Sun to host Online Live Q/A Conference on Java Application Deployment (WebStart) tmrw March 1st
Some of you are familiar with limits of applets. Web start (JNLP) allows for a more of a rich user interface then what we can do w/ Applets and DHTML. But deploying Java, applets and applications over the internet can be a challenge, including security warnings for registered applications and installation of current version of java by non-computer savvy users of our applications (can your father in law install and launch a WebStart application?) The lead of Suns Java deployment team and usability experts (Mike Albers -J2SE UI expert will be there hopefully) will answer your questions at 11 AM California time and guide you. Here are the details of how to participate for FREE: http://java.sun.com/developer/community/chat Above link should be enough. More? Some people are *boycotting* the chat conference because of issues since about 2001(it appears that a individuals at Sun believe that they should PERVENT deployment that they are doing us a favor, listed here: http://lopica.sourceforge.net/faq.html One important issue was picked up here (Scary screen for registered applications) http://forums.java.net/jive/thread.jspa?threadID=315tstart=0 Suns stance is that its RFE and will not address it with wide deployment of Java 6 (aka Mustang) in 2007, and not on JRE 1.4.x updates, and will not do word smiting to clarify the application is registered. Another issue is deploying/update Java by corporate end users at organizations that have a LAN admin. Sample applets sites: http://www.sandrasf.com/sites One example of RiA is (click to run it) http://www.blogbridge.com/install/weekly/blogbridge.jnlp MacroMedia and MS Longhorn also have RiA kits, you can read this as intro to RiA: http://www.theserverside.com/articles/article.tss?l=RiA RiA will be major part of SoA Services. Server side Java will be limited w/o Client Side Java. You want to hear deployment answers from Sun people in charge? OK, tmrw. 11AM CA time (2PM? NY time) .V - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Sun wants Apache input on JDK futures
Although this enhancement to java.lang.Thread has not been shouted down, I have not heard any other comments, either. It proposes (1) a built-in orderly way to inform a thread to terminate itself and (2) a way to contol suspend/resume of a thread. All critique is welcome. Dan Lydick [Original Message] From: Noel J. Bergman [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 10/25/04 10:19:05 AM Subject: Sun wants Apache input on JDK futures Sun is the final stages of collecting requirements for the releases that will follow Tiger, which means the next 3 years. So here's your chance to tell Sun what you would like to see in J2SE versions 6 and 7. Once we gather all of the ideas, we can try to see if we can prioritize the list. ...snip... --- Noel My $0.02 worth, having just gotten started w/ JDK 1.5, but don't see these related features available: 1. The new java.lang.Thread.State class adds the capability to determine the current state of a given java.lang.Thread. However, the Thread class also needs to have a built-in equivalent to a mechanism that must currently be supplied by the user. In the bad old days, you used Thread.stop() to kill a thread. However, that would leave resource locks in place. Therefore, the common wisdom became for the user to declare a boolean that the thread could periodically poll and shut itself down in an ordered fashion after releasing resource locks and any other cleanup. I would like to see a mechanism built into java.lang.Thread that would to this on a language-wide basis. Perhaps a method with a parameter called 'Thread.setRequestedState(Thread.State reqState)' where a shutdown would call 'Thread.setRequestedState(Thread.State.TERMINATED)'. When that thread polls the requested state value (perhaps using a 'private ThreadState requestedState') using a method 'Thread.getRequestedState()', then it could initiate its shutdown sequence. 2. This is similar to the suggestion from Stefano Mazzocchi about suspending a thread and resuming. In this case, a thread could be suspended by doing a 'Thread.setRequestedState(Thread.State.WAITING)' followed by an un-suspend with 'Thread.setRequestedState(Thread.State.RUNNABLE)'. This would be functionally equivalent to Thread.notify()/notifyAll(), but would be thread-specific, not setting the state of some random thread or all threads. I say that is a syntactic improvement because Thread.notify() never tells the casual reader what thread will be made RUNNABLE again, even if there is only one possible thread that could get so marked. The full prototypes would be, for get req state: Thread.State getRequestedState() boolean setRequestedState(Thread.State newState) throws IllegalArgumentException When setRequestedState() succeeded, it would return 'true'. If it could not set that state, it would return 'false'. If anything but TERMINIATED, WAITING, or RUNNABLE were requested, it would throw IllegalArgumentException. Notice the distinct resemblance to '(Thread.State) Thread.getState()'. This returned the _current_ state, where the above discussion sets and gets the _requested_ state. Notice that, again refering to Mr. Mazzocchi's post, this approach would also work with JNI. All that is required is for the JVM to accept the requested states TERMINATED, WAITING, and RUNNABLE. Dan Lydick - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sun wants Apache input on JDK futures
Sun is the final stages of collecting requirements for the releases that will follow Tiger, which means the next 3 years. So here's your chance to tell Sun what you would like to see in J2SE versions 6 and 7. Once we gather all of the ideas, we can try to see if we can prioritize the list. I have created a wiki page to collect the information. Please DO NOT reply to this message. Instead, please use [EMAIL PROTECTED] (so that we have one open list) to discuss your ideas. PLEASE NOTE: In order for this information to have the most impact, Sun needs it by end of this week (October 29th). [The short time is not Sun's fault. They had asked earlier in the summer, but the ball got dropped. I just ran into the J2SE lead, who raised the issue again]. --- Noel - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Sun wants Apache input on JDK futures
Noel J. Bergman wrote: I have created a wiki page to collect the information. It would have helped if I remembered to paste the link ... http://wiki.apache.org/general/JavaFutures --- Noel - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Sun wants Apache input on JDK futures
Noel J. Bergman [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Sun is the final stages of collecting requirements for the releases that will follow Tiger, which means the next 3 years. So here's your chance to tell Sun what you would like to see in J2SE versions 6 and 7. Once we gather all of the ideas, we can try to see if we can prioritize the list. I have created a wiki page to collect the information. Please DO NOT reply to this message. Instead, please use [EMAIL PROTECTED] (so that we have one open list) to discuss your ideas. An open source implementation. Ciao, -- David N. Welton Personal: http://www.dedasys.com/davidw/ Apache Tcl: http://tcl.apache.org/ Free Software: http://www.dedasys.com/freesoftware/ Linux Incompatibility List: http://www.leenooks.com/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Sun wants Apache input on JDK futures
Noel J. Bergman wrote: I have created a wiki page to collect the information. Please DO NOT reply to this message. Instead, please use [EMAIL PROTECTED] (so that we have one open list) to discuss your ideas. So, are you saying that instead of replying to this message, each idea should be in a new message thread? - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Sun wants Apache input on JDK futures
matthew.hawthorne wrote: So, are you saying that instead of replying to this message, each idea should be in a new message thread? Sorry, now I understand. Never mind. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Sun wants Apache input on JDK futures
* Expect-like control structures for stream readers (timeout, regex, etc.) * XQuery support * RSS support for streams On 25 Oct 2004, at 10:17, Noel J. Bergman wrote: Sun is the final stages of collecting requirements for the releases that will follow Tiger, which means the next 3 years. So here's your chance to tell Sun what you would like to see in J2SE versions 6 and 7. Once we gather all of the ideas, we can try to see if we can prioritize the list. I have created a wiki page to collect the information. Please DO NOT reply to this message. Instead, please use [EMAIL PROTECTED] (so that we have one open list) to discuss your ideas. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Sun wants Apache input on JDK futures
[Original Message] From: Noel J. Bergman [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 10/25/04 10:19:05 AM Subject: Sun wants Apache input on JDK futures Sun is the final stages of collecting requirements for the releases that will follow Tiger, which means the next 3 years. So here's your chance to tell Sun what you would like to see in J2SE versions 6 and 7. Once we gather all of the ideas, we can try to see if we can prioritize the list. I have created a wiki page to collect the information. Please DO NOT reply to this message. Instead, please use [EMAIL PROTECTED] (so that we have one open list) to discuss your ideas. PLEASE NOTE: In order for this information to have the most impact, Sun needs it by end of this week (October 29th). [The short time is not Sun's fault. They had asked earlier in the summer, but the ball got dropped. I just ran into the J2SE lead, who raised the issue again]. --- Noel My $0.02 worth, having just gotten started w/ JDK 1.5, but don't see these related features available: 1. The new java.lang.Thread.State class adds the capability to determine the current state of a given java.lang.Thread. However, the Thread class also needs to have a built-in equivalent to a mechanism that must currently be supplied by the user. In the bad old days, you used Thread.stop() to kill a thread. However, that would leave resource locks in place. Therefore, the common wisdom became for the user to declare a boolean that the thread could periodically poll and shut itself down in an ordered fashion after releasing resource locks and any other cleanup. I would like to see a mechanism built into java.lang.Thread that would to this on a language-wide basis. Perhaps a method with a parameter called 'Thread.setRequestedState(Thread.State reqState)' where a shutdown would call 'Thread.setRequestedState(Thread.State.TERMINATED)'. When that thread polls the requested state value (perhaps using a 'private ThreadState requestedState') using a method 'Thread.getRequestedState()', then it could initiate its shutdown sequence. 2. This is similar to the suggestion from Stefano Mazzocchi about suspending a thread and resuming. In this case, a thread could be suspended by doing a 'Thread.setRequestedState(Thread.State.WAITING)' followed by an un-suspend with 'Thread.setRequestedState(Thread.State.RUNNABLE)'. This would be functionally equivalent to Thread.notify()/notifyAll(), but would be thread-specific, not setting the state of some random thread or all threads. I say that is a syntactic improvement because Thread.notify() never tells the casual reader what thread will be made RUNNABLE again, even if there is only one possible thread that could get so marked. The full prototypes would be, for get req state: Thread.State getRequestedState() boolean setRequestedState(Thread.State newState) throws IllegalArgumentException When setRequestedState() succeeded, it would return 'true'. If it could not set that state, it would return 'false'. If anything but TERMINIATED, WAITING, or RUNNABLE were requested, it would throw IllegalArgumentException. Notice the distinct resemblance to '(Thread.State) Thread.getState()'. This returned the _current_ state, where the above discussion sets and gets the _requested_ state. Notice that, again refering to Mr. Mazzocchi's post, this approach would also work with JNI. All that is required is for the JVM to accept the requested states TERMINATED, WAITING, and RUNNABLE. Dan Lydick - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Sun wants Apache input on JDK futures
[Original Message] From: Noel J. Bergman [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 10/25/04 10:19:05 AM Subject: Sun wants Apache input on JDK futures Sun is the final stages of collecting requirements for the releases that will follow Tiger, which means the next 3 years. So here's your chance to tell Sun what you would like to see in J2SE versions 6 and 7. Once we gather all of the ideas, we can try to see if we can prioritize the list. I have created a wiki page to collect the information. Please DO NOT reply to this message. Instead, please use [EMAIL PROTECTED] (so that we have one open list) to discuss your ideas. PLEASE NOTE: In order for this information to have the most impact, Sun needs it by end of this week (October 29th). [The short time is not Sun's fault. They had asked earlier in the summer, but the ball got dropped. I just ran into the J2SE lead, who raised the issue again]. --- Noel My $0.02 worth, having just gotten started w/ JDK 1.5, but don't see these related features available: 1. The new java.lang.Thread.State class adds the capability to determine the current state of a given java.lang.Thread. However, the Thread class also needs to have a built-in equivalent to a mechanism that must currently be supplied by the user. In the bad old days, you used Thread.stop() to kill a thread. However, that would leave resource locks in place. Therefore, the common wisdom became for the user to declare a boolean that the thread could periodically poll and shut itself down in an ordered fashion after releasing resource locks and any other cleanup. I would like to see a mechanism built into java.lang.Thread that would to this on a language-wide basis. Perhaps a method with a parameter called 'Thread.setRequestedState(Thread.State reqState)' where a shutdown would call 'Thread.setRequestedState(Thread.State.TERMINATED)'. When that thread polls the requested state value (perhaps using a 'private ThreadState requestedState') using a method 'Thread.getRequestedState()', then it could initiate its shutdown sequence. 2. This is similar to the suggestion from Stefano Mazzocchi about suspending a thread and resuming. In this case, a thread could be suspended by doing a 'Thread.setRequestedState(Thread.State.WAITING)' followed by an un-suspend with 'Thread.setRequestedState(Thread.State.RUNNABLE)'. This would be functionally equivalent to Thread.notify()/notifyAll(), but would be thread-specific, not setting the state of some random thread or all threads. I say that is a syntactic improvement because Thread.notify() never tells the casual reader what thread will be made RUNNABLE again, even if there is only one possible thread that could get so marked. The full prototypes would be, for get req state: Thread.State getRequestedState() boolean setRequestedState(Thread.State newState) throws IllegalArgumentException When setRequestedState() succeeded, it would return 'true'. If it could not set that state, it would return 'false'. If anything but TERMINIATED, WAITING, or RUNNABLE were requested, it would throw IllegalArgumentException. Notice the distinct resemblance to '(Thread.State) Thread.getState()'. This returned the _current_ state, where the above discussion sets and gets the _requested_ state. Notice that, again refering to Mr. Mazzocchi's post, this approach would also work with JNI. All that is required is for the JVM to accept the requested states TERMINATED, WAITING, and RUNNABLE. Dan Lydick - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Sun wants Apache input on JDK futures
matthew.hawthorne wrote: Noel J. Bergman wrote: I have created a wiki page to collect the information. Please DO NOT reply to this message. Instead, please use [EMAIL PROTECTED] (so that we have one open list) to discuss your ideas. So, are you saying that instead of replying to this message, each idea should be in a new message thread? Actually, I don't care so long as we don't cross-post, which was the reason for asking people to not reply. :-) --- Noel - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
OT: CNBC TV on Sun in 3 minutes (EOM)
OT: CNBC TV on Sun in 3 minutes (EOM) - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Apache vote on TCK re Sun
http://www.theserverside.com/home/thread.jsp?thread_id=20005 http://www.theserverside.com/home/thread.jsp?thread_id=19942 As per above I Quote: though IBM and Motorola still voted no. There also appear to be some disagreements within the JCP board about the licensing of these specs. Sun apparently plans to charge a Per unit royalty fee which will be dependent on volume. Doug Lea voted with comment. Apache vote with Sun with YES, without comment this says. I am wondering why? Other voted YES with comment. I personally wish they voted NO as they did in past on similar topic. I mean look at the implications, such as JBOSS is not J2EE (no big fan of EJB here), this makes it harder to have a Jakarta project that is JCP. Is anyone privy to ASF feeling on this topic related to open source in general and Java? I know there was some agreement btwn Sun and ASF. JCP *is* Sun domintated, but not ASF, AFAIK IBM seems more friendly to O.S, they said OK, but had a comment. .V ps: This is a possibility as well down the road: http://www.pbs.org/cringely/pulpit/pulpit20030213.html That is why my clients don't use Sun VM in favor of BEA J:Rockit, and IBM VM. Java would live past Sun, should the worst happen. http://www.penguincomputing.com/graphics/desktops/eclipse1280x1024.jpg - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Apache vote on TCK re Sun
http://www.theserverside.com/home/thread.jsp?thread_id=20005 http://www.theserverside.com/home/thread.jsp?thread_id=19942 As per above I Quote: though IBM and Motorola still voted no. There also appear to be some disagreements within the JCP board about the licensing of these specs. Sun apparently plans to charge a Per unit royalty fee which will be dependent on volume. Doug Lea voted with comment. Apache vote with Sun with YES, without comment this says. I am wondering why? Other voted YES with comment. I personally wish they voted NO as they did in past on similar topic. I mean look at the implications, such as JBOSS is not J2EE (no big fan of EJB here), this makes it harder to have a Jakarta project that is JCP. Is anyone privy to ASF feeling on this topic related to open source in general and Java? I know there was some agreement btwn Sun and ASF. JCP *is* Sun domintated, but not ASF, AFAIK IBM seems more friendly to O.S, they said OK, but had a comment. .V ps: This is a possibility as well down the road: http://www.pbs.org/cringely/pulpit/pulpit20030213.html That is why my clients don't use Sun VM in favor of BEA J:Rockit, and IBM VM. Java would live past Sun, should the worst happen. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Apache vote on TCK re Sun
I'd hope the ASF would vote against it in the final vote if it doesn't support open implementations with reasonable licenses. On 6/25/03 9:11 AM, Vic Cekvenich [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://www.theserverside.com/home/thread.jsp?thread_id=20005 http://www.theserverside.com/home/thread.jsp?thread_id=19942 As per above I Quote: though IBM and Motorola still voted no. There also appear to be some disagreements within the JCP board about the licensing of these specs. Sun apparently plans to charge a Per unit royalty fee which will be dependent on volume. Doug Lea voted with comment. Apache vote with Sun with YES, without comment this says. I am wondering why? Other voted YES with comment. I personally wish they voted NO as they did in past on similar topic. I mean look at the implications, such as JBOSS is not J2EE (no big fan of EJB here), this makes it harder to have a Jakarta project that is JCP. Is anyone privy to ASF feeling on this topic related to open source in general and Java? I know there was some agreement btwn Sun and ASF. JCP *is* Sun domintated, but not ASF, AFAIK IBM seems more friendly to O.S, they said OK, but had a comment. .V ps: This is a possibility as well down the road: http://www.pbs.org/cringely/pulpit/pulpit20030213.html That is why my clients don't use Sun VM in favor of BEA J:Rockit, and IBM VM. Java would live past Sun, should the worst happen. http://www.penguincomputing.com/graphics/desktops/eclipse1280x1024.jpg - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Andrew C. Oliver http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI http://jakarta.apache.org/poi For Java and Excel, Got POI? - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Sun copies Jakarta?
they are even using the tigris style (http://style.tigris.org) CSS on the project page (http://www.dev.java.net/servlets/ProjectList) Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote: http://java.net/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Sun copies Jakarta?
That's because it's powered by CollabNet/SourceCast, and CollabNet sponsors Tigris. A lot of SourceCast is (or is going to be) built on top of Tigris projects like Scarab and Subversion (IIUC). -chris Scott Tavares wrote: they are even using the tigris style (http://style.tigris.org) CSS on the project page (http://www.dev.java.net/servlets/ProjectList) Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote: http://java.net/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Sun copies Jakarta?
I'm at JavaOne following the fun around java.net and java.com. This morning I learned more about the new developer portal http://www.java.net. The site is edited by Tim O'Reilly and the chief web dog is James. Tim describes himself as the Colonel Sanders of the site, he jokes that it's really a group of O'Reilly Associates editors that will be editing the site. From what I've learned java.net is a private-labeled version of SourceForge with a bunch of new bells and whistles added (blogs, wikis, forums.) So it is open for anyone to host a public project, open-source projects included. I'm going to look into creating a mirror of the PushToTest site on Java.net - PushToTest is home to the TestMaker community, an open-source project for testing Web-enabled applications, especially Web Services. I'll post here on my experience with Java.net. -Frank On Wednesday, June 11, 2003, at 04:04 AM, Christopher Lenz wrote: That's because it's powered by CollabNet/SourceCast, and CollabNet sponsors Tigris. A lot of SourceCast is (or is going to be) built on top of Tigris projects like Scarab and Subversion (IIUC). -chris Scott Tavares wrote: they are even using the tigris style (http://style.tigris.org) CSS on the project page (http://www.dev.java.net/servlets/ProjectList) Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote: http://java.net/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Frank Cohen, Founder, PushToTest, http://www.PushToTest.com, phone: 408 374 7426 Come to PushToTest for free open-source test automation solutions that test and monitor Web-enabled applications, especially Web Services for scalability and reliability. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Sun copies Jakarta?
Frank Cohen wrote: I'm at JavaOne following the fun around java.net and java.com. Lucky! This morning I learned more about the new developer portal http://www.java.net. The site is edited by Tim O'Reilly and the chief web dog is James. Tim describes himself as the Colonel Sanders of the site, he jokes that it's really a group of O'Reilly Associates editors that will be editing the site. From what I've learned java.net is a private-labeled version of SourceForge with a bunch of new bells and whistles added (blogs, wikis, forums.) So it is open for anyone to host a public project, open-source projects included. Sounds like another place where projects can gestate, developing a community, before applying for admission to Jakarta... Erik - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Sun copies Jakarta?
Ya' i just noticed that... Christopher Lenz wrote: That's because it's powered by CollabNet/SourceCast, and CollabNet sponsors Tigris. A lot of SourceCast is (or is going to be) built on top of Tigris projects like Scarab and Subversion (IIUC). -chris Scott Tavares wrote: they are even using the tigris style (http://style.tigris.org) CSS on the project page (http://www.dev.java.net/servlets/ProjectList) Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote: http://java.net/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sun copies Jakarta?
http://java.net/ -- Nicola Ken Barozzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] - verba volant, scripta manent - (discussions get forgotten, just code remains) - - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Sun copies Jakarta?
On Tue, 10 Jun 2003 09:48:57 +0200 Nicola Ken Barozzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://java.net/ But failed in JavaScript ;-) - Tetsuya Kitahata -- Terra-International, Inc. E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] : [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.terra-intl.com/ (Apache Jakarta Translation, Japanese) http://jakarta.terra-intl.com/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Sun copies Jakarta?
On 10/06/2003 9:48 Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote: or MS (http://www.gotdotnet.com/community/workspaces/directory.aspx)? Or Sourceforge? Savannah? Diversity is what keeps Darwin's sledgehammer away, IMHO. /Steven -- Steven Noelshttp://outerthought.org/ Outerthought - Open Source, Java XML Competence Support Center Read my weblog athttp://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/ stevenn at outerthought.orgstevenn at apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Sun copies Jakarta?
Steven Noels escribió: On 10/06/2003 9:48 Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote: or MS (http://www.gotdotnet.com/community/workspaces/directory.aspx)? Or Sourceforge? Savannah? Diversity is what keeps Darwin's sledgehammer away, IMHO. Darwin will take care of most such initiatives. But it looks like new marketing trends are being set up. Now, how does this affect our ecosystem? /Steven -- Santiago Gala High Sierra Technology, S.L. (http://hisitech.com) http://memojo.com?page=SantiagoGalaBlog - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Sun copies Jakarta?
On 10/06/2003 13:38 Santiago Gala wrote: Now, how does this affect our ecosystem? *shrug* I for one have just filed our own open source xReporter project to be linked from java.net. I expect the requisite of having a _diverse_ community of developers doesn't exist over there, so it might be a nice, visible place to grow a community until it is ready for eventual contribution to the ASF. I'm pretty sure people will still think of apache.org as being the ultimate destination for a good OSS project. If java.net helps them to get there, why not? Some corporate codebase dumpings might also be expected over there, which is good since they won't come knock on our doors then. /Steven -- Steven Noelshttp://outerthought.org/ Outerthought - Open Source, Java XML Competence Support Center Read my weblog athttp://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/ stevenn at outerthought.orgstevenn at apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Sun copies Jakarta?
Santiago Gala wrote: Steven Noels escribió: On 10/06/2003 9:48 Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote: or MS (http://www.gotdotnet.com/community/workspaces/directory.aspx)? Or Sourceforge? Savannah? Diversity is what keeps Darwin's sledgehammer away, IMHO. Darwin will take care of most such initiatives. But it looks like new marketing trends are being set up. Now, how does this affect our ecosystem? As little or as much as we want to let it. Examples: 1) If an ASF Jakarta subproject were to come to depend on an java.net project, would I create a project definition for the java.net project in Gump? Absolutely. 2) If the majority of committers to an ASF Jakarta subproject were to want to move their codebase to java.net, would I help them? Absolutely. Is the open source Java world big enough for both a Jakarta and a java.net? Absolutely. - Sam Ruby - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Sun copies Jakarta?
I agree. It's just like depending on a open source project on sourceforge (Gump builds ~60 projects from SF - http://cvs.apache.org/builds/gump/latest/modxref.html) -- dims --- Sam Ruby [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Santiago Gala wrote: Steven Noels escribió: On 10/06/2003 9:48 Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote: or MS (http://www.gotdotnet.com/community/workspaces/directory.aspx)? Or Sourceforge? Savannah? Diversity is what keeps Darwin's sledgehammer away, IMHO. Darwin will take care of most such initiatives. But it looks like new marketing trends are being set up. Now, how does this affect our ecosystem? As little or as much as we want to let it. Examples: 1) If an ASF Jakarta subproject were to come to depend on an java.net project, would I create a project definition for the java.net project in Gump? Absolutely. 2) If the majority of committers to an ASF Jakarta subproject were to want to move their codebase to java.net, would I help them? Absolutely. Is the open source Java world big enough for both a Jakarta and a java.net? Absolutely. - Sam Ruby - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] = Davanum Srinivas - http://webservices.apache.org/~dims/ __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Sun
Vic Cekvenich [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: FYI: The rumor is from developers I know of a commercial J2EE vendor that no one passes all the tests. But since they pay, that makes you certified. I worked for Sun Micro for almost two years, in the J2EE team, and unless something changed in the policy over there (which I don't think, as I know each single one in that team), this is absolutely untrue. Pier - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Sun
OK, when I worked for a J2EE company that got certified, developer group I would have lunch with, they said J2EE had 2 or 3 thousand tests or some silly #, and that hey had problems, and that test even were not clear to the point they could not run it. They told me that Sun said that the other vendors did not even try, becuase they self certified. Peace, .V Pier Fumagalli wrote: Vic Cekvenich [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: FYI: The rumor is from developers I know of a commercial J2EE vendor that no one passes all the tests. But since they pay, that makes you certified. I worked for Sun Micro for almost two years, in the J2EE team, and unless something changed in the policy over there (which I don't think, as I know each single one in that team), this is absolutely untrue. Pier - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Sun
On 28/05/2003 14:49 Erik Price wrote: I'm genuinely curious where to draw the line between the project and the business in this context. ... and I find your feelings to be strikingly similar to mine. After reading the poor White whitepaper, I find the JBoss development community to be quite feodal by design. If there's one guy to blame for that, it must be Marc, I reckon. But Andy tells me I'm wrong. Oh well. /Steven -- Steven Noelshttp://outerthought.org/ Outerthought - Open Source, Java XML Competence Support Center Read my weblog athttp://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/ stevenn at outerthought.orgstevenn at apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Sun
Andrew C. Oliver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Don't you think JBoss' huge success has something to do with Sun's animosity? Every developer I know who has a say on the platform uses JBoss: better product, better documentation, better support, lower price. Don't read me wrong: I'm on the JBoss-side on this, in that *the project* should be able to present itself on a JUG event. When comparing *JBossGroup* with the ASF however (if that would be possible at all), I partially understand Pier's reservations. This doesn't mean SunBE is right on this, however. The fact a (pardon me) marketing lowlife believes he can silently get away with that is once again a great occasion to help such people see the cluetrain is arriving. I *would* agree if the other vendors weren't being permitted. I fail to see what compliance should have to do with it. Its a Javapolis not a J2EEpolis. All other vendors are permitted, and all other vendors had to pay for their compliancy... Why is JBoss Group LLC different? Noone AFAIK ever told them no you can't, I believe they were just told please pay the fee exactly like every other vendor does. Pier - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Sun
On 5/28/03 10:03 AM, Pier Fumagalli [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Andrew C. Oliver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Don't you think JBoss' huge success has something to do with Sun's animosity? Every developer I know who has a say on the platform uses JBoss: better product, better documentation, better support, lower price. Don't read me wrong: I'm on the JBoss-side on this, in that *the project* should be able to present itself on a JUG event. When comparing *JBossGroup* with the ASF however (if that would be possible at all), I partially understand Pier's reservations. This doesn't mean SunBE is right on this, however. The fact a (pardon me) marketing lowlife believes he can silently get away with that is once again a great occasion to help such people see the cluetrain is arriving. I *would* agree if the other vendors weren't being permitted. I fail to see what compliance should have to do with it. Its a Javapolis not a J2EEpolis. All other vendors are permitted, and all other vendors had to pay for their compliancy... Why is JBoss Group LLC different? Noone AFAIK ever told them no you can't, I believe they were just told please pay the fee exactly like every other vendor does. Because its a JUG event! There are NON-J2EE projects/vendors present. J2EE certification is entirely besides the point! Its a vendor manipulating an event and compromising the independence and integrity of a non-profit developer organization. Actually, they were originally told no. Then they were told yes, but fork up the cash. Since the money arrangements are under NDA we will never know if IBM paid $5 and Jboss was told to cough up $100, but that's Sun. Its funny they operate so much out of the Sun. ;-) Shrug, but I think we're running off topic. The point was Sun was tempering good with bad and that we should all be wary that they are not feeling like respecting sponsored organizations' independence. It was intended as something like one of Steven's community weather reports (which I wish he did more often). -Andy Pier - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Andrew C. Oliver http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI http://jakarta.apache.org/poi For Java and Excel, Got POI? - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Sun
On 28/05/2003 16:09 Andrew C. Oliver wrote: It was intended as something like one of Steven's community weather reports (which I wish he did more often). The more I go and check on the weather, the more I actually experience it and want to be part of it. So rather than being a neutral weather watcher, I'm becoming part of the wind itself. :-D /Steven -- Steven Noelshttp://outerthought.org/ Outerthought - Open Source, Java XML Competence Support Center Read my weblog athttp://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/ stevenn at outerthought.orgstevenn at apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Sun
On Thu, 29 May 2003 12:26 am, Steven Noels wrote: watcher, I'm becoming part of the wind itself. :-D Yeah, prunes will do that. Conor - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Sun
On 28/05/2003 16:38 Conor MacNeill wrote: Yeah, prunes will do that. LOL! /Steven -- Steven Noelshttp://outerthought.org/ Outerthought - Open Source, Java XML Competence Support Center Read my weblog athttp://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/ stevenn at outerthought.orgstevenn at apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Sun
FYI: The rumor is from developers I know of a commercial J2EE vendor that no one passes all the tests. But since they pay, that makes you certified. Good?: I like free software, pay for services model. It's better than pay us for software, pay us to fix it model. Imagine all the budgeting and legal approvals you miss. One does not imagine Free consulting, eh? Bad!: I do not think highly of EJB or _any_ vendor that advocates EJBs. ANSI SQL works for me. .V Pier Fumagalli wrote: Andrew C. Oliver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Don't you think JBoss' huge success has something to do with Sun's animosity? Every developer I know who has a say on the platform uses JBoss: better product, better documentation, better support, lower price. Don't read me wrong: I'm on the JBoss-side on this, in that *the project* should be able to present itself on a JUG event. When comparing *JBossGroup* with the ASF however (if that would be possible at all), I partially understand Pier's reservations. This doesn't mean SunBE is right on this, however. The fact a (pardon me) marketing lowlife believes he can silently get away with that is once again a great occasion to help such people see the cluetrain is arriving. I *would* agree if the other vendors weren't being permitted. I fail to see what compliance should have to do with it. Its a Javapolis not a J2EEpolis. All other vendors are permitted, and all other vendors had to pay for their compliancy... Why is JBoss Group LLC different? Noone AFAIK ever told them no you can't, I believe they were just told please pay the fee exactly like every other vendor does. Pier - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Sun
On 28/05/2003 9:47 Pier Fumagalli wrote: Going back and looking at the past 5 years, actually, I think that in this case, the guy from Sun actually has a point (Rudy? Who the hell is he?). Oddly enough in the J2EE/JBoss saga, I don't see Sun as being the bad guys (but ok, some of us and Mark go back A LONG time)... I concur that. The JBossGroup is playing a very tricky game, and some of what they do will reflect bad upon the entire Open Source community. Rest assured that Werner knows about these tricks since he was involved with JBoss in Europe from the beginning. I'm not a Fleury fan, neither, and his latest acts (the whitepapers, trying to lure committers into a commercial liaison with JBG) have confirmed my feelings. Still, looking at JBoss (the project), I pretty much fail to see what arguments of Rudy (the SunBE local marketing guy) would still be valid if anyone else would come and present JBoss (the project). Sun should be happy that people create cheap implementations of their APIs. If their own implementations would be any better, they might also be making money of them. ;) Cheers, /Steven -- Steven Noelshttp://outerthought.org/ Outerthought - Open Source, Java XML Competence Support Center Read my weblog athttp://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/ stevenn at outerthought.orgstevenn at apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Sun
At 08:47 AM 5/28/2003 +0100, you wrote: On 28/5/03 0:26 Andrew C. Oliver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Good: http://www.theserverside.com/home/thread.jsp?thread_id=19500 Hm... Evil: http://www.shiftat.com/blog/page/werner/20030527#sun_reaffirms_no_jboss_at Indeed... Mark Fleury _is_ evil. He has a character but evil? A bit harsh no? Pier -- Ceki For log4j documentation consider The complete log4j manual ISBN: 2970036908 http://www.qos.ch/shop/products/clm_t.jsp - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Sun
At 10:08 AM 5/28/2003 +0200, you wrote: On 28/05/2003 9:47 Pier Fumagalli wrote: Going back and looking at the past 5 years, actually, I think that in this case, the guy from Sun actually has a point (Rudy? Who the hell is he?). Oddly enough in the J2EE/JBoss saga, I don't see Sun as being the bad guys (but ok, some of us and Mark go back A LONG time)... I concur that. The JBossGroup is playing a very tricky game, and some of what they do will reflect bad upon the entire Open Source community. Rest assured that Werner knows about these tricks since he was involved with JBoss in Europe from the beginning. I'm not a Fleury fan, neither, and his latest acts (the whitepapers, trying to lure committers into a commercial liaison with JBG) have confirmed my feelings. Don't you think JBoss' huge success has something to do with Sun's animosity? Every developer I know who has a say on the platform uses JBoss: better product, better documentation, better support, lower price. Do you think Sun Microsystems cares one bit about the well being of Open Source? The fact that Sun is actively trying to scuttle a successful OS project, JBoss in this case, is very disturbing. /Steven -- Ceki For log4j documentation consider The complete log4j manual ISBN: 2970036908 http://www.qos.ch/shop/products/clm_t.jsp - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Sun
On 28/5/03 9:08 Steven Noels [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sun should be happy that people create cheap implementations of their APIs. If their own implementations would be any better, they might also be making money of them. ;) Nothing against that, absolutely, but voices are saying that JBoss Group LLC is unwilling to pay for the compliancy tests and certification, which everyone else in the market pays... Voices also say that Sun offered them quite a substantial discount, but they didn't accept. I fail to see what is the difference between JBoss Group LLC and any other private/public corporation developing a J2EE solution... Pier - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Sun
On 28/05/2003 10:52 Ceki Gülcü wrote: I concur that. The JBossGroup is playing a very tricky game, and some of what they do will reflect bad upon the entire Open Source community. Rest assured that Werner knows about these tricks since he was involved with JBoss in Europe from the beginning. I'm not a Fleury fan, neither, and his latest acts (the whitepapers, trying to lure committers into a commercial liaison with JBG) have confirmed my feelings. Don't you think JBoss' huge success has something to do with Sun's animosity? Every developer I know who has a say on the platform uses JBoss: better product, better documentation, better support, lower price. Don't read me wrong: I'm on the JBoss-side on this, in that *the project* should be able to present itself on a JUG event. When comparing *JBossGroup* with the ASF however (if that would be possible at all), I partially understand Pier's reservations. This doesn't mean SunBE is right on this, however. The fact a (pardon me) marketing lowlife believes he can silently get away with that is once again a great occasion to help such people see the cluetrain is arriving. Do you think Sun Microsystems cares one bit about the well being of Open Source? The fact that Sun is actively trying to scuttle a successful OS project, JBoss in this case, is very disturbing. It is. And they will fail at it. Still, when daydreaming about JBoss, I happen to compare that community with ours. And I believe the testosteroid behaviour of its speaking puppet might be detrimental in the end. There's no black white and deliberation should be made. /Steven -- Steven Noelshttp://outerthought.org/ Outerthought - Open Source, Java XML Competence Support Center Read my weblog athttp://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/ stevenn at outerthought.orgstevenn at apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Sun
On 28/05/2003 10:52 Pier Fumagalli wrote: I fail to see what is the difference between JBoss Group LLC and any other private/public corporation developing a J2EE solution... None. Hence my problem with JBoss when comparing with the ASF situation (which isn't flawless neither, however). I still do hope JBoss - the project- can attract non-JBG LLC-funded committers. Last week at NLUUG, there was a guy with no real liaison with JBoss (http://www.josvisser.nl/), who gave a perfectly enjoyable talk on JBoss - the project. In this particular case, I feel to see how Sun would not want JBoss - the project - being presented at a (large) Java users conference. /Steven -- Steven Noelshttp://outerthought.org/ Outerthought - Open Source, Java XML Competence Support Center Read my weblog athttp://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/ stevenn at outerthought.orgstevenn at apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Sun
Don't you think JBoss' huge success has something to do with Sun's animosity? Every developer I know who has a say on the platform uses JBoss: better product, better documentation, better support, lower price. Don't read me wrong: I'm on the JBoss-side on this, in that *the project* should be able to present itself on a JUG event. When comparing *JBossGroup* with the ASF however (if that would be possible at all), I partially understand Pier's reservations. This doesn't mean SunBE is right on this, however. The fact a (pardon me) marketing lowlife believes he can silently get away with that is once again a great occasion to help such people see the cluetrain is arriving. I *would* agree if the other vendors weren't being permitted. I fail to see what compliance should have to do with it. Its a Javapolis not a J2EEpolis. Do you think Sun Microsystems cares one bit about the well being of Open Source? The fact that Sun is actively trying to scuttle a successful OS project, JBoss in this case, is very disturbing. This is the point. It is. And they will fail at it. Agreed. Still, when daydreaming about JBoss, I happen to compare that community with ours. And I believe the testosteroid behaviour of its speaking puppet might be detrimental in the end. Ha! You mean that they don¹t have enough testosterone to compete! ;-) I like Marc. He reminds me a little of someone here, but I don't think they get along so I won't say who ;-) -Andy There's no black white and deliberation should be made. /Steven -- Andrew C. Oliver http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI http://jakarta.apache.org/poi For Java and Excel, Got POI? - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Sun
On 5/28/03 5:19 AM, Steven Noels [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 28/05/2003 10:52 Pier Fumagalli wrote: I fail to see what is the difference between JBoss Group LLC and any other private/public corporation developing a J2EE solution... None. Hence my problem with JBoss when comparing with the ASF situation (which isn't flawless neither, however). I still do hope JBoss - the project- can attract non-JBG LLC-funded committers. Last week at NLUUG, there was a guy with no real liaison with JBoss (http://www.josvisser.nl/), who gave a perfectly enjoyable talk on JBoss - the project. In this particular case, I feel to see how Sun would not want JBoss - the project - being presented at a (large) Java users conference. That¹s not really the point. A JUG wanted, Sun used a mallet. It shouldn't be Sun's decision. -Andy /Steven -- Andrew C. Oliver http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI http://jakarta.apache.org/poi For Java and Excel, Got POI? - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Sun
--- Pier Fumagalli [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I fail to see what is the difference between JBoss Group LLC and any other private/public corporation developing a J2EE solution... Neither do i, provided that corporation gives you their j2ee server for free, with no strings attached; you don't have to buy their database, their hardware, their os, their services, etc... I can download and use JBoss for free. = http://nathaniel-auvil.blog-city.com/ __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Sun
Steven Noels wrote: Don't read me wrong: I'm on the JBoss-side on this, in that *the project* should be able to present itself on a JUG event. This is an interesting discussion. The New England JUG recently hosted Bill Burke, Chief Architect of JBoss Group LLC (http://www.nejug.org/2003/apr03.jsp) to talk about JBoss. With the exception of some (deservedly) proud comments evangelizing the JBoss/JMX design, Burke's talk was purely technical. The only time that the notion of JBoss Group LLC came into the picture was when someone asked if the slides would be made available online, and Burke explained that they would not, as they were directly taken from JBoss Group's instructional materials (which they sell). I'm genuinely curious where to draw the line between the project and the business in this context. Erik PS: Although I hadn't considered this until I read the posted link, I found it strange that the talk was held at an alternate location (normally NEJUG meetings are held at the nearby Burlington Sun campus). Now I can take a guess as to why. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sun
Good: http://www.theserverside.com/home/thread.jsp?thread_id=19500 Evil: http://www.shiftat.com/blog/page/werner/20030527#sun_reaffirms_no_jboss_at Glad these guys don't sponsor my JUG. I hope Apache can continue to assert a high level of independence despite Sun's shift to a more Machiavellian perspective of it's sponsorship. Nice work to everyone involved in the JCP 2.6 reforms. I'm anxious to see the outcome. Perhaps the Party will reform ;-) -Andy -- Andrew C. Oliver http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI http://jakarta.apache.org/poi For Java and Excel, Got POI? - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Sun and the JCP 2.5
On Wed, 2 Apr 2003, Andrew C. Oliver wrote: Sam, I've gotten rather disappointed with your tactics of late. Folks - can we please try not to 'read into' each others words too much. I'd like to avoid a situations such as say someone posts some NDA'd spec Andrew - it is naught impossible to effectively sue someone for the use information which was made public, say on a list like [EMAIL PROTECTED] And even if one did - you'd have to show it was directly derived. On the same token; if you somehow accidentally receive something which has the banner 'Commercial in confidence' or some other indiciation it may be considered a trade secret by its owner or you could resonably know it was under an NDA - than you need to be just as careful as if you'd signed an NDA. The knife cuts in both directions. To 'label' things - we've instituted the jcp@ list; so that thigns are easy to separate. I think an open JCP list where no NDA material is permitted would be entirely appropriate. Would [EMAIL PROTECTED] not be exactly that sort of forum ? I.e. exactly the community where java related things which affect most, if not all, java projects are normally discussed. If you object to the ASF effectively having certain lists which are not as 'open' and 'public' as you'd like - that is an entirely other matter. And one you are encouraged to dicuss with community@ and [EMAIL PROTECTED] But personally I think that given that we are not a public institution - our interaction with others, such as SUN, in the real world, will always mean that in order to build trust and communicate effective, that certain things will be restricted to members@ or someother well identified body. Dw - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Sun and the JCP 2.5
On 3/04/2003 1:24 Roy T. Fielding wrote: Does anyone know why JBoss isn't being granted the scholarship? I read the Happiness is here today JCP 2.5 announcement (http://java.sun.com/features/2002/10/new_jcp.html) again and it says qualified achedemic, non-profit and opensource members. I am not sure about the announcement text, but I know that the agreement was for nonprofit or academic organizations, or for individuals working on behalf of a nonprofit. JBOSS is none of the above. http://jcp.org/aboutJava/communityprocess/announce/LetterofIntent.html Thanks for clarifying this. /Steven -- Steven Noelshttp://outerthought.org/ Outerthought - Open Source, Java XML Competence Support Center Read my weblog athttp://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/ stevenn at outerthought.orgstevenn at apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sun and the JCP 2.5
Please read this: http://openenterprisetrends.com/cgi-bin/page_display.cgi?193 Does anyone know why JBoss isn't being granted the scholarship? I read the Happiness is here today JCP 2.5 announcement (http://java.sun.com/features/2002/10/new_jcp.html) again and it says qualified achedemic, non-profit and opensource members. While I realize that this isn't an Apache opensource project, it was my understanding that Apache had invested a great deal of effort in getting Sun to open up the JCP and enact these reforms. I would hate to thing and be very disappointed if they were not being applied fairly. Who is on the current scholarship board? Any apache folks? Are you able to comment? Thanks, -Andy - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Sun and the JCP 2.5
Andrew C. Oliver wrote: Who is on the current scholarship board? Any apache folks? Are you able to comment? Yes, Apache is on the scholarship board. If you want to discuss this further, you might consider joining the [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list. - Sam Ruby - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Sun and the JCP 2.5
Yes, Apache is on the scholarship board. If you want to discuss this further, you might consider joining the [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list. The problem is that I might inadvertantly receive information covered by apache's non-disclosure agreements with Sun. This could limit my economic viability in the future should I wish to implement a technology which competes with Sun. Would it be possible to have a list set up for those who are either not members or whom do not wish to be bound by such agreements to discuss the Apache side of the JCP? -Andy - Sam Ruby - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Sun and the JCP 2.5
Does anyone know why JBoss isn't being granted the scholarship? I read the Happiness is here today JCP 2.5 announcement (http://java.sun.com/features/2002/10/new_jcp.html) again and it says qualified achedemic, non-profit and opensource members. I am not sure about the announcement text, but I know that the agreement was for nonprofit or academic organizations, or for individuals working on behalf of a nonprofit. JBOSS is none of the above. http://jcp.org/aboutJava/communityprocess/announce/LetterofIntent.html While I realize that this isn't an Apache opensource project, it was my understanding that Apache had invested a great deal of effort in getting Sun to open up the JCP and enact these reforms. I would hate to thing and be very disappointed if they were not being applied fairly. We did. Under the old rules, JBOSS would not be allowed to implement a compatible implementation as open source. Under the new rules, they only need to pass the TCK, and as a commercial organization it is up to them to pay for it. Roy - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Sun and the JCP 2.5
On Wednesday, April 2, 2003, at 05:38 PM, Andrew C. Oliver wrote: Yes, Apache is on the scholarship board. If you want to discuss this further, you might consider joining the [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list. The problem is that I might inadvertantly receive information covered by apache's non-disclosure agreements with Sun. This could limit my economic viability in the future should I wish to implement a technology which competes with Sun. Would it be possible to have a list set up for those who are either not members or whom do not wish to be bound by such agreements to discuss the Apache side of the JCP? I've suggested this time and again, making a jcp-discussion list where no NDA-covered information would be submitted, but there never is any interest. If you are interested now - Sam, could you do the honors? geir -Andy - Sam Ruby - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Geir Magnusson Jr 203-956-2604(w) Adeptra, Inc. 203-434-2093(m) [EMAIL PROTECTED] 203-247-1713(m) - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Sun and the JCP 2.5
Thanks. That clears it up. -Andy Roy T. Fielding wrote: Does anyone know why JBoss isn't being granted the scholarship? I read the Happiness is here today JCP 2.5 announcement (http://java.sun.com/features/2002/10/new_jcp.html) again and it says qualified achedemic, non-profit and opensource members. I am not sure about the announcement text, but I know that the agreement was for nonprofit or academic organizations, or for individuals working on behalf of a nonprofit. JBOSS is none of the above. http://jcp.org/aboutJava/communityprocess/announce/LetterofIntent.html While I realize that this isn't an Apache opensource project, it was my understanding that Apache had invested a great deal of effort in getting Sun to open up the JCP and enact these reforms. I would hate to thing and be very disappointed if they were not being applied fairly. We did. Under the old rules, JBOSS would not be allowed to implement a compatible implementation as open source. Under the new rules, they only need to pass the TCK, and as a commercial organization it is up to them to pay for it. Roy - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Sun and the JCP 2.5
I've suggested this time and again, making a jcp-discussion list where no NDA-covered information would be submitted, but there never is any interest. Okay. If you are interested now - Sam, could you do the honors? +1 geir -Andy - Sam Ruby - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Sun and the JCP 2.5
Andrew C. Oliver wrote: Yes, Apache is on the scholarship board. If you want to discuss this further, you might consider joining the [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list. The problem is that I might inadvertantly receive information covered by apache's non-disclosure agreements with Sun. This could limit my economic viability in the future should I wish to implement a technology which competes with Sun. Would it be possible to have a list set up for those who are either not members or whom do not wish to be bound by such agreements to discuss the Apache side of the JCP? We've been through this before. The list is has no Sun employees on it. It has only Apache members. They make decisions on behalf of the ASF. You can choose to no longer be a member of the ASF. You can choose not to participate. At the moment, you have chosen the former and not the latter. -Andy - Sam Ruby - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Sun and the JCP 2.5
We've been through this before. The list is has no Sun employees on it. It has only Apache members. They make decisions on behalf of the ASF. You can choose to no longer be a member of the ASF. You can choose not to participate. At the moment, you have chosen the former and not the latter. Sam, I've gotten rather disappointed with your tactics of late. I choose to take part in the ASF and its decision making processes. I choose not to have information that would limit my financial viability via making me party to a Non Disclosure Agreement. I'd like to avoid a situations such as say someone posts some NDA'd spec for a VM as part of some JSR you're working on and I then go and start working on Mono and Sun takes my house for disclosing.. (possibly without me even reading it) I wanted to raise a legitimate question (thanks to Roy for a USEFUL answer) and from you I keep hearing it puts the lotion in the bucket or it gets the hose... I think an open JCP list where no NDA material is permitted would be entirely appropriate. -Andy -Andy - Sam Ruby - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Sun and the JCP 2.5
Andrew C. Oliver wrote: We've been through this before. The list is has no Sun employees on it. It has only Apache members. They make decisions on behalf of the ASF. You can choose to no longer be a member of the ASF. You can choose not to participate. At the moment, you have chosen the former and not the latter. Sigh. I have not signed any NDA. I have only signed the ASF membership application. We can take a list which gets virtually zero traffic and split it in two. We did that once before, and created a list which allows Sun to participate. It gets even less traffic. How you can prove a negative (i.e., that you had access to such information but never actually took advantage of it), is beyond me. What should we call this proposed list? - Sam Ruby - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Sun and the JCP 2.5
On Wednesday, April 2, 2003, at 07:06 PM, Sam Ruby wrote: Andrew C. Oliver wrote: We've been through this before. The list is has no Sun employees on it. It has only Apache members. They make decisions on behalf of the ASF. You can choose to no longer be a member of the ASF. You can choose not to participate. At the moment, you have chosen the former and not the latter. Sigh. I have not signed any NDA. I have only signed the ASF membership application. We can take a list which gets virtually zero traffic and split it in two. We did that once before, and created a list which allows Sun to participate. It gets even less traffic. How you can prove a negative (i.e., that you had access to such information but never actually took advantage of it), is beyond me. What should we call this proposed list? jcp-open? jabberwocky? soundofsilence? -- Geir Magnusson Jr 203-956-2604(w) Adeptra, Inc. 203-434-2093(m) [EMAIL PROTECTED] 203-247-1713(m) - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Sun and the JCP 2.5
Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote: What should we call this proposed list? jcp-open? Done. - Sam Ruby - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Sun and the JCP 2.5
Sam, I've gotten rather disappointed with your tactics of late. I choose to take part in the ASF and its decision making processes. I choose not to have information that would limit my financial viability via making me party to a Non Disclosure Agreement. I'd like to avoid a situations such as say someone posts some NDA'd spec for a VM as part of some JSR you're working on and I then go and start working on Mono and Sun takes my house for disclosing.. (possibly without me even reading it) That isn't possible. Even if you were to read secret information, you cannot be sued for making use of public information once it has become public, nor can you be sued for making use of your secret knowledge to create something that is not derived from the presentation of that information from Sun, presuming that you can demonstrate it wasn't derived from the secret (which would be easy for Mono). What you can be sued for is taking information that is distributed under NDA and making it public, even if you are not a party in the NDA. As long as you know that Sun considers it to be a trade secret and has not published it themselves, you cannot publish that information regardless of how it was obtained. Signing, or not signing, the NDA is irrelevant. Even if you never see the secret information, and have no ties to anyone who has access to it, you can be sued. The company simply needs a reason to believe that someone under NDA (including its own employees) might have given you the information. However, they can only sue you for damages caused to them by you making that information public prior to others making it public. They cannot sue you for what you know, and they cannot claim damages if you keep it secret. The purpose of the NDA is to establish a contract between those who give us the information to those who receive it, such that we all agree that it is secret and will treat it as such until the originator makes the information public. I think an open JCP list where no NDA material is permitted would be entirely appropriate. [EMAIL PROTECTED] is more than sufficient for that purpose. There is nothing about the JCP that is public other than what you see on jcp.org and what the spec leads offer for public review. In any case, the notion that you would somehow lose economic viability from being on the JCP list is just plain backwards. A consultant with inside information is far more valuable than one on the outside. I'll accept a claim that you simply don't what to partake in a closed process, which is indeed why we created the jcp list (so members who refuse to participate in the closed process can choose to do so). However, you should not go asking those who do participate about the facts that are readily available to those on the list. You need to read the public output instead. Roy - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Sun and the JCP 2.5
What should we call this proposed list? jcp-public - Sam Ruby - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Sun Is Losing Its Way
What if Java was GNU http://www.kaffe.org ? Jeff Schnitzer wrote: Do you just not grasp that Sun's rigid control of Java is the antithesis of Open Source, and _especially_ the Apache philosophy? Try forking the Java codebase sometime. See how fast it takes Sun's lawyers to find you. Want to port Java to a new platform? Get special permission from Sun, and don't plan on having public CVS (see the FreeBSD experience). There's nothing open about that. Jeff -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Sun Is Losing Its Way
To me that is the closed version of XFORMS. I likve novell.com/xforms that runs on Tomcat etc., and does not lock in a Windows client. .V Dominique Devienne wrote: Did you guys see in the news that Office 11 will have standard compliant XML schemas for Word and Excel files??? --DD -Original Message- From: Andrew C. Oliver [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, December 10, 2002 1:57 PM To: Jakarta General List Subject: Re: Sun Is Losing Its Way [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: clip I don't really want or need to see Microsoft's code. What I would like to see is their file formats, protocols and APIs being documented so that other developers, open-source or otherwise, can interoperate and compete with their products clip I agree!! We're working on it, we're working on it... ( 1. http://jakarta.apache.org/poi/poifs/fileformat.html 2. http://jakarta.apache.org/poi/hssf/chart.html 3. http://sc.openoffice.org/excelfileformat.pdf ) Maybe you should lend us a hand. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Sun Is Losing Its Way
Because its more stable and runs faster under Linux than Star/OpenOffice? -Andy Scott Sanders wrote: But EVERYONE knows Word is only used on emails and simple love letters (with viri) under 4 pages. Why would you use anything else? Scott PS I do use Windows at work, and I even once had Excel open with 4 (yes four) workbooks at one time... -Original Message- From: Andrew C. Oliver [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2002 6:00 PM To: Jakarta General List Subject: Re: Sun Is Losing Its Way Yeah... Maybe they can make it not crash for reasonable sized files... That would be compliant.. -Andy Scott Sanders wrote: Just like the news had Office 10, 9, 8, and 7 will all these XML compliance features? Office 11 will be closer than anything before, but I might be inclined to drop java if what they see is the same as what they do :) Scott -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Sun Is Losing Its Way
On Fri, 2002-12-13 at 09:18, Andrew C. Oliver wrote: Because its more stable and runs faster under Linux than Star/OpenOffice? Sadly, MS Word under CrossOver Office is more stable on my Linux workstation at work than OpenOffice. Hopefully this will change. -Brian -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Sun Is Losing Its Way
I think this thread has lost its way :-) Conor you are right! Because its more stable and runs faster under Linux than Star/OpenOffice? Sadly, MS Word under CrossOver Office is more stable on my Linux workstation at work than OpenOffice. Hopefully this will change. -Brian so ppl, why don't you report bugs so they can make it stable?!!! open source community is our own softwar and we need to enhance it rather than leaving it for something else. if one day you saw your kid in dangur you will help him, am i right?? or you will leave him and buy another kid from the stors?!! support Sun, Open Source, and all good manufacturar in our nice world :) -mohammad _ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Sun Is Losing Its Way
Sadly, MS Word under CrossOver Office is more stable on my Linux workstation at work than OpenOffice. Hopefully this will change. -Brian so ppl, why don't you report bugs so they can make it stable?!!! Before you lecture, go look at the OpenOffice sources. It is amazing that the thing even works. open source community is our own softwar and we need to enhance it rather than leaving it for something else. At some point you'll reach a point where your to-do list is so long that its just not feasible. The effort to improve OpenOffice would be MASSIVE due to horrible sourcecode organization and some just plain bad practice. Also you'll find it even more difficult to handle if you can't read German. (Much of the code commenting and some of the code itself is in German). if one day you saw your kid in dangur you will help him, am i right?? or you will leave him and buy another kid from the stors?!! support Sun, Open Source, and all good manufacturar in our nice world :) Why in the heck would I want to support Sun blindly? What's in it for me? Why would I want to support manufacturers ambivilently? -Andy -mohammad _ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[OT] Re: Sun Is Losing Its Way
Amen, Brother. Kill this thread! At 01:50 AM 12/14/2002 +1100, you wrote: Brian McCallister wrote: On Fri, 2002-12-13 at 09:18, Andrew C. Oliver wrote: Because its more stable and runs faster under Linux than Star/OpenOffice? Sadly, MS Word under CrossOver Office is more stable on my Linux workstation at work than OpenOffice. Hopefully this will change. -Brian I think this thread has lost its way :-) Conor -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Micael --- This electronic mail transmission and any accompanying documents contain information belonging to the sender which may be confidential and legally privileged. This information is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to whom this electronic mail transmission was sent as indicated above. If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying, distribution, or action taken in reliance on the contents of the information contained in this transmission is strictly prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error, please delete the message. Thank you -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Sun Is Losing Its Way
On Fri, Dec 13, 2002 at 06:42:36PM +0200, mohammad nabil wrote: support Sun, Open Source, and all good manufacturar in our nice world :) Do you just not grasp that Sun's rigid control of Java is the antithesis of Open Source, and _especially_ the Apache philosophy? Try forking the Java codebase sometime. See how fast it takes Sun's lawyers to find you. Want to port Java to a new platform? Get special permission from Sun, and don't plan on having public CVS (see the FreeBSD experience). There's nothing open about that. Jeff -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Sun Is Losing Its Way
On 13/12/02 20:00 Jeff Schnitzer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, Dec 13, 2002 at 06:42:36PM +0200, mohammad nabil wrote: support Sun, Open Source, and all good manufacturar in our nice world :) Do you just not grasp that Sun's rigid control of Java is the antithesis of Open Source, and _especially_ the Apache philosophy? Try forking the Java codebase sometime. See how fast it takes Sun's lawyers to find you. Want to port Java to a new platform? Get special permission from Sun, and don't plan on having public CVS (see the FreeBSD experience). There's nothing open about that. That's why the Foundation is working to fix that... Pier -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Sun Is Losing Its Way
Sun is exactly what Microsoft would be if it were short a few billion dollars. To think otherwise is to significantly deceive ones self. -Andy Jeff Schnitzer wrote: On Fri, Dec 13, 2002 at 06:42:36PM +0200, mohammad nabil wrote: support Sun, Open Source, and all good manufacturar in our nice world :) Do you just not grasp that Sun's rigid control of Java is the antithesis of Open Source, and _especially_ the Apache philosophy? Try forking the Java codebase sometime. See how fast it takes Sun's lawyers to find you. Want to port Java to a new platform? Get special permission from Sun, and don't plan on having public CVS (see the FreeBSD experience). There's nothing open about that. Jeff -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Sun Is Losing Its Way
To suggest that Sun [t]here's nothing 'open' about Sun is not very insightful. Compare them to Microsoft, for example. You need to speak in ways that at least pass the laugh test. Sun deserves one hell of a lot of credit. At 02:44 AM 12/14/2002 +, you wrote: On 13/12/02 20:00 Jeff Schnitzer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, Dec 13, 2002 at 06:42:36PM +0200, mohammad nabil wrote: support Sun, Open Source, and all good manufacturar in our nice world :) Do you just not grasp that Sun's rigid control of Java is the antithesis of Open Source, and _especially_ the Apache philosophy? Try forking the Java codebase sometime. See how fast it takes Sun's lawyers to find you. Want to port Java to a new platform? Get special permission from Sun, and don't plan on having public CVS (see the FreeBSD experience). There's nothing open about that. That's why the Foundation is working to fix that... Pier -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Micael --- This electronic mail transmission and any accompanying documents contain information belonging to the sender which may be confidential and legally privileged. This information is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to whom this electronic mail transmission was sent as indicated above. If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying, distribution, or action taken in reliance on the contents of the information contained in this transmission is strictly prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error, please delete the message. Thank you -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Sun Is Losing Its Way
Heck yeah! First task Get a copy of NANT that does more than crap itself under mono... Very very annoying... The POIFS port is fairly senseless (for anyone who is apt to point this out) on Windows as you could obviously use the MFC apis to get at it, however, I doubt these will ever be complete on UNIX/et al.. Plus the POIFS port will make way for an HSSF/HDF C# port later on. Why? you ask... Learning experienceand delicious irony! Lets move this to [EMAIL PROTECTED] I've NO idea when this mail will make it out of my mailbox...long story regarding ice storms, downed power lines and firewalls... -Andy Bob Johnson wrote: Thanks Andy for the links. The Question I have for everybody here is does anyone have any interest in Porting any of the other jakarta projects to C# so that they may be able to run on Mono/Linux/windows .Net/Micorsoft ? I have been experimenting with Mono/MCS Microsoft/CSC for a few months. I like Mono and I think it is surprisingly fast. Andy if you need any help with a possible POIFS http://jakarta.apache.org/poi/poifs port I would be more than happy to going you if you dont mind another person who wants to learn more about C# working with you. Bob - Andrew C. Oliver wrote: Thanks Jon. Here's the link. http://www.sys-con.com/java/article.cfm?id=1714 Its an okay article. Could be a bit more in-depth I suppose, but I imagine all the people who could write that are under gag order. And if you're really depressed... Here's a quick how to for doing C#/Mono by yours truly: http://www.freeroller.net/page/acoliver/20021129 *I'm home with Mono* -Andy Jon Scott Stevens wrote: Great guest editorial article (no web link yet it seems) in the November Java Developers Journal that I suggest you read. It briefly outlines how the JCP is screwing up the way that Sun manages Java. -jon -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Sun Is Losing Its Way
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: clip I don't really want or need to see Microsoft's code. What I would like to see is their file formats, protocols and APIs being documented so that other developers, open-source or otherwise, can interoperate and compete with their products clip I agree!! We're working on it, we're working on it... ( 1. http://jakarta.apache.org/poi/poifs/fileformat.html 2. http://jakarta.apache.org/poi/hssf/chart.html 3. http://sc.openoffice.org/excelfileformat.pdf ) Maybe you should lend us a hand. Conor MacNeill conor@cortexebusine To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED] ss.com.au cc: Subject: Re: Sun Is Losing Its Way 12/10/02 08:26 AM Please respond to Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Micael, I am sorry that you think of yourself as one to be believed as dim-witted, because I know that I never inferred anything of the sort. Do you have some issues you would like to talk about?. Isn't it ironic how everyone continues bash MicroSoft because they make such horrible products, yet everyone wanted the sourcecode released. If it is such garbage, why would anyone want it??? clip God, some people! clip As for my comments being worth the time saying, you and James did read them and feel a need to respond. So maybe they were worth it after all. Personally, I don't really want or need to see Microsoft's code. What I would like to see is their file formats, protocols and APIs being documented so that other developers, open-source or otherwise, can interoperate and compete with their products. Then I can choose to use or not to use Microsoft products as I please. I'd also like to see all that provided royalty free and unencumbered by patents, submarine or otherwise. I haven't really flirted with the whole C#/.NET thing but this seems to remain a question mark over Mono and even the ECMA standardization. Anyway, back to more pleasant dreams ... Conor -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Sun Is Losing Its Way
Did you guys see in the news that Office 11 will have standard compliant XML schemas for Word and Excel files??? --DD -Original Message- From: Andrew C. Oliver [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, December 10, 2002 1:57 PM To: Jakarta General List Subject: Re: Sun Is Losing Its Way [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: clip I don't really want or need to see Microsoft's code. What I would like to see is their file formats, protocols and APIs being documented so that other developers, open-source or otherwise, can interoperate and compete with their products clip I agree!! We're working on it, we're working on it... ( 1. http://jakarta.apache.org/poi/poifs/fileformat.html 2. http://jakarta.apache.org/poi/hssf/chart.html 3. http://sc.openoffice.org/excelfileformat.pdf ) Maybe you should lend us a hand. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Sun Is Losing Its Way
Just like the news had Office 10, 9, 8, and 7 will all these XML compliance features? Office 11 will be closer than anything before, but I might be inclined to drop java if what they see is the same as what they do :) Scott -Original Message- From: Dominique Devienne [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2002 3:05 PM To: 'Jakarta General List' Subject: RE: Sun Is Losing Its Way Did you guys see in the news that Office 11 will have standard compliant XML schemas for Word and Excel files??? --DD -Original Message- From: Andrew C. Oliver [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, December 10, 2002 1:57 PM To: Jakarta General List Subject: Re: Sun Is Losing Its Way [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: clip I don't really want or need to see Microsoft's code. What I would like to see is their file formats, protocols and APIs being documented so that other developers, open-source or otherwise, can interoperate and compete with their products clip I agree!! We're working on it, we're working on it... ( 1. http://jakarta.apache.org/poi/poifs/fileformat.html 2. http://jakarta.apache.org/poi/hssf/chart.html 3. http://sc.openoffice.org/excelfileformat.pdf ) Maybe you should lend us a hand. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:general- [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Sun Is Losing Its Way
Yeah... Maybe they can make it not crash for reasonable sized files... That would be compliant.. -Andy Scott Sanders wrote: Just like the news had Office 10, 9, 8, and 7 will all these XML compliance features? Office 11 will be closer than anything before, but I might be inclined to drop java if what they see is the same as what they do :) Scott -Original Message- From: Dominique Devienne [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2002 3:05 PM To: 'Jakarta General List' Subject: RE: Sun Is Losing Its Way Did you guys see in the news that Office 11 will have standard compliant XML schemas for Word and Excel files??? --DD -Original Message- From: Andrew C. Oliver [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, December 10, 2002 1:57 PM To: Jakarta General List Subject: Re: Sun Is Losing Its Way [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: clip I don't really want or need to see Microsoft's code. What I would like to see is their file formats, protocols and APIs being documented so that other developers, open-source or otherwise, can interoperate and compete with their products clip I agree!! We're working on it, we're working on it... ( 1. http://jakarta.apache.org/poi/poifs/fileformat.html 2. http://jakarta.apache.org/poi/hssf/chart.html 3. http://sc.openoffice.org/excelfileformat.pdf ) Maybe you should lend us a hand. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:general- [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Sun Is Losing Its Way
I opened up WindoZ Word for WindoZ once to open the games that are hidden by the unhappy employees in there. You guys played the flying (space travel) games inside Word? At 07:59 PM 12/12/2002 -0800, you wrote: But EVERYONE knows Word is only used on emails and simple love letters (with viri) under 4 pages. Why would you use anything else? Scott PS I do use Windows at work, and I even once had Excel open with 4 (yes four) workbooks at one time... -Original Message- From: Andrew C. Oliver [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2002 6:00 PM To: Jakarta General List Subject: Re: Sun Is Losing Its Way Yeah... Maybe they can make it not crash for reasonable sized files... That would be compliant.. -Andy Scott Sanders wrote: Just like the news had Office 10, 9, 8, and 7 will all these XML compliance features? Office 11 will be closer than anything before, but I might be inclined to drop java if what they see is the same as what they do :) Scott -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Micael --- This electronic mail transmission and any accompanying documents contain information belonging to the sender which may be confidential and legally privileged. This information is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to whom this electronic mail transmission was sent as indicated above. If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying, distribution, or action taken in reliance on the contents of the information contained in this transmission is strictly prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error, please delete the message. Thank you -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Sun Is Losing Its Way
I particularly liked what this judge had to say: http://story.news.yahoo.com/fc?cid=34tmpl=fcin=Techcat=Microsoft_Antitrus t_Trial -Scott- - Original Message - From: Danny Angus [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Sun Is Losing Its Way That they can use such a strategy at all is enough proof for me that they hold an unhealthy monopoly over certain sectors of corporate IT, whatever any judge might say. d. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Sun Is Losing Its Way
Thats cool, Makes the judge look like the kind of guy who only understands life by analogy with sport though. I suppose American judges aren't any less insane than ours then. ;-) d. I particularly liked what this judge had to say: http://story.news.yahoo.com/fc?cid=34tmpl=fcin=Techcat=Microsof t_Antitrus t_Trial -Scott- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Sun Is Losing Its Way
On Tuesday, December 10, 2002, at 07:24 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Micael, I am sorry that you think of yourself as one to be believed as dim-witted, because I know that I never inferred anything of the sort. Do you have some issues you would like to talk about?. Isn't it ironic how everyone continues bash MicroSoft because they make such horrible products, yet everyone wanted the sourcecode released. If it is such garbage, why would anyone want it??? clip God, some people! clip So we can fix them, or remove the parts that lead to vendor lock-in. For example, I always wanted the source to VisualC++ so I could fix their project file. Instead of some stupid proprietary binary that was almost self-corrupting, I wanted to switch to a readable (fixable) text format like XML. Same with Excel - I used to do real-time financial market data stuff, and we had such problems with Excel sometimes WRT real-time updates via DDE. Now, I think Excel is one of their finest products (that and Intellimouse...), but we had needs that the average user didn't, and were happy to extend the thing if we could... As for my comments being worth the time saying, you and James did read them and feel a need to respond. So maybe they were worth it after all. Aaron micael caraunltd@harb To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED] ornet.comcc: Subject: RE: Sun Is Losing Its Way 12/06/02 07:55 PM Please respond to Jakarta General List That is funny James. I really wonder if Aaron can truly believe we are so dim-witted or that anything he said was worth the time saying. God, some people! Micael At 03:14 PM 12/6/2002 -0800, you wrote: the number 1 selling OS In case anyone hasn't seen this yet, I've attached the source code to Windows 2000. -- James Mitchell -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, December 06, 2002 11:37 AM To: Jakarta General List Subject: Re: Sun Is Losing Its Way Ive been reading this thread and I think it is a bit humorous that some people think that companies that use the open source groupies to generate thier income are not just as minipulative as the proprietary ones. clip. M$ is not looking out for me, that I am sure about. clip. neither is Sun, nor Redhat, nor Debian,... I love open source and the idea of a bunch of people working together for a common goal, but I also think that if someone wants to make a living off of selling thier product, and not support, then they should be allowed to keep their code to themselves. Sometimes I wonder if Sun would whine about Microsoft as much as they do if Sun had the number 1 selling OS. Just my opinion, but I think it's a good one. Aaron Manns -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:general- [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Micael --- This electronic mail transmission and any accompanying documents contain information belonging to the sender which may be confidential and legally privileged. This information is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to whom this electronic mail transmission was sent as indicated above. If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying, distribution, or action taken in reliance on the contents of the information contained in this transmission is strictly prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error, please delete the message. Thank you -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Geir Magnusson Jr 203-355-2219(w) Adeptra, Inc. 203-247-1713(m) [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Sun Is Losing Its Way
Geir, I appreciate the intelligent response. I have a question though, what happens when you pour your heart and soul into building a product, and make it so user friendly that not many people need support? Now your product is open source and everyone is getting it for free so nobody is buying you 'commercial' version and you can't sell enough support to earn a living? one more question, is Redhat Linux Professional Server any different from what you can download for free. If so how can they get away with that? Aaron Geir Magnusson Jr. To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED] geirm@adeptra cc: .comSubject: Re: Sun Is Losing Its Way 12/10/02 07:33 AM Please respond to Jakarta General List On Tuesday, December 10, 2002, at 07:24 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Micael, I am sorry that you think of yourself as one to be believed as dim-witted, because I know that I never inferred anything of the sort. Do you have some issues you would like to talk about?. Isn't it ironic how everyone continues bash MicroSoft because they make such horrible products, yet everyone wanted the sourcecode released. If it is such garbage, why would anyone want it??? clip God, some people! clip So we can fix them, or remove the parts that lead to vendor lock-in. For example, I always wanted the source to VisualC++ so I could fix their project file. Instead of some stupid proprietary binary that was almost self-corrupting, I wanted to switch to a readable (fixable) text format like XML. Same with Excel - I used to do real-time financial market data stuff, and we had such problems with Excel sometimes WRT real-time updates via DDE. Now, I think Excel is one of their finest products (that and Intellimouse...), but we had needs that the average user didn't, and were happy to extend the thing if we could... As for my comments being worth the time saying, you and James did read them and feel a need to respond. So maybe they were worth it after all. Aaron micael caraunltd@harb To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED] ornet.comcc: Subject: RE: Sun Is Losing Its Way 12/06/02 07:55 PM Please respond to Jakarta General List That is funny James. I really wonder if Aaron can truly believe we are so dim-witted or that anything he said was worth the time saying. God, some people! Micael At 03:14 PM 12/6/2002 -0800, you wrote: the number 1 selling OS In case anyone hasn't seen this yet, I've attached the source code to Windows 2000. -- James Mitchell -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, December 06, 2002 11:37 AM To: Jakarta General List Subject: Re: Sun Is Losing Its Way Ive been reading this thread and I think it is a bit humorous that some people think that companies that use the open source groupies to generate thier income are not just as minipulative as the proprietary ones. clip. M$ is not looking out for me, that I am sure about. clip. neither is Sun, nor Redhat, nor Debian,... I love open source and the idea of a bunch of people working together for a common goal, but I also think that if someone wants to make a living off of selling thier product, and not support, then they should be allowed to keep their code to themselves. Sometimes I wonder if Sun would whine about Microsoft as much as they do if Sun had the number 1 selling OS. Just my opinion, but I think it's a good one. Aaron Manns
RE: Sun Is Losing Its Way
is Redhat Linux Professional Server any different from what you can download for free. If so how can they get away with that? Funnily enough this is the second time I've been asked this in a month, and what I reckon is... It comes complete ready to install with tested kernel patches and admin/config for ip clustering failover with heartbeat monitoring. It includes support, including support for this extra stuff. For deploying clusters it is a more predictable baseline to work from than applying patches to several machines by hand. It doesn't (AFAIK) include any proprietery code, but all the elements have (I presume) been tested together and selected to provide reliability and stability. The opportunity cost of not buying it is time spent designing a stable configuration of these additional patches and programmes, and the cost of accepting the blame if your home-spun set-up fails in action. As the commercial target market for any high availability solution is *by definition* seeking reliability a reputable tested/testable product with support guarentees is likely to prove more attractive than an un-proven bespoke offering. Organisations which understand the software will benefit financially from replicating the set-up used by RedHat, but only if they are confident enough to take the risk. d. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Sun Is Losing Its Way
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Micael, I am sorry that you think of yourself as one to be believed as dim-witted, because I know that I never inferred anything of the sort. Do you have some issues you would like to talk about?. Isn't it ironic how everyone continues bash MicroSoft because they make such horrible products, yet everyone wanted the sourcecode released. If it is such garbage, why would anyone want it??? clip God, some people! clip As for my comments being worth the time saying, you and James did read them and feel a need to respond. So maybe they were worth it after all. Personally, I don't really want or need to see Microsoft's code. What I would like to see is their file formats, protocols and APIs being documented so that other developers, open-source or otherwise, can interoperate and compete with their products. Then I can choose to use or not to use Microsoft products as I please. I'd also like to see all that provided royalty free and unencumbered by patents, submarine or otherwise. I haven't really flirted with the whole C#/.NET thing but this seems to remain a question mark over Mono and even the ECMA standardization. Anyway, back to more pleasant dreams ... Conor -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Sun Is Losing Its Way
clip I don't really want or need to see Microsoft's code. What I would like to see is their file formats, protocols and APIs being documented so that other developers, open-source or otherwise, can interoperate and compete with their products clip I agree!! Conor MacNeill conor@cortexebusine To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED] ss.com.au cc: Subject: Re: Sun Is Losing Its Way 12/10/02 08:26 AM Please respond to Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Micael, I am sorry that you think of yourself as one to be believed as dim-witted, because I know that I never inferred anything of the sort. Do you have some issues you would like to talk about?. Isn't it ironic how everyone continues bash MicroSoft because they make such horrible products, yet everyone wanted the sourcecode released. If it is such garbage, why would anyone want it??? clip God, some people! clip As for my comments being worth the time saying, you and James did read them and feel a need to respond. So maybe they were worth it after all. Personally, I don't really want or need to see Microsoft's code. What I would like to see is their file formats, protocols and APIs being documented so that other developers, open-source or otherwise, can interoperate and compete with their products. Then I can choose to use or not to use Microsoft products as I please. I'd also like to see all that provided royalty free and unencumbered by patents, submarine or otherwise. I haven't really flirted with the whole C#/.NET thing but this seems to remain a question mark over Mono and even the ECMA standardization. Anyway, back to more pleasant dreams ... Conor -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Sun Is Losing Its Way
Hi Aaron, -Mensaje original- De: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Asunto: Re: Sun Is Losing Its Way Geir, I appreciate the intelligent response. I have a question though, what happens when you pour your heart and soul into building a product, and make it so user friendly that not many people need support? Now your product is open source and everyone is getting it for free so nobody is buying you 'commercial' version and you can't sell enough support to earn a living? If you have the ability to do such a feat, you will be worshipped. You will be able to earn a living just by giving lectures. Write a book about software development, and you will have enough royalties for the rest of your life. And with a little luck, Microsoft will make you an offer you can't refuse... Make a crippled port of their software to BSD! Un saludo, Alex.
RE: Sun Is Losing Its Way
Alex, Point taken, but I not talking about some enormous enterprise OS/networking/DB system. but more of a small (able to be developed my myself and a friend or 2) application. Perhaps an accounting app, dr office software, or warehouse inventory controller. if a programmer can sell 10,000 for $20 each. they would be doing pretty well, instead of someone just downloading it and you see nothing for your work. I feel that the interface of your product mean more than the code. If someone wants to develope an automatic order system to work with your warehouse controller then it is more important that they have a way to interact with the generated date than it is to have the code. but most small businesses don't need a huge generic DB, and possibly would be more inclined to buy a small specialized product. Why would they buy the cow if they can get the milk for free? Aaron Fernandez Martinez, AlejandroTo: 'Jakarta General List' [EMAIL PROTECTED] a.fernandez.martinez@iberm cc: atica.comSubject: RE: Sun Is Losing Its Way 12/10/02 09:13 AM Please respond to Jakarta General List Hi Aaron, -Mensaje original- De: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Asunto: Re: Sun Is Losing Its Way Geir, I appreciate the intelligent response. I have a question though, what happens when you pour your heart and soul into building a product, and make it so user friendly that not many people need support? Now your product is open source and everyone is getting it for free so nobody is buying you 'commercial' version and you can't sell enough support to earn a living? If you have the ability to do such a feat, you will be worshipped. You will be able to earn a living just by giving lectures. Write a book about software development, and you will have enough royalties for the rest of your life. And with a little luck, Microsoft will make you an offer you can't refuse... Make a crippled port of their software to BSD! Un saludo, Alex. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Sun Is Losing Its Way
I'd also like to see all that provided royalty free and unencumbered by patents, submarine or otherwise. I haven't really flirted with the whole C#/.NET thing but this seems to remain a question mark over Mono and even the ECMA standardization. C# is just another language, without .NET and the common-language-whateveritscalled its nothing special, M$'s plan looks like being to try to fool us into using C# because its more free than java, and watch us all roll up to but Visual Studio C# .NET whatever. They'll also expect to see people buying operating systems to deploy the applications on. IMO any attempt to build competitive platforms for compiled C# is doomed to fail because M$ is well known for moving the goal posts fast and far, always changing the rules of the game to stay one step ahead. That they can use such a strategy at all is enough proof for me that they hold an unhealthy monopoly over certain sectors of corporate IT, whatever any judge might say. d. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Sun Is Losing Its Way
The first boot from a heroin dealer is always free. 8^) Chuck i take care :D also, if the community decided to make things in C# then you should give Python, Eifel, COBOL, FORTRAN, ASSEMBLY, and any programming language a try, and compile all programs into these languages too, heh we have time! :s i say this because all of them have a good reason to exist such as the reasons C# has ;) Best Regards all mohammad :) _ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Sun Is Losing Its Way
Avalon has already ported some of their framework code to C# I believe. It is in CVS. - Dan Bob Johnson wrote: Thanks Andy for the links. The Question I have for everybody here is does anyone have any interest in Porting any of the other jakarta projects to C# so that they may be able to run on Mono/Linux/windows .Net/Micorsoft ? I have been experimenting with Mono/MCS Microsoft/CSC for a few months. I like Mono and I think it is surprisingly fast. Andy if you need any help with a possible POIFS http://jakarta.apache.org/poi/poifs port I would be more than happy to going you if you dont mind another person who wants to learn more about C# working with you. Bob - Andrew C. Oliver wrote: Thanks Jon. Here's the link. http://www.sys-con.com/java/article.cfm?id=1714 Its an okay article. Could be a bit more in-depth I suppose, but I imagine all the people who could write that are under gag order. And if you're really depressed... Here's a quick how to for doing C#/Mono by yours truly: http://www.freeroller.net/page/acoliver/20021129 *I'm home with Mono* -Andy Jon Scott Stevens wrote: Great guest editorial article (no web link yet it seems) in the November Java Developers Journal that I suggest you read. It briefly outlines how the JCP is screwing up the way that Sun manages Java. -jon -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Sun Is Losing Its Way
From : mohammad nabil [EMAIL PROTECTED] i will leave Apache system if you used any Micro$oft products. when you support Micro$oft you help in KILLING an open source project :'( From someone using a msn.com email account... -Vladimir -- Vladimir R. Bossicard www.bossicard.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Sun Is Losing Its Way
i disagree. C# is just a language, it is != .net. there are many pieces to the .net puzzle that you can be sure microsoft will never release to open source or a true standards body. If Apache commits to C#, it would do nothing but lend credibility to Micro$oft and .net in the eyes of uninformed people. Microsoft will not let Mono succeed no matter what they are saying now; if Mono can do the entire .net platform, how does micro$oft make money? Sun sells hardware, and if they can make money off licensing java, that is just gravy, although they would like to start making more software because of the higher margins. Sun can not stop the open source java movement as it is too mature and their customers are sensitive to it. And how many companies would actually roll out Mono when Micro$oft has patents all over the .net stuff that they could sue over at any moment. And they have a proven track record of sh*ting all over people moving in on their turf. sorry for the rant... --- Pier Fumagalli [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 6/12/02 1:00 James Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The Question I have for everybody here is does anyone have any interest in Porting any of the other jakarta projects to C# so that they may be able to run on Mono/Linux/windows .Net/Micorsoft ? what this sppose to mean ppl, why want you to support C#! Sticky issue, but from one perspective you could say that C# / CL* have more potential to be an open platform than java at the moment, considering that Microsoft has submitted most of the base platform to ECMA, while Sun still has a strangle-hold on Java... Being involved with the JCP quite closely, yes, I tend to agree... And since now C# is also available for OS/X, well, I'm game! :-) Pier -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] = An easy read on your Digital Rights Disappearing [http://newsforge.com/newsforge/02/10/21/1449250.shtml?tid=19] __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Sun Is Losing Its Way
on 2002/12/6 2:07 AM, Vladimir R. Bossicard [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From : mohammad nabil [EMAIL PROTECTED] i will leave Apache system if you used any Micro$oft products. when you support Micro$oft you help in KILLING an open source project :'( From someone using a msn.com email account... -Vladimir -- Vladimir R. Bossicard www.bossicard.com Nice catch. =) -jon -- StudioZ.tv /\ Bar/Nightclub/Entertainment 314 11th Street @ Folsom /\ San Francisco http://studioz.tv/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Sun Is Losing Its Way
From : mohammad nabil [EMAIL PROTECTED] i will leave Apache system if you used any Micro$oft products. when you support Micro$oft you help in KILLING an open source project :'( From someone using a msn.com email account... -Vladimir it is for free Mr.Colombo Holmez :) why not?!! ;) -Mohammad :) _ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Sun Is Losing Its Way
it is for free Mr.Colombo Holmez :) why not?!! ;) There are other free email accounts (like yahoo! - running on FreeBSD) Don't you think that there is a correlation between the number of msn.com users and how much M$ charges for ads on its msn.com website, and reselling your address so that you can receive more spam ? Don't you think it's _helping_ M$? If you don't like M$, don't use their products. Even if they are free. M$ never gives things for free anyway. -Vladimir -- Vladimir R. Bossicard www.bossicard.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Sun Is Losing Its Way
Being involved with the JCP quite closely, yes, I tend to agree... And since now C# is also available for OS/X, well, I'm game! :-) Me too, I may have to learn c# anyway to continue doing stuff for a client of mine who is abandoning OS in favour of M$*. Plus I'd be happy to help OS C# projects make the most of the difference between ECMA and M$. * Apparently IBM are unlikely to get a websphere sale on account of their sales guys not really seeming to know what it was they were selling, and in spite of going in as the hot favourite. d. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Sun Is Losing Its Way
At 04:31 PM 12/6/2002 +, you wrote: Being involved with the JCP quite closely, yes, I tend to agree... And since now C# is also available for OS/X, well, I'm game! :-) Me too. Not much else to do to protect oneself actually. I don't buy into all the talk that Sun is being stupid, since I don't know what I would do either, but I do know that learning C# cannot hurt. Micael --- This electronic mail transmission and any accompanying documents contain information belonging to the sender which may be confidential and legally privileged. This information is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to whom this electronic mail transmission was sent as indicated above. If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying, distribution, or action taken in reliance on the contents of the information contained in this transmission is strictly prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error, please delete the message. Thank you -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Sun Is Losing Its Way
M$ clearly has financial motives. What they are should be clarified. At 08:16 AM 12/6/2002 -0800, you wrote: it is for free Mr.Colombo Holmez :) why not?!! ;) There are other free email accounts (like yahoo! - running on FreeBSD) Don't you think that there is a correlation between the number of msn.com users and how much M$ charges for ads on its msn.com website, and reselling your address so that you can receive more spam ? Don't you think it's _helping_ M$? If you don't like M$, don't use their products. Even if they are free. M$ never gives things for free anyway. -Vladimir -- Vladimir R. Bossicard www.bossicard.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Micael --- This electronic mail transmission and any accompanying documents contain information belonging to the sender which may be confidential and legally privileged. This information is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to whom this electronic mail transmission was sent as indicated above. If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying, distribution, or action taken in reliance on the contents of the information contained in this transmission is strictly prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error, please delete the message. Thank you -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
