Re: [Finale] Maintenance Update downloading question
On 2009/10/22, at 20:26, Allen Fisher wrote: I suggested this when I worked at MM, but P2P has such a bad rap...despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary, the perception of P2P in the world is that it's only good for violating copyright. And attacking the far-end. I used to work for one of the two network switch manufactures who can decrypt P2P packets. You won't believe how dangerous P2P packets are. It's so easy to embed attac-kware in P2P packets, and you won't get caught. -- - Hiro Hiroaki Honshuku, A-NO-NE Music, Greater Boston http://a-no-ne.com http://anonemusic.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Maintenance Update downloading
I'm back sitting in my corner again. :-( David "la-la-la I can't hear you" Bailey Allen Fisher wrote: Boys! What did Chris tell you!? :-D On Oct 22, 2009, at 7:12 PM, David W. Fenton wrote: On 22 Oct 2009 at 19:56, dhbailey wrote: David W. Fenton wrote: On 22 Oct 2009 at 6:35, dhbailey wrote: There's no way to know Why don't you meditate on that one -- treat it as your koan for the day. Because I've got better things to do, such as figure out how to piss you off in these messages. :-) Piss me off? You're my entertainment for the day! There's nothing like the smell of righteous indignation in the morning! ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale -- David H. Bailey dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Maintenance Update downloading question
Hi Allen, Am 23.10.2009 um 02:26 schrieb Allen Fisher: On Oct 22, 2009, at 5:46 PM, Gerhard Torges wrote: Am 22.10.2009 um 01:29 schrieb Christopher Smith: It downloaded about a hundred times faster for me next day, probably because I had about a hundredth of the peers downloading it at the same time as I had the previous day. Seems like a good candidate for peer-to-peer distribution. ;-) I suggested this when I worked at MM, but P2P has such a bad rap...despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary, the perception of P2P in the world is that it's only good for violating copyright. Plus, there's no P2P client software bundled with Windows. On the other hands, speed and builtin integrity checks are both strong arguments for P2P. Gerhard ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Maintenance Update downloading
Am 23.10.2009 um 01:37 schrieb David W. Fenton: Do you really have any conception at all of what's involved in managing the documentation for an application as complex as Finale? To keep it short: Yes, I have. It's not a triviality. I have been co-authoring and translating software and hardware manuals for big and small companies as well as for shareware or freeware products for 15 years now. Quite often I was also beta tester for these products then. And my overall experience is: The more thought-through the concept of the product itself, the more clearly is the manual. Regards, Gerhard ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Maintenance Update downloading
David W. Fenton wrote: On 22 Oct 2009 at 19:56, dhbailey wrote: David W. Fenton wrote: On 22 Oct 2009 at 6:35, dhbailey wrote: There's no way to know Why don't you meditate on that one -- treat it as your koan for the day. Because I've got better things to do, such as figure out how to piss you off in these messages. :-) Piss me off? You're my entertainment for the day! There's nothing like the smell of righteous indignation in the morning! Happy to be of service -- and happy to replace the smell of napalm with righteous indignation. -- David H. Bailey dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Maintenance Update downloading question
I suggested this when I worked at MM, but P2P has such a bad rap...despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary, the perception of P2P in the world is that it's only good for violating copyright. On Oct 22, 2009, at 5:46 PM, Gerhard Torges wrote: Am 22.10.2009 um 01:29 schrieb Christopher Smith: It downloaded about a hundred times faster for me next day, probably because I had about a hundredth of the peers downloading it at the same time as I had the previous day. Seems like a good candidate for peer-to-peer distribution. ;-) Gerhard ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Allen Fisher Founder and Principal Developer Fisher Art and Technology al...@fisherartandtech.com i...@fisherartandtech.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Maintenance Update downloading
Boys! What did Chris tell you!? :-D On Oct 22, 2009, at 7:12 PM, David W. Fenton wrote: On 22 Oct 2009 at 19:56, dhbailey wrote: David W. Fenton wrote: On 22 Oct 2009 at 6:35, dhbailey wrote: There's no way to know Why don't you meditate on that one -- treat it as your koan for the day. Because I've got better things to do, such as figure out how to piss you off in these messages. :-) Piss me off? You're my entertainment for the day! There's nothing like the smell of righteous indignation in the morning! ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Maintenance Update downloading
On 22 Oct 2009 at 19:56, dhbailey wrote: > David W. Fenton wrote: > > On 22 Oct 2009 at 6:35, dhbailey wrote: > > > >> There's > >> no way to know > > > > Why don't you meditate on that one -- treat it as your koan for the > > day. > > Because I've got better things to do, such as figure out how > to piss you off in these messages. :-) Piss me off? You're my entertainment for the day! There's nothing like the smell of righteous indignation in the morning! -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Maintenance Update downloading
David W. Fenton wrote: On 22 Oct 2009 at 6:35, dhbailey wrote: There's no way to know Why don't you meditate on that one -- treat it as your koan for the day. Because I've got better things to do, such as figure out how to piss you off in these messages. :-) -- David H. Bailey dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Maintenance Update downloading
On 23 Oct 2009 at 0:22, Torges Gerhard wrote: > Am 21.10.2009 um 19:38 schrieb David W. Fenton: > > >> So somehow the figured it out -- something which Mac users > >> have been able to do for a long time, so it remains a murky > >> question as to why Windows users had to wait so long. > > > > David, it's not murky at all. It's very, very likely a reliance on > > 3rd-party tools that make the job of creating the help files easier > > that caused the problem. > > Do you repair your watch with a sledge hammer? > Do you light a cigeratte with a flare gun? Do you really have any conception at all of what's involved in managing the documentation for an application as complex as Finale? It's not a triviality. > If the tools they use produce rubbish the should use other tools. > It's really as simple as that. It's very easy to be a critic. It's much, much harder to actually accomplish something. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Maintenance Update downloading
On 22 Oct 2009 at 6:35, dhbailey wrote: > There's > no way to know Why don't you meditate on that one -- treat it as your koan for the day. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: Re(2): [Finale] Maintenance Update downloading
On Oct 22, 2009, at 4:05 PM, Leigh Daniels wrote: I told him I would pay full price again just for Transfer>Layout! Doesn't surprise me. Me too. Chuck **Leigh On Thu, Oct 22, 2009, dhbailey wrote: How much did Tobias charge for the last update to the tools, the one to work with Fin2009? Perhaps we all need to let Tobias know that we will be willing to pay more for the update to TGTools, since so many of us find them indispensable while working with Finale. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Chuck Israels 230 North Garden Terrace Bellingham, WA 98225-5836 phone (360) 671-3402 fax (360) 676-6055 www.chuckisraels.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re(2): [Finale] Maintenance Update downloading
I told him I would pay full price again just for Transfer>Layout! **Leigh On Thu, Oct 22, 2009, dhbailey wrote: >How much did Tobias charge for the last update to the tools, >the one to work with Fin2009? Perhaps we all need to let >Tobias know that we will be willing to pay more for the >update to TGTools, since so many of us find them >indispensable while working with Finale. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Maintenance Update downloading question
Am 22.10.2009 um 01:29 schrieb Christopher Smith: It downloaded about a hundred times faster for me next day, probably because I had about a hundredth of the peers downloading it at the same time as I had the previous day. Seems like a good candidate for peer-to-peer distribution. ;-) Gerhard ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Maintenance Update downloading question
Am 22.10.2009 um 01:29 schrieb Christopher Smith: It downloaded about a hundred times faster for me next day, probably because I had about a hundredth of the peers downloading it at the same time as I had the previous day. Seems like a good candidaten for peer-to-peer distribution. ;-) Gerhard ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Maintenance Update downloading
Carl Dershem wrote: Allen Fisher wrote: This is a bad example. Apple controls all the pieces here, MM cannot force Tobias to spend time updating the full version of TGTools. Force? No. Entice? Probably. cd On Oct 21, 2009, at 8:48 PM, Eric Dannewitz wrote: Again, this points to MakeMusic. One of their most important plugin developers (or the best one IMHO) doesn't have his plugins ready for the release of program? That would be like Apple shipping a new iPod and having iTunes not work fully with it. They could even go out of their way to make it easy for Tobias to update the plug-ins by providing him with insider information on the changes to the programming code. There's no way to know whether they did or not. How much did Tobias charge for the last update to the tools, the one to work with Fin2009? Perhaps we all need to let Tobias know that we will be willing to pay more for the update to TGTools, since so many of us find them indispensable while working with Finale. -- David H. Bailey dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Maintenance Update downloading
Am 21.10.2009 um 22:01 schrieb dhbailey: Now I just hope my mother doesn't find out who wrote all over her wall! Blame David. ;-) Gerhard ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Maintenance Update downloading
Am 21.10.2009 um 21:40 schrieb David Smith: Why did we name them ALL David!? I can't remember, Dave! David ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Maintenance Update downloading
Am 21.10.2009 um 19:38 schrieb David W. Fenton: So somehow the figured it out -- something which Mac users have been able to do for a long time, so it remains a murky question as to why Windows users had to wait so long. David, it's not murky at all. It's very, very likely a reliance on 3rd-party tools that make the job of creating the help files easier that caused the problem. Do you repair your watch with a sledge hammer? Do you light a cigeratte with a flare gun? If the tools they use produce rubbish the should use other tools. It's really as simple as that. Gerhard ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Maintenance Update downloading
Allen Fisher wrote: This is a bad example. Apple controls all the pieces here, MM cannot force Tobias to spend time updating the full version of TGTools. On Oct 21, 2009, at 8:48 PM, Eric Dannewitz wrote: Again, this points to MakeMusic. One of their most important plugin developers (or the best one IMHO) doesn't have his plugins ready for the release of program? That would be like Apple shipping a new iPod and having iTunes not work fully with it. That assumes that MakeMusic provided Tobias with all the code hooks necessary to get his plug-ins to work. Didn't someone (Robert Patterson?) complain a couple of versions ago that MakeMusic had significantly changed the plug-in development kit, reducing the amount of important information in it? I wish I had paid more attention at the time. -- David H. Bailey dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Maintenance Update downloading
Allen Fisher wrote: This is a bad example. Apple controls all the pieces here, MM cannot force Tobias to spend time updating the full version of TGTools. Force? No. Entice? Probably. cd On Oct 21, 2009, at 8:48 PM, Eric Dannewitz wrote: Again, this points to MakeMusic. One of their most important plugin developers (or the best one IMHO) doesn't have his plugins ready for the release of program? That would be like Apple shipping a new iPod and having iTunes not work fully with it. -- http://www.livejournal.com/users/dershem/# http://members.cox.net/dershem ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Maintenance Update downloading
This is a bad example. Apple controls all the pieces here, MM cannot force Tobias to spend time updating the full version of TGTools. On Oct 21, 2009, at 8:48 PM, Eric Dannewitz wrote: Again, this points to MakeMusic. One of their most important plugin developers (or the best one IMHO) doesn't have his plugins ready for the release of program? That would be like Apple shipping a new iPod and having iTunes not work fully with it. Allen Fisher Founder and Principal Developer Fisher Art and Technology al...@fisherartandtech.com i...@fisherartandtech.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Maintenance Update downloading question
David W. Fenton wrote: On 21 Oct 2009 at 19:10, Ray Horton wrote: Should I run the huge Tuesday update or DL the new, lean, Thursday update and run it instead? Or are they the same file? I would say that it's 99.99% sure that it's the same file, and the only difference in the download time is either that fewer people were attempting the download on Tuesday, or that MM contracted for some help in serving up the downloads (such as using Akamai's load- balancing services). I think it's highly improbable that the later update is a smaller file. I think that if it were a different file, there would have been notification that MM had updated it. Same file. It downloaded about a hundred times faster for me next day, probably because I had about a hundredth of the peers downloading it at the same time as I had the previous day. Christopher --- Thanks David and Christopher. I'll install it with bells on. RBH ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Maintenance Update downloading
On Oct 21, 2009, at 3:20 PM, David W. Fenton wrote: Speaking of TGTools, it is rather shocking that MakeMusic would not work with Tobias to ensure that his plugin works properly with Finale. And what makes you think they haven't? My guess is that Tobias is a beta tester so he knows what's going on. I'd also guess that as one of the most important plugin developers he has no trouble getting through to the programming team to discuss issues. If the problems haven't been fixed, that tells me: 1. the problems are quite difficult, OR 2. Tobias has not given it full attention yet. 3. both (#2 could be triggered by #1, for instance) I'm not saying any of these alternatives are the case, but I don't see that it's proper to blame MM for Tobias's lack of an updated release. It took months for an update to work with the new dynamics (as I recall) and people are still waiting for an update to get the Chords working properly again. I don't see what the justification is for blaming MM for this. Even if Tobias only got the new version at the same time everyone else did, at that point, it's all on him to revise his plugin to work with the new version. Clearly, MM can help him to make the process as smooth as possible, but at a certain point, updating the plugin is the responsibility of the plugin developer, not of MM. Obviously, in order to maintain an active stable of plugin developers MM has to pay attention to them and try not to introduce changes into Finale that break existing plugins any more than is necessary. But have we heard from any plugin developers that MM has been doing this? Perhaps we wouldn't, as they can't badmouth MM without possibly endangering their insider access. Again, this points to MakeMusic. One of their most important plugin developers (or the best one IMHO) doesn't have his plugins ready for the release of program? That would be like Apple shipping a new iPod and having iTunes not work fully with it. Seems like there is no incentive for Tobias to update his plugins and/ or there was no communication between him and MM that the next version of Finale was going to break his plugin. Again.The same thing happened for Finale 2009, and there was about 5 or 6 months until Tobias got around to fixing it for the full version of TGTools. I think the Align/ Move worked in the limited bundle that was included in Finale 2009. You'd think that MakeMusic would pay attention to detail... ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Maintenance Update downloading question
On Wed Oct 21, at WednesdayOct 21 7:10 PM, Ray Horton wrote: Dean M. Estabrook wrote: Breaking News! I just downloaded the updater and completed the installation in about 6 min. Things are looking up .. Dean O OK - here's a question for all of you folks that seem to know what goes on inside his magic metal box: I DL'd the update the first day - took quite a long time, but I was leaving home anyway, no problem. I haven't run the update yet, as I was in the middle of a touchy project for today. Should I run the huge Tuesday update or DL the new, lean, Thursday update and run it instead? Or are they the same file? Same file. It downloaded about a hundred times faster for me next day, probably because I had about a hundredth of the peers downloading it at the same time as I had the previous day. Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Maintenance Update downloading question
On 21 Oct 2009 at 19:10, Ray Horton wrote: > Should I run the huge Tuesday update or DL the new, lean, Thursday > update and run it instead? Or are they the same file? I would say that it's 99.99% sure that it's the same file, and the only difference in the download time is either that fewer people were attempting the download on Tuesday, or that MM contracted for some help in serving up the downloads (such as using Akamai's load- balancing services). I think it's highly improbable that the later update is a smaller file. I think that if it were a different file, there would have been notification that MM had updated it. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Maintenance Update downloading question
Dean M. Estabrook wrote: Breaking News! I just downloaded the updater and completed the installation in about 6 min. Things are looking up .. Dean O OK - here's a question for all of you folks that seem to know what goes on inside his magic metal box: I DL'd the update the first day - took quite a long time, but I was leaving home anyway, no problem. I haven't run the update yet, as I was in the middle of a touchy project for today. Should I run the huge Tuesday update or DL the new, lean, Thursday update and run it instead? Or are they the same file? RBH ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Maintenance Update downloading
Speaking of which, I have tried (gently) rattling Tobias' cage about updating the plugins that are broken in 2010. Can I get a few others to communicate with him? I am eagerly awaiting his update, so that 2010 can become fully functional for me. Thanks to anyone who can take the trouble to do this. Chuck On Oct 21, 2009, at 2:44 PM, Eric Dannewitz wrote: Speaking of TGTools, it is rather shocking that MakeMusic would not work with Tobias to ensure that his plugin works properly with Finale. It took months for an update to work with the new dynamics (as I recall) and people are still waiting for an update to get the Chords working properly again. I for one wish MakeMusic would put in a "save to previous version" feature to at least make sure people with in the last version (2009) can read files created with the new version. Sibelius seems to offer this. But then again, can Sibelius do flash cards? Didn't think so. On Oct 21, 2009, at 2:37 PM, Christopher Smith wrote: Hmm, more to the point, I think, is WHO is making these decisions? When the programmers make them, we get things like TG Tools, the Patterson suite, and Human Playback. When the marketing team makes them, we get a little squirmy, because it seems like spending effort for something WE don't use is wasted effort, and the new features don't work well enough to be used. Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Chuck Israels 230 North Garden Terrace Bellingham, WA 98225-5836 phone (360) 671-3402 fax (360) 676-6055 www.chuckisraels.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Maintenance Update downloading
Breaking News! I just downloaded the updater and completed the installation in about 6 min. Things are looking up .. Dean On Oct 21, 2009, at 3:12 PM, David W. Fenton wrote: On 21 Oct 2009 at 17:37, Christopher Smith wrote: On Wed Oct 21, at WednesdayOct 21 4:59 PM, David W. Fenton wrote: In the real world, however, choices have to be made, and I'm certain nobody is happy about having to make these triage decisions. Hmm, more to the point, I think, is WHO is making these decisions? When the programmers make them, we get things like TG Tools, the Patterson suite, and Human Playback. When the marketing team makes them, we get a little squirmy, because it seems like spending effort for something WE don't use is wasted effort, and the new features don't work well enough to be used. It's the age-old conflict between the programmers and the marketers. If the latter weren't out there promoting the product, working with users and figuring out what people need/want and what is going to be most lucrative in the market as a whole, the programmers wouldn't have anything to do. On the other hand, without the programmers, the marketers wouldn't have anything to sell. My outside view of the situation (which is purely speculative) is that both parties are doing their best, but because of the management decision several years ago to start yearly updates (before about Finale 97 weren't the updates every couple of years or so?) they are now locked in a cycle that doesn't allow them the time to fix the accumulated problems. New or revised features have to be implemented in order to sell the program, and those only exacerbate the problems already present in the codebase. I don't know how you get out of this kind of death spiral, absent a sugar daddy to come in and finance a major project to fix the problems. And, of course, I could be completely wrong about all of this because I don't have any insider information about what's actually going on a MM. But it seems to me to be plausible and doesn't suggest that anybody is acting in bad faith, just that they are in a situation that makes it hard to satisfy all the competing demands on them. Of course, one can always blame management... -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Canto ergo sum And, I'd rather be composing than decomposing Dean M. Estabrook http://deanestabrook.googlepages.com/home ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Maintenance Update downloading
I don't mean to be acting as an apologist for MakeMusic, but I just don't think that people are asking reasonable questions here. On 21 Oct 2009 at 14:44, Eric Dannewitz wrote: > Speaking of TGTools, it is rather shocking that MakeMusic would not work > with Tobias to ensure that his plugin works properly with Finale. And what makes you think they haven't? My guess is that Tobias is a beta tester so he knows what's going on. I'd also guess that as one of the most important plugin developers he has no trouble getting through to the programming team to discuss issues. If the problems haven't been fixed, that tells me: 1. the problems are quite difficult, OR 2. Tobias has not given it full attention yet. 3. both (#2 could be triggered by #1, for instance) I'm not saying any of these alternatives are the case, but I don't see that it's proper to blame MM for Tobias's lack of an updated release. > It took > months for an update to work with the new dynamics (as I recall) and > people are still waiting for an update to get the Chords working properly > again. I don't see what the justification is for blaming MM for this. Even if Tobias only got the new version at the same time everyone else did, at that point, it's all on him to revise his plugin to work with the new version. Clearly, MM can help him to make the process as smooth as possible, but at a certain point, updating the plugin is the responsibility of the plugin developer, not of MM. Obviously, in order to maintain an active stable of plugin developers MM has to pay attention to them and try not to introduce changes into Finale that break existing plugins any more than is necessary. But have we heard from any plugin developers that MM has been doing this? Perhaps we wouldn't, as they can't badmouth MM without possibly endangering their insider access. > I for one wish MakeMusic would put in a "save to previous version" > feature to at least make sure people with in the last version (2009) can > read files created with the new version. Sibelius seems to offer this. I am sure that if implementing this were easy without major and extensive changes to the codebase, MM would implement it. Sibelius has one major advantage over MM and that is that their codebase is about a decade younger than MM's and probably has a lot less cruft in it to handle legacy issues. As a non-programmer, you might be surprised at how much a difference that can make. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Maintenance Update downloading
On 21 Oct 2009 at 17:37, Christopher Smith wrote: > On Wed Oct 21, at WednesdayOct 21 4:59 PM, David W. Fenton wrote: > > > In the real world, however, choices have to be made, and I'm certain > > nobody is happy about having to make these triage decisions. > > Hmm, more to the point, I think, is WHO is making these decisions? > When the programmers make them, we get things like TG Tools, the > Patterson suite, and Human Playback. When the marketing team makes > them, we get a little squirmy, because it seems like spending effort > for something WE don't use is wasted effort, and the new features > don't work well enough to be used. It's the age-old conflict between the programmers and the marketers. If the latter weren't out there promoting the product, working with users and figuring out what people need/want and what is going to be most lucrative in the market as a whole, the programmers wouldn't have anything to do. On the other hand, without the programmers, the marketers wouldn't have anything to sell. My outside view of the situation (which is purely speculative) is that both parties are doing their best, but because of the management decision several years ago to start yearly updates (before about Finale 97 weren't the updates every couple of years or so?) they are now locked in a cycle that doesn't allow them the time to fix the accumulated problems. New or revised features have to be implemented in order to sell the program, and those only exacerbate the problems already present in the codebase. I don't know how you get out of this kind of death spiral, absent a sugar daddy to come in and finance a major project to fix the problems. And, of course, I could be completely wrong about all of this because I don't have any insider information about what's actually going on a MM. But it seems to me to be plausible and doesn't suggest that anybody is acting in bad faith, just that they are in a situation that makes it hard to satisfy all the competing demands on them. Of course, one can always blame management... -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Maintenance Update downloading
Since version 4, released in 2005, Sibelius has included a worksheet creator. Flash cards are included in this. 2009/10/22 Eric Dannewitz > > > But then again, can Sibelius do flash cards? Didn't think so. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Maintenance Update downloading
On Wed Oct 21, at WednesdayOct 21 4:59 PM, David W. Fenton wrote: And questioning the integrity and honesty of the only people who can fix Finale seems to me to be quite counterproductive (you think they don't read the list? Maybe they have stopped after being constantly pilloried as liars by people like you). Sorry forgot this part. Some of what comes off as dishonesty on the part of MakeMusic is just the way all software companies seem to work. I think they might want rethink parts of their way of working. For example we see the ridiculous web of questions we have to click around and type into on their tech support page as actively discouraging asking technical questions. It may or may not be true, but it comes off like they don't want to hear about our problems. I got a response that I read as evasive from one of the tech support reps once, and I called her on it. I wrote back and pointed out exactly the places in her response that I read as dodging, hedging and condescending and why, and said that I was getting this kind of tone consistently, not just from her, from other reps when I wrote it. I pointed out that I was a long time user with a fair bit of experience and a large number of students, and if there was a bug, just to say, "Right! A bug! It's on the list now." with maybe a workaround if I needed one. I noticed a month or two later when I was asking questions again that the tone (of a different rep) had tightened up quite a bit. He didn't use the word "bug" (may have been expecting too much!) but he acknowledged the problem and said it was high priority. I wonder if my complaint had changed things, but the support staff are much more straight-talking than they used to be. That comes off as honest. Christopher (sorry for all the verbosity, but I'm at home recovering from flu and have itchy typing fingers.) ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Maintenance Update downloading
Speaking of TGTools, it is rather shocking that MakeMusic would not work with Tobias to ensure that his plugin works properly with Finale. It took months for an update to work with the new dynamics (as I recall) and people are still waiting for an update to get the Chords working properly again. I for one wish MakeMusic would put in a "save to previous version" feature to at least make sure people with in the last version (2009) can read files created with the new version. Sibelius seems to offer this. But then again, can Sibelius do flash cards? Didn't think so. On Oct 21, 2009, at 2:37 PM, Christopher Smith wrote: Hmm, more to the point, I think, is WHO is making these decisions? When the programmers make them, we get things like TG Tools, the Patterson suite, and Human Playback. When the marketing team makes them, we get a little squirmy, because it seems like spending effort for something WE don't use is wasted effort, and the new features don't work well enough to be used. Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Maintenance Update downloading
On Wed Oct 21, at WednesdayOct 21 4:59 PM, David W. Fenton wrote: In the real world, however, choices have to be made, and I'm certain nobody is happy about having to make these triage decisions. Hmm, more to the point, I think, is WHO is making these decisions? When the programmers make them, we get things like TG Tools, the Patterson suite, and Human Playback. When the marketing team makes them, we get a little squirmy, because it seems like spending effort for something WE don't use is wasted effort, and the new features don't work well enough to be used. Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Maintenance Update downloading
On 21 Oct 2009 at 15:31, dhbailey wrote: > I eagerly await your lambasting Henry Howey for his comment > agreeing with my contention that we're all unpaid beta > testers only he went one step further and said it was > fundamentally dishonest. I am preparing a reply right now explaining why it's an unreasonable position to take, and an unfair accusation. I just don't understand what you think you're accomplishing by attributing to those working at MM nothing but bad intentions. We all know what the road to hell is paved with, but it makes a difference to me if people are acting in good faith. And questioning the integrity and honesty of the only people who can fix Finale seems to me to be quite counterproductive (you think they don't read the list? Maybe they have stopped after being constantly pilloried as liars by people like you). Last of all, I can tell you as a computer programmer that nobody is more concerned about the remaining bugs than the people who are doing the programming. They know far more than you do exactly what the problems are and how bad they are for everyone, and I am absolutely certain the folks working in the guts of Finale would love to be able to magically fix it all so it's just perfect and works exactly the way you want it. In the real world, however, choices have to be made, and I'm certain nobody is happy about having to make these triage decisions. But you can keep whining about not getting your magic ponies all you want. All that will happen is that the people who can actually fix the problems you are encountering will ignore you. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Maintenance Update downloading
I'm sitting in my corner now and writing on the wall 100 times 'I will play nice with others.' Now I just hope my mother doesn't find out who wrote all over her wall! David "la-la-la" Bailey Christopher Smith wrote: Davids... Don't make me come back there! Are we going to have to separate you? Your father will hear about this if you don't stop and play nice. Why did we name them ALL David!? Sincerely, The lady from the Dr. Seuss book who had 23 sons and named them all Dave On Wed Oct 21, at WednesdayOct 21 3:31 PM, dhbailey wrote: David W. Fenton wrote: On 21 Oct 2009 at 7:47, dhbailey wrote: So somehow the figured it out -- something which Mac users have been able to do for a long time, so it remains a murky question as to why Windows users had to wait so long. David, it's not murky at all. It's very, very likely a reliance on 3rd-party tools that make the job of creating the help files easier that caused the problem. Sticking your fingers in your ears and screaming "la-la-la" is not a very adult way to respond to this kind of thing. I certainly am doing that. I eagerly await your lambasting Henry Howey for his comment agreeing with my contention that we're all unpaid beta testers only he went one step further and said it was fundamentally dishonest. la-la-la I can't hear you. :-) ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale -- David H. Bailey dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Maintenance Update downloading
Davids... Don't make me come back there! Are we going to have to separate you? Your father will hear about this if you don't stop and play nice. Why did we name them ALL David!? Sincerely, The lady from the Dr. Seuss book who had 23 sons and named them all Dave On Wed Oct 21, at WednesdayOct 21 3:31 PM, dhbailey wrote: David W. Fenton wrote: On 21 Oct 2009 at 7:47, dhbailey wrote: So somehow the figured it out -- something which Mac users have been able to do for a long time, so it remains a murky question as to why Windows users had to wait so long. David, it's not murky at all. It's very, very likely a reliance on 3rd-party tools that make the job of creating the help files easier that caused the problem. Sticking your fingers in your ears and screaming "la-la-la" is not a very adult way to respond to this kind of thing. I certainly am doing that. I eagerly await your lambasting Henry Howey for his comment agreeing with my contention that we're all unpaid beta testers only he went one step further and said it was fundamentally dishonest. la-la-la I can't hear you. :-) ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Maintenance Update downloading
David W. Fenton wrote: On 21 Oct 2009 at 7:47, dhbailey wrote: So somehow the figured it out -- something which Mac users have been able to do for a long time, so it remains a murky question as to why Windows users had to wait so long. David, it's not murky at all. It's very, very likely a reliance on 3rd-party tools that make the job of creating the help files easier that caused the problem. Sticking your fingers in your ears and screaming "la-la-la" is not a very adult way to respond to this kind of thing. I certainly am doing that. I eagerly await your lambasting Henry Howey for his comment agreeing with my contention that we're all unpaid beta testers only he went one step further and said it was fundamentally dishonest. la-la-la I can't hear you. :-) -- David H. Bailey dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Maintenance Update downloading
On Oct 21, 2009, at 10:38 AM, David W. Fenton wrote: Sticking your fingers in your ears and screaming "la-la-la" is not a very adult way to respond to this kind of thing. I kinda thought he looked cute doing that! Chuck Chuck Israels 230 North Garden Terrace Bellingham, WA 98225-5836 phone (360) 671-3402 fax (360) 676-6055 www.chuckisraels.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Maintenance Update downloading
On 21 Oct 2009 at 7:47, dhbailey wrote: > So somehow the figured it out -- something which Mac users > have been able to do for a long time, so it remains a murky > question as to why Windows users had to wait so long. David, it's not murky at all. It's very, very likely a reliance on 3rd-party tools that make the job of creating the help files easier that caused the problem. Sticking your fingers in your ears and screaming "la-la-la" is not a very adult way to respond to this kind of thing. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Maintenance Update downloading
David W. Fenton wrote: On 20 Oct 2009 at 19:39, dhbailey wrote: in the list of fixes, the claim is made that the User Manual now opens in the default browser. If that's true, it'll be a long-standing gripe resolved. And makes me wonder why it couldn't have been done a couple of versions ago, when they went to HTML help files in the first place. I think a number of us have offered plausible explanations more than once. If an application developer chooses a set of tools to produce cross-platform help files, and the tools are limited in what they can do in regard to browser-agnosticism, then the developer can end up with a situation like that which so many have complained about for so long. If MM didn't use such tools, I would guess that they would likely have been unable to produce the documentation as quickly or as accurately. Obviously, the development team made the determination based on their knowledge of all the trade-offs involved that it was better to cause the minor annoyance of opening in one particular browser on Windows instead of using the default browser than it was to pay whatever the price would be to avoid that annoyance. You don't know what the trade-offs involved were, so you can't really judge if it was the best decision. My guess is that it was the best they could do with their limited resources. It's just too bad they couldn't have made whatever adjustment was necessary to avoid the problem much, much sooner. The download completed (after 5 hours!) and installed, and indeed the readme file was right -- now the User Manual opens in the default browser. So somehow the figured it out -- something which Mac users have been able to do for a long time, so it remains a murky question as to why Windows users had to wait so long. In any event at least one long-standing complaint has been answered for this user. -- David H. Bailey dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Maintenance Update downloading
funny how that works. wait a day and it only takes 15min... 8-) ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Maintenance Update downloading
On 20 Oct 2009 at 19:39, dhbailey wrote: > in the list of fixes, the claim is made that the User > Manual now opens in the default browser. If that's true, > it'll be a long-standing gripe resolved. And makes me > wonder why it couldn't have been done a couple of versions > ago, when they went to HTML help files in the first place. I think a number of us have offered plausible explanations more than once. If an application developer chooses a set of tools to produce cross-platform help files, and the tools are limited in what they can do in regard to browser-agnosticism, then the developer can end up with a situation like that which so many have complained about for so long. If MM didn't use such tools, I would guess that they would likely have been unable to produce the documentation as quickly or as accurately. Obviously, the development team made the determination based on their knowledge of all the trade-offs involved that it was better to cause the minor annoyance of opening in one particular browser on Windows instead of using the default browser than it was to pay whatever the price would be to avoid that annoyance. You don't know what the trade-offs involved were, so you can't really judge if it was the best decision. My guess is that it was the best they could do with their limited resources. It's just too bad they couldn't have made whatever adjustment was necessary to avoid the problem much, much sooner. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Maintenance Update downloading
Michael Greensill wrote: Mine is currently telling me it will take 6 1/2 hours. I too have given up. I'll miss those flash cards though. :) Mike G. www.mikegreensill.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Well, it's been over 4 hours and my download is almost done. I can't wait to get at those flash cards! ;-) It's impossible for me as a non-programmer to comment on whether the fixes that are listed are minor or not, but at least in the list of fixes, the claim is made that the User Manual now opens in the default browser. If that's true, it'll be a long-standing gripe resolved. And makes me wonder why it couldn't have been done a couple of versions ago, when they went to HTML help files in the first place. But I'll be happy if it's true now. After all this time, it's at 95% -- please don't let the power go out now! :-) -- David H. Bailey dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Maintenance Update downloading
Crap, my download just aborted at 70% complete after a couple of slow hours. Maybe tonight when everyone else in my hemisphere is asleep... C On Tue Oct 20, at TuesdayOct 20 2:45 PM, Michael Greensill wrote: Mine is currently telling me it will take 6 1/2 hours. I too have given up. I'll miss those flash cards though. :) Mike G. www.mikegreensill.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] Maintenance Update downloading
Mine is currently telling me it will take 6 1/2 hours. I too have given up. I'll miss those flash cards though. :) Mike G. www.mikegreensill.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
