Re: [Audyssey] swamp v1.1 recording
I was having some difficulty getting the link to work, that might be the reason. Here's a new one: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/85682400/sswamp11.mp3 - Original Message - From: Kaveinthran Pulanthran kavein2...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Date sent: Sun, 24 Mar 2013 09:30:10 +0800 Subject: Re: [Audyssey] swamp v1.1 recording hi, it returns with dropbox 404 not found page. thanks --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Aprones games was Re: Looking For Something New toPlay
Well, while I'm sorry to hear about the security business (some peoplle are just idiots), I'm glad the Ai is working and that things are progressing. As I said, i don't personally resent the time spent on swamp, it's a genre of games we've not had playable in audio, indeed when i get back to my flat I would also like to get back to swamp as well since it's been a while since I've played and there are a lot of things I've not tried. That being said, I am interested to see what you've got up your sleeve next. Personally as I've said before I'd love to see a castaways Ii or similar, with a full civilization building approach and great amounts of detail, but whatever comes next will be good, especially if it gets the same attention as Swamp which has worked out extremely well. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] replayability and Usa games was Re: Looking For Something New to Play
Hi michael. I wasn't intending my comments about Tom's games to be insulting, nor would I want Tom to rush out a game on a whim that might be substandard, it's just that when talking of game design quality that gives a game that something that makes you want to replay it even after! you have played it before despite lack of secrets etc, is a quality Tom's games have very much had, (perhaps not final conflict but certainly his other games). It's like with books. Some books I read and think that's great! but they have very little reread value just because the prose aren't that interesting or the plot, while surprising the first time is really not the second time. Great books however have reread value, which is Why every few years I reread the hobbit, lotr, The silmarillion, William Horwood's first three duncton novels, since in their style, their creation of a world and their unique design they really stand out and can provide as much surprise and eloquence the second time around or even the 10th time around as the first. Beware the Grue! dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] patience - Re: replayability and Usa games was Re:Looking ForSomething New to Play
I Very much agree on all points their Charlese, the fact that Tom keeps us informed is great. As I said, my comments weren't intended as a cryticism, just a statement of feeling and support in Tom's design ability. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Aprones games was Re: Looking For Something NewtoPlay
Hi aprone. I can imagine hackers trying to muck up the game to cheat, but to do it simply to cause trouble is down right scummy, particularly because it's likely these hackers are probably visually impared themselves since they wouldn't have heard of the game otherwise, which makes it doubly pathetic given that swamp is one of only a few accessible games of this type. it's a shame your Ai can't give them a really nasty virus in return, the T virus would suit very well! :D. sorry, resident evil joke there. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Looking For Something New to Play
Hi john. As regards castaways, I'm afraid I disagree, not that it isn't small, but that it is complete. Myself, I'd love! to see a full castaways Ii with similar mechanics, but on a far larger scale, so that you could go from your small population of survivers, right up to a full city, could trade, develope new technologies, endure natural desasters or wars etc. I have a friend who is a big stratogy fan, and plays extensively the indi graphical game (and sadly not accessible), dwarf fortress. I could never myself see the appeal of such games, since all the experience I had ever had of them was abasially the stuff like ateraeon or 1000 ad, where you just set some resources to producing then sit back and watch, (not that interesting), but the reactive gameplay in swamp, the need to change priorities, considder people, alter what your doing according to goals you want to accomplish, rather than just set stuff up in an optimum way was something I found quite new, particularly since ulike some of the military stratogy games like Sound rts, in Castaways there was as much emphasis on the production and building end, and taking care of your population, keeping them safe through sickness desasters etc as there was of pure military attacks. so, while I'm a huge castaways fan, i can see so many ways in which the game could be expanded it's unbelievable, and I really do hope Aprone will work on a more complete castaways in the future. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Aprones games was Re: Looking For Something NewtoPlay
Dark, From sighted indie games of my past, I'm used to the idea of hackers trying to ruin everyone's fun, so that doesn't upset me as much as others might think. Yeah it does annoy me, but I don't take it quite as personal as maybe I should, just because I've seen it for so many years. What does get under my skin is that several of the Swamp hackers have changed tactics over the past 4 or 5 months, and they go after my personal property. In fact, in just the past few weeks with the new testing server up I've had 2 pretty big attacks that were aimed at damaging my laptop, not Swamp! I highly doubt these people are smart enough to be developing these attacks themselves, rather they probably find shady websites and download tools to make these attacks for them, but that doesn't change the situation very much. The last one was an attack I've personally never seen before. The automated attack went through each of the devices in my local LAN and spammed them with a huge list of common login names and passwords, hoping they'd get luck on one of them. This is the kind of stuff that could eventually ruin multiplayer audio games just like most multiplayer mainstream indie games have happen to them. The problem is that while mainstream indie games continue to come out by the hundreds and thousands, audio games trickle in at a very slow pace. We simply cannot afford to see a day when 95% of them are crushed by hackers as soon as they get popular. I don't have a plan to solve this issue, but I sure hope someone does. - Aprone From: dark d...@xgam.org Hi aprone. I can imagine hackers trying to muck up the game to cheat, but to do it simply to cause trouble is down right scummy, particularly because it's likely these hackers are probably visually impared themselves since they wouldn't have heard of the game otherwise, which makes it doubly pathetic given that swamp is one of only a few accessible games of this type. it's a shame your Ai can't give them a really nasty virus in return, the T virus would suit very well! :D. sorry, resident evil joke there. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] wargames was Aprones games
A fun game Al, though really if it simulated a nuclear war, the one with surviving population should then draw the card radioactive death! and lose all their population :D. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Aprones games was Re: Looking For Something NewtoPlay
Jeremy, It's highly unlikely that the attacks you're seeing are from your players. There's not really any incentive for them, and direct attacks are so easy to track back that if it were one of your players, you should be able to smash them easily. I say this because we get literally thousands of such attacks a month on the Alter Aeon server. They come from all over the world and in all different types, from attempts on our forum and wiki to portscans to common backdoors and brute force ssh login attempts. The automated attack of login names and passwords hits us between five and ten times daily. I don't even bother to pay attention to the reports on that anymore. Dennis Towne Alter Aeon MUD http://www.alteraeon.com On Sun, Mar 24, 2013 at 9:28 AM, Jeremy Kaldobsky jer...@kaldobsky.com wrote: Dark, From sighted indie games of my past, I'm used to the idea of hackers trying to ruin everyone's fun, so that doesn't upset me as much as others might think. Yeah it does annoy me, but I don't take it quite as personal as maybe I should, just because I've seen it for so many years. What does get under my skin is that several of the Swamp hackers have changed tactics over the past 4 or 5 months, and they go after my personal property. In fact, in just the past few weeks with the new testing server up I've had 2 pretty big attacks that were aimed at damaging my laptop, not Swamp! I highly doubt these people are smart enough to be developing these attacks themselves, rather they probably find shady websites and download tools to make these attacks for them, but that doesn't change the situation very much. The last one was an attack I've personally never seen before. The automated attack went through each of the devices in my local LAN and spammed them with a huge list of common login names and passwords, hoping they'd get luck on one of them. This is the kind of stuff that could eventually ruin multiplayer audio games just like most multiplayer mainstream indie games have happen to them. The problem is that while mainstream indie games continue to come out by the hundreds and thousands, audio games trickle in at a very slow pace. We simply cannot afford to see a day when 95% of them are crushed by hackers as soon as they get popular. I don't have a plan to solve this issue, but I sure hope someone does. - Aprone --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Aprones games was Re: Looking For Something NewtoPlay
Wow, that's even scummier than I thought, some people are just naturally vandals. one thing I do wonder however, is how games like Alteraeon, cor exiles, kingdom of laothing etc stay up. Perhaps, it would be worth having words with dentin, the Ce dev (I can pass on her mail if you like), and some of the other developers of accessible multiplayer online games about their security arrangements since it would be a bloody massive shame if such attacks did! indeed ruine things, and this is not the first I've heard of this sort of thing in the accessible games community, since audiogames.net fell victim to a very nasty hack a couple of years ago and was offline for about amonth (luckily we do back stuff up). Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Aprones games was Re: Looking For Something NewtoPlay
Dennis, they do trace back to actual players. I know that the internet is swarmed with automated attacks, and I ignore those as well. I'm specifically referring to attacks that easily trace back to Swamp players that have been banned. One of the 2 recent attacks left enough information that I confronted the guy on Skype about it. Of course he denied it, but made a few smug statements that were clearly to rub it in my face without actually confessing anything. - Aprone From: Dennis Towne s...@xirr.com Jeremy, It's highly unlikely that the attacks you're seeing are from your players. There's not really any incentive for them, and direct attacks are so easy to track back that if it were one of your players, you should be able to smash them easily. I say this because we get literally thousands of such attacks a month on the Alter Aeon server. They come from all over the world and in all different types, from attempts on our forum and wiki to portscans to common backdoors and brute force ssh login attempts. The automated attack of login names and passwords hits us between five and ten times daily. I don't even bother to pay attention to the reports on that anymore. Dennis Towne Alter Aeon MUD http://www.alteraeon.com --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] wargames was Aprones games
Hi Dark, As a matter of fact, if I remember reading about the card game, it's directions statethat there is no winners, lol. I think that would make a fun audio game. It's days like this I wish I could program, grin. al The truth will set you free Jesus Christ of Nazareth 33A.D. - Original Message - From: dark To: Gamers Discussion list Sent: Sunday, March 24, 2013 1:00 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] wargames was Aprones games A fun game Al, though really if it simulated a nuclear war, the one with surviving population should then draw the card radioactive death! and lose all their population :D. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Aprones games was Re: Looking For Something NewtoPlay
Dark, It's not really vandals. It's the botnet guys, and they don't care one whit about mudding or audio games or anything else. All they're trying to do is get machines that they can add to their botnet. The basic idea is that the bad guys get a huge number of computers under central control, then they use those machines to send spam or to generate advertising clicks to make money. That's all they want - machines they can use to generate money via various kinds of spam. They're parasites, and it sucks a lot - but there's no easy way to get rid of them, and all we can do is stand up to the constant assault. The way that I handle it is via security domains, so that different machines run things that are more risky. A good example of this would be the AA wiki server, which is on a separate machine because it's a PHP based and probably hackable. If one machine is compromised, it doesn't necessarily affect the rest of the network, and you can keep everything up. Dennis Towne Alter Aeon MUD http://www.alteraeon.com On Sun, Mar 24, 2013 at 10:09 AM, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Wow, that's even scummier than I thought, some people are just naturally vandals. one thing I do wonder however, is how games like Alteraeon, cor exiles, kingdom of laothing etc stay up. Perhaps, it would be worth having words with dentin, the Ce dev (I can pass on her mail if you like), and some of the other developers of accessible multiplayer online games about their security arrangements since it would be a bloody massive shame if such attacks did! indeed ruine things, and this is not the first I've heard of this sort of thing in the accessible games community, since audiogames.net fell victim to a very nasty hack a couple of years ago and was offline for about amonth (luckily we do back stuff up). Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Aprones games was Re: Looking For Something NewtoPlay
hi aprone, since most of these hackers are chinese maybe they chinese government offers free hacking courses for these people since now you are a potential target for them especially after swampnet you probably should consider getting a firewall or something for your other computers you should also probably patch all important security holes through windows update asap you also should probably specificly block those hacker's ip addresses from gaining access to your other pcs anyway, hope the hackers don't mess up swamp or your pcs On 3/24/2013 6:28 PM, Jeremy Kaldobsky wrote: Dark, From sighted indie games of my past, I'm used to the idea of hackers trying to ruin everyone's fun, so that doesn't upset me as much as others might think. Yeah it does annoy me, but I don't take it quite as personal as maybe I should, just because I've seen it for so many years. What does get under my skin is that several of the Swamp hackers have changed tactics over the past 4 or 5 months, and they go after my personal property. In fact, in just the past few weeks with the new testing server up I've had 2 pretty big attacks that were aimed at damaging my laptop, not Swamp! I highly doubt these people are smart enough to be developing these attacks themselves, rather they probably find shady websites and download tools to make these attacks for them, but that doesn't change the situation very much. The last one was an attack I've personally never seen before. The automated attack went through each of the devices in my local LAN and spammed them with a huge list of common login names and passwords, hoping they'd get luck on one of them. This is the kind of stuff that could eventually ruin multiplayer audio games just like most multiplayer mainstream indie games have happen to them. The problem is that while mainstream indie games continue to come out by the hundreds and thousands, audio games trickle in at a very slow pace. We simply cannot afford to see a day when 95% of them are crushed by hackers as soon as they get popular. I don't have a plan to solve this issue, but I sure hope someone does. - Aprone From: dark d...@xgam.org Hi aprone. I can imagine hackers trying to muck up the game to cheat, but to do it simply to cause trouble is down right scummy, particularly because it's likely these hackers are probably visually impared themselves since they wouldn't have heard of the game otherwise, which makes it doubly pathetic given that swamp is one of only a few accessible games of this type. it's a shame your Ai can't give them a really nasty virus in return, the T virus would suit very well! :D. sorry, resident evil joke there. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Aprones games was Re: Looking For Something NewtoPlay
Jeremy, That's pretty weird. I haven't seen a machine based attack worth talking about from my player base in nearly fifteen years, and in that case I just called up his provider and got his accounts revoked. I'm sure there have been other hack attempts, but I'd have to waste time rooting through the logs to see how often they happen. What kinds of techniques are they using? Perhaps the difference is dependent on UDP usage instead of TCP connections. Dennis Towne Alter Aeon MUD http://www.alteraeon.com On Sun, Mar 24, 2013 at 10:57 AM, Jeremy Kaldobsky jer...@kaldobsky.com wrote: Dennis, they do trace back to actual players. I know that the internet is swarmed with automated attacks, and I ignore those as well. I'm specifically referring to attacks that easily trace back to Swamp players that have been banned. One of the 2 recent attacks left enough information that I confronted the guy on Skype about it. Of course he denied it, but made a few smug statements that were clearly to rub it in my face without actually confessing anything. - Aprone From: Dennis Towne s...@xirr.com Jeremy, It's highly unlikely that the attacks you're seeing are from your players. There's not really any incentive for them, and direct attacks are so easy to track back that if it were one of your players, you should be able to smash them easily. I say this because we get literally thousands of such attacks a month on the Alter Aeon server. They come from all over the world and in all different types, from attempts on our forum and wiki to portscans to common backdoors and brute force ssh login attempts. The automated attack of login names and passwords hits us between five and ten times daily. I don't even bother to pay attention to the reports on that anymore. Dennis Towne Alter Aeon MUD http://www.alteraeon.com --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Aprones games was Re: Looking For Something NewtoPlay
I haven't contacted any providers lately because it hasn't been helping. The last few times I bothered to contact anyone the information traced back to small businesses (coffee shop type things) or schools, and they just ignored me. I doubt they care to lose any business over some random guy reporting abuse. The most annoying attacks have been DOS attacks and packet injection to try and break the server or log in as other users. The DOS attacks were fairly small scale by most standards, but that doesn't mean it didn't cause huge lag and log in issues. The one a few days ago that hit my LAN looked to me like it was meant to exploit the remote sign in feature in Windows. They probably assumed I was using that to check the server, which is a fair assumption, but was wrong. As I said I don't worry about the standard background internet garbage, since that just comes with the territory, but I think it's a big deal with people from the community itself are doing these things. I think the reason you haven't seen much of this in Alter Aeon is because they're still preoccupied with Swamp. Many of the hackers are the same people I've dealt with for a year now. Each time they are thwarted they clearly spend time learning new things because their next set of efforts shows improvement. So if after a year of learning and trying new things we have blind audio games players who are willing to target the personal property of game developers for fun, then I think we have a problem. Odds are, they won't wake up with the ability to see tomorrow, so they aren't going to just go away. If they have this destructive mind set and only the audio games community to prey on, then other developers are going to have to deal with them at some point as well. From: Dennis Towne s...@xirr.com Jeremy, That's pretty weird. I haven't seen a machine based attack worth talking about from my player base in nearly fifteen years, and in that case I just called up his provider and got his accounts revoked. I'm sure there have been other hack attempts, but I'd have to waste time rooting through the logs to see how often they happen. What kinds of techniques are they using? Perhaps the difference is dependent on UDP usage instead of TCP connections. Dennis Towne Alter Aeon MUD http://www.alteraeon.com --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Aprones games was Re: Looking For Something NewtoPlay
hi all. While the internet offers its own anonymity and someone can change their IP address and login name the audio gaming community is still a small one. I think that the well established audio game makers who have evidence about specific gamers should publish it in order to warn other people. We could even consider a global black list for these gamers. The fact that we are a small community would mean that even if someone were to change their username or internet provider their real name might still be exposed through real life interaction with other users. So this might discourage many of the attacks by not making it worth the effort. Those people might think they are cool, but maybe they will reconsider when they cannot play any online game, buy /download any games or interact in the audio gaming community without the label of a sneaky cheat. On 3/24/13, Jeremy Kaldobsky jer...@kaldobsky.com wrote: I haven't contacted any providers lately because it hasn't been helping. The last few times I bothered to contact anyone the information traced back to small businesses (coffee shop type things) or schools, and they just ignored me. I doubt they care to lose any business over some random guy reporting abuse. The most annoying attacks have been DOS attacks and packet injection to try and break the server or log in as other users. The DOS attacks were fairly small scale by most standards, but that doesn't mean it didn't cause huge lag and log in issues. The one a few days ago that hit my LAN looked to me like it was meant to exploit the remote sign in feature in Windows. They probably assumed I was using that to check the server, which is a fair assumption, but was wrong. As I said I don't worry about the standard background internet garbage, since that just comes with the territory, but I think it's a big deal with people from the community itself are doing these things. I think the reason you haven't seen much of this in Alter Aeon is because they're still preoccupied with Swamp. Many of the hackers are the same people I've dealt with for a year now. Each time they are thwarted they clearly spend time learning new things because their next set of efforts shows improvement. So if after a year of learning and trying new things we have blind audio games players who are willing to target the personal property of game developers for fun, then I think we have a problem. Odds are, they won't wake up with the ability to see tomorrow, so they aren't going to just go away. If they have this destructive mind set and only the audio games community to prey on, then other developers are going to have to deal with them at some point as well. From: Dennis Towne s...@xirr.com Jeremy, That's pretty weird. I haven't seen a machine based attack worth talking about from my player base in nearly fifteen years, and in that case I just called up his provider and got his accounts revoked. I'm sure there have been other hack attempts, but I'd have to waste time rooting through the logs to see how often they happen. What kinds of techniques are they using? Perhaps the difference is dependent on UDP usage instead of TCP connections. Dennis Towne Alter Aeon MUD http://www.alteraeon.com --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Aprones games was Re: Looking For Something NewtoPlay
true sometimes we get lucky and some contry mainly the us manages with a lot of mucking about over several years of looking round to close one botnet down, however they only seem to go after the majorly serious ones, so sertainly going after these bad guys is quite resource hungry. I think one of the worst was on last year when several dns previders were infected with a virus and others were rerouted, eventually these were shut down but the colateral was huge on those that were connected, sertainly they had to be disinfected/ reformatted first and well, resources really don't justify going after these guys unless they really become a problem. Its like all the flies we have true you could kill all the flies but you would never get them all so its something you have to handle, the net and its badnesses like any world its got its evil side needs to be controled. And software that says it will happily nuke all the evil is just kidding itself. And even if it does there is a tradeoff. I once had a security system I worked on that was a combo of 3 bits of software. It said it would kill everything evil. It didn't ocur to the author to define what was though and the software thought of itself as good and everything evil. After a lot of junk I had to take down and reformat 10 networked machines, their backup drives etc. wasn't worth it at all. At 07:59 AM 3/25/2013, you wrote: Dark, It's not really vandals. It's the botnet guys, and they don't care one whit about mudding or audio games or anything else. All they're trying to do is get machines that they can add to their botnet. The basic idea is that the bad guys get a huge number of computers under central control, then they use those machines to send spam or to generate advertising clicks to make money. That's all they want - machines they can use to generate money via various kinds of spam. They're parasites, and it sucks a lot - but there's no easy way to get rid of them, and all we can do is stand up to the constant assault. The way that I handle it is via security domains, so that different machines run things that are more risky. A good example of this would be the AA wiki server, which is on a separate machine because it's a PHP based and probably hackable. If one machine is compromised, it doesn't necessarily affect the rest of the network, and you can keep everything up. Dennis Towne Alter Aeon MUD http://www.alteraeon.com On Sun, Mar 24, 2013 at 10:09 AM, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Wow, that's even scummier than I thought, some people are just naturally vandals. one thing I do wonder however, is how games like Alteraeon, cor exiles, kingdom of laothing etc stay up. Perhaps, it would be worth having words with dentin, the Ce dev (I can pass on her mail if you like), and some of the other developers of accessible multiplayer online games about their security arrangements since it would be a bloody massive shame if such attacks did! indeed ruine things, and this is not the first I've heard of this sort of thing in the accessible games community, since audiogames.net fell victim to a very nasty hack a couple of years ago and was offline for about amonth (luckily we do back stuff up). Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Aprones games was Re: Looking For Something NewtoPlay
china does get a bad wrap but they seem to be at the forefrunt of a lot of the goings on these days saying that they make all the computers and other things they basically have taken over most of the world. wouldn't make sence to get anymore. At 07:59 AM 3/25/2013, you wrote: hi aprone, since most of these hackers are chinese maybe they chinese government offers free hacking courses for these people since now you are a potential target for them especially after swampnet you probably should consider getting a firewall or something for your other computers you should also probably patch all important security holes through windows update asap you also should probably specificly block those hacker's ip addresses from gaining access to your other pcs anyway, hope the hackers don't mess up swamp or your pcs On 3/24/2013 6:28 PM, Jeremy Kaldobsky wrote: Dark, From sighted indie games of my past, I'm used to the idea of hackers trying to ruin everyone's fun, so that doesn't upset me as much as others might think. Yeah it does annoy me, but I don't take it quite as personal as maybe I should, just because I've seen it for so many years. What does get under my skin is that several of the Swamp hackers have changed tactics over the past 4 or 5 months, and they go after my personal property. In fact, in just the past few weeks with the new testing server up I've had 2 pretty big attacks that were aimed at damaging my laptop, not Swamp! I highly doubt these people are smart enough to be developing these attacks themselves, rather they probably find shady websites and download tools to make these attacks for them, but that doesn't change the situation very much. The last one was an attack I've personally never seen before. The automated attack went through each of the devices in my local LAN and spammed them with a huge list of common login names and passwords, hoping they'd get luck on one of them. This is the kind of stuff that could eventually ruin multiplayer audio games just like most multiplayer mainstream indie games have happen to them. The problem is that while mainstream indie games continue to come out by the hundreds and thousands, audio games trickle in at a very slow pace. We simply cannot afford to see a day when 95% of them are crushed by hackers as soon as they get popular. I don't have a plan to solve this issue, but I sure hope someone does. - Aprone From: dark d...@xgam.org Hi aprone. I can imagine hackers trying to muck up the game to cheat, but to do it simply to cause trouble is down right scummy, particularly because it's likely these hackers are probably visually impared themselves since they wouldn't have heard of the game otherwise, which makes it doubly pathetic given that swamp is one of only a few accessible games of this type. it's a shame your Ai can't give them a really nasty virus in return, the T virus would suit very well! :D. sorry, resident evil joke there. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Aprones games was Re: Looking For Something NewtoPlay
on that note I'd like to see a game that would have stratogy, puzzles, action, adventure and maybe a few other things put into one at some point down the road. ofcause it would be massive. At 08:42 AM 3/25/2013, you wrote: I haven't contacted any providers lately because it hasn't been helping. The last few times I bothered to contact anyone the information traced back to small businesses (coffee shop type things) or schools, and they just ignored me. I doubt they care to lose any business over some random guy reporting abuse. The most annoying attacks have been DOS attacks and packet injection to try and break the server or log in as other users. The DOS attacks were fairly small scale by most standards, but that doesn't mean it didn't cause huge lag and log in issues. The one a few days ago that hit my LAN looked to me like it was meant to exploit the remote sign in feature in Windows. They probably assumed I was using that to check the server, which is a fair assumption, but was wrong. As I said I don't worry about the standard background internet garbage, since that just comes with the territory, but I think it's a big deal with people from the community itself are doing these things. I think the reason you haven't seen much of this in Alter Aeon is because they're still preoccupied with Swamp. Many of the hackers are the same people I've dealt with for a year now. Each time they are thwarted they clearly spend time learning new things because their next set of efforts shows improvement. So if after a year of learning and trying new things we have blind audio games players who are willing to target the personal property of game developers for fun, then I think we have a problem. Odds are, they won't wake up with the ability to see tomorrow, so they aren't going to just go away. If they have this destructive mind set and only the audio games community to prey on, then other developers are going to have to deal with them at some point as well. From: Dennis Towne s...@xirr.com Jeremy, That's pretty weird. I haven't seen a machine based attack worth talking about from my player base in nearly fifteen years, and in that case I just called up his provider and got his accounts revoked. I'm sure there have been other hack attempts, but I'd have to waste time rooting through the logs to see how often they happen. What kinds of techniques are they using? Perhaps the difference is dependent on UDP usage instead of TCP connections. Dennis Towne Alter Aeon MUD http://www.alteraeon.com --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Aprones games was Re: Looking For Something NewtoPlay
Is this a case of we only have so long left, or do you think they'll eventually give up? - Original Message - From: Jeremy Kaldobsky jer...@kaldobsky.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Date sent: Sun, 24 Mar 2013 12:42:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Aprones games was Re: Looking For Something NewtoPlay I haven't contacted any providers lately because it hasn't been helping. The last few times I bothered to contact anyone the information traced back to small businesses (coffee shop type things) or schools, and they just ignored me. I doubt they care to lose any business over some random guy reporting abuse. The most annoying attacks have been DOS attacks and packet injection to try and break the server or log in as other users. The DOS attacks were fairly small scale by most standards, but that doesn't mean it didn't cause huge lag and log in issues. The one a few days ago that hit my LAN looked to me like it was meant to exploit the remote sign in feature in Windows. They probably assumed I was using that to check the server, which is a fair assumption, but was wrong. As I said I don't worry about the standard background internet garbage, since that just comes with the territory, but I think it's a big deal with people from the community itself are doing these things. I think the reason you haven't seen much of this in Alter Aeon is because they're still preoccupied with Swamp. Many of the hackers are the same people I've dealt with for a year now. Each time they are thwarted they clearly spend time learning new things because their next set of efforts shows improvement. So if after a year of learning and trying new things we have blind audio games players who are willing to target the personal property of game developers for fun, then I think we have a problem. Odds are, they won't wake up with the ability to see tomorrow, so they aren't going to just go away. If they have this destructive mind set and only the audio games community to prey on, then other developers are going to have to deal with them at some point as well. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Aprones games was Re: Looking For Something NewtoPlay
That's an interesting idea. I just wonder if we aren't already to big of a group for that to work effectively.. - Original Message - From: Willem Venter dwill...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Date sent: Sun, 24 Mar 2013 22:28:19 +0200 Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Aprones games was Re: Looking For Something NewtoPlay hi all. While the internet offers its own anonymity and someone can change their IP address and login name the audio gaming community is still a small one. I think that the well established audio game makers who have evidence about specific gamers should publish it in order to warn other people. We could even consider a global black list for these gamers. The fact that we are a small community would mean that even if someone were to change their username or internet provider their real name might still be exposed through real life interaction with other users. So this might discourage many of the attacks by not making it worth the effort. Those people might think they are cool, but maybe they will reconsider when they cannot play any online game, buy /download any games or interact in the audio gaming community without the label of a sneaky cheat. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] a little article
Hi Been. Just read your article. I agree on one major point. We here in the states should put as much and or even more into audio games that we place for the high graphics for the sighted player. Like yourself, GG was the first game I purchased as well. Thanks to a friend of mine who lives on the other end of the state. His wife at that time baught it for him for his birthday. Then he told my brother and I all about it and I had to have it as well. Then just like yourself and most of us who loves games and puzzles, I picked it up myself and became one of their beta testers for their second game. It is a same that it looks like they went belly up though. But it was a small one man company. Plus his daughter was seriously sick and had to have a visiting nurse at home. So I can see why he ended up having to shut down the company. Since being hooked on Three-D velocity and the civilian side of the flying coin Microsoft Flight simulator via the third party voice input program It's Your Plane that's hot of Canada. I even had that much time to play my old favorite Blast chamber which I was a beta tester for. Congratulations on a great article. Here's hoping we can get a couple of companines to stand up and listen to us. Ron and current Leader Dog boz who states that a service dog beats a cane paws down any day of the week. -Original Message- From: Ben Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2013 1:52 PM To: 'Gamers Discussion list' Subject: [Audyssey] a little article Hi guys, Over the past week I've done an article about blind gamers and the mainstream community... from my point of view. Its been published. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2266516/Meet-blind-teenager-B en-Breen-cracked-video-game-world-relying-solely-sound.html -Original Message- From: Gamers [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Kimberly Qualls Sent: 22 January 2013 18:35 To: lindsay_cow...@btinternet.com; Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] New to the List LOL...And then there's that...Lindsay, what lev are you? On 1/22/13, lindsay_cow...@btinternet.com lindsay_cow...@btinternet.com wrote: Just one thing about AA, you die a lot, and dying is a part of the game. I play a necromancer mage and I really struggle. -original message- Subject: Re: [Audyssey] New to the List From: Kimberly Qualls kimberly021...@gmail.com Date: 22/01/2013 6:11 pm Erika, Hi, and yes AA is an incredible mud to play...I just started playing it recently but be careful, it has been known to make dishes pile up in the sink...lol...It's a lot of fun, and thanks for the link to the magica mud...Man, if it's as good as AA, I'm going to be fired around here...(Grin) On 1/22/13, Ken's Mail kenwdow...@me.com wrote: If you like muds, Alter Aeon is the way to go. Not only does it have tons of rooms, mobs, quests, spells, skills, and areas to explore, but Oriol Gomez has done a most wonderful sound pack for it for Mush client. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Re: [Audyssey] Looking For Something New to Play
Hi Dark, Yeah, that would be awesome. I can see where Castaways could grow and be bigger and better than the current version if Aprone wants to go in that direction. We will have to see of course, but I too would like to be able to build a full sized city, perhaps engage in trade with other communities, and battle enemy hoards. On 3/24/13, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Hi john. As regards castaways, I'm afraid I disagree, not that it isn't small, but that it is complete. Myself, I'd love! to see a full castaways Ii with similar mechanics, but on a far larger scale, so that you could go from your small population of survivers, right up to a full city, could trade, develope new technologies, endure natural desasters or wars etc. I have a friend who is a big stratogy fan, and plays extensively the indi graphical game (and sadly not accessible), dwarf fortress. I could never myself see the appeal of such games, since all the experience I had ever had of them was abasially the stuff like ateraeon or 1000 ad, where you just set some resources to producing then sit back and watch, (not that interesting), but the reactive gameplay in swamp, the need to change priorities, considder people, alter what your doing according to goals you want to accomplish, rather than just set stuff up in an optimum way was something I found quite new, particularly since ulike some of the military stratogy games like Sound rts, in Castaways there was as much emphasis on the production and building end, and taking care of your population, keeping them safe through sickness desasters etc as there was of pure military attacks. so, while I'm a huge castaways fan, i can see so many ways in which the game could be expanded it's unbelievable, and I really do hope Aprone will work on a more complete castaways in the future. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Looking For Something New to Play
Heh, that would be a lot of names on the list. - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Date sent: Sun, 24 Mar 2013 18:23:02 -0400 Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Looking For Something New to Play Hi Dark, Yeah, that would be awesome. I can see where Castaways could grow and be bigger and better than the current version if Aprone wants to go in that direction. We will have to see of course, but I too would like to be able to build a full sized city, perhaps engage in trade with other communities, and battle enemy hoards. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] replayability and Usa games was Re: Looking For Something New to Play
Hi Dark, Thanks for saying that. If I can make my games enjoyable,, replayable, then I think I've succeeded as a game designer. It is the sort of games that a person plays once, completes it in a few hours, and finds they have no desire to replay the game I would consider a failure. There are, of course, a few audio games like that, but I'm glad to know my games aren't one of them. On 3/24/13, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Hi michael. I wasn't intending my comments about Tom's games to be insulting, nor would I want Tom to rush out a game on a whim that might be substandard, it's just that when talking of game design quality that gives a game that something that makes you want to replay it even after! you have played it before despite lack of secrets etc, is a quality Tom's games have very much had, (perhaps not final conflict but certainly his other games). It's like with books. Some books I read and think that's great! but they have very little reread value just because the prose aren't that interesting or the plot, while surprising the first time is really not the second time. Great books however have reread value, which is Why every few years I reread the hobbit, lotr, The silmarillion, William Horwood's first three duncton novels, since in their style, their creation of a world and their unique design they really stand out and can provide as much surprise and eloquence the second time around or even the 10th time around as the first. Beware the Grue! dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] replayability and Usa games was Re: Looking For Something New to Play
Yes, from what I've seen, they aren't. Now if only we had a game engine for everyone that was inclusive of other operating systems? Would one have to own a mac to even code/compile for it? Wait, Java works on everything right? But then, most audio games use TTS that other systems don't have, so java wouldn't work well with audio games on my mac. I gave my pc to my sister, so I'll have to find a VM. Anyways, perhaps BGT could do it, but I doubt Philip would want to expand into mac stuff, since everyone seems to think that windows is all there is. I know Draconis has made an engine that is inclusive, but that is only available for them. Devin Prater r.d.t.pra...@gmail.com On Mar 24, 2013, at 7:34 PM, Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Dark, Thanks for saying that. If I can make my games enjoyable,, replayable, then I think I've succeeded as a game designer. It is the sort of games that a person plays once, completes it in a few hours, and finds they have no desire to replay the game I would consider a failure. There are, of course, a few audio games like that, but I'm glad to know my games aren't one of them. On 3/24/13, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Hi michael. I wasn't intending my comments about Tom's games to be insulting, nor would I want Tom to rush out a game on a whim that might be substandard, it's just that when talking of game design quality that gives a game that something that makes you want to replay it even after! you have played it before despite lack of secrets etc, is a quality Tom's games have very much had, (perhaps not final conflict but certainly his other games). It's like with books. Some books I read and think that's great! but they have very little reread value just because the prose aren't that interesting or the plot, while surprising the first time is really not the second time. Great books however have reread value, which is Why every few years I reread the hobbit, lotr, The silmarillion, William Horwood's first three duncton novels, since in their style, their creation of a world and their unique design they really stand out and can provide as much surprise and eloquence the second time around or even the 10th time around as the first. Beware the Grue! dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] replayability and Usa games was Re: Looking For Something New to Play
Hi Dark, You aren't the only one who is frustrated. None more so than me since the last few months I've fallen into a kind of funk. One where time has no meaning as such. What I mean by that I might work heavily on the game on February 12, and then discover the next time I work on the game it is March 23. It doesn't seem to me like it has been that long, but it is so easy to loose track of time that days and weeks go by between updates. So much time that the game has been dragging out from months to years. Of course, the principle problem is lack of motivation. I'm no longer driven to work every available minute of every day on it so I get to it when I get to it. What makes matters worse I have not been at my best health wise anyway . Just this week my son caught a nasty cold and now has given it to me. When I have a sore throat, headache, and am coughing I'm not exactly in a mood to sit down and program for hours on end. Add in some cold medicine that makes me tired and the best thing I can do is sleep rather than work. It seems this year I have caught every cold and flu bug coming and going and I've just not felt much like working on games. I'm hoping that somehow I will be able to get back up to my usual productivity, finish these games, get them out, and won't have them hanging over my head. I'm just as eager to see them completed as most people on the list. :D All that aside I know what you mean by wishing to revisit the atmosphere of the game. Shades of Doom doesn't have a very complex storyline as games goes, but it does not need one. The lab is challenging enough with all the various monsters that keeps me coming back over and over again. On the higher difficulty levels there is no certainty that I will even complete a game without being killed off which means I am able to pit myself against the game and sometimes I win sometimes I lose. It is this degree of replay value I hope to incorporate into my own games. On 3/22/13, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Hi Michael. On the replayability angle, I often find that games are replayable from the perspective of reexperiencing the atmosphere or story, or just trying to best the tough challenges another time. It is this that has made me replay shades of doom and Sarah. By the same tocan, i've replayed games like super Metroid and Mega man x 1 more times than I can count, just because the gameplay, design and structure, not to mention atmosphere and music are so perfectly designed. There are several audio games that I view in this same catagory, particularly Gma's offerings. So though I do completely agree random elements are great in games for keeping you on your toes, which is why games like smugglers and kerkerkruip are so awsome, they're not a necessity if design etc works out well. heck, this even goes for arcade games and is the reason i've replayed Q9 and the pinball games despite them being symple arcade titles. whether mota will fall into this catagory I am waiting to see, though i've been impressed enough with what we've seen thus far to think that tom's ability to not just code games but design them is up to the task, which is another reason I would so much appreciate seeing him produce an honest to goodness finished project, bet that the wrestling game, Arc of hope, an acessible castlevania type side scroller, a mission based startrek game or a vampire text rpg, heck I'd even! like to see raceway despite racing games not being a favourite genre of mine. Concepts are great, and what we've sene of Tom's design has been great, I just sometimes feel a little frustrated that with all these ideas we haven't yet seen anything that has gone past a couple of playable levels. I am quite aware that this isn't always Tom's fault, and have followed all the community debates and opinions (some not so flattering) that have been voiced. I am also aware of other commitments, but at the same time I do feel a little like usa games is the tantalus of the accessible games markit and just as we all reach for that big bunch of juicy grapes they get yanked away again for one reason or another. This isn't intended as an insult, just a statement of feelings and a continuation about the debate over game design, since I do genuinely believe Tom has the ability to design a real block buster, which is also why I would so much like to see a complete, or at least completely released game. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
[Audyssey] killing replay value - Re: replayability and Usa games was Re: Looking For Something New to Play
Another thing that I see all the time is this: A new game comes out at 10 this morning. By eleven, gamers are asking the list for help through something they have stumbled into. Even if I know the answer, I will not tell them yet. Part of the challenge of a game is to work on it on! your! own!!, and figure it out. If you bought a jigsaw puzzle with lettered and numbered pieces, and it came with instructions that tell you to fit A1 to A2, and below A2 you should fit B2, and so on until the puzzle is finished, what good would that be? Yet that is exactly what some blind gamers want, and I just flat don't understand this. --- Shepherds are the best beasts, but Labs are a close second. - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, March 24, 2013 7:57 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] replayability and Usa games was Re: Looking For Something New to Play Hi Dark, You aren't the only one who is frustrated. None more so than me since the last few months I've fallen into a kind of funk. One where time has no meaning as such. What I mean by that I might work heavily on the game on February 12, and then discover the next time I work on the game it is March 23. It doesn't seem to me like it has been that long, but it is so easy to loose track of time that days and weeks go by between updates. So much time that the game has been dragging out from months to years. Of course, the principle problem is lack of motivation. I'm no longer driven to work every available minute of every day on it so I get to it when I get to it. What makes matters worse I have not been at my best health wise anyway . Just this week my son caught a nasty cold and now has given it to me. When I have a sore throat, headache, and am coughing I'm not exactly in a mood to sit down and program for hours on end. Add in some cold medicine that makes me tired and the best thing I can do is sleep rather than work. It seems this year I have caught every cold and flu bug coming and going and I've just not felt much like working on games. I'm hoping that somehow I will be able to get back up to my usual productivity, finish these games, get them out, and won't have them hanging over my head. I'm just as eager to see them completed as most people on the list. :D All that aside I know what you mean by wishing to revisit the atmosphere of the game. Shades of Doom doesn't have a very complex storyline as games goes, but it does not need one. The lab is challenging enough with all the various monsters that keeps me coming back over and over again. On the higher difficulty levels there is no certainty that I will even complete a game without being killed off which means I am able to pit myself against the game and sometimes I win sometimes I lose. It is this degree of replay value I hope to incorporate into my own games. On 3/22/13, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Hi Michael. On the replayability angle, I often find that games are replayable from the perspective of reexperiencing the atmosphere or story, or just trying to best the tough challenges another time. It is this that has made me replay shades of doom and Sarah. By the same tocan, i've replayed games like super Metroid and Mega man x 1 more times than I can count, just because the gameplay, design and structure, not to mention atmosphere and music are so perfectly designed. There are several audio games that I view in this same catagory, particularly Gma's offerings. So though I do completely agree random elements are great in games for keeping you on your toes, which is why games like smugglers and kerkerkruip are so awsome, they're not a necessity if design etc works out well. heck, this even goes for arcade games and is the reason i've replayed Q9 and the pinball games despite them being symple arcade titles. whether mota will fall into this catagory I am waiting to see, though i've been impressed enough with what we've seen thus far to think that tom's ability to not just code games but design them is up to the task, which is another reason I would so much appreciate seeing him produce an honest to goodness finished project, bet that the wrestling game, Arc of hope, an acessible castlevania type side scroller, a mission based startrek game or a vampire text rpg, heck I'd even! like to see raceway despite racing games not being a favourite genre of mine. Concepts are great, and what we've sene of Tom's design has been great, I just sometimes feel a little frustrated that with all these ideas we haven't yet seen anything that has gone past a couple of playable levels. I am quite aware that this isn't always Tom's fault, and have followed all the community debates and opinions (some not so flattering) that have been voiced. I am also aware of other commitments, but at the same time I do feel a little like usa games is the tantalus of the accessible games
Re: [Audyssey] replayability and Usa games was Re: Looking For Something New to Play
Hi Devin, Cross-compiling and developing for other operating systems is a highly complex subject. There are a lot of difficulties in choosing the right language, right APIs, and even then there are differences between the operating systems that makes it impossible to come up with a so-called one size fits all solution. For example, I have a game engine written in C++ that does run on Windows, Linux, and Mac. However, the problem is that I have to have a machine here running all of those operating systems to cross-compile the games, and I'm not exactly happy with all the APIs available for the engine. Right now my cross-platform version of the engine is using SDL 1.2.13 for handling a basic window manager, handling game input, and for audio. Its okay, but Microsoft's DirectX technology is a superior game API and it isn't available for non-Windows platforms. That puts me in between a rock and a hard place in terms of writing games. If I use the cross-platform version of the engine Windows users will be without advanced features such as force feedback for joysticks or without the ability to have advanced audio because SDL just doesn't offer it. Therefore the quality of my games would suffer not because of anything I did, but because I chose to use a inferior API for the engine in order to maintain cross-platform capabilities. If I use the Windows version of the engine based on DirectX I have access to all the advanced features, but can't just take it over to a Mac or Linux PC and cross-compile it without a major rewrite. What I've discovered in researching the problem I can get some decent solutions for two platforms but not for three platforms. Maybe there is one that works fine for Windows and Mac, Windows and Linux, but none that works for Windows, Mac, and Linux that are of the quality and standards I'm looking for and are affordable. Yes, I know Draconis has there engine for Mac and Windows, but it took a lot of time and work to do so. As I understand it they basically had to write their own game development APIs from scratch rather than use SDL or something like that. Even so at this point it only supports Windows, Mac OS, and iOS but not Linux. So its not exactly all inclusive either. So anyone even thinking cross-platform development has a rough road to travel. Cheers! On 3/24/13, Devin Prater r.d.t.pra...@gmail.com wrote: Yes, from what I've seen, they aren't. Now if only we had a game engine for everyone that was inclusive of other operating systems? Would one have to own a mac to even code/compile for it? Wait, Java works on everything right? But then, most audio games use TTS that other systems don't have, so java wouldn't work well with audio games on my mac. I gave my pc to my sister, so I'll have to find a VM. Anyways, perhaps BGT could do it, but I doubt Philip would want to expand into mac stuff, since everyone seems to think that windows is all there is. I know Draconis has made an engine that is inclusive, but that is only available for them. Devin Prater r.d.t.pra...@gmail.com --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] replayability and Usa games was Re: Looking For Something New to Play
Wow. Well, Windows, mac and maybe iOS is a fine triplet to go for, but now I see how hard it is. Maybe I'll get a windows VM, or if bootcamp is accessible I'll get a windows cd to make a partition for that. Maybe give it 100GB, to fit the games I like. Devin Prater r.d.t.pra...@gmail.com On Mar 24, 2013, at 8:30 PM, Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Devin, Cross-compiling and developing for other operating systems is a highly complex subject. There are a lot of difficulties in choosing the right language, right APIs, and even then there are differences between the operating systems that makes it impossible to come up with a so-called one size fits all solution. For example, I have a game engine written in C++ that does run on Windows, Linux, and Mac. However, the problem is that I have to have a machine here running all of those operating systems to cross-compile the games, and I'm not exactly happy with all the APIs available for the engine. Right now my cross-platform version of the engine is using SDL 1.2.13 for handling a basic window manager, handling game input, and for audio. Its okay, but Microsoft's DirectX technology is a superior game API and it isn't available for non-Windows platforms. That puts me in between a rock and a hard place in terms of writing games. If I use the cross-platform version of the engine Windows users will be without advanced features such as force feedback for joysticks or without the ability to have advanced audio because SDL just doesn't offer it. Therefore the quality of my games would suffer not because of anything I did, but because I chose to use a inferior API for the engine in order to maintain cross-platform capabilities. If I use the Windows version of the engine based on DirectX I have access to all the advanced features, but can't just take it over to a Mac or Linux PC and cross-compile it without a major rewrite. What I've discovered in researching the problem I can get some decent solutions for two platforms but not for three platforms. Maybe there is one that works fine for Windows and Mac, Windows and Linux, but none that works for Windows, Mac, and Linux that are of the quality and standards I'm looking for and are affordable. Yes, I know Draconis has there engine for Mac and Windows, but it took a lot of time and work to do so. As I understand it they basically had to write their own game development APIs from scratch rather than use SDL or something like that. Even so at this point it only supports Windows, Mac OS, and iOS but not Linux. So its not exactly all inclusive either. So anyone even thinking cross-platform development has a rough road to travel. Cheers! On 3/24/13, Devin Prater r.d.t.pra...@gmail.com wrote: Yes, from what I've seen, they aren't. Now if only we had a game engine for everyone that was inclusive of other operating systems? Would one have to own a mac to even code/compile for it? Wait, Java works on everything right? But then, most audio games use TTS that other systems don't have, so java wouldn't work well with audio games on my mac. I gave my pc to my sister, so I'll have to find a VM. Anyways, perhaps BGT could do it, but I doubt Philip would want to expand into mac stuff, since everyone seems to think that windows is all there is. I know Draconis has made an engine that is inclusive, but that is only available for them. Devin Prater r.d.t.pra...@gmail.com --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Aprones games was Re: Looking For Something NewtoPlay
Hi Dennis. Well that doesn't surprise me, not with the amount of spambots we regularly have to boot off the forums on audiogames.net, though I never actually realized the same people were behind full attacks on servers, I thought their main purpose was to generate E-mail or other forms of spam by posting spam links on mail, forums and other media. It's still however a pain in the rear. all the best, Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Looking For Something New to Play
Hi Tom. Castaways actually surprised me very much. i'd not been that much of a fan of resource management stratogy games before then, since most of those I'd tried had been online pvp ones like the old fantasy empires, or purely strategical military games. In those sorts of games the gameplay was entirely one way, you set stuff up then basically just leave it working and producing while you do military stuff. #what game me in castaways however, was how reactive the gameplay is and how concerned you needed to be with individual people and their fortunes. For example, say I am building a house, well once I have the resources I can take a few people off wood and stone production and make them into builders, indeed I tend to always turn my peasants into builders so that they construct stuff quickly, however if someone gets injured on the job I'll need someone els to take time out of their schedule to become a doctor. I'd love to see more of this complexity, I know for instance Aprone was considdering an actual harvest cycle with growing seasons, heck, I'd love to see the minutist aspects of life controled so that you need coblers, makers of buckits and crockery, could improve your cooking by having your blacksmith make knives and cooking pots, need to assign a midwife when one of your people had a baby, need to find medicinal herbs etc. There are just so many aspects of life Castaways could! cover, not to mention going further and onto bigger scale with what you can build. fpor me this was a totally new experience and I'd love to see more of it. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] replayability and Usa games was Re: Looking For Something New to Play
Hi Tom. I'm sorry to hear about the various problems and bugs, and in fairness no coding or writing when ill is not possible, but at the same time part of the point of my message was to offer some encouragement, albeit some encouragement with a little tinge of frustration. At this point I don't really care which! game gets practically finished, but it'd be just great to see something done and dusted and out the door. I know a lot of behind the scenes work has been done on the genesis engine etc, and that you yourself are concerned about commitements to players, but at this point we're probably at a stage where any! released game would be a good hthing. As regards atmosphere, well I agree that is another reason shades of doom is such a classic and grabbed my attention as the first audio game I played. not only did it give me access to the fps genre for the first time (a genre which I've never found visually playable), but it did it in a fantastic way that had complete creepiness, with great enemies and an engine, heck, even the first shades of doom sound when you start the game is pretty scary :D. It's just that really awsoe design quality that makes you want to replay a game. It's even hard to defign since it is something some games just have and others do not. Terraformers for example I never found half as addictve as shades of doom, despite the very superior sfx music and environment, and while I have! replayed it, I've only ever done so once. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] killing replay value - Re: replayability and Usa gameswas Re: Looking For Something New to Play
Hi Charles. While I agree some people ak for hints a little too soon, I do believe that situation is a little more complex. For example, I have seen people ask about castaways, since they just cannot get the stratogy aspect of the game out correctly, they for instance create one person of each profession and have them stand around idly. When they lose everything, they grow frustrated. In that case what is needed is not a hand holding walkthru, but some stratogy tips so that they can go off and develope their own ways of playing, and often without such tips people will abandon the game utterly. This is something I've seen very much in rpgs, stratogy games and even some of the more complex action ones too. Then, even in say chillingham style adventure games, there are points a person gets to when a puzzle becomes more frustration than reward. As I've said before, this is why I myself no longer play interactive fiction, since if the action you must take to complete something is so bloody obscure that nobody in their right mind would think about it, the game isn't! much fun. it's why, though i think grues are awsome, i am not a fan of the infocom games. Admitedly, I've found comparatively few puzzles in accessible games that are that sort of level, ()certainly the bavisoft titles and descent into madness I found easy enough), but of course other people's milage may vary. then, there are occasions when the engine just makes certain things unclear, or when you must do some slightly illogical actions. One example of this is getting the steaks from the shop lady in chillingham. Depending upon what actions you took, you need to go back several times over in order to initiate the sequence of events that gets you the steaks and will let you examine the desk. It's not thatt players are doing anything wrong, so much as the engine is making life difficult. to what extent say inquisitor falls into this catagory I don't know, but we'll see when i get the game, (Iwhich I might do tomorrow). Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] replayability and Usa games was Re: Looking For Something New to Play
hmm I am not as up with the play as I should be. It depends on the types of games that would work. python works with macs pcs both windows and linux. I know there is the mono dotnet opensource framework and thats supposed to work with everything with the same features as the windows dotnet client has. Now I have used in the past pascal and there is probably a client for all platforms. Standard c or c in general should work, linux is basically c anyway, so no big issue loads of compilers for all platforms. So a lot of stuff probably works visual basic probably won't work outside windows. Most stuff should work with windows from 98 up to server 2012, mac is slightly more tricky as is linux but I think a lot of stuff can be sourced for each os. We do have an issue with anything over that. I know we do have windows rt should we use it though no access supports = no use I'd imagine for now anyway. Mac I am not sure but there should be no issue as is linux. The iphone with restrictions may work though a lot seem to be jail breaking their units. Android is probably the option for least resistance. Its google and opensource probably has its apis somewhere online. the ios stuff if you make it by the rules needs licences by apple. and if you hack it well I don't know, I have been wanting an ios device for all the games with the reviews, but after all the hastle with all the restrictions I am not sure if I should just get one of the nexus devices. If there are sighted devs there is always xna I am not sure what we would need to run on xbox but assumedly its supposed to run on xbox 360s potentually. The rest soni etc nes whatever I am not sure about access but we already have a large extent of reach and choice on platform. ok not steam but we probably don't need that. there is also blackburry but hardly anyone uses that anyway. At 01:39 PM 3/25/2013, you wrote: Yes, from what I've seen, they aren't. Now if only we had a game engine for everyone that was inclusive of other operating systems? Would one have to own a mac to even code/compile for it? Wait, Java works on everything right? But then, most audio games use TTS that other systems don't have, so java wouldn't work well with audio games on my mac. I gave my pc to my sister, so I'll have to find a VM. Anyways, perhaps BGT could do it, but I doubt Philip would want to expand into mac stuff, since everyone seems to think that windows is all there is. I know Draconis has made an engine that is inclusive, but that is only available for them. Devin Prater r.d.t.pra...@gmail.com On Mar 24, 2013, at 7:34 PM, Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Dark, Thanks for saying that. If I can make my games enjoyable,, replayable, then I think I've succeeded as a game designer. It is the sort of games that a person plays once, completes it in a few hours, and finds they have no desire to replay the game I would consider a failure. There are, of course, a few audio games like that, but I'm glad to know my games aren't one of them. On 3/24/13, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Hi michael. I wasn't intending my comments about Tom's games to be insulting, nor would I want Tom to rush out a game on a whim that might be substandard, it's just that when talking of game design quality that gives a game that something that makes you want to replay it even after! you have played it before despite lack of secrets etc, is a quality Tom's games have very much had, (perhaps not final conflict but certainly his other games). It's like with books. Some books I read and think that's great! but they have very little reread value just because the prose aren't that interesting or the plot, while surprising the first time is really not the second time. Great books however have reread value, which is Why every few years I reread the hobbit, lotr, The silmarillion, William Horwood's first three duncton novels, since in their style, their creation of a world and their unique design they really stand out and can provide as much surprise and eloquence the second time around or even the 10th time around as the first. Beware the Grue! dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can
[Audyssey] Inquisitor, Ios or pc?
Hi. Now that my production is finished and I am no longer having to think of ways to pretend to be a snooty English Lord on stage, I would like to try this inquisitor game that people have been talking about. however, I was wondering what version to get and what the various differences were. I understand the pc version is more expensive, but is there an advantage to buying it? Since I usually have either my pc or laptop as well as my Iphone I will always have access to one system or the other so I don't see the need to buy the game on both systems. Are there any major differences or extra rewards in one version or another? Is the ios method with the touch screen harder in it's control and flicking through objects than just using the keyboard on the pc? is it possible to buy the pc version for multiple machines (since I'd like it on both my pc and laptop if I choose to get it rather than the Ios version). Any thoughts on this would be much appreciated. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] replayability and Usa games was Re: Looking For Something New to Play
to be honest it may be easier at this point if you just gave an old crappy directx8 version with all the sound as it was 3 years back to people that payed for it maybe the one you had to stop because of copywrite or its levels and change the title and drop it. I know thats probably not what you want to hear and for ages I supported you but I have moved on from that game and you probably should to. Lets face it, the espsoftworks/ james north experience has been a major changer in the history of this community and a big lesson and will always be the point or one of the points where we started trying to make things properly. I don't know about the rest but the monti/ mota game has been going far to long. And to be honest can anyone actually remember what it was about. Yes the racing game and the others james promised were a shame to loose but several years are between now and then. Yes they were good ideas still are but to be honest all that stuff has been hanging to long. I vote you just drop all james games you promised its to long in any case, and its really pushed other things away. I myself am still waiting for the second installment of stfc or whatever you finally call it. Ofcause I also await anything new that is going on. However the only thing I can remember are the people on the form complaining about each beta and everything. And while times were tough back then I feel to much time has been lost, to selvage anything. 3 story changes and a load of other stuff and then things went away. At some point to be coming back but I never was fully interested in that sort of game anyway though the racing game maybe. And to be honest we do need more sims. Even so you need to ask yourself why you are even doing these at all. These are your games, no one elses. It is all history now no matter how much cash was wasted its probably not worth it to just satisfy any other whiners on here. If others think me as been a rood nut tell me and I'll shutup however I think, enough is enough. James games should be put in a bin and left to rot. They were created before a lot of the newer tech came out and while I was really for it all 10 years back that was 10 years. And at any rate the industry seems to be basically at a standstill. A lot of stuff needs to happen before things start moving again. swamp is just about the only thing that keeps the industry active at least on the user end. Now that eventually will end, if that is all that is, it may come to pass that the audiogame market is for all perposes dead or at least stopped for now. I don't really want old games that well came out of one of the big wars that happened so long ago that I forgot what everything was about. Ofcause tom if you want to continue it should be your reason and your's alone that decides it. I think all obligations should be turfed, 10 years ago I would have preasured you day and night to do something but well. At 01:57 PM 3/25/2013, you wrote: Hi Dark, You aren't the only one who is frustrated. None more so than me since the last few months I've fallen into a kind of funk. One where time has no meaning as such. What I mean by that I might work heavily on the game on February 12, and then discover the next time I work on the game it is March 23. It doesn't seem to me like it has been that long, but it is so easy to loose track of time that days and weeks go by between updates. So much time that the game has been dragging out from months to years. Of course, the principle problem is lack of motivation. I'm no longer driven to work every available minute of every day on it so I get to it when I get to it. What makes matters worse I have not been at my best health wise anyway . Just this week my son caught a nasty cold and now has given it to me. When I have a sore throat, headache, and am coughing I'm not exactly in a mood to sit down and program for hours on end. Add in some cold medicine that makes me tired and the best thing I can do is sleep rather than work. It seems this year I have caught every cold and flu bug coming and going and I've just not felt much like working on games. I'm hoping that somehow I will be able to get back up to my usual productivity, finish these games, get them out, and won't have them hanging over my head. I'm just as eager to see them completed as most people on the list. :D All that aside I know what you mean by wishing to revisit the atmosphere of the game. Shades of Doom doesn't have a very complex storyline as games goes, but it does not need one. The lab is challenging enough with all the various monsters that keeps me coming back over and over again. On the higher difficulty levels there is no certainty that I will even complete a game without being killed off which means I am able to pit myself against the game and sometimes I win sometimes I lose. It is this degree of replay value I hope to incorporate into my own games. On 3/22/13, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Hi
Re: [Audyssey] killing replay value - Re: replayability and Usa games was Re: Looking For Something New to Play
hmmm charles thats interesting. There are 2 answers, a long slightly technical one and a shorter user type of answer. 1. we are blind everything needs to be easy because we are blind and that is the way it is. 2. Lame answer ha? THe truth is that blind games when they started were never that complex, I mean interactive fiction and some simple menu games where it was quite easy to play were my first lot I ever played running on dos. chances are thats where a lot of the beginners started. To start off with for the first 5-10 years we didn't have the tech and other junk the sighted do now. Its true we don't have everything but we use the same directx everyone uses just no graphics, we use joysticks, mice and even some form of big multiplayer the sighted use not many games have the capability but a lot do. We started with simple arcaders and board games as well as keyboard controled ones. So will we eventually be able to play the harder games, probably the mainstream stuff is superior to our own but not by much now. we are almost up to them and thats the truth. Ok, unfortunately the user base has not caught up to that or even the idea. A lot of the games we have in circulation right now are simple and use old tech though a lot are slowly being ported which will take time. So eventually I have total confordence that we will be able to solve everything without asking for it. Right now the tech is upgraded but we are not, the users or at least some of us are still running dos 3 on a 286 cpu with about 2kb ram and not the latest things. and this change may take ages to happen its slowly going on but who knows when it will fully change and there will always be newcomers. I do aggree people do ask as soon as they get stuck and I do try to nut out things if I can. At 02:13 PM 3/25/2013, you wrote: Another thing that I see all the time is this: A new game comes out at 10 this morning. By eleven, gamers are asking the list for help through something they have stumbled into. Even if I know the answer, I will not tell them yet. Part of the challenge of a game is to work on it on! your! own!!, and figure it out. If you bought a jigsaw puzzle with lettered and numbered pieces, and it came with instructions that tell you to fit A1 to A2, and below A2 you should fit B2, and so on until the puzzle is finished, what good would that be? Yet that is exactly what some blind gamers want, and I just flat don't understand this. --- Shepherds are the best beasts, but Labs are a close second. - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, March 24, 2013 7:57 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] replayability and Usa games was Re: Looking For Something New to Play Hi Dark, You aren't the only one who is frustrated. None more so than me since the last few months I've fallen into a kind of funk. One where time has no meaning as such. What I mean by that I might work heavily on the game on February 12, and then discover the next time I work on the game it is March 23. It doesn't seem to me like it has been that long, but it is so easy to loose track of time that days and weeks go by between updates. So much time that the game has been dragging out from months to years. Of course, the principle problem is lack of motivation. I'm no longer driven to work every available minute of every day on it so I get to it when I get to it. What makes matters worse I have not been at my best health wise anyway . Just this week my son caught a nasty cold and now has given it to me. When I have a sore throat, headache, and am coughing I'm not exactly in a mood to sit down and program for hours on end. Add in some cold medicine that makes me tired and the best thing I can do is sleep rather than work. It seems this year I have caught every cold and flu bug coming and going and I've just not felt much like working on games. I'm hoping that somehow I will be able to get back up to my usual productivity, finish these games, get them out, and won't have them hanging over my head. I'm just as eager to see them completed as most people on the list. :D All that aside I know what you mean by wishing to revisit the atmosphere of the game. Shades of Doom doesn't have a very complex storyline as games goes, but it does not need one. The lab is challenging enough with all the various monsters that keeps me coming back over and over again. On the higher difficulty levels there is no certainty that I will even complete a game without being killed off which means I am able to pit myself against the game and sometimes I win sometimes I lose. It is this degree of replay value I hope to incorporate into my own games. On 3/22/13, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Hi Michael. On the replayability angle, I often find that games are replayable from the perspective of reexperiencing the atmosphere or story, or just trying to best the tough challenges
Re: [Audyssey] killing replay value - Re: replayability and Usagameswas Re: Looking For Something New to Play
I can see where people get stumped by a puzzle or situation in a game, but not within 10 or 15 minutes. And, in a lot of cases, their answer is in the user's guide which they never even bother to look through. Strategy tips are one thing, solutions are another. --- Shepherds are the best beasts, but Labs are a close second. - Original Message - From: dark d...@xgam.org To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, March 24, 2013 10:33 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] killing replay value - Re: replayability and Usagameswas Re: Looking For Something New to Play Hi Charles. While I agree some people ak for hints a little too soon, I do believe that situation is a little more complex. For example, I have seen people ask about castaways, since they just cannot get the stratogy aspect of the game out correctly, they for instance create one person of each profession and have them stand around idly. When they lose everything, they grow frustrated. In that case what is needed is not a hand holding walkthru, but some stratogy tips so that they can go off and develope their own ways of playing, and often without such tips people will abandon the game utterly. This is something I've seen very much in rpgs, stratogy games and even some of the more complex action ones too. Then, even in say chillingham style adventure games, there are points a person gets to when a puzzle becomes more frustration than reward. As I've said before, this is why I myself no longer play interactive fiction, since if the action you must take to complete something is so bloody obscure that nobody in their right mind would think about it, the game isn't! much fun. it's why, though i think grues are awsome, i am not a fan of the infocom games. Admitedly, I've found comparatively few puzzles in accessible games that are that sort of level, ()certainly the bavisoft titles and descent into madness I found easy enough), but of course other people's milage may vary. then, there are occasions when the engine just makes certain things unclear, or when you must do some slightly illogical actions. One example of this is getting the steaks from the shop lady in chillingham. Depending upon what actions you took, you need to go back several times over in order to initiate the sequence of events that gets you the steaks and will let you examine the desk. It's not thatt players are doing anything wrong, so much as the engine is making life difficult. to what extent say inquisitor falls into this catagory I don't know, but we'll see when i get the game, (Iwhich I might do tomorrow). Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Inquisitor, Ios or pc?
Hi Dark, Both versions are pretty comparable. I think they have the same content. THe main determinants are price and controls. iOS has a somewhat finicky navigation system, but it isn't too difficult to learn. Mac, and presumably PC, have keyboard controls which seem a bit arbitrary but aren't bad at all. So it comes down to whichever you'd prefer really. :) Yours, Zack. On Mar 24, 2013, at 8:50 PM, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Hi. Now that my production is finished and I am no longer having to think of ways to pretend to be a snooty English Lord on stage, I would like to try this inquisitor game that people have been talking about. however, I was wondering what version to get and what the various differences were. I understand the pc version is more expensive, but is there an advantage to buying it? Since I usually have either my pc or laptop as well as my Iphone I will always have access to one system or the other so I don't see the need to buy the game on both systems. Are there any major differences or extra rewards in one version or another? Is the ios method with the touch screen harder in it's control and flicking through objects than just using the keyboard on the pc? is it possible to buy the pc version for multiple machines (since I'd like it on both my pc and laptop if I choose to get it rather than the Ios version). Any thoughts on this would be much appreciated. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
[Audyssey] catch 22 - Re: Inquisitor, Ios or pc?
Some of your questions bring up a good point. I would like to see a link to the user's guide of a game on their site, whoever the game is produced by. There are things in the user's guide that you should know before, rather than after, a game has been installed, but you don't get installation instructions and other valuable info until you no longer need it. If I am reading the user's guide, I have obviously already installed the game, right? And I don't get the installation instructions until the game has already been installed? Sort of like learning to use a computer by going through documentation you can get online using, you guessed it, the very piece of equipment you're trying to learn to use. --- Shepherds are the best beasts, but Labs are a close second. - Original Message - From: dark d...@xgam.org To: Gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, March 24, 2013 10:50 PM Subject: [Audyssey] Inquisitor, Ios or pc? Hi. Now that my production is finished and I am no longer having to think of ways to pretend to be a snooty English Lord on stage, I would like to try this inquisitor game that people have been talking about. however, I was wondering what version to get and what the various differences were. I understand the pc version is more expensive, but is there an advantage to buying it? Since I usually have either my pc or laptop as well as my Iphone I will always have access to one system or the other so I don't see the need to buy the game on both systems. Are there any major differences or extra rewards in one version or another? Is the ios method with the touch screen harder in it's control and flicking through objects than just using the keyboard on the pc? is it possible to buy the pc version for multiple machines (since I'd like it on both my pc and laptop if I choose to get it rather than the Ios version). Any thoughts on this would be much appreciated. Beware the Grue! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Inquisitor, Ios or pc?
I actually wrote to the developer a couple days back regarding wat I figured was a bug in the newest IOS version. THe way the IOS version works is that you navigate the menu by taping the screen with one finger until you find the item you want, then tap with two fingers to select it. The issue I had was that this two-finger touch worked fine on the main menu but not within the game itself. The developer told me that due to this and other bgs he wouldberemoving the IOS version from the App Store for the moment until he could fix these problems. I don't know if he'll also take downthe PCversion, but he definitely said the IOS one would be coming down. But thou must! -Original Message- From: Zachary Kline Sent: Sunday, March 24, 2013 10:23 PM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Inquisitor, Ios or pc? Hi Dark, Both versions are pretty comparable. I think they have the same content. THe main determinants are price and controls. iOS has a somewhat finicky navigation system, but it isn't too difficult to learn. Mac, and presumably PC, have keyboard controls which seem a bit arbitrary but aren't bad at all. So it comes down to whichever you'd prefer really. :) Yours, Zack. On Mar 24, 2013, at 8:50 PM, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Hi. Now that my production is finished and I am no longer having to think of ways to pretend to be a snooty English Lord on stage, I would like to try this inquisitor game that people have been talking about. however, I was wondering what version to get and what the various differences were. I understand the pc version is more expensive, but is there an advantage to buying it? Since I usually have either my pc or laptop as well as my Iphone I will always have access to one system or the other so I don't see the need to buy the game on both systems. Are there any major differences or extra rewards in one version or another? Is the ios method with the touch screen harder in it's control and flicking through objects than just using the keyboard on the pc? is it possible to buy the pc version for multiple machines (since I'd like it on both my pc and laptop if I choose to get it rather than the Ios version). Any thoughts on this would be much appreciated. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] killing replay value - Re: replayability andUsagameswas Re: Looking For Something New to Play
Well charlse, that is unfortunately true. For me at least, I actually enjoy reading the game instructions. I suppose it's because growing up, I never got to read the manuals for games, being that they were always in print and thus inaccessible to me, indeed one of the first really fun uses I got out of the internet was looking up info on some of the games I'd been playing, and learning things like the names of enemies and weapons etc. So, even though these days that is no longer an issue, for me reading a manual is all part of the anticipation of playing so it's something I always do, particularly in pc games where I need to learn the in game keys (it's not like playing games on my Snes or mega drive where I could usually just hit buttons to find out which were attack, jump, shoot etc). There are however other occasions when i've found game insturctions inadequate, indeed I can think of several devs who, while great at programming games don't find writing instruction files their main forte, and others where the instructions are unclear, (though in the latter case when compiling entries for audiogames.net I do try to include appropriate information there). As to people instantly asking questions, well while I agree there are people with little patience or ability to try, equally as you said yourself it's their own fault that such people don't get as much enjoyment out of games, and I can think of a couple of individuals I've encountered who either ask for help at every opportunity or constantly play with cheats, then are the first to winj about games being too short and easy, however I wouldn't want to generalize from a few people to the majority, especially as there are also plenty of people who genuinely get stuck, or simply don't have the experience or computer skills in games and so ask, which is of course fine. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] catch 22 - Re: Inquisitor, Ios or pc?
Hi Charlse. Yes, users guides including installation instructions always seems amusing to me too, though I imagine this comes from the old dos days in which you would! always have to read how to install the game before doing so. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Inquisitor, Ios or pc?
Hi Bryan. that sounds odd, especially since people have obviously finished the Ios version, though it might make the decision for me :d. Still, I'd like to find out first if I could. That menue nav system sounds a trifle clunky to me unless you could somehow go back through items, since if you scroll passed an item and have to get back to it, going through the hole menue again could be annoying. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
