Re: [Finale] Fonts

[Giovanni Andreani]

It happened to me to, in the same circumstances. I recall going through the 
preferences panels and verifying all settings.

Giovanni

> On 31 Aug 2018, at 15:24, Eric Dannewitz  wrote:
> 
> Sounds like you are missing a font.
> 
> Sent from my iSomething
> --
> 
> 
>> On Aug 31, 2018, at 6:17 AM, Lawrence David Eden  wrote:
>> 
>> I recently used Finale 25 to open a file that was created with Finale Mac 
>> 2K7.  
>> Text instructions that I used in the file are now displaying as a series of  
>> boxes with a  "?"   in the middle of each box.
>> 
>> Am I correct in thinking that I have a font issue?
>> 
>> How can I get these expressions to display correctly in Finale 25?
>> 
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> 
>> Larry Eden
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>> finale-unsubscr...@shsu.edu
> 
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Re: [Finale] Fonts

[Robert Patterson]

This is a problem with Adope Type 3 Postscript Fonts. (A font format from
the 1980s.) You may be able to fix the problem by first saving the file in
Fin14.5 or Fin14d. Otherwise you will have to find otf alternatives.

On Fri, Aug 31, 2018 at 8:24 AM, Eric Dannewitz 
wrote:

> Sounds like you are missing a font.
>
> Sent from my iSomething
> --
>
>
> > On Aug 31, 2018, at 6:17 AM, Lawrence David Eden 
> wrote:
> >
> > I recently used Finale 25 to open a file that was created with Finale
> Mac 2K7.
> > Text instructions that I used in the file are now displaying as a series
> of  boxes with a  "?"   in the middle of each box.
> >
> > Am I correct in thinking that I have a font issue?
> >
> > How can I get these expressions to display correctly in Finale 25?
> >
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Larry Eden
> > ___
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> >
> > To unsubscribe from finale send a message to:
> > finale-unsubscr...@shsu.edu
>
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Re: [Finale] Fonts

[Eric Dannewitz]

Sounds like you are missing a font.

Sent from my iSomething
--


> On Aug 31, 2018, at 6:17 AM, Lawrence David Eden  wrote:
> 
> I recently used Finale 25 to open a file that was created with Finale Mac 
> 2K7.  
> Text instructions that I used in the file are now displaying as a series of  
> boxes with a  "?"   in the middle of each box.
> 
> Am I correct in thinking that I have a font issue?
> 
> How can I get these expressions to display correctly in Finale 25?
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Larry Eden
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> https://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
> 
> To unsubscribe from finale send a message to:
> finale-unsubscr...@shsu.edu

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[Finale] Fonts

[Lawrence David Eden]

I recently used Finale 25 to open a file that was created with Finale Mac 2K7.  
Text instructions that I used in the file are now displaying as a series of  
boxes with a  "?"   in the middle of each box.

Am I correct in thinking that I have a font issue?

How can I get these expressions to display correctly in Finale 25?


Thanks,

Larry Eden
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Re: [Finale] Fonts won't show up in selection db in 2010 running Lion (MacOs 10.7)

[Brian Williams]

I finally fixed the problem by clearing my font caches using a freeware
utility called "FontNuke".


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Re: [Finale] Fonts won't show up in selection db in 2010 running Lion (MacOs 10.7)

[Christopher Smith]

Sounds like one of the famous Mac font problems, probably caused by using 
PostScript type AND TrueType fonts enabled at the same time. Possibly you will 
have to clear a font cache (whatever that means, but I ran the fix and it 
worked for me.)

Go here and read the sticky called Font Problems on OSX.

http://forum.makemusic.com/default.aspx?f=6

Christopher


On Sun Aug 19, at SundayAug 19 4:41 PM, Brian Williams wrote:

> Hi List,
> 
> For some reason, the following fonts don't show up in the font selection db
> in Finale 2010 or earlier running in MacOs 10.7.2 (Lion). There are blank
> white spaces in the list where they would normally appear, and older
> documents seem to display them OK, and newer versions of Finale and other
> apps have no problems displaying or selecting them, but the old-style font
> selection db from 2010 or earlier doesn't display them, despite the fact
> that Font Book says they are indeed installed on my computer.
> 
> Some of the affected fonts are:
> 
> All Maestro fonts except for the Maestro Times family
> All Engraver fonts
> All Broadway Copyist fonts
> All Jazz fonts except for JazzCord
> 
> If I try to create a new text block using one of the
> invisibly-named-yet-installed fonts, I just get a generic sans serif font
> instead.
> 
> Has anyone else seen this? I have a bunch of files that I would rather not
> import into Finale 2011 or later because they contain deliberately-optimized
> staves containing entries (used for ossias) and when I try to open and edit
> them in 2011 they just get completely screwed up.
> 
> Any help would be much appreciated!
> 
> -Brian Williams
> 
> 
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Re: [Finale] Fonts won't show up in selection db in 2010 running Lion (MacOs 10.7)

[SN jef chippewa]

these should all be listed in the symbol font document by default, 
but check just in case.
Finale 2010/Component Files/MacSymbolFonts.txt

did you notice this after and update / upgrade?

not clear... this works for you in F2011?

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[Finale] Fonts won't show up in selection db in 2010 running Lion (MacOs 10.7)

[Brian Williams]

Hi List,

For some reason, the following fonts don't show up in the font selection db
in Finale 2010 or earlier running in MacOs 10.7.2 (Lion). There are blank
white spaces in the list where they would normally appear, and older
documents seem to display them OK, and newer versions of Finale and other
apps have no problems displaying or selecting them, but the old-style font
selection db from 2010 or earlier doesn't display them, despite the fact
that Font Book says they are indeed installed on my computer.

Some of the affected fonts are:

All Maestro fonts except for the Maestro Times family
All Engraver fonts
All Broadway Copyist fonts
All Jazz fonts except for JazzCord

If I try to create a new text block using one of the
invisibly-named-yet-installed fonts, I just get a generic sans serif font
instead.

Has anyone else seen this? I have a bunch of files that I would rather not
import into Finale 2011 or later because they contain deliberately-optimized
staves containing entries (used for ossias) and when I try to open and edit
them in 2011 they just get completely screwed up.

Any help would be much appreciated!

-Brian Williams


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Re: [Finale] fonts not appearing correctly after migration

[SN jef chippewa]

fantastic, perfect, thanks!


You need to go into Font Book, and see if there are duplicates.


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Re: [Finale] fonts not appearing correctly after migration

[Eric Dannewitz]

You need to go into Font Book, and see if there are duplicates.

Or you can compare the Library/Fonts and 
/User/YOURUSERNAME/Library/Fonts and delete/move the duplicates.



On 1/30/10 12:58 PM, SN jef chippewa wrote:


after migration to OSX.6 (from 10.4.11) on new macbook pro the finale 
fonts are not appearing properly on screen.  in the dialogue boxes 
everything is correct.  my own custom fonts (open type) are fine, but 
maestro (for ex.) displays the wrong character it would seem.  i 
reinstalled the postscript fonts from the installation discs but 
nothing changed.


is there something i don't know about fonts / finale / snow leopard?

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[Finale] fonts not appearing correctly after migration

[SN jef chippewa]

after migration to OSX.6 (from 10.4.11) on new macbook pro the finale 
fonts are not appearing properly on screen.  in the dialogue boxes 
everything is correct.  my own custom fonts (open type) are fine, but 
maestro (for ex.) displays the wrong character it would seem.  i 
reinstalled the postscript fonts from the installation discs but 
nothing changed.


is there something i don't know about fonts / finale / snow leopard?

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Re: [Finale] Finale Fonts problem

[Bob Morabito]

I installed the Mac Fontpacks from the MM site, and all seems ok now-- 
thanks

Bob
On Nov 16, 2009, at 5:56 AM, Bob Morabito wrote:


Fin 2008a.r1 Mac OS 10.4.10

I havent used Finale in a little while, and I now have what u get  
when there's a  font problem--strange symbols appear instead of  
notes,  etc.


How do I get my fonts back to displaying correctly in Fin?

(The only thing I had done somewhat recently is I sent a copy of a  
font to someone-I haven't had any other font problems elsewhere  
that I could see)


Thanks for any help-
 Bob Morabito
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[Finale] Finale Fonts problem

[Bob Morabito]

Fin 2008a.r1 Mac OS 10.4.10

I havent used Finale in a little while, and I now have what u get  
when there's a  font problem--strange symbols appear instead of  
notes,  etc.


How do I get my fonts back to displaying correctly in Fin?

(The only thing I had done somewhat recently is I sent a copy of a  
font to someone-I haven't had any other font problems elsewhere that  
I could see)


Thanks for any help-
 Bob Morabito
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[Finale] ChordSymbol 2 TrueType Finale fonts are ready

[JClevESM]

Dear Finale Listers:
 
The laborious task of creating TrueType versions of the various ranges of  
our ChordSymbol 2 Unicode fonts specifically for use with Finale is finally  
complete! So the unprecedented chord symbol entry functionality of 
ChordSymbol 2  is now available to Finale users.
 
If interested, please email me privately; I'll reply with a flyer  
containing font samples and an order form. Mention you need the Finale fonts,  
and 
I'll attach those along with the Unicode fonts. The conference discount  
price is $75, a bargain for the eight TrueType fonts, each containing 191  
characters, together enabling entry of any type of chord symbol, from figured  
bass to commercial symbols.
 
A bit of a rant, if I may so indulge: These eight cross-platform fonts  do 
replicate the impressive functionality of ChordSymbol 2 quite nicely.  But 
Finale users who wish to exploit the full entry power of the vast Unicode  
font (over 2200 characters) will be strongly motivated to cross-grade to  
Sibelius until our good friends at MakeMusic step up to Unicode (which I  
understand is no small thing). Nothing compares with the capacity to enter even 
 
the most intricate jazz chord suffixes, or such as three-figure figured bass  
stacks, in one entry action. Chord symbol entry will never be the same--and 
 Finale will lose market share unless it becomes Unicode-compliant quickly.
 
Thanks, and cheers,

Dr. John R. Clevenger, Manager
The Virtual  Conservatory
50 S. Patterson Ave., #203
Santa Barbara, CA  93111
Phone and fax: (805) 964-7988 (for fax, ignore answering  machine)
Email: _jclev...@aol.com_ (mailto:jclev...@aol.com) 
Web site: _www.virtualconservatory.com_ 
(http://www.virtualconservatory.com/) 

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Re: [Finale] Fonts for text-related items in scores

[dhbailey]

Mark D Lew wrote:

David Bailey wrote:


I just read the EULA for Microsoft Office and there is
no section restricting the use of the fonts to just
Office applications. [...]



It says nothing about what can be done with the fonts
when the applications aren't running.  [...]


Thanks for providing the relevant portion of the EULA for
us, David.

This brings us back to the semantic issue I mentioned
with regard to the word "font".

If you print out your resume in Word then hand it out to
someone to read, you may think you're still "using" the
"font", in the layman's sense of the word equivalent to
"typeface".  But in fact, the font is the bit of
programming that draws those characters, not the print on
the page. You were using the font when you were printing,
but now that you're done printing you're not actually
using the font anymore.

In any way that ordinary users use fonts, I'm not sure
it's even possible to use the fonts when the software
isn't running.

What the license does *not* allow is for a programmer to
copy the font data and build it into some new software
he's writing. That's pretty clearly what they're telling
you not to do, and the bit about embedding provides a
clearly delineated exception for files like PDFs that
have to carry the font information with them.

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I agree with Mark about the fact that the font is the data 
file, and as such the license only applies when the software 
is running.


One semantic tidbit is that Microsoft says "when *the* [my 
emphasis] software is running . . ." being fairly specific 
with the use of the word 'the' -- it could simply have said 
"when software is running" which would imply any software at 
all, not a specific set of software.  At the very start of 
the EULA, there is the following text:


"These license terms are an agreement between Microsoft 
Corporation (or based on where you live, one of its 
affiliates) and you.  Please read them.  They apply to the 
software that accompanies these license terms, which 
includes the media on which you received it, if any."


So from the start Microsoft is stating that all the EULA 
pertains only to this specific software (Office 2007 in this 
case) and so any references to "the software" in the clause 
about the fonts would apply only to their use with this 
specific software.


Or not, as the lawyers would argue endlessly for hours on 
end at $200 and up per hour apiece.  :-)



--
David H. Bailey
dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com
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Re: [Finale] Fonts for text-related items in scores

[Aaron Sherber]

On 7/14/2009 3:30 PM, Mark D Lew wrote:

In any way that ordinary users use fonts, I'm not sure it's even possible
to use the fonts when the software isn't running.


Since the EULA comes with MS Office, I think the question is what the 
user is allowed to to when *Office* isn't running, not when there's no 
software running at all. That is, does the EULA allow for the use of 
these fonts in other software programs, like Illustrator or Finale? The 
EULA appears to neither allow nor deny this use.


Aaron.
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Re: [Finale] Fonts for text-related items in scores

[Mark D Lew]

David Bailey wrote:

>I just read the EULA for Microsoft Office and there is no 
>section restricting the use of the fonts to just Office 
>applications. [...]

>It says nothing about what can be done with the fonts when 
>the applications aren't running.  [...]

Thanks for providing the relevant portion of the EULA for us, David.

This brings us back to the semantic issue I mentioned with regard to the word 
"font".

If you print out your resume in Word then hand it out to someone to read, you 
may think you're still "using" the "font", in the layman's sense of the word 
equivalent to "typeface".  But in fact, the font is the bit of programming that 
draws those characters, not the print on the page. You were using the font when 
you were printing, but now that you're done printing you're not actually using 
the font anymore.

In any way that ordinary users use fonts, I'm not sure it's even possible to 
use the fonts when the software isn't running.

What the license does *not* allow is for a programmer to copy the font data and 
build it into some new software he's writing. That's pretty clearly what 
they're telling you not to do, and the bit about embedding provides a clearly 
delineated exception for files like PDFs that have to carry the font 
information with them.

mdl
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Re: [Finale] Fonts for text-related items in scores

[dhbailey]

Mark D Lew wrote:

One small correction to David F's recent posts on this topic:

On Jul 13, 2009, at 12:45 PM, David W. Fenton wrote:


Microsoft has in-house people who create these fonts.


While it is true that Microsoft does have an in-house font division, at 
least some (possibly all) of the six fonts in question were designed by 
outsiders, on commission from Microsoft.


As for the supposed EULA restricting their use, I too am fairly certain 
it does not exist. I was just waiting to gather proper evidence so that 
I could rebut the notion properly rather than just shout about it.  ;-)




I just read the EULA for Microsoft Office and there is no 
section restricting the use of the fonts to just Office 
applications.


What the license says is:

"C. Font Components.  While the software is running, you may 
use its fonts to display and print content.  You may only:
[bulleted list] embed fonts in content as permitted by the 
embedding restrictions in the fonts; and
temporarily download them to a printer or other output 
device to print content."


It says nothing about what can be done with the fonts when 
the applications aren't running.  Which could be interpreted 
as not giving permission to use the fonts when the software 
isn't running, since it stipulates what can be done while 
the software is running.  Or it could interpreted as not 
having any restrictions on the use of the fonts when the 
software isn't running, sort of giving blanket license to do 
anything at all, which I doubt is what Microsoft intended.


That's why the lawyers get the big bucks, arguing about this 
sort of junk in court.




--
David H. Bailey
dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com
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Re: [Finale] Fonts for text-related items in scores

[Mark D Lew]

One small correction to David F's recent posts on this topic:

On Jul 13, 2009, at 12:45 PM, David W. Fenton wrote:


Microsoft has in-house people who create these fonts.


While it is true that Microsoft does have an in-house font division,  
at least some (possibly all) of the six fonts in question were  
designed by outsiders, on commission from Microsoft.


As for the supposed EULA restricting their use, I too am fairly  
certain it does not exist. I was just waiting to gather proper  
evidence so that I could rebut the notion properly rather than just  
shout about it.  ;-)


mdl
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Re: [Finale] Fonts for text-related items in scores

[David W. Fenton]

On 12 Jul 2009 at 20:40, Noel Stoutenburg wrote:

> Mark D Lew wrote:
> 
> > Whether Microsoft allows use of the fonts outside of their software 
> > packages that include them, I don't know, but I do know that MS has 
> > the right to license them however they choose. 
> 
> The fonts are presumably included in the license for certain Microsoft 
> products, including Windows Vista, and Microsoft 2007 and 2008. If you 
> don't have Vista, you can purchase a license to use each font for $35.00 
> US each, or for the entire package, $299.00 US, from the Ascender 
> Corporation ().

They are part of more than just Windows Vista. They are included with 
Internet Explorer 7 and are likely to be found on any Windows XP 
computer.

They are part of Microsoft's set of base fonts for Windows as well as 
applications, and I have seen no evidence anywhere that there are any 
restrictions on the use of the fonts by any applications. Part of the 
reason for MS wanting them distributed far and wide is so that Web 
designers can use them as the font for websites (Verdana and Georgia 
were designed for that very purpose).

In regard to EULAs for fonts:

  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Core_fonts_for_the_web

I can't imagine why anyone would pay for these fonts unless they were 
running an OS for which MS does not distribute them (e.g., Linux, or 
Mac OS without Office 2008 installed).

They really are very, very good fonts, BTW.

-- 
David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com
David Fenton Associates   http://dfenton.com/DFA/

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Re: [Finale] Fonts for text-related items in scores

[David W. Fenton]

On 12 Jul 2009 at 20:33, Noel Stoutenburg wrote:

> If there is a 
> restrictive clause in the license of fonts, the fact that no one is 
> going to enforce the license does not make it right to violate the 
> terms, even if "everybody does it."

Is there such a clause? I don't believe there is. Please demonstrate 
that there is or stop this ludicrous thread on imaginary legal 
restrictions on the use of these fonts. The idea that MS would design 
an distribute a set of standard fonts intended to provide a set of 
fonts that everyone will have available and then license them in a 
way that would restrict there use is simply absurd.w

-- 
David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com
David Fenton Associates   http://dfenton.com/DFA/

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Re: [Finale] Fonts for text-related items in scores

[David W. Fenton]

On 13 Jul 2009 at 6:54, dhbailey wrote:

> Noel Stoutenburg wrote:
> > Mark D Lew wrote:
> > 
> >> Whether Microsoft allows use of the fonts outside of their software 
> >> packages that include them, I don't know, but I do know that MS has 
> >> the right to license them however they choose. 
> > 
> > The fonts are presumably included in the license for certain Microsoft 
> > products, including Windows Vista, and Microsoft 2007 and 2008. If you 
> > don't have Vista, you can purchase a license to use each font for $35.00 
> > US each, or for the entire package, $299.00 US, from the Ascender 
> > Corporation ().
> 
> That agreement between Microsoft and Ascender may be why the 
> license with Microsoft Office is so restrictive.

What in the HELL are you talking about? There *is* no restrictive 
license -- it is imaginary. Noel raised the caveat that there *might* 
be a restriction in the license (without showing that there is), and 
you seem to take this as gospel, that the restriction exists.

THERE IS NO SUCH RESTRICTION ON USE.

You've really gone off the deep end here, David. You are railing 
against Microsoft for an entirely imaginary EULA for this font set.

Microsoft wants it distributed far and wide, which is why I'll bet 
every single Finale list subscriber with a Windows PC already has 
these fonts installed, even if they don't have Office 2007.

-- 
David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com
David Fenton Associates   http://dfenton.com/DFA/

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Re: [Finale] Fonts for text-related items in scores

[David W. Fenton]

On 12 Jul 2009 at 15:04, John Howell wrote:

> This past school year I started getting text assignments
> (not music notation) turned in using Cambria, which is apparently the
> default font in the most recent MSWord for Windows, and I find it VERY
> difficult to read on screen.  The default size is too small for
> comfortable reading

The new family of "C" fonts from Microsoft have been highly optimized 
for ClearType displays. That is the font rendering technology that 
Microsoft introduced in Windows XP that is specifically designed to 
make fonts look better on LCD screens. One of the aspects of the 
design of these new fonts is that they are "hinted" so that they 
display better WYSIWYG onscreen so that you can tell what you're 
going to get on the printout better.

I, too, have noticed that some of these fonts are awfully small at 
the same point size compared to the normal fonts, and don't know 
what's up with that. 

An article about the new fonts, ClearType and the next version of 
Windows:

http://tinyurl.com/kjdnxf
(http://blogs.msdn.com/e7/archive/2009/06/23/engineering-changes-to-
cleartype-in-windows-7.aspx)

-- 
David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com
David Fenton Associates   http://dfenton.com/DFA/

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Re: [Finale] Fonts for text-related items in scores

[David W. Fenton]

On 12 Jul 2009 at 19:51, dhbailey wrote:

> But I doubt that they ever expect to enforce that at all -- 
> it's more likely something they were forced to include in 
> their licensing from whomever they licensed the fonts in the 
> first place.  Microsoft probably doesn't have the right to 
> license you to use those fonts with anything other than the 
> applications for which they licensed the fonts in the first 
> place and that language is in the license to placate the 
> originators of the fonts.

This imaginary licensing restriction DOES NOT EXIST.

Microsoft has in-house people who create these fonts.

If they are installed on your machine (and you didn't copy them from 
another machine), you have the legal right to use them with whatever 
applications are installed on your computer. That's the purpose of 
Microsoft providing these fonts -- so that everyone has available the 
same set of standard fonts. This is the second such font set that 
Microsoft has developed (the first included Tahoma, Verdana, Georgia, 
Trebuchet MS, and the much-maligned Comic Sans MS), and they are 
intended for wide use.

Nobody has provided a EULA that says their use is restricted in in 
any way, and they wouldn't serve the purpose they were intended for 
by Microsoft if they were restricted in that way.

-- 
David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com
David Fenton Associates   http://dfenton.com/DFA/

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Re: [Finale] Fonts for text-related items in scores

[David W. Fenton]

On 12 Jul 2009 at 14:36, Noel Stoutenburg wrote:

> Not that I mean to be a killjoy here, but part of what Mark D Lew wrote:
> 
> > More promising is Microsoft's new suite of ClearType fonts that have 
> > been included with Office for the past couple years. These are the 
> > ones that all start with C (Calibri, Cambria, Candara, Consolas, 
> > Constantia, Corbel).
> 
> I'd note that there might be licensing issues here (though I don't know 
> the details of either the ownership of the typefaces in question, nor 
> the specifics of the license of Microsoft office. The last time I looked 
> at the licensing details, fonts bundled with a particular application 
> (like Microsoft Office), are licensed for use with the application with 
> which they are bundled. If you use a font bundled with a word processor 
> or DTP program with Finale, this may be a use outside the scope of your 
> license.

The fonts are bundled with Windows and with Internet Explorer. In 
short, these are part of the standard Microsoft font set and just 
about any Windows user who has run Windows Update in the last couple 
of years is going to have these fonts.

They are meant for broad use in all applications. The idea that it 
could possibly violate the EULA to use them is patently absurd.

-- 
David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com
David Fenton Associates   http://dfenton.com/DFA/

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Re: [Finale] Fonts for text-related items in scores

[Aaron Sherber]

On 7/13/2009 2:34 PM, Mark D Lew wrote:

Thanks for the correction.  But is it not true that to be optimized
for ClearType display they must have data in them that the ClearType
renderer reads? Did OpenType fonts have this data all along, or is it
new?


My understanding is that there is no "extra" data used by the ClearType 
rendering engine. ClearType is essentially a method of font smoothing 
which uses the existing curves and hints in the font file to make the 
screen display look better. The difference between ClearType and earlier 
smoothing technologies is that it makes explicit use of the fact that a 
pixel on an LCD monitor is actually 3 separate RGB pixels crammed in 
next to each other. So it is able to fool our eyes by smoothing at a 
subpixel level. There's a good discussion of this here: 



The proof of this is that ClearType makes all TrueType fonts look 
better, not just those optimized for the technology. The only kind of 
font ClearType can't work with is the really old bitmapped fonts; a 
bitmapped font contains specific recipes to place pixels at specific 
font sizes, whereas TrueType et al. define curves to be filled in by 
pixels. (I'm simplifying a little.)


For example, the default Windows font for menus and so forth used to be 
a bitmapped font called MS Sans Serif. I think as early as Windows 2000 
they started also shipping a font caleld Microsoft Sans Serif, which was 
just a TrueType version of the earlier font. Newer versions of Windows 
use Tahoma or Segoe, both TrueType fonts. Anyway, you may have had the 
experience of using an older application alongside newer ones, and the 
text in the dialog boxes of the older app looks *awful*. This is because 
the older app is probably hardcoded to use MS Sans Serif, which can't be 
improved by ClearType, and it looks particularly bad next to the smooth 
goodness in other apps.


As to "optimized for ClearType", my understanding is that those 
particular fonts were designed with an understanding of how the 
ClearType display algorithms would work on them, and so the curves were 
plotted in such a way that they would look particularly good after they 
were run through ClearType.


Aaron.
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Re: [Finale] Fonts for text-related items in scores

[Aaron Sherber]

On 7/13/2009 2:10 PM, Mark D Lew wrote:

ClearType is a specific method of type definition*, developed and
owned by Microsoft, introduced with Vista.


Also, ClearType was introduced with XP, though I think it may have been 
off by default. It can be turned on in the Display control panel.


Aaron.
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Re: [Finale] Fonts for text-related items in scores

[Mark D Lew]

On Jul 13, 2009, at 11:25 AM, Aaron Sherber wrote:

A minor correction (and I haven't been following this whole  
discussion): ClearType is not a font programming language or a  
method of type definition. It is a technology for displaying fonts  
on digital displays, regardless of whether those fonts are TrueType  
or OpenType (or PS I guess, though I haven't used those in a long  
time). There are no ClearType font files.


The so-called "ClearType" fonts (Calibri et al.) are ordinary  
OpenType fonts which were designed to be optimized for ClearType  
display. In fact, if you're using them on any display device which  
does not support ClearType, or which does not have ClearType  
enabled (like any CRT monitor), they tend to look worse than other  
fonts. (They all print very nicely.)


Thanks for the correction.  But is it not true that to be optimized  
for ClearType display they must have data in them that the ClearType  
renderer reads? Did OpenType fonts have this data all along, or is it  
new?


Maybe this is partly semantics. I see that I was mistaken about  
contrasting ClearType with OpenType, but it still seems like there is  
a protocol added at some level, even if not at the level I thought it  
was.


Also, how does this relate to Apple's Quartz? I assumed Quartz was a  
competing standard. Do they use the same definition, or different.


mdl
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Re: [Finale] Fonts for text-related items in scores

[Aaron Sherber]

On 7/13/2009 2:10 PM, Mark D Lew wrote:

ClearType is a specific method of type definition*, developed and
owned by Microsoft, introduced with Vista. The purpose of ClearType
was to enhance screen readability.

...

typeface in two different languages, which may have behaved
differently in different software. ClearType is a new such language.


A minor correction (and I haven't been following this whole discussion): 
ClearType is not a font programming language or a method of type 
definition. It is a technology for displaying fonts on digital displays, 
regardless of whether those fonts are TrueType or OpenType (or PS I 
guess, though I haven't used those in a long time). There are no 
ClearType font files.


The so-called "ClearType" fonts (Calibri et al.) are ordinary OpenType 
fonts which were designed to be optimized for ClearType display. In 
fact, if you're using them on any display device which does not support 
ClearType, or which does not have ClearType enabled (like any CRT 
monitor), they tend to look worse than other fonts. (They all print very 
nicely.)


Aaron.
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Re: [Finale] Fonts for text-related items in scores

[Mark D Lew]

On Jul 13, 2009, at 3:54 AM, dhbailey wrote:

That agreement between Microsoft and Ascender may be why the  
license with Microsoft Office is so restrictive.


Wait, wait.  So far we have not established that the license *is*  
restrictive.  Someone speculated that it might be, but no one has  
actually checked yet.  (I can't, because I don't have the fonts.)


I did shoot an email to my friend, who is (literally) in the business  
of knowing these things.  He tells me: "Short version: You can use  
the fonts with any apps on Windows." I'm still waiting on the long  
answer.


Ascender is not a subsidiary of Microsoft, though one of the partners  
has close ties with Microsoft and has worked closely with them for  
many years.  Ascender was licensed by Microsoft to develop and  
distribute a ClearType engine for non-Vista operating systems.  
ClearType is a specific method of type definition*, developed and  
owned by Microsoft, introduced with Vista. The purpose of ClearType  
was to enhance screen readability. (You can read all the details on  
Wikipedia.) By default, the fonts fall back on older definitions, so  
they still work on other systems, but they don't take advantage of  
the special screen-rendering technology without ClearType software.


The six fonts I mentioned were commissioned by Microsoft to be  
introduced along with ClearType. Ascender is licensed to distribute  
those fonts, along with its rendering engines. Other type  
distributors also have licenses to distribute some or all of the fonts.


mdl

* A font is a collection of little programs, one for each character,  
which instructs the computer on how to draw that character.  These  
programs must have a programming language, and there have been  
several standard ones over the years -- PostScript, TrueType,  
OpenType, etc. Many of you may remember the days of having different  
versions of the same font**; that was because you had the same  
typeface in two different languages, which may have behaved  
differently in different software. ClearType is a new such language.


Like any language, standard, or protocol, a method of font definition  
is only going to survive if (1) operating systems and apps have the  
software to read it and (2) type designers choose to write it.  With  
the muscle of Microsoft behind it, there is little doubt that  
ClearType is here to stay.


** Technically, they were not the same font. They were different  
fonts of the same typeface. People commonly use the word "font" as if  
it were synonymous with typeface. Technically, the typeface is the  
design itself, and the font is the program that renders it. Type  
geeks are careful to maintain the distinction.


It derives from a similar pre-computer distinction in which the  
typeface was the design and the font was the collection of lead bits  
that would print it. In the old days, each font was a specific size  
as well. That changed with computers, when fonts became scalable.  
(That actually preceded digital fonts by a decade or two, during  
which fonts were filmstrip negatives which could be sized by lenses  
in the machine that were programmed to move to an fro.)

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Re: [Finale] Fonts for text-related items in scores

[dhbailey]

Noel Stoutenburg wrote:

Mark D Lew wrote:

Whether Microsoft allows use of the fonts outside of their software 
packages that include them, I don't know, but I do know that MS has 
the right to license them however they choose. 


The fonts are presumably included in the license for certain Microsoft 
products, including Windows Vista, and Microsoft 2007 and 2008. If you 
don't have Vista, you can purchase a license to use each font for $35.00 
US each, or for the entire package, $299.00 US, from the Ascender 
Corporation ().




That agreement between Microsoft and Ascender may be why the 
license with Microsoft Office is so restrictive.


Regarding the "honesty" issue -- one is forced to agree to 
the terms without being able to negotiate those terms, and 
if one is forced by modern business practices to use 
Microsoft Office for compatibility reasons with clients, 
then one is forced to accept the licensing terms whether one 
wants to or not.  I'm not so sure it's an "honesty" thing if 
one chooses to use the fonts one is forced to accept in 
whatever way one sees fit.


Who could reasonably expect an end user, when looking at a 
long line of fonts in Finale or any other non-Office 
application, to know which fonts out of the potentially 
thousands, were licensed only to be used for Office 
applications?


If that's what Microsoft expects of its users, then it had 
better come up with a means by which those fonts licensed to 
be used only in Office applications appear *only* in the 
font list of the applications they're licensed to be used 
with and to be omitted from the font lists in all other 
applications.


--
David H. Bailey
dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com
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Re: [Finale] Fonts for text-related items in scores

[dhbailey]

Noel Stoutenburg wrote:

Mark D Lew wrote:

Whether Microsoft allows use of the fonts outside of their software 
packages that include them, I don't know, but I do know that MS has 
the right to license them however they choose. 


The fonts are presumably included in the license for certain Microsoft 
products, including Windows Vista, and Microsoft 2007 and 2008. If you 
don't have Vista, you can purchase a license to use each font for $35.00 
US each, or for the entire package, $299.00 US, from the Ascender 
Corporation ().




Is that a subsidiary of Microsoft?

--
David H. Bailey
dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com
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Re: [Finale] Fonts for text-related items in scores

[Noel Stoutenburg]

Mark D Lew wrote:

Whether Microsoft allows use of the fonts outside of their software 
packages that include them, I don't know, but I do know that MS has 
the right to license them however they choose. 


The fonts are presumably included in the license for certain Microsoft 
products, including Windows Vista, and Microsoft 2007 and 2008. If you 
don't have Vista, you can purchase a license to use each font for $35.00 
US each, or for the entire package, $299.00 US, from the Ascender 
Corporation ().


ns
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Re: [Finale] Fonts for text-related items in scores

[Mark D Lew]

On Jul 12, 2009, at 4:51 PM, dhbailey wrote:

But I doubt that they ever expect to enforce that at all -- it's  
more likely something they were forced to include in their  
licensing from whomever they licensed the fonts in the first  
place.  Microsoft probably doesn't have the right to license you to  
use those fonts with anything other than the applications for which  
they licensed the fonts in the first place and that language is in  
the license to placate the originators of the fonts.



I don't know about the other copyright questions, but I do know that  
these fonts belong to Microsoft. They are not licensed from anyone  
else, and there are no other "originators" of the fonts. There are  
individual designers, yes -- and top names in the field, too -- but  
they were commissioned directly by Microsoft.  Where the fonts are  
sold by other foundries (eg, Monotype) it's because Microsoft chose  
to use them for further distribution.


Whether Microsoft allows use of the fonts outside of their software  
packages that include them, I don't know, but I do know that MS has  
the right to license them however they choose.


mdl
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Re: [Finale] Fonts for text-related items in scores

[Noel Stoutenburg]

Friends,

When Darcy James Argue writes, asking:
How is that *remotely* enforceable? 
I would be right at the head of the line of those who would concede that 
it's not.


But enforceability is not the same thing as honesty. If there is a 
restrictive clause in the license of fonts, the fact that no one is 
going to enforce the license does not make it right to violate the 
terms, even if "everybody does it."


ns
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Re: [Finale] Fonts for text-related items in scores

[dhbailey]

Darcy James Argue wrote:

How is that *remotely* enforceable?



It's not, but like anything these days, the lawsuits are won 
by those with the deepest pockets not those with justice nor 
the law on their side necessarily.  And there ain't nobody 
with deeper pockets than Micro$oft.


But I doubt that they ever expect to enforce that at all -- 
it's more likely something they were forced to include in 
their licensing from whomever they licensed the fonts in the 
first place.  Microsoft probably doesn't have the right to 
license you to use those fonts with anything other than the 
applications for which they licensed the fonts in the first 
place and that language is in the license to placate the 
originators of the fonts.


--
David H. Bailey
dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com
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Re: [Finale] Fonts for text-related items in scores

[Darcy James Argue]

How is that *remotely* enforceable?

Cheers,

- Darcy
-
djar...@earthlink.net
Brooklyn, NY



On 12 Jul 2009, at 3:36 PM, Noel Stoutenburg wrote:


Friends,

Not that I mean to be a killjoy here, but part of what Mark D Lew  
wrote:


More promising is Microsoft's new suite of ClearType fonts that  
have been included with Office for the past couple years. These are  
the ones that all start with C (Calibri, Cambria, Candara,  
Consolas, Constantia, Corbel).


I'd note that there might be licensing issues here (though I don't  
know the details of either the ownership of the typefaces in  
question, nor the specifics of the license of Microsoft office. The  
last time I looked at the licensing details, fonts bundled with a  
particular application (like Microsoft Office), are licensed for use  
with the application with which they are bundled. If you use a font  
bundled with a word processor or DTP program with Finale, this may  
be a use outside the scope of your license.


ns

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Re: [Finale] Fonts for text-related items in scores

[Noel Stoutenburg]

Friends,

Not that I mean to be a killjoy here, but part of what Mark D Lew wrote:

More promising is Microsoft's new suite of ClearType fonts that have 
been included with Office for the past couple years. These are the 
ones that all start with C (Calibri, Cambria, Candara, Consolas, 
Constantia, Corbel).


I'd note that there might be licensing issues here (though I don't know 
the details of either the ownership of the typefaces in question, nor 
the specifics of the license of Microsoft office. The last time I looked 
at the licensing details, fonts bundled with a particular application 
(like Microsoft Office), are licensed for use with the application with 
which they are bundled. If you use a font bundled with a word processor 
or DTP program with Finale, this may be a use outside the scope of your 
license.


ns

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Re: [Finale] Fonts for text-related items in scores

[John Howell]

At 2:13 PM +0200 7/12/09, Daniel Wolf wrote:

Mark D. Lew wrote:

"More promising is Microsoft's new suite of ClearType fonts that have
been included with Office for the past couple years. These are the
ones that all start with C (Calibri, Cambria, Candara, Consolas,
Constantia, Corbel).  I'm on Mac at home, and our computers at work
aren't that modern, so I haven't had a chance to experiment with any
of them and I'm not even sure how well they work in print.  But
they're very fine fonts with excellent readability, so maybe worth a
try.  If anyone has tried any of these for lyrics, I'd be curious to
know what you think."


Not for lyrics, since I'm also on Mac.  But please allow me to cast a 
dissenting vote.  This past school year I started getting text 
assignments (not music notation) turned in using Cambria, which is 
apparently the default font in the most recent MSWord for Windows, 
and I find it VERY difficult to read on screen.  The default size is 
too small for comfortable reading (and for some reason I have to 
increase the zoom to 150% to read ANY text, probably due to some 
setting on my computer that I don't understand as well as to aging 
eyes).  And in some cases it is in a bold version that is really ugly 
and even more difficult to read.  When I have to read and grade 
student papers, I MUCH prefer good old Times, both on screen and 
printed out, whatever its faults may be!  And for readability on 
Title pages and pinup posters, I always change Times to Palatino, 
which is much more graceful and has a gorgeous italic version.  I 
don't have Cambria, and I really don't want it and wouldn't use it!


John

P.S.  I lied!  I just checked, and I DO have several forms of 
Cambria, but I still wouldn't use it.



--
John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music
Virginia Tech Department of Music
College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences
Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240
Vox (540) 231-8411  Fax (540) 231-5034
(mailto:john.how...@vt.edu)
http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html

"We never play anything the same way once."  Shelly Manne's definition
of jazz musicians.
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[Finale] Fonts for text-related items in scores

[Daniel Wolf]

Mark D. Lew wrote:

"More promising is Microsoft's new suite of ClearType fonts that have
been included with Office for the past couple years. These are the
ones that all start with C (Calibri, Cambria, Candara, Consolas,
Constantia, Corbel).  I'm on Mac at home, and our computers at work
aren't that modern, so I haven't had a chance to experiment with any
of them and I'm not even sure how well they work in print.  But
they're very fine fonts with excellent readability, so maybe worth a
try.  If anyone has tried any of these for lyrics, I'd be curious to
know what you think."


I can second this recommendation; these fonts work well in both screen and  
print and as italic or bold characters.  (New Times Roman bolds, as found  
in many default Finale files as titles, don't look good; "bold" does not  
automatically turn a font into a titling font).   Our default fonts at  
Material Press are now Candara (sans-serif) and Constantia (serif), but  
individual composers can choose their own.


In my own scores, I use the Candara/Constantia pair, with the serif font  
used for all instructions within the staves and for lyrics, with  
expression marks in italic, and reserve the sans-serif for text outside of  
the staves proper, like staff and system names.  I also use a separate  
font exclusively for titles.  But this is a contemporary style exclusive  
to my own scores; if I were to use a more classical approach, I would  
probably use a single serif font exclusively.



--
Dr. Daniel Wolf
Composer
Frankfurt
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Re: [Finale] Fonts for text-related items in scores

[Dick Hauser]

On Jul 11, 2009, at 1:40 AM, Mark D Lew wrote:


At 10:56 AM +0200 7/9/09, Jonathan Smith wrote:

Just out of interest, I did a survey a long time ago with singers -  
to see which font they preferred to read for lyrics. The vast  
majority elected a sans serif font, one with a more 'hand written'  
look to it than a classic 'printers' font.


It's been a long time since I've posted here, but this is a pet  
topic of mine.


I really appreciate your taking the time, Mark.  That email is one for  
my Finale Archive.


Dick H
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Re: [Finale] Fonts for text-related items in scores

[Antonio Di Martino]

On Fri, 10 Jul 2009 19:31:37 -0500
Noel Stoutenburg  wrote:

> bassm...@katamail.com wrote:
> 
> > By "larger appearance" I mean that there's more room and looser spacing in
> > sans serifs compared to serifs - just compare the relative size of Times
> > 10 and Helvetica 10.
> 
> The fact that theres "more room and looser spacing" in Helvetica than in 
> Times is part of the characteristic of those particular fonts, and it 
> does not automatically follow that the amount of size and density of all 
> sans serif fonts have more room and looser spacing than all serif fonts. 

That's right. I was thinking "standard fonts" without even noticing.
The minor role of serifs in shorter stretches of text still stands,
though.

Antonio

-- 
Antonio Di Martino, 

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Re: [Finale] Fonts for text-related items in scores

[Mark D Lew]

At 10:56 AM +0200 7/9/09, Jonathan Smith wrote:

Just out of interest, I did a survey a long time ago with singers -  
to see which font they preferred to read for lyrics. The vast  
majority elected a sans serif font, one with a more 'hand written'  
look to it than a classic 'printers' font.


It's been a long time since I've posted here, but this is a pet topic  
of mine.


I would point out first that which typeface singers say they prefer  
is not the same as which they find more readable.  Even if you asked  
them which they find more readable, it still wouldn't tell you what  
really is most readable for them as well as a proper study that tests  
for comprehension.


It is true, as John H noted, that serif faces have been found to be  
more readable than sans-serif faces on the whole, even when  
controlling for other factors, but there are way too many exceptions  
to generalize from that. Other factors influence readability more  
strongly, notably x-height and just size generally.


I have a brother and a good friend who are both top-level type  
professionals, and I'm a bit of a type-geek myself, so I've had a lot  
of discussions with them about readability.  The one thing that both  
of them have impressed upon me is that you can't evaluate readability  
in a vacuum. It doesn't take you very far to just say one typeface is  
more readable than another. You have to ask all the relevant  
questions of context: Is it short phrases or long blocks of text? How  
dense is the text?  Will the readers eyes stay on the text or are  
they reading peripherally or intermittently? Is the reader's  
attention focused on the text, or are they reading while doing  
something else? Is the type to be read up close or at a distance? How  
good is the lighting?


A lot of these questions are directly relevant to lyrics, and the  
answers will vary depending on the music.  Will the singers be  
reading from the page in performance, or are they reading it in  
rehearsal for memorized performance?  If reading in performance, will  
they have rehearsed enough to be be familiar, or will they be  
performing with little or no practice? Will the singers be expected  
to shift their eyes back and forth between the music and the  
conductor, or will they be able to stick with the music? Do other  
constrictions of the music require giving the singers music with tiny  
print, or will they get music with lots of room to print the lyrics  
large? How good will the light be in performance?


Type readability in music is a special context of its own and it  
hasn't really been studied in depth. This is essentially what my  
brother told me when I posed the question to him directly, many years  
ago. A lot can be deduced from analogous studies, but if it's just a  
question of "what typeface is best for chorus music?" you can't give  
a simple answer.


Most typefaces were designed with certain contexts in mind, whether  
it's book, newspaper, or magazine texts; signage; advertising  
display; etc. There are also typefaces that work better small vs  
large, in print vs on-screen, etc.  If you take a typeface that  
serves well in one context and move it to another, you may lose value.


Both Times and Helvetica suffer regularly from this, and not just in  
music. Partly by historical accident, they have become everyone's  
default font and people routinely use them in non-optimal context  
just because they don't give it much thought. Helvetica (as anyone  
who saw the documentary knows) works very well for signage, logos,  
and short or medium-short burst of texts, but it's very poor for  
large blocks of text and it loses a lot of readability when reduced  
to small sizes.  Times, as the name suggests, was intended for  
newspapers and also works well for books. Times is most effective  
when there's room to spread it out properly, but it's not very  
efficient in a situation where you have a fixed amount of text that  
needs to fit in a fixed amount of space. That will require either  
crowding it or making the type smaller, neither of which Times takes  
well to.


Both Times and Helvetica further suffer from the fact that the  
universally used fonts are simply low quality. In the early days of  
desktop publishing a few fonts were given away freely, including  
Times and Helvetica clones, but the good cuts of these fonts were  
kept for sale while the free one is a junky version with inferior  
quality on details including spacing. A big part of the reason both  
have a reputation as crappy typefaces is not because the typeface  
itself is flawed but simply because the universally used versions  
really are crappy.  Any halfway decent publisher is going to spring  
for the couple hundred bucks to get a proper Times and Helvetica font  
in their collection, but your ordinary business person (including  
pretty much any engraver on this list) is just going to use the one  
that comes for free with their operating system. 

Re: [Finale] Fonts for text-related items in scores

[Noel Stoutenburg]

bassm...@katamail.com wrote:


By "larger appearance" I mean that there's more room and looser spacing in
sans serifs compared to serifs - just compare the relative size of Times
10 and Helvetica 10.


The fact that theres "more room and looser spacing" in Helvetica than in 
Times is part of the characteristic of those particular fonts, and it 
does not automatically follow that the amount of size and density of all 
sans serif fonts have more room and looser spacing than all serif fonts. 
How closely the individucal characters and words are spaced, and how 
closely the lines of type are spaced are characteristics which could be 
routinely varied by typosetters in the days of hand set type, and I 
suspect can be routinely varied in high-end typesetting programs.


ns
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Re: [Finale] Fonts for text-related items in scores

[John Howell]

At 8:58 PM +0200 7/10/09, Jonathan Smith wrote:


These were pro singers from light classical and music theatre 
backgrounds aged around 20 to mid 30s. They had become used to 
reading from hand copied parts especially for shows and last minute 
prep. sessions. They preferred fonts that had a natural look rather 
than a clinical and too aligned look - more of the human element 
rather than how the computer software thought they should look. A 
lot of musicians think the same, hence the many hand written fonts 
that have appeared in Finale and Sibelius and other notation 
software.


That does explain it.  I've seen a LOT of those (very BADLY) 
hand-copied Broadway scripts and vocal books, as well as the 
barely-readable orchestra books, and I certainly wouldn't want to put 
them in front of classically-trained singers--or anyone else for that 
matter!


You're right that many (most?) jazz instrumentalists seem to prefer 
the phony "hand"-written jazz fonts, although I fail to see why.  But 
it's what they're used to, which is reason enough.  I do wonder, 
though, whether that's going to fade away with younger generations 
raised on publication-quality notation from computer note-setting. 
The top calls for expensive recording sessions, including almost all 
movie sessions, can read anything put in front of them, of course 
(which is one reason they're hired again and again), and correct any 
copyist's mistakes on the first readthrough.  I've sung on some of 
those sessions, and the musicians are awesome!




I must admit, a good hand copied part still takes some beating!


But the key word is "good"!  I used to get compliments on my 
manuscript; of course I would have appreciated compliments on my 
arrangements even more!!


John


--
John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music
Virginia Tech Department of Music
College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences
Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240
Vox (540) 231-8411  Fax (540) 231-5034
(mailto:john.how...@vt.edu)
http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html

"We never play anything the same way once."  Shelly Manne's definition
of jazz musicians.
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Re: [Finale] Fonts for text-related items in scores

[Jonathan Smith]

Rule of thumb for the piece title or main title is to make the  
largest letters the same size as the staff height.


Interesting.  I generally like the title quite a bit larger.  Where  
does this suggestion come from?  (Your other suggestions make very  
good sense, by the way.)


This is suggested by Ted Ross in his book on music engraving.



Just out of interest, I did a survey a long time ago with singers  
- to see which font they preferred to read for lyrics. The vast  
majority elected a sans serif font, one with a more 'hand written'  
look to it than a classic 'printers' font.


Even more interesting, especially in the face of (presumably) much  
earlier research that found a serif font more readable.  That's why  
"Times" and almost all other newspaper fonts are serif fonts.  But  
"hand written"?  I wrote vocal charts for many years in 2B pencil  
or ink by hand, and as a singer *I* would certainly prefer to see a  
printer's font!  I'm curious:  what age group and experience type  
did your singers fit into?


These were pro singers from light classical and music theatre  
backgrounds aged around 20 to mid 30s. They had become used to  
reading from hand copied parts especially for shows and last minute  
prep. sessions. They preferred fonts that had a natural look rather  
than a clinical and too aligned look - more of the human element  
rather than how the computer software thought they should look. A lot  
of musicians think the same, hence the many hand written fonts that  
have appeared in Finale and Sibelius and other notation software.


I must admit, a good hand copied part still takes some beating!

Jonathan
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Re: [Finale] Fonts for text-related items in scores

[bassm...@katamail.com]

On Thu, 9 Jul 2009 13:34:00 -0400
John Howell  wrote:

> At 10:56 AM +0200 7/9/09, Jonathan Smith wrote:

> >Just out of interest, I did a survey a long time ago with singers - 
> >to see which font they preferred to read for lyrics. The vast 
> >majority elected a sans serif font, one with a more 'hand written' 
> >look to it than a classic 'printers' font.
> 
> Even more interesting, especially in the face of (presumably) much 
> earlier research that found a serif font more readable.  That's why 
> "Times" and almost all other newspaper fonts are serif fonts. 

Serif fonts are deemed to be more readable in the case of text blocks
with long lines, where the serifs are supposed to "guide" the eyes along.
For shorter stretches, such as in-score lyrics (syllable by syllable) or
end-of-page lyrics (short lines), this is inconsequential, and the
larger appearance of sans serif fonts might even be a help.

By "larger appearance" I mean that there's more room and looser spacing in
sans serifs compared to serifs - just compare the relative size of Times
10 and Helvetica 10.

> But 
> "hand written"?  I wrote vocal charts for many years in 2B pencil or 
> ink by hand, and as a singer *I* would certainly prefer to see a 
> printer's font!  I'm curious:  what age group and experience type did 
> your singers fit into?

A preference for hand written lettering sounds suspicious indeed.

-- 
bassm...@katamail.com

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Re: [Finale] Fonts for text-related items in scores

[Noel Stoutenburg]

Jonathan Smith wrote:

Just out of interest, I did a survey a long time ago with singers - to 
see which font they preferred to read for lyrics. The vast majority 
elected a sans serif font, one with a more 'hand written' look to it 
than a classic 'printers' font.


When I was in college, for part of my obligatory Social Sciences 
requirements, the professor had done graduate level work in the 
psychological area of perception and related that the results of 
preference for fonts (between serif style and sans serif) were confusing 
to the researchers until the typeface used in the early educational 
materials of the test subjects was controlled for. When this was done, 
the conclusion was that people tend to prefer the dominant style of 
typeface to which they were first exposed. Those whose early educational 
materials were more comprised of serif style tended to prefer serif; 
those whose early educational materials were in non-serif styles tended 
to prefer those.


ns
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Re: [Finale] Fonts for text-related items in scores

[John Howell]

At 10:56 AM +0200 7/9/09, Jonathan Smith wrote:


Rule of thumb for the piece title or main title is to make the 
largest letters the same size as the staff height.


Interesting.  I generally like the title quite a bit larger.  Where 
does this suggestion come from?  (Your other suggestions make very 
good sense, by the way.)


Just out of interest, I did a survey a long time ago with singers - 
to see which font they preferred to read for lyrics. The vast 
majority elected a sans serif font, one with a more 'hand written' 
look to it than a classic 'printers' font.


Even more interesting, especially in the face of (presumably) much 
earlier research that found a serif font more readable.  That's why 
"Times" and almost all other newspaper fonts are serif fonts.  But 
"hand written"?  I wrote vocal charts for many years in 2B pencil or 
ink by hand, and as a singer *I* would certainly prefer to see a 
printer's font!  I'm curious:  what age group and experience type did 
your singers fit into?


John


--
John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music
Virginia Tech Department of Music
College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences
Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240
Vox (540) 231-8411  Fax (540) 231-5034
(mailto:john.how...@vt.edu)
http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html

"We never play anything the same way once."  Shelly Manne's definition
of jazz musicians.
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[Finale] Fonts for text-related items in scores

[Jonathan Smith]

Technical, instructions etc, : Regular type, usually above staff

Style, interpretation etc, : Italic, usually below staff

Titles and Text blocks are best left in the same font suit, maybe in  
different sizes or strengths.


Rule of thumb for the piece title or main title is to make the  
largest letters the same size as the staff height.


Keep to 2 fonts maximium, much better on the eye - and keep it  
regular (e.g. con sord. and senza sord. in the same font and size,  
same placing)


Try to use fonts suits that contain the italic and bold versions as  
separate font sets and not just an adjustment from the font style  
menu style - they'll look much better!


Just out of interest, I did a survey a long time ago with singers -  
to see which font they preferred to read for lyrics. The vast  
majority elected a sans serif font, one with a more 'hand written'  
look to it than a classic 'printers' font.


Jonathan

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Re: [Finale] Fonts for text-related items in scores

[Darcy James Argue]

My own preference is:

1) Anything that affects tempo (including Accel. and Rit.) above the  
staff in 14 pt. bold type.


2) All other techniques above the staff in in 12 pt. regular type,  
except...


3) Expressions that affect dynamics: "sub. p", "sempre f", "cresc."  
"dim." etc. -- these go below the staff in 12 pt. italic type.


Cheers,

- Darcy
-
djar...@earthlink.net
Brooklyn, NY



On 7 Jul 2009, at 7:44 PM, Matthew Hindson (gmail) wrote:


Hi Paul,

For technique-type of things (telling the performers what to do or  
how to play their instrument), I use Roman.  For expressivo marking  
(dolce etc) and indeed sim., sempre etc. I use italic.


Asyla is published by my publisher (Faber Music) and while they've  
never conveyed any hard-and-fast rules to me (in spite of my  
asking!), that seems to be the standard that they use.


In terms of fonts, the general rule is that you should stick to the  
one family of fonts throughout the document.  The general page- 
design rule I was taught years ago is that you can use one serif  
font and one sans-serif font per page.


Cheers

Matthew

Paul Hayden wrote:
I know that many of you are very particular about the fonts you use  
for for tempos and tempo modifications, instrument names, technical  
instructions (arco, pizz., a2, con sord., div., G.P., etc.), titles  
and subtitles, composer's name, copyright info, etc.  I've worked  
out (not very methodically, I'll admit) a set of fonts, styles and  
sizes that seem to work okay. But I have two questions:
1. For technical instructions (see above), do you use italic? Bold?  
Roman? Some of both?
2. Is there a webpage somewhere that details a set of fonts  
(including sizes and styles) that work well for text-related items  
in a score?
I refer to a lot of scores, of course, but I've seen many  
variations -- sometimes within a single score. Right now I'm  
looking at page 10 of Thomas Ades's "Asyla" and I see "pizz." and  
"sul tasto" in roman, while "legato" and "sim. sempre" are in italic.

Thanks.
Paul Hayden
Magnolia Music Press

Voice & Pre-arranged fax:  225-769-9604
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Re: [Finale] Fonts for text-related items in scores

[Matthew Hindson (gmail)]

Hi Paul,

For technique-type of things (telling the performers what to do or how 
to play their instrument), I use Roman.  For expressivo marking (dolce 
etc) and indeed sim., sempre etc. I use italic.


Asyla is published by my publisher (Faber Music) and while they've never 
conveyed any hard-and-fast rules to me (in spite of my asking!), that 
seems to be the standard that they use.


In terms of fonts, the general rule is that you should stick to the one 
family of fonts throughout the document.  The general page-design rule I 
was taught years ago is that you can use one serif font and one 
sans-serif font per page.


Cheers

Matthew

Paul Hayden wrote:
I know that many of you are very particular about the fonts you use for 
for tempos and tempo modifications, instrument names, technical 
instructions (arco, pizz., a2, con sord., div., G.P., etc.), titles and 
subtitles, composer's name, copyright info, etc.  I've worked out (not 
very methodically, I'll admit) a set of fonts, styles and sizes that 
seem to work okay. But I have two questions:


1. For technical instructions (see above), do you use italic? Bold? 
Roman? Some of both?


2. Is there a webpage somewhere that details a set of fonts (including 
sizes and styles) that work well for text-related items in a score?


I refer to a lot of scores, of course, but I've seen many variations -- 
sometimes within a single score. Right now I'm looking at page 10 of 
Thomas Ades's "Asyla" and I see "pizz." and "sul tasto" in roman, while 
"legato" and "sim. sempre" are in italic.


Thanks.

Paul Hayden


Magnolia Music Press

Voice & Pre-arranged fax:  225-769-9604

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Re: [Finale] Fonts for text-related items in scores

[Noel Stoutenburg]

Paul Hayden wrote:
1. For technical instructions (see above), do you use italic? Bold? 
Roman? Some of both?


Although I haven't thoroughly studied this, my impression (and my 
custom) is, that if a directive applies to the entire ensemble, I tend 
to use italic; if it applies to a single part, I tend to use a font of a 
Roman look, or sometimes a non-serif type, depending upon my mood.


ns
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[Finale] Fonts for text-related items in scores

[Paul Hayden]

I know that many of you are very particular about the fonts you use  
for for tempos and tempo modifications, instrument names, technical  
instructions (arco, pizz., a2, con sord., div., G.P., etc.), titles  
and subtitles, composer's name, copyright info, etc.  I've worked out  
(not very methodically, I'll admit) a set of fonts, styles and sizes  
that seem to work okay. But I have two questions:


1. For technical instructions (see above), do you use italic? Bold?  
Roman? Some of both?


2. Is there a webpage somewhere that details a set of fonts (including  
sizes and styles) that work well for text-related items in a score?


I refer to a lot of scores, of course, but I've seen many variations  
-- sometimes within a single score. Right now I'm looking at page 10  
of Thomas Ades's "Asyla" and I see "pizz." and "sul tasto" in roman,  
while "legato" and "sim. sempre" are in italic.


Thanks.

Paul Hayden


Magnolia Music Press

Voice & Pre-arranged fax:  225-769-9604

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Re: [Finale] Fonts

[Johannes Gebauer]

On 04.11.2008 Allen Fisher wrote:

The font description provides the height of the tallest character, which for text fonts, that's the 
lowercase "l" or uppercase "M". In a music font the tallest character is the 
treble ottava (right term?) clef.


The font description describes every character. At least that's what I 
meant.


Johannes

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Re: [Finale] Fonts

[Allen Fisher]

The font description provides the height of the tallest character,  
which for text fonts, that's the lowercase "l" or uppercase "M". In a  
music font the tallest character is the treble ottava (right term?)  
clef.


On Nov 3, 2008, at 4:21 AM, Johannes Gebauer wrote:


On 30.10.2008 Allen Fisher wrote:
Actually, no, Finale can't automatically determine the height of  
font characters. That's why we made FAN files in the first place.


Well, are you saying that Finale cannot, or that it is impossible to  
be done? The latter seems very unlikely to me. You have the font  
description, why can you not work out from that how high a character  
extends? If I can _see_ this in the editor, I am sure Finale could  
"see" it, too.


Johannes

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Fisher Art and Technology
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[EMAIL PROTECTED]






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Re: [Finale] Fonts

[Johannes Gebauer]

On 30.10.2008 Dennis Bathory-Kitsz wrote:

This is one of the few cases where we disagree (a little).

Finale could automatically calculate as a first step, but I would prefer
to have the tool available. I used it when I worked up the Revere font set
in a Finale version for my own use.


I am not saying I don't want the tool, on the contrary, I have used it 
for extensively myself, but it is extremely poor design, and it sould be 
able to calculate the basics all by itself.


Johannes

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Re: [Finale] Fonts

[Johannes Gebauer]

On 30.10.2008 Allen Fisher wrote:

Actually, no, Finale can't automatically determine the height of font 
characters. That's why we made FAN files in the first place.


Well, are you saying that Finale cannot, or that it is impossible to be 
done? The latter seems very unlikely to me. You have the font 
description, why can you not work out from that how high a character 
extends? If I can _see_ this in the editor, I am sure Finale could "see" 
it, too.


Johannes

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Re: [Finale] Fonts

[Allen Fisher]

Actually, no, Finale can't automatically determine the height of font  
characters. That's why we made FAN files in the first place.


I don't disagree that the tool for editing can be improved, however.

On Oct 30, 2008, at 2:29 AM, Johannes Gebauer wrote:

Actually, I have never understood why Finale doesn't automatically  
calculate these FAN files. It shouldn't be difficult to do this from  
the font itself, and anyone who has done it manually knows this is a  
really tedious process (and the Finale tool for this is really badly  
designed).


Johannes

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Fisher Art and Technology
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[EMAIL PROTECTED]






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Re: [Finale] Fonts

[Dennis Bathory-Kitsz]

On Thu, October 30, 2008 3:29 am, Johannes Gebauer wrote:
> Actually, I have never understood why Finale doesn't automatically
> calculate these FAN files. It shouldn't be difficult to do this from the
> font itself, and anyone who has done it manually knows this is a really
> tedious process (and the Finale tool for this is really badly designed).

This is one of the few cases where we disagree (a little).

Finale could automatically calculate as a first step, but I would prefer
to have the tool available. I used it when I worked up the Revere font set
in a Finale version for my own use.

I like the tool and think it works fairly well (perhaps because it is
similar to a font design tool that I am comfortable with). It could be
improved with examples of articulations and slurs re-positioning as the
adjustments were made.

Dennis
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Re: [Finale] Fonts

[Johannes Gebauer]

Actually, I have never understood why Finale doesn't automatically 
calculate these FAN files. It shouldn't be difficult to do this from the 
font itself, and anyone who has done it manually knows this is a really 
tedious process (and the Finale tool for this is really badly designed).


Johannes

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Re: [Finale] Fonts

[Darcy James Argue]

Hi Allen,

FAN files are definitely used with articulations! It's a recent change  
(Fin2006 maybe?) but they are now definitely part of the equation. As  
you will discover if you import an older file that uses articulations  
in fonts that do not have corresponding FANs.


Cheers,

- Darcy
-
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Brooklyn, NY

On 29 Oct 2008, at 5:18 PM, Allen Fisher wrote:

Actually, they are used with the selection tool and the tuplet tool.  
I don't believe that they're used with articulations or Expressions.

On Oct 29, 2008, at 6:18 AM, Aaron Sherber wrote:


At 06:02 AM 10/29/2008, Lawrence David Eden wrote:
>What are "Font Annotation Files" and what do they do?

Basically, they describe the bounding box of characters in a font,  
so that Finale can allot the proper amount of space for collision  
avoidance of text expressions and articulations.


Aaron.

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[EMAIL PROTECTED]







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Re: [Finale] Fonts

[Allen Fisher]

Actually, they are used with the selection tool and the tuplet tool. I  
don't believe that they're used with articulations or Expressions.

On Oct 29, 2008, at 6:18 AM, Aaron Sherber wrote:


At 06:02 AM 10/29/2008, Lawrence David Eden wrote:
>What are "Font Annotation Files" and what do they do?

Basically, they describe the bounding box of characters in a font,  
so that Finale can allot the proper amount of space for collision  
avoidance of text expressions and articulations.


Aaron.

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[EMAIL PROTECTED]







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Re: [Finale] Fonts

[Aaron Sherber]

At 06:02 AM 10/29/2008, Lawrence David Eden wrote:
>What are "Font Annotation Files" and what do they do?

Basically, they describe the bounding box of characters in a font, so 
that Finale can allot the proper amount of space for collision 
avoidance of text expressions and articulations.


Aaron.

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[Finale] Fonts

[Lawrence David Eden]

Listers,

What are "Font Annotation Files" and what do they do?



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Re: [Finale] ILLUSTRATOR and FINALE fonts

[Simon Troup]

Hi Henry

Try this ...

PREFERENCES > TYPE & AUTO TRACING > TYPE OBJECT SELECTION BY PATH ONLY

make sure this is checked. If you don't, then you are prone to
selecting things using the whole "bounding box" rather than just the
path, which means that something with a large bounding box that is
front of the element you are trying to select, may be selected
instead.

Furthermore, finale EPS files have all their objects grouped, so you
will have to select an item and then OBJECT > UNGROUP so that you can
work with each element.

--
Simon Troup
Digital Music Art

On 3/11/07, Henry E. Howey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

I may need to export EPS or postscript into ILLUSTRATOR to achieve certain
editorial conventions.

I cannot select stems in beamed eighth notes as an Item to adjust in
ILLUSTRATOR. I can select noteheads, the beams themselves, and flags on
various note values.

I hope someone else has tried and succeeded;-)


Henry Howey
Professor of Music
  Sam Houston State University
  Box 2208
  Huntsville, TX  77341
  (936) 294-1364
  http://www.shsu.edu/music/faculty/howey.php
  Owner of FINALE Discussion List
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Re: [Finale] ILLUSTRATOR and FINALE fonts

[Rich Caldwell]

I've been able to export as EPS and edit in Illustrator. I just tried  
again and it works with 2k7 and AI CS2.


What might be happening to you is that the stem is placed behind the  
notehead character, which takes up almost the entire vertical real  
estate of the stem.


Try any of the following:

1) Click at the very tip top of the stem (or whatever end is farthest  
from the notehead).

2) Right-click and try selecting the object below the notehead.
3) Drag-select around the stem, then deselect the parts you don't want.
4) Click on the noteheads, put them on a different layer, lock it,  
then try selecting the stems on the original layer.


I don't know if that's the problem you're having, but if it is, one  
of those methods will get the stem.


Rich

On Mar 11, 2007, at 1:51 PM, Henry E. Howey wrote:
I may need to export EPS or postscript into ILLUSTRATOR to achieve  
certain

editorial conventions.

I cannot select stems in beamed eighth notes as an Item to adjust in
ILLUSTRATOR. I can select noteheads, the beams themselves, and  
flags on

various note values.

I hope someone else has tried and succeeded;-)


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Re: [Finale] ILLUSTRATOR and FINALE fonts

[shirling & neueweise]

henry,

this may or not solve the problem, but there are two different 
selection tools in illustrator that function quite differently.  also 
make sure to click outside everything (eg. outside the page edge) to 
make sure NOTHING is selected before clicking on an item to select.


i haven't had to do the kind of work you describe yet, but exporting 
as PDF has worked for most of my needs.


another thing you can do is to simply leave the items blank or NOT 
enter them in finale, if you can do the items better with 
illustrator's built-in tools, since you have to work with it anyways.


if you explain what you have to do, i might be able to help better. 
i'm no expert with illustrator, but have figured out enough to be 
able to do pretty much everything i need.  you could also send me the 
EPS privately if you want, and i can have a look.


--

shirling & neueweise ... new music publishers
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] :.../ http://newmusicnotation.com
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[Finale] ILLUSTRATOR and FINALE fonts

[Henry E. Howey]

I may need to export EPS or postscript into ILLUSTRATOR to achieve certain
editorial conventions.

I cannot select stems in beamed eighth notes as an Item to adjust in
ILLUSTRATOR. I can select noteheads, the beams themselves, and flags on
various note values.

I hope someone else has tried and succeeded;-)


Henry Howey
Professor of Music
  Sam Houston State University
  Box 2208
  Huntsville, TX  77341
  (936) 294-1364
  http://www.shsu.edu/music/faculty/howey.php
  Owner of FINALE Discussion List
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Re: [Finale] Fonts

[Mark D Lew]

On Feb 27, 2007, at 10:26 AM, Ken Moore wrote:

You don't mention Georgia, which I use mainly for its figures (with  
ascenders and descenders).  At 22 point, it has about the same x- 
height as 24-point TNR, but it may be too wide for your purposes.


I like Georgia, but it's far too wide for lyrics.

Georgia is an extremely well-designed font. Along with its partner  
Verdana, it was one of the first designed specifically for on-screen  
reading, and it's still among the best. I strongly recommend Georgia  
and Verdana as defaults for viewing websites.


That doesn't mean they can't look good on paper, of course, but the  
fonts were designed with a specific goal in mind.  The readability  
factors for screen and for print aren't the same, so if a font is  
optimized for one it won't be optimized for the other.  For the same  
reason, I wouldn't expect Minion/Myriad to be ideal for reading on  
screen.


mdl
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Re: [Finale] Fonts

[Ken Moore]

Mark D Lew <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


I just ran through my font library trying all the 
classic serifs I've got.  Many of them were too wide  
to be practical.  Three or four others are roughly the 
same proportions as Times and Caslon with slightly 
different looks.  Aside from Minion, the only one with 
a significant x-height gain over Times is Palatino.  I

like Palatino in general, and it's my usual fallback
font for letters and that sort of thing, but I have
mixed feelings about it for music.  On the whole, I 
think I don't like it.


You don't mention Georgia, which I use mainly for its figures (with 
ascenders and descenders).  At 22 point, it has about the same x-height 
as 24-point TNR, but it may be too wide for your purposes.


--
Ken Moore

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Re: [Finale] Fonts

[Mark D Lew]

On Feb 27, 2007, at 3:12 AM, Lawrence David Eden wrote:

One of my favorite fonts is Tekton.  I use it to name the various  
tune titles in  my medleys.  It is very clear and it certainly  
catches the eye.  (I am on a Mac platformis Tekton available  
for PCs)?


Tekton is offered by both Adobe and Linotype.  I'm not sure if it's  
two different fonts of the same typeface or the same font licensed by  
one to the other. Both offer it in various formats for both platforms.


The original Tekton design was based on the hand lettering of  
architect Frank Ching, as used in one of his books. Bolds and italics  
were derived from it later.


There's also a shareware font called "Frank the Architect" based on  
the same hand-lettering. It has a similar look but is definitely not  
identical.  I think the designer of the latter was aiming to more  
closely follow the actual handwriting, whereas with Tekton it was  
modified for the sake of more general aesthetics and practicality.


mdl
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Re: [Finale] Fonts

[Lawrence David Eden]

One of my favorite fonts is Tekton.  I use it to name the various 
tune titles in  my medleys.  It is very clear and it certainly 
catches the eye.  (I am on a Mac platformis Tekton available for 
PCs)?





Recently, someone mentioned resorting to using Times as a lyric 
font.  I'd like to ask what other fonts people typically use for 
lyrics, text boxes, text expressions, etc.  Is there something close 
to "standard."  If it would be better to reply off-list, please feel 
free to do so.


Thank you,

Brennon Bortz
Teaching Assistant and Graduate Student - Music Composition
University of California, Riverside
[EMAIL PROTECTED]



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Re: SPAM LOW: Re: [Finale] Fonts

[Mark D Lew]

On Feb 26, 2007, at 11:45 AM, George Brooke wrote:

I, too, have found Minion to be a very useable typeface. It's  
relatively elegant looking and very readable at all sizes. As you  
point out, it comes in a variety of faces which adds to its  
versatility. I also like Caslon but, like you, haven't tried it for  
lyrics. Something for both of us to investigate.


When I wrote before I was getting my Caslons mixed up.  The one I  
have with a relatively large x-height is called "Big Caslon".  I just  
tried it for lyrics and I didn't like it one bit.  It has a big  
contrast between thick and thin strokes, so I think maybe it was  
intended as a display face in large sizes only.  As a lyric font it  
looks terrible.  I'm not sure where that font came from; I think  
maybe it was packaged with the Apple OS.  (Almost all my fonts are  
either from the basic Apple package or the basic Adobe package.)


The other Caslon I was thinking of is from Adobe's standard  
collection.  It's called Adobe Caslon Pro, and I tried it, too.  It  
looks very nice, but in terms of overall proportions it's pretty much  
the same as Times, so there's no gain there.  Still, it could be a  
nice alternative for someone who wants something not too unlike Times  
but with a little classier and more elegant look.


I just ran through my font library trying all the classic serifs I've  
got.  Many of them were too wide to be practical.  Three or four  
others are roughly the same proportions as Times and Caslon with  
slightly different looks.  Aside from Minion, the only one with a  
significant x-height gain over Times is Palatino.  I like Palatino in  
general, and it's my usual fallback font for letters and that sort of  
thing, but I have mixed feelings about it for music.  On the whole, I  
think I don't like it.


mdl
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Re: SPAM LOW: Re: [Finale] Fonts

[George Brooke]

I, too, have found Minion to be a very useable typeface. It's relatively 
elegant looking and very readable at all sizes. As you point out, it comes 
in a variety of faces which adds to its versatility. I also like Caslon but, 
like you, haven't tried it for lyrics. Something for both of us to 
investigate.


George


- Original Message - 
From: "Mark D Lew" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: 
Sent: Monday, February 26, 2007 12:26 PM
Subject: SPAM LOW: Re: [Finale] Fonts



On Feb 26, 2007, at 5:50 AM, Brennon Bortz wrote:

Recently, someone mentioned resorting to using Times as a lyric  font. 
I'd like to ask what other fonts people typically use for  lyrics, text 
boxes, text expressions, etc.  Is there something  close to "standard." 
If it would be better to reply off-list,  please feel free to do so.


Times is probably fairly close to a standard.  Certainly nothing else  is 
more standard.  Since I'm among those who have disparaged Times  New 
Roman, perhaps it would help if I elaborate a bit.


I suppose I have to start with the difference between a typeface and  a 
font.  A typeface is a design style; it indicates the shape of all  the 
characters, regardless of how they are drawn.  A font is a  specific 
rendering of that typeface into a tool that you can use for  printing.  In 
the old days the typeface was designed by an artist who  drew out the 
characters, and the font was pressed into lead. Each  printer would have 
his own font, though later they came to be mass- produced and thus 
essentially identical. Nowadays the font is a  digital rendering. There 
can be many fonts for the same typeface, and  indeed for all the most 
common typefaces there are.


My objections to Times New Roman is an objection to the font, not the 
typeface.  It's simply not very well designed. This is most  noticeable in 
the measure of spacing between letters.  Any time you  have "rt" for 
example, they will run together, which is bad for both  aesthetics and 
readability.  In many applications you'd have the  option of kerning them 
apart, but you can't do that in Finale (not in  lyrics anyway). Times New 
Roman is popular because it is ubiquitous  and free. There are many Times 
fonts that are better implemented than  TNR, but you have to pay for them. 
Most people don't bother. They've  got TNR for free, and so does everyone 
else who might open the  document: why bother spending money just to 
become incompatible?   It's like the QWERTY keyboard.


My objection to the Times typeface as a lyric font is milder.  I  don't 
dislike Times generally.  I think it's not the best choice for  lyrics 
mostly because it doesn't have a large x height.  For lyrics  you want to 
have as much readability as you can get for the space you  take up, and 
horizontal space is more crucial than vertical space.   Therefore, two 
features which will help you is large x-height (the  ratio of lowercase 
height to uppercase height) and narrower  characters (ie, lower ratio of 
width to height).  In both cases you  don't necessarily want to go too 
extreme, but I think you want to be  on the good side of average.


Times's x-height is not excessively small, but it's not particularly 
large either. I actually use Times most of the time in spite of this  flaw 
(mostly because clients are comfortable with it), just as I  sometimes use 
Palatino in spite of it not being particularly narrow.   For my own casual 
stuff, I experiment more.  Lately I've been using  Minion, a relatively 
new Adobe font, very well-designed with  readability primary in mind. It 
also has a nice condensed version  which is narrower than normal but not 
so narrow as to look unduly  skinny.  A possible drawback is that Minion 
has a modern and slightly  cold look to it, which might be an aesthetic 
drawback for some styles  of music.


Newer typefaces tend to have larger x-height than the classics. (The 
proprietary typeface designed for the Economist magazine has an 
especially large one, for example.)  Older fonts tend to have smaller 
x-heights (eg, most of the many varieties of Garamond). I think it  would 
be worth exploring the classics to look for one whose x-height  isn't too 
small. Adobe's standard package includes a Caslon face that  I think fits 
that description.  I think that would probably be an  excellent lyric 
choice, though I've never tried it. (But come to  think of it, perhaps I 
will)


I don't even consider sans-serif fonts for lyrics.  To my eye it's  just 
ugly and unprofessional looking.  On average, sans-serifs are  less 
readable than serifs, but that's not a 100% rule.  There are  some very 
readable sans-serif faces, and anyway readability is  dependent on 
context, not an absolute quality.


mdl
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Re: [Finale] Fonts

[Mark D Lew]

On Feb 26, 2007, at 5:50 AM, Brennon Bortz wrote:

Recently, someone mentioned resorting to using Times as a lyric  
font.  I'd like to ask what other fonts people typically use for  
lyrics, text boxes, text expressions, etc.  Is there something  
close to "standard."  If it would be better to reply off-list,  
please feel free to do so.


Times is probably fairly close to a standard.  Certainly nothing else  
is more standard.  Since I'm among those who have disparaged Times  
New Roman, perhaps it would help if I elaborate a bit.


I suppose I have to start with the difference between a typeface and  
a font.  A typeface is a design style; it indicates the shape of all  
the characters, regardless of how they are drawn.  A font is a  
specific rendering of that typeface into a tool that you can use for  
printing.  In the old days the typeface was designed by an artist who  
drew out the characters, and the font was pressed into lead. Each  
printer would have his own font, though later they came to be mass- 
produced and thus essentially identical. Nowadays the font is a  
digital rendering. There can be many fonts for the same typeface, and  
indeed for all the most common typefaces there are.


My objections to Times New Roman is an objection to the font, not the  
typeface.  It's simply not very well designed. This is most  
noticeable in the measure of spacing between letters.  Any time you  
have "rt" for example, they will run together, which is bad for both  
aesthetics and readability.  In many applications you'd have the  
option of kerning them apart, but you can't do that in Finale (not in  
lyrics anyway). Times New Roman is popular because it is ubiquitous  
and free. There are many Times fonts that are better implemented than  
TNR, but you have to pay for them.  Most people don't bother. They've  
got TNR for free, and so does everyone else who might open the  
document: why bother spending money just to become incompatible?   
It's like the QWERTY keyboard.


My objection to the Times typeface as a lyric font is milder.  I  
don't dislike Times generally.  I think it's not the best choice for  
lyrics mostly because it doesn't have a large x height.  For lyrics  
you want to have as much readability as you can get for the space you  
take up, and horizontal space is more crucial than vertical space.   
Therefore, two features which will help you is large x-height (the  
ratio of lowercase height to uppercase height) and narrower  
characters (ie, lower ratio of width to height).  In both cases you  
don't necessarily want to go too extreme, but I think you want to be  
on the good side of average.


Times's x-height is not excessively small, but it's not particularly  
large either. I actually use Times most of the time in spite of this  
flaw (mostly because clients are comfortable with it), just as I  
sometimes use Palatino in spite of it not being particularly narrow.   
For my own casual stuff, I experiment more.  Lately I've been using  
Minion, a relatively new Adobe font, very well-designed with  
readability primary in mind. It also has a nice condensed version  
which is narrower than normal but not so narrow as to look unduly  
skinny.  A possible drawback is that Minion has a modern and slightly  
cold look to it, which might be an aesthetic drawback for some styles  
of music.


Newer typefaces tend to have larger x-height than the classics. (The  
proprietary typeface designed for the Economist magazine has an  
especially large one, for example.)  Older fonts tend to have smaller  
x-heights (eg, most of the many varieties of Garamond). I think it  
would be worth exploring the classics to look for one whose x-height  
isn't too small. Adobe's standard package includes a Caslon face that  
I think fits that description.  I think that would probably be an  
excellent lyric choice, though I've never tried it. (But come to  
think of it, perhaps I will)


I don't even consider sans-serif fonts for lyrics.  To my eye it's  
just ugly and unprofessional looking.  On average, sans-serifs are  
less readable than serifs, but that's not a 100% rule.  There are  
some very readable sans-serif faces, and anyway readability is  
dependent on context, not an absolute quality.


mdl
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{Spam} RE: [Finale] Fonts

[Richard Yates]

I use Times New Roman italic 14 pt. for text expressions, normal for
fingerings (guitar), and bold for tempo text. Some years ago I adventured
into obscure fonts and ran into portability disasters. You will probably
hear some here disparage TNR but beware selecting fonts that are uncommon.

Richard Yates

>Recently, someone mentioned resorting to using Times as a 
>lyric font.  I'd like to ask what other fonts people typically 
>use for lyrics, text boxes, text expressions, etc.  Is there 
>something close to "standard."

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Re: SPAM LOW: Re: [Finale] Fonts

[George Brooke]

On a Mac all the fonts named after cities were designed for screen display. 
This goes back to the days of when we mainly had dot matrix printers so when 
they were printed it didn't matter so much. Since those fonts were part of 
the systems display fonts back in OS 7 & 8 they have hung around. As you say 
they are not good choices.


Guess I'm showing may age here - Oh well!

George
- Original Message - 
From: "Christopher Smith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: 
Sent: Monday, February 26, 2007 9:29 AM
Subject: SPAM LOW: Re: [Finale] Fonts




On Feb 26, 2007, at 8:50 AM, Brennon Bortz wrote:

Recently, someone mentioned resorting to using Times as a lyric  font. 
I'd like to ask what other fonts people typically use for  lyrics, text 
boxes, text expressions, etc.  Is there something  close to "standard." 
If it would be better to reply off-list,  please feel free to do so.


I suppose Times (or what seems to have replaced it on Mac - Times New 
Roman) is as close to a standard as there is. That is the reason some 
dislike it, I think, along with the crappy versions of the font that  have 
shown up over the years.


I don't publish often, so I usually use Times New Roman for  legibility 
and general availability. If I were to create for  publication, I would 
probably have to study up a bit (or a lot!) to  find a font that was 
beautiful and effective. Serif fonts are the  usual choices, like 
Palatino, and I think someone mentioned New  Century Schoolbook. For an 
older look, I find Modern No. 20 is  stylised but nice-looking (seems to 
have come on my Mac, but there  are freeware versions) though the spacing 
seems irregular to me.  Maybe it's just the version I have.


Avoid like the plague any font named after a city (New York, Monaco, 
etc.) Maybe it's just the ones I have, but they all look bad to me. 
Anyone know why?


Christopher


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Re: [Finale] Fonts

[Christopher Smith]

On Feb 26, 2007, at 8:50 AM, Brennon Bortz wrote:

Recently, someone mentioned resorting to using Times as a lyric  
font.  I'd like to ask what other fonts people typically use for  
lyrics, text boxes, text expressions, etc.  Is there something  
close to "standard."  If it would be better to reply off-list,  
please feel free to do so.


I suppose Times (or what seems to have replaced it on Mac - Times New  
Roman) is as close to a standard as there is. That is the reason some  
dislike it, I think, along with the crappy versions of the font that  
have shown up over the years.


I don't publish often, so I usually use Times New Roman for  
legibility and general availability. If I were to create for  
publication, I would probably have to study up a bit (or a lot!) to  
find a font that was beautiful and effective. Serif fonts are the  
usual choices, like Palatino, and I think someone mentioned New  
Century Schoolbook. For an older look, I find Modern No. 20 is  
stylised but nice-looking (seems to have come on my Mac, but there  
are freeware versions) though the spacing seems irregular to me.  
Maybe it's just the version I have.


Avoid like the plague any font named after a city (New York, Monaco,  
etc.) Maybe it's just the ones I have, but they all look bad to me.  
Anyone know why?


Christopher


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Re: [Finale] Fonts

[Johannes Gebauer]

On 26.02.2007 Brennon Bortz wrote:

Recently, someone mentioned resorting to using Times as a lyric font.  I'd like to ask 
what other fonts people typically use for lyrics, text boxes, text expressions, etc.  Is 
there something close to "standard."  If it would be better to reply off-list, 
please feel free to do so.


I prefer New Century Schoolbook to anything Times. In fact I have a real 
disliking to Times.


Johannes
--
http://www.musikmanufaktur.com
http://www.camerata-berolinensis.de

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Re: [Finale] Fonts

[dhbailey]

Brennon Bortz wrote:
Recently, someone mentioned resorting to using Times as a lyric font.  
I'd like to ask what other fonts people typically use for lyrics, text 
boxes, text expressions, etc.  Is there something close to "standard."  
If it would be better to reply off-list, please feel free to do so.





All replies on-list, please, since this is a topic which affects us all 
at some point.


I've done some with Times, I've done some with Arial, I've done some 
with Garamond, I can't find anything which works equally well at all 
point sizes.



--
David H. Bailey
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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[Finale] Fonts

[Brennon Bortz]

Recently, someone mentioned resorting to using Times as a lyric  
font.  I'd like to ask what other fonts people typically use for  
lyrics, text boxes, text expressions, etc.  Is there something close  
to "standard."  If it would be better to reply off-list, please feel  
free to do so.


Thank you,

Brennon Bortz
Teaching Assistant and Graduate Student - Music Composition
University of California, Riverside
[EMAIL PROTECTED]



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[Finale] fonts

[VivianAR]

Not too long ago people mentioned getting the stupid looking misprint of big 
3's & weird looking print from older files caused by not having updated fonts.

One person said to get Cocktail.   I looked up Cocktail & there was no 
mention of fonts.
What was the remedy for updating the old files with irregular reading fonts?

Thanks

Vivian

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[Finale] fonts sometimes larger in expresson menu

[shirling & neueweise]

i've noticed this since moving up to 2007, every once in awhile when 
scrolling through the expression list all the expressions i have 
defined as fixed size are larger than they normally appear in the 
menu.  sometimes they are so large that i can't even read them (at 
least twice as large).


anyone else witnessed this?

never saw this on the same computer/system with 2005.

--

shirling & neueweise ... new music publishers
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] :.../ http://newmusicnotation.com
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Re: [Finale] fonts for jazz - comparison?

[Eric Dannewitz]

I'd second this. Bill's articulations font (plus all his other great 
fonts, like rehearsal and enclosure) and Maestro font make for clear, 
professional looking charts. I used to think the Jazz font was great. 
Hell, I bought it before it was bundled with Finale (like, 1995ish?). I 
even bought and used the Swing font (by the same author of the jazz 
font), but left all those in favor of clear, professional looking 
charts/sheets/scores.


Chuck Israels wrote:

Dear Jef,

I use Maestro combined with Bill Duncan's chord font (that I find to 
be beautiful, clear, and relatively compact in relation to its 
readability) and a few of his other special fonts for rehearsal 
letters and articulations.  While there are some who like the Finale 
Jazz font, I find it unpleasant (I'm speaking in my courteous web 
voice - ask me what I really think!) and the idea of a fake 
handwritten font for computers simply doesn't work for me.  Ash Music 
has a better one, but I end up coming down on the side of a font that 
looks like printing and using other elements of the graphic 
communication to convey the spirit of my music.  Just an opinion from 
one who appreciates good graphic design and good music engraving and 
who is for sure a product of the jazz world.


Chuck


On Oct 17, 2006, at 4:21 PM, shirling & neueweise wrote:



does anyone have examples of the various fonts used for jazz, ideally 
this would be the same sheet of music in X versions, corresponding to 
X fonts.  i'm interested in the music and text fonts, and not just 
the ones bundled with finale.


cheers,
jef

--
shirling & neueweise ... new music publishers
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] :.../ http://newmusicnotation.com
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Chuck Israels
230 North Garden Terrace
Bellingham, WA 98225-5836
phone (360) 671-3402
fax (360) 676-6055
www.chuckisraels.com

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Re: [Finale] fonts for jazz - comparison?

[Chuck Israels]

Dear Jef,

I use Maestro combined with Bill Duncan's chord font (that I find to  
be beautiful, clear, and relatively compact in relation to its  
readability) and a few of his other special fonts for rehearsal  
letters and articulations.  While there are some who like the Finale  
Jazz font, I find it unpleasant (I'm speaking in my courteous web  
voice - ask me what I really think!) and the idea of a fake  
handwritten font for computers simply doesn't work for me.  Ash Music  
has a better one, but I end up coming down on the side of a font that  
looks like printing and using other elements of the graphic  
communication to convey the spirit of my music.  Just an opinion from  
one who appreciates good graphic design and good music engraving and  
who is for sure a product of the jazz world.


Chuck


On Oct 17, 2006, at 4:21 PM, shirling & neueweise wrote:



does anyone have examples of the various fonts used for jazz,  
ideally this would be the same sheet of music in X versions,  
corresponding to X fonts.  i'm interested in the music and text  
fonts, and not just the ones bundled with finale.


cheers,
jef

--

shirling & neueweise ... new music publishers
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] :.../ http://newmusicnotation.com
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Chuck Israels
230 North Garden Terrace
Bellingham, WA 98225-5836
phone (360) 671-3402
fax (360) 676-6055
www.chuckisraels.com

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[Finale] fonts for jazz - comparison?

[shirling & neueweise]

does anyone have examples of the various fonts used for jazz, ideally 
this would be the same sheet of music in X versions, corresponding to 
X fonts.  i'm interested in the music and text fonts, and not just 
the ones bundled with finale.


cheers,
jef

--

shirling & neueweise ... new music publishers
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] :.../ http://newmusicnotation.com
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Re: [Finale] Fonts

[Eric Dannewitz]

TGTools has a Font Info feature. Its under Misc->Font Info

I don't know if it's in the free version or not.


Greg Scheer wrote:

Hi,

First of all, thanks for all your suggestions for default settings. Now for
a quick question: is there a way that I can track down a list of fonts that
are used in a particular document? I can swap fonts if I know what font I
want to swap and I can do a data check to find out how many fonts are used
(14 in this case), but I can't find a place that lists which fonts are used
in a document. I'm trying to trim my fonts back to a music font, a display
font (for titles, etc) and a text font for lyrics and text boxes. So why do
I have 14 fonts listed? I'd hate to think that there's a stray times new
roman space or dash that will bloat file sizes when I encapsulate fonts into
a PDF or EPS file. Any ideas?

Peace,

Greg


==
Minister of Worship Greg Scheer   Home
Church of the Servant   www.gregscheer.com
3835 Burton SE 3650 Ridgeway Rd SE
Grand Rapids, MI 49546  Grand Rapids, MI 49546
616-956-7611x26 [EMAIL PROTECTED]   616-464-1505
==
"It's a pretty yummy life!"
-Simon Scheer (while eating popcorn)
==


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[Finale] Fonts

[Greg Scheer]

Hi,

First of all, thanks for all your suggestions for default settings. Now for
a quick question: is there a way that I can track down a list of fonts that
are used in a particular document? I can swap fonts if I know what font I
want to swap and I can do a data check to find out how many fonts are used
(14 in this case), but I can't find a place that lists which fonts are used
in a document. I'm trying to trim my fonts back to a music font, a display
font (for titles, etc) and a text font for lyrics and text boxes. So why do
I have 14 fonts listed? I'd hate to think that there's a stray times new
roman space or dash that will bloat file sizes when I encapsulate fonts into
a PDF or EPS file. Any ideas?

Peace,

Greg


==
Minister of Worship Greg Scheer   Home
Church of the Servant   www.gregscheer.com
3835 Burton SE 3650 Ridgeway Rd SE
Grand Rapids, MI 49546  Grand Rapids, MI 49546
616-956-7611x26 [EMAIL PROTECTED]   616-464-1505
==
"It's a pretty yummy life!"
-Simon Scheer (while eating popcorn)
==


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Re: [Finale] Does PDF require Finale Fonts?

[Eric Dannewitz]

You have to make sure you embed the fonts. I have no idea if CutePDF 
does that. It sounds like your program blotched the job.


Richy wrote:
I made a PDF of a Finale file on my PC using CutePDF. Then I eMailed 
it to someone who uses a Mac. They said it looked unreadable, like 
hieroglyphics, *except* for the lyrics. It so happens I used Arial for 
the lyrics. The rest were Finale fonts. This makes me think that the 
problem is something like the Mac needing to have all the Finale fonts 
installed in order for the PDF file to work properly.


I was under the impression that a PDF file was totally self-contained 
and that someone who didn't have Finale could view a PDF. Does a PDF 
file require the fonts that are used in the original Finale file to be 
installed on any computer being used to view the PDF file?


I was thinking of having the person download and install Finale 
NotePad on their Mac in order to get those fonts. Would that work? Of 
course the whole reason for my sending them a PDF in the first place 
was so that they wouldn't need to download NotePad.

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[Finale] Does PDF require Finale Fonts?

[Richy]

I made a PDF of a Finale file on my PC using CutePDF. Then I eMailed it to 
someone who uses a Mac. They said it looked unreadable, like hieroglyphics, 
*except* for the lyrics. It so happens I used Arial for the lyrics. The rest 
were Finale fonts. This makes me think that the problem is something like the 
Mac needing to have all the Finale fonts installed in order for the PDF file to 
work properly.

I was under the impression that a PDF file was totally self-contained and that 
someone who didn't have Finale could view a PDF. Does a PDF file require the 
fonts that are used in the original Finale file to be installed on any computer 
being used to view the PDF file?

I was thinking of having the person download and install Finale NotePad on 
their Mac in order to get those fonts. Would that work? Of course the whole 
reason for my sending them a PDF in the first place was so that they wouldn't 
need to download NotePad.
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Re: [Finale] Curious about Finale fonts

[JohnBlane]

In a message dated 9/24/05 6:02:49 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:



> Hi there: I haven't subscribed in a while but have come back since I
> have a question that has come up. I am way behind in many things,
> including Finale, which is 2000c for Mac. (I have to boot in OS 9 to
> use it, can't even run it in Classic.) So, I opened a couple of quite
> elderly files the other day and the noteheads all came up as
> goofy-looking Latin-style diphthongs (oe, ae, etc.) rather than notes.
> All that stuff was all wrong. I believe that OS X will not use
> bitmapped fonts at all, but I thought that booting in OS 9 would be
> OK. What's going on?


I believe that the problem will resolve itself if you place your fonts (or copies of your music fonts) into the fonts folder inside your OS 9 System Folder and restart.
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Re: [Finale] Curious about Finale fonts

[Noel Stoutenburg]

William Spencer wrote:

Hi there: I haven't subscribed in a while but have come back since I 
have a question that has come up. I am way behind in many things, 
including Finale, which is 2000c for Mac. (I have to boot in OS 9 to 
use it, can't even run it in Classic.) So, I opened a couple of quite 
elderly files the other day and the noteheads all came up as 
goofy-looking Latin-style diphthongs (oe, ae, etc.) rather than notes. 
All that stuff was all wrong. I believe that OS X will not use 
bitmapped fonts at all, but I thought that booting in OS 9 would be 
OK. What's going on? 


Warning, I am not a MAC person, so while I am aware that there are 
"issues" related to fonts in MAC, between versions of the MAC OS, I am 
not able to write to the details.  That said is it sounds to me like the 
documents are trying to link to a missing, or corrupted font file.  What 
I'd do is to open a copy of one of the documents, verrify the fonts 
used, and and make sure that all of the fonts used in the document are 
available in the proper version.


ns
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[Finale] Curious about Finale fonts

[William Spencer]

Hi there: I haven't subscribed in a while but have come back since I 
have a question that has come up. I am way behind in many things, 
including Finale, which is 2000c for Mac. (I have to boot in OS 9 to 
use it, can't even run it in Classic.) So, I opened a couple of quite 
elderly files the other day and the noteheads all came up as 
goofy-looking Latin-style diphthongs (oe, ae, etc.) rather than notes. 
All that stuff was all wrong. I believe that OS X will not use 
bitmapped fonts at all, but I thought that booting in OS 9 would be OK. 
What's going on? Are these salvageable?


As always, my thanks in advance!

***

Bill Spencer in New Hampshire
B&W G3/400mhz/rev.2/385mb/12G + 20G HD/Jaguar (10.2.8)

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Re: [Finale] Fonts gone suddenly

[ThomaStudios]

Well, I ran TechTool in an eDrive, set it to run every test imaginable, 
and left.  I needed space and to run some errands.


When I returned and restarted, all my fonts were back available.  Ya 
know, there are many things I like about OS X, but at the same time, 
it's the overriding anal retention of this OS that grinds my cookies.


Thanks everyone for all the assistance.  Back to work now.

L8R
JD

***

J.D. Thomas
ThomaStudios
West Linn OR
www.thomastudios.com

***


On Aug 12, 2005, at 10:00 AM, Eric Dannewitz wrote:


You could try this, though it's a 10.4 fix

Go to Macintosh HD/Library/Caches

Delete com.apple.ATS

User will be prompted for an admin password

Restart

Empty Trash


Another thing to try is to move all the fonts out of the folder, 
reboot, then move them back in.


ThomaStudios wrote:

I need the collective help of the list here.  I restarted my computer 
this morning after working for a couple of hours in Finale.  After 
the restart, all my fonts were gone, so to speak.  When I open 
FontBook, the User collection and Classic are off and greyed out.  
Shit!!  I've repaired permissions and will go in after this and run 
Disk Warrior among other utilities.


The fonts are there in my home folder and in the main Library folder, 
but I can't turn on the collection.


Any advice??

I'm running OS X 10.3.9

Thanks in advance.


http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale



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Re: [Finale] Fonts gone suddenly

[Eric Dannewitz]

You could try this, though it's a 10.4 fix

Go to Macintosh HD/Library/Caches

Delete com.apple.ATS

User will be prompted for an admin password

Restart

Empty Trash


Another thing to try is to move all the fonts out of the folder, reboot, 
then move them back in.


ThomaStudios wrote:

I need the collective help of the list here.  I restarted my computer 
this morning after working for a couple of hours in Finale.  After the 
restart, all my fonts were gone, so to speak.  When I open FontBook, 
the User collection and Classic are off and greyed out.  Shit!!  I've 
repaired permissions and will go in after this and run Disk Warrior 
among other utilities.


The fonts are there in my home folder and in the main Library folder, 
but I can't turn on the collection.


Any advice??

I'm running OS X 10.3.9

Thanks in advance.

J.D. Thomas
ThomaStudios

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[Finale] Fonts gone suddenly

[ThomaStudios]

I need the collective help of the list here.  I restarted my computer 
this morning after working for a couple of hours in Finale.  After the 
restart, all my fonts were gone, so to speak.  When I open FontBook, 
the User collection and Classic are off and greyed out.  Shit!!  I've 
repaired permissions and will go in after this and run Disk Warrior 
among other utilities.


The fonts are there in my home folder and in the main Library folder, 
but I can't turn on the collection.


Any advice??

I'm running OS X 10.3.9

Thanks in advance.

J.D. Thomas
ThomaStudios

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Re: [Finale] fonts in OS X (slightly OT)

[Allen Fisher]

Title: Re: [Finale] fonts in OS X (slightly OT)



Chuck--

If you have OS 10.3, check out FontBook. It’s sort of an ATM-ish thing built right into the OS. We added some support for it in Finale 2005.

Otherwise, you’ll want to investigate something like Extensis Suitcase.

Allen


On 12/3/04 2:10 PM, "Chuck Israels" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> saith:

Addressed to all the MAC gurus, Darcy, Brad, Chris and the rest of you.  You know who you are. 

How does one manage fonts in Finale in OS X?  I have a long list from which I usually need to select from a dozen or so.  Isn't there a way to show only the ones you need to see in OS X?  Why don't I know how to do this?  Somehow I missed learning this, and the various places that store fonts in OS X are not really so self explanatory as they are touted to be (to me anyway).  I also have two copies of a couple of fonts showing up in my Finale list, and I am not sure how to best deal with that. 

I'll appreciate any enlightenment. (I may not be tho only person living with this annoyance out of slothful habit or embarrassment about asking something that seems so rudimentary.) 

TIA. 

Chuck 

Chuck Israels 
230 North Garden Terrace 
Bellingham, WA 98225-5836 
phone (360) 671-3402 
fax (360) 676-6055 
www.chuckisraels.com
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Re: [Finale] fonts in OS X (slightly OT)

[laloba2]

Hi Chuck,
There are others on this list that know much more than I do about 
third party font management software so I will leave that to them. 
But here's my .02 worth.

There are three main OS X places (four if you are using the Classic 
environment too--OS 9 System Folder>Fonts) where fonts "live."

1)  System>Library>Fonts  -- this is where the fonts that the OS 
itself uses are.  Administrative or root privileges are required to 
modify this folder.  (not usually recommended)

2)  Macintosh HD>Library>Fonts  -- this is where fonts that all users 
on the computer have access to live.  These fonts can include 
"default" mac fonts (the ones your computer shipped with) and also 
any third party fonts that a user later installs.

3)  Any user folder>Library>Fonts  --this is the same as #2 except 
when a font is in this folder, it will only be available to the 
currently logged in user.

There is an application in the applications folder that is part of OS 
X called Font Book.  You can use this application to add and 
enable/disable fonts.  If you launch the application you will see 
three columns.  The leftmost column allows you to create new font 
collections and see which fonts are in each collection. This can help 
you to organize your fonts and also see which fonts are living where 
on your computer (click the triangle next to "all fonts" and you can 
see which fonts are available to all users on the computer and/or to 
the currently logged in user)

The middle column lists the fonts in whichever "collection" you have 
highlighted (or all, computer and user).  If you see a dot to the 
right of a font it means there is a duplicate font.  The rightmost 
column is a preview window.  You can also change the preview "view" 
and find info about a font by selecting different things in the 
Preview  menu while a font is highlighted.  (shortcuts cmd - 1 cmd - 
2 and cmd - 3 are shortcuts for this)  Click on the arrows to the 
left of a font to see the different fonts within a font "family" too.

You can use this app to add a font by clicking on the plus sign at 
the bottom of the middle column while "All Fonts" is selected in the 
left column (of course, you can add directly to a collection too.) 
You will be asked where you want the fonts to be installed. 
Selecting "for me only" will put the fonts into location #3 above. 
Selecting "for all users of this computer" will put the font into 
location #2.  And selecting "for Classic OS" will put the font into 
your OS 9 System Folder so that the font is available when you are in 
classic mode (if you have classic installed.)   The disable button at 
the bottom of the middle column does what it says it does :-)

You can also install fonts by directly dragging and dropping them 
into the folders I listed above (again, caution when dealing with 
location #1)

Third party applications can also handle fonts in some interesting 
ways within themselves but again, I shall defer to others on the list 
who have more experience than I do with this to do the enlightening.


 (I may not be tho only person living with this annoyance out of 
slothful habit or embarrassment about asking something that seems so 
rudimentary.)
Fonts in OS X are not straight ahead at all.  You are most certainly not 
alone!
Best,
Karen
--
Karen Guthery
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
ichat: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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[Finale] fonts in OS X (slightly OT)

[Chuck Israels]

Addressed to all the MAC gurus, Darcy, Brad, Chris and the rest of you.  You know who you are.

How does one manage fonts in Finale in OS X?  I have a long list from which I usually need to select from a dozen or so.  Isn't there a way to show only the ones you need to see in OS X?  Why don't I know how to do this?  Somehow I missed learning this, and the various places that store fonts in OS X are not really so self explanatory as they are touted to be (to me anyway).  I also have two copies of a couple of fonts showing up in my Finale list, and I am not sure how to best deal with that.

I'll appreciate any enlightenment. (I may not be tho only person living with this annoyance out of slothful habit or embarrassment about asking something that seems so rudimentary.)

TIA.

Chuck

Chuck Israels
230 North Garden Terrace
Bellingham, WA 98225-5836
phone (360) 671-3402
fax (360) 676-6055
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