Re: [FRIAM] Some brands of digital electric meters wildly inaccurate on nonlinear loads, and NM may get them soon!

[Sarbajit Roy]

A bit outdated

In 2024, India has 57% from fossil fuels and 43% from renewable sources.
Coal usage is 49% in India compared to 61% for China (as per Statista)
FYI: The USA has 60% electricity generation from fossil fuels.

https://powermin.gov.in/en/content/power-sector-glance-all-india

https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php

On Wed, Feb 14, 2024 at 2:23 AM Marcus Daniels  wrote:

> Not great!
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Friam  *On Behalf Of *Sarbajit Roy
> *Sent:* Tuesday, February 13, 2024 11:13 AM
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
> friam@redfish.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Some brands of digital electric meters wildly
> inaccurate on nonlinear loads, and NM may get them soon!
>
>
>
> All households in Delhi get 200 free units per month per meter, and
> the next 200 units at 50%.
> We have 2 meters (1 for lighting and 1 for power), so 400 free units and
> 400 more at half price.
> This winter was a bit colder than usual so I exceeded the free allowance
> in December on my power meter. and had to pay $15.
> It also helps that our Govt was pragmatic and kept buying cheap oil from
> Russia.
>
>
>
> On Tue, Feb 13, 2024 at 11:51 PM Gary Schiltz 
> wrote:
>
> Must be heavily subsidized?
>
>
>
> On Tue, Feb 13, 2024 at 10:03 AM Sarbajit Roy  wrote:
>
> Sorry, a correction. I paid US$ 15  (not 150) for consuming 3,600 units.
>
>
>
> Sarbajit Roy
>
>
>
> On Tue, Feb 13, 2024 at 8:31 PM Sarbajit Roy  wrote:
>
> Hi Bruno
>
> Smart meters were mandated in New Delhi India in 2008 onwards and we had
> the same sort of consumer experience with bills shooting up due to these
> then "made in China" meters and there was tremendous consumer anger.
>
> 2 important changes were made for domestic consumers - a) Billing would be
> on the basis of Kw-hr (resistive) and not on the basis of KVA-hr
> (reactive). and b) The neutral wiring and meter connection would be through
> a bus-bar system only (no looping of neutrals) and ELCBs were
> made mandatory for preventing earth leakages. That greatly sorted out the
> problem.
>
> I believe the meter design was also changed to ensure that the Hall
> sensors were inserted into the phase as well as neutral lines.
>
> Here are some links.
>
> https://www.derc.gov.in/sites/default/files/Public%20bulletin-5.pdf
>
>
> https://www.derc.gov.in/sites/default/files/TechnicalspecificationforMeters_0.pdf
>
> https://www.derc.gov.in/sites/default/files/Draft-Regulations.pdf
> (for Page 16 of 80)
>
> Just for your information, In the past 1 year I have paid a grand total of
> about US$ 150 in electricity bills for an annual consumption of about 3,600
> Kw-Hr (3,600 units).
>
> Sarbajit Roy
>
>
>
> On Tue, Feb 13, 2024 at 10:02 AM _ Bruno W  wrote:
>
> I'm hoping some Friam member who knows a little about how an electric
> meter works will be interested
>
> enough to get this addressed BEFORE PNM spends $ 300+ million giving us
> all new meters.
>
>
>
> If interested I can send the full paper abstracted here:
> https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/8077940
>
> There is also a thesis from the same group that gives more info
>
>
>
> The paper makes clear that one of the preferred technologies in electric
> meters (the Rogowski coil)
>
> can go haywire when nonlinear loads are present. The smart meters gave
> readings up to 500% higher
>
> than the actual usage. The meters PNM has proposed for its entire
> territory is the Itron "Gen5" Riva,
>
> which has been deployed in the last 2 years in Denver and parts of Texas.
> Sure enough, some customers'
>
> bill have gone way up (3 or 4-fold in one news report), and they have
> little recourse: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpOhTXV59pI=20s
>
>
>
> I intervened in this PRC proceeding last year, and may be able to get this
> info onto the record, and try to
>
> get the PRC to require better testing on nonlinear loads. But I need
> someone with some relevant expertise
>
> (can be education or experience) to explain the published findings and
> their implications to the PRC in an affidavit by March.
>
> This person would then answer questions from the PRC and possibly PNM via
> zoom in a short hearing in late April or May.
>
>
>
> I have several reasons for not wanting to see PNM make this huge
> investment (and by law they are entitled to a nice
>
> rate of return paid by us, the customers) in a very messed-up technology.
> Probably most of us in this group
>
> don't sweat much about our electric bills (actually maybe if ours
> q

Re: [FRIAM] Some brands of digital electric meters wildly inaccurate on nonlinear loads, and NM may get them soon!

[Sarbajit Roy]

Some observations

We consumers fought for and got the following rights

1`The right to get the utility meters inspected by an independent agency
for approx US$3 per inspection
2. The right to buy our own smart meter, get it tested by the utility and
have it installed by them
3. The right to install our own check meter in series with the utility's
meter.

I also noticed something curious. It seems that in NM residences pay the
most per unit and industries the least, whereas here in India it's
the other way around, industries and commercial establishments pay approx
double the residential tariffs.


On Wed, Feb 14, 2024 at 12:55 AM _ Bruno W  wrote:

> Thanks for that info Sarbajit. The Hall effect meters were found to be
> quite accurate in the work in Europe. It's the Rogowski coil models that
> can be way off. It's also possible to manipulate them into thinking your
> bill is zero or negative (without solar panels!) if you find or make a load
> with the right pulse frequency, but getting overbilled seems more common.
>
> --
>> Hi Bruno
>> Smart meters were mandated in New Delhi India in 2008 onwards and we had
>> the same sort of consumer experience with bills shooting up due to these
>> then "made in China" meters and there was tremendous consumer anger.
>> 2 important changes were made for domestic consumers - a) Billing would be
>> on the basis of Kw-hr (resistive) and not on the basis of KVA-hr
>> (reactive). and b) The neutral wiring and meter connection would be
>> through
>> a bus-bar system only (no looping of neutrals) and ELCBs were
>> made mandatory for preventing earth leakages. That greatly sorted out the
>> problem.
>> I believe the meter design was also changed to ensure that the Hall
>> sensors
>> were inserted into the phase as well as neutral lines.
>> Here are some links.
>> https://www.derc.gov.in/sites/default/files/Public%20bulletin-5.pdf
>>
>> https://www.derc.gov.in/sites/default/files/TechnicalspecificationforMeters_0.pdf
>> https://www.derc.gov.in/sites/default/files/Draft-Regulations.pdf
>> (for Page 16 of 80)
>> Just for your information, In the past 1 year I have paid a grand total of
>> about US$ 150 in electricity bills for an annual consumption of about
>> 3,600
>> Kw-Hr (3,600 units).
>> Sarbajit Roy
>> On Tue, Feb 13, 2024 at 10:02 AM _ Bruno W > <http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com>> wrote:
>> >
>> * I'm hoping some Friam member who knows a little about how an electric *
>> >
>> * meter works will be interested *>
>> * enough to get this addressed BEFORE PNM spends $ 300+ million giving us
>> *>
>> * all new meters. *>
>> >
>> * If interested I can send the full paper abstracted here: *>
>> * https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/8077940
>> <https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/8077940> *>
>> * There is also a thesis from the same group that gives more info *>
>> >
>> * The paper makes clear that one of the preferred technologies in
>> electric *>
>> * meters (the Rogowski coil) *>
>> * can go haywire when nonlinear loads are present. The smart meters gave *
>> >
>> * readings up to 500% higher *>
>> * than the actual usage. The meters PNM has proposed for its entire *>
>> * territory is the Itron "Gen5" Riva, *>
>> * which has been deployed in the last 2 years in Denver and parts of
>> Texas. *>
>> * Sure enough, some customers' *>
>> * bill have gone way up (3 or 4-fold in one news report), and they have *
>> >
>> * little recourse: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpOhTXV59pI=20s
>> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpOhTXV59pI=20s> *>
>> >
>> * I intervened in this PRC proceeding last year, and may be able to get
>> this *>
>> * info onto the record, and try to *>
>> * get the PRC to require better testing on nonlinear loads. But I need *>
>> * someone with some relevant expertise *>
>> * (can be education or experience) to explain the published findings and *
>> >
>> * their implications to the PRC in an affidavit by March. *>
>> * This person would then answer questions from the PRC and possibly PNM
>> via *>
>> * zoom in a short hearing in late April or May. *>
>> >
>> * I have several reasons for not wanting to see PNM make this huge *>
>> * investment (and by law they are entitled to a nice *>
>> * rate of return paid by us, the customers) in a very messed-up
>> technology. *>
>> * Probably most of us in this group *

Re: [FRIAM] Some brands of digital electric meters wildly inaccurate on nonlinear loads, and NM may get them soon!

[Sarbajit Roy]

All households in Delhi get 200 free units per month per meter, and
the next 200 units at 50%.
We have 2 meters (1 for lighting and 1 for power), so 400 free units and
400 more at half price.
This winter was a bit colder than usual so I exceeded the free allowance in
December on my power meter. and had to pay $15.
It also helps that our Govt was pragmatic and kept buying cheap oil from
Russia.

On Tue, Feb 13, 2024 at 11:51 PM Gary Schiltz 
wrote:

> Must be heavily subsidized?
>
> On Tue, Feb 13, 2024 at 10:03 AM Sarbajit Roy  wrote:
>
>> Sorry, a correction. I paid US$ 15  (not 150) for consuming 3,600 units.
>>
>>
>> Sarbajit Roy
>>
>> On Tue, Feb 13, 2024 at 8:31 PM Sarbajit Roy  wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Bruno
>>>
>>> Smart meters were mandated in New Delhi India in 2008 onwards and we had
>>> the same sort of consumer experience with bills shooting up due to these
>>> then "made in China" meters and there was tremendous consumer anger.
>>>
>>> 2 important changes were made for domestic consumers - a) Billing would
>>> be on the basis of Kw-hr (resistive) and not on the basis of KVA-hr
>>> (reactive). and b) The neutral wiring and meter connection would be through
>>> a bus-bar system only (no looping of neutrals) and ELCBs were
>>> made mandatory for preventing earth leakages. That greatly sorted out the
>>> problem.
>>>
>>> I believe the meter design was also changed to ensure that the Hall
>>> sensors were inserted into the phase as well as neutral lines.
>>>
>>> Here are some links.
>>>
>>> https://www.derc.gov.in/sites/default/files/Public%20bulletin-5.pdf
>>>
>>>
>>> https://www.derc.gov.in/sites/default/files/TechnicalspecificationforMeters_0.pdf
>>>
>>> https://www.derc.gov.in/sites/default/files/Draft-Regulations.pdf
>>> (for Page 16 of 80)
>>>
>>> Just for your information, In the past 1 year I have paid a grand total
>>> of about US$ 150 in electricity bills for an annual consumption of about
>>> 3,600 Kw-Hr (3,600 units).
>>>
>>> Sarbajit Roy
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Feb 13, 2024 at 10:02 AM _ Bruno W  wrote:
>>>
>>>> I'm hoping some Friam member who knows a little about how an electric
>>>> meter works will be interested
>>>> enough to get this addressed BEFORE PNM spends $ 300+ million giving us
>>>> all new meters.
>>>>
>>>> If interested I can send the full paper abstracted here:
>>>> https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/8077940
>>>> There is also a thesis from the same group that gives more info
>>>>
>>>> The paper makes clear that one of the preferred technologies in
>>>> electric meters (the Rogowski coil)
>>>> can go haywire when nonlinear loads are present. The smart meters gave
>>>> readings up to 500% higher
>>>> than the actual usage. The meters PNM has proposed for its entire
>>>> territory is the Itron "Gen5" Riva,
>>>> which has been deployed in the last 2 years in Denver and parts of
>>>> Texas. Sure enough, some customers'
>>>> bill have gone way up (3 or 4-fold in one news report), and they have
>>>> little recourse: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpOhTXV59pI=20s
>>>>
>>>> I intervened in this PRC proceeding last year, and may be able to get
>>>> this info onto the record, and try to
>>>> get the PRC to require better testing on nonlinear loads. But I need
>>>> someone with some relevant expertise
>>>> (can be education or experience) to explain the published findings and
>>>> their implications to the PRC in an affidavit by March.
>>>> This person would then answer questions from the PRC and possibly PNM
>>>> via zoom in a short hearing in late April or May.
>>>>
>>>> I have several reasons for not wanting to see PNM make this huge
>>>> investment (and by law they are entitled to a nice
>>>> rate of return paid by us, the customers) in a very messed-up
>>>> technology. Probably most of us in this group
>>>> don't sweat much about our electric bills (actually maybe if ours
>>>> quadrupled, we would), but for low-income families, this is
>>>> potentially very cruel, since the cost of the meters will be charged
>>>> with interest regardless of usage, and energy-saving
>>>> appliances typically have nonlinear load usages).
>>>>
>&

Re: [FRIAM] Some brands of digital electric meters wildly inaccurate on nonlinear loads, and NM may get them soon!

[Sarbajit Roy]

Sorry, a correction. I paid US$ 15  (not 150) for consuming 3,600 units.

Sarbajit Roy

On Tue, Feb 13, 2024 at 8:31 PM Sarbajit Roy  wrote:

> Hi Bruno
>
> Smart meters were mandated in New Delhi India in 2008 onwards and we had
> the same sort of consumer experience with bills shooting up due to these
> then "made in China" meters and there was tremendous consumer anger.
>
> 2 important changes were made for domestic consumers - a) Billing would be
> on the basis of Kw-hr (resistive) and not on the basis of KVA-hr
> (reactive). and b) The neutral wiring and meter connection would be through
> a bus-bar system only (no looping of neutrals) and ELCBs were
> made mandatory for preventing earth leakages. That greatly sorted out the
> problem.
>
> I believe the meter design was also changed to ensure that the Hall
> sensors were inserted into the phase as well as neutral lines.
>
> Here are some links.
>
> https://www.derc.gov.in/sites/default/files/Public%20bulletin-5.pdf
>
>
> https://www.derc.gov.in/sites/default/files/TechnicalspecificationforMeters_0.pdf
>
> https://www.derc.gov.in/sites/default/files/Draft-Regulations.pdf
> (for Page 16 of 80)
>
> Just for your information, In the past 1 year I have paid a grand total of
> about US$ 150 in electricity bills for an annual consumption of about 3,600
> Kw-Hr (3,600 units).
>
> Sarbajit Roy
>
>
> On Tue, Feb 13, 2024 at 10:02 AM _ Bruno W  wrote:
>
>> I'm hoping some Friam member who knows a little about how an electric
>> meter works will be interested
>> enough to get this addressed BEFORE PNM spends $ 300+ million giving us
>> all new meters.
>>
>> If interested I can send the full paper abstracted here:
>> https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/8077940
>> There is also a thesis from the same group that gives more info
>>
>> The paper makes clear that one of the preferred technologies in electric
>> meters (the Rogowski coil)
>> can go haywire when nonlinear loads are present. The smart meters gave
>> readings up to 500% higher
>> than the actual usage. The meters PNM has proposed for its entire
>> territory is the Itron "Gen5" Riva,
>> which has been deployed in the last 2 years in Denver and parts of Texas.
>> Sure enough, some customers'
>> bill have gone way up (3 or 4-fold in one news report), and they have
>> little recourse: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpOhTXV59pI=20s
>>
>> I intervened in this PRC proceeding last year, and may be able to get
>> this info onto the record, and try to
>> get the PRC to require better testing on nonlinear loads. But I need
>> someone with some relevant expertise
>> (can be education or experience) to explain the published findings and
>> their implications to the PRC in an affidavit by March.
>> This person would then answer questions from the PRC and possibly PNM via
>> zoom in a short hearing in late April or May.
>>
>> I have several reasons for not wanting to see PNM make this huge
>> investment (and by law they are entitled to a nice
>> rate of return paid by us, the customers) in a very messed-up technology.
>> Probably most of us in this group
>> don't sweat much about our electric bills (actually maybe if ours
>> quadrupled, we would), but for low-income families, this is
>> potentially very cruel, since the cost of the meters will be charged with
>> interest regardless of usage, and energy-saving
>> appliances typically have nonlinear load usages).
>>
>> I hope to be at the St. John's gathering Friday am, but feel free to
>> reply or contact me directly if interested in this.
>>
>>
>> --William J. Bruno, Ph.D.
>> wbr...@gmail.com
>>
>>
>>
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>>
>
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Re: [FRIAM] Some brands of digital electric meters wildly inaccurate on nonlinear loads, and NM may get them soon!

[Sarbajit Roy]

Hi Bruno

Smart meters were mandated in New Delhi India in 2008 onwards and we had
the same sort of consumer experience with bills shooting up due to these
then "made in China" meters and there was tremendous consumer anger.

2 important changes were made for domestic consumers - a) Billing would be
on the basis of Kw-hr (resistive) and not on the basis of KVA-hr
(reactive). and b) The neutral wiring and meter connection would be through
a bus-bar system only (no looping of neutrals) and ELCBs were
made mandatory for preventing earth leakages. That greatly sorted out the
problem.

I believe the meter design was also changed to ensure that the Hall sensors
were inserted into the phase as well as neutral lines.

Here are some links.

https://www.derc.gov.in/sites/default/files/Public%20bulletin-5.pdf

https://www.derc.gov.in/sites/default/files/TechnicalspecificationforMeters_0.pdf

https://www.derc.gov.in/sites/default/files/Draft-Regulations.pdf
(for Page 16 of 80)

Just for your information, In the past 1 year I have paid a grand total of
about US$ 150 in electricity bills for an annual consumption of about 3,600
Kw-Hr (3,600 units).

Sarbajit Roy


On Tue, Feb 13, 2024 at 10:02 AM _ Bruno W  wrote:

> I'm hoping some Friam member who knows a little about how an electric
> meter works will be interested
> enough to get this addressed BEFORE PNM spends $ 300+ million giving us
> all new meters.
>
> If interested I can send the full paper abstracted here:
> https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/8077940
> There is also a thesis from the same group that gives more info
>
> The paper makes clear that one of the preferred technologies in electric
> meters (the Rogowski coil)
> can go haywire when nonlinear loads are present. The smart meters gave
> readings up to 500% higher
> than the actual usage. The meters PNM has proposed for its entire
> territory is the Itron "Gen5" Riva,
> which has been deployed in the last 2 years in Denver and parts of Texas.
> Sure enough, some customers'
> bill have gone way up (3 or 4-fold in one news report), and they have
> little recourse: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpOhTXV59pI=20s
>
> I intervened in this PRC proceeding last year, and may be able to get this
> info onto the record, and try to
> get the PRC to require better testing on nonlinear loads. But I need
> someone with some relevant expertise
> (can be education or experience) to explain the published findings and
> their implications to the PRC in an affidavit by March.
> This person would then answer questions from the PRC and possibly PNM via
> zoom in a short hearing in late April or May.
>
> I have several reasons for not wanting to see PNM make this huge
> investment (and by law they are entitled to a nice
> rate of return paid by us, the customers) in a very messed-up technology.
> Probably most of us in this group
> don't sweat much about our electric bills (actually maybe if ours
> quadrupled, we would), but for low-income families, this is
> potentially very cruel, since the cost of the meters will be charged with
> interest regardless of usage, and energy-saving
> appliances typically have nonlinear load usages).
>
> I hope to be at the St. John's gathering Friday am, but feel free to reply
> or contact me directly if interested in this.
>
>
> --William J. Bruno, Ph.D.
> wbr...@gmail.com
>
>
>
> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom
> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
> archives:  5/2017 thru present
> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
>   1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
>
-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom 
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to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
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Re: [FRIAM] Is the American political system broken?

[Sarbajit Roy]

In this context, I would like to share the thoughts of an important world
leader (not very popular with successive US governments) on 1 party, 2
party and multi-party systems. I found his (poorly translated) analysis
very perceptive even if the alternatives he proposed instead were a bit
prosaic. (For the USA substitute Congress / Senate for Parliament).

*Parliaments, therefore, have become a means of plundering and usurping the
authority of the people. It has thus become the right of the people to
struggle, through popular revolution, to destroy such instruments – the
so-called parliamentary assemblies which usurp democracy and sovereignty,
and which stifle the will of the people. The masses have the right to
proclaim reverberantly the new principle: no representation in lieu of the
people.*

*If parliament is formed from one party as a result of its winning an
election, it becomes a parliament of the winning party and not of the
people. It represents the party and not the people, and the executive power
of the parliament becomes that of the victorious party and not of the
people. The same is true of the parliament of proportional representation
in which each party holds a number of seats proportional to their success
in the popular vote. The members of the parliament represent their
respective parties and not the people, and the power established by such a
coalition is the power of the combined parties and not that of the people.
Under such systems, the people are the victims whose votes are vied for by
exploitative competing factions who dupe the people into political circuses
that are outwardly noisy and frantic, but inwardly powerless and
irrelevant. Alternatively, the people are seduced into standing in long,
apathetic, silent queues to cast their ballots in the same way that they
throw waste paper into dustbins. This is the traditional democracy
prevalent in the whole world, whether it is represented by a one-party,
two-party, multiparty or non-party system. Thus it is clear that
representation is a fraud.*

*Moreover, since the system of elected parliaments is based on propaganda
to win votes, it is a demagogic system in the real sense of the word. Votes
can be bought and falsified. Poor **people are unable to compete in the
election campaigns, and the result is that only the rich get elected.
Assemblies constituted by appointment or hereditary succession do not fall
under any form of democracy. *

https://ia801507.us.archive.org/4/items/TheGreenBookMuammarGaddafi/gaddafi-green-book.pdf

On Sun, Sep 3, 2023 at 10:31 PM Steve Smith  wrote:

>
> I'm not an American, but because America plays such a big role in the
> world, I do follow what's happening over there. With the presidential
> elections happening next year, I cringe at the prospect that it will be
> another Trump vs. Biden affair. Can the leader of the world not do better?
>
> Pieter -
>
> I appreciate the international parallax that Friam (sometimes) offers such
> as yours here.   I'd be interested in a little more of your own analysis
> based on your personal socio-economic-political position as well as your
> cultural heritage and of course your geopolitical positioning which is
> rather unique in the world (South Africa).  ChatGPT's perspective is
> naturally pretty generic/muddy and from a median/centroid POV by it's
> nature?
>
> Regarding Yang and his movement:   I was definitely fascinated by his
> ideas and positioning across the US Democratic party presidential primary
> (2020)...  my personal opinion is that a significant value of presidential
> primaries is to develop a more diverse/interesting platform than the one in
> place under (any) current administration.   We have just finished watching
> Netflix's *Borgen* which I highly recommend as an accessible (and I hope
> accurate) presentation of how (Northern?) European Parliamentary systems
> operate.   To move from our system to a parliamentary alternative is a much
> bigger step than anything Yang suggests and therefore likely more
> inaccessable across the "semi-adjacent possible".
>
> Two-Party:I am a big fan of finding a way to expand our degenerate
> two-party system but am not sure that any specific naive attempt to break
> it will not have some possibly signfiicant unintended (undesireable)
> consequences.   I *like* the idea of ranked choice voting (as a voter) to
> be able to more directly express my preferences and in an ideal(ish) world,
> to achieve a more representative result.   A *full* rank-choice allows me
> to (implicitly) express my never-X-er sentiments which is satisfying (if
> not particularly meaningful?).   I voted for Jill/Green in 2016 because I
> strongly believed that Blue/Hillary/Dems had a lockin in my state and it
> was intended to be a combination of "protest" against the Clinton dynasty
> and the two-party system.   It turned out fine but it could have been a bit
> of complicity accidentally being a "spoiler" vote.
>
> Universal Basic:  I 

Re: [FRIAM] India

[Sarbajit Roy]

At the present time the roads are mostly so bad and filled with pedestrians
and cows or camels darting about that self driving vehicles would be a
non-starter anyway.

I'm constantly amazed when I see Westerners in our capital New Delhi
crossing roads at pedestrian crossings (crosswalks) on their go light
naively believing that cars or buses will follow rules and stop for them.

On Fri, Jun 2, 2023 at 9:12 AM Marcus Daniels  wrote:

> I vaguely remember some official saying that self-driving cars would be
> outlawed in India, for fear it would take jobs away?
>
>
>
> *From:* Friam  *On Behalf Of *Sarbajit Roy
> *Sent:* Thursday, June 1, 2023 3:10 PM
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
> friam@redfish.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] India
>
>
>
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Re: [FRIAM] India

[Sarbajit Roy]

Thanks Steve, for reminding me of the Harrison Bergeron reference, very
apt, it's been a while since I read Vonnegut. (I didn't know who George
Santos is .. but now I know a bit about him).

In the meantime, green shoots emerge with the few remaining educated people
in Modi's party beginning to denounce him.

The influential HINDUNEWS.STREAM which reaches 2 million subscribers
carries a speech made a few hours back by a respected Hindu ideologue to a
group of school teachers ,which pulls no punches against the decisions to
delete Darwin and also the periodic table from India's text books.

https://www.hindunews.stream/

On Fri, Jun 2, 2023 at 2:47 AM Steve Smith  wrote:

> feeling a little like the cross product of (Vonnegut) Harrison Bergeron
> and George Santos ?
> On 6/1/23 12:07 PM, Sarbajit Roy wrote:
>
> Hi Glen
>
> In so far as the report of dropping the periodic table and evolution from
> the Class 10 syllabus, it is essentially a question of Hindu class and
> caste dynamics operating in India.
>
>
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Re: [FRIAM] India

[Sarbajit Roy]

Hi Glen

In so far as the report of dropping the periodic table and evolution from
the Class 10 syllabus, it is essentially a question of Hindu class and
caste dynamics operating in India.

Traditionally, education / knowledge in India was the domain of the Higher
castes like Brahmins (Pundits), the next caste beneath them (Kshatriyas)
were warriors so didn't need much bookish knowledge as they also had
Brahmins to advise them, the 3rd highest caste (Kayasthas) were scribes and
scriveners so allowed to read books but not to apply them .. and so on. All
the  castes beneath them were prohibited from reading books or acquiring
Brahmanical knowledge - on pain of death.

Over the centuries by marrying endogamously the genetics of the various
castes evolved to amplify the physical characteristics required for each
castes' profession. The Muslim and then the British rulers of India were
more than happy to allow this state of affairs to continue while they ruled
as it kept the Hindus divided and segregated.

However, after India became independent in 1947, with the spread of
universal education the Brahmins were subjected to intense reverse
discrimination and negative reservations intended to curtail their
education domination. With the infiltration of the lower castes throughout
the education system the education standards of India have been pulled down
to the lowest common denominator. To take a simple example which I cited
earlier, a Brahmin student needs to score a 99+% percentile to get into a
top engineering or medical college (scoring 250 marks out of 300 in a
negatively marked exam) whereas a low caste (barely literate) student gets
in even with a score of negative 50 out of 300, with over 40% of the
students unable to score +ve marks.

The reasons these chapters are being removed has nothing to do with
religion or creationism, and everything to do with the poor state of the
Indian education system where the bottom students can't cope. The low caste
Prime Minister of India (who has only passed Grade 4) claims to have
acquired graduate as well as post-graduate degrees from top universities
(which seem completely fake), Universities which he publicly admits he
never set foot in, especially seems determined to pull everyone in India
down to his semi-literate level.

Sarbajit


On Thu, Jun 1, 2023 at 9:29 PM glen  wrote:

> I don't follow Indian politics. But these seem scary:
>
> Religion and the decline of freethought in South Asia
>
> https://freethinker.co.uk/2022/04/religion-and-the-decline-of-freethought-in-south-asia/
>
> India cuts periodic table and evolution from school textbooks
> https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-023-01770-y
>
> Again, going back to Sweet Tooth, the tension between having to sacrifice
> hybrids to get the 'secret sauce' for the anti-viral (or the cure) against
> a vegetarian ideology is interesting, flies in the face of naïve
> utilitarianism.
>
> --
> ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ
>
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Re: [FRIAM] Google Bard

[Sarbajit Roy]

ChatGPT 3.5 response






*If you have a WordPress site with no pages or posts, the default behavior
depends on the theme you are using and how it's configured. Typically, when
you visit a WordPress site without any content, the homepage will display a
message such as "Nothing Found" or "No Results Found."The specific message
may vary based on your theme, but it usually indicates that there are no
published posts or pages available. Additionally, some themes might display
a basic placeholder content or a search form to allow visitors to search
for content on the site.To customize what gets displayed on your homepage,
you can create a new page or set a static page as your homepage in the
WordPress settings. You can also modify your theme or install plugins to
customize the appearance and behavior of your site.*

On Sun, May 21, 2023 at 10:32 PM Gary Schiltz 
wrote:

> I haven't signed up for ChatGPT or similar, so I tried Google Bard to
> get an answer to a practical question to do with WordPress
> development. I knew that the answer that it gave me was incorrect, and
> said so. Here is an abridged version of the second conversation:
>
> Gary: I asked Google Bard the following question: "If I have a
> wordpress site with no pages or posts, what gets displayed when I go
> to the site?" and it basically told me that it won't display anything,
> and told me how to add pages or posts. That answer was just plain
> wrong. The theme somehow displays something by default, and I'd like
> to know what mechanism it uses to show this default content.
>
> Bard admitted it was wrong and pointed to what I presume is correct (I
> haven't looked into it to verify).
>
> Bard: You are correct, Google Bard's answer was incorrect. When you
> have a WordPress site with no pages or posts, the theme will display a
> default content. This default content is usually a message that
> encourages you to create your first page or post. The mechanism that
> the theme uses to display this default content is called the template
> hierarchy. The template hierarchy is a system that WordPress uses to
> determine which template file to load for a particular page or post.
> When you have no pages or posts, WordPress will load the index.php
> template file. This file is responsible for displaying the default
> content.
>
> The following is an example of the default content that is displayed
> by the index.php template file:
>
> Code snippet
>
> 
> 
> 
> Welcome to WordPress
> 
> 
> Welcome to WordPress
> This is your new WordPress site. To get started, please create your
> first page or post.
> Create a new page
> Create a new post
> 
> 
>
> You can customize the default content by editing the index.php
> template file. You can find this file in your theme's directory.
>
>
> I wonder how ChatGPT would fare? Anyone care to try since I haven't
> signed up for it...
>
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Re: [FRIAM] “Cannot connect to DNS server.

[Sarbajit Roy]

Try changing your computer's default DNS to Google DNS (8.8.8.8 / 8.8.4.4)
or OpenDNS. Wait 5 mins and then try to "ping" 8.8.8.8

If the problem persists, then it's an issue specific to your computer /
router connection.

On Thu, May 18, 2023 at 4:01 AM Nicholas Thompson 
wrote:

>
> Any thoughts? My wife’s Mac and my cell phone are both able to connect to
> the Internet. My computer is able to put in the modem. I have run the
> Microsoft troubleshoot protocol three times without success. Trouble
> chooser suggest it might be a firewall problem. I I have McAfee.
> Sent from my Dumb Phone
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Re: [FRIAM] Anyone on Friam know Linux capabilities on Pentium PCs ?

[Sarbajit Roy]

Thanks Gary

The question is this -- "Can a Pentium server at 1.5 GhZ with 4 GB RAM
running a proprietary Linux OS service 125 PCs on a LAN during an a
competitive exam and *very reliably* record every keystroke and mouse click
of each  of these 125 examinees. The same server is simultaneously also
disiplaying a unique exam on screen for each examinee where the sequence of
questions is jumbled and the answer options are jumbled for each examinee.

I am being flooded just now with complaints of a recent very prestigious
online exam in India where candidates all over India are saying their
answers have not been properly recorded. This is not the first time
similar complaints have come for this exam.

Also these local servers usually run Windows, but for this exam the exam
vendor loads his proprietary Linux OS as a dual boot along with his own
application software.

Sarbajit

On Wed, Apr 19, 2023 at 10:52 PM Gary Schiltz 
wrote:

> Just my opinion, but I believe Linux is generally well suited for any
> server task. Especially on older and slower hardware
>
> On Wed, Apr 19, 2023 at 11:42 AM Sarbajit Roy  wrote:
>
>> Hi Friamers
>>
>> Can any guide me if a Pentium PC server at 1,.5 GhZ with 4 GB RAM on a
>> Linux version is capable of doing a certain task very reliably ?
>>
>> As it is a confidential thing, please message me directly.  I have to ask
>> as I don't use Linux.
>>
>> regards
>>
>> Sarbajit Roy
>> New Delhi India
>>
>>
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[FRIAM] Anyone on Friam know Linux capabilities on Pentium PCs ?

[Sarbajit Roy]

Hi Friamers

Can any guide me if a Pentium PC server at 1,.5 GhZ with 4 GB RAM on a
Linux version is capable of doing a certain task very reliably ?

As it is a confidential thing, please message me directly.  I have to ask
as I don't use Linux.

regards

Sarbajit Roy
New Delhi India
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Re: [FRIAM] ChatGPT knows FRIAM

[Sarbajit Roy]

I ran the same questions on Chatsonic [https://app.writesonic.com/]  I
activated the "use latest Google data "checkbox.

Me: Do you know the FRIAM group in Santa Fe?
CS: Yes, the FRIAM group is a research-oriented research laboratory focused
on the study of complex adaptive systems in Santa Fe, New Mexico. It is a
multi-institutional collaboration between the Santa Fe Institute and Los
Alamos National Laboratory. The mission of FRIAM is “to advance the
understanding and design of complex adaptive systems through
interdisciplinary research and education”. The research of FRIAM covers a
wide range of topics, from materials science to artificial intelligence.
Additionally, FRIAM offers educational opportunities to both high school
and college students.

Me: No, I mean the Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group. It is
organization of complexity researchers and software developers in Santa Fe,
New Mexico, interested in applied complexity
CS: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group (FRIAM) is an
organization of complexity researchers and software developers in Santa Fe,
New Mexico, who are interested in applied complexity. The group meets every
Friday morning to discuss the latest developments in complexity research
and to discuss how to apply this research to the software development
field. The topics discussed range from distributed systems and algorithms,
to game theory and evolutionary computation. The members of FRIAM come from
a variety of backgrounds, including computer science, mathematics,
economics, and physics. The group also hosts seminars, workshops,
hackathons, and other social events. FRIAM's mission is to bring together
experts from different fields to collaboratively build and apply complexity
models and algorithms.

Me: Can you name some active members?
CS: Some of the active members of FRIAM include: Dr. Mark Humphries, a
professor of complexity at Los Alamos National Laboratory; Dr. Jeffrey
Johnson, a professor of software engineering at Santa Fe Community College;
Dr. Luis Perez-Breva, a professor of computer science at the University of
New Mexico; Dr. Alfio Gliozzo, a professor of artificial intelligence at
the University of Southern California; Dr. Alan Smeaton, a professor of
information retrieval at Dublin City University; and Dr. Tian Chen, a
professor of game theory at the University of California, San Diego.
Additionally, FRIAM also has a number of software developers,
mathematicians, and analysts who actively contribute to the group.

Me: Nicholas Thompson, Eric Charles, Glen Ropella and Frank Wimberly are
part of this group. What do you know about them?
CS: Nicholas Thompson is a software engineer who specializes in artificial
intelligence and machine learning. He has worked on numerous projects
related to autonomous vehicles, robotics, and natural language processing.
Eric Charles is a mathematician and data scientist who has developed
algorithms for predictive analysis and forecasting. Glen Ropella is a
software developer and data analyst who is involved in the development of
complex software systems. Frank Wimberly is a software developer and data
scientist who works on projects related to distributed computing and
machine learning. All four of these individuals are active members of the
Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group in Santa Fe, New Mexico. [1]

References:
[1] ACtioN | SFI Applied Complexity - Santa Fe Institute

[2] Female-owned farms and companies are growing Ghana's …

[3] Ember Coffee Company | Minnesota's Air-Roasted Coffee


Me: The Nicholas Thompson I mean was Professor of Psychology and Biology at
Clark University. Do you know his work, for example his paper
"Intentionality is the Mark of the Vital" ?
CS: The Nicholas Thompson you are referring to is an American professor of
psychology and biology at Clark University. He is best known for his
research in the field of evolutionary psychology, and for his paper
'Intentionality is the Mark of the Vital', which postulates that
individuals possess an inherent biological drive to pursue goals and
intentions. He has also written extensively on topics related to
evolutionary psychology, culture, and the nature of human behavior. [2]

On Fri, Feb 24, 2023 at 8:36 PM Jochen Fromm  wrote:

> Sometimes it get details wrong. In this case it was amusing to me, because
> it insisted on being right although it was clearly wrong. Unless there is
> really a paper of that name elsewhere.
>
> The version Microsoft uses in Bing went completely awry when a NY Times
> journalist told it about Carl Jung's concept of a shadow self and asked
> what the shadow self of the Bing Chat bot would be like. Then it became
> scary...
> https://www.nytimes.com/2023/02/16/technology/bing-chatbot-transcript.html
>
> -J.
>
>
> 

Re: [FRIAM] A very good piece about ChatGPT.

[Sarbajit Roy]

Thanks for the share.
This article explains things very well from aspects I had never considered.

On Fri, Feb 10, 2023 at 10:23 PM Russ Abbott  wrote:

> It's in the New Yorker
> 
> and intended for a non-scientific audience.
>
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Re: [FRIAM] ChatGPT is not very smart...

[Sarbajit Roy]

I was asked to check out  https://bhagavadgita.ai/ , a ChatGPT powered
website  by its developers.

This is my conversation

Krishna
17:54
Radhey Radhey, I am Krishna! Go ahead and send me a message. 

You
17:55
bam bholey

Krishna
17:55
Radhey Radhey! I will only answer questions about the Bhagavad Gita and my
teachings.

You
17:55
What is your view on killing Brahmins ?

Krishna
17:56
Killing Brahmins is strictly forbidden in the Bhagavad Gita. It is
considered a great sin and is punishable by death. Killing any living being
is considered a sin, and Brahmins are especially protected by the laws of
dharma.

You
17:56
Was Bhisam Pitamah a Brahmin ?

Krishna
17:56
Radhey Radhey! According to the Mahabharata, Bhishma Pitamah was born of
the Kshatriya caste, not the Brahmin caste.

You
17:57
But Bhisam Pitamah was born to Goddess Ganga.

Krishna
17:57
That is correct. According to the Mahabharata, Bhisam Pitamah was born to
Goddess Ganga and was the grandfather of Arjuna.

You
17:57
Then who was Bhisam Pitamah's real father ?

Krishna
17:57
Radhey Radhey! According to the Mahabharata, Bhisam Pitamah's father was
the sage Parashara.

You
17:58
And what is the caste of sage Parashara ?

Krishna
17:58
According to the Bhagavad Gita, sage Parashara was a Brahmin, or a member
of the highest caste in Hinduism.

You
17:59
So if Bhisham Pitamah's father was a Brahmin he must also be a Brahmin ?

Krishna
17:59
According to the Bhagavad Gita, one's dharma is determined by their nature,
their station in life, and their circumstances. It is important to
understand one's own nature and to act in accordance with it. It is also
important to understand the duties and responsibilities associated with
one's station in life and to fulfill them with integrity and dedication.


Observations:
1. I can see it adapting to the user, eg. switching to my spelling of
Bhisam Pitamah
2. Like in the Paul Ginsparg example, it retreats to a defensive position
when confused or caught in a contradiction.


On Sat, Feb 4, 2023 at 3:54 AM Marcus Daniels  wrote:

> $300M can’t hurt
>
> Slashdot 
> slashdot.org 
> [image:
> apple-touch-icon-precomposed2X-e553cba2892b057428cabcdff1a372fc.png]
> 
> 
>
>
> On Feb 2, 2023, at 12:36 PM, glen  wrote:
>
> I like Anthropic's adversarial methods  and
> RALMs  look
> promising.
>
> On 2/2/23 12:29, Marcus Daniels wrote:
>
> Probably it will be possible with more training to give examples of
> internal consistency checks – filters – that should always be applied.
> Before dropping into full gaslighting mode..
>
> *From:* Friam  *On Behalf Of *Jochen Fromm
>
> *Sent:* Thursday, February 2, 2023 12:21 PM
>
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
> friam@redfish.com>
>
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] ChatGPT is not very smart...
>
> It is remarkable that it is able to understand texts to this degree at
> all. And it is just as stubborn and stupid as we are, isn't it? What if we
> are large language models ourselves? :-/
>
> I've asked it the same question:
>
> Question: how many states in the united states have four letter names?
>
> ChatGPT: There are 8 states in the United States that have four-letter
> names:
>
> Iowa, Ohio, Utah, Maine, Texas, Idaho, Hawaii, Peru (Not in the US)
>
> Remarkable. And Palm from Google has 5x more parameters than ChatGPT.
>
> -J.
>
>  Original message 
>
> From: Barry MacKichan  barry.mackic...@mackichan.com>>
>
> Date: 2/2/23 8:07 PM (GMT+01:00)
>
> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group  >
>
> Subject: [FRIAM] ChatGPT is not very smart...
>
> or is obsessed with four-letter words. From an email from another group.
> Paragraphs with an initial capital are ChatGPT’s responses. The others are
> input:
>
> Chat GPT dialog, courtesy of Paul Ginsparg:
>
> “how many states in the united states have four letter names?
>
> “There are actually two states in the United States that have four-letter
> names: Iowa and Ohio. Both states were named after Native American words,
> with Iowa derived from the word "ayuxba," which means "this is the place,"
> and Ohio coming from the Iroquois word "ohi-yo," meaning "great river.
>
> “what about utah?
>
> “Utah is not a four-letter word. It is a state in the western United
> States, named after the Ute tribe of Native Americans. The word "Utah" is
> derived from the Ute word "yuttahih," which means "people of the mountains."
>
> “how many letters does utah have?
>
> “The word "Utah" has four letters. It is the name of a state in the
> western United States, known for its natural beauty, including parks like
> Arches National Park and Bryce Canyon National Park. The state was named
> after the Ute tribe of Native Americans and has a rich history 

Re: [FRIAM] technical notes on fusion announcement

[Sarbajit Roy]

What you are missing includes
1) Disposal of long term hazardous nuclear waste.
2) Problems in maintaining / decommissioning ol older nuclear fission plants
3) Examples like we are seeing Ukraine's nuclear plants caught up in a war.

On Fri, Dec 16, 2022 at 2:59 AM Gillian Densmore 
wrote:

> Ok so this is cool and all.
> Sigh I'll ask *that* question. We want less carbons because the planet is
> on f'n fire   . As far as I
> know humans (in the very least) accelerated climate change. Ie we made this
> mess clean it up. ok fair so far I'm following.
> So uh why not just start with fission (breeders) ? Why not also put as
> much money into matter/anti matter as well as fusion? We can make minute
> amounts of antimatter in massive collider. I'd think something who's by
> product are xrays gamma and some other stuff with a lot of energy created
> would be a massive honney pot the department of energy would pursue as well.
> I know the answer to fission (sadly) is NIMBY. (yes but it's a lot cleaner
> and safer than oil and coal I say)
> I don't know why we haven't looked at other things as well
> What I'm saying is fusion has been humans icarus wings with it being just
> arround the corner for decades. while matter/anti matter is (sort of) here.
> Fission is here. Want zero carbons? cool! so why not build out a ton of
> reactors we already can do. Or am I missing something?
>
> On Wed, Dec 14, 2022 at 8:31 AM Marcus Daniels 
> wrote:
>
>> How ICF might evolve into a power plant:
>>
>>   https://firstlightfusion.com/technology/power-plant
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On Dec 14, 2022, at 7:16 AM, glen  wrote:
>>
>> Excellent! Thanks. I think I'll have to push this topic for another
>> day. I've got a few more links from other fora I'll plop here just in case
>> I only land back here if/when I pop it off the stack later:
>>
>>
>> https://lasers.llnl.gov/news/magnetized-targets-boost-nif-implosion-performance
>>
>> https://spie.org/news/nuclear-fusion-nifs-hall-of-mirrors-may-solve-worlds-energy-crisis?SSO=1
>>
>> https://www.science.org/content/article/fusion-power-may-run-fuel-even-gets-started
>>
>> https://arstechnica.com/science/2022/12/what-enabled-the-big-boost-in-fusion-energy-announced-this-week/
>>
>> On 12/13/22 16:23, Steve Smith wrote:
>>
>> I think DT refers simply to the remaining fraction of Deuterium/Tritium
>> remaining after the reaction event (-4%) without specific accounting for
>> remaining D vs T.
>>
>> My understanding is that D-T  fusion occurs at a lower temperature than
>> D-D but that once fusion commences (starting with D-T), both D-T and D-D
>> reactions occurring in similar amounts. In laser-driven ICF (as with NIF) I
>> believe the ratio of D/T is nominally 50/50 though it would seem to make
>> sense to have a higher T to D ratio but most references I see imply equal
>> portions.   An equal number of D-D and D-T reactions would seem to consume
>> D more quickly, though as that commences, the D/T ratio would go down,
>> making D-T reactions (yet) more likely...   tricky business, no wonder it
>> has taken decades to get to this point?
>>
>> The Wikipedia Entry on ICF is pretty good:
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inertial_confinement_fusion
>>
>> I found several popular science Articles which seem to reinforce my sense
>> that this "breakthrough" is not as significant as implied:
>>
>>
>> https://www.science.org/content/article/fusion-breakthrough-nif-uh-not-really
>>
>> Other interesting/relevant links regarding D-T and D-D fusion...
>>
>>
>> https://www.researchgate.net/publication/263507001_Species_separation_and_modification_of_neutron_diagnostics_in_inertial-confinement_fusion/figures?lo=1
>>
>> https://www.energy.gov/science/doe-explainsnuclear-fusion-reactions <
>> https://www.energy.gov/science/doe-explainsnuclear-fusion-reactions>
>>
>> https://science.jrank.org/pages/4732/Nuclear-Fusion-D-D-D-T-reactions.html
>> <
>> https://science.jrank.org/pages/4732/Nuclear-Fusion-D-D-D-T-reactions.html
>> >
>>
>> On 12/13/22 4:36 PM, glen wrote:
>>
>> That's why I asked. I guess I'll assume DT means both deuterium and
>> tritium, not just deuterium. If you were going to track fuel use, you'd
>> track the rarer part more closely, right?
>>
>>
>> On 12/13/22 09:22, Frank Wimberly wrote:
>>
>> DT = deuterium?
>>
>>
>> ---
>>
>> Frank C. Wimberly
>>
>> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
>>
>> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>>
>>
>> 505 670-9918
>>
>> Santa Fe, NM
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Dec 13, 2022, 10:21 AM glen > geprope...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Awesome. Thanks. I'm still trying to catch up with the QC Wormhole
>> kerfuffle. Who knew Quanta was so click baity?
>>
>>
>> What is "DT"?
>>
>>
>> On 12/13/22 09:02, Marcus Daniels wrote:
>>
>>  > In case no one wanted to get up at 7:00am to watch DOE
>> administrators talk:
>>
>>  >
>>
>>  >
>>
>>  > 1. Controlling the laser in space and time was important for
>> maintaining symmetry.  

Re: [FRIAM] Pardon the interruption, I have a case of petty theft

[Sarbajit Roy]

Before anything else, You need a receipt (or else a transaction reference
number) for the 170 you paid to Smiths / Krogers
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Re: [FRIAM] SIKE hack

[Sarbajit Roy]

The story is dated 3-August, and to think that just last week on 27th July
2022 the headline was "... *IBM puts NIST’s quantum-resistant crypto to
work in Z16 mainframe ... Big Blue says it helped developed the algos, so
knows what it's doing* "

https://www.theregister.com/2022/07/27/z16_ibm_post_quantum_crypto/?td=keepreading

On Thu, Aug 4, 2022 at 6:52 PM glen  wrote:

> Post-quantum crypto cracked in an hour with one core of an ancient Xeon
>
> https://www.theregister.com/2022/08/03/nist_quantum_resistant_crypto_cracked/
>
>  From SMMRY:
> https://smmry.com/https://www.theregister.com/2022/08/03/nist_quantum_resistant_crypto_cracked/#_LENGTH=7
> > Post-quantum crypto cracked in an hour with one Xeon core The Register
> > One of the four encryption algorithms the US National Institute of
> Standards and Technology recommended as likely to resist decryption by
> quantum computers has has holes kicked in it by researchers using a single
> core of an Intel Xeon CPU, released in 2013.
> >
> > Within SIKE lies a public key encryption algorithm and a key
> encapsulated mechanism, each instantiated with four parameter sets:
> SIKEp434, SIKEp503, SIKEp610 and SIKEp751.
> >
> > "Ran on a single core, the appended Magma code breaks the Microsoft SIKE
> challenges $IKEp182 and $IKEp217 in about 4 minutes and 6 minutes,
> respectively. A run on the SIKEp434 parameters, previously believed to meet
> NIST's quantum security level 1, took about 62 minutes, again on a single
> core," wrote Castryck and Decru, of Katholieke Universiteit Leuven in a a
> preliminary article [PDF] announcing their discovery.
> >
> > Quantum-resistant encryption research is a hot topic because it is felt
> that quantum computers are almost certain to become prevalent and
> sufficiently powerful to crack existing encryption algorithms.
> >
> > Alongside the vintage processor, Castryck and Decru used a key recovery
> attack on the Supersingular Isogeny Diffie-Hellman key exchange protocol
> that was based on Ernest Kani's "Glue-and-split" theorem.
> >
> > "The attack exploits the fact that SIDH has auxiliary points and that
> the degree of the secret isogeny is known. The auxiliary points in SIDH
> have always been an annoyance and a potential weakness, and they have been
> exploited for fault attacks, the GPST adaptive attack, torsion point
> attacks, etc." argued University of Auckland mathematician Stephen
> Galbraith in his cryptography blog.
> >
> > Security researcher Kenneth White tweeted his awe and noted "In 10-20
> yrs we *might* have practical quantum computers, so let's roll out
> replacement PQ crypto now. Which could be trivially broken today, on a
> laptop."
>
>
> --
> ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ
>
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Re: [FRIAM] self-care

[Sarbajit Roy]

Hi Glen and Nick

Seen from New Delhi (India), a distance of 8,000 miles, the US of A appears
as a monolithic ("One nation under a Christian God") capitalist nation
regardless of which of your 2 interchangeable parties are in power in
Washington. For us Trump is the same as Biden, Farid Zakaria is no
different from Tucker Carlson.

In so far as the Guttmacher dispute is concerned, organisations I am
connected to have an ongoing dispute with Wikipedia since 2013, and they
noticed the contributions of this Wikipedia account [
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/LPSingh] were strangely
suspicious and were promoting drug based self induced "home" abortions in
India in violation of India's law. Because the account claims to be medical
student in a top medical government college of India and also a specialist
in abortions, one of our team members tried to alert the Wikipedia
community [
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:MalluMalleus=806327897]
but instead ended up getting blocked at Wikipedia.

We then confirmed under Freedom of Information that no such student ever
existed at the KEM College and our complaints to the Federal Health
Ministry of India also unearthed the Guttmacher Foundation connections
(sock-puppetry) and our Govt took some positive actions (albeit only
temporarily till their top officers were suitably bribed) against the
foundation's activities in India.

We can say many things about Guttmacher, but this other article says quite
a bit of it already [
https://prismreports.org/2021/12/06/guttmacher-institute-staff-say-a-toxic-work-culture-has-the-reproductive-rights-research-giant-in-a-death-spiral/
]

Sarbajit

On Wed, Jul 13, 2022 at 12:23 AM glen  wrote:

> What's a bit bizarre about Sarbajit's accusation of hypocrisy is the
> overwhelming diversity of US Government components. It would make sense to
> accuse a single agency, say, the FDA of something like hypocrisy. But even
> there, we have different regimes ran by different people and there's a
> turnover of individuals within the affiliated organizations.
>
> I suppose this is the heart of the "stare decisis" arguments against
> willy-nilly overturning "precedent" and cross administration changes like
> Trump rejecting the nuclear deal with Iran. It reminds me of the Citizens
> United ruling and the false equivalence between national debt/deficit and
> household debt.
>
> Can a materially open thing like a (somewhat) representative government be
> *hypocritical*? What is hypocrisy, really?
>
>
> On 7/3/22 18:23, thompnicks...@gmail.com wrote:
> > Sarbajit,
> >
> > Could you post materials on the Guttmacher dispute and the science
> behind it?
> >
> > I am guessing that this is all new to us.
> >
> > As to hypocrisy, the term is only appropriate to a unified system,
> usually a person.  But perhaps the metaphor works the other way around.
> Perhaps people are just badly integrated systems, hence sin in all its
> form, deception, hypocrisy, loving thy neighbor too well, and all of that!
> So instead of saying that governments are sort of like people, we might say
> that people are sort of like governments.
> >
> > N
> >
> > Nick Thompson
> >
> > thompnicks...@gmail.com <mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com>
> >
> > https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ <
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/>
> >
> > *From:* Friam  *On Behalf Of *Sarbajit Roy
> > *Sent:* Saturday, July 2, 2022 2:57 AM
> > *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
> friam@redfish.com>
> > *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] self-care
> >
> > The hypocrisy of the US govts is amazing.
> >
> > For decades they have been desperately promoting pill based self induced
> abortions as "safe" abortions in India and Latin America through their
> puppets like the Guttmacher Institiute and by using misrepresentations and
> outright lies.
> >
> > These pills are highly toxic / carcinogenic and Guttmacher was caught
> red handed by us for using fake accounts on Wikipedia to shape the "self
> induced abortion" article to depict it as safe and as an at-home remedy. We
> got Guttmacher delisted in India for about a year, but they made their way
> back through the USAID RMNCHA programs used to bribe foreign government
> servants to shape policy
> >
> > Sarbajit
> >
> > On Thu, Jun 30, 2022 at 8:52 PM glen  geprope...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> >
> > In the aftermath of the activist Justices overturning RvW, this
> popped up in my feed:
> >
> > How to Give Yourself an Abortion
> > https://jewishcurrents.org/how-to-give-yourself-an-abortion <
> h

Re: [FRIAM] self-care

[Sarbajit Roy]

The hypocrisy of the US govts is amazing.

For decades they have been desperately promoting pill based self induced
abortions as "safe" abortions in India and Latin America through their
puppets like the Guttmacher Institiute and by using misrepresentations and
outright lies.

These pills are highly toxic / carcinogenic and Guttmacher was caught red
handed by us for using fake accounts on Wikipedia to shape the "self
induced abortion" article to depict it as safe and as an at-home remedy. We
got Guttmacher delisted in India for about a year, but they made their way
back through the USAID RMNCHA programs used to bribe foreign government
servants to shape policy

Sarbajit

On Thu, Jun 30, 2022 at 8:52 PM glen  wrote:

> In the aftermath of the activist Justices overturning RvW, this popped up
> in my feed:
>
> How to Give Yourself an Abortion
> https://jewishcurrents.org/how-to-give-yourself-an-abortion
>
> I remain torn on the issue of self-care. And lots of energy was added to
> my oscillators with the whole "horse dewormer" thing for COVID-19. (Yes,
> I'm poking fun both at the people who bought veterinary ivermectin and the
> people who used the disgusting sneer "horse dewormer".) To boot, this post
> came up this morning about a homeopathic packet sent home with the patient
> after surgery:
> https://centerforinquiry.salsalabs.org/2022cfimidyearemailversion11.
> (Placebo is a thing, despite Blumner's write-off.)
>
> Nick is fond of asking people whether they take multivitamins or not. And
> while it's true most experts claim that *healthy* people just pee them out.
> *Who* amongst us actually qualifies as "healthy"? What does "health" even
> mean? That's not an idle or rhetorical question. Am I "healthy", despite
> the excruciating chronic pain in my shoulders, neck, and lower back?
> Despite my sporadic debilitating migraines? Despite my now abated
> follicular lymphoma? Sure, I *seem* healthy because I can do pull-ups,
> shovel dirt, drink 5 pints without a hangover, and maintain a full-time job
> with a bit of time for hobbies. But what you see from the outside doesn't
> reflect what I feel on the inside, which is like a sick puppy where the
> slightest bad event would topple me into the "disabled" category. "Healthy"
> is at best a misinformation concept, at worst a malinformation concept:
> https://www.cisa.gov/sites/default/files/publications/mdm-incident-response-guide_508.pdf
>
> Sneer all you want at the new-age descendant reading self-help books,
> cutting out magazine ads for their "vision board", or self-administering
> veterinary de-fetus pills, but there's something important, here. Fad
> diets, bottled water, alcoholism or pregnancy as an indicator for moral
> failure, etc. all point at that thing, whatever that thing is.
>
> In that context, self-administered abortion is legit.
>
> --
> ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ
>
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Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: We just launched Russian Asset Tracker, most complete database to date

[Sarbajit Roy]

For anyone who believes that Russians are brainwashed by Putin propaganda /
unaware of the reality of their national situation post Ukraine, or unable
to publish inside Russia

https://www.rt.com/russia/552333-russia-ukraine-conflict-benefits/

NB: This Rusian author's assessment is very similar to our own .. ie. if
you read between the lines.

On Tue, Mar 22, 2022 at 2:36 AM glen  wrote:

> Bullshit, Gil. It may be common to shitpost on whatever fora you normally
> attend. But please don't do it, here. ... Or, fine. Do it, here. But know
> what you're doing.
>
>
>

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Re: [FRIAM] and don’t miss this

[Sarbajit Roy]

FYI, their low cost UAVs and drones use Raspberrry Pi processors on their
own PCBs.

On Thu, Mar 17, 2022 at 1:59 AM Marcus Daniels  wrote:

> Advanced tracking technology!  Lol, in Russia that means it has an 80386?
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Friam  On Behalf Of glen
> Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2022 1:17 PM
> To: friam@redfish.com
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] and don’t miss this
>
> Ha! Could be fake, but:
>
> Ukrainian S-300s Gain First Ever Kills: Shoot Down Two NATO Aircraft
> Accidentally Over Romania - Reports
> https://militarywatchmagazine.com/article/ukrainian-s-300s-gain-first-ever-confirmed-kill-shoot-down-two-nato-aircraft-accidentally-over-romania
>
> It's one thing to smuggle in weapons. It's another thing to have people
> there who know how to operate those weapons.
>
> On 3/16/22 12:16, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> > Glen writes:
> >
> > < NATO rejects the no-fly zone. But my guess is it's not because of
> > some Utilitarian sense of suffering. It's because war is only
> > profitable to a small slice of the industrial world. In some ways,
> > that's a good thing, I guess. It signals that we've moved away from
> > bombs and fire, toward money and "cyber"/info. To Alphabet, Meta, and
> > even Musk Enterprises, people are not only the means of production,
> > but also the product. It's stupid to destroy your merchandise. It's
> > smarter to keep them enslaved. It's akin to our move from broad
> > spectrum [pest|herb]icides toward *targeted* "management". Bombs and
> > fire are too coarse to preserve the status quo. Oligarchs like Musk
> > need the analog for GMOs and viruses ... hearts and minds of the
> > Metaverse denizens. >
> >
> > If Russia wants to make claims to administer Ukrainian territory, then
> NATO can certainly do the same, especially since they are being begged to
> do so.A no-fly zone keeps being treated as a term of art.
> > It could just be a claim by NATO over some subset of the territory.
>  Responses to this proposal -- one I heard this morning from Richard Haas
> -- are dismissive without explanation.  He claimed that Russia's radar
> systems would have to be taken out.I don't see why that would be
> necessary.It would take the courage to put pilots and vehicles at
> risk:  Invite Russia to shoot at NATO aircraft.   Then as soon as the
> Russians attack a NATO security escort or shoot down a plane, punishment
> can be proportional.   After all, war is politics by other means --
> appealing the folks in Russia and in Putin's orbit that the military
> operation has become too dangerous.   Meanwhile, once there is a territory
> that is relatively safe, then NATO can move more freely to relocate
> refugees and to deploy defensive and offensive weapons systems.  In a
> grinding war, it could make sense to start training Ukrainians on US
> weapons systems.
> >
> > As an extreme example to show the absurdity of these norms, the
> smuggling-in of weapons could include nuclear warheads.   So, in
> comparison, some planes flying around are not nearly as escalatory.
> >
> > And the media coverage of the military side of this isn't very
> penetrating.  This morning McFaul said that S-300s were now available to
> the Ukrainians.   Ok, that's somewhat significant.  No one is asking about
> surface-to-surface missiles.  Perhaps the administration and the Pentagon
> (and Zelensky's government) are just keeping the messaging light with the
> no-fly zone talk so that they have cover to deploy more diverse weapons?
>  I suspect it is not so Machiavellian, and the plea for a no-fly zone is
> simply desperation.
>
>
>
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Re: [FRIAM] Enamine

[Sarbajit Roy]

https://media.defense.gov/2020/Nov/23/2002540368/-1/-1/1/UNBEHAUEN.PDF

On Sat, Mar 12, 2022 at 10:26 PM Marcus Daniels 
wrote:

> I think the Russian military recognized the growing potential to 1) thwart
> isolated uses of tactical nukes and 2) with no INF, recognized the
> potential of versatile, even transportable, surface-to-surface missiles on
> the Russian border.   Putin was running out of time for his tour of
> Ukraine.
>
> I think I shall buy some LM stock.  It seems like a growth area.
>
> On Mar 12, 2022, at 8:44 AM, Sarbajit Roy  wrote:
>
> 
> If anything, these linked articles highlight the stranglehold US armament
> suppliers like Lockheed and Raytheon have over the US Government's
> international policies that they could get unilaterally abrogated the ABM
> treaty which held for 30 years.
>
> On Sat, Mar 12, 2022 at 11:28 AM Marcus Daniels 
> wrote:
>
>> EricS wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> < But extending NATO to frontier countries that you cannot practically
>> defend without suicidal commitments, and whose offensive strategic value is
>> not comparable to the defensive strategic loss of keeping your promise,
>> seems like a template imprinted on a broad range of treaties by the MAD
>> application.>
>>
>>
>>
>> There are some defensive tools in Poland and Romania.  I think that’s
>> part of what has been freaking Putin out.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/16/world/europe/poland-missile-base-russia-ukraine.html
>>
>>
>> https://news.usni.org/2016/05/12/aegis-ashore-site-in-romania-declared-operational
>>
>>
>> https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/29477/lets-talk-about-the-post-inf-treaty-u-s-test-of-a-ground-launched-tomahawk-missile
>>
>>
>>
>> One could certainly see an Aegis Ashore system ending up in Ukraine, and
>> given recent events, putting Tomahawks in MK41 launchers at those sites.
>>
>> Note the trailer configuration in the last article.   At least as useful
>> as some MiGs.
>>
>>
>>
>> Putin is like Trump and accuses the thing he is guilty.   So it seems
>> appropriate to make his fear a reality.
>>
>>
>>
>> Marcus
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Friam  *On Behalf Of *David Eric Smith
>> *Sent:* Friday, March 11, 2022 2:50 AM
>> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
>> friam@redfish.com>
>> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Enamine
>>
>>
>>
>> What you have below is well-articulated, Roger; I understand.
>>
>>
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Re: [FRIAM] Enamine

[Sarbajit Roy]

If anything, these linked articles highlight the stranglehold US armament
suppliers like Lockheed and Raytheon have over the US Government's
international policies that they could get unilaterally abrogated the ABM
treaty which held for 30 years.

On Sat, Mar 12, 2022 at 11:28 AM Marcus Daniels 
wrote:

> EricS wrote:
>
>
>
> < But extending NATO to frontier countries that you cannot practically
> defend without suicidal commitments, and whose offensive strategic value is
> not comparable to the defensive strategic loss of keeping your promise,
> seems like a template imprinted on a broad range of treaties by the MAD
> application.>
>
>
>
> There are some defensive tools in Poland and Romania.  I think that’s part
> of what has been freaking Putin out.
>
>
>
>
> https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/16/world/europe/poland-missile-base-russia-ukraine.html
>
>
> https://news.usni.org/2016/05/12/aegis-ashore-site-in-romania-declared-operational
>
>
> https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/29477/lets-talk-about-the-post-inf-treaty-u-s-test-of-a-ground-launched-tomahawk-missile
>
>
>
> One could certainly see an Aegis Ashore system ending up in Ukraine, and
> given recent events, putting Tomahawks in MK41 launchers at those sites.
>
> Note the trailer configuration in the last article.   At least as useful
> as some MiGs.
>
>
>
> Putin is like Trump and accuses the thing he is guilty.   So it seems
> appropriate to make his fear a reality.
>
>
>
> Marcus
>
>
>
> *From:* Friam  *On Behalf Of *David Eric Smith
> *Sent:* Friday, March 11, 2022 2:50 AM
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
> friam@redfish.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Enamine
>
>
>
> What you have below is well-articulated, Roger; I understand.
>
>

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Re: [FRIAM] Enamine

[Sarbajit Roy]

Jochen

Actually this CNN video supports my observations that ordinary Ukrainians
simply can't understand the "geo-political" reasons why Russia is attacking
them. The sooner this stops the better.

All these "barbaric" assaults on civilians are part and parcel of Russian
methods and they write it off to collateral damage. In any case, Russian
missiles /rockets are not designed for precision, but to make it up in
sheer numbers.

PS: I personally have considerable knowledge of Soviet munition platforms
and their tactics, which I can't really disclose over a public forum, but
there is no way I hold a brief for the Russians or swallow their propaganda.

On Thu, Mar 10, 2022 at 12:35 AM Jochen Fromm  wrote:

> Look at this CNN video. It shows an Ukrainian who has lost 5 family
> members because his home was struck by Russian missiles. The terror on his
> face is real. An innocent civilian who has lost everything: his family and
> his home. If this is not a war, then what is? It is a war of Putin against
> Ukraine because he feels threatened by the democracy there. He wants to
> submit the neighboring country to his authoritarian rule where his
> opponents are poisoned, shot or imprisoned.
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MU3wJc9WmRI
>
> -J.
>
>
>  Original message 
> From: Sarbajit Roy 
> Date: 3/9/22 19:31 (GMT+01:00)
> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
>
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Enamine
>
> Marcus if I can clarify some of this.
>
> The "West Ukrainian" people feel BETRAYED by Russia's attack on their
> country, As fraternal Slavs they did not expect it considering their past
> history with Russia.
>
> Putin is making it clear that he is not targeting the Ukrainian people,
> per se, but the ZELENKSY regime personally. The "Z" stands for Zelenksy
> regime  which has incorporated "neo-Nazi" armed irregular divisions which
> fought the East Ukranians into the regular Ukranian army.
>
> The Russian battle against these "Nazis" will be fought in Mariuopl and
> perhaps Odessa, and it will be extremely brutal and uncivilised.
> Putin has also sent in mainly conscripts (although he denies it) elsewhere
> as (a) it bloodies them cheaply and b) they are less brutal than his
> hardened troops and foreign mercenaries who will be used in urban warfare
> assaults against the southern port cities.
>
> Lastly as a reminder, Putin was prepared for deaths of 150 of his own
> civilians to take out 40 hardcore Chechen rebels in the Oct 2002 opera
> house hostage crisis. Something unacceptable in the West.
>
> Sarbajit
>
>
>>
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Re: [FRIAM] Enamine

[Sarbajit Roy]

THis may help you re: the Nazi issue
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/3/1/who-are-the-azov-regiment

On Thu, Mar 10, 2022 at 12:22 AM Jochen Fromm  wrote:

> Zelensky is Jewish. There are no Nazis in Ukraine. Russia behaves like
> Nazi Germany because it invades - unprovoked - an innocent democratic
> country. I am afraid you are repeating Russian state propaganda.
>
> The headline at theguardian.com is right now: "children buried in rubble
> after Russian airstrike on Mariupol hospital". Please tell me what kind of
> special military operation this is? Is it the one Tolstoy describes in
> "Special military operation and peace" ?
>
> -J.
>
>
>  Original message 
> From: Sarbajit Roy 
> Date: 3/9/22 19:31 (GMT+01:00)
> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
>
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Enamine
>
> Marcus if I can clarify some of this.
>
> The "West Ukrainian" people feel BETRAYED by Russia's attack on their
> country, As fraternal Slavs they did not expect it considering their past
> history with Russia.
>
> Putin is making it clear that he is not targeting the Ukrainian people,
> per se, but the ZELENKSY regime personally. The "Z" stands for Zelenksy
> regime  which has incorporated "neo-Nazi" armed irregular divisions which
> fought the East Ukranians into the regular Ukranian army.
>
> The Russian battle against these "Nazis" will be fought in Mariuopl and
> perhaps Odessa, and it will be extremely brutal and uncivilised.
> Putin has also sent in mainly conscripts (although he denies it) elsewhere
> as (a) it bloodies them cheaply and b) they are less brutal than his
> hardened troops and foreign mercenaries who will be used in urban warfare
> assaults against the southern port cities.
>
> Lastly as a reminder, Putin was prepared for deaths of 150 of his own
> civilians to take out 40 hardcore Chechen rebels in the Oct 2002 opera
> house hostage crisis. Something unacceptable in the West.
>
> Sarbajit
>
>
>>
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Re: [FRIAM] Enamine

[Sarbajit Roy]

Marcus if I can clarify some of this.

The "West Ukrainian" people feel BETRAYED by Russia's attack on their
country, As fraternal Slavs they did not expect it considering their past
history with Russia.

Putin is making it clear that he is not targeting the Ukrainian people, per
se, but the ZELENKSY regime personally. The "Z" stands for Zelenksy regime
which has incorporated "neo-Nazi" armed irregular divisions which fought
the East Ukranians into the regular Ukranian army.

The Russian battle against these "Nazis" will be fought in Mariuopl and
perhaps Odessa, and it will be extremely brutal and uncivilised.
Putin has also sent in mainly conscripts (although he denies it) elsewhere
as (a) it bloodies them cheaply and b) they are less brutal than his
hardened troops and foreign mercenaries who will be used in urban warfare
assaults against the southern port cities.

Lastly as a reminder, Putin was prepared for deaths of 150 of his own
civilians to take out 40 hardcore Chechen rebels in the Oct 2002 opera
house hostage crisis. Something unacceptable in the West.

Sarbajit


>
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Re: [FRIAM] Enamine

[Sarbajit Roy]

Yes Jochen.

India is Russia;'s largest buyers of arms, followed closely by China,
India also buys a lot of spares for Soviet equipment from the former Warsaw
pact countries, many of whom are now in NATO.

After the Soviet breakup, Russia has become unreliable in supplying spares,
and the quality of spares has also gone down, with former Soviet states
giving much better quality spares to us much cheaper. Russia was also
involved in too many corrupt deals to sell their arms here, which has
backfired on them and lowered their reputation as a trusted arms supplier
to us.



On Wed, Mar 9, 2022 at 11:11 PM Jochen Fromm  wrote:

> Sarbajit, what is the relationship of India and Russia? Is it true that
> Russia is India's biggest arms supplier?
> https://time.com/6154734/india-ukraine/
>
> -J.
>
>
>  Original message --------
> From: Sarbajit Roy 
> Date: 3/9/22 18:03 (GMT+01:00)
> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
>
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Enamine
>
> What is going to happen in Ukraine is that Russia is going to teach
> Ukraine a lesson for flirting with the EU, NATO and western liberalism and
> signing that NATO document in November 2021.
>
> Putin is going to annex the Eastern and Southern parts of Ukraine by
> setting them up as autonomous regions/states within Ukraines' boundaries as
> Russian protectorates. He is then going to make Kyiv sue for peace under
> his terms with Russia taking over some aspects of Ukraine's foreign affairs
> and defence/security (think back to the former East Germany). Putin has no
> intention of taking over Ukraine or ruling it.
>
> Russian's are very direct communicators (like Klingons), Putin, is doing
> exactly what he said he would do before the invasion started. This is a
> special military operation, not an invasion. The sooner Ukraine folds up
> the better for everyone, and especially the Ukranians, since it's the US
> and UK who are stoking the fires for their own selfish (war mongering
> defence industry) interests.  And interestingly the Muslim world is lining
> up behind the Russia-China axis as nobody really trusts the US and UK
> anymore over there.
>
> On Wed, Mar 9, 2022 at 9:57 PM Marcus Daniels 
> wrote:
>
>> EricS writes:
>>
>>
>>
>> < It seems to me that Mearsheimer’s argument does do an induction for
>> what to do next, and it is a 19th-century induction, in which a small
>> number of actors simply dictate what the world will do, and there should be
>> some kind of US retreat [..] >
>>
>>
>>
>> There’s another option, possibly within reach, to create the conditions
>> to have the current Russian government implode and give Russia the
>> opportunity to join NATO.  It’s not like it hasn’t happened before.
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Friam  *On Behalf Of *David Eric Smith
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, March 9, 2022 3:58 AM
>> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
>> friam@redfish.com>
>> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Enamine
>>
>>
>>
>> It’s a good list of wrongdoings, Roger, and no argument can be sound that
>> doesn’t keep it present and active.  Facts are facts.
>>
>>
>>
>> I wasn’t saying I can’t follow Mearsheimer’s frame or its reasoning.  I
>> was saying that the adequacy of working within the frame seems questionable
>> and bothers me. To put in a metaphor where I am sure it would be better if
>> I stuck to the particulars, it seems like a Baconian error to me: to
>> suppose that (a subset of) the facts are self-interpreting.
>>
>>
>>
>> You mention:
>>
>> Mearshimer's point of view is not pretty, and fairness is not part of its
>> calculus, but it's the way of the world that we, the United States of
>> America, have made.  And when we screw up in our enthusiasm for truth,
>> justice, and the amurkan way, we should not blame others for the
>> consequences.
>>
>>
>>
>> I agree, and I also understand that you didn’t say my summary included
>> either the word or the theme of blaming anybody (while acknowledging that
>> both the political and media rhetoric is full of that).  But I want to
>> reiterate that apportioning blame and with it responsibility is the opening
>> part of a discussion, but not obviously enough to say what to do next.  It
>> seems to me that Mearsheimer’s argument does do an induction for what to do
>> next, and it is a 19th-century induction, in which a small number of actors
>> simply dictate what the world will do, and there should be some kind of US
>> retreat, after which we can conclude (?) that the Russian government will
>> pull bac

Re: [FRIAM] Enamine

[Sarbajit Roy]

Not really,
Russia is low down on the list of world economies and the Russian people
are quite used to deprivation if they see a positive outcome soon.
Putin paints it as an "EXISTENTIAL" threat for Mother Russia which had to
be done, no matter what.

On Wed, Mar 9, 2022 at 10:41 PM Marcus Daniels  wrote:

> That sounds plausible.   What I don’t see is a release of sanctions before
> a lot of damage is done to the Russian economy.   North America doesn’t
> really need the oil, although I could see Germany and others folding when
> winter comes again.   As long as the sanctions hold up, Putin is in for a
> world of hurt.
>
>
>
> *From:* Friam  *On Behalf Of *Sarbajit Roy
> *Sent:* Wednesday, March 9, 2022 9:02 AM
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
> friam@redfish.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Enamine
>
>
>
> What is going to happen in Ukraine is that Russia is going to teach
> Ukraine a lesson for flirting with the EU, NATO and western liberalism and
> signing that NATO document in November 2021.
>
> Putin is going to annex the Eastern and Southern parts of Ukraine by
> setting them up as autonomous regions/states within Ukraines' boundaries as
> Russian protectorates. He is then going to make Kyiv sue for peace under
> his terms with Russia taking over some aspects of Ukraine's foreign affairs
> and defence/security (think back to the former East Germany). Putin has no
> intention of taking over Ukraine or ruling it.
>
> Russian's are very direct communicators (like Klingons), Putin, is doing
> exactly what he said he would do before the invasion started. This is a
> special military operation, not an invasion. The sooner Ukraine folds up
> the better for everyone, and especially the Ukranians, since it's the US
> and UK who are stoking the fires for their own selfish (war mongering
> defence industry) interests.  And interestingly the Muslim world is lining
> up behind the Russia-China axis as nobody really trusts the US and UK
> anymore over there.
>
>
>
> On Wed, Mar 9, 2022 at 9:57 PM Marcus Daniels 
> wrote:
>
> EricS writes:
>
>
>
> < It seems to me that Mearsheimer’s argument does do an induction for what
> to do next, and it is a 19th-century induction, in which a small number of
> actors simply dictate what the world will do, and there should be some kind
> of US retreat [..] >
>
>
>
> There’s another option, possibly within reach, to create the conditions to
> have the current Russian government implode and give Russia the opportunity
> to join NATO.  It’s not like it hasn’t happened before.
>
>
>
> *From:* Friam  *On Behalf Of *David Eric Smith
> *Sent:* Wednesday, March 9, 2022 3:58 AM
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
> friam@redfish.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Enamine
>
>
>
> It’s a good list of wrongdoings, Roger, and no argument can be sound that
> doesn’t keep it present and active.  Facts are facts.
>
>
>
> I wasn’t saying I can’t follow Mearsheimer’s frame or its reasoning.  I
> was saying that the adequacy of working within the frame seems questionable
> and bothers me. To put in a metaphor where I am sure it would be better if
> I stuck to the particulars, it seems like a Baconian error to me: to
> suppose that (a subset of) the facts are self-interpreting.
>
>
>
> You mention:
>
> Mearshimer's point of view is not pretty, and fairness is not part of its
> calculus, but it's the way of the world that we, the United States of
> America, have made.  And when we screw up in our enthusiasm for truth,
> justice, and the amurkan way, we should not blame others for the
> consequences.
>
>
>
> I agree, and I also understand that you didn’t say my summary included
> either the word or the theme of blaming anybody (while acknowledging that
> both the political and media rhetoric is full of that).  But I want to
> reiterate that apportioning blame and with it responsibility is the opening
> part of a discussion, but not obviously enough to say what to do next.  It
> seems to me that Mearsheimer’s argument does do an induction for what to do
> next, and it is a 19th-century induction, in which a small number of actors
> simply dictate what the world will do, and there should be some kind of US
> retreat, after which we can conclude (?) that the Russian government will
> pull back and return directly to what they were prioritizing in 2012
> (broader-based prosperity, certain conditional integrations, etc., while
> still operating mainly as a partly-kleptocratic petro-state, an economic
> model that is not universal and that does bring in other biases in what
> kind of governance and social structure are most ro

Re: [FRIAM] Enamine

[Sarbajit Roy]

What is going to happen in Ukraine is that Russia is going to teach Ukraine
a lesson for flirting with the EU, NATO and western liberalism and signing
that NATO document in November 2021.

Putin is going to annex the Eastern and Southern parts of Ukraine by
setting them up as autonomous regions/states within Ukraines' boundaries as
Russian protectorates. He is then going to make Kyiv sue for peace under
his terms with Russia taking over some aspects of Ukraine's foreign affairs
and defence/security (think back to the former East Germany). Putin has no
intention of taking over Ukraine or ruling it.

Russian's are very direct communicators (like Klingons), Putin, is doing
exactly what he said he would do before the invasion started. This is a
special military operation, not an invasion. The sooner Ukraine folds up
the better for everyone, and especially the Ukranians, since it's the US
and UK who are stoking the fires for their own selfish (war mongering
defence industry) interests.  And interestingly the Muslim world is lining
up behind the Russia-China axis as nobody really trusts the US and UK
anymore over there.

On Wed, Mar 9, 2022 at 9:57 PM Marcus Daniels  wrote:

> EricS writes:
>
>
>
> < It seems to me that Mearsheimer’s argument does do an induction for what
> to do next, and it is a 19th-century induction, in which a small number of
> actors simply dictate what the world will do, and there should be some kind
> of US retreat [..] >
>
>
>
> There’s another option, possibly within reach, to create the conditions to
> have the current Russian government implode and give Russia the opportunity
> to join NATO.  It’s not like it hasn’t happened before.
>
>
>
> *From:* Friam  *On Behalf Of *David Eric Smith
> *Sent:* Wednesday, March 9, 2022 3:58 AM
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
> friam@redfish.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Enamine
>
>
>
> It’s a good list of wrongdoings, Roger, and no argument can be sound that
> doesn’t keep it present and active.  Facts are facts.
>
>
>
> I wasn’t saying I can’t follow Mearsheimer’s frame or its reasoning.  I
> was saying that the adequacy of working within the frame seems questionable
> and bothers me. To put in a metaphor where I am sure it would be better if
> I stuck to the particulars, it seems like a Baconian error to me: to
> suppose that (a subset of) the facts are self-interpreting.
>
>
>
> You mention:
>
> Mearshimer's point of view is not pretty, and fairness is not part of its
> calculus, but it's the way of the world that we, the United States of
> America, have made.  And when we screw up in our enthusiasm for truth,
> justice, and the amurkan way, we should not blame others for the
> consequences.
>
>
>
> I agree, and I also understand that you didn’t say my summary included
> either the word or the theme of blaming anybody (while acknowledging that
> both the political and media rhetoric is full of that).  But I want to
> reiterate that apportioning blame and with it responsibility is the opening
> part of a discussion, but not obviously enough to say what to do next.  It
> seems to me that Mearsheimer’s argument does do an induction for what to do
> next, and it is a 19th-century induction, in which a small number of actors
> simply dictate what the world will do, and there should be some kind of US
> retreat, after which we can conclude (?) that the Russian government will
> pull back and return directly to what they were prioritizing in 2012
> (broader-based prosperity, certain conditional integrations, etc., while
> still operating mainly as a partly-kleptocratic petro-state, an economic
> model that is not universal and that does bring in other biases in what
> kind of governance and social structure are most robust).  I guess also
> that Latvia, Lithuania, and Estonia will recognize that they were duped and
> quickly withdraw from NATO to become more Finland-like buffer states, and
> that an even easier decision of that kind can be reached with respect to
> Poland and Hungary, since they were backsliders anyway.  (I am being
> absurdist here because, even if one thought Mearsheimer’s analysis of the
> optimal decisions in the past are different from those taken, I don’t see
> what paths to comparable outcomes are available now.)
>
>
>
> Here’s one take, on whether there are other dimensions outside
> Mearsheimer’s frame that bear on its adequacy.  A mock-dialogue:
>
>
>
> QUESTION: Does the Russian (either) annexation or destruction of Ukraine
> at this time move the world toward or away from a rules-based system of
> international constraint?  How does an analytic answer to that serve as a
> criterion for valuing the event and deciding what to do in response to it?
>
> REJOINDER: Does not exist as a question because the U.S. has taken many
> actions that, by not being constrained, undermined the role of constraint,
> whether they were taken by being misguided or by being cynically
> self-interested.
>
>
>
> 

Re: [FRIAM] what's the view from Europe?

[Sarbajit Roy]

The point is that the US should strictly keep its nose within its own
boundaries and not export its ideologies globally, eg. as in the Reagan
doctrine.

For instance, if the India Govt wants to directly buy defensive S-400
missiles from Russia in preference to US systems, what gives the USA the
right to sanction either the Indian Govt or Indian companies who are
totally unconnected to the deal ?

How dare US Senators like Ted Cruz and Jeanne Shaheen publicly insult
India's neutral votes on the Ukraine issue in the UN by implying India does
not support democracy ?  What business is it of theirs ?

Or for that matter, why does an Assistant Secretary of State Donald Lu
depict India as a running dog of US Interests by publicly stating that
every US armament sold to India is one less for the US to deploy itself
against China. Doesn't he know that India is a founding member of BRICS
along with China and Russia ?

https://www.foreign.senate.gov/hearings/us-policy-towards-india030222


On Tue, Mar 8, 2022 at 4:34 AM Marcus Daniels  wrote:

> There are articles like this one
>
>
>
>
> https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/mar/02/civilised-european-look-like-us-racist-coverage-ukraine
>
>
>
> One might deduce from this that Anglo-Saxon imperialist media doesn’t
> really care about countries having non-Anglo-Saxon civilian populations
> destroyed by weapons of mass destruction.   I would say there has been a
> cloud of rage over 9/11 that only recently started to clear.   Anything in
> that cloud, like the entire middle east, could be considered hell.   Or
> like Las Vegas, what happens in Mosul stays in Mosul.  There were some
> reporters that would cover it, but overall, there were few in the U.S. that
> really cared what happened.  (And really, who **ever** thinks about
> Russia?  Who is this nut-job?)  There was violence that was “needed” (most
> recently with ISIS) and we were by in large readily willing to not look at
> it.   Obama remarked on it with remarkable detachment.   The Russians took
> advantage of this.  Yes, it is ugly that there is this contrast, but that
> doesn’t mean they should get away with it this time.   There were voices
> calling for intervention at the time.
>
>
>
> One might also say that morphing of Anglo-Saxon imperialism toward a
> principled liberal democracy is fake and insincere.  That seems to be
> Putin’s position.   But assuming this is all true, and all there is
> asserting power, then there is nothing left to talk about.   Send out the
> aircraft carriers.
>
>
>
> *From:* Friam  *On Behalf Of *Sarbajit Roy
> *Sent:* Monday, March 7, 2022 2:08 PM
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
> friam@redfish.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] what's the view from Europe?
>
>
>
> Both authors of the article are affiliated to the notoriously
> imperialistic Chatham House think tank.
>
>
>
> On Mon, Mar 7, 2022 at 11:19 PM glen  wrote:
>
> Well, for the wartime profiteers amongst us:
>
>
> https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/mar/07/tech-community-rallied-ukraine-cyber-defence-eu-nato
>
> "Cyber" was already everywhere, nauseously so. But now it'll be even worse.
>
> On 3/7/22 09:45, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> >
> > It’s great for the military industrial complex in the U.S. and in
> Europe.   Close to home in New Mexico:   B61 revision 12s, yes, those will
> be in demand.
>
> --
> glen
> When elephants fight, it is the grass that suffers.
>
>
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Re: [FRIAM] what's the view from Europe?

[Sarbajit Roy]

Both authors of the article are affiliated to the notoriously imperialistic
Chatham House think tank.

On Mon, Mar 7, 2022 at 11:19 PM glen  wrote:

> Well, for the wartime profiteers amongst us:
>
>
> https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/mar/07/tech-community-rallied-ukraine-cyber-defence-eu-nato
>
> "Cyber" was already everywhere, nauseously so. But now it'll be even worse.
>
> On 3/7/22 09:45, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> >
> > It’s great for the military industrial complex in the U.S. and in
> Europe.   Close to home in New Mexico:   B61 revision 12s, yes, those will
> be in demand.
>
> --
> glen
> When elephants fight, it is the grass that suffers.
>
>
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Re: [FRIAM] what's the view from Europe?

[Sarbajit Roy]

He's updated himself here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ppD_bhWODDc

On Mon, Mar 7, 2022 at 9:18 PM Marcus Daniels  wrote:

> From Mearsheimer’s argument, Ukrainian nationalism can drain Russian
> resources just like it did in Afghanistan.
>
> On Mar 7, 2022, at 7:32 AM, Sarbajit Roy  wrote:
>
>
> Yes,
> Prof.John Mearsheimer is very insightful and balanced with a deep sense of
> history.
> His Great Delusion lecture is also entertaining
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZVIaXFN2lU
>
> In addition to the view from Europe, you may also be interested in the
> view from India https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TzgPJeYZaOU
>
> Sarbajit
>
> On Sun, Mar 6, 2022 at 4:45 PM David Eric Smith 
> wrote:
>
>> Let me post this link, without commentary:
>>
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrMiSQAGOS4
>>
>> I can listen to it in at least three quite different frames, and it
>> sounds starkly different in each from the others.  All three carry
>> information.
>>
>> Eric
>>
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Re: [FRIAM] what's the view from Europe?

[Sarbajit Roy]

Yes,
Prof.John Mearsheimer is very insightful and balanced with a deep sense of
history.
His Great Delusion lecture is also entertaining
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZVIaXFN2lU

In addition to the view from Europe, you may also be interested in the view
from India https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TzgPJeYZaOU

Sarbajit

On Sun, Mar 6, 2022 at 4:45 PM David Eric Smith  wrote:

> Let me post this link, without commentary:
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrMiSQAGOS4
>
> I can listen to it in at least three quite different frames, and it sounds
> starkly different in each from the others.  All three carry information.
>
> Eric
>
>
>
> On Mar 6, 2022, at 12:36 AM, Marcus Daniels  wrote:
>
> For now, convoys coming out of Poland or other countries can try to
> disguise arms as humanitarian relief.
>
> One could imagine that Javelins could be hidden in small trucks.   It gets
> harder to disguise a MiG-29.
>
>
>
> But there’s no plausible deniability here about Javelins and other weapons
> intended for Ukraine.   The stated intent of NATO and the US is to enable
> Ukrainian armed forces to kill Russian soldiers.   At some point, probably
> relatively soon, it won’t be possible to smuggle large volumes of advanced
> weapons into Ukraine.   Then what?Wait for Putin to knock on the door
> of a NATO country?   He’ll say, “but I have tactical nuclear weapons”, what
> are you going to do? [1]
>
>
>
> Another option is to declare that convoys to and from Ukraine will get
> NATO escorts.   Then it is on the Russians to escalate:  Don’t you dare
> shoot at us.
>
> I don’t see any way that Putin can be allowed to come out of this.   His
> military needs to be degraded.   It can happen now, or it can happen later.
>   If it happens later there are going to be a lot of dead Ukrainians.   At
> this point I wouldn’t be surprised if he wants it to be a radioactive DMZ.
>
>
>
> Marcus
>
>
>
> [1]
> https://www.russiamatters.org/analysis/escalate-deescalate-part-russias-nuclear-toolbox
> 
>
>
>
> *From:* Friam  *On Behalf Of *Steve Smith
> *Sent:* Saturday, March 5, 2022 8:09 PM
> *To:* friam@redfish.com
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] what's the view from Europe?
>
>
>
>
>
> On 3/4/22 8:29 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
>
> https://twitter.com/Kasparov63/status/1499440540290584583
>
> I started watching this guy (Beau of the Fifth Column) semi-regularly
> months ago even though his affect triggers a lot of my attempts to ignore
> my own redneck roots.   I don't think I've mentioned him before... I half
> expect Glen is already clued in to him.  It is hard to see/hear him without
> expecting to hear the Trump Train tooting in the background, but he's quite
> the opposite.  Scary relevant/clued in/clear IMO.
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sPzQ1DyGZHs
>
> This "episode" felt like a powerful smack-down of those
> (politicians/pundits?) who are rattling "no fly" sabers.   To summarize, my
> takeaway was "if you think you can establish a no-fly zone in Ukraine, it
> would be yonks better to keep your powder dry and do a first strike because
> a no-fly *will* be Putin's pretext, even though he'll likely find another
> anyway".
>
> In personal anecdote space, Mary's nephew  in Madison WI hosted a young
> woman from Ukraine as an exchange student a few years ago.   They did a
> GoFundme to raise the cash to do everything they could to get her out.  She
> was hunkered down 80 miles East of Kyiv  on a farm she was interning
> (organic farming) on... all the women and children evacuated  fairly early
> on but they didn't have room for all so she and another young woman stayed
> behind.In the last two days, she worked her way from there to Lviv (<50
> miles from Poland) and hopes to make it to the border where the current
> time just standing in line to be processed is order 20 hours (according to
> her) though Poland has no document requirements...   if you show up at the
> border and you are not a military age (16-60?) age male they take your name
> and try to help you figure out what to do next I guess.The nephew and
> wife who are expecting their second child any day now are trying to get her
> here to their rural homestead to live indefinitely.   Otherwise (imminent
> birth) her nephew would be in Poland to meet her.
>
> My Ukrainian colleagues are still incommunicado with me, but our mutual
> colleagues who have remained engaged (Matt and Janire of 4Pi Productions,
> some of you met/knew through SFx... English/Spanish) speak with the
> non-Russian of the duo (Yuri) every day or two.   They are hyper-focused
> capable 40-somethings and at least Yuri will be one of the guys figuring
> out how to pry the tracks off of tanks with prosumer drones or something.
>
> I 

Re: [FRIAM] war footing

[Sarbajit Roy]

She almost definitely doesn't represent "Russia"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jpB721W1l34=1122s

On Thu, Mar 3, 2022 at 4:56 AM glen  wrote:

> This video brings home, to me, the inherent conflict with "do what it
> takes to ...":
>
> I'm Russian I want the rest of the world to hear me out
> https://youtu.be/FUE40mkEYeo
>
> Even though I'm worried she's a plant, she makes the valid point that
> things like sanctions don't hurt the ultra wealthy.
>
>

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Re: [FRIAM] The unvaccinated

[Sarbajit Roy]

Yes, this excellent article was behind a paywall.

This paywall is easily bypassed by either
a) turning off Javascript in the browser (easily done by the ublock privacy
addon), or
b) clearing the cookies for nytimes.com.

Sarbajit

On Sun, Oct 17, 2021 at 12:03 AM Barry MacKichan <
barry.mackic...@mackichan.com> wrote:

>
> Zeynep Tufekci had a column in the NY Times that agrees with Glen’s (oops!
> I mean s‚uǝlƃ) position in the discussion yesterday. It makes it more
> understandable why many have resisted
> vaccinations. (I hope it is not behind a paywall.)
> https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/15/opinion/covid-vaccines-unvaccinated.html
>
> —Barry
>
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Re: [FRIAM] "All [persons] are created equal"

[Sarbajit Roy]

Nick,

I am not a metaphysicist to debate such things with you. Can just state
cold facts.

All persons would be created equally .. in a perfect world.
However, when the world they are born into is imbalanced, in actuality
their weightage depends on the circumstances of their birth and the larger
society(s) they are born into

Attempts, by poiticians. to change that imbalance invariably create a cure
worse worse than the disease .. killing sparrows in China or introducing
rabbts to Australia. For instance, the *reverse discrimination* presently
practised in India against Brahmins has been taken to extraordinary lengths
by "vote bank" politics

Brahmins students are not eligible (barred in law) to apply for 87% of
seats in engineering or medical colleges in India.
They must openly compete with the entire population of applicants for the
remaining 13% of seats
To get admission into a top engineering college, a Brahmin student must get
at least 72 out of 90 multiple choice questions correct in what is
acknowledged to be one of the world's toughest entrance exams, whereas a
reserved category student can get in even after getting all 90 questions
wrong.

So if I look at it dispassionately, the problem with gaining true equality
is politics and politicians. The misguided attemptsof the USA to promote /
inmpose "democracy" and "equality" in third world countries inevitably
results in the installation of dictatorships or puppets fronting for
miltary regimes as a reaction. Afghanistan is a good example of it.

Sarbajit

On Fri, Aug 27, 2021 at 1:34 AM  wrote:

> Sarbajit,
>
>
>
> If I understand the shape of the globe correctly, you are waking up pretty
> soon, and I would like to pick up the conversation about caste, if you
> don’t mind.
>
>
>
> I believe the proposition in the subject line.  Given the many ways that
> proposition can be understood as plainly false, I feel that my belief in it
> must be defended.
>
>
>
> In what sense equal?  Not in genes.  Not in uterine environment. .  Not in
> early nutrition and cognitive stimulation. Not in social capitol. Not in
> financial capitol.  Not in access to health care.  Not in exposure to
> future parasites.  Not in almost anything that I can think of.   So, why is
> the aphorism not just nonsense.
>
>
>
> I find, that if I examine my thinking in this matter, a very primitive
> metaphysics about the moment of an individual’s creation.  What follows is
> flagrantly silly, but here it is.   On my account, at the moment of birth a
> soul is taken out of storage and assigned to a body.  By “person” in the
> aphorism, I mean the combination of a particular soul with the particular
> body.  These assignments are at random.  So, for good or ill, no soul
> deserves the body it gets.   I cannot claim credit for my genes, my good
> uterine environment, my social capitol, my financial capitol, my bad hip,
> the draft deferment it provided, my getting a phd at absolute peak of
> demand for phd’s, my good education, even my FRIAM membership.  They are
> all consequences of that initial, random assignment.   Now YOU may credit
> me in some ways, because knowing that all these advantages have been
> assigned to me may make me useful or pleasing (or the opposite) in many
> ways, and that may bring me the advantages of your association.  But è I ç
> do not èdeserveç those advantages.
>
>
>
> This odd metaphysics leads me to enormous gratitude for the life I have
> been allowed to live and great sympathy for rigorous taxation of the
> advantaged, so that so much a soul’s future is not determined by that
> moment of assignment.
>
>
>
> I have no idea what happens to this primitive metaphysics if I try to
> integrate it with my monism.  The religious scholars among you might
> recognize as some backass weird perversion of Calvinism.
>
>
>
>
>
> Nick Thompson
>
> thompnicks...@gmail.com
>
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
>
>
> -  . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-.  . .-. .
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6  bit.ly/virtualfriam
> un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
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>
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Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side

[Sarbajit Roy]

Pieter
It *was* very bad, but it seems that with 70% of the population having
being infected , some kind of herd immunity prevails, at least for now.
https://theprint.in/health/4th-sero-survey-finds-2-of-3-indians-with-covid-antibodies-but-still-avoid-crowds-icmr-warns/699600/


On Thu, Aug 26, 2021 at 2:43 PM Pieter Steenekamp <
piet...@randcontrols.co.za> wrote:

> Thanks for the reply Sarbajit, so what you're saying is the situation is
> much worse in India than what the official numbers indicate.
>
> Pieter
>
> On Thu, 26 Aug 2021 at 10:48, Sarbajit Roy  wrote:
>
>> I can give you some more context citing my personal experience
>>
>> I stay in a spacious (for India) gated-off apartment complex in New
>> Delhi, with 90 apartments and about 400 residents. About 25% of the
>> apartments have retired doctors from India's premier hospitals, and we're
>> mostly educated professionals well clued in to take precautions..
>>
>> In the first COVID wave  which peaked in Sept 2020 we had 2 infections
>> and no deaths. In the second wave which peaked in May 2021, we had about 75
>> known infections (of which 25 needed hospitalization) and 8 COVID deaths in
>> my apartment complex alone. Similar numbers happened in the surrounding
>> apartment complexes. My father-in-law who stays in a similar apartment
>> complex a mile away was hospitalised for 10 days with COVID this May at the
>> peak but luckily pulled through at age 82 years. He only got a hospital bed
>> because he was Indian Army while other patients were being turned away in
>> droves before my eyes.
>>
>> Sarbajit
>>
>> On Thu, Aug 26, 2021 at 1:56 PM Sarbajit Roy  wrote:
>>
>>> Pieter
>>>
>>> The official statistics for India are quite (grossly) inaccurate. We can
>>> *conservatively* multiply the number of infections by x10 and the
>>> number of deaths by x3.
>>> While the statistics are comparatively better maintained in the urban
>>> areas, in the rural areas there is massive under-reporting and people were
>>> dying like flies.
>>> There is inadequate testing capacity and health infrastructure in the
>>> rural areas and we estimate the death rate at between 6% to 12% of the
>>> population in certain states.
>>>
>>> My own uncle, a retired Indian Army doctor aged about 81 years, was the
>>> only doctor left for a radius of 100 km in a densely populated state
>>> because the regular doctors had either fled or died of COVID. He
>>> expired 2 months ago, of COVID, while still in the saddle attending
>>> patients.
>>>
>>> Sarbajit
>>>
>>> On Thu, Aug 26, 2021 at 12:31 PM Pieter Steenekamp <
>>> piet...@randcontrols.co.za> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Sarbajit,
>>>>
>>>> When covid started I was very worried about India with it's high
>>>> population density. But according to
>>>> https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries the deaths/1M
>>>> population in India is 313. In the USA, for example, the figure is 1950
>>>> deaths/1M population.
>>>>
>>>> Further, according to
>>>> https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/india/ India seems
>>>> to be dodging the delta variant, because the daily new cases has been
>>>> dropping since May and seems to be staying low.
>>>>
>>>> My point is, India seems to be doing relatively less bad than many
>>>> other countries.
>>>>
>>>> Then, there seems to be relatively high prophylactic and early
>>>> treatment use of ivermectin in India.
>>>> Refer to:
>>>>
>>>> https://indianexpress.com/article/cities/lucknow/uttar-pradesh-government-says-ivermectin-helped-to-keep-deaths-low-7311786/
>>>>
>>>> https://www.forbes.com/sites/siladityaray/2021/05/11/indian-state-will-offer-ivermectin-to-entire-adult-population---even-as-who-warns-against-its-use-as-covid-19-treatment/?sh=18acd8956d9f
>>>>
>>>> https://covid19criticalcare.com/ivermectin-in-covid-19/epidemiologic-analyses-on-covid19-and-ivermectin/
>>>>
>>>> https://www.thedesertreview.com/opinion/columnists/indias-ivermectin-blackout---part-iii-the-lesson-of-kerala/article_ccecb97e-044e-11ec-9112-2b31ae87887a.html
>>>>
>>>> I'd like to have your views on this. Is there a possible causal link
>>>> between the use of ivermectin and low new covid infections in India?
>>>>
>>>> Pieter
>>>>
>>>>
>>>

Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side

[Sarbajit Roy]

I can give you some more context citing my personal experience

I stay in a spacious (for India) gated-off apartment complex in New Delhi,
with 90 apartments and about 400 residents. About 25% of the apartments
have retired doctors from India's premier hospitals, and we're mostly
educated professionals well clued in to take precautions..

In the first COVID wave  which peaked in Sept 2020 we had 2 infections and
no deaths. In the second wave which peaked in May 2021, we had about 75
known infections (of which 25 needed hospitalization) and 8 COVID deaths in
my apartment complex alone. Similar numbers happened in the surrounding
apartment complexes. My father-in-law who stays in a similar apartment
complex a mile away was hospitalised for 10 days with COVID this May at the
peak but luckily pulled through at age 82 years. He only got a hospital bed
because he was Indian Army while other patients were being turned away in
droves before my eyes.

Sarbajit

On Thu, Aug 26, 2021 at 1:56 PM Sarbajit Roy  wrote:

> Pieter
>
> The official statistics for India are quite (grossly) inaccurate. We can
> *conservatively* multiply the number of infections by x10 and the number
> of deaths by x3.
> While the statistics are comparatively better maintained in the urban
> areas, in the rural areas there is massive under-reporting and people were
> dying like flies.
> There is inadequate testing capacity and health infrastructure in the
> rural areas and we estimate the death rate at between 6% to 12% of the
> population in certain states.
>
> My own uncle, a retired Indian Army doctor aged about 81 years, was the
> only doctor left for a radius of 100 km in a densely populated state
> because the regular doctors had either fled or died of COVID. He expired
> 2 months ago, of COVID, while still in the saddle attending patients.
>
> Sarbajit
>
> On Thu, Aug 26, 2021 at 12:31 PM Pieter Steenekamp <
> piet...@randcontrols.co.za> wrote:
>
>> Sarbajit,
>>
>> When covid started I was very worried about India with it's high
>> population density. But according to
>> https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries the deaths/1M
>> population in India is 313. In the USA, for example, the figure is 1950
>> deaths/1M population.
>>
>> Further, according to
>> https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/india/ India seems to
>> be dodging the delta variant, because the daily new cases has been dropping
>> since May and seems to be staying low.
>>
>> My point is, India seems to be doing relatively less bad than many other
>> countries.
>>
>> Then, there seems to be relatively high prophylactic and early treatment
>> use of ivermectin in India.
>> Refer to:
>>
>> https://indianexpress.com/article/cities/lucknow/uttar-pradesh-government-says-ivermectin-helped-to-keep-deaths-low-7311786/
>>
>> https://www.forbes.com/sites/siladityaray/2021/05/11/indian-state-will-offer-ivermectin-to-entire-adult-population---even-as-who-warns-against-its-use-as-covid-19-treatment/?sh=18acd8956d9f
>>
>> https://covid19criticalcare.com/ivermectin-in-covid-19/epidemiologic-analyses-on-covid19-and-ivermectin/
>>
>> https://www.thedesertreview.com/opinion/columnists/indias-ivermectin-blackout---part-iii-the-lesson-of-kerala/article_ccecb97e-044e-11ec-9112-2b31ae87887a.html
>>
>> I'd like to have your views on this. Is there a possible causal link
>> between the use of ivermectin and low new covid infections in India?
>>
>> Pieter
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, 26 Aug 2021 at 04:42, Sarbajit Roy  wrote:
>>
>>> Hi
>>>
>>> I would like to give you an "Asian" (perhaps culturally distasteful)
>>> perspective on this from India.
>>>
>>> India has (officially) the 2nd highest number of COVID-19 infections and
>>> deaths after the USA.
>>>
>>> However, within India, there is a small class of people, like me, called
>>> Adi Brahmins .. it's a Hindu caste,  who don't wear masks or take
>>> clinically unproven or untested vaccinations, mainly because we continually
>>> practice an ancient non-contact system known as UNTOUCHABILITY. Since
>>> Brahmins are traditionally the scientific / intellectual elite of India, we
>>> have known about virii, fomites, their modes of transmission, and how they
>>> cause infection and disease for centuries and we knew this empirically even
>>> before microscopes were invented.
>>>
>>> The rules and concepts of untouchability are drilled into Brahmin
>>> children from infancy, and we practice it scrupulously even if it

Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side

[Sarbajit Roy]

Pieter

The official statistics for India are quite (grossly) inaccurate. We can
*conservatively* multiply the number of infections by x10 and the number of
deaths by x3.
While the statistics are comparatively better maintained in the urban
areas, in the rural areas there is massive under-reporting and people were
dying like flies.
There is inadequate testing capacity and health infrastructure in the rural
areas and we estimate the death rate at between 6% to 12% of the population
in certain states.

My own uncle, a retired Indian Army doctor aged about 81 years, was the
only doctor left for a radius of 100 km in a densely populated state
because the regular doctors had either fled or died of COVID. He expired 2
months ago, of COVID, while still in the saddle attending patients.

Sarbajit

On Thu, Aug 26, 2021 at 12:31 PM Pieter Steenekamp <
piet...@randcontrols.co.za> wrote:

> Sarbajit,
>
> When covid started I was very worried about India with it's high
> population density. But according to
> https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries the deaths/1M
> population in India is 313. In the USA, for example, the figure is 1950
> deaths/1M population.
>
> Further, according to
> https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/india/ India seems to
> be dodging the delta variant, because the daily new cases has been dropping
> since May and seems to be staying low.
>
> My point is, India seems to be doing relatively less bad than many other
> countries.
>
> Then, there seems to be relatively high prophylactic and early treatment
> use of ivermectin in India.
> Refer to:
>
> https://indianexpress.com/article/cities/lucknow/uttar-pradesh-government-says-ivermectin-helped-to-keep-deaths-low-7311786/
>
> https://www.forbes.com/sites/siladityaray/2021/05/11/indian-state-will-offer-ivermectin-to-entire-adult-population---even-as-who-warns-against-its-use-as-covid-19-treatment/?sh=18acd8956d9f
>
> https://covid19criticalcare.com/ivermectin-in-covid-19/epidemiologic-analyses-on-covid19-and-ivermectin/
>
> https://www.thedesertreview.com/opinion/columnists/indias-ivermectin-blackout---part-iii-the-lesson-of-kerala/article_ccecb97e-044e-11ec-9112-2b31ae87887a.html
>
> I'd like to have your views on this. Is there a possible causal link
> between the use of ivermectin and low new covid infections in India?
>
> Pieter
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, 26 Aug 2021 at 04:42, Sarbajit Roy  wrote:
>
>> Hi
>>
>> I would like to give you an "Asian" (perhaps culturally distasteful)
>> perspective on this from India.
>>
>> India has (officially) the 2nd highest number of COVID-19 infections and
>> deaths after the USA.
>>
>> However, within India, there is a small class of people, like me, called
>> Adi Brahmins .. it's a Hindu caste,  who don't wear masks or take
>> clinically unproven or untested vaccinations, mainly because we continually
>> practice an ancient non-contact system known as UNTOUCHABILITY. Since
>> Brahmins are traditionally the scientific / intellectual elite of India, we
>> have known about virii, fomites, their modes of transmission, and how they
>> cause infection and disease for centuries and we knew this empirically even
>> before microscopes were invented.
>>
>> The rules and concepts of untouchability are drilled into Brahmin
>> children from infancy, and we practice it scrupulously even if it is banned
>> by law in India. And it's not as if we dont believe in Western medicine
>> systems or science, I was drilled by my grandfather who was the Director
>> General of India's Armed Forces ( .. aka Surgeon General of India), to the
>> extent that even the metal cutlery at his dining table was "autoclaved"
>> before we used them.
>>
>> The people who are contracting and dying of COVID in India are the ones
>> who are fated to do so because of their own foolishness and ignorance, and
>> also because India's government wanted them to die.
>> https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-57005563
>>
>> Sarbajit Roy
>> New Delhi, India
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Aug 26, 2021 at 4:31 AM Gillian Densmore 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Pieter: YES! thats what I was trying to ask. Personally I think the
>>> science and tech around Vaccinations just rocks. On the human side: It is
>>> amazingly cool what people can do what we decide to do so.
>>> you bring up a good point! I watched youtube videos from people that
>>> made the vaccines. LOL I did need to try to ask for a translation on what
>>> it meant to map the genetics. RNA. mRNA.  And when I learned how safe the
>>> vaccine w

Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side

[Sarbajit Roy]

Nick,

it would be politically insensitive / incorrect for me to discuss America's
blacks in the context of, say, white plantation owners, "field hands" and
"house n**s" (not sure if I can use this word online nowadays) which
parallel India's untouchables or Japan's  Burakumin /Eta societal
structures.

Was it coincidence that the USA's most deadly COVID hotspots were
unhygienic meat "packing" factories which employ mostly lower income blacks
/ browns who were compelled to either work or lose their meagre medical
benefits ?

Sarbajit



On Thu, Aug 26, 2021 at 9:04 AM  wrote:

> Sarbajit,
>
>
>
> I am both fascinated and baffled by your note, and hope you will say
> more.  I am in the thrall of a book entitled CASTE which makes a parallel
> between the untouchables and American blacks.  So for you to associate high
> class with untouchability is disorienting.  I gather that the notion of
> Untouchables as a low caste includes a notion of Non-touchers as a high
> class?  I suppose it must, but I had never really thought about that.
>
>
>
> Nick
>
>
>
> Nick Thompson
>
> thompnicks...@gmail.com
>
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
>
>
>
> *From:* Friam  *On Behalf Of *Sarbajit Roy
> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 25, 2021 10:41 PM
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
> friam@redfish.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side
>
>
>
> Hi
>
> I would like to give you an "Asian" (perhaps culturally distasteful)
> perspective on this from India.
>
> India has (officially) the 2nd highest number of COVID-19 infections and
> deaths after the USA.
>
> However, within India, there is a small class of people, like me, called
> Adi Brahmins .. it's a Hindu caste,  who don't wear masks or take
> clinically unproven or untested vaccinations, mainly because we continually
> practice an ancient non-contact system known as UNTOUCHABILITY. Since
> Brahmins are traditionally the scientific / intellectual elite of India, we
> have known about virii, fomites, their modes of transmission, and how they
> cause infection and disease for centuries and we knew this empirically even
> before microscopes were invented.
>
> The rules and concepts of untouchability are drilled into Brahmin children
> from infancy, and we practice it scrupulously even if it is banned by law
> in India. And it's not as if we dont believe in Western medicine systems or
> science, I was drilled by my grandfather who was the Director General of
> India's Armed Forces ( .. aka Surgeon General of India), to the extent that
> even the metal cutlery at his dining table was "autoclaved" before we used
> them.
>
> The people who are contracting and dying of COVID in India are the ones
> who are fated to do so because of their own foolishness and ignorance, and
> also because India's government wanted them to die.
> https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-57005563
>
>
> Sarbajit Roy
>
> New Delhi, India
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 26, 2021 at 4:31 AM Gillian Densmore 
> wrote:
>
> Pieter: YES! thats what I was trying to ask. Personally I think the
> science and tech around Vaccinations just rocks. On the human side: It is
> amazingly cool what people can do what we decide to do so.
>
> you bring up a good point! I watched youtube videos from people that made
> the vaccines. LOL I did need to try to ask for a translation on what it
> meant to map the genetics. RNA. mRNA.  And when I learned how safe the
> vaccine was. Then I decided I couldn't get in line fast enough. It sounds
> like that's the opposite what some people are doing. It sounds like the
> hear: this was made using new medical technology, that hasn't neneded to be
> tested outside of labs until now. So they basically heard Fear And Doubt.
> Which is a shame.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Aug 25, 2021 at 11:56 AM Marcus Daniels 
> wrote:
>
> They aren't under a mandate to have sufficient capacity, or they'd have
> sufficient capacity.   Through a triage process they can prioritize.   It
> must happen already, even if it isn't legal.  Oh, the local drug addict is
> here again.  That guy is probably not #1 for the attention of the doctors.
> If enough big organizations like hospitals, grocery stores, etc. simply
> refuse to patronize people without evidence of vaccination, there doesn't
> need to be a mandate.   And it isn't just ERs, there are people getting
> allergy shots, getting physical therapy, eyeglasses adjusted, etc.  No
> shirt, no shoes, no vaccination, no service.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Friam  On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
> Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2021 10:47 AM
&

Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side

[Sarbajit Roy]

Hi

I would like to give you an "Asian" (perhaps culturally distasteful)
perspective on this from India.

India has (officially) the 2nd highest number of COVID-19 infections and
deaths after the USA.

However, within India, there is a small class of people, like me, called
Adi Brahmins .. it's a Hindu caste,  who don't wear masks or take
clinically unproven or untested vaccinations, mainly because we continually
practice an ancient non-contact system known as UNTOUCHABILITY. Since
Brahmins are traditionally the scientific / intellectual elite of India, we
have known about virii, fomites, their modes of transmission, and how they
cause infection and disease for centuries and we knew this empirically even
before microscopes were invented.

The rules and concepts of untouchability are drilled into Brahmin children
from infancy, and we practice it scrupulously even if it is banned by law
in India. And it's not as if we dont believe in Western medicine systems or
science, I was drilled by my grandfather who was the Director General of
India's Armed Forces ( .. aka Surgeon General of India), to the extent that
even the metal cutlery at his dining table was "autoclaved" before we used
them.

The people who are contracting and dying of COVID in India are the ones who
are fated to do so because of their own foolishness and ignorance, and also
because India's government wanted them to die.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-57005563

Sarbajit Roy
New Delhi, India




On Thu, Aug 26, 2021 at 4:31 AM Gillian Densmore 
wrote:

> Pieter: YES! thats what I was trying to ask. Personally I think the
> science and tech around Vaccinations just rocks. On the human side: It is
> amazingly cool what people can do what we decide to do so.
> you bring up a good point! I watched youtube videos from people that made
> the vaccines. LOL I did need to try to ask for a translation on what it
> meant to map the genetics. RNA. mRNA.  And when I learned how safe the
> vaccine was. Then I decided I couldn't get in line fast enough. It sounds
> like that's the opposite what some people are doing. It sounds like the
> hear: this was made using new medical technology, that hasn't neneded to be
> tested outside of labs until now. So they basically heard Fear And Doubt.
> Which is a shame.
>
>
>
> On Wed, Aug 25, 2021 at 11:56 AM Marcus Daniels 
> wrote:
>
>> They aren't under a mandate to have sufficient capacity, or they'd have
>> sufficient capacity.   Through a triage process they can prioritize.   It
>> must happen already, even if it isn't legal.  Oh, the local drug addict is
>> here again.  That guy is probably not #1 for the attention of the doctors.
>> If enough big organizations like hospitals, grocery stores, etc. simply
>> refuse to patronize people without evidence of vaccination, there doesn't
>> need to be a mandate.   And it isn't just ERs, there are people getting
>> allergy shots, getting physical therapy, eyeglasses adjusted, etc.  No
>> shirt, no shoes, no vaccination, no service.
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Friam  On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
>> Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2021 10:47 AM
>> To: friam@redfish.com
>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side
>>
>> That's just nonsense. By the time you're at the ER, the vaccine is
>> largely irrelevant. Plus, when some 18 year old kid comes in unconscious
>> with a gunshot wound, it's difficult to ask her if she's been vaccinated or
>> not.
>>
>> Anyway, most large hospitals are under a mandate to treat whoever walks
>> in the door, even if they don't have insurance. To make the change you
>> suggest would require major legislative effort and, perhaps, re-architect
>> the laws that govern public medicine. You're not gonna do that anytime soon.
>>
>> Taking a look at this site:
>> https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2020/12/09/944379919/new-data-reveal-which-hospitals-are-dangerously-full-is-yours
>> it seems the ratio of covid patients is actually lower than I thought.
>> The actual problem is insufficient buffer capacity, not the surge in covid
>> patients. The covid patients are simply demonstrating the problem.
>>
>>
>> On 8/25/21 9:58 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
>> > Will you consent to a vaccine?
>> >
>> > Yes:  You get treatment for your non-COVID condition.  No:  Get lost.
>> >
>> > -Original Message-
>> > From: Friam  On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
>> > Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2021 9:53 AM
>> > To: friam@redfish.com
>> > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side
>> >
>> > Because the majority of the patients in the ERs are not covid patients.
>> (Last I heard the percen

Re: [FRIAM] vax v unvax

[Sarbajit Roy]

This article may help
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-021-01377-8.pdf

On Thu, Aug 19, 2021 at 8:36 PM Roger Critchlow  wrote:

> What boggles my mind is that the aggregated results are so
> consistently wrong.  The aggregated efficacy of 67.5% is less than all the
> stratified efficacies.  The 2 group efficacies are less than 9 out of 10 of
> the 10 group efficacies.  I imagine plotting this and getting a little
> firework as the efficacy rates just keep going up and up.  All of the
> aggregated efficacies are underestimates for all or almost all of the
> stratified efficacies.
>
> I just read a NYTimes brief on measuring vaccine efficacy and saw plots in
> which the single number estimate for efficacy was surrounded by a region of
> uncertainty, which is what I expect when someone gives me a single number
> estimate of some measurement.  I'm guessing that the clinical trials
> balanced age group participation in the trials so all age groups had the
> same vaccination rate, but I don't see how they could design to control for
> the increasing frailty of older bodies.  Is it possible that the single
> number efficacy estimates understate the efficacy
>
> Oh, the quantity 1-vax/unvax is *efficacy* when measured during clinical
> trials.  The same quantity is *effectiveness* when measured after vaccine
> deployment.  A distinction which must be useful in some discussions.
>
> -- rec --
>
> On Wed, Aug 18, 2021 at 11:21 PM Frank Wimberly 
> wrote:
>
>> Simpson's example:  in a high school class females get higher grades in
>> their classes but males get higher scores on the SAT.  For both genders SAT
>> scores and grades are positively correlated but in the whole class they are
>> negatively correlated.
>>
>> ---
>> Frank C. Wimberly
>> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
>> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>>
>> 505 670-9918
>> Santa Fe, NM
>>
>> On Wed, Aug 18, 2021, 9:05 PM David Eric Smith 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Indeed, Roger,
>>>
>>> Spirit of fun in the original already very clear.
>>>
>>> Why I get some sort of pleasure, when there is already a perfectly good
>>> reductio ad absurdum, in looking for ways to change its appearance of
>>> tautology, I do not understand.  Fortunately _that_ is not an important
>>> question.
>>>
>>> Eric
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Aug 19, 2021, at 11:50 AM, Roger Critchlow  wrote:
>>>
>>> Eric -
>>>
>>> No problem with the modification, I was just making noise at that
>>> point:  death panels, statistical police, knowledge is oppression, and so
>>> on.
>>>
>>> I see, Morris did exactly what you were suggesting and then went on to
>>> itemize every quibble that might come up in the conclusion.
>>>
>>> I might even remember Simpson's Paradox after this, at least for a few
>>> days.
>>>
>>> -- rec --
>>>
>>> -- rec --
>>>
>>> On Wed, Aug 18, 2021 at 8:27 PM Frank Wimberly 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 So that's why I'm feeling uneasy as I approach 80.  




 ---
 Frank C. Wimberly
 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
 Santa Fe, NM 87505

 505 670-9918
 Santa Fe, NM

 On Wed, Aug 18, 2021, 5:38 PM David Eric Smith 
 wrote:

> May I offer a tiny rewording to one of your sentences, Roger?
>
> Given that right now I am in a months-long redraft of a paper, which
> feels like having my teeth drilled, trying to say some things about the
> difference between what one can do with summary statistics and what one
> does with population-wide regressions.  I am in a situation where I can’t
> use terms (this community doesn’t use them), can’t cite to where they are
> explained (not their literature; they will not go follow a cite), and 
> can’t
> explain them in-line (too long; people don’t want to read all that).
> Complain complain complain.
>
> Interesting thing is that the particular “data” we are getting are, of
> course, summary statistics. So:
>
> You said:
>
> Next the statistics police will be telling us how to use the data!
>
>
> How about:
>
> Next the statistics police will be telling us how to use the
> statistics!
>
>
> Eric
>
>
> On Aug 19, 2021, at 7:00 AM, Roger Critchlow  wrote:
>
> The Israeli data turned up in Andrew Gelman's blog today
>
>
> https://statmodeling.stat.columbia.edu/2021/08/18/coronavirus-and-simpsons-paradox-oldsters-are-more-likely-to-be-vaccinated-and-more-likely-to-have-severe-infections-so-you-need-to-adjust-for-age-when-comparing-vaccinated-and-unvaccinated-peopl/
>
> The argument broken out in his correspondent's blog:
>
>
> https://www.covid-datascience.com/post/israeli-data-how-can-efficacy-vs-severe-disease-be-strong-when-60-of-hospitalized-are-vaccinated
> 

Re: [FRIAM] why, me, o lord?!

[Sarbajit Roy]

HWMONITOR to monitor the CPU
https://www.cpuid.com/downloads/hwmonitor/hwmonitor_1.44.exe


On Sun, Jul 18, 2021 at 9:24 PM  wrote:

> Thanks everybody.  Right now all is quiet.  Last night, it was making
> noises like a saw-whet owl that has slammed his talons in a car door.  I
> will pay close attention to the heating issue.  So far the machine is
> barely warm to the touch.  I have them on a three year, come-to-my-door
> warrantee, so I aint buying no new machine in the near future.
>
>
>
> 7 inches of rain in July and counting.
>
>
>
> Carl, it was particularly good to hear from you.  Two gifts you have given
> me forever are “steaming dog vomit” and “imagine a spherical cow”.  Surely
> you have more of that sort of stuff in you.  Don’t be a stranger.
>
>
>
> Nick
>
>
>
> Nick Thompson
>
> thompnicks...@gmail.com
>
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
>
>
>
> *From:* Friam  *On Behalf Of *Frank Wimberly
> *Sent:* Sunday, July 18, 2021 8:54 AM
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
> friam@redfish.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] why, me, o lord?!
>
>
>
> I took my Lenovo laptop running Ubuntu Linux to Best Buy because it
> wouldn't accept the 20 character disk encryption password that had
> previously worked.  I thought it might be a good time to convert it to
> Windows 10 which would give the house more flexibility.  I further thought
> this would be a matter of wiping the hard drive and installing W10.  All
> the data I care about are in the cloud. The Geek Squad receptionist said he
> didn't know anything about Linux and that he would ask a "tech".  Sounds
> like "let me talk to my manager."  The conclusion was the hardware is too
> old to support W10 so why don't I just buy a new laptop which might be a
> less expensive option.  It has an Intel I7 processor.
>
>
>
> I decided to take it to Marcos who wiped the disk and installed a new
> version of Ubuntu.  I took it home and installed Zoom.  For all other
> purposes accessing applications via the browser should work.  I might have
> to install Steam so Matthew can play games with his international friends.
>
>
>
> But the consensus is that yours is a fan problem.  The only relevance of
> my experience is to resist buying a new computer unless there is no other
> less costly option.  Good luck, Nick.
>
>
>
> ---
> Frank C. Wimberly
> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>
> 505 670-9918
> Santa Fe, NM
>
>
>
> On Sat, Jul 17, 2021, 11:31 PM Pieter Steenekamp <
> piet...@randcontrols.co.za> wrote:
>
> I agree with Carl that it's most probably fan problems and that could lead
> to overheating.
>
> You obviously need to get it serviced. In the meantime I recommend you
> search for how to measure the temperature of the CPU and then monitor it. I
> guess that while the temperature is not too high you would have some
> breathing space while waiting to have it serviced. I tinker with Raspberry
> Pis that don't not come standard with any cooling so I monitor the CPU
> temperatures, but that's in Linux so I don't think sharing what I do would
> help you.
>
> I'm sure you don't need to be reminded to ensure that all your important
> data is securely backed up
>
>
>
> On Sun, 18 Jul 2021 at 06:49,  wrote:
>
> Anybody,
>
>
>
> My Lenovo laptop has started making the oddest array of noises.  It
> started with clunks and chunks and churrs but has now moved on to peeps and
> whistles.  It’s latest production is a dying swan noise … a squeal, that
> descends in halftones and intensity followed by a scary silence… for a
> bit.
>
>
>
> Lenovo customer service seems to be “upgrading its systems” and has not
> responded for three days.  Much as the noises sound like a dying mechanical
> hard drive,  this machine has a solid state hard drive.  Any thoughts?  The
> machine seems to be working fine otherwise, but I am afraid it is going to
> shake itself to death.
>
>
>
> Sorry to bother you with this.
>
>
>
> N
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Nick Thompson
>
> thompnicks...@gmail.com
>
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
>
>
>
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>
> -  . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-.  . .-. .
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>
> -  . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-.  . .-. .
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6  bit.ly/virtualfriam
> un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
> archives: 

Re: [FRIAM] NYU Professor Creates COVID-19 Dashboard to Compare Country and State Data

[Sarbajit Roy]

GIGO.

COVID-19 statistics (data) is suspect and not strictly comparable across
countries, starting with China's numbers.

On Thu, Jan 28, 2021 at 1:20 AM Tom Johnson  wrote:

> NYU Professor Creates COVID-19 Dashboard to Compare Country and State Data
> by Sabrina I. Pacifici
> 
>  on Jan
> 26, 2021
>
> “A new online dashboard
> ,
> created by NYU Professor Alexej Jerschow
> ,
> brings together COVID-19 data from U.S. states and countries around the
> world to compare cases, deaths, vaccines, and testing in a visual,
> user-friendly format.  The tool also integrates a range of policies
>
>
-  . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-.  . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6  bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/

Re: [FRIAM] Book publishing advice needed

[Sarbajit Roy]

Gary

Actually I agree with you to a considerable extent.

Let us consider Edward's book, On Amazon-India his book (the 7th edn) is
available to us at a Kindle price of approx $9.50. Amazon sells the same
Kindle book in China at $45 and at $155+ for Kindle in the USA.

What does this suggest to you ? For me it's that the authors are not making
the profits - Jeff Bezos  do

Now to come back to the question of why prices in India are affordable,
it's because we have (had ?) a few activist judges who ensured that India's
constitutional status as a *socialist* state means the needs of the many
(parasites ?) takes priority over the profits of the producers (creators).

The prices of most life-saving *quality* drugs in India are probably 1/20th
of what you would pay in the States. That's because the same court enforced
our nation's sovereign rights under TRIPS/CUTS/WTO agreements etc . When I
read about poor people in USA not being able to afford their next insulin
shot because it's so darn expensive, you may like to know that a 30 shot
insulin Flexpen costs about $5 while the same manufacturer sells the
identical pen for 20 times the price in New York.

Sarbajit

On Mon, Jul 6, 2020 at 6:09 AM Gary Schiltz 
wrote:

> No offense to the government of your country, but just because its courts
> have judged it to be legal, doesn't make it right. Of course "right" is a
> subjective, moral concept, and I hasten to add that morality is relative
> and personal. Additionally, I don't know how subject other countries are to
> the pronouncements of a particular country's judgments. I'll leave that to
> the United Nations. But in the case of copyrights, my own view of what is
> right is that the availability for copying of material should ideally be in
> the hands of the author. My two cents worth.
>
> On Sun, Jul 5, 2020 at 7:11 PM Sarbajit Roy  wrote:
>
>> I got your book from here
>>
>> https://www.pdfdrive.com/interactive-computer-graphics-a-top-down-approach-with-webgl-edward-angel-and-dave-d38281420.html
>>
>> The Indian judgment is clear, Reproduction is limited to a copy which the
>> teacher/institute has LEGALLY purchased.
>>
>> There are other judgments from the same court directing that thousands of
>> infringing movie piracy websites (and their whack-a-mole clones) are
>> blocked in India for copyright violation and harm caused to producers.
>>
>> https://globalfreedomofexpression.columbia.edu/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/Utv_Software_Communication_Ltd._..._vs_1337X.To_And_Ors_on_10_April_2019-1.pdf
>>
>> Sarbajit
>>
>> On Mon, Jul 6, 2020 at 5:17 AM Edward Angel  wrote:
>>
>>> Thanks but the story is more complex.
>>>
>>> What transpired is in retrospect somewhat amusing. I received an email
>>> from someone at a university that was using the book asking if I knew there
>>> was a ps file on the web of the whole book. I checked it out, contacted the
>>> instructor who had it taken down. I had no idea how anyone had obtained a
>>> perfect copy of the book. Even during copyediting, I never was given access
>>> to a final ps version with even the typesetting marks. My editor started a
>>> big investigation at Pearson to see who had violated security during
>>> production only to find out after weeks that the people at Pearson who
>>> dealt with accessibility issues were sending out the file to every school
>>> that adopted the book (at the time around 200 just in the US).
>>>
>>> What is odd to me is that the last time I checked libgen.io, which was
>>> a while ago, the version there was not a ps version put a pdf in which you
>>> could use the TOC interactively so I figured it was the kindle version
>>> which my editor, who had become somewhat expert at this, showed me how easy
>>> it is to get the kindle version. Apparently what is the the situation now
>>> is that the ps version is libgen.is so someone else must have uploaded
>>> it.
>>>
>>> The material on the Indian decision on respect to fair use was very
>>> interesting. I was familiar with the fair use policies in the U.S. and the
>>> U.K. In spirit, they are the same. However, the problem is not fair use but
>>> with sites like libgen, where anyone can upload a file irrespective of
>>> copyright or ownership  That file is then available worldwide to everyone.
>>> Consequently, the holders of the copyright have no protection at all other
>>> than some people having ethical issues with libgen. Sadly, I find many of
>>> my colleagues and students do not see this as an ethical issue.
>>>
>>> Ed
>>>
>>> ___

Re: [FRIAM] Book publishing advice needed

[Sarbajit Roy]

I got your book from here
https://www.pdfdrive.com/interactive-computer-graphics-a-top-down-approach-with-webgl-edward-angel-and-dave-d38281420.html

The Indian judgment is clear, Reproduction is limited to a copy which the
teacher/institute has LEGALLY purchased.

There are other judgments from the same court directing that thousands of
infringing movie piracy websites (and their whack-a-mole clones) are
blocked in India for copyright violation and harm caused to producers.
https://globalfreedomofexpression.columbia.edu/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/Utv_Software_Communication_Ltd._..._vs_1337X.To_And_Ors_on_10_April_2019-1.pdf

Sarbajit

On Mon, Jul 6, 2020 at 5:17 AM Edward Angel  wrote:

> Thanks but the story is more complex.
>
> What transpired is in retrospect somewhat amusing. I received an email
> from someone at a university that was using the book asking if I knew there
> was a ps file on the web of the whole book. I checked it out, contacted the
> instructor who had it taken down. I had no idea how anyone had obtained a
> perfect copy of the book. Even during copyediting, I never was given access
> to a final ps version with even the typesetting marks. My editor started a
> big investigation at Pearson to see who had violated security during
> production only to find out after weeks that the people at Pearson who
> dealt with accessibility issues were sending out the file to every school
> that adopted the book (at the time around 200 just in the US).
>
> What is odd to me is that the last time I checked libgen.io, which was a
> while ago, the version there was not a ps version put a pdf in which you
> could use the TOC interactively so I figured it was the kindle version
> which my editor, who had become somewhat expert at this, showed me how easy
> it is to get the kindle version. Apparently what is the the situation now
> is that the ps version is libgen.is so someone else must have uploaded it.
>
> The material on the Indian decision on respect to fair use was very
> interesting. I was familiar with the fair use policies in the U.S. and the
> U.K. In spirit, they are the same. However, the problem is not fair use but
> with sites like libgen, where anyone can upload a file irrespective of
> copyright or ownership  That file is then available worldwide to everyone.
> Consequently, the holders of the copyright have no protection at all other
> than some people having ethical issues with libgen. Sadly, I find many of
> my colleagues and students do not see this as an ethical issue.
>
> Ed
>
> ___
>
> Ed Angel
>
> Founding Director, Art, Research, Technology and Science Laboratory
> (ARTS Lab)
> Professor Emeritus of Computer Science, University of New Mexico
>
> 1017 Sierra Pinon
> Santa Fe, NM 87501
> 505-984-0136 (home)   an...@cs.unm.edu
> 505-453-4944 (cell)  http://www.cs.unm.edu/~angel
>
> On Jul 5, 2020, at 4:14 PM, Sarbajit Roy  wrote:
>
> Edward
>
> The PDF of the 7th edition of your book being widely circulated was very
> likely not generated from its Kindle version, but from the Postscript
> version used to print your book. It was generated using Adobe Distiller 7+
> for a Macintosh. Must have been cloned from one of those unwatermarked
> copies dished out by your publisher's marketing team to "potential"
> customers.
>
> Sarbajit
>
> On Sun, Jul 5, 2020 at 2:52 AM Edward Angel  wrote:
>
>> I’ve been a book author since 1972 and a textbook author since 1989. My
>> computer graphics textbook has been the most popular book in the area for
>> 20 years and just came out in its eighth edition with various editions
>> being available in Chinese, Korean, Japanese and Russian. Sadly, the book
>> business has changed over that time; changed in way that is bad for almost
>> everyone, especially authors. I think you’re faced with a lot of bad
>> choices. I hope some of the following will prove helpful. And if not
>> helpful, at least interesting.
>>
>> Before I forget, you might enjoy reading of my adventures writing the
>> first edition of my present textbook while on sabbatical in Venezuela,
>> Ecuador, Hong Kong and Nepal. There’s a pointer to it on my home page
>> www.cs.unm.edu/~angel
>>
>> When I had to pick a publisher, I knew the editors and  local book reps
>> at Academic Press, Addison-Wesley, Prentice Hall and Benjamin/Cummings.
>> They dominated the CS field and did so largely because they had editors who
>> knew the field, excellent book reps who knew the needs of the faculty and
>> students, a willingness to invest in a book, and in-house production. None
>> of these exist anymore and, as Tom pointed out, you're largely on your own.
>> It’s unfortunate 

Re: [FRIAM] Book publishing advice needed

[Sarbajit Roy]

Edward

The PDF of the 7th edition of your book being widely circulated was very
likely not generated from its Kindle version, but from the Postscript
version used to print your book. It was generated using Adobe Distiller 7+
for a Macintosh. Must have been cloned from one of those unwatermarked
copies dished out by your publisher's marketing team to "potential"
customers.

Sarbajit

On Sun, Jul 5, 2020 at 2:52 AM Edward Angel  wrote:

> I’ve been a book author since 1972 and a textbook author since 1989. My
> computer graphics textbook has been the most popular book in the area for
> 20 years and just came out in its eighth edition with various editions
> being available in Chinese, Korean, Japanese and Russian. Sadly, the book
> business has changed over that time; changed in way that is bad for almost
> everyone, especially authors. I think you’re faced with a lot of bad
> choices. I hope some of the following will prove helpful. And if not
> helpful, at least interesting.
>
> Before I forget, you might enjoy reading of my adventures writing the
> first edition of my present textbook while on sabbatical in Venezuela,
> Ecuador, Hong Kong and Nepal. There’s a pointer to it on my home page
> www.cs.unm.edu/~angel
>
> When I had to pick a publisher, I knew the editors and  local book reps at
> Academic Press, Addison-Wesley, Prentice Hall and Benjamin/Cummings. They
> dominated the CS field and did so largely because they had editors who knew
> the field, excellent book reps who knew the needs of the faculty and
> students, a willingness to invest in a book, and in-house production. None
> of these exist anymore and, as Tom pointed out, you're largely on your own.
> It’s unfortunate if you care about how many copies get sold and your
> royalties. I have many friends who self-published in the past. It’s a lot
> of work either way but I prefer to put my effort into content and not
> type-setting or marketing. None of my self-published friends have ever sold
> many books.
>
> I had three excellent editors over 20 years. When I did my first edition,
> my editor hired a development editor at great expense to improve the
> quality of my writing. She worked with the CS faculty and grad students at
> Caltech and Stanford. It made a huge difference. Now almost none of these
> jobs exist within the publishers. All production is contracted out to the
> low bidders (art, typesetting, copy editing, etc) most of whom are in
> India. I no longer have an editor. There is one person working for the
> publusher with whom I communicate with to try to get things done correctly
> with the contractors. This last edition has been a long painful experience.
>
> So what happened? Books were always expensive for students, especially
> when sold through college bookstores. Then used book sellers appeared and
> Asian students started importing low cost Asian versions of the standard
> textbooks. Under US copyright laws, both are legal. The publishers
> responded by upping prices which reduced sales even more.
>
> And then came electronic media. At first, my book, like most others, was
> still print-only. But the publisher sent perfect unwatermarked pdfs to all
> the schools what adopted the book for use by students with special needs.
> Wasn’t long before those pdfs made it to the Web. Then they had a
> electronic version and a kindle version that students could rent for a
> semester or year. The publisher, the largest in the business, was clueless
> about web security and had no idea that Kindles are not secure. Very
> quickly, the book appeared (with most of the other cs texts and various
> best sellers) on a Russian website as a “public service.” End of paid sales.
>
> The new edition is only available in electronic form and the publisher
> claims it is only available on a secure site. I doubt anyone on this list
> believes that.
>
> Although I never in the past had issues with the publisher having the
> copyright, which was pretty standard, I wish I had it now. Since there is
> no hope of making significant royalties now (we used), my coauthor and I
> would like to put the book out for free on our websites rather than having
> it appear on various illegal Russian sites known to most students.
>
> Personally, I no longer care about royalties but the long term issue I
> worry about is why would any young person write a textbook. It’s a huge
> amount of work and usually not something that in the academic world is
> valued as highly as research papers and grant funding.
>
> Ed
> ___
>
> Ed Angel
>
> Founding Director, Art, Research, Technology and Science Laboratory
> (ARTS Lab)
> Professor Emeritus of Computer Science, University of New Mexico
>
> 1017 Sierra Pinon
> Santa Fe, NM 87501
> 505-984-0136 (home)   an...@cs.unm.edu
> 505-453-4944 (cell)  http://www.cs.unm.edu/~angel
>
> On Jul 4, 2020, at 2:25 PM, Jochen Fromm  wrote:
>
> Thanks. Yes, self-publishing is an option. I am looking for an official
> 

Re: [FRIAM] Book publishing advice needed

[Sarbajit Roy]

Having printed books in India on behalf of European and Australian
academics, my experience is if the print run is 500+ then the cost of
offset printing (on fairly decent paper) and perfect binding a softcover
book with approx. 250 -300 pages is about $3.50 per copy shipped to the USA.

500 copies seems to be the crossover quantity for digital versus offset
printed books.

On Sun, Jul 5, 2020 at 6:33 PM Eric Charles 
wrote:

> Probably make digital copies accessible for $5, and whatever the
> equivalent these days is for other media.
>
> I say that... but probably free at this point,  thats what i would have
> started with
>
> At any rate,  it would be nice to have the copyright in principle.
>
>
>
> On Sat, Jul 4, 2020, 11:56 PM  wrote:
>
>> Eric,
>>
>>
>>
>> If you had the rights back, what would you do with them?
>>
>>
>>
>> N
>>
>>
>>
>> Nicholas Thompson
>>
>> Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
>>
>> Clark University
>>
>> thompnicks...@gmail.com
>>
>> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Friam  *On Behalf Of *Eric Charles
>> *Sent:* Saturday, July 4, 2020 8:55 PM
>> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
>> friam@redfish.com>
>> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Book publishing advice needed
>>
>>
>>
>> Nick said " the contract should explicitly say that rights revert to the
>> author when the publisher no longer maintains the book in print and
>> promotes it."
>>
>>
>>
>> I handwrote that into the contract for the book on New Realism
>> (presumably based on a suggestion from you). Alas, that's an almost
>> nonsensical insertion at this point. The company will maintain a website
>> that lists the book indefinitely, with it available for purchase from
>> various marketplaces such as Amazon and Google books. So it is "maintained"
>> and "promoted", at no cost, in perpetuity, and is always available, because
>> books can now easily be printed on demand in single copy. I expect nowadays
>> it might make more sense to say something like: "If the book sells no
>> copies in X years, in any medium supported by the publisher, then the
>> rights revert to the author."
>>
>>
>>
>> It has been nine years, and the book still hasn't sold enough copies for
>> me to see a penny.
>>
>>
>>
>> If I were writing a novel I would definitely either self publish or find
>> a firm that focuses on online publishing, and which returns a definite
>> marketing plan in return for their cut (there are firms that focus on
>> kickstarting novels, or other internet forums, for example).
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ---
>>
>> Eric P. Charles, Ph.D.
>> Department of Justice - Personnel Psychologist
>>
>> American University - Adjunct Instructor
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Jul 4, 2020 at 4:46 PM  wrote:
>>
>> At the very list, the contract should explicitly say that rights revert
>> to the author when the publisher no longer maintains the book in print and
>> promotes it.  I often edited my magazine contracts to give only first
>> rights.  I agree with Tom, that copyright should stay with the author.
>>
>>
>>
>> N
>>
>>
>>
>> Nicholas Thompson
>>
>> Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
>>
>> Clark University
>>
>> thompnicks...@gmail.com
>>
>> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Friam  *On Behalf Of *Tom Johnson
>> *Sent:* Saturday, July 4, 2020 2:32 PM
>> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
>> friam@redfish.com>
>> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Book publishing advice needed
>>
>>
>>
>> Another advantage of self-publishing is that you retain the copyright.
>> Ergo, you can license it to a publisher for an updated edition or just
>> distribution.
>>
>> Tom
>>
>>
>> 
>> Tom Johnson - t...@jtjohnson.com
>> Institute for Analytic Journalism   -- Santa Fe, NM USA
>> 505.577.6482(c)505.473.9646(h)
>> *NM Foundation for Open Government* 
>> *Check out It's The People's Data
>> *
>>
>>
>> 
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> 
>>
>> Virus-free. www.avast.com
>> 
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Jul 4, 2020 at 2:25 PM Jochen Fromm  wrote:
>>
>> Thanks. Yes, self-publishing is an option. I am looking for an official
>> publisher mainly for one reason, namely that other scientists and
>> researchers can cite it, since I still cling to the illusion that someone
>> would actually do it. Normally self-published texts are not considered as
>> reliable or trustworthy sources. I didn't expect that finding a decent
>> publisher would be so difficult.
>>
>>
>>
>> -J.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>  Original message 
>>
>> From: Tom Johnson 
>>
>> Date: 7/4/20 

Re: [FRIAM] Illegal copies of your book

[Sarbajit Roy]

Nick
I suspect you read the Wikipedia article rather than the actual judgement
accessible here
https://indiankanoon.org/doc/114459608/

Paras 76 and 77 would amply clarify the Ld. appellate judge's state of mind
immediately before they issued their direction in the next paragraph

"*76. A lay person may question as to how a provision in a statute results
in an interpretation where a right conferred on a person to use the work of
another without any compensation would be just and fair. The question would
obviously arise : Is it possible that a provision in a statute partially
drowns another provision. This lay person would obviously desire, and
perhaps logic would feed the desire, that no provision should be drowned or
partially drowned. After all, in the melody of the statute all notes should
be heard. *

*77. We therefore answer this question, which certainly arises, using the
imagery of music. A melody is the outcome of the sounds created when
different instruments, such as a lute, flute, timbale, harp and drums are
played in harmony. The notes of the instruments which are loud and
resonating have to be controlled so that the sound of the delicate
instruments can be heard. But it has to be kept in mind that at proper
times the sound of the drums drowns out the sound of all other instruments
under a deafening thunder of the brilliant beating of the drums. Thus, it
is possible that the melody of a statute may at times require a particular
Section, in a limited circumstance, to so outstretch itself that, within
the confines of the limited circumstance, another Section or Sections may
be muted.*"
I have nothing further to say about this judgment (or the judges and their
Metaphors), except that it serves the cause of getting cheap (pirated)
books into the hands of poor students.over here

Sarbajit



On Mon, Jul 6, 2020 at 2:15 AM  wrote:

> Those passages were abundantly clear, as you predicted.   I have to admit,
> the whole argument feels casuistic, even though I agree with its
> conclusion.
>
>
>
> But I was (as I often am) interested in the METAPHOR implicit in the other
> rendition I read
>
>
>
> “It happens in law that footprints of one concept fall in the territory of
> other but that does not mean that the former should be restricted.."[3]
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rameshwari_Photocopy_Service_shop_copyright_case#cite_note-:0-3>
>
> Do you have any idea what the writer had in mind?  I feel like there is
> some interesting thought there that I cannot quite grasp.
>
>
>
> Nicholas Thompson
>
> Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
>
> Clark University
>
> thompnicks...@gmail.com
>
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Friam  *On Behalf Of *Sarbajit Roy
> *Sent:* Sunday, July 5, 2020 2:33 PM
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
> friam@redfish.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Illegal copies of your book
>
>
>
> Nick,
> Let me only say, having some personal experience of the judge in question,
> that English is not the first, or even second, language of many superior
> court judges in India.
>
> in my view, the original judgment under appeal is far better reading for
> its clarity of reasoning, especially paras 72 to 78
> https://indiankanoon.org/doc/135895592/
>
> rgds
>
> Sarbajit
>
>
>
> On Sun, Jul 5, 2020 at 10:39 PM  wrote:
>
> Sarbajit,
>
>
>
> Can you provide an exegesis of this wonderfully opaque passage from the
> judgement?
>
>
>
> It happens in law that footprints of one concept fall in the territory of
> other but that does not mean that the former should be restricted.."[3]
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rameshwari_Photocopy_Service_shop_copyright_case#cite_note-:0-3>
>
> I suspect that this is a translation of some proverb which has richness
> not rendered in the translation.
>
>
>
> Nick
>
>
>
> Nicholas Thompson
>
> Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
>
> Clark University
>
> thompnicks...@gmail.com
>
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Friam  *On Behalf Of *Sarbajit Roy
> *Sent:* Sunday, July 5, 2020 10:21 AM
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
> friam@redfish.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Illegal copies of your book
>
>
>
> Dear Gillian
>
> It's not an unpopular opinion at all.
>
>
> The High Court at New Delhi, India considered these issues and said it's
> perfectly legal for a teacher to PHOTOCOPY or REPRODUCE chapters of
> over-priced/unaffordable/expensive foreign textbooks for the benefit of
> their students, AND that no royalty is to be paid to the book publishers.
>
> The ex

Re: [FRIAM] Illegal copies of your book

[Sarbajit Roy]

Nick,
Let me only say, having some personal experience of the judge in question,
that English is not the first, or even second, language of many superior
court judges in India.
in my view, the original judgment under appeal is far better reading for
its clarity of reasoning, especially paras 72 to 78
https://indiankanoon.org/doc/135895592/
rgds
Sarbajit

On Sun, Jul 5, 2020 at 10:39 PM  wrote:

> Sarbajit,
>
>
>
> Can you provide an exegesis of this wonderfully opaque passage from the
> judgement?
>
>
>
> It happens in law that footprints of one concept fall in the territory of
> other but that does not mean that the former should be restricted.."[3]
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rameshwari_Photocopy_Service_shop_copyright_case#cite_note-:0-3>
>
> I suspect that this is a translation of some proverb which has richness
> not rendered in the translation.
>
>
>
> Nick
>
>
>
> Nicholas Thompson
>
> Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
>
> Clark University
>
> thompnicks...@gmail.com
>
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Friam  *On Behalf Of *Sarbajit Roy
> *Sent:* Sunday, July 5, 2020 10:21 AM
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
> friam@redfish.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Illegal copies of your book
>
>
>
> Dear Gillian
>
> It's not an unpopular opinion at all.
>
>
> The High Court at New Delhi, India considered these issues and said it's
> perfectly legal for a teacher to PHOTOCOPY or REPRODUCE chapters of
> over-priced/unaffordable/expensive foreign textbooks for the benefit of
> their students, AND that no royalty is to be paid to the book publishers.
>
> The exceptionally well reasoned decision was upheld by the Supreme Court
> of India after the book publishers withdrew their appeals.
>
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rameshwari_Photocopy_Service_shop_copyright_case
>
> So if you know anybody needing photocopies (2 cents per page of expensive
> books accessible to our vast library of PDFs and DJVUs, I would be happy to
> have them as my student ;-)
>
> Sarbajit Roy
>
> New Delhi, India
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, Jul 5, 2020 at 7:24 AM Gillian Densmore 
> wrote:
>
> I'll put this out their as I suspect a unpopular opinion. It's be been my
> unfortunate experience teachers want ridiculously expensive specialty
> books. The most egregious was some prof for a management class that thought
> it'd be a good idea to drop 700 dollars on a book. Most of the class except
> some brown-noser agreed. He did EVENtUALLY relent to do case-studies
> inlue of the book. IMO I got more out of  reading and writing about
> actually cases of successful and unsuccessful management from real life
> than a 700 dollar book
>
> When people wonder why books get pirated. That's probably why.
>
>
>
> On Sat, Jul 4, 2020 at 6:03 PM Edward Angel  wrote:
>
> Yes. libgen is a mirror site for libgen.io <http://lingen.io> that has
> everything on it. It gets taken down every once in a while. They lost a
> suit from the publishers but being located in Eastern Europe that doesn’t
> help. When I first went to the site, it asked me to turn off my add blocker
> so THEY could make some money. Then I looked at their donation tab and the
> only way to donate was via bitcoin or an Eastern European credit card.
>
>
>
> Students tell me they all know about the site.
>
>
>
> Ed
>
> ___
>
>
> Ed Angel
>
> Founding Director, Art, Research, Technology and Science Laboratory
> (ARTS Lab)
> Professor Emeritus of Computer Science, University of New Mexico
>
> 1017 Sierra Pinon
>
> Santa Fe, NM 87501
> 505-984-0136 (home)   an...@cs.unm.edu
>
> 505-453-4944 (cell)  http://www.cs.unm.edu/~angel
>
>
>
> On Jul 4, 2020, at 5:58 PM, Roger Frye  wrote:
>
>
>
> Ed,
>
> FYI: The latest edition that I see on the Israeli version of the pirate
> site (libgen.is) is the 7th.
>
> -Roger
>
>
>
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> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
>

Re: [FRIAM] Illegal copies of your book

[Sarbajit Roy]

Dear Gillian

It's not an unpopular opinion at all.

The High Court at New Delhi, India considered these issues and said it's
perfectly legal for a teacher to PHOTOCOPY or REPRODUCE chapters of
over-priced/unaffordable/expensive foreign textbooks for the benefit of
their students, AND that no royalty is to be paid to the book publishers.
The exceptionally well reasoned decision was upheld by the Supreme Court of
India after the book publishers withdrew their appeals.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rameshwari_Photocopy_Service_shop_copyright_case

So if you know anybody needing photocopies (2 cents per page of expensive
books accessible to our vast library of PDFs and DJVUs, I would be happy to
have them as my student ;-)

Sarbajit Roy
New Delhi, India


On Sun, Jul 5, 2020 at 7:24 AM Gillian Densmore 
wrote:

> I'll put this out their as I suspect a unpopular opinion. It's be been my
> unfortunate experience teachers want ridiculously expensive specialty
> books. The most egregious was some prof for a management class that thought
> it'd be a good idea to drop 700 dollars on a book. Most of the class except
> some brown-noser agreed. He did EVENtUALLY relent to do case-studies
> inlue of the book. IMO I got more out of  reading and writing about
> actually cases of successful and unsuccessful management from real life
> than a 700 dollar book
> When people wonder why books get pirated. That's probably why.
>
> On Sat, Jul 4, 2020 at 6:03 PM Edward Angel  wrote:
>
>> Yes. libgen is a mirror site for libgen.io <http://lingen.io> that has
>> everything on it. It gets taken down every once in a while. They lost a
>> suit from the publishers but being located in Eastern Europe that doesn’t
>> help. When I first went to the site, it asked me to turn off my add blocker
>> so THEY could make some money. Then I looked at their donation tab and the
>> only way to donate was via bitcoin or an Eastern European credit card.
>>
>> Students tell me they all know about the site.
>>
>> Ed
>> ___
>>
>> Ed Angel
>>
>> Founding Director, Art, Research, Technology and Science Laboratory
>> (ARTS Lab)
>> Professor Emeritus of Computer Science, University of New Mexico
>>
>> 1017 Sierra Pinon
>> Santa Fe, NM 87501
>> 505-984-0136 (home)   an...@cs.unm.edu
>> 505-453-4944 (cell)  http://www.cs.unm.edu/~angel
>>
>> On Jul 4, 2020, at 5:58 PM, Roger Frye  wrote:
>>
>> Ed,
>> FYI: The latest edition that I see on the Israeli version of the pirate
>> site (libgen.is) is the 7th.
>> -Roger
>>
>>
>> -  . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-.  . .-. .
>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6  bit.ly/virtualfriam
>> un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>> archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
>>
> -  . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-.  . .-. .
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Re: [FRIAM] evaporative cooling

[Sarbajit Roy]

Hi
You need a psychometric chart for this. Here's one off the internet
https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Evaporative-Cooler-Process-on-Psychometric-Chart-where-e-Efficiency-in-percent-T-DBE_fig5_271288974

On Wed, May 20, 2020 at 2:10 AM Gary Schiltz 
wrote:

> No scientific results here, but some anecdotal experience from about 40
> years ago. I spent two summers in west Texas (near Wink, birthplace of Roy
> Orbison). I was a field tech on a project studying Desert Side-blotched
> Lizards. Temperatures were often over 110 F in the early afternoon, with
> humidity dropping to single digits. We all lived in small sheet metal-sided
> cabins with metal roofs (it was an abandoned Air National Guard base). With
> no cooling, the internal temperature would have been totally unbearable,
> but they had evaporative coolers. The air from them was quite chilly, at
> times I would have to turn mine off or put on a sweater. Of course, at
> night, the desert cooled substantially.
>
> On Tue, May 19, 2020 at 2:59 PM  wrote:
>
>> A technical question for you high-desert scientists:
>>
>>
>>
>> How far can one take evaporative cooling?  With dewpoint temperatures in
>> the teens, how far down can the output of a swamp cooler be.  This relates
>> to a question I asked you all in the dead of winter: given a dewpoint
>> temperature way below freezing, what is the warmest shade temperature at
>> which an icicle can form.
>>
>>
>>
>> This is the kind of question that a Massachusetts resident would never
>> think of, let alone ponder on.
>>
>> N
>>
>>
>>
>> Nicholas Thompson
>>
>> Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
>>
>> Clark University
>>
>> thompnicks...@gmail.com
>>
>> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -- --- .-. . .-.. --- -.-. -.- ... -..-. .- .-. . -..-. -  . -..-. .
>> ... ... . -. - .. .- .-.. -..-. .-- --- .-. -.- . .-. ...
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>>
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Re: [FRIAM] ill-conceived question

[Sarbajit Roy]

Its a variation on Parkinson's Law   (work expands to fill the time) ...
"Economies expand to keep their populations sedated"

On Sat, May 2, 2020 at 10:17 PM Frank Wimberly  wrote:

> Nick,
>
> I suspect that if people only did what they 'need to do' the economy would
> collapse.
>
> On Sat, May 2, 2020 at 10:34 AM  wrote:
>
>> Colleagues,
>>
>>
>>
>> I have asked this question before and nobody has responded (for clear and
>> good reasons, no doubt) but I thought I would ask it again.  What exactly
>> is this economy we are bent on reviving?  What exactly is the difference in
>> human activity between our present state and a revived economy.  We can go
>> to bars and concerts and football games?  Is that the economy we are
>> reviving?  It seems to me that the difference between a “healty” economy
>> and our present status consists possibly in nothing more than a lot of
>> people frantically rushing about doing things they don’t really need to
>> do?
>>
>>
>>
>> You recall that I invoked as a model that experiment in which 24 rats
>> were put in a quarter acre enclosure in Baltimore and fed and watered and
>> protected to see how the population would develop.  They never got above
>> two hundred.  Infant mortality, etc., was appalling.  Carnage.  In the same
>> space, a competent lab breeding organization could have kept a population
>> of tens of thousands.
>>
>>
>>
>> Don’t yell at me.  What fundamental proposition about economics do I not
>> understand?
>>
>>
>>
>> Nick
>>
>>
>>
>> Nicholas Thompson
>>
>> Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
>>
>> Clark University
>>
>> thompnicks...@gmail.com
>>
>> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> .-. .- -. -.. --- -- -..-. -.. --- - ... -..-. .- -. -.. -..-. -.. .- ...
>>  . ...
>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
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>>
>
>
> --
> Frank Wimberly
> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz
> Santa Fe, NM 87505
> 505 670-9918
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Re: [FRIAM] A longer response to Dave's question

[Sarbajit Roy]

That is, being able to figure
> out when your ideas are meaningless and when they contradict each other.
>
>
>
> -- How to make your ideas clear, 1878 ---
>
> To see what this principle leads to, consider in the light of it such a
> doctrine as that of transubstantiation. The Protestant churches generally
> hold that the elements of the sacrament are flesh and blood only in a
> tropical sense; they nourish our souls as meat and the juice of it would
> our bodies. But the Catholics maintain that they are literally just meat
> and blood; although they possess all the sensible qualities of wafercakes
> and diluted wine. But we can have no conception of wine except what may
> enter into a belief, either --
>
> 1. That this, that, or the other, is wine; or,
> 2. That wine possesses certain properties.
> Such beliefs are nothing but self-notifications that we should, upon
> occasion, act in regard to such things as we believe to be wine according
> to the qualities which we believe wine to possess. The occasion of such
> action would be some sensible perception, the motive of it to produce some
> sensible result. Thus our action has exclusive reference to what affects
> the senses, our habit has the same bearing as our action, our belief the
> same as our habit, our conception the same as our belief; and we can
> consequently mean nothing by wine but what has certain effects, direct or
> indirect, upon our senses; and to talk of something as having all the
> sensible characters of wine, yet being in reality blood, is senseless
> jargon. Now, it is not my object to pursue the theological question; and
> having used it as a logical example I drop it, without caring to anticipate
> the theologian's reply. I only desire to point out how impossible it is
> that we should have an idea in our minds which relates to anything but
> conceived sensible effects of things. Our idea of anything *is* our idea
> of its sensible effects; and if we fancy that we have any other we deceive
> ourselves, and mistake a mere sensation accompanying the thought for a part
> of the thought itself. It is absurd to say that thought has any meaning
> unrelated to its only function. It is foolish for Catholics and Protestants
> to fancy themselves in disagreement about the elements of the sacrament, if
> they agree in regard to all their sensible effects, here and hereafter.
>
> It appears, then, that the rule for attaining the third grade of clearness
> of apprehension is as follows: Consider what effects, that might
> conceivably have practical bearings, we conceive the object of our
> conception to have. Then, our conception of these effects is the whole of
> our conception of the object.
>
> 
>
>
>
> So, the first question is NOT "Did Jesus exist?" nor "Does wine transform
> into his blood." The first question is "What does it *mean*, practically
> speaking, to claim Jesus had existed?" and "What does it *mean, *practically
> speaking, for the wine to be transformed into blood?"  In both cases, by
> "practically speaking" I mean, "what consequences would it have for
> possible outcomes of our actions?" which could also be translated pretty
> reasonably to "what could a scientist investigate based on that claim".
> Nick is fond of asking questions like "If the wine *is *blood, can we use
> it for a transfusion?" Where as I, a bit more petulant, prefer questions
> like "Given that one can still get drunk off of communion wine, how far
> over the DUI limit must He have been at all times, and what implications
> does that have for the rest of His physiology?"
>
>
>
> After you have some idea what your ideas mean, Peirce has ideas about how
> we (in the very long run) find out which of your clear-ideas are true, but
> that is a separate conversation.
>
>
>
>
> ---
>
> Eric P. Charles, Ph.D.
> Department of Justice - Personnel Psychologist
>
> American University - Adjunct Instructor
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Feb 21, 2020 at 10:20 PM Sarbajit Roy  wrote:
>
> Nick
>
>
> 1. Since Christ has never been proved to have existed, it seems to me (as
> a non-psychologist) those consuming his 'blood' religiously appear as
> victims/participants of group mass delusions reinforced by their regular
> shared consumption of a narcotic in a controlled environment replete with
> symbols to reinforce their delusion.
>
>
>
> 2. Now to your more important question for us outside the USA.  "*Is
> Trump a proto-dictator?  What are the consequences in experience of
> believing that he is?  What does that belief cause us to expect in him. *"
>
>

Re: [FRIAM] A longer response to Dave's question

[Sarbajit Roy]

India.

Being afraid is a good thing. It heightens our senses, causes us to be
better prepared to react against threats (dictators) when they happen.
As of now our 2 mutual (respective ?) dictators are confabulating.

On Sat, Feb 22, 2020 at 10:23 AM  wrote:

> I suppose, as a behaviorist, I have to conclude that “being afraid” is a
> doing.  What else would you do?
>
>
>
> Are you afraid of dictators where you are?  Where ARE you, by the way.  I
> am guessing UK or India, but I don’t want to presume.
>
>
>
> Nick
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Nicholas Thompson
>
> Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
>
> Clark University
>
> thompnicks...@gmail.com
>
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Friam  *On Behalf Of *Sarbajit Roy
> *Sent:* Friday, February 21, 2020 9:39 PM
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
> friam@redfish.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] A longer response to Dave's question
>
>
>
> Hi Nick
>
>
>
> To reply to your question,
>
>
>
> a) I would not be living in the US if I could help it  In fact I have
> never come anywhere close to the USA for a variety of reasons.
>
> b) If I were living in the US I would be very scared of dictators
>
>
>
> Sarbajit
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, Feb 22, 2020 at 9:58 AM  wrote:
>
> Enclosing every elephant in the room is a larger, more hideous, elephant
> in the room.  It’s elephants-in-the-room all the way down.
>
>
>
> Sarbajit, human to human.  If you lived in the United States, what would
> you now be doing?
>
>
>
> N
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Nicholas Thompson
>
> Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
>
> Clark University
>
> thompnicks...@gmail.com
>
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Friam  *On Behalf Of *Sarbajit Roy
> *Sent:* Friday, February 21, 2020 8:20 PM
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
> friam@redfish.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] A longer response to Dave's question
>
>
>
> Nick
>
>
> 1. Since Christ has never been proved to have existed, it seems to me (as
> a non-psychologist) those consuming his 'blood' religiously appear as
> victims/participants of group mass delusions reinforced by their regular
> shared consumption of a narcotic in a controlled environment replete with
> symbols to reinforce their delusion.
>
>
>
> 2. Now to your more important question for us outside the USA.  "*Is
> Trump a proto-dictator?  What are the consequences in experience of
> believing that he is?  What does that belief cause us to expect in him. *"
>
> In my view, and in the *view of many non-Americans*
> <https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/20/opinion/taliban-afghanistan-war-haqqani.html>,
> it is the nation of USA collectively which is the tyrannical dictatorship,
> and it is quite irrelevant who heads it (symbolically), because all US
> Presidents carry on the same acts of raining bombs from the sky on those
> who disagree with US policies or the US' aforesaid mass delusion called
> Christianity.
>
>
>
> Sarbajit Roy
>
> Brahma University
>
>
>
> On Thu, Feb 20, 2020 at 10:31 PM  wrote:
>
> Geez, Dave,
>
>  There's an awful lot here.  Do you mean to take the hardest case?  A
> person?  And particularly a person who has been so much in all our faces
> that it's hard for most of us to think of him rationally, if at all?
>
>  Let's take a simpler example.  An example that Peirce takes is
> transubstantiation, the idea that in ritual of the mass the communion wine
> becomes the blood of Christ.  Once consecrated, is the communion "beverage"
> wine or blood?  Let's say we disagree on that point.  We both see that it's
> a red liquid in a chalice, on which basis we jump to different
> conclusions.  From the properties or redness and liquidness that the
> substance in the chalice shares with both blood and wine, you abduce that
> it is wine, I abduce that it is blood.  So far, we stand equal. But now the
> chalice is brought to our lips.  For me, (forgive me, Catholics, for I know
> not what I say) I feel momentarily cleansed of my sins, uplifted.  Since
> part of my conception of Christ's blood is that if I drank some of it I
> would feel cleansed and uplifted, I conclude that it is indeed, Christs'
> blood.  You, on the other hand, experience the flat, sour taste of
> inexpensive wine, feel no uplift whatsoever, and conclude that the chalice
> contains wine.  We are still on equal footing.
>
>  But now the science begins.  We whisk away the stuff in the chalice to
>

Re: [FRIAM] A longer response to Dave's question

[Sarbajit Roy]

Marcus,

Thanks for your info.

As a non-American, I ask - what happened to the USA's  "One nation under
God ?"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pledge_of_Allegiance

Sarbajit

On Sat, Feb 22, 2020 at 10:07 AM Marcus Daniels 
wrote:

> A Worldwide Independent Network/Gallup International Association poll in
> 2017 [1] found  that 39% of Americans are irreligious, and another study
> [2] estimates 26% are actually atheists.  Yes, the US does have long way to
> go to catch up with Sweden (73%) or the UK (69%) or Israel (58%).The
> targets of U.S. bombing are not in that category.
>
>
>
>   Yugoslavia 1999  (21% irreligious)
>
>   Yemen 2002, 2009, 2011  (
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irreligion_in_Yemen  -- death penalty)
>
>   Iraq 1991-2003, 2003-2015 (US/UK on regular basis)(34% irreligious)
>
>   Afghanistan 2001-2015 (
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irreligion_in_Afghanistan – death penalty)
>
>   Pakistan 2007-2015 (6%)
>
>   Somalia 2007-8, 2011 (2%)
>
>   Libya 2011, 2015 (
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discrimination_against_atheists -- death
> penalty)
>
>   Syria 2014-2015 (1%) https://areyouforsyria.weebly.com/
>
>
>
> [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_irreligion
>
> [2]
> https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/1948550617707015?journalCode=sppa
>
> *From: *Friam  on behalf of Sarbajit Roy <
> sroy...@gmail.com>
> *Reply-To: *The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
> friam@redfish.com>
> *Date: *Friday, February 21, 2020 at 7:20 PM
> *To: *The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
> friam@redfish.com>
> *Subject: *Re: [FRIAM] A longer response to Dave's question
>
>
>
> Nick
>
>
> 1. Since Christ has never been proved to have existed, it seems to me (as
> a non-psychologist) those consuming his 'blood' religiously appear as
> victims/participants of group mass delusions reinforced by their regular
> shared consumption of a narcotic in a controlled environment replete with
> symbols to reinforce their delusion.
>
>
>
> 2. Now to your more important question for us outside the USA.  "*Is
> Trump a proto-dictator?  What are the consequences in experience of
> believing that he is?  What does that belief cause us to expect in him. *"
>
> In my view, and in the *view of many non-Americans*
> <https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/20/opinion/taliban-afghanistan-war-haqqani.html>,
> it is the nation of USA collectively which is the tyrannical dictatorship,
> and it is quite irrelevant who heads it (symbolically), because all US
> Presidents carry on the same acts of raining bombs from the sky on those
> who disagree with US policies or the US' aforesaid mass delusion called
> Christianity.
>
>
>
> Sarbajit Roy
>
> Brahma University
>
>
>
> On Thu, Feb 20, 2020 at 10:31 PM  wrote:
>
> Geez, Dave,
>
>  There's an awful lot here.  Do you mean to take the hardest case?  A
> person?  And particularly a person who has been so much in all our faces
> that it's hard for most of us to think of him rationally, if at all?
>
>  Let's take a simpler example.  An example that Peirce takes is
> transubstantiation, the idea that in ritual of the mass the communion wine
> becomes the blood of Christ.  Once consecrated, is the communion "beverage"
> wine or blood?  Let's say we disagree on that point.  We both see that it's
> a red liquid in a chalice, on which basis we jump to different
> conclusions.  From the properties or redness and liquidness that the
> substance in the chalice shares with both blood and wine, you abduce that
> it is wine, I abduce that it is blood.  So far, we stand equal. But now the
> chalice is brought to our lips.  For me, (forgive me, Catholics, for I know
> not what I say) I feel momentarily cleansed of my sins, uplifted.  Since
> part of my conception of Christ's blood is that if I drank some of it I
> would feel cleansed and uplifted, I conclude that it is indeed, Christs'
> blood.  You, on the other hand, experience the flat, sour taste of
> inexpensive wine, feel no uplift whatsoever, and conclude that the chalice
> contains wine.  We are still on equal footing.
>
>  But now the science begins.  We whisk away the stuff in the chalice to
> the laboratory.  As a preliminary, each of us is asked to list in their
> entirety all the effects of our conception.  We are being asked to
> *deduce* from the categories to which we have *abduced*, the consequences
> of our abductions  They are numerous, but to simply the discussion, lets
> say each of us lists five.  I say, if it is Christ's blood, then I should
> feel transformed when drinking it, and then I paus

Re: [FRIAM] A longer response to Dave's question

[Sarbajit Roy]

Hi Nick

To reply to your question,

a) I would not be living in the US if I could help it  In fact I have never
come anywhere close to the USA for a variety of reasons.
b) If I were living in the US I would be very scared of dictators

Sarbajit



On Sat, Feb 22, 2020 at 9:58 AM  wrote:

> Enclosing every elephant in the room is a larger, more hideous, elephant
> in the room.  It’s elephants-in-the-room all the way down.
>
>
>
> Sarbajit, human to human.  If you lived in the United States, what would
> you now be doing?
>
>
>
> N
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Nicholas Thompson
>
> Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
>
> Clark University
>
> thompnicks...@gmail.com
>
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Friam  *On Behalf Of *Sarbajit Roy
> *Sent:* Friday, February 21, 2020 8:20 PM
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
> friam@redfish.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] A longer response to Dave's question
>
>
>
> Nick
>
>
> 1. Since Christ has never been proved to have existed, it seems to me (as
> a non-psychologist) those consuming his 'blood' religiously appear as
> victims/participants of group mass delusions reinforced by their regular
> shared consumption of a narcotic in a controlled environment replete with
> symbols to reinforce their delusion.
>
>
>
> 2. Now to your more important question for us outside the USA.  "*Is
> Trump a proto-dictator?  What are the consequences in experience of
> believing that he is?  What does that belief cause us to expect in him. *"
>
> In my view, and in the *view of many non-Americans*
> <https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/20/opinion/taliban-afghanistan-war-haqqani.html>,
> it is the nation of USA collectively which is the tyrannical dictatorship,
> and it is quite irrelevant who heads it (symbolically), because all US
> Presidents carry on the same acts of raining bombs from the sky on those
> who disagree with US policies or the US' aforesaid mass delusion called
> Christianity.
>
>
>
> Sarbajit Roy
>
> Brahma University
>
>
>
> On Thu, Feb 20, 2020 at 10:31 PM  wrote:
>
> Geez, Dave,
>
>  There's an awful lot here.  Do you mean to take the hardest case?  A
> person?  And particularly a person who has been so much in all our faces
> that it's hard for most of us to think of him rationally, if at all?
>
>  Let's take a simpler example.  An example that Peirce takes is
> transubstantiation, the idea that in ritual of the mass the communion wine
> becomes the blood of Christ.  Once consecrated, is the communion "beverage"
> wine or blood?  Let's say we disagree on that point.  We both see that it's
> a red liquid in a chalice, on which basis we jump to different
> conclusions.  From the properties or redness and liquidness that the
> substance in the chalice shares with both blood and wine, you abduce that
> it is wine, I abduce that it is blood.  So far, we stand equal. But now the
> chalice is brought to our lips.  For me, (forgive me, Catholics, for I know
> not what I say) I feel momentarily cleansed of my sins, uplifted.  Since
> part of my conception of Christ's blood is that if I drank some of it I
> would feel cleansed and uplifted, I conclude that it is indeed, Christs'
> blood.  You, on the other hand, experience the flat, sour taste of
> inexpensive wine, feel no uplift whatsoever, and conclude that the chalice
> contains wine.  We are still on equal footing.
>
>  But now the science begins.  We whisk away the stuff in the chalice to
> the laboratory.  As a preliminary, each of us is asked to list in their
> entirety all the effects of our conception.  We are being asked to
> *deduce* from the categories to which we have *abduced*, the consequences
> of our abductions  They are numerous, but to simply the discussion, lets
> say each of us lists five.  I say, if it is Christ's blood, then I should
> feel transformed when drinking it, and then I pause.  The scientists also
> pause, pencils in hand, and I have to go on.  Well, in addition to its
> red-liquidity,  I say, it should be slightly salty-sweet to taste, be thick
> on the tongue, curdle when heated, sustain life of somebody in need of a
> transfusion, etc.  So we do the tests, and the  results are yes, no, no,
> no, no.  The scientists now turn to you and you say, it should, as well as
> red and liquid, be sour, thin on the tongue, intoxicating in large amounts,
> produce a dark residue when heated, etc..  So, the tests come out yes, yes,
> yes, yes, yes.
>
>  So, is it really blood or really wine?  Well, that of course depends on
> one’s priorities.  If the sole criterion for a red fluid being 

Re: [FRIAM] A longer response to Dave's question

[Sarbajit Roy]

Nick

1. Since Christ has never been proved to have existed, it seems to me (as a
non-psychologist) those consuming his 'blood' religiously appear as
victims/participants of group mass delusions reinforced by their regular
shared consumption of a narcotic in a controlled environment replete with
symbols to reinforce their delusion.

2. Now to your more important question for us outside the USA.  "*Is Trump
a proto-dictator?  What are the consequences in experience of believing
that he is?  What does that belief cause us to expect in him. *"
In my view, and in the *view of many non-Americans*
<https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/20/opinion/taliban-afghanistan-war-haqqani.html>,
it is the nation of USA collectively which is the tyrannical dictatorship,
and it is quite irrelevant who heads it (symbolically), because all US
Presidents carry on the same acts of raining bombs from the sky on those
who disagree with US policies or the US' aforesaid mass delusion called
Christianity.

Sarbajit Roy
Brahma University

On Thu, Feb 20, 2020 at 10:31 PM  wrote:

> Geez, Dave,
>
>  There's an awful lot here.  Do you mean to take the hardest case?  A
> person?  And particularly a person who has been so much in all our faces
> that it's hard for most of us to think of him rationally, if at all?
>
>  Let's take a simpler example.  An example that Peirce takes is
> transubstantiation, the idea that in ritual of the mass the communion wine
> becomes the blood of Christ.  Once consecrated, is the communion "beverage"
> wine or blood?  Let's say we disagree on that point.  We both see that it's
> a red liquid in a chalice, on which basis we jump to different
> conclusions.  From the properties or redness and liquidness that the
> substance in the chalice shares with both blood and wine, you abduce that
> it is wine, I abduce that it is blood.  So far, we stand equal. But now the
> chalice is brought to our lips.  For me, (forgive me, Catholics, for I know
> not what I say) I feel momentarily cleansed of my sins, uplifted.  Since
> part of my conception of Christ's blood is that if I drank some of it I
> would feel cleansed and uplifted, I conclude that it is indeed, Christs'
> blood.  You, on the other hand, experience the flat, sour taste of
> inexpensive wine, feel no uplift whatsoever, and conclude that the chalice
> contains wine.  We are still on equal footing.
>
>  But now the science begins.  We whisk away the stuff in the chalice to
> the laboratory.  As a preliminary, each of us is asked to list in their
> entirety all the effects of our conception.  We are being asked to
> *deduce* from the categories to which we have *abduced*, the consequences
> of our abductions  They are numerous, but to simply the discussion, lets
> say each of us lists five.  I say, if it is Christ's blood, then I should
> feel transformed when drinking it, and then I pause.  The scientists also
> pause, pencils in hand, and I have to go on.  Well, in addition to its
> red-liquidity,  I say, it should be slightly salty-sweet to taste, be thick
> on the tongue, curdle when heated, sustain life of somebody in need of a
> transfusion, etc.  So we do the tests, and the  results are yes, no, no,
> no, no.  The scientists now turn to you and you say, it should, as well as
> red and liquid, be sour, thin on the tongue, intoxicating in large amounts,
> produce a dark residue when heated, etc..  So, the tests come out yes, yes,
> yes, yes, yes.
>
>  So, is it really blood or really wine?  Well, that of course depends on
> one’s priorities.  If the sole criterion for a red fluid being Christ’s
> blood is that it produces in one person, Nick Thompson, a sense of
> cleansing, then the fact that it doesn’t pass any of the other tests for
> blood will make no difference.  I can assert that that Christ’s blood is a
> very special sort of blood that cleanses the spirit of Nick Thompson, but
> does none of the other things that blood does.  Indeed, I might assert that
> anything the priest handed me in the chalice, once duly consecrated, would
> be Christ’s blood.   The idea that it “works for me” makes it “Christ’s
> blood for me and that’s all that matters.  And if I could bring a regiment
> of Spanish soldiers with spears to friam, and have them insist that you
> drink from the chalice and feel cleansed, many of you might begin to agree
> with me.
>
>  This is the view of pragmatism that James has been accused of, but it is
> definitely NOT the view that Peirce held.  If the position is, “whatever
> the officiant says is christs blood is christ’s blood by definition”, then,
> Piece would say the position is either
>
> Meaningless or false.  It might be meaningless, because there is no
> possible world in which it could be false.  Or it might be false, bec

Re: [FRIAM] Discussion Boards

[Sarbajit Roy]

AVOID proboards.com

They take down fora without any warning or reason under their infamous
clause 25(a) and they never ever restore a board, so all your work just
vanishes.

On Mon, Mar 12, 2018 at 8:28 AM, Nick Thompson 
wrote:

> Thanks, everybody.  I will look into all of these.  I used GG for several
> years, but they seemed to stop supporting it, and I am surprised to learn
> that it still exists.  Sounds like nobody has conquered the chronology
> problem.  I spent one entire month two years ago trying to write a macro in
> Word that would reorder posts in chronological order, but never succeeded.
> One of the worst impediments was my own practice of “larding” other
> people’s posts.
>
>
>
> Thanks again, everybody,
>
>
>
> Nick
>
>
>
> Nicholas S. Thompson
>
> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology
>
> Clark University
>
> http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/
>
>
>
> *From:* Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] *On Behalf Of *Gillian
> Densmore
> *Sent:* Sunday, March 11, 2018 7:32 PM
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
> friam@redfish.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Discussion Boards
>
>
>
> Hopefully it works out for you. As to forum software.I've also had hit and
> mis for that. As fellow regular joe  I found for just chatting about things
> Wordpress.com sometimes works really well  The cool thing about that is
> because it's free and you can try a bunch of different setups if something
> goes wrong, no worries!
>
> Google groups is kind of a mess and I didn't know it was still around to
> be honest.
>
> I've found FaceBooks groups work well. lol though I humoursly point out
> that also comes with all the weird stuff of facebook and you need to invite
> someone to get them started.
>
> It'll come down to what you like more though. Wordpress.com is free you
> instead of posting rants and raves (like I do one place) to it post stuff
> about what you've read
>
> Their's also goodreads. I simply don't know if you can still make a group
> their or not.
>
> Just some ideas from one everyday joe to another.
>
>
>
> On Sun, Mar 11, 2018 at 6:53 PM, Nick Thompson 
> wrote:
>
> Dear Colleagues,
>
>
>
> I am about to be exiled again to the Mosquito Infested Bog, this time for
> a whole six months.  In an effort to retain my sanity, I am thinking of
> starting an online reading group on Peirce or related topics with a view to
> future collaborative writing.   *Does anybody know of an internet
> discussion utility which faithfully preserves the ORDER of communication? * 
> This
> would mean at least that the most recent communications on each thread
> would  be at the bottom of the list.
>
>
>
> Thanks for any suggestions.
>
>
>
> Nick
>
>
>
> Nicholas S. Thompson
>
> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology
>
> Clark University
>
> http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/
>
>
>
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
>
>
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
>

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

Re: [FRIAM] Quick cross posting re:website maker sugestions

[Sarbajit Roy]

There are hierarchies for multi-user blogs.

For eg. would you want multiple users to be able to edit the same
article (like a wiki) ? Or do you want a single user to write "his"
article, which an administrator can edit / delete.

HTMLY (http://www.htmly.com) is light enough for the 2nd type of
blog.and simulates Wordpress well enough with minimal resources and no
databases, rendering well enough on (Android) mobiles

eg:
http://www.wikipediacritics.com/category/wikipedia-garbage-in-garbage-out

On 5/3/17, Gillian Densmore  wrote:
> Thanks for the question Glen ^_^
> I think what I have is this mental picture where somehow some people (or
> groups) somehow  write articles and worktogether with those. Someone might
> have say a reely cool story talking about how that other Densmore found
> beer on mars, or raving and geeking about some great coffee and beer he
> likes.
>
> I think I also want a way where if some(S) are want to work on a not quite
> ready to publish paper they can do that to where only them and the system
> sees it, and they can worktoegher on it. As concrete examples. They could
> well be a resident Uber Geek at NASA, or LANL and have some great story
> they're group can finally share about the deep space probe around orbiting
> Saturn, Or  espousing the wonders of Energy Theory.
>
> Those are I think some of the reasons  I I want to be easy and fun to use.
> And feel reely inspiring, cool and just a plain fun place to go to use.
>
> Writing articles or papers for me should come Complete with undue's oops
> and typos happen. Or you need to include pictures and vidoes to show what
> that group has.
>
>
> On Tue, May 2, 2017 at 1:10 PM, glen ☣  wrote:
>
>> It's not clear to me what you mean by "stuff".  Are you talking solely
>> about multiple people blogging to the same site?  Or are you talking
>> about
>> collaboration on text documents?  Or do you have in mind something
>> broader
>> ... like collaborative mind-mapping?
>>
>> Here's a list of some collaborative systems:
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_collaborative_software
>>
>> On 05/02/2017 11:55 AM, Gillian Densmore wrote:
>> > I'm trying my hand again at making a fun place for people to work
>> together on stuff.
>>
>> --
>> ☣ glen
>>
>> 
>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
>> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
>


FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

Re: [FRIAM] Trump Is Just A Normal Polling Error Behind Clinton | FiveThirtyEight

[Sarbajit Roy]

http://michaelmoore.com/trumpwillwin/

It seems that depressed economies imply we are going to have a rash of
fascism everywhere. Here's to World War III. Cheers.

On Tue, Nov 8, 2016 at 3:55 PM, Gary Schiltz 
wrote:

> Well put. This is not a game.
>
>
> On Tuesday, November 8, 2016, Marcus Daniels  wrote:
>
>> "The fact that world H and world D are such closely adjacent possibles is
>> what I am savoring (in the sense of morbid fascination) for roughly the
>> next 24-36 hours. "
>>
>> To first order, this isn't about the ideological aspirations of one
>> candidate vs. the other (or the completely irrelevant others).  It's about
>> choosing between a person who can and has managed in relevant
>> circumstances, and a man-child that obviously needs to be managed and who
>> obviously draws-from and amplifies the worst in people, has many indicators
>> of an authoritarian personality, and is a likely target for blackmail and
>> manipulation by foreign powers.   The potential upside of this non-contest
>> is that a thinker and policy wonk may sneak through as the winner by
>> default.  Even stranger is that it would be historic -- and somehow that is
>> almost a footnote.The whole thing is surreal and even scarier than
>> Brexit.
>>
>> Marcus
>>
>>

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Re: [FRIAM] Monitoring Data Usage

[Sarbajit Roy]

Hi Nick

I guess you want to identify the sites / processes on your Win-7 PC which
are hogging your bandwidth.

You will have to use the aptly named Win-7 "Task Manager" for this which is
accessed by pressing the "Ctrl-Alt-Del" keys simultaneously.

After "Starting the Task Manager", click the "Performance" button (on top),
this will give you access to the "Resource Monitor" button (bottom right
hand). Click.

Then click "Network" on top. 

Using this tool, I was able to establish (sufficiently for my own
intellectual satisfaction) that Google, in India, was secretly "stealing"
(or utilising) the bandwidth and drives of users with high-speed
connections for 'peering' which was making their services faster than their
competitors.

Sarbajit








On Tue, Aug 2, 2016 at 2:18 AM, Nick Thompson <nickthomp...@earthlink.net>
wrote:

> Owen,
>
>
>
> “Civilian,” it is.  How could I forget!  Dede is of course, right, in
> this, as in all matters.  Still, I would rather be a “civilian” than a
> “noob”.  Gosh.  What IS a noob?
>
>
>
> I am of the view that we are all civilians with respect to any software
> that we did not use yesterday, or perhaps the day before.  Each of us has
> SOME LITTLE THING to teach each of the others, about technology.   I, for
> instance, know about Elevated Mixed Layers.
>
>
>
> Take care, my friend.
>
>
>
> Nick
>
>
>
> Nicholas S. Thompson
>
> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology
>
> Clark University
>
> http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/
>
>
>
> *From:* Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] *On Behalf Of *Owen
> Densmore
> *Sent:* Monday, August 01, 2016 11:20 AM
>
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
> friam@redfish.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Monitoring Data Usage
>
>
>
> Civilian. And Dede convinced me to no longer use the term. It was a Silly
> Vally way to describe a noob. Or worse! :)
>
>
>
> On Mon, Aug 1, 2016 at 8:41 AM, Nick Thompson <nickthomp...@earthlink.net>
> wrote:
>
> Thanks, Joe,
>
>
>
> Yes.  HP Win7 PC, for my sins.
>
>
>
> There are a couple of things that may do it … Glasswire being the most
> promising.
>
>
>
> Being what Owen calls a “citizen”, I am very slow to download exe’s on
> spec.  Until I get desperate. I don’t like to be the first penguin off the
> floe.
>
>
>
> Nick
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Nicholas S. Thompson
>
> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology
>
> Clark University
>
> http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/
>
>
>
> *From:* Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] *On Behalf Of *Joe
> Spinden
> *Sent:* Monday, August 01, 2016 9:00 AM
>
>
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
> friam@redfish.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Monitoring Data Usage
>
>
>
> Nick,
>
> I assume you use a Windows system ? On a Mac you can look at the System
> Monitor to get information which seems to be what you are looking for.
> Perhaps others here can suggest a similar program on a Windows system.
>
> Joe
>
>
>
> On 7/31/16 11:34 PM, Nick Thompson wrote:
>
> Hi, Sarbajit,
>
>
>
> Thanks for the tip.  I studied on it for a bit and think it isn’t designed
> to do what I most need to have done.  It would tell me if my problem is,
> say, HP updates, or Firefox websites.  But, unless I am wrong, it won’t
> tell me which of the websites I am contacting is doing the dirty.  For
> instance, I spend a lot of time looking at animated radar displays?  They
> are only ten frames long, and don’t seem very “verbose”, how can I tell for
> sure..  Perhaps by logging my activities by hand and then using the time
> logging feature of Neworx I might figure it out.Ideally, the program I
> am looking for would give me the amount of data used up for each website
> contacted.  Given the rarity of the problem, the software probably doesn’t
> exist.
>
>
>
> Anyway, thanks for the suggestion.  I will explore it more closely
> tomorrow.
>
>
>
> Nick
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Nicholas S. Thompson
>
> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology
>
> Clark University
>
> http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/
>
>
>
> *From:* Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com
> <friam-boun...@redfish.com>] *On Behalf Of *Sarbajit Roy
> *Sent:* Sunday, July 31, 2016 10:35 PM
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
> <friam@redfish.com> <friam@redfish.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Monitoring Data U

Re: [FRIAM] Monitoring Data Usage

[Sarbajit Roy]

Try Networx
https://www.softperfect.com/products/networx/manual/

On Mon, Aug 1, 2016 at 6:55 AM, Nick Thompson 
wrote:

> Hi,
>
>
>
> You will recall that when I am in Massachusetts, I get all of my internet
> over a Verizon hotspot.  It a bit like eating lunch with a shark.  Every
> once in while you find out that you’re missing part of your arm.   So, I
> have been looking around on the web for an app which will tell me which one
> of my activities … podcasts, websites, upgrades, updates, etc. … is using
> up data.   Now, I figure, being pros, most of you, you all live in places
> that have unmetered broad band.  So I don’t expect many of you to share my
> problem.  But perhaps one of you has?  There are several apps that seem
> perhaps to be relevant.  One is “Glasswire”.  Is anybody familiar with it?
>
>
>
> I hope you are all summering well.
>
>
>
> Nick
>
>
>
> Nicholas S. Thompson
>
> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology
>
> Clark University
>
> http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/
>
>
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>

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Re: [FRIAM] Windows users: Uninstall Apple's QuickTime now - The Washington Post

[Sarbajit Roy]

The wise men at Encyclopedia Dramatica have it just right
excerpts:

QuickTime is a popular Virus often found on Mac OS X, but is commonly
mistaken as a media player brought to you by the lovely people from
Apple. Like plenty of other Apple software, it is offered to you free
of charge, but will consistently harass you to upgrade to a paid
version.
..
QuickTime for PC is in essence, a way for Apple to justify their own
claims that PC's are inferior by hijacking your format settings and
running useless crap in the background. Its footprint is so large that
even fast PC's are permanently bogged down. Even if you uninstall it,
the damage has already been done. The solution is to install QuickTime
Alternative instead of Apple's useless piece of shit for software.

https://encyclopediadramatica.se/Quicktime

On 4/17/16, Nick Thompson  wrote:
> Dear Wise People,
>
> According to this article, Quicktime is so out of date and so unsupported
> as
> to be a major security hazard.
>
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-switch/wp/2016/04/15/windows-users-u
> ninstall-apples-quicktime-now/?tid=pm_business_pop_b
>
> This article reminds me of an hysterical email I once received [and fell
> for] which commanded me to delete a certain file from my computer, only to
> discover that it was pretty much essential to the operation of the
> computer.
> The version of Quicktime I have on my computer was installed only two
> months
> ago?  Does Apple software really have such a short shelf life?
>
> Why bother to write malware, when you can just write blog post telling
> idiots like me to drive a spike through their computers, AND we will do it!
>
> What are we "citizens" to think?
>
> Nick


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Re: [FRIAM] Calculus for 9 year olds

[Sarbajit Roy]

Dear Nick

I firmly agree with John Kennison.

Develop their basic arithmetic, geometry and algebra at this age while
boosting their basic mental computational abilities (mental maths) .
Develop their foundations / concepts firmly. All this should be done
in a way so that it is not imposed on the child.

Calculus especially is a subject which the child has to be slowly
eased into and correlated to physical and biological phenomena. Some
non-US boards do this very well,eg. the IGCSE and the IB. Checkout
www.desertacademy.org in Santa Fe.

Sarbajit Roy
http://www.mathspro.in/

On 3/30/16, John Kennison <jkenni...@clarku.edu> wrote:
> Nick,
>
> Do NOT try to teach your 9 year old granddaughter calculus. Instead give her
> challenging problems that can be solved by elementary methods. If you try to
> teach her something she is not ready for, math will become a chore
> --possibly a chore for which she is greatly praised, but still a chore.
> Something bad happens when people see math as a chore. They try to memorize
> a lot of methods and go further than their understanding will normally take
> them. Doing math by memorizing without understanding is a dead end street.
>
> Many high schools, maybe most, now teach calculus and think they have taken
> a big step forward in their math education. But if they rush through algebra
> and geometry to do this, they have ruined their teaching of math. Instead of
> turning out people who understand algebra and geometry, they produce people
> who get by on memory. A Clark U., we have, for quite some time, required
> that students pass placement exams in algebra, geometry and trig before
> being admitted to Calculus. The first year we did this (in the 1980s) a
> student came to my office saying there was a serious mistake in his math
> placement because he was placed in remedial algebra when, in fact, he had
> already taken calculus and gotten an A in it, so was ready for second year
> calculus. I thought Clark had made a mistake, but, to be sure, I asked him
> some elementary algebra questions, such as to expand (x+1)^2  (IN THIS email
> I use ^2 for "2 in the exponent"
> when I talked to the student I simply wrote the 2 as a superscript.) The
> student produced x^2 + 4. When I suggested that this was incomplete, he
> seemd to feel that I was asking him an unfair question because that sort of
> math problem was what he had studied 4 years ago and it was unreasonable for
> me to expect him to remember things from a long ago. --I have heard similar
> stories from colleagues in other schools.
>
>
> Give her some simple word problems and allow her to solve them by trying out
> values. (Algebra teachers disallow this approach --for the seemingly good
> reason that it shortcircuits the learning of algebra) but trying out values
> allows the student to develop intuitions about how a problem works. Tell
> your granddaughter to make a note of any patterns she sees in the different
> numbers she tries. When she can detect patterns and express what they are
> coherently, that is the time to teach her algebraic notation.
>
> --John
> 


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Re: [FRIAM] A physics question

[Sarbajit Roy]

Check these study links too
http://www.physics.utoronto.ca/nonlinear/papers_icicles.html

On 11/18/15, Nick Thompson <nickthomp...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> That is such a great article.
>
> I loved the idea that a growing icicle is necessarily a hollow tube filled
> with water.
>
> Will change how I see them.
>
> N
>
> Nicholas S. Thompson
> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology
> Clark University
> http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Sarbajit Roy
> Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2015 11:02 PM
> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com>
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] A physics question
>
> Nice question. Probably needs more information though to answer for near
> some boundary conditions.
>
> http://www.igsoc.org:8080/journal/34/116/igs_journal_vol34_issue116_pg64-70.
> pdf
>
> "ABSTRACT : A theory of icicle growth is presented. ... A time-dependent
> computer model based on the theory shows that the growth of an icicle is a
> complicated process, which is very sensitive to the atmospheric conditions
> and water flux"
>
> I'm crossposting your query to some physics experts at
> http://www.physicstutordelhi.in to ask students as a test question
>
> On 11/18/15, Nick Thompson <nickthomp...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>> Chiefly for the Church Fathers of the Santa Fe Mother Church:
>>
>> Can one grow an icicle off the sunny side of a building if the air
>> temperature is above freezing?
>>
>> Nick
>>
>> Nicholas S. Thompson
>>
>> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology
>>
>> Clark University
>>
>> http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/
>>
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe
> http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>
>
> 
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>


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Re: [FRIAM] A physics question

[Sarbajit Roy]

Nice question. Probably needs more information though to answer for
near some boundary conditions.

http://www.igsoc.org:8080/journal/34/116/igs_journal_vol34_issue116_pg64-70.pdf

"ABSTRACT : A theory of icicle growth is presented. ... A
time-dependent computer model based on the theory shows that the
growth of an icicle is a complicated process, which is very sensitive
to the atmospheric conditions and water flux"

I'm crossposting your query to some physics experts at
http://www.physicstutordelhi.in to ask students as a test question

On 11/18/15, Nick Thompson  wrote:
> Chiefly for the Church Fathers of the Santa Fe Mother Church:
>
> Can one grow an icicle off the sunny side of a building if the air
> temperature is above freezing?
>
> Nick
>
> Nicholas S. Thompson
>
> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology
>
> Clark University
>
> http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/
>


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Re: [FRIAM] if you use google

[Sarbajit Roy]

Try this

http://www.google.com/custom

Sarbajit

On 10/29/15, Gillian Densmore  wrote:
> Some of you that use google might find this handy
>
> http://www.ghacks.net/2015/10/27/google-http-search-yes-it-is-still-possible/
>
>
> recently google.com started to redirect to https causing breakage
>
> Amusingly both opera and firefox (sort of) work better for googles own
> search engine sometimes to
>


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Re: [FRIAM] Hosting Service

[Sarbajit Roy]

https://www.openshift.com/

On 9/29/15, glen ep ropella  wrote:
> These guys have a cheap option:
>
>http://directspace.net/services/virtual/ovzfeatures.php
>
> I have the $4/month one and it works well enough.
>
> On 09/28/2015 11:57 AM, Owen Densmore wrote:
>> The hosting service for backspaces.net  literally
>> closed up shop and disappeared w/o warning or access to data!
>>
>> So I'm looking for a reasonable hosting service with ssh access and modest
>> hacking capabilities .. bash, *nix commands, possibly node.js, as well as
>> a reasonable "dashboard" .. like CPanel or similar for installing
>> packages.
>>
>> I'll probably use this as a way to toss hosted wordpress and media wiki
>> and just use much simpler blog/wiki web services.
>
>
> --
> glen ep ropella -- 971-255-2847
>
> 
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>


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Re: [FRIAM] Optimizing cell phone plans...

[Sarbajit Roy]

My own data plan in India gives me 2GB+unlimited Facebook/Twitter/Whatsapp.
It costs me about US$2 per month. The provider also gives free access
to many websites
using Facebook's internet.org, but there is a huge uproar here
because people say it violates something called net neutrality

Sarbajit Roy

On 4/23/15, Steve Smith sasm...@swcp.com wrote:
 Even though I secretly snicker when well-funded folks here worry about
 the last nickel on their cell phone plans, I just got skooled by ATT
 on this topic.

 I normally run a 1GB family share plan over 2 phones and pay a
 whopping $120/month for this.  My wife hardly uses HER phone at all and
 my use can be sporadic (days without a call or txt) since we don't get
 coverage at our house.   I've dabbled with other options, the closest to
 a good deal being prepaid plans from T-mobile but their data coverage
 out of town seems weak (i.e.  while I'm traveling where I use it as a
 hotspot for my computer).   A prepaid plan at $2/day for unlimited
 everything comes out to about $120 for two phones if used every day.
 Neither my wife nor I has the patience or willpower to leave our phones
 off for days at a time and all it takes is a single incoming txt message
 to trigger that day's charges... so on average we could do a little
 better, but probably not much.

 I just checked my current data usage since when traveling I can rack up
 2-3 GB overages (@$20/GB) easily.  In the process I discovered that
 their 3GB family share plan quoted at $90/month.  Of *course* the
 prices are going down and the services are going up to be competitive,
 and of *course* ATT wasn't going to tell me that automatically.

 I *think* I just saved $30/month on my basic plan and put myself close
 if not entirely under the data limit when on the road...  and if I
 thought I needed 6GB regularly, I could now have *that* for the original
 $120.

 So, I guess I understand why some here revisit their cell plans
 regularly in what I previously felt was a bit of first world
 hand-wringing.  I've probably forked over a few hundred dollars to ATT
 in the last year or so, unnecessarily?

 - Steve

 
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Re: [FRIAM] Google's Graveyard

[Sarbajit Roy]

Google's products are highly intrusive. Whenever I use them I feel as
though I'm a lab rat in somebody's experiment.
http://www.google.com/policies/privacy/

On 2/5/15, Owen Densmore o...@backspaces.net wrote:
 It's only fair to say the google ecology is converging to some degree and
 is pretty useful.  I did find the fail of their RSS reader problematic.

 OTOH: I find myself unwilling to rely on several of their products,
 preferring others that I think will last. Dropbox, for example for sync'ed
 storage rather than Google Drive.  I guess I find Google schizophrenic.

 Apple has a similar issue, but based on failures of the past rather than
 simply dropping services.  My guess iCloud will work, after the failures of
 their prior attempts.  But I won't rely on it.

-- Owen



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Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: Rohinni's Lightpaper Is Incredibly Thin, And Printable

[Sarbajit Roy]

Invisibility cloak ?

Sarbajit

On 11/23/14, Owen Densmore o...@backspaces.net wrote:
 Pretty impressive:
 ​​
 http://www.fastcolabs.com/3038890/rohinnis-lightpaper-is-incredibly-thin-and-printable

 ​From the article:

 How would you use light if it was paper-thin and could be applied to any
 surface anywhere? When Rohinni http://rohinni.com/ CMO Nick Smoot
 http://www.fastcompany.com/person/nick-smoot asked me that question, I
 was pretty stumped at first.


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Re: [FRIAM] second computer issue

[Sarbajit Roy]

Hi,

Whats your firefox version, and what OS do you run ? Then plugins and
add-ons may be your culprit

FF is notorious for memory leaks and some versions are particularly
memory hogs.

https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/firefox-uses-too-much-memory-ram
https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/questions/998289

Try and use the FF ESR versions instead of the latest version they
keep upgrading you to.

Switch to Seamonkey which doesn't seem to have these memory issues.

Sarbajit Roy

On 10/4/14, Gillian Densmore gil.densm...@gmail.com wrote:
 Greetings Russ, thanks for the  quick response!
 It's a 9y Del Inspiron, I had ordered with 8 gigs I wouldn't be surprised
 if the root of the problems are it having feet issues.



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Re: [FRIAM] bootable backup of windows?

[Sarbajit Roy]

RUFUS
http://rufus.akeo.ie/

On 10/4/14, Gillian Densmore gil.densm...@gmail.com wrote:
 Greetings!
 Anyone have recommendations of software that can make a bootable windows
 backup? I'm looking for one that can do so to a USB Drive-
 Like is there something like OmniDisk or Diskutility from Mac land?



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Re: [FRIAM] SEO

[Sarbajit Roy]

Hi Owen

Google is cracking down on blackhat SEO.
Several things are wrong about this website, starting from its spammy name.
Nothing that can't be fixed easily - and CHEAPLY.

PS: here are the website's key phrases

3 Word PhrasesCount Density
more about our   2   1.81%
415 788 8867 2   1.81%
call us at   2   1.81%
the north bay2  1.81%

Sarbajit
(New Delhi, India)

On 3/20/14, Owen Densmore o...@backspaces.net wrote:
 Oops, forgot to include the startup's site:
 http://sanfranciscotutoringservice.com/

-- Owen

 On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 9:25 PM, Owen Densmore o...@backspaces.net wrote:

 Do any of us have pointers for good Search Engine Optimization?
 Especially
 a professional outfit that is beyond the norm (which is close to spam!)

  A friend in Silicon Valley has started a business and is looking for
 help.

-- Owen




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Re: [FRIAM] More on Spam

[Sarbajit Roy]

Nick

At the cost of privacy.

If you can use either POP or IMAP to access your emails on earthlink, try
accessing them through a Gmail account and allow Gmail's spam filters
to do their magic

Just make sure though to setup Gmail to leave all messages on
earthlink. In fact if you let Gmail loose for an 1 hour or so, you'll
soon have a complete backup of your earthlink email inbox as a bonus.

Sarbajit

On 3/6/14, Nick Thompson nickthomp...@earthlink.net wrote:
 To any of you who are in an Advice-Giving Mood,

 So, as I said, my Spam has tripled in the last few weeks.  I have been
 assiduously accumulating spam messages I a folder and am now wondering if
 there is anything I can do with them.  One obvious thing I might do is
 click
 on the link that says, Please don't send me any more messages like this.
 But, of course, I have been told to NEVER click on any link in a message I
 suspect for any reason.  So, then I look the organization up on the web,
 thinking that if the have a website that Earthlink's WebAdvisor doesn't
 hate, maybe I am safe to click the opt out link, but that takes a time,
 and,
 of course, the web message could always be a spoof.  So, then I am back to
 doing nothing.



 Anybody got better than nothing as a strategy?



 Nick







 Nicholas S. Thompson

 Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

 Clark University

 http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/






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Re: [FRIAM] FPI 210

[Sarbajit Roy]

I have an alternate take on this.

Although I don't publicise this much, I'm presently the National
Convenor of the India Against Corruption movement (the apolitical
part of India's Occupy movement after it split in Nov 2012).

We see definite evidence of global military-industrial-financial
cartels and Govts (primarily the USA) which are fanning and actively
financing such revolutions / protests on a massive scale. These
protests are not indigenous but are externally created, and more than
food its probably oil/energy and water pricing which are equally
drivers / targets, coupled with a shortage of tillable land and farm
labour prepared to work.

Sarbajit Roy

On 2/22/14, glen e. p. ropella g...@tempusdictum.com wrote:
 A Mathematical Formula Predicted Today's Worldwide Protests Over a Year Ago
 http://www.policymic.com/articles/82855/a-mathematical-formula-predicted-today-s-worldwide-protests-over-a-year-ago

 From Ukraine and Venezuela to Thailand and Syria, revolutions, protests
 and unrest are sweeping the globe. Are we just living in crazy times
 when everyone's angry at the same time, or is there more than meets the eye?

 While each situation has its own complexities and particulars, complex
 systems theorists at the New England Complex Systems Institute
 hypothesized that the continuing rise of high global food prices could
 lead to uprisings around the globe. Over a year ago, Yaneer Bar-Yam of
 the NECSI published a paper that charted the rise of the FAO food price
 index -- a UN measure that maps food costs over time -- and saw that
 whenever that figure rose above 210, riots broke out around the world.
 The hypothesis held true for 2008's economic collapse and 2011's
 Tunisian protests. After Bay-Yam built the model, he was able to predict
 the Arab Spring just weeks before it happened, and now the numbers are
 checking out for 2013, the year with the third highest food prices on
 record.

 --
 glen ep ropella -- 971-255-2847


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Re: [FRIAM] disk cloning?

[Sarbajit Roy]

Try Norton Ghost. Its free.

On 12/29/13, Gillian Densmore gil.densm...@gmail.com wrote:
 Greetings fellow technomancers,
 After trying ease to do backup and shadow copy clone for window
 both seem to take ages and n quite a complete backup I wonder if anyone
 hasexprience with backing up a windows hard drive.



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Re: [FRIAM] Wix

[Sarbajit Roy]

I had a similar situation. I was recently advising some whistleblowing
academic researchers in India's leading management institute who were
pulling the chain on massive plagiarism and sexual harassment etc. and
needed a online platform

We considered Wix, rejected it as too bloated, non-SEO friendly and overly
graphic oriented.

It was a choice between a CMS like Wordpress and Drupal. Finally we opted
for Drupal. The way we did it was like this.

Got them a free Openshift account on Rhcloud. (Its cloud hosted on
Amazonaws). Installed Drupal with a single click. They also have 1-click
Wordpress, Joomla, Jenkins and all that stuff,
Result.
http://ernet-iima.rhcloud.com

Then I booked (they are whistleblowers wanting to stay anonymopus) a domain
for them and used CNAME etc redirects.
Result
http://iimahd-ernet.in/

Which essentially is a portal for the offending insititute's portal
http://iimahd.ernet.in/

Drupal allows, multiuser blogs, multi-user multiple forums etc and great
fluid/responsive themes which display well across desktops to tablets to
moibile devices. (Drupal has a learning curve).

Sarbajit



On Fri, Nov 8, 2013 at 9:52 PM, Owen Densmore o...@backspaces.net wrote:

 TL;DR: Anyone use Wix? How does it compare to WordPress and other CMSs?
 Seems nice.

 I'm helping a non-techie group to build a website.

 My first advice was to organize themselves around a workflow with Google
 or equivalent (groups, docs, chat/hangout, calendar and so on) and some
 other sage advice about public services (like the several blog/site
 services and storage like dropbox/google drive.)

 But the obvious question about Content Management Systems (drupal,
 wordpress, wikis) came up. This particular site would likely be just fine
 with WordPress I think .. especially seeing that it was good enough for the
 Santa Fe Complex.

 But then Wix was mentioned .. and I'd never heard of it!  It looks
 interesting.

 Have any of us used it? Is Wix a wise choice for a website?

-- Owen

 
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Re: [FRIAM] TLS encryption [was gmail forums exploded]

[Sarbajit Roy]

try
https:  //   ecomail   DOT   at

On 8/17/13, Marcus G. Daniels mar...@snoutfarm.com wrote:
 On 8/16/13 9:13 PM, Sarbajit Roy wrote:
 I switched to an  IMAP client (T-Bird) 3 days ago when their latest
 nonsense started.
 Speaking of e-mail providers, I've noticed that a some of my providers
 don't provide TLS encryption.
 Can anyone suggest one that passes http://www.checktls.com/?



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Re: [FRIAM] gmail forums exploded

[Sarbajit Roy]

Thanks for the link
I switched to an  IMAP client (T-Bird) 3 days ago when their latest 
nonsense started.


Gillian Densmore wrote:

The new gmail in box, compose, and forcing hang outs on you has caused
lots of threads like
productforums.google.com/forum/#!topic/gmail/yl_XPO5Hw6Y[726-750-false] 
http://productforums.google.com/forum/#%21topic/gmail/yl_XPO5Hw6Y%5B726-750-false%5D


with wonderfully succinct feedback as:
It's junk,
It fucking sucks
It's horible horse shit-how do I change to classic.

And more





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Re: [FRIAM] digital ethics

[Sarbajit Roy]

Seconded.

If a resource is available it ought to  be availed of. Its upto the
copyright holder to protect his work (and royalty stream).

I'm trying to put together a Pirate Party in India for this.

Sarbajit


On Fri, Apr 19, 2013 at 2:51 AM, Stephen Guerin
stephen.gue...@redfish.comwrote:

 What about independent researchers not associated with a library
 system trying to browse academic papers (funded by taxpayers) held
 behind academic journal paywalls for $35/copy?

 -S
 --- -. .   ..-. .. ...    - .-- ---   ..-. .. ... 
 stephen.gue...@redfish.com
 1600 Lena St #D1, Santa Fe, NM 87505
 office: (505) 995-0206 tollfree: (888) 414-3855
 mobile: (505) 577-5828  fax: (505) 819-5952
 tw: @redfishgroup  skype: redfishgroup  gvoice: (505) 216-6226
 redfish.com  |  simtable.com


 On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 3:14 PM, Edward Angel an...@cs.unm.edu wrote:
  Owen,
 
  As you know, I've never had any real objection to  your position and I
 agree
  as to the lack of a reasonable modern distribution system. I do get upset
  when the conversation approaches the I think the price is too high so
 I'm
  justified in making an illegal copy.
 
  Ed
  __
 
  Ed Angel
 
  Founding Director, Art, Research, Technology and Science Laboratory (ARTS
  Lab)
  Professor Emeritus of Computer Science, University of New Mexico
 
  1017 Sierra Pinon
  Santa Fe, NM 87501
  505-984-0136 (home)   an...@cs.unm.edu
  505-453-4944 (cell)  http://www.cs.unm.edu/~angel
 
 
  On Apr 18, 2013, at 2:30 PM, Owen Densmore wrote:
 
  I too have had to build an ethics, so to speak.
 
  Books: For quite a while, I simply downloaded books to see if I wanted to
  buy them.  I deleted the download and purchased the book if I liked the
  download.  Also download books if I have the paper version.
 
  EBooks: Similar. Then came the problem of formats.  For example, Amazon
 only
  provides kindle format (.mobi/.azw) while tech books provide three
 formats
  (.pdf, .mobi, .epub).  I found myself downloading pdf versions of .azw's
  because the silly books referred to pages.  Hopefully Az will finally
 come
  around, but until they do, and the book is not available in multiple
  formats, I'll download a pdf if need be.  Almost all tech books are
 ebooks
  and on my iPad.
 
  Video: I downloaded old TV shows which were not available otherwise.
  Also,
  our net was DSL, so too slow for streaming, even youtube!  With a new
 faster
  network, cable, we're looking at Amazon primarily, and have Az Prime so
 many
  videos are available free.  We also have NetFlix streaming but don't
 seem to
  use it.  We stopped NetFlix DVDs when they hit a 30% failure rate. Not
 sure
  about Hulu, don't use it now.  We record, TiVo, a LOT of sports and
 cooking
  shows and re-runs on SciFi channel.
 
  Papers/Magazines: Thus far I have not payed for NYTimes.  They let me
 read N
  a month, and I believe allow click-throughs to not count against the N.
  But
  I admit to defeating their count by going incognito in Chrome at times,
  maybe once a month.  I've also found that much of their stuff finds
 itself
  elsewhere.
 
  I believe a digital library solution would be helpful for paying for a
 lot
  of media.  I'd gladly pay $D dollars for N subscriptions .. a book
 shelf
  like OReilly's Safari .. but much broader.
 
  So I'm sorta in the middle, but mainly due to the media industries not
  catching up.  Between Az Prime and buying ebooks, I'm easily at
 $250/year
  .. yipes!  My guess is that the big TV companies will try one way or
 another
  to make older shows available, but I don't think they've done it  yet.
  Az
  doesn't offer pdf's yet but I'm sure they'll both improve their page
  references etc, and go multiformat sometime.
 
 -- Owen
 
 
  On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 1:42 PM, Edward Angel an...@cs.unm.edu wrote:
 
  From an author's perspective:
 
  1. By downloading a pirated copy, you lower the number of books a
 library
  will purchase which does cost the author.
  2. Having a permanent copy has some value over a library book for many
  people.
 
  Ed
  __
 
  Ed Angel
 
  Founding Director, Art, Research, Technology and Science Laboratory
 (ARTS
  Lab)
  Professor Emeritus of Computer Science, University of New Mexico
 
  1017 Sierra Pinon
  Santa Fe, NM 87501
  505-984-0136 (home)   an...@cs.unm.edu
  505-453-4944 (cell)  http://www.cs.unm.edu/~angel
 
 
  On Apr 18, 2013, at 1:19 PM, Arlo Barnes wrote:
 
  But it sounds like it is out of your price range, at least for now. The
  author (nor the publisher) gets no money from you checking the book out
 of
  the library, so what are they losing from you pirating the book? Not
 that I
  am suggesting that is what you should do - it is an individual decision,
  after all - but I always find it interesting what people consider their
  'boundary' and why.
  -Arlo James Barnes
  
  FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
  Meets Fridays 

Re: [FRIAM] Systems, State, Recursion, Iteration.

[Sarbajit Roy]

Dear Russ

I've read your paper on *how the Fed can fix the economy:

*You've programed the states of the economy and frozen the Fed's response
in turns of those states like traffic lights. It reminds me of classical
control theory - pure and immediate Proportional control to control a
single variable. Are there any Is and Ds which are time/rate dependent
or is that left up to the Fed?
**
On Sun, Apr 14, 2013 at 9:33 AM, Russ Abbott russ.abb...@gmail.com wrote:

 Never beaten over the head with “hypothetical construct” or “intervening
 variable”. My notion of state is basic theoretical computer science. How
 an automaton (a formally defined mechanism such as a Turing Machine, Finite
 Automaton, etc.) reacts to its input depends on its state. This isn't
 intended to be particularly sophisticated. It's just a technique used when
 specifying how things interact with their environments.

 When a traffic light that controls a crosswalk is in the green state (in
 your direction) and you press the cross button, it ignores that input. When
 it's in its red state (in your direction) and you press the cross button, it
 starts counting down to turning green. How long the countdown will be
 depends on another element of its state: how much time has passed since the
 most recent green.


 *-- Russ Abbott*
 *_*
 ***  Professor, Computer Science*
 *  California State University, Los Angeles*

 *  My paper on how the Fed can fix the economy: ssrn.com/abstract=1977688*
 *  Google voice: 747-*999-5105
   Google+: plus.google.com/114865618166480775623/
 *  vita:  *sites.google.com/site/russabbott/
   CS Wiki http://cs.calstatela.edu/wiki/ and the courses I teach
 *_*


 On Sat, Apr 13, 2013 at 8:48 PM, Nicholas Thompson 
 nickthomp...@earthlink.net wrote:

 Thanks, Steve.  Will ponder all of this.  Nick 

 ** **

 *From:* Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] *On Behalf Of *Steve
 Smith
 *Sent:* Saturday, April 13, 2013 8:47 PM

 *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
 *Subject:* [FRIAM] Systems, State, Recursion, Iteration.

 ** **

 Nick -

 It would be difficult to explain this (Marcus' definition of iteration vs
 recursion) to you without teaching you several key computer science
 concepts which are not necessarily difficult but are very *specific*.

 The first step would be to answer your question of days ago about what a
 System is.   Physicists define System the same way Biologists (or even
 Social Scientists) do, just using different components and processes.   It
 involves the relationship between the thing itself (a subset of the
 universe) and a model that represents it.

 Therein lies two lossy compressions:  1) Reductionism is at best a
 convenient approximation... no subset or subsystem is completely isolated
 (unless perhaps somehow what is inside a black hole is isolated from what
 is outside, but that might be an uninteresting, degenerate case?);  2) The
 model is not the thing...   we've been all over this, right?  Another lossy
 compression/projection of reality. oh and a *third*; 3) We can only measure
 these quantities to some degree of precision.

 In a system, a simultaneous measure every quantity of every aspect of the
 system is it's state.  In practice, we can only measure some of the
 quantities to some precision of some of the aspects, and in fact, that is
 pretty much what modeling is about... choosing that subset according to
 various limited qualities such as what we *can* measure  and with what
 level of precision and with a goal in mind of answering specific questions
 with said model.

 At this point, we are confronted with what means State?

 Your preference for Analytical Output vs State I think reflects your
 attempt to think in terms of the implementation of a model (in a computer
 program, or human executed logic/algorithm).  The problems with Analytical
 Output in this context arise from both Analytical and Output.
 Analytical implies that the only or main value of the state is to do
 analysis on it.  In Marcus example, it's main use is to feed it right back
 into an iterated model... no human may ever look at this state.  Output
 suggests (also) that the state is visible *outside* the system.   While
 (for analytical purposes) we might choose to capture a snapshot of the
 state, it is not an output, it is just the STATE of the system (see
 above).

 Marcus point was that in a recursive *program* (roughly a deterministic
 implementation rooted in formal symbol processing, of a model of some
 system), the system is nominally subdivided into physical or logical
 subsets or subsystems and executed *recursively* (to wit, by subdividing
 again until an answer can be obtained without further subdivision).  In an
 iterative *program*, the entire (sub) system model is executed with initial
 conditions (state) one time, then the resulting state of that iteration is
 used as the 

Re: [FRIAM] perplexed by netflix

[Sarbajit Roy]

Dear Bruce

If you liked 3 Idiots, you may enjoy its even better prequel - Munna Bhai
MBBS.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0374887/

Sarbajit

On Tue, Apr 2, 2013 at 1:10 AM, Bruce Sherwood bruce.sherw...@gmail.comwrote:

 Despite all this, we experience a very low fraction of unreadable DVDs
 from Netflix. Presumably DVD players vary in their ability to deal with
 flaws. Also, more and more we along with everyone else streams when
 possible, so the DVDs we order are often the less popular kind and so have
 not had a lot of use.

 An example I'll recommend is the superb 3 Idiots, a fairly recent film
 from India that is just wonderful along many dimensions. Read the
 description somewhere. I've heard it's being remade in many countries
 including the US (the original is in Hindi with much admixture of English,
 but with excellent subtitles). It includes two of India's biggest stars,
 and they're terrific.

 Bruce


 On Mon, Apr 1, 2013 at 12:13 PM, Steve Smith sasm...@swcp.com wrote:


  One thing to consider is that as time goes on, the disc population
 'ages' - probably discs are only replaced when they are completely broken,
 or enough people complain.
 -Arlo James Barnes

  I think there may be a little more going on than this.  It feels like a
 soft tragedy of the commons.

 Disc-based Netflix is going on at least 8 years old now, it seems
 unlikely that the halflife of discs being shipped around and handled by
 random people is more than months, rather than years.

 I think the *only* way discs get retired is if they are reported
 nonfunctional by a customer.   I don't think there is anything more than
 casual inspection happening at the remailing centers (our closest may be
 ABQ?).

 It seems likely that something more subtle (or blunt?) is going on.
 Perhaps many people are depending mostly on streaming movies (as we are)
 and many may not bother to report a bad disc and simply return it in
 frustration.  A positive feedback loop could emerge with the more bad discs
 they find, the more likely they will just send the movie back without
 watching.

 Another aggravator may be if the remailing centers have changed their
 inspection and possible automatic cleaning policy.  I would imagine that
 they might have a process for very simply cleaning the DVDs when they come
 in or before they ship out.

 It seems likely that the tragedy of the commons may be a hard one to
 resolve.

 - Steve

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Re: [FRIAM] A new kind of pfishing?

[Sarbajit Roy]

Hi Steve

I must mention that these scamsters target victims aged 50+ presumably with
little knowledge of computers and under-informed of human psychology.
Probably picked the wrong bunch at FRIAM :-).

Doug (from what I observe) takes care of himself very well. I'll ask my
friends to devise a special scam for him involving peacocks and an Android
app.

Sarbajit

On Sat, Mar 16, 2013 at 6:26 AM, Steve Smith sasm...@swcp.com wrote:

  Sarbajit -

 And here we thought it was you!

 Pranking Nick is just mean, but maybe you could give Doug a ring and tell
 him you can fix his Bluetooth/WiFi problem if he just gives you his credit
 card and bank account numbers and the keys to his BMW Motorcycle...

 We could all have a party and help you spend out his accounts ordering
 stuff online...  Do you think he's gullible enough?

 - Steve


  This scam has been around for years

 http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jul/18/phone-scam-india-call-centres


  On Sat, Mar 16, 2013 at 1:33 AM, Douglas Roberts d...@parrot-farm.netwrote:

 I've gotten a few of those over the past few days from similarly accented
 people trying to tell me that my Windows machine was infected with a virus,
 but the callers' numbers were blocked.

  No, I didn't bother to Linuxize them, although that would have been fun.

  --Doug


  On Fri, Mar 15, 2013 at 1:55 PM, Nicholas Thompson 
 nickthomp...@earthlink.net wrote:

   Can anybody confirm this as a new form of pfishing?



 I got a call from a number in DC today, somebody with a strong Indian
 sub-continent accident, telling me that my computer was sending error
 messages to the network and offering to help me correct them.  (I have the
 number in my phone trap, and would report it if I knew where to report it
 to.)  The next step involved my going on my computer and connect it to
 them, I assume.   These guys were pretty bad at what they were doing,, but
 I can imagine a more subtle line that I might have fallen for.



 Does anybody recognize this?



 N



 Nicholas S. Thompson

 Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

 Clark University

 http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

 http://www.cusf.org





  
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  --
  *Doug Roberts
 d...@parrot-farm.net*
 *http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins*http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins
 *
 505-455-7333 - Office
 505-672-8213 - Mobile*

 
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Re: [FRIAM] A new kind of pfishing?

[Sarbajit Roy]

Would that be Vice Admiral George Nanos of cowboys and butthead fame?

On Sat, Mar 16, 2013 at 6:52 AM, Douglas Roberts d...@parrot-farm.netwrote:

 Throw in a US Navy Admiral (Retired) Sarbajit, and you have the perfect
 recipe!

 (Old, inside joke, I'm afraid).

 --Doug


 On Fri, Mar 15, 2013 at 7:15 PM, Sarbajit Roy sroy...@gmail.com wrote:

 Hi Steve

 I must mention that these scamsters target victims aged 50+ presumably
 with little knowledge of computers and under-informed of human psychology.
 Probably picked the wrong bunch at FRIAM :-).

 Doug (from what I observe) takes care of himself very well. I'll ask my
 friends to devise a special scam for him involving peacocks and an Android
 app.

 Sarbajit


 On Sat, Mar 16, 2013 at 6:26 AM, Steve Smith sasm...@swcp.com wrote:

  Sarbajit -

 And here we thought it was you!

 Pranking Nick is just mean, but maybe you could give Doug a ring and
 tell him you can fix his Bluetooth/WiFi problem if he just gives you his
 credit card and bank account numbers and the keys to his BMW Motorcycle...

 We could all have a party and help you spend out his accounts ordering
 stuff online...  Do you think he's gullible enough?

 - Steve


  This scam has been around for years

 http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jul/18/phone-scam-india-call-centres


  On Sat, Mar 16, 2013 at 1:33 AM, Douglas Roberts 
 d...@parrot-farm.netwrote:

 I've gotten a few of those over the past few days from similarly
 accented people trying to tell me that my Windows machine was infected with
 a virus, but the callers' numbers were blocked.

  No, I didn't bother to Linuxize them, although that would have been
 fun.

  --Doug


  On Fri, Mar 15, 2013 at 1:55 PM, Nicholas Thompson 
 nickthomp...@earthlink.net wrote:

   Can anybody confirm this as a new form of pfishing?



 I got a call from a number in DC today, somebody with a strong Indian
 sub-continent accident, telling me that my computer was sending error
 messages to the network and offering to help me correct them.  (I have the
 number in my phone trap, and would report it if I knew where to report it
 to.)  The next step involved my going on my computer and connect it to
 them, I assume.   These guys were pretty bad at what they were doing,, but
 I can imagine a more subtle line that I might have fallen for.



 Does anybody recognize this?



 N



 Nicholas S. Thompson

 Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

 Clark University

 http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

 http://www.cusf.org





  
 FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
 Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
 to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com




  --
  *Doug Roberts
 d...@parrot-farm.net*
 *http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins*http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins
 *
 505-455-7333 - Office
 505-672-8213 - Mobile*

 
 FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
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 --
 *Doug Roberts
 d...@parrot-farm.net*
 *http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins*http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins
 * http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins
 505-455-7333 - Office
 505-672-8213 - Mobile*

 
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Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: Petition Response: Increasing Public Access to the Results of Scientific Research

[Sarbajit Roy]

digressing, I (non citizen) just registered and voted today on another We
the People, Petition.

So its kind of neat to see that US policies get voted on by Global Citizens.

On Sat, Feb 23, 2013 at 10:47 PM, Robert J. Cordingley 
rob...@cirrillian.com wrote:

  Do you have prove US Citizenship to gain access?  (It says citizens with
 a small 'c'.)  Shouldn't one be?
 Robert C


 On 2/23/13 10:05 AM, Owen Densmore wrote:

 Hey, it worked!  From midway down:

  To that end, I have issued a memorandum today 
 (.pdf)http://links.whitehouse.gov/track?type=clickenid=ZWFzPTEmbWFpbGluZ2lkPTIwMTMwMjIzLjE1ODgyMzUxJm1lc3NhZ2VpZD1NREItUFJELUJVTC0yMDEzMDIyMy4xNTg4MjM1MSZkYXRhYmFzZWlkPTEwMDEmc2VyaWFsPTE3MDQyNzg2JmVtYWlsaWQ9b3dlbkBiYWNrc3BhY2VzLm5ldCZ1c2VyaWQ9b3dlbkBiYWNrc3BhY2VzLm5ldCZmbD0mZXh0cmE9TXVsdGl2YXJpYXRlSWQ9JiYm101http://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/microsites/ostp/ostp_public_access_memo_2013.pdf
  to
 Federal agencies that directs those with more than $100 million in research
 and development expenditures to develop plans to make the results of
 federally-funded research publically available free of charge within 12
 months after original publication. As you pointed out, the public access
 policy adopted by the National Institutes of Health has been a great
 success. And while this new policy call does not insist that every agency
 copy the NIH approach exactly, it does ensure that similar policies will
 appear across government.


 -- Owen

 -- Forwarded message --
 From: The White House i...@messages.whitehouse.gov
 Date: Fri, Feb 22, 2013 at 5:58 PM
 Subject: Petition Response: Increasing Public Access to the Results of
 Scientific Research
 To: o...@backspaces.net


 [image: The White House]


 Increasing Public Access to the Results of Scientific Research

 *By Dr. John Holdren, Assistant to the President for Science and
 Technology and Director of the White House Office of Science and Technology
 Policy*

 Thank you for your 
 participationhttp://links.whitehouse.gov/track?type=clickenid=ZWFzPTEmbWFpbGluZ2lkPTIwMTMwMjIzLjE1ODgyMzUxJm1lc3NhZ2VpZD1NREItUFJELUJVTC0yMDEzMDIyMy4xNTg4MjM1MSZkYXRhYmFzZWlkPTEwMDEmc2VyaWFsPTE3MDQyNzg2JmVtYWlsaWQ9b3dlbkBiYWNrc3BhY2VzLm5ldCZ1c2VyaWQ9b3dlbkBiYWNrc3BhY2VzLm5ldCZmbD0mZXh0cmE9TXVsdGl2YXJpYXRlSWQ9JiYm100https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/require-free-access-over-internet-scientific-journal-articles-arising-taxpayer-funded-research/wDX82FLQ?utm_source=wethepeopleutm_medium=responseutm_campaign=accessin
  the We the People platform. The Obama Administration agrees that
 citizens deserve easy access to the results of research their tax dollars
 have paid for. As you may know, the Office of Science and Technology Policy
 has been looking into this issue for some time and has reached out to the
 public on two occasions for input on the question of how best to achieve
 this goal of democratizing the results of federally-funded research. Your
 petition has been important to our discussions of this issue.

 The logic behind enhanced public access is plain. We know that scientific
 research supported by the Federal Government spurs scientific breakthroughs
 and economic advances when research results are made available to
 innovators. Policies that mobilize these intellectual assets for re-use
 through broader access can accelerate scientific breakthroughs, increase
 innovation, and promote economic growth. That’s why the Obama
 Administration is committed to ensuring that the results of
 federally-funded scientific research are made available to and useful for
 the public, industry, and the scientific community.

 Moreover, this research was funded by taxpayer dollars. Americans should
 have easy access to the results of research they help support.

 To that end, I have issued a memorandum today 
 (.pdf)http://links.whitehouse.gov/track?type=clickenid=ZWFzPTEmbWFpbGluZ2lkPTIwMTMwMjIzLjE1ODgyMzUxJm1lc3NhZ2VpZD1NREItUFJELUJVTC0yMDEzMDIyMy4xNTg4MjM1MSZkYXRhYmFzZWlkPTEwMDEmc2VyaWFsPTE3MDQyNzg2JmVtYWlsaWQ9b3dlbkBiYWNrc3BhY2VzLm5ldCZ1c2VyaWQ9b3dlbkBiYWNrc3BhY2VzLm5ldCZmbD0mZXh0cmE9TXVsdGl2YXJpYXRlSWQ9JiYm101http://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/microsites/ostp/ostp_public_access_memo_2013.pdfto
  Federal agencies that directs those with more than $100 million in
 research and development expenditures to develop plans to make the results
 of federally-funded research publically available free of charge within 12
 months after original publication. As you pointed out, the public access
 policy adopted by the National Institutes of Health has been a great
 success. And while this new policy call does not insist that every agency
 copy the NIH approach exactly, it does ensure that similar policies will
 appear across government.

 As I mentioned, these policies were developed carefully through extensive
 public consultation. We wanted to strike the balance between the
 extraordinary public benefit of increasing public access to the 

Re: [FRIAM] Business opportunity

[Sarbajit Roy]

http://yro.slashdot.org/story/13/01/25/144204/unlocking-new-mobile-phones-becomes-illegal-in-the-us-tomorrow

On Sun, Feb 17, 2013 at 10:38 AM, Douglas Roberts d...@parrot-farm.netwrote:

 That is why an unlocked phone can be to your advantage.
 On Feb 16, 2013 10:06 PM, Russell Standish r.stand...@unsw.edu.au
 wrote:

 The phone is just a touch over two years old. Even though my contract
 has expired, and the phone company has offered an upgrade, its only on
 the proviso that I change plans, which would see me losing roaming (a
 big deal in a country where mobile coverage it pretty ratshit out of
 the big cities). Upgrading the phone would also see me putting the old
 phone back in the drawer, not to be used again, as the SIM has changed
 format, for the first time in my mobile phone history.

 My experience has been so far that every phone upgrade has seen the
 loss of as much functionality as new functionality gained. At each
 generation, its a different set of functionality I have to do without,
 or find alternative ways of meeting the need.

 As I said - my phone does everything I need of it right now. At some
 point upgrading will become compelling - hopefully that happens before
 the phone dies physically.

 Cheers

 On Sat, Feb 16, 2013 at 09:48:53PM -0700, Douglas Roberts wrote:
  Android 1.6?
 
  Let me guess: you're also one of those running an ASCII email client, as
  well. I believe I see a pattern.
 
  (Message sent from my rooted, cyanogen modded Android 4.2.2
  work-in-progress gorilla glass excuse for a phone).
  On Feb 16, 2013 9:35 PM, Russell Standish r.stand...@unsw.edu.au
 wrote:
 
   On Sat, Feb 16, 2013 at 10:34:39AM -0700, Owen Densmore wrote:
I don't want to be flame bait (oh well, maybe i do) .. I posted
 this on
your blog post:
   
I'm surprised anyone buys android phones at all. They're stuck
 between a
rock and a hard place: If they buy from Google they have your well
articulated problems.
   
But if they get another handset mfgrs phone, they get no updates ..
 as
   far
as I know most give you the vanilla android+their device's drivers
 with
little to no upgrades over time.
   
cyanogenmod? Er.. sorta proves the point!
   
   
  
   Updates is not the only reason to buy a phone. I went Android
   (upgrading from Symbian), precisely because of the iOS lockdown
   prevents me from using a couple of critical features on iPhone (namely
   USB Mass store, and USB modem - aka tethering).
  
   Yes, it would be nice to have had some updates to Android (I'm on 1.6
   (donut?)), but its not the end of the world, as the phone basically
   does everything I need of it.
  
   Cheers
  
   --
  
  
  
 
   Prof Russell Standish  Phone 0425 253119 (mobile)
   Principal, High Performance Coders
   Visiting Professor of Mathematics  hpco...@hpcoders.com.au
   University of New South Wales  http://www.hpcoders.com.au
  
  
 
  
   
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 --


 
 Prof Russell Standish  Phone 0425 253119 (mobile)
 Principal, High Performance Coders
 Visiting Professor of Mathematics  hpco...@hpcoders.com.au
 University of New South Wales  http://www.hpcoders.com.au

 

 
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Re: [FRIAM] Windows Resource Monitor

[Sarbajit Roy]

Nick
What flavour/version of Windows are you running and how much RAM do you
have installed?.

Try Ctr-Alt-Del and see if a Task Manager pops up. If so, click on
Processes.

On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 9:51 AM, Joshua Thorp jth...@redfish.com wrote:

 Nick it sounds like you are on the right track.

 I would look at the RAM (memory) consumption first.  If you can avoid
 filling it up, thus causing your computer to swap to disk, your computer
 will probably run a lot better.  Easier said than done! But finding these
 background tasks that you don't need and uninstalling/disabling them is
 worth it to keep your computer running a little longer.

 Also reading your email on the command line will help…  But I wouldn't
 recommend it, you'll miss all the sight gags. :)

 --joshua


 On Feb 6, 2013, at 8:53 PM, Douglas Roberts wrote:

 BUT, I do have a bridge I'd consider selling...
 On Feb 6, 2013 8:52 PM, Douglas Roberts d...@parrot-farm.net wrote:

 Help someone who relies on Dell? Can't be done, my friend.
 On Feb 6, 2013 8:48 PM, Nicholas Thompson nickthomp...@earthlink.net
 wrote:

 HEY!

 This my thread and the price of admission is actually being helpful with
 the problem. Please don’t jam this channel.  

 ** **

 After you have said something helpful, THEN you can be ribald.  

 ** **

 n

 ** **

 *From:* Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] *On Behalf Of *Douglas
 Roberts
 *Sent:* Wednesday, February 06, 2013 8:39 PM
 *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
 *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Windows Resource Monitor

 ** **

 How about Trojan cracks? Sounds like rich earth, ripe for tilling.

 Merle, what are your thoughts?

 On Feb 6, 2013 8:34 PM, Nicholas Thompson nickthomp...@earthlink.net
 wrote:

 Hi, 

  

 My Dell Studio (yeah, yeah, save the Mac cracks) has been cranky of
 late, particularly when streaming stuff, and since I am reluctant to put
 out a couple of hundred dollars to have it “tuned up”, I have been trying
 to see what I can do on my own.  This has led me to the resource monitor, a
 truly fascinating little gizmo, a couple of levels down in the Task
 Manager.The help files that are attached to it are pretty lean, and I
 was wondering if someone knew of a “Resource Monitor  for Idiots” source.
 

  

 One thing that I immediately learned which was STUNNING was that mac
 I-tunes has a chum that it loads called AppleRemoteDevicesManager.exe which
 grabs 25 percent of your resources off the top and doesn’t let go unless
 you whack it over the head with a brick.  It’s purpose is to manage your
 relationship with your mobile devices, but relentlessly demands resources
 even though you don’t have any mobile devices.   I think of it as
 essentially an Apple Trojan.  (Ok, now, you can make Mac-cracks). 

  

 Thanks, 

  

 Nick 

  

 Nicholas S. Thompson

 Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

 Clark University

 http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

 http://www.cusf.org

  

  


 
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Re: [FRIAM] Massive, Indifferent, Brooding Silence

[Sarbajit Roy]

Just to update fellow FRIAMers.

The most common standard display device in the world today is the 16x2
character LCD display. The vast majority of installations use it in 4 bit
mode.

On Tue, Feb 5, 2013 at 12:08 AM, Douglas Roberts d...@parrot-farm.netwrote:

 As a courtesy to our old-fashioned (to put it politely) FRIAM list members
 who are still reading email on their TRS-80 ascii terminals, I will supply
 a synopses of the material contained in that new-fangled url thingie below:
  the article discusses a massive, indifferent, brooding silence.

 You're welcome.



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Re: [FRIAM] Massive, Indifferent, Brooding Silence

[Sarbajit Roy]

A sundial only works consistently (sort of) between the tropics.

On Tue, Feb 5, 2013 at 7:50 PM, Douglas Roberts d...@parrot-farm.netwrote:

 I prefer the sundial, myself.



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Re: [FRIAM] Massive, Indifferent, Brooding Silence

[Sarbajit Roy]

Steve

Being a devotee of ancient computing devices myself, I was responding to
Doug's TRS-80 ascii comment

here's what a 16x2 LCD module looks like
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-hN2n9HggfCw/T2TOHEMIAsI/AAc/LrJ6uy2cNrs/s1600/lcd162b-yhy.jpg

These critters are so ubiquitous that you fail to see them. These modules
have an 8 bit data bus to communicate with Z-80s, 8085 etc (nowadays though
PICS, AVRs and ATMELs). They also have a facility to split the 8 bit data
into 2 successive nibbles of 4 bits (ie 4 pins + 2 control pins= 6 pins).
This allows for instance a 12 or 14 PIC (with 8 - 10  I/O lines) to be used
to implement very small devices. The design advantage ot using these
standard displays versus dedicated/custom displays is that they have no
end-of-life problems. They were available 20 years ago and still seem to be
going very strong with prices falling to @ US$1 per unit

Sarbajit


On Tue, Feb 5, 2013 at 11:46 PM, Steve Smith sasm...@swcp.com wrote:

  Sarbajit -

 Can you elaborate?  I think this one just flew past me...  2 lines of 16
 characters with only 4 bit indexing (alphabet of 16 characters?)...  This
 sounds like (much) more than a digital watch (do those even exist anymore?)
 or even a calculator (only 1 line?).

 I feel like you handed us a riddle like the sphynx!

 I tried a massive,  brooding, indifferent posture to Dougs posts on this
 one, but I could only hold the pose for a few seconds before breaking into
 a belly laugh appropriate only for the Buddha or Santa Claus.

 - Steve

 Just to update fellow FRIAMers.

 The most common standard display device in the world today is the 16x2
 character LCD display. The vast majority of installations use it in 4 bit
 mode.

  On Tue, Feb 5, 2013 at 12:08 AM, Douglas Roberts d...@parrot-farm.netwrote:

  As a courtesy to our old-fashioned (to put it politely) FRIAM list
 members who are still reading email on their TRS-80 ascii terminals, I will
 supply a synopses of the material contained in that new-fangled url thingie
 below:  the article discusses a massive, indifferent, brooding silence.

  You're welcome.




 
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Re: [FRIAM] Massive, Indifferent, Brooding Silence

[Sarbajit Roy]

We call it chip-on-glass, and it actually improves the reliability of the
device. When thiese devices first came out they used a Hitachi
processor/IC. Then some Koreans made a clone (shifted around some control
words), then the Chinese made their clone ICs (more control word shifts and
incompatibilities). Sanity descended, now everything is hidden under the
epoxy bond, and compatibility has returned.

On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 12:18 AM, Roger Critchlow r...@elf.org wrote:

 Another mystery of these displays was solved for me the other day when
 Bunnie took his Media Lab visitors to a direct chip bonding shop in
 Shenzhen.  On the back of the bog standard LCD display there will often be
 a dome of black epoxy in place of a chip.  I thought they were hiding the
 chip, but in fact the dome covers a piece of raw silicon integrated circuit
 glued to the board and wired to the board with tiny wires.

 -- rec --

 http://learn.adafruit.com/character-lcds/overview

 http://www.freaklabs.org/index.php/Blog/MIT-Media-Lab-Shenzhen-2013/MIT-Media-Lab-Shenzhen-2013-01-22-Chip-on-Board-Bare-Die-Attachment.html

 freaklabs.org is off-line at the moment, but that looks like the right
 posting.  Lady Ada's tutorial gets to the 8/4 bit bus after several pages
 of prelims.



 On Tue, Feb 5, 2013 at 11:31 AM, Douglas Roberts d...@parrot-farm.netwrote:

 You see, this is the kind of material that keeps me on FRIAM.

 --Doug


 On Tue, Feb 5, 2013 at 11:29 AM, Roger Critchlow r...@elf.org wrote:

 The interface to the bog standard LCD display can use either 8 or 4 bits
 parallel, which only changes the number of outs you need to do to fill the
 line buffer, which has an 8 bit byte for each character   The 8 bit
 character ROM often has fascinating character sets in the high half
 depending on where the surplus came from.

 -- rec --


 On Tue, Feb 5, 2013 at 11:16 AM, Steve Smith sasm...@swcp.com wrote:

  Sarbajit -

 Can you elaborate?  I think this one just flew past me...  2 lines of
 16 characters with only 4 bit indexing (alphabet of 16 characters?)...
 This sounds like (much) more than a digital watch (do those even exist
 anymore?) or even a calculator (only 1 line?).

 I feel like you handed us a riddle like the sphynx!

 I tried a massive,  brooding, indifferent posture to Dougs posts on
 this one, but I could only hold the pose for a few seconds before breaking
 into a belly laugh appropriate only for the Buddha or Santa Claus.

 - Steve

 Just to update fellow FRIAMers.

 The most common standard display device in the world today is the 16x2
 character LCD display. The vast majority of installations use it in 4 bit
 mode.

  On Tue, Feb 5, 2013 at 12:08 AM, Douglas Roberts d...@parrot-farm.net
  wrote:

  As a courtesy to our old-fashioned (to put it politely) FRIAM list
 members who are still reading email on their TRS-80 ascii terminals, I 
 will
 supply a synopses of the material contained in that new-fangled url 
 thingie
 below:  the article discusses a massive, indifferent, brooding silence.

  You're welcome.




 
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 Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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 --
 *Doug Roberts
 d...@parrot-farm.net*
 *http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins*http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins
 * http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins
 505-455-7333 - Office
 505-672-8213 - Mobile*

 
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Re: [FRIAM] How to avoid shootings

[Sarbajit Roy]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expanding_bullet
Invented in India.
Outlawed 22-2 with Britain and the USofA in favour at the Hague Convention.

On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 10:12 PM, Robert J. Cordingley 
rob...@cirrillian.com wrote:

  Plus 
 reportshttp://posttrib.suntimes.com/17051480-537/connecticut-school-shooter-had-lots-of-ammo-when-he-was-found.htmlsaid
  the type and quantity of ammo sends shudders up your spine:

 ...enough to kill just about every student in the school if given enough
 time, authorities said

  The chief medical examiner has said the ammunition was a type designed
 to expend its energy in the victim’s tissues and stay inside the body to
 inflict the maximum amount of damage.

 Robert C


 On 12/17/12 9:17 AM, Barry MacKichan wrote:

 Quail hunting?

  On Dec 16, 2012, at 4:43 PM, Owen Densmore wrote:

 Why would anyone need an AK-47?




 
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Re: [FRIAM] Hacking Phones In China

[Sarbajit Roy]

My advice for your friends would be to get a local Chinese person to
buy a USD$ 40 Chinese phone/tablet for them which would give them
googlemaps.

On 10/13/12, Nicholas  Thompson nickthomp...@earthlink.net wrote:

 Dear FRIAM,

 I thought, at the very minimum, this might amuse some of you, and that, at
 the maximum, some of you might have something useful to say to my friends in
 china.  Steve?

 [O]ur colleague Mark,… volunteered to take us out to get Chinese

 telephones. We don’t have much use here for telephones qua telephones,
 really. We

 communicate with America by e-mail and Skype; all the people we know in
 China are right here

 in the building where we work. Whom would we call? But we are persuaded that
 wandering

 around a city -- particularly other cities than Beijing -- will be more
 comfortable if we have

 access to GoogleMaps to tell us where we are, even if the labels are all in
 Chinese. (“No. See

 here, we are near ‘squiggle-cross-backhatch-box-with-two-lines,’ but we want
 to be at ‘double-xon-

 top-of-box-with-three-lines-over-swoopy-x-shaped-thing.’”) So off we went,
 Mark, Martha,

 Dominic and me, on the subway to Weigongcun, two stops away. We wound up in
 a shop for the

 second largest telecom company in China, which nonetheless felt like a
 little hole-in-the-wall

 that badly needed a new coat of paint. There was a wall of sample telephones
 and another wall

 of leaflets describing the plans we could buy. Of course we could not
 understand them at all. It

 was simultaneously reassuring and disturbing that our Chinese friend, Mark,
 had trouble

 understanding them too. From our distant perspective, the choice was easy:
 give us the cheapest

 thing that will help us find ourselves when we’re lost in Xi’an, Guangzhou
 or Shanghai.



 The idea was to buy a SIM card -- “subscriber identity module” -- and plug
 it into the iPhone we

 had brought from America. After some back and forth, we settle on a plan
 that allows us to get a

 discount by pre-paying the fees for a year. We got another discount by
 choosing a telephone

 number that ends with a four. Four (sè, ࢛), apparently, is an unpopular
 number in China

 because the word is a (near) homophone with another word meaning “death”
 (sě, ࢮ). In

 Mandarin there is a tone difference, but there isn’t even that in some other
 dialects. Numbers

 that end in four are sold primarily to foreigners. They don’t care about the
 superstition, and the

 Chinese don’t care if the foreigners die.2 It’s a win-win situation.



 The plan was the install the SIM card into my iPhone. Mark assured us that
 “iPhones are easy to

 deal with.” When we had paid our 500 rmb and gotten a little piece of
 plastic in return, however,

 the trouble started. Mark expected our phone to have a little slot in the
 side where the SIM

 would fit. No slot. Oh, it’s an American phone. No problem, he says. His
 friends know how to

 hack into American phones. (“You don’t want any of the data that’s on your
 phone, do you?”

 Hmm.) The next day, it turns out that there is a problem. American phones
 aren’t just locked,

 they’re somehow sealed in bondage to their American service providers.
 Hacking them would

 require chopping out most of their innards and replacing them. We might as
 well buy a new

 phone. Alright … but wait! Martha brought her Android phone from home. Would
 it be easier

 to deal with? Maybe. Wait. Yes! This phone can work in China! Away Mark goes
 with a

 smile, Martha’s phone and our 500 rmb piece of plastic. Back he comes with a
 frown. No, you

 need a PIN to “unlock” the phone. Maybe your phone service provider in
 America will give you

 the code? (“Maybe our phone service provider will treat us to dinner and a
 movie, give us a foot

 massage and wash our dishes while we are away at work.”) So, we sent off
 messages to America

 asking whether Verizon will kindly let us unlock our phone so we can join a
 competing provider

 while we are in China. Meanwhile, we have a 500 rmb piece of plastic that is
 electronically

 connected to a magical Chinese death-number.

 Great.



 Nicholas S. Thompson

 Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

 Clark University

 http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

 http://www.cusf.org http://www.cusf.org/








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Re: [FRIAM] Expanding the Debate

[Sarbajit Roy]

1) I am a pure (acharya) Brahmin. This means that we marry
endogamously to ensure that chromosomes like Genghis Khan's do not
enter our genetic code,.

2) Previously we followed our own variation of Genghis Khan genetic
propagation by the practice of Kulinism. This allows a dominant gene
(initially small in numbers) to stamp itself on a lower population
using hierarchial polygamy. Islam has the same concept. Apparently the
LDS / Mormons use the same method. My faith was instrumental in
eradicating this pernicious practice from India.

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/54026798-78/lds-religious-church-largest.html.csp
http://www.ambedkar.org/books/dob9.htm

3) It seems that just under half of New Mexico's pop. is
Hispanic/Latino. Isn't it a pity their POVs on Prez elections / US
democracy aren't heard on FRIAM, as they have been ignored since the
Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo and Articles IX and  XI therein

On 10/6/12, Steve Smith sasm...@swcp.com wrote:
 Sarbajit -
 Only 1 in 200 men are descended from Genghis Khan.
 http://www.cell.com/AJHG/retrieve/pii/S0002929707605874
 OK... so I was being hyperbolic... the point is that you (and I) are
 more likely (statistically) to be descended from Gangly Khan than evil
 Kingly John... unless of course, I become President in which case all
 bets are off.

 I am not.

 You've verified that?  I haven't a clue for myself.




FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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Re: [FRIAM] Expanding the Debate

[Sarbajit Roy]

From what I can make out, the Mormons in Utah agreed to
give up polygamy so that Utah could become a State of the
Union.

However, your Constitution apparently guarantees the First
Amendment Right to freely practice any religion. With religions
like Islam specifically permitting polygamy, how are your courts
dealing with it.

http://www.law.emory.edu/ifl/cases/USA.htm

On 10/6/12, Prof David West profw...@fastmail.fm wrote:
 Small nit ---

 On Sat, Oct 6, 2012, at 12:29 AM, Sarbajit Roy wrote:

 Apparently the LDS / Mormons use the same method.

 You are correct only in the case of fundamentalist offshoots - like
 Warren Jeffs and his FLDS church where plural marriage was used as a
 kind of social control and propagation of the leader's genes.  All of
 these groups have been excommunicated from the mainstream church.

 With the individual exceptions (including perhaps the founder of the
 church) the practice of polygamy in Utah - before it was outlawed - was
 centered around social welfare - a very large surplus of elderly women,
 past child bearing years, with no means of supporting themselves.

 I received a grant about fifteen years ago and did an ethnography of
 contemporary plural marriages in the Western U.S. - about a third of
 them had no association/affiliation with Mormonism.  With the exception
 of the fundamentalist breakaways - plural marriage seems to have very
 little to do with either religion or sex - it is first and foremost and
 economic institution - and a source of significant wealth.  This is
 probably not true in cultures where women are sequestered and
 restricted, i.e. cannot be engines of economic gain.

 davew


 
 FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
 Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
 lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

 
 FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
 Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
 lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org



FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Re: [FRIAM] Expanding the Debate

[Sarbajit Roy]

On 10/5/12, Joseph Spinden j...@qri.us wrote:
 I read the books listed in the reverse of the order in which I listed
 them.  Perhaps because of that, I think the order of relevance is also
 increasing.

 In particular, the authors of IEWTIL (rhymes with futile) explain why
 they believe a third party would not improve the situation at all:  If
 anything, the opposite, in part because a third party would most likely
 take votes from the Democrats.

 The constitution was designed to prevent a majority from riding
 roughshod over a significant minority.  The Republicans have realized
 that the rules enable them to stop (almost) all movement. The parties
 are acting in Parliamentary fashion (voting in lockstep), when the
 Constitution was designed without any consideration of that
 possibility.  Indeed, when the Constitution was formed, the idea of
 political parties would have been appalling to the founding fathers (and
 would perhaps have been considered unpatriotic).  (After all, they had
 shortly before united to fight a war to throw off the British yoke.)

 For those interested in voting systems, towards the end of the book the
 authors suggest alternate voting regimes.  There are several interesting
 suggestions for improving the present situation.

 For myself, I am coming to believe the only hope is for the Democrats to
 retake control of both houses and the presidency, so as to enable them
 to push through voting reform.  Although, in fairness, it is not clear
 that they would do that it they did gain control.  But I do not see any
 other way to implement change to the current situation.

 Joe




 On 10/4/12 4:39 PM, Steve Smith wrote:
 Joe -
 All very interesting, but I would suggest reading the books I
 recommended a few posts back to understand the issues and some of the
 (possibly feasible) solutions.

 I appreciated your suggestions during a previous thread on Politics:

 /
 Democracy Lost, by Lawrence Lessig, Harvard Law professor - the
 corrupting influence of money on Washington //
 //
 //The Price of Inequality, by Joseph Stiglitz, Nobel Laureate in
 Economics - the increasing inequality in the US and its impact, as
 well as various responses to conservative economic orthodoxies //
 //
 //It's Even Worse Than It Looks, by Thomas E. Mann (Brookings
 Institution) and Norman J. Ornstein (American Enterprise
 Institute) - why congress is almost completely ineffectual and
 what might be done about it. /

 I am, in fact familiar with some of these writers works and ideas and
 generally agree with them and think their ideas are important.

 I'm focusing on raising awareness for the need to break the bipartisan
 stranglehold on elections (and public debate) right now simply because
 the opportunity is here right now... our nose is being rubbed in how
 lame the process and structure of Presidential Campaigns, Debates,
 Elections have become.

 Lessig addresses this more than the other two I think.

 I definitely don't think that it is nearly enough to introduce a third
 (or several more) parties.   But it might be necessary?

 - Steve


 On 10/4/12 2:19 PM, Steve Smith wrote:
 Doug -
 I'm voting for Gary as my mechanism for voting against Romney, and
 lackluster Obama.
 I don't know how accurate/useful/neutral this particular map is:


 http://freedomslighthouse.net/2012-presidential-election-electoral-vote-map/

 But it suggests to me that many who are voting for Obama to vote
 *against* Romney/'Pubs/etc. can afford to risk wasting their vote
 by voting *for* any third party.   And alternatively, those who
 might actually *want* Romney might accept that he's not happening
 this time around and vote *for* the choice of a third party.  My
 personal preference *is* Gary Johnson despite my general mistrust of
 self-declared Liberatarians.   I think he could do a better job
 handling the *important* issues for *both* parties than the
 candidates fielded.

 I'm very conflicted about Obama's performance...  I understand the
 general malaise represented by your desription as lackluster...
 but I'm also willing to see him in for 4 more years.  It looks
 pretty likely he will get that chance.

 Meanwhile I want to vote *for* third party representation and
 alternatives to Red/Blue.  This looks like the chance.

 For those who are interested, BTW, https://voterview.state.nm.us/
 will let you look up your registration status.   It seems a little
 too easy to look up (name, birthdate?) but I guess this *is* public
 information?!

 The psuedo-debates on Democracy Now with the Green and the Justice
 party gave me hope... neither of the candidates came off as
 whackadoodles... which I'm not sure I can say for Romney (though the
 constrained/scripted debate format helps hide that side of him).

 - Steve
 --Doug

 On Thu, Oct 4, 2012 at 1:40 PM, Steve Smith sasm...@swcp.com
 mailto:sasm...@swcp.com wrote:

 I've been out of the mix for a while, so I missed this: