well). How to emulate something which has no determinate state with machines using (practically) determinate states? We can emulate quantum computers, but they still work based on definite/discrete states (though it allows for superposition of them, but they are collapsed at the end of the computation). Even according to COMP, it seems that matter is non-emulable. That this doesn't play a role in the working of the brain is just an assumption (I hope we agree there is a deep relation between local mind and brain). When we actually look into the brain we can't find anything that says whatever is going on that is not emulable doesn't matter. Bruno Marchal wrote: beyond its material constitution which by comp is only Turing recoverable in the limit (and thus non emulable) But that is the point. Why would its material constitution not matter? For all we know it matters very much, as the behaviour of the matter in the brain (and outside of it) determines its function. Bruno Marchal wrote: to bet that we are not machine is like speculating on something quite bizarre, just to segregationate negatively a class of entities. I don't know what you arguing against. I have never negatively segregationated any entity. It is just that computers can't do everything humans can, just as adults can't do everything children can (or vice versa) or plants can't do everything animals do (and vice versa) or life can't do what lifeless matter does (and vice versa). I have never postulated some moral hierarchy in there (though computers don't seem to mind always doing what they are told to do, which we might consider slavery, but that is just human bias). Also, I don't speculate on us not being machines. We have no a priori reason to assume we are machines in the first place, anymore than we have a reason to assume we are plants. Bruno Marchal wrote: This is almost akin to saying that the Indians have no souls, as if they would, they would know about Jesus, or to say that the Darwinian theory is rather weak, as it fails to explain how God made the world in six day. I am not saying computers have no souls. Indeed, computers are just as much awareness as everything else. There is ONLY soul. So I am not excluding or segregating anyone or anything. Computers are just intelligent in a different kind of way, just as indians are different from germans in some ways (though obviously computers are far more different to us). Bruno Marchal wrote: We have no a priori reason to assume we can substitute one thing with another thing of an entirely different class.
Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence
On 01 Sep 2012, at 17:52, William R. Buckley wrote: Bruno: The context is the interpreter; there is no difference between the two: context vs. interpreter. Usually, in computer science, the context is the environment or the inputs. The interpreter is more close to the thinking person being put in this or that context or situation. I don't see the necessity to identify them. It seems confusing to me. Also, as we humans are want to do, ? if you have no definition, then you have no grasp. ? Bruno http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence
On 30 Aug 2012, at 20:09, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Thursday, August 30, 2012 1:11:55 PM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 29 Aug 2012, at 20:09, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Wednesday, August 29, 2012 1:22:38 PM UTC-4, William R. Buckley wrote: Cells are indeed controlled by software (as represented in wetware form – i.e. DNA). It isn't really clear exactly what controls what in a living cell. I can say that cars are controlled by traffic signals, clocks, and calendars. To whatever we ascribe control, we only open up another level of unexplained control beneath it. What makes DNA readable to a ribosome? What makes anything readable to anything? Encoding and decoding, or application and abstraction, or addition and multiplication, ... My problem is that this implies that a pile of marbles know how many marbles they are. Not necessarily. A n-piles of marbles can emulate a m-pile of marbles. I could rig up a machine that weighs red marbles and then releases an equal weight of white marbles from a chute. Assuming calibrated marbles, there would be the same number, but no enumeration of the marbles has taken place. Nothing has been decoded, abstracted, or read, it's only a simple lever that opens a chute until the pan underneath it gets heavy enough to close the chute. There is no possibility of understanding at all, just a mindless enactment of behaviors. No mind, just machine. To be viable, comp has to explain why these words don't speak English. It is hard to follow your logic. Like someone told to you, a silicon robot could make the equivalent argument: explain me how a carbon based set of molecules can write english poems ... Sense is irreducible. From the first person perspective. Yes. For machine's too. No software can control anything, even itself, unless something has the power to make sense of it as software and the power to execute that sense within itself as causally efficacious motive. This seems to me like justifying the persistence of the physical laws by invoking God. It is too quick gap filling for me, and does not explain anything, as relying on fuzzy vague use of words. I might find sense there, but in the context of criticizing mechanism, I find that suspicious, to be frank. I'm only explaining what comp overlooks. It presumes the possibility of computation without any explanation or understanding of what i/o is. ? Why does anything need to leave Platonia? OK. (comp entails indeed that we have never leave Platonia, but again, this beg the question: why do you think anything has even leave Platonia? Physics is just Platonia seen from inside, from some angle/ pov). How does encoding come to be a possibility Because it exists provably once you assume addition and multiplication, already assumed by all scientists. and why should it be useful in any way (given a universal language of arithmetic truth). ? Why should it be useful? Are babies useful? Are the ring of Saturn useful? Comp doesn't account for realism, only a toy model of realism which is then passed off as genuine by lack of counterfactual proof - but proof defined only by the narrow confines of the toy model itself. It is the blind man proving that nobody can see by demanding that sight be put into the terms of blindness. You don't give a clue why it would be like that, except building on the gap between 1 and 3 view, but my point is that universal machine or numbers are already astonished by such gap. They can only say that they live it without being able to justify it, nor even to define precisely what their 1-view can be, until they bet on mechanism, and understand (already) why it has to be like that. Bruno http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence
Hi Bruno Marchal From the standpoint of Leibniz's metaphysics, God is necessary because He runs the whole show. In that case, the concept of gap is irrelevent. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 8/31/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so that everything could function. - Receiving the following content - From: Bruno Marchal Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-08-30, 13:11:51 Subject: Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence On 29 Aug 2012, at 20:09, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Wednesday, August 29, 2012 1:22:38 PM UTC-4, William R. Buckley wrote: Cells are indeed controlled by software (as represented in wetware form ? i.e. DNA). It isn't really clear exactly what controls what in a living cell. I can say that cars are controlled by traffic signals, clocks, and calendars. To whatever we ascribe control, we only open up another level of unexplained control beneath it. What makes DNA readable to a ribosome? What makes anything readable to anything? Encoding and decoding, or application and abstraction, or addition and multiplication, ... Sense is irreducible. From the first person perspective. Yes. For machine's too. No software can control anything, even itself, unless something has the power to make sense of it as software and the power to execute that sense within itself as causally efficacious motive. This seems to me like justifying the persistence of the physical laws by invoking God. It is too quick gap filling for me, and does not explain anything, as relying on fuzzy vague use of words. I might find sense there, but in the context of criticizing mechanism, I find that suspicious, to be frank. Bruno http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence
William, On 30 Aug 2012, at 22:27, William R. Buckley wrote: Bruno: I rather take issue with the notion that the living cell is not controlled by the genome. As biosemioticians (like Marcello Barbieri) teach us, there are a number of codes used in biological context, and each has a governing or controlling function within the corresponding context. The genome is clearly at the top of this hierarchy, with Natural Selection and mutational variation being higher-level controls on genome. Readability I think is well understood in terms of interactions between classes of molecules – ATP generation for one is rather well understood these days. Programmers (well experienced professionals) are especially sensitive to context issues. I agree with all this. I guess you know that. If you think I said anything incoherent with this, please quote me. Bruno wrb From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com ] On Behalf Of Bruno Marchal Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2012 10:12 AM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence On 29 Aug 2012, at 20:09, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Wednesday, August 29, 2012 1:22:38 PM UTC-4, William R. Buckley wrote: Cells are indeed controlled by software (as represented in wetware form – i.e. DNA). It isn't really clear exactly what controls what in a living cell. I can say that cars are controlled by traffic signals, clocks, and calendars. To whatever we ascribe control, we only open up another level of unexplained control beneath it. What makes DNA readable to a ribosome? What makes anything readable to anything? Encoding and decoding, or application and abstraction, or addition and multiplication, ... Sense is irreducible. From the first person perspective. Yes. For machine's too. No software can control anything, even itself, unless something has the power to make sense of it as software and the power to execute that sense within itself as causally efficacious motive. This seems to me like justifying the persistence of the physical laws by invoking God. It is too quick gap filling for me, and does not explain anything, as relying on fuzzy vague use of words. I might find sense there, but in the context of criticizing mechanism, I find that suspicious, to be frank. Bruno http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en . -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en . http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence
Hi Bruno Marchal Sorry for the continual objections, but I'm just trying to point out to you a hole in your thinking large enough to drive a bus through. However, you keep ignoring my objections, only intended to be constructive, which is rude. So What parts or part of a DNA molecule controls life ? The code is just a bunch of letters, same problem as with the computer. Letters can't think. A thinker is needed. To repeat, code by itself can't control anything. The code is no different than a map without a reader. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 8/31/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so that everything could function. - Receiving the following content - From: Bruno Marchal Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-08-31, 05:28:13 Subject: Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence William, On 30 Aug 2012, at 22:27, William R. Buckley wrote: Bruno: I rather take issue with the notion that the living cell is not controlled by the genome. As biosemioticians (like Marcello Barbieri) teach us, there are a number of codes used in biological context, and each has a governing or controlling function within the corresponding context. The genome is clearly at the top of this hierarchy, with Natural Selection and mutational variation being higher-level controls on genome. Readability I think is well understood in terms of interactions between classes of molecules ? ATP generation for one is rather well understood these days. Programmers (well experienced professionals) are especially sensitive to context issues. I agree with all this. I guess you know that. If you think I said anything incoherent with this, please quote me. Bruno wrb From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Bruno Marchal Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2012 10:12 AM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence On 29 Aug 2012, at 20:09, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Wednesday, August 29, 2012 1:22:38 PM UTC-4, William R. Buckley wrote: Cells are indeed controlled by software (as represented in wetware form ? i.e. DNA). It isn't really clear exactly what controls what in a living cell. I can say that cars are controlled by traffic signals, clocks, and calendars. To whatever we ascribe control, we only open up another level of unexplained control beneath it. What makes DNA readable to a ribosome? What makes anything readable to anything? Encoding and decoding, or application and abstraction, or addition and multiplication, ... Sense is irreducible. From the first person perspective. Yes. For machine's too. No software can control anything, even itself, unless something has the power to make sense of it as software and the power to execute that sense within itself as causally efficacious motive. This seems to me like justifying the persistence of the physical laws by invoking God. It is too quick gap filling for me, and does not explain anything, as relying on fuzzy vague use of words. I might find sense there, but in the context of criticizing mechanism, I find that suspicious, to be frank. Bruno http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence
On 31 Aug 2012, at 10:58, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Bruno Marchal From the standpoint of Leibniz's metaphysics, God is necessary because He runs the whole show. In that case, the concept of gap is irrelevent. No problem with this. With comp, arithmetical truth runs the whole show, in some sense. Bruno Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 8/31/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so that everything could function. - Receiving the following content - From: Bruno Marchal Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-08-30, 13:11:51 Subject: Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence On 29 Aug 2012, at 20:09, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Wednesday, August 29, 2012 1:22:38 PM UTC-4, William R. Buckley wrote: Cells are indeed controlled by software (as represented in wetware form � i.e. DNA). It isn't really clear exactly what controls what in a living cell. I can say that cars are controlled by traffic signals, clocks, and calendars. To whatever we ascribe control, we only open up another level of unexplained control beneath it. What makes DNA readable to a ribosome? What makes anything readable to anything? Encoding and decoding, or application and abstraction, or addition and multiplication, ... Sense is irreducible. From the first person perspective. Yes. For machine's too. No software can control anything, even itself, unless something has the power to make sense of it as software and the power to execute that sense within itself as causally efficacious motive. This seems to me like justifying the persistence of the physical laws by invoking God. It is too quick gap filling for me, and does not explain anything, as relying on fuzzy vague use of words. I might find sense there, but in the context of criticizing mechanism, I find that suspicious, to be frank. Bruno http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en . http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence
On Friday, August 31, 2012 4:47:30 AM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 30 Aug 2012, at 20:09, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Thursday, August 30, 2012 1:11:55 PM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 29 Aug 2012, at 20:09, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Wednesday, August 29, 2012 1:22:38 PM UTC-4, William R. Buckley wrote: Cells are indeed controlled by software (as represented in wetware form – i.e. DNA). It isn't really clear exactly what controls what in a living cell. I can say that cars are controlled by traffic signals, clocks, and calendars. To whatever we ascribe control, we only open up another level of unexplained control beneath it. What makes DNA readable to a ribosome? What makes anything readable to anything? Encoding and decoding, or application and abstraction, or addition and multiplication, ... My problem is that this implies that a pile of marbles know how many marbles they are. Not necessarily. A n-piles of marbles can emulate a m-pile of marbles. I could rig up a machine that weighs red marbles and then releases an equal weight of white marbles from a chute. Assuming calibrated marbles, there would be the same number, but no enumeration of the marbles has taken place. Nothing has been decoded, abstracted, or read, it's only a simple lever that opens a chute until the pan underneath it gets heavy enough to close the chute. There is no possibility of understanding at all, just a mindless enactment of behaviors. No mind, just machine. To be viable, comp has to explain why these words don't speak English. It is hard to follow your logic. Like someone told to you, a silicon robot could make the equivalent argument: explain me how a carbon based set of molecules can write english poems ... By your logic, I would have to explain how Bugs Bunny can't become a person too. As far as we know, we can't survive on any food that isn't carbon based. As far as we know, all living organisms need water to survive. Why should this be the case in a comp universe? I think that the problem is that you don't take your own view that physical matter is not primitive seriously. Like you, I see matter not as a stuff that independently exists, but as a projection of the exterior side of bodies making sense of each other - or the sense of selves making an exterior side of body sense to face each other. From that perspective it isn't the carbon that is meaningful, the carbon (H2O, sugars, amino acids, lipids really), the carbon is just the symptom, the shadow. Carbon is the command line 'OPEN BIOAVAILABILITY DICTIONARY which gives the thing access to the palette of histories associated with living organisms rather than astrophysical or geological events. Sense is irreducible. From the first person perspective. Yes. For machine's too. No software can control anything, even itself, unless something has the power to make sense of it as software and the power to execute that sense within itself as causally efficacious motive. This seems to me like justifying the persistence of the physical laws by invoking God. It is too quick gap filling for me, and does not explain anything, as relying on fuzzy vague use of words. I might find sense there, but in the context of criticizing mechanism, I find that suspicious, to be frank. I'm only explaining what comp overlooks. It presumes the possibility of computation without any explanation or understanding of what i/o is. ? How does the programming get in the program? Why does anything need to leave Platonia? OK. (comp entails indeed that we have never leave Platonia, but again, this beg the question: why do you think anything has even leave Platonia? Physics is just Platonia seen from inside, from some angle/pov). By Seen from inside you evoke a Non-Platonia. Why does Platonia need a Physics view? Why should that possibility even present itself in a Platonic universe? How does encoding come to be a possibility Because it exists provably once you assume addition and multiplication, already assumed by all scientists. If I begin with numbers and then add and multiply them together to get other numbers, where does the decoding come in? At what point do they suddenly turn into letters and colors and shapes and people? Why would they do that from an arithmetic perspective? We are not tempted to do this in a computer. We don't think 'maybe this program will run faster if we play it a happy song through tiny speakers in the microprocessor'. Even plants have been shown to benefit from being interacted with positively, but have computations shown any such thing? Has any computer program shown any non-programmatic environmental awareness at all? and why should it be useful in any way (given a universal language of arithmetic truth). ? Why should it be useful? Are babies useful? Are the ring of Saturn useful? No.
Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence
On Friday, August 31, 2012 6:08:05 AM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 31 Aug 2012, at 11:07, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Bruno Marchal The burden of proof, IMHO lies on those who claim that computers are alive and conscious. What evidence is there for that ? The causal nature of all observable brains components. (empirical evidence) What about the biological nature of all observable brain components? Much more compelling since it is a change in the biological status of the brain as a whole living organ which marks the difference between life and death, not the presence or absence of logic circuits. Craig -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/everything-list/-/M49PjD4y4QwJ. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence
At this moment of knowledge there is something that I thing everybody will agree: 1) the basic laws may be the same for computers and for minds, but in practical terms, the quantitative differences in well designed organization of the brain makes the mind qualitatively different from computers. They are not autonomous and probably will not be for a long time. We will not see it. 2) We feel ourselves as unique and qualitatively different from computers. At least in the non-professional moments where we are not being reflecting about it. 3) the reality that we perceive is created by the activity of the brain, the mind. So we can not ascertain the true nature of the external reality, neither talk properly about existence or non-existence in absolute terms, that is, in the external reality. 4) Any reasoning start in a set of unproven beliefs, Wathever they are. Depending on the beliefs our actions are different. Are you robots? I can't know up to now. I believe it is not. But I believe that´s all. I believe, you believe everyone believe. To realize that we believe in many unproven things is the first step in the self knowledge and in the respect of others, because not only we don´t know but probably we can´t ever know, but we need beliefs to take decissions, that is, to live. 2012/8/31 Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com On Friday, August 31, 2012 4:47:30 AM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 30 Aug 2012, at 20:09, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Thursday, August 30, 2012 1:11:55 PM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 29 Aug 2012, at 20:09, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Wednesday, August 29, 2012 1:22:38 PM UTC-4, William R. Buckley wrote: Cells are indeed controlled by software (as represented in wetware form – i.e. DNA). It isn't really clear exactly what controls what in a living cell. I can say that cars are controlled by traffic signals, clocks, and calendars. To whatever we ascribe control, we only open up another level of unexplained control beneath it. What makes DNA readable to a ribosome? What makes anything readable to anything? Encoding and decoding, or application and abstraction, or addition and multiplication, ... My problem is that this implies that a pile of marbles know how many marbles they are. Not necessarily. A n-piles of marbles can emulate a m-pile of marbles. I could rig up a machine that weighs red marbles and then releases an equal weight of white marbles from a chute. Assuming calibrated marbles, there would be the same number, but no enumeration of the marbles has taken place. Nothing has been decoded, abstracted, or read, it's only a simple lever that opens a chute until the pan underneath it gets heavy enough to close the chute. There is no possibility of understanding at all, just a mindless enactment of behaviors. No mind, just machine. To be viable, comp has to explain why these words don't speak English. It is hard to follow your logic. Like someone told to you, a silicon robot could make the equivalent argument: explain me how a carbon based set of molecules can write english poems ... By your logic, I would have to explain how Bugs Bunny can't become a person too. As far as we know, we can't survive on any food that isn't carbon based. As far as we know, all living organisms need water to survive. Why should this be the case in a comp universe? I think that the problem is that you don't take your own view that physical matter is not primitive seriously. Like you, I see matter not as a stuff that independently exists, but as a projection of the exterior side of bodies making sense of each other - or the sense of selves making an exterior side of body sense to face each other. From that perspective it isn't the carbon that is meaningful, the carbon (H2O, sugars, amino acids, lipids really), the carbon is just the symptom, the shadow. Carbon is the command line 'OPEN BIOAVAILABILITY DICTIONARY which gives the thing access to the palette of histories associated with living organisms rather than astrophysical or geological events. Sense is irreducible. From the first person perspective. Yes. For machine's too. No software can control anything, even itself, unless something has the power to make sense of it as software and the power to execute that sense within itself as causally efficacious motive. This seems to me like justifying the persistence of the physical laws by invoking God. It is too quick gap filling for me, and does not explain anything, as relying on fuzzy vague use of words. I might find sense there, but in the context of criticizing mechanism, I find that suspicious, to be frank. I'm only explaining what comp overlooks. It presumes the possibility of computation without any explanation or understanding of what i/o is. ? How does the programming get in the program? Why does anything need to leave Platonia? OK. (comp entails indeed that we have never
Re: Re: Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence
Hi John Clark JOHN: That implies that you CAN think of a way that a bunch of cells in your skull squirting out neurotransmitter chemicals can produce subjectivity. What is that way, what vital ingredient does a? neurotransmitter chemical in a brain have that a electron in a chip does not have? ROGER: Life. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 8/31/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so that everything could function. - Receiving the following content - From: John Clark Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-08-30, 15:46:03 Subject: Re: Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence On Thu, Aug 30, 2012 at 12:39 PM, Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net wrote: ? The self is subjective and I can think of?o way that objective machine codes and silicon chips could produce that. That implies that you CAN think of a way that a bunch of cells in your skull squirting out neurotransmitter chemicals can produce subjectivity. What is that way, what vital ingredient does a? neurotransmitter chemical in a brain have that a electron in a chip does not have? The self must be alive and conscious, two functions impossible to implement on silicon in binary code. Then silicon is lacking something vital that carbon and hydrogen atoms have. In other words you believe in vitalism. I don't. ? Personally I believe that life cannot be created, it simply is/was/and ever shall be, beyond spacetime ? Translated from the original bafflegab: Life does not exist in a place or at a time. And that is clearly incorrect.? So the universe and all life was produced as a thought in the mind of God If you can't explain how God did this then you really haven't explained anything at all and haven't given God very much to do, He must be infinitely bored. If you don't like the word God replace it above with supreme monad or perhaps cosmic mind. How about replacing it with a big I don't know. Not knowing is a perfectly respectable state to be in, unlike pretending to explained something when you really have not. ? John K Clark? ? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence
Hi Roger Clough, On 31 Aug 2012, at 11:43, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Bruno Marchal Sorry for the continual objections, but I'm just trying to point out to you a hole in your thinking large enough to drive a bus through. LOL However, you keep ignoring my objections, only intended to be constructive, which is rude. So You object only to my working hypothesis. I just show that you are begging the question. What parts or part of a DNA molecule controls life ? What parts of the DNA molecules does not obey to the laws of physics (which are known to be Turing emulable)? I guess you agree that we can survive with an artificial heart, liver, blood, skin, ... Why not with an artificial brain? What is the part of the brain which disobeys to the physical laws? The code is just a bunch of letters, same problem as with the computer. Humans cannot think either, with such argument, as an alien could consider them just as a bunch of molecules. Letters can't think. A thinker is needed. Letters can not add number, only a mathematician can, so a computer cannot add numbers. To repeat, code by itself can't control anything. A code can be implemented relatively to a universal code (computers) and can control partially itself, as computer science can illustrate. You are just saying than computers are stupid, without saying why. You reduce computer to some of their third person facets, but we know that they are *much* more. The code is no different than a map without a reader. The local physical universe can make that code acting on itself, and changing itself, in a non controllable or predictable way. It is not the code who does the thinking, but the activity entailed by the decoding of the code, and the decoding is done by some other universal system. Codes are like maps. Useless and passive without a reader. The local universe, or the environment is the reader, like the enzyme RNA polymerase can translate DNA in RNA, and RNA is naturally decoded into protein and enzyme by the transfert and ribosomic RNAs, with the help of proteins and enzyme already build from that very process. Bruno Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 8/31/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so that everything could function. - Receiving the following content - From: Bruno Marchal Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-08-31, 05:28:13 Subject: Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence William, On 30 Aug 2012, at 22:27, William R. Buckley wrote: Bruno: I rather take issue with the notion that the living cell is not controlled by the genome. As biosemioticians (like Marcello Barbieri) teach us, there are a number of codes used in biological context, and each has a governing or controlling function within the corresponding context. The genome is clearly at the top of this hierarchy, with Natural Selection and mutational variation being higher-level controls on genome. Readability I think is well understood in terms of interactions between classes of molecules � ATP generation for one is rather well understood these days. Programmers (well experienced professionals) are especially sensitive to context issues. I agree with all this. I guess you know that. If you think I said anything incoherent with this, please quote me. Bruno wrb From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com ] On Behalf Of Bruno Marchal Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2012 10:12 AM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence On 29 Aug 2012, at 20:09, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Wednesday, August 29, 2012 1:22:38 PM UTC-4, William R. Buckley wrote: Cells are indeed controlled by software (as represented in wetware form � i.e. DNA). It isn't really clear exactly what controls what in a living cell. I can say that cars are controlled by traffic signals, clocks, and calendars. To whatever we ascribe control, we only open up another level of unexplained control beneath it. What makes DNA readable to a ribosome? What makes anything readable to anything? Encoding and decoding, or application and abstraction, or addition and multiplication, ... Sense is irreducible. From the first person perspective. Yes. For machine's too. No software can control anything, even itself, unless something has the power to make sense of it as software and the power to execute that sense within itself as causally efficacious motive. This seems to me like justifying the persistence of the physical laws by invoking God. It is too quick gap filling for me, and does not explain anything, as relying on fuzzy vague use of words. I might find sense there, but in the context of criticizing mechanism, I find that suspicious, to be frank. Bruno http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because
Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence
On 31 Aug 2012, at 14:08, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Friday, August 31, 2012 4:47:30 AM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 30 Aug 2012, at 20:09, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Thursday, August 30, 2012 1:11:55 PM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 29 Aug 2012, at 20:09, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Wednesday, August 29, 2012 1:22:38 PM UTC-4, William R. Buckley wrote: Cells are indeed controlled by software (as represented in wetware form – i.e. DNA). It isn't really clear exactly what controls what in a living cell. I can say that cars are controlled by traffic signals, clocks, and calendars. To whatever we ascribe control, we only open up another level of unexplained control beneath it. What makes DNA readable to a ribosome? What makes anything readable to anything? Encoding and decoding, or application and abstraction, or addition and multiplication, ... My problem is that this implies that a pile of marbles know how many marbles they are. Not necessarily. A n-piles of marbles can emulate a m-pile of marbles. I could rig up a machine that weighs red marbles and then releases an equal weight of white marbles from a chute. Assuming calibrated marbles, there would be the same number, but no enumeration of the marbles has taken place. Nothing has been decoded, abstracted, or read, it's only a simple lever that opens a chute until the pan underneath it gets heavy enough to close the chute. There is no possibility of understanding at all, just a mindless enactment of behaviors. No mind, just machine. To be viable, comp has to explain why these words don't speak English. It is hard to follow your logic. Like someone told to you, a silicon robot could make the equivalent argument: explain me how a carbon based set of molecules can write english poems ... By your logic, I would have to explain how Bugs Bunny can't become a person too. It can. In some universal environment, it is quite possible that bugs bunny like beings become persons. As far as we know, we can't survive on any food that isn't carbon based. As far as we know, all living organisms need water to survive. On our planet, but you extrapolate too much. Why should this be the case in a comp universe? Open and hard problem, but a priori, life can takes different forms. I think that the problem is that you don't take your own view that physical matter is not primitive seriously. Like you, I see matter not as a stuff that independently exists, but as a projection of the exterior side of bodies making sense of each other - or the sense of selves making an exterior side of body sense to face each other. From that perspective it isn't the carbon that is meaningful, the carbon (H2O, sugars, amino acids, lipids really), the carbon is just the symptom, the shadow. Carbon is the command line 'OPEN BIOAVAILABILITY DICTIONARY which gives the thing access to the palette of histories associated with living organisms rather than astrophysical or geological events. This is not inconsistent with comp, but I don't find this plausible. In fact I believe that all civilisation in our physical universe end up into a giant topological computing machinery (a quark star, whose stability depends on sophisticated error tolerant sort of quantum computation) virtualising their past and future. Carbon might be just a step in life development. We might already be virtual and living in such a star. But more deeply, we are already all in arithmetic. Bruno Sense is irreducible. From the first person perspective. Yes. For machine's too. No software can control anything, even itself, unless something has the power to make sense of it as software and the power to execute that sense within itself as causally efficacious motive. This seems to me like justifying the persistence of the physical laws by invoking God. It is too quick gap filling for me, and does not explain anything, as relying on fuzzy vague use of words. I might find sense there, but in the context of criticizing mechanism, I find that suspicious, to be frank. I'm only explaining what comp overlooks. It presumes the possibility of computation without any explanation or understanding of what i/o is. ? How does the programming get in the program? Why does anything need to leave Platonia? OK. (comp entails indeed that we have never leave Platonia, but again, this beg the question: why do you think anything has even leave Platonia? Physics is just Platonia seen from inside, from some angle/pov). By Seen from inside you evoke a Non-Platonia. Why does Platonia need a Physics view? Why should that possibility even present itself in a Platonic universe? How does encoding come to be a possibility Because it exists provably once you assume addition and multiplication, already assumed by all scientists. If I begin with numbers and then add and
Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence
On 31 Aug 2012, at 14:08, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Friday, August 31, 2012 4:47:30 AM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 30 Aug 2012, at 20:09, Craig Weinberg wrote: Sense is irreducible. From the first person perspective. Yes. For machine's too. No software can control anything, even itself, unless something has the power to make sense of it as software and the power to execute that sense within itself as causally efficacious motive. This seems to me like justifying the persistence of the physical laws by invoking God. It is too quick gap filling for me, and does not explain anything, as relying on fuzzy vague use of words. I might find sense there, but in the context of criticizing mechanism, I find that suspicious, to be frank. I'm only explaining what comp overlooks. It presumes the possibility of computation without any explanation or understanding of what i/o is. ? How does the programming get in the program? Like the number 67589995004 get into arithmetic. By the consequence of addition and multiplication law. It is not obvious, but well explained in good textbook in logic. Why does anything need to leave Platonia? OK. (comp entails indeed that we have never leave Platonia, but again, this beg the question: why do you think anything has even leave Platonia? Physics is just Platonia seen from inside, from some angle/pov). By Seen from inside you evoke a Non-Platonia. Why does Platonia need a Physics view? Why should that possibility even present itself in a Platonic universe? It does not. It does as a collective hallucination by numbers. But you need computer science to get that point clearly. How does encoding come to be a possibility Because it exists provably once you assume addition and multiplication, already assumed by all scientists. If I begin with numbers and then add and multiply them together to get other numbers, where does the decoding come in? It is long to explain, but the statement that the machine number Nu, in some enumeration of the partial computable function, stops on the number X is equivalent with the following arithmetical and polynomial relations: phi_Nu(X) converges (the machine Nu stops when applied to the input X) iff BEGIN: Nu = ((ZUY)^2 + U)^2 + Y ELG^2 + Al = (B - XY)Q^2 Qu = B^(5^60) La + Qu^4 = 1 + LaB^5 Th + 2Z = B^5 L = U + TTh E = Y + MTh N = Q^16 R = [G + EQ^3 + LQ^5 + (2(E - ZLa)(1 + XB^5 + G)^4 + LaB^5 + + LaB^5Q^4)Q^4](N^2 -N) + [Q^3 -BL + L + ThLaQ^3 + (B^5 - 2)Q^5] (N^2 - 1) P = 2W(S^2)(R^2)N^2 (P^2)K^2 - K^2 + 1 = Ta^2 4(c - KSN^2)^2 + Et = K^2 K = R + 1 + HP - H A = (WN^2 + 1)RSN^2 C = 2R + 1 Ph D = BW + CA -2C + 4AGa -5Ga D^2 = (A^2 - 1)C^2 + 1 F^2 = (A^2 - 1)(I^2)C^4 + 1 (D + OF)^2 = ((A + F^2(D^2 - A^2))^2 - 1)(2R + 1 + JC)^2 + 1 END Xa^3 is an abbreviation of Xa * Xa * Xa, so you can see arithmetic naturally describes, complex computer science relations, in the language {s, 0, +, *}. See Matiyasevic book for more, and notably explicit arithmetical form for decoding and encoding. Those relation are true or false independently of me, and you, and define a universal dovetaling in pure arithmetic. At what point do they suddenly turn into letters and colors and shapes and people? When Nu represent the brain of a human being, and X an input of similar to the imput you get in the eyes when looking something colored. (I use comp, of course: I answer in the theory I am working in). Why would they do that from an arithmetic perspective? Why do 3 divides 9? We are not tempted to do this in a computer. We don't think 'maybe this program will run faster if we play it a happy song through tiny speakers in the microprocessor'. Even plants have been shown to benefit from being interacted with positively, but have computations shown any such thing? Has any computer program shown any non- programmatic environmental awareness at all? This is not reasoning. You can't compare today machine, with humans who have a very long history. But such history is in arithmetic (trivially). and why should it be useful in any way (given a universal language of arithmetic truth). ? Why should it be useful? Are babies useful? Are the ring of Saturn useful? No. They aren't. That's my point. Those things would never arise from number crunching alone. Indeed. But the hallucination of babies and Saturn rings do. Numbers begat only more numbers. If you apply numbers to forms, then you get interesting forms. If you apply interesting colors, sounds, etc. But numbers will never discover these things. We discover them. Real things discover numbers, not the other way around. We are relative numbers. You just asserts that we are not. We agree to disagree on that possibility. Comp doesn't account for realism, only a toy model of realism which is then passed off as genuine
Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence
On 31 Aug 2012, at 14:30, Alberto G. Corona wrote: At this moment of knowledge there is something that I thing everybody will agree: 1) the basic laws may be the same for computers and for minds, but in practical terms, the quantitative differences in well designed organization of the brain makes the mind qualitatively different from computers. They are not autonomous and probably will not be for a long time. We will not see it. 2) We feel ourselves as unique and qualitatively different from computers. At least in the non-professional moments where we are not being reflecting about it. 3) the reality that we perceive is created by the activity of the brain, the mind. So we can not ascertain the true nature of the external reality, neither talk properly about existence or non- existence in absolute terms, that is, in the external reality. Thats the old dream argument. It is also the UDA step six, in modern digital rendering. A key point indeed. 4) Any reasoning start in a set of unproven beliefs, Wathever they are. Depending on the beliefs our actions are different. Are you robots? I can't know up to now. I believe it is not. But I believe that´s all. I believe, you believe everyone believe. To realize that we believe in many unproven things is the first step in the self knowledge and in the respect of others, because not only we don´t know but probably we can´t ever know, but we need beliefs to take decissions, that is, to live. That is why I insist that people gives their axioms, or theories. Then we can do science instead of asserting public truth, which is, in my opinion, bad philosophy, as indeed we cannot know any public truth. Is there a moon? That is an hypothesis. Nobody has given a proof of the absolute existence of the moon. Bruno 2012/8/31 Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com On Friday, August 31, 2012 4:47:30 AM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 30 Aug 2012, at 20:09, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Thursday, August 30, 2012 1:11:55 PM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 29 Aug 2012, at 20:09, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Wednesday, August 29, 2012 1:22:38 PM UTC-4, William R. Buckley wrote: Cells are indeed controlled by software (as represented in wetware form – i.e. DNA). It isn't really clear exactly what controls what in a living cell. I can say that cars are controlled by traffic signals, clocks, and calendars. To whatever we ascribe control, we only open up another level of unexplained control beneath it. What makes DNA readable to a ribosome? What makes anything readable to anything? Encoding and decoding, or application and abstraction, or addition and multiplication, ... My problem is that this implies that a pile of marbles know how many marbles they are. Not necessarily. A n-piles of marbles can emulate a m-pile of marbles. I could rig up a machine that weighs red marbles and then releases an equal weight of white marbles from a chute. Assuming calibrated marbles, there would be the same number, but no enumeration of the marbles has taken place. Nothing has been decoded, abstracted, or read, it's only a simple lever that opens a chute until the pan underneath it gets heavy enough to close the chute. There is no possibility of understanding at all, just a mindless enactment of behaviors. No mind, just machine. To be viable, comp has to explain why these words don't speak English. It is hard to follow your logic. Like someone told to you, a silicon robot could make the equivalent argument: explain me how a carbon based set of molecules can write english poems ... By your logic, I would have to explain how Bugs Bunny can't become a person too. As far as we know, we can't survive on any food that isn't carbon based. As far as we know, all living organisms need water to survive. Why should this be the case in a comp universe? I think that the problem is that you don't take your own view that physical matter is not primitive seriously. Like you, I see matter not as a stuff that independently exists, but as a projection of the exterior side of bodies making sense of each other - or the sense of selves making an exterior side of body sense to face each other. From that perspective it isn't the carbon that is meaningful, the carbon (H2O, sugars, amino acids, lipids really), the carbon is just the symptom, the shadow. Carbon is the command line 'OPEN BIOAVAILABILITY DICTIONARY which gives the thing access to the palette of histories associated with living organisms rather than astrophysical or geological events. Sense is irreducible. From the first person perspective. Yes. For machine's too. No software can control anything, even itself, unless something has the power to make sense of it as software and the power to execute that sense within itself as causally efficacious motive. This seems to me like justifying the
Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence
On 31 Aug 2012, at 15:22, William R. Buckley wrote: Bruno: Is not this quote of yours plain enough as evidence that you said something incoherent: “It isn't really clear exactly what controls what in a living cell.” I never wrote that. I think Roger wrote it. Bruno wrb From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com ] On Behalf Of Bruno Marchal Sent: Friday, August 31, 2012 2:28 AM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence William, On 30 Aug 2012, at 22:27, William R. Buckley wrote: Bruno: I rather take issue with the notion that the living cell is not controlled by the genome. As biosemioticians (like Marcello Barbieri) teach us, there are a number of codes used in biological context, and each has a governing or controlling function within the corresponding context. The genome is clearly at the top of this hierarchy, with Natural Selection and mutational variation being higher-level controls on genome. Readability I think is well understood in terms of interactions between classes of molecules – ATP generation for one is rather well understood these days. Programmers (well experienced professionals) are especially sensitive to context issues. I agree with all this. I guess you know that. If you think I said anything incoherent with this, please quote me. Bruno wrb From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com ] On Behalf Of Bruno Marchal Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2012 10:12 AM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence On 29 Aug 2012, at 20:09, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Wednesday, August 29, 2012 1:22:38 PM UTC-4, William R. Buckley wrote: Cells are indeed controlled by software (as represented in wetware form – i.e. DNA). It isn't really clear exactly what controls what in a living cell. I can say that cars are controlled by traffic signals, clocks, and calendars. To whatever we ascribe control, we only open up another level of unexplained control beneath it. What makes DNA readable to a ribosome? What makes anything readable to anything? Encoding and decoding, or application and abstraction, or addition and multiplication, ... Sense is irreducible. From the first person perspective. Yes. For machine's too. No software can control anything, even itself, unless something has the power to make sense of it as software and the power to execute that sense within itself as causally efficacious motive. This seems to me like justifying the persistence of the physical laws by invoking God. It is too quick gap filling for me, and does not explain anything, as relying on fuzzy vague use of words. I might find sense there, but in the context of criticizing mechanism, I find that suspicious, to be frank. Bruno http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en . -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en . http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en . -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en . http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence
On 31 Aug 2012, at 15:24, William R. Buckley wrote: Roger and Bruno: No part of the DNA molecule controls life. DNA is simply a description, a representation of information, a piece of paper upon which letters are written. It is the letter order that controls life. Nothing more. No problem with this. You might read my paper Amoeba, Planaria and dreaming machines(*) which explains the math of self-reproduction, and self-regeneration and thus embrogenesis. (and also of dreaming, like Bateson, I think biology and psychology are different instantiation of the same self-referential phenomenon. I think all this is coherent with your views as exposed here and in your paper. You asked me to explain Kleene's theorem. I will do that asap, but it is hard to explain technics on a mailing list. I will try to say two words on it someday, though. Bruno (*) Marchal B., 1992, Amoeba, Planaria, and Dreaming Machines, in Bourgine Varela (Eds), Artificial Life, towards a practice of autonomous systems, ECAL 91, MIT press. wrb From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com ] On Behalf Of Roger Clough Sent: Friday, August 31, 2012 2:44 AM To: everything-list Subject: Re: Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence Hi Bruno Marchal Sorry for the continual objections, but I'm just trying to point out to you a hole in your thinking large enough to drive a bus through. However, you keep ignoring my objections, only intended to be constructive, which is rude. So What parts or part of a DNA molecule controls life ? The code is just a bunch of letters, same problem as with the computer. Letters can't think. A thinker is needed. To repeat, code by itself can't control anything. The code is no different than a map without a reader. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 8/31/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so that everything could function. - Receiving the following content - From: Bruno Marchal Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-08-31, 05:28:13 Subject: Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence William, On 30 Aug 2012, at 22:27, William R. Buckley wrote: Bruno: I rather take issue with the notion that the living cell is not controlled by the genome. As biosemioticians (like Marcello Barbieri) teach us, there are a number of codes used in biological context, and each has a governing or controlling function within the corresponding context. The genome is clearly at the top of this hierarchy, with Natural Selection and mutational variation being higher-level controls on genome. Readability I think is well understood in terms of interactions between classes of molecules � ATP generation for one is rather well understood these days. Programmers (well experienced professionals) are especially sensitive to context issues. I agree with all this. I guess you know that. If you think I said anything incoherent with this, please quote me. Bruno wrb From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com ] On Behalf Of Bruno Marchal Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2012 10:12 AM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence On 29 Aug 2012, at 20:09, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Wednesday, August 29, 2012 1:22:38 PM UTC-4, William R. Buckley wrote: Cells are indeed controlled by software (as represented in wetware form � i.e. DNA). It isn't really clear exactly what controls what in a living cell. I can say that cars are controlled by traffic signals, clocks, and calendars. To whatever we ascribe control, we only open up another level of unexplained control beneath it. What makes DNA readable to a ribosome? What makes anything readable to anything? Encoding and decoding, or application and abstraction, or addition and multiplication, ... Sense is irreducible. From the first person perspective. Yes. For machine's too. No software can control anything, even itself, unless something has the power to make sense of it as software and the power to execute that sense within itself as causally efficacious motive. This seems to me like justifying the persistence of the physical laws by invoking God. It is too quick gap filling for me, and does not explain anything, as relying on fuzzy vague use of words. I might find sense there, but in the context of criticizing mechanism, I find that suspicious, to be frank. Bruno http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en . -- You received
Re: Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence
Hi Bruno Marchal Are you saying that comp creates and controls all by means of some kind of code in some Pythagorean realm, where all is numbers ? That everything is computable ? Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 8/31/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so that everything could function. - Receiving the following content - From: Bruno Marchal Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-08-31, 10:27:35 Subject: Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence On 31 Aug 2012, at 14:08, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Friday, August 31, 2012 4:47:30 AM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 30 Aug 2012, at 20:09, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Thursday, August 30, 2012 1:11:55 PM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 29 Aug 2012, at 20:09, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Wednesday, August 29, 2012 1:22:38 PM UTC-4, William R. Buckley wrote: Cells are indeed controlled by software (as represented in wetware form ? i.e. DNA). It isn't really clear exactly what controls what in a living cell. I can say that cars are controlled by traffic signals, clocks, and calendars. To whatever we ascribe control, we only open up another level of unexplained control beneath it. What makes DNA readable to a ribosome? What makes anything readable to anything? Encoding and decoding, or application and abstraction, or addition and multiplication, ... My problem is that this implies that a pile of marbles know how many marbles they are. Not necessarily. A n-piles of marbles can emulate a m-pile of marbles. I could rig up a machine that weighs red marbles and then releases an equal weight of white marbles from a chute. Assuming calibrated marbles, there would be the same number, but no enumeration of the marbles has taken place. Nothing has been decoded, abstracted, or read, it's only a simple lever that opens a chute until the pan underneath it gets heavy enough to close the chute. There is no possibility of understanding at all, just a mindless enactment of behaviors. No mind, just machine. To be viable, comp has to explain why these words don't speak English. It is hard to follow your logic. Like someone told to you, a silicon robot could make the equivalent argument: explain me how a carbon based set of molecules can write english poems ... By your logic, I would have to explain how Bugs Bunny can't become a person too. It can. In some universal environment, it is quite possible that bugs bunny like beings become persons. As far as we know, we can't survive on any food that isn't carbon based. As far as we know, all living organisms need water to survive. On our planet, but you extrapolate too much. Why should this be the case in a comp universe? Open and hard problem, but a priori, life can takes different forms. I think that the problem is that you don't take your own view that physical matter is not primitive seriously. Like you, I see matter not as a stuff that independently exists, but as a projection of the exterior side of bodies making sense of each other - or the sense of selves making an exterior side of body sense to face each other. From that perspective it isn't the carbon that is meaningful, the carbon (H2O, sugars, amino acids, lipids really), the carbon is just the symptom, the shadow. Carbon is the command line 'OPEN BIOAVAILABILITY DICTIONARY which gives the thing access to the palette of histories associated with living organisms rather than astrophysical or geological events. This is not inconsistent with comp, but I don't find this plausible. In fact I believe that all civilisation in our physical universe end up into a giant topological computing machinery (a quark star, whose stability depends on sophisticated error tolerant sort of quantum computation) virtualising their past and future. Carbon might be just a step in life development. We might already be virtual and living in such a star. But more deeply, we are already all in arithmetic. Bruno Sense is irreducible. From the first person perspective. Yes. For machine's too. No software can control anything, even itself, unless something has the power to make sense of it as software and the power to execute that sense within itself as causally efficacious motive. This seems to me like justifying the persistence of the physical laws by invoking God. It is too quick gap filling for me, and does not explain anything, as relying on fuzzy vague use of words. I might find sense there, but in the context of criticizing mechanism, I find that suspicious, to be frank. I'm only explaining what comp overlooks. It presumes the possibility of computation without any explanation or understanding of what i/o is. ? How does the programming get in the program? Why does anything need to leave Platonia? OK. (comp entails indeed that we have never leave Platonia, but again, this beg
Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence
On 31 Aug 2012, at 17:12, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Bruno Marchal Are you saying that comp creates and controls all by means of some kind of code in some Pythagorean realm, where all is numbers ? That everything is computable ? Comp is a theory. It does nothing. You grasp it, or you don't, and this independently of being true or false, like any theory. The theory assume that the brain is emulable by a computer, and is natural as it is hard to find something not emulable by a computer without using special mathematical tools. So ontologically, eventually the natural numbers can be an acceptable universal realm, and in that sense, yes, all is numbers + the laws of addition and multiplication. But this does not entails that everything is computable, on the contrary, it is shown that the computable is rather exceptional, and even consciousness and matter appears to be non computable, because they arise from a phenomenon (first person indeterminacy) related to the fact that no machine can be know which machine she is, and still less which computations supports her, and those are infinitely distributed in arithmetic. In Leibniz, brute matter indeed exists just as in a text on solid state physics. And you can stub your toe on a rock. Like in comp. yet they do not exist ontologically. They exist epistemologically. Physics beomes literally a branch of numbers's biology or psychology or theology. But this is referred to by L as the phenomenal world. So it is like in comp. To L, the rock also exists in the world of ideas as a monad. Monads as ideas are more basic than matter, which according to L, can be infinitely divided. So to L, the ideal is real. Like in comp. I personally would use the uncertainty principle to rank ideas as real as opposed to particles. That might be quick. Anyway, with comp QM is NOT part of the hypothesis. It should be part of the conclusion, and that is what makes comp testable. Leibniz refers to our everyday world as containing well-established phenomena. I agree. I have no problem with Leibniz, I only find him hard to read. But I have studied the Platonists and the neoplatonists, (and Chinese and Indians thinkers) and comp asks for some backtracking to them. I tend to consider Plotinus as the most modern guy on the planet, and I appreciate the neoplatonists as they do not oppose the mystical inquiry to rationalism. They remain cold in hot water! Bruno Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 8/31/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so that everything could function. - Receiving the following content - From: Bruno Marchal Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-08-31, 10:27:35 Subject: Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence On 31 Aug 2012, at 14:08, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Friday, August 31, 2012 4:47:30 AM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 30 Aug 2012, at 20:09, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Thursday, August 30, 2012 1:11:55 PM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 29 Aug 2012, at 20:09, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Wednesday, August 29, 2012 1:22:38 PM UTC-4, William R. Buckley wrote: Cells are indeed controlled by software (as represented in wetware form � i.e. DNA). It isn't really clear exactly what controls what in a living cell. I can say that cars are controlled by traffic signals, clocks, and calendars. To whatever we ascribe control, we only open up another level of unexplained control beneath it. What makes DNA readable to a ribosome? What makes anything readable to anything? Encoding and decoding, or application and abstraction, or addition and multiplication, ... My problem is that this implies that a pile of marbles know how many marbles they are. Not necessarily. A n-piles of marbles can emulate a m-pile of marbles. I could rig up a machine that weighs red marbles and then releases an equal weight of white marbles from a chute. Assuming calibrated marbles, there would be the same number, but no enumeration of the marbles has taken place. Nothing has been decoded, abstracted, or read, it's only a simple lever that opens a chute until the pan underneath it gets heavy enough to close the chute. There is no possibility of understanding at all, just a mindless enactment of behaviors. No mind, just machine. To be viable, comp has to explain why these words don't speak English. It is hard to follow your logic. Like someone told to you, a silicon robot could make the equivalent argument: explain me how a carbon based set of molecules can write english poems ... By your logic, I would have to explain how Bugs Bunny can't become a person too. It can. In some universal environment, it is quite possible that bugs bunny like beings become persons. As far as we know, we can't survive on any food that isn't carbon based. As far as we know, all living organisms need water
Re: Re: Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence
On Fri, Aug 31, 2012 Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net wrote: what vital ingredient does a neurotransmitter chemical in a brain have that a electron in a chip does not have? ROGER: Life. Yes life, I was afraid you might say that. It may interest you to know that the Latin word for Life is vita, it's where the word vitalism comes from. And by the way, even creepy creationists don't think neurotransmitter chemicals are alive. John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence
On Fri, Aug 31, 2012 at 4:58 AM, Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net wrote: God is necessary because He runs the whole show. And when in His omniscience God asks Himself How is it that I can run the whole show? How is it that I am able to do anything that I want to do? How do my powers work?, what answer does He come up with? The religious have become adept at dodging that question with bafflegab but the fact remains that if you can't provide a substantive answer then the God theory explains absolutely positively nothing. John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Re: Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence
Hi John Clark No, presumably each software program is different. So the machine is still controlled in various ways by the programmer. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 8/30/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so everything could function. - Receiving the following content - From: John Clark Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-08-29, 13:42:26 Subject: Re: Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence On Tue, Aug 28, 2012 at 8:58 AM, Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net wrote: But computers can only do what their programs/hardware tell them to do. If computers only did what their programers told them to do their would be absolutely no point in building computers because they would know what the machines would end up doing before it even started working on the problem. And you can't solve problems without your hardware so I don't see why you expect a computer to. ? To be intelligent they have to be able to make choices?eyond that. We're back to invoking that mystical word choices as if it solves a philosophical absurdity. It does not. They should? be able to beat me at?oker even though they have no poker program.? Why?? You can't play poker if you don't know something about the game and neither can the computer. And you can cry sour grapes all you want about how the computer isn't really intelligent but it will do you no good because at the end of the day the fact remains that the computer has won all your money at poker and you're dead broke. I said it before I'll say it again, if computers don't have intelligence then they have something better. Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so everything could function. And I would say what's God's theory on how he is able to keep things functioning? ? John K Clark ? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence
Hi John Clark Vitalism is simply life. Otherwise an organism or whatever is dead. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 8/30/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so everything could function. - Receiving the following content - From: John Clark Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-08-29, 15:54:47 Subject: Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence On Tue, Aug 28, 2012? Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: do not think that accusations of vitalism add anything to the issue. It's really nothing but an ad hominem attack. It's not ad hominem if its true. We can't be talking about anything except vitalism and as one of the most enthusiastic apologists of the idea on this list I'm surprised you consider the term an insult. We use certain materials for computer chips and not hamsters Because (you think) hamsters have some sort of horseshit vital force that computer chips lack. ? organic chemistry, biology, zoology, and anthropology present dramatic qualitative breakthroughs in elaboration of sense. That's exactly what I'm talking about, vitalism; a idea that sucked when it was all the rage in the 18'th century and suckes even more so today.? This is not vitalism. How would your above idea be any different if it were vitalism??? Clearly you believe that organic chemistry has something that computer chips lack; perhaps you don't like the phrase vital life force for that difference and prefer some other euphemism, but it amounts to the same thing.? ? Programs can and do produce outcomes that are not directly anticipated by the programmer Absolutely!? but that these outcomes are trivial If they could only do trivial stuff computers would not have become a multitrillion dollar industry that has revolutionized the modern world. ? Conway's game of life can produce a new kind of glider, but it can't come up with the invention of Elvis Presley, Not true. You can make a Turing Machine out of things other than a long paper tape, you can make one out of the game of life by using the gliders to send information; and if you started with the correct initial conditions you could have a game of life Turing Machine instruct matter how to move so that the matter was indistinguishable from the flesh and blood king of rock and roll.? We only use materials which are subject to absolute control by outside intervention and behave in an absolutely automatic way to sustain those introduced controls. Living organisms are very much the opposite of that The opposite of? automatic way is random way. ? John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: RE: Re: Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence
Hi William R. Buckley OK, DNA is wetware If you like. But I am conscious, as are all living entities, and that's the 1p problem, as I understand it, even for a bacterium, and that cannot be solved because it is indeterminate. To be alive, one must be able to think on one's own, to be able to make choices on one's own, not choices made by soft- or wetware. To have intelligence, one must have a self, and software cannot even emulate that. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 8/30/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so everything could function. - Receiving the following content - From: William R. Buckley Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-08-29, 13:22:31 Subject: RE: Re: Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence Roger: It is my contention, quite to the dislike of biologists generally methinks, that DNA is a physical representation of program. Cells are indeed controlled by software (as represented in wetware form – i.e. DNA). wrb From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Roger Clough Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2012 10:07 AM To: everything-list Subject: Re: Re: Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence Hi Richard Ruquist Pre-ordained is a religious position And we aren't controlled by software. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 8/29/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so everything could function. - Receiving the following content - From: Richard Ruquist Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-08-29, 07:37:02 Subject: Re: Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence Roger, Do you think that humans do not function in accord with pre-ordained hardware and software? Richard On Wed, Aug 29, 2012 at 7:31 AM, Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net wrote: ROGER: Hi Bruno Marchal I don't agree. Machines must function according to their software and hardware, neither of which are their own. BRUNO: A robot can already answer questions ,and talk, about its own software and hardware. The language Smalltalk makes this explicit by a command self, but this can be done in all programming language by the use of a famous diagonalization trick, which I sum up often by: if Dx gives xx, then DD gives DD. DD gives a description of itself. You get self-duplicators and other self-referential construct by generalization of that constructive diagonal. A famous theorem by Kleene justifies its existence for all universal systems. ROGER:?ither the operation follows pre-established rules or it does not. If any operation follows rules, then it cannot come up with anything new, it is merely following instructions so that any such result can be traced back in principle to some algorithm. If any operation does not follow rules, it can only generate gibberish. Which is to say that synthetic statements cannot be generated by analytic thought. More below, but I will stop here for now. -- Did the robot design its hardware ? No. So it is constrained by the hardware. Did the robot write the original software that can self-construct (presumably according to some rules of construction) ? No. And so, machines cannot do anything not intended by the software author in his software program and constrained by the hardware. What you are missing here is the aspect of free will or at least partly free will. Intelligence is the ability to make choices on one's own. That means freely, of its own free will. Following no rules of logic. Transcending logic, not limited by it. BRUNO: Do you really believe that Mandelbrot expected the Mandelbrot set? He said itself that it has come as a surprise, despite years of observation of fractals in nature. ROGER: OK, it came intuitively, freely,?e did not arrive at it ?y logic, although it no doubt has its own logic. BRUNO: Very simple program (simple meaning few Ks), can lead to tremendously complex behavior. If you understand the basic of computer science, you understand that by building universal machine, we just don't know what we are doing. To keep them slaves will be the hard work, and the wrong work. This was the issue you brought up before, which at that time I thought was miraculous, the Holy Grail I had been seeking. But on reflection, I no longer believe that.?IMHO anything that??omputer does still must follow its own internal logic, contrained by its?ardware constraints and the constraint of its language, even if those calculations are of infinite complexity. Nothing magical can happen. There ought to be a theorem showing that that must be true. So machines cannot make autonomous decisions, they can only make decisions intended by the software programmer. BRUNO: You hope. Bruno Roger Clough
Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence
On Wednesday, August 29, 2012 3:54:49 PM UTC-4, John Clark wrote: On Tue, Aug 28, 2012 Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.com wrote: do not think that accusations of vitalism add anything to the issue. It's really nothing but an ad hominem attack. It's not ad hominem if its true. No, it doesn't matter what names you call someone, or whether you think they are true, the point is that name calling is not a logical argument and that it derails the discussion. We can't be talking about anything except vitalism and as one of the most enthusiastic apologists of the idea on this list I'm surprised you consider the term an insult. It is because that you say that I have something to do with defending vitalism that I know you don't understand my ideas. There is nothing special about organic matter that makes life possible. There is nothing about matter that makes anything possible. It is the sense that is made through matter that makes things possible, and that sense has qualitative potentials which are represented in particular ways. The way that biological qualities are represented in space and matter is as living cells, tissues, and living bodies. Being cell like doesn't make something alive, being alive leaves a cell like footprint. We use certain materials for computer chips and not hamsters Because (you think) hamsters have some sort of horseshit vital force that computer chips lack. Um, no. Because you can't control hamsters. I don't care if hamsters were made of cobalt and zinc, you can't make a computer out of them because they have their own agenda that you can't effectively control. I don't want to sink to your level, but if you continue with your false accusations and ad hominem horseshit, the I'm not going to bother with you. organic chemistry, biology, zoology, and anthropology present dramatic qualitative breakthroughs in elaboration of sense. That's exactly what I'm talking about, vitalism; a idea that sucked when it was all the rage in the 18'th century and suckes even more so today. Your opinions about what sucks might be interesting to some people. You should find them. To say that there is a qualitative breakthrough between biology and zoology is vitalist how? I would say that the qualitative bump from single cell to animal is even more significant than the bump from molecule to cell, or atom to molecule. I am talking about a punctuated equilibrium of scale and history, not a categorization of substances. This is not vitalism. How would your above idea be any different if it were vitalism?? Vitalism would be that there are some substances which are used by biological organisms and others that are not. There would be no bump from cell to animal to human being, or even from molecule to cell - vitalism would be that living cells are composed of life-giving molecules which are fundamentally different from non life-giving molecules. I'm not saying that at all. I am saying that you can have all the organic chemistry you like and you still won't get cells unless the molecules themselves figure out how to make them. I don't say that silicon can't make cells, only that they haven't so far, and that if we force silicon to act like cells, they won't be the same as organic cells which generate themselves naturally. Clearly you believe that organic chemistry has something that computer chips lack; Clearly you believe that there is nothing that a ham sandwich has that a bag of sand lacks. perhaps you don't like the phrase vital life force for that difference and prefer some other euphemism, but it amounts to the same thing. No, it is not the same thing in any way. I am specifically saying that there are no forces or fields in the universe. None. Not literally anyhow. No more than there is a force which stops my car at a red light. There is only sense: perception and participation on different levels of qualitative depth. Programs can and do produce outcomes that are not directly anticipated by the programmer Absolutely! but that these outcomes are trivial If they could only do trivial stuff computers would not have become a multitrillion dollar industry that has revolutionized the modern world. That's like saying 'If soft drinks were just carbonated sugar water with drugs in it, they wouldn't have become a multibillion dollar industry It's a fallacy and a misrepresentation of my comment. I didn't ever say that computers can only 'do trivial stuff', only that their capacity to exceed the constraints of their programming is trivial. Computers have capacities that far exceed our own, but only in some respects and not others. They are good at doing boring repetitive shit that we can't stand doing. Why are they good at it? Because they are unbelievably stupid. They will compute Pi to the last digit until they corrode just because someone accidentally
Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence
On Wednesday, August 29, 2012 4:43:38 PM UTC-4, Stephen Paul King wrote: On 8/29/2012 4:10 PM, John Clark wrote: On Tue, Aug 28, 2012 at 7:21 PM, Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.comjavascript: wrote: It's worth mentioning that Turing did not intend his test to imply that machines could think, only that the closest we could come would be to construct machines that would be good at playing The Imitation Game. No you are entirely incorrect, that is not worth mentioning. There is no difference between arithmetic and simulated arithmetic and no difference between thinking and imitation thinking. Incorrect about what? Are you saying that Turing asserted that machines could think, or that if we could not tell the difference between a machine and a living person that means there is no difference? I have used the example of a trashcan lid in a fast food place that says THANK YOU. And when a employee of a fast food restaurant says THANK YOU to the 47'th customer for the 47'th time in the last hour he puts about as much thought into the message as the trash can did. Absolutely. The repetition makes it...automatic, and therefore disingenuous, mechanical. Unconscious. John K Clark -- Hi Craig, John C. Has a very good point here. The difference is in the framing. Nah, his point is a conflation of appearances and reality. Like this sentence. It is not a thought. It is not speaking. I am using these empty forms to communicate my thought, my speaking. He is saying that if my computer posts these words without me typing them in then it must mean something just because nobody can tell the difference. It's the same as saying that a glass of water must be the same as a glass of distilled vinegar because they look the same. Craig -- Onward! Stephen http://webpages.charter.net/stephenk1/Outlaw/Outlaw.html -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/everything-list/-/ZA4PAkYbyhYJ. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
RE: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence
Consider that we begin with a living, biological cell. Next, we begin to remove systems and elements from the cell, and replace them with non-biological alternatives. For example, we replace the genome and nucleic acid production system with a nanotechnology systems that yields the same nucleic acids as products, in the same amounts over time as occurs in the natural cell. At what point does removal of some element yield irrevocable loss of state - it no longer lives but instead ceases all behavior, and returns to the non-living state? Whatever is that element that yields such irrevocable loss of state, that is a vital element. It is not a mystical or deistical definition. wrb From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Craig Weinberg Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2012 8:42 AM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Cc: johnkcl...@gmail.com Subject: Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence On Wednesday, August 29, 2012 3:54:49 PM UTC-4, John Clark wrote: On Tue, Aug 28, 2012 Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.com wrote: do not think that accusations of vitalism add anything to the issue. It's really nothing but an ad hominem attack. It's not ad hominem if its true. No, it doesn't matter what names you call someone, or whether you think they are true, the point is that name calling is not a logical argument and that it derails the discussion. We can't be talking about anything except vitalism and as one of the most enthusiastic apologists of the idea on this list I'm surprised you consider the term an insult. It is because that you say that I have something to do with defending vitalism that I know you don't understand my ideas. There is nothing special about organic matter that makes life possible. There is nothing about matter that makes anything possible. It is the sense that is made through matter that makes things possible, and that sense has qualitative potentials which are represented in particular ways. The way that biological qualities are represented in space and matter is as living cells, tissues, and living bodies. Being cell like doesn't make something alive, being alive leaves a cell like footprint. We use certain materials for computer chips and not hamsters Because (you think) hamsters have some sort of horseshit vital force that computer chips lack. Um, no. Because you can't control hamsters. I don't care if hamsters were made of cobalt and zinc, you can't make a computer out of them because they have their own agenda that you can't effectively control. I don't want to sink to your level, but if you continue with your false accusations and ad hominem horseshit, the I'm not going to bother with you. organic chemistry, biology, zoology, and anthropology present dramatic qualitative breakthroughs in elaboration of sense. That's exactly what I'm talking about, vitalism; a idea that sucked when it was all the rage in the 18'th century and suckes even more so today. Your opinions about what sucks might be interesting to some people. You should find them. To say that there is a qualitative breakthrough between biology and zoology is vitalist how? I would say that the qualitative bump from single cell to animal is even more significant than the bump from molecule to cell, or atom to molecule. I am talking about a punctuated equilibrium of scale and history, not a categorization of substances. This is not vitalism. How would your above idea be any different if it were vitalism?? Vitalism would be that there are some substances which are used by biological organisms and others that are not. There would be no bump from cell to animal to human being, or even from molecule to cell - vitalism would be that living cells are composed of life-giving molecules which are fundamentally different from non life-giving molecules. I'm not saying that at all. I am saying that you can have all the organic chemistry you like and you still won't get cells unless the molecules themselves figure out how to make them. I don't say that silicon can't make cells, only that they haven't so far, and that if we force silicon to act like cells, they won't be the same as organic cells which generate themselves naturally. Clearly you believe that organic chemistry has something that computer chips lack; Clearly you believe that there is nothing that a ham sandwich has that a bag of sand lacks. perhaps you don't like the phrase vital life force for that difference and prefer some other euphemism, but it amounts to the same thing. No, it is not the same thing in any way. I am specifically saying that there are no forces or fields in the universe. None. Not literally anyhow. No more than there is a force which stops my car at a red light. There is only sense: perception and participation on different levels of qualitative depth. Programs can and do
Re: Re: Re: Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence
Hi Richard Ruquist IMHO software alone cannot create life, because life is subjective. So there has to be something else inside the DNA besides software. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 8/30/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so everything could function. - Receiving the following content - From: Richard Ruquist Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-08-29, 16:27:17 Subject: Re: Re: Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence What is DNA if not software? On Wed, Aug 29, 2012 at 1:07 PM, Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net wrote: Hi Richard Ruquist Pre-ordained is a religious position And we aren't controlled by software. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 8/29/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so everything could function. - Receiving the following content - From: Richard Ruquist Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-08-29, 07:37:02 Subject: Re: Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence Roger, Do you think that humans do not function in accord with pre-ordained hardware and software? Richard On Wed, Aug 29, 2012 at 7:31 AM, Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net wrote: ROGER: Hi Bruno Marchal I don't agree. Machines must function according to their software and hardware, neither of which are their own. BRUNO: A robot can already answer questions ,and talk, about its own software and hardware. The language Smalltalk makes this explicit by a command self, but this can be done in all programming language by the use of a famous diagonalization trick, which I sum up often by: if Dx gives xx, then DD gives DD. DD gives a description of itself. You get self-duplicators and other self-referential construct by generalization of that constructive diagonal. A famous theorem by Kleene justifies its existence for all universal systems. ROGER:?ither the operation follows pre-established rules or it does not. If any operation follows rules, then it cannot come up with anything new, it is merely following instructions so that any such result can be traced back in principle to some algorithm. If any operation does not follow rules, it can only generate gibberish. Which is to say that synthetic statements cannot be generated by analytic thought. More below, but I will stop here for now. -- Did the robot design its hardware ? No. So it is constrained by the hardware. Did the robot write the original software that can self-construct (presumably according to some rules of construction) ? No. And so, machines cannot do anything not intended by the software author in his software program and constrained by the hardware. What you are missing here is the aspect of free will or at least partly free will. Intelligence is the ability to make choices on one's own. That means freely, of its own free will. Following no rules of logic. Transcending logic, not limited by it. BRUNO: Do you really believe that Mandelbrot expected the Mandelbrot set? He said itself that it has come as a surprise, despite years of observation of fractals in nature. ROGER: OK, it came intuitively, freely,?e did not arrive at it ?y logic, although it no doubt has its own logic. BRUNO: Very simple program (simple meaning few Ks), can lead to tremendously complex behavior. If you understand the basic of computer science, you understand that by building universal machine, we just don't know what we are doing. To keep them slaves will be the hard work, and the wrong work. This was the issue you brought up before, which at that time I thought was miraculous, the Holy Grail I had been seeking. But on reflection, I no longer believe that.?IMHO anything that??omputer does still must follow its own internal logic, contrained by its?ardware constraints and the constraint of its language, even if those calculations are of infinite complexity. Nothing magical can happen. There ought to be a theorem showing that that must be true. So machines cannot make autonomous decisions, they can only make decisions intended by the software programmer. BRUNO: You hope. Bruno Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 8/28/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so everything could function. - Receiving the following content - From: Bruno Marchal Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-08-27, 09:52:32 Subject: Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence On 27 Aug 2012, at 13:07, Roger Clough wrote: Hi meekerdb IMHO I don't think that computers can have intelligence because intelligence consists of at least one ability: the ability to make autonomous choices (choices completely of one's own). Computers can do nothing on their own, they can only do what softward and harfdware
RE: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence
Vitalism would be that there are some substances which are used by biological organisms and others that are not. There would be no bump from cell to animal to human being, or even from molecule to cell - vitalism would be that living cells are composed of life-giving molecules which are fundamentally different from non life-giving molecules. I'm not saying that at all. I am saying that you can have all the organic chemistry you like and you still won't get cells unless the molecules themselves figure out how to make them. I don't say that silicon can't make cells, only that they haven't so far, and that if we force silicon to act like cells, they won't be the same as organic cells which generate themselves naturally. They certainly won't be the same but, how will they differ? Do you claim that such a non-biological cell will not be able to perform each and every action that is performed by a biological cell? If you do make such claim, on what basis, what justification do you make that claim? Clearly you believe that organic chemistry has something that computer chips lack; Clearly you believe that there is nothing that a ham sandwich has that a bag of sand lacks. perhaps you don't like the phrase vital life force for that difference and prefer some other euphemism, but it amounts to the same thing. No, it is not the same thing in any way. I am specifically saying that there are no forces or fields in the universe. None. Not literally anyhow. No more than there is a force which stops my car at a red light. There is only sense: perception and participation on different levels of qualitative depth. Programs can and do produce outcomes that are not directly anticipated by the programmer Absolutely! but that these outcomes are trivial If they could only do trivial stuff computers would not have become a multitrillion dollar industry that has revolutionized the modern world. That's like saying 'If soft drinks were just carbonated sugar water with drugs in it, they wouldn't have become a multibillion dollar industry It's a fallacy and a misrepresentation of my comment. I didn't ever say that computers can only 'do trivial stuff', only that their capacity to exceed the constraints of their programming is trivial. Computers have capacities that far exceed our own, but only in some respects and not others. They are good at doing boring repetitive shit that we can't stand doing. Why are they good at it? Because they are unbelievably stupid. They will compute Pi to the last digit until they corrode just because someone accidentally pressed the enter key. Dumb. Not sentient. No awareness. They don't care, they don't feel, they don't understand...anything at all. Those are things that we are (supposedly) good at. This is a problematic statement. Consider Myhill's work on constructor machines, where their abilities to construct is unbounded. Each machine is able to construct a machine having just slightly greater construction capacity, ad infinitum. See the paper The Abstract Theory of Self-Reproduction as presented in Burks collection Essays on Cellular Automata, U of Illinois Press, 1970. Conway's game of life can produce a new kind of glider, but it can't come up with the invention of Elvis Presley, Not true. You can make a Turing Machine out of things other than a long paper tape, you can make one out of the game of life by using the gliders to send information; and if you started with the correct initial conditions you could have a game of life Turing Machine instruct matter how to move so that the matter was indistinguishable from the flesh and blood king of rock and roll. You are missing my point entirely. It is no trick to make Elvis from a machine which has the correct initial conditions to make Elvis. The point is that no amount of GoL transitions strung together will ever become anything other than what it is - recursively enumerated digits. There is nothing to generate any qualities other than that in the machine or the program - any patterns which we project on this data; 'gliders', 'cells', whatever, are nothing but simulacra...the projections of our own psyche. Thus my interest in constructing machines, not just Turing machines. Biological organisms are at root built on the backs of constructing machines. We only use materials which are subject to absolute control by outside intervention and behave in an absolutely automatic way to sustain those introduced controls. Living organisms are very much the opposite of that The opposite of automatic way is random way. That is your completely unsupported prejudice. The legal system of every human group that has ever persisted on Earth would disagree. The opposite of automatic, according to them, is voluntary or intentional. Welcome to planet Earth, where there are things we like to call living organisms who are able to do things 'on purpose' rather than randomly or
RE: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence
From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Craig Weinberg Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2012 8:50 AM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence On Wednesday, August 29, 2012 4:43:38 PM UTC-4, Stephen Paul King wrote: On 8/29/2012 4:10 PM, John Clark wrote: On Tue, Aug 28, 2012 at 7:21 PM, Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.com javascript: wrote: It's worth mentioning that Turing did not intend his test to imply that machines could think, only that the closest we could come would be to construct machines that would be good at playing The Imitation Game. No you are entirely incorrect, that is not worth mentioning. There is no difference between arithmetic and simulated arithmetic and no difference between thinking and imitation thinking. Incorrect about what? Are you saying that Turing asserted that machines could think, or that if we could not tell the difference between a machine and a living person that means there is no difference? I have used the example of a trashcan lid in a fast food place that says THANK YOU. And when a employee of a fast food restaurant says THANK YOU to the 47'th customer for the 47'th time in the last hour he puts about as much thought into the message as the trash can did. Absolutely. The repetition makes it...automatic, and therefore disingenuous, mechanical. Unconscious. John K Clark -- Hi Craig, John C. Has a very good point here. The difference is in the framing. Nah, his point is a conflation of appearances and reality. Like this sentence. It is not a thought. It is not speaking. I am using these empty forms to communicate my thought, my speaking. He is saying that if my computer posts these words without me typing them in then it must mean something just because nobody can tell the difference. It's the same as saying that a glass of water must be the same as a glass of distilled vinegar because they look the same. Yes, the conclusion is errant. However, whether they are or are not the same requires further inquiry. Neither side has yet enough information by which to decide with certainty. wrb Craig -- Onward! Stephen http://webpages.charter.net/stephenk1/Outlaw/Outlaw.html -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/everything-list/-/ZA4PAkYbyhYJ. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
RE: Re: Re: Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence
This statement is blatant vitalism, and in the traditional (ancient) sense: So there has to be something else inside the DNA besides software. DNA has nothing inside of it that is critical to the message it represents. wrb From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Roger Clough Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2012 9:13 AM To: everything-list Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence Hi Richard Ruquist IMHO software alone cannot create life, because life is subjective. So there has to be something else inside the DNA besides software. Roger Clough, mailto:rclo...@verizon.net rclo...@verizon.net 8/30/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so everything could function. - Receiving the following content - From: Richard Ruquist mailto:yann...@gmail.com Receiver: everything-list mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com Time: 2012-08-29, 16:27:17 Subject: Re: Re: Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence What is DNA if not software? On Wed, Aug 29, 2012 at 1:07 PM, Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net wrote: Hi Richard Ruquist Pre-ordained is a religious position And we aren't controlled by software. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 8/29/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so everything could function. - Receiving the following content - From: Richard Ruquist mailto:yann...@gmail.com Receiver: everything-list mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com Time: 2012-08-29, 07:37:02 Subject: Re: Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence Roger, Do you think that humans do not function in accord with pre-ordained hardware and software? Richard On Wed, Aug 29, 2012 at 7:31 AM, Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net wrote: ROGER: Hi Bruno Marchal I don't agree. Machines must function according to their software and hardware, neither of which are their own. BRUNO: A robot can already answer questions ,and talk, about its own software and hardware. The language Smalltalk makes this explicit by a command self, but this can be done in all programming language by the use of a famous diagonalization trick, which I sum up often by: if Dx gives xx, then DD gives DD. DD gives a description of itself. You get self-duplicators and other self-referential construct by generalization of that constructive diagonal. A famous theorem by Kleene justifies its existence for all universal systems. ROGER:燛ither the operation follows pre-established rules or it does not. If any operation follows rules, then it cannot come up with anything new, it is merely following instructions so that any such result can be traced back in principle to some algorithm. If any operation does not follow rules, it can only generate gibberish. Which is to say that synthetic statements cannot be generated by analytic thought. More below, but I will stop here for now. -- Did the robot design its hardware ? No. So it is constrained by the hardware. Did the robot write the original software that can self-construct (presumably according to some rules of construction) ? No. And so, machines cannot do anything not intended by the software author in his software program and constrained by the hardware. What you are missing here is the aspect of free will or at least partly free will. Intelligence is the ability to make choices on one's own. That means freely, of its own free will. Following no rules of logic. Transcending logic, not limited by it. BRUNO: Do you really believe that Mandelbrot expected the Mandelbrot set? He said itself that it has come as a surprise, despite years of observation of fractals in nature. ROGER: OK, it came intuitively, freely,爃e did not arrive at it 燽y logic, although it no doubt has its own logic. BRUNO: Very simple program (simple meaning few Ks), can lead to tremendously complex behavior. If you understand the basic of computer science, you understand that by building universal machine, we just don't know what we are doing. To keep them slaves will be the hard work, and the wrong work. This was the issue you brought up before, which at that time I thought was miraculous, the Holy Grail I had been seeking. But on reflection, I no longer believe that.牋IMHO anything that燼燾omputer does still must follow its own internal logic, contrained by its爃ardware constraints and the constraint of its language, even if those calculations are of infinite complexity. Nothing magical can happen. There ought to be a theorem showing that that must be true. So machines cannot make autonomous decisions, they can only make decisions intended by the software programmer
Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence
On 29 Aug 2012, at 20:09, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Wednesday, August 29, 2012 1:22:38 PM UTC-4, William R. Buckley wrote: Cells are indeed controlled by software (as represented in wetware form – i.e. DNA). It isn't really clear exactly what controls what in a living cell. I can say that cars are controlled by traffic signals, clocks, and calendars. To whatever we ascribe control, we only open up another level of unexplained control beneath it. What makes DNA readable to a ribosome? What makes anything readable to anything? Encoding and decoding, or application and abstraction, or addition and multiplication, ... Sense is irreducible. From the first person perspective. Yes. For machine's too. No software can control anything, even itself, unless something has the power to make sense of it as software and the power to execute that sense within itself as causally efficacious motive. This seems to me like justifying the persistence of the physical laws by invoking God. It is too quick gap filling for me, and does not explain anything, as relying on fuzzy vague use of words. I might find sense there, but in the context of criticizing mechanism, I find that suspicious, to be frank. Bruno http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence
On Thursday, August 30, 2012 1:11:55 PM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 29 Aug 2012, at 20:09, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Wednesday, August 29, 2012 1:22:38 PM UTC-4, William R. Buckley wrote: Cells are indeed controlled by software (as represented in wetware form – i.e. DNA). It isn't really clear exactly what controls what in a living cell. I can say that cars are controlled by traffic signals, clocks, and calendars. To whatever we ascribe control, we only open up another level of unexplained control beneath it. What makes DNA readable to a ribosome? What makes anything readable to anything? Encoding and decoding, or application and abstraction, or addition and multiplication, ... My problem is that this implies that a pile of marbles know how many marbles they are. I could rig up a machine that weighs red marbles and then releases an equal weight of white marbles from a chute. Assuming calibrated marbles, there would be the same number, but no enumeration of the marbles has taken place. Nothing has been decoded, abstracted, or read, it's only a simple lever that opens a chute until the pan underneath it gets heavy enough to close the chute. There is no possibility of understanding at all, just a mindless enactment of behaviors. No mind, just machine. To be viable, comp has to explain why these words don't speak English. Sense is irreducible. From the first person perspective. Yes. For machine's too. No software can control anything, even itself, unless something has the power to make sense of it as software and the power to execute that sense within itself as causally efficacious motive. This seems to me like justifying the persistence of the physical laws by invoking God. It is too quick gap filling for me, and does not explain anything, as relying on fuzzy vague use of words. I might find sense there, but in the context of criticizing mechanism, I find that suspicious, to be frank. I'm only explaining what comp overlooks. It presumes the possibility of computation without any explanation or understanding of what i/o is. Why does anything need to leave Platonia? How does encoding come to be a possibility and why should it be useful in any way (given a universal language of arithmetic truth). Comp doesn't account for realism, only a toy model of realism which is then passed off as genuine by lack of counterfactual proof - but proof defined only by the narrow confines of the toy model itself. It is the blind man proving that nobody can see by demanding that sight be put into the terms of blindness. Craig Bruno http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/everything-list/-/baW65jd5eg4J. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
RE: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence
Bruno: I rather take issue with the notion that the living cell is not controlled by the genome. As biosemioticians (like Marcello Barbieri) teach us, there are a number of codes used in biological context, and each has a governing or controlling function within the corresponding context. The genome is clearly at the top of this hierarchy, with Natural Selection and mutational variation being higher-level controls on genome. Readability I think is well understood in terms of interactions between classes of molecules - ATP generation for one is rather well understood these days. Programmers (well experienced professionals) are especially sensitive to context issues. wrb From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Bruno Marchal Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2012 10:12 AM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence On 29 Aug 2012, at 20:09, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Wednesday, August 29, 2012 1:22:38 PM UTC-4, William R. Buckley wrote: Cells are indeed controlled by software (as represented in wetware form - i.e. DNA). It isn't really clear exactly what controls what in a living cell. I can say that cars are controlled by traffic signals, clocks, and calendars. To whatever we ascribe control, we only open up another level of unexplained control beneath it. What makes DNA readable to a ribosome? What makes anything readable to anything? Encoding and decoding, or application and abstraction, or addition and multiplication, ... Sense is irreducible. From the first person perspective. Yes. For machine's too. No software can control anything, even itself, unless something has the power to make sense of it as software and the power to execute that sense within itself as causally efficacious motive. This seems to me like justifying the persistence of the physical laws by invoking God. It is too quick gap filling for me, and does not explain anything, as relying on fuzzy vague use of words. I might find sense there, but in the context of criticizing mechanism, I find that suspicious, to be frank. Bruno http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence
On Thu, Aug 30, 2012 at 12:39 PM, Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net wrote: The self is subjective and I can think of no way that objective machine codes and silicon chips could produce that. That implies that you CAN think of a way that a bunch of cells in your skull squirting out neurotransmitter chemicals can produce subjectivity. What is that way, what vital ingredient does a neurotransmitter chemical in a brain have that a electron in a chip does not have? The self must be alive and conscious, two functions impossible to implement on silicon in binary code. Then silicon is lacking something vital that carbon and hydrogen atoms have. In other words you believe in vitalism. I don't. Personally I believe that life cannot be created, it simply is/was/and ever shall be, beyond spacetime Translated from the original bafflegab: Life does not exist in a place or at a time. And that is clearly incorrect. So the universe and all life was produced as a thought in the mind of God If you can't explain how God did this then you really haven't explained anything at all and haven't given God very much to do, He must be infinitely bored. If you don't like the word God replace it above with supreme monad or perhaps cosmic mind. How about replacing it with a big I don't know. Not knowing is a perfectly respectable state to be in, unlike pretending to explained something when you really have not. John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence
On Thu, Aug 30, 2012 at 11:41 AM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.comwrote: the point is that name calling is not a logical argument and that it derails the discussion. Yes, but I'm surprised you think that's name calling. I'd be insulted if somebody called me a vitalist but I don't see why you should be. if you continue with your false accusations and ad hominem horseshit, the I'm not going to bother with you. What a tragedy that would be. I would say that the qualitative bump from single cell to animal is even more significant than the bump from molecule to cell, or atom to molecule. And I would say that the only difference between a bunch of hydrogen carbon and oxygen atoms, amino acids, proteins, cells, and Craig Weinberg, is the position of the atoms. Vitalism would be that there are some substances which are used by biological organisms and others that are not. Like how computers can never be conscious regardless of what sort of brilliant behavior they display because they are lacking in something vital. In other words vitalism. vitalism would be that living cells are composed of life-giving molecules which are fundamentally different from non life-giving molecules. Like how cells are fundamentally different from computer chips because cells have something vital the chips lack. In other words vitalism. I'm not saying that at all. Bullshit. Clearly you believe that there is nothing that a ham sandwich has that a bag of sand lacks. To turn a bag of sand into a ham sandwich you'd need 2 things, information on where the protons and neutrons should go and energy to get the job done. And come to think of it you might not even need much energy, the silicon nucleus in sand has more energy than the carbon and hydrogen nucleus in the ham sandwich. They [computers] are good at doing boring repetitive shit that we can't stand doing. Things we can't stand doing, like playing the games of checkers, chess, poker and Jeopardy! The point is that no amount of GoL transitions strung together will ever become anything other than what it is - recursively enumerated digits. There is nothing to generate any qualities other than that in the machine or the program - any patterns which we project on this data; 'gliders', 'cells', whatever, are nothing but simulacra So the gliders in the Game Of Life are just simulacra but the neurotransmitter chemicals in the brain (which serve the same purpose) are not simulacra because the chemicals have something vital that the gliders lack. In other words vitalism. The opposite of automatic way is random way. That is your completely unsupported prejudice. A prejudice that all men of learning have had since the days of Aristotle, that X is Y or X is not Y. The only reason you would challenge this fundamental axiom of logic is because that is the only way you can get your looney ideas to work. If you abandon logic you can get any idea to work. The legal system of [...] I'm talking about logic, what on earth does the law have to do with logic? Do you expect to learn how the universe operates from lawyers? John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence
ROGER: Hi Bruno Marchal I don't agree. Machines must function according to their software and hardware, neither of which are their own. BRUNO: A robot can already answer questions ,and talk, about its own software and hardware. The language Smalltalk makes this explicit by a command self, but this can be done in all programming language by the use of a famous diagonalization trick, which I sum up often by: if Dx gives xx, then DD gives DD. DD gives a description of itself. You get self-duplicators and other self-referential construct by generalization of that constructive diagonal. A famous theorem by Kleene justifies its existence for all universal systems. ROGER: Either the operation follows pre-established rules or it does not. If any operation follows rules, then it cannot come up with anything new, it is merely following instructions so that any such result can be traced back in principle to some algorithm. If any operation does not follow rules, it can only generate gibberish. Which is to say that synthetic statements cannot be generated by analytic thought. More below, but I will stop here for now. -- Did the robot design its hardware ? No. So it is constrained by the hardware. Did the robot write the original software that can self-construct (presumably according to some rules of construction) ? No. And so, machines cannot do anything not intended by the software author in his software program and constrained by the hardware. What you are missing here is the aspect of free will or at least partly free will. Intelligence is the ability to make choices on one's own. That means freely, of its own free will. Following no rules of logic. Transcending logic, not limited by it. BRUNO: Do you really believe that Mandelbrot expected the Mandelbrot set? He said itself that it has come as a surprise, despite years of observation of fractals in nature. ROGER: OK, it came intuitively, freely, he did not arrive at it by logic, although it no doubt has its own logic. BRUNO: Very simple program (simple meaning few Ks), can lead to tremendously complex behavior. If you understand the basic of computer science, you understand that by building universal machine, we just don't know what we are doing. To keep them slaves will be the hard work, and the wrong work. This was the issue you brought up before, which at that time I thought was miraculous, the Holy Grail I had been seeking. But on reflection, I no longer believe that. IMHO anything that a computer does still must follow its own internal logic, contrained by its hardware constraints and the constraint of its language, even if those calculations are of infinite complexity. Nothing magical can happen. There ought to be a theorem showing that that must be true. So machines cannot make autonomous decisions, they can only make decisions intended by the software programmer. BRUNO: You hope. Bruno Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 8/28/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so everything could function. - Receiving the following content - From: Bruno Marchal Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-08-27, 09:52:32 Subject: Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence On 27 Aug 2012, at 13:07, Roger Clough wrote: Hi meekerdb IMHO I don't think that computers can have intelligence because intelligence consists of at least one ability: the ability to make autonomous choices (choices completely of one's own). Computers can do nothing on their own, they can only do what softward and harfdware tells them to do. Another, closely related, reason, is that there must be an agent that does the choosing, and IMHO the agent has to be separate from the system. Godel, perhaps, I speculate. I will never insist on this enough. All the G?el's stuff shows that machines are very well suited for autonomy. In a sense, most of applied computer science is used to help controlling what can really become uncontrollable and too much autonomous, a bit like children education. Computers are not stupid, we work a lot for making them so. Bruno Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 8/27/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so everything could function. - Receiving the following content - From: meekerdb Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-08-26, 14:56:29 Subject: Re: Simple proof that our intelligence transcends that of computers On 8/26/2012 10:25 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 25 Aug 2012, at 12:35, Jason Resch wrote: I agree different implementations of intelligence have different capabilities and roles, but I think computers are general enough to replicate any intelligence (so long as infinities or true randomness
Re: Re: Re: Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence
Hi Stathis Papaioannou Indeed, only I can know that I actually feel pain. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 8/29/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so everything could function. - Receiving the following content - From: Stathis Papaioannou Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-08-28, 09:39:09 Subject: Re: Re: Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence On Tue, Aug 28, 2012 at 11:11 PM, Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net wrote: Hi Stathis Papaioannou Yes, hardware and software cannot feel anything because there is no subject to actually feel anything. There is no I , as in I feel that, there is only sensors and reactive mechanisms. A computer could make the same claim about Roger Clough, who lacks the special magic of silicon semiconductors and therefore cannot possibly feel anything. He might cry out in pain when stuck with a pin but that's just an act with no real feeling behind it. -- Stathis Papaioannou -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence
Roger, Do you think that humans do not function in accord with pre-ordained hardware and software? Richard On Wed, Aug 29, 2012 at 7:31 AM, Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net wrote: ROGER: Hi Bruno Marchal I don't agree. Machines must function according to their software and hardware, neither of which are their own. BRUNO: A robot can already answer questions ,and talk, about its own software and hardware. The language Smalltalk makes this explicit by a command self, but this can be done in all programming language by the use of a famous diagonalization trick, which I sum up often by: if Dx gives xx, then DD gives DD. DD gives a description of itself. You get self-duplicators and other self-referential construct by generalization of that constructive diagonal. A famous theorem by Kleene justifies its existence for all universal systems. ROGER: Either the operation follows pre-established rules or it does not. If any operation follows rules, then it cannot come up with anything new, it is merely following instructions so that any such result can be traced back in principle to some algorithm. If any operation does not follow rules, it can only generate gibberish. Which is to say that synthetic statements cannot be generated by analytic thought. More below, but I will stop here for now. -- Did the robot design its hardware ? No. So it is constrained by the hardware. Did the robot write the original software that can self-construct (presumably according to some rules of construction) ? No. And so, machines cannot do anything not intended by the software author in his software program and constrained by the hardware. What you are missing here is the aspect of free will or at least partly free will. Intelligence is the ability to make choices on one's own. That means freely, of its own free will. Following no rules of logic. Transcending logic, not limited by it. BRUNO: Do you really believe that Mandelbrot expected the Mandelbrot set? He said itself that it has come as a surprise, despite years of observation of fractals in nature. ROGER: OK, it came intuitively, freely, he did not arrive at it by logic, although it no doubt has its own logic. BRUNO: Very simple program (simple meaning few Ks), can lead to tremendously complex behavior. If you understand the basic of computer science, you understand that by building universal machine, we just don't know what we are doing. To keep them slaves will be the hard work, and the wrong work. This was the issue you brought up before, which at that time I thought was miraculous, the Holy Grail I had been seeking. But on reflection, I no longer believe that. IMHO anything that a computer does still must follow its own internal logic, contrained by its hardware constraints and the constraint of its language, even if those calculations are of infinite complexity. Nothing magical can happen. There ought to be a theorem showing that that must be true. So machines cannot make autonomous decisions, they can only make decisions intended by the software programmer. BRUNO: You hope. Bruno Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net +rclo...@verizon.net 8/28/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so everything could function. - Receiving the following content - From: Bruno Marchal Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-08-27, 09:52:32 Subject: Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence On 27 Aug 2012, at 13:07, Roger Clough wrote: Hi meekerdb IMHO I don't think that computers can have intelligence because intelligence consists of at least one ability: the ability to make autonomous choices (choices completely of one's own). Computers can do nothing on their own, they can only do what softward and harfdware tells them to do. Another, closely related, reason, is that there must be an agent that does the choosing, and IMHO the agent has to be separate from the system. Godel, perhaps, I speculate. I will never insist on this enough. All the G?el's stuff shows that machines are very well suited for autonomy. In a sense, most of applied computer science is used to help controlling what can really become uncontrollable and too much autonomous, a bit like children education. Computers are not stupid, we work a lot for making them so. Bruno Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net +rclo...@verizon.net 8/27/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so everything could function. - Receiving the following content - From: meekerdb Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-08-26, 14:56:29 Subject: Re: Simple proof that our intelligence transcends that of computers On 8/26/2012 10:25 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 25 Aug 2012, at 12:35
Re: Re: Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence
Hi Stathis Papaioannou \ Good point. The argument fails. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 8/29/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so everything could function. - Receiving the following content - From: Stathis Papaioannou Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-08-28, 09:35:36 Subject: Re: Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence On Tue, Aug 28, 2012 at 11:06 PM, Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net wrote: Hi Stathis Papaioannou You are talking about a robot, not a human. At the very least, there is the problem of first person indeterminancy. Nobody (especially the programmer) can really know for example if I am an atheist or theist. For example, I might pretend to be an atheist then change my mind. You assume the thing that you set out to prove: that a computer cannot be intelligent or conscious. -- Stathis Papaioannou -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Re: Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence
Hi Richard Ruquist Pre-ordained is a religious position And we aren't controlled by software. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 8/29/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so everything could function. - Receiving the following content - From: Richard Ruquist Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-08-29, 07:37:02 Subject: Re: Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence Roger, Do you think that humans do not function in accord with pre-ordained hardware and software? Richard On Wed, Aug 29, 2012 at 7:31 AM, Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net wrote: ROGER: Hi Bruno Marchal I don't agree. Machines must function according to their software and hardware, neither of which are their own. BRUNO: A robot can already answer questions ,and talk, about its own software and hardware. The language Smalltalk makes this explicit by a command self, but this can be done in all programming language by the use of a famous diagonalization trick, which I sum up often by: if Dx gives xx, then DD gives DD. DD gives a description of itself. You get self-duplicators and other self-referential construct by generalization of that constructive diagonal. A famous theorem by Kleene justifies its existence for all universal systems. ? ROGER:?ither the operation follows pre-established rules or it does not. ? If any operation follows rules, then it cannot come up with anything new, it is merely following instructions so that any such result can be traced back in principle to some algorithm. ? If any operation does not follow rules, it can only generate gibberish. Which is to say that synthetic statements cannot be generated by analytic thought. More below, but I will stop here for now. -- Did the robot design its hardware ? No. So it is constrained by the hardware. Did the robot write the original software that can self-construct (presumably according to some rules of construction) ? No. And so, machines cannot do anything not intended by the software author in his software program and constrained by the hardware. What you are missing here is the aspect of free will or at least partly free will. Intelligence is the ability to make choices on one's own. That means freely, of its own free will. Following no rules of logic. Transcending logic, not limited by it. BRUNO:? Do you really believe that Mandelbrot expected the Mandelbrot set? He said itself that it has come as a surprise, despite years of observation of fractals in nature. ? ROGER:? OK, it came intuitively, freely,?e did not arrive at it ?y logic, although it no doubt has its own logic. BRUNO: Very simple program (simple meaning few Ks), can lead to tremendously complex behavior. If you understand the basic of computer science, you understand that by building universal machine, we just don't know what we are doing. To keep them slaves will be the hard work, and the wrong work. ? This was the issue you brought up before, which at that time I thought was miraculous, the Holy Grail I had been seeking. But on reflection, I no longer believe that.?IMHO anything that??omputer does still must follow its own internal logic, contrained by its?ardware constraints and the constraint of its language, even if those calculations are of infinite complexity. Nothing magical can happen. There ought to be a theorem showing that that must be true.? So machines cannot make autonomous decisions, they can only make decisions intended by the software programmer. BRUNO: You hope. Bruno Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 8/28/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so everything could function. - Receiving the following content - From: Bruno Marchal Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-08-27, 09:52:32 Subject: Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence On 27 Aug 2012, at 13:07, Roger Clough wrote: Hi meekerdb IMHO I don't think that computers can have intelligence because intelligence consists of at least one ability: the ability to make autonomous choices (choices completely of one's own). Computers can do nothing on their own, they can only do what softward and harfdware tells them to do. Another, closely related, reason, is that there must be an agent that does the choosing, and IMHO the agent has to be separate from the system. Godel, perhaps, I speculate. I will never insist on this enough. All the G?el's stuff shows that machines are very well suited for autonomy. In a sense, most of applied computer science is used to help controlling what can really become uncontrollable and too much autonomous, a bit like children education. Computers are not stupid, we work a lot for making them so. Bruno Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 8
RE: Re: Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence
Roger: It is my contention, quite to the dislike of biologists generally methinks, that DNA is a physical representation of program. Cells are indeed controlled by software (as represented in wetware form – i.e. DNA). wrb From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Roger Clough Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2012 10:07 AM To: everything-list Subject: Re: Re: Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence Hi Richard Ruquist Pre-ordained is a religious position And we aren't controlled by software. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 8/29/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so everything could function. - Receiving the following content - From: Richard Ruquist mailto:yann...@gmail.com Receiver: everything-list mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com Time: 2012-08-29, 07:37:02 Subject: Re: Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence Roger, Do you think that humans do not function in accord with pre-ordained hardware and software? Richard On Wed, Aug 29, 2012 at 7:31 AM, Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net wrote: ROGER: Hi Bruno Marchal I don't agree. Machines must function according to their software and hardware, neither of which are their own. BRUNO: A robot can already answer questions ,and talk, about its own software and hardware. The language Smalltalk makes this explicit by a command self, but this can be done in all programming language by the use of a famous diagonalization trick, which I sum up often by: if Dx gives xx, then DD gives DD. DD gives a description of itself. You get self-duplicators and other self-referential construct by generalization of that constructive diagonal. A famous theorem by Kleene justifies its existence for all universal systems. � ROGER:燛ither the operation follows pre-established rules or it does not. � If any operation follows rules, then it cannot come up with anything new, it is merely following instructions so that any such result can be traced back in principle to some algorithm. � If any operation does not follow rules, it can only generate gibberish. Which is to say that synthetic statements cannot be generated by analytic thought. More below, but I will stop here for now. -- Did the robot design its hardware ? No. So it is constrained by the hardware. Did the robot write the original software that can self-construct (presumably according to some rules of construction) ? No. And so, machines cannot do anything not intended by the software author in his software program and constrained by the hardware. What you are missing here is the aspect of free will or at least partly free will. Intelligence is the ability to make choices on one's own. That means freely, of its own free will. Following no rules of logic. Transcending logic, not limited by it. BRUNO:� Do you really believe that Mandelbrot expected the Mandelbrot set? He said itself that it has come as a surprise, despite years of observation of fractals in nature. � ROGER:� OK, it came intuitively, freely,爃e did not arrive at it 燽y logic, although it no doubt has its own logic. BRUNO: Very simple program (simple meaning few Ks), can lead to tremendously complex behavior. If you understand the basic of computer science, you understand that by building universal machine, we just don't know what we are doing. To keep them slaves will be the hard work, and the wrong work. � This was the issue you brought up before, which at that time I thought was miraculous, the Holy Grail I had been seeking. But on reflection, I no longer believe that.牋IMHO anything that燼燾omputer does still must follow its own internal logic, contrained by its爃ardware constraints and the constraint of its language, even if those calculations are of infinite complexity. Nothing magical can happen. There ought to be a theorem showing that that must be true.� So machines cannot make autonomous decisions, they can only make decisions intended by the software programmer. BRUNO: You hope. Bruno Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net mailto:+rclo...@verizon.net 8/28/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so everything could function. - Receiving the following content - From: Bruno Marchal Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-08-27, 09:52:32 Subject: Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence On 27 Aug 2012, at 13:07, Roger Clough wrote: Hi meekerdb IMHO I don't think that computers can have intelligence because intelligence consists of at least one ability: the ability to make autonomous choices (choices completely of one's own). Computers can do nothing on their own, they can only
Re: Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence
On Tue, Aug 28, 2012 at 8:58 AM, Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net wrote: But computers can only do what their programs/hardware tell them to do. If computers only did what their programers told them to do their would be absolutely no point in building computers because they would know what the machines would end up doing before it even started working on the problem. And you can't solve problems without your hardware so I don't see why you expect a computer to. To be intelligent they have to be able to make choices beyond that. We're back to invoking that mystical word choices as if it solves a philosophical absurdity. It does not. They should be able to beat me at poker even though they have no poker program. Why? You can't play poker if you don't know something about the game and neither can the computer. And you can cry sour grapes all you want about how the computer isn't really intelligent but it will do you no good because at the end of the day the fact remains that the computer has won all your money at poker and you're dead broke. I said it before I'll say it again, if computers don't have intelligence then they have something better. Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so everything could function. And I would say what's God's theory on how he is able to keep things functioning? John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Re: Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence
On Wednesday, August 29, 2012 1:22:38 PM UTC-4, William R. Buckley wrote: Cells are indeed controlled by software (as represented in wetware form – i.e. DNA). It isn't really clear exactly what controls what in a living cell. I can say that cars are controlled by traffic signals, clocks, and calendars. To whatever we ascribe control, we only open up another level of unexplained control beneath it. What makes DNA readable to a ribosome? What makes anything readable to anything? Sense is irreducible. No software can control anything, even itself, unless something has the power to make sense of it as software and the power to execute that sense within itself as causally efficacious motive. Craig -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/everything-list/-/rs-VsPOMIRsJ. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence
On Tue, Aug 28, 2012 Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: do not think that accusations of vitalism add anything to the issue. It's really nothing but an ad hominem attack. It's not ad hominem if its true. We can't be talking about anything except vitalism and as one of the most enthusiastic apologists of the idea on this list I'm surprised you consider the term an insult. We use certain materials for computer chips and not hamsters Because (you think) hamsters have some sort of horseshit vital force that computer chips lack. organic chemistry, biology, zoology, and anthropology present dramatic qualitative breakthroughs in elaboration of sense. That's exactly what I'm talking about, vitalism; a idea that sucked when it was all the rage in the 18'th century and suckes even more so today. This is not vitalism. How would your above idea be any different if it were vitalism?? Clearly you believe that organic chemistry has something that computer chips lack; perhaps you don't like the phrase vital life force for that difference and prefer some other euphemism, but it amounts to the same thing. Programs can and do produce outcomes that are not directly anticipated by the programmer Absolutely! but that these outcomes are trivial If they could only do trivial stuff computers would not have become a multitrillion dollar industry that has revolutionized the modern world. Conway's game of life can produce a new kind of glider, but it can't come up with the invention of Elvis Presley, Not true. You can make a Turing Machine out of things other than a long paper tape, you can make one out of the game of life by using the gliders to send information; and if you started with the correct initial conditions you could have a game of life Turing Machine instruct matter how to move so that the matter was indistinguishable from the flesh and blood king of rock and roll. We only use materials which are subject to absolute control by outside intervention and behave in an absolutely automatic way to sustain those introduced controls. Living organisms are very much the opposite of that The opposite of automatic way is random way. John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence
On Tue, Aug 28, 2012 at 7:21 PM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.comwrote: It's worth mentioning that Turing did not intend his test to imply that machines could think, only that the closest we could come would be to construct machines that would be good at playing The Imitation Game. No you are entirely incorrect, that is not worth mentioning. There is no difference between arithmetic and simulated arithmetic and no difference between thinking and imitation thinking. I have used the example of a trashcan lid in a fast food place that says THANK YOU. And when a employee of a fast food restaurant says THANK YOU to the 47'th customer for the 47'th time in the last hour he puts about as much thought into the message as the trash can did. John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence
On Wed, Aug 29, 2012 at 8:07 AM, Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net wrote: If a computer could compute new knowledge, how would you know whether it is new or not, or even what it means ? This is called the translation problem. If a person could create new knowledge, how would you know whether it is new or not, or even what it means? This is called the bullshit problem. John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Re: Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence
What is DNA if not software? On Wed, Aug 29, 2012 at 1:07 PM, Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net wrote: Hi Richard Ruquist Pre-ordained is a religious position And we aren't controlled by software. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 8/29/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so everything could function. - Receiving the following content - *From:* Richard Ruquist yann...@gmail.com *Receiver:* everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com *Time:* 2012-08-29, 07:37:02 *Subject:* Re: Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence Roger, Do you think that humans do not function in accord with pre-ordained hardware and software? Richard On Wed, Aug 29, 2012 at 7:31 AM, Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net wrote: ROGER: Hi Bruno Marchal I don't agree. Machines must function according to their software and hardware, neither of which are their own. BRUNO: A robot can already answer questions ,and talk, about its own software and hardware. The language Smalltalk makes this explicit by a command self, but this can be done in all programming language by the use of a famous diagonalization trick, which I sum up often by: if Dx gives xx, then DD gives DD. DD gives a description of itself. You get self-duplicators and other self-referential construct by generalization of that constructive diagonal. A famous theorem by Kleene justifies its existence for all universal systems. � ROGER:燛ither the operation follows pre-established rules or it does not. � If any operation follows rules, then it cannot come up with anything new, it is merely following instructions so that any such result can be traced back in principle to some algorithm. � If any operation does not follow rules, it can only generate gibberish. Which is to say that synthetic statements cannot be generated by analytic thought. More below, but I will stop here for now. -- Did the robot design its hardware ? No. So it is constrained by the hardware. Did the robot write the original software that can self-construct (presumably according to some rules of construction) ? No. And so, machines cannot do anything not intended by the software author in his software program and constrained by the hardware. What you are missing here is the aspect of free will or at least partly free will. Intelligence is the ability to make choices on one's own. That means freely, of its own free will. Following no rules of logic. Transcending logic, not limited by it. BRUNO:� Do you really believe that Mandelbrot expected the Mandelbrot set? He said itself that it has come as a surprise, despite years of observation of fractals in nature. � ROGER:� OK, it came intuitively, freely,爃e did not arrive at it 燽y logic, although it no doubt has its own logic. BRUNO: Very simple program (simple meaning few Ks), can lead to tremendously complex behavior. If you understand the basic of computer science, you understand that by building universal machine, we just don't know what we are doing. To keep them slaves will be the hard work, and the wrong work. � This was the issue you brought up before, which at that time I thought was miraculous, the Holy Grail I had been seeking. But on reflection, I no longer believe that.牋IMHO anything that燼燾omputer does still must follow its own internal logic, contrained by its爃ardware constraints and the constraint of its language, even if those calculations are of infinite complexity. Nothing magical can happen. There ought to be a theorem showing that that must be true.� So machines cannot make autonomous decisions, they can only make decisions intended by the software programmer. BRUNO: You hope. Bruno Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net +rclo...@verizon.net 8/28/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so everything could function. - Receiving the following content - From: Bruno Marchal Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-08-27, 09:52:32 Subject: Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence On 27 Aug 2012, at 13:07, Roger Clough wrote: Hi meekerdb IMHO I don't think that computers can have intelligence because intelligence consists of at least one ability: the ability to make autonomous choices (choices completely of one's own). Computers can do nothing on their own, they can only do what softward and harfdware tells them to do. Another, closely related, reason, is that there must be an agent that does the choosing, and IMHO the agent has to be separate from the system. Godel, perhaps, I speculate. I will never insist on this enough. All the G?el's stuff shows that machines are very well suited for autonomy. In a sense, most of applied computer science is used to help
Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence
On 8/29/2012 4:10 PM, John Clark wrote: On Tue, Aug 28, 2012 at 7:21 PM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com mailto:whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: It's worth mentioning that Turing did not intend his test to imply that machines could think, only that the closest we could come would be to construct machines that would be good at playing The Imitation Game. No you are entirely incorrect, that is not worth mentioning. There is no difference between arithmetic and simulated arithmetic and no difference between thinking and imitation thinking. I have used the example of a trashcan lid in a fast food place that says THANK YOU. And when a employee of a fast food restaurant says THANK YOU to the 47'th customer for the 47'th time in the last hour he puts about as much thought into the message as the trash can did. John K Clark -- Hi Craig, John C. Has a very good point here. The difference is in the framing. -- Onward! Stephen http://webpages.charter.net/stephenk1/Outlaw/Outlaw.html -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence
Hi Bruno Marchal I don't agree. Machines must function according to their software and hardware, neither of which are their own. And so, machines cannot do anything not intended by the software author in his software program and constrained by the hardware. So machines cannot make autonomous decisions, they can only make decisions intended by the software programmer. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 8/28/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so everything could function. - Receiving the following content - From: Bruno Marchal Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-08-27, 09:52:32 Subject: Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence On 27 Aug 2012, at 13:07, Roger Clough wrote: Hi meekerdb IMHO I don't think that computers can have intelligence because intelligence consists of at least one ability: the ability to make autonomous choices (choices completely of one's own). Computers can do nothing on their own, they can only do what softward and harfdware tells them to do. Another, closely related, reason, is that there must be an agent that does the choosing, and IMHO the agent has to be separate from the system. Godel, perhaps, I speculate. I will never insist on this enough. All the G?el's stuff shows that machines are very well suited for autonomy. In a sense, most of applied computer science is used to help controlling what can really become uncontrollable and too much autonomous, a bit like children education. Computers are not stupid, we work a lot for making them so. Bruno Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 8/27/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so everything could function. - Receiving the following content - From: meekerdb Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-08-26, 14:56:29 Subject: Re: Simple proof that our intelligence transcends that of computers On 8/26/2012 10:25 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 25 Aug 2012, at 12:35, Jason Resch wrote: I agree different implementations of intelligence have different capabilities and roles, but I think computers are general enough to replicate any intelligence (so long as infinities or true randomness are not required). And now a subtle point. Perhaps. The point is that computers are general enough to replicate intelligence EVEN if infinities and true randomness are required for it. Imagine that our consciousness require some ORACLE. For example under the form of a some non compressible sequence 11101111011000110101011011... (say) Being incompressible, that sequence cannot be part of my brain at my substitution level, because this would make it impossible for the doctor to copy my brain into a finite string. So such sequence operates outside my brain, and if the doctor copy me at the right comp level, he will reconstitute me with the right interface to the oracle, so I will survive and stay conscious, despite my consciousness depends on that oracle. Will the UD, just alone, or in arithmetic, be able to copy me in front of that oracle? Yes, as the UD dovetails on all programs, but also on all inputs, and in this case, he will generate me successively (with large delays in between) in front of all finite approximation of the oracle, and (key point), the first person indeterminacy will have as domain, by definition of first person, all the UD computation where my virtual brain use the relevant (for my consciousness) part of the oracle. A machine can only access to finite parts of an oracle, in course of a computation requiring oracle, and so everything is fine. That's how I imagine COMP instantiates the relation between the physical world and consciousness; that the physical world acts like the oracle and provides essential interactions with consciousness as a computational process. Of course that doesn't require that the physical world be an oracle - it may be computable too. Brent Of course, if we need the whole oracular sequence, in one step, then comp would be just false, and the brain need an infinite interface. The UD dovetails really on all programs, with all possible input, even infinite non computable one. Bruno http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group
Re: Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence
On Tue, Aug 28, 2012 at 10:40 PM, Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net wrote: Hi Bruno Marchal I don't agree. Machines must function according to their software and hardware, neither of which are their own. And so, machines cannot do anything not intended by the software author in his software program and constrained by the hardware. So machines cannot make autonomous decisions, they can only make decisions intended by the software programmer. Could you explain how humans are *not* constrained by their software and hardware? I think you have a magical view about how biological organisms function. -- Stathis Papaioannou -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence
Hi John Clark But computers can only do what their programs/hardware tell them to do. To be intelligent they have to be able to make choices beyond that. They should be able to beat me at poker even though they have no poker program. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 8/28/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so everything could function. - Receiving the following content - From: John Clark Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-08-27, 13:48:40 Subject: Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence On Mon, Aug 27, 2012? Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net wrote: ? I don't think that computers can have intelligence But computers can solve equations better than you, play a game of chess better than you, be a better research librarian than you and win more money on Jeopardy than you; so it they don't have intelligence they apparently have something better. ? John K Clark? ? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence
Hi Stathis Papaioannou You are talking about a robot, not a human. At the very least, there is the problem of first person indeterminancy. Nobody (especially the programmer) can really know for example if I am an atheist or theist. For example, I might pretend to be an atheist then change my mind. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 8/28/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so everything could function. - Receiving the following content - From: Stathis Papaioannou Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-08-27, 22:00:42 Subject: Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence On Mon, Aug 27, 2012 at 9:07 PM, Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net wrote: Hi meekerdb IMHO I don't think that computers can have intelligence because intelligence consists of at least one ability: the ability to make autonomous choices (choices completely of one's own). Computers can do nothing on their own, they can only do what softward and harfdware tells them to do. But people must also do only what their software and hardware tells them to do. The hardware is the body and the software is the configuration the hardware is placed in as a result of their exposure to their environment. -- Stathis Papaioannou -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Re: Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence
On Tue, Aug 28, 2012 at 11:11 PM, Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net wrote: Hi Stathis Papaioannou Yes, hardware and software cannot feel anything because there is no subject to actually feel anything. There is no I , as in I feel that, there is only sensors and reactive mechanisms. A computer could make the same claim about Roger Clough, who lacks the special magic of silicon semiconductors and therefore cannot possibly feel anything. He might cry out in pain when stuck with a pin but that's just an act with no real feeling behind it. -- Stathis Papaioannou -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence
Hi Roger, On 28 Aug 2012, at 14:40, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Bruno Marchal I don't agree. Machines must function according to their software and hardware, neither of which are their own. A robot can already answer questions ,and talk, about its own software and hardware. The language Smalltalk makes this explicit by a command self, but this can be done in all programming language by the use of a famous diagonalization trick, which I sum up often by: if Dx gives xx, then DD gives DD. DD gives a description of itself. You get self-duplicators and other self-referential construct by generalization of that constructive diagonal. A famous theorem by Kleene justifies its existence for all universal systems. And so, machines cannot do anything not intended by the software author in his software program and constrained by the hardware. Do you really believe that Mandelbrot expected the Mandelbrot set? He said itself that it has come as a surprise, despite years of observation of fractals in nature. Very simple program (simple meaning few Ks), can lead to tremendously complex behavior. If you understand the basic of computer science, you understand that by building universal machine, we just don't know what we are doing. To keep them slaves will be the hard work, and the wrong work. So machines cannot make autonomous decisions, they can only make decisions intended by the software programmer. You hope. Bruno Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 8/28/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so everything could function. - Receiving the following content - From: Bruno Marchal Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-08-27, 09:52:32 Subject: Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence On 27 Aug 2012, at 13:07, Roger Clough wrote: Hi meekerdb IMHO I don't think that computers can have intelligence because intelligence consists of at least one ability: the ability to make autonomous choices (choices completely of one's own). Computers can do nothing on their own, they can only do what softward and harfdware tells them to do. Another, closely related, reason, is that there must be an agent that does the choosing, and IMHO the agent has to be separate from the system. Godel, perhaps, I speculate. I will never insist on this enough. All the G鰀el's stuff shows that machines are very well suited for autonomy. In a sense, most of applied computer science is used to help controlling what can really become uncontrollable and too much autonomous, a bit like children education. Computers are not stupid, we work a lot for making them so. Bruno Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 8/27/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so everything could function. - Receiving the following content - From: meekerdb Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-08-26, 14:56:29 Subject: Re: Simple proof that our intelligence transcends that of computers On 8/26/2012 10:25 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 25 Aug 2012, at 12:35, Jason Resch wrote: I agree different implementations of intelligence have different capabilities and roles, but I think computers are general enough to replicate any intelligence (so long as infinities or true randomness are not required). And now a subtle point. Perhaps. The point is that computers are general enough to replicate intelligence EVEN if infinities and true randomness are required for it. Imagine that our consciousness require some ORACLE. For example under the form of a some non compressible sequence 11101111011000110101011011... (say) Being incompressible, that sequence cannot be part of my brain at my substitution level, because this would make it impossible for the doctor to copy my brain into a finite string. So such sequence operates outside my brain, and if the doctor copy me at the right comp level, he will reconstitute me with the right interface to the oracle, so I will survive and stay conscious, despite my consciousness depends on that oracle. Will the UD, just alone, or in arithmetic, be able to copy me in front of that oracle? Yes, as the UD dovetails on all programs, but also on all inputs, and in this case, he will generate me successively (with large delays in between) in front of all finite approximation of the oracle, and (key point), the first person indeterminacy will have as domain, by definition of first person, all the UD computation where my virtual brain use the relevant (for my consciousness) part of the oracle. A machine can only access to finite parts of an oracle, in course of a computation requiring oracle, and so everything is fine. That's how I imagine COMP instantiates the relation between the physical world and consciousness; that the physical world acts like the oracle and provides essential interactions with consciousness
RE: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence
Bruno: Will you please cite the theorem of Kleene. All: Living systems are not the material from which they are constructed (upon which they exist). Living systems are rather the systems of processes and higher, which rest upon the material from which they are constructed. Methinks that Roger mistakes life for the substrate. wrb From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Bruno Marchal Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2012 9:12 AM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence Hi Roger, On 28 Aug 2012, at 14:40, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Bruno Marchal I don't agree. Machines must function according to their software and hardware, neither of which are their own. A robot can already answer questions ,and talk, about its own software and hardware. The language Smalltalk makes this explicit by a command self, but this can be done in all programming language by the use of a famous diagonalization trick, which I sum up often by: if Dx gives xx, then DD gives DD. DD gives a description of itself. You get self-duplicators and other self-referential construct by generalization of that constructive diagonal. A famous theorem by Kleene justifies its existence for all universal systems. And so, machines cannot do anything not intended by the software author in his software program and constrained by the hardware. Do you really believe that Mandelbrot expected the Mandelbrot set? He said itself that it has come as a surprise, despite years of observation of fractals in nature. Very simple program (simple meaning few Ks), can lead to tremendously complex behavior. If you understand the basic of computer science, you understand that by building universal machine, we just don't know what we are doing. To keep them slaves will be the hard work, and the wrong work. So machines cannot make autonomous decisions, they can only make decisions intended by the software programmer. You hope. Bruno Roger Clough, mailto:rclo...@verizon.net rclo...@verizon.net 8/28/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so everything could function. - Receiving the following content - From: Bruno Marchal mailto:marc...@ulb.ac.be Receiver: everything-list mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com Time: 2012-08-27, 09:52:32 Subject: Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence On 27 Aug 2012, at 13:07, Roger Clough wrote: Hi meekerdb IMHO I don't think that computers can have intelligence because intelligence consists of at least one ability: the ability to make autonomous choices (choices completely of one's own). Computers can do nothing on their own, they can only do what softward and harfdware tells them to do. Another, closely related, reason, is that there must be an agent that does the choosing, and IMHO the agent has to be separate from the system. Godel, perhaps, I speculate. I will never insist on this enough. All the G鰀el's stuff shows that machines are very well suited for autonomy. In a sense, most of applied computer science is used to help controlling what can really become uncontrollable and too much autonomous, a bit like children education. Computers are not stupid, we work a lot for making them so. Bruno Roger Clough, mailto:rclo...@verizon.net rclo...@verizon.net 8/27/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so everything could function. - Receiving the following content - From: meekerdb mailto:meeke...@verizon.net Receiver: everything-list mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com Time: 2012-08-26, 14:56:29 Subject: Re: Simple proof that our intelligence transcends that of computers On 8/26/2012 10:25 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 25 Aug 2012, at 12:35, Jason Resch wrote: I agree different implementations of intelligence have different capabilities and roles, but I think computers are general enough to replicate any intelligence (so long as infinities or true randomness are not required). And now a subtle point. Perhaps. The point is that computers are general enough to replicate intelligence EVEN if infinities and true randomness are required for it. Imagine that our consciousness require some ORACLE. For example under the form of a some non compressible sequence 11101111011000110101011011... (say) Being incompressible, that sequence cannot be part of my brain at my substitution level, because this would make it impossible for the doctor to copy my brain into a finite string. So such sequence operates outside my brain, and if the doctor copy me at the right comp level, he will reconstitute me with the right interface to the oracle, so I will survive and stay
Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence
I agree with what Roger is saying here (and have of course expressed that before often) and do not think that accusations of vitalism add anything to the issue. It's really nothing but an ad hominem attack. I would only modify Roger's view in two ways: 1. Programs can and do produce outcomes that are not directly anticipated by the programmer, but that these outcomes are trivial and do not transcend the constraints of the program itself. Conway's game of life can produce a new kind of glider, but it can't come up with the invention of Elvis Presley, regardless of how sophisticated the game is. Blue cannot be generated by any combination of black and white or one and zero. 2. Hardware does actually feel something, but not necessarily what we would imagine. We use certain materials for computer chips and not hamsters or milkshakes because reliable computation requires specific properties. We only use materials which are subject to absolute control by outside intervention and behave in an absolutely automatic way to sustain those introduced controls. Living organisms are very much the opposite of that, but that doesn't mean that inorganic matter has no experience or proto experience on its own inertial frame of perception. It might, but we don't know that. I would give the benefit of the doubt to all matter as having common physical sense, but that organic chemistry, biology, zoology, and anthropology present dramatic qualitative breakthroughs in elaboration of sense. This is not vitalism. There is no magic juice of life-ness, only a rough segmentation or diffracted caste relation of participation richness and significance intensity. A living baby is not the same thing as a spare tire to us, but it isn't significantly different to a tsunami. Neither the significance nor the insignificance is an 'illusion', they are just measures of the relations of the investment of experience across eons and species and how that investment relates to the participants on every level. Roger and Searle are correct however in pointing out that the machine has no stake in the outcome of the program, nor can it. I suggest that there is an experience there, but likely very primitive - a holding and releasing which is what we know as electric current within the semiconductors. There is no actual current, only excited-empowered molecules. There is no program, only a mirroring of our meticulous transcription of human motive and its inevitable tautological products. Since we are multi-layered, we can become confused when we assume that who we are must be a monolithic representation of all that we are. If we expect that the contents of all processes of the psyche should be available to our verbal-cognitive specialists then we will be disappointed and turn to Libet. We will mistake the automatism which supports lower levels of what we are for the quasi-independence of the spectrum of identity which we embody. Craig On Tuesday, August 28, 2012 12:13:23 AM UTC-4, William R. Buckley wrote: Roger: I suggest that at root, you have vitalist sympathies. wrb *From:* everyth...@googlegroups.com javascript: [mailto: everyth...@googlegroups.com javascript:] *On Behalf Of *Roger Clough *Sent:* Monday, August 27, 2012 4:07 AM *To:* everything-list *Subject:* Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence Hi meekerdb IMHO I don't think that computers can have intelligence because intelligence consists of at least one ability: the ability to make autonomous choices (choices completely of one's own). Computers can do nothing on their own, they can only do what softward and harfdware tells them to do. Another, closely related, reason, is that there must be an agent that does the choosing, and IMHO the agent has to be separate from the system. Godel, perhaps, I speculate. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net javascript: 8/27/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so everything could function. - Receiving the following content - *From:* meekerdb javascript: *Receiver:* everything-list javascript: *Time:* 2012-08-26, 14:56:29 *Subject:* Re: Simple proof that our intelligence transcends that of computers On 8/26/2012 10:25 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 25 Aug 2012, at 12:35, Jason Resch wrote: I agree different implementations of intelligence have different capabilities and roles, but I think computers are general enough to replicate any intelligence (so long as infinities or true randomness are not required). And now a subtle point. Perhaps. The point is that computers are general enough to replicate intelligence EVEN if infinities and true randomness are required for it. Imagine that our consciousness require some ORACLE. For example under the form of a some non compressible sequence 11101111011000110101011011... (say
RE: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence
No, it is not ad hominem. It is a serious issue. The discussion of COMP is one of essentialism. Your first argument hinges upon a non-sequitur. Your second argument hinges upon semiotics. You have no way to compare your experience (conscious or otherwise) to that of any other creature; your umwelt is not my umwelt. And, vitalism is not necessarily a call to Deity. There are a great many non-deist connotations to vitality. wrb From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Craig Weinberg Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2012 10:51 AM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence I agree with what Roger is saying here (and have of course expressed that before often) and do not think that accusations of vitalism add anything to the issue. It's really nothing but an ad hominem attack. I would only modify Roger's view in two ways: 1. Programs can and do produce outcomes that are not directly anticipated by the programmer, but that these outcomes are trivial and do not transcend the constraints of the program itself. Conway's game of life can produce a new kind of glider, but it can't come up with the invention of Elvis Presley, regardless of how sophisticated the game is. Blue cannot be generated by any combination of black and white or one and zero. 2. Hardware does actually feel something, but not necessarily what we would imagine. We use certain materials for computer chips and not hamsters or milkshakes because reliable computation requires specific properties. We only use materials which are subject to absolute control by outside intervention and behave in an absolutely automatic way to sustain those introduced controls. Living organisms are very much the opposite of that, but that doesn't mean that inorganic matter has no experience or proto experience on its own inertial frame of perception. It might, but we don't know that. I would give the benefit of the doubt to all matter as having common physical sense, but that organic chemistry, biology, zoology, and anthropology present dramatic qualitative breakthroughs in elaboration of sense. This is not vitalism. There is no magic juice of life-ness, only a rough segmentation or diffracted caste relation of participation richness and significance intensity. A living baby is not the same thing as a spare tire to us, but it isn't significantly different to a tsunami. Neither the significance nor the insignificance is an 'illusion', they are just measures of the relations of the investment of experience across eons and species and how that investment relates to the participants on every level. Roger and Searle are correct however in pointing out that the machine has no stake in the outcome of the program, nor can it. I suggest that there is an experience there, but likely very primitive - a holding and releasing which is what we know as electric current within the semiconductors. There is no actual current, only excited-empowered molecules. There is no program, only a mirroring of our meticulous transcription of human motive and its inevitable tautological products. Since we are multi-layered, we can become confused when we assume that who we are must be a monolithic representation of all that we are. If we expect that the contents of all processes of the psyche should be available to our verbal-cognitive specialists then we will be disappointed and turn to Libet. We will mistake the automatism which supports lower levels of what we are for the quasi-independence of the spectrum of identity which we embody. Craig On Tuesday, August 28, 2012 12:13:23 AM UTC-4, William R. Buckley wrote: Roger: I suggest that at root, you have vitalist sympathies. wrb From: everyth...@googlegroups.com javascript: [mailto:everyth...@googlegroups.com javascript: ] On Behalf Of Roger Clough Sent: Monday, August 27, 2012 4:07 AM To: everything-list Subject: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence Hi meekerdb IMHO I don't think that computers can have intelligence because intelligence consists of at least one ability: the ability to make autonomous choices (choices completely of one's own). Computers can do nothing on their own, they can only do what softward and harfdware tells them to do. Another, closely related, reason, is that there must be an agent that does the choosing, and IMHO the agent has to be separate from the system. Godel, perhaps, I speculate. Roger Clough, javascript: rclo...@verizon.net 8/27/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so everything could function. - Receiving the following content - From: meekerdb javascript: Receiver: everything-list javascript: Time: 2012-08-26, 14:56:29 Subject: Re: Simple proof that our intelligence transcends that of computers On 8/26/2012 10:25 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote
Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence
On Tuesday, August 28, 2012 2:55:54 PM UTC-4, William R. Buckley wrote: No, it is not ad hominem. It is a serious issue. Are they mutually exclusive? Telling someone they have a bad haircut could be a serious issue too, but it doesn't mean it isn't ad hominem. The discussion of COMP is one of essentialism. Your first argument hinges upon a non-sequitur. I can't defend against an unsupported accusation. All I can do is say, 'no it doesn't'. Your second argument hinges upon semiotics. You have no way to compare your experience (conscious or otherwise) to that of any other creature; your umwelt is not my umwelt. Your presumption of my capacities to compare experiences depends on exactly the same capacity that mine does. If you are right that your umwelt is not my umwelt, then how do you know that my umwelt doesn't contain yours? Instead, why not assume a psychic unity of mankind. I don't have to assume that I can't compare my experience to another creature at all. I can say that if I step on a cat's tail and it reacts, that there is in fact every reason to assume a comparable dimension of pain. It's sophistry to pretend that we can't compare our own experience to others...we do it all the time. Our sanity depends on it. It need not be questioned as the questioning itself implies a hyper-reality of sense comparison between umwelts which would be inaccessible if your proposition was true. You cut off the limb you are sitting on to try to hit me with it. And, vitalism is not necessarily a call to Deity. There are a great many non-deist connotations to vitality. Who said anything about a deity? Craig wrb *From:* everyth...@googlegroups.com javascript: [mailto: everyth...@googlegroups.com javascript:] *On Behalf Of *Craig Weinberg *Sent:* Tuesday, August 28, 2012 10:51 AM *To:* everyth...@googlegroups.com javascript: *Subject:* Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence I agree with what Roger is saying here (and have of course expressed that before often) and do not think that accusations of vitalism add anything to the issue. It's really nothing but an ad hominem attack. I would only modify Roger's view in two ways: 1. Programs can and do produce outcomes that are not directly anticipated by the programmer, but that these outcomes are trivial and do not transcend the constraints of the program itself. Conway's game of life can produce a new kind of glider, but it can't come up with the invention of Elvis Presley, regardless of how sophisticated the game is. Blue cannot be generated by any combination of black and white or one and zero. 2. Hardware does actually feel something, but not necessarily what we would imagine. We use certain materials for computer chips and not hamsters or milkshakes because reliable computation requires specific properties. We only use materials which are subject to absolute control by outside intervention and behave in an absolutely automatic way to sustain those introduced controls. Living organisms are very much the opposite of that, but that doesn't mean that inorganic matter has no experience or proto experience on its own inertial frame of perception. It might, but we don't know that. I would give the benefit of the doubt to all matter as having common physical sense, but that organic chemistry, biology, zoology, and anthropology present dramatic qualitative breakthroughs in elaboration of sense. This is not vitalism. There is no magic juice of life-ness, only a rough segmentation or diffracted caste relation of participation richness and significance intensity. A living baby is not the same thing as a spare tire to us, but it isn't significantly different to a tsunami. Neither the significance nor the insignificance is an 'illusion', they are just measures of the relations of the investment of experience across eons and species and how that investment relates to the participants on every level. Roger and Searle are correct however in pointing out that the machine has no stake in the outcome of the program, nor can it. I suggest that there is an experience there, but likely very primitive - a holding and releasing which is what we know as electric current within the semiconductors. There is no actual current, only excited-empowered molecules. There is no program, only a mirroring of our meticulous transcription of human motive and its inevitable tautological products. Since we are multi-layered, we can become confused when we assume that who we are must be a monolithic representation of all that we are. If we expect that the contents of all processes of the psyche should be available to our verbal-cognitive specialists then we will be disappointed and turn to Libet. We will mistake the automatism which supports lower levels of what we are for the quasi-independence of the spectrum of identity
RE: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence
My statement is not intended for either of these purposes: 1. (of an argument or reaction) Arising from or appealing to the emotions and not reason or logic. 2. Attacking an opponent's motives or character rather than the policy or position they maintain. It is instead a serious statement. I needn't supply argument to support a statement (you call accusation) when you so admirably supply same. The best you can do in comparing my umwelt with your umwelt is to adopt a common standard, and spend eternity coming to agreement on every comparison. You cannot directly compare experiences; all comparisons are second hand, post experience. You called upon the notion of a magic juice of life-ness in responding to my statement, and therefore invoke (at minimum) some mystical conception, if not Deity. wrb From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Craig Weinberg Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2012 12:45 PM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence On Tuesday, August 28, 2012 2:55:54 PM UTC-4, William R. Buckley wrote: No, it is not ad hominem. It is a serious issue. Are they mutually exclusive? Telling someone they have a bad haircut could be a serious issue too, but it doesn't mean it isn't ad hominem. The discussion of COMP is one of essentialism. Your first argument hinges upon a non-sequitur. I can't defend against an unsupported accusation. All I can do is say, 'no it doesn't'. Your second argument hinges upon semiotics. You have no way to compare your experience (conscious or otherwise) to that of any other creature; your umwelt is not my umwelt. Your presumption of my capacities to compare experiences depends on exactly the same capacity that mine does. If you are right that your umwelt is not my umwelt, then how do you know that my umwelt doesn't contain yours? Instead, why not assume a psychic unity of mankind. I don't have to assume that I can't compare my experience to another creature at all. I can say that if I step on a cat's tail and it reacts, that there is in fact every reason to assume a comparable dimension of pain. It's sophistry to pretend that we can't compare our own experience to others...we do it all the time. Our sanity depends on it. It need not be questioned as the questioning itself implies a hyper-reality of sense comparison between umwelts which would be inaccessible if your proposition was true. You cut off the limb you are sitting on to try to hit me with it. And, vitalism is not necessarily a call to Deity. There are a great many non-deist connotations to vitality. Who said anything about a deity? Craig wrb From: everyth...@googlegroups.com javascript: [mailto:everyth...@googlegroups.com javascript: ] On Behalf Of Craig Weinberg Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2012 10:51 AM To: everyth...@googlegroups.com javascript: Subject: Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence I agree with what Roger is saying here (and have of course expressed that before often) and do not think that accusations of vitalism add anything to the issue. It's really nothing but an ad hominem attack. I would only modify Roger's view in two ways: 1. Programs can and do produce outcomes that are not directly anticipated by the programmer, but that these outcomes are trivial and do not transcend the constraints of the program itself. Conway's game of life can produce a new kind of glider, but it can't come up with the invention of Elvis Presley, regardless of how sophisticated the game is. Blue cannot be generated by any combination of black and white or one and zero. 2. Hardware does actually feel something, but not necessarily what we would imagine. We use certain materials for computer chips and not hamsters or milkshakes because reliable computation requires specific properties. We only use materials which are subject to absolute control by outside intervention and behave in an absolutely automatic way to sustain those introduced controls. Living organisms are very much the opposite of that, but that doesn't mean that inorganic matter has no experience or proto experience on its own inertial frame of perception. It might, but we don't know that. I would give the benefit of the doubt to all matter as having common physical sense, but that organic chemistry, biology, zoology, and anthropology present dramatic qualitative breakthroughs in elaboration of sense. This is not vitalism. There is no magic juice of life-ness, only a rough segmentation or diffracted caste relation of participation richness and significance intensity. A living baby is not the same thing as a spare tire to us, but it isn't significantly different to a tsunami. Neither the significance nor the insignificance is an 'illusion', they are just measures of the relations of the investment of experience across eons
Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence
It's intentional hyperbole, not a non-sequitur. I am making the comparison between a program designed to produce simple patterns of pixels achieving a trivial level of novelty within that constraint of design and the event of any such program achieving an authentic transgression of its own programmatic constraints. There is no need to prove this claim as it is not a claim, it is a factual description and a clarification of the implications of that description. If you are claiming that GoL can produce something other than meaningless iterations of quantitative pixels, then the burden of proof is on you. Where is the Elvis? On Tuesday, August 28, 2012 4:13:22 PM UTC-4, William R. Buckley wrote: Proof of non-sequitur. You assert that GoL cannot invent Elvis Presley. You have no proof of this claim. You simply claim it. Further, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non_sequitur_%28logic%29 Your relevant statement is: Conway's game of life can produce a new kind of glider, but it can't come up with the invention of Elvis Presley, regardless of how sophisticated the game is. QED *From:* everyth...@googlegroups.com javascript: [mailto: everyth...@googlegroups.com javascript:] *On Behalf Of *Craig Weinberg *Sent:* Tuesday, August 28, 2012 12:45 PM *To:* everyth...@googlegroups.com javascript: *Subject:* Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence On Tuesday, August 28, 2012 2:55:54 PM UTC-4, William R. Buckley wrote: No, it is not ad hominem. It is a serious issue. Are they mutually exclusive? Telling someone they have a bad haircut could be a serious issue too, but it doesn't mean it isn't ad hominem. The discussion of COMP is one of essentialism. Your first argument hinges upon a non-sequitur. I can't defend against an unsupported accusation. All I can do is say, 'no it doesn't'. Your second argument hinges upon semiotics. You have no way to compare your experience (conscious or otherwise) to that of any other creature; your umwelt is not my umwelt. Your presumption of my capacities to compare experiences depends on exactly the same capacity that mine does. If you are right that your umwelt is not my umwelt, then how do you know that my umwelt doesn't contain yours? Instead, why not assume a psychic unity of mankind. I don't have to assume that I can't compare my experience to another creature at all. I can say that if I step on a cat's tail and it reacts, that there is in fact every reason to assume a comparable dimension of pain. It's sophistry to pretend that we can't compare our own experience to others...we do it all the time. Our sanity depends on it. It need not be questioned as the questioning itself implies a hyper-reality of sense comparison between umwelts which would be inaccessible if your proposition was true. You cut off the limb you are sitting on to try to hit me with it. And, vitalism is not necessarily a call to Deity. There are a great many non-deist connotations to vitality. Who said anything about a deity? Craig wrb *From:* everyth...@googlegroups.com [mailto:everyth...@googlegroups.com] *On Behalf Of *Craig Weinberg *Sent:* Tuesday, August 28, 2012 10:51 AM *To:* everyth...@googlegroups.com *Subject:* Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence I agree with what Roger is saying here (and have of course expressed that before often) and do not think that accusations of vitalism add anything to the issue. It's really nothing but an ad hominem attack. I would only modify Roger's view in two ways: 1. Programs can and do produce outcomes that are not directly anticipated by the programmer, but that these outcomes are trivial and do not transcend the constraints of the program itself. Conway's game of life can produce a new kind of glider, but it can't come up with the invention of Elvis Presley, regardless of how sophisticated the game is. Blue cannot be generated by any combination of black and white or one and zero. 2. Hardware does actually feel something, but not necessarily what we would imagine. We use certain materials for computer chips and not hamsters or milkshakes because reliable computation requires specific properties. We only use materials which are subject to absolute control by outside intervention and behave in an absolutely automatic way to sustain those introduced controls. Living organisms are very much the opposite of that, but that doesn't mean that inorganic matter has no experience or proto experience on its own inertial frame of perception. It might, but we don't know that. I would give the benefit of the doubt to all matter as having common physical sense, but that organic chemistry, biology, zoology, and anthropology present dramatic qualitative breakthroughs in elaboration of sense. This is not vitalism
RE: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence
The burden of proof is not on me. I am replying to your initial claim, that Elvis will not appear in context of GoL. Intellectual honesty implies the proof is on you. wrb From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Craig Weinberg Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2012 2:08 PM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence It's intentional hyperbole, not a non-sequitur. I am making the comparison between a program designed to produce simple patterns of pixels achieving a trivial level of novelty within that constraint of design and the event of any such program achieving an authentic transgression of its own programmatic constraints. There is no need to prove this claim as it is not a claim, it is a factual description and a clarification of the implications of that description. If you are claiming that GoL can produce something other than meaningless iterations of quantitative pixels, then the burden of proof is on you. Where is the Elvis? On Tuesday, August 28, 2012 4:13:22 PM UTC-4, William R. Buckley wrote: Proof of non-sequitur. You assert that GoL cannot invent Elvis Presley. You have no proof of this claim. You simply claim it. Further, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non_sequitur_%28logic%29 Your relevant statement is: Conway's game of life can produce a new kind of glider, but it can't come up with the invention of Elvis Presley, regardless of how sophisticated the game is. QED From: everyth...@googlegroups.com javascript: [mailto:everyth...@googlegroups.com javascript: ] On Behalf Of Craig Weinberg Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2012 12:45 PM To: everyth...@googlegroups.com javascript: Subject: Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence On Tuesday, August 28, 2012 2:55:54 PM UTC-4, William R. Buckley wrote: No, it is not ad hominem. It is a serious issue. Are they mutually exclusive? Telling someone they have a bad haircut could be a serious issue too, but it doesn't mean it isn't ad hominem. The discussion of COMP is one of essentialism. Your first argument hinges upon a non-sequitur. I can't defend against an unsupported accusation. All I can do is say, 'no it doesn't'. Your second argument hinges upon semiotics. You have no way to compare your experience (conscious or otherwise) to that of any other creature; your umwelt is not my umwelt. Your presumption of my capacities to compare experiences depends on exactly the same capacity that mine does. If you are right that your umwelt is not my umwelt, then how do you know that my umwelt doesn't contain yours? Instead, why not assume a psychic unity of mankind. I don't have to assume that I can't compare my experience to another creature at all. I can say that if I step on a cat's tail and it reacts, that there is in fact every reason to assume a comparable dimension of pain. It's sophistry to pretend that we can't compare our own experience to others...we do it all the time. Our sanity depends on it. It need not be questioned as the questioning itself implies a hyper-reality of sense comparison between umwelts which would be inaccessible if your proposition was true. You cut off the limb you are sitting on to try to hit me with it. And, vitalism is not necessarily a call to Deity. There are a great many non-deist connotations to vitality. Who said anything about a deity? Craig wrb From: everyth...@googlegroups.com [mailto:everyth...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Craig Weinberg Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2012 10:51 AM To: everyth...@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence I agree with what Roger is saying here (and have of course expressed that before often) and do not think that accusations of vitalism add anything to the issue. It's really nothing but an ad hominem attack. I would only modify Roger's view in two ways: 1. Programs can and do produce outcomes that are not directly anticipated by the programmer, but that these outcomes are trivial and do not transcend the constraints of the program itself. Conway's game of life can produce a new kind of glider, but it can't come up with the invention of Elvis Presley, regardless of how sophisticated the game is. Blue cannot be generated by any combination of black and white or one and zero. 2. Hardware does actually feel something, but not necessarily what we would imagine. We use certain materials for computer chips and not hamsters or milkshakes because reliable computation requires specific properties. We only use materials which are subject to absolute control by outside intervention and behave in an absolutely automatic way to sustain those introduced controls. Living organisms are very much the opposite of that, but that doesn't mean that inorganic matter has no experience or proto experience on its own inertial