Re: [expert] For all of you with "One BIG anoying Pain in the A**"
On Friday 05 January 2001 21:47, you wrote: > Thanks for the info civileme. > > If the problem is that the kernel has been patch to include udma100 and > this causes the problem I have been having, is their a fix? I would > love to get Mandrake working again. > just for info I have the following configuration:- > > ide0 udma33 IBM6.4GBMaster > hda1/ > hda2swap > hda3/winbackup > ide1 DVD /cdrom Master > CDRW/cdrom1 Slave > ide2 udma66 Quantum KA9 cable select end of cable1of ultra66 controller > hde1C: win98 > hde5swap > hde6/backup > ide3 udma66 Quantum CR13cable select middle of cable1of ultra66 controller > hdf2/oldhome > hdf3E:winbackup > hdf5F:windata > hdf6G:diskcopy > cdrom Master end connector of cable2 of ultra66 controller > scsi IBM 2.2GB > sda1swap > sda2/home > Thanks for any input or advice > Paul > That does not cause the problem per se. It seems manufacturers of hdds, particularly ides, discovered that the broad tolerances allowed by most software made it possible to relax QA and sell out of spec drives. Now with their newer ATA/66 and ATA/100 tech, they are supplying drivers that are very tolerant, but the linux-ide folks BELIEVED the specs and wrote with that target. The fix is to hit F1 at the splash screen and type expert linux idebus=33 --just a workaround Of course avoid selecting hd optimisation and put an idebus=33 in the append statement blank of every single bootable linux on the system. You can alter this, once you are up, by patching /etc/rc.sysinit with hdparm statements right after the paths are defined (somewhere in the first 10 lines) that slow down the suspect disks. Mostly this has been WD disks but some others have also failed. And at least one has been reported to fail on kernel 2.4.0 This appears to be a hardware problem as well because plain vanilla unpatched 2.4 is showing write errors on some DMA 33 drives where plain 2.2.18 kernel-linus did not. The fix this time probably has to be to start returning out of spec merchandise. It might be possible for two kernels to be on your boot menu, one for good hardware and one for garbage, but they might be for different versions of the distro, or have other services changed. It should(tm) be possible to simply replace a 7.2 kernel with 7.1's version or to use the kernel-linus shipped with 7.2 For the method to do that, check here: http://www.mandrakeforum.com/article.php3?sid=20001206025807 Only the portion relating to the copying of kernel info to /boot need concern you. Civileme Civileme
Re: [expert] For all of you with "One BIG anoying Pain in the A**"
Thanks for the info civileme. If the problem is that the kernel has been patch to include udma100 and this causes the problem I have been having, is their a fix? I would love to get Mandrake working again. just for info I have the following configuration:- ide0udma33 IBM6.4GBMaster hda1/ hda2swap hda3/winbackup ide1DVD /cdrom Master CDRW/cdrom1 Slave ide2udma66 Quantum KA9 cable select end of cable1of ultra66 controller hde1C: win98 hde5swap hde6/backup ide3udma66 Quantum CR13cable select middle of cable1of ultra66 controller hdf2/oldhome hdf3E:winbackup hdf5F:windata hdf6G:diskcopy cdrom Master end connector of cable2 of ultra66 controller scsiIBM 2.2GB sda1swap sda2/home Thanks for any input or advice Paul On Friday 05 January 2001 7:41, you wrote: > On Thursday 04 January 2001 20:44, you wrote: > > Paul Stear wrote: > > > Hi all, > > > Something seriously changed from 7.1 to 7.2 and I have not had any > > > solution to my problem. > > > The install of 7.1 went without a hitch and all was well in the > > > Mandrake world and I was very pleased with the distribution. However, > > > trying an upgrade caused problems, then a complete new install of 7.2 > > > could not be achieved due to the install system stopping after the > > > detection of hda. I have followed all advice from this list and on the > > > Mandrake sight but to no avail. > > > I am now running redhat 7.0 which at least installed OK and I have kde2 > > > running well. > > > > > > I still prefer the Mandrake system and would love to be able to install > > > it again. It will install if I remove my promise ultra66 card and hard > > > disks. - Note - Mandrake 7.1 recognised this card and would allow me to > > > use the disks. > > > The redhat 7.0 system did install but didn't recognise the ultra66 card > > > on installation but I was able to add the two extra hard disks after > > > installation. This is not ideal because because my hda disk is slower > > > than my hde or hdf. > > > > This is the Promise Ultra 66 card? Hmmm... not going to be of much help > > to know this but I have this card and the 7.2 install recognized it fine. > > Is there any chance you have some type of interrupt conflict going on > > there? > > > > Holly > > Nope. We patch the kernel for ATA/66 and ATA/100 support. As a result, > some out of spec disk drives have trouble with us and run fine on RH. Or > run fine on 7.1 (patched for ATA/66) and have write errors on 7.2 (Patched > for ATA/100). We will fail on recognizing one of two card controllers if > the user has that configuration (6 ide channels for up to 12 drives). > Don't laugh; someone wrote to us with that very configuration. > > > Only 4 ide channels are probed on setup -- other channels (up to a total > of 6) can be recognized later by specific configuration but will not be > recognized on boot. modprobe -c will show you why. So we cannot install > to drive i, j, k, or l unless it is SCSI. > > Civileme
Re: [expert] For all of you with "One BIG anoying Pain in the A**"
On Fri, 5 Jan 2001, civileme wrote: > On Thursday 04 January 2001 20:44, you wrote: > > Paul Stear wrote: > > > Hi all, > > > Something seriously changed from 7.1 to 7.2 and I have not had any > > > solution to my problem. > > > The install of 7.1 went without a hitch and all was well in the Mandrake > > > world and I was very pleased with the distribution. However, trying an > > > upgrade caused problems, then a complete new install of 7.2 could not be > > > achieved due to the install system stopping after the detection of hda. > > > I have followed all advice from this list and on the Mandrake sight but > > > to no avail. > > > I am now running redhat 7.0 which at least installed OK and I have kde2 > > > running well. > > > > > > I still prefer the Mandrake system and would love to be able to install > > > it again. It will install if I remove my promise ultra66 card and hard > > > disks. - Note - Mandrake 7.1 recognised this card and would allow me to > > > use the disks. > > > The redhat 7.0 system did install but didn't recognise the ultra66 card > > > on installation but I was able to add the two extra hard disks after > > > installation. This is not ideal because because my hda disk is slower > > > than my hde or hdf. > > Of all distro's to choose, you choose RH 7.0 I believe if you are having problems now w/upgrades and problems.. you ain't seen nothing yet. If you are not going to be running Mandrake, at least run something like SuSE as it wasn't built on a broken compiler. You will have many more hidden problems down the road. This opinion is worth exactly what you pay for it. ;-)
Re: [expert] For all of you with "One BIG anoying Pain in the A**"
On Thursday 04 January 2001 20:44, you wrote: > Paul Stear wrote: > > Hi all, > > Something seriously changed from 7.1 to 7.2 and I have not had any > > solution to my problem. > > The install of 7.1 went without a hitch and all was well in the Mandrake > > world and I was very pleased with the distribution. However, trying an > > upgrade caused problems, then a complete new install of 7.2 could not be > > achieved due to the install system stopping after the detection of hda. > > I have followed all advice from this list and on the Mandrake sight but > > to no avail. > > I am now running redhat 7.0 which at least installed OK and I have kde2 > > running well. > > > > I still prefer the Mandrake system and would love to be able to install > > it again. It will install if I remove my promise ultra66 card and hard > > disks. - Note - Mandrake 7.1 recognised this card and would allow me to > > use the disks. > > The redhat 7.0 system did install but didn't recognise the ultra66 card > > on installation but I was able to add the two extra hard disks after > > installation. This is not ideal because because my hda disk is slower > > than my hde or hdf. > > This is the Promise Ultra 66 card? Hmmm... not going to be of much help to > know this but I have this card and the 7.2 install recognized it fine. Is > there any chance you have some type of interrupt conflict going on there? > > Holly Nope. We patch the kernel for ATA/66 and ATA/100 support. As a result, some out of spec disk drives have trouble with us and run fine on RH. Or run fine on 7.1 (patched for ATA/66) and have write errors on 7.2 (Patched for ATA/100). We will fail on recognizing one of two card controllers if the user has that configuration (6 ide channels for up to 12 drives). Don't laugh; someone wrote to us with that very configuration. Only 4 ide channels are probed on setup -- other channels (up to a total of 6) can be recognized later by specific configuration but will not be recognized on boot. modprobe -c will show you why. So we cannot install to drive i, j, k, or l unless it is SCSI. Civileme
Re: [expert] For all of you with "One BIG anoying Pain in the A**"
Paul Stear wrote: > > Hi all, > Something seriously changed from 7.1 to 7.2 and I have not had any solution > to my problem. > The install of 7.1 went without a hitch and all was well in the Mandrake > world and I was very pleased with the distribution. However, trying an > upgrade caused problems, then a complete new install of 7.2 could not be > achieved due to the install system stopping after the detection of hda. I > have followed all advice from this list and on the Mandrake sight but to no > avail. > I am now running redhat 7.0 which at least installed OK and I have kde2 > running well. > > I still prefer the Mandrake system and would love to be able to install it > again. It will install if I remove my promise ultra66 card and hard disks. > - Note - Mandrake 7.1 recognised this card and would allow me to use the > disks. > The redhat 7.0 system did install but didn't recognise the ultra66 card on > installation but I was able to add the two extra hard disks after > installation. This is not ideal because because my hda disk is slower than > my hde or hdf. This is the Promise Ultra 66 card? Hmmm... not going to be of much help to know this but I have this card and the 7.2 install recognized it fine. Is there any chance you have some type of interrupt conflict going on there? Holly
Re: [expert] For all of you with "One BIG anoying Pain in the A**"
Hi all, Something seriously changed from 7.1 to 7.2 and I have not had any solution to my problem. The install of 7.1 went without a hitch and all was well in the Mandrake world and I was very pleased with the distribution. However, trying an upgrade caused problems, then a complete new install of 7.2 could not be achieved due to the install system stopping after the detection of hda. I have followed all advice from this list and on the Mandrake sight but to no avail. I am now running redhat 7.0 which at least installed OK and I have kde2 running well. I still prefer the Mandrake system and would love to be able to install it again. It will install if I remove my promise ultra66 card and hard disks. - Note - Mandrake 7.1 recognised this card and would allow me to use the disks. The redhat 7.0 system did install but didn't recognise the ultra66 card on installation but I was able to add the two extra hard disks after installation. This is not ideal because because my hda disk is slower than my hde or hdf. I feel a bit like a traitor at the moment because you guys have taught me alot via this list and I still think Mandrake is a better distribution!!! -If only I could get it to load. -- regards Paul This message has been sent using Linux and kmail
Re: [expert] For all of you with "One BIG anoying Pain in the A**"
I've found that LM7.1 to be far less troublesome than 7.2, especially during installation (7.2 always gives me a blank screen/freezes during the X part of the install). Then again, I use gnome and enlightenment --which are packaged better on 7.1 as well imho. MandrakeUpdate works fine, after fine tuning the package selection, I can compile things (like apache/php) to my liking w/o errors. I'm using the supplied secure kernel, as well as fine tuning security elsewhere. Honestly, LM7.1 falls in the same category as the respected "stable" RH6.2, except LM7.1 provides many more features, easy of use, and customization than RH6.2. LM7.2 is much more like RH7 in that, out of the box you're going to have a lot of work to do before you reach a "stable" (and useable!) system. --- Larry Marshall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > LM7.2. But, I think my point is still valid for a > lot of people's > > upgrades. > > No doubt about it Victor, I maintain a box for > playing. My comments > were related to the difficulties of getting version > 7+ of ANY > operating system to do basic things without having > to relearn the > entire operating system, read volumes on a dozen > websites and hope and > pray that you can fix things with a bunch of > patches. The Linux world > has bad-mouthed Microsoft for releasing buggy > programs and that's > certainly justified. BUT, Microsoft has always come > along quickly > with updates and something like W'98 was followed > quickly with minor > revision releases. Where's the "minor revision > release" from ANY of > the LINUX distro people? It's not even in their > vocabulary. There > are all sorts of things that could be stabilized in > 7.2 and updated > isos made available. I dare say that the folks at > Mandrake are > running exactly such systems on a daily basis. And > yet there's no > effort to actually do those updates other than > through the update > facility which seems to have problems of its own :-) > > > I will give them this, the 7.2 updater is a > bazillion miles ahead of > the one that came with 7.1. But since I can't even > do an expert > install that runs to completion it doesn't do me a > lot of good. > > > I think stability and featurefulness needs a > different approach. > > Yep...and that, I guess, is my basic point. That > approach is > non-existent in the current Linux community once you > get just a couple > bytes above the kernel. > > > The legendary linux stability meant stability of > the kernel. The stable > > kernel. Not all the programs, desktops, and new > programs from > > If that's true then "world domination" is > meaningless. Taking even a > small bite out of the Windows world is unreasonable. > I would grant > that the folks working close to the kernel are > properly managing > development, stability, etc. But when I hand a > system to a guy and he > then starts asking me why version 0.1 of this or > that utility doesn't > work, it suggests to me that there's a problem of > another sort with > this development model. Imagine how popular Windows > would be if > Microsoft bundled up half a dozen CDs of any and all > of the small > Visual Basic hacks that have been done and called it > part of their > package? This is what the Linux community is trying > to do right now, > mostly without a need to do so other than to feed > "1300 programs" and > "New" and other lines on a shrinkwrap box. > > > cooker. And probably not CUPS, either. Debian is > considered one of > > An operating sytem without a stable print facility > is not a desktop > operating system in this day and age. It's that > simple. > > > the most stable and featureful linux distros. They > stick to > > software, installation methods, desktops which are > usually found in > > Mandrake distros like 6.2 -7.0. And yes, if you > want cool stuff to > > Yep, and if I didn't feel that sometimes "best" > doesn't win the race > in the computer game I might give it a try. But it > seems to me that > the die is cast that the side of the street that > Mandrake and Red Hat > are on will be where the majority will live. Then > again, I've been > wrong before :-) > > > be working on your linux, you may have to tweak a > little bit to make it > > stable or usable. Sorry... > > Understand Viktor that I realize completely that if > I want a very > stable system I can get it. I'll just reload Red > Hat 6.2. My > statements are more couched in the vein that one of > two things need to > happen. Either the distro people need to spend more > time stabilizing > things or the Linux community should stop even > giving a hint that > Linux is an operating system that anyone but a > seasoned computer jock > is going to be able to use. Right now the rhetoric > of this community > doesn't fit its footsteps. Either could be out of > whack, I'm not in a > position to answer that. > > The thing I find odd is that I don't think anyone in > the Linux > community ever figured that it
Re: [expert] For all of you with "One BIG anoying Pain in the A**"
> LM7.2. But, I think my point is still valid for a lot of people's > upgrades. No doubt about it Victor, I maintain a box for playing. My comments were related to the difficulties of getting version 7+ of ANY operating system to do basic things without having to relearn the entire operating system, read volumes on a dozen websites and hope and pray that you can fix things with a bunch of patches. The Linux world has bad-mouthed Microsoft for releasing buggy programs and that's certainly justified. BUT, Microsoft has always come along quickly with updates and something like W'98 was followed quickly with minor revision releases. Where's the "minor revision release" from ANY of the LINUX distro people? It's not even in their vocabulary. There are all sorts of things that could be stabilized in 7.2 and updated isos made available. I dare say that the folks at Mandrake are running exactly such systems on a daily basis. And yet there's no effort to actually do those updates other than through the update facility which seems to have problems of its own :-) I will give them this, the 7.2 updater is a bazillion miles ahead of the one that came with 7.1. But since I can't even do an expert install that runs to completion it doesn't do me a lot of good. > I think stability and featurefulness needs a different approach. Yep...and that, I guess, is my basic point. That approach is non-existent in the current Linux community once you get just a couple bytes above the kernel. > The legendary linux stability meant stability of the kernel. The stable > kernel. Not all the programs, desktops, and new programs from If that's true then "world domination" is meaningless. Taking even a small bite out of the Windows world is unreasonable. I would grant that the folks working close to the kernel are properly managing development, stability, etc. But when I hand a system to a guy and he then starts asking me why version 0.1 of this or that utility doesn't work, it suggests to me that there's a problem of another sort with this development model. Imagine how popular Windows would be if Microsoft bundled up half a dozen CDs of any and all of the small Visual Basic hacks that have been done and called it part of their package? This is what the Linux community is trying to do right now, mostly without a need to do so other than to feed "1300 programs" and "New" and other lines on a shrinkwrap box. > cooker. And probably not CUPS, either. Debian is considered one of An operating sytem without a stable print facility is not a desktop operating system in this day and age. It's that simple. > the most stable and featureful linux distros. They stick to > software, installation methods, desktops which are usually found in > Mandrake distros like 6.2 -7.0. And yes, if you want cool stuff to Yep, and if I didn't feel that sometimes "best" doesn't win the race in the computer game I might give it a try. But it seems to me that the die is cast that the side of the street that Mandrake and Red Hat are on will be where the majority will live. Then again, I've been wrong before :-) > be working on your linux, you may have to tweak a little bit to make it > stable or usable. Sorry... Understand Viktor that I realize completely that if I want a very stable system I can get it. I'll just reload Red Hat 6.2. My statements are more couched in the vein that one of two things need to happen. Either the distro people need to spend more time stabilizing things or the Linux community should stop even giving a hint that Linux is an operating system that anyone but a seasoned computer jock is going to be able to use. Right now the rhetoric of this community doesn't fit its footsteps. Either could be out of whack, I'm not in a position to answer that. The thing I find odd is that I don't think anyone in the Linux community ever figured that it might be the distribution companies that would be the major stumbling block in putting a stable Linux on a secretarie's desktop...but it is. Let me provide an example here. Anyone who's read this conference knows of the problems associated with v7.2. We also know of the great Mandrake Cooker and realize there are guys working very hard...on something. But if I download a Cooker install do I get improved stability? No...what I get are more features. Can I go to the Mandrake site and get a fix for my installer problems with 7.2? No. So, willing or not to spend time, I struggle to have 7.2 running 100% on my system and I can't even imagine what all those people who received Mandrake Complete 7.2 for Xmas are going to do. > Just an example: For a really stable KDE desktop, you probably have > to stick to KDE 1.2...Until all the fixes for KDE 2.0 come out. Here again, I have improved stability considerably by installing KDE2.1. Is the secretary I mentioned above going to do that? Are the bunch of guys I've got running Mandrake around here going to do that when they're s
Re: [expert] For all of you with "One BIG anoying Pain in the A**"
On Tuesday 02 January 2001 03:08 am, you wrote: > On Tuesday 02 January 2001 08:44, you wrote: > > Hi Mark and all of you suffering from upgrades, > > > > In the not too distant past, I belonged to the same group as you. If > > I saw new packages (usually rpms) of the latest and greatest, I > > went ahead to installed them, and a lot of times ended up reinstalling > > everything, sometimes the whole system. There was always some > > problem with these packages. Sometimes fixable, sometimes to find > > the cure was soo long and bothersome, that a quick re-install got me > > up an running much quicker. Of course, this way you cannot learn. > > You have no idea what caused the problem. But you have to have your > > working system at any time! You want to access emails, surf the net, > > whatever is your daily task on your computer...Certainly, for most > > of us, not to look at bugs in kde2.1beta. For some people, yes that > > is, but I think they all use the common sense strategy I want to talk > > about... > > > > Then I got tired of it and started to build a new system, what is > > becoming better and better and still keeps every changes I made in > > the configuration files, upgrades etc. I am still going for the > > greatest and latest to try. But I have now two identical system, and > > I ALWAYS install the actual new *very stable* betas on the > > experimental system. And yes, a lot of times there are problems, > > having two systems did not make me a "real Linux guru", but > > certainly saved me a lot of "BIG annoying pain in the A...". Do you know > > why? Because I still have my production system, and everything WORKS > > on that!! And yes I might have to reinstall my "bleeding edge > > -upgraded" system running KDE2.01 alpha-beta-gamma :-)), but this is > > just a little playing for me, and I can decide that the promised new > > upgrade did not work, or gave just a very little advantage, and it > > is not worth to go for...Or it is installed beautifully, and stable > > and ready to use it on my production system. > > > > I only have two different root partition, my /usr/local and home > > partitions reside on different partitions so I can use them from both > > Linux system, if I want... > > > > To be free of the "BIG annoying pain" you only need 1.5 Gigabyte > > hard disk space. Trust me, it is worth it. > > > > Happy new year! > > > > Viktor > > > > On Sat, Dec 30, 2000 at 04:58:09PM -0500, Mark Weaver wrote: > > > I know...I'm replying to m own post, but...O well. > > > > > > As a followup to this thread the KDE upgrade from 2.0 to 2.0.1 was a > > > total bust! The dame thing screwed up my partition tables. (And I'd > > > really like to know how that happens.) The re-install took 8 > > > hours...I'm ready for that C4 now. (?:-P)->-<. It's just not worth the > > > aggrivation , time and trouble that upgrading causes. > > > > > > Mark > > http://www.mandrakeforum.com/article.php3?sid=20001206025807 > > There you discover how to do it(details). > > Civileme Do it? Are you refering to learning how to make C4, or properly install bleeding edge beta KDE rpms? either way thanks...I'll check it out. -- Mark "If you don't share your concepts and ideals, they end up being worthless," "Sharing is what makes them powerful." Linus Torvalds
Re: [expert] For all of you with "One BIG anoying Pain in the A**"
On 2001.01.02 Larry Marshall wrote: > Mandrake. By version 7 of anything things like print services should > be stable, period. This is especially true if the features have been > stable through the previous few versions and no increased facility is > being provided by the change. Well, don't agree with that. I don't remenber exactly what were the printer related problems, but I suppose that nobody sends a mail to a list to say 'hey, cups work'. There can be many people that probably are printing using cups and don't matter about this list. CUPS developers can test its package, beta testers can help, but one can not get all the cases tested in such a big system. I the masses don't burn CUPS, anybody will know if it works. Following your ideas, you will be still printing ASCII or PostScript Level 1 (if it is not too much bleeding-edge for you...) > > Kinda takes the wind out of the sails of "Linux is more stable than > Windows" doesn't it? How do you answer these people when they say > "But 7.2 is available in a store; can it really be that bad?" > And Linux is really much more stable that windows. All the problems I see recently in this list come from that big thing called KDE, that tries to emulate windoze not only in the look'n'feel but also in the bugginess and size. So the problem is a buggy gui (well, the problem is that the gui is what you see). I have seen much less complaints on Gnome. > I don't envy the job that companies like Mandrake have but they're > making these decisions based on short term marketing, not in order to > stabilize their products. Do you mean shipping Win 3.1 ?? Death is a maximum stability state (no entropy...). > plunge. In short, as long as distro people are driven by marketing > (and what else would drive them?) they will be adders/changers, not > subtracters/stabilizers that's a fundamental problem in my view. > I think that distro people have a very important role of 'choosers' of what soft are going to include. No distro can be equal to another. See Mdk and RH. Cousins that take very different ways. That is what I like of Mdk. RH7 could have offered a brand new buggy compiler, but XFree 4.01f was still a dream in RawHide when I donwloaded my new 4.0.2 in a working rpm from sunet. -- J.A. Magallon $> cd pub mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] $> more beer Linux werewolf 2.2.19-pre3-aa3 #3 SMP Wed Dec 27 10:25:32 CET 2000 i686
Re: [expert] For all of you with "One BIG anoying Pain in the A**"
Hi Larry, I feel what you described in here. Maybe Mark's point was not really just have an interesting beta stuff, he wanted to fix stuff in LM7.2. But, I think my point is still valid for a lot of people's upgrades. I think stability and featurefulness needs a different approach. The legendary linux stability meant stability of the kernel. The stable kernel. Not all the programs, desktops, and new programs from cooker. And probably not CUPS, either. Debian is considered one of the most stable and featureful linux distros. They stick to software, installation methods, desktops which are usually found in Mandrake distros like 6.2 -7.0. And yes, if you want cool stuff to be working on your linux, you may have to tweak a little bit to make it stable or usable. Sorry... Just an example: For a really stable KDE desktop, you probably have to stick to KDE 1.2...Until all the fixes for KDE 2.0 come out. Well, I have to admit, I switched to linux some 4 years ago not because of stability, but couriosity and because I allways change stuff on my computer, try out things. I got bored with Windows, it was closed I knew it, it was not interesting any more. It did not help me to learn more... But of course, I also need a working version of some kind of OS. That is why I suggested to have two copies of the same distro. By the way, a lot of the problems in LM7.2 are probably hardware and setup dependent. My *stable* distro is a LM7.2, with KDE 2.0 and it works for me...CUPS too. Actually without CUPS I would not be able to print at all, because my printer is not supported. Finally, as much as I love linux, I have to say, linux is still not for the Walmart people. Never was. And when it will be suitable for those people, its name will be Windows, and comes pre-installed...:-)) That is just my view right now, and if I will be wrong about it, I will be the happiest to see the Linux World Domination. Amen. Viktor On Tue, Jan 02, 2001 at 10:54:55AM -0500, Larry Marshall wrote: > > going to convince your buddies to try it (remember the World > Domination theme of the Linux movement) and they're not computer geeks > you have to have something that they can use without going through > what you're talking about. How does it sound to say > > "Well, I'll give you version 7.1 of LM as it's pretty stable. You > won't be able to use the nice stuff I've mentioned in the new version > of GIMP and you won't have any of these nice windows I have in > KDE2.1. I'm sorry, no, we'll have to update your Netscape so that > 4.73 doesn't bleed memory all over the place and no, pppoe isn't built > into 7.1 but we can easily get what you need and install it. Oh sure, > once Mandrake gets its 7.2 installer sorted out, all this other stuff > stabilized, and I figure out how to get CUPS to reliably print we > might be able to make a run at installing this newer stuff on your > system." > > Kinda takes the wind out of the sails of "Linux is more stable than > Windows" doesn't it? How do you answer these people when they say > "But 7.2 is available in a store; can it really be that bad?" > > I don't envy the job that companies like Mandrake have but they're > making these decisions based on short term marketing, not in order to > stabilize their products. The CUPS change wasn't positive and I've > yet to read anything to suggest that anyone thinks it was, except for > maybe the author and Mandrake. Why was it done in the midst of > struggling to deal with a major leap in the KDE interface, with > KOffice being dumped into the mix and a changing file system? Mark's > point, and mine, is that some of Linux above the kernel level needs to > remain stable for some period of time and change for change sake might > fit a geek-development mindset but it doesn't create commercial > products. > > There's an interesting thing about the Linux dynamic. Linus Torvalds > and others talk about how the open source concept causes rapid change > and that approval for features come from the users. If something is > popular in one distro it becomes part of all of them very quickly is > the chant. What seems to be missing from the equation presented is > that the distros are adders and changers; they rarely subtract or > stabilize. > > Once everyone in the community proclaims that this or that application > doesn't work worth a darn, where is the compulsion to remove it from > the system. Once the world proclaims that they like their Linux "like > this" and all the distros become the same, what do the distro people > do to set themselves apart and provide the box art people with fodder > for selling their product? They change it, that's what and this is > the dilemma we have right now. Red Hat has just done this with their > v7.0 upgrade. They provided some improved functionality but most of > what got added/changed makes 6.2 worse as 6.2 was very stable, the > tools that came with it worked, and Red Hat hasn't yet made the KDE2.0 > plunge.
Re: [expert] For all of you with "One BIG anoying Pain in the A**"
> > Then I got tired of it and started to build a new system, what is > > becoming better and better and still keeps every changes I made in > > the configuration files, upgrades etc. I am still going for the > > greatest and latest to try. But I have now two identical system, and Good advice Victor, if you want to learn Linux but I think you missed the point of Mark's rant. He's not trying to run beta this or that, he's trying to run what shakes out of the box of VERSION 7.2 of Linux Mandrake. By version 7 of anything things like print services should be stable, period. This is especially true if the features have been stable through the previous few versions and no increased facility is being provided by the change. Learning about Linux is fun, playing with bleeding edge software is nice. But at some point most people have to get work done. If you're going to convince your buddies to try it (remember the World Domination theme of the Linux movement) and they're not computer geeks you have to have something that they can use without going through what you're talking about. How does it sound to say "Well, I'll give you version 7.1 of LM as it's pretty stable. You won't be able to use the nice stuff I've mentioned in the new version of GIMP and you won't have any of these nice windows I have in KDE2.1. I'm sorry, no, we'll have to update your Netscape so that 4.73 doesn't bleed memory all over the place and no, pppoe isn't built into 7.1 but we can easily get what you need and install it. Oh sure, once Mandrake gets its 7.2 installer sorted out, all this other stuff stabilized, and I figure out how to get CUPS to reliably print we might be able to make a run at installing this newer stuff on your system." Kinda takes the wind out of the sails of "Linux is more stable than Windows" doesn't it? How do you answer these people when they say "But 7.2 is available in a store; can it really be that bad?" I don't envy the job that companies like Mandrake have but they're making these decisions based on short term marketing, not in order to stabilize their products. The CUPS change wasn't positive and I've yet to read anything to suggest that anyone thinks it was, except for maybe the author and Mandrake. Why was it done in the midst of struggling to deal with a major leap in the KDE interface, with KOffice being dumped into the mix and a changing file system? Mark's point, and mine, is that some of Linux above the kernel level needs to remain stable for some period of time and change for change sake might fit a geek-development mindset but it doesn't create commercial products. There's an interesting thing about the Linux dynamic. Linus Torvalds and others talk about how the open source concept causes rapid change and that approval for features come from the users. If something is popular in one distro it becomes part of all of them very quickly is the chant. What seems to be missing from the equation presented is that the distros are adders and changers; they rarely subtract or stabilize. Once everyone in the community proclaims that this or that application doesn't work worth a darn, where is the compulsion to remove it from the system. Once the world proclaims that they like their Linux "like this" and all the distros become the same, what do the distro people do to set themselves apart and provide the box art people with fodder for selling their product? They change it, that's what and this is the dilemma we have right now. Red Hat has just done this with their v7.0 upgrade. They provided some improved functionality but most of what got added/changed makes 6.2 worse as 6.2 was very stable, the tools that came with it worked, and Red Hat hasn't yet made the KDE2.0 plunge. In short, as long as distro people are driven by marketing (and what else would drive them?) they will be adders/changers, not subtracters/stabilizers that's a fundamental problem in my view. BTW, the only thing that has allowed me to run v7.2 of Mandrake was climbing out a bit on that bleeding edge and getting a stable version of KDE. Do you really think Walmart operating system purchasers will/should_have_to do this? Cheers --- Larry
Re: [Re: [expert] For all of you with "One BIG anoying Pain in the A**"]
On Tuesday 02 January 2001 10:23, you wrote: > civileme <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Hi Civileme, > > Thanks for the article, interesting and helpful indeed. At the beginning of > the article you mentioned that the installer feels that it has to overwrite > the old system. If you have a separate, common boot partition, no problem; my example is without that. Actually I did not experience anything like that. When I > installed a new system (not from cooker, though) I just made a new root > partition, mounted the old /home and /usr/local and the windoze partitions > + the old linux root partition under /mnt/oldlinux. After that I let the > installer to copy everything to the new root partition, and did not install > bootloader (you can actually make a bootdisk, but you do not even have > to). Then from the old system, just edit menu.lst, put a new title and > point it to the appropriate new root and boot partition (which was the same > in my case). And you can boot the new system from the grub, which was > installed when you put the old system there... > > Viktor > > > http://www.mandrakeforum.com/article.php3?sid=20001206025807 > > > > There you discover how to do it(details). > > > > Civileme > > Viktor Lakics > > Through the Internet: > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.amexmail.com/?A=1
Re: [Re: [expert] For all of you with "One BIG anoying Pain in the A**"]
civileme <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Hi Civileme, Thanks for the article, interesting and helpful indeed. At the beginning of the article you mentioned that the installer feels that it has to overwrite the old system. Actually I did not experience anything like that. When I installed a new system (not from cooker, though) I just made a new root partition, mounted the old /home and /usr/local and the windoze partitions + the old linux root partition under /mnt/oldlinux. After that I let the installer to copy everything to the new root partition, and did not install bootloader (you can actually make a bootdisk, but you do not even have to). Then from the old system, just edit menu.lst, put a new title and point it to the appropriate new root and boot partition (which was the same in my case). And you can boot the new system from the grub, which was installed when you put the old system there... Viktor > http://www.mandrakeforum.com/article.php3?sid=20001206025807 > > There you discover how to do it(details). > > Civileme Viktor Lakics Through the Internet: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.amexmail.com/?A=1
Re: [expert] For all of you with "One BIG anoying Pain in the A**"
On Tuesday 02 January 2001 08:44, you wrote: > Hi Mark and all of you suffering from upgrades, > > In the not too distant past, I belonged to the same group as you. If > I saw new packages (usually rpms) of the latest and greatest, I > went ahead to installed them, and a lot of times ended up reinstalling > everything, sometimes the whole system. There was always some > problem with these packages. Sometimes fixable, sometimes to find > the cure was soo long and bothersome, that a quick re-install got me > up an running much quicker. Of course, this way you cannot learn. > You have no idea what caused the problem. But you have to have your > working system at any time! You want to access emails, surf the net, > whatever is your daily task on your computer...Certainly, for most > of us, not to look at bugs in kde2.1beta. For some people, yes that > is, but I think they all use the common sense strategy I want to talk > about... > > Then I got tired of it and started to build a new system, what is > becoming better and better and still keeps every changes I made in > the configuration files, upgrades etc. I am still going for the > greatest and latest to try. But I have now two identical system, and > I ALWAYS install the actual new *very stable* betas on the > experimental system. And yes, a lot of times there are problems, > having two systems did not make me a "real Linux guru", but > certainly saved me a lot of "BIG annoying pain in the A...". Do you know > why? Because I still have my production system, and everything WORKS > on that!! And yes I might have to reinstall my "bleeding edge > -upgraded" system running KDE2.01 alpha-beta-gamma :-)), but this is > just a little playing for me, and I can decide that the promised new > upgrade did not work, or gave just a very little advantage, and it > is not worth to go for...Or it is installed beautifully, and stable > and ready to use it on my production system. > > I only have two different root partition, my /usr/local and home > partitions reside on different partitions so I can use them from both > Linux system, if I want... > > To be free of the "BIG annoying pain" you only need 1.5 Gigabyte > hard disk space. Trust me, it is worth it. > > Happy new year! > > Viktor > > On Sat, Dec 30, 2000 at 04:58:09PM -0500, Mark Weaver wrote: > > I know...I'm replying to m own post, but...O well. > > > > As a followup to this thread the KDE upgrade from 2.0 to 2.0.1 was a > > total bust! The dame thing screwed up my partition tables. (And I'd > > really like to know how that happens.) The re-install took 8 hours...I'm > > ready for that C4 now. (?:-P)->-<. It's just not worth the aggrivation > > , time and trouble that upgrading causes. > > > > Mark http://www.mandrakeforum.com/article.php3?sid=20001206025807 There you discover how to do it(details). Civileme
