Re: Worldwide Fjord Breeders Map
This message is from: Kathleen Prince Agreed! -- Kathleen Prince kathl...@pookiebros.com Pookie Bros. Pet Sitting Professional Pet Care In Your Home! http://www.pookiebros.com On Nov 4, 2010, at 4:36 PM, Theresa Christiansen wrote: > This message is from: Theresa Christiansen > > > It would be fun to see one for Fjord "owners" as well as breeders! > > Theresa Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw Classified Ads: http://tinyurl.com/5b5g2f
Re: Worldwide Fjord Breeders Map
This message is from: Theresa Christiansen It would be fun to see one for Fjord "owners" as well as breeders! Theresa On Nov 4, 2010, at 12:26 PM, Kristen L. Andersen wrote: > This message is from: "Kristen L. Andersen" > > > Wow, there has been some great interest in seeing this expanded. Thank you all for both the on and off list responses. > > The consensus seems to be that folks would love to see it go worldwide, so we can see where all the breeders are located. > > I will work on it a little at a time (it may take a while) region by region by first entering the breeders listed on the registry sites and then putting out an email calling for any additional entries I missed. As some folks noticed you can also add yourself to the map, you are more than welcome to do so! Just make sure to include the following: > > 1. Farm name > 2. First and Last Name > 3. Address (or just the town if you would prefer not to be pin pointed) > 4. Website (or contact info if you do not have a website) > > Feel free to spread the word and share the map. > > Thanks for being such a wonderful community! > > Cheers, > > -Kristen in sunny SW Washington, USA > > Fjord Breeders Map: > > http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&hl=en&msa=0&msid=111395969346383375140 .0004753aff47eed3f1dba&z=6 > > Important FjordHorse List Links: > Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e > FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw > Classified Ads: http://tinyurl.com/5b5g2f > > Theresa Christiansen Little Rock Farm t...@littlerockfarm.com 425 788 2358 206 972 7222 cell Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw Classified Ads: http://tinyurl.com/5b5g2f
Re: Worldwide Fjord Breeders Map
This message is from: "Kristen L. Andersen" Wow, there has been some great interest in seeing this expanded. Thank you all for both the on and off list responses. The consensus seems to be that folks would love to see it go worldwide, so we can see where all the breeders are located. I will work on it a little at a time (it may take a while) region by region by first entering the breeders listed on the registry sites and then putting out an email calling for any additional entries I missed. As some folks noticed you can also add yourself to the map, you are more than welcome to do so! Just make sure to include the following: 1. Farm name 2. First and Last Name 3. Address (or just the town if you would prefer not to be pin pointed) 4. Website (or contact info if you do not have a website) Feel free to spread the word and share the map. Thanks for being such a wonderful community! Cheers, -Kristen in sunny SW Washington, USA Fjord Breeders Map: http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&hl=en&msa=0&msid=111395969346383375140.0004753aff47eed3f1dba&z=6 Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw Classified Ads: http://tinyurl.com/5b5g2f
Re: Map showing Fjord Breeders
This message is from: Melinda Schumacher CoolI would like to see this for the whole continent or worldwide. Melinda Granville OH On Wed, Nov 3, 2010 at 2:08 PM, Kristen L. Andersen wrote: > This message is from: "Kristen L. Andersen" > > > Thank you to the folks that emailed me to have me add you to the list, > it has been updated: > > > http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&hl=en&msa=0&msid=111395969346383375140.0004753aff47eed3f1dba&ll=46.483265,-118.256836&spn=9.442007,19.731445&z=6 > > What do you all think... would you like it to show all of the breeders > in the US and Canada? Over time it could even be expanded to show all > breeders worldwide! It could be a fun, visual resource with an old > fashioned companion list that goes along side it for easy print out > etc... > > -Kristen Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw Classified Ads: http://tinyurl.com/5b5g2f
Re: Map showing Fjord Breeders
This message is from: "Kristen L. Andersen" Thank you to the folks that emailed me to have me add you to the list, it has been updated: http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&hl=en&msa=0&msid=111395969346383375140.0004753aff47eed3f1dba&ll=46.483265,-118.256836&spn=9.442007,19.731445&z=6 What do you all think... would you like it to show all of the breeders in the US and Canada? Over time it could even be expanded to show all breeders worldwide! It could be a fun, visual resource with an old fashioned companion list that goes along side it for easy print out etc... -Kristen On Nov 3, 2010, at 12:40 AM, jerry friz wrote: > This message is from: "jerry friz" > > > Subject: Map of PNW Fjord Breeders > > >> This message is from: "Kristen L. Andersen" >> >> >> > If you could take a peek and let me know if there is anyone not on >> here that should be that would be wonderful! >> >> Good idea Kristen. I might suggest you include owners also. I >> know there are a lot more that you could add. > Cheers, > Jerry in Northern, Ca. > Important FjordHorse List Links: > Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e > FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw > Classified Ads: http://tinyurl.com/5b5g2f Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw Classified Ads: http://tinyurl.com/5b5g2f
Re: Map of PNW Fjord Breeders
This message is from: "jerry friz" Subject: Map of PNW Fjord Breeders This message is from: "Kristen L. Andersen" > If you could take a peek and let me know if there is anyone not on here that should be that would be wonderful! Good idea Kristen. I might suggest you include owners also. I know there are a lot more that you could add. Cheers, Jerry in Northern, Ca. Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw Classified Ads: http://tinyurl.com/5b5g2f
Map of PNW Fjord Breeders
This message is from: "Kristen L. Andersen" Seeing as the list has been so quiet, I though I would ask for help on a little project I have been working on. :-) I recently moved up to the SW Washington/Portland OR area and I am interested in getting to know the breeders in the PNW and becoming more hands on involved with the community as I save my pennies for my future Fjord. If anyone is close by me and needs a volunteer let me know, I am always happy to help and learn! Since I am a visual person I put together a Google map of where the breeders are so I could get an idea of how far away from me they might be. As I was working on this I realized it might be helpful for other folks as well and I would be happy to share and expand it beyond the PNW if anyone is interested. If you could take a peek and let me know if there is anyone not on here that should be that would be wonderful! http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&hl=en&msa=0&msid=111395969346383375140.0004753aff47eed3f1dba&ll=46.483265,-118.256836&spn=9.442007,19.731445&z=6 Thanks so much, -Kristen Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw Classified Ads: http://tinyurl.com/5b5g2f
RE: Import Bashing - Was CEM and Supporting American Fjord Breeders
This message is from: "Mike May, Registrar NFHR" At 01:47 PM 4/22/2009, you wrote: >Mike May, I'll be sending my check to join the NFHR today if I can get the >printer working. Seems I've got some horses to register, hey? Sounds good Karen. We will be looking forward to having you as a new member. Mike === Norwegian Fjord Horse Registry Mike May, Executive Director & Registrar PO Box 685 Webster, NY 14580-0685 Voice 585-872-4114 FAX 585-787-0497 http://www.nfhr.com mailto:regist...@nfhr.com Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw Classified Ads: http://tinyurl.com/5b5g2f
RE: Import Bashing - Was CEM and Supporting American Fjord Breeders
This message is from: Karen Keith For those who care, here goes. What attracted me to this unproven foreign youngstock? I wanted a white dun. That narrows the field drastically, as I'm sure you know, Bonnie, having been there yourself. So much for thousands of Fjords. Even at thousands, what percentage are for sale at any given time? Being able to look outside our borders increases the possibilities. With my foreign import, I was able to visit the farm and see several white duns from foals at side to yearlings, 2yos, 3yos, on up to the sire. I like having choice. I guess that's clear in my previous post. :^) I was able to have it in spades. Additionally, Eike and Suse Schoen-Petersen are long-time Fjord breeders, incredibly knowledgeable of international Fjord bloodlines, great conversationalists and just plain good folk. If you ask Eike a question, you're definitely going to get a full, complete and thoughtful answer and learn way more than you ever expected, whether it's Fjords, cattle, pigs, veterinary, Germany and Europe in general, and even the US. Good fun. Am I a breeder? I guess that depends on how this unproven foreign youngstock works out. But no, not up to now. Am I touchy? Yes, I suppose so. I've just made a huge purchase, some might say a gamble but all horses are a gamble, and I react to terms like "unproven" imported youngstock. How proven is any weanling horse? I guess we can look to its pedigree and parents' records. My filly's dam placed 1st in her 30-day performance test for Fjord mares as a 5yo in Germany. Okay, that's a plus. Last year, as a 13yo, she was declared overall champion horse at a Fjord show (70 horses) in northern Germany near the Danish border. Another plus. Eike recently regaled us with the results of my filly's sire at both Equitana and the German Jubilee Stallion Show at Essen a month or so ago. Plus, plus, plus. Finally, my filly has a record in her own right. As just a wobbly week-old baby, she scored highest of seven Fjord foals at the Fjord branding. Big fish, small pond, but definitely a plus. Then she went on several weeks later to place second in her filly class at the same show where her mama was champion. Again, plus. So is my import unproven? You bet she is. As was your little guy when you brought him home. What's the difference? A few thousand miles in transport when you come down to it. We have high hopes, but let's face it, all horses are a crapshoot. But she is a white dun, and that's what I wanted. And like you and your little guy, I believe my filly will some day be a positive influence on the gene pool of the American Fjord. Only time will tell. Good luck to us both. Finally, I was told by one American breeder, after hearing I was importing, that I was buying a pig in a poke. That put me off even looking at his stock, and I was in the market for a domestic Fjord as well. Found one last week, by the way, but had to go pretty far afield again, just not outside the country. So now I'm anxiously awaiting the arrival of my little "piggy" and her domestic but unproven companion who will act as her nanny while she's growing up. Mike May, I'll be sending my check to join the NFHR today if I can get the printer working. Seems I've got some horses to register, hey? Cheers! Karen, No. VA _ View photos of singles in your area Click Here http://a.ninemsn.com.au/b.aspx?URL=http%3A%2F%2Fdating%2Eninemsn%2Ecom%2Eau%2 Fchannel%2Findex%2Easpx%3Ftrackingid%3D1046247&_t=773166080&_r=Hotmail_Endtex t&_m=EXT Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw Classified Ads: http://tinyurl.com/5b5g2f
Import Bashing - Was CEM and Supporting American Fjord Breeders
This message is from: morrisshado...@aol.com Yes a bit touchy.Congrates on your new arrival. My post was not an import bash, but a batch of questions to help understand as a breeder our fjord market and to get more imput from other breeders. Yes it is a free country and you can buy what you want from where you want. A few questions if you don't mind? Are you a breeder? If yes how many foals do you usually have? What was the deciding factor that made you decide to purchase abroad vs hear?We do have thousands of Fjords and many diverse pedigrees? What made that foal more appealing to you? Yes buying in Canada is different from Europe as they are our neighbor.Keeping profits in the USA ( I was being patriotic and proud to help others grow in my own country) Yes my free choice. And yes I am supportive of improving breeding stock with Licensed proven imports. Bonnie Morris WA, Washington Why would one buy from another country? Because it's a free market, we have free choice in the US. God Bless America. You would choose to buy young stock here; I chose to buy young stock overseas. Is this a great country or what? BTW, since keeping the profits in the USA is noted as a goal, I suppose buying young, unproven stock from a Canadian breeder would be verboten as well. Ouch-ka-bibble! Not very neighborly. Do I seem a bit tetchy on this subject? You betcha. It comes along as I am anxiously awaiting the arrival of my young, unproven European stock. Karen in Northern Virginia, still doing the Snoopy happy dance in anticipation of the new arrival. Just a few days left. _ Looking for a fresh way to share Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw Classified Ads: http://tinyurl.com/5b5g2f
Re: Import Bashing - Was CEM and Supporting American Fjord Breeders
This message is from: Starfire Farm Karen Keith wrote: Karen in Northern Virginia, still doing the Snoopy happy dance in anticipation of the new arrival. Just a few days left. I was lucky enough to see photos of Karen's new filly. She is GORGEOUS. The others are gorgeous as well. Well worth the wait. Beth -- Starfire Farm Beth Beymer and Sandy North http://www.starfirefarm.com Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw Classified Ads: http://tinyurl.com/5b5g2f
Import Bashing - Was CEM and Supporting American Fjord Breeders
This message is from: Karen Keith Gee, it's a good thing the Morgan breeders didn't cop an anti-import attitude back in the 50s when the first Fjords were coming to America. I can see the Morgan people saying, "Hey, whaddaya need a European all-purpose horse for when we've got the American equivalent right here," at least if you believe the Marguerite Henry "Justin Morgan Had a Horse" story. > > It occurs to me, from this piece that you have shared, that the most > comprehensive > control of this infectious disease is to STOP European importation, is that > not correct? > > After all, every Fjord horse on the planet has an indisputably common > ancestry. Therefore, one Fjord is the same as the next, I guess. > So with that in mind it makes me >wonder why one would buy young unproven stock from another country? >When we have plenty to sell here in our own country? I can understand >buying a licensed proven breeding animal that is used to improve the >current stock, but if I were to buy young stock I would also like to >see the my fellow breeders gain from it and keep some of the profits in >the USA. Why would one buy from another country? Because it's a free market, we have free choice in the US. God Bless America. You would choose to buy young stock here; I chose to buy young stock overseas. Is this a great country or what? BTW, since keeping the profits in the USA is noted as a goal, I suppose buying young, unproven stock from a Canadian breeder would be verboten as well. Ouch-ka-bibble! Not very neighborly. Do I seem a bit tetchy on this subject? You betcha. It comes along as I am anxiously awaiting the arrival of my young, unproven European stock. BTW, untrimmed posts don't bother me, so you won't see me cranky about that. Karen in Northern Virginia, still doing the Snoopy happy dance in anticipation of the new arrival. Just a few days left. _ Looking for a fresh way to share photos? Get the new Windows Live Messenger. http://download.live.com/ Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw Classified Ads: http://tinyurl.com/5b5g2f
Supporting American Fjord Breeders?
This message is from: morrisshado...@aol.com With the economic times being the way they are and well train good quality fjords selling for much less than they should be sold. It is also effecting the young untrained (unproven stock). Either not moving or selling for much less . So with that in mind it makes me wonder why one would buy young unproven stock from another country? When we have plenty to sell here in our own country? I can understand buying a licensed proven breeding animal that is used to improve the current stock, but if I were to buy young stock I would also like to see the my fellow breeders gain from it and keep some of the profits in the USA.It would be a great accomplishment if foren markets could be developed better to purchase American stock? As I had a conversation with one of the NFHR committee members and asked their opinion of the quality of our stock verses the stock from overseas. Wether it was better or not.Well to sum it up we have excellent stock. It would be nice to hear other breeders thoughts on improving and promoting the sales of our young stock, so that our breeding stock can actually continue to be bred and be productive. I have seen talk on here about breeders not breeding this year. I suppose that has its pros and cons. Bonnie Morris In finally sunny and now to hot western WA :0) Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw Classified Ads: http://tinyurl.com/5b5g2f
Good Breeders--Take a bow!
This message is from: "Misha & Michael" Debbie sorry you have had a bad experience with a breeder. Was the horse ill when you bought her and was it something that was missed in the vet check? That is so sad she must be put down. :0( The down side of loving our horses as much as we do is losing them. I have been fortunate, and maybe you can call me Pollyanna Pony, but I have purchased several horses over the 16 years I have breeding, from all Good Breeders. These breeders have exactly represented the horses as they are/were and I have been Very happy with every one of them. If some of those horses have moved on--that is due to normal moving around of horses that breeders do. So those people I have purchased horses from can pat themselves on the back. And those persons who have bred the horses (if not the farm I bought them from) can also take a bow. They have all been good sound fun beautiful and athletic ponies and I am lucky that I have had and do have the joy of sharing my life with them! There are some other good breeders on this list from whom I would like to purchase horses, even those that don't seem to want to sell any--lol. But I must keep my numbers very small so I can only dream. :0) Thanks for the info on the PMU racket scam everybody. Lordy. Sometimes people are jaw dropping unbelievable. There are breeders on this list I regard fondly even if I have never met them and it's great to read their words and see photos of their ponies in the Herald or online. And rest assured, I do recommend you (and you know who you are :0) to people when they are asking for a horse I do not have to sell. So thanks Good Breeders, pat yourself on the back, take a bow and carry on making lovely Fjords! Misha Shota Fjords Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw Classified Ads: http://tinyurl.com/5b5g2f
For Breeders
This message is from: "Kelly MacDonald" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > This is a website that I am cross posting from Fugly Horse of the Day. A > great idea! http://www.horsereunions.com/welcome.html Kelly > - Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw Classified Ads: http://tinyurl.com/5b5g2f
Feed questions for breeders
This message is from: "Marcia Pace" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I would appreciate any information from experienced Fjord breeders regarding feeding weanlings through age 2. I have numerous books regarding horse nutrition; however, they contain a huge range of advice. Unfortunately, none of the information is Fjord specific or consistent and ranges from feed your weanling grass or hay only to supply your weanling with unlimited amounts of grain in a creep feeder. Most of these books also contain dramatic photos of youngsters with DOD that may have occurred from too much feed or too little feed, etc.! Marcia Pace Ellensburg, WA
Attention SERIOUS BREEDERS!!!!
This message is from: Kathryn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> A week or so ago I wrote a message regarding my three year old Stallion "Odin". I said that I would entertain any "resonable Offer". We are moving from Wisconsin to Tennessee and down-sizing our operation. Unfortunitly, that was the wrong thing to say. As everyones idea of "resonable offer" is different. And I have been reminded of that by many of you! Thankfully though, the response gave me the opportunity to speak to some really nice people who offered some good advice. I need to clarify things a bit. First my stallion is not just any stallion! He IS the son of Green Valley Farm's Fernando. Who is one of the most well known and respected breeding stallions in Denmark or the US from what I have seen and heard.And my stallion is the ONLY ungelded son of Fernando. He is also the son of Green Valleys fabulous mare Sonja. Most of you will know who she is as well! What a mare! I fell in love with her instantly! Sonja's mom is Janita's Ronja, another amazing mare! We took Odin to be evaluated as a weanling where he recieved a high red. I would have taken heim back this August, but had some personal family things cancel the trip for me. I am SURE Odin would have recieved blue. He is amazing! I started him under saddle lightly in the winter. He is now doing some light Dressage work, trail riding, and has done trot poles and low cavaletti. He learns fast! I ride him next to mares in heat and he is a perfect gentleman. He goes out in groups or alone, doesn't matter. He DOESN'T even push on FENCES! He is KIND, GENTLE, & AFFECTIONATE, yet a great athelete and has GREAT PRESENCE! He is a pride to own. We bought him as a weanling for $7000.00, so NO a$3000.00 offer is not a resonable offer! I am however willing to sell him for less that I believe he is worth. I am in a situation with the move, a critically ill son, other children growing up and moving on with their lives, etc. where it is just seeming necessary to simplify life in a big way. However, I won't give him away. He is too fine a fellow. So if there is someone out there who wants to IMPROVE or ADD TO a HIGH QUALITY breeding operation, please contact me. I want to see Odin Happy and his talents both being used and passed on. k. p.s. I have a two year old photo on my web site (breeding tab) www.pvalley.net I will try to get some new photos soon. Pioneer Valley Stables Riding School & Training Center W7225 Hustad Valley Rd. New Glarus, WI. 53574-9731 608-527-2566
Breeders List? Whether to breed at all?
This message is from: "Vanessa N Weber" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Well as an unexpected newbie to the breed I'm glad it came up here. I didn't even know there was a Fjord breeders forum! I don't even know where to find it! I've bred horses (Lipizzans) and dogs in the past and have been encouraged to breed my Fjords, but I'm not sure that I want to yet, if ever. I'm glad this topic came up on this list. It is providing much food for thought. Just out of curiousity, how does one find the Fjord breeders list and what is the criteria for joining? Best, Vanessa N Weber [EMAIL PROTECTED] ---Original Message--- From: Skeels, Mark A (GE Healthcare) Date: 08/11/05 22:40:39 To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com Subject: RE: Research on behalf of Fjords This message is from: "Skeels, Mark A \(GE Healthcare\)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED] com> It may be that the Fjord breeders forum would be a more ideal place to hash these things out, verses the general fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com forum. Maybe where this whole thread about genetic pool depletion, yada, yada, yada should have started to begin with. Personally I see maybe 20-30 years ago our stallion/ breeding pool may have been more genetically limited, and concern for this sort of thing may have been more valid back then. But I also see us going the right direction, More blood lines, more diversity, and the family tree going horizontal verses vertical. 10 years ago I occasionally saw father/daughter Mother/son breeding, but not much then, more common though was some Grandparent/Grandchild breeding. And I think that was because of the lack of either genetic variance in breeding stock, geographic location, or just people that didn't want to pay $1000 breeding fee, but wanted to make a buck or have a cute little baby. Unfortunately the people I saw doing it were the then big time breeders and not the 2 horse shows. They had 8 mares, and they were gonna have 8 foals to sell. Now I rarely hear of it and the guidelines to stay registered prohibit this sort of thing today, if it is enforced. Any how, a good direction here in the USofA, a true positive trend. I think education is the key, especially for new horse owners/breeders. Showing them how to read the registration papers/ family tree etc, and the NFHR guidelines regarding breeding. I think most people want to do right by genetics, as well as get a good quality, sound, mentally stable horse when they breed. Others just look at the bucks. Also remember education is a on going process and we must all continue this path thru life. I'm not to proud to say I still learn things, every day. Just like reading these forums. I figured it was sorta nice to have my brown stallion and mares always produce greys. Well at least 6 so far. Anyhow I thought it would be a plus such that if someone wanted to breed their grey stallion to my grey mare's, but I learned that this could possibly produce a undesirable KVIT. Still don't know what that is all about, I have heard about a "lethal white" but not sure if that is a KVIT or not? Still learning and need to learn more on this. If two greys could produce a KVIT, why couldn't two Browns? Could two of the same of any color? And what is so bad about a KVIT anyhow? Is it just a color gene thing, or something else that will handicap the horse? I need details in plain English. That's how I learn best. Maybe, as a source of education, the breeders group could come up with a couple pages on good breeding guidelines, which would be given or sent to each new owner of a registered breeding capable Fjord, either as the seller or as paperwork that would come with registration papers when you register a new horse under your name. Just my 2cents, and that may be all it's worth. Mark in sunny, somewhat dry, but the rain's a comin, Helena Montana -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2005 12:33 PM To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com Subject: Re: Research on behalf of Fjords This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Some really constructive ideas here. What about the possibilities of getting some of the breeders to participate in roundtables or presentations which could then be distributed via all the wonderful electronic media which we have. Comments? [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type Image/jpeg which had a name of faint_grain.jpg]
Breeders Dream
This message is from: "Green Valley Farm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Just received this message from a wonderful new Fjord owner. She recently bought GVF Jordbaer from Green Valley Farm. This is what makes breeding and training all worth while. Hello! I just had to email you after this weekend. I had a fantastic trail ride on Saturday afternoon with Jordbaer (Ture stayed at home). I went with four other folks who trail ride around here a lot and who wanted to show me all the local great trails I can get to from my house without a trailer. We were gone for hours, though beautiful woods, fields, crossing rivers (!!!), up and down steep inclines, hopping over logs, cantering all over the place. We saw foxes and deer and birds. Nothing really phased her. They were all on their big brown horses and were SO impressed with her. They could not believe how brave and well-mannered and adorable she was and that she was only three! She was so great, did everything I asked, took good care of me and looked like she was having a great time herself! We cantered a lot, more than I had ever before with her and it felt great! I am so thrilled with her--she is the best! She got lots of hugs and a good rubdown afterward. Just wanted to let you know what a fantastic time we are having! Thanks to you and Mac again for making her what she is to me -- a lovely companion, partner and friend. Elisa Happy Holidays to all from Green Valley Farm Sophie & Howard Fiedler
breeders committee Amy's disclosure...
This message is from: "Ruth Bushnell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> a few words on behalf of those who worked on the Breeder's committee.. it is only appropriate to defend our sorry selves =) I am assuming the secrecy embargo has now been lifted, because of committee chairperson's (Amy's) comments, and that we are now allowed to discuss the issue of the subject matter therein, since she has single-handedly declared the committee to be defunct. after the committee was established (by an invitation to all breeders) two people volunteered to draft a "code of ethics," Carol Rivoire and Lori Albrough, then I additionally volunteered thinking it was too few to write a draft of that import (and I do have experience in writing.) I protested that draft representation might be better served by a more equal distribution of membership representation, say for example... a rep person from each promotional division throughout.. rather than two members both from Canada.. Lori found this innocuous observation offensive and quit. Shortly after the debate on what to call the draft, "code of ethics" or "suggested guidelines for breeders," Carol had to go south for a few months... which is not to say that these two ladies didn't contribute also, some of their initial suggestions were used within the draft too. fortunately, then Joe Glick stepped up and it was his rough draft that became the draft template, Fred Pack volunteered as well and it was he that kept us on track with the ensuing changes, errors, and omissions. There were additionally several other breeders (I'm sorry I can't mention all of them) who contributed ideas and we finally arrived with what Fred posted yesterday... then there was silence... I thought it meant that we had finished.. I thought we were waiting for a word from chairperson Amy... when I asked her offline if the draft had been presented to the BOD, she informed me that she thought the document was "stuffy." (??) and that was the last word until this List letter, stating that she would hand pick a new committee of few. I am trying to make this as painlessly brief as possible but I probably should mention why the term "code of ethics" was repeatedly debated, and finally discarded. Since the fairly recent Oxley Act, which holds corporations fiscally accountable for their own laws, it is possible for just anyone with a principle grievance to sue individual (committee) board persons over their "code of ethics," (any single person serving on the BOD or breeder's committee.) and whereas the majority percentage of all lawsuits are based on principle I read, this is a very real concern! "code" means "law," therefore it would be NFHR BOD and Breeder Committee "law," and anyone that perhaps bought a horse and had an "ethical" grievance could in turn sue INDIVIDUALS who represent that "law." (individual chairperson assets) from what I gathered from Internet research, that even if the BOD or Committee has "Director's and Officer's" Liability insurance, there still has to be a liability limit clause within the bylaws, but I am by no means an expert in this realm, (that's why I urged Amy to contact an expert.) at the time the draft was put together, I believed that it was the majority consensus that using the document title, "Suggested Ethical Guidelines for Breeders," was the best possible insurance for avoiding officer member lawsuits. I cherish objectivity, therefore your comments are not taken personally Amy, nor does it greatly affect me that the work we offered has been unprofessionally broadcast trashed in an OFF-committee post. Those of us who saw this project through to the end did our best, and that's really all that can be required of any of us. I believe that the work that is done on any committee must be done for the longterm good of the Norwegian Fjord and those that love them, not for personal approval. What does concern me most about your post is your declaration that YOU will handpick a new committee of a likeminded few (small wonder that someone may have speculated on a hidden agenda?) as this clearly is not fair representation of the general corporation membership on an issue as important as breeder ethics, or a logo neither for that matter. My comment last week about change within an organization occurring from the bottom up, not from the top down, stands... and Dennis is right that this is an IDEAL only, but it rightfully should be the IDEAL that the NFHR BOD strives to achieve, by whatever means necessary! this IDEAL of a general membership representation can only occur if individual members are offered a chance. if this is not how we're now operating we need to turn the equation over! Thanks to Steve for at least offering everyone a voice in NFHR concerns.. where would we be without this
Horse Expo - breeders and "for sale"
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Listers; To "advertise" at the Minnesota Horse Expo... One page only - front Pictures and print preferred - more appealing to have pictures 50 copies only - must send copies - we will not make copies!! We will compile a "booklet" format to give to interested parties - no cost - however, won't refuse a small donation:) We'll put it towards food for the expo volunteers:) SEND TO: asap, please!! Linda Lottie 9310 Bechtold Road Corcoran, MN 55374 MUST RECEIVE BY: March 15, 2003 Thanks, Linda Lottie
In regards to Fjord rescue and Fjords hurting the U.S. breeders at auction
This message is from: "Deb" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> First I guess this is only pointing out the obvious but "Fjords are already cross-bred". There is no stopping it. That is it. Done deal. We can do what we can to try and decrease the amount of cross breeding but you will never be able to stop it. Secondly unless a person is a member of NFHR you can't tell them not to cross breed. That would be preposterous. Recently I believe I mentioned about a friend having a Fjord/Percheron cross who was bred to a Belgian last spring. Well, I now have the Fjord/Percheron pregnant mare. Lars adores her so he doesn't seem to have a problem with a cross bred Fjord :-) She is beautiful, sweet and is gorgeous to watch when she runs. Yes she runsLars trots as fast as his legs will carry him to keep up. It is so cute to watch them :-) In regards to the post about Fjords being cheaper to buy and hurting the American breeders. I can tell you this. I heard from two folks that also had read my post regarding the Fjords that I saw at the Hermiston auction in October. One of the folks knew at least one of the Fjords and where it went. I can tell you this as I spoke for quite a while to the guy that brought them down and to the guy that is in partnership with the first guy. They took the best looking Fjord and showed that Fjord in the auction first. They rode on him and did tricks on him to show off the temperment. Once the people were convinced these could be good horses the rest of the Fjords came out. I was told one person bought a Fjord and didn't care about the breed. They loved the temperment. One of the Fjords, I was told, went for about $1500 or so. Most likely the others did as well. Except maybe for one that almost looked like a Fjord/Mule/quarter horse cross or something. So that gives you an idea of what might happen. Deb Merry Merry Christmas everyone
Rescues Effecting Breeders
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hello everyone, I do wish to point out something here that I am not sure most of us have considered as of yet since this is such a new occurrence for most of us. In my opinion, what is going to hurt breeders the most is not us rescuing these Fjords and figuring out where they came from, but when the general public looking for a Fjord finds out they can buy one at an auction if they are patient enough. For example, the 3 Fjords we just rescued cost us $1 per pound, which per Fjord came to approximately $833.33. This price included transportation from Alberta, which without stops, is approximately 2692 kms, whatever that converts to in miles. Regardless, that is a hefty transport bill for just one horse, not counting three. We know some of the history of these three Fjords. The dealer in Alberta purchased them from an auction "down south". He then sold them in another auction in Westlock, Alberta. They were then transported all the way to the slaughter facility in Ontario. We do not know if they were at any previous auctions before the dealer purchased them, it is entirely possible. The slaughter facility in Ontario told me point blank that if we could have located them while still in Alberta, we would have saved ourselves a pretty penny as we had to pay for transportation on top of the meat price per pound. The POINT is how much do you all think these three Fjords sold for at the original auction? I would bet approximately $200 a piece, if even that much. THAT is what is going to hurt American breeders. So, we can either do something about it now or wait until the situation is uncontrollable. Lynda C. Welch [EMAIL PROTECTED] Vice President, Norwegian Fjord Representative For donations to save a Fjord, please visit PayPal.com and enter [EMAIL PROTECTED] United Equine Foundation http://www.unitedequinefoundation.org/homepage.htm Lynda and Daniel Bailey's Norwegian Fjords Quality Fjords--Equine Transportation--Hand-braided Tack & Accessories White Cloud, MI 231-689-9902 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://hometown.aol.com/baileysfjords/
RE: breeders in Norway
This message is from: "Dagrun Aarsten" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Hi Patti Jo, very interesting indeed. Up until just one or two years ago, you could still get a registered foal as long as you were using your own stallion. Now the rules have changed. I was quite surprised to hear what you said. For the people in Briksdalen, the tourist business is inherited along with the farm and is extremely lucrative. So they need to have a safe driving horse that looks like a fjord, but they don't need papers. That might be a reason. Maybe this happens much more than I know about? Most breeders breed to sell the one foal they produce every year, so it is not in their interest to produce unregistered foals. So glad to hear the "problem boy" is doing better! Dagrun, San Jose, Ca > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Dave & Patti Jo > Walter > Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 3:31 PM > To: fjord horse > Subject: breeders in Norway > > > This message is from: "Dave & Patti Jo Walter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Just had to throw in our observation when my husband and I were in Norway > acouple of years ago. All very small farms indeed and Dagrun was > very correct > about almost everything, but what I found out shocked me. NOT > every mare is > bred to an approved stallion! There are stallions out there that > have one) > either not qualified and the owner left them in tact or two) > never brought it > to an evaluation. > > We were taking a carriage ride up the Briksdalen(probably spelt it wrong) > glacier. Only Fjord horses are used with the carriages. It was > a really neat > experience. Anyway our driver said she had a Fjord mare that was > due to foal. > We asked what the name of the stallion was, we asked what score > he recieved in > his evaluation and also the mares. She said neither were > evaluated. I asked > if a lot of people do this, or do most only use approved stallions? Her > response, just like any other person across the world, "if you > don't want to > pay a high stud fee, you will use your friends or neighbors." > She said there > were quite a few stallions unapproved around. I was shocked as I thought > EVERYONE followed the guidelines, but people are people no matter > where they > live, they will do what they want, and they will find the > loopholes. Sorry to > bust anyones bubble of Norway. It was just when I read Dagrun's > post I felt to > clarify and speak what I learned to be the truth over there. They have, > perhaps a smaller portion of the same problem we have here. You know the > funniest thing, their stud fees are dirt cheap. > > Patti Jo Walter > Francis Creek Fjords > > PS an update on the gelding I had in for training that was > totally unsafe. He > is doing great! He is pretty much back to his old self, there are a few > things I wouldn't want to do with him yet, but he's been totally > willing and > cooperative and steady for a couple months now. I'm very happy > for him!! God > answered prayers. :-)
breeders in Norway
This message is from: "Dave & Patti Jo Walter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Just had to throw in our observation when my husband and I were in Norway acouple of years ago. All very small farms indeed and Dagrun was very correct about almost everything, but what I found out shocked me. NOT every mare is bred to an approved stallion! There are stallions out there that have one) either not qualified and the owner left them in tact or two) never brought it to an evaluation. We were taking a carriage ride up the Briksdalen(probably spelt it wrong) glacier. Only Fjord horses are used with the carriages. It was a really neat experience. Anyway our driver said she had a Fjord mare that was due to foal. We asked what the name of the stallion was, we asked what score he recieved in his evaluation and also the mares. She said neither were evaluated. I asked if a lot of people do this, or do most only use approved stallions? Her response, just like any other person across the world, "if you don't want to pay a high stud fee, you will use your friends or neighbors." She said there were quite a few stallions unapproved around. I was shocked as I thought EVERYONE followed the guidelines, but people are people no matter where they live, they will do what they want, and they will find the loopholes. Sorry to bust anyones bubble of Norway. It was just when I read Dagrun's post I felt to clarify and speak what I learned to be the truth over there. They have, perhaps a smaller portion of the same problem we have here. You know the funniest thing, their stud fees are dirt cheap. Patti Jo Walter Francis Creek Fjords PS an update on the gelding I had in for training that was totally unsafe. He is doing great! He is pretty much back to his old self, there are a few things I wouldn't want to do with him yet, but he's been totally willing and cooperative and steady for a couple months now. I'm very happy for him!! God answered prayers. :-)
Backyard breeders in Norway
This message is from: "Dagrun Aarsten" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Hello everyone, just wanted to add that practically all fjord breeders in Norway are "backyard breeders". There aren't any big fjord breeding farms that I know of. The typical fjord breeder in Norway is a farmer having a small farm and one single mare, that is usually of very good quality (or in his eyes, the best of all mares in the world). I say "he" because most of these fjord breeders are men. The mare is sometimes used for work on the farm or for pleasure driving, and occasional riding by children and grandchildren. For these people, horses are a dear hobby, and their dream is to one day produce an approved stallion. I guess this happens about once in their lifetime on average, but it keeps driving them to careful research about the best stallion for their mare, and all these people are very knowledgeable. Fjords are their passion, and the evaluation in Nordfjordeid is the big event of the year. These mares usually have one foal every year. Fortunately, a selection of quality stallions are available to most breeers since we don't have the large distances you have here in the US. The other category is families with one fjord mare who wants an offspring of their dear fjord friend. These people might be less educated about the breed standards, conformation etc, but again they always breed to an approved stallion. Anyway, just to say that "backyard breeding" has produced good quality in Norway for many years. Dagrun in San Jose, Ca, where we just had the first rain in 6 months - plenty enough to make up for all that time. Fjords are happy and dirty and roll in the mud all day long!
breeders - of any kind
This message is from: "Salt Lick Stables" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Hmmm...I like the term 'neophyte'. Has a sort of other-worldly ring to it. Since we are to soon relocate to a new facility, shall I build the house at the back of the acreage so I can be a 'front-yard breeder'? Or would that be a 'front-yard neophyte'? Larson, still laughing in NM [demime 0.99c.8 removed an attachment of type image/gif which had a name of IMSTP.gif]
Backyard Breeders & Fjord Prices
This message is from: "Salt Lick Stables" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I may have been the first to use (or misuse) the term 'backyard breeder' in this ongoing discussion concerning Fjord prices. No derogation was intended It is a term that has long been used in the industry to refer to small breeders who choose not to promote their stallions - which they generally maintain for the service of their own mares and an occasional contract mare. Many, like myself, do not even own stallions. We rely on purchased stud services to produce two or three foals each year. Being a small breeder does not imply ineptitude. Some of the QH Legend sires were the product of such small breeding concerns. Many Fjord breeders in the US are 'small breeders' - it does not necessarily follow that their stock is not of good quality. However, at least in the AQHA and APHA industry, the ever increasing number of small breeders translates on some level to lower pricing - in many cases because the small breeder cannot always afford to maintain a large sales list and 'culling' their herd to reduce the drain on their farm budget is of paramount importance. A 'reduced price' does not have to mean 'poor quality . Though I beg pardon for the offensive term, 'backyard breeder', I still believe that, as more individuals engage in small farm breeding, the Fjord market will ultimately feel the impact. Historically, the same has happened in most other rare livestock markets and will continue to do so. That is, if we all survive the stock market ;-) Jo Larson New Mexico [demime 0.99c.8 removed an attachment of type image/gif which had a name of IMSTP.gif]
Re: "backyard breeders..."
This message is from: "ruth bushnell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Come on Ruthie, don't mince words, just come right out and say what you > mean tee hee > You cracked me up Peg =))). made my day! Thanks to Jann too. Ruthie, nw mt
"backyard breeders..."
This message is from: "Knutsen Fjord Farm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Come on Ruthie, don't mince words, just come right out and say what you mean tee hee Seriously, though, I support your post. The term "backyard breeder" has been used in a derogatory manner to suggest that folks who can get hold of any male and female [Fjord, Golden Retriever, etc] will take advantage of their popularity and breed for the $. [more fools, they...] It also has been used to suggest that the B.Y. breeder either does know about or doesn't care about bloodlines, soundness, screening for possible hereditary problems, and so on. While this may occasionally be the case, I do not believe that it is very often true. A couple of examples - we produce an average of one or two foals/year from Flotren or Erlend. None this year, three next season, if all goes well. We have not offered any for sale in utero because we want to see the babies and get to know them first. And we set up our place so that we can see the horses in our "back yard" from the house. So we might qualify for the label. Also, at least half of the folks who breed their mares to Erlend have only one or two mares, and do not necessarily want to sell the babies or even show them. Yet they usually have researched available stallions and been thoughtful in their choices so that they would get a good combination of genes in their baby. Most request our video of His Majesty [...oops, ad...!] which we send for them to keep. By no means have all of the mares been Evaluated, though we strongly encourage this. More will do so as the Evaluations become more frequent and available. I have been quite impressed by the thoughtfulness and approach of these mare owners who could be labeled "backyard breeders." Phew! I didn't mean to go on so much, but I guess this a sentitive subject for me. Thanks, Ruthie. Bye - Peg Peg Knutsen - Ellensburg, WA http://www.eburg.com/~kffjord/
Backyard Breeders # 2
This message is from: "Janne Myrdal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Way to go Ruthie!! Janne
Re: breeders
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In a message dated 11/19/2001 10:21:02 AM Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > Well if you actually file the lease agreement with me & pay the fee for it > then yes. Otherwise the breeder is still the mare owner at the time of > That was my understanding, and the way the APHA and AQHA handle leases. Even then, the new breeder (leasee) is listed as such. i.e. Jane Doe- leasee. Lou
Breeders doing basic training with young fjords
This message is from: "Dudley and Karen Haines" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Amen Patti Jo! Having lived through buying and training a young unhandled fjord, I agree with you 100%. Don't get me wrong, my Jani and I are "til death do we part". She is now a very reliable mount, but we had a l-o-n-g row to hoe. The only thing I would add to your comments are that, in my humble opinion, breeders have a responsibility to try to match horses to prospective buyers. In my case, I was way too inexperienced to buy a yearling. Unfortunately, I was too inexperienced to even know that! I could have benefited greatly from some (kindly put, please) words of advice about why a trained horse might have been better for me at that time. I tend to be quite tenacious and learned what I needed to learn, but my point is, it makes it harder than it has too be on the human and the horse. Karen Haines (just back from a wonderful trail ride on Miss Jani) > This message is from: "Dave Walter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> We do a big > injustice in telling people how calm and easy going these horses are, and > neglect to tell them that they are also a horse and need to be trained and > treated like one! I work with young Fjords, let me tell you, these horses > can be harder to handle than other breeds. They are heavy, strong and at > times stubborn. I LOVE Fjords, can not see myself with any other breed and > yet there is a down side to them as well. I am a very positive person and I > don't like talking negative but I also am very truthful and in the wrong > hands or the wrong training, these horses will hurt someone, just like any > other horse. Since I'm on a soapbox I am also saddened by a lot of breeders > breeding and not handling there young stock. Another big injustice to the > breed. These are wonderful horses, but when you sell a 600 pound or larger > untrained horse, it reflects on the breed. Sure it will let you put a > halter on it, maybe even let you "lead" it around, more likely it just wants > to go that way. But have you ever disciplined that animal, or trained it to > do what YOU want it to do, even when it didn't want to? I have seen several > very naughty Fjords and I know other trainers have seen several as well, > mostly due to lack of handling, some are bad breedings. Most come around and > make wonderful mounts, but at a cost to the breed. Please work with your > animals, if not for the sake of the person who might own it after you, than > for the sake of the horse, you bred it, you be responsible for it. > Patti Jo Walter > Francis Creek Fjords > Two Rivers WI
Re: Teresa's Rivoire post/Montana breeders
This message is from: "Sanders" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> OH RUTHIE! If anyone said anything bad about your farm I'd sock them in the nose! My goodness! And you are right, the name escapes me because it wasn't anyone we know. Listen up List - Montana raises top notch horses! Uuuurgh. Them was fight'n words. -T >I just want to speak up on behalf of all Montana Fjord Breeders who are the >best in the west; proclaim our innocence and defend our integrity! >Ruthie, nw mt Ruthie, I'm sure that anyone whom has ever spoken with you, seen your farm or seen your stock, would know good and well that the unscrupulous person who sold that sickly horse was definitely not you or any other reputable Montana breeder. It makes you feel bad when something like that happens at all, and even a little worse, I guess, when it's your home state. Such a shame. Judy
Re: Teresa's Rivoire post/Montana breeders
This message is from: "truman matz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I can't say that I recall where they said the horse >was from, but I do well recall that the name of the seller wasn't any >Montana Fjord breeder that I have ever heard of and I thought at the time it >was simply an unknown individual person of parts unknown. >I just want to speak up on behalf of all Montana Fjord Breeders who are the >best in the west; proclaim our innocence and defend our integrity! >Ruthie, nw mt Ruthie, I'm sure that anyone whom has ever spoken with you, seen your farm or seen your stock, would know good and well that the unscrupulous person who sold that sickly horse was definitely not you or any other reputable Montana breeder. It makes you feel bad when something like that happens at all, and even a little worse, I guess, when it's your home state. Such a shame. Judy
Re: breeders
This message is from: "Nathan Lapp" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> My farrier recently told me of a quote from an article which went something >> like -- the countries with the best horses EAT their horses!! Probably true. I knew an old gentleman who bred rare breed pigs and also stock dogs. He said it's easier to breed good pigs because you can eat your mistakes. Of course that doesn't mean we should start eating dogs and horses. It just demonstrates that we can do the breed a favor by passing tough judgment on our most prized breeding stock. Tomorrow morning we have two young Australian Shepherd brood bitches scheduled for spaying. One is too silly for her age and the other doesn't conceive half the time when we breed her. We haven't been put to the test yet with the Fjords, but I think we're prepared. Barbara Lyn Lapp Family Fjords
Re: breeders
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi Gean, Pat, Gayle, everyone, I wonder, what constitutes a "good horse", anyway? Is this a human perception? Is it possible those horses we find most undesirable would in fact be the same horses that would thrive in the wild? I believe someone brought up on the list the old Norse practice of stallion fighting, else I read it through my studies, or possibly both are true. Anyway, I would suppose, if we really wished to see the best of the best of stallions, we would put them all together in a natural herd environment. I have the feeling we would all be utterly amazed at the outcome. As most of you might know, we at Bailey's are involved to a very small extent in the rescue horse world (we are now up to four rescues). The slaughter of horses in our country is very inhumane and extremely cruel. The very idea of "canning" a horse, or making a horse a "meal" is very sad to me. Afterall, we are the ones who have chosen to take the natural environment away from the horse, and do it ourselves. Surely there must be a better solution to our "mistakes" than the overly popular slaughter house! I suppose if the killing of the horses were not so cruel, I might not be so offended by the notion, but I still wonder if we have the right to sentence to death the very horses we create. Lynda Bailey's Norwegian Fjord Horse Farm White Cloud, MI
Re: breeders
This message is from: "Jean Gayle" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sheesh! Pat. That reference to better meat than mount is scary. We have a very good trainer here who has a habit of saying, "This horse should be canned, he will never be a good horse." Her first impressions are very often off-base, and I keep hoping no one takes her literally. Jean Jean Gayle Aberdeen, WA [Authoress of "The Colonel's Daughter" Occupied Germany 1946 TO 1949 ] http://www.techline.com/~jgayle Barnes & Noble Book Stores
Re: breeders
This message is from: Pat <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Gayle, Your last post hit the nail on the head. I've always wanted to tell this story, which sums up what I believe to be a true breeder: Without mentioning names, I was working for this breeder, he had been around since the early 30's and actually had something to do with the organization of AQHA in 1940, anyway they had 87 broodmares and 6 stallions, one old stallion died and they were wanting a replacement. A two year old was selected and started riding and campaigning him. He was really something to see, he was high point RMQHA Jr western pleasure horse as a 3 yr old. Won a couple big futurities and even National Western Stock Show, against some big names that year. I got his Superior pleasure in no time and he always placed in conformation with a few Reserves. One problem, a bit of a dispositon problem, and really nothing exceptionally bad, but enough that he was gelded midway through his 2nd show season, and eventually became a great youth gelding. You might think with 87 broodmares, this wasn't a big deal because they then had many others to choose from, but that wasn't the case. They were VERY selective in what was kept. Mares as well as colts. The other stallions were kept in the main show barn, all were AQHA Champions, were handled like the other 30 some in the barn, had turnout lots with in the main group. Everyone handled the guys, lead in and out everyday, all except one was hand bred. I don't know, I just think that was a good sign of a good breeder, if everything's not there, geld it. I firmly believe there are alot of horses out there that would make for a better meal that a mount. Pat Holland [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Hi Everyone, > > I have this morning off from the barn so will try to catch up on responses to > several posts from this past week. > > Beth, what days will you be performing? My husband has some friends in > Denver. I just might be able to 'convince' him that we need to go visit > them?! By Jan. I am usually ready for a change of venue -- something, > anything! > > Catherine, May is a tough time for horse owners (particularly stallion > owners) to leave their premises with foaling and breeding underway. Think > your participation in an Evaluation may be hindered. Think you'd have > bigger, better numbers if you chose a different time of year. Many mares > will be due to foal or have brand new babies by their side. Many folks > wouldn't want to transport very far with tiny babies. > > May and June are our PRIMARY months for breeding and foaling. Schedules get > pretty intense. Mother nature doesn't give a rip when cycling mares or > foaling babies, about us needing to be gone for a few days!! As an example, > at my Eval. held in July, I had to dash home with Dusty in the evening to > breed a straggler mare. Fortunately, it wasn't far to travel. Had it been a > long distance, I probably would have had to forego the Evaluation in order to > fulfill my breeding obligation. > > So, my suggestion would be -- the later the better. > > Misha, in regard to the recent dialog on Natural Horsemanship. I took the > folks from my barn to see Monty Roberts when he was here in Eugene. I had > read his book and had seen him on TV a couple of times. I found him and it > (his methods) "interesting." As I was watching the entire 'show' unfold, I > was thinking that much of what he was saying and demonstrating, was nothing > new. His techniques were the same things that successful "HORSEMEN -ooops - > "HORSEPERSONS" have learned and practiced down through time. He even stated > that in his book and said it verbally during his demo, but think that most > folks glossed over or entirely missed those statements. > > The only difference between him, John Lyons, Linda Tellington Jones, Parelli, > etc., and the rest of us (trainers) is that each of them have invented their > own personal "equine hula hoop" if you will, and they are MARKETING it! > Smart move on their part! > > Each of them does have some valuable information to pass along and I am sure > they have helped a lot of folks to better understand the type of > relationships that can be developed between humans and their horses. > Education is certainly a key to success. > > Not any one tool can fix every problem, but if one can glean bits and pieces > from each of these programs, it will certainly help to make better > 'horsepersons' and probably some happier horses too. Folks will be less > likely to inadvertantly be torturing their equine friends!! > > As a trainer, I have set a personal goal of spending time each year either > with another trainer, or attending demonstrations like Monty's, or purchasing > a new video, simply to expand my own knowledge, to keep up with new > techniques, etc. > > I found the posts regarding horses, music, and cadence really interesting. > When I decided to put together a rou
Breeders
This message is from: "Catherine Lassesen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> We can talk about the Breeder being the one to select but then we will have Barn sour breeders. The best education is to go to Norway and see what "they throw away" and call "No Good". Once home we evaluated our stallion prospects and allowed them both to breed. We watched and evaluated again after allowing them to be stallions. ONE got CUT, the other we are allowing to go into his next year. Many Breeders would not have CUT the one we did... many would have said and will say we made a mistake. He was beautiful and correct and and ... But He had a brain of an idiot when it came to breeding and handling when mares were in season. In Norway... stallions are excused the first day for being an idiot. they are not even tested... bad in the stall... GELDED immediately... Bet this message has some stallions watching their balls! Catherine L.
Breeders Group
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Dear List, Anyone breeding a Fjord horse is a breeder, Anyone who wants to further their education about it or take care to keep the breed pure is a breeder, or breeder at heart. I think Carol's heart is in the right place, sometimes some of us feel we are not being heard. For example when the breed standard was coming out, it had been a long difficult procedure and the registry wanted to wrap it up. Some of us had some last minute, very important issues we wanted to be considered. We thought about this group as sort of a sub group to the NFHR to ban together to be heard. Craig and I decided best to work within the NFHR guidelines first, We found a forum to get the info to everyone, The Herald, and then tried again to write to the board and the president of the NFHR. They did hold off and review what we and others had to say, they did consider it when going forward with the Breed Standard, It was the right way to go about it I think. I think it is best not to splinter the group if things can be worked out. I would hate to see people over committing to to many groups and not getting anything done. How about allowing Carol or others on those committees? Can't you always use one more volunteer I never heard of " no we do not need anymore help" Just some thoughts. Laura of the Hollow
Re: Breeders & profit
This message is from: Mike May <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> At 07:19 AM 5/16/99 -0700, you wrote: I doubt anyone does make a living 100% off of breeding. Carol, you buy and sell horses, you import and sell, you have horses on consignment, you sell driving vacations, driving lessons. You are a person that makes a living off of horses in general not just breeding them. Lets give a FULL PICTURE to the people on the list of how our industry is. Exactly Catherine.
Breeders & profit
This message is from: "Catherine Lassesen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Congratulations Carol on the profit making in the Equine Industry. Not many PROFESSIONALS can say that. Specially sole breeders, unless they own racing or trotting horses. I would still think that the number of PROFESSIONALS are limited and do not have time for another organization. I know this PROFESSIONAL does not have time. See, I make my living off of my horses. But not 100% off of the breeding of my Quarter Horses and FJORDS. I sell lessons, trail rides, have a gift shoppe and sell horse items on the internet. I doubt anyone does make a living 100% off of breeding. Carol, you buy and sell horses, you import and sell, you have horses on consignment, you sell driving vacations, driving lessons. You are a person that makes a living off of horses in general not just breeding them. Lets give a FULL PICTURE to the people on the list of how our industry is. Please do not glorify the breeding industry and that 1000's of dollars can be made in it. It is a combination of income on an Equine Farm that makes the money and hopefully the profit at the end of the year. Carol, you are good at what you do. That is you can sell! I am sure you could sell a Fir Coat to someone in Florida. AND AT A SIZABLE PROFIT! (And yes there not SIN in profit.) This professional is on baby watch. 6 cameras and 2 monitors to watch at night. Though my girls always birth out during the day, I still watch at night. At the end of the month 6 new babies will be here, imprinted and ready to greet the world of pasture and play. 4 will be Fjords, 2 AQHA. (All are for sale... ) Then we start all over again. That's the business.
Re: Fjord Breeders' Association
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Arthur Rivoire) Hello from Carol Rivoire at Beaver Dam Farm in Nova Scotia - Mary Thurman wrote me this great letter - >Carol, > >If breeders form their own organization to help each other and to >better the breed through their common interest, I see nothing wrong >with a Breeders Association. --- Mary, Exactly what I had in mind. I broached this subject saying I was putting out "feelers" to see if there was interest. I said there was no such organization at present, and any rules or regulations would be created by the eventual members. -- -- In this vein, it would be virtually the >same as our "Promotional Groups" - a group of people getting together >to do what they can to promote the breed as a whole. These are our >"using horse" groups. They sponsor shows, clinics, etc., to help those >who use Fjords do that better. - Yes, exactly what I had in mind. You've said it extremely well! The only difference between a Breeder's Group and the Promotional Groups is the emphasis would be on creating and maintaining QUALITY BREEDING PRACTICES, rather than putting on clinics and shows. Not that a breeders' group couldn't sponsor clinics; particularly those having to do with educating breeders. Helping those not so knowledgeable, as you've pointed out. --- --- A "breeders' group" formed for the >purpose of putting on seminars, clinics, etc., to be better informed >about the breeding issues of the Fjord could help ALL breeders do a >good job - if the membership is not limited in anyway, ie. no exclusive >"definition of a breeder". This would allow access to the group for >small breeders - those who have only a mare or two, no stallion on >premises, produce only a few foals, BUT want to produce only very good >foals. The small breeder is often the one with limited resources and >limited access to advice and information. He is the one who needs the >shared knowledge of experienced breeders in order to produce good >(sometimes great) foals. If the needs of the smaller breeders are not >addressed, they are the ones who will be unable, often, to produce good >horses - to the detriment of the breed. Often these small breeders are >just as passionate about the breed as the bigger breeders - they own >one or two really good mares that they either bought or raised and want >to use them to produce good foals for the breed - but they do not have >the resources to "go bigtime". - Mary, You're absolutely right! To be blunt about it, there's a big difference between a concientious breeder, and someone who just multiplies horses. The first deserves to be called a BREEDER! I better not tell you what I think of the other kind. -- The first are the people I'd like to be associated with, and it makes absolutely no difference whether they're "big", "small", full-time, or part-time. What does matter is seriousness of purpose, intent, reverence for the breed, knowledge, or a willingness to be educated. I speak from experience here. You >would not believe how incredibly hard it is to find out ANYTHING about >Fjords - let alone find a good stallion for your prize mare - if you >are small, out of the "main loop", live on the edge of nowhere, and >have little cash resources. Hard, yes - but not impossible! How much >easier it would have been for us to have had some organization we could >go to for basic information. -- Yes, I would believe how hard it is to find out things wherever we live. I live on the eastern edge of North America. I could get a little further away if I lived in Newfoundland, but not much. Personally, I would like to belong to a group having the common interest of breeding the best possible Fjords. A group that could share resources and knowledge. I had a private email the other day from someone who liked the idea of a Breeders Group. He pointed out that a Breeders Group might make a co-operative purchase of a high quality European stallion. Such a venture would benefit the breed as a whole, and the breeders involved as well as the general Fjord-buying public. That, of course, is just an example of what could be done. --- I'm a big fan of co-operatives! ---
Re: breeders association
This message is from: "Bushnell's" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> "Catherine Lassesen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > .we do not >need another organization to try to organize the unorganized. Please do not create >another group. Another $25.00 dues per year... another newsletter... >another list... another.. another... (get the picture???) I could not agree more! This would be "wheels within wheels" of binding machinery that is unnecessary. You cannot legislate integrity anyhow. I'm of the opinion that Fjords just naturally attract the best kind of folk and they're going to do what's best for their stock without being monitored and dictated to. Jean Ernest said it very well in her post too. An effort of this nature could only be divisive for the common good. Ruthie Bushnell, NW MT
breeders association
This message is from: "Catherine Lassesen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Pleasepleaseplease. Breeders... In my personal view...we do not need another organization to try to organize the unorganized. Can we not work within the NFHR and have a committee of breeders to address the all important things "breeders" want to talk about? In my view, we have too many organizations that have no direction and to which direction to go in. Another one would just be the same I am afraid. "FBA" or "FJORD BREEDERS OF AMERICA" was formed for that reason and where is it? I know there are people out there that want to have things done. I THINK THAT IS WONDERFUL. But can you RUN for OFFICE on the BOARD OF DIRECTORS and work within the SYSTEM to change things for the BETTER??? I would love to see more than one candidate for each position open. PUT YOUR NAME IN THE HAT and let us vote you in office... Please do not create another group. Another $25.00 dues per year... another newsletter... another list... another.. another... (get the picture???) (I am not trying to place the person with the suggestion down... rather the thought of another organization down) My 10 KRONE worth! Catherine Lassesen
New York State Breeders Show
This message is from: Julia Will <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Hello everybody in the northeast: a reminder that entries close for the NY Breeders show on April 29th. They do accept post entries, but it costs more. The Fjord classes will be on Saturday May 22, starting with halter at 8:15 am. The class list includes English and Western Pleasure, Pleasure driving, Gambler's choice, log pull, low hunter, and 3 walk-trot classes for the younger set. This is a nice little show, and could grow into a BIG show IF we get participation! Many of us New York Fjord owners travel east to the Woodstock show every year, and we would like to see more people in the east come west for the Breeders show. If you need entry forms, email me privately. Thanks! Julie
Re: Comments on Backyard Breeders
This message is from: Jean Ernest <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >If nobody on this list is too offended by this post, I will send another >post that I have written, but have been waiting to send, about my own >personal philosphy when it comes to breeding the Norwegian Fjord Horse in >North America. This breeding philosophy follows alot of the same things >with what appears to be a rather unique twist on my part and I am curious >to know if there are like-minded Fjord breeders out there > >>'till then, >Take Care- Lindsay Sweeney Lindsay, >PLEASE. Do send your post about your personal philosophy on breeding Fjords...I sure want to hear it! (of course, you'd better make it clear it is your personal thoughts, not those of the board or someone will get bent out of shape... :-)) Jean in Fairbanks, Alaska, where it is sunny and +8 degrees. New snow, beautiful everywhere! Jean Ernest Fairbanks, Alaska [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Comments on Backyard Breeders
This message is from: Lori Albrough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > This message is from: Lindsay&Jim Sweeney <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > ...In the TB industry it is easier to be a good and > successful backyard breeder than it appears to be with Fjords. Does anyone know: is it a goal of the NFHR to provide the necessary tools to make it as easy to be a good and successful backyard breeder of Fjords as it is in the TB industry? Or if not, maybe "should it be"? > The > Thoroughbred Times offers a Stallion Directory, and using it to your > advantage is easy! Who puts this out, the Jockey Club (sorry for my ignorance)? > If nobody on this list is too offended by this post, I will send another > post that I have written, but have been waiting to send, about my own > personal philosphy when it comes to breeding the Norwegian Fjord Horse in > North America. Go for it! Lori
Re: Comments on Backyard Breeders
This message is from: Lindsay&Jim Sweeney <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> >> To me, the term "backyard breeder" has no negative conotation. > >Thanks again for standing up for what is right on this touchy issue. > >Mary >== >Mary Thurman >Raintree Farms Dear Mary and Carol, Hear!, Hear!, I totally agree with you on this issue. Where I come from in the horse world there are many "backyard breeders" and the term is usually used to describe the mare owner with a few top rate mares that carefully selects the best stallion to match with each mare based on their strengths and weaknessess and then analyses the offspring of each match to see what was gained, or lost! These mare owners are very conscientious and will not spare any amount of time, effort, or money when trying tp produce another member of whatever breed they are into. My husband Jim and I are, as were my parents and my husband's parents before us, the consumate "backyard breeders" of the Thoroughbred sport horse! When I was growing up , my family was into TB Hunters (both field and show ring) and later Jumpers. Jim's parents bred also within the TB bloodlines, but more for the sport horse type as they were into eventing and dressage. We were taught that the way to select a stallion for any given mare was to look at the offspring of that stallion . We were taught that looking to the second and third generations in the stallion's bloodlines was even more important than looking at the stallion himself. We were taught to look at the mares that produced the offspring from that stallion to see what traits they may have offered to the match. And to look into the generations in that mare's pedigree. We were taught to look at all the performance records of any bloodline we were interested in to discover what the inherent strenghts (or weaknessess) might be available to our mare's genetically. In the TB industry it is easier to be a good and successful backyard breeder than it appears to be with Fjords. TB breeder's have availabe, in English, generations after generation of horse's that have been proven in production and performance. The Thoroughbred Times offers a Stallion Directory, and using it to your advantage is easy! The directory contains all the Thoroughbred bloodline information as well as a color confomation photo, details like size, color, age, performance records of the individual, his family, and the offspring from the individual. As "backyard breeder's" in the huge TB industry, my family cannot afford to breed anything but the best! Our current TB broadmare is named CHESTRY OAK and any of you that are into eventing will recognize her name and her bloodline!! Chestry Oak is sired by Core Buff (Buffoonery x Royal Core(Cormac)) out of Chee Oaks (Hunter's Moon IV X Some Wrackette(Rockminster)). She is a famous retired Advanced Three Day Event Horse. In her competitive hey day she WON Rolex Kentucky, Chesterland and Fair Hill, just to name the most well known events that she competed in at the advanced level. We breed for event prospects so we look for sires based on that. So far we have bred her to the premiere eventing sire (meaning he produces the greatest number of event horses from mares like Chestry) his name was Baba Mist and we bred two fillies from this niche that have gone on to eventing careers and the older one has proven herself as a broodmare also with offspring from Bates Motel and a stallion from the famous "Twist Family" of jumping lines. Chestry has had two colts by Epic Win, one of which is a young (maybe nine years old or so now) stallion stood by Denny Emerson at Tamarack Hill Farm, named Wintry Oak. Denny and Wintry currently compete in eventing and jumpers and did the 100 mile competitive trail ride in 1997 and placed second in their division!! Chestry's last (or should I say latest) TB offspring is another filly by Right of Light. While we have been very successful in this breeding program having sold each foal we produced as a weanling for what the industry norm is for horses of this caliber and ancestry (in excess of $10,000-) we are changing our plan for next season. We have decided since Chestry is twenty-five this Spring (older for a TB than a Fjord for sure!) we would like to veer wildly off our path and breed her to a Cleveland Bay stallion in hopes of producing a driving prospect for my husband to do CDEs single and for me to get back into a little higher level of eventing than I have been enjoying with my beloved Fjord Horses. This breeding will be alot riskier than what we've done in the past as we must breed to a young, unproven CB stallion, thankfully we do have a newly imported on in our general area!! We have faith that Chestry will at least add her strengths to the cross as she has been very consistent with a variety of TB stallions. And
Re: Comments on Backyard Breeders
This message is from: Mary Thurman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> ---Arthur Rivoire <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Arthur Rivoire) > > > > Hello, from Carol Rivoire at Beaver Dam Farm in Nova Scotia - > > To me, the term "backyard breeder" has no negative conotation. All it > means is that a non-professional has a mare they wish to breed. In my > experience, that person is almost always careing, knowledgeable, and > concientious. They want a good foal, and will do what it takes, and spend > what it takes to achieve that. Thank you, Carol!! At last someone who knows what she's talking about. We are/or were what is commonly called a "backyard breeder" - not a bad thing in the rest of the world. We bred a few nice babies from a couple of nice mares, didn't own our own stallion, sold most of the babies, and got out when the operation (number of horses vs. amount of available land) became unfeasable. We sold our mares - except for the old one - to people we felt would handle them responsibly and who appreciated what they were getting. The last one went very reasonably to someone who really wanted her and that is where she should be. We kept three horses to "play" with (the old one is now a retiree). Every one of them is handled daily, fed properly, vaccinated and wormed regularly, and has his/her hoofs trimmed or shod regularly. If you can't give that to your horses, get rid of them. You owe it to them. As "backyard breeders" we were often treated with less than respect by some "stallion owners" (I won't call them breeders). Some of the places we have visited looking for a mare or stallion have been little better than what the dog world calls "puppy mills". The real breeders were always very helpful, courteous, interested in making a good match for our precious imported mare. Very commendable people. What you had to say about real breeders/vs. horse producers (or whatever - maybe call them "foal mills") is right on. Breeders care - about their horses, about the breed and what is good for it, and about their image. Thanks again for standing up for what is right on this touchy issue. Mary == Mary Thurman Raintree Farms [EMAIL PROTECTED] _ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
Re: Backyard breeders?
This message is from: Sessoms <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Breeder - people like Dr. Brian, Lindsay, Julie, Carol, etc.. The people on the 'front lines' of the breed. Hobby breeder - this would include most people on the list that have a foal or two or three; but they breed what they have with care, knowledge and forethought. Backyard breeder - has a negative connotation; they only breed for pocket money or to have a baby horse in the yard without fully considering the commitment required, the breed, temperament, conformation or health care. It doesn't mean what they produce will be bad, it was the intent that was less than stellar. Breeding horses for money isn't bad; but breeding them without all the other considerations is bad. If I can't win this battle of definitions, I'll never use the term byb again!;-) Meredith Sessoms Soddy-Daisy, Tennessee, USA mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Comments on Backyard Breeders
This message is from: "Mike May, Registrar NFHR" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> At 10:52 AM 2/28/99 -0500, you wrote: >This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >I was very lucky as my husband has been a great help. Also, Bernadine Karns >from MI and Nancy Lehnert from MT were wonderful!!! They have spent countless >hours answering questions, listening, and giving great advice. Mike has been >very patient with me, although by now I am sure he thinks " it is that >woman from Texas AGAIN"!!! No I don't think I have ever said that about anyone wanting to learn more about Fjords. Unless of course your calling me at 2 in the morning or something like that. (Yes it has happened) >I would suggest for any newcomer to really search and find people in the >business they are comfortable with and can develop a trust with before the >first purchase. This will help both you and your FJORD be happy. > >My 10 cents worth. And money well spent Lynda. You have put forth some very good advise. A horse should be matched to the new owner. The good responsible breeders will really try to do this. When the right people get matched to the right horse they are both happy. Happy horses & happy people go together in my book. You are on the right track for sure. Mike === Norwegian Fjord Horse Registry Mike May, Registrar Voice 716-872-4114 FAX 716-787-0497 http://www.nfhr.com mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Comments on Backyard Breeders
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hello Carol! After my numerous calls to many different facilities, I must say I agree with your breakdown of Fjord breeders, producers, and owners. I was fairly lucky in my searches as my husband is very knowledgable about horses in and of themselves, and two breeders here in the states have been very kind in answering any questions he or I may have. Mike at the Registry has also been great with my many calls asking about pedigrees, etc. I have a list of things I was told by many different "breeders" which may be helpful for future people interested in Fjords. I would also really enjoy some comments about them, to possibly either shed light and said comments or to put them in their proper place, the garbage. #1. Fjords are easy keepers. They ONLY need very little grass or hay. No grain. While this has been made fairly clear in my research, the problem with such a blanket statement is it is misleading to a newcomer. It SOUNDS like one can get away with a bale a week for a Fjord!! That is unreasonable, cruel to the horse, and misleading to the buyer. #2. Fjords are very easy to train. In fact, it is very uncommon to have a Fjord buck or rear during training. Training is very minor, one can leave their Fjords in the pastures for a year or two and simply throw a saddle on and ride!! RIGHT. Sorry, but I am not quite that stupid. #3. Fjords do not bite. They are very friendly. Yes, they are very friendly. But these are TRAINED Fjords. Seriously, do people really expect a horse to be not trained and to not try to bite or fight training if they are older? (I am talking as if the trainer is NEW) #4. Fjords never need shoes. One can ride them on any surface, and they will be fine. #5. The very best Fjord to buy is a foal or brood mare. I think anyone new to horses would make a huge mistake buying either without experienced assistance somewhere. The unfortunate thing is these recommendations are often times made KNOWING the person does NOT have such experience handy. #6. Fjords only need vets when they are sick. How is a newcomer to judge soundness from illness? All animals, IMO, should have regular medical care. #7. Fjords never need bridles. They can be ridden by newcomers with just a halter because they are so tame. Well, the Fjords may be tame, but does the RIDER know what he/she is doing in case of an emergency? #8. Fjords do not need barns. Sorry, but I think a horse is a horse. And if it is very cold, windy, or wet, I would think it is not such a good idea to not provide shelter. Granted, these are hardy animals, but even in the wild horses have the ability to locate shelter. How can they do this if kept in a pen? #9. Size does not matter. Anyone regardless of size can ride any Fjord. This is simply untrue, and cruel to the horse. A large person should ride a larger Fjord. #10. This Fjord is a show Fjord. Where is the proof? AND, for my last comment, it is often times suggested newcomers consider breeding right away. This tactic is used to sell broodmares a lot. As a matter of fact, I had someone actually try to talk me into buying a permanently lame 6 year old mare for $6000 because she would "make me money". I should say that when I called this particular farm, I had made it very clear I wanted a well trained, mature mare or gelding. I would think many newcomers are not so much interested in making money as in having a good well trained friendly Fjord as their new family member. While my husband and I started out buying Fjords knowing breeding would POSSIBLY be our EVENTUAL goal, my personal opinion is this approach of buying a "breeder" is a wrong approach to selling Fjords to newcomers. It takes time, knowledge, facilites, money, patience, etc., to raise any animal, be it human, dog, cat, or horses. The biggest problem with this approach is how CUTE the babies are. It is easy to get a spontaneous sale in this fashion, for some people will dreamily imagine their "friendly and trained" mare with an "adorable" foal running about. All logical considerations are thrown right out the window. I was very lucky as my husband has been a great help. Also, Bernadine Karns from MI and Nancy Lehnert from MT were wonderful!!! They have spent countless hours answering questions, listening, and giving great advice. Mike has been very patient with me, although by now I am sure he thinks " it is that woman from Texas AGAIN"!!! I would suggest for any newcomer to really search and find people in the business they are comfortable with and can develop a trust with before the first purchase. This will help both you and your FJORD be happy. My 10 cents worth. Lynda, in HOT Texas
Re: Comments on Backyard Breeders
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Arthur Rivoire) Hello, from Carol Rivoire at Beaver Dam Farm in Nova Scotia - To me, the term "backyard breeder" has no negative conotation. All it means is that a non-professional has a mare they wish to breed. In my experience, that person is almost always careing, knowledgeable, and concientious. They want a good foal, and will do what it takes, and spend what it takes to achieve that. When Beaver Dam Farm was in New Hampshire, we did a fair amount of breeding with Gjest, and most of those outside mares came from owners with one or two Fjords --- maybe a mare and a gelding. These people were not breeding quantity; therefore, had no need to look for the cheapest stallion, or lowest mare care. They were intelligent people who knew the foolishness of choosing a stallion based on price. Given a horse has a minimum of 25 useful years, would any intelligent person choose to save $500 on the stud fee? No, in nearly twenty years breeding Fjords, I honestly can't remember a backyard breeder I'd criticize. However, some of the so-called "Professional" "breeders" are another matter. To me, breeding horses is a profession, meaning the person doing it should be qualified to practice that profession as a result of his knowledge, experience, ethics, and his financial ability to feed, train, and house the horses properly. To me, a person does not merit the term "Breeder" just because he's acquired a few fillies, and a stud colt. But, this happens all the time, and pretty soon these people are producing Fjords --- usually, a lot of them. I've seen and heard of some extremely sad cases resulting from these Fjord producers. The most benign cases were ones where the horses were never handled, and grew up as problems, giving the breed a bad name. More serious cases were out and out neglect. One of the more spectacular cases was a "breeder" (actually, quite well known) who thought he would make a lot of money by dealing in volume. He had a lot of horses, and difficulty selling, so went into the winter with more than fifty Fjords. He couldn't feed them. The Humane Society was called in. Extremely sad! --- Another case with a similar result occured with people who bought a bunch of mares, a stallion, and became "instant breeders." The horses almost starved to death. I saw them, and you woulnd't believe Fjords could be so emaciated. And in this case, the owner had tons of money. He'd just lost interest. --- But for a short while, the man was a "Breeder", with a farm name, advertisements, selling horses, the whole bit. In my opinion, a real breeder is someone with a commitment to the breed. This person loves his horses, but knows love isn't enough. He would no more produce another horse he can't care for, than he would produce another child he can't feed, house, or educate. Some of these so-called "breeders" think neglecting horses, causing injuries and death, is excuseable because they're strapped for cash, either temporarily or permanently, and can't afford proper facilities or care. To me, there is no excuse. In cases like that, if the "breeder" really loves his horses, he should sell, lease, or give them away. Backyard breeders are great for the breed. They've usually got the money and time to take care of their two or three Fjords. Professional Breeders should be recognized and rewarded for the serious commitment they've made to the Fjord breed. They've acquired well-bred stock. They've invested their money in barns, proper fencing, training facilities, and trainers. Their horses are fed regularly, hooves are trimmed, vaccinations given on time, and each and every horse on the farm is handled and trained to a level commensurate to his age. These are real BREEDERS. Don't lump these good people in with the horse "producers." And as for the other kind, I have nothing but contempt for them. You can call them horse fornicators, horse producers . .. Call them what you will. Just don't call them Breeders. Regards, Carol Rivoire Carol and Arthur Rivoire Beaver Dam Farm Fjords II R.R. 7 Pomquet Antigonish County Nova Scotia B2G 2L4 902 386 2304 http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/beaverdf
Re: Stallions, "Backyard breeders", etc.
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In a message dated 2/27/99 5:55:00 Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: << No one is going to find a perfect Fjord in their barn (or pasture). >> Well darn. I'm STILL looking for a flaw in Juniper. Can't find one. When I asked Ginny what she thought was her worst flaw, she said her back is a little long. Hmmm. I think she was really struggling to come up with a flaw too. When I've asked my vets in New Mexico and Oregon to come up with a flaw, they couldn't find one. Anne? Did you see any when we brought her up to breed to Misha? Don't be shy, if you did, I'd like to hear it. Living with perfection is tough. Oh and her temperment too. It is also flawless. I'll bring her to the next evaluation and see if anybody can find anything wrong with this mare. We won't talk about Nikki. She's got several obvious flaws, but she sure does throw nice babies! Pamela
Re: Stallions, "Backyard breeders", etc.
This message is from: Lori Albrough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Julia Will wrote: > Now to REALLY stir up a storm, how does the cost of the stud fee influence > whether an owner keeps his/her own mediocre stallion or breeds to a top > quality stallion with an evaluation or show record? Cost of the stud fee is certainly an issue, as is geography. Shipping your mare an hour or two away is very different than sending her eight hours away - both cost-wise and worry-wise, if she has a foal at foot. When you add on all the anciliary costs such as shipping, mare care, loss of use of your mare/worry about a foal at foot, or if you go the AI route, vet fees for numerous visits for palpation and finally insemination, lets not forget running to the airport to pick up semen, getting an ultrasound to see if it worked, and if it didn't, doing the whole routine again - its all very complicated and the dollars do add up very quickly. And if the mare doesn't catch, it ends up being very disappointing in addition to very expensive - which makes stallion ownership start to look attractive. On the other hand, owning and managing a stallion is likely just as expensive, complicated, and frustrating! But that's horses for you - if you think about it too hard, we're all nuts :-) Lori BTW - good post Julie
Backyard breeders, etc.
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] I don't know about the other average members on this list, not the Revoirs and Baldcoms and the likes with their big farms, but the people like me with a gelding or two, but when all these discussions about what to breed, not to breed, this and that begin, my main reaction is to reach for the "DEL" key and get on with something more useful. Merek
Re: Backyard breeders?
This message is from: Sessoms <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Misha wrote ... Will somebody please give me a definitive explanation of the term, 'backyard breeder'? It is easier for me to describe the term as it applies to Labradors; the 'backyard breeder' makes more sense when you look at it as it applies to a very, popular dog breed. But the definition of 'backyard breeder' is the same in any pure-bred animal, including the Norwegian Fjord Horse, only the particulars are different ... While reading this remember that the raw definition of pure-bred is "limited gene pool". That means good breeders have to contend with the good stuff and the bad stuff that are inherent within the genes of any closed population of pure-bred animals. Bad breeders don't think about it very much. The 'backyard breeders' are the people responsible for the 10-15 litters of Labradors advertised in our local newspaper nearly every week. The most likely reason those puppies were created was to give the owner of the bitch a little pocket money. At a mere $250 a pup, the only guarantee you'd get is that the bitch was not cleared for the health problems that do crop up in even the most carefully planned litters of the best bloodlines ... dysplasia, heart murmurs, OCD and eye problems. These pups would be lucky to get their rounds of parvo shots and other shots puppies need before they leave their dam, or worm meds, or even high quality food and basic, clean care. And the new puppy owners are not likely to get proper puppy care and training instructions or support if a problem should develop. The sire was probably chosen simply because the bitch owner ran across the dog and his owner at the local park and he thought the dog was really cool. Many 'backyard breeders' do give proper health care to the bitch and her litter because she is a beloved house pet; but too often that's not the case, by the time the pups get advertised, the poor bitch might have ribs showing, and her teats chewed to ribbons because she was slightly malnourished, wormy and stuck in a pen in the basement or backyard with a hungry litter that should have been properly weaned from her starting weeks ago. And sometimes the little puppies are separated from their dam much too early because the breeder can't or won't keep up with the mess. Unlike humans, dogs learn the basic social skills as tiny babes with the dam and the littermates. If these critical lessons are lost the pup may turn into an adult with behavioral problems. You know you've found a 'backyard breeder' if he/she is finding homes for five or six week old puppies. You can see byb Labradors, many with behavioral problems, any day of the week at shelters all over the country. The 'backyard breeder' can't discuss pedigrees except to tell you that the dogs grandfather was 'Super Charger' or a 'Shamrock Acres' dog. The 'backyard breeder' will brag that his dogs are all AKC registered as though that, in itself, meant something special and is a reason to breed. The 'backyard breeder' probably has never participated in any competition where he/she would be exposed to knowledgeable dog people. It takes study and information gained through exposure to the animals and people who do it right. The good breeder learns what their breed is all about. They learn just what characteristics are typical of their breed and what characteristics might crop up that are wanted and what to avoid. It takes knowledge and hands-on experience to learn what is correct about your dogs and what physical and temperament characteristics you do and don't want to double up on. That's what the conformation shows are about - learning - not a beauty pageant; and any breeder that tells you that shows are beauty pageants hasn't got a clue. Another words, the 'backyard breeder' doesn't even know, really know, what a Labrador is, whether his bitch is of breeding quality or not. Chances are good he/she doesn't even know the simple basics about the breed like ... you don't breed chocolates and yellows together. He often says he breeds 'rare chocolate Labs', 'rare fox red Labs', 'rare white Labradors' or 'golden Labs', and then he charges more money for the 'rare' colors without even realizing there is no such thing - Labs are black, chocolate or yellow; the chocolates and yellows come in various shades ... period. He brags that the stud dog was 120 lbs and had an 'English block head'. They also perpetuate terrible behavior problems like hyper or sharp Labradors. Or untypical physical traits like long rat tails, fine bones, almond-shaped eyes, tucked-up tummies or terrier-type ears. President Clinton owns a 'backyard bred' Lab! The 'backyard breede
Re: Stallions, "Backyard breeders", etc.
This message is from: "Mike May, Registrar NFHR" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> At 09:53 PM 2/26/99 -0600, you wrote: >This message is from: "Jon A. Ofjord" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >While we are only a five horse operation at the moment and might be >considered a "backyard breeder" (actually the horses are in the front yard) >we always strive for quality. We have tried to educate ourselves any way we >can about our horses because we care a great deal about them and their well >being. If that makes us backyard breeders, so be it. Actually I think this "backyard breeder" term is usually used for stallion owners. It is a BAD term at any rate since it really has no single meaning. I don't think many people would consider Lindsay Sweeney a "backyard breeder" but looking at the NFHR records she has only 3 Fjords in her name presently. One of them is Solar. He is as well know as Grabb & Gjest for sure. So my opinion is that the term be struck from all of our vocabularies and move on. I don't think the breeding operation should be judged by size but definitely by QUALITY!!! === Norwegian Fjord Horse Registry Mike May, Registrar Voice 716-872-4114 FAX 716-787-0497 http://www.nfhr.com mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Stallions, "Backyard breeders", etc.
This message is from: "Mike May, Registrar NFHR" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> At 09:02 PM 2/26/99 -0500, you wrote: >This message is from: Julia Will <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >Sorry for the long-winded email! I'm going to (gulp) push the "send" >button. Ready, aim, fire! Julie I don't think you have any reason to gulp on that one Julie. GREAT stuff. GREAT idea too - everyone go look in their own barns or pastures. Seriously now. No one is going to find a perfect Fjord in their barn (or pasture). Every one of the well know stallion owners can tell you at least 2 or 3 faults of their stallions. They all have some. The problem comes in when some of them have way to many of them! my $0.02 worth... Mike === Norwegian Fjord Horse Registry Mike May, Registrar Voice 716-872-4114 FAX 716-787-0497 http://www.nfhr.com mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re[4]: Stallions, "Backyard breeders", etc.
This message is from: Steve McIlree <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Jean-- Friday, February 26, 1999, you wrote: > Steve, and this is my last message tonight, most people accept a > lesser stallion is the one you can get for less cost. The offer of a > superior stallion at less cost would have to be carefully explained. > Jean Gayle If presented as I suggested by the Registry as part of a pool of quality stallions being made available by their owners for the furtherance of the breed, I think this would be a no-brainer. And if some people couldn't figure it out, so be it. -- Steve McIlree & Cynthia Madden -- Pferd, Keyah, Skipper, Tank -- Omaha, Nebraska, USA Men are better when riding, more just and more understanding, and more alert and more at ease... --Edward Plantagenet(1373-1413)
Re: Re[2]: Stallions, "Backyard breeders", etc.
This message is from: "Jean Gayle" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Steve, and this is my last message tonight, most people accept a lesser stallion is the one you can get for less cost. The offer of a superior stallion at less cost would have to be carefully explained. Jean Gayle >This message is from: Steve McIlree <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >> This is certainly food for thought. Given a pool of quality > stallions available at a reasonable price, there would be little > incentive to breed to mediocre stallions. However this would to > hurt the feelings of owners less than top quality or unevaluated > stallions. > >-- >Steve McIlree & Cynthia Madden -- Pferd, Keyah, Skipper, Tank -- Omaha, Nebraska, USA > Far back, far back in our dark soul the horse prances. --D.H. Lawrence(1885-1930) > >
Re[2]: Stallions, "Backyard breeders", etc.
This message is from: Steve McIlree <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Julia-- Friday, February 26, 1999, you wrote: > Now to REALLY stir up a storm, how does the cost of the stud fee > influence whether an owner keeps his/her own mediocre stallion or > breeds to a top quality stallion with an evaluation or show record? > If serious breeders really want to encourage breeding to the best, > won't they LOWER the stud fees to attract more mares? Do > stallion owners seriously think that by having a high fee they will > prevent "inferior" horses from being bred? I contend this just > promotes the proliferation poor quality stallions being bred to poor > quality mares. This is certainly food for thought. Given a pool of quality stallions available at a reasonable price, there would be little incentive to breed to mediocre stallions. However this would require a great deal of altruism on the part of stallion owners. Perhaps the NFHR could help out by making free marketing of stud services available to owners of acceptable stallions who wished to participate in such a pool. It wouldn't cost the Registry anything but several pages in the Herald and on the Web site and it would give stallion owners some practical reason for participation. Hopefully they could recover some of the lower fees thru more breedings. Of course this would require some guts and readiness to hurt the feelings of owners less than top quality or unevaluated stallions. -- Steve McIlree & Cynthia Madden -- Pferd, Keyah, Skipper, Tank -- Omaha, Nebraska, USA Far back, far back in our dark soul the horse prances. --D.H. Lawrence(1885-1930)
Re: Stallions, "Backyard breeders", etc.
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In a message dated 2/26/99 18:05:45 Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: << Other opinions? How about hearing from mare owners? What do you think about stud fees? What influences your choice?>> While affordability is a consideration for me, it is not at the top of my list. I'd rather pay a little more for a quality stallion, giving the baby the best chance of being top notch, than cut the price and get a lesser horse. For me temperment is #1, with conformation a close #2. They are almost inseparable. I wouldn't breed a mare of mine to something that is foul tempered or poorly built. There are enough nice stallions out there that I won't settle for less than these two things. You've got to have the temperment to train a nice riding horse, and it's got to be sound. It's late for me tonight, and hope this made sense. Pamela
Re: Stallions, "Backyard breeders", etc.
This message is from: "Jon A. Ofjord" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Julie, You may have opened up an interesting can of worms! We have little interest in having our own stallion, but we have a nine month old colt who is better looking than some stallions. He seems conformationally correct and rather handsome. We realize that judging young stock is, as Wayne Hipsley once put it, a "crap shoot". We will geld him this Spring for several reasons. There are several excellent stallions (blue ribbon evaluation) in his bloodline and there is no need for another. He is probably not an improvement in that line. Another reason for gelding him is that we don't have facilities for a stallion and selfishly wish to keep him as a using horse. He is large - 13.2 and 850 lbs. already - and a very fast learner. That brings up just a little aside. Do colts learn faster than fillies? Stud fees. Certainly lower stud fees would be a help, but fees have not been an issue. Geographic location is a bigger obstacle for us and as we are at least 4 hours from the nearest large animal vet AI is not a viable option. We are fortunate to have several very good stallions, evaluation and show winners, within a long day's drive. We always want to breed our mares to the best or most complimentary stallion. Why wouldn't we? The stud fee, mare care, ultrasound, etc. do add up to a rather tidy sum, but we manage to come up with it, anyway. If a stallion threw less than wonderful foals, i.e. sickle hocks, white markings, bad hooves, mal-occluded teeth, etc., we would not breed to it no matter what the fee. Personally I am leery of breeding to a young stallion unless he has a lot of quality get. Not likely to happen at an early age. While we are only a five horse operation at the moment and might be considered a "backyard breeder" (actually the horses are in the front yard) we always strive for quality. We have tried to educate ourselves any way we can about our horses because we care a great deal about them and their well being. If that makes us backyard breeders, so be it. Jon
Re: Stallions, "Backyard breeders", etc.
This message is from: Julia Will <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Dear Linda, Misha & others ~ Good points! I agree that the NFHR needs more evaluations, and certainly more Fjord shows would be welcome. The shows are not NFHR functions...Fjord fans need to pull together to organize more shows, or to have Fjord classes added at their State Fairs, local shows, etc. We have been pretty successful getting the NYS Breeders Show to add more classes for Fjords, even tho only about a dozen horses come each year. We hope to keep enticing more folks to bring their horses, and as numbers increase we can add a greater variety of classes. I personally dislike the lumping together of Fjord owners/breeders in catagories with names like "backyard breeder". One of the reasons I love being "in Fjords" is that most of my fellow Fjord lovers are NICE PEOPLE, trying to do the best they possibly can for their horses. I also don't think it is the end of the civilized world if some "less than perfect" family horses have a few foals in their lifetimes. I do think there are a lot of stallions who should be geldings. What are the "conformation faults" that make breeding out of the question? Short back, long back, toeing in, toeing out, sickle hocks, cow hocks, poor shoulder angle, mutton withers, narrow chest, too wide chest, homely face, ewe neck, cresty neck, short stride, white markingswhich ones??? All of the above? In a "using" horse, (speaking only of mares, because most folks don't keep a stallion just for a "using" horse) the horse must be servicable sound and functional, which tells me while the conformation may not be perfect, at least it all "works" and the horse can do the things a horse is supposed to do. I think we would do a service to the breed if we discussed which faults are so serious that breeding is out of the question. We are kidding ourselves if we think the Norwegians and the Dutch don't breed some "less than perfect" horses. I have been to Holland and to Norway, and I have owned upwards of 100 Fjord horses in the last 7 years, and I can vouch for the fact that perfection IS NOT the rule. I have owned quite a few 3rd Pr. and even 2nd Pr. mares that HAVE conformation faults, including sickle hocks, pidgeon toes, short stride, upright shoulder, slightly mal-occulded teeth, white markings, cow hocks...etc. These were all imported mares, who had been given their premies by the Norwegians. They are offspring of well-known stallions. Folks, these faults didn't just crop up when the horses hit American soil. They are in the genes of the parent stock, and have not been bred out dispite MANY years of culling and selective breeding in Norway and Holland. The less-than-perfect horses are used for breeding ... I have been to the stables in Norway and Holland, seen the mares, seen faults. Come on now...fess up. Others of you have been there too and you aren't blind. Let's be HONEST. Look in your own barns, breeders. See some faults? Of course you do. What we all hope to do is choose carefully and produce foals that are better than the parents. Doesn't always work, does it? Now to REALLY stir up a storm, how does the cost of the stud fee influence whether an owner keeps his/her own mediocre stallion or breeds to a top quality stallion with an evaluation or show record? If serious breeders really want to encourage breeding to the best, won't they LOWER the stud fees to attract more mares? Do you think this will mean that more "inferior" mares will be bred, or will it mean a greater portion of these mares will be sent to a top stallion instead of an mediocre stallion that is self or locally owned? In our part of the country, a weanling stud colt sells for $1500 to $3500, depending on quality, and a filly for $2500 to $4000. If it costs $1000 and up for the stud fee, plus transport, vet costs and mare care, the mare owner may think twice about sending the mare off, versus buying his own $1500 colt to raise and breed to his mares. I suspect that in Norway and Holland, the cost of the stud fee is not proportionally as high, and the number of stallions is much less. Do stallion owners seriously think that by having a high fee they will prevent "inferior" horses from being bred? I contend this just promotes the proliferation poor quality stallions being bred to poor quality mares. I am a stallion owner, so I am not pointing fingers from the outside looking in. Furthermore, breeding outside mares is NOT fun and is a lot of work. I'm not saying the person who shows their stallion, has him evaluated, or has imported a fine animal does not DESERVE a high stud fee. I'm just suggesting that if we are complaining about the number of stallions in this country who are NOT top quality, perhaps one way to reduce this number is by making it p
Re: Stallions, "Backyard breeders", etc.
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hello everyone! A few questions and thoughts, as always. From my perception, it appears the jist of the list's opinions is a stallion used in a setting of a "backyard breeder" is flawed due to lack of showing, evaluations, and bloodlines. Are these actual flaws? I know of only four actual annual Fjord shows in the United States, someone please correct me if I am wrong. The lack of quantity of shows would certainly prohibit many people from attending, I would think. Timing, location, travel, all of these things must be taken into consideration in regards to taking horses to a show. How feasible is it for a small farm and or small breeding operation to stop everything to attend a show 1500-2000 miles away? I was worried about when/how to have my new Fjords evaluated as soon as possible. I actually recieved an email in answer stating something to the effect of not to worry, the MidWest Group has evaluations every THREE YEARS! Now seriously. How workable is this for those of us wishing to have our horses evaluated so we can indeed ascertain the level of quality we currently own, in order to "correctly" show and breed for conformation, temperament, movement, etc.? I know there is another evaluation scheduled NEXT year in CA. About 2500 miles away from me. I suppose I will have to load up every animal, regardless if I wish them evaluated or not, to make such a lengthy trip. No offense to anyone on the board, but I do get the impression the criteria of some of the list's PEERS is hard on small farms and newcomers due to the very fact of how inaccessible the current program is for small farms and newcomers to the Fjord world. OK, now about bloodlines. Everyone seems to know a great deal about bloodlines. I have heard endless discussion about stallions from Norway, Holland, Canada, etc., etc., etc. I have looked at countless pedigrees in my personal hunt for Fjords. But, they are simply names to me. I have no idea as to what the ancestry of my chosen Fjord has accomplished. Oftentimes, neither does the breeder. So tell me please, how does one discover this information? This is obviously a very important issue, for it seems many on the list know a great deal, so much in fact it seems I often hear more of what the sire's sire's sire accomplished than I hear of what the present Fjord has accomplished. Personally, I would like to hear more about AMERICAN stallions and mares. I am in America, my Fjords were born in America, and they will live in America. As far as I am concerned, they may be of Norwegian equine descent, but they are American horses. Thanks in advance for any answers! Lynda, temporarily from Texas
a thankyou to Lindsay S. and "backyard breeders"...
This message is from: Ingrid Ivic <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Hi Lindsay, Hopefully my private e-mail got through...but if it didn't, thanks so very much again for responding to my questions on the List. I will certainly look up the books recommended. ;o) We enjoy our fjords immensely and always want to learn more. It's helpful owners, vets and breeders whose opinions and invaluable information posted here, that make this forum great. Where else can you get such diversity of personalities (he-he-he) combined with their knowlege and experience? Oh, to be able to know an "old-timer" nearby to help with questions and management! :o) > Unfortunately, different people use the term to mean different things. > To some, it's the "small producer"---someone who only has a couple of > mares. To me, it's the breeder who's "clueless" in one or more ways. > Hmmm, interesting.I consider myself a "small producer", as you put it, but not clueless. > "because she's so sweet", or "because > she has such pretty leg stripes", or "so the kids can see the foal > born", or "to pay some of her purchase price" > Of course these are mostly trivial reasons, but not totally without some merit. Don't breeders INCLUDE considering breeding a mare for her temperament or coloring or to make a profit from her? Yes, breeding a mare shouldn't be done "just for fun", I agree with you. Thank goodness horses don't have litters!!! Enough animals have to be put down every day because they are unwanted, uncared for and unloved. > OTOH, every breeder had to start someplace > We live in an imperfect world, don't we? :o) Ingrid
Re: Backyard breeders?
This message is from: Marsha Jo Hannah <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > misha nogha <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Will somebody please give me a definitive explanation of the term, > 'backyard breeder'? Having never run across one, or at least, not that > I know of, I have no idea what people are talking about. Unfortunately, different people use the term to mean different things. To some, it's the "small producer"---someone who only has a couple of mares. To me, it's the breeder who's "clueless" in one or more ways. Typical is someone new to equines who buys a "using" mare for the kids, then decides to breed her, "because she's so sweet", or "because she has such pretty leg stripes", or "so the kids can see the foal born", or "to pay some of her purchase price", etc. Never mind if the mare has major conformational flaws (which was why she was sold as a "using horse"), or if the chosen (usually the closest) stallion is a poor match for her. Breeders without a plan certainly qualify. Unfortunately, "backyard breeders" tend to be new at raising/training equines, too, and often produce spoiled, bratty "pet" foals. OTOH, every breeder had to start someplace Marsha Jo HannahMurphy must have been a horseman-- [EMAIL PROTECTED] anything that can go wrong, will! 30 mi SSE of San Francisco, Calif. ---
Backyard breeders?
This message is from: misha nogha <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Hi everyone, I'm back from Palm Springs. Glad to see everyone's messages when I got back, thanks! Will somebody please give me a definitive explanation of the term, 'backyard breeder'? Having never run across one, or at least, not that I know of, I have no idea what people are talking about. As far as comments on stallions breeding just a few mares a year I have to say that there are several reasons I do this. One, I run my operation pretty much by myself and am not able to take care of a whole lot of extra horses. Two, I live far away from any nearby stallions. Three, I want a stallion because I want to have control over how my horses are handled, bred, fed, and cared for. That leads me to another line of thinking. Personally, I'm not sure I really care that much how the breed progresses or regresses by Norway's standards. When I bought a Fjord, I was looking for a quiet tempered muti-use horse that could do farm work as well as excell as a riding and driving horse. It used to be that the Morgan horse fit that category pretty well, but lots of people decided that the Morgan needed to be upgraded. That meant that the horses became lighter, livelier and not suitable for farm work. There are a few Morgan breeders who try and keep those foundation qualities. That's what I plan on doing with my Fjord herd. I don't want to go too light and for those customers who want that kind of horse, I give them addresses for reputable breeders who have that type. All in all, I like having control over what I breed and I make sure I raise quality stock. That's my way of thinking. I think there is plenty of room for individual tastes. If people breed low quality horses, I really think that they will breed themselves out of a market. But I don't want people telling me that I can breed or not breed a horse. There are already too many controls over creativity and individuality, and those are the things that make the universe tick. Misha
RE: Breeders association
This message is from: Cynthia Madden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I would like to get back to the original point of my reply to your comments about needing to form a breeders association. I would like to re-emphsize my three main points: 1) As far I can see from an end-user perspective is the NFHR now primarily serve breeders offering very little in the way of support and programs for us "for fun" folks. It is now time for the association to move in that direction. 2) Breeders have not strongly supported that direction, being more interested in issues involving breeding. It is has been my experience that as the growth of Fjords in the hands of "for fun" people explodes, the breeders have not fully adapted to their own growth industry. I have witnessed this explosion just by attending Blue Earth for the last four years. In the first two years, the show was dominated by breeders - in the last two years there has been a very significant increase in the attendance and participation of "for fun" owners. 3) I think the Fjords are unique in that people who own them become so passionate about them and their future as a special and unusual animal. I think this interest is higher than in many other breeds. Look to our example of Mike May, a man who has worked very hard for the breed and only owns one Fjord. I don't think he is an unusual Fjord "for fun" person. Enough said by me, at least, on this topic. Cynthia Madden mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Omaha, Nebraska USA
breeders as evaluators
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (BRIAN C JACOBSEN) About the suggestion that breeders be one of the two Evaluators, Carol Rivoire wrote: >The people who make up the Eval. Committee are amongst our most experienced >people. They've thoughtfully deliberated for a long time to do the best >job possible for the Fjord breed. Why wouldn't we go with their proposal? Congratulations Carol for a NON-INFLAMMATORY statement AGREEING with a proposal by the "powers that be"! THIS COULD BE A FIRST : ) Quick - let's appoint a Fjord Historian to record Carol's comment - it was history in the making! (Oops - I didn't use enough capitals!) IT WAS HISTORY IN THE MAKING!! Carol, I hope you'll let me get away with poking a little fun at you, because actually I'm agreeing with you. Let's stop insulting our very capable Evaluation committee members, who have worked hard and long on this subject, by second-guessing them. We can flap our lips all day long about whether or not this will work, but there's only one way to find out. And what if we find out it doesn't work? This breed has persisted for several thousand years, despite peoples' interference; We're not going to cause any irreparable damage in a year or two of trying this proposal. Besides, there is an easy way to minimize bias if breeders are used as Evaluators; Pick the breeders who don't think bias will be much of a problem. Think about it. Brian Jacobsen ___ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
Re: Breeders
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Arthur Rivoire) Good Day from Carol Rivoire at Beaver Dam Farm in Nova Scotia where it's warm, windy, and balmy (light sweater weather). Hard to believe, eh! This message is to Cynthia Madden who responded to my last posting, in which I suggested that serious breeders might think about forming a Breeder's Association to address issues of specific interest to breeders. And, by the way, this was just a thought thrown out for discussion around our "cyber kitchen table." Bellieve me, no plans are afoot. Cynthia wrote --- > >WHOA! Let's think about what's been said here! "Form a Breeders >Association"? Golly, my impression as someone who has a Fjord "just >for fun" is that the NFHR *is* a "Breeders association". What does the >NFHR actually offer me besides registration papers on my gelding. I >hear there's an incentive program for us "for fun" owners, but I have >yet to see it. And is anything else offered? Where I really get my >support is from the Midwest Fjord Horse Club - they put on shows in >which I can participate, they offer meetings I can attend to express my >opinion and visually meet and talk with other Fjords owners. They >offer education programs such as the one in Galena this next February >(to which the NFHR may or may not offer some cost sharing). And the >clubs who actually offer activities for their members are not >officially affiliated with the NFHR. > >So why am I member of the NFHR? Because I love the breed, because I am >interested in what happens to it. Because I always join the breed >association (notice NOT "breeders association") so that I can >participate in the future of the breed. And I, as a "for fun" Fjord >owner, have a unique opportunity with the NFHR that other memberships >in breed associations have not afforded me. It is small enough but >active enough that I can even be heard once in a while. When I attend >a Midwest Fjord Horse Club activity, I get to meet a significant >number of Fjord owners who also belong to the NFHR. Cynthia, You've misunderstood me, and that's the problem with email as we can't see facial expressions or hear voices. I meant no disrespect or disparagement to "for fun" owners. Quite the contrary! That's what Fjordhorses are all about - FUN! It's on that basis, for the most part, that we sell our horses, as do other breeders. We're not selling racehorses, or jumpers, or polo ponies. We're selling Family Recreation Horses - FUN HORSES. It's always been my opinion that people who use their Fjords as Family Recreation Horses are using them as they're meant to be used, and are getting full benefit from their animals. -- Now please! Don't misunderstand that. I know Fjords can also be dressage horses, reiners & cutters, foxhunters, etc. But in my book, Fjordhorses are *SPECIALISTS IN VERSATILITY!* > >Sometimes breeders tend to forget who is buying their horses - it is >people like me and breeders should be pretty darn respectful of that >fact. It is not breeders who make a breed (though they can damage >one), it is the people who buy them "for fun". I am interested trying >to help the NFHR find a more significant role for "for fun" owners and >it greatly benefits breeders to strongly encourage this. Re "forgetting" - I think you're wrong there. Any breeder who's forgotten who the buyer is won't be in business long. I can tell you I don't forget our buyers because I'm in close contact with most of them. Hardly a day goes by we don't get pictures, emails, videos, and phone calls telling us what our former horses are doing. And if I haven't heard in a while, I call them. This is absolutely the best part of raising horses --- following their careers and hearing about the joy and satisfaction the horses bring to their owner's lives. I also disagree entirely with your statement that it's "not breeders who make the breed." But, perhaps I'm misunderstanding your meaning as you did mine. If not breeders, then who? All horses are bred by someone - backyard breeder or professional. Horses don't get bred totally indescrimately, like cats, for instance. Someone makes a decision for the betterment of the breed, or the worsening of it. Cynthia, you say - "it's not breeders who make a breed, though they can damage them." Yes, you're so right. Breeders are tremendously influential for good and for evil. I believe breeders are the HEART of the breed. And the people who use their horses "For Fun" are the SOUL. And Cynthia, I will think about being less "provocative". Best Wishes, Carol Rivoire Carol and Arthur Rivoire Beaver Dam Farm Fjords II R.R. 7 Pomquet Antigonish County Nova Scotia B2G 2L4 902 386 2304 http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/beaverdf
Breeders Association?
This message is from: Cynthia <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Thursday, Nov 26, Carol Rivoire wrote: > This is a serious subject that should be of interest to ALL FJORD BREEDERS > & SOME OWNERS. Nancy Hotovy, the Chair of the Evaluation Committee gave us > a lot to think about. She asked for input, and there hasn't been much. > Does this mean most people don't care? If so, then maybe it's time for > serious breeders to form a Breeders Association to maintain quality > breeding. Perhaps the problem is most people have Fjords just for fun > (nothing wrong with that), and don't want to be bothered with serious breed > concerns. Perhaps the problem is we've asked these people to think about > seious issues, and they don't have the interest and shouldn't be asked. > What do you think about that? WHOA! Let's think about what's been said here! "Form a Breeders Association"? Golly, my impression as someone who has a Fjord "just for fun" is that the NFHR *is* a "Breeders association". What does the NFHR actually offer me besides registration papers on my gelding. I hear there's an incentive program for us "for fun" owners, but I have yet to see it. And is anything else offered? Where I really get my support is from the Midwest Fjord Horse Club - they put on shows in which I can participate, they offer meetings I can attend to express my opinion and visually meet and talk with other Fjords owners. They offer education programs such as the one in Galena this next February (to which the NFHR may or may not offer some cost sharing). And the clubs who actually offer activities for their members are not officially affiliated with the NFHR. So why am I member of the NFHR? Because I love the breed, because I am interested in what happens to it. Because I always join the breed association (notice NOT "breeders association") so that I can participate in the future of the breed. And I, as a "for fun" Fjord owner, have a unique opportunity with the NFHR that other memberships in breed associations have not afforded me. It is small enough but active enough that I can even be heard once in a while. When I attend a Midwest Fjord Horse Club activity, I get to meet a significant number of Fjord owners who also belong to the NFHR. Sometimes breeders tend to forget who is buying their horses - it is people like me and breeders should be pretty darn respectful of that fact. It is not breeders who make a breed (though they can damage one), it is the people who buy them "for fun". I am interested trying to help the NFHR find a more significant role for "for fun" owners and it greatly benefits breeders to strongly encourage this. Another thing to point out, is that this list, which has proven itself to be such a valuable forum, is paid for and managed by a "for fun" owner. Members of this list also represent a very small, but vocal, portion of the Fjord folks and I think there has been much thoughtful response to all the issues put forth, from breeders and "for fun" owners alike. There have, in fact, been several responses to Nancy's message. I look forward to continuing to participate in these discussions. I think that Julie Will's willingness to convey the opinions she hears from us is a tremendous service to us all and will provide more input to the NFHR BOD than they have previously been able to receive. Carol, you frequently present thoughts that make for good discussion, but I for one wish you could put your ideas forward in a less provacative manner. Cynthia Madden mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Omaha, Nebraska USA
We are now breeders
This message is from: Evers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Hi List. Little did we know (last year at this time) that we would be into having our own Stud, & 4 mares & a colt, when we started to look for a couple of bred mares. We now own BJORN-KNUTSON, a beautiful GREY stallion ,6 yrs. old. He was born in Calif.. & a Mr. Morris has owned him for the last 4 years. We will use him next spring on 2 of our mares.He will go thru the same training the other ones are in now . Our Daughter Amy has already rode Emily & all the girls have been harnessed & pulling a cart. Boy are we happy with our Fjords. Let me tell you it is a pleasure to brush & curry & care for them & get such a loving smile (or a grin) from them. I am still reading the archives list & have learned a lot & hope some one will someday edit them & maybe include it in a membership packet to all owners of these wonderful animals. One will never stop learning what we can do to better this BREED. We wish we had found them 50 yrs . ago. Well,I will keep on loorking & learning but I must say every morning I read this list I get the feeling I have met & talked to each one & am so glad to know such a good bunch of happy Fjord owners. "Dun Lookin' Fjords " still in green pastures but getting colder in central Oregon Tillie
Re: Breeders in my area?
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Talia - You asked about fjord breeders in Minnesota. I'd recommend Rokida Fjords - located a little north of Cloquet, MN (which is west of Duluth, MN). Ron and Kit Davis always have nice stock for sale. They have three unrelated stallions, at least 2 mares for sale, foals, yearlings and several geldings for sale, some their own breeding, some on consignment. They even have 2 grey fjord mares! It's worth a visit - they are located on the Cloquet River (great for smallmouth bass, in case anyone out there fishes) and with a trout stream on the property too. (Call to get driving directions!) You can also see them and some of their stock at the Blue Earth show. Their address: Ron and Kit Davis 7685 Hwy 8 Culver, MN 55779 (218) 729-7062 from Ann Sigford (a satisfied customer)
Re: Breeders in my area?
This message is from: Robert Lafleur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > I'm looking to buy a Fjord in about 5 or 6 years, but I'd like to know of > breeders in my area right now. Can anyone recommend some Fjord breeders in > Minnesota or surrounding states/provinces? > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi there! Well we have a selection of fjords for sale. We are located in Northern Ontario. We have a 7year old gelding who has done it all. He is really good with all levels of riders. He deals with all different types of riding too. He does driving single and double dressage western and hunter jumper. He has won everything you could think of.! Now we are selling him due to oversizeing of our farm. I am leaving for school and would like to pass him to someone who will show him a good time. For video or pictures please contact us at anytime. Renee Lafleur Wild Flower Fjord Farm 2565 Airport Road Timmins, Ontario P4N 7C3 1-705-268-0848 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hope to hear from you soon!
Breeders in my area?
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] I'm looking to buy a Fjord in about 5 or 6 years, but I'd like to know of breeders in my area right now. Can anyone recommend some Fjord breeders in Minnesota or surrounding states/provinces? [EMAIL PROTECTED]
