Re: [Finale] [OT] Color Laserprinters Duplex Experiences

[Rocky Road]

In conclusion, I'm very glad of my C4000, no technical or printing
problems 'till now, and it's gradually paying back the money I invested
for, as my financial planning had, in the best case, previewed.
Giovanni Andreani
Wow. In Australia that's a $5000 printer!
--
Rocky Road - in Oz
"Fleeing from the Cylon tyranny, the last Battlestar, Galactica, 
leads a ragtag, fugitive fleet, on a lonely quest, for a shining 
planet known as Earth."
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Re: [Finale] .eps in Word

[Rocky Road]

Greetings...
This problem may be old news for many of you, but it's new to me.
I've just started using Word as my word processor after years of 
using WordPerfect.  I just did a test to see how smoothly .EPS 
import into Word and how they look on-screen.

How smoothly?  Very.
How do they look?  Wrong.  The music fonts don't turn up as they're 
supposed to (regardless of whether they're in Petrucci or Maestro). 
These tests were of .EPS files that do work just fine when imported 
into WordPerfect and into page layout programs.  If the files are OK 
(and they include the font, plus a TIFF display version), why isn't 
Word displaying them properly???

ng
What Computer Platform?
What Operating System version?
What version of Word?
What version of Finale?
On the Mac side, The quality of the EPS preview was downgraded 
significantly in Finale 2004. I use Finale EPS's in Word and up till 
then had found them very readable on screen. In 2004 they are awful.

--
Rocky Road - in Oz
"Fleeing from the Cylon tyranny, the last Battlestar, Galactica, 
leads a ragtag, fugitive fleet, on a lonely quest, for a shining 
planet known as Earth."
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Re: [Finale] Discs

[Eden - Lawrence D.]

Dean,

Did you burn an MP3 CD by mistake?  How old are the CD players in your
house?  Only new CD players can handle MP3.



On Thu, 19 Aug 2004, Dean M. Estabrook wrote:

> I know this is a bit off topic, but you guys seem to know a lot of
> stuff. I just tried to burn a CD on my iMac.  It plays back fine on my
> computer,  but no CD player I own will read it at all. As per
> instructions, I checked the Itunes preferences, and selected Audio CD
> in the Burn pane.  Anybody have a clue?
>
> I thank you in advance for your collective wisdom.
>
> Dean
>
> I err, ergo sum
>
> Dean M. Estabrook
> Director of Music
> St. Andrew Presbyterian Church
> Yuba City, CA
>
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Re: [Finale] Re: Discs

[Noel Stoutenburg]

Dean M. Estabrook wrote, in part
... to burn a CD which can be played back on a comercial  player,  one 
must use a CD-R blank, not a CD-RW blank  which, of course, I 
used. The one I burned won't go to waste,
to which I would note that the value of the CD-RW is that even when the 
daughter is done with the disk burned, it can be cleared, and reused...

ns
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Re: [Finale] RE: [OT] Color Laserprinters Duplex Experiences

[Noel Stoutenburg]

Ryan Beard wrote:
I've had wonderful experiences with my Ricoh Laser
Printer AP2610N. Although this model has since been
discontinued, 

replaced with the 610; which I considered recommending to the original 
poster, however, he specified color, and IIRC, the Ricoh is only a B&W 
laser

ns
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Re: [Finale] .eps in Word

[Neal Gittleman]

Sorry not to be clear/complete.  It was late...
This problem may be old news for many of you, but it's new to me.
I've just started using Word as my word processor after years of 
using WordPerfect.  I just did a test to see how smoothly .EPS import 
into Word and how they look on-screen.

How smoothly?  Very.
How do they look?  Wrong.  The music fonts don't turn up as they're 
supposed to (regardless of whether they're in Petrucci or Maestro). 
These tests were of .EPS files that do work just fine when imported 
into WordPerfect and into page layout programs.  If the files are OK 
(and they include the font, plus a TIFF display version), why isn't 
Word displaying them properly???

ng
What Computer Platform?  Mac G4 PowerBook
What Operating System version?  10.3.4
What version of Word?  Mac 2004 v.11.0
What version of Finale?  .EPS files created with FinMac 2k3.r1
On the Mac side, The quality of the EPS preview was downgraded 
significantly in Finale 2004. I use Finale EPS's in Word and up till 
then had found them very readable on screen. In 2004 they are awful.
It's not a question of awful quality, it's like Maestro/Petrucci aren't 
installed -- ae's instead of noteheads, etc.  (And Maestro/Petrucci ARE 
available to Word -- listed in the font list, and I've used 'em for 
some music symbols in text...

ng
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Re: [Finale] [OT] Color Laserprinters Duplex Experiences

[Giovanni Andreani]

>>In conclusion, I'm very glad of my C4000, no technical or printing
>>problems 'till now, and it's gradually paying back the money I invested
>>for, as my financial planning had, in the best case, previewed.
>>
>>Giovanni Andreani

>Wow. In Australia that's a $5000 printer!
>
>-- 
>
>Rocky Road - in Oz

I got it on a special offer for ¤ 1,450 which is almost $ 2,500
(Australian Dollars)
That's why it's paying money back (!)

Giovanni  Andreani



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[Finale] WinFin 2004/5 bug explained

[K. Kastning]

Hi list,
This is in regards to David Bailey's question yesterday, asking me to explain the bug to which I refer.  This bug occurs during speedy entry/show multiple pages.  This combination has been fine ever since the mult. pages feature was introduced, which has been a few years.  The bug is this.  In Fin 2k4 (and from what MM has told me, also Fin2k5), when in speedy entry/mult. pages, as entries are made on the page, one of two things happens.  Either the multiple pages you have showing disappear as soon as you start typing in notes, and/or as the cursor moves to the next bar, all notes previously enter disappear from the page.  Enter notes, go to next bar, notes just entered disappear.  If you hit Ctrl+D, the notes re-appear, but it's not a viable solution to do this every time you move to a new measure.  Finale freely admits the existance of this bug, and clearly states they have no plans to fix it.
Regards,-kkwww.kevinkastning.com
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Re: [Finale] WinFin 2004/5 bug explained

[Aaron Sherber]

At 08:57 AM 08/20/2004, K. Kastning wrote:
> If you hit Ctrl+D, the notes re-appear,
>but it's not a viable solution to do this every time you move to a new
>measure.  Finale freely admits the existance of this bug, and clearly states
>they have no plans to fix it.
Coda's system for fixing bugs is based on how many people complain about 
them. I agree wholeheartedly that this should be *one* factor in 
prioritizing bugs, but not the only one.

This is a great example of why. I've never noticed this bug because I 
always do note entry in Speedy in scroll view, not page view; this 
particular bug will never bother me, and so I'll never write in to 
complain. But it strikes me nonetheless an appalling bug, one which renders 
virtually useless one of the entry methods Finale purports to make 
available. Even if only a handful of people use this entry method (and it 
may be lots and lots; I don't know) it should be fixed.

My personal peeve involves Ctrl-Spacebar dragging for playback, which is a 
great way to spot check the sound of a couple of bars. Starting a couple of 
versions ago, when you do this in scroll view, as the mouse crosses over 
any barline, Finale plays back very briefly the opening chord of the piece. 
Again, it may be that not many people use this feature, but Coda has 
advertised it as a feature, and this bug renders it quite useless.

I think what makes all of this problematic is that Finale has *so many* 
bugs. They claim that they can't address everything and still attend to new 
development, which is why they have settled on their method of 
prioritization. This may be true, but it's a hole they've dug for 
themselves. I would gladly pay twice the annual upgrade price for an 
upgrade that added no new features at all but rather made a sizable dent in 
the list of bugs.

Aaron.
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Re: [Finale] WinFin 2004/5 bug explained

[Éric Dussault]

I can see how frustrating it is for you to have this bug, but we all know that MakeMusic will repair them depending on how many people complain about them. I fear that very few people will in this case for two reasons : 1. Many people enter their notes in scroll view
2. Those (like me) who enter the notes in Page View will unlikely use multiple page because it is of no use at this stage of the music typesetting process (maybe I overlooked and then you can explain to me the benefits of having mulitiple pages when entering notes). The only time I use multiple pages in when I fine tune the layout and make sure that facing pages are balanced.
This IS a bug, but I guess that many other bugs will be corrected, and as the effect of this bug is not that catastrophic, it is unlikely that this will be a priority for the people at MM.

Éric

Le 20 août 2004, à 09:48, Aaron Sherber a écrit :

At 08:57 AM 08/20/2004, K. Kastning wrote:
> If you hit Ctrl+D, the notes re-appear,
>but it's not a viable solution to do this every time you move to a new
>measure.  Finale freely admits the existance of this bug, and clearly states
>they have no plans to fix it.

Coda's system for fixing bugs is based on how many people complain about them. I agree wholeheartedly that this should be *one* factor in prioritizing bugs, but not the only one.___
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[Finale] OT: perc. history

[Andrew Stiller]

Most of my books and  records are still in storage following last 
December's (!) fire, so I need some help w. a citation.

For an article I'm writing, can anyone on the list supply me with a 
nice, published reference (even an LP/CD liner note will do) to the 
fact that Cage, Harrison et al started fooling around w. exotic 
percussion in the '40s because these insts. could be acquired cheaply 
in San Francisco's Chinatown?
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Re: [Finale] Re: Discs

[Dean M. Estabrook]

Which begs my next question  how does one clear a CD-RW disc?
Dean
On Aug 20, 2004, at 3:43 AM, Noel Stoutenburg wrote:
Dean M. Estabrook wrote, in part
... to burn a CD which can be played back on a comercial  player,  
one must use a CD-R blank, not a CD-RW blank  which, of course, I 
used. The one I burned won't go to waste,
to which I would note that the value of the CD-RW is that even when 
the daughter is done with the disk burned, it can be cleared, and 
reused...

ns
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I err, ergo sum
Dean M. Estabrook
Director of Music
St. Andrew Presbyterian Church
Yuba City, CA
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Re: [Finale] WinFin 2004/5 bug explained

[David W. Fenton]

On 20 Aug 2004 at 10:18, Éric Dussault wrote:

> I can see how frustrating it is for you to have this bug, but we all
> know that MakeMusic will repair them depending on how many people
> complain about them. I fear that very few people will in this case for
> two reasons : 1. Many people enter their notes in scroll view 2. Those
> (like me) who enter the notes in Page View will unlikely use multiple
> page because it is of no use at this stage of the music typesetting
> process (maybe I overlooked and then you can explain to me the
> benefits of having mulitiple pages when entering notes). The only time
> I use multiple pages in when I fine tune the layout and make sure that
> facing pages are balanced. This IS a bug, but I guess that many other
> bugs will be corrected, and as the effect of this bug is not that
> catastrophic, it is unlikely that this will be a priority for the
> people at MM.

There's one big reason why the bug should be fixed:

SIBELIUS

Anyone coming to Finale from that background will immediately discard 
Finale as a viable product because of this bug.

So, it really makes no difference whatsoever if experienced users 
will never encounter the bug.

And using majority vote for choosing bug fixes is incredibly stupid 
when the bug is likely to be encountered most often by people who are 
not committed users of the program. This is a threshold bug, one that 
is going to be most serious for casual users, one that will likely go 
largely unreported precisely because the people encountering it will 
simply abandon Finale on the basis of this kind of stupid bug.

This is why Finale is going down the tubes -- dumb ideas like fixing 
bugs according to how many people complain about them, instead of 
evaluating each bug for how serious it is for the people it affects 
(even if they never report it).

-- 
David W. Fentonhttp://www.bway.net/~dfenton
David Fenton Associateshttp://www.bway.net/~dfassoc


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Re: [Finale] WinFin 2004/5 bug explained

[dhbailey]

Éric Dussault wrote:
I can see how frustrating it is for you to have this bug, but we all 
know that MakeMusic will repair them depending on how many people 
complain about them. I fear that very few people will in this case for 
two reasons : 1. Many people enter their notes in scroll view
2. Those (like me) who enter the notes in Page View will unlikely use 
multiple page because it is of no use at this stage of the music 
typesetting process (maybe I overlooked and then you can explain to me 
the benefits of having mulitiple pages when entering notes). The only 
time I use multiple pages in when I fine tune the layout and make sure 
that facing pages are balanced.
This IS a bug, but I guess that many other bugs will be corrected, and 
as the effect of this bug is not that catastrophic, it is unlikely that 
this will be a priority for the people at MM.

It is a bug, no question, but it's not a destructive bug, it changes no 
data, it prevents no data from being entered.

When I'm entering data I only care about the measure I'm entering data 
into at the moment so for me it isn't even a particularly annoying bug 
for me.

I just opened up page view, show multiple pages, and began entering 
notes.  You don't have to hit ctrl-D to show the notes, simply click 
outside the speedy entry frame and the notes show up.  Click back into 
the measure you want to and you can start entering notes again, if for 
any reason you need to see what you just entered.  Two mouse clicks and 
you have what you want.

Yes, MakeMusic should fix this, just as every bug should be fixed.  Will 
it prevent anybody from making valuable use of Finale?  Absolutely not.

Should it prevent anybody from upgrading?  Only if this particular bug 
annoys you.  Why anybody needs to see multiple pages while entering 
notes in a single measure is beyond me, but we each have individual 
working habits, so I guess some people find such a feature important.

I only rarely view multiple pages at once, preferring to do page layout 
with a single page showing and preferring to do note entry in scroll view.

--
David H. Bailey
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Re: [Finale] Re: Discs

[dhbailey]

Dean M. Estabrook wrote:
Which begs my next question  how does one clear a CD-RW disc?
Dean
Your CD burning software most likely has an Erase All Data From Disc or 
some such feature.

--
David H. Bailey
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Re: [Finale] Re: Discs

[Dean M. Estabrook]

On Aug 20, 2004, at 10:36 AM, dhbailey wrote:
Dean M. Estabrook wrote:
Which begs my next question  how does one clear a CD-RW disc?
Dean
Your CD burning software most likely has an Erase All Data From Disc 
or some such feature.

--
David H. Bailey
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Ah, ok. I'll go alookin.
Thanks,
Dean
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[Finale] Re: Tuplet bug in Fin2005 demo

[Aaron Sherber]

Hi all,
FWIW, I received the following from WinSupport about the tuplet bug I reported:
>For your concern about that tuplet bug, it is something we know about, and
>it is being looked at for being fixed in an upcoming maintenance release if
>possible.
I could go on for several paragraphs about what it says that they are 
releasing a product with a known and obvious bug in one of their new and 
highly touted features, and that it will be fixed "if possible" -- but I 
think I'll just leave it at that.

Aaron.
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Re: [Finale] Re: Tuplet bug in Fin2005 demo

[dhbailey]

Aaron Sherber wrote:
Hi all,
FWIW, I received the following from WinSupport about the tuplet bug I 
reported:

 >For your concern about that tuplet bug, it is something we know about, 
and
 >it is being looked at for being fixed in an upcoming maintenance 
release if
 >possible.

I could go on for several paragraphs about what it says that they are 
releasing a product with a known and obvious bug in one of their new and 
highly touted features, and that it will be fixed "if possible" -- but I 
think I'll just leave it at that.

It certainly seems like Finale's a sinking ship, what's more one with a 
totally unwarranted arrogance.

Combine this "we'll fix it if possible, maybe in a maintenance update" 
along with the implied "if it's not possible, or if we don't feel like 
it, we won't fix it, or maybe we'll fix in an update we'll try to make 
you pay for" with the totally uncalled for "yes it's a bug and no, we 
don't intend ever to fix it" attitude expressed about the recognizable 
and easily reproducible 2-page-in-speedy-entry-disappearing-from-view 
bug, and it seems like MakeMusic is in need of a corporate attitude 
adjustment.

Either that or they're actively TRYING to kill Finale and drive 
everybody over to Sibelius.

Just be forewarned, those who are thinking of jumping to Sibelius, that 
they have a list which, according to the company representative who is a 
member of the Sibelius yahoogroup, is "long and growing" of things which 
"may be considered for a future version" and "may be fixed in a future 
version."

Seems like the notation market is so small that good attitudes aren't 
considered a positive business asset.

Too bad -- let's hope they get a corporate manager who really cares 
about the customers.

--
David H. Bailey
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Re: [Finale] Re: Tuplet bug in Fin2005 demo

[Robert Patterson]

dhbailey wrote:
>
It certainly seems like Finale's a sinking ship, what's more one with a 
totally unwarranted arrogance.
Makemusic's quarterly reports are available for anyone to see at their 
website. Finale 2004 seems to have provided a much-needed cash infusion, 
to the tune of a 74% increase for the most recent quarter. Their 
cash-flow situation is apparently positive, even if they are booking a 
loss for the quarter of $0.5 million. These are hardly the numbers of a 
sinking ship.

I've worked a good bit with Makemusic employees (entirely by email). No 
one has ever seemed arrogant to me. On the contrary, my contacts there 
are always most cordial and helpful to the extent it is possible.

I am also unhappy with some of the bugs in enhanced tuplets, but I 
hardly see the bugs as cause to pillory the product or the company. 
Finale has introduced annoying bugs with nearly every new feature 
they've ever added, yet here we are still using it.

To get the CDs printed and in our greedy paws requires lead time. They 
have to decide go/no-go long before the ship date. Any bugs that surface 
after the go decision have to wait for maintenance. This has been a fact 
of Finale life for at least a decade. For this reason, I *never* start 
using a new version until after the maintenance release is available.

If the Makemusic reps said they would try to fix this tuplet bug in the 
maintenance release, then I would take that at face value. They will be 
juggling many defects with limited resources to fix them. If the rep 
said "maybe", it just means they don't want to be held accountable if it 
doesn't make it. What they are probably really saying is that this bug 
is planned for a fix, but they can't guarantee it. We do not know what 
is involved. If the fix requires them to spend 8 weeks entirely 
rewriting and retesting enhanced tuplets, then the fix probably won't 
make it in.

The thing is, you can always turn the enhanced feature off, in which 
case you are no worse off than you are now. Even with the enhanced 
positioning turned off, there is still much to rejoice at in the new 
tuplets. The new features I like are the metric numerical centering and 
  the new number formats.

--
Robert Patterson
http://RobertGPatterson.com
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[Finale] In defense of MakeMusic!

[Noel Stoutenburg]

Friends:
In my opinion, the negativism displayed relative to the two bugs 
reported by Kevin and David is unwarranted. 

Now, I willing to concede Kevin might well deserve a more thorough 
response to his complaint about the "multi-page / speedy entry" bug he 
reported.  Gut this response occurred during what I expect is the 
busiest week of the year for  MakeMusic!, and given that the MAC and WIN 
upgrades are going out at the same time, and on much shorter shipping 
schedule than previously, I'm willing to cut some slack in this case. 

As to releasing the product on time with the tuplet bug, as far as 
holding back the product to fix the bug, I don't know what the relative 
costs are of the two options.  I know that it sometimes happens in 
software manufacture / distribution business, that in order to guarantee 
that your software will be burned when you want it, you pay a premium 
price up front to have the discs manufactured at a particular time, and 
some, or all of the price of that is non-refundable.  If Finale has this 
type of an agreement with the manufacturer of the discs, then it becomes 
necessary to determine whether the bug is so critical that it is worth 
the money it will cost to not do the run when contracted, and hope that 
it will be possible to find a facility at the time the software is ready 
to manufacture the discs then. 

As to the financial health of MakeMusic!, based upon the press release 
of earlier this month, I'm not sure there is
much to worry about  (cf:  
)

There are only a couple of people on this list who are in a position to 
know how big the Finale bug and request books are, and what priority the 
individual items in those volumes have.  I'm prepared to assume that 
even more important in assigning priorities to bugs are not only the 
number of people who are affected by them, but how difficult various 
bugs are to fix.  I'm guessing that therre are a number of easy bugs 
which get fixed quickly  and a number of impossible bugs that will never 
be fixed (I remember an explanation about one bug which traced it to a 
bug in code purchased from an outside supplier).

For me, I've no complaints.  Off the top of my head, I can't think of 
anything I've wanted to do, that I've not been able to do with Finale, 
and I think they do a fine job.  Their product is certainly better than 
the notation software I could create myself.

ns
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Re: [Finale] Re: Tuplet bug in Fin2005 demo

[Darcy James Argue]

What Robert said.  Seriously.  Aaron, they told you they know about the 
bug, they are actively trying to fix it, and if possible, it will be 
dealt with in the first maintenance release.  What more do you want?

- Darcy
-
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Brooklyn, NY
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Re: [Finale] In defense of MakeMusic!

[Eric Dannewitz]

Totally agree with you. I looked at that tuplet bug, and I agree it is 
there, but I don't really see it causing me issues, and if they fix it, 
great. Otherwise, Finale 2004 has been great, and looking forward to 2005.

Noel Stoutenburg wrote:
Friends:
In my opinion, the negativism displayed relative to the two bugs 
reported by Kevin and David is unwarranted.
*SNIPED*
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[Finale] Finale's TOP100 bugs!!!

[Wiz-of-Oz]

So how about creating a list of all important bugs in Finale
-- important for us on this list -- and then let everyone mail it to MM?

Abel K.

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Re: [Finale] Re: Tuplet bug in Fin2005 demo

[Aaron Sherber]

At 07:25 PM 08/20/2004, Darcy James Argue wrote:
>What Robert said.  Seriously.  Aaron, they told you they know about the
>bug, they are actively trying to fix it, and if possible, it will be
>dealt with in the first maintenance release.  What more do you want?
It's bad faith to ship a product with a serious known bug in an advertised 
new feature. For me, that's what it comes down to. The good faith options 
would have been delaying release until it was fixed, leaving out that 
option until it worked correctly, or mentioning in a footnote that the 
feature was incomplete.

(A few years ago, I was running Finale under NT4 and had several issues. 
Upon contacting winsupport, I was told that those features were not fully 
supported under NT4, despite the fact that the product was advertised as 
working under that OS. And yes, this was at a time when NT4 was a current OS.)

Aaron.
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Re: [Finale] In defense of MakeMusic!

[Aaron Sherber]

At 07:26 PM 08/20/2004, Noel Stoutenburg wrote:
>that your software will be burned when you want it, you pay a premium
>price up front to have the discs manufactured at a particular time, and
>some, or all of the price of that is non-refundable.  If Finale has this
>type of an agreement with the manufacturer of the discs, then it becomes
>necessary to determine whether the bug is so critical that it is worth
>the money it will cost to not do the run when contracted, and hope that
>it will be possible to find a facility at the time the software is ready
>to manufacture the discs then.
See my other post. In my personal opinion, if they determined that they 
could not fix a basic bug in a newly advertised feature and still ship on 
time, they should have left the feature out. Since they had not yet 
advertised the feature, no one would have missed it.

>For me, I've no complaints.  Off the top of my head, I can't think of
>anything I've wanted to do, that I've not been able to do with Finale,
>and I think they do a fine job.  Their product is certainly better than
>the notation software I could create myself.
I think both of those statements are true, but they're a little beside the 
point to me. I paid for software that was advertised to do certain things, 
and it does not do those things. It's still better than no Finale at all, 
and I can usually find workarounds, but I didn't get what I paid for.

Aaron.
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Re: [Finale] Re: Tuplet bug in Fin2005 demo

[Aaron Sherber]

At 07:11 PM 08/20/2004, Robert Patterson wrote:
>On the contrary, my contacts there
>are always most cordial and helpful to the extent it is possible.
Personally, I would say that's true roughly half the time, but then your 
mileage may vary.

>I am also unhappy with some of the bugs in enhanced tuplets, but I
>hardly see the bugs as cause to pillory the product or the company.
Again, speaking personally, I have grown increasingly exasperated at Coda's 
failure to address longstanding bugs which render useless features which 
they advertise. Automatically positioning tuplets are a big timesaver 
(especially for tuplets that start with a rest), but not if you have to 
tweak them in other ways. And yes, I know that there are ways to address 
tuplet issues with your plugin, but that's not my point here.

>To get the CDs printed and in our greedy paws requires lead time. They
>have to decide go/no-go long before the ship date. Any bugs that surface
>after the go decision have to wait for maintenance.
This is a bug I noticed within one minute (literally) of opening the demo 
and starting to play with the tuplets. ("They adjust when you move notes? 
Gee, let me try...") I have a hard time believing that this is a bug that 
came up late in the beta cycle. If I had to guess, I'd say it come up 
fairly early, but they realized they couldn't fix it and still ship on 
time. That they decided to stick to the ship date and still advertise 
enhanced tuplets as a new feature strikes me as particularly dishonest.

>is planned for a fix, but they can't guarantee it. We do not know what
>is involved. If the fix requires them to spend 8 weeks entirely
>rewriting and retesting enhanced tuplets, then the fix probably won't
>make it in.
In that case -- again, assuming they've known about this for a while -- it 
would have been more honest to just leave out enhanced tuplets, or at least 
the auto-positioning aspect.

Aaron.
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Re: [Finale] Finale's TOP100 bugs!!!

[James Bailey]

The only problem with that is that *every* bug will be *really* important to
someone.  And I'm sure they already know about *all* the bugs.


-- 
Girls have cooties


Auf 20.08.2004 16:47 Uhr, schrieb "Wiz-of-Oz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

> So how about creating a list of all important bugs in Finale
> -- important for us on this list -- and then let everyone mail it to MM?
> 
> Abel K.
> 
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Re: [Finale] Tuplet bug in Fin2005 demo

[Dan Carno]

Hi Aaron,
I got my upgrade this morning.  This same bug also occurs if you turn one 
of these notes into a chord.  This could make Enhanced Triplets a trial for 
anyone that uses  a computer keyboard for notation entry.

Dan Carno
At 08:23 PM 8/19/2004, you wrote:
Hi all,
Can any of the beta testers confirm this:
1. Start Fin2005 (I downloaded the demo).
2. Open a new default document.
3. Enter an eighth note triplet (Enhanced Triplet) consisting of an eighth 
rest followed by two eighth notes.

4. In Speedy Entry, grab one of the eighth notes and drag it up and down. 
The triplet number moves vertically at a different rate from the bracket. 
This means that if the two pitches are sufficiently far apart, the number 
actually appears completely above or below the bracket, rather than in the 
middle of the two bracket halves. I only had to make the pitches an octave 
apart to see this. Even with smaller intervals, if you have a succession 
of these triplets (with different intervals) the number will be vertically 
aligned with the bracket differently for each tuplet. See 
http://files.aaron.sherber.com/tuplet.gif where the number gradually comes 
into line with the bracket.

If this is true, it means that the enhanced tuplets -- which were the only 
thing that sounded interesting to me in the new version -- are actually 
just useless in a different way from existing tuplets.

Aaron.
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Re: [Finale] Re: Tuplet bug in Fin2005 demo

[Noel Stoutenburg]

Darcy James Argue wrote, in part:
>What Robert said.  Seriously.  Aaron, they told you they know about the
>bug, they are actively trying to fix it, and if possible, it will be
>dealt with in the first maintenance release.  What more do you want?
to which Aaron responded
It's bad faith to ship a product with a serious known bug in an 
advertised new feature. For me, that's what it comes down to. The good 
faith options would have been delaying release until it was fixed, 
leaving out that option until it worked correctly, or mentioning in a 
footnote that the feature was incomplete. 
and in response to a post I mand, Aaron wrote (in part):
In my personal opinion, if they determined that they could not fix a 
basic bug in a newly advertised feature and still ship on time, they 
should have left the feature out. Since they had not yet advertised 
the feature, no one would have missed it.
To me, agreement with Aaron hinges on two things.  First, what is 
"serious" or "basic", and second, whether the bug was in fact known 
about in time to remove the affected part of the software before the 
release. 

WRT the latter point, the fundamental issue related to this is one that 
Dr. Patterson and I both alluded to:  lead time.  We don't know when the 
bug was discovered.  While the response of MakeMusic! suggests that they 
knew about it before Aaron's post, we don't know for how long they had 
known about the bug.  I submit that there is little enought value to 
MakeMusic! to intentionally ship a substandard product, that at the time 
this bug was discovered, it was too late to hold back the shipment 
without a substantial cost in time or goodwill.

With respect to the former, IMO,. if the bug only occurs when the tuplet 
begins with a rest, then it fails to rise to my own definition of 
"serious" or "basic".  To me, a serious bug is one which causes the 
computer to hang up, and lose all data, or fail to start at all.  A bug 
which affects only the instance when the tuplet begins with an eighth 
rest merely rises to the level of "irritating", or "annoying", and 
should not inhibit the shipment process.

BTW, what happens if, instead of an eighth note rest, one creates the 
tuplet with two sixteenth note rests at the beginning, and goes back and 
deletes one of the sixteenth notes, and changes the remaining one to an 
eighth?

ns
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Re: [Finale] Re: Tuplet bug in Fin2005 demo

[Dan Carno]

Hi Noel,
The bug does not occur only when a tuplet  begins with a rest, although the 
effect is more extreme when it does.  In a quarter note triplet (no rests), 
for example, if you drag one of the quarters up or down far enough, the 
number and the bracket separate; the farther you drag, the greater the 
separation.  The bug also rears its little ugly head if you make one of the 
notes a chord by double-clicking.  And, the bug is not fooled at all by 
changing the duration of the rest.  I have found no way around this, other 
than to avoid having to edit in the first place.  Since using a QWERTY 
keyboard for entry demands "editing" in order to create chords, if you 
don't use a midi keyboard for entry, you must turn "Enhanced tuplets" off, 
and face dragging numbers vertically to make them look right.

Dan Carno
At 10:48 PM 8/20/2004, you wrote:
With respect to the former, IMO,. if the bug only occurs when the tuplet 
begins with a rest, then it fails to rise to my own definition of 
"serious" or "basic".  To me, a serious bug is one which causes the 
computer to hang up, and lose all data, or fail to start at all.  A bug 
which affects only the instance when the tuplet begins with an eighth rest 
merely rises to the level of "irritating", or "annoying", and should not 
inhibit the shipment process.

BTW, what happens if, instead of an eighth note rest, one creates the 
tuplet with two sixteenth note rests at the beginning, and goes back and 
deletes one of the sixteenth notes, and changes the remaining one to an eighth?
Daniel Carno
Music Engraving Services
Quality work in Sibelius, Finale, and Score
4514 Makyes Road
Syracuse, New York 13215
(315) 492-2987
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

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Re: [Finale] Re: Tuplet bug in Fin2005 demo

[Aaron Sherber]

At 10:48 PM 08/20/2004, Noel Stoutenburg wrote:
>WRT the latter point, the fundamental issue related to this is one that
>Dr. Patterson and I both alluded to:  lead time.  We don't know when the
>bug was discovered.
Yes, this is very true. My assumption is that since I found the bug so 
quickly, at least one of the beta testers probably did as well. But I have 
no proof of that.

>With respect to the former, IMO,. if the bug only occurs when the tuplet
>begins with a rest, then it fails to rise to my own definition of
>"serious" or "basic".  To me, a serious bug is one which causes the
>computer to hang up, and lose all data, or fail to start at all.
Well, I certainly agree that that kind of bug is more serious, but...
> A bug
>which affects only the instance when the tuplet begins with an eighth
>rest merely rises to the level of "irritating", or "annoying", and
>should not inhibit the shipment process.
...I think I was using the words more relatively. The idea of enhanced 
tuplets is to make it unnecessary (or at least far less necessary) to 
manually edit tuplets. IMO, one of the worst current tuplet issues occurs 
when the tuplet begins with a rest: the bracket is flat and in the staff, 
often colliding with notes. Enhanced tuplets solves this positioning 
problem but makes it necessary to manually edit the tuplet anyway, to get 
the number positioning correct. So to me this bug is "basic" relative to 
its feature, since it renders that feature significantly less useful. 
Similarly, the other bug discussed recently about Speedy in Page View is 
basic because it renders *that* feature useless.

>BTW, what happens if, instead of an eighth note rest, one creates the
>tuplet with two sixteenth note rests at the beginning, and goes back and
>deletes one of the sixteenth notes, and changes the remaining one to an
>eighth?
This is a highly impractical sequence in Speedy Entry (i.e., not at all 
speedy) -- and it gives the same result.

I don't want to beat this issue to death, if I haven't already. I agree 
that this is no worse than many other Finale bugs, but I find the 
particular combination of factors associated with it quite galling. Your 
mileage may vary.

Aaron.
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Re: [Finale] Re: Tuplet bug in Fin2005 demo

[Noel Stoutenburg]

In the past couple of hours, since I wrote:
WRT the latter point, the fundamental issue related to this is one 
that Dr. Patterson and I both alluded to:  lead time.  We don't know 
when the bug was discovered.  While the response of MakeMusic! 
suggests that they knew about it before Aaron's post, we don't know 
for how long they had known about the bug.  I submit that there is 
little enought value to MakeMusic! to intentionally ship a substandard 
product, that at the time this bug was discovered, it was too late to 
hold back the shipment without a substantial cost in time or goodwill. 
I have experienced something that bears on this matter, namely that 
MakeMusic! was wrong again this year on their intended shipping date.  
You may remember how last year, the product was announced at the end of 
July, anticipating shipping the middle of August, and only the Windows 
version shipped at the end of August.  This year, the public product 
announcement was on August 16, with shipping anticipated on the 20th or 
so.  This did not happen.  My copy shipped on August 18, EARLIER than I 
was told the estimated ship date would be. 

Thus, when Aaron sent in his report about the bug to support, my copy of 
the software was already in transit.

ns
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