Re: [Finale] Garritan [was: Finale/Sibelius as, sequencer/sampler?]
David W. Fenton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 7 Oct 2006 at 13:40, Richard Smith wrote: Some really good music by some respected composers is being written for wind ensemble and many composition students are being advised that the best way to hear one's music performed is to write for band, not orchestra. Are we talking about bands or wind ensemble? Maybe I'm mistaken, but I thought there was a difference. In so far as the question concerns what instruments they contain, there is a spectrum; the categories have very fuzzy boundaries, though I suppose they are useful in catalogues. The nearest I can get to the 20th-21st C. concept of a band is that it is a group with some flexibility of instrumentation, in which those present have cues that they play in absence of the preferred instrument. You ought not to do that with the Mozart Gran Partita (K361)* or the Strauss works, though even with the latter, a discreet tuba player makes a good substitute for a contrabassoon. * I never yet heard a contrabassoon with a decent pizzicato. If you just want to write music and hear it played, without worrying about making a living from it, you get to know lots of good amateurs, and this category is rather better stocked with wind and brass than with strings, in my experience. My most recent four works are for |0,2,3+basset,2|4000|cb (companion piece to K361), |2(pic),1,1+bc,1|2000|vibraphone, ||0331|, |2+pic,2+ca,2+bc,2+cfg|3000|. The first two have had satisfactory semi-public performances this year, with sizeable invited audiences; the third and fourth get their premières next Saturday, with quality of performance still somewhat in the balance. -- Ken Moore ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Garritan [was: Finale/Sibelius as, sequencer/sampler?
John Howell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: OK, I just looked it up in A Practical Guide to Percussion Terminology by Russ Girsberger, and it's just as complicated as I thought it would be. Glöckchen: tubular bells; chimes Glocke: bell Glocken: chimes Glockenartig: like a bell; bell-like Glockenplatten: bell plates Glockenspiel: Keyboard percussion instrument with steel or aluminum bars. In printed music, it may refer to a Bell Lyra, as used in German military music, or Orchestra Bells, as used in concert music. Glockenspiel à clavier: (Fr.) keyboard glockenspiel Glockenspiel mit tasten: keyboard glockenspiel. According to the NMA score, Mozart called it strumento d'acciaio, with (glockenspiel) after it, but the latter possibly an editor's added translation. Also a keyed glockenspiel is jeu de timbres as required for Turangalila. -- Ken Moore ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Garritan [was: Finale/Sibelius as, sequencer/sampler?]
At 12:13 PM +0100 10/9/06, Ken Moore wrote: If you just want to write music and hear it played, without worrying about making a living from it, you get to know lots of good amateurs, and this category is rather better stocked with wind and brass than with strings, in my experience. Ken makes a rather nice point in that sentence, and one that truly shows how fuzzy the absolutist definitions can become. In particular, the use of strings in ensembles which are clearly bands, are called bands, and play literature intended for bands (as well, quite often, as special arrangements, of course). Many bands (or wind ensembles) include a string bass as a matter of course. How composers have written for and notated those parts varies. While inclusion of a contrabass was not originally done for this reason, it is almost a necessity for compositions or arrangements written in swing style, just as electric bass guitar is almost a necessity for those written in rock style--for charts, in other words, based on a rhythm section. Tubas have a rather poor pizzicato, even though we try hard!!! The U.S. Air Force Band, where I served from 1957-1961, used a section of cellos in addition to the string bass, adding a bit of richness to the tenor range normally reserved to baritones and euphoniums in band scoring and giving a contrasting tone quality. I have no idea who originated that idea or when, or whether it is still true. This is rather different, but for a number of years now our Community String Orchestra has joined our Community Band for our two town service programs during the year, an annual Holiday Pops Concert in December and an annual Independence Day Concert on July 4th. At first we functioned as a separate ensemble, but more and more String Paks have been purchased over the years, more and more Paks of string parts have been arranged by one or another of us, and even string-based arrangements enhanced by the use of band instruments have been created. I don't know whether we're unique in this, or whether this is a trend, but I do know that more and more of the specialty arrangements suitable for these Holidays are having String Paks added to them. Some pieces which have both band and orchestra arrangements can be combined (Sleigh Ride is one), and others can be adapted (the orchestral arrangement of Victory At Sea includes at least one song omitted from the band arrangement), but sax and euphonium parts must be created. And I have just finished a medley of two Christmans songs for two vocal soloists, band, and strings, in which the strings function as a 4th section of the band (but it's still a band and not an orchestra). John -- John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Garritan [was: Finale/Sibelius as, sequencer/sampler?
On Oct 9, 2006, at 12:25 PM, Ken Moore wrote: Also a keyed glockenspiel is jeu de timbres as required for Turangalila. Actually, no. Jeu de timbres means literally set of chimes and is the standard French term for the regular glockenspiel. Messiaen designates the keyboard glockenspiel as glockenspiel à clavier. FWIW, there is also a keyboard xylophone, required by Bartòk for _Bluebeard's Castle_. Andrew Stiller Kallisti Music Press http://home.netcom.com/~kallisti/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Garritan [was: Finale/Sibelius as, sequencer/sampler?]
On Oct 9, 2006, at 1:38 PM, John Howell wrote: Ken makes a rather nice point in that sentence, and one that truly shows how fuzzy the absolutist definitions can become. In particular, the use of strings in ensembles which are clearly bands, are called bands, and play literature intended for bands (as well, quite often, as special arrangements, of course). You have to remember that band was the original English word for ensemble, and was used thus broadly right up into the early 20th c. All the confusion drops away once you realize that band now designates any type of ensemble that has no other name: rock band, jazz band, concert-and-marching band--it's all one. Andrew Stiller Kallisti Music Press http://home.netcom.com/~kallisti/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Garritan [was: Finale/Sibelius as sequencer/sampler?]
Chuck Israels wrote: Interesting that celeste is not listed, yet that's what I always hear in Magic Flute performances and recordings. Seems OK to my ears. Chuck No, it's not a celeste, which has softer bars, a damper, and a prominent resonator-generated _Nachklang_. The keyboard glockenspiel has a brighter -- if not brasher -- tone, may use actual bells instead of bars, and has a decidedly mechanical character. You might think of the celeste as a romantic-era re-imagining of the glockenspiel, but it's not really an adequate replacement. European opera houses either own or rent a keyboard glockenspiel for performances of Zauberflöte, very much like the Cimbasso require for some Verdi. DJW ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Garritan [was: Finale/Sibelius as sequencer/sampler?]
This table is problematic in that it doesn't distinguish between an instrument with the bars laid-out like a keyboard and an instrument actually played via a keyboard. The modern orchestral bells/glockenspiel/(and their band world near-equivalent, the bell lyra) is laid-out like a keyboard (but in German-speaking countries, not always in the 7+5 Halberstadt arrangement) and played with mallets, and is used in some important repertoire: Steve Reich and Morton Feldman, for example. John Howell wrote: On the contrary, three of the terms mean a keyboard instrument as the single or one possible meaning. -Cut- OK, I just looked it up in A Practical Guide to Percussion Terminology by Russ Girsberger, and it's just as complicated as I thought it would be. Glöckchen: tubular bells; chimes Glocke: bell Glocken: chimes Glockenartig: like a bell; bell-like Glockenplatten: bell plates Glockenspiel: Keyboard percussion instrument with steel or aluminum bars. In printed music, it may refer to a Bell Lyra, as used in German military music, or Orchestra Bells, as used in concert music. Glockenspiel à clavier: (Fr.) keyboard glockenspiel Glockenspiel mit tasten: keyboard glockenspiel. Whew! John ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Garritan [was: Finale/Sibelius as sequencer/sampler?]
David W. Fenton wrote: On 7 Oct 2006 at 13:40, Richard Smith wrote: Some really good music by some respected composers is being written for wind ensemble and many composition students are being advised that the best way to hear one's music performed is to write for band, not orchestra. Are we talking about bands or wind ensemble? Maybe I'm mistaken, but I thought there was a difference. There is a difference -- and there are far more bands (school, college, community, professional and military) than there are wind ensembles (some collegiate and professional with a few amateur wind ensembles). -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Garritan [was: Finale/Sibelius as sequencer/sampler?]
David W. Fenton wrote: On 7 Oct 2006 at 15:48, Richard Smith wrote: [quoting me, unattributed, again:] But for samples, wouldn't you want a completely different sound? WHile they can play the same repertory, they amount of section doubling is drastically different between the two ensembles. Or so I've always thought. That's a good point. I suppose I think to much in live terms. Of course doubling could be accomplished by hidden, duplicate staves. Surely not. Using the same patch for multiple staves does not sound anything like a the same number of actual players, each of which has an individual sound. I guess a well-designed chorus controller would give some variety here, which is what chorus was designed for to begin with, but I'm not sure if it would be enough to capture the difference very well. This ties in nicely with the other thread about sequencers and Finale. One sequencer capability which would be nice in Finale for just such occasions would be the ability to have one staff, one sound, duplicated to different tracks with each one time-shifted a few milliseconds and the multiple tracks detuned randomly (so that one track wouldn't always be sharper or flatter) a very minute amount, to get a real section sound with a single sample and a single staff. -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Garritan [was: Finale/Sibelius as sequencer/sampler?]
The saxophone may not be a regular member of the orchestra, but in 20th-century (and beyond) repertoire, it is a frequent guest, more so then certain other instruments such as alto clarinet, or bass flute for instance. I know of well over 2000 pieces of orchestral music which uses saxophone(s) as part of the orchestra (and this is besides all the concertos written for the instrument). Enough work so that most major orchestras do have an on-call saxophonist in their roster. For instance, the Montreal Symphony Orchestra has André Moisan listed as bass clarinet/saxophones. Some composers which you may have heard of who have included saxophones in their works include: John Adams, Lois Andriessen, Béla Bartok, Luciano Berio, Leonard Bernstein, Elliot Carter, John Corigliano, Henry Cowell, Luigi Dallapiccola, David Del Tredici, Maurice Duruflé, Philip Glass, Morton Gould, Percy Grainger , Ferde Grofe, Reynaldo Hahn, John Harbison, Roy Harris, Alan Hovhaness, Vincent d'Indy, Mauricio Kagel, Charles Koechlin, Frank Martin, Jules Massenet, Darius Milhaud, Dimitri Shostakovich, Karlheinz Stockhausen, Igor Stravinsky, Toru Takemitsu, Michael Torke, Ralph Vaughan Williams, Heitor Villa-Lobos.This should be enough to merit that the saxophone be included in any collection of sounds for orchestra.Bernard SavoieOn Oct 06, 2006, at 16:48, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't believe saxophone is included in an orchestra. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orchestra I don't believe that the London Symphony Orchestra has saxophones in it. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Garritan [was: Finale/Sibelius as sequencer/sampler?]
For the difference betw. keyboard glockenspiel and celesta, see my book. Both instruments are required in Messiaen's _Turangalila Symphonie_. Andrew Stiller Kallisti Music Press http://home.netcom.com/~kallisti/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Garritan [was: Finale/Sibelius as sequencer/sampler?]
At 10:36 AM +0200 10/8/06, Daniel Wolf wrote: Chuck Israels wrote: Interesting that celeste is not listed, yet that's what I always hear in Magic Flute performances and recordings. Seems OK to my ears. Chuck No, it's not a celeste, which has softer bars, a damper, and a prominent resonator-generated _Nachklang_. The keyboard glockenspiel has a brighter -- if not brasher -- tone, may use actual bells instead of bars, and has a decidedly mechanical character. You might think of the celeste as a romantic-era re-imagining of the glockenspiel, but it's not really an adequate replacement. European opera houses either own or rent a keyboard glockenspiel for performances of Zauberflöte, very much like the Cimbasso require for some Verdi. So which is considered preferable for Tchaikovsky, or do both versions of the instrument actually still exist? JOHN -- John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Garritan [was: Finale/Sibelius as sequencer/sampler?]
You may be correct, but I certainly read the definitions as meaning glockenspiel with a keyboard. I think the modern tendency to refer to mallet instruments as keyboards simply clouds the issue, whether it is organologically correct or not. John At 10:43 AM +0200 10/8/06, Daniel Wolf wrote: This table is problematic in that it doesn't distinguish between an instrument with the bars laid-out like a keyboard and an instrument actually played via a keyboard. The modern orchestral bells/glockenspiel/(and their band world near-equivalent, the bell lyra) is laid-out like a keyboard (but in German-speaking countries, not always in the 7+5 Halberstadt arrangement) and played with mallets, and is used in some important repertoire: Steve Reich and Morton Feldman, for example. John Howell wrote: On the contrary, three of the terms mean a keyboard instrument as the single or one possible meaning. -Cut- OK, I just looked it up in A Practical Guide to Percussion Terminology by Russ Girsberger, and it's just as complicated as I thought it would be. Glöckchen: tubular bells; chimes Glocke: bell Glocken: chimes Glockenartig: like a bell; bell-like Glockenplatten: bell plates Glockenspiel: Keyboard percussion instrument with steel or aluminum bars. In printed music, it may refer to a Bell Lyra, as used in German military music, or Orchestra Bells, as used in concert music. Glockenspiel à clavier: (Fr.) keyboard glockenspiel Glockenspiel mit tasten: keyboard glockenspiel. Whew! John ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale -- John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Garritan [was: Finale/Sibelius as sequencer/sampler?]
John Howell wrote: So which is considered preferable for Tchaikovsky, or do both versions of the instrument actually still exist? JOHN Tchaikovsky requires a celeste. DJW ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Garritan [was: Finale/Sibelius as sequencer/sampler?]
At 7:46 AM -0400 10/8/06, dhbailey wrote: One sequencer capability which would be nice in Finale for just such occasions would be the ability to have one staff, one sound, duplicated to different tracks with each one time-shifted a few milliseconds and the multiple tracks detuned randomly (so that one track wouldn't always be sharper or flatter) a very minute amount, to get a real section sound with a single sample and a single staff. I can't remember off hand what it was called, but I used a black box with basically those capabilities in the recording studio back in the late '80s. John -- John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Garritan [was: Finale/Sibelius as sequencer/sampler?]
Re: Celeste or Glock (the latter of ANY type) Tchaikovsky - in the two works of his oeuvre which call for such an instrument (Nutcracker and Voyevoda- the op. 78 ballad and not the op. 3 overture) calls specifically for a celeste, not glock, keyboard or lyre. Celeste has a much softer and somewhat mysterious tone than the keyboard glock - which was why Tchaik was so excited by his 'discovery' of the celeste in Paris and demanded absolute secrecy in shipping one back for his use in the Nutcracker. He even - as I recall - specifically required his publisher Jurgensen to NOT disclose the existence of such an instrument to (naming them in particular) Rimsky and Glazunov so the surprise of the special effect of the sound would be a surprise NOT scooped in advance by a competitor in advance of the Nutcracker. Best, Les Les MarsdenFounding Music Director and Conductor, The Mariposa Symphony OrchestraMusic and Mariposa? Ah, Paradise!!! Lecturer on the Arts,University of Californiahttp://arts-mariposa.org/symphony.htmlhttp://www.sierratel.com/mcf/nprc/mso.htmhttp://www.geocities.com/~jbenz/lesbio.html - Original Message - ...So which is considered preferable for Tchaikovsky, or do both versions of the instrument actually still exist?JOHN-- John Susie HowellVirginia Tech Department of MusicBlacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034(mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED])http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Garritan [was: Finale/Sibelius as sequencer/sampler?]
On 7 Oct 2006 at 18:38, Darcy James Argue wrote: On 07 Oct 2006, at 6:32 PM, Richard Smith wrote: You're right, of course. Doubling the same instrument is just a waste of resources. Egg on my face! Not at all. As I mentioned, in Garritan instruments, doubling the player variations (i.e. Flute Player 1 and Flute Player 2) gives authentic unisons and is not a waste of resources at all. David doesn't use Garritan instruments so the comments he made were not applicable to Garritan libraries. Er, my comments are still applicable. A wind ensemble sample set should not have the same characteristics as a band sample set, because the doublings are not going to be the same. In a wind ensemble you're going to double with one or two or three players on a part. In a band you could have TEN or TWENTY. How could the same sample set handle both of those? -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Garritan [was: Finale/Sibelius as sequencer/sampler?]
On 08 Oct 2006, at 7:46 AM, dhbailey wrote: One sequencer capability which would be nice in Finale for just such occasions would be the ability to have one staff, one sound, duplicated to different tracks with each one time-shifted a few milliseconds and the multiple tracks detuned randomly (so that one track wouldn't always be sharper or flatter) a very minute amount, to get a real section sound with a single sample and a single staff. Again, this is something that is very easily done with the VAR1 and VAR2 commands in the Kontakt Player. Cheers, - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://secretsociety.typepad.com Brooklyn, NY ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Garritan [was: Finale/Sibelius as sequencer/sampler?]
On 07 Oct 2006, at 8:35 PM, David W. Fenton wrote: Not at all. As I mentioned, in Garritan instruments, doubling the player variations (i.e. Flute Player 1 and Flute Player 2) gives authentic unisons and is not a waste of resources at all. David doesn't use Garritan instruments so the comments he made were not applicable to Garritan libraries. Er, my comments are still applicable. A wind ensemble sample set should not have the same characteristics as a band sample set, because the doublings are not going to be the same. In a wind ensemble you're going to double with one or two or three players on a part. In a band you could have TEN or TWENTY. How could the same sample set handle both of those? Very easily -- as I said, I expect Garritan Marching and Concert Band to include many player variations for each individual instrument as well as samples of massed flutes, massed clarinets, etc. But if you prefer to roll your own doublings, you'll notice that GPO already includes, e.g., nine different oboe variations. I would expect GMCB to include even more player variations, which can be combined into sections at will. Plus you can use the Kontakt Player's pitch and timing variability controls to build even larger sections. Cheers, - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://secretsociety.typepad.com Brooklyn, NY ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Garritan [was: Finale/Sibelius as sequencer/sampler?]
On 8 Oct 2006 at 16:16, Darcy James Argue wrote: On 08 Oct 2006, at 7:46 AM, dhbailey wrote: One sequencer capability which would be nice in Finale for just such occasions would be the ability to have one staff, one sound, duplicated to different tracks with each one time-shifted a few milliseconds and the multiple tracks detuned randomly (so that one track wouldn't always be sharper or flatter) a very minute amount, to get a real section sound with a single sample and a single staff. Again, this is something that is very easily done with the VAR1 and VAR2 commands in the Kontakt Player. Could you explicate that a bit, please? For instance, in a Finale score, how would you do this? Would it require hidden staves/layers? If so, how would each be set up in terms of these VAR commands? If not, how would it be implemented without hidden staves? The goal is to produce a band sonority, with massed instruments on a part (say 6 each for 3 clarinet parts and the same for trumpets). -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Garritan [was: Finale/Sibelius as sequencer/sampler?]
On 08 Oct 2006, at 5:09 PM, David W. Fenton wrote: Again, this is something that is very easily done with the VAR1 and VAR2 commands in the Kontakt Player. Could you explicate that a bit, please? VAR1 and VAR2 are controllers in the Kontakt Player that allow you to control the amount of randomization given to intonation and timing. Nothing need be done in the Finale score at all -- these are knobs you tweak in the Kontakt Player. The goal is to produce a band sonority, with massed instruments on a part (say 6 each for 3 clarinet parts and the same for trumpets). You would simply load six clarinets (using as many different player variations as possible) into the Kontakt Player, assign them all to the same channel, and then tweak the VAR1 and VAR 2 knobs to your liking. No hidden staves are necessary. Cheers, - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://secretsociety.typepad.com Brooklyn, NY ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] Garritan [was: Finale/Sibelius as sequencer/sampler?]
Does this require the full Kontakt player or will the Finale version (or Sibelius) work. Richard Smtih -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Darcy James Argue Sent: Sunday, October 08, 2006 4:19 PM To: finale@shsu.edu Subject: Re: [Finale] Garritan [was: Finale/Sibelius as sequencer/sampler?] On 08 Oct 2006, at 5:09 PM, David W. Fenton wrote: Again, this is something that is very easily done with the VAR1 and VAR2 commands in the Kontakt Player. Could you explicate that a bit, please? VAR1 and VAR2 are controllers in the Kontakt Player that allow you to control the amount of randomization given to intonation and timing. Nothing need be done in the Finale score at all -- these are knobs you tweak in the Kontakt Player. The goal is to produce a band sonority, with massed instruments on a part (say 6 each for 3 clarinet parts and the same for trumpets). You would simply load six clarinets (using as many different player variations as possible) into the Kontakt Player, assign them all to the same channel, and then tweak the VAR1 and VAR 2 knobs to your liking. No hidden staves are necessary. Cheers, - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://secretsociety.typepad.com Brooklyn, NY ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.407 / Virus Database: 268.13.1/466 - Release Date: 10/7/2006 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.407 / Virus Database: 268.13.1/466 - Release Date: 10/7/2006 ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Garritan [was: Finale/Sibelius as sequencer/sampler?]
Richard, Just to clarify the terminology: there is no such thing as the full Kontakt player. There's Kontakt Player and then there's Kontakt. Kontakt Player is included in Finale (as well as the Garritan Instrument Libraries), and supports VAR1, VAR2 etc. Kontakt is a full-blown sampler, sold separately. Perhaps an analogy will help: Kontakt Player is to Kontakt as Acrobat Reader is to Acrobat. - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://secretsociety.typepad.com Brooklyn, NY On 08 Oct 2006, at 6:28 PM, Richard Smith wrote: Does this require the full Kontakt player or will the Finale version (or Sibelius) work. Richard Smtih ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] Garritan [was: Finale/Sibelius as sequencer/sampler?]
Thanks, Darcy. Your analogy was perfect and I did find the var 1 2 knobs. I have much to learn about GPO an appreciate your help. Richard Smith www.rgsmithmusic.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Darcy James Argue Sent: Sunday, October 08, 2006 5:35 PM To: finale@shsu.edu Subject: Re: [Finale] Garritan [was: Finale/Sibelius as sequencer/sampler?] Richard, Just to clarify the terminology: there is no such thing as the full Kontakt player. There's Kontakt Player and then there's Kontakt. Kontakt Player is included in Finale (as well as the Garritan Instrument Libraries), and supports VAR1, VAR2 etc. Kontakt is a full-blown sampler, sold separately. Perhaps an analogy will help: Kontakt Player is to Kontakt as Acrobat Reader is to Acrobat. - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://secretsociety.typepad.com Brooklyn, NY On 08 Oct 2006, at 6:28 PM, Richard Smith wrote: Does this require the full Kontakt player or will the Finale version (or Sibelius) work. Richard Smtih ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.407 / Virus Database: 268.13.1/466 - Release Date: 10/7/2006 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.407 / Virus Database: 268.13.1/466 - Release Date: 10/7/2006 ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Garritan [was: Finale/Sibelius as sequencer/sampler?]
On 8 Oct 2006 at 17:18, Darcy James Argue wrote: On 08 Oct 2006, at 5:09 PM, David W. Fenton wrote: Again, this is something that is very easily done with the VAR1 and VAR2 commands in the Kontakt Player. Could you explicate that a bit, please? VAR1 and VAR2 are controllers in the Kontakt Player that allow you to control the amount of randomization given to intonation and timing. Nothing need be done in the Finale score at all -- these are knobs you tweak in the Kontakt Player. The goal is to produce a band sonority, with massed instruments on a part (say 6 each for 3 clarinet parts and the same for trumpets). You would simply load six clarinets (using as many different player variations as possible) into the Kontakt Player, assign them all to the same channel, and then tweak the VAR1 and VAR 2 knobs to your liking. No hidden staves are necessary. OK. I don't understand what all that means. Is Finale producing the output here? Or is the Kontakt Player taking a MIDI file and you're playing it back? Or is the Kontakt Player a slave of Finale, and it loads when you're using NI samples, and you make changes in it that affect Finale's playback? Do those changes int he Kontakt Player get saved with the Finale file, so that you always get the same playback once you've made these settings? And will Finale's WAV output (or is it MP3?) capture the result from the Kontakt Player? Sorry to ask about something that I'd know about if I were using Finale 2006 or later, but it's not clear to me how all of this works. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Garritan [was: Finale/Sibelius as sequencer/sampler?]
On 08 Oct 2006, at 7:20 PM, David W. Fenton wrote: OK. I don't understand what all that means. Is Finale producing the output here? Finale is triggering the Kontakt Player, which loads as an audio plugin inside Finale. The Kontakt Player in turn hosts the Garritan instruments and offers some control over how the sampled instruments play back. Or is the Kontakt Player taking a MIDI file and you're playing it back? No. Or is the Kontakt Player a slave of Finale, and it loads when you're using NI samples, and you make changes in it that affect Finale's playback? Sort of -- plugin, not slave but the rest is basically right. Do those changes in the Kontakt Player get saved with the Finale file, so that you always get the same playback once you've made these settings? I'm not 100% sure but I believe so, yes. And will Finale's WAV output (or is it MP3?) capture the result from the Kontakt Player? Yes. Cheers, - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://secretsociety.typepad.com Brooklyn, NY ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Garritan [was: Finale/Sibelius as sequencer/sampler?]
Eric Dannewitz wrote: Yes, and I'm sure every orchestra maintains lists for first call Accordian players, and other instruments NOT regularly in the Orchestra. You reinforced my point. Saxophone is not a regular part of an Orchestra. Wind Ensemble/Orchestra, yes, but a traditional Orchestra, no. dhbailey wrote: Except when they're programming works which call for saxophone, and then you can be there's saxophones in the London Symphony Orchestra. Every orchestra maintains lists of first-call players for instruments which they choose not to maintain a regular seat for. David H. Bailey ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Do you mean to tell me that every instrument included in GPO is a regular member of a standard orchestra? I don't think so. Most orchestras do no have a regular contrabassoon player, a regular english horn player, a bass clarinet player, tuba player, harpsichord, marimba, glockenspiel (oh yeah, baby, that's in all those Mozart and Haydn and Beethoven symphonies!), to say nothing about harp -- every orchestra uses at least one of those at every concert -- Not! There are lots of instruments in GPO which are either doubled occasionally (such as english horn or contrabassoon or bass clarinet, which is the same as happens with saxophone (I have a friend who plays clarinet predominantly who doubles on saxophone when it's called for or for which orchestras maintain lists of first call players to hire as additional members when the score calls for it, such as tuba, harpsichord, marimba, glockenspiel, harp. Your logic falls apart -- the exclusion of saxophones isn't for the reason that they're not regular members of an orchestra, not if all those other instruments I've listed are included in GPO. The saxes may be missing because they weren't ready in time, they may be missing because Gary simply felt like it wasn't important to include them (why include glockenspiel, though? That's a band instrument if ever I've seen one), but the fact is that they are missing and anybody who wishes to score a work which uses strings AND saxophones and who wishes to use GPO (either the Finale edition or the full version) has to buy two separate products. And that is a fact whether Gary Garritan is a wonderful person (I have no reason to doubt Chuck's assessment) or is a toad (I have no reason to think this). -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Garritan [was: Finale/Sibelius as sequencer/sampler?]
Chuck Israels wrote: On Oct 6, 2006, at 1:11 PM, dhbailey wrote: Steve Schow wrote: Regardless of when or how the sax has been used in orchestras, i believe your are mischaracterizing Gary Garritan as he were someone that deliberately left out a particular instrument to try to get more money from you later. Many people know that Gary Garritan is one of the nicest people in the industry, he has a well earned reputation for He is probably a very nice person, and I would not characterize him as having left the saxophone out on purpose to force anybody to buy more product from him. But regardless of the reason, that is the result. Or is he planning on including the saxophones in GPO-II or something? I'm still awaiting word on the release of the Garritan General Midi soundset, something which has been listed on the Finale web-site but mentioned very little elsewhere. That will include saxes and strings, as well as all the basic General Midi sounds, but of course won't have nearly the depth of nuances that GPO has. I don't know when it's coming, but the last time I saw Gary, he mentioned that this was in the works and implied that it was an important addition to his business. Chuck With his high standards for sample quality, I'm waiting, waiting, waiting for it because I know it'll be great -- in all my grousing about GPO not including saxes, I have never once complained about the quality of the samples. -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Garritan [was: Finale/Sibelius as sequencer/sampler?]
Eric Dannewitz wrote: Then go edit Wikipedia. However, I doubt they will take your edit. You just said standard additional instrument. It's not a standard instrument, but an additional instrument. Get it? Ok, really slow now.Standard...ADDITIONALinstrument. And say just as slowly: so is tuba, so is harp, so is glockenspiel/marimba -- so your logic about why saxes are left out of GPO falls apart, since it has these other ADDITIONAL instruments. -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Garritan [was: Finale/Sibelius as sequencer/sampler?]
On 07 Oct 2006, at 4:27 AM, dhbailey wrote: Do you mean to tell me that every instrument included in GPO is a regular member of a standard orchestra? I don't think so. I'm not sure how that's relevant. You're saying you want GPO to include fewer instruments? Most orchestras do no have a regular contrabassoon player, a regular english horn player, a bass clarinet player, tuba player, harpsichord, marimba, glockenspiel (oh yeah, baby, that's in all those Mozart and Haydn and Beethoven symphonies!), to say nothing about harp -- every orchestra uses at least one of those at every concert -- Not! I'm afraid you're extremely mistaken. Contrabassoon, English horn, bass clarinet, tuba, harpsichord, mallet percussion (certainly including marimba, glock, and vibes), and harp players are -- obviously -- salaried positions at every major orchestra. Sometimes as doublers (i.e., associate bassoon doubling contra, associate clarinet doubling b.cl., etc), but these are *all* salaried orchestral players. Saxophonists are generally not salaried players. Saxophone parts are most often covered by freelancers. Occasionally, if there's just one saxophone, the associate clarinetist will cover it, but very few (if any?) major orchestras have a salaried saxophone section. (why include glockenspiel, though? That's a band instrument if ever I've seen one) You have got to be kidding me. There are any number of orchestral warhorses, programmed by virtually every orchestra every season, that require glock. Don't make me list them. Any sample library must draw the line somewhere. If GPO included saxophones, someone else would be whining about the lack of Wagner tubas, celeste, and Ondes Martenot. It was entirely reasonable for GPO to draw the line at saxophones -- especially considering that when it was first released, it offered vastly more bang-for-buck than any other sample library available, to the point where everyone else now has to compete with Gary on price, and we are all the better for it. Complaining that you must buy two amazingly inexpensive sample libraries to get an instrument set that's *more* extensive than libraries costing over ten times as much as GPO and JABB put together is... well... words fail me. Cheers, - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://secretsociety.typepad.com Brooklyn, NY ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Garritan [was: Finale/Sibelius as sequencer/sampler?]
A Glockenspiel was used in Mozart's Die Zauberflote. But I'm sure Mozart was looking forward and knew it would be just a BAND instrument. Last time I saw the San Francisco Symphony they had a Harp but no saxophones. Funny...according to you they use them..not! One of the ladies I play with in a local symphony has a son in the National Symphony Orchestra, and they, once in a blue moon, will have saxophones for a piece. More of a band piece than an Orchestra piece. But what does he know. He's only been in the Orchestra for, oh, almost 20 years But yeah, you seem to know everything. Yeah.mmhmm... Saxophone is a band instrument. Or a Wind ensemble instrument. It's not a part of a traditional Orchestra, and I believe that is what GPO was aiming for. Perhaps there should have been a Garritan Personal Band instead of Garritan Personal Orchestra? dhbailey wrote: Do you mean to tell me that every instrument included in GPO is a regular member of a standard orchestra? I don't think so. Most orchestras do no have a regular contrabassoon player, a regular english horn player, a bass clarinet player, tuba player, harpsichord, marimba, glockenspiel (oh yeah, baby, that's in all those Mozart and Haydn and Beethoven symphonies!), to say nothing about harp -- every orchestra uses at least one of those at every concert -- Not! There are lots of instruments in GPO which are either doubled occasionally (such as english horn or contrabassoon or bass clarinet, which is the same as happens with saxophone (I have a friend who plays clarinet predominantly who doubles on saxophone when it's called for or for which orchestras maintain lists of first call players to hire as additional members when the score calls for it, such as tuba, harpsichord, marimba, glockenspiel, harp. Your logic falls apart -- the exclusion of saxophones isn't for the reason that they're not regular members of an orchestra, not if all those other instruments I've listed are included in GPO. The saxes may be missing because they weren't ready in time, they may be missing because Gary simply felt like it wasn't important to include them (why include glockenspiel, though? That's a band instrument if ever I've seen one), but the fact is that they are missing and anybody who wishes to score a work which uses strings AND saxophones and who wishes to use GPO (either the Finale edition or the full version) has to buy two separate products. And that is a fact whether Gary Garritan is a wonderful person (I have no reason to doubt Chuck's assessment) or is a toad (I have no reason to think this). ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Garritan [was: Finale/Sibelius as sequencer/sampler?]
Garritan Wind Ensemble is an upcoming project. - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://secretsociety.typepad.com Brooklyn, NY On 07 Oct 2006, at 11:01 AM, Eric Dannewitz wrote: Saxophone is a band instrument. Or a Wind ensemble instrument. It's not a part of a traditional Orchestra, and I believe that is what GPO was aiming for. Perhaps there should have been a Garritan Personal Band instead of Garritan Personal Orchestra? ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Garritan [was: Finale/Sibelius as sequencer/sampler?]
On Oct 7, 2006, at 11:10 AM, Darcy James Argue wrote: Garritan Wind Ensemble is an upcoming project. Wow! Really? I suppose you have an inside line on this? Christopher (It shouldn't be TOO good, or it will lose the realism. Squeaky clarinets, honky oboes (or else an out of tune muted trumpet), a completely overpopulated but still inadequate flute section, trumpets that crack every second note, horns that crack EVERY note, justifiably timid trombones, saxes that overrun the rest of the woodwind section etc., are part of the wind ensemble experience! And maybe the expanded Human Playback in Finale could take advantage of the new sound set and have the percussionists miss every second entrance and enter a 16th note early or 16th note late alternatively when they do come in. I can see it now: the Charles Ives' Country Band plugin!) 8-)=) (BIG grin!) ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Garritan [was: Finale/Sibelius as sequencer/sampler?]
On 07 Oct 2006, at 11:24 AM, Christopher Smith wrote: On Oct 7, 2006, at 11:10 AM, Darcy James Argue wrote: Garritan Wind Ensemble is an upcoming project. Wow! Really? I suppose you have an inside line on this? If by inside line you mean http://www.garritan.com: Announcing: Garritan MARCHING BAND Library The Industry's First Marching and Concert Band Library Featuring Trumpets, Trombones, Marching winds, Euponiums, Baritones, Saxophones, Sousaphone, Marching percussion. Create Realistic-Sounding Marching Band, Concert Band, Wind Ensemble and other Band Arrangements Quickly and Easily. Build Your Own Bands with Ensemble Building. Expected Fall of 2006. Coming Soon! - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://secretsociety.typepad.com Brooklyn, NY ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Garritan [was: Finale/Sibelius as sequencer/sampler?]
Very cool. I'll have to start saving up for this ;-) Darcy James Argue wrote: Garritan Wind Ensemble is an upcoming project. - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://secretsociety.typepad.com Brooklyn, NY On 07 Oct 2006, at 11:01 AM, Eric Dannewitz wrote: Saxophone is a band instrument. Or a Wind ensemble instrument. It's not a part of a traditional Orchestra, and I believe that is what GPO was aiming for. Perhaps there should have been a Garritan Personal Band instead of Garritan Personal Orchestra? ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Garritan [was: Finale/Sibelius as sequencer/sampler?]
So is choirs, solo voices and mandolins, at least it's what Gary told me. John. On Sat, 7 Oct 2006 11:10:54 -0400 Darcy James Argue [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Garritan Wind Ensemble is an upcoming project. - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://secretsociety.typepad.com Brooklyn, NY On 07 Oct 2006, at 11:01 AM, Eric Dannewitz wrote: Saxophone is a band instrument. Or a Wind ensemble instrument. It's not a part of a traditional Orchestra, and I believe that is what GPO was aiming for. Perhaps there should have been a Garritan Personal Band instead of Garritan Personal Orchestra? ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
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Alright! Since most of my instrumental writing is for Wind Ensemble, this would be great... yeah, I wonder what it will cost. Dean On Oct 7, 2006, at 9:27 AM, Eric Dannewitz wrote: Very cool. I'll have to start saving up for this ;-) Darcy James Argue wrote: Garritan Wind Ensemble is an upcoming project. - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://secretsociety.typepad.com Brooklyn, NY Dean M. Estabrook [EMAIL PROTECTED] Have you ever heard of an eleven or thirteen step program? ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Garritan [was: Finale/Sibelius as sequencer/sampler?]
We've all heard that band but then we have heard an orchestra sound like that too. I challenge you to find that sound from the Dallas Wind Symphony, the Tokyo Kosei Wind Orchestra, or any of the really fine university ensembles. Some really good music by some respected composers is being written for wind ensemble and many composition students are being advised that the best way to hear one's music performed is to write for band, not orchestra. I know it was meant as a joke, but, having spent 30 years working with bands, I really would like to see old stereotypes and prejudices go away. My question is what will GPO Wind Ensemble have in it that's not in GPO Orchestra. Saxophones and some expanded percussion? I would be content with a civilized classical sax sound. I think everything else I need is in GPO orchestra. Richard Smith www.rgsmithmusic.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] Christopher Smith wrote: On Oct 7, 2006, at 11:10 AM, Darcy James Argue wrote: Garritan Wind Ensemble is an upcoming project. Wow! Really? I suppose you have an inside line on this? Christopher (It shouldn't be TOO good, or it will lose the realism. Squeaky clarinets, honky oboes (or else an out of tune muted trumpet), a completely overpopulated but still inadequate flute section, trumpets that crack every second note, horns that crack EVERY note, justifiably timid trombones, saxes that overrun the rest of the woodwind section etc., are part of the wind ensemble experience! And maybe the expanded Human Playback in Finale could take advantage of the new sound set and have the percussionists miss every second entrance and enter a 16th note early or 16th note late alternatively when they do come in. I can see it now: the Charles Ives' Country Band plugin!) 8-)=) (BIG grin!) ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Garritan [was: Finale/Sibelius as sequencer/sampler?]
On Oct 7, 2006, at 2:40 PM, Richard Smith wrote: We've all heard that band but then we have heard an orchestra sound like that too. I challenge you to find that sound from the Dallas Wind Symphony, the Tokyo Kosei Wind Orchestra, or any of the really fine university ensembles. Some really good music by some respected composers is being written for wind ensemble and many composition students are being advised that the best way to hear one's music performed is to write for band, not orchestra. I know it was meant as a joke, but, having spent 30 years working with bands, I really would like to see old stereotypes and prejudices go away. I'm an alumni of the Eastman Wind Ensemble (I'm actually on the album they made with Wynton Marsalis in 1988 that won the Grammy), so you are preaching to the converted. I'm sad to say, though, that my band experiences since then have been lesser ones. The best way to get old stereotypes to go away is to stop being them, like most of the viola players I know who match or exceed the violinists in technique and musicality. My question is what will GPO Wind Ensemble have in it that's not in GPO Orchestra. Saxophones and some expanded percussion? I would be content with a civilized classical sax sound. I think everything else I need is in GPO orchestra. I suspect that the section numbers and balances will be different, for one thing, to compensate for the seating and staffing one is used to hearing in a wind band compared to an orchestra. Balance is one of the things I think could be better with GPO Orchestra, too. Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Garritan [was: Finale/Sibelius as sequencer/sampler?]
At 7:53 PM -0700 10/6/06, Eric Dannewitz wrote: Then go edit Wikipedia. However, I doubt they will take your edit. You just said standard additional instrument. It's not a standard instrument, but an additional instrument. Get it? Ok, really slow now.Standard...ADDITIONALinstrument. So, yeah, they will ADD a saxophonist or two if needed, but they are not part of the core/traditional/standard orchestra. Hi again, Eric. Yes, of course I understand exactly what you mean, and you obviously understand exactly what I mean, even filtered through the sarcasm. But my point is that the orchestra is an evolving concept and that there is no standard orchestra that covers everything from French Baroque opera to Mozart to late Beethoven to late Wagner to Stravinsky to Copland to John Williams. The standard instrumentation is an administrative convenience, and as such represents the instrumentation that is used most often. Haydn and Mahler had somewhat different ideas about what was standard. Instruments that aren't used in a particular composition are left out, and instruments not on the full time payroll are added as needed. Do the orchestras you cite list a harpist? Probably. Ah, but do they list TWO harpists? Gotta have 'em for Berlioz. So I guess I have no trouble with your saying the saxophone is not a standard instrument, but I would have to continue to disagree if by that you actually mean that it is not an orchestral instrument, which is how I read your original statement. It is, in fact, a military band, concert band, jazz band, marching band, solo, chamber music, AND orchestral instrument. John -- John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Garritan [was: Finale/Sibelius as sequencer/sampler?]
On 7 Oct 2006 at 4:27, dhbailey wrote: The saxes may be missing because they weren't ready in time, they may be missing because Gary simply felt like it wasn't important to include them (why include glockenspiel, though? That's a band instrument if ever I've seen one) Well, perhaps because it's relatively easy to create a sample for it, as there's not much in the way of nuance to the envelope for the basic sample. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Garritan [was: Finale/Sibelius as sequencer/sampler?]
On 7 Oct 2006 at 13:40, Richard Smith wrote: Some really good music by some respected composers is being written for wind ensemble and many composition students are being advised that the best way to hear one's music performed is to write for band, not orchestra. Are we talking about bands or wind ensemble? Maybe I'm mistaken, but I thought there was a difference. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
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The distinctions are not always clear. The wind ensemble's connection to the band should not be obscured but the the connection to older wind music is also important. Richard Smith www.rgsmithmusic.com Are we talking about bands or wind ensemble? Maybe I'm mistaken, but I thought there was a difference. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
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On 7 Oct 2006 at 15:20, Richard Smith wrote: [quoting me:] Are we talking about bands or wind ensemble? Maybe I'm mistaken, but I thought there was a difference. The distinctions are not always clear. The wind ensemble's connection to the band should not be obscured but the the connection to older wind music is also important. But for samples, wouldn't you want a completely different sound? WHile they can play the same repertory, they amount of section doubling is drastically different between the two ensembles. Or so I've always thought. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Garritan [was: Finale/Sibelius as sequencer/sampler?]
That's a good point. I suppose I think to much in live terms. Of course doubling could be accomplished by hidden, duplicate staves. I think all I would want that's not in GPO is a good set of concert (not pop) saxophones, cornets and/or flugel horns, and euphonia that sound like euphonia rather than English baritones. That, I guess, is more of a wind ensemble library than a band with lots of extra doubling. Richard Smith www.rgsmithmusic.com But for samples, wouldn't you want a completely different sound? WHile they can play the same repertory, they amount of section doubling is drastically different between the two ensembles. Or so I've always thought. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Garritan [was: Finale/Sibelius as sequencer/sampler?]
On 7 Oct 2006 at 15:48, Richard Smith wrote: [quoting me, unattributed, again:] But for samples, wouldn't you want a completely different sound? WHile they can play the same repertory, they amount of section doubling is drastically different between the two ensembles. Or so I've always thought. That's a good point. I suppose I think to much in live terms. Of course doubling could be accomplished by hidden, duplicate staves. Surely not. Using the same patch for multiple staves does not sound anything like a the same number of actual players, each of which has an individual sound. I guess a well-designed chorus controller would give some variety here, which is what chorus was designed for to begin with, but I'm not sure if it would be enough to capture the difference very well. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Garritan [was: Finale/Sibelius as sequencer/sampler?]
Eric Dannewitz wrote: A Glockenspiel was used in Mozart's Die Zauberflote. At risk of being picayune, the Glockenspiel used in Zauberflöte is a keyboard instrument somewhat different in sound from the modern, played-with-mallets, orchestral and band glockenspiel. DJW ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Garritan [was: Finale/Sibelius as sequencer/sampler?]
You're right, of course. Doubling the same instrument is just a waste of resources. Egg on my face! I think, for my purposes, I would prefer a wind ensemble to a larger concert band set up because of the greater clarity (much like the real world). Richard Smith www.rgsmithmusic.com Surely not. Using the same patch for multiple staves does not sound anything like a the same number of actual players, each of which has an individual sound. I guess a well-designed chorus controller would give some variety here, which is what chorus was designed for to begin with, but I'm not sure if it would be enough to capture the difference very well. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Garritan [was: Finale/Sibelius as sequencer/sampler?]
On 07 Oct 2006, at 6:32 PM, Richard Smith wrote: You're right, of course. Doubling the same instrument is just a waste of resources. Egg on my face! Not at all. As I mentioned, in Garritan instruments, doubling the player variations (i.e. Flute Player 1 and Flute Player 2) gives authentic unisons and is not a waste of resources at all. David doesn't use Garritan instruments so the comments he made were not applicable to Garritan libraries. Where you erred is when you suggested that multiple, hidden staves were necessary for doubling -- they are not. For doubled staves, you can simply load multiple instruments or player variations and assign them to the same channel. Cheers, - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://secretsociety.typepad.com Brooklyn, NY ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Garritan [was: Finale/Sibelius as sequencer/sampler?]
I seem to be having trouble with language. When I said instruments, I meant samples, not different samples of the same instrument. Sorry for being unclear. Richard Smith www.rgsmithmusic.com Not at all. As I mentioned, in Garritan instruments, doubling the player variations (i.e. Flute Player 1 and Flute Player 2) gives authentic unisons and is not a waste of resources at all. David doesn't use Garritan instruments so the comments he made were not applicable to Garritan libraries. Where you erred is when you suggested that multiple, hidden staves were necessary for doubling -- they are not. For doubled staves, you can simply load multiple instruments or player variations and assign them to the same channel. Cheers, - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://secretsociety.typepad.com Brooklyn, NY ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Garritan [was: Finale/Sibelius as sequencer/sampler?]
True, Richard Strauss used it in Don Juan. John. On Sun, 08 Oct 2006 00:17:19 +0200 Daniel Wolf [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Eric Dannewitz wrote: A Glockenspiel was used in Mozart's Die Zauberflote. At risk of being picayune, the Glockenspiel used in Zauberflöte is a keyboard instrument somewhat different in sound from the modern, played-with-mallets, orchestral and band glockenspiel. DJW ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Garritan [was: Finale/Sibelius as sequencer/sampler?]
Was it a celesta? Dean At risk of being picayune, the Glockenspiel used in Zauberflöte is a keyboard instrument somewhat different in sound from the modern, played-with-mallets, orchestral and band glockenspiel. DJW Dean M. Estabrook [EMAIL PROTECTED] Have you ever heard of an eleven or thirteen step program? ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Garritan [was: Finale/Sibelius as sequencer/sampler?]
At 4:04 PM -0400 10/7/06, David W. Fenton wrote: On 7 Oct 2006 at 13:40, Richard Smith wrote: Some really good music by some respected composers is being written for wind ensemble and many composition students are being advised that the best way to hear one's music performed is to write for band, not orchestra. Are we talking about bands or wind ensemble? Maybe I'm mistaken, but I thought there was a difference. In theory there is. Fennell's original conception of a wind ensemble was one player per part, but I don't know whether even he held to that for his clarinet section. (I suspect there is someone here who can answer that.) And of course the T.O. for most military bands (although not the ones in D.C.) has slots that are basically for one on a part, so Fennell's concept was not exactly a brand new one. In practice (at the college level, at least), a wind ensemble is the band with the best players in it, on the small side, but not necessarily with only one on a part. (For one thing, with college students one has to take into consideration the possibility of illness or injury, and if 6 players are out sick you'd have 6 parts not being covered. Choral directors have to deal with the same practicalities, and since the weather around here started changing the singers have been dropping like flies!) At this school the wind ensemble is as I've described above, has very fine players, and tackles serious musical challenges. The (huge!) marching band breaks down after football season into a basketball pep band and a large Symphony Band for those who want to keep playing spring semester. Neither one is actually too bad. Then there is the question of whether a jazz ensemble is properly called a Jazz Orchestra or a Jazz Band, and the presence or absence of strings seems to have nothing to do with it! This school is also blessed (?) with a SECOND marching band, the Corps of Cadets band, called the Highty Tighties. (No, I don't know why, and neither does anyone else I've talked to, nor does anyone know why we're known athletically as the Hokies!) The level of playing varies from year to year, because basically anyone who joins the Corps and plays a band instrument is assigned to the Band Company unless they are also in one of the Music Department ensembles. They have a tradition reaching back into pre-history, and an influential cadre of alumni who kept them from being disbanded in the early '80s, while our Marching Virginians was only founded in about 1974 or so. But the Highty Tighties did something at about the turn of the millennium that I thoroughly approved of. The University Pep Band has traditionally supported the men's basketball team, but not the women's. When our women started getting good and attracting some notice, the Highty Tighties formed their own pep band to support the ladies, and I was most impressed that they would do so. None of which speaks directly to your question, David, but does sort of underscore the true answer: It Depends! John -- John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Garritan [was: Finale/Sibelius as sequencer/sampler?]
I think it was--or at least the late 18th century equivalent. I also suspect that the German Glockenspiel can actually refer to different instruments in translation. It's possible that celesta is one of them, as well as the mallet-played orchestra bells. What I grew up calling a Glockenspiel is more properly a Bell Lyra, which had to be played one-handed because the other hand had to support it in its sling, and that's the instrument that I'd guess was expected in turn-of-the-20th-century marches rather than the awkward-to-march-with flat set of orchestra bells. OK, I just looked it up in A Practical Guide to Percussion Terminology by Russ Girsberger, and it's just as complicated as I thought it would be. Glöckchen: tubular bells; chimes Glocke: bell Glocken: chimes Glockenartig: like a bell; bell-like Glockenplatten: bell plates Glockenspiel: Keyboard percussion instrument with steel or aluminum bars. In printed music, it may refer to a Bell Lyra, as used in German military music, or Orchestra Bells, as used in concert music. Glockenspiel à clavier: (Fr.) keyboard glockenspiel Glockenspiel mit tasten: keyboard glockenspiel. Whew! John At 4:12 PM -0700 10/7/06, Dean M. Estabrook wrote: Was it a celesta? Dean At risk of being picayune, the Glockenspiel used in Zauberflöte is a keyboard instrument somewhat different in sound from the modern, played-with-mallets, orchestral and band glockenspiel. DJW Dean M. Estabrook [EMAIL PROTECTED] Have you ever heard of an eleven or thirteen step program? ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale -- John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Garritan [was: Finale/Sibelius as sequencer/sampler?]
Interesting that celeste is not listed, yet that's what I always hear in Magic Flute performances and recordings. Seems OK to my ears. Chuck On Oct 7, 2006, at 4:42 PM, John Howell wrote: I think it was--or at least the late 18th century equivalent. I also suspect that the German Glockenspiel can actually refer to different instruments in translation. It's possible that celesta is one of them, as well as the mallet-played orchestra bells. What I grew up calling a Glockenspiel is more properly a Bell Lyra, which had to be played one-handed because the other hand had to support it in its sling, and that's the instrument that I'd guess was expected in turn-of-the-20th-century marches rather than the awkward-to-march-with flat set of orchestra bells. OK, I just looked it up in A Practical Guide to Percussion Terminology by Russ Girsberger, and it's just as complicated as I thought it would be. Glöckchen: tubular bells; chimes Glocke: bell Glocken: chimes Glockenartig: like a bell; bell-like Glockenplatten: bell plates Glockenspiel: Keyboard percussion instrument with steel or aluminum bars. In printed music, it may refer to a Bell Lyra, as used in German military music, or Orchestra Bells, as used in concert music. Glockenspiel à clavier: (Fr.) keyboard glockenspiel Glockenspiel mit tasten: keyboard glockenspiel. Whew! John At 4:12 PM -0700 10/7/06, Dean M. Estabrook wrote: Was it a celesta? Dean At risk of being picayune, the Glockenspiel used in Zauberflöte is a keyboard instrument somewhat different in sound from the modern, played-with-mallets, orchestral and band glockenspiel. DJW Dean M. Estabrook [EMAIL PROTECTED] Have you ever heard of an eleven or thirteen step program? ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale -- John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Chuck Israels 230 North Garden Terrace Bellingham, WA 98225-5836 phone (360) 671-3402 fax (360) 676-6055 www.chuckisraels.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Garritan [was: Finale/Sibelius as sequencer/sampler?]
This dialog serves to remind me of an experience I had in my first year of teaching ... ca. 1966. Our high school had a very fine advanced band called a Wind Ensemble, which, in fact, had a minimum number of players per part, in general. Then there was a less advanced Concert Band, with everyone else. In those days, the Wind Ensemble concept was very popular and was synonymous with higher quality wind performances. Well, our Wind Ensemble was picked to play at the State MENC Conference that spring, so I wrote something for it and went to listen, still thinking that Wind Ensembles were at the top of the food chain. This perception remained in tact until I walked into a rehearsal of Clarence Sawhill's (either USC or UCLA ... someone correct me) Symphonic Band. It featured MANY players per part, and I swear the clarinet section(s) sounded just like the string section of a major symphony orchestra. It's a sound which is still in my mind. We live and learn. Dean On Oct 7, 2006, at 4:28 PM, John Howell wrote: Are we talking about bands or wind ensemble? Maybe I'm mistaken, but I thought there was a difference. In theory there is. Fennell's original conception of a wind ensemble was one player per part, but I don't know whether even he held to that for his clarinet section. (I suspect there is someone here who can answer that.) And of course the T.O. for most military bands (although not the ones in D.C.) has slots that are basically for one on a part, so Fennell's concept was not exactly a brand new one. In practice (at the college level, at least), a wind ensemble is the band with the best players in it, on the small side, but not necessarily with only one on a part. Dean M. Estabrook [EMAIL PROTECTED] Have you ever heard of an eleven or thirteen step program? ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Garritan [was: Finale/Sibelius as sequencer/sampler?]
On the contrary, three of the terms mean a keyboard instrument as the single or one possible meaning. John At 5:58 PM -0700 10/7/06, Chuck Israels wrote: Interesting that celeste is not listed, yet that's what I always hear in Magic Flute performances and recordings. Seems OK to my ears. Chuck On Oct 7, 2006, at 4:42 PM, John Howell wrote: I think it was--or at least the late 18th century equivalent. I also suspect that the German Glockenspiel can actually refer to different instruments in translation. It's possible that celesta is one of them, as well as the mallet-played orchestra bells. What I grew up calling a Glockenspiel is more properly a Bell Lyra, which had to be played one-handed because the other hand had to support it in its sling, and that's the instrument that I'd guess was expected in turn-of-the-20th-century marches rather than the awkward-to-march-with flat set of orchestra bells. OK, I just looked it up in A Practical Guide to Percussion Terminology by Russ Girsberger, and it's just as complicated as I thought it would be. Glöckchen: tubular bells; chimes Glocke: bell Glocken: chimes Glockenartig: like a bell; bell-like Glockenplatten: bell plates Glockenspiel: Keyboard percussion instrument with steel or aluminum bars. In printed music, it may refer to a Bell Lyra, as used in German military music, or Orchestra Bells, as used in concert music. Glockenspiel à clavier: (Fr.) keyboard glockenspiel Glockenspiel mit tasten: keyboard glockenspiel. Whew! John At 4:12 PM -0700 10/7/06, Dean M. Estabrook wrote: Was it a celesta? Dean At risk of being picayune, the Glockenspiel used in Zauberflöte is a keyboard instrument somewhat different in sound from the modern, played-with-mallets, orchestral and band glockenspiel. DJW Dean M. Estabrook [EMAIL PROTECTED] Have you ever heard of an eleven or thirteen step program? ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale -- John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Chuck Israels 230 North Garden Terrace Bellingham, WA 98225-5836 phone (360) 671-3402 fax (360) 676-6055 www.chuckisraels.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale -- John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Garritan [was: Finale/Sibelius as sequencer/sampler?]
I don't believe saxophone is included in an orchestra. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orchestra I don't believe that the London Symphony Orchestra has saxophones in it. Ken Moore wrote: dhbailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Garritan also made money by not including some very important instruments in their GPO product, most notably saxophones and electric guitars and basses, very reasonably claiming that those instruments aren't part of the standard orchestra. So they then forced people who wanted THOSE sounds to buy an extra product as well. Very smart marketing. And all those people who purchased the standalone Jazz and Big Band product who still wanted full orchestra sounds needed to buy both products. Even more money for Garritan. Except for the sales lost to people like me who decided that the omission of the saxophone from the orchestra was such an egregious rip-off that Garritan was a company with whom I would not do business.* Look at all the 20th C. percussion they offer, and consider that the saxophone has been a regular member of the orchestra since before 1865 (Meyerbeer); and is used in important works by, inter alia, Bizet, Debussy and Rachmaninov. * I write only for human players, mostly my amateur musician friends, so realistic play-back is not a strong requirement. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Garritan [was: Finale/Sibelius as sequencer/sampler?]
It is, if you're playing Ravel, among other composers... On Oct 6, 2006, at 3:11 PM, Eric Dannewitz wrote: I don't believe saxophone is included in an orchestra. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orchestra I don't believe that the London Symphony Orchestra has saxophones in it. Martin Banner [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Garritan [was: Finale/Sibelius as sequencer/sampler?]
Regardless of when or how the sax has been used in orchestras, i believe your are mischaracterizing Gary Garritan as he were someone that deliberately left out a particular instrument to try to get more money from you later. Many people know that Gary Garritan is one of the nicest people in the industry, he has a well earned reputation for backing up his product with both support and enthusiasm, perhaps unprecedented. On top of all that his price break through with GPO was unheard of at the time. To complain that he left out Saxes on purposes is a cry baby banter. Please. Sorry you don't have your saxes, but give Gary Garritan just a little more slack. - |Music is a manifestation of the human spirit Steve Schow | similar to a language. If we do not want such [EMAIL PROTECTED] | things to remain dead treasures, we must do our www.bstage.com | upmost to make the greatest number of people | understand their secrets -- Zoltan Kodaly - ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Garritan [was: Finale/Sibelius as sequencer/sampler?]
Just a quick response to the complaint about instrumentation in sample libraries. Whoever makes them and markets them has to decide what to include and what to leave out, just as MM must make similar decisions about their products. It seems foolish to criticize the exclusion of one or two fairly specialized instruments in a package that contains most of what most people will need. Some of us are lucky that Gary responded to our requests for the inclusion of the bass clarinet (for example) in the Jazz library. But if you write for a jazz band with horns, you need GPO. I see that as a packaging and marketing decision driven by things that are far beyond the control of any individual end user, and I am pretty calm in accepting that, just as I accept the fact that our 2002 Mercedes station wagon doesn't have 4 wheel drive (newer models, for more money, have it), which we need a couple of days a year. We are forced to walk or rely on our neighbors in those circumstances, so we either get much needed exercise, or welcome contact with our neighbors, who seem to enjoy the chance to help us. Do I sound like Peter Positive here or what? Chuck On Oct 6, 2006, at 12:11 PM, Eric Dannewitz wrote: I don't believe saxophone is included in an orchestra. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orchestra I don't believe that the London Symphony Orchestra has saxophones in it. Ken Moore wrote: dhbailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Garritan also made money by not including some very important instruments in their GPO product, most notably saxophones and electric guitars and basses, very reasonably claiming that those instruments aren't part of the standard orchestra. So they then forced people who wanted THOSE sounds to buy an extra product as well. Very smart marketing. And all those people who purchased the standalone Jazz and Big Band product who still wanted full orchestra sounds needed to buy both products. Even more money for Garritan. Except for the sales lost to people like me who decided that the omission of the saxophone from the orchestra was such an egregious rip-off that Garritan was a company with whom I would not do business.* Look at all the 20th C. percussion they offer, and consider that the saxophone has been a regular member of the orchestra since before 1865 (Meyerbeer); and is used in important works by, inter alia, Bizet, Debussy and Rachmaninov. * I write only for human players, mostly my amateur musician friends, so realistic play-back is not a strong requirement. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Chuck Israels 230 North Garden Terrace Bellingham, WA 98225-5836 phone (360) 671-3402 fax (360) 676-6055 www.chuckisraels.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Garritan [was: Finale/Sibelius as sequencer/sampler?]
On Oct 6, 2006, at 3:11 PM, Eric Dannewitz wrote: I don't believe saxophone is included in an orchestra. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orchestra I don't believe that the London Symphony Orchestra has saxophones in it. Hey, the LSO doesn't even list a bass trombonist, so I don't know how much stock I should put in their member lists. The main reason to want sax and euphonium in Garritan is to be able to play back wind ensemble music, I should think, though being able to play back the few orch works that use sax and euph (not to mention Wagner tubas, ophelcleide, and other odd ducks) would be nice, too. I was surprised at the omission of saxes, too. It was more than made up for, though, in the Jazz and Big Band edition! Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Garritan [was: Finale/Sibelius as sequencer/sampler?]
On Oct 6, 2006, at 12:19 PM, Steve Schow wrote: Regardless of when or how the sax has been used in orchestras, i believe your are mischaracterizing Gary Garritan as he were someone that deliberately left out a particular instrument to try to get more money from you later. Many people know that Gary Garritan is one of the nicest people in the industry, Amen - an unusually honest and decent guy who maintains that character in an industry that doesn't make that easy. (This after many days of personal contact and a few business dealings with him.) Chuck he has a well earned reputation for backing up his product with both support and enthusiasm, perhaps unprecedented. On top of all that his price break through with GPO was unheard of at the time. To complain that he left out Saxes on purposes is a cry baby banter. Please. Sorry you don't have your saxes, but give Gary Garritan just a little more slack. - |Music is a manifestation of the human spirit Steve Schow | similar to a language. If we do not want such [EMAIL PROTECTED] | things to remain dead treasures, we must do our www.bstage.com | upmost to make the greatest number of people | understand their secrets -- Zoltan Kodaly - ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Chuck Israels 230 North Garden Terrace Bellingham, WA 98225-5836 phone (360) 671-3402 fax (360) 676-6055 www.chuckisraels.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Garritan [was: Finale/Sibelius as sequencer/sampler?]
Except when they're programming works which call for saxophone, and then you can be there's saxophones in the London Symphony Orchestra. Every orchestra maintains lists of first-call players for instruments which they choose not to maintain a regular seat for. David H. Bailey Eric Dannewitz wrote: I don't believe saxophone is included in an orchestra. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orchestra I don't believe that the London Symphony Orchestra has saxophones in it. Ken Moore wrote: dhbailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Garritan also made money by not including some very important instruments in their GPO product, most notably saxophones and electric guitars and basses, very reasonably claiming that those instruments aren't part of the standard orchestra. So they then forced people who wanted THOSE sounds to buy an extra product as well. Very smart marketing. And all those people who purchased the standalone Jazz and Big Band product who still wanted full orchestra sounds needed to buy both products. Even more money for Garritan. Except for the sales lost to people like me who decided that the omission of the saxophone from the orchestra was such an egregious rip-off that Garritan was a company with whom I would not do business.* Look at all the 20th C. percussion they offer, and consider that the saxophone has been a regular member of the orchestra since before 1865 (Meyerbeer); and is used in important works by, inter alia, Bizet, Debussy and Rachmaninov. * I write only for human players, mostly my amateur musician friends, so realistic play-back is not a strong requirement. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Garritan [was: Finale/Sibelius as sequencer/sampler?]
Steve Schow wrote: Regardless of when or how the sax has been used in orchestras, i believe your are mischaracterizing Gary Garritan as he were someone that deliberately left out a particular instrument to try to get more money from you later. Many people know that Gary Garritan is one of the nicest people in the industry, he has a well earned reputation for He is probably a very nice person, and I would not characterize him as having left the saxophone out on purpose to force anybody to buy more product from him. But regardless of the reason, that is the result. Or is he planning on including the saxophones in GPO-II or something? I'm still awaiting word on the release of the Garritan General Midi soundset, something which has been listed on the Finale web-site but mentioned very little elsewhere. That will include saxes and strings, as well as all the basic General Midi sounds, but of course won't have nearly the depth of nuances that GPO has. So to get both saxes and strings in the same quality we need to buy two products. Regardless of the reason, the financial impact is the same. -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Garritan [was: Finale/Sibelius as sequencer/sampler?]
Yes, and I'm sure every orchestra maintains lists for first call Accordian players, and other instruments NOT regularly in the Orchestra. You reinforced my point. Saxophone is not a regular part of an Orchestra. Wind Ensemble/Orchestra, yes, but a traditional Orchestra, no. dhbailey wrote: Except when they're programming works which call for saxophone, and then you can be there's saxophones in the London Symphony Orchestra. Every orchestra maintains lists of first-call players for instruments which they choose not to maintain a regular seat for. David H. Bailey ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] Garritan [was: Finale/Sibelius as sequencer/sampler?]
Steve Schow wrote: Regardless of when or how the sax has been used in orchestras, i believe your are mischaracterizing Gary Garritan as he were someone that deliberately left out a particular instrument to try to get more money from you later. Many people know that Gary Garritan is one of the nicest people in the industry, he has a well earned reputation for I agree with Steve Schow on this one. I have had many of the same dealings with garritan as Chuck has had, though perhaps not as extensively. In addition to being a working euphonium player (to the extent that they work) I am also a professor of Business Administration. I hold Garritan's enterprise up in my classes as examples of a well-designed business model, how to do well by doing good, how to create buzz, and how to build a successful online community. I don't resent the fact that he makes money. He took risks, the risks paid off, and he deserves every penny. He's done a tremendous service to students of music everywhere. Steve Schow wrote: Regardless of when or how the sax has been used in orchestras, i believe your are mischaracterizing Gary Garritan as he were someone that deliberately left out a particular instrument to try to get more money from you later. Many people know that Gary Garritan is one of the nicest people in the industry, he has a well earned reputation for I agree with Steve Schow on this one. I have had many of the same dealings with garritan as Chuck has had, though perhaps not as extensively. In addition to being a working euphonium player (to the extent that they work) I am also a professor of Business Administration. I hold Garritan's enterprise up in my classes as examples of a well-designed business model, how to do well by doing good, how to create buzz, and how to build a successful online community. I don't resent the fact that he makes money. He took risks, the risks paid off, and he deserves every penny. He's done a tremendous service to students of music everywhere. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Garritan [was: Finale/Sibelius as sequencer/sampler?]
On Oct 6, 2006, at 3:11 PM, Eric Dannewitz wrote: I don't believe saxophone is included in an orchestra. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orchestra I don't believe that the London Symphony Orchestra has saxophones in it. It does when it needs to. The Wikipedia article clearly needs tweaking (there is, for example, no such thing as a philharmonic orchestra--the adjective refers to the sponsoring body behind the orchestra, not to the orchestra itself). The discussion under 1.2 Expanded instrumentation and personnel is incomplete as some of the larger orchestras (the Philadelphia Orchestra, e.g.) keep all kinds of extra players on the roster so as not to have to lower themselves by hiring freelancers. Just this year the musicians almost went on strike when it was proposed to eliminate the position of second harpist. As far as the saxophone goes, it has been practically the norm for this instrument to be doubled by the utility clarinetist (bass clarinet and/or Eb clarinet), as is the case, for example, in the Buffalo Philharmonic. However it may be provided, there are just too many important scores with sax parts to say that it is not a part of the orchestra. Composers for the past forty years have routinely required not just one sax, but complete sax sections, so that any orchestra wishing to play contemporary scores (as, e.g., San Francisco) is under considerable pressure to add such a section to its permanent roster. I do not know whether any orchestra has actually done this or not. Whether they have or not, it is only a matter of time--and not much time--until they do, and in the meantime any sequencer aimed at classical composers needs A T Bt sax sounds every bit as much as it needs the bass clarinet. Andrew Stiller Kallisti Music Press http://home.netcom.com/~kallisti/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Garritan [was: Finale/Sibelius as sequencer/sampler?]
On Oct 6, 2006, at 1:11 PM, dhbailey wrote: Steve Schow wrote: Regardless of when or how the sax has been used in orchestras, i believe your are mischaracterizing Gary Garritan as he were someone that deliberately left out a particular instrument to try to get more money from you later. Many people know that Gary Garritan is one of the nicest people in the industry, he has a well earned reputation for He is probably a very nice person, and I would not characterize him as having left the saxophone out on purpose to force anybody to buy more product from him. But regardless of the reason, that is the result. Or is he planning on including the saxophones in GPO-II or something? I'm still awaiting word on the release of the Garritan General Midi soundset, something which has been listed on the Finale web-site but mentioned very little elsewhere. That will include saxes and strings, as well as all the basic General Midi sounds, but of course won't have nearly the depth of nuances that GPO has. I don't know when it's coming, but the last time I saw Gary, he mentioned that this was in the works and implied that it was an important addition to his business. Chuck So to get both saxes and strings in the same quality we need to buy two products. Regardless of the reason, the financial impact is the same. -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Chuck Israels 230 North Garden Terrace Bellingham, WA 98225-5836 phone (360) 671-3402 fax (360) 676-6055 www.chuckisraels.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Garritan [was: Finale/Sibelius as sequencer/sampler?]
At 12:11 PM -0700 10/6/06, Eric Dannewitz wrote: I don't believe saxophone is included in an orchestra. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orchestra You missed the asterisk! But in this case, Wikipedia fails to be all things to all people, although it certainly tries hard. Saxophone is a standard additional instrument, and experienced orchestra managers know perfectly well that they need to have a depth chart of sax players just as they do for every other instrument. I don't believe that the London Symphony Orchestra has saxophones in it. Then I guess they don't play Ravel, Debussy, or Gershwin as they were intended to be played. Someone mentioned a very early use by Meyerbeer, but hey, he was an opera guy, so what can you expect!?!! John -- John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Garritan [was: Finale/Sibelius as sequencer/sampler?]
On 6 Oct 2006 at 22:31, John Howell wrote: At 12:11 PM -0700 10/6/06, Eric Dannewitz wrote: I don't believe saxophone is included in an orchestra. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orchestra You missed the asterisk! But in this case, Wikipedia fails to be all things to all people, although it certainly tries hard. Saxophone is a standard additional instrument, and experienced orchestra managers know perfectly well that they need to have a depth chart of sax players just as they do for every other instrument. If y'all find fault with the Wikipedia article, then, by all means, register and fix its faults! How can it become better if people with subject-matter expertise refuse to help out? -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Garritan [was: Finale/Sibelius as sequencer/sampler?]
Then go edit Wikipedia. However, I doubt they will take your edit. You just said standard additional instrument. It's not a standard instrument, but an additional instrument. Get it? Ok, really slow now.Standard...ADDITIONALinstrument. So, yeah, they will ADD a saxophonist or two if needed, but they are not part of the core/traditional/standard orchestra. So, like, if I go to the San Francisco Orchestra page.. http://www.sfsymphony.org/templates/orchmain.asp?nodeid=65 They don't have a saxophonist listed, though I'm sure they will hire some if needed. John Howell wrote: At 12:11 PM -0700 10/6/06, Eric Dannewitz wrote: I don't believe saxophone is included in an orchestra. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orchestra You missed the asterisk! But in this case, Wikipedia fails to be all things to all people, although it certainly tries hard. Saxophone is a standard additional instrument, and experienced orchestra managers know perfectly well that they need to have a depth chart of sax players just as they do for every other instrument. I don't believe that the London Symphony Orchestra has saxophones in it. Then I guess they don't play Ravel, Debussy, or Gershwin as they were intended to be played. Someone mentioned a very early use by Meyerbeer, but hey, he was an opera guy, so what can you expect!?!! John ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Garritan [was: Finale/Sibelius as sequencer/sampler?]
Whether or you consider the sax a part of the orchestra or not, I have yet to hear a sampled sax sound that couldn't totally destroy all of the other instruments. In my concert band scores, usually replace the sax sounds with clarinet so I can preserve some balance. I would love a sampled classical sax sound instead of the aggressive pop/jazz sound which is all I have been able to find. On the other hand, if I wrote for jazz bands, I would probably like what's available. Richard Smith www.rgsmithmusic.com Eric Dannewitz wrote: Then go edit Wikipedia. However, I doubt they will take your edit. You just said standard additional instrument. It's not a standard instrument, but an additional instrument. Get it? Ok, really slow now.Standard...ADDITIONALinstrument. So, yeah, they will ADD a saxophonist or two if needed, but they are not part of the core/traditional/standard orchestra. So, like, if I go to the San Francisco Orchestra page.. http://www.sfsymphony.org/templates/orchmain.asp?nodeid=65 They don't have a saxophonist listed, though I'm sure they will hire some if needed. John Howell wrote: At 12:11 PM -0700 10/6/06, Eric Dannewitz wrote: I don't believe saxophone is included in an orchestra. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orchestra You missed the asterisk! But in this case, Wikipedia fails to be all things to all people, although it certainly tries hard. Saxophone is a standard additional instrument, and experienced orchestra managers know perfectly well that they need to have a depth chart of sax players just as they do for every other instrument. I don't believe that the London Symphony Orchestra has saxophones in it. Then I guess they don't play Ravel, Debussy, or Gershwin as they were intended to be played. Someone mentioned a very early use by Meyerbeer, but hey, he was an opera guy, so what can you expect!?!! John ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
