Re: [Flightgear-devel] Simple atmospheric scattering shader for skydome

[Curtis Olson]

Hi Lauri,

I've been flying with your new atmospheric scatter shader and it's quite
beautiful, great work!  I did notice one glitch though.  Here is a link to a
screen shot:

https://dl-web.dropbox.com/get/Photos/fgfs-screen-043.png?w=eba5c12c

It's very subtle and if there was any cloud coverage it could easily be
missed, but do you see the square corner in the middle of the image.  It
appears that one vertex in the sky dome must be getting a wrong color
assigned to it.  I see that the dome successfully wraps around every other
place and is very nicely blended.  So hopefully this is just a typo?  Or
maybe an off by one error somewhere processing one of the rings of the
skydome?

I took a quick peak at the skydome changes, but haven't had time to really
dig in and look for this.

Thanks,

Curt.


On Tue, Apr 12, 2011 at 1:49 PM, Lauri Peltonen wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I made this patch some time ago, and seems like it is working quite
> fine, so I though if it might be possible to add to git (if nothing
> more, then maybe for future reference)?
>
> It does two things. First I modified the skydome code to be more
> configurable so that the precision could be increased (number of rings
> and bands). Then I implemented the O'Neil's scattering shader to
> showcase the scattering. I know that for the proper effect, terrain and
> other objects should use the same shader, but that is probably future
> work.
>
> Anyways, here are links to patches and effects. The flightgear patch
> only makes clearcolor black, so that space is dark instead of gray.
>
> http://users.tkk.fi/~lapelto2/fgfs/scatter/scatter-simgear.patch
> http://users.tkk.fi/~lapelto2/fgfs/scatter/scatter-flightgear.patch
>
> http://users.tkk.fi/~lapelto2/fgfs/scatter/skydome.eff
> http://users.tkk.fi/~lapelto2/fgfs/scatter/skydome.frag
> http://users.tkk.fi/~lapelto2/fgfs/scatter/skydome.vert
>
> Screenshots can be found from the forum thread:
>
> http://www.flightgear.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=47&t=11274&p=117965#p117965
>
> And the command line to run the shader, it needs some properties set:
> fgfs --prop:/sim/rendering/mie=0.003
> --prop:/sim/rendering/rayleigh=0.0003
> --prop:/sim/rendering/dome-density=0.5
> --prop:/sim/rendering/scattering-shader=1
>
>
> The non-shader version should look just like it used to, but on some
> occasions I think the sunset effect is a bit misplaced. I didn't touch
> that code, so was it always like that? Can someone verify?
>
> Cheers, Zan
>
>
>
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Simple atmospheric scattering shader for skydome

[Erik Hofman]

On Fri, 2011-04-15 at 11:27 +0200, Erik Hofman wrote:
> On Fri, 2011-04-15 at 11:22 +0200, Durk Talsma wrote:
> > Like, Christian and Vivian stated earlier, I would also hate to see a patch 
> > getting lost, especially when it contains promise.  This is why I 
> > originally suggested committing it. 
> > 
> > I would suggest that (even though it may not be production-ready yet), we 
> > commit the patch on the condition that; 1) the shader in question is 
> > disabled by default, and 2) in its disabled state doesn't have an adverse 
> > impact . 
> > 
> > Thoughts / Ideas?
> 
> Let me take a look at it this weekend and I'll commit it then.

Ok the problem seems to be that the local weather tiles need about a
minute to settle down. The code seems fine after all.

Erik


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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Simple atmospheric scattering shader for skydome

[Lauri Peltonen]

Hi.

Nice to see my shader brought up some discussion :)

First, Vivian, I tried to see your screenshots, but the link wasn't
working (server down or something?) so I cannot comment them right
now. And I didn't mean the bug with sun reflection on the water being
misplaced from the real shader, but sometimes it seems like the sunset
effect on the (non shader) skydome is someting like 90 degrees to the
left. I'm not sure if it always was like that or did I change
something or am I just seeing things. It looks like the brightest spot
of the horizon is not where the sun is, but to the left. If someone
can confirm (with old version & my version if possible), would be much
appreciated.

Second, Erik, I tried not to change the old behaviour but I needed to
move some code around to get better precision in the skydom model. I
hope everything works like it did with the non shader version, I
didn't quite understand all the equations but the code should not
change those.

Only behaviour that I did change is the clear color in FG from fog
color to black. I don't see anything changing near the ground, but the
effect near space is better :)


Other topics, mie and rayleigh coefficients are exposed, but maybe I
shuold expose the wavelength dependency too, because that is what
affects the sky color the most. The idea is that some code in FG/SG
would write the proper coefficients depending on weather conditions to
make different looking skies.

I also uploaded the python code I used for evaluating the shader and
calculating the scale coefficients etc. It is here:
http://users.tkk.fi/~lapelto2/fgfs/scatter/scatter.py  I can also
write a wiki article on the subject should it be necessary.

In the future, I'd like to see this shader as a post processing effect
applied over all rendered objects so we would get a consistent look
and feel everywhere. And also, I didn't think about getting this to
the next release, it's too late for that. But maybe to the one after
that, so we have time to test things first.

Wbr, Zan
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Simple atmospheric scattering shader for skydome

[Erik Hofman]

On Fri, 2011-04-15 at 11:22 +0200, Durk Talsma wrote:
> Like, Christian and Vivian stated earlier, I would also hate to see a patch 
> getting lost, especially when it contains promise.  This is why I originally 
> suggested committing it. 
> 
> I would suggest that (even though it may not be production-ready yet), we 
> commit the patch on the condition that; 1) the shader in question is disabled 
> by default, and 2) in its disabled state doesn't have an adverse impact . 
> 
> Thoughts / Ideas?

Let me take a look at it this weekend and I'll commit it then.

Erik


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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Simple atmospheric scattering shader for skydome

[Durk Talsma]

On 15 Apr 2011, at 08:41, Erik Hofman wrote:

> On Fri, 2011-04-15 at 00:16 +0200, Christian Schmitt wrote:
>> I can only agee with Vivian here: lets get this change into GIT, so that it 
>> doesn't get lost as so many others in the past. The shader is not perfect 
>> yet, but that should not hurt, as it is disabled as a default. Those who 
>> want to test and improve it are free to do so.
>> Let me add that it's good to have people who work on things like shaders (we 
>> need every single one of them).
> 
> I'm not opposed to adding the shaders but I want a good look at the code
> to make sure that current functionality is not lost with the patch
> before it gets committed.
> 

Like, Christian and Vivian stated earlier, I would also hate to see a patch 
getting lost, especially when it contains promise.  This is why I originally 
suggested committing it. 

I would suggest that (even though it may not be production-ready yet), we 
commit the patch on the condition that; 1) the shader in question is disabled 
by default, and 2) in its disabled state doesn't have an adverse impact . 

Thoughts / Ideas?

Cheers,
Durk


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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Simple atmospheric scattering shader for skydome

[Arnt Karlsen]

On Fri, 15 Apr 2011 08:41:42 +0200, Erik wrote in message 
<1302849702.1655.1.camel@Raptor>:

> On Fri, 2011-04-15 at 00:16 +0200, Christian Schmitt wrote:
> > I can only agee with Vivian here: lets get this change into GIT, so
> > that it doesn't get lost as so many others in the past. The shader
> > is not perfect yet, but that should not hurt, as it is disabled as
> > a default. Those who want to test and improve it are free to do so.
> > Let me add that it's good to have people who work on things like
> > shaders (we need every single one of them).
> 
> I'm not opposed to adding the shaders but I want a good look at the
> code to make sure that current functionality is not lost with the
> patch before it gets committed.
> 
> Erik

..and, we better find out what's going on with the shader 
artifacts on ATI cards, if FG-2.2 is anything like FG-git,
it is _not_ ready.  

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Simple atmospheric scattering shader for skydome

[Erik Hofman]

On Fri, 2011-04-15 at 00:16 +0200, Christian Schmitt wrote:
> I can only agee with Vivian here: lets get this change into GIT, so that it 
> doesn't get lost as so many others in the past. The shader is not perfect 
> yet, but that should not hurt, as it is disabled as a default. Those who 
> want to test and improve it are free to do so.
> Let me add that it's good to have people who work on things like shaders (we 
> need every single one of them).

I'm not opposed to adding the shaders but I want a good look at the code
to make sure that current functionality is not lost with the patch
before it gets committed.

Erik


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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Simple atmospheric scattering shader for skydome

[Christian Schmitt]

Erik Hofman wrote:

> I'm not sure, it needs time to look after some things. For one it should
> be made possible for the shader to adjust the fog color located
> under /rendering/fog but at this time values written to it will be
> overwritten by the current code.
> 
> Erik
> 

I can only agee with Vivian here: lets get this change into GIT, so that it 
doesn't get lost as so many others in the past. The shader is not perfect 
yet, but that should not hurt, as it is disabled as a default. Those who 
want to test and improve it are free to do so.
Let me add that it's good to have people who work on things like shaders (we 
need every single one of them).

Chris
papillon81

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Simple atmospheric scattering shader for skydome

[Vivian Meazza]

Erik wrote

> 
> On Thu, 2011-04-14 at 18:15 +0200, Durk Talsma wrote:
> 
> >
> > Okay, thanks for the comments. I'll be holding back on committing. Is
> > there any perspective that this patch can be brought to production
> > quality?
> 
> I'm not sure, it needs time to look after some things. For one it should
> be made possible for the shader to adjust the fog color located
> under /rendering/fog but at this time values written to it will be
> overwritten by the current code.
> 

I added some sliders in the rendering dialog here as suggested by Fred and
did some adjustments at runtime. There do seem to be some issues that I was
unable to tune out - at least so far:

ftp://abbeytheatre2.org.uk:2121/flightgear/Skydome/

However, I am concerned that if we do not get this into git, it will get
forgotten, and we will not get the potential improvements. That said, there
do seem to be some pretty fundamental problems here, as the screenshots
indicate.

I can't see any downside here - if the shader is disabled - so far as I can
see the existing skydome is unaffected. 

Vivian



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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Simple atmospheric scattering shader for skydome

[Erik Hofman]

On Thu, 2011-04-14 at 18:15 +0200, Durk Talsma wrote:

> 
> Okay, thanks for the comments. I'll be holding back on committing. Is
> there any perspective that this patch can be brought to production
> quality?

I'm not sure, it needs time to look after some things. For one it should
be made possible for the shader to adjust the fog color located
under /rendering/fog but at this time values written to it will be
overwritten by the current code.

Erik



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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Simple atmospheric scattering shader for skydome

[Curtis Olson]

On Thu, Apr 14, 2011 at 11:15 AM, Durk Talsma  wrote:

> PS: what about the 2.2 release first ? I see plans for lots of code.
>
> Yeah, we should get back to that. What is the current status? I have spend
> a lot of time doing the prepatory work for an eventual release during my
> holiday, but apparently no release has happened during my absence. Are there
> still any showstoppers?
>

I seem to recall James mentioned the a couple issues remained, but I don't
recall ever hearing specifically what those issues where.  He has been
buried by real life lately so he hasn't had the chance to jump in much
lately.  I haven't heard much from Tim either.

On my end I have been packaging and uploading the cutting edge executables
from the hudson build server along with the current data package from git.
 That is pushing about 400Mb as a single setup.exe right now.  When we do a
real release, we should be able to do bittorrent seeded through ibiblio.org.

Curt.
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Simple atmospheric scattering shader for skydome

[Durk Talsma]

On 14 Apr 2011, at 10:30, Frederic Bouvier wrote:

> Erik Hofman wrote:
> 
>> 
>> It's not production ready yet, and it even removes some of the features
>> form the old code. I don't seem to see any difference with different
>> humidity levels for example.
> 
> 
> I guess one would have to play with the Mie and Rayleigh factor to 
> achieve that. A debug window with 2 sliders would be handy to experiment.
> 
> It also would be nice if Lauri could publish how he computed the 
> factor used in the outscatterscale function.

Okay, thanks for the comments. I'll be holding back on committing. Is there any 
perspective that this patch can be brought to production quality?

> 
> Regards,
> -Fred
> 
> PS: what about the 2.2 release first ? I see plans for lots of code.
> 
> 


Yeah, we should get back to that. What is the current status? I have spend a 
lot of time doing the prepatory work for an eventual release during my holiday, 
but apparently no release has happened during my absence. Are there still any 
showstoppers?

cheers,
Durk

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Simple atmospheric scattering shader for skydome

[Frederic Bouvier]

> On Wed, 2011-04-13 at 19:37 +0200, Durk Talsma wrote:
> 
> > Admittedly, I only looked at the corresponding forum topic very
> briefly, but the screenshots certainly looked promising. I'd be happy
> to commit the corresponding simgear and flightgear patches.
> > 
> > I did see some comments from Fred in the forum thread and I can't
> > tell for sure whether these have been addressed or not. Therefore, I'd
> > like to give others a few days to comment. If I don't hear any
> > objections by the weekend (and if I don't see any negative side
> > effects myself). I'm might go ahead and commit these patches by
> > Saturday. So, just drop a note here if there are problems I should be
> > aware of.

I think Lauri already mentioned he left these issue for the future/other
developers. I am afraid that if it is not sufficiently documented and 
understood by others, it will remain as it is a long time.

> 
> It's not production ready yet, and it even removes some of the features
> form the old code. I don't seem to see any difference with different
> humidity levels for example.


I guess one would have to play with the Mie and Rayleigh factor to 
achieve that. A debug window with 2 sliders would be handy to experiment.

It also would be nice if Lauri could publish how he computed the 
factor used in the outscatterscale function.

Regards,
-Fred

PS: what about the 2.2 release first ? I see plans for lots of code.



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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Simple atmospheric scattering shader for skydome

[Erik Hofman]

On Wed, 2011-04-13 at 19:37 +0200, Durk Talsma wrote:

> Admittedly, I only looked at the corresponding forum topic very briefly, but 
> the screenshots certainly looked promising. I'd be happy to commit the 
> corresponding simgear and flightgear patches.
> 
> I did see some comments from Fred in the forum thread and I can't tell for 
> sure whether these have been addressed or not. Therefore, I'd like to give 
> others a few days to comment. If I don't hear any objections by the weekend 
> (and if I don't see any negative side effects myself). I'm might go ahead and 
> commit these patches by Saturday. So, just drop a note here if there are 
> problems I should be aware of.

It's not production ready yet, and it even removes some of the features
form the old code. I don't seem to see any difference with different
humidity levels for example.

Erik


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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Simple atmospheric scattering shader for skydome

[Durk Talsma]

On 13 Apr 2011, at 00:08, Vivian Meazza wrote:

> 
> It's meant to have been fixed.
> 
> I can push the shader and effects file into git - but someone else will have
> to pick up the flightgear and simgear patches
> 

Admittedly, I only looked at the corresponding forum topic very briefly, but 
the screenshots certainly looked promising. I'd be happy to commit the 
corresponding simgear and flightgear patches.

I did see some comments from Fred in the forum thread and I can't tell for sure 
whether these have been addressed or not. Therefore, I'd like to give others a 
few days to comment. If I don't hear any objections by the weekend (and if I 
don't see any negative side effects myself). I'm might go ahead and commit 
these patches by Saturday. So, just drop a note here if there are problems I 
should be aware of.
Cheers,
Durk


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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Simple atmospheric scattering shader for skydome

[Heiko Schulz]

> It does two things. First I modified the skydome code to be
> more
> configurable so that the precision could be increased
> (number of rings
> and bands). Then I implemented the O'Neil's scattering
> shader to
> showcase the scattering. I know that for the proper effect,
> terrain and
> other objects should use the same shader, but that is
> probably future
> work.

The shader can be switched off, right? It doesn't make sense to use it when a 
lot of things still missing.

I guess it isn't possible yet now that terrain can use this and our currently 
used shaders (crop, transition, water...) together. Or am I wrong here?

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Simple atmospheric scattering shader for skydome

[Vivian Meazza]

Lauri wrote

> 
> Hi,
> 
> I made this patch some time ago, and seems like it is working quite
> fine, so I though if it might be possible to add to git (if nothing
> more, then maybe for future reference)?
> 
> It does two things. First I modified the skydome code to be more
> configurable so that the precision could be increased (number of rings
> and bands). Then I implemented the O'Neil's scattering shader to
> showcase the scattering. I know that for the proper effect, terrain and
> other objects should use the same shader, but that is probably future
> work.
> 
> Anyways, here are links to patches and effects. The flightgear patch
> only makes clearcolor black, so that space is dark instead of gray.
> 
> http://users.tkk.fi/~lapelto2/fgfs/scatter/scatter-simgear.patch
> http://users.tkk.fi/~lapelto2/fgfs/scatter/scatter-flightgear.patch
> 
> http://users.tkk.fi/~lapelto2/fgfs/scatter/skydome.eff
> http://users.tkk.fi/~lapelto2/fgfs/scatter/skydome.frag
> http://users.tkk.fi/~lapelto2/fgfs/scatter/skydome.vert
> 
> Screenshots can be found from the forum thread:
> http://www.flightgear.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=47&t=11274&p=117965#p1179
> 65
> 
> And the command line to run the shader, it needs some properties set:
> fgfs --prop:/sim/rendering/mie=0.003
> --prop:/sim/rendering/rayleigh=0.0003
> --prop:/sim/rendering/dome-density=0.5
> --prop:/sim/rendering/scattering-shader=1

Nice work. I'm not entirely sure about the colours, but that might be a
local issue:

ftp://abbeytheatre2.org.uk:2121/flightgear/Tempest/Tempest-skydome-shader.pn
g
 
> The non-shader version should look just like it used to, but on some
> occasions I think the sunset effect is a bit misplaced. I didn't touch
> that code, so was it always like that? Can someone verify?

This bug?

http://code.google.com/p/flightgear-bugs/issues/detail?id=182&can=1&start=10
0

It's meant to have been fixed.

I can push the shader and effects file into git - but someone else will have
to pick up the flightgear and simgear patches

Vivian





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