Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home

[Thomas Ward]

Hi Josh,

You are comparing apples to oranges here. The Vocalizer Add-on and
Leasey are completely two different types of programs, are supported
differently by NVDA, thus is a poor comparison. Let me explain.

With Leasey it is written to be a screen reader add-on. It directly
interfaces with the screen reader, and is written in the screen
reader's own scripting language. Thus it is subject to the same type
of license of the screen reader it is written for. In the case of NVDA
that would be the GPL which means it couldn't be closed source.

The Vocalizer voices are not a part of NVDA. They are a completely
separate entity legally and technically so of course can be closed
source. The only connection they have to NVDA is the Vocalizer
drivers, which by the way are open source, and are in keeping with the
NVDA license agreement.

So you see if the add-on is a module for NVDA it has to be open
source. If it is a separate program that works independent of NVDA it
can be closed source.

HTH


On 8/11/15, Josh K  wrote:
> that can't be because we have vocalizer addon for NVDA and vocalizer is
> not open source.
>
> follow me on twitter @joshknnd1982

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Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home

[Josh K]

alone
version can continue to play it as they have in the past.
The game was available for 6 years, to me this says that anyone who was
serious about purchasing it has already had ample opportunity to do so.

Despite people's frustration, I would urge people to remember that
Philip released several free games as well as the Blast Bay Game Studio.
He contributed a lot of time and energy to this community and deserves
our respect.

Cheers,
Ian Reed
Try my free games at http://BlindAudioGames.com



On 7/27/2015 1:30 PM, Scott Chesworth wrote:
Chaps, we should probably keep this discussion specific to Q9 rather
than turning it into a FS bashfest, however tempting that might be.
I'm not a mod, just felt the need to try and steer things back on
course seeing as my post seems to have sparked off this little slew of
messages.

Scott


On 7/27/15, Darren Harris  wrote:
I refuse to use jaws based on the business moddle freedom scientific
operates. I bought window eyes in 2007 and I only had to renew my SMA's
last
year. Fs will drain you of money and for what?

-Original Message-
From: Gamers [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Josh K
Sent: 27 July 2015 19:35
To: Gamers Discussion list; phi...@blastbay.com
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home

I have not used jaws in over 5 years and don't plan on going back to it.
i use NVDA and window eyes.

follow me on twitter @joshknnd1982


On 7/27/2015 2:31 PM, Scott Chesworth wrote:
Hi Philip,

I've read the AudioGames topic you linked to, and whilst I totally
understand your decision to transfer ownership as a means of being
paid for the time you've put into developing Q9, I can't help echoing
the thoughts of many in that discussion that JAWS being a requirement
for Q9 is a shame. A decade ago when JAWS was the biggest fish in the
pond, this would've made more sense, but nowadays...?

Is there no scope to offer an alternative sales channel through
Blastbay for people who don't use JAWS?

Scott


On 7/24/15, Philip Bennefall  wrote:
Hi again,

Just wanted to follow up briefly and point those who have questions as
to why I transferred the rights of Q9, to the audiogames.net topic
under
general game discussion. Hopefully I have managed to answer all the
questions there.

http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=225202#p225202

Kind regards,

Philip Bennefall

On 7/23/2015 4:17 PM, Philip Bennefall wrote:
Hi all,

I just wanted to post a quick announcement to let you all know that
Q9
is moving. From today, the Q9 action game will no longer be sold from
Blastbay Studios but will instead be available as part of the Leasey
package (www.leaseycentral.com). Of course, all existing users can
continue to play the game normally; all issued keys remain valid and
can be reused if you format your PC or buy a new one.

Kind regards,

Philip Bennefall

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Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home

[dark]

Hi Tom.

My one major issue with this is as I said that Philip's work that he 
obviously put much time and trouble into is being so devalued, and is being 
so badly curtailed for no reason.


Brian Hartgen could! still  sell the game for 20 usd as Philip did as a 
stand alone program and! give it away free with leasy if he desired, indeed 
it could be a great promo for him.


"Buy Leasy and you get this free game worth 20 usd!"

As I said though, he is just being a bloody minded arse hole  with no 
respect for what he has purchiced.
No, he  is not the first business owner to do this, nor will he be the last, 
indeed this is a classic example of what Marx called "the Alienation of 
labour" ie, someone who makes or develops or produces something being 
utterly debased from the value of that thing, and it is also typical of the 
business world that the customers and potential customers have no power in 
this dynamic whatsoever, anymore than Philip did the second he signed over 
that contract.


You are correct that unfortunately that is that, but I don't think people's 
bad feelings towards Brian Hartgen are unjustified, and personally i feel 
extremely sorry for Philip to think that his game in the future will have 
such profoundly limited availability, sinse I doubt very much anyone will! 
buy leasy just for the purposes of playing Q9, and though people might buy 
leasy and spend some minutes with the game, I'd be willing to bet that this 
won't be half as many as would do so if it were just sold without 
restriction.


Okay, end of contributions from me on this matter.

Beware the grue!

Dark. 



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Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home

[john]

The prices I was quoting were the official microsoft numbers for windows 
10 - I'm not sure about any other version or sellers.

--
From: "Thomas Ward" 
Sent: Monday, August 10, 2015 16:40
To: "Gamers Discussion list" 
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home

Hi John,

That sounds about right. Although, the pricing for Windows depends on
the retailer the person buys it from. It can be slightly higher or
cheaper depending on where one buys it.

Cheers!


On 8/10/15, john  wrote:
> I believe windows pricing is:
> $119 for home, $199 for pro
>
> ---

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Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home

[Thomas Ward]

Hi John,

That sounds about right. Although, the pricing for Windows depends on
the retailer the person buys it from. It can be slightly higher or
cheaper depending on where one buys it.

Cheers!


On 8/10/15, john  wrote:
> I believe windows pricing is:
> $119 for home, $199 for pro
>
> ---

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Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home

[Thomas Ward]

Hello Ari,

Correct. Leasey is completely closed source and NVDA is licence under
the GPL which requires most things to be open source and to really do
what Leasey does it would have to be open source. Therefore since
Leasey is a commercial project the GPL type license wouldn't allow
them to support NVDA the same way they support Jaws without also
essentially giving it away for free. At least is how I take the
situation.

Cheers!




On 8/10/15, Gmail  wrote:
> From what I heard, the developers of Leaseyo did actually approach the
> developers of NVDA about supporting it; things fell through, though, because
> NVDA requires that all their code be open source, which makes sense, and it
> seemed like the developers of Leasey either weren't willing or weren't able
> to do that.
>
>
> Thanks,
> Ari

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Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home

[john]

I believe windows pricing is:
$119 for home, $199 for pro

--
From: "Thomas Ward" 
Sent: Monday, August 10, 2015 16:01
To: "Gamers Discussion list" 
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home

Hi Dark,

I believe your Windows analogy is pretty close a comparison as we can
get. Not exactly the same situation, but close enough for comparison
that the concepts carry over.

As you said Leasy costs no more than it ever has and I believe Brian
has purchased Q9 to include in Leasey as a sort of freebie the way the
Windows games are for Windows users. Although, I believe a standard
Windows DVD costs like $125 nobody can accuse Microsoft of essentially
charging $125 for Solitaire, Hearts, Minesweeper, and their other
games simply because they are considered by Microsoft as add-ons or
freebies included with the Windows package as a whole. From their
perspective you are not so much buying those games as you are buying
an operating system complete with multiple programs such as media
players, text editors, games, web browsers, etc. To accuse them of
selling games for $125 wouldn't make sense from their point of view.

Leasey seems to be a similar situation. Brian sees, rightly or
wrongly, Q9 as being another nifty add-on to Leasey. He does not see
it as selling a game since he is selling a bunch of scripts as well as
a package or suite of programs to the end user. You buy one you get
all, and thus he sees it as a package deal even though the majority of
gamers just want the game itself.

The only thing I can think of that is sort of similar to this
situation is Internet Explorer. Long ago, we are talking the early
1990's, Internet Explorer use to be a stand alone program. A person
went out and purchased a computer with say MS Dos 6.2 and Windows 3.1
on it, and had to buy Internet Explorer separate if they wanted it.
When Windows 95 came out Microsoft bundled Internet Explorer as part
of the Windows 95 release, and stopped selling Internet Explorer to
Windows 3.1 customers. Unfair some might say, but from Microsoft's
point of view they were giving it away for free now that it was
bundled in their latest operating system rather than sold separately.
Some 20 years later nobody cares because it has for the most part all
been forgotten about, and I suspect there are many on this very list
that have never used anything prior to Windows 95 so don't know or
remember the days when Internet Explorer was not a freebie.

I said all that to make the point that Brian is undoubtedly viewing Q9
as some freebie, an add-on, to his Leasey package and does not
consider the money he is losing by not selling it separately. I
suspect that he purchased it with the soul aim of boosting sales of
Leasey, of having exclusive content, that can only be gotten by
getting Leasey. While that is rotten, unfair, sucks, I can remember
similar cases where companies like Microsoft have done the same sort
of thing but people have forgotten about it. Leasey customers are
unlikely to know or care that Q9 was once sold separately and over
time the people who know and remember that will slowly fade. Even if
they don't they have no control over the situation so at this point I
consider the matter a mute point since nobody here can make a
difference.


Cheers!


On 8/10/15, dark  wrote:
> Hi Josh.
> I've heard this arguement that "the game is now worth 200 usd" before, but
> that is just looking at it from one perspective.
> From Brian Hartgen's point of view he has bought Q9 to essentially be a
> bonus.
> It's like the solitare and other games that comes with windows. It would 
> be
>
> foolish to say that "microsoft are selling a solitare game for $300" (or
> however much a windows install costs these days), it's that microsoft are
> selling windows as the main operating system and solitare, pinball, spades
> etc come as a freee extra.
>
> That is how I believe Brian Hartgen is viewing Q9. he sells Leasy for 200
> usd which is the same price he's always sold it for, and people get a fun
> little game as a "look at this freebee!" item.
>
> The problem though is Q9 is not like solitare. it's not just a fun little
> time waster, it is a well crafted game that has had significant work put
> into it, which is exactly why I accuse Brian of devaluing what he has
> bought, indeed while I hold Philip generally blaimeless in the matter, I 
> am
>
> extremely sorry that Philip didn't sell the rights to the game to another,
> more responsable person who recognized the worth of what they had rather
> than thinking "oh game, worth not much,  I'll throw it in for free"
>
> I'm also dissappointed that this moron Brian, even though he clearly did 
> not
>
> know the value of what he had didn't change his 

Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home

[Shaun Everiss]

I agree with you tom.
I like the game, but itsno problem if its moved away somewhere.



On 10/08/2015 12:29 p.m., Thomas Ward wrote:

Hi Shaun,

That's a bit obvious. No one is complaining about Q9 but the way the
transfer was handled and the way Brian Hartgen has decided to
distribute the game now that he has it.

The point in my message you responded to is that if people don't like
the new distribution policy that the game could be cloned, a new
version developed, without the Leasey and Jaws restrictions. Obviously
the clone would not be the same as the original due to copyrights
but something very similar could be developed if that were something
someone wanted to do. I'm not sure I like the game quite that much to
rewrite it myself though.

A lot of the elements in Q9 are pretty generic. We have a forest
level, cave level, mountain level, and so forth. The enemies are
gorillas, bats, rhinos, leopards, and wolves. Weapons are mainly a
club and a slingshot. Point being that stuff is so common and generic
that it is not copyrightable. The only things that are copyrightable
is the sounds, music, and the little alien Q9 himself. If we created a
game using a caveman doing the same things the game play could be
identical to Q9 and not be considered copyright infringement. Make
sense?



On 8/8/15, Shaun Everiss  wrote:

Heck I don't think q9 was the issue.
for its time q9 rocked.
I don't know if I'd buy q9 again or a game like it.
I think the issue tom was more how it was sold and who got it.
In this case a restricted platform which is what is getting people in a
hustle about is the big thing.
I don't think people care that its sold but to someone that needs jaws
and well has a package which is quite expensive and way over the
origional game price is the problem and that it happened in a sudden
fashion.
I think I have covered all bases.
oh the archive for kitchensinc is now up and ready to rock.


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Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home

[Gmail]

ys:
>> Just to summarise, if anyone purchased a license for the game in the
>> past, of course that is still going to function. However, no further
>> standalone licenses will be issued.
>> *snip*
>> 
>> While I do understand people being frustrated that Q9 now requires Jaws
>> and Leasy to play, the people who already purchased the standalone
>> version can continue to play it as they have in the past.
>> The game was available for 6 years, to me this says that anyone who was
>> serious about purchasing it has already had ample opportunity to do so.
>> 
>> Despite people's frustration, I would urge people to remember that
>> Philip released several free games as well as the Blast Bay Game Studio.
>> He contributed a lot of time and energy to this community and deserves
>> our respect.
>> 
>> Cheers,
>> Ian Reed
>> Try my free games at http://BlindAudioGames.com
>> 
>> 
>>> On 7/27/2015 1:30 PM, Scott Chesworth wrote:
>>> Chaps, we should probably keep this discussion specific to Q9 rather
>>> than turning it into a FS bashfest, however tempting that might be.
>>> I'm not a mod, just felt the need to try and steer things back on
>>> course seeing as my post seems to have sparked off this little slew of
>>> messages.
>>> 
>>> Scott
>>> 
>>>> On 7/27/15, Darren Harris  wrote:
>>>> I refuse to use jaws based on the business moddle freedom scientific
>>>> operates. I bought window eyes in 2007 and I only had to renew my SMA's
>>>> last
>>>> year. Fs will drain you of money and for what?
>>>> 
>>>> -Original Message-
>>>> From: Gamers [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Josh K
>>>> Sent: 27 July 2015 19:35
>>>> To: Gamers Discussion list; phi...@blastbay.com
>>>> Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home
>>>> 
>>>> I have not used jaws in over 5 years and don't plan on going back to it.
>>>> i use NVDA and window eyes.
>>>> 
>>>> follow me on twitter @joshknnd1982
>>>> 
>>>>> On 7/27/2015 2:31 PM, Scott Chesworth wrote:
>>>>> Hi Philip,
>>>>> 
>>>>> I've read the AudioGames topic you linked to, and whilst I totally
>>>>> understand your decision to transfer ownership as a means of being
>>>>> paid for the time you've put into developing Q9, I can't help echoing
>>>>> the thoughts of many in that discussion that JAWS being a requirement
>>>>> for Q9 is a shame. A decade ago when JAWS was the biggest fish in the
>>>>> pond, this would've made more sense, but nowadays...?
>>>>> 
>>>>> Is there no scope to offer an alternative sales channel through
>>>>> Blastbay for people who don't use JAWS?
>>>>> 
>>>>> Scott
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On 7/24/15, Philip Bennefall  wrote:
>>>>>> Hi again,
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Just wanted to follow up briefly and point those who have questions as
>>>>>> to why I transferred the rights of Q9, to the audiogames.net topic
>>>>>> under
>>>>>> general game discussion. Hopefully I have managed to answer all the
>>>>>> questions there.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=225202#p225202
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Kind regards,
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Philip Bennefall
>>>>>>> On 7/23/2015 4:17 PM, Philip Bennefall wrote:
>>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I just wanted to post a quick announcement to let you all know that
>>>>>>> Q9
>>>>>>> is moving. From today, the Q9 action game will no longer be sold from
>>>>>>> Blastbay Studios but will instead be available as part of the Leasey
>>>>>>> package (www.leaseycentral.com). Of course, all existing users can
>>>>>>> continue to play the game normally; all issued keys remain valid and
>>>>>>> can be reused if you format your PC or buy a new one.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Kind regards,
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Philip Bennefall
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> ---
>>>>>>> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.or

Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home

[Thomas Ward]

Hi Dark,

I believe your Windows analogy is pretty close a comparison as we can
get. Not exactly the same situation, but close enough for comparison
that the concepts carry over.

As you said Leasy costs no more than it ever has and I believe Brian
has purchased Q9 to include in Leasey as a sort of freebie the way the
Windows games are for Windows users. Although, I believe a standard
Windows DVD costs like $125 nobody can accuse Microsoft of essentially
charging $125 for Solitaire, Hearts, Minesweeper, and their other
games simply because they are considered by Microsoft as add-ons or
freebies included with the Windows package as a whole. From their
perspective you are not so much buying those games as you are buying
an operating system complete with multiple programs such as media
players, text editors, games, web browsers, etc. To accuse them of
selling games for $125 wouldn't make sense from their point of view.

Leasey seems to be a similar situation. Brian sees, rightly or
wrongly, Q9 as being another nifty add-on to Leasey. He does not see
it as selling a game since he is selling a bunch of scripts as well as
a package or suite of programs to the end user. You buy one you get
all, and thus he sees it as a package deal even though the majority of
gamers just want the game itself.

The only thing I can think of that is sort of similar to this
situation is Internet Explorer. Long ago, we are talking the early
1990's, Internet Explorer use to be a stand alone program. A person
went out and purchased a computer with say MS Dos 6.2 and Windows 3.1
on it, and had to buy Internet Explorer separate if they wanted it.
When Windows 95 came out Microsoft bundled Internet Explorer as part
of the Windows 95 release, and stopped selling Internet Explorer to
Windows 3.1 customers. Unfair some might say, but from Microsoft's
point of view they were giving it away for free now that it was
bundled in their latest operating system rather than sold separately.
Some 20 years later nobody cares because it has for the most part all
been forgotten about, and I suspect there are many on this very list
that have never used anything prior to Windows 95 so don't know or
remember the days when Internet Explorer was not a freebie.

I said all that to make the point that Brian is undoubtedly viewing Q9
as some freebie, an add-on, to his Leasey package and does not
consider the money he is losing by not selling it separately. I
suspect that he purchased it with the soul aim of boosting sales of
Leasey, of having exclusive content, that can only be gotten by
getting Leasey. While that is rotten, unfair, sucks, I can remember
similar cases where companies like Microsoft have done the same sort
of thing but people have forgotten about it. Leasey customers are
unlikely to know or care that Q9 was once sold separately and over
time the people who know and remember that will slowly fade. Even if
they don't they have no control over the situation so at this point I
consider the matter a mute point since nobody here can make a
difference.


Cheers!


On 8/10/15, dark  wrote:
> Hi Josh.
> I've heard this arguement that "the game is now worth 200 usd" before, but
> that is just looking at it from one perspective.
> From Brian Hartgen's point of view he has bought Q9 to essentially be a
> bonus.
> It's like the solitare and other games that comes with windows. It would be
>
> foolish to say that "microsoft are selling a solitare game for $300" (or
> however much a windows install costs these days), it's that microsoft are
> selling windows as the main operating system and solitare, pinball, spades
> etc come as a freee extra.
>
> That is how I believe Brian Hartgen is viewing Q9. he sells Leasy for 200
> usd which is the same price he's always sold it for, and people get a fun
> little game as a "look at this freebee!" item.
>
> The problem though is Q9 is not like solitare. it's not just a fun little
> time waster, it is a well crafted game that has had significant work put
> into it, which is exactly why I accuse Brian of devaluing what he has
> bought, indeed while I hold Philip generally blaimeless in the matter, I am
>
> extremely sorry that Philip didn't sell the rights to the game to another,
> more responsable person who recognized the worth of what they had rather
> than thinking "oh game, worth not much,  I'll throw it in for free"
>
> I'm also dissappointed that this moron Brian, even though he clearly did not
>
> know the value of what he had didn't change his thinking once he recieved so
>
> many complaints. Whether he is hoping people will buy leasy just for the
> game, or whether (as I personally believe is more likely), he is sticking to
>
> his guns just to be bloody minded after recieving lots of cryticism becuase
>
> he assumes he knows best I can't say. Either way it clearly shows me that
> he's not just ignorant of games but ignorant of good business if once he
> gets something which people planely want to buy, he refuses

Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home

[Thomas Ward]

Hello Ari,

Agreed. Here in the States at least Jaws is generally purchased by
agencies for clients and I can see in certain cases Leasey being
purchased along side Jaws for JSay and other stuff that comes  bundled
with it. So in those circumstances yes Q9 might spread further than
one might assume by being bundled with Leasey.


On 8/10/15, Gmail  wrote:
> Let's be honest, though. Rehab is probably going to be getting JAWS for
> clients, and it wouldn't be too much of a stretch for them to get Leasey as
> an add-on, especially for their clients who don't know anything about
> computers. I'm not saying that what he's doing is fair at all, but I think
> that Q9 might spread further than we otherwise think.
>
>
> Thanks,
> Ari

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Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home

[Gmail]

Let's be honest, though. Rehab is probably going to be getting JAWS for 
clients, and it wouldn't be too much of a stretch for them to get Leasey as an 
add-on, especially for their clients who don't know anything about computers. 
I'm not saying that what he's doing is fair at all, but I think that Q9 might 
spread further than we otherwise think.


Thanks,
Ari
> On Jul 29, 2015, at 9:21 AM, Charles Rivard  wrote:
> 
> The only way that they will find out about this game, though, is to buy an 
> expensive software package.  That's a pretty high, and unreasonable, way to 
> find out about it.
> 
> ---
> Be positive!  When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished, 
> you! really! are! finished!
> - Original Message - From: "Nick Adamson" 
> To: "Gamers Discussion list" 
> Sent: Wednesday, July 29, 2015 1:17 AM
> Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home
> 
> 
>> Hi all.
>> The content of this thread is making me a little uncomfortable.
>> You may not agree with what has happened but encouraging piracy and personal 
>> attacks makes no one look good and especially from people normally respected 
>> in our community.
>> As there is nothing you can do about the Q9 situation why not try to see the 
>> positives. People who wouldn't normally play audio games are being 
>> introduced to them and that may lead to them finding out what else is out 
>> there.
>> Thanks.
>> Nick.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On 29 Jul 2015, at 01:40, Thomas Ward  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi Dark,
>>> 
>>> Fair enough. That seems to me to be a fair compromise.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On 7/28/15, dark  wrote:
>>>> Hi Tom.
>>>> 
>>>> I've made a practice of not deleting games that were once available but
>>>> currently are not from the db, sinse it's surprising how often old ones pop
>>>> 
>>>> up, or in the cases of some games how people manage to acquire them anyway
>>>> even if audiogames.net won't help people to do so unless the games are
>>>> officially abandonware.
>>>> Hence why the pages for the bsc titles and bavisoft games are still up.
>>>> this is what the "unknown" license type is for, ie, we don't know what has
>>>> become of the game.
>>>> 
>>>> I will not therefore remove Q9's entry, but I won't advertise sleasy 
>>>> either,
>>>> 
>>>> I will put a note to the effect the rights have been sold but the game is
>>>> legally unavailable, sinse for most intents and purposes, it is.
>>>> 
>>>> If this Brian Hartgen wants to contact me and discuss the problem, well 
>>>> I'll
>>>> 
>>>> be glad to tell him what I think.
>>>> 
>>>> Beware the grue!
>>>> 
>>>> Dark.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> ---
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>>>> please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
>>> 
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Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home

[dark]

Hi Josh.
I've heard this arguement that "the game is now worth 200 usd" before, but 
that is just looking at it from one perspective.
From Brian Hartgen's point of view he has bought Q9 to essentially be a 

bonus.
It's like the solitare and other games that comes with windows. It would be 
foolish to say that "microsoft are selling a solitare game for $300" (or 
however much a windows install costs these days), it's that microsoft are 
selling windows as the main operating system and solitare, pinball, spades 
etc come as a freee extra.


That is how I believe Brian Hartgen is viewing Q9. he sells Leasy for 200 
usd which is the same price he's always sold it for, and people get a fun 
little game as a "look at this freebee!" item.


The problem though is Q9 is not like solitare. it's not just a fun little 
time waster, it is a well crafted game that has had significant work put 
into it, which is exactly why I accuse Brian of devaluing what he has 
bought, indeed while I hold Philip generally blaimeless in the matter, I am 
extremely sorry that Philip didn't sell the rights to the game to another, 
more responsable person who recognized the worth of what they had rather 
than thinking "oh game, worth not much,  I'll throw it in for free"


I'm also dissappointed that this moron Brian, even though he clearly did not 
know the value of what he had didn't change his thinking once he recieved so 
many complaints. Whether he is hoping people will buy leasy just for the 
game, or whether (as I personally believe is more likely), he is sticking to 
his guns just to be bloody minded after recieving lots of cryticism becuase 
he assumes he knows best I can't say. Either way it clearly shows me that 
he's not just ignorant of games but ignorant of good business if once he 
gets something which people planely want to buy, he refuses to sell it 
individually.


As I said, I personally believe at this stage he's just being bloody 
mindedd, or possibly missunderstanding how many none jaws using, none leasy 
using potential customers there would be for the game if he sold it, hell he 
could always still! give it out free with leasy if he desired and! sell it 
individually.


Either way, I'm sorry Phillip sold his game to such an ignorant berk!

Beware the grue!

Dark. 



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Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home

[dark]

Hi Tom.

I know Tj was philip's first game and that later he stopped using javascript 
and maybe architecturally the system could've been programmed better, but 
the game did a lot right, indeed I bought it in 2006 when it was a 
commercial game and wasn't sorry.


Each side scrolling level was a little different, whether attacking monkies 
on vines or fighting torgons, including their leader. While I wasn't as 
taken with the sterrio targeting bits like tiger fight and the torgon battle 
with the gun, the acting and music made them work. The only two portions I 
thought were particularly off were the guess the numbers bonus game and 
honey hunt where you basically just hit one button, though I did rather like 
the honey hunt boss.
I also liked the fact that the difficulties other than easy really! got 
hard, and usually that difficulty wasn't just about speed so much as it was 
about slightly changing challenges, so a remake of tj, definitely a good 
plan.


The only thing I will say is that if a new game were a remake of tj 
specifically, it wouldn't be tj if it didn't use the same sounds and music, 
and cut scenes. Kelly, Liam and Philip all did an amazing job.


If the remake were more a sequel, then it'd still be nice to have some of 
the same elements, indeed maybe even if Philip wouldn't remake the game he 
might reprise some of his acting, same goes for Kelly though I imagine Liam 
is probably a bit busy these days with other matters.


Either way, good idea, because Tj was actually a pretty awesome game for 
what it was.


All the best,

Dark. 



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Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home

[mattias]

I think we already have a Mario?

-Ursprungligt meddelande-
Från: Gamers [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] För Josh K
Skickat: den 10 augusti 2015 07:03
Till: Gamers Discussion list 
Ämne: Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home

not another tarzan junior. How about a side scroller that combines mario and
sonic with mortal combat. And you could get all kinds of weapons like swords
and bombs. and make levels where you have to smash cars and stuff with
hammers. Or smash cars with your fish as you run bye them or jump over them.

follow me on twitter @joshknnd1982

On 8/10/2015 12:40 AM, Thomas Ward wrote:
> Hi Dark,
>
> Oh, definitely agree. I've actually been doing some thinking and I 
> think what would be cool is a modern remake or clone of Tarzan Junior 
> since presumably Philip still holds the rights and it would be easy to 
> get permission to rewrite TJ. Reason being it could be designed to use 
> similar elements of Q9 but have a much more indepth and better 
> side-scroller of Tarzan Junior. A lot of the elements that made Q9 as 
> good as it was could be carried over to the new side-scroller and 
> Brian Fartgen would have nothing to say about it.
>
> Cheers!
>
>
>
>
> On 8/10/15, dark  wrote:
>> Hi Tom.
>>
>> Well yes Q9 has the fairly standard environments, weapons and 
>> gameplay, but
>>
>> as I said it's the design here that matters. This is actually why I'd 
>> be interested if one of our more established and experienced 
>> developers worked
>>
>> on some sort of side scroller sinse funnily enough while a few have 
>> been developed I've not seen any quite as well put together as Q9 for 
>> quite some
>>
>> time.
>>
>> Adventure at C: for example has a lot of good points, the rpg stats 
>> system and mod creation of new levels not the leased, not to mention 
>> challenges etc, but there are still portions that turn into a button
masher.
>>
>> About Psycho strike I don't know, though various other attempts like 
>> Battlezone or scrolling battles have been rather rough around the 
>> edges I think mostly because people assume that creating enemies 
>> everywhere and having the player hammer the buttons is what makes a 
>> good game rather than messing with the enemy properties.
>>
>> Adventure to fate Project Alpha is extremely atmospheric and has some 
>> interesting challenges, but is fundamentally a very different game 
>> from something like Q9, closer to a side scroller adventure title, 
>> and while combat is very very quick in the birsts it occurs, it's the 
>> story and obstacles that make the difference.
>>
>> Angel gift is nothing short of amazing! from it's sound design to 
>> it's intelligent enemies, but it's fundamentally a short game, and 
>> given the massive and epic amount of sound work I'm not really surprised.
>>
>> So, oddly enough generic as Q9 is, it's been a hell of a long time 
>> sinse someone made something like it,  much less something very very 
>> well designed, indeed the only game we've had that I can really 
>> compare it to is
>>
>> Superliam, and of course a game that has maze elements with going up 
>> and down on ladders etc the way Deathmatch project alpha currently 
>> does and the
>>
>> way   the various montizuma games did is still in short supply side
scroller
>>
>> wise.
>>
>> All the best,
>>
>> Dark.
>>
>>
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Yo

Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home

[Thomas Ward]

Hi Josh,

I don't think anyone will disagree with that. It is bad marketing, but
I don't think we need to continue to belabor the point. What is done
is done and continuing to moan and groan about it isn't going to
change things. So if there is nothing more constructive to say on the
issue I think we should close this topic down as we are simply
repeating ourselves over and over.

Cheers!!


On 8/10/15, Josh K  wrote:
> well its bad marketing. Q9 is not worth $200.
>
> follow me on twitter @joshknnd1982

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Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home

[Josh K]

not another tarzan junior. How about a side scroller that combines mario 
and sonic with mortal combat. And you could get all kinds of weapons 
like swords and bombs. and make levels where you have to smash cars and 
stuff with hammers. Or smash cars with your fish as you run bye them or 
jump over them.


follow me on twitter @joshknnd1982

On 8/10/2015 12:40 AM, Thomas Ward wrote:

Hi Dark,

Oh, definitely agree. I've actually been doing some thinking and I
think what would be cool is a modern remake or clone of Tarzan Junior
since presumably Philip still holds the rights and it would be easy to
get permission to rewrite TJ. Reason being it could be designed to use
similar elements of Q9 but have a much more indepth and better
side-scroller of Tarzan Junior. A lot of the elements that made Q9 as
good as it was could be carried over to the new side-scroller and
Brian Fartgen would have nothing to say about it.

Cheers!




On 8/10/15, dark  wrote:

Hi Tom.

Well yes Q9 has the fairly standard environments, weapons and gameplay, but

as I said it's the design here that matters. This is actually why I'd be
interested if one of our more established and experienced developers worked

on some sort of side scroller sinse funnily enough while a few have been
developed I've not seen any quite as well put together as Q9 for quite some

time.

Adventure at C: for example has a lot of good points, the rpg stats system
and mod creation of new levels not the leased, not to mention challenges
etc, but there are still portions that turn into a button masher.

About Psycho strike I don't know, though various other attempts like
Battlezone or scrolling battles have been rather rough around the edges I
think mostly because people assume that creating enemies everywhere and
having the player hammer the buttons is what makes a good game rather than
messing with the enemy properties.

Adventure to fate Project Alpha is extremely atmospheric and has some
interesting challenges, but is fundamentally a very different game from
something like Q9, closer to a side scroller adventure title, and while
combat is very very quick in the birsts it occurs, it's the story and
obstacles that make the difference.

Angel gift is nothing short of amazing! from it's sound design to it's
intelligent enemies, but it's fundamentally a short game, and given the
massive and epic amount of sound work I'm not really surprised.

So, oddly enough generic as Q9 is, it's been a hell of a long time sinse
someone made something like it,  much less something very very well
designed, indeed the only game we've had that I can really compare it to is

Superliam, and of course a game that has maze elements with going up and
down on ladders etc the way Deathmatch project alpha currently does and the

way   the various montizuma games did is still in short supply side scroller

wise.

All the best,

Dark.


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Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home

[Josh K]

well its bad marketing. Q9 is not worth $200.

follow me on twitter @joshknnd1982

On 8/9/2015 8:29 PM, Thomas Ward wrote:

Hi Shaun,

That's a bit obvious. No one is complaining about Q9 but the way the
transfer was handled and the way Brian Hartgen has decided to
distribute the game now that he has it.

The point in my message you responded to is that if people don't like
the new distribution policy that the game could be cloned, a new
version developed, without the Leasey and Jaws restrictions. Obviously
the clone would not be the same as the original due to copyrights
but something very similar could be developed if that were something
someone wanted to do. I'm not sure I like the game quite that much to
rewrite it myself though.

A lot of the elements in Q9 are pretty generic. We have a forest
level, cave level, mountain level, and so forth. The enemies are
gorillas, bats, rhinos, leopards, and wolves. Weapons are mainly a
club and a slingshot. Point being that stuff is so common and generic
that it is not copyrightable. The only things that are copyrightable
is the sounds, music, and the little alien Q9 himself. If we created a
game using a caveman doing the same things the game play could be
identical to Q9 and not be considered copyright infringement. Make
sense?



On 8/8/15, Shaun Everiss  wrote:

Heck I don't think q9 was the issue.
for its time q9 rocked.
I don't know if I'd buy q9 again or a game like it.
I think the issue tom was more how it was sold and who got it.
In this case a restricted platform which is what is getting people in a
hustle about is the big thing.
I don't think people care that its sold but to someone that needs jaws
and well has a package which is quite expensive and way over the
origional game price is the problem and that it happened in a sudden
fashion.
I think I have covered all bases.
oh the archive for kitchensinc is now up and ready to rock.

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Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home

[Thomas Ward]

Hi Dark,

Oh, definitely agree. I've actually been doing some thinking and I
think what would be cool is a modern remake or clone of Tarzan Junior
since presumably Philip still holds the rights and it would be easy to
get permission to rewrite TJ. Reason being it could be designed to use
similar elements of Q9 but have a much more indepth and better
side-scroller of Tarzan Junior. A lot of the elements that made Q9 as
good as it was could be carried over to the new side-scroller and
Brian Fartgen would have nothing to say about it.

Cheers!




On 8/10/15, dark  wrote:
> Hi Tom.
>
> Well yes Q9 has the fairly standard environments, weapons and gameplay, but
>
> as I said it's the design here that matters. This is actually why I'd be
> interested if one of our more established and experienced developers worked
>
> on some sort of side scroller sinse funnily enough while a few have been
> developed I've not seen any quite as well put together as Q9 for quite some
>
> time.
>
> Adventure at C: for example has a lot of good points, the rpg stats system
> and mod creation of new levels not the leased, not to mention challenges
> etc, but there are still portions that turn into a button masher.
>
> About Psycho strike I don't know, though various other attempts like
> Battlezone or scrolling battles have been rather rough around the edges I
> think mostly because people assume that creating enemies everywhere and
> having the player hammer the buttons is what makes a good game rather than
> messing with the enemy properties.
>
> Adventure to fate Project Alpha is extremely atmospheric and has some
> interesting challenges, but is fundamentally a very different game from
> something like Q9, closer to a side scroller adventure title, and while
> combat is very very quick in the birsts it occurs, it's the story and
> obstacles that make the difference.
>
> Angel gift is nothing short of amazing! from it's sound design to it's
> intelligent enemies, but it's fundamentally a short game, and given the
> massive and epic amount of sound work I'm not really surprised.
>
> So, oddly enough generic as Q9 is, it's been a hell of a long time sinse
> someone made something like it,  much less something very very well
> designed, indeed the only game we've had that I can really compare it to is
>
> Superliam, and of course a game that has maze elements with going up and
> down on ladders etc the way Deathmatch project alpha currently does and the
>
> way   the various montizuma games did is still in short supply side scroller
>
> wise.
>
> All the best,
>
> Dark.
>
>
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Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home

[dark]

Hi Tom.

Well yes Q9 has the fairly standard environments, weapons and gameplay, but 
as I said it's the design here that matters. This is actually why I'd be 
interested if one of our more established and experienced developers worked 
on some sort of side scroller sinse funnily enough while a few have been 
developed I've not seen any quite as well put together as Q9 for quite some 
time.


Adventure at C: for example has a lot of good points, the rpg stats system 
and mod creation of new levels not the leased, not to mention challenges 
etc, but there are still portions that turn into a button masher.


About Psycho strike I don't know, though various other attempts like 
Battlezone or scrolling battles have been rather rough around the edges I 
think mostly because people assume that creating enemies everywhere and 
having the player hammer the buttons is what makes a good game rather than 
messing with the enemy properties.


Adventure to fate Project Alpha is extremely atmospheric and has some 
interesting challenges, but is fundamentally a very different game from 
something like Q9, closer to a side scroller adventure title, and while 
combat is very very quick in the birsts it occurs, it's the story and 
obstacles that make the difference.


Angel gift is nothing short of amazing! from it's sound design to it's 
intelligent enemies, but it's fundamentally a short game, and given the 
massive and epic amount of sound work I'm not really surprised.


So, oddly enough generic as Q9 is, it's been a hell of a long time sinse 
someone made something like it,  much less something very very well 
designed, indeed the only game we've had that I can really compare it to is 
Superliam, and of course a game that has maze elements with going up and 
down on ladders etc the way Deathmatch project alpha currently does and the 
way   the various montizuma games did is still in short supply side scroller 
wise.


All the best,

Dark. 



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Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home

[Thomas Ward]

Hi Shaun,

That's a bit obvious. No one is complaining about Q9 but the way the
transfer was handled and the way Brian Hartgen has decided to
distribute the game now that he has it.

The point in my message you responded to is that if people don't like
the new distribution policy that the game could be cloned, a new
version developed, without the Leasey and Jaws restrictions. Obviously
the clone would not be the same as the original due to copyrights
but something very similar could be developed if that were something
someone wanted to do. I'm not sure I like the game quite that much to
rewrite it myself though.

A lot of the elements in Q9 are pretty generic. We have a forest
level, cave level, mountain level, and so forth. The enemies are
gorillas, bats, rhinos, leopards, and wolves. Weapons are mainly a
club and a slingshot. Point being that stuff is so common and generic
that it is not copyrightable. The only things that are copyrightable
is the sounds, music, and the little alien Q9 himself. If we created a
game using a caveman doing the same things the game play could be
identical to Q9 and not be considered copyright infringement. Make
sense?



On 8/8/15, Shaun Everiss  wrote:
> Heck I don't think q9 was the issue.
> for its time q9 rocked.
> I don't know if I'd buy q9 again or a game like it.
> I think the issue tom was more how it was sold and who got it.
> In this case a restricted platform which is what is getting people in a
> hustle about is the big thing.
> I don't think people care that its sold but to someone that needs jaws
> and well has a package which is quite expensive and way over the
> origional game price is the problem and that it happened in a sudden
> fashion.
> I think I have covered all bases.
> oh the archive for kitchensinc is now up and ready to rock.

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Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home

[Thomas Ward]

Hi Bryan,

True. Not every developer does use the same programming language
and/or platform. That said, there are ways around that problem if the
developers really and truly want to work together to develop something
decent.

As with every collaboration project there would be a bit of give and
take, and some developers would have to bone up on another language
and tools which isn't that bad all things considered. An experienced
developer such as myself can grab a Teach Yourself X in 24-Hours type
book, read it, and be up and running in a new language in a week or
so. The reason being after one gets passed the unique syntax and
specific language fundamentals its the same as everything else. A
variable is a variable, a class is a class, a function is a function,
and if one knows how to program in one or more languages already
learning a new one is a piece of cake. So a collaboration isn't
totally out of the question. It is just that someone might have to be
willing to give up on one language and tools to use whatever the group
is using.

Cheers!

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Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home

[Shaun Everiss]

Heck I don't think q9 was the issue.
for its time q9 rocked.
I don't know if I'd buy q9 again or a game like it.
I think the issue tom was more how it was sold and who got it.
In this case a restricted platform which is what is getting people in a 
hustle about is the big thing.
I don't think people care that its sold but to someone that needs jaws 
and well has a package which is quite expensive and way over the 
origional game price is the problem and that it happened in a sudden 
fashion.

I think I have covered all bases.
oh the archive for kitchensinc is now up and ready to rock.



On 8/08/2015 6:01 p.m., Thomas Ward wrote:

Hi Shaun,

I'm all for the idea of a Q9 clone. A developer, whoever that would
be, could create something like Q9 and either sell it or give it away
legally. It isn't like such things haven't been done before, and the
game is generic enough that something similar can be created without
much of a dispute over copyrights.



On 7/29/15, Shaun Everiss  wrote:

I think everyone has shown themselves.
And I don't care to pirate either even though I was one a long time ago.
Fact is all other avenues were sorted and no one is shifting.
I won't publish my info on here or on the net or on the forum or put it
out for everyone to use but if someone requests this off list as a gamer
I will send it in protest because of things being unfair.

And look at what tom ward posted in the ag.net thread, unless mr ward
has changed his stance on the issue.
I do understand both sides, however with no warning well.
it doesn't matter in the long run anyway.
We will just have to create something else based on this or whatever its
not like clones havn't been done before we can do it again.


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Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home

[Bryan Peterson]

There's a whole host of problems with that idea, but I'll list one of the 
biggest ones. Not every dev uses the same programming language.




Focus your powers and prepare for buttle.
-Original Message- 
From: Devin Prater

Sent: Saturday, August 08, 2015 9:30 AM
To: Gamers Discussion list
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home

The solution to all this is to have all these young, competing developers 
team up and make something amazing and jaw-dropping for once.


Sent from my iPhone


On Jul 29, 2015, at 2:40 AM, Shaun Everiss  wrote:

well the game is old, to be honest it was fun while it lasted.
And to be honest the keys can just float round the net.
I sertainly have no issues with floating mine if someone asks for it.
As far as I care phil chose to quit the ag community and sold the game to 
someone that thought it good for business and thats it.
the current stand alone version is technically abandonware even if it 
legally isn't and especially now you can't get it anymore, blasttbay still 
has an installer and thats about it.
Leasy can't go to nvda because of licencing for opensource, though to be 
honest if it could use something like tolque which has all the interfaces 
in which some stuff I use like teamtalk does that could avoid the issue 
some what, and that is opensource library.

Ofcause thats opensource and not payed for, but even so.




On 29/07/2015 11:20 a.m., Josh K wrote:
but that's not fair! what if someone wants to buy the stand alone
version? now they cannot get it at all!

follow me on twitter @joshknnd1982


On 7/28/2015 4:43 PM, Scott Chesworth wrote:
Legally, nope.


On 7/28/15, Josh K  wrote:
can I give my q9 standard version key to people who want q9 but who
don't want to buy jaws and leesy?

follow me on twitter @joshknnd1982


On 7/28/2015 11:01 AM, dark wrote:
It is true that "new games will come"
But with the number of audio games being so small, it's always a shame
when something is lost, this is one reason why justin Dobemire got
such a lot of deserved flack for what he did to bsc games, essentially
making them legally unavailable forever more amen.

I hope as I said,  this twit who develops leasy will realize the value
of what he owns and treat it with the respect it deserves.

All the best,

Dark.
- Original Message - From: "Devin Prater"

To: "Gamers Discussion list" 
Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2015 1:01 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home



Philip legally doesn't even own the product he created anymore. There
is literally nothing he can do. He can't sell his own game, he can't
reclaim it, its just not his anymore. But y'all don't worry. New
games will come, with developers with new creativity and better
sense, and Liesy and its Jaws fetish will rise and it'll fall.

Sent from my iPhone


On Jul 27, 2015, at 1:31 PM, Scott Chesworth
 wrote:

Hi Philip,

I've read the AudioGames topic you linked to, and whilst I totally
understand your decision to transfer ownership as a means of being
paid for the time you've put into developing Q9, I can't help 
echoing
the thoughts of many in that discussion that JAWS being a 
requirement
for Q9 is a shame. A decade ago when JAWS was the biggest fish in 
the

pond, this would've made more sense, but nowadays...?

Is there no scope to offer an alternative sales channel through
Blastbay for people who don't use JAWS?

Scott


On 7/24/15, Philip Bennefall  wrote:
Hi again,

Just wanted to follow up briefly and point those who have
questions as
to why I transferred the rights of Q9, to the audiogames.net topic
under
general game discussion. Hopefully I have managed to answer all the
questions there.

http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=225202#p225202

Kind regards,

Philip Bennefall

On 7/23/2015 4:17 PM, Philip Bennefall wrote:
Hi all,

I just wanted to post a quick announcement to let you all know
that Q9
is moving. From today, the Q9 action game will no longer be sold
from
Blastbay Studios but will instead be available as part of the
Leasey
package (www.leaseycentral.com). Of course, all existing users can
continue to play the game normally; all issued keys remain valid
and
can be reused if you format your PC or buy a new one.

Kind regards,

Philip Bennefall

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Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home

[Bryan Peterson]

Probably for the simple reason that Philip sold the game to this particular 
individual.




Focus your powers and prepare for buttle.
-Original Message- 
From: Thomas Ward

Sent: Sunday, August 09, 2015 3:13 PM
To: Gamers Discussion list
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home

Hi Matthias,

True, but that is not directly Philip's fault. He sold it to Brian
Hartgen who is the one that has locked Q9 to Jaws and Leasey. There is
a difference here in who is to blame for the unfortunate state of
affairs. I'm puzzled as to why you continue to blame Philip when he no
longer owns the game any more and all this grief is being caused by
the new owner.



On 8/9/15, mattias  wrote:

But you cant buy the game without the rest jaws stuff



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Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home

[Bryan Peterson]

Which isn't Philip's fault.



Focus your powers and prepare for buttle.
-Original Message- 
From: mattias

Sent: Sunday, August 09, 2015 11:56 AM
To: 'Gamers Discussion list'
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home

But you cant buy the game without the rest jaws stuff

-Ursprungligt meddelande-
Från: Gamers [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] För Thomas Ward
Skickat: den 9 augusti 2015 18:56
Till: Gamers Discussion list 
Ämne: Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home

Hi Mattias,

While Philip may be a Jaws user I don't think this situation with Q9 has
arisen because he is "a Jaws lover." I don't think that had anything to do
with it. As Philip explained on the Audiogames.net Forum it was a simple
business arrangement where Brian Hartgen offered him an unspecified amount
of money to buy the rights to Q9 and Philip sold the game to him. Being a
Jaws lover had nothing to do with it. If you had said Brian Hartgen was a
Jaws lover I might have agreed with you.

Cheers!


On 8/9/15, mattias  wrote:

Because philip are a jaws lover


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Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home

[Dennis Towne]

Thomas,

When people are angry and need a target to lash out at, they'll find
one.  It doesn't have to make any sense, because it's not about fixing
the problem - it's about venting.

Dennis Towne

Alter Aeon MUD
http://www.alteraeon.com


On Sun, Aug 9, 2015 at 2:13 PM, Thomas Ward  wrote:
> Hi Matthias,
>
> True, but that is not directly Philip's fault. He sold it to Brian
> Hartgen who is the one that has locked Q9 to Jaws and Leasey. There is
> a difference here in who is to blame for the unfortunate state of
> affairs. I'm puzzled as to why you continue to blame Philip when he no
> longer owns the game any more and all this grief is being caused by
> the new owner.
>
>
>
> On 8/9/15, mattias  wrote:
>> But you cant buy the game without the rest jaws stuff
>>
>
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Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home

[Thomas Ward]

Hi Matthias,

True, but that is not directly Philip's fault. He sold it to Brian
Hartgen who is the one that has locked Q9 to Jaws and Leasey. There is
a difference here in who is to blame for the unfortunate state of
affairs. I'm puzzled as to why you continue to blame Philip when he no
longer owns the game any more and all this grief is being caused by
the new owner.



On 8/9/15, mattias  wrote:
> But you cant buy the game without the rest jaws stuff
>

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Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home

[dark]

Sinse it was PHilip who sold the game for years from his blastbay company 
and sinse it was Philip who made the game completely self voicing in the 
first place requiring no screen reader, if indeed "philip was a jaws lover" 
methinks it would've surfaced long ago! :D.


Indeed, this is why what Brian Hartgen is doing is so bloody stupid, he's 
taking a game which doesn't need any dependencies whatsoever, not even a 
screen reader, and effectively making it Jaws specific, indeed Leasy 
specific.


For all I admit I have had fun coming up with alternative names for Brian 
Hartgen's product, Sleazey, greasy or lazy, I actually have nothing against 
the thing, accept for this stupid and shortsighted denigration of a very 
well put together game into a pointless little extra for a few people who 
happen to buy a completely ifferent product, and denying said game to the 
much wider group of people who do not want to buy that product.


All the best,

Dark.
- Original Message - 
From: "Thomas Ward" 

To: "Gamers Discussion list" 
Sent: Sunday, August 09, 2015 5:55 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home



Hi Mattias,

While Philip may be a Jaws user I don't think this situation with Q9
has arisen because he is "a Jaws lover." I don't think that had
anything to do with it. As Philip explained on the Audiogames.net
Forum it was a simple business arrangement where Brian Hartgen offered
him an unspecified amount of money to buy the rights to Q9 and Philip
sold the game to him. Being a Jaws lover had nothing to do with it. If
you had said Brian Hartgen was a Jaws lover I might have agreed with
you.

Cheers!


On 8/9/15, mattias  wrote:

Because philip are a jaws lover


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Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home

[mattias]

But you cant buy the game without the rest jaws stuff

-Ursprungligt meddelande-
Från: Gamers [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] För Thomas Ward
Skickat: den 9 augusti 2015 18:56
Till: Gamers Discussion list 
Ämne: Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home

Hi Mattias,

While Philip may be a Jaws user I don't think this situation with Q9 has
arisen because he is "a Jaws lover." I don't think that had anything to do
with it. As Philip explained on the Audiogames.net Forum it was a simple
business arrangement where Brian Hartgen offered him an unspecified amount
of money to buy the rights to Q9 and Philip sold the game to him. Being a
Jaws lover had nothing to do with it. If you had said Brian Hartgen was a
Jaws lover I might have agreed with you.

Cheers!


On 8/9/15, mattias  wrote:
> Because philip are a jaws lover

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Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home

[Thomas Ward]

Hi Bryan,

I agree. This topic has gone about as far as it can go, and at some
point people are just spinning their wheels repeating the same old
arguments. We should begin wrapping it up and moving on to something
else.

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Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home

[Thomas Ward]

Hi Mattias,

While Philip may be a Jaws user I don't think this situation with Q9
has arisen because he is "a Jaws lover." I don't think that had
anything to do with it. As Philip explained on the Audiogames.net
Forum it was a simple business arrangement where Brian Hartgen offered
him an unspecified amount of money to buy the rights to Q9 and Philip
sold the game to him. Being a Jaws lover had nothing to do with it. If
you had said Brian Hartgen was a Jaws lover I might have agreed with
you.

Cheers!


On 8/9/15, mattias  wrote:
> Because philip are a jaws lover

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Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home

[Bryan Peterson]

Methinks perhaps this topic should be closed. All that can really be said 
about this issue has been said and then some.




Focus your powers and prepare for buttle.
-Original Message- 
From: mattias

Sent: Sunday, August 09, 2015 8:55 AM
To: 'Gamers Discussion list'
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home

Don’t know
Who is it?
But  no developers force people to use a screen reader like Philip do

-Ursprungligt meddelande-
Från: Gamers [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] För Josh K
Skickat: den 9 augusti 2015 16:49
Till: Gamers Discussion list 
Ämne: Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home

don't you mean brian hartgen?

follow me on twitter @joshknnd1982

On 8/9/2015 5:48 AM, mattias wrote:

Because philip are a jaws lover

-Ursprungligt meddelande-
Från: Gamers [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] För Brandon Keith
Biggs
Skickat: den 24 juli 2015 03:38
Till: Gamers Discussion list 
Ämne: Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home

Hello,
It seems as if Licy is just a ton of Jaws scripts combined in a
massive package.
I've never used it, but from looking at the description, and reviews,
that is what it sounds like.
Why would they want an audio game sold with it? XD thanks,

Brandon Keith Biggs <http://www.brandonkeithbiggs.com/>
On 7/24/2015 3:29 AM, Devin Prater wrote:

I believe that because Q9 was a simple arcade game, it could be a
very

well intro to playing audio games, as Licy seems to mostly be for
newer computer users.


Sent from my iPhone


On Jul 23, 2015, at 2:00 PM, john  wrote:

Interesting change. Would you be willing to elaborate a bit on why
you took this rout?

--
From: "Philip Bennefall" 
Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2015 10:17
To: "Gamers Discussion list" 
Subject: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home

Hi all,

I just wanted to post a quick announcement to let you all know that
Q9 is moving. From today, the Q9 action game will no longer be sold
from Blastbay Studios but will instead be available as part of the
Leasey package (www.leaseycentral.com). Of course, all existing
users can continue to play the game normally; all issued keys remain
valid and can be reused if you format your PC or buy a new one.

Kind regards,

Philip Bennefall

---
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Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home

[mattias]

Don’t know
Who is it?
But  no developers force people to use a screen reader like Philip do

-Ursprungligt meddelande-
Från: Gamers [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] För Josh K
Skickat: den 9 augusti 2015 16:49
Till: Gamers Discussion list 
Ämne: Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home

don't you mean brian hartgen?

follow me on twitter @joshknnd1982

On 8/9/2015 5:48 AM, mattias wrote:
> Because philip are a jaws lover
>
> -Ursprungligt meddelande-
> Från: Gamers [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] För Brandon Keith 
> Biggs
> Skickat: den 24 juli 2015 03:38
> Till: Gamers Discussion list 
> Ämne: Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home
>
> Hello,
> It seems as if Licy is just a ton of Jaws scripts combined in a 
> massive package.
> I've never used it, but from looking at the description, and reviews, 
> that is what it sounds like.
> Why would they want an audio game sold with it? XD thanks,
>
> Brandon Keith Biggs <http://www.brandonkeithbiggs.com/>
> On 7/24/2015 3:29 AM, Devin Prater wrote:
>> I believe that because Q9 was a simple arcade game, it could be a 
>> very
> well intro to playing audio games, as Licy seems to mostly be for 
> newer computer users.
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>> On Jul 23, 2015, at 2:00 PM, john  wrote:
>>>
>>> Interesting change. Would you be willing to elaborate a bit on why 
>>> you took this rout?
>>>
>>> --
>>> From: "Philip Bennefall" 
>>> Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2015 10:17
>>> To: "Gamers Discussion list" 
>>> Subject: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home
>>>
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> I just wanted to post a quick announcement to let you all know that
>>> Q9 is moving. From today, the Q9 action game will no longer be sold 
>>> from Blastbay Studios but will instead be available as part of the 
>>> Leasey package (www.leaseycentral.com). Of course, all existing 
>>> users can continue to play the game normally; all issued keys remain 
>>> valid and can be reused if you format your PC or buy a new one.
>>>
>>> Kind regards,
>>>
>>> Philip Bennefall
>>>
>>> ---
>>> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the 
>>> list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org.
>>> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at 
>>> http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
>>> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at 
>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org.
>>> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of 
>>> the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
>>>
>>>
>>> ---
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>>> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of 
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Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home

[Josh K]

don't you mean brian hartgen?

follow me on twitter @joshknnd1982

On 8/9/2015 5:48 AM, mattias wrote:

Because philip are a jaws lover

-Ursprungligt meddelande-
Från: Gamers [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] För Brandon Keith Biggs
Skickat: den 24 juli 2015 03:38
Till: Gamers Discussion list 
Ämne: Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home

Hello,
It seems as if Licy is just a ton of Jaws scripts combined in a massive
package.
I've never used it, but from looking at the description, and reviews, that
is what it sounds like.
Why would they want an audio game sold with it? XD thanks,

Brandon Keith Biggs <http://www.brandonkeithbiggs.com/>
On 7/24/2015 3:29 AM, Devin Prater wrote:

I believe that because Q9 was a simple arcade game, it could be a very

well intro to playing audio games, as Licy seems to mostly be for newer
computer users.


Sent from my iPhone


On Jul 23, 2015, at 2:00 PM, john  wrote:

Interesting change. Would you be willing to elaborate a bit on why
you took this rout?

--
From: "Philip Bennefall" 
Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2015 10:17
To: "Gamers Discussion list" 
Subject: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home

Hi all,

I just wanted to post a quick announcement to let you all know that
Q9 is moving. From today, the Q9 action game will no longer be sold
from Blastbay Studios but will instead be available as part of the
Leasey package (www.leaseycentral.com). Of course, all existing users
can continue to play the game normally; all issued keys remain valid
and can be reused if you format your PC or buy a new one.

Kind regards,

Philip Bennefall

---
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Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home

[mattias]

Because philip are a jaws lover

-Ursprungligt meddelande-
Från: Gamers [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] För Brandon Keith Biggs
Skickat: den 24 juli 2015 03:38
Till: Gamers Discussion list 
Ämne: Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home

Hello,
It seems as if Licy is just a ton of Jaws scripts combined in a massive
package.
I've never used it, but from looking at the description, and reviews, that
is what it sounds like.
Why would they want an audio game sold with it? XD thanks,

Brandon Keith Biggs <http://www.brandonkeithbiggs.com/>
On 7/24/2015 3:29 AM, Devin Prater wrote:
> I believe that because Q9 was a simple arcade game, it could be a very
well intro to playing audio games, as Licy seems to mostly be for newer
computer users.
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Jul 23, 2015, at 2:00 PM, john  wrote:
>>
>> Interesting change. Would you be willing to elaborate a bit on why 
>> you took this rout?
>>
>> --
>> From: "Philip Bennefall" 
>> Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2015 10:17
>> To: "Gamers Discussion list" 
>> Subject: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home
>>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I just wanted to post a quick announcement to let you all know that 
>> Q9 is moving. From today, the Q9 action game will no longer be sold 
>> from Blastbay Studios but will instead be available as part of the 
>> Leasey package (www.leaseycentral.com). Of course, all existing users 
>> can continue to play the game normally; all issued keys remain valid 
>> and can be reused if you format your PC or buy a new one.
>>
>> Kind regards,
>>
>> Philip Bennefall
>>
>> ---
>> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the 
>> list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org.
>> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at 
>> http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
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>> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org.
>> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the 
>> list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
>>
>>
>> ---
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Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home

[Devin Prater]

The solution to all this is to have all these young, competing developers team 
up and make something amazing and jaw-dropping for once. 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jul 29, 2015, at 2:40 AM, Shaun Everiss  wrote:
> 
> well the game is old, to be honest it was fun while it lasted.
> And to be honest the keys can just float round the net.
> I sertainly have no issues with floating mine if someone asks for it.
> As far as I care phil chose to quit the ag community and sold the game to 
> someone that thought it good for business and thats it.
> the current stand alone version is technically abandonware even if it legally 
> isn't and especially now you can't get it anymore, blasttbay still has an 
> installer and thats about it.
> Leasy can't go to nvda because of licencing for opensource, though to be 
> honest if it could use something like tolque which has all the interfaces in 
> which some stuff I use like teamtalk does that could avoid the issue some 
> what, and that is opensource library.
> Ofcause thats opensource and not payed for, but even so.
> 
> 
> 
>> On 29/07/2015 11:20 a.m., Josh K wrote:
>> but that's not fair! what if someone wants to buy the stand alone
>> version? now they cannot get it at all!
>> 
>> follow me on twitter @joshknnd1982
>> 
>>> On 7/28/2015 4:43 PM, Scott Chesworth wrote:
>>> Legally, nope.
>>> 
>>>> On 7/28/15, Josh K  wrote:
>>>> can I give my q9 standard version key to people who want q9 but who
>>>> don't want to buy jaws and leesy?
>>>> 
>>>> follow me on twitter @joshknnd1982
>>>> 
>>>>> On 7/28/2015 11:01 AM, dark wrote:
>>>>> It is true that "new games will come"
>>>>> But with the number of audio games being so small, it's always a shame
>>>>> when something is lost, this is one reason why justin Dobemire got
>>>>> such a lot of deserved flack for what he did to bsc games, essentially
>>>>> making them legally unavailable forever more amen.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I hope as I said,  this twit who develops leasy will realize the value
>>>>> of what he owns and treat it with the respect it deserves.
>>>>> 
>>>>> All the best,
>>>>> 
>>>>> Dark.
>>>>> - Original Message - From: "Devin Prater"
>>>>> 
>>>>> To: "Gamers Discussion list" 
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2015 1:01 AM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>> Philip legally doesn't even own the product he created anymore. There
>>>>>> is literally nothing he can do. He can't sell his own game, he can't
>>>>>> reclaim it, its just not his anymore. But y'all don't worry. New
>>>>>> games will come, with developers with new creativity and better
>>>>>> sense, and Liesy and its Jaws fetish will rise and it'll fall.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Jul 27, 2015, at 1:31 PM, Scott Chesworth
>>>>>>>  wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Hi Philip,
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I've read the AudioGames topic you linked to, and whilst I totally
>>>>>>> understand your decision to transfer ownership as a means of being
>>>>>>> paid for the time you've put into developing Q9, I can't help echoing
>>>>>>> the thoughts of many in that discussion that JAWS being a requirement
>>>>>>> for Q9 is a shame. A decade ago when JAWS was the biggest fish in the
>>>>>>> pond, this would've made more sense, but nowadays...?
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Is there no scope to offer an alternative sales channel through
>>>>>>> Blastbay for people who don't use JAWS?
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Scott
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On 7/24/15, Philip Bennefall  wrote:
>>>>>>>> Hi again,
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Just wanted to follow up briefly and point those who have
>>>>>>>> questions as
>>>>>>>> to why I transferred the rights of Q9, to the audiogames.net topic
>>>>>>>> under
>>>>>>

Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home

[Devin Prater]

Problem is: 
People might see what else is out there, if they explore. But Leesy isn't made 
for that. Its made to sort of lock you in, to get you with it and have all the 
tools and fun you'll ever need. So no, I doubt they'll come here, no. They'll 
stay with the games Leesy has made available to them.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jul 29, 2015, at 1:50 AM, Ian Reed  wrote:
> 
> +1 Nick Adamson.
> 
> Also remember that many developers read the audiogames.net forum and this 
> mailing list.
> Seeing how community members respond to one developer's choices is an easy 
> way to guess how they would act towards other developers whenever they find 
> something disagreeable.
> 
> Expressing frustration in a civil manner is one thing, but name calling and 
> open endorsement of piracy is entirely different.
> 
> ~ Ian Reed
> Try my free games at http://BlindAudioGames.com
> 
> 
> 
>> On 7/29/2015 12:17 AM, Nick Adamson wrote:
>> Hi all.
>> The content of this thread is making me a little uncomfortable.
>> You may not agree with what has happened but encouraging piracy and personal 
>> attacks makes no one look good and especially from people normally respected 
>> in our community.
>> As there is nothing you can do about the Q9 situation why not try to see the 
>> positives. People who wouldn't normally play audio games are being 
>> introduced to them and that may lead to them finding out what else is out 
>> there.
>> Thanks.
>> Nick.
>> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home

[Devin Prater]

It may be economically immoral, but it is not "steeling" If I steel, there is 
no other replacement. Piracy is literally copying.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jul 28, 2015, at 7:46 PM, Charles Rivard  wrote:
> 
> I would not pirate, because that is stealing.  Period.
> 
> ---
> Be positive!  When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished, 
> you! really! are! finished!
> - Original Message - From: "Devin Prater" 
> To: "Gamers Discussion list" 
> Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2015 6:24 PM
> Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home
> 
> 
>> I'm willing to bet that some cool hacker will make an add-on for NVDA to 
>> interface with that Jaws-fetish software that I can't spell. Then buying the 
>> thing wouldn't exactly be all that wasteful, although I'd rather pirate it 
>> to try it out for 30 minutes or so just to see how mind-numbingly 
>> restrictive and basic it is, than buy it, then throw it away.
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>> On Jul 28, 2015, at 4:41 PM, Thomas Ward  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi Dark,
>>> 
>>> Agreed. I wouldn't blame anyone for pirating the game in secret, and
>>> no I can't feel sorry or any sympathy for Brian Hartgen if that
>>> happens because its his own fault. Someone who clearly refuses to sell
>>> single end user licenses to include it in a more expensive product,
>>> something many people don't need, is just begging for disreputable
>>> people to rip it off as fast as possible. Although, I don't personally
>>> know of any such instances I wouldn't be surprised if this has not
>>> already happened. People won't buy Leasey just to acquire a game that
>>> use to sell for a fraction of the price. If they can they'll pirate it
>>> instead, and that is a fact.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On 7/28/15, dark  wrote:
>>>> Well Tom It's a great shame Philip couldn't sell his game to a more
>>>> deserving party, not that I blaime him for this Brian fellow's stupidity, a
>>>> 
>>>> very blind man indeed if he can't realize what he's got :D.
>>>> 
>>>> If this is truly the case I would not be sorry for someone to pirate the
>>>> game as has already happened with the Bsc titles just to keep it in the
>>>> community,  oh and no, I don't know about any pirated copies of the bsc
>>>> 
>>>> games hanging aaround, such a thing is just a supposition by me.
>>>> 
>>>> Beware the grue!
>>>> 
>>>> Dark.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> ---
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>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org.
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>>>> please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
>>>> 
>>> 
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Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home

[Thomas Ward]

Hi Bryan,

Maybe so but the fact of the matter is I get the feeling this deal
went down rather suddenly. I don't know what if any influence Philip
had over distribution of Q9 when Brian Hartgen took control of the
product, and I'm not sure he really cared about new sales that much.
The only condition I know of is that Hartgen support those who already
have keys which makes sense. As far as new sales goes I think Philip
was thinking that well had run dry as he hadn't gotten any sales for a
long time before this deal went down so probably wasn't thinking there
would be an angry mob of people wanting to buy the game on mass.

Cheers!


On 8/8/15, Bryan Peterson  wrote:
> Correction. It's Brian Hartgen. Personally if it had been my product I would
>
> have set certain conditions before agreeing to the sale. Well one at any
> rate, and that would have been that the game also needed to be available as
>
> a standalone for those who couldn't or didn't want to spend a hundred or
> more dollars for the entire package.
>
>
>
> Focus your powers and prepare for buttle.

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Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home

[Thomas Ward]

Hi Dark,

I agree with all your points. Although, Q9 is a simple side-scroller
it was well thought out and well designed from a development
standpoint. It had good game mechanics, good music, good sounds, a bit
of light humor, and a lot of beginners just aren't quite able to
deliver that quality. The reason it was such a good game is that
Philip wasn't a newbie, had in fact developed other games before, and
thus had more skill and experience than your average newbie. Plus he
was willing to put more money into the project thus was able to buy
high quality sounds and music. Q9 is an example of what can be done
with experience and a bit of money on a developer's side.

As for my surprise when it was released that was because I have played
all kinds of arcade games from the 80's and Q9 reminded me a lot of
what was available 30 years ago, and that is not a bad thing. Although
simple Q9 played quite a bit like classic arcade games such as
Pitfall, and that made it special and unique since I have not found
many audio games that reminds me so much of mainstream games. It is
not easy to capture that nostalgia and exact feeling of yesteryear and
Q9 did it for me.


On 8/8/15, dark  wrote:
> Hi Tom.
>
> In light of this debate, I did go and play Q9, and one thing struck me. Lots
>
> of people have tried! to develop games like Q9 but not many have been as
> successful, look at games like Battle Zone, indeed I would say that these
> are probably the most common type of audiogames people first try to make
> with Bgt and I've seen plenty of practice games and works in progress over
> on the audiogames.net forum that have employed the same idea. Yes, the 1D
> side scroller concept is very simple, but Q9 executed it particularly well,
>
> with the properties of how the attacks and enemies worked, the great sound
> and music, and Philip's extremely funny acting.
>
> Could someone create a similar game in the future? very probably, however
> the number of people who have tried and not quite succeeded makes me think
> that there was a lot more care and craftsmanship in Q9 than the phrase
> "simple side scroller" would imply, which is precisely why it's sad that in
>
> future the game's availability will be so restricted thanks to one person's
>
> greed.
>
> As I said previously, it's the very disrespect to Philip's great work on Q9
>
> essentially turning a stand alone game into just an extra freeby for people
>
> who buy a very specific software package that gets up my nose, and I'm sorry
>
> that Philip didn't sell the rights to his game to someone more perceptive.
>
> There really isn't much else to add to the hating on Greasy and it's
> developer that has not been said, my point however is that even a simple
> side scroller like Q9 requires quite some design, and Q9 had that design.
>
> ?
>
> For example, enemy movement speed. I loved the points in Q9 when you'd be
> fighting wolves in the cave but then have a bear coming to get you. The bear
>
> moved slowly, but you couldn't generally inflict damage on it without it
> damaging you first, you thus had to coordinate your quick attacks against
> the wolves, the encroaching bear, and any bats in the area. Thus, even
> though Q9 was a side scroller with not much by way of enemey attack
> properties to play with, it still required you to judge a number of factors
>
> together, not just hear, react and hit as quickly as possible, not to
> mention preserving amo.
>
> Whether the most recent entry in the side scroller category, Psycho strike
> has this level of design I don't know sinse I'm still waiting for the Xp
> issue to be fixed with the game in order to try it, but undoubtedly it's the
>
> design that went into Q9 that made it such a major release.
>
> Indeed I remember at the time it was released five years ago that you
> yourself Tom said "well it's surprising how many people are enjoying such a
>
> simple arcade style game"
>
> All the best,
>
> Dark.
>
>
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Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home

[Bryan Peterson]

Correction. It's Brian Hartgen. Personally if it had been my product I would 
have set certain conditions before agreeing to the sale. Well one at any 
rate, and that would have been that the game also needed to be available as 
a standalone for those who couldn't or didn't want to spend a hundred or 
more dollars for the entire package.




Focus your powers and prepare for buttle.
-Original Message- 
From: mattias

Sent: Wednesday, July 29, 2015 9:25 AM
To: 'Gamers Discussion list'
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home

Because philip love jaws to much

-Ursprungligt meddelande-
Från: Gamers [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] För Thomas Ward
Skickat: den 29 juli 2015 01:49
Till: Gamers Discussion list 
Ämne: Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home

Hi Josh,

Yeah, of course it isn't fair. From now on if someone wants the game they
have to pirate it. Sad but true. There is no longer a legal way to
affordably purchase the game.



On 7/28/15, Josh K  wrote:

but that's not fair! what if someone wants to buy the stand alone
version? now they cannot get it at all!

follow me on twitter @joshknnd1982


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Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home

[loriduncan]

I agree, and it's such a shame blastbay is no longer in operation.

-Original Message- 
From: dark

Sent: Saturday, August 08, 2015 9:00 AM
To: Gamers Discussion list
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home

Hi Tom.

In light of this debate, I did go and play Q9, and one thing struck me. Lots
of people have tried! to develop games like Q9 but not many have been as
successful, look at games like Battle Zone, indeed I would say that these
are probably the most common type of audiogames people first try to make
with Bgt and I've seen plenty of practice games and works in progress over
on the audiogames.net forum that have employed the same idea. Yes, the 1D
side scroller concept is very simple, but Q9 executed it particularly well,
with the properties of how the attacks and enemies worked, the great sound
and music, and Philip's extremely funny acting.

Could someone create a similar game in the future? very probably, however
the number of people who have tried and not quite succeeded makes me think
that there was a lot more care and craftsmanship in Q9 than the phrase
"simple side scroller" would imply, which is precisely why it's sad that in
future the game's availability will be so restricted thanks to one person's
greed.

As I said previously, it's the very disrespect to Philip's great work on Q9
essentially turning a stand alone game into just an extra freeby for people
who buy a very specific software package that gets up my nose, and I'm sorry
that Philip didn't sell the rights to his game to someone more perceptive.

There really isn't much else to add to the hating on Greasy and it's
developer that has not been said, my point however is that even a simple
side scroller like Q9 requires quite some design, and Q9 had that design.

?

For example, enemy movement speed. I loved the points in Q9 when you'd be
fighting wolves in the cave but then have a bear coming to get you. The bear
moved slowly, but you couldn't generally inflict damage on it without it
damaging you first, you thus had to coordinate your quick attacks against
the wolves, the encroaching bear, and any bats in the area. Thus, even
though Q9 was a side scroller with not much by way of enemey attack
properties to play with, it still required you to judge a number of factors
together, not just hear, react and hit as quickly as possible, not to
mention preserving amo.

Whether the most recent entry in the side scroller category, Psycho strike
has this level of design I don't know sinse I'm still waiting for the Xp
issue to be fixed with the game in order to try it, but undoubtedly it's the
design that went into Q9 that made it such a major release.

Indeed I remember at the time it was released five years ago that you
yourself Tom said "well it's surprising how many people are enjoying such a
simple arcade style game"

All the best,

Dark.


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Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home

[dark]

Hi Tom.

In light of this debate, I did go and play Q9, and one thing struck me. Lots 
of people have tried! to develop games like Q9 but not many have been as 
successful, look at games like Battle Zone, indeed I would say that these 
are probably the most common type of audiogames people first try to make 
with Bgt and I've seen plenty of practice games and works in progress over 
on the audiogames.net forum that have employed the same idea. Yes, the 1D 
side scroller concept is very simple, but Q9 executed it particularly well, 
with the properties of how the attacks and enemies worked, the great sound 
and music, and Philip's extremely funny acting.


Could someone create a similar game in the future? very probably, however 
the number of people who have tried and not quite succeeded makes me think 
that there was a lot more care and craftsmanship in Q9 than the phrase 
"simple side scroller" would imply, which is precisely why it's sad that in 
future the game's availability will be so restricted thanks to one person's 
greed.


As I said previously, it's the very disrespect to Philip's great work on Q9 
essentially turning a stand alone game into just an extra freeby for people 
who buy a very specific software package that gets up my nose, and I'm sorry 
that Philip didn't sell the rights to his game to someone more perceptive.


There really isn't much else to add to the hating on Greasy and it's 
developer that has not been said, my point however is that even a simple 
side scroller like Q9 requires quite some design, and Q9 had that design.


?

For example, enemy movement speed. I loved the points in Q9 when you'd be 
fighting wolves in the cave but then have a bear coming to get you. The bear 
moved slowly, but you couldn't generally inflict damage on it without it 
damaging you first, you thus had to coordinate your quick attacks against 
the wolves, the encroaching bear, and any bats in the area. Thus, even 
though Q9 was a side scroller with not much by way of enemey attack 
properties to play with, it still required you to judge a number of factors 
together, not just hear, react and hit as quickly as possible, not to 
mention preserving amo.


Whether the most recent entry in the side scroller category, Psycho strike 
has this level of design I don't know sinse I'm still waiting for the Xp 
issue to be fixed with the game in order to try it, but undoubtedly it's the 
design that went into Q9 that made it such a major release.


Indeed I remember at the time it was released five years ago that you 
yourself Tom said "well it's surprising how many people are enjoying such a 
simple arcade style game"


All the best,

Dark.


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Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home

[Thomas Ward]

Hi Shaun,

We have a strict no piracy rule here on Audyssey so yes the mods do
mind. While I am upset with how Q9 was handled that doesn't mean I'll
relax the rule about sharing the keys on this or any other list I run
because it is piracy. Just because I think Mr. Hartgen is being a bit
of a jerk doesn't mean I would publicly disrespect his right to sell
the game by allowing people to share keys etc on list. Of course, what
people do off the list is none of my business and while I can't
legally encourage people to crack the game I am in no position to
discourage it either.

P.S.

Please, stop referring people to my comments on Audiogames.net. Much
of what I said there was heat of the moment and while not anything I
can't live with I don't appreciate being referred to as though those
comments are representative of how I feel now.



On 7/28/15, Shaun Everiss  wrote:
> Well strictly speaking probably not but read tward on the ag forum.
> I don't think the mods will mind if people start sharing keys though I'd
> probably hasard a guess you would have to do it off list.
>
>

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Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home

[Thomas Ward]

Hi Charles,

A comment about your comment. There is a lot more to the legalization
of illegal drugs than just everyone is doing it. Some studies have
shown that countries like Portugal which have relaxed their drug
policies have a less of a drug problem per person than countries that
have really strict drug policies. I know that sounds contrary, but
relaxing drug policies, legalizing drugs, has had the opposite effect
than that which people usually think.

Cheers!


On 7/29/15, Charles Rivard  wrote:
> One of the problems with today's society is that because everyone does it,
> it's OK.  It's no big deal because, what the heck, everyone does it.  Make
> illegal drugs legal because everyone's using them anyway, so why bother?
> Just because theft is common practice, it should not be OK to steal.
>
> ---
> Be positive!  When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished,
>
> you! really! are! finished!

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Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home

[Thomas Ward]

Hi Shaun,

I'm all for the idea of a Q9 clone. A developer, whoever that would
be, could create something like Q9 and either sell it or give it away
legally. It isn't like such things haven't been done before, and the
game is generic enough that something similar can be created without
much of a dispute over copyrights.



On 7/29/15, Shaun Everiss  wrote:
> I think everyone has shown themselves.
> And I don't care to pirate either even though I was one a long time ago.
> Fact is all other avenues were sorted and no one is shifting.
> I won't publish my info on here or on the net or on the forum or put it
> out for everyone to use but if someone requests this off list as a gamer
> I will send it in protest because of things being unfair.
>
> And look at what tom ward posted in the ag.net thread, unless mr ward
> has changed his stance on the issue.
> I do understand both sides, however with no warning well.
> it doesn't matter in the long run anyway.
> We will just have to create something else based on this or whatever its
> not like clones havn't been done before we can do it again.

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Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home

[Thomas Ward]

Hi Brandon,

Essentially Leasey is a series of Jaws scripts. I suspect they want to
sell games and other software with it to entice people into buying
Leasey. It is possible they discovered their scripts are not doing as
well as they might financially and are hoping to maximize sales by
adding more additional content.



On 7/23/15, Brandon Keith Biggs  wrote:
> Hello,
> It seems as if Licy is just a ton of Jaws scripts combined in a massive
> package.
> I've never used it, but from looking at the description, and reviews,
> that is what it sounds like.
> Why would they want an audio game sold with it? XD
> thanks,
>
> Brandon Keith Biggs 

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Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home

[Shaun Everiss]

I think everyone has shown themselves.
And I don't care to pirate either even though I was one a long time ago.
Fact is all other avenues were sorted and no one is shifting.
I won't publish my info on here or on the net or on the forum or put it 
out for everyone to use but if someone requests this off list as a gamer 
I will send it in protest because of things being unfair.


And look at what tom ward posted in the ag.net thread, unless mr ward 
has changed his stance on the issue.

I do understand both sides, however with no warning well.
it doesn't matter in the long run anyway.
We will just have to create something else based on this or whatever its 
not like clones havn't been done before we can do it again.




On 29/07/2015 12:55 p.m., Charles Rivard wrote:

I would show it as it is, honestly, pointing out the pitfalls, and let
him suffer the consequences.

---
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- Original Message - From: "dark" 
To: "Gamers Discussion list" 
Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2015 5:05 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home



Well Tom, in that case he can bugger off as well!

Ive got half a mind to change the license type to "unknown" for Q9 in
the audiogames.net db and put a note to the effect similar to those on
the bsc games that the developer, ie, philip is no longer selling the
game and it is legally unavailable, sinse hay if this prat won't
support the community, why should that community support him?

Then again, even if I just wrote the truth that the game is only now
available with a package software deal that requires a Jaws license
and even for someone with a Jaws license will cost $150, I doubt it'll
improve his sales figures anyway :D.



Beware the grue!

Dark.

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Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home

[Shaun Everiss]

You know I don't think he actually gives a ducks ass.

On 29/07/2015 11:14 a.m., Devin Prater wrote:

Lol, you could, obviously, but Mister Hard Gin might sue you.

Sent from my iPhone


On Jul 28, 2015, at 12:53 PM, Josh K  wrote:

can I give my q9 standard version key to people who want q9 but who don't want 
to buy jaws and leesy?

follow me on twitter @joshknnd1982


On 7/28/2015 11:01 AM, dark wrote:
It is true that "new games will come"
But with the number of audio games being so small, it's always a shame when 
something is lost, this is one reason why justin Dobemire got such a lot of 
deserved flack for what he did to bsc games, essentially making them legally 
unavailable forever more amen.

I hope as I said,  this twit who develops leasy will realize the value of what 
he owns and treat it with the respect it deserves.

All the best,

Dark.
- Original Message - From: "Devin Prater" 
To: "Gamers Discussion list" 
Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2015 1:01 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home



Philip legally doesn't even own the product he created anymore. There is 
literally nothing he can do. He can't sell his own game, he can't reclaim it, 
its just not his anymore. But y'all don't worry. New games will come, with 
developers with new creativity and better sense, and Liesy and its Jaws fetish 
will rise and it'll fall.

Sent from my iPhone


On Jul 27, 2015, at 1:31 PM, Scott Chesworth  wrote:

Hi Philip,

I've read the AudioGames topic you linked to, and whilst I totally
understand your decision to transfer ownership as a means of being
paid for the time you've put into developing Q9, I can't help echoing
the thoughts of many in that discussion that JAWS being a requirement
for Q9 is a shame. A decade ago when JAWS was the biggest fish in the
pond, this would've made more sense, but nowadays...?

Is there no scope to offer an alternative sales channel through
Blastbay for people who don't use JAWS?

Scott


On 7/24/15, Philip Bennefall  wrote:
Hi again,

Just wanted to follow up briefly and point those who have questions as
to why I transferred the rights of Q9, to the audiogames.net topic under
general game discussion. Hopefully I have managed to answer all the
questions there.

http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=225202#p225202

Kind regards,

Philip Bennefall

On 7/23/2015 4:17 PM, Philip Bennefall wrote:
Hi all,

I just wanted to post a quick announcement to let you all know that Q9
is moving. From today, the Q9 action game will no longer be sold from
Blastbay Studios but will instead be available as part of the Leasey
package (www.leaseycentral.com). Of course, all existing users can
continue to play the game normally; all issued keys remain valid and
can be reused if you format your PC or buy a new one.

Kind regards,

Philip Bennefall

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Y

Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home

[Shaun Everiss]

well I do think everything that can be said about this has been said 
neither side is budging and well the game was old.
We will just have to remake it and to be honest the plot was a bit 
simple, though it was good for its time.




On 29/07/2015 3:19 p.m., Josh K wrote:

yes good argument lets keep it at that otherwise this could start
something bad on list that I don't want started. if you want to share q9
do it in private i think.

follow me on twitter @joshknnd1982

On 7/28/2015 11:03 PM, Thomas Ward wrote:

Hi Josh,

The problem with your argument is this. Regardless if you take
something physical or not if you take something that belongs to a
person be it an idea, song, a story, or a piece of software it is
still considered steeling because according to the law you have an
obligation to pay for it. If someone takes something without paying
for it that is by definition steeling. In a case such as this a person
hasn't actually stolen the game or software itself, but have stolen
the opportunity to sell the software. Therefore that developer loses
out on the amount of money he or she was owed which effectively is the
same as taking it out of his or her wallet. In both cases the
developer does not have the money to spend because he/she never was
given the money for that use of the software.



On 7/28/15, Josh K  wrote:

how is it stealing? stealing is taking something from someone and once
you take it that person no longer has or owns it. example. i take your
wallet with money in it, therefore you no longer have the wallet or the
money I have it, I stole it from you.
now I buy a game. I get the unlock info and setup for the game. so now I
have that info and also the developer of the game also has that same
info. now I give my unlock code to you. so now you have my unlock code
too. should you have it? no. but you do. but wait, the developer of the
game still has his game, the source code, and the unlock code that he
gave to me. I did not steal anything from him. the only thing i did was
the developer lost money because i shared a game. this falls under the
category of dishonesty not really stealing. how will we prosecute
criminals when the day comes when lets say you have a nice car and I
want that car. well stealing is a thing of the past I pull out my
duplicator gun, point it at the car hit a button and voila! I have an
exact working copy of your vehicle built atom by atom. and I even have
your keys! oh but wait you still have your own car and your own keys. I
should have paid for the car most that happened was the car dealer lost
out on getting my money for something i should have baught rather than
coppied. same thing happens if i borrow a book from a friend, read it,
and i like it. technically i should have gone out and baught the book
for myself so the author lost money because my friend shared his book
with me. stealing is taking something so the original owner no longer
has that thing. its stolen. this is not stealing its well copying. I
think culturally we have to change our terms. pirates, they steal. that
is pirates who loot ships and stuff they steal. but could we really call
them pirates if they board your ship and duplicate the stuff they want
put the copies on their ship and go off? no you still have the
originals. and if that day comes even money will no longer have value.
in fact if you can just copy everything then nothing has value because
everything can be coppied. so we would then have to completely rethink
our whole entire world economic system. and this could go on forever so
I'll stop here.

follow me on twitter @joshknnd1982

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Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home

[Shaun Everiss]

well the game is old, to be honest it was fun while it lasted.
And to be honest the keys can just float round the net.
I sertainly have no issues with floating mine if someone asks for it.
As far as I care phil chose to quit the ag community and sold the game 
to someone that thought it good for business and thats it.
the current stand alone version is technically abandonware even if it 
legally isn't and especially now you can't get it anymore, blasttbay 
still has an installer and thats about it.
Leasy can't go to nvda because of licencing for opensource, though to be 
honest if it could use something like tolque which has all the 
interfaces in which some stuff I use like teamtalk does that could avoid 
the issue some what, and that is opensource library.

Ofcause thats opensource and not payed for, but even so.



On 29/07/2015 11:20 a.m., Josh K wrote:

but that's not fair! what if someone wants to buy the stand alone
version? now they cannot get it at all!

follow me on twitter @joshknnd1982

On 7/28/2015 4:43 PM, Scott Chesworth wrote:

Legally, nope.

On 7/28/15, Josh K  wrote:

can I give my q9 standard version key to people who want q9 but who
don't want to buy jaws and leesy?

follow me on twitter @joshknnd1982

On 7/28/2015 11:01 AM, dark wrote:

It is true that "new games will come"
But with the number of audio games being so small, it's always a shame
when something is lost, this is one reason why justin Dobemire got
such a lot of deserved flack for what he did to bsc games, essentially
making them legally unavailable forever more amen.

I hope as I said,  this twit who develops leasy will realize the value
of what he owns and treat it with the respect it deserves.

All the best,

Dark.
- Original Message - From: "Devin Prater"

To: "Gamers Discussion list" 
Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2015 1:01 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home



Philip legally doesn't even own the product he created anymore. There
is literally nothing he can do. He can't sell his own game, he can't
reclaim it, its just not his anymore. But y'all don't worry. New
games will come, with developers with new creativity and better
sense, and Liesy and its Jaws fetish will rise and it'll fall.

Sent from my iPhone


On Jul 27, 2015, at 1:31 PM, Scott Chesworth
 wrote:

Hi Philip,

I've read the AudioGames topic you linked to, and whilst I totally
understand your decision to transfer ownership as a means of being
paid for the time you've put into developing Q9, I can't help echoing
the thoughts of many in that discussion that JAWS being a requirement
for Q9 is a shame. A decade ago when JAWS was the biggest fish in the
pond, this would've made more sense, but nowadays...?

Is there no scope to offer an alternative sales channel through
Blastbay for people who don't use JAWS?

Scott


On 7/24/15, Philip Bennefall  wrote:
Hi again,

Just wanted to follow up briefly and point those who have
questions as
to why I transferred the rights of Q9, to the audiogames.net topic
under
general game discussion. Hopefully I have managed to answer all the
questions there.

http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=225202#p225202

Kind regards,

Philip Bennefall

On 7/23/2015 4:17 PM, Philip Bennefall wrote:
Hi all,

I just wanted to post a quick announcement to let you all know
that Q9
is moving. From today, the Q9 action game will no longer be sold
from
Blastbay Studios but will instead be available as part of the
Leasey
package (www.leaseycentral.com). Of course, all existing users can
continue to play the game normally; all issued keys remain valid
and
can be reused if you format your PC or buy a new one.

Kind regards,

Philip Bennefall

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Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home

[Charles Rivard]

One of the problems with today's society is that because everyone does it, 
it's OK.  It's no big deal because, what the heck, everyone does it.  Make 
illegal drugs legal because everyone's using them anyway, so why bother? 
Just because theft is common practice, it should not be OK to steal.


---
Be positive!  When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished, 
you! really! are! finished!
- Original Message - 
From: "Josh K" 

To: "Gamers Discussion list" 
Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2015 10:18 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home


well yes technically the dictionary definition is right. but really all 
this over a game? a $25 or $30 game? I can see pirating jaws its over 
$1000 and not many can afford it but pirating a $30 game or even $70 
eloquence really no need.


follow me on twitter @joshknnd1982

On 7/28/2015 10:31 PM, Charles Rivard wrote:
If I am selling a game, and you get a copy of the game without paying me 
for that copy, you have stolen it from me. That's piracy.


---
Be positive!  When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're 
finished, you! really! are! finished!

- Original Message - From: "Josh K" 
To: "Gamers Discussion list" 
Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2015 9:20 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home


how is it stealing? stealing is taking something from someone and once 
you take it that person no longer has or owns it. example. i take your 
wallet with money in it, therefore you no longer have the wallet or the 
money I have it, I stole it from you.
now I buy a game. I get the unlock info and setup for the game. so now I 
have that info and also the developer of the game also has that same 
info. now I give my unlock code to you. so now you have my unlock code 
too. should you have it? no. but you do. but wait, the developer of the 
game still has his game, the source code, and the unlock code that he 
gave to me. I did not steal anything from him. the only thing i did was 
the developer lost money because i shared a game. this falls under the 
category of dishonesty not really stealing. how will we prosecute 
criminals when the day comes when lets say you have a nice car and I 
want that car. well stealing is a thing of the past I pull out my 
duplicator gun, point it at the car hit a button and voila! I have an 
exact working copy of your vehicle built atom by atom. and I even have 
your keys! oh but wait you still have your own car and your own keys. I 
should have paid for the car most that happened was the car dealer lost 
out on getting my money for something i should have baught rather than 
coppied. same thing happens if i borrow a book from a friend, read it, 
and i like it. technically i should have gone out and baught the book 
for myself so the author lost money because my friend shared his book 
with me. stealing is taking something so the original owner no longer 
has that thing. its stolen. this is not stealing its well copying. I 
think culturally we have to change our terms. pirates, they steal. that 
is pirates who loot ships and stuff they steal. but could we really call 
them pirates if they board your ship and duplicate the stuff they want 
put the copies on their ship and go off? no you still have the 
originals. and if that day comes even money will no longer have value. 
in fact if you can just copy everything then nothing has value because 
everything can be coppied. so we would then have to completely rethink 
our whole entire world economic system. and this could go on forever so 
I'll stop here.


follow me on twitter @joshknnd1982

On 7/28/2015 8:46 PM, Charles Rivard wrote:

I would not pirate, because that is stealing.  Period.

---
Be positive!  When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're 
finished, you! really! are! finished!
- Original Message - From: "Devin Prater" 


To: "Gamers Discussion list" 
Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2015 6:24 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home


I'm willing to bet that some cool hacker will make an add-on for NVDA 
to interface with that Jaws-fetish software that I can't spell. Then 
buying the thing wouldn't exactly be all that wasteful, although I'd 
rather pirate it to try it out for 30 minutes or so just to see how 
mind-numbingly restrictive and basic it is, than buy it, then throw it 
away.


Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 28, 2015, at 4:41 PM, Thomas Ward  
wrote:


Hi Dark,

Agreed. I wouldn't blame anyone for pirating the game in secret, and
no I can't feel sorry or any sympathy for Brian Hartgen if that
happens because its his own fault. Someone who clearly refuses to 
sell

single end user licenses to include it in a more expensive product,
something many people don't need, is just begging for disreputable
people to rip it off as fast as possible. Although, I don't 
personally

know of any such instance

Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home

[Charles Rivard]

Just because they do so, that does not make it lawful to do so.  Stealing is 
stealing regardless of how many do it.


---
Be positive!  When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished, 
you! really! are! finished!
- Original Message - 
From: "lenron brown" 

To: "Gamers Discussion list" 
Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2015 9:45 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home



hmmm grand skeem of things friends will share books games and whatever
else they like.

On 7/28/15, Charles Rivard  wrote:
If I am selling a game, and you get a copy of the game without paying me 
for


that copy, you have stolen it from me.  That's piracy.

---
Be positive!  When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're 
finished,


you! really! are! finished!
- Original Message -
From: "Josh K" 
To: "Gamers Discussion list" 
Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2015 9:20 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home


how is it stealing? stealing is taking something from someone and once 
you


take it that person no longer has or owns it. example. i take your 
wallet


with money in it, therefore you no longer have the wallet or the money I
have it, I stole it from you.
now I buy a game. I get the unlock info and setup for the game. so now I
have that info and also the developer of the game also has that same 
info.


now I give my unlock code to you. so now you have my unlock code too.
should you have it? no. but you do. but wait, the developer of the game
still has his game, the source code, and the unlock code that he gave to
me. I did not steal anything from him. the only thing i did was the
developer lost money because i shared a game. this falls under the
category of dishonesty not really stealing. how will we prosecute
criminals when the day comes when lets say you have a nice car and I 
want


that car. well stealing is a thing of the past I pull out my duplicator
gun, point it at the car hit a button and voila! I have an exact working
copy of your vehicle built atom by atom. and I even have your keys! oh 
but


wait you still have your own car and your own keys. I should have paid 
for


the car most that happened was the car dealer lost out on getting my 
money


for something i should have baught rather than coppied. same thing 
happens


if i borrow a book from a friend, read it, and i like it. technically i
should have gone out and baught the book for myself so the author lost
money because my friend shared his book with me. stealing is taking
something so the original owner no longer has that thing. its stolen. 
this


is not stealing its well copying. I think culturally we have to change 
our


terms. pirates, they steal. that is pirates who loot ships and stuff 
they


steal. but could we really call them pirates if they board your ship and
duplicate the stuff they want put the copies on their ship and go off? 
no


you still have the originals. and if that day comes even money will no
longer have value. in fact if you can just copy everything then nothing
has value because everything can be coppied. so we would then have to
completely rethink our whole entire world economic system. and this 
could


go on forever so I'll stop here.

follow me on twitter @joshknnd1982

On 7/28/2015 8:46 PM, Charles Rivard wrote:

I would not pirate, because that is stealing.  Period.

---
Be positive!  When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're
finished, you! really! are! finished!
- Original Message - From: "Devin Prater"

To: "Gamers Discussion list" 
Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2015 6:24 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home


I'm willing to bet that some cool hacker will make an add-on for NVDA 
to


interface with that Jaws-fetish software that I can't spell. Then 
buying


the thing wouldn't exactly be all that wasteful, although I'd rather
pirate it to try it out for 30 minutes or so just to see how
mind-numbingly restrictive and basic it is, than buy it, then throw it
away.

Sent from my iPhone


On Jul 28, 2015, at 4:41 PM, Thomas Ward 
wrote:

Hi Dark,

Agreed. I wouldn't blame anyone for pirating the game in secret, and
no I can't feel sorry or any sympathy for Brian Hartgen if that
happens because its his own fault. Someone who clearly refuses to 
sell

single end user licenses to include it in a more expensive product,
something many people don't need, is just begging for disreputable
people to rip it off as fast as possible. Although, I don't 
personally

know of any such instances I wouldn't be surprised if this has not
already happened. People won't buy Leasey just to acquire a game that
use to sell for a fraction of the price. If they can they'll pirate 
it

instead, and that is a fact.




On 7/28/15, dark  wrote:
Well Tom It's a great shame Philip couldn't sell his game to a more
deserving party, not that I blaime him for this B

Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home

[Shaun Everiss]

I agree.
Leasy costs a lot then again its jaws I object to buying.
I'd buy leasy maybe.



On 29/07/2015 2:59 a.m., dark wrote:

As I sid in that topic, I don't feel any animocity towards Philip, he
deserves paying for his time, but I do think this is a bad consequence
for anyone who might want to play the game i the future and doesn't want
to either by jaws or leasy, (which itself is not cheap either).

I do think the leasy developers are being extremely narrow minded here
and just using the game as a bonus item on their sales of jaws specific
products, rather than treating philip's work with the respect it
deserves, or allowing it to be available to as wide an audience as
possible, and as I said, I do hope Philip will take steps to at least
see if the people be hind leasy will consider selling the game as a
stand alone version in the future. After all, such a decision can only
be of bennifit to them sinse if someone buys the game who would never
ordinarily buy Leasy or Jaws, say a Supernova or Window eyes or nvda
user, well they get a prophet they wouldn't have had normally, someone
else gets access to the game, and all are happy. It's not even as if Q9
needs to output to a screen reader specifically sinse it's entirely self
voicing.

The restriction as I said is disrespectful to Philip's work and the
community, and indeed yet another division of a minority, and as I said
while I am fully aware Philip is not responsable for this, I will say my
opinion of the developers of Leasy who are imposing this needless
restriction and turning a quite legitimate stand alone game into just an
extra for their existing jaws specific software is not high.

Hopefully, Philip will be able to convince them to give the game the
respect and availability it deserves and see sense.

Beware the grue!

Dark.

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Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home

[Shaun Everiss]

Well strictly speaking probably not but read tward on the ag forum.
I don't think the mods will mind if people start sharing keys though I'd 
probably hasard a guess you would have to do it off list.




On 29/07/2015 5:53 a.m., Josh K wrote:

can I give my q9 standard version key to people who want q9 but who
don't want to buy jaws and leesy?

follow me on twitter @joshknnd1982

On 7/28/2015 11:01 AM, dark wrote:

It is true that "new games will come"
But with the number of audio games being so small, it's always a shame
when something is lost, this is one reason why justin Dobemire got
such a lot of deserved flack for what he did to bsc games, essentially
making them legally unavailable forever more amen.

I hope as I said,  this twit who develops leasy will realize the value
of what he owns and treat it with the respect it deserves.

All the best,

Dark.
- Original Message - From: "Devin Prater"

To: "Gamers Discussion list" 
Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2015 1:01 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home



Philip legally doesn't even own the product he created anymore. There
is literally nothing he can do. He can't sell his own game, he can't
reclaim it, its just not his anymore. But y'all don't worry. New
games will come, with developers with new creativity and better
sense, and Liesy and its Jaws fetish will rise and it'll fall.

Sent from my iPhone


On Jul 27, 2015, at 1:31 PM, Scott Chesworth
 wrote:

Hi Philip,

I've read the AudioGames topic you linked to, and whilst I totally
understand your decision to transfer ownership as a means of being
paid for the time you've put into developing Q9, I can't help echoing
the thoughts of many in that discussion that JAWS being a requirement
for Q9 is a shame. A decade ago when JAWS was the biggest fish in the
pond, this would've made more sense, but nowadays...?

Is there no scope to offer an alternative sales channel through
Blastbay for people who don't use JAWS?

Scott


On 7/24/15, Philip Bennefall  wrote:
Hi again,

Just wanted to follow up briefly and point those who have questions as
to why I transferred the rights of Q9, to the audiogames.net topic
under
general game discussion. Hopefully I have managed to answer all the
questions there.

http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=225202#p225202

Kind regards,

Philip Bennefall

On 7/23/2015 4:17 PM, Philip Bennefall wrote:
Hi all,

I just wanted to post a quick announcement to let you all know
that Q9
is moving. From today, the Q9 action game will no longer be sold from
Blastbay Studios but will instead be available as part of the Leasey
package (www.leaseycentral.com). Of course, all existing users can
continue to play the game normally; all issued keys remain valid and
can be reused if you format your PC or buy a new one.

Kind regards,

Philip Bennefall

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Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home

[Scott Chesworth]

ur respect.
>
> Cheers,
> Ian Reed
> Try my free games at http://BlindAudioGames.com
>
>
> On 7/27/2015 1:30 PM, Scott Chesworth wrote:
>> Chaps, we should probably keep this discussion specific to Q9 rather
>> than turning it into a FS bashfest, however tempting that might be.
>> I'm not a mod, just felt the need to try and steer things back on
>> course seeing as my post seems to have sparked off this little slew of
>> messages.
>>
>> Scott
>>
>> On 7/27/15, Darren Harris  wrote:
>>> I refuse to use jaws based on the business moddle freedom scientific
>>> operates. I bought window eyes in 2007 and I only had to renew my SMA's
>>> last
>>> year. Fs will drain you of money and for what?
>>>
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: Gamers [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Josh K
>>> Sent: 27 July 2015 19:35
>>> To: Gamers Discussion list; phi...@blastbay.com
>>> Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home
>>>
>>> I have not used jaws in over 5 years and don't plan on going back to it.
>>> i use NVDA and window eyes.
>>>
>>> follow me on twitter @joshknnd1982
>>>
>>> On 7/27/2015 2:31 PM, Scott Chesworth wrote:
>>>> Hi Philip,
>>>>
>>>> I've read the AudioGames topic you linked to, and whilst I totally
>>>> understand your decision to transfer ownership as a means of being
>>>> paid for the time you've put into developing Q9, I can't help echoing
>>>> the thoughts of many in that discussion that JAWS being a requirement
>>>> for Q9 is a shame. A decade ago when JAWS was the biggest fish in the
>>>> pond, this would've made more sense, but nowadays...?
>>>>
>>>> Is there no scope to offer an alternative sales channel through
>>>> Blastbay for people who don't use JAWS?
>>>>
>>>> Scott
>>>>
>>>> On 7/24/15, Philip Bennefall  wrote:
>>>>> Hi again,
>>>>>
>>>>> Just wanted to follow up briefly and point those who have questions as
>>>>> to why I transferred the rights of Q9, to the audiogames.net topic
>>>>> under
>>>>> general game discussion. Hopefully I have managed to answer all the
>>>>> questions there.
>>>>>
>>>>> http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=225202#p225202
>>>>>
>>>>> Kind regards,
>>>>>
>>>>> Philip Bennefall
>>>>> On 7/23/2015 4:17 PM, Philip Bennefall wrote:
>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I just wanted to post a quick announcement to let you all know that
>>>>>> Q9
>>>>>> is moving. From today, the Q9 action game will no longer be sold from
>>>>>> Blastbay Studios but will instead be available as part of the Leasey
>>>>>> package (www.leaseycentral.com). Of course, all existing users can
>>>>>> continue to play the game normally; all issued keys remain valid and
>>>>>> can be reused if you format your PC or buy a new one.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Kind regards,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Philip Bennefall
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ---
>>>>>> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org
>>>>>> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
>>>>>> gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org.
>>>>>> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
>>>>>> http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
>>>>>> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
>>>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org.
>>>>>> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
>>>>>> list,
>>>>>> please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
>>>>>> .
>>>>>>
>>>>> ---
>>>>> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org
>>>>> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
>>>>> gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org.
>>>>> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
>>>>> http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
>>>>> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
>>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audy

Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home

[Shaun Everiss]

well you can still get a demo if you have a key allready.
or someone will probably give you a key.
Its probably what will happen on the forum  its been suggested that that 
may be the only way to play the game now.
On the otherside its an old game it was a good intro to bgt but I havn't 
played it in ages.




On 25/07/2015 4:50 a.m., Darren Duff wrote:

So what happendes if you don't have jfw or don't want the Leasey package
but you just want the game? Slitely confused here!

Darren Duff.
amateur radio station KK4AHX.

Follow me on twitter @darren_duff
friend me on face book http://www.facebook.com/DarrenLDuff.

primary E-mail duff...@gmail.com

Mobile E-mail mobiledu...@gmail.com

skype duffman31279

On 7/23/2015 10:17 AM, Philip Bennefall wrote:

Hi all,

I just wanted to post a quick announcement to let you all know that Q9
is moving. From today, the Q9 action game will no longer be sold from
Blastbay Studios but will instead be available as part of the Leasey
package (www.leaseycentral.com). Of course, all existing users can
continue to play the game normally; all issued keys remain valid and
can be reused if you format your PC or buy a new one.

Kind regards,

Philip Bennefall

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Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home

[Shaun Everiss]

according to the audiogames net forum the game is old and phill is not 
developing it anymore so decided to put it where it is now.
I personally don't aggree with people putting things to a jwas centric 
platform the cost is one thing and the other is it requires a sertain 
software package.
It would be like my favorite office program requiring the top of the 
line processer or thousand dollar video card or something like that.
I understand why it was done and if leasy supported more stuff I may 
even buy into the platform in a few years time.
as it is though bar q9 and a few stand alone free games nothing to see 
for the home user at least.




On 24/07/2015 7:00 a.m., john wrote:

Interesting change. Would you be willing to elaborate a bit on why you took
this rout?

--
From: "Philip Bennefall" 
Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2015 10:17
To: "Gamers Discussion list" 
Subject: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home

Hi all,

I just wanted to post a quick announcement to let you all know that Q9
is moving. From today, the Q9 action game will no longer be sold from
Blastbay Studios but will instead be available as part of the Leasey
package (www.leaseycentral.com). Of course, all existing users can
continue to play the game normally; all issued keys remain valid and can
be reused if you format your PC or buy a new one.

Kind regards,

Philip Bennefall

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Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home

[mattias]

Because philip love jaws to much

-Ursprungligt meddelande-
Från: Gamers [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] För Thomas Ward
Skickat: den 29 juli 2015 01:49
Till: Gamers Discussion list 
Ämne: Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home

Hi Josh,

Yeah, of course it isn't fair. From now on if someone wants the game they
have to pirate it. Sad but true. There is no longer a legal way to
affordably purchase the game.



On 7/28/15, Josh K  wrote:
> but that's not fair! what if someone wants to buy the stand alone 
> version? now they cannot get it at all!
>
> follow me on twitter @joshknnd1982

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Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home

[mattias]

Can all people stop take Philip  in Defence
Or what the English word are
I meen wich developer force people to use a specific screen reader


-Ursprungligt meddelande-
Från: Gamers [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] För Charles Rivard
Skickat: den 29 juli 2015 02:51
Till: Gamers Discussion list 
Ämne: Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home

I would think that he's shooting himself in both feet with this practice. 
As for hoping that he goes bankrupt or anything like that, I hope not.  I
wouldn't wish that on anyone.  However, I feel that sensibly written
complaints are valid, and I hope that, eventually, he sees the light and
does what is appropriate.  If the game is made available as a stand alone
purchase, I hope he considers that a quick nickel always beats a slow dollar
when it comes to income.

---
Be positive!  When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished,
you! really! are! finished!
- Original Message -
From: "Thomas Ward" 
To: "Gamers Discussion list" 
Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2015 6:20 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home


> Hi Dark,
>
> I agree. Selling Q9 as a separate product might do him more good than 
> including it as an add-on for Leasey, but apparently he thinks 
> otherwise. Unfortunately, he doesn't seem to care what we think and I 
> don't see that situation changing any time soon.
>
> As for your feelings on the matter I'm pretty certain a lot of others 
> are wishing him and his business ill will right now. He said in his 
> most recent blog post that he has been getting a lot of hate mail over 
> this, and I'm not surprised. As a recipient of some of that hate mail 
> myself I know how nasty this community can be when something gets them 
> upset over something. So I wouldn't be surprised if there are others 
> who think as you do that are hoping Leasey fails, that Brian goes 
> financially bankrupt,  or someone pirates his software into oblivion.
> None of which are a bit realistic, but I guess if it helps quell 
> someone's rage to dream about such things they will.
>
>
>
> On 7/28/15, dark  wrote:
>> Well tom, good business practice and moron hood are not mutually 
>> exclusive concepts :D.
>>
>> Ultimately Q9 would do him more good as a stand alone program than 
>> just as a
>>
>> little extra addon for his Leasy thing, sinse I suspect there are far 
>> more potential Nvda, window eyes and supernova users who would buy Q9 
>> as a game than there are Jaws users who would decide to buy Leasy 
>> based on the fact it
>>
>> comes with Q9.
>>
>> no, this chap isn't part of the community, but frankly if you just go 
>> acquiring random software and selling without a knolidge of your 
>> customer base or what good that software might do and think you can 
>> stuff it in a box
>>
>> as a job lot and sell to your usual customers, you are a Moron indeed!
>>
>> I hope he does see sense, or goes out of business, or that people 
>> pirate the
>>
>> game sinse I hate to see audiogames lost to posterity, especially for 
>> such a
>>
>> ridiculous reason as one man's short sighted greed.
>>
>> Of course as I said, none of this is Philip's fault, I just wish he'd 
>> sold the rights to someone less scummy, or more intelligent.
>> Beware the grue!
>>
>> Dark.
>>
>>
>> ---
>> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the 
>> list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org.
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>>
>
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>
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Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home

[Brandon Keith Biggs]

Hello,
Yes it would have been way more advantageous to announce that the sales 
were going to end in 2 weeks so get your version of q9 before it sells 
out, but he didn't do that.

If you wish to play q9, find someone and play it on their computer.
I have never played it and it is only because of this topic that I have 
ever wanted to play it.

thanks,

Brandon Keith Biggs 
On 7/27/2015 8:35 PM, Josh K wrote:
I have not used jaws in over 5 years and don't plan on going back to 
it. i use NVDA and window eyes.


follow me on twitter @joshknnd1982

On 7/27/2015 2:31 PM, Scott Chesworth wrote:

Hi Philip,

I've read the AudioGames topic you linked to, and whilst I totally
understand your decision to transfer ownership as a means of being
paid for the time you've put into developing Q9, I can't help echoing
the thoughts of many in that discussion that JAWS being a requirement
for Q9 is a shame. A decade ago when JAWS was the biggest fish in the
pond, this would've made more sense, but nowadays...?

Is there no scope to offer an alternative sales channel through
Blastbay for people who don't use JAWS?

Scott

On 7/24/15, Philip Bennefall  wrote:

Hi again,

Just wanted to follow up briefly and point those who have questions as
to why I transferred the rights of Q9, to the audiogames.net topic 
under

general game discussion. Hopefully I have managed to answer all the
questions there.

http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=225202#p225202

Kind regards,

Philip Bennefall
On 7/23/2015 4:17 PM, Philip Bennefall wrote:

Hi all,

I just wanted to post a quick announcement to let you all know that Q9
is moving. From today, the Q9 action game will no longer be sold from
Blastbay Studios but will instead be available as part of the Leasey
package (www.leaseycentral.com). Of course, all existing users can
continue to play the game normally; all issued keys remain valid and
can be reused if you format your PC or buy a new one.

Kind regards,

Philip Bennefall

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Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home

[Brandon Keith Biggs]

Hello,
It seems as if Licy is just a ton of Jaws scripts combined in a massive 
package.
I've never used it, but from looking at the description, and reviews, 
that is what it sounds like.

Why would they want an audio game sold with it? XD
thanks,

Brandon Keith Biggs 
On 7/24/2015 3:29 AM, Devin Prater wrote:

I believe that because Q9 was a simple arcade game, it could be a very well 
intro to playing audio games, as Licy seems to mostly be for newer computer 
users.


Sent from my iPhone


On Jul 23, 2015, at 2:00 PM, john  wrote:

Interesting change. Would you be willing to elaborate a bit on why you took
this rout?

--
From: "Philip Bennefall" 
Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2015 10:17
To: "Gamers Discussion list" 
Subject: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home

Hi all,

I just wanted to post a quick announcement to let you all know that Q9
is moving. From today, the Q9 action game will no longer be sold from
Blastbay Studios but will instead be available as part of the Leasey
package (www.leaseycentral.com). Of course, all existing users can
continue to play the game normally; all issued keys remain valid and can
be reused if you format your PC or buy a new one.

Kind regards,

Philip Bennefall

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Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home

[Bryan Peterson]

Which is basically everybody's point. I also don't think that anybody's 
actually come right out endorsing piracy, or at least most aren't. There is 
a difference between endorsing something and just saying that one will feel 
little or no sympathy for someone if said thing happens to him.




Focus your powers and prepare for buttle.
-Original Message- 
From: Charles Rivard

Sent: Wednesday, July 29, 2015 10:21 AM
To: Gamers Discussion list
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home

The only way that they will find out about this game, though, is to buy an
expensive software package.  That's a pretty high, and unreasonable, way to
find out about it.

---
Be positive!  When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished,
you! really! are! finished!
- Original Message - 
From: "Nick Adamson" 

To: "Gamers Discussion list" 
Sent: Wednesday, July 29, 2015 1:17 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home



Hi all.
The content of this thread is making me a little uncomfortable.
You may not agree with what has happened but encouraging piracy and 
personal attacks makes no one look good and especially from people 
normally respected in our community.
As there is nothing you can do about the Q9 situation why not try to see 
the positives. People who wouldn't normally play audio games are being 
introduced to them and that may lead to them finding out what else is out 
there.

Thanks.
Nick.





On 29 Jul 2015, at 01:40, Thomas Ward  wrote:

Hi Dark,

Fair enough. That seems to me to be a fair compromise.




On 7/28/15, dark  wrote:
Hi Tom.

I've made a practice of not deleting games that were once available but
currently are not from the db, sinse it's surprising how often old ones 
pop


up, or in the cases of some games how people manage to acquire them 
anyway

even if audiogames.net won't help people to do so unless the games are
officially abandonware.
Hence why the pages for the bsc titles and bavisoft games are still up.
this is what the "unknown" license type is for, ie, we don't know what 
has

become of the game.

I will not therefore remove Q9's entry, but I won't advertise sleasy 
either,


I will put a note to the effect the rights have been sold but the game 
is

legally unavailable, sinse for most intents and purposes, it is.

If this Brian Hartgen wants to contact me and discuss the problem, well 
I'll


be glad to tell him what I think.

Beware the grue!

Dark.


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If y

Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home

[Charles Rivard]

The only way that they will find out about this game, though, is to buy an 
expensive software package.  That's a pretty high, and unreasonable, way to 
find out about it.


---
Be positive!  When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished, 
you! really! are! finished!
- Original Message - 
From: "Nick Adamson" 

To: "Gamers Discussion list" 
Sent: Wednesday, July 29, 2015 1:17 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home



Hi all.
The content of this thread is making me a little uncomfortable.
You may not agree with what has happened but encouraging piracy and 
personal attacks makes no one look good and especially from people 
normally respected in our community.
As there is nothing you can do about the Q9 situation why not try to see 
the positives. People who wouldn't normally play audio games are being 
introduced to them and that may lead to them finding out what else is out 
there.

Thanks.
Nick.





On 29 Jul 2015, at 01:40, Thomas Ward  wrote:

Hi Dark,

Fair enough. That seems to me to be a fair compromise.




On 7/28/15, dark  wrote:
Hi Tom.

I've made a practice of not deleting games that were once available but
currently are not from the db, sinse it's surprising how often old ones 
pop


up, or in the cases of some games how people manage to acquire them 
anyway

even if audiogames.net won't help people to do so unless the games are
officially abandonware.
Hence why the pages for the bsc titles and bavisoft games are still up.
this is what the "unknown" license type is for, ie, we don't know what 
has

become of the game.

I will not therefore remove Q9's entry, but I won't advertise sleasy 
either,


I will put a note to the effect the rights have been sold but the game 
is

legally unavailable, sinse for most intents and purposes, it is.

If this Brian Hartgen wants to contact me and discuss the problem, well 
I'll


be glad to tell him what I think.

Beware the grue!

Dark.


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Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home

[Thomas Ward]

Hi Josh,

Yes, lets drop the stealing topic. It has no place on this list, and
it is getting very close to breaking the list guidelines. So with that
in mind I consider that subject closed.



On 7/28/15, Josh K  wrote:
> yes good argument lets keep it at that otherwise this could start
> something bad on list that I don't want started. if you want to share q9
> do it in private i think.
>
> follow me on twitter @joshknnd1982

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Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home

[Ian Reed]

+1 Nick Adamson.

Also remember that many developers read the audiogames.net forum and 
this mailing list.
Seeing how community members respond to one developer's choices is an 
easy way to guess how they would act towards other developers whenever 
they find something disagreeable.


Expressing frustration in a civil manner is one thing, but name calling 
and open endorsement of piracy is entirely different.


~ Ian Reed
Try my free games at http://BlindAudioGames.com



On 7/29/2015 12:17 AM, Nick Adamson wrote:

Hi all.
The content of this thread is making me a little uncomfortable.
You may not agree with what has happened but encouraging piracy and personal 
attacks makes no one look good and especially from people normally respected in 
our community.
As there is nothing you can do about the Q9 situation why not try to see the 
positives. People who wouldn't normally play audio games are being introduced 
to them and that may lead to them finding out what else is out there.
Thanks.
Nick.




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Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home

[Nick Adamson]

Hi all. 
The content of this thread is making me a little uncomfortable. 
You may not agree with what has happened but encouraging piracy and personal 
attacks makes no one look good and especially from people normally respected in 
our community. 
As there is nothing you can do about the Q9 situation why not try to see the 
positives. People who wouldn't normally play audio games are being introduced 
to them and that may lead to them finding out what else is out there. 
Thanks. 
Nick. 




> On 29 Jul 2015, at 01:40, Thomas Ward  wrote:
> 
> Hi Dark,
> 
> Fair enough. That seems to me to be a fair compromise.
> 
> 
> 
>> On 7/28/15, dark  wrote:
>> Hi Tom.
>> 
>> I've made a practice of not deleting games that were once available but
>> currently are not from the db, sinse it's surprising how often old ones pop
>> 
>> up, or in the cases of some games how people manage to acquire them anyway
>> even if audiogames.net won't help people to do so unless the games are
>> officially abandonware.
>> Hence why the pages for the bsc titles and bavisoft games are still up.
>> this is what the "unknown" license type is for, ie, we don't know what has
>> become of the game.
>> 
>> I will not therefore remove Q9's entry, but I won't advertise sleasy either,
>> 
>> I will put a note to the effect the rights have been sold but the game is
>> legally unavailable, sinse for most intents and purposes, it is.
>> 
>> If this Brian Hartgen wants to contact me and discuss the problem, well I'll
>> 
>> be glad to tell him what I think.
>> 
>> Beware the grue!
>> 
>> Dark.
>> 
>> 
>> ---
>> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org
>> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
>> gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org.
>> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
>> http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
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>> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org.
>> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list,
>> please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
>> 
> 
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Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home

[Josh K]

yes good argument lets keep it at that otherwise this could start 
something bad on list that I don't want started. if you want to share q9 
do it in private i think.


follow me on twitter @joshknnd1982

On 7/28/2015 11:03 PM, Thomas Ward wrote:

Hi Josh,

The problem with your argument is this. Regardless if you take
something physical or not if you take something that belongs to a
person be it an idea, song, a story, or a piece of software it is
still considered steeling because according to the law you have an
obligation to pay for it. If someone takes something without paying
for it that is by definition steeling. In a case such as this a person
hasn't actually stolen the game or software itself, but have stolen
the opportunity to sell the software. Therefore that developer loses
out on the amount of money he or she was owed which effectively is the
same as taking it out of his or her wallet. In both cases the
developer does not have the money to spend because he/she never was
given the money for that use of the software.



On 7/28/15, Josh K  wrote:

how is it stealing? stealing is taking something from someone and once
you take it that person no longer has or owns it. example. i take your
wallet with money in it, therefore you no longer have the wallet or the
money I have it, I stole it from you.
now I buy a game. I get the unlock info and setup for the game. so now I
have that info and also the developer of the game also has that same
info. now I give my unlock code to you. so now you have my unlock code
too. should you have it? no. but you do. but wait, the developer of the
game still has his game, the source code, and the unlock code that he
gave to me. I did not steal anything from him. the only thing i did was
the developer lost money because i shared a game. this falls under the
category of dishonesty not really stealing. how will we prosecute
criminals when the day comes when lets say you have a nice car and I
want that car. well stealing is a thing of the past I pull out my
duplicator gun, point it at the car hit a button and voila! I have an
exact working copy of your vehicle built atom by atom. and I even have
your keys! oh but wait you still have your own car and your own keys. I
should have paid for the car most that happened was the car dealer lost
out on getting my money for something i should have baught rather than
coppied. same thing happens if i borrow a book from a friend, read it,
and i like it. technically i should have gone out and baught the book
for myself so the author lost money because my friend shared his book
with me. stealing is taking something so the original owner no longer
has that thing. its stolen. this is not stealing its well copying. I
think culturally we have to change our terms. pirates, they steal. that
is pirates who loot ships and stuff they steal. but could we really call
them pirates if they board your ship and duplicate the stuff they want
put the copies on their ship and go off? no you still have the
originals. and if that day comes even money will no longer have value.
in fact if you can just copy everything then nothing has value because
everything can be coppied. so we would then have to completely rethink
our whole entire world economic system. and this could go on forever so
I'll stop here.

follow me on twitter @joshknnd1982

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Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home

[Josh K]

well yes technically the dictionary definition is right. but really all 
this over a game? a $25 or $30 game? I can see pirating jaws its over 
$1000 and not many can afford it but pirating a $30 game or even $70 
eloquence really no need.


follow me on twitter @joshknnd1982

On 7/28/2015 10:31 PM, Charles Rivard wrote:
If I am selling a game, and you get a copy of the game without paying 
me for that copy, you have stolen it from me. That's piracy.


---
Be positive!  When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're 
finished, you! really! are! finished!

- Original Message - From: "Josh K" 
To: "Gamers Discussion list" 
Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2015 9:20 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home


how is it stealing? stealing is taking something from someone and 
once you take it that person no longer has or owns it. example. i 
take your wallet with money in it, therefore you no longer have the 
wallet or the money I have it, I stole it from you.
now I buy a game. I get the unlock info and setup for the game. so 
now I have that info and also the developer of the game also has that 
same info. now I give my unlock code to you. so now you have my 
unlock code too. should you have it? no. but you do. but wait, the 
developer of the game still has his game, the source code, and the 
unlock code that he gave to me. I did not steal anything from him. 
the only thing i did was the developer lost money because i shared a 
game. this falls under the category of dishonesty not really 
stealing. how will we prosecute criminals when the day comes when 
lets say you have a nice car and I want that car. well stealing is a 
thing of the past I pull out my duplicator gun, point it at the car 
hit a button and voila! I have an exact working copy of your vehicle 
built atom by atom. and I even have your keys! oh but wait you still 
have your own car and your own keys. I should have paid for the car 
most that happened was the car dealer lost out on getting my money 
for something i should have baught rather than coppied. same thing 
happens if i borrow a book from a friend, read it, and i like it. 
technically i should have gone out and baught the book for myself so 
the author lost money because my friend shared his book with me. 
stealing is taking something so the original owner no longer has that 
thing. its stolen. this is not stealing its well copying. I think 
culturally we have to change our terms. pirates, they steal. that is 
pirates who loot ships and stuff they steal. but could we really call 
them pirates if they board your ship and duplicate the stuff they 
want put the copies on their ship and go off? no you still have the 
originals. and if that day comes even money will no longer have 
value. in fact if you can just copy everything then nothing has value 
because everything can be coppied. so we would then have to 
completely rethink our whole entire world economic system. and this 
could go on forever so I'll stop here.


follow me on twitter @joshknnd1982

On 7/28/2015 8:46 PM, Charles Rivard wrote:

I would not pirate, because that is stealing.  Period.

---
Be positive!  When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're 
finished, you! really! are! finished!
- Original Message - From: "Devin Prater" 


To: "Gamers Discussion list" 
Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2015 6:24 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home


I'm willing to bet that some cool hacker will make an add-on for 
NVDA to interface with that Jaws-fetish software that I can't 
spell. Then buying the thing wouldn't exactly be all that wasteful, 
although I'd rather pirate it to try it out for 30 minutes or so 
just to see how mind-numbingly restrictive and basic it is, than 
buy it, then throw it away.


Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 28, 2015, at 4:41 PM, Thomas Ward 
 wrote:


Hi Dark,

Agreed. I wouldn't blame anyone for pirating the game in secret, and
no I can't feel sorry or any sympathy for Brian Hartgen if that
happens because its his own fault. Someone who clearly refuses to 
sell

single end user licenses to include it in a more expensive product,
something many people don't need, is just begging for disreputable
people to rip it off as fast as possible. Although, I don't 
personally

know of any such instances I wouldn't be surprised if this has not
already happened. People won't buy Leasey just to acquire a game that
use to sell for a fraction of the price. If they can they'll 
pirate it

instead, and that is a fact.




On 7/28/15, dark  wrote:
Well Tom It's a great shame Philip couldn't sell his game to a more
deserving party, not that I blaime him for this Brian fellow's 
stupidity, a


very blind man indeed if he can't realize what he's got :D.

If this is truly the case I would not be sorry for someone to 
pirate the
game as has already happened with the Bsc

Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home

[Thomas Ward]

Hi Josh,

The problem with your argument is this. Regardless if you take
something physical or not if you take something that belongs to a
person be it an idea, song, a story, or a piece of software it is
still considered steeling because according to the law you have an
obligation to pay for it. If someone takes something without paying
for it that is by definition steeling. In a case such as this a person
hasn't actually stolen the game or software itself, but have stolen
the opportunity to sell the software. Therefore that developer loses
out on the amount of money he or she was owed which effectively is the
same as taking it out of his or her wallet. In both cases the
developer does not have the money to spend because he/she never was
given the money for that use of the software.



On 7/28/15, Josh K  wrote:
> how is it stealing? stealing is taking something from someone and once
> you take it that person no longer has or owns it. example. i take your
> wallet with money in it, therefore you no longer have the wallet or the
> money I have it, I stole it from you.
> now I buy a game. I get the unlock info and setup for the game. so now I
> have that info and also the developer of the game also has that same
> info. now I give my unlock code to you. so now you have my unlock code
> too. should you have it? no. but you do. but wait, the developer of the
> game still has his game, the source code, and the unlock code that he
> gave to me. I did not steal anything from him. the only thing i did was
> the developer lost money because i shared a game. this falls under the
> category of dishonesty not really stealing. how will we prosecute
> criminals when the day comes when lets say you have a nice car and I
> want that car. well stealing is a thing of the past I pull out my
> duplicator gun, point it at the car hit a button and voila! I have an
> exact working copy of your vehicle built atom by atom. and I even have
> your keys! oh but wait you still have your own car and your own keys. I
> should have paid for the car most that happened was the car dealer lost
> out on getting my money for something i should have baught rather than
> coppied. same thing happens if i borrow a book from a friend, read it,
> and i like it. technically i should have gone out and baught the book
> for myself so the author lost money because my friend shared his book
> with me. stealing is taking something so the original owner no longer
> has that thing. its stolen. this is not stealing its well copying. I
> think culturally we have to change our terms. pirates, they steal. that
> is pirates who loot ships and stuff they steal. but could we really call
> them pirates if they board your ship and duplicate the stuff they want
> put the copies on their ship and go off? no you still have the
> originals. and if that day comes even money will no longer have value.
> in fact if you can just copy everything then nothing has value because
> everything can be coppied. so we would then have to completely rethink
> our whole entire world economic system. and this could go on forever so
> I'll stop here.
>
> follow me on twitter @joshknnd1982

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Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home

[lenron brown]

hmmm grand skeem of things friends will share books games and whatever
else they like.

On 7/28/15, Charles Rivard  wrote:
> If I am selling a game, and you get a copy of the game without paying me for
>
> that copy, you have stolen it from me.  That's piracy.
>
> ---
> Be positive!  When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished,
>
> you! really! are! finished!
> - Original Message -
> From: "Josh K" 
> To: "Gamers Discussion list" 
> Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2015 9:20 PM
> Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home
>
>
>> how is it stealing? stealing is taking something from someone and once you
>>
>> take it that person no longer has or owns it. example. i take your wallet
>>
>> with money in it, therefore you no longer have the wallet or the money I
>> have it, I stole it from you.
>> now I buy a game. I get the unlock info and setup for the game. so now I
>> have that info and also the developer of the game also has that same info.
>>
>> now I give my unlock code to you. so now you have my unlock code too.
>> should you have it? no. but you do. but wait, the developer of the game
>> still has his game, the source code, and the unlock code that he gave to
>> me. I did not steal anything from him. the only thing i did was the
>> developer lost money because i shared a game. this falls under the
>> category of dishonesty not really stealing. how will we prosecute
>> criminals when the day comes when lets say you have a nice car and I want
>>
>> that car. well stealing is a thing of the past I pull out my duplicator
>> gun, point it at the car hit a button and voila! I have an exact working
>> copy of your vehicle built atom by atom. and I even have your keys! oh but
>>
>> wait you still have your own car and your own keys. I should have paid for
>>
>> the car most that happened was the car dealer lost out on getting my money
>>
>> for something i should have baught rather than coppied. same thing happens
>>
>> if i borrow a book from a friend, read it, and i like it. technically i
>> should have gone out and baught the book for myself so the author lost
>> money because my friend shared his book with me. stealing is taking
>> something so the original owner no longer has that thing. its stolen. this
>>
>> is not stealing its well copying. I think culturally we have to change our
>>
>> terms. pirates, they steal. that is pirates who loot ships and stuff they
>>
>> steal. but could we really call them pirates if they board your ship and
>> duplicate the stuff they want put the copies on their ship and go off? no
>>
>> you still have the originals. and if that day comes even money will no
>> longer have value. in fact if you can just copy everything then nothing
>> has value because everything can be coppied. so we would then have to
>> completely rethink our whole entire world economic system. and this could
>>
>> go on forever so I'll stop here.
>>
>> follow me on twitter @joshknnd1982
>>
>> On 7/28/2015 8:46 PM, Charles Rivard wrote:
>>> I would not pirate, because that is stealing.  Period.
>>>
>>> ---
>>> Be positive!  When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're
>>> finished, you! really! are! finished!
>>> - Original Message - From: "Devin Prater"
>>> 
>>> To: "Gamers Discussion list" 
>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2015 6:24 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home
>>>
>>>
>>>> I'm willing to bet that some cool hacker will make an add-on for NVDA to
>>>>
>>>> interface with that Jaws-fetish software that I can't spell. Then buying
>>>>
>>>> the thing wouldn't exactly be all that wasteful, although I'd rather
>>>> pirate it to try it out for 30 minutes or so just to see how
>>>> mind-numbingly restrictive and basic it is, than buy it, then throw it
>>>> away.
>>>>
>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>
>>>>> On Jul 28, 2015, at 4:41 PM, Thomas Ward 
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Dark,
>>>>>
>>>>> Agreed. I wouldn't blame anyone for pirating the game in secret, and
>>>>> no I can't feel sorry or any sympathy for Brian Hartgen if that
>>>>> happens because its his own fault. Someone who clearly refuses to sell
>>>>> single end user licenses to include it in a more expensiv

Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home

[Charles Rivard]

If I am selling a game, and you get a copy of the game without paying me for 
that copy, you have stolen it from me.  That's piracy.


---
Be positive!  When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished, 
you! really! are! finished!
- Original Message - 
From: "Josh K" 

To: "Gamers Discussion list" 
Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2015 9:20 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home


how is it stealing? stealing is taking something from someone and once you 
take it that person no longer has or owns it. example. i take your wallet 
with money in it, therefore you no longer have the wallet or the money I 
have it, I stole it from you.
now I buy a game. I get the unlock info and setup for the game. so now I 
have that info and also the developer of the game also has that same info. 
now I give my unlock code to you. so now you have my unlock code too. 
should you have it? no. but you do. but wait, the developer of the game 
still has his game, the source code, and the unlock code that he gave to 
me. I did not steal anything from him. the only thing i did was the 
developer lost money because i shared a game. this falls under the 
category of dishonesty not really stealing. how will we prosecute 
criminals when the day comes when lets say you have a nice car and I want 
that car. well stealing is a thing of the past I pull out my duplicator 
gun, point it at the car hit a button and voila! I have an exact working 
copy of your vehicle built atom by atom. and I even have your keys! oh but 
wait you still have your own car and your own keys. I should have paid for 
the car most that happened was the car dealer lost out on getting my money 
for something i should have baught rather than coppied. same thing happens 
if i borrow a book from a friend, read it, and i like it. technically i 
should have gone out and baught the book for myself so the author lost 
money because my friend shared his book with me. stealing is taking 
something so the original owner no longer has that thing. its stolen. this 
is not stealing its well copying. I think culturally we have to change our 
terms. pirates, they steal. that is pirates who loot ships and stuff they 
steal. but could we really call them pirates if they board your ship and 
duplicate the stuff they want put the copies on their ship and go off? no 
you still have the originals. and if that day comes even money will no 
longer have value. in fact if you can just copy everything then nothing 
has value because everything can be coppied. so we would then have to 
completely rethink our whole entire world economic system. and this could 
go on forever so I'll stop here.


follow me on twitter @joshknnd1982

On 7/28/2015 8:46 PM, Charles Rivard wrote:

I would not pirate, because that is stealing.  Period.

---
Be positive!  When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're 
finished, you! really! are! finished!
- Original Message - From: "Devin Prater" 


To: "Gamers Discussion list" 
Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2015 6:24 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home


I'm willing to bet that some cool hacker will make an add-on for NVDA to 
interface with that Jaws-fetish software that I can't spell. Then buying 
the thing wouldn't exactly be all that wasteful, although I'd rather 
pirate it to try it out for 30 minutes or so just to see how 
mind-numbingly restrictive and basic it is, than buy it, then throw it 
away.


Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 28, 2015, at 4:41 PM, Thomas Ward  
wrote:


Hi Dark,

Agreed. I wouldn't blame anyone for pirating the game in secret, and
no I can't feel sorry or any sympathy for Brian Hartgen if that
happens because its his own fault. Someone who clearly refuses to sell
single end user licenses to include it in a more expensive product,
something many people don't need, is just begging for disreputable
people to rip it off as fast as possible. Although, I don't personally
know of any such instances I wouldn't be surprised if this has not
already happened. People won't buy Leasey just to acquire a game that
use to sell for a fraction of the price. If they can they'll pirate it
instead, and that is a fact.




On 7/28/15, dark  wrote:
Well Tom It's a great shame Philip couldn't sell his game to a more
deserving party, not that I blaime him for this Brian fellow's 
stupidity, a


very blind man indeed if he can't realize what he's got :D.

If this is truly the case I would not be sorry for someone to pirate 
the
game as has already happened with the Bsc titles just to keep it in 
the
community,  oh and no, I don't know about any pirated copies of 
the bsc


games hanging aaround, such a thing is just a supposition by me.

Beware the grue!

Dark.


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Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home

[Josh K]

how is it stealing? stealing is taking something from someone and once 
you take it that person no longer has or owns it. example. i take your 
wallet with money in it, therefore you no longer have the wallet or the 
money I have it, I stole it from you.
now I buy a game. I get the unlock info and setup for the game. so now I 
have that info and also the developer of the game also has that same 
info. now I give my unlock code to you. so now you have my unlock code 
too. should you have it? no. but you do. but wait, the developer of the 
game still has his game, the source code, and the unlock code that he 
gave to me. I did not steal anything from him. the only thing i did was 
the developer lost money because i shared a game. this falls under the 
category of dishonesty not really stealing. how will we prosecute 
criminals when the day comes when lets say you have a nice car and I 
want that car. well stealing is a thing of the past I pull out my 
duplicator gun, point it at the car hit a button and voila! I have an 
exact working copy of your vehicle built atom by atom. and I even have 
your keys! oh but wait you still have your own car and your own keys. I 
should have paid for the car most that happened was the car dealer lost 
out on getting my money for something i should have baught rather than 
coppied. same thing happens if i borrow a book from a friend, read it, 
and i like it. technically i should have gone out and baught the book 
for myself so the author lost money because my friend shared his book 
with me. stealing is taking something so the original owner no longer 
has that thing. its stolen. this is not stealing its well copying. I 
think culturally we have to change our terms. pirates, they steal. that 
is pirates who loot ships and stuff they steal. but could we really call 
them pirates if they board your ship and duplicate the stuff they want 
put the copies on their ship and go off? no you still have the 
originals. and if that day comes even money will no longer have value. 
in fact if you can just copy everything then nothing has value because 
everything can be coppied. so we would then have to completely rethink 
our whole entire world economic system. and this could go on forever so 
I'll stop here.


follow me on twitter @joshknnd1982

On 7/28/2015 8:46 PM, Charles Rivard wrote:

I would not pirate, because that is stealing.  Period.

---
Be positive!  When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're 
finished, you! really! are! finished!
- Original Message - From: "Devin Prater" 


To: "Gamers Discussion list" 
Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2015 6:24 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home


I'm willing to bet that some cool hacker will make an add-on for NVDA 
to interface with that Jaws-fetish software that I can't spell. Then 
buying the thing wouldn't exactly be all that wasteful, although I'd 
rather pirate it to try it out for 30 minutes or so just to see how 
mind-numbingly restrictive and basic it is, than buy it, then throw 
it away.


Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 28, 2015, at 4:41 PM, Thomas Ward  
wrote:


Hi Dark,

Agreed. I wouldn't blame anyone for pirating the game in secret, and
no I can't feel sorry or any sympathy for Brian Hartgen if that
happens because its his own fault. Someone who clearly refuses to sell
single end user licenses to include it in a more expensive product,
something many people don't need, is just begging for disreputable
people to rip it off as fast as possible. Although, I don't personally
know of any such instances I wouldn't be surprised if this has not
already happened. People won't buy Leasey just to acquire a game that
use to sell for a fraction of the price. If they can they'll pirate it
instead, and that is a fact.




On 7/28/15, dark  wrote:
Well Tom It's a great shame Philip couldn't sell his game to a more
deserving party, not that I blaime him for this Brian fellow's 
stupidity, a


very blind man indeed if he can't realize what he's got :D.

If this is truly the case I would not be sorry for someone to 
pirate the
game as has already happened with the Bsc titles just to keep it in 
the
community,  oh and no, I don't know about any pirated copies of 
the bsc


games hanging aaround, such a thing is just a supposition by me.

Beware the grue!

Dark.


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Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home

[Charles Rivard]

A suggestion:  If the game is available as part of a package that really 
isn't usable to nonJAWS users, let people know that the game is available 
for, then list what it will cost people to get it.  If I can get the game 
for $150, and I'm only using this as an example, I won't buy it.  The game, 
which is all I am interested in, is not worth that price.  The loss of sales 
is then Brian's problem and Brian's fault.


---
Be positive!  When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished, 
you! really! are! finished!
- Original Message - 
From: "dark" 

To: "Gamers Discussion list" 
Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2015 7:25 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home



Hi Tom.

I've made a practice of not deleting games that were once available but 
currently are not from the db, sinse it's surprising how often old ones 
pop up, or in the cases of some games how people manage to acquire them 
anyway even if audiogames.net won't help people to do so unless the games 
are officially abandonware.

Hence why the pages for the bsc titles and bavisoft games are still up.
this is what the "unknown" license type is for, ie, we don't know what has 
become of the game.


I will not therefore remove Q9's entry, but I won't advertise sleasy 
either, I will put a note to the effect the rights have been sold but the 
game is legally unavailable, sinse for most intents and purposes, it is.


If this Brian Hartgen wants to contact me and discuss the problem, well 
I'll be glad to tell him what I think.


Beware the grue!

Dark.

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Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home

[Charles Rivard]

I'll bet that it has just the opposite effect.  I, for one, would not buy 
his package in order to get the game.  The game may be thought of as a bonus 
for those who buy, but I don't think it is enough of an incentive to boost 
package sales.


---
Be positive!  When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished, 
you! really! are! finished!
- Original Message - 
From: "Thomas Ward" 

To: "Gamers Discussion list" 
Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2015 4:32 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home



Hi Dark,

Not sure I'd go as far to call Brian Hartgen a moron since his reasons
for not selling Q9 separately makes sense from a certain business
point of view. As I understand it his entire purpose of acquiring the
game was not to sell the game but to use it to add onto his Leasey
product, to boost sales of Leasey, so seen from that perspective it
makes sense. There is a lot that could be said here greedy, scummy,
unfair, etc but the bottom line is he won't sell the game as a stand
alone product because it was never his intention to do it that way. He
is bundling it into his Leasey product and if you want it you have to
pay the big bucks for Leasey.

To be honest I don't think Brian Hartgen really thought about the
ramifications of what this would do and how angry this would make the
audio games community. He saw this as a simple business transaction,
one in which would boost sales of Leasey, and he didn't care if it
effectively took Q9 off the market. He is not a game developer per se,
and thus he has no ties to the community the way many long time audio
game developers do. So he just does not see it the same way we see it.
To him Q9 is just another piece of software to be sold or added to
Leasey rather than sold  as a separately existing product.

On 7/28/15, dark  wrote:

Well then he shal recieve my scorn for being a moron! Really, not selling
something to people is a great way to run a business.

Dark.


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Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home

[Charles Rivard]

If this is so, in fairness, we should think the same of him.  If the flaws 
in his thinking are pointed out to him, and he makes no changes, he's not a 
good businessman, and will lose out on potential customers, and deservedly 
so.


---
Be positive!  When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished, 
you! really! are! finished!
- Original Message - 
From: "Thomas Ward" 

To: "Gamers Discussion list" 
Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2015 4:47 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home



Hi Dark,

Unfortunately, that's not going to happen. I've read his blog posts
regarding Q9 and he sees Q9 as just another piece of software to be
purchased and added to his Leasey product. Nothing more, and nothing
less. So he does not realize the value of what he owns because as
happens all too often in business he just sees Q9 as a business
transaction and I don't even think he cares about the product itself
other than what it can do to boost sales of Leasey. This community
means nothing to him, and we all can bugger off.





On 7/28/15, dark  wrote:

It is true that "new games will come"
But with the number of audio games being so small, it's always a shame 
when


something is lost, this is one reason why justin Dobemire got such a lot 
of


deserved flack for what he did to bsc games, essentially making them 
legally


unavailable forever more amen.

I hope as I said,  this twit who develops leasy will realize the value of
what he owns and treat it with the respect it deserves.

All the best,

Dark.


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Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home

[lenron brown]

I would sometimes it's needed. I will not be one to sit up here and
lie and say I would never. bhaahahahahah.

On 7/28/15, Charles Rivard  wrote:
> I would not pirate, because that is stealing.  Period.
>
> ---
> Be positive!  When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished,
>
> you! really! are! finished!
> - Original Message -
> From: "Devin Prater" 
> To: "Gamers Discussion list" 
> Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2015 6:24 PM
> Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home
>
>
>> I'm willing to bet that some cool hacker will make an add-on for NVDA to
>> interface with that Jaws-fetish software that I can't spell. Then buying
>> the thing wouldn't exactly be all that wasteful, although I'd rather
>> pirate it to try it out for 30 minutes or so just to see how
>> mind-numbingly restrictive and basic it is, than buy it, then throw it
>> away.
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>> On Jul 28, 2015, at 4:41 PM, Thomas Ward 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Dark,
>>>
>>> Agreed. I wouldn't blame anyone for pirating the game in secret, and
>>> no I can't feel sorry or any sympathy for Brian Hartgen if that
>>> happens because its his own fault. Someone who clearly refuses to sell
>>> single end user licenses to include it in a more expensive product,
>>> something many people don't need, is just begging for disreputable
>>> people to rip it off as fast as possible. Although, I don't personally
>>> know of any such instances I wouldn't be surprised if this has not
>>> already happened. People won't buy Leasey just to acquire a game that
>>> use to sell for a fraction of the price. If they can they'll pirate it
>>> instead, and that is a fact.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> On 7/28/15, dark  wrote:
>>>> Well Tom It's a great shame Philip couldn't sell his game to a more
>>>> deserving party, not that I blaime him for this Brian fellow's
>>>> stupidity, a
>>>>
>>>> very blind man indeed if he can't realize what he's got :D.
>>>>
>>>> If this is truly the case I would not be sorry for someone to pirate
>>>> the
>>>> game as has already happened with the Bsc titles just to keep it in the
>>>> community,  oh and no, I don't know about any pirated copies of the
>>>>
>>>> bsc
>>>>
>>>> games hanging aaround, such a thing is just a supposition by me.
>>>>
>>>> Beware the grue!
>>>>
>>>> Dark.
>>>>
>>>>
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Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home

[Charles Rivard]

I would show it as it is, honestly, pointing out the pitfalls, and let him 
suffer the consequences.


---
Be positive!  When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished, 
you! really! are! finished!
- Original Message - 
From: "dark" 

To: "Gamers Discussion list" 
Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2015 5:05 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home



Well Tom, in that case he can bugger off as well!

Ive got half a mind to change the license type to "unknown" for Q9 in the 
audiogames.net db and put a note to the effect similar to those on the bsc 
games that the developer, ie, philip is no longer selling the game and it 
is legally unavailable, sinse hay if this prat won't support the 
community, why should that community support him?


Then again, even if I just wrote the truth that the game is only now 
available with a package software deal that requires a Jaws license and 
even for someone with a Jaws license will cost $150, I doubt it'll improve 
his sales figures anyway :D.




Beware the grue!

Dark.

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Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home

[Thomas Ward]

Dark,

Agreed. I wouldn't send the guy hate mail either, and when I did send
him an e-mail about Q9 I did my best to be polite and courteous.
However, I can completely understand the motivations behind some
others sending him hate mail or wanting to kick his door down and just
take the game by force if they could.
The way he is behaving engenders  bad feelings on both sides,and
ultimately I think it will come back to bite him on the backside one
way or another.

For one thing there are plenty of people who have valid licenses of Q9
anyway so they won't be buying Leasey unless they genuinely want that
product. Those who don't have Q9 licenses either do not want the game
or like me won't pay for Leasey just to own that particular game.
There is the issue that Leasey is a Jaws specific product, is written
as a Jaws add-on, so wouldn't be available to non-Jaws  users anyway.
So whatever he thinks owning Q9 will gain him isn't much. I don't
really see it boosting sales of Leasey, and ultimately this
acquisition is doomed to failure as a marketing ploy.



On 7/28/15, dark  wrote:
> Hi Tom.
>
> I wouldn't go as far as actually sending the guy hate mail, and I confess my
>
> wish that leasy fails was a little bit of bile on my part, however my
> thoughts on piracy are actually serious ones, sinse frankly if something is
>
> made unavailable, that is the time people are going to turn to piracy, even
>
> people who would not normally do so. This has as I said, already happened
> with the Bsc titles, code factory and bavisoft.
>
> While sending actual hate male and getting nasty is going further than I
> would, I can understand the impulse behind it sinse frankly this chap is
> behaving abominably,  and yes, even if it is in line with business, that
>
> doesn't stop it being abominable (quite the reverse in fact sinse more
> frequently than not good business is just a psudonim for grasping and
> greedy).
>
> the game already exists as a stand alone program, it doesn't rquire jaws or
>
> any screen reader, there is absolutely no need for this, and I ultimately
> don't think it'll do him much good in the long run.
>
> As to the community, well it's part of the problem with any small community,
>
> bad feelings go further sinse there is no getting away from them, (look at
> the salem witch trials). As I said, actually attacking the guy for all I  my
>
> less than stellar opinion of what he's doing to such a great game as Q9 is
> far further than I would go, and I do understand the impulse behind it even
>
> if I don't agree with the behaviour.
>
> Beware the grue!
>
> DArk.
>
>
> ---
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> gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org.
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Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home

[Charles Rivard]

I would think that he's shooting himself in both feet with this practice. 
As for hoping that he goes bankrupt or anything like that, I hope not.  I 
wouldn't wish that on anyone.  However, I feel that sensibly written 
complaints are valid, and I hope that, eventually, he sees the light and 
does what is appropriate.  If the game is made available as a stand alone 
purchase, I hope he considers that a quick nickel always beats a slow dollar 
when it comes to income.


---
Be positive!  When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished, 
you! really! are! finished!
- Original Message - 
From: "Thomas Ward" 

To: "Gamers Discussion list" 
Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2015 6:20 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home



Hi Dark,

I agree. Selling Q9 as a separate product might do him more good than
including it as an add-on for Leasey, but apparently he thinks
otherwise. Unfortunately, he doesn't seem to care what we think and I
don't see that situation changing any time soon.

As for your feelings on the matter I'm pretty certain a lot of others
are wishing him and his business ill will right now. He said in his
most recent blog post that he has been getting a lot of hate mail over
this, and I'm not surprised. As a recipient of some of that hate mail
myself I know how nasty this community can be when something gets them
upset over something. So I wouldn't be surprised if there are others
who think as you do that are hoping Leasey fails, that Brian goes
financially bankrupt,  or someone pirates his software into oblivion.
None of which are a bit realistic, but I guess if it helps quell
someone's rage to dream about such things they will.



On 7/28/15, dark  wrote:
Well tom, good business practice and moron hood are not mutually 
exclusive

concepts :D.

Ultimately Q9 would do him more good as a stand alone program than just 
as a


little extra addon for his Leasy thing, sinse I suspect there are far 
more
potential Nvda, window eyes and supernova users who would buy Q9 as a 
game
than there are Jaws users who would decide to buy Leasy based on the fact 
it


comes with Q9.

no, this chap isn't part of the community, but frankly if you just go
acquiring random software and selling without a knolidge of your customer
base or what good that software might do and think you can stuff it in a 
box


as a job lot and sell to your usual customers, you are a Moron indeed!

I hope he does see sense, or goes out of business, or that people pirate 
the


game sinse I hate to see audiogames lost to posterity, especially for 
such a


ridiculous reason as one man's short sighted greed.

Of course as I said, none of this is Philip's fault, I just wish he'd 
sold

the rights to someone less scummy, or more intelligent.
Beware the grue!

Dark.


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Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home

[Charles Rivard]

I would not pirate, because that is stealing.  Period.

---
Be positive!  When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished, 
you! really! are! finished!
- Original Message - 
From: "Devin Prater" 

To: "Gamers Discussion list" 
Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2015 6:24 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home


I'm willing to bet that some cool hacker will make an add-on for NVDA to 
interface with that Jaws-fetish software that I can't spell. Then buying 
the thing wouldn't exactly be all that wasteful, although I'd rather 
pirate it to try it out for 30 minutes or so just to see how 
mind-numbingly restrictive and basic it is, than buy it, then throw it 
away.


Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 28, 2015, at 4:41 PM, Thomas Ward  
wrote:


Hi Dark,

Agreed. I wouldn't blame anyone for pirating the game in secret, and
no I can't feel sorry or any sympathy for Brian Hartgen if that
happens because its his own fault. Someone who clearly refuses to sell
single end user licenses to include it in a more expensive product,
something many people don't need, is just begging for disreputable
people to rip it off as fast as possible. Although, I don't personally
know of any such instances I wouldn't be surprised if this has not
already happened. People won't buy Leasey just to acquire a game that
use to sell for a fraction of the price. If they can they'll pirate it
instead, and that is a fact.




On 7/28/15, dark  wrote:
Well Tom It's a great shame Philip couldn't sell his game to a more
deserving party, not that I blaime him for this Brian fellow's 
stupidity, a


very blind man indeed if he can't realize what he's got :D.

If this is truly the case I would not be sorry for someone to pirate the
game as has already happened with the Bsc titles just to keep it in the
community,  oh and no, I don't know about any pirated copies of the 
bsc


games hanging aaround, such a thing is just a supposition by me.

Beware the grue!

Dark.


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Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home

[Thomas Ward]

Hi Dark,

Fair enough. That seems to me to be a fair compromise.



On 7/28/15, dark  wrote:
> Hi Tom.
>
> I've made a practice of not deleting games that were once available but
> currently are not from the db, sinse it's surprising how often old ones pop
>
> up, or in the cases of some games how people manage to acquire them anyway
> even if audiogames.net won't help people to do so unless the games are
> officially abandonware.
> Hence why the pages for the bsc titles and bavisoft games are still up.
> this is what the "unknown" license type is for, ie, we don't know what has
> become of the game.
>
> I will not therefore remove Q9's entry, but I won't advertise sleasy either,
>
> I will put a note to the effect the rights have been sold but the game is
> legally unavailable, sinse for most intents and purposes, it is.
>
> If this Brian Hartgen wants to contact me and discuss the problem, well I'll
>
> be glad to tell him what I think.
>
> Beware the grue!
>
> Dark.
>
>
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Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home

[dark]

Hi Tom.

I've made a practice of not deleting games that were once available but 
currently are not from the db, sinse it's surprising how often old ones pop 
up, or in the cases of some games how people manage to acquire them anyway 
even if audiogames.net won't help people to do so unless the games are 
officially abandonware.

Hence why the pages for the bsc titles and bavisoft games are still up.
this is what the "unknown" license type is for, ie, we don't know what has 
become of the game.


I will not therefore remove Q9's entry, but I won't advertise sleasy either, 
I will put a note to the effect the rights have been sold but the game is 
legally unavailable, sinse for most intents and purposes, it is.


If this Brian Hartgen wants to contact me and discuss the problem, well I'll 
be glad to tell him what I think.


Beware the grue!

Dark. 



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Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home

[dark]

Hi Tom.

I wouldn't go as far as actually sending the guy hate mail, and I confess my 
wish that leasy fails was a little bit of bile on my part, however my 
thoughts on piracy are actually serious ones, sinse frankly if something is 
made unavailable, that is the time people are going to turn to piracy, even 
people who would not normally do so. This has as I said, already happened 
with the Bsc titles, code factory and bavisoft.


While sending actual hate male and getting nasty is going further than I 
would, I can understand the impulse behind it sinse frankly this chap is 
behaving abominably,  and yes, even if it is in line with business, that 
doesn't stop it being abominable (quite the reverse in fact sinse more 
frequently than not good business is just a psudonim for grasping and 
greedy).


the game already exists as a stand alone program, it doesn't rquire jaws or 
any screen reader, there is absolutely no need for this, and I ultimately 
don't think it'll do him much good in the long run.


As to the community, well it's part of the problem with any small community, 
bad feelings go further sinse there is no getting away from them, (look at 
the salem witch trials). As I said, actually attacking the guy for all I  my 
less than stellar opinion of what he's doing to such a great game as Q9 is 
far further than I would go, and I do understand the impulse behind it even 
if I don't agree with the behaviour.


Beware the grue!

DArk. 



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Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home

[Katie Epperson]

Oh, look at what you just sent. You must be very brave. I'm not going to do 
anything, but that doesn't sound like a good idea



> On Jul 28, 2015, at 7:24 PM, Devin Prater  wrote:
> 
> I'm willing to bet that some cool hacker will make an add-on for NVDA to 
> interface with that Jaws-fetish software that I can't spell. Then buying the 
> thing wouldn't exactly be all that wasteful, although I'd rather pirate it to 
> try it out for 30 minutes or so just to see how mind-numbingly restrictive 
> and basic it is, than buy it, then throw it away.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Jul 28, 2015, at 4:41 PM, Thomas Ward  wrote:
>> 
>> Hi Dark,
>> 
>> Agreed. I wouldn't blame anyone for pirating the game in secret, and
>> no I can't feel sorry or any sympathy for Brian Hartgen if that
>> happens because its his own fault. Someone who clearly refuses to sell
>> single end user licenses to include it in a more expensive product,
>> something many people don't need, is just begging for disreputable
>> people to rip it off as fast as possible. Although, I don't personally
>> know of any such instances I wouldn't be surprised if this has not
>> already happened. People won't buy Leasey just to acquire a game that
>> use to sell for a fraction of the price. If they can they'll pirate it
>> instead, and that is a fact.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On 7/28/15, dark  wrote:
>>> Well Tom It's a great shame Philip couldn't sell his game to a more
>>> deserving party, not that I blaime him for this Brian fellow's stupidity, a
>>> 
>>> very blind man indeed if he can't realize what he's got :D.
>>> 
>>> If this is truly the case I would not be sorry for someone to pirate the
>>> game as has already happened with the Bsc titles just to keep it in the
>>> community,  oh and no, I don't know about any pirated copies of the bsc
>>> 
>>> games hanging aaround, such a thing is just a supposition by me.
>>> 
>>> Beware the grue!
>>> 
>>> Dark.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> ---
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>>> gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org.
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>> 
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Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home

[Thomas Ward]

Hi Josh,

Yeah, of course it isn't fair. From now on if someone wants the game
they have to pirate it. Sad but true. There is no longer a legal way
to affordably purchase the game.



On 7/28/15, Josh K  wrote:
> but that's not fair! what if someone wants to buy the stand alone
> version? now they cannot get it at all!
>
> follow me on twitter @joshknnd1982

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Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home

[Thomas Ward]

Dark,

Honestly I wouldn't blame you a bit for doing that. I'd be perfectly
okay with you just wiping it from the Audiogames.net database,,
because the way I feel about it as long as Brian Hartgen refuses to
sell single end user licenses for Q9 the game is basically unavailable
for all intents and purposes. If he won't honor this communities
wishes for a way to buy the game separate from Leasey then I see no
need to support him in any way, shape, or form by advertising his
products on Audiogames.net or Audyssey.  Let him find his own outlets
and methods of selling the game, but we do not have to participate.
Petty revenge some might say, but he doesn't deserve respect or
acknowledgement after the way he is handling this transaction.

As it so happens I have been working on some site updates to Audyssey,
creating a searchable index of games, etc and I've decided in light of
his attitude to just drop Q9 from the index. As far as Audyssey is
concerned the game does not exist. If Brian Hartgen wants our index to
include the game then he is going to have to make a stand alone
version available or be excluded. I do not support or endorse the way
he is selling the game as part of Leasey, I think that is wrong, and
it will be reflected in the up and coming site updates as Q9 for all
intents and purposes no longer exists to my mind.



On 7/28/15, dark  wrote:
> Well Tom, in that case he can bugger off as well!
>
> Ive got half a mind to change the license type to "unknown" for Q9 in the
> audiogames.net db and put a note to the effect similar to those on the bsc
> games that the developer, ie, philip is no longer selling the game and it is
>
> legally unavailable, sinse hay if this prat won't support the community, why
>
> should that community support him?
>
> Then again, even if I just wrote the truth that the game is only now
> available with a package software deal that requires a Jaws license and even
>
> for someone with a Jaws license will cost $150, I doubt it'll improve his
> sales figures anyway :D.
>
>
>
> Beware the grue!
>
> Dark.
>
>
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Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home

[Devin Prater]

Of course its not fair. That's why we scorn the name of that Jaws fetishist.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jul 28, 2015, at 6:20 PM, Josh K  wrote:
> 
> but that's not fair! what if someone wants to buy the stand alone version? 
> now they cannot get it at all!
> 
> follow me on twitter @joshknnd1982
> 
>> On 7/28/2015 4:43 PM, Scott Chesworth wrote:
>> Legally, nope.
>> 
>>> On 7/28/15, Josh K  wrote:
>>> can I give my q9 standard version key to people who want q9 but who
>>> don't want to buy jaws and leesy?
>>> 
>>> follow me on twitter @joshknnd1982
>>> 
>>>> On 7/28/2015 11:01 AM, dark wrote:
>>>> It is true that "new games will come"
>>>> But with the number of audio games being so small, it's always a shame
>>>> when something is lost, this is one reason why justin Dobemire got
>>>> such a lot of deserved flack for what he did to bsc games, essentially
>>>> making them legally unavailable forever more amen.
>>>> 
>>>> I hope as I said,  this twit who develops leasy will realize the value
>>>> of what he owns and treat it with the respect it deserves.
>>>> 
>>>> All the best,
>>>> 
>>>> Dark.
>>>> - Original Message - From: "Devin Prater"
>>>> 
>>>> To: "Gamers Discussion list" 
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2015 1:01 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> Philip legally doesn't even own the product he created anymore. There
>>>>> is literally nothing he can do. He can't sell his own game, he can't
>>>>> reclaim it, its just not his anymore. But y'all don't worry. New
>>>>> games will come, with developers with new creativity and better
>>>>> sense, and Liesy and its Jaws fetish will rise and it'll fall.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Jul 27, 2015, at 1:31 PM, Scott Chesworth
>>>>>>  wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Hi Philip,
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I've read the AudioGames topic you linked to, and whilst I totally
>>>>>> understand your decision to transfer ownership as a means of being
>>>>>> paid for the time you've put into developing Q9, I can't help echoing
>>>>>> the thoughts of many in that discussion that JAWS being a requirement
>>>>>> for Q9 is a shame. A decade ago when JAWS was the biggest fish in the
>>>>>> pond, this would've made more sense, but nowadays...?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Is there no scope to offer an alternative sales channel through
>>>>>> Blastbay for people who don't use JAWS?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Scott
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On 7/24/15, Philip Bennefall  wrote:
>>>>>>> Hi again,
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Just wanted to follow up briefly and point those who have questions as
>>>>>>> to why I transferred the rights of Q9, to the audiogames.net topic
>>>>>>> under
>>>>>>> general game discussion. Hopefully I have managed to answer all the
>>>>>>> questions there.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=225202#p225202
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Kind regards,
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Philip Bennefall
>>>>>>>> On 7/23/2015 4:17 PM, Philip Bennefall wrote:
>>>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> I just wanted to post a quick announcement to let you all know
>>>>>>>> that Q9
>>>>>>>> is moving. From today, the Q9 action game will no longer be sold from
>>>>>>>> Blastbay Studios but will instead be available as part of the Leasey
>>>>>>>> package (www.leaseycentral.com). Of course, all existing users can
>>>>>>>> continue to play the game normally; all issued keys remain valid and
>>>>>>>> can be reused if you format your PC or buy a new one.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Kind regards,
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Philip Ben

Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home

[Devin Prater]

I'm willing to bet that some cool hacker will make an add-on for NVDA to 
interface with that Jaws-fetish software that I can't spell. Then buying the 
thing wouldn't exactly be all that wasteful, although I'd rather pirate it to 
try it out for 30 minutes or so just to see how mind-numbingly restrictive and 
basic it is, than buy it, then throw it away.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jul 28, 2015, at 4:41 PM, Thomas Ward  wrote:
> 
> Hi Dark,
> 
> Agreed. I wouldn't blame anyone for pirating the game in secret, and
> no I can't feel sorry or any sympathy for Brian Hartgen if that
> happens because its his own fault. Someone who clearly refuses to sell
> single end user licenses to include it in a more expensive product,
> something many people don't need, is just begging for disreputable
> people to rip it off as fast as possible. Although, I don't personally
> know of any such instances I wouldn't be surprised if this has not
> already happened. People won't buy Leasey just to acquire a game that
> use to sell for a fraction of the price. If they can they'll pirate it
> instead, and that is a fact.
> 
> 
> 
>> On 7/28/15, dark  wrote:
>> Well Tom It's a great shame Philip couldn't sell his game to a more
>> deserving party, not that I blaime him for this Brian fellow's stupidity, a
>> 
>> very blind man indeed if he can't realize what he's got :D.
>> 
>> If this is truly the case I would not be sorry for someone to pirate the
>> game as has already happened with the Bsc titles just to keep it in the
>> community,  oh and no, I don't know about any pirated copies of the bsc
>> 
>> games hanging aaround, such a thing is just a supposition by me.
>> 
>> Beware the grue!
>> 
>> Dark.
>> 
>> 
>> ---
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> 
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Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home

[Josh K]

but that's not fair! what if someone wants to buy the stand alone 
version? now they cannot get it at all!


follow me on twitter @joshknnd1982

On 7/28/2015 4:43 PM, Scott Chesworth wrote:

Legally, nope.

On 7/28/15, Josh K  wrote:

can I give my q9 standard version key to people who want q9 but who
don't want to buy jaws and leesy?

follow me on twitter @joshknnd1982

On 7/28/2015 11:01 AM, dark wrote:

It is true that "new games will come"
But with the number of audio games being so small, it's always a shame
when something is lost, this is one reason why justin Dobemire got
such a lot of deserved flack for what he did to bsc games, essentially
making them legally unavailable forever more amen.

I hope as I said,  this twit who develops leasy will realize the value
of what he owns and treat it with the respect it deserves.

All the best,

Dark.
- Original Message - From: "Devin Prater"

To: "Gamers Discussion list" 
Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2015 1:01 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home



Philip legally doesn't even own the product he created anymore. There
is literally nothing he can do. He can't sell his own game, he can't
reclaim it, its just not his anymore. But y'all don't worry. New
games will come, with developers with new creativity and better
sense, and Liesy and its Jaws fetish will rise and it'll fall.

Sent from my iPhone


On Jul 27, 2015, at 1:31 PM, Scott Chesworth
 wrote:

Hi Philip,

I've read the AudioGames topic you linked to, and whilst I totally
understand your decision to transfer ownership as a means of being
paid for the time you've put into developing Q9, I can't help echoing
the thoughts of many in that discussion that JAWS being a requirement
for Q9 is a shame. A decade ago when JAWS was the biggest fish in the
pond, this would've made more sense, but nowadays...?

Is there no scope to offer an alternative sales channel through
Blastbay for people who don't use JAWS?

Scott


On 7/24/15, Philip Bennefall  wrote:
Hi again,

Just wanted to follow up briefly and point those who have questions as
to why I transferred the rights of Q9, to the audiogames.net topic
under
general game discussion. Hopefully I have managed to answer all the
questions there.

http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=225202#p225202

Kind regards,

Philip Bennefall

On 7/23/2015 4:17 PM, Philip Bennefall wrote:
Hi all,

I just wanted to post a quick announcement to let you all know
that Q9
is moving. From today, the Q9 action game will no longer be sold from
Blastbay Studios but will instead be available as part of the Leasey
package (www.leaseycentral.com). Of course, all existing users can
continue to play the game normally; all issued keys remain valid and
can be reused if you format your PC or buy a new one.

Kind regards,

Philip Bennefall

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Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home

[Thomas Ward]

Hi Dark,

I agree. Selling Q9 as a separate product might do him more good than
including it as an add-on for Leasey, but apparently he thinks
otherwise. Unfortunately, he doesn't seem to care what we think and I
don't see that situation changing any time soon.

As for your feelings on the matter I'm pretty certain a lot of others
are wishing him and his business ill will right now. He said in his
most recent blog post that he has been getting a lot of hate mail over
this, and I'm not surprised. As a recipient of some of that hate mail
myself I know how nasty this community can be when something gets them
upset over something. So I wouldn't be surprised if there are others
who think as you do that are hoping Leasey fails, that Brian goes
financially bankrupt,  or someone pirates his software into oblivion.
None of which are a bit realistic, but I guess if it helps quell
someone's rage to dream about such things they will.



On 7/28/15, dark  wrote:
> Well tom, good business practice and moron hood are not mutually exclusive
> concepts :D.
>
> Ultimately Q9 would do him more good as a stand alone program than just as a
>
> little extra addon for his Leasy thing, sinse I suspect there are far more
> potential Nvda, window eyes and supernova users who would buy Q9 as a game
> than there are Jaws users who would decide to buy Leasy based on the fact it
>
> comes with Q9.
>
> no, this chap isn't part of the community, but frankly if you just go
> acquiring random software and selling without a knolidge of your customer
> base or what good that software might do and think you can stuff it in a box
>
> as a job lot and sell to your usual customers, you are a Moron indeed!
>
> I hope he does see sense, or goes out of business, or that people pirate the
>
> game sinse I hate to see audiogames lost to posterity, especially for such a
>
> ridiculous reason as one man's short sighted greed.
>
> Of course as I said, none of this is Philip's fault, I just wish he'd sold
> the rights to someone less scummy, or more intelligent.
> Beware the grue!
>
> Dark.
>
>
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Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home

[Devin Prater]

All I'll say is that a non-gamer should never even attempt to actually sell a 
game. He usually screws up and makes everyone mad in the process. Now, he'll 
get fewer, I'm willing to bet, purchases of his Jaws-fetishist product than he 
would have if he'd stuck to his element and just kept slobbering over his first 
love, Jaws. 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jul 28, 2015, at 4:32 PM, Thomas Ward  wrote:
> 
> Hi Dark,
> 
> Not sure I'd go as far to call Brian Hartgen a moron since his reasons
> for not selling Q9 separately makes sense from a certain business
> point of view. As I understand it his entire purpose of acquiring the
> game was not to sell the game but to use it to add onto his Leasey
> product, to boost sales of Leasey, so seen from that perspective it
> makes sense. There is a lot that could be said here greedy, scummy,
> unfair, etc but the bottom line is he won't sell the game as a stand
> alone product because it was never his intention to do it that way. He
> is bundling it into his Leasey product and if you want it you have to
> pay the big bucks for Leasey.
> 
> To be honest I don't think Brian Hartgen really thought about the
> ramifications of what this would do and how angry this would make the
> audio games community. He saw this as a simple business transaction,
> one in which would boost sales of Leasey, and he didn't care if it
> effectively took Q9 off the market. He is not a game developer per se,
> and thus he has no ties to the community the way many long time audio
> game developers do. So he just does not see it the same way we see it.
> To him Q9 is just another piece of software to be sold or added to
> Leasey rather than sold  as a separately existing product.
> 
>> On 7/28/15, dark  wrote:
>> Well then he shal recieve my scorn for being a moron! Really, not selling
>> something to people is a great way to run a business.
>> 
>> Dark.
> 
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Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home

[Devin Prater]

Lol, you could, obviously, but Mister Hard Gin might sue you.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jul 28, 2015, at 12:53 PM, Josh K  wrote:
> 
> can I give my q9 standard version key to people who want q9 but who don't 
> want to buy jaws and leesy?
> 
> follow me on twitter @joshknnd1982
> 
>> On 7/28/2015 11:01 AM, dark wrote:
>> It is true that "new games will come"
>> But with the number of audio games being so small, it's always a shame when 
>> something is lost, this is one reason why justin Dobemire got such a lot of 
>> deserved flack for what he did to bsc games, essentially making them legally 
>> unavailable forever more amen.
>> 
>> I hope as I said,  this twit who develops leasy will realize the value of 
>> what he owns and treat it with the respect it deserves.
>> 
>> All the best,
>> 
>> Dark.
>> - Original Message ----- From: "Devin Prater" 
>> To: "Gamers Discussion list" 
>> Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2015 1:01 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home
>> 
>> 
>>> Philip legally doesn't even own the product he created anymore. There is 
>>> literally nothing he can do. He can't sell his own game, he can't reclaim 
>>> it, its just not his anymore. But y'all don't worry. New games will come, 
>>> with developers with new creativity and better sense, and Liesy and its 
>>> Jaws fetish will rise and it'll fall.
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
>>>> On Jul 27, 2015, at 1:31 PM, Scott Chesworth  
>>>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Hi Philip,
>>>> 
>>>> I've read the AudioGames topic you linked to, and whilst I totally
>>>> understand your decision to transfer ownership as a means of being
>>>> paid for the time you've put into developing Q9, I can't help echoing
>>>> the thoughts of many in that discussion that JAWS being a requirement
>>>> for Q9 is a shame. A decade ago when JAWS was the biggest fish in the
>>>> pond, this would've made more sense, but nowadays...?
>>>> 
>>>> Is there no scope to offer an alternative sales channel through
>>>> Blastbay for people who don't use JAWS?
>>>> 
>>>> Scott
>>>> 
>>>>> On 7/24/15, Philip Bennefall  wrote:
>>>>> Hi again,
>>>>> 
>>>>> Just wanted to follow up briefly and point those who have questions as
>>>>> to why I transferred the rights of Q9, to the audiogames.net topic under
>>>>> general game discussion. Hopefully I have managed to answer all the
>>>>> questions there.
>>>>> 
>>>>> http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=225202#p225202
>>>>> 
>>>>> Kind regards,
>>>>> 
>>>>> Philip Bennefall
>>>>>> On 7/23/2015 4:17 PM, Philip Bennefall wrote:
>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I just wanted to post a quick announcement to let you all know that Q9
>>>>>> is moving. From today, the Q9 action game will no longer be sold from
>>>>>> Blastbay Studios but will instead be available as part of the Leasey
>>>>>> package (www.leaseycentral.com). Of course, all existing users can
>>>>>> continue to play the game normally; all issued keys remain valid and
>>>>>> can be reused if you format your PC or buy a new one.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Kind regards,
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Philip Bennefall
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> ---
>>>>>> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org
>>>>>> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
>>>>>> gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org.
>>>>>> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
>>>>>> http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
>>>>>> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
>>>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org.
>>>>>> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
>>>>>> list,
>>>>>> please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
>>>>>> .
>>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> ---
>>>>> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org
>>>

Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home

[john]

There might be a chance of Phillip having your order details somewhere, but 
I wouldn't bet on it, especially after a while. Might be worth getting in 
touch though, just in case.

--
From: "Jessica |M" 
Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2015 19:07
To: "Gamers Discussion list" 
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home

|I bought Q9 several years ago, and had fun playing it.  The computer
I ran it on isn't functional these days, and I somehow lost track of
my authorization key, so it's a shame I'll not be able to play it
again unless I want to pay nearly $200, something |I'm not about to
do.  Firstly, it's because |I don't have that kind of money to spare,
and secondly, like others have said, I believe it's unfair to make
interested parties pay that price, just to be able to play a game,
and bundle it with software they won't use otherwise.  I haven't kept
with Leasey, but this prompts me to go search out just exactly what
it is, out of curiosity.  Brian will be the one who eventually will
lose money by not selling the game separately, as many more people
are willing to pay 20 or 30 bucks for a game, than they would be to
shell out five times that much.  A majority of us are on low income,
so couldn't afford such a thing, even if some of us otherwise might
pay that kind of price, which is unlikely to begin with.

At 04:15 PM 7/28/2015, you wrote:
>Hi Josh,
>
> From a legal point of view the answer is no. It would be considered
>piracy to give your product key to anyone who wants it.
>
>That said, there is a saying that fits. Anything is legal as long as
>you don't get caught. Giving out your key would not technically be
>legal or ethical, but as long as you didn't get caught at it you could
>do whatever you wanted.
>
>
>On 7/28/15, Josh K  wrote:
> > can I give my q9 standard version key to people who want q9 but who
> > don't want to buy jaws and leesy?
> >
> > follow me on twitter @joshknnd1982
> >
>
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Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home

[Jessica |M]

|I bought Q9 several years ago, and had fun playing it.  The computer 
I ran it on isn't functional these days, and I somehow lost track of 
my authorization key, so it's a shame I'll not be able to play it 
again unless I want to pay nearly $200, something |I'm not about to 
do.  Firstly, it's because |I don't have that kind of money to spare, 
and secondly, like others have said, I believe it's unfair to make 
interested parties pay that price, just to be able to play a game, 
and bundle it with software they won't use otherwise.  I haven't kept 
with Leasey, but this prompts me to go search out just exactly what 
it is, out of curiosity.  Brian will be the one who eventually will 
lose money by not selling the game separately, as many more people 
are willing to pay 20 or 30 bucks for a game, than they would be to 
shell out five times that much.  A majority of us are on low income, 
so couldn't afford such a thing, even if some of us otherwise might 
pay that kind of price, which is unlikely to begin with.


At 04:15 PM 7/28/2015, you wrote:

Hi Josh,

From a legal point of view the answer is no. It would be considered
piracy to give your product key to anyone who wants it.

That said, there is a saying that fits. Anything is legal as long as
you don't get caught. Giving out your key would not technically be
legal or ethical, but as long as you didn't get caught at it you could
do whatever you wanted.


On 7/28/15, Josh K  wrote:
> can I give my q9 standard version key to people who want q9 but who
> don't want to buy jaws and leesy?
>
> follow me on twitter @joshknnd1982
>

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Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home

[dark]

Well Tom, in that case he can bugger off as well!

Ive got half a mind to change the license type to "unknown" for Q9 in the 
audiogames.net db and put a note to the effect similar to those on the bsc 
games that the developer, ie, philip is no longer selling the game and it is 
legally unavailable, sinse hay if this prat won't support the community, why 
should that community support him?


Then again, even if I just wrote the truth that the game is only now 
available with a package software deal that requires a Jaws license and even 
for someone with a Jaws license will cost $150, I doubt it'll improve his 
sales figures anyway :D.




Beware the grue!

Dark. 



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Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home

[Thomas Ward]

Hi Dark,

Unfortunately, that's not going to happen. I've read his blog posts
regarding Q9 and he sees Q9 as just another piece of software to be
purchased and added to his Leasey product. Nothing more, and nothing
less. So he does not realize the value of what he owns because as
happens all too often in business he just sees Q9 as a business
transaction and I don't even think he cares about the product itself
other than what it can do to boost sales of Leasey. This community
means nothing to him, and we all can bugger off.





On 7/28/15, dark  wrote:
> It is true that "new games will come"
> But with the number of audio games being so small, it's always a shame when
>
> something is lost, this is one reason why justin Dobemire got such a lot of
>
> deserved flack for what he did to bsc games, essentially making them legally
>
> unavailable forever more amen.
>
> I hope as I said,  this twit who develops leasy will realize the value of
> what he owns and treat it with the respect it deserves.
>
> All the best,
>
> Dark.

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Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home

[Thomas Ward]

Hi Dark,

Agreed. I wouldn't blame anyone for pirating the game in secret, and
no I can't feel sorry or any sympathy for Brian Hartgen if that
happens because its his own fault. Someone who clearly refuses to sell
single end user licenses to include it in a more expensive product,
something many people don't need, is just begging for disreputable
people to rip it off as fast as possible. Although, I don't personally
know of any such instances I wouldn't be surprised if this has not
already happened. People won't buy Leasey just to acquire a game that
use to sell for a fraction of the price. If they can they'll pirate it
instead, and that is a fact.



On 7/28/15, dark  wrote:
> Well Tom It's a great shame Philip couldn't sell his game to a more
> deserving party, not that I blaime him for this Brian fellow's stupidity, a
>
> very blind man indeed if he can't realize what he's got :D.
>
> If this is truly the case I would not be sorry for someone to pirate the
> game as has already happened with the Bsc titles just to keep it in the
> community,  oh and no, I don't know about any pirated copies of the bsc
>
> games hanging aaround, such a thing is just a supposition by me.
>
> Beware the grue!
>
> Dark.
>
>
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Re: [Audyssey] Q9 Has a New Home

[dark]

Well tom, good business practice and moron hood are not mutually exclusive 
concepts :D.


Ultimately Q9 would do him more good as a stand alone program than just as a 
little extra addon for his Leasy thing, sinse I suspect there are far more 
potential Nvda, window eyes and supernova users who would buy Q9 as a game 
than there are Jaws users who would decide to buy Leasy based on the fact it 
comes with Q9.


no, this chap isn't part of the community, but frankly if you just go 
acquiring random software and selling without a knolidge of your customer 
base or what good that software might do and think you can stuff it in a box 
as a job lot and sell to your usual customers, you are a Moron indeed!


I hope he does see sense, or goes out of business, or that people pirate the 
game sinse I hate to see audiogames lost to posterity, especially for such a 
ridiculous reason as one man's short sighted greed.


Of course as I said, none of this is Philip's fault, I just wish he'd sold 
the rights to someone less scummy, or more intelligent.

Beware the grue!

Dark. 



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