Re: [Audyssey] Python and Interactive Fiction
Hi Willem, Thank you very much. I am happy to hear that you like having my games in your game collection. I think that my code does have a style. Just not one that would make others happy. grin Thanks again. BFN Jim IF code_works THEN don't_fix_it END IF j...@kitchensinc.net http://www.kitchensinc.net (440) 286-6920 Chardon Ohio USA --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Python and Interactive Fiction
Hi Thomas, Oh, ok, data base files. I always knew them as external supporting files. But data files sounds better than script files. As a matter of fact older Basic languages had a data statement. That is a line might look like 2012 data 5, 17, 22, 34, 99 Since VB6 doesn't support a data statement one can import that data from an external text or binary file or just hard code it into the variables where it is needed in the program. Thanks for the answer about what the text files are called. BFN Jim A PROGRAM is used to turn data into error messages. j...@kitchensinc.net http://www.kitchensinc.net (440) 286-6920 Chardon Ohio USA --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Python and Interactive Fiction
Hi Dark, I suppose. The main point of my post was simply to illistrate how a sighted person might view formatted text be it code or a written document vs a blind person views that same printed text. For example, if I get a book from the library, throw it on the scanner, usually I don't care if the OCR program preserves the formatting because my primary interest is listening to it being read by Openbook or my screen reader. The only exception to the rule would be programming books that should be preserved as closely as possible to the original text and formatting. A sighted person reading that printed book probably would have problems reading the book if it was not formatted properly. Even if that were not the case it would look, look being the important key word here, right if all that formatting etc was removed and it was just a bunch of unformatted text on a page. Cheers! On 2/18/12, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Hi Tom. The odd thing is I don't think that is! true when it comes to paragraphs and line breaks, and indeed I tend to put them in myself, sinse they do! still break things up when using a screen reader. Indeed that's why all the entries on audiogames.net, though they don't have tabulation do have headings, paragraphs and line breaks, and of course stuff like lists are still useful with a screen reader, hence why there are quite a few of those too. Beware the grue! dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Python and Interactive Fiction
Hi Jim, Well, all I can say to that is you probably don't have to worry about someone cracking it if they can't read it. Grin. The funny thing about .NET obfuscation and Java obfuscation tools is they do exactly what you described. They take variable names like player_description and shorten them to pd or whatever in order to confuse and obfuscate the code.I've read my own IL code after obfuscation and between the conversion to an intermediate language used by the .NET Framework and all the shortened variable names etc even I have troubles figuring out what a block of code does. Lol! Cheers! On 2/17/12, Jim Kitchen j...@kitchensinc.net wrote: Hi Thomas, Yep, well, there is no Jim Kitchen the third, so I don't plan on some one taking over the Kitchensinc games. I know that partially because of starting out only being able to use two letters for variable names and because space was limited, I have always been conscious of size of code and later sound files. I know that it really is no longer a problem, but I do hate to waste space. Plus typing less is a good thing for me. I would probably not like to be some one else trying to read my code though. And heck as I have mentioned, many of my VB6 games were converted from dos games and thus actually still have line numbers from BasicA and GW Basic instead of line labels like Quick Basic, VB6 etc can use. Every once in a while I will add a comment line in my code, but usually it is just a temporary place marker and I go through and delete them when I am finished with that bit of code. dim pd$(5, 15) is the global variable for the players and their 14 parts of description for the game that I am working on now. I'm sure that it would make sense to others if the variable name was more like dim PlayerDescription(5, 15) but I like less typing and as long as I know the code that is all that matters. Well that and that it compiles, runs, and does what I want it to do. BFN Jim --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Python and Interactive Fiction
Hi Jacob, Oh, yeah. So do I. Not only was it the way I was taught to program those conventions you mention at least have use to me on a day to day basis. Declaring an integer variable as iSumNumber or a string as sMyString helps me keep the variables and data types straight. Especially, in Python which doesn't need an explicit declaration of the data type. Variables just pop into existence with whatever kind of data you assign it which can get confusing, for me at least, in figuring out if I assigned an integer, float, etc to that variable. Also I've gotten in the habit of closing my blocks of code with comments as well. Since if statements, functions, loops, etc in Python have no closing braces etc I add a comment like #End if, #End loop, or #End function so I can quickly determine where one block ends and another one begins etc. While not necessary I do find it useful for my own programming needs. Cheers! On 2/17/12, Jacob Kruger jac...@mailzone.co.za wrote: Will also just bring up that, aside from formatting, commenting has always been a good thing, for sighted guys, VI developers, for sharing code, for own reviewing later on, etc. etc. What I standardly do now, at the very least is add comments to the end of code blocks, like if statements, loops, class definitions, function definitions, etc. etc., so that at the very least, when reviewing code later on, I know what I'm looking at, at the end of code blocks..smile Oh yes, and have always, even in sighted days used descriptive names for variables, data structure, etc. - you don't want to be reviewing T-SQL, and wonder what type of object/item Customers is, when it could be something like tblCustomers, qryCustomers, qryDelCustomer, qryInsertCustomers, etc. etc., and for variable names in code itself, things like dDate1, sString1, fFloat1, lList1, dcDictionary1, etc. are the types of naming conventions I make use of for variable names. Stay well Jacob Kruger Blind Biker Skype: BlindZA '...fate had broken his body, but not his spirit...' --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Python and Interactive Fiction
One other thing forgot to mention - again hyping on about edSharp for python coding...smile - is that it has keystrokes to jump to next code block, next indentation change/level, and in code like PHP, etc. it can jump to starting/ending/matching braces, etc., but anyway. Stay well Jacob Kruger Blind Biker Skype: BlindZA '...fate had broken his body, but not his spirit...' - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2012 7:53 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Python and Interactive Fiction Hi Jacob, Oh, yeah. So do I. Not only was it the way I was taught to program those conventions you mention at least have use to me on a day to day basis. Declaring an integer variable as iSumNumber or a string as sMyString helps me keep the variables and data types straight. Especially, in Python which doesn't need an explicit declaration of the data type. Variables just pop into existence with whatever kind of data you assign it which can get confusing, for me at least, in figuring out if I assigned an integer, float, etc to that variable. Also I've gotten in the habit of closing my blocks of code with comments as well. Since if statements, functions, loops, etc in Python have no closing braces etc I add a comment like #End if, #End loop, or #End function so I can quickly determine where one block ends and another one begins etc. While not necessary I do find it useful for my own programming needs. Cheers! On 2/17/12, Jacob Kruger jac...@mailzone.co.za wrote: Will also just bring up that, aside from formatting, commenting has always been a good thing, for sighted guys, VI developers, for sharing code, for own reviewing later on, etc. etc. What I standardly do now, at the very least is add comments to the end of code blocks, like if statements, loops, class definitions, function definitions, etc. etc., so that at the very least, when reviewing code later on, I know what I'm looking at, at the end of code blocks..smile Oh yes, and have always, even in sighted days used descriptive names for variables, data structure, etc. - you don't want to be reviewing T-SQL, and wonder what type of object/item Customers is, when it could be something like tblCustomers, qryCustomers, qryDelCustomer, qryInsertCustomers, etc. etc., and for variable names in code itself, things like dDate1, sString1, fFloat1, lList1, dcDictionary1, etc. are the types of naming conventions I make use of for variable names. Stay well Jacob Kruger Blind Biker Skype: BlindZA '...fate had broken his body, but not his spirit...' --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Python and Interactive Fiction
Hi Thomas, Yep, well, there is no Jim Kitchen the third, so I don't plan on some one taking over the Kitchensinc games. I know that partially because of starting out only being able to use two letters for variable names and because space was limited, I have always been conscious of size of code and later sound files. I know that it really is no longer a problem, but I do hate to waste space. Plus typing less is a good thing for me. I would probably not like to be some one else trying to read my code though. And heck as I have mentioned, many of my VB6 games were converted from dos games and thus actually still have line numbers from BasicA and GW Basic instead of line labels like Quick Basic, VB6 etc can use. Every once in a while I will add a comment line in my code, but usually it is just a temporary place marker and I go through and delete them when I am finished with that bit of code. dim pd$(5, 15) is the global variable for the players and their 14 parts of description for the game that I am working on now. I'm sure that it would make sense to others if the variable name was more like dim PlayerDescription(5, 15) but I like less typing and as long as I know the code that is all that matters. Well that and that it compiles, runs, and does what I want it to do. BFN Jim Cool! all of the hard work has paid off, my name is a household word. j...@kitchensinc.net http://www.kitchensinc.net (440) 286-6920 Chardon Ohio USA --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Python and Interactive Fiction
Hi Jim. What I find interesting is you say your code has these various complexities, yet you've written some really user friendly scripts for creating stuff like trivia files, golf courses etc, which obviously people have to be able to write in without complications. Making those could've been far more difficult than it actually is, so obviously you do do user friendly extremely when there is a good reason to :D. Beware the grue! Dark. - Original Message - From: Jim Kitchen j...@kitchensinc.net To: Thomas Ward Gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Friday, February 17, 2012 10:58 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Python and Interactive Fiction Hi Thomas, Yep, well, there is no Jim Kitchen the third, so I don't plan on some one taking over the Kitchensinc games. I know that partially because of starting out only being able to use two letters for variable names and because space was limited, I have always been conscious of size of code and later sound files. I know that it really is no longer a problem, but I do hate to waste space. Plus typing less is a good thing for me. I would probably not like to be some one else trying to read my code though. And heck as I have mentioned, many of my VB6 games were converted from dos games and thus actually still have line numbers from BasicA and GW Basic instead of line labels like Quick Basic, VB6 etc can use. Every once in a while I will add a comment line in my code, but usually it is just a temporary place marker and I go through and delete them when I am finished with that bit of code. dim pd$(5, 15) is the global variable for the players and their 14 parts of description for the game that I am working on now. I'm sure that it would make sense to others if the variable name was more like dim PlayerDescription(5, 15) but I like less typing and as long as I know the code that is all that matters. Well that and that it compiles, runs, and does what I want it to do. BFN Jim Cool! all of the hard work has paid off, my name is a household word. j...@kitchensinc.net http://www.kitchensinc.net (440) 286-6920 Chardon Ohio USA --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Python and Interactive Fiction
Hi Jim. I agree with you about coding the way you feel most comfortable with first and worrying about style afterward. I've personally found that adding some descriptive names make it easier to find bugs, but I am bad at describing something in a word or two. I do not want to imagine my game collection without your games. Very unpleasant! On 2/17/2012 12:58 PM, Jim Kitchen wrote: Hi Thomas, Yep, well, there is no Jim Kitchen the third, so I don't plan on some one taking over the Kitchensinc games. I know that partially because of starting out only being able to use two letters for variable names and because space was limited, I have always been conscious of size of code and later sound files. I know that it really is no longer a problem, but I do hate to waste space. Plus typing less is a good thing for me. I would probably not like to be some one else trying to read my code though. And heck as I have mentioned, many of my VB6 games were converted from dos games and thus actually still have line numbers from BasicA and GW Basic instead of line labels like Quick Basic, VB6 etc can use. Every once in a while I will add a comment line in my code, but usually it is just a temporary place marker and I go through and delete them when I am finished with that bit of code. dim pd$(5, 15) is the global variable for the players and their 14 parts of description for the game that I am working on now. I'm sure that it would make sense to others if the variable name was more like dim PlayerDescription(5, 15) but I like less typing and as long as I know the code that is all that matters. Well that and that it compiles, runs, and does what I want it to do. BFN Jim Cool! all of the hard work has paid off, my name is a household word. j...@kitchensinc.net http://www.kitchensinc.net (440) 286-6920 Chardon Ohio USA --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Python and Interactive Fiction
Hi Dark, Well I do try to make my games and utility programs as user friendly as possible. I think that the ease of at least getting started playing my games because of the easy interface is one thing that some people like about my games. Some though I hope are still hard to win or be real good at. I am sorry, but I do not actually know what the word often used these days, script files, refers to. I mean I write source code in VB6 and then compile it to an executable file. That's it. BFN - Original Message - Hi Jim. What I find interesting is you say your code has these various complexities, yet you've written some really user friendly scripts for creating stuff like trivia files, golf courses etc, which obviously people have to be able to write in without complications. Making those could've been far more difficult than it actually is, so obviously you do do user friendly extremely when there is a good reason to :D. Beware the grue! Dark. - Original Message - From: Jim Kitchen j...@kitchensinc.net To: Thomas Ward Gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Friday, February 17, 2012 10:58 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Python and Interactive Fiction Hi Thomas, Yep, well, there is no Jim Kitchen the third, so I don't plan on some one taking over the Kitchensinc games. I know that partially because of starting out only being able to use two letters for variable names and because space was limited, I have always been conscious of size of code and later sound files. I know that it really is no longer a problem, but I do hate to waste space. Plus typing less is a good thing for me. I would probably not like to be some one else trying to read my code though. And heck as I have mentioned, many of my VB6 games were converted from dos games and thus actually still have line numbers from BasicA and GW Basic instead of line labels like Quick Basic, VB6 etc can use. Every once in a while I will add a comment line in my code, but usually it is just a temporary place marker and I go through and delete them when I am finished with that bit of code. dim pd$(5, 15) is the global variable for the players and their 14 parts of description for the game that I am working on now. I'm sure that it would make sense to others if the variable name was more like dim PlayerDescription(5, 15) but I like less typing and as long as I know the code that is all that matters. Well that and that it compiles, runs, and does what I want it to do. BFN Jim Cool! all of the hard work has paid off, my name is a household word. j...@kitchensinc.net http://www.kitchensinc.net (440) 286-6920 Chardon Ohio USA Jim Kitchen's Inc, for games that are up to 110 percent funner to play. j...@kitchensinc.net http://www.kitchensinc.net (440) 286-6920 Chardon Ohio USA --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Python and Interactive Fiction
Hi Jim. I might be utterly wrong, but as I understand it a script file simply means a file that a user can write to get an existing program to do stuff. It's not programming, sinse what you write are basically instructions for the host program to follow, but it's a way for someone to get the program to read new content or behave in a certain way over and above what it does normally. Thus, when I type in a trivia file, q is this a question? it's an instruction for the trivia engine to speak the text, add another possible point to the over all score for the file,then display any answers that come after it. I don't need to write my own trivia game engine if I want to have a quiz, I can just write instructions for your trivia program to follow, and indeed include different content than what was there by default provided I tell the program what that is. that's as I understand it what a script is, a set of instructions to a host program that someone can write, which a program can follow, without the person having to write their own program from scratch to do everything. of course, some scripts involve programming, and some can be really complex, like the Bgt scripts, where as others can be as simple to write and understand as yours. As I said I could be wrong, but certainly when i've talked about scripts that's what I've meant. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Python and Interactive Fiction
Hi Dark, Yeah, I see your point, but the standards are there for good reason. For Instance, when I start a paragraph in html I indent the line two tabs use p align=left and then write my paragraph on the same line. Then, I close it with the /p tag. That's pretty common and the way I was trained to do it in college. The thought behind this is a uniform style across business websites, and as with programming languages those indentions I made allows a sighted web developer to quickly glance through the html code and find the beginning of paragraphs, tables, lists, etc simply based on indention. Its not strictly necessary to do this, of course, but it makes it more readable. Especially, when you have nested elements like tables that can have several columns and rows. Cheers! On 2/16/12, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Hi Tom. This all makes sense, but at least in structural terms, I have noticed there are things which can be done to make code make a bit more sense to both the writer and the reader, business models and standard aside. For example, though it is not programming code, one thing I always do when writing html is put hard returns in the places that they would have if it were a standard peace of text, even though they won't actually show up. for instance, I'll always start my new paragraphis with less than p greaterthan on a new line, and when I've finished I'll go down a line again. All my line breaks are on separate lines, as is any list item I use. there is no really logical reason for this, indeed I've seen some html that will just write paragraphs and such as one large block of text. I just personally found it easier to think about if I put in the hard returns so that when actually looking at the code, it looks the way I'd write it in text as well, and now that we've got a couple of new db editers, it's stood in good stead sinse they can look at it and instantly see what the formatting code does. I've seen similar sorts of things done when games have editable conf files, there will be one or two commented out instructions telling you what does what and how to set stuff like the variables to what you want, just to make the lives of people who might want to change their game settings easier. So, as I said, while probably there are industry standards for this and matters of indenting which, --- -unless using python, are more conventions and standards mostly intended for sighted programmers, if you want other people to read what you've done and fiddle with it, it still makes sense to try and make that as easy for them as possible. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Python and Interactive Fiction
Hi Dark, Yes and no. Its true scripts are use to extend the basic functionality of a program, but some scripting languages are full blown programming languages on their own. There are what we call embedded scripting languages, and there are runtime scripting languages. If that's confusing let me explain this a little better. Angelscript is one type of scripting language, but it has no functionality to write programs on its own. Its what we call an embedded scripting language because it was designed to be embedded into a program like BGT so you can extend the functionality of BGT. That's the kind of scripting language you were talking about, but its not the only type. Python on the other hand is also a scripting language, but it is a runtime scripting language or runtime language for short. Unlike embedded languages like Angelscript there are hundreds of functions predefined in the Python runtime to perform calculations, select random numbers, print text to the screen, get input, whatever. As a result you can develop full blown stand alone applications in Python that you couldn't in something like Angelscript. Even cooler Python can itself be embedded into a Python program to extend the basic functionality of the program. A great example of this is the NVDA screen reader. The Entire screen reader is written in pure Python except for a few libraries that had to be written in native C++ code. However, NVDA can be scripted through modules that are written in Python. This is a clear case of Python being used as a full blown programming language and as a script language at the same time. Cheers! On 2/17/12, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Hi Jim. I might be utterly wrong, but as I understand it a script file simply means a file that a user can write to get an existing program to do stuff. It's not programming, sinse what you write are basically instructions for the host program to follow, but it's a way for someone to get the program to read new content or behave in a certain way over and above what it does normally. Thus, when I type in a trivia file, q is this a question? it's an instruction for the trivia engine to speak the text, add another possible point to the over all score for the file,then display any answers that come after it. I don't need to write my own trivia game engine if I want to have a quiz, I can just write instructions for your trivia program to follow, and indeed include different content than what was there by default provided I tell the program what that is. that's as I understand it what a script is, a set of instructions to a host program that someone can write, which a program can follow, without the person having to write their own program from scratch to do everything. of course, some scripts involve programming, and some can be really complex, like the Bgt scripts, where as others can be as simple to write and understand as yours. As I said I could be wrong, but certainly when i've talked about scripts that's what I've meant. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Python and Interactive Fiction
Hi Jim, Script files are usually quick and dirty applications written in a script language like Javascript, VBScript, Python, Perl, etc that can either be embedded into an application or be used as stand alone applications. For example here is a simple Python calculator. num1 = raw_input(Enter the first number to add.) num2 = raw_input(Enter the second number to add.) sum = num1 + num2 print = The sum is + string(sum) + . Obviously, this is a very simple program, and not something you would want to write up in Visual Basic, C++, or any other full blown programming language if you can help it. However, scripting languages like Python serve this purpose nicely as you can write a quick and dirty app to add numbers, perform calculations, copy files, whatever you want without bringing to bare a full programming language. Although, Python unlike some scripting languages can be used a s a scripting language as well as a full blown programming language. Cheers! On 2/17/12, Jim Kitchen j...@kitchensinc.net wrote: Hi Dark, Well I do try to make my games and utility programs as user friendly as possible. I think that the ease of at least getting started playing my games because of the easy interface is one thing that some people like about my games. Some though I hope are still hard to win or be real good at. I am sorry, but I do not actually know what the word often used these days, script files, refers to. I mean I write source code in VB6 and then compile it to an executable file. That's it. BFN - Original Message - Hi Jim. What I find interesting is you say your code has these various complexities, yet you've written some really user friendly scripts for creating stuff like trivia files, golf courses etc, which obviously people have to be able to write in without complications. Making those could've been far more difficult than it actually is, so obviously you do do user friendly extremely when there is a good reason to :D. Beware the grue! Dark. - Original Message - From: Jim Kitchen j...@kitchensinc.net To: Thomas Ward Gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Friday, February 17, 2012 10:58 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Python and Interactive Fiction Hi Thomas, Yep, well, there is no Jim Kitchen the third, so I don't plan on some one taking over the Kitchensinc games. I know that partially because of starting out only being able to use two letters for variable names and because space was limited, I have always been conscious of size of code and later sound files. I know that it really is no longer a problem, but I do hate to waste space. Plus typing less is a good thing for me. I would probably not like to be some one else trying to read my code though. And heck as I have mentioned, many of my VB6 games were converted from dos games and thus actually still have line numbers from BasicA and GW Basic instead of line labels like Quick Basic, VB6 etc can use. Every once in a while I will add a comment line in my code, but usually it is just a temporary place marker and I go through and delete them when I am finished with that bit of code. dim pd$(5, 15) is the global variable for the players and their 14 parts of description for the game that I am working on now. I'm sure that it would make sense to others if the variable name was more like dim PlayerDescription(5, 15) but I like less typing and as long as I know the code that is all that matters. Well that and that it compiles, runs, and does what I want it to do. BFN Jim Cool! all of the hard work has paid off, my name is a household word. j...@kitchensinc.net http://www.kitchensinc.net (440) 286-6920 Chardon Ohio USA Jim Kitchen's Inc, for games that are up to 110 percent funner to play. j...@kitchensinc.net http://www.kitchensinc.net (440) 286-6920 Chardon Ohio USA --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Python and Interactive Fiction
Hi Tom. That might be business practice but to be honest it strikes me rather as overkill most of the time. For instance, I certainly don't bother adding indenting or other formatting to my thesis and probably won't until it comes time to prepare it for printing and formal submition, despite the fact I obviously expect my tutor to read draughts of it. nor would I add such stuff to anything I was writing, fiction, males or whatever unless it was an amazingly formal document such as a statement in a will, or one of the medical or legal documents my brother or my mum hve to deal with (I know they both use formatting for that purpose). Generally I put in standard paragraphs, and if I expect the thing to be overly public I'll spellcheck, but that's mostly as far as I will go, indeed people I've had dealings with seem to be okay with that, even down to university professors (none of my masters or degree essays or dissertation had tabulation, just writing in word and spellchecking, nnor was it ever suggested they should do). So, putting in tabs seems rather to me like dressing in full black tie and tale coat when a bog standard suit and tie would do. Though actually less so, sinse I rather like wearing my tale coat, even more than wearing my tux, so tend to wear it if I can possibly get away with it :D. Beware the grue! dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Python and Interactive Fiction
Hi Dark, Technically speaking the text files in Jim Kitchens games are what programmers refere to as a flat database. That's a fancey name for a text file with some data that gets read into a program or engine. They are not scripts because they don't require any programming. Names for squares on a board, questions and answers to trivia questions, whatever does not qualify as scripting. Its straight data, or in plane English information. Real scripts have, functions, variables, etc that carry out some simple instructions. For example writing the following is a script. name = raw_input(Enter your name.) print = your name is + name + . This is a script because we have a name variable, the raw_input() function, and a print statement. I.E. its a programming language, python to be exact, because I'm giving actual instructions to python.exe to do something other than straight information. Cheers! On 2/17/12, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Hi Jim. What I find interesting is you say your code has these various complexities, yet you've written some really user friendly scripts for creating stuff like trivia files, golf courses etc, which obviously people have to be able to write in without complications. Making those could've been far more difficult than it actually is, so obviously you do do user friendly extremely when there is a good reason to :D. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Python and Interactive Fiction
Hi Dark, Sure. Although, keep in mind we are also looking at this from a purely blind-centric mindset. I agree that usually it isn't necessary for someone writing a program for themselves, code they have no intention of sharing, to just forget about professional standards in formatting whatever. If we can't see it the entire concept of properly formatting code doesn't always serve us to the same purpose it does a sighted user. That said, I'm sure if I was fully sighted, programming software, then I'd appreciate formatting more because I could glance at my screen and see exactly at what scope or level I am in my program.I could actually use formatting as a programming aid/tool and therefore it would have some personal use to me. Where as it is right now I have to enable the speaking of tab indentions to check if my coding is properly formatted rather than checking my formatting to the purpose it is suppose to serve in the first place. Which is similar to your discussion of your thesis. At this point you personally have no need for special formatting because Hal will read everything the same weather it looks professionally written or is extremely sloppy. However, for a sighted user its a different experience because they expect titles to be centered, paragraphs to be indented, and a double line break between paragraphs because its easier to read and locate text with a single glance. All I am really saying here is the way we handle printed text and a sighted person handles that same printed text is different. A sighted person's eye is drawn to centered text where if we want to find the next chapter we just use a find command. An extra line break between paragraphs makes it easier to visually skip between paragraphs at a glance where when using screen readers it doesn't really make a difference if there is a line break there or not. 'We, as blind users, often give up or reject things like visual formatting simply because it has no application or use to us personally. We are resigned to formatting if and when we have to turn it into our professor, boss, or someone else who requires that you dot all your i's and cross all your t's so to speak. Cheers! On 2/17/12, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Hi Tom. That might be business practice but to be honest it strikes me rather as overkill most of the time. For instance, I certainly don't bother adding indenting or other formatting to my thesis and probably won't until it comes time to prepare it for printing and formal submition, despite the fact I obviously expect my tutor to read draughts of it. nor would I add such stuff to anything I was writing, fiction, males or whatever unless it was an amazingly formal document such as a statement in a will, or one of the medical or legal documents my brother or my mum hve to deal with (I know they both use formatting for that purpose). Generally I put in standard paragraphs, and if I expect the thing to be overly public I'll spellcheck, but that's mostly as far as I will go, indeed people I've had dealings with seem to be okay with that, even down to university professors (none of my masters or degree essays or dissertation had tabulation, just writing in word and spellchecking, nnor was it ever suggested they should do). So, putting in tabs seems rather to me like dressing in full black tie and tale coat when a bog standard suit and tie would do. Though actually less so, sinse I rather like wearing my tale coat, even more than wearing my tux, so tend to wear it if I can possibly get away with it :D. Beware the grue! dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Python and Interactive Fiction
Hi Tom. The odd thing is I don't think that is! true when it comes to paragraphs and line breaks, and indeed I tend to put them in myself, sinse they do! still break things up when using a screen reader. Indeed that's why all the entries on audiogames.net, though they don't have tabulation do have headings, paragraphs and line breaks, and of course stuff like lists are still useful with a screen reader, hence why there are quite a few of those too. Beware the grue! dark. - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2012 6:06 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Python and Interactive Fiction Hi Dark, Sure. Although, keep in mind we are also looking at this from a purely blind-centric mindset. I agree that usually it isn't necessary for someone writing a program for themselves, code they have no intention of sharing, to just forget about professional standards in formatting whatever. If we can't see it the entire concept of properly formatting code doesn't always serve us to the same purpose it does a sighted user. That said, I'm sure if I was fully sighted, programming software, then I'd appreciate formatting more because I could glance at my screen and see exactly at what scope or level I am in my program.I could actually use formatting as a programming aid/tool and therefore it would have some personal use to me. Where as it is right now I have to enable the speaking of tab indentions to check if my coding is properly formatted rather than checking my formatting to the purpose it is suppose to serve in the first place. Which is similar to your discussion of your thesis. At this point you personally have no need for special formatting because Hal will read everything the same weather it looks professionally written or is extremely sloppy. However, for a sighted user its a different experience because they expect titles to be centered, paragraphs to be indented, and a double line break between paragraphs because its easier to read and locate text with a single glance. All I am really saying here is the way we handle printed text and a sighted person handles that same printed text is different. A sighted person's eye is drawn to centered text where if we want to find the next chapter we just use a find command. An extra line break between paragraphs makes it easier to visually skip between paragraphs at a glance where when using screen readers it doesn't really make a difference if there is a line break there or not. 'We, as blind users, often give up or reject things like visual formatting simply because it has no application or use to us personally. We are resigned to formatting if and when we have to turn it into our professor, boss, or someone else who requires that you dot all your i's and cross all your t's so to speak. Cheers! On 2/17/12, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Hi Tom. That might be business practice but to be honest it strikes me rather as overkill most of the time. For instance, I certainly don't bother adding indenting or other formatting to my thesis and probably won't until it comes time to prepare it for printing and formal submition, despite the fact I obviously expect my tutor to read draughts of it. nor would I add such stuff to anything I was writing, fiction, males or whatever unless it was an amazingly formal document such as a statement in a will, or one of the medical or legal documents my brother or my mum hve to deal with (I know they both use formatting for that purpose). Generally I put in standard paragraphs, and if I expect the thing to be overly public I'll spellcheck, but that's mostly as far as I will go, indeed people I've had dealings with seem to be okay with that, even down to university professors (none of my masters or degree essays or dissertation had tabulation, just writing in word and spellchecking, nnor was it ever suggested they should do). So, putting in tabs seems rather to me like dressing in full black tie and tale coat when a bog standard suit and tie would do. Though actually less so, sinse I rather like wearing my tale coat, even more than wearing my tux, so tend to wear it if I can possibly get away with it :D. Beware the grue! dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http
Re: [Audyssey] Python and Interactive Fiction
Hi Trouble, Yeah, I was told a long time ago that the only reason they want business standard code is so that you can be replaced. Personally I can go back to code I wrote decades ago and still know exactly what I was doing. But I do know that my code is not for others. I mean the first computer that I had you could only use two letter variable names. I still do that all the time. Now if I wanted others to be able to understand and change my code I should use descriptive variable names and line labels. And VB6 doesn't make you use any indenting format or anything like that. It does though in the IDE speak your line and column if you turn on say all in Jaws. I don't though as it is not needed. BFN Jim I like Visual Basic 6.0 because I can not C. j...@kitchensinc.net http://www.kitchensinc.net (440) 286-6920 Chardon Ohio USA --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Python and Interactive Fiction
Hi Jim, Well, the hole issue of programming standards and formatting in particular has to deal with a business model approach to programming. That is if you develop software for a company you and your coworkers can all develop software in the same way, use the same standards, and it makes it easier for everyone on the team to read code they themselves did not write. Plus as you said if you are fired, quit, or need to be replaced by someone else you can because the person replacing you will be able to read and understand the code based on the standards that were set by the lead developers. Formatting is primarily there for sighted computer programmers. They can glance at the screen and see in an instance what scope a block of code is in because global scope is not indented where inner scope is indented according to the level of scope. For us, we can't see it, so unless we are following along with a braille display or have something like NVDA announce the number of indentions there is little use for us to format the code for our own personal use. Unless of course a blind developer is aiming for pro standards. Which brings us to your point. You said you can go back and read code you wrote decades ago. Of course, because you wrote it and it follows your own programming style and standards. That's fine if you are the only person to ever read it, but if another VB dev comes along and tries to update your game he or she might wonder what does this variable ab mean, and what data type is it? If it isn't properly formatted a sighted programmer won't even know what scope it belongs to without reading your entire program. Obviously, that's ok for private/personal software, but doesn't work in a business environment where everything has to be explained. If you have to be reassigned or replaced then the next programmer to step in and upgrade your code is going to be miserable if you used some shorthand that is known to you and nobody else. :D Cheers! On 2/16/12, Jim Kitchen j...@kitchensinc.net wrote: Hi Trouble, Yeah, I was told a long time ago that the only reason they want business standard code is so that you can be replaced. Personally I can go back to code I wrote decades ago and still know exactly what I was doing. But I do know that my code is not for others. I mean the first computer that I had you could only use two letter variable names. I still do that all the time. Now if I wanted others to be able to understand and change my code I should use descriptive variable names and line labels. And VB6 doesn't make you use any indenting format or anything like that. It does though in the IDE speak your line and column if you turn on say all in Jaws. I don't though as it is not needed. BFN Jim I like Visual Basic 6.0 because I can not C. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Python and Interactive Fiction
Hi Tom. This all makes sense, but at least in structural terms, I have noticed there are things which can be done to make code make a bit more sense to both the writer and the reader, business models and standard aside. For example, though it is not programming code, one thing I always do when writing html is put hard returns in the places that they would have if it were a standard peace of text, even though they won't actually show up. for instance, I'll always start my new paragraphis with less than p greaterthan on a new line, and when I've finished I'll go down a line again. All my line breaks are on separate lines, as is any list item I use. there is no really logical reason for this, indeed I've seen some html that will just write paragraphs and such as one large block of text. I just personally found it easier to think about if I put in the hard returns so that when actually looking at the code, it looks the way I'd write it in text as well, and now that we've got a couple of new db editers, it's stood in good stead sinse they can look at it and instantly see what the formatting code does. I've seen similar sorts of things done when games have editable conf files, there will be one or two commented out instructions telling you what does what and how to set stuff like the variables to what you want, just to make the lives of people who might want to change their game settings easier. So, as I said, while probably there are industry standards for this and matters of indenting which, --- -unless using python, are more conventions and standards mostly intended for sighted programmers, if you want other people to read what you've done and fiddle with it, it still makes sense to try and make that as easy for them as possible. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Python and Interactive Fiction
Will also just bring up that, aside from formatting, commenting has always been a good thing, for sighted guys, VI developers, for sharing code, for own reviewing later on, etc. etc. What I standardly do now, at the very least is add comments to the end of code blocks, like if statements, loops, class definitions, function definitions, etc. etc., so that at the very least, when reviewing code later on, I know what I'm looking at, at the end of code blocks..smile Oh yes, and have always, even in sighted days used descriptive names for variables, data structure, etc. - you don't want to be reviewing T-SQL, and wonder what type of object/item Customers is, when it could be something like tblCustomers, qryCustomers, qryDelCustomer, qryInsertCustomers, etc. etc., and for variable names in code itself, things like dDate1, sString1, fFloat1, lList1, dcDictionary1, etc. are the types of naming conventions I make use of for variable names. Stay well Jacob Kruger Blind Biker Skype: BlindZA '...fate had broken his body, but not his spirit...' - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 9:53 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Python and Interactive Fiction Hi Jim, Well, the hole issue of programming standards and formatting in particular has to deal with a business model approach to programming. That is if you develop software for a company you and your coworkers can all develop software in the same way, use the same standards, and it makes it easier for everyone on the team to read code they themselves did not write. Plus as you said if you are fired, quit, or need to be replaced by someone else you can because the person replacing you will be able to read and understand the code based on the standards that were set by the lead developers. Formatting is primarily there for sighted computer programmers. They can glance at the screen and see in an instance what scope a block of code is in because global scope is not indented where inner scope is indented according to the level of scope. For us, we can't see it, so unless we are following along with a braille display or have something like NVDA announce the number of indentions there is little use for us to format the code for our own personal use. Unless of course a blind developer is aiming for pro standards. Which brings us to your point. You said you can go back and read code you wrote decades ago. Of course, because you wrote it and it follows your own programming style and standards. That's fine if you are the only person to ever read it, but if another VB dev comes along and tries to update your game he or she might wonder what does this variable ab mean, and what data type is it? If it isn't properly formatted a sighted programmer won't even know what scope it belongs to without reading your entire program. Obviously, that's ok for private/personal software, but doesn't work in a business environment where everything has to be explained. If you have to be reassigned or replaced then the next programmer to step in and upgrade your code is going to be miserable if you used some shorthand that is known to you and nobody else. :D Cheers! On 2/16/12, Jim Kitchen j...@kitchensinc.net wrote: Hi Trouble, Yeah, I was told a long time ago that the only reason they want business standard code is so that you can be replaced. Personally I can go back to code I wrote decades ago and still know exactly what I was doing. But I do know that my code is not for others. I mean the first computer that I had you could only use two letter variable names. I still do that all the time. Now if I wanted others to be able to understand and change my code I should use descriptive variable names and line labels. And VB6 doesn't make you use any indenting format or anything like that. It does though in the IDE speak your line and column if you turn on say all in Jaws. I don't though as it is not needed. BFN Jim I like Visual Basic 6.0 because I can not C. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns
Re: [Audyssey] Python and Interactive Fiction
Guess you don't look at code sites, because half of it is not formatted at all. Python is strict when it comes to formatting, one tab or space out of place and code won't run. A lot of languages are forgiving as long as you have the syntax right. that is also where you have the most garbage code, because no one cares about how it looks except company work. The joke in the programing world is If your the only one that can read it. Then you still got a job. The more that can read it then its a school lesson. At 11:01 PM 2/14/2012, you wrote: There is nothing unfortunate whatsoever about requiring indentation. If you ever want to write code that sighted people can read and interpret, it's going to make a heck of a lot more sense to them if they can actually read the stuff. -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Thomas Ward Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2012 9:27 PM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Python and Interactive Fiction Hi Dave, Yes, unfortunately, Python still requires that you use proper indention rules when writing software. That's pretty much how it gets away without using braces, brackets, and all the other trappings of C/C++ by defining blocks of code based on indention and proper spacing. That said, once you learn how to properly format your code eventually it becomes second nature to you. I guess in that respect I'm fortunate that I learned to format code properly a long time ago, and have been doing it in Java, C++, Visual Basic, you name it for what seems like forever. After a while its so automatic to me that the fact Python absolutely requires me to indent this statement one or two tabs is nothing new. I think when it comes to Python programming NVDA has the upperhand because when you have it enabled NVDA will announce your tabbed indention as you write your code. It lets you hear how many times this or that line has been indented with the tab key so you can determine if you have indented it faar enough or not. Then, if you have access to a braille display that is even better because you can follow the formatting in braille. I don't have a braille display myself, but I've heard people who prefer programming with one for that very reason. Of course, Python is by no means the only option available here. Its merely the one I liked best. Perl is equally up to writing text adventures too, and it has a C style syntax for those people looking for a more C/C++ look and feel to the language. If indenting is an issue something like Perl might be a better substitute. Although, I haven't used Perl in so long I'm not even sure what game specific APIs and libraries are out there for Perl these days. :D Anyway, bottom line, there are quite a lot of scripting languages available Python, Perl, Ruby, Jython, TCL, etc. I'm sure if one isn't sutible there is probably another one that will suit. Its just that Python has pretty much become the adopted scripting language of choice among open source developers, and there is quite a bit of interest in creating games in Python these days. Since PyGame came out, which is a Python wrapper for SDL, there have been a number of free games for Linux produced in Python and PyGame. Python has in its own way become the Visual Basic of the open source world in large part because it was designed from the ground up to target new programmers with little to no experience. Plus SDL has always had a very simple design, that's why it is called Simple Direct Media Layer, and PyGame actually makes it even simpler. Its for reasons like that I've been turning more and more to Python for any kind of open source development I do. My game Star Trek: Final Conflict was initially written in C++, then was rewritten in C# .NET, and the new version has been written in Python. In part because I want it to run on Linux, but I must confess the fact it is simpler than either to use and speeds up development time its preferable to the commercial programming languages. Cheers! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list
Re: [Audyssey] Python and Interactive Fiction
Agreed, however, in my work, I often want to work quickly and want to know exactly where I'm placing a statement or bit of code. If I need to go through fifteen or twenty or more spaces (every time I want to edit a line at its beginning) to make sure my cursor is right at the beginning of the correct line, it's really a pain, so fortunately XCode can be smart about indention and formatting so it's not something I need to worry about. Not sure if this is straying too far off topic for the list… -Probably best for the Dev list?… Now that this has come up, am curious if XCode will auto indent Python as it does with the C style languages. -Interesting… Smiles, Cara :) --- View my Online Portfolio at: http://www.onemodelplace.com/CaraQuinn Follow me on Twitter! https://twitter.com/ModelCara On Feb 14, 2012, at 8:01 PM, Ryan Strunk wrote: There is nothing unfortunate whatsoever about requiring indentation. If you ever want to write code that sighted people can read and interpret, it's going to make a heck of a lot more sense to them if they can actually read the stuff. -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Thomas Ward Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2012 9:27 PM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Python and Interactive Fiction Hi Dave, Yes, unfortunately, Python still requires that you use proper indention rules when writing software. That's pretty much how it gets away without using braces, brackets, and all the other trappings of C/C++ by defining blocks of code based on indention and proper spacing. That said, once you learn how to properly format your code eventually it becomes second nature to you. I guess in that respect I'm fortunate that I learned to format code properly a long time ago, and have been doing it in Java, C++, Visual Basic, you name it for what seems like forever. After a while its so automatic to me that the fact Python absolutely requires me to indent this statement one or two tabs is nothing new. I think when it comes to Python programming NVDA has the upperhand because when you have it enabled NVDA will announce your tabbed indention as you write your code. It lets you hear how many times this or that line has been indented with the tab key so you can determine if you have indented it faar enough or not. Then, if you have access to a braille display that is even better because you can follow the formatting in braille. I don't have a braille display myself, but I've heard people who prefer programming with one for that very reason. Of course, Python is by no means the only option available here. Its merely the one I liked best. Perl is equally up to writing text adventures too, and it has a C style syntax for those people looking for a more C/C++ look and feel to the language. If indenting is an issue something like Perl might be a better substitute. Although, I haven't used Perl in so long I'm not even sure what game specific APIs and libraries are out there for Perl these days. :D Anyway, bottom line, there are quite a lot of scripting languages available Python, Perl, Ruby, Jython, TCL, etc. I'm sure if one isn't sutible there is probably another one that will suit. Its just that Python has pretty much become the adopted scripting language of choice among open source developers, and there is quite a bit of interest in creating games in Python these days. Since PyGame came out, which is a Python wrapper for SDL, there have been a number of free games for Linux produced in Python and PyGame. Python has in its own way become the Visual Basic of the open source world in large part because it was designed from the ground up to target new programmers with little to no experience. Plus SDL has always had a very simple design, that's why it is called Simple Direct Media Layer, and PyGame actually makes it even simpler. Its for reasons like that I've been turning more and more to Python for any kind of open source development I do. My game Star Trek: Final Conflict was initially written in C++, then was rewritten in C# .NET, and the new version has been written in Python. In part because I want it to run on Linux, but I must confess the fact it is simpler than either to use and speeds up development time its preferable to the commercial programming languages. Cheers! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can
Re: [Audyssey] Python and Interactive Fiction
I know there are many editor that have smart autoindent which is handy for python. On 2/15/2012 10:04 PM, Cara Quinn wrote: Agreed, however, in my work, I often want to work quickly and want to know exactly where I'm placing a statement or bit of code. If I need to go through fifteen or twenty or more spaces (every time I want to edit a line at its beginning) to make sure my cursor is right at the beginning of the correct line, it's really a pain, so fortunately XCode can be smart about indention and formatting so it's not something I need to worry about. Not sure if this is straying too far off topic for the list… -Probably best for the Dev list?… Now that this has come up, am curious if XCode will auto indent Python as it does with the C style languages. -Interesting… Smiles, Cara :) --- View my Online Portfolio at: http://www.onemodelplace.com/CaraQuinn Follow me on Twitter! https://twitter.com/ModelCara On Feb 14, 2012, at 8:01 PM, Ryan Strunk wrote: There is nothing unfortunate whatsoever about requiring indentation. If you ever want to write code that sighted people can read and interpret, it's going to make a heck of a lot more sense to them if they can actually read the stuff. -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Thomas Ward Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2012 9:27 PM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Python and Interactive Fiction Hi Dave, Yes, unfortunately, Python still requires that you use proper indention rules when writing software. That's pretty much how it gets away without using braces, brackets, and all the other trappings of C/C++ by defining blocks of code based on indention and proper spacing. That said, once you learn how to properly format your code eventually it becomes second nature to you. I guess in that respect I'm fortunate that I learned to format code properly a long time ago, and have been doing it in Java, C++, Visual Basic, you name it for what seems like forever. After a while its so automatic to me that the fact Python absolutely requires me to indent this statement one or two tabs is nothing new. I think when it comes to Python programming NVDA has the upperhand because when you have it enabled NVDA will announce your tabbed indention as you write your code. It lets you hear how many times this or that line has been indented with the tab key so you can determine if you have indented it faar enough or not. Then, if you have access to a braille display that is even better because you can follow the formatting in braille. I don't have a braille display myself, but I've heard people who prefer programming with one for that very reason. Of course, Python is by no means the only option available here. Its merely the one I liked best. Perl is equally up to writing text adventures too, and it has a C style syntax for those people looking for a more C/C++ look and feel to the language. If indenting is an issue something like Perl might be a better substitute. Although, I haven't used Perl in so long I'm not even sure what game specific APIs and libraries are out there for Perl these days. :D Anyway, bottom line, there are quite a lot of scripting languages available Python, Perl, Ruby, Jython, TCL, etc. I'm sure if one isn't sutible there is probably another one that will suit. Its just that Python has pretty much become the adopted scripting language of choice among open source developers, and there is quite a bit of interest in creating games in Python these days. Since PyGame came out, which is a Python wrapper for SDL, there have been a number of free games for Linux produced in Python and PyGame. Python has in its own way become the Visual Basic of the open source world in large part because it was designed from the ground up to target new programmers with little to no experience. Plus SDL has always had a very simple design, that's why it is called Simple Direct Media Layer, and PyGame actually makes it even simpler. Its for reasons like that I've been turning more and more to Python for any kind of open source development I do. My game Star Trek: Final Conflict was initially written in C++, then was rewritten in C# .NET, and the new version has been written in Python. In part because I want it to run on Linux, but I must confess the fact it is simpler than either to use and speeds up development time its preferable to the commercial programming languages. Cheers! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers
Re: [Audyssey] Python and Interactive Fiction
Hi Dark, Yeah, its quite doable. A lot of screen readers have the option to announce the formatting of a document and speak the number of tabs proceeding a line of text. Its just that it is usually disable by default, and has to be turned on in the screen reader to use it. Once you turn it on writing Python code and properly formatting it is not a big deal. Cheers! On 2/14/12, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Hi tom. hal will read number of tabs at the start of lines too, though i will confess it's a feature I've never bothered to use, and the way I have the verbosity of Hal setup to read what I've written tabs are not read by default unless I specifically use the read line key, though this could be easily changed. Jason alan once said something about writing entombed Ii in python, and including editer functions so that people could add stuff to the game, but was concerned about screen readers and reading tabs for this reason, but a couple of experiments showed it was quite possible even if you had to monkey with settings a little. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Python and Interactive Fiction
Hi Cara, Well, I don't know about XCode, since I don't use it, but there are plenty of free editors around that have automatic indention features. You might want to check the Mac apps and see if there is a Python editor around that does automatic indention. On 2/15/12, Cara Quinn caraqu...@caraquinn.com wrote: Agreed, however, in my work, I often want to work quickly and want to know exactly where I'm placing a statement or bit of code. If I need to go through fifteen or twenty or more spaces (every time I want to edit a line at its beginning) to make sure my cursor is right at the beginning of the correct line, it's really a pain, so fortunately XCode can be smart about indention and formatting so it's not something I need to worry about. Not sure if this is straying too far off topic for the list… -Probably best for the Dev list?… Now that this has come up, am curious if XCode will auto indent Python as it does with the C style languages. -Interesting… Smiles, Cara :) --- --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Python and Interactive Fiction
Hi Ryan, Yeah, I know. I was taught to format my source code along with my fellow programming students back in my college days, but the point of all that formatting is so someone sighted can read it. Which is why I said it was unfortunate. It comes down to an issue of intent and who the code is written for in the first place. Yes, were I writing something professional for a business, company, or a group of sighted programmers like myself I would certainly format everything so people can read it. However, if I'm punching out a quick and dirty script for myself, something I never intend to redistribute, then what's the sense in formatting it when I can not see it? Either way it doesn't really bother me much. I've been formatting code in various languages for a long time so the fact I have to properly format my code in Python isn't a big deal.I certainly don't have a problem doing it. Its just the issue it is not optional in Python where other languages aren't this anal about formatting. So let's not make a big deal out of an offhand comment. Cheers! On 2/14/12, Ryan Strunk ryan.str...@gmail.com wrote: There is nothing unfortunate whatsoever about requiring indentation. If you ever want to write code that sighted people can read and interpret, it's going to make a heck of a lot more sense to them if they can actually read the stuff. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Python and Interactive Fiction
In edSharp - for example, there's a keystroke for it to tell you which indent level you're at, and if you turn on indent notification, it will tell you as you move line to line if indentation levels change. Also, alt + home takes you to first actual textual character on a line. Stay well Jacob Kruger Blind Biker Skype: BlindZA '...fate had broken his body, but not his spirit...' - Original Message - From: Willem Venter dwill...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2012 11:38 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Python and Interactive Fiction I know there are many editor that have smart autoindent which is handy for python. On 2/15/2012 10:04 PM, Cara Quinn wrote: Agreed, however, in my work, I often want to work quickly and want to know exactly where I'm placing a statement or bit of code. If I need to go through fifteen or twenty or more spaces (every time I want to edit a line at its beginning) to make sure my cursor is right at the beginning of the correct line, it's really a pain, so fortunately XCode can be smart about indention and formatting so it's not something I need to worry about. Not sure if this is straying too far off topic for the list… -Probably best for the Dev list?… Now that this has come up, am curious if XCode will auto indent Python as it does with the C style languages. -Interesting… Smiles, Cara :) --- View my Online Portfolio at: http://www.onemodelplace.com/CaraQuinn Follow me on Twitter! https://twitter.com/ModelCara On Feb 14, 2012, at 8:01 PM, Ryan Strunk wrote: There is nothing unfortunate whatsoever about requiring indentation. If you ever want to write code that sighted people can read and interpret, it's going to make a heck of a lot more sense to them if they can actually read the stuff. -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Thomas Ward Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2012 9:27 PM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Python and Interactive Fiction Hi Dave, Yes, unfortunately, Python still requires that you use proper indention rules when writing software. That's pretty much how it gets away without using braces, brackets, and all the other trappings of C/C++ by defining blocks of code based on indention and proper spacing. That said, once you learn how to properly format your code eventually it becomes second nature to you. I guess in that respect I'm fortunate that I learned to format code properly a long time ago, and have been doing it in Java, C++, Visual Basic, you name it for what seems like forever. After a while its so automatic to me that the fact Python absolutely requires me to indent this statement one or two tabs is nothing new. I think when it comes to Python programming NVDA has the upperhand because when you have it enabled NVDA will announce your tabbed indention as you write your code. It lets you hear how many times this or that line has been indented with the tab key so you can determine if you have indented it faar enough or not. Then, if you have access to a braille display that is even better because you can follow the formatting in braille. I don't have a braille display myself, but I've heard people who prefer programming with one for that very reason. Of course, Python is by no means the only option available here. Its merely the one I liked best. Perl is equally up to writing text adventures too, and it has a C style syntax for those people looking for a more C/C++ look and feel to the language. If indenting is an issue something like Perl might be a better substitute. Although, I haven't used Perl in so long I'm not even sure what game specific APIs and libraries are out there for Perl these days. :D Anyway, bottom line, there are quite a lot of scripting languages available Python, Perl, Ruby, Jython, TCL, etc. I'm sure if one isn't sutible there is probably another one that will suit. Its just that Python has pretty much become the adopted scripting language of choice among open source developers, and there is quite a bit of interest in creating games in Python these days. Since PyGame came out, which is a Python wrapper for SDL, there have been a number of free games for Linux produced in Python and PyGame. Python has in its own way become the Visual Basic of the open source world in large part because it was designed from the ground up to target new programmers with little to no experience. Plus SDL has always had a very simple design, that's why it is called Simple Direct Media Layer, and PyGame actually makes it even simpler. Its for reasons like that I've been turning more and more to Python for any kind of open source development I do. My game Star Trek: Final Conflict was initially written in C++, then was rewritten in C# .NET, and the new version has been written in Python. In part because I want it to run on Linux, but I must confess
Re: [Audyssey] Python and Interactive Fiction
Hi, Not sure if this question is straying, but here goes, python the thing I didn't like about it is keeping all the tabs straight? I'm not sure if that's still relevant, but it was an impediment to me when I tried it. Dave On 2/14/12, Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com wrote: Python and Interactive Fiction Games by Thomas Ward Feb. 14, 2012 For about a year I have been searching for the best language to develop classic interactive text adventures like Zork, Arthur, Hitch Hikers to the Galaxy, and various other famous games that have been developed by interactive fiction companies and authors over the years. When it comes to writing interactive fiction there is a large variety of tools, languages, and interpreters available for an author to work with. We have specific text adventure authoring systems such as Adrift, Inform 7, and Tads as well as all the other traditional programming languages like C or C++ to choose from. The only problem was I couldn't find a language that had the right balance of ease of use but the ability to build extremely complex worlds and handle a lot of stats. So while there were many options I felt there was no middle ground which I'll explain in more detail below. However, Python seems to fit all of my requirements because its easy to use, is cross-platform, and is able to build extremely complex worlds and handle a lot of stat checks and so on. None of the other choices seemed to fit all of the requirements I was looking for. For example, I started my quest with the Adrift 4.0 Generator and Runner. To be fair it is a nice adventure system, and getting up and running with a basic text adventure is fairly straight forward and easy. The Generator allows the developer to bring up a simple dialog box and then he or she can enter the required information into various edit fields as well as check and uncheck attributes using standard checkboxes. This makes creating adventures very easy as there is no programming involved and it is a tool clearly designed for the layman. Unfortunately, its this simplicity and ease of use that I also found problematic and undesirable for my own work. Having used full blown programming languages for roughly a decade I found that Adrift didn't give me nearly the flexibility and control over the game that I wanted. I couldn't integrate a d20 stats system, nor could I write custom AI for various enemies in the game. It was simply too generic for what I had in mind for my text adventures. Another problem I found with Adrift is while the Generator and Runner are designed for the Windows operating system environment it wasn't fully supported on non-Windows platforms. The Scare interpreter is a cross-platform Adrift Runner for Mac, Linux, and Windows, but lacked many features available in the Windows Adrift Runner such as a fully operational combat system. As a result only some Adrift adventures were fully compatible with Scare, and there was no Linux or Mac Adrift creation tools that I could find. It made Adrift adventures less than fully cross-platform compatible which was another of my requirements. To compound the issue Adrift Generator is not freeware. As a result I would be paying for software that didn't really fit all of my personal requirements where other text adventure systems are open source or freeware. So it wasn't a good financial investment for me. So I turned to Inform 7 which has a huge base of supporters and developers, and seemed like a good alternative to Adrift. I have to say my experience with Inform was also mixed. It definitely was more cross-platform because the Inform development tools are available for Windows, Linux, and Mac and the free Frotz interpreter is available for just about any platform I could name. Plus interpreters like Winfrotz TTS is an added bonus because all of the text messages are automatically read aloud by Sapi compatible voices on Windows. However, in the end Inform wasn't so golden either. Although, Inform is a programming language I found it is too abstract. In attempting to make the language for non-programmers to understand I found it too verbose, and over simplistic in cases. To create a vampire you might type The vampire is a Man which creates a vampire object using the Man class in the body of your script. The problem here is that Inform only has about 16 default classes to choose from, and I'd prefer to do something like Man vampire which is the traditional way programmers declare new objects in code. In short, while I found Inform much better supported, better designed than something like Adrift, I simply did not like the language itself. Over the next few months I spent time looking at Tads, Hugo, etc. One by one I tried them, didn't like them for one reason or another, and then chose not to use them. After a while I was convinced if I wanted something more advanced I was going to have to basically write it
Re: [Audyssey] Python and Interactive Fiction
Hi Dave, Yes, unfortunately, Python still requires that you use proper indention rules when writing software. That's pretty much how it gets away without using braces, brackets, and all the other trappings of C/C++ by defining blocks of code based on indention and proper spacing. That said, once you learn how to properly format your code eventually it becomes second nature to you. I guess in that respect I'm fortunate that I learned to format code properly a long time ago, and have been doing it in Java, C++, Visual Basic, you name it for what seems like forever. After a while its so automatic to me that the fact Python absolutely requires me to indent this statement one or two tabs is nothing new. I think when it comes to Python programming NVDA has the upperhand because when you have it enabled NVDA will announce your tabbed indention as you write your code. It lets you hear how many times this or that line has been indented with the tab key so you can determine if you have indented it faar enough or not. Then, if you have access to a braille display that is even better because you can follow the formatting in braille. I don't have a braille display myself, but I've heard people who prefer programming with one for that very reason. Of course, Python is by no means the only option available here. Its merely the one I liked best. Perl is equally up to writing text adventures too, and it has a C style syntax for those people looking for a more C/C++ look and feel to the language. If indenting is an issue something like Perl might be a better substitute. Although, I haven't used Perl in so long I'm not even sure what game specific APIs and libraries are out there for Perl these days. :D Anyway, bottom line, there are quite a lot of scripting languages available Python, Perl, Ruby, Jython, TCL, etc. I'm sure if one isn't sutible there is probably another one that will suit. Its just that Python has pretty much become the adopted scripting language of choice among open source developers, and there is quite a bit of interest in creating games in Python these days. Since PyGame came out, which is a Python wrapper for SDL, there have been a number of free games for Linux produced in Python and PyGame. Python has in its own way become the Visual Basic of the open source world in large part because it was designed from the ground up to target new programmers with little to no experience. Plus SDL has always had a very simple design, that's why it is called Simple Direct Media Layer, and PyGame actually makes it even simpler. Its for reasons like that I've been turning more and more to Python for any kind of open source development I do. My game Star Trek: Final Conflict was initially written in C++, then was rewritten in C# .NET, and the new version has been written in Python. In part because I want it to run on Linux, but I must confess the fact it is simpler than either to use and speeds up development time its preferable to the commercial programming languages. Cheers! On 2/14/12, David Mehler dave.meh...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, Not sure if this question is straying, but here goes, python the thing I didn't like about it is keeping all the tabs straight? I'm not sure if that's still relevant, but it was an impediment to me when I tried it. Dave --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Python and Interactive Fiction
Hi tom. hal will read number of tabs at the start of lines too, though i will confess it's a feature I've never bothered to use, and the way I have the verbosity of Hal setup to read what I've written tabs are not read by default unless I specifically use the read line key, though this could be easily changed. Jason alan once said something about writing entombed Ii in python, and including editer functions so that people could add stuff to the game, but was concerned about screen readers and reading tabs for this reason, but a couple of experiments showed it was quite possible even if you had to monkey with settings a little. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Python and Interactive Fiction
There is nothing unfortunate whatsoever about requiring indentation. If you ever want to write code that sighted people can read and interpret, it's going to make a heck of a lot more sense to them if they can actually read the stuff. -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Thomas Ward Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2012 9:27 PM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Python and Interactive Fiction Hi Dave, Yes, unfortunately, Python still requires that you use proper indention rules when writing software. That's pretty much how it gets away without using braces, brackets, and all the other trappings of C/C++ by defining blocks of code based on indention and proper spacing. That said, once you learn how to properly format your code eventually it becomes second nature to you. I guess in that respect I'm fortunate that I learned to format code properly a long time ago, and have been doing it in Java, C++, Visual Basic, you name it for what seems like forever. After a while its so automatic to me that the fact Python absolutely requires me to indent this statement one or two tabs is nothing new. I think when it comes to Python programming NVDA has the upperhand because when you have it enabled NVDA will announce your tabbed indention as you write your code. It lets you hear how many times this or that line has been indented with the tab key so you can determine if you have indented it faar enough or not. Then, if you have access to a braille display that is even better because you can follow the formatting in braille. I don't have a braille display myself, but I've heard people who prefer programming with one for that very reason. Of course, Python is by no means the only option available here. Its merely the one I liked best. Perl is equally up to writing text adventures too, and it has a C style syntax for those people looking for a more C/C++ look and feel to the language. If indenting is an issue something like Perl might be a better substitute. Although, I haven't used Perl in so long I'm not even sure what game specific APIs and libraries are out there for Perl these days. :D Anyway, bottom line, there are quite a lot of scripting languages available Python, Perl, Ruby, Jython, TCL, etc. I'm sure if one isn't sutible there is probably another one that will suit. Its just that Python has pretty much become the adopted scripting language of choice among open source developers, and there is quite a bit of interest in creating games in Python these days. Since PyGame came out, which is a Python wrapper for SDL, there have been a number of free games for Linux produced in Python and PyGame. Python has in its own way become the Visual Basic of the open source world in large part because it was designed from the ground up to target new programmers with little to no experience. Plus SDL has always had a very simple design, that's why it is called Simple Direct Media Layer, and PyGame actually makes it even simpler. Its for reasons like that I've been turning more and more to Python for any kind of open source development I do. My game Star Trek: Final Conflict was initially written in C++, then was rewritten in C# .NET, and the new version has been written in Python. In part because I want it to run on Linux, but I must confess the fact it is simpler than either to use and speeds up development time its preferable to the commercial programming languages. Cheers! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Python and Interactive Fiction
I agree with Ryan here. Good formatting of code is like good spelling. Even if it sounds right it isn't necessarily right. It may also make your code harder to read from a screen. You can try notepad++. It supports indentation reporting. On 2/15/2012 6:01 AM, Ryan Strunk wrote: There is nothing unfortunate whatsoever about requiring indentation. If you ever want to write code that sighted people can read and interpret, it's going to make a heck of a lot more sense to them if they can actually read the stuff. -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Thomas Ward Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2012 9:27 PM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Python and Interactive Fiction Hi Dave, Yes, unfortunately, Python still requires that you use proper indention rules when writing software. That's pretty much how it gets away without using braces, brackets, and all the other trappings of C/C++ by defining blocks of code based on indention and proper spacing. That said, once you learn how to properly format your code eventually it becomes second nature to you. I guess in that respect I'm fortunate that I learned to format code properly a long time ago, and have been doing it in Java, C++, Visual Basic, you name it for what seems like forever. After a while its so automatic to me that the fact Python absolutely requires me to indent this statement one or two tabs is nothing new. I think when it comes to Python programming NVDA has the upperhand because when you have it enabled NVDA will announce your tabbed indention as you write your code. It lets you hear how many times this or that line has been indented with the tab key so you can determine if you have indented it faar enough or not. Then, if you have access to a braille display that is even better because you can follow the formatting in braille. I don't have a braille display myself, but I've heard people who prefer programming with one for that very reason. Of course, Python is by no means the only option available here. Its merely the one I liked best. Perl is equally up to writing text adventures too, and it has a C style syntax for those people looking for a more C/C++ look and feel to the language. If indenting is an issue something like Perl might be a better substitute. Although, I haven't used Perl in so long I'm not even sure what game specific APIs and libraries are out there for Perl these days. :D Anyway, bottom line, there are quite a lot of scripting languages available Python, Perl, Ruby, Jython, TCL, etc. I'm sure if one isn't sutible there is probably another one that will suit. Its just that Python has pretty much become the adopted scripting language of choice among open source developers, and there is quite a bit of interest in creating games in Python these days. Since PyGame came out, which is a Python wrapper for SDL, there have been a number of free games for Linux produced in Python and PyGame. Python has in its own way become the Visual Basic of the open source world in large part because it was designed from the ground up to target new programmers with little to no experience. Plus SDL has always had a very simple design, that's why it is called Simple Direct Media Layer, and PyGame actually makes it even simpler. Its for reasons like that I've been turning more and more to Python for any kind of open source development I do. My game Star Trek: Final Conflict was initially written in C++, then was rewritten in C# .NET, and the new version has been written in Python. In part because I want it to run on Linux, but I must confess the fact it is simpler than either to use and speeds up development time its preferable to the commercial programming languages. Cheers! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
