Re: Narrative for Finding and Reminding

[Jasper St. Pierre]

Wall of text incoming.

On Fri, May 6, 2011 at 12:15 AM, Federico Mena Quintero
wrote:

> It's Monday, your first school day after a short vacation from the
> Easter holiday.  Before vacation, you had been working on writing
> several reports about your recent field research on the coiling habits
> of the boa constrictor.
>
> After blowing away a thin layer of dust from your computer (what's
> with the cleaning staff at this campus, anyway?), you turn it on and
> log in.
>
> The first thing that greets you is the journal of the last work you did
> before you went on vacation.  Beside it you see an area for reminders
> of things that you need to get done soon.
>
> You see familiar items in your journal, in the "Last Week" section:
> two or three documents detailing different aspects of the boas,
> pictures of boas that you took in their habitat and that you have been
> editing for publication, and several IM conversations with your
> colleagues.  One of those says "conversation with Paco" - your
> Uruguayan colleague, plus a little annotation you added for that
> conversation: "retrograde boa".  You are on the trail of a peculiar
> specimen that lives in the southern hemisphere, and yet it coils
> *anticlockwise* around tree branches.
>
> Thankfully, nothing is in the area for reminders.  You were careful to
> deal with soon-to-be-pending things before your vacation.
>

OK, it seems you have two different concepts lumped under "Reminders". In
something like this, it seems like it's an automatic aggregation that gets
passively cleared. Unread Emails being one example.

In another case, you drag a PDF file to "Next Week Reminders" a la task
pooper. How do I get an endorphin-boosting clean slate there? Can I set a
goal like "send it in an email", "read it", and it's automatically cleared
after you've seen events that match the goal? Do I get a notification for
when it's scheduled and it's instantly cleared after it's fired? Do I have
to erase the reminder manually? Drag it to a "Done" pile?

Coming back from vacation means your mailbox will be full, and you
> need to go through it.  You exit the journal, and open your mail
> program.  Some mails from Paco catch your eye, so you click on them
> first.  He has a draft report about the retrograde boa, and some
> really good pictures, he says.  You save the attachments to your
> Downloads.  Surely enough, the journal notifies you that new items
> appeared.  You click on the notification; the journal comes up again,
> and you see your items there.
>
> "I don't want to read Paco's stuff just yet", you think.  "First I'll
> see if there is anything urgent in my inbox, and goddamn, I need a
> coffee."  You drag the files from the journal into the reminders area,
> specifically to the "Today" section - you want to keep those items
> around for reading later today.
>

Again, mockup would help. I'm assuming that there's new items just scattered
around in the journal, and I drag them into the "Today" pile with the rest
of the reminders?


> You go and get your coffee.
>
> Coffee by the computer effectively makes you one-handed, so you use
> the remaining hand to scroll through your mail.  Nothing out of the
> usual, fortunately; only mail that you can reply to at leisure.
>
> With coffee and an awakened brain, it's a good time to see what Paco
> was up to.  You bring up the journal and click on his draft report in
> Today's reminders.  Oowriter opens.  You read while you sip your drink.
>
> A notification tells you - your sister is on IM and wants to talk to
> you.  You put your mug down.  "Yo, dawg", she says.  "Yo", you reply.
> "Mom's birthday is in two weeks."  "Oh, you are right.  I get a cake,
> and you get a present?"  "Sure.  Gotta go; ttyl."
>
> You fire up a browser.  Google-maps for "bakeries in Dough St.", for
> that's where you know the good cakes are.  There's the link for
> Wallace and Gromit's shop.  You drag the link from the browser, hover
> on the journal, and as it appears, you drop the link into the "Next
> week" section of the reminders.  An icon appears there, and a text
> entry - "Cake for mom", you type.  You close the journal.
>

Cross-app dragging? It's an excellent pipe dream, but I'm not sure I'd like
to dig into Firefox or Qt to make it happen.


> You read on.  Paco's draft is quite good.  You can certainly reference
> it in your own papers.  So, you bring up the journal again and your
> documents are right there in the last work you did before vacation.
> You open your documents and cut and paste the citation.
>
> Paco is online.  You IM him.  "Mind if I use your retrograde photos in
> my report?"  "They are CC-BY-SA, dawg.  Go ahead."  "'k.  Sweet draft,
> BTW.".
>
> You bring up the journal again, and you make it cover only half the
> screen.  You drag Paco's pictures from the reminders section into your
> oowriter document, which of course causes them to be inserted.  "Oh,
> damnit", you think, and then you sigh, as you resign yourself t

Re: We want task bar back. Pretty please.

[Allan E. Registos]

- Original Message -

From: "Adam Tauno Williams"  
To: gnome-shell-list@gnome.org 
Sent: Friday, May 6, 2011 9:44:03 AM 
Subject: Re: We want task bar back. Pretty please. 

On Fri, 2011-05-06 at 08:01 +0800, Allan E. Registos wrote: 
> On Friday, 06 May, 2011 01:54 AM, G. Michael Carter wrote: 


> That's the best thing to do and will certainly reduced people 
> complaining the same thing (No taskbar, no min/max, no power-off, crap 
> notifications, etc.) 

Eh? Seriously? Have you seen . There you go - 
videos. 

You can't force people to go online just how to use your very friendly desktop 
especially for people without Internet (Behind firewalls, corporate desktops, 
etc), embedded tutorial videos does make sense especially if you have 56kbps 
internet connection. 

Regards, 
Allan 


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Re: We want task bar back. Pretty please.

[Allan E. Registos]

Adam: 

Does your GNOME Shell environment provides a "Welcome to Your New Desktop" kind 
of thing and then points to gnome3.org for tutorial videos? I am just 
responding to a post that suggests a Welcome dialog box in a freshly installed 
distro with GNOME Shell as the desktop. Does the stable GNOME 3 provides that? 
If not, then your gnome3.org point is moot as this has something to do with new 
users to get them informed of what's new and what's not. 

Regards, 
Allan 

- Original Message -
From: "Adam Tauno Williams"  
To: gnome-shell-list@gnome.org 
Sent: Friday, May 6, 2011 9:44:03 AM 
Subject: Re: We want task bar back. Pretty please. 

On Fri, 2011-05-06 at 08:01 +0800, Allan E. Registos wrote: 
> On Friday, 06 May, 2011 01:54 AM, G. Michael Carter wrote: 


> That's the best thing to do and will certainly reduced people 
> complaining the same thing (No taskbar, no min/max, no power-off, crap 
> notifications, etc.) 

Eh? Seriously? Have you seen . There you go - 
videos. 

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Narrative for Finding and Reminding

[Federico Mena Quintero]

It's Monday, your first school day after a short vacation from the
Easter holiday.  Before vacation, you had been working on writing
several reports about your recent field research on the coiling habits
of the boa constrictor.

After blowing away a thin layer of dust from your computer (what's
with the cleaning staff at this campus, anyway?), you turn it on and
log in.

The first thing that greets you is the journal of the last work you did
before you went on vacation.  Beside it you see an area for reminders
of things that you need to get done soon.

You see familiar items in your journal, in the "Last Week" section:
two or three documents detailing different aspects of the boas,
pictures of boas that you took in their habitat and that you have been
editing for publication, and several IM conversations with your
colleagues.  One of those says "conversation with Paco" - your
Uruguayan colleague, plus a little annotation you added for that
conversation: "retrograde boa".  You are on the trail of a peculiar
specimen that lives in the southern hemisphere, and yet it coils
*anticlockwise* around tree branches.

Thankfully, nothing is in the area for reminders.  You were careful to
deal with soon-to-be-pending things before your vacation.

Coming back from vacation means your mailbox will be full, and you
need to go through it.  You exit the journal, and open your mail
program.  Some mails from Paco catch your eye, so you click on them
first.  He has a draft report about the retrograde boa, and some
really good pictures, he says.  You save the attachments to your
Downloads.  Surely enough, the journal notifies you that new items
appeared.  You click on the notification; the journal comes up again,
and you see your items there.

"I don't want to read Paco's stuff just yet", you think.  "First I'll
see if there is anything urgent in my inbox, and goddamn, I need a
coffee."  You drag the files from the journal into the reminders area,
specifically to the "Today" section - you want to keep those items
around for reading later today.

You go and get your coffee.

Coffee by the computer effectively makes you one-handed, so you use
the remaining hand to scroll through your mail.  Nothing out of the
usual, fortunately; only mail that you can reply to at leisure.

With coffee and an awakened brain, it's a good time to see what Paco
was up to.  You bring up the journal and click on his draft report in
Today's reminders.  Oowriter opens.  You read while you sip your drink.

A notification tells you - your sister is on IM and wants to talk to
you.  You put your mug down.  "Yo, dawg", she says.  "Yo", you reply.
"Mom's birthday is in two weeks."  "Oh, you are right.  I get a cake,
and you get a present?"  "Sure.  Gotta go; ttyl."

You fire up a browser.  Google-maps for "bakeries in Dough St.", for
that's where you know the good cakes are.  There's the link for
Wallace and Gromit's shop.  You drag the link from the browser, hover
on the journal, and as it appears, you drop the link into the "Next
week" section of the reminders.  An icon appears there, and a text
entry - "Cake for mom", you type.  You close the journal.

You read on.  Paco's draft is quite good.  You can certainly reference
it in your own papers.  So, you bring up the journal again and your
documents are right there in the last work you did before vacation.
You open your documents and cut and paste the citation.

Paco is online.  You IM him.  "Mind if I use your retrograde photos in
my report?"  "They are CC-BY-SA, dawg.  Go ahead."  "'k.  Sweet draft,
BTW.".

You bring up the journal again, and you make it cover only half the
screen.  You drag Paco's pictures from the reminders section into your
oowriter document, which of course causes them to be inserted.  "Oh,
damnit", you think, and then you sigh, as you resign yourself to
having to fix the image anchors and wrapping later.

You greedily lick the last drop of coffee from the rim of your mug.

It's nice to be back.

 * * *

It is Monday, a week later.  You come to school, boot up, log in.  The
journal greets you with the results of a busy week:  lots of ephemeral
material around your three reports - images, conversations, web pages.

The reminders for "This week" catch your eye:  you see "Mom's cake"
there.  Click on it - your browser opens.  Scroll down to find the
phone number for the bakery; dial after requesting an out-line from
the university's phone system.  Wallace answers, and you can't
understand what he says at first.  You hear a tea-gulp, "oh, I'm
terribly sorry, I had a cracker in my mouth.  How may we help you?"
You order the chocolate cake with almonds, so you can pick it up
tomorrow.  "Certainly."  As you are hanging up, you hear a faint
scream, "Gromit, get to it".  That dog can bake, you think.  You leave
the reminder there, so you'll remember to pick up the cake tomorrow.
After that you'll remove the reminder so it doesn't roll over into
your journal when the week ends.

Paco IMs you. 

Re: We want task bar back. Pretty please.

[G. Michael Carter]

Nice help page.  Just having a look at it for the first time.   Ummm wonder
if that's bad... Using Gnome-Shell for over a month now and only now
noticing the help pages... [?]   Maybe there's an idea.  Have a check box in
the help page to open at startup.  Then the user can de-select it.   (or is
that like screaming RTFM?)

In anycase I really do like the help pages.

On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 10:02 PM, Jason D. Clinton wrote:

> On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 20:59, G. Michael Carter wrote:
>
>> On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 9:44 PM, Adam Tauno Williams <
>> awill...@whitemice.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On Fri, 2011-05-06 at 08:01 +0800, Allan E. Registos wrote:
>>> > On Friday, 06 May, 2011 01:54 AM, G. Michael Carter wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> > That's the best thing to do and will certainly reduced people
>>> > complaining the same thing (No taskbar, no min/max, no power-off, crap
>>> > notifications, etc.)
>>>
>>> Eh? Seriously?  Have you seen .  There you go -
>>> videos.
>>>
>>>
>> Point is your typically not getting gnome3 by going to that website.  Your
>> getting gnome 3 from Fedora or something else.   I only recently found out
>> that site existed.   That's where the welcome screen comes in handy.   For
>> the users just picking up a Fedora CD and going with it.
>>
>
> Please join the docs team and help us get the videos embedded in Yelp for
> 3.2. I'm already toying with the idea of new video content. With strict
> adherence to freeze schedule, we'll get them done in plenty of time for
> translators.
>
>
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Re: We want task bar back. Pretty please.

[Jason D. Clinton]

On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 20:59, G. Michael Carter wrote:

> On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 9:44 PM, Adam Tauno Williams <
> awill...@whitemice.org> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 2011-05-06 at 08:01 +0800, Allan E. Registos wrote:
>> > On Friday, 06 May, 2011 01:54 AM, G. Michael Carter wrote:
>>
>>
>> > That's the best thing to do and will certainly reduced people
>> > complaining the same thing (No taskbar, no min/max, no power-off, crap
>> > notifications, etc.)
>>
>> Eh? Seriously?  Have you seen .  There you go -
>> videos.
>>
>>
> Point is your typically not getting gnome3 by going to that website.  Your
> getting gnome 3 from Fedora or something else.   I only recently found out
> that site existed.   That's where the welcome screen comes in handy.   For
> the users just picking up a Fedora CD and going with it.
>

Please join the docs team and help us get the videos embedded in Yelp for
3.2. I'm already toying with the idea of new video content. With strict
adherence to freeze schedule, we'll get them done in plenty of time for
translators.
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Re: We want task bar back. Pretty please.

[G. Michael Carter]

On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 9:44 PM, Adam Tauno Williams
wrote:

> On Fri, 2011-05-06 at 08:01 +0800, Allan E. Registos wrote:
> > On Friday, 06 May, 2011 01:54 AM, G. Michael Carter wrote:
>
>
> > That's the best thing to do and will certainly reduced people
> > complaining the same thing (No taskbar, no min/max, no power-off, crap
> > notifications, etc.)
>
> Eh? Seriously?  Have you seen .  There you go -
> videos.
>
>
Point is your typically not getting gnome3 by going to that website.  Your
getting gnome 3 from Fedora or something else.   I only recently found out
that site existed.   That's where the welcome screen comes in handy.   For
the users just picking up a Fedora CD and going with it.


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Re: We want task bar back. Pretty please.

[Jason D. Clinton]

On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 20:44, Adam Tauno Williams wrote:

> On Fri, 2011-05-06 at 08:01 +0800, Allan E. Registos wrote:
> > On Friday, 06 May, 2011 01:54 AM, G. Michael Carter wrote:
>
>
> > That's the best thing to do and will certainly reduced people
> > complaining the same thing (No taskbar, no min/max, no power-off, crap
> > notifications, etc.)
>
> Eh? Seriously?  Have you seen .  There you go -
> videos.


We considered embedding videos in the help documentation but the development
of GNOME 3 ran so far past the normal freeze times that the videos were too
late for translators to have any hope of getting their work done in time for
the release.
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Re: We want task bar back. Pretty please.

[Adam Tauno Williams]

On Fri, 2011-05-06 at 08:01 +0800, Allan E. Registos wrote:
> On Friday, 06 May, 2011 01:54 AM, G. Michael Carter wrote: 


> That's the best thing to do and will certainly reduced people
> complaining the same thing (No taskbar, no min/max, no power-off, crap
> notifications, etc.)

Eh? Seriously?  Have you seen .  There you go -
videos.

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Re: We want task bar back. Pretty please. - Double post apology

[Allan E. Registos]

I used Thunderbird earlier, but I have double posts... My apologies.

Regards,
Allan


- Original Message -
From: "Allan E. Registos" 
To: gnome-shell-list@gnome.org
Sent: Friday, May 6, 2011 8:06:45 AM
Subject: Re: We want task bar back. Pretty please.

On Friday, 06 May, 2011 02:37 AM, Sriram Ramkrishna wrote:
> As someone mentioned earlier, there are extensions that can put a 
> taskbar on your screen or you can use any number of third party apps 
> like Docky or AWN that can give you similar features.  My GNOME 3 
> setup still runs docky because there are some things that GNOME 3 
> doesn't provide that I require.  You're not going to get the perfect 
> desktop from just the default setup.  A combination of extensions, and 
> third party apps and I'm a happy camper.
This is not something you need if you run Windows or OS X.  But I 
understand.

Regards,
Allan

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Re: We want task bar back. Pretty please.

[Allan E. Registos]

On Friday, 06 May, 2011 02:37 AM, Sriram Ramkrishna wrote:
As someone mentioned earlier, there are extensions that can put a 
taskbar on your screen or you can use any number of third party apps 
like Docky or AWN that can give you similar features.  My GNOME 3 
setup still runs docky because there are some things that GNOME 3 
doesn't provide that I require.  You're not going to get the perfect 
desktop from just the default setup.  A combination of extensions, and 
third party apps and I'm a happy camper.
This is not something you need if you run Windows or OS X.  But I 
understand.


Regards,
Allan

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Re: We want task bar back. Pretty please.

[Allan E. Registos]

On Friday, 06 May, 2011 01:54 AM, G. Michael Carter wrote:

I keep doing that... forgetting to hit reply-all, let's try again:

Here's a thought.   What about a dialog "welcome" box for the first 
users.  (have a check box to go away forever)


Then have links or info on how to use Gnome 3?   Maybe a video giving 
a quick tutorial?   Tips of the day?  Then it eliminates the need to 
"google" for anything.


That's the best thing to do and will certainly reduced people 
complaining the same thing (No taskbar, no min/max, no power-off, crap 
notifications, etc.)


Regards,
Allan

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Re: We want task bar back. Pretty please.

[Allan E. Registos]

On Thursday, 05 May, 2011 11:30 PM, Sriram Ramkrishna wrote:


GNOME 3 is designed to be task oriented and distraction free.

I hope this will not compromise the notification area.

Regards,
Allan

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Re: on suspend

[Allan E. Registos]

On Wednesday, 04 May, 2011 09:57 PM, Bidossessi SODONON wrote:
I believe that in Vista as well, the "shutdown" button was relegated 
to a less accessible position in favour of Suspend. I agree that it 
makes more sense for laptop users than desktops, but suspend being the 
next best thing to the fabled "fast-boot", it (suspend) does need to 
be fixed; but not by Gnome.
Why should we emulate Vista or any Windows version especially on power 
management? At least it is still available without summoning another key.


I believe GNOME should care for application compatibilities like what 
one poster here who complained about his 3D application not working in 
GNOME Shell, rather than the power management side of things which is 
basically the task of Linux kernel developers!


Regards,
Allan

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Re: on suspend

[Allan E. Registos]

On Wednesday, 04 May, 2011 09:53 PM, Olav Vitters wrote:

If suspend does not work:
1. The hardware/kernel/whatever should not advertise it as such
I've already outlined a way to detect such cases and override it
2. The bug*has*  to be reported and get fixed

Suspend is basically a repeat of:
- NetworkManager
- PulseAudio
There should be no blah blah on this matter if the "Turn Off" thingy is 
available. I have no GNOME Shell at the moment, but it would be nice if 
we hover the mouse cursor over "Suspend" and then it will show a pop-up 
notification for the user for him to get informed on what other options 
are available - like "Press Alt key to turn off".


Regards,
Allan

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Re: We want task bar back. Pretty please.

[Ryan Peters]

On 05/05/2011 05:36 PM, Ryan Peters wrote:
Also, it's faster to start an application that you didn't add to 
favorites in GNOME 2

Ack! Error. I meant GNOME 3. My apologies.
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Re: Managing Extensions.

[John Stowers]

On Thu, 2011-05-05 at 17:06 -0400, G. Michael Carter wrote:
> I was just going to suggest a extension manager in the system tools
> area... then thought... I guess we already have one for
> enable/disabling gnome-shell-extensions.  It's called PackageKit. 

Chances are high that I will add a UI for disabling / installing user
extensions in gnome-tweak-tool for the next release (3.0.4)

John

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Re: We want task bar back. Pretty please.

[Ryan Peters]

Somebody needs to take this thread out back behind the shed and put a 
bullet through it's head for the good of humanity, so I volunteer to do so.


Denys, GNOME 3 is a radical change and you have a right to be upset, but 
your responses have been rather rude. Asserting that the designers made 
the change for no reason insults their intelligence; just because you 
didn't read the design documents/pages that outlined what problems GNOME 
3 would fix with it's design doesn't mean that they "changed for the 
sake of it". As Henry Ford allegedly said, "If I had asked my customers 
what they wanted, they would have said a faster horse.". The automobile 
was awkward and totally different at first relative to horses, but it 
eventually caught on because it was a better choice than horses for most 
people.


Second, imitation isn't always the way to go. If GNOME simply stood the 
same for years without changing, there would be no innovation. In 
addition, your claim that GNOME "gives users no choice" is incredibly 
false: you can enable Forced Fallback mode in System Settings to a GNOME 
2-like UI which is meant for setups that cannot run the new GNOME 3. 
However, it's called "Fallback Mode" for a reason; it's deprecated, 
won't receive future updates unless they're extremely important, and 
GNOME 3's default desktop is much better for a variety of reasons. I, as 
well as the people working on developing and marketing GNOME 3, firmly 
believe that GNOME 3 is the future, which is a good thing and not bad 
like you suggest.


You can switch windows with Alt+Tab and Alt+[key above Tab, usually `], 
the former switching applications and the latter switching windows in an 
application. It works very well and you should try it! Also, switching 
windows is much more flexible than in GNOME 2: with the older GNOME, you 
only had Alt+Tab and a tiny window list. With GNOME 3, you get an 
"Exposé"-like view where you have nice, easily clickable thumbnails of 
every window on that workspace (especially useful on a laptop), "fling" 
gesture support to switch workspaces on touch devices, a dock-like 
window list on the left, a workspace switcher on the right with 
drag-drop support, and a search bar that works without clicking it; just 
start typing! If that doesn't satisfy you, I'm not sure what will. Of 
course, you can always write an extension that enables the behavior you 
like, but GNOME 3 should be given a fair chance first.


You can access the Activities overlay three ways: a hot corner (flinging 
your mouse to the top-left), clicking the Activities button, or a 
keyboard shortcut (Windows/Super/Meta key, Alt+F1, or whatever you set 
it to). I use the keyboard shortcut as it makes it much faster for me. I 
just tap it, click the window I want, and I've switched in less than a 
second, arguably about as fast as the task list on GNOME 2 (and in some 
cases faster because you don't have to scan a tiny list of windows like 
in GNOME 2). Your claim that GNOME doesn't let you add launchers is also 
false: right-click any running application (or any application in the 
Applications menu or Search function) and click "Add to Favorites". 
Then, just open the overlay and click it to launch. It's just as easy as 
the icons from GNOME 2, and they take up less screen space as well since 
they don't take up valuable panel real-estate. You can also manually 
organize them by dragging them up and down, which is much better than 
right-clicking the launcher, unlocking it, right-clicking it again, 
clicking "move", then moving the mouse along a gigantic panel to place 
it in a usable place (this was the GNOME 2 behavior).


Also, it's faster to start an application that you didn't add to 
favorites in GNOME 2; just search for it by opening the overlay and 
typing. It's keyboard-navigable so you can press up and down to move 
through the list. The Applications Menu isn't really intended to be used 
constantly and is only there for when you either don't know an 
application's name, don't have it on your favorites list, or are using a 
touch-device (like a tablet).


If you have any more problems with GNOME 3, please say so, but don't be 
rude about it. Also, check out gnome-tweak-tool and 
gnome-shell-extensions for some tweaks that let you customize GNOME 3 to 
how you want it to be. I hope I've helped make things more clear, and it 
would be very nice if you tried to wrap your head around the way things 
are now before going back to Fallback Mode. It might take a day, or even 
a week, but you might find that it improves your work flow a lot if you 
give it a chance.


- Sincerely, Ryan (not a Shell developer; just a user)
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Managing Extensions.

[G. Michael Carter]

I was just going to suggest a extension manager in the system tools area...
then thought... I guess we already have one for enable/disabling
gnome-shell-extensions.  It's called PackageKit.
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Re: We want task bar back. Pretty please.

[Sriram Ramkrishna]

On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 1:58 PM, Tim Murphy  wrote:

> On 5 May 2011 21:44, Sriram Ramkrishna  wrote:
> > Boy i wish I read my responses more carefully.. my English is generally
> > better than this :P
> >
> > sri
>
> Please don't worry on my account - my fingers tend to write whole
> words that my brain did not specify or miss out ones that it did and I
> am quite shocked when I re-read my own messages.  I also want to say
> thank you for your reply - I feel listened to and it might be pathetic
> of me to like that but it makes all the difference.
>
>
Part of GNOME 3 is a new attitude.  Our community outreach from GNOME 1 to
GNOME 2 was poor to non-existent and suffered from it to some extent.
Consider 3.0 to not be only be a better desktop but a better attitude.

sri
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Re: We want task bar back. Pretty please.

[Tim Murphy]

On 5 May 2011 21:44, Sriram Ramkrishna  wrote:
> Boy i wish I read my responses more carefully.. my English is generally
> better than this :P
>
> sri

Please don't worry on my account - my fingers tend to write whole
words that my brain did not specify or miss out ones that it did and I
am quite shocked when I re-read my own messages.  I also want to say
thank you for your reply - I feel listened to and it might be pathetic
of me to like that but it makes all the difference.

Regards,

Tim


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Re: We want task bar back. Pretty please.

[Sriram Ramkrishna]

Boy i wish I read my responses more carefully.. my English is generally
better than this :P

sri

On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 1:26 PM, Sriram Ramkrishna  wrote:

>
>
> On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 1:02 PM, Tim Murphy  wrote:
>
>> On 5 May 2011 19:29, Sriram Ramkrishna  wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> > On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 11:13 AM, Tim Murphy  wrote:
>>
>> >> There are hidden negatives too - the linux users in my office, for
>> >> example, tried it and gave up or gave it no chance at all -  they are
>> >> using XFCE or just not updating their distros or are trying out Ubuntu
>> >> instead or they are using the fallback for the moment now that they
>> >> have found out how to do it. They haven't emailed this list though.
>> >>
>> >
>> > Is their objection that it is different?  Office workers are generally
>> > vulnerable to change.  The reason being that they don't copious amount
>> of
>> > time to learn a new interface in the face of deadlines and what not.  A
>> > transition plan is generally required for those.. so they get a chance
>> to
>> > learn the new interface while at the same time be able to switch back in
>> > case there are issues with bad behaviour with important applications.
>>
>> No, they are software engineers who go out of their way to use Linux
>> in a fairly Linux hostile environment because it builds their code
>> faster than when they were building on windows (cross compilation for
>> mobile devices) and because they find it a better day-by-day
>> environment. I would say that their resistance to change is fairly
>> minimal as they started trying out gnome-shell before it was the
>> default and before I did, actually.  It was rejected then by choice
>> because they could try it out as an option and they removed it.  But
>> you guys can't watch what everyone does, obviously.
>>
>
> Yes, similar to why I use Linux as a desktop in a windows centric world.
> We work with linux all the time as a batch farm.  Going between windows and
> linux was always awkward and so when I aligned what I do at work with was on
> my desktop I was more efficient.
>
> Perhaps they can try a live cd now and see if it works again?
>
>
>>
>> In any case, there is a lot of reliance on the inability to change
>> argument and it does remind me of how people at my work used to defend
>> what is now an infamous product worldwide against the competition that
>> has recently slaughtered it.  Basically they thought that a lot of
>> explaining would help and they had a reason why every complaint was
>> invalid or was important or why it was unavoidable for some other
>> reason.
>>
>
> You will notice that my arguments did not implicitly say that you're afraid
> to change.  It is in fact the wrong argument to tell someone that they are
> afraid to change because it puts them on the defensive like somehow
> something is wrong with that and by extension something is wrong with you.
>
> I always push for "try it for a week"  or "try it for ten days".  Design
> choices aren't apparent at first glance until you start employing your
> muscle memory.  People adapt at different rates.  Some people as you further
> below say will suddenly be delighted, otherwise are trying to use the muscle
> memory from a previous version and find it difficult to cope.  The week sink
> period is to give people time to figure out and play around like you would
> with any new item you get.  The difference is that you're sink time should
> be on a computer that you're not using for work or something that requires
> real work to be done as you'll just induce stress.
>
>>
>> I think that instant delight is the kind of reaction that you actually
>> need to have in something that you are selling and just because the
>> gnome shell is not being sold doesn't mean that it doesn't matter.
>>
>>
> instant delight is not something that easily happens.  Someone's "instant
> delight" is someone else nightmare.  There are plenty of people if you read
> the GNOME facebook page that express delight like that.  There are a smaller
> number that have a wtf reaction.  You'll never get a universal reaction that
> way.  The sink time helps in adapt or people.
>
>
>> > My co-workers don't particularly like the new interface just from the
>> > presentation I did (they were my guinea pigs).  But then these people
>> are
>> > people who use fvwm2 over VNC on windows laptops or desktops.
>>
>> Well there I was thinking that people who wanted to use fvwm were
>> missing out because GNOME with Nautilus was really rather slick and
>> that speed was not so relevant anymore as it was when I had a much
>> less powerful computer.  But now I'm in worse position than them with
>> a way of organising my life that was friendly seeming being about to
>> disappear.  I cannot now make the new thing do what I could do before
>>
>
> In this particular case, you should make a switch until you are mentally
> ready to try something new.  GNOME 3 should be installed on a separate
> partition something to play 

Re: We want task bar back. Pretty please.

[Sriram Ramkrishna]

On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 1:02 PM, Tim Murphy  wrote:

> On 5 May 2011 19:29, Sriram Ramkrishna  wrote:
> >
> >
> > On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 11:13 AM, Tim Murphy  wrote:
>
> >> There are hidden negatives too - the linux users in my office, for
> >> example, tried it and gave up or gave it no chance at all -  they are
> >> using XFCE or just not updating their distros or are trying out Ubuntu
> >> instead or they are using the fallback for the moment now that they
> >> have found out how to do it. They haven't emailed this list though.
> >>
> >
> > Is their objection that it is different?  Office workers are generally
> > vulnerable to change.  The reason being that they don't copious amount of
> > time to learn a new interface in the face of deadlines and what not.  A
> > transition plan is generally required for those.. so they get a chance to
> > learn the new interface while at the same time be able to switch back in
> > case there are issues with bad behaviour with important applications.
>
> No, they are software engineers who go out of their way to use Linux
> in a fairly Linux hostile environment because it builds their code
> faster than when they were building on windows (cross compilation for
> mobile devices) and because they find it a better day-by-day
> environment. I would say that their resistance to change is fairly
> minimal as they started trying out gnome-shell before it was the
> default and before I did, actually.  It was rejected then by choice
> because they could try it out as an option and they removed it.  But
> you guys can't watch what everyone does, obviously.
>

Yes, similar to why I use Linux as a desktop in a windows centric world.  We
work with linux all the time as a batch farm.  Going between windows and
linux was always awkward and so when I aligned what I do at work with was on
my desktop I was more efficient.

Perhaps they can try a live cd now and see if it works again?


>
> In any case, there is a lot of reliance on the inability to change
> argument and it does remind me of how people at my work used to defend
> what is now an infamous product worldwide against the competition that
> has recently slaughtered it.  Basically they thought that a lot of
> explaining would help and they had a reason why every complaint was
> invalid or was important or why it was unavoidable for some other
> reason.
>

You will notice that my arguments did not implicitly say that you're afraid
to change.  It is in fact the wrong argument to tell someone that they are
afraid to change because it puts them on the defensive like somehow
something is wrong with that and by extension something is wrong with you.

I always push for "try it for a week"  or "try it for ten days".  Design
choices aren't apparent at first glance until you start employing your
muscle memory.  People adapt at different rates.  Some people as you further
below say will suddenly be delighted, otherwise are trying to use the muscle
memory from a previous version and find it difficult to cope.  The week sink
period is to give people time to figure out and play around like you would
with any new item you get.  The difference is that you're sink time should
be on a computer that you're not using for work or something that requires
real work to be done as you'll just induce stress.

>
> I think that instant delight is the kind of reaction that you actually
> need to have in something that you are selling and just because the
> gnome shell is not being sold doesn't mean that it doesn't matter.
>
>
instant delight is not something that easily happens.  Someone's "instant
delight" is someone else nightmare.  There are plenty of people if you read
the GNOME facebook page that express delight like that.  There are a smaller
number that have a wtf reaction.  You'll never get a universal reaction that
way.  The sink time helps in adapt or people.


> > My co-workers don't particularly like the new interface just from the
> > presentation I did (they were my guinea pigs).  But then these people are
> > people who use fvwm2 over VNC on windows laptops or desktops.
>
> Well there I was thinking that people who wanted to use fvwm were
> missing out because GNOME with Nautilus was really rather slick and
> that speed was not so relevant anymore as it was when I had a much
> less powerful computer.  But now I'm in worse position than them with
> a way of organising my life that was friendly seeming being about to
> disappear.  I cannot now make the new thing do what I could do before
>

In this particular case, you should make a switch until you are mentally
ready to try something new.  GNOME 3 should be installed on a separate
partition something to play with until you've used it enough that you're
ready to mentally accept the new interface or when extensions and new
features gives you the notification to want to do change.


> which, in my case, was to create a kind of substitute user interface
> that suited me using my desktop and short

Re: We want task bar back. Pretty please.

[Tim Murphy]

On 5 May 2011 19:29, Sriram Ramkrishna  wrote:
>
>
> On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 11:13 AM, Tim Murphy  wrote:

>> There are hidden negatives too - the linux users in my office, for
>> example, tried it and gave up or gave it no chance at all -  they are
>> using XFCE or just not updating their distros or are trying out Ubuntu
>> instead or they are using the fallback for the moment now that they
>> have found out how to do it. They haven't emailed this list though.
>>
>
> Is their objection that it is different?  Office workers are generally
> vulnerable to change.  The reason being that they don't copious amount of
> time to learn a new interface in the face of deadlines and what not.  A
> transition plan is generally required for those.. so they get a chance to
> learn the new interface while at the same time be able to switch back in
> case there are issues with bad behaviour with important applications.

No, they are software engineers who go out of their way to use Linux
in a fairly Linux hostile environment because it builds their code
faster than when they were building on windows (cross compilation for
mobile devices) and because they find it a better day-by-day
environment. I would say that their resistance to change is fairly
minimal as they started trying out gnome-shell before it was the
default and before I did, actually.  It was rejected then by choice
because they could try it out as an option and they removed it.  But
you guys can't watch what everyone does, obviously.

In any case, there is a lot of reliance on the inability to change
argument and it does remind me of how people at my work used to defend
what is now an infamous product worldwide against the competition that
has recently slaughtered it.  Basically they thought that a lot of
explaining would help and they had a reason why every complaint was
invalid or was important or why it was unavoidable for some other
reason.

I think that instant delight is the kind of reaction that you actually
need to have in something that you are selling and just because the
gnome shell is not being sold doesn't mean that it doesn't matter.

> My co-workers don't particularly like the new interface just from the
> presentation I did (they were my guinea pigs).  But then these people are
> people who use fvwm2 over VNC on windows laptops or desktops.

Well there I was thinking that people who wanted to use fvwm were
missing out because GNOME with Nautilus was really rather slick and
that speed was not so relevant anymore as it was when I had a much
less powerful computer.  But now I'm in worse position than them with
a way of organising my life that was friendly seeming being about to
disappear.  I cannot now make the new thing do what I could do before
which, in my case, was to create a kind of substitute user interface
that suited me using my desktop and shortcuts on the panel.  98% of
the applets that were out there were of no interest but a couple of
them were very useful to me in particular.

I have used a lot of GUIs from  GEM (ST and PC), Geos, Amigas, RiscOS,
one my pal designed, NextStep, The Mac, OpenDesktop etc etc.  There
are innovative concepts that have not made it to Linux yet even though
they are years old. I don't really believe that revolutionary is a
word that can be applied here to the change in the user experience and
that's why the changes are contentious - they are not really amazingly
good enough to make up for the disruption  (to some of us).

Having said all that I look forward to investigating the extension
mechanism to see how much I might be able to "make things right" and
also to trying out the ROX Desktop once more :-).

Regards,

Tim

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Re: We want task bar back. Pretty please.

[Denys Vlasenko]

On Thu, 2011-05-05 at 11:37 -0700, Sriram Ramkrishna wrote:
> 
> 
> On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 11:29 AM, Denys Vlasenko 
> wrote:
> On Thu, 2011-05-05 at 10:08 -0700, Sriram Ramkrishna wrote:
> > On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 8:57 AM, Denys Vlasenko
> 
> > wrote:
> > Is it a policy of Gnome Desktop to shoehorn users
> into fixed
> > UI style
> > instead of offering them reasonable choice? What
> next,
> > hardwired window
> > title color and size?
> >
> > There is no policy as such.  As I said earlier, why not try
> it first
> > and see how it works before criticizing the design?
> >
> > I'm a systems administrator I have a ton of windows open, I
> used to
> > use the taskbar, and I don' and it's been okay for me.
>  While
> > something was taken away,
> 
> 
> Why something has to be taken away? I mean, unconditionally?
> There is a better way: (a) make it configurable, (b) make it
> "off" by default. If almost no one switches it back on, great,
> it means practice proved that the replacement is better,
> and it can be removed altogether.
> If many people switch it back on, then perhaps it needs to
> stay.
> 
> 
> The default configuration is bare.. it's been like that even with
> GNOME 2.  Your distro puts a bunch of stuff in there to enhance the
> experience.  It's relatively the same with GNOME 3.

I *am* on my distro. Fedora 15 is this >< close to a final freeze. Not
much, if anything, can be added to F15 at this time. What I describe in
this thread is what is about to be experienced by many, many Fedora
users.

I am pretty sure even bare Gnome 2 has a panel at the top of the screen.
It has no app icons by default, yes, but you can trivially add them
by right-clicking app menu items. With Gnome 3, I have a black panel
there which still takes up the same screen real estate but doesn't seem
to support app icons. How is this an improvement?

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Re: We want task bar back. Pretty please.

[Adam Tauno Williams]

On Thu, 2011-05-05 at 20:29 +0200, Denys Vlasenko wrote:
> > I'm a systems administrator I have a ton of windows open, I used to
> > use the taskbar, and I don' and it's been okay for me.  While
> > something was taken away,
> Why something has to be taken away? I mean, unconditionally?
> There is a better way: (a) make it configurable, (b) make it
> "off" by default. If almost no one switches it back on, great,
> it means practice proved that the replacement is better,
> and it can be removed altogether.

Or (c) install a task switcher, as has already been pointed out. 

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Visualization ideas for starting applications

[Florian Kuhnt]

Hello guys!

Inspired by "Starting an app on another workspace" I got some ideas.
The following should be understood as design ideas without any idea of
how to implement them.

At the moment you can drag an application to a target workspace and
then you have to wait until the application is loaded and the main
window appears before you can do further adjustments to the
application window's size and position. Introducing a dummy window
could solve this and would bring some further improvements.


These would be:

* The dummy window (DW)
As soon as the application icon is dropped a dummy window (DW)
appears. It has window decorations, close button and maybe a large
icon of the application as a place holder in the main area.

* Visual feedback
>From initiating the application start until the actual application
appears, there is highly visible feedback saying "this application
window will soon appear here on this workspace". (Even better than the
dummy task-button in the taskbar of other OSs. ;-))

* Resizing
The DW has the size the application had before closing. It can be
resized and repositioned before the actual application is loaded. If
the "old size" is not available a standard size will be used.

* Abort loading
The application loading could be aborted before the main window
appears. Very useful when accidently starting a very large
application.

* Failing
If the application fails to start, a message appears in the DW's main
window. Maybe "retry", "console output" or other useful stuff can be
offered.

* Workspace handling
If the application is dragged to the empty workspace the DW can set
the workspace to be used and initiate creating a new empty workspace.


What do you think about these ideas?
Are there some drawbacks in a matter of design?
Is there already some work/thinking going on into this direction?

Any comments would be appreciated.
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Re: We want task bar back. Pretty please.

[Sriram Ramkrishna]

On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 10:22 AM, Denys Vlasenko  wrote:

> On Thu, 2011-05-05 at 13:03 -0400, G. Michael Carter wrote:
> > When F15 is release we should put this DL on auto-reply.   So many of
> > these "I don't like Gnome 3" e-mails and they all end the same way.
>
> Does it ring some sort of bell when you receive 'many "I don't like
> Gnome 3" e-mails'? The key word is "many".
>
>
> > I've seen the lack of a menu come up so many times
>
> What does it tell to a developer when he sees the same complaint
> coming up again and again?
>
>
I think the point is that many people do initially complain but after test
driving for a a length of time end up actually liking it after they adapt.
We do get a lot of complaints but people do end up liking it.  It does mean
that you need to honestly look at your workflow and see if you can adapt.

sri
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Re: We want task bar back. Pretty please.

[Sriram Ramkrishna]

On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 11:29 AM, Denys Vlasenko  wrote:

> On Thu, 2011-05-05 at 10:08 -0700, Sriram Ramkrishna wrote:
> > On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 8:57 AM, Denys Vlasenko 
> > wrote:
> > Is it a policy of Gnome Desktop to shoehorn users into fixed
> > UI style
> > instead of offering them reasonable choice? What next,
> > hardwired window
> > title color and size?
> >
> > There is no policy as such.  As I said earlier, why not try it first
> > and see how it works before criticizing the design?
> >
> > I'm a systems administrator I have a ton of windows open, I used to
> > use the taskbar, and I don' and it's been okay for me.  While
> > something was taken away,
>
> Why something has to be taken away? I mean, unconditionally?
> There is a better way: (a) make it configurable, (b) make it
> "off" by default. If almost no one switches it back on, great,
> it means practice proved that the replacement is better,
> and it can be removed altogether.
> If many people switch it back on, then perhaps it needs to stay.
>
>
The default configuration is bare.. it's been like that even with GNOME 2.
Your distro puts a bunch of stuff in there to enhance the experience.  It's
relatively the same with GNOME 3.

As someone mentioned earlier, there are extensions that can put a taskbar on
your screen or you can use any number of third party apps like Docky or AWN
that can give you similar features.  My GNOME 3 setup still runs docky
because there are some things that GNOME 3 doesn't provide that I require.
You're not going to get the perfect desktop from just the default setup.  A
combination of extensions, and third party apps and I'm a happy camper.

So somethings that you might be taken away, in favour of something better.
However, there are applications, extensions, a tweak tool will put back most
of the experience back.

The point though is that you should try it for a week as is.  You might
learn something.  If there is something you're missing then discuss it here.



sri
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Re: We want task bar back. Pretty please.

[Sriram Ramkrishna]

On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 11:13 AM, Tim Murphy  wrote:

> On 5 May 2011 18:55, Adam Tauno Williams  wrote:
> > On Thu, 2011-05-05 at 10:48 -0700, Micah Carrick wrote:
> >> I'll give you a quick answer to that...
> >> When we first switch to GNOME 3, many of us did not realize we were
> >> not upgrading, but switching to a completely new beast. I actually had
> >> to take a day off work to comb the internet learning about what's
> >> going on and why (we aren't all in the loop with GNOME Journal and
> >> Planet GNOME and the like). GNOME 3 is a radical shift away from what
> >> we are used to.
> >
> > Yes, it is. It is revolutionary.  And I believe that
> > GNOME3-is-a-big-change was very heavily publicized.
> >
> >> So we do a few Google searches and we find a much larger percentage of
> >> un-resolved complaints and the same ones over and over.
> >
> > Of course - search on *anything* and this is true; it is the nature of
> > the beast.  People post "complaints", they don't post "works
> > awesome" (because the are busy using whatever it is).  In my experience
> > positive posts are often taken as counter productive.
>
> There are hidden negatives too - the linux users in my office, for
> example, tried it and gave up or gave it no chance at all -  they are
> using XFCE or just not updating their distros or are trying out Ubuntu
> instead or they are using the fallback for the moment now that they
> have found out how to do it. They haven't emailed this list though.
>
>
Is their objection that it is different?  Office workers are generally
vulnerable to change.  The reason being that they don't copious amount of
time to learn a new interface in the face of deadlines and what not.  A
transition plan is generally required for those.. so they get a chance to
learn the new interface while at the same time be able to switch back in
case there are issues with bad behaviour with important applications.

My co-workers don't particularly like the new interface just from the
presentation I did (they were my guinea pigs).  But then these people are
people who use fvwm2 over VNC on windows laptops or desktops.

sri
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Re: We want task bar back. Pretty please.

[Denys Vlasenko]

On Thu, 2011-05-05 at 10:08 -0700, Sriram Ramkrishna wrote:
> On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 8:57 AM, Denys Vlasenko 
> wrote:
> Is it a policy of Gnome Desktop to shoehorn users into fixed
> UI style
> instead of offering them reasonable choice? What next,
> hardwired window
> title color and size?
> 
> There is no policy as such.  As I said earlier, why not try it first
> and see how it works before criticizing the design?
> 
> I'm a systems administrator I have a ton of windows open, I used to
> use the taskbar, and I don' and it's been okay for me.  While
> something was taken away,

Why something has to be taken away? I mean, unconditionally?
There is a better way: (a) make it configurable, (b) make it
"off" by default. If almost no one switches it back on, great,
it means practice proved that the replacement is better,
and it can be removed altogether.
If many people switch it back on, then perhaps it needs to stay.

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Re: We want task bar back. Pretty please.

[Denys Vlasenko]

On Thu, 2011-05-05 at 10:48 -0700, Micah Carrick wrote:
> I'll give you a quick answer to that...

> When we first switch to GNOME 3, many of us did not realize we were
> not upgrading, but switching to a completely new beast.

This is ...interesting. Perhaps in new release of busybox I'll switch
dd from "if=FILE of=FILE" syntax to "-i FILE -o FILE" one.
And of course, I will make sure old way doesn't work.

I bet my users would *love* that. This new syntax is more consistent,
more UNIX-like, etc... And stupid old-hatters can go screw themselves.
Right?

> So we do a few Google searches and we find a much larger percentage of
> un-resolved complaints and the same ones over and over. It gives the
> impression the the core team has not answered (which of course is not
> the case) or does not care about what *we* think (we being the
> existing user-base and "power users"). It can be difficult to navigate
> through the GNOME Wiki.
> 
> The point I am making is that while this list has answered some of
> these same questions and complaints over and over and over--the
> unanswered posts and blogs seem to drown out the answers. There is a
> lot of information to sort through.

Yes, when you get many complaints about something, one possibility is
bad or misplaced documentation. Another possibility is that they do see
a problem which is not apparent to the developer.

Example:

Recently, one user complained that DHCP client I maintain sends packets
with "secs" field set to 0.

I read the RFC and it basically says that the rationale behind this
field proved to be dubious and this field can be set to 0.
So I told the user that this is not a bug, and in order to keep things
simpler, I'm going to leave it as-is.

Then a month later another user again complained about the same thing.

This rang a bell for me. "Something is fishy here. One pedantic idiot
insisting on filling up this field is imaginable, but two?"
I asked for details. BINGO! It _is_ a real problem, because Mac OS
has an idiotic DHCP server which can be configured to answer only
to the packets with "secs" >= CONFIGURABLE_NUMBER,
and worse, by default this CONFIGURABLE_NUMBER is not 0, but 2!!!
Thus, my DHCP client never works when DHCP server runs on Mac OS!


>  I think some more work can be done on FAQ and that the marketing
> could do more to reach out to existing GNOME user-base. 

I don't see how improving docs will allow me to find or open IRC
window in tho operations: "look at the screen bottom... click there,
or click icon in the top bar". It simply doesn't work anymore.
For some unfathomable reason, app icons in the top bar are nuked too.
Moreover, the space where they sat IS NOT REUSED FOR ANYTHING,
it is just empty now. I don't get it. Why??

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Re: We want task bar back. Pretty please.

[Tim Murphy]

On 5 May 2011 18:55, Adam Tauno Williams  wrote:
> On Thu, 2011-05-05 at 10:48 -0700, Micah Carrick wrote:
>> I'll give you a quick answer to that...
>> When we first switch to GNOME 3, many of us did not realize we were
>> not upgrading, but switching to a completely new beast. I actually had
>> to take a day off work to comb the internet learning about what's
>> going on and why (we aren't all in the loop with GNOME Journal and
>> Planet GNOME and the like). GNOME 3 is a radical shift away from what
>> we are used to.
>
> Yes, it is. It is revolutionary.  And I believe that
> GNOME3-is-a-big-change was very heavily publicized.
>
>> So we do a few Google searches and we find a much larger percentage of
>> un-resolved complaints and the same ones over and over.
>
> Of course - search on *anything* and this is true; it is the nature of
> the beast.  People post "complaints", they don't post "works
> awesome" (because the are busy using whatever it is).  In my experience
> positive posts are often taken as counter productive.

There are hidden negatives too - the linux users in my office, for
example, tried it and gave up or gave it no chance at all -  they are
using XFCE or just not updating their distros or are trying out Ubuntu
instead or they are using the fallback for the moment now that they
have found out how to do it. They haven't emailed this list though.

Regards,

Tim

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Re: We want task bar back. Pretty please.

[Adam Tauno Williams]

On Thu, 2011-05-05 at 10:48 -0700, Micah Carrick wrote:
> I'll give you a quick answer to that...
> When we first switch to GNOME 3, many of us did not realize we were
> not upgrading, but switching to a completely new beast. I actually had
> to take a day off work to comb the internet learning about what's
> going on and why (we aren't all in the loop with GNOME Journal and
> Planet GNOME and the like). GNOME 3 is a radical shift away from what
> we are used to.

Yes, it is. It is revolutionary.  And I believe that
GNOME3-is-a-big-change was very heavily publicized.

> So we do a few Google searches and we find a much larger percentage of
> un-resolved complaints and the same ones over and over. 

Of course - search on *anything* and this is true; it is the nature of
the beast.  People post "complaints", they don't post "works
awesome" (because the are busy using whatever it is).  In my experience
positive posts are often taken as counter productive.

This approach to measuring is right up there is counting bugs -
sophisticated or popular software has so many *more* bug reports than
other software.  Of course.

> It gives the impression the the core team has not answered (which of
> course is not the case) or does not care about what *we* think (we
> being the existing user-base and "power users").

Doesn't give me that impression at all.  Decisions were discussed, and
made.

> The point I am making is that while this list has answered some of
> these same questions and complaints over and over and over--the
> unanswered posts and blogs seem to drown out the answers.

And they always always will.  Nature of the beast.

This weekend I intend to spend some time writing a very positive BLOG
post about GNOME3.

>  There is a lot of information to sort through. I think some more work
> can be done on FAQ and that the marketing could do more to reach out
> to existing GNOME user-base. 



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Re: We want task bar back. Pretty please.

[G. Michael Carter]

I keep doing that... forgetting to hit reply-all, let's try again:

Here's a thought.   What about a dialog "welcome" box for the first users.
 (have a check box to go away forever)

Then have links or info on how to use Gnome 3?   Maybe a video giving a
quick tutorial?   Tips of the day?  Then it eliminates the need to "google"
for anything.



On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 1:48 PM, Micah Carrick  wrote:

> I'll give you a quick answer to that...
>
> When we first switch to GNOME 3, many of us did not realize we were not
> upgrading, but switching to a completely new beast. I actually had to take a
> day off work to comb the internet learning about what's going on and why (we
> aren't all in the loop with GNOME Journal and Planet GNOME and the like).
> GNOME 3 is a radical shift away from what we are used to.
>
> So we do a few Google searches and we find a much larger percentage of
> un-resolved complaints and the same ones over and over. It gives the
> impression the the core team has not answered (which of course is not the
> case) or does not care about what *we* think (we being the existing
> user-base and "power users"). It can be difficult to navigate through the
> GNOME Wiki.
>
> The point I am making is that while this list has answered some of these
> same questions and complaints over and over and over--the unanswered posts
> and blogs seem to drown out the answers. There is a lot of information to
> sort through. I think some more work can be done on FAQ and that the
> marketing could do more to reach out to existing GNOME user-base.
>
>
>
> On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 10:36 AM, G. Michael Carter 
> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 1:28 PM, Denys Vlasenko wrote:
>>
>>> On Thu, 2011-05-05 at 13:25 -0400, Adam Tauno Williams wrote:
>>> > On Thu, 2011-05-05 at 19:22 +0200, Denys Vlasenko wrote:
>>> > > On Thu, 2011-05-05 at 13:03 -0400, G. Michael Carter wrote:
>>> > > > When F15 is release we should put this DL on auto-reply.   So many
>>> of
>>> > > > these "I don't like Gnome 3" e-mails and they all end the same way.
>>> > > Does it ring some sort of bell when you receive 'many "I don't like
>>> > > Gnome 3" e-mails'? The key word is "many".
>>> > > > I've seen the lack of a menu come up so many times
>>> > > What does it tell to a developer when he sees the same complaint
>>> > > coming up again and again?
>>> >
>>>
>>
>> Means we're only seeing part of the story?How many people are
>> complaining on this list because they like Gnome 3?  There are just as many
>> people who like the current layout.   The fact it keeps coming up again and
>> again means people just can't let go or are close minded?
>>
>>
>>> > That some user's don't read the documentation?   That's is half a joke,
>>> > and half serious.
>>>
>>> Wrong.
>>>
>>
>> Well right, in my opinion,  as far as the don't read.  This discussion is
>> in the archives of this list many many times.   Why does it have to come up
>> again? [?]
>>
>>
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>>
>>
>>
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>
>
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> www.GreenTackle.com 
>
>  Email: mi...@greentackle.com
>  Phone: 971.270.2206
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Re: We want task bar back. Pretty please.

[Sriram Ramkrishna]

On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 8:57 AM, Denys Vlasenko  wrote:

>
>
> Is it a policy of Gnome Desktop to shoehorn users into fixed UI style
> instead of offering them reasonable choice? What next, hardwired window
> title color and size?
>
> --


There is no policy as such.  As I said earlier, why not try it first and see
how it works before criticizing the design?

I'm a systems administrator I have a ton of windows open, I used to use the
taskbar, and I don' and it's been okay for me.  While something was taken
away, another method was added that hopefully will be better than what you
had before.  It does require that you keep an open mind and try it.

There are plenty of people who have similar anecdotes.

sri
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RE: We want task bar back. Pretty please.

[Mark Curtis]

> Subject: Re: We want task bar back. Pretty please.
> From: dvlas...@redhat.com
> To: awill...@redhat.com
> Date: Thu, 5 May 2011 19:47:47 +0200
> CC: gnome-shell-list@gnome.org
> 
> On Thu, 2011-05-05 at 10:31 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:
> > On Thu, 2011-05-05 at 19:22 +0200, Denys Vlasenko wrote:
> > > > I've seen the lack of a menu come up so many times 
> > > 
> > > What does it tell to a developer when he sees the same complaint
> > > coming up again and again?
> > 
> > That negative reaction to change is common.
> 
> To a needless change - sure.
> A few examples I recently saw.
> 
> Mignight Commander changed the order
> of the "Save? [Yes] [No] [Continue editing]" buttons
> in the editor exit dialog.
> One my colleague was bitching like a sailor after he lost
> his 20th edit - because his hands remember that
> "to save file, press ,,",
> but now this sequence does "exit WITHOUT saving"!
> 
> New Firefox's right click menu order changed from
> (1) Open in new Window
> (2) Open in new Tab
> to the opposite one - I am opening new windows
> instead of new tabs for the third day in a row.
> WTF?! Why was it changed? For what purpose?
> 
I don't know about midnight commander, but I do know the reasoning for Firefox. 
It was seen that more users open links in new tabs instead of new windows, much 
like yourself. Therefore Open in new Tab was put first to reduce mouse movement 
and make the more common action quicker.

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Re: We want task bar back. Pretty please.

[Micah Carrick]

I'll give you a quick answer to that...

When we first switch to GNOME 3, many of us did not realize we were not
upgrading, but switching to a completely new beast. I actually had to take a
day off work to comb the internet learning about what's going on and why (we
aren't all in the loop with GNOME Journal and Planet GNOME and the like).
GNOME 3 is a radical shift away from what we are used to.

So we do a few Google searches and we find a much larger percentage of
un-resolved complaints and the same ones over and over. It gives the
impression the the core team has not answered (which of course is not the
case) or does not care about what *we* think (we being the existing
user-base and "power users"). It can be difficult to navigate through the
GNOME Wiki.

The point I am making is that while this list has answered some of these
same questions and complaints over and over and over--the unanswered posts
and blogs seem to drown out the answers. There is a lot of information to
sort through. I think some more work can be done on FAQ and that the
marketing could do more to reach out to existing GNOME user-base.



On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 10:36 AM, G. Michael Carter wrote:

>
>
> On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 1:28 PM, Denys Vlasenko wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 2011-05-05 at 13:25 -0400, Adam Tauno Williams wrote:
>> > On Thu, 2011-05-05 at 19:22 +0200, Denys Vlasenko wrote:
>> > > On Thu, 2011-05-05 at 13:03 -0400, G. Michael Carter wrote:
>> > > > When F15 is release we should put this DL on auto-reply.   So many
>> of
>> > > > these "I don't like Gnome 3" e-mails and they all end the same way.
>> > > Does it ring some sort of bell when you receive 'many "I don't like
>> > > Gnome 3" e-mails'? The key word is "many".
>> > > > I've seen the lack of a menu come up so many times
>> > > What does it tell to a developer when he sees the same complaint
>> > > coming up again and again?
>> >
>>
>
> Means we're only seeing part of the story?How many people are
> complaining on this list because they like Gnome 3?  There are just as many
> people who like the current layout.   The fact it keeps coming up again and
> again means people just can't let go or are close minded?
>
>
>> > That some user's don't read the documentation?   That's is half a joke,
>> > and half serious.
>>
>> Wrong.
>>
>
> Well right, in my opinion,  as far as the don't read.  This discussion is
> in the archives of this list many many times.   Why does it have to come up
> again? [?]
>
>
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>
>
>
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Re: We want task bar back. Pretty please.

[Denys Vlasenko]

On Thu, 2011-05-05 at 10:31 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:
> On Thu, 2011-05-05 at 19:22 +0200, Denys Vlasenko wrote:
> > > I've seen the lack of a menu come up so many times 
> > 
> > What does it tell to a developer when he sees the same complaint
> > coming up again and again?
> 
> That negative reaction to change is common.

To a needless change - sure.
A few examples I recently saw.

Mignight Commander changed the order
of the "Save? [Yes] [No] [Continue editing]" buttons
in the editor exit dialog.
One my colleague was bitching like a sailor after he lost
his 20th edit - because his hands remember that
"to save file, press ,,",
but now this sequence does "exit WITHOUT saving"!

New Firefox's right click menu order changed from
(1) Open in new Window
(2) Open in new Tab
to the opposite one - I am opening new windows
instead of new tabs for the third day in a row.
WTF?! Why was it changed? For what purpose?

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Re: We want task bar back. Pretty please.

[Brent Foor]

Damn it gnome 3 developers. Because of you I'm getting work done faster and
spending less time dicking around with my computer everyday. I know your
thinking "oh well we did our job then" Well maybe you did it a little too
well. What would have normally taken me all day is getting done in two
hours. So now i just sit at my computer most of the day staring at it trying
to look busy so my boss will leave me alone.

There, now you have someone complaining about how much better gnome-shell
is.

Foor

On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 1:36 PM, G. Michael Carter wrote:

>
>
> On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 1:28 PM, Denys Vlasenko wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 2011-05-05 at 13:25 -0400, Adam Tauno Williams wrote:
>> > On Thu, 2011-05-05 at 19:22 +0200, Denys Vlasenko wrote:
>> > > On Thu, 2011-05-05 at 13:03 -0400, G. Michael Carter wrote:
>> > > > When F15 is release we should put this DL on auto-reply.   So many
>> of
>> > > > these "I don't like Gnome 3" e-mails and they all end the same way.
>> > > Does it ring some sort of bell when you receive 'many "I don't like
>> > > Gnome 3" e-mails'? The key word is "many".
>> > > > I've seen the lack of a menu come up so many times
>> > > What does it tell to a developer when he sees the same complaint
>> > > coming up again and again?
>> >
>>
>
> Means we're only seeing part of the story?How many people are
> complaining on this list because they like Gnome 3?  There are just as many
> people who like the current layout.   The fact it keeps coming up again and
> again means people just can't let go or are close minded?
>
>
>> > That some user's don't read the documentation?   That's is half a joke,
>> > and half serious.
>>
>> Wrong.
>>
>
> Well right, in my opinion,  as far as the don't read.  This discussion is
> in the archives of this list many many times.   Why does it have to come up
> again? [?]
>
>
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Re: We want task bar back. Pretty please.

[Thanasis Georgiou]

On Thu, 2011-05-05 at 10:31 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:
> On Thu, 2011-05-05 at 19:22 +0200, Denys Vlasenko wrote:
> 
> > > I've seen the lack of a menu come up so many times 
> > 
> > What does it tell to a developer when he sees the same complaint
> > coming up again and again?
> 
> That negative reaction to change is common.

I have to agree here. It always happen.

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Re: We want task bar back. Pretty please.

[G. Michael Carter]

On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 1:28 PM, Denys Vlasenko  wrote:

> On Thu, 2011-05-05 at 13:25 -0400, Adam Tauno Williams wrote:
> > On Thu, 2011-05-05 at 19:22 +0200, Denys Vlasenko wrote:
> > > On Thu, 2011-05-05 at 13:03 -0400, G. Michael Carter wrote:
> > > > When F15 is release we should put this DL on auto-reply.   So many of
> > > > these "I don't like Gnome 3" e-mails and they all end the same way.
> > > Does it ring some sort of bell when you receive 'many "I don't like
> > > Gnome 3" e-mails'? The key word is "many".
> > > > I've seen the lack of a menu come up so many times
> > > What does it tell to a developer when he sees the same complaint
> > > coming up again and again?
> >
>

Means we're only seeing part of the story?How many people are
complaining on this list because they like Gnome 3?  There are just as many
people who like the current layout.   The fact it keeps coming up again and
again means people just can't let go or are close minded?


> > That some user's don't read the documentation?   That's is half a joke,
> > and half serious.
>
> Wrong.
>

Well right, in my opinion,  as far as the don't read.  This discussion is in
the archives of this list many many times.   Why does it have to come up
again? [?]


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Re: We want task bar back. Pretty please.

[Adam Williamson]

On Thu, 2011-05-05 at 19:22 +0200, Denys Vlasenko wrote:

> > I've seen the lack of a menu come up so many times 
> 
> What does it tell to a developer when he sees the same complaint
> coming up again and again?

That negative reaction to change is common.
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Re: We want task bar back. Pretty please.

[Adam Williamson]

On Thu, 2011-05-05 at 13:26 -0400, Adam Tauno Williams wrote:
> On Thu, 2011-05-05 at 19:17 +0200, Florian Müllner wrote:
> > On Thu, 2011-05-05 at 13:05 -0400, Adam Tauno Williams wrote:
> > > Assigning a hot key for the activity view helps [I mapped Windows+Space,
> > > like GNOME-Do used to use] then if I need to I can pop in an out of that
> > > view without using the odd [I still find it odd] gesture/position
> > > scheme.
> > Just out of curiosity - why do you change the default hot key from
> > "Super" to "Super+Space"? Muscle memory?
> 
> Hmmm.  There was no hot-key assigned when I went into the keybindings;
> it was "Disabled".  I wasn't aware there was a default.
> 
> I looked about and couldn't find documentation of the 'official' default
> key bindings.

By default, super and alt-f1 should both trigger the overview.
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Re: We want task bar back. Pretty please.

[Denys Vlasenko]

On Thu, 2011-05-05 at 13:25 -0400, Adam Tauno Williams wrote:
> On Thu, 2011-05-05 at 19:22 +0200, Denys Vlasenko wrote:
> > On Thu, 2011-05-05 at 13:03 -0400, G. Michael Carter wrote:
> > > When F15 is release we should put this DL on auto-reply.   So many of
> > > these "I don't like Gnome 3" e-mails and they all end the same way.
> > Does it ring some sort of bell when you receive 'many "I don't like
> > Gnome 3" e-mails'? The key word is "many".
> > > I've seen the lack of a menu come up so many times 
> > What does it tell to a developer when he sees the same complaint
> > coming up again and again?
> 
> That some user's don't read the documentation?   That's is half a joke,
> and half serious.

Wrong.

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Re: We want task bar back. Pretty please.

[Adam Tauno Williams]

On Thu, 2011-05-05 at 19:17 +0200, Florian Müllner wrote:
> On Thu, 2011-05-05 at 13:05 -0400, Adam Tauno Williams wrote:
> > Assigning a hot key for the activity view helps [I mapped Windows+Space,
> > like GNOME-Do used to use] then if I need to I can pop in an out of that
> > view without using the odd [I still find it odd] gesture/position
> > scheme.
> Just out of curiosity - why do you change the default hot key from
> "Super" to "Super+Space"? Muscle memory?

Hmmm.  There was no hot-key assigned when I went into the keybindings;
it was "Disabled".  I wasn't aware there was a default.

I looked about and couldn't find documentation of the 'official' default
key bindings.

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Re: We want task bar back. Pretty please.

[Adam Tauno Williams]

On Thu, 2011-05-05 at 19:22 +0200, Denys Vlasenko wrote:
> On Thu, 2011-05-05 at 13:03 -0400, G. Michael Carter wrote:
> > When F15 is release we should put this DL on auto-reply.   So many of
> > these "I don't like Gnome 3" e-mails and they all end the same way.
> Does it ring some sort of bell when you receive 'many "I don't like
> Gnome 3" e-mails'? The key word is "many".
> > I've seen the lack of a menu come up so many times 
> What does it tell to a developer when he sees the same complaint
> coming up again and again?

That some user's don't read the documentation?   That's is half a joke,
and half serious.

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Re: We want task bar back. Pretty please.

[Denys Vlasenko]

On Thu, 2011-05-05 at 13:03 -0400, G. Michael Carter wrote:
> When F15 is release we should put this DL on auto-reply.   So many of
> these "I don't like Gnome 3" e-mails and they all end the same way.

Does it ring some sort of bell when you receive 'many "I don't like
Gnome 3" e-mails'? The key word is "many".


> I've seen the lack of a menu come up so many times 

What does it tell to a developer when he sees the same complaint
coming up again and again?

-- 
vda




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Re: We want task bar back. Pretty please.

[Florian Müllner]

On Thu, 2011-05-05 at 13:05 -0400, Adam Tauno Williams wrote:
> Assigning a hot key for the activity view helps [I mapped Windows+Space,
> like GNOME-Do used to use] then if I need to I can pop in an out of that
> view without using the odd [I still find it odd] gesture/position
> scheme.

Just out of curiosity - why do you change the default hot key from
"Super" to "Super+Space"? Muscle memory?

Florian

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Re: We want task bar back. Pretty please.

[Adam Tauno Williams]

On Thu, 2011-05-05 at 09:01 -0700, Micah Carrick wrote:
> I too was put off by this initially.  But, as was mentioned. give it a
> try and you may find you don't need it. 

+1  I'm just completing my first week using GNOME3 full-time.  I've
always had a task-bar;  I assumed having a task bar was *obvious*.  But
after a week on GNOME3... I don't care.

Assigning a hot key for the activity view helps [I mapped Windows+Space,
like GNOME-Do used to use] then if I need to I can pop in an out of that
view without using the odd [I still find it odd] gesture/position
scheme.



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Re: We want task bar back. Pretty please.

[G. Michael Carter]

When F15 is release we should put this DL on auto-reply.   So many of these
"I don't like Gnome 3" e-mails and they all end the same way.

It's this way for a reason, if you don't like it... there's this thing call
gnome-shell-extensions.

I've seen the lack of a menu come up so many times and all it took was for
someone to write it into an extension.   Same with Dock, gnome-do/docky,
tint2 so many options.
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Re: Slow search in Gnome-shell

[Erick Pérez]

> Erick, what exact version of the Shell are you using? A bug was fixed
> recently about entries being created for all results, even the ones not
> being shown. It could be that bug.

System Settings > System Info > Gnome Version 3.0.1

and pacman -Qi gnome-shell is: version 3.0.1

Erick
-- 
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Re: Slow search in Gnome-shell

[Milan Bouchet-Valat]

Le jeudi 05 mai 2011 à 12:24 -0400, Jasper St. Pierre a écrit :
> Do we do a linear scan of the things GtkRecentManager, looking for a
> string match? Hopefully we can switch over to sqlite or whatever
> Zeitgeist uses then.
String matching doesn't take seconds, even on thousands of files, does
it? (If that's indeed the case, the Shell could stop loading recent
files after reaching some maximum...)

Erick, what exact version of the Shell are you using? A bug was fixed
recently about entries being created for all results, even the ones not
being shown. It could be that bug.


Cheers


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Re: Slow search in Gnome-shell

[Erick Pérez]

> This was omitted in gnome-shell 3.0 because of time constraints. This is top
> priority for 3.2:
>
> https://live.gnome.org/ThreePointOne/Features/FindingAndReminding

In the mean time, I'll try to write an extension for it

BTW: For the developers, the performance is awesome, and the shell is
super cool, except for the power-off decision (my girlfriend was
looking for how to shutdown the pc for about two hours, and my mum
scream at me, that raise the bar a lot for non-experienced users)

Erick

-- 
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Re: Slow search in Gnome-shell

[Jasper St. Pierre]

2011/5/5 Erick Pérez 

> Hi everyone:
>
> First thought:
>
> I installed Gnome-Shell from archlinux a few days a go, and was after
> a clean pc install,
> I tried the search ability of the shell and all looks fine, but after
> a while I notice it started to slow down itself.
>
> After that I update my laptop to gnome3 using gnome-shell and
> searching there is real pain, I've been using my laptop about 6 months
> or so without cleaning the recent files, so you can imagine. When the
> search turned out slow on my laptop I erased my recently-used files,
> and the search turns lightning fast, so my concerns is
> By the time I've been using gnome-shell for two months, I can't be
> able to search anything with gnome-shell, nor even apps, which can't
> be slower because of the files.
>

Ouch :(

Do we do a linear scan of the things GtkRecentManager, looking for a string
match? Hopefully we can switch over to sqlite or whatever Zeitgeist uses
then.


> Second thought:
>
> What about adding a third category to the dash, besides windows and
> apps, place a files there, like the one in Unity ?
>

This was omitted in gnome-shell 3.0 because of time constraints. This is top
priority for 3.2:

https://live.gnome.org/ThreePointOne/Features/FindingAndReminding


> Erick
> --
> El derecho de expresar nuestros pensamientos tiene algún significado
> tan sólo si somos capaces de tener pensamientos propios.
> El miedo a la libertad, Erich Fromm
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Re: Starting an app on another workspace? [Was: GNOME 3.0 feedback and suggestions (for 3.2+)]

[Jasper St. Pierre]

The specification that applications have to support is called
startup-notification.

http://standards.freedesktop.org/startup-notification-spec/startup-notification-latest.txt

On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 9:40 AM, Adam Tauno Williams
wrote:

> On Thu, 2011-05-05 at 15:11 +0200, Milan Bouchet-Valat wrote:
> > Le jeudi 05 mai 2011 à 09:00 -0400, Adam Tauno Williams a écrit :
> > > Huh.  Should that work?  I'm in the activity view, so I see the tiled
> > > apps of the current workstation, the left hand applications bar [what
> is
> > > the official name of that thing] and on the right hand the tiled
> > > workspaces.  I grab an app and drag it to a workspace and it opens
> > > [starts] in the current workspace.  Is that incorrect [something isn't
> > > working] or am I misunderstanding the above? [because that would be an
> > > awesome feature - especially for apps that take some time to start]
> > That's currently working with GTK apps, try with Nautilus for example.
> > But some non-GTK apps don't support this for some reason, and there's a
> > bug open for that in Bugzilla.
>
> Yep, it appears to work for gnome-terminal and banshee.
>
> Not working for Nautilus or Evolution (but opening nautilus and
> evolution windows always seems odd if you already have an instance
> open).
>
> It doesn't work for DbVisualizer (Java app) or LibreOffice apps.
>
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Slow search in Gnome-shell

[Erick Pérez]

Hi everyone:

First thought:

I installed Gnome-Shell from archlinux a few days a go, and was after
a clean pc install,
I tried the search ability of the shell and all looks fine, but after
a while I notice it started to slow down itself.

After that I update my laptop to gnome3 using gnome-shell and
searching there is real pain, I've been using my laptop about 6 months
or so without cleaning the recent files, so you can imagine. When the
search turned out slow on my laptop I erased my recently-used files,
and the search turns lightning fast, so my concerns is
By the time I've been using gnome-shell for two months, I can't be
able to search anything with gnome-shell, nor even apps, which can't
be slower because of the files.

Second thought:

What about adding a third category to the dash, besides windows and
apps, place a files there, like the one in Unity ?

Erick
-- 
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tan sólo si somos capaces de tener pensamientos propios.
El miedo a la libertad, Erich Fromm
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Re: We want task bar back. Pretty please.

[Micah Carrick]

I too was put off by this initially.  But, as was mentioned. give it a try
and you may find you don't need it. I typically have a dozen applications
going for work and I have adapted quite quickly. Took me about 4 days. That
being said, I think it would be crazy not to have a good taskbar extension
with nice, smooth integration (perhaps from somebody other than the core
shell team) in future versions--I get why it's not there but that doesn't
mean people don't want it and perhaps need it.

That being said, you can install a dock extension and the tint2 taskbar also
works (at least in F15):
http://www.micahcarrick.com/gnome3-shell-taskbar-dock.html



On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 8:16 AM, Denys Vlasenko  wrote:

> I just installed F15 (Rawhide). It uses Gnome 3.
>
> I resisted the temptation to switch to Fallback mode, because
> quick googling showed me that Fallback mode will be phased out
> in not-so-distant future. Therefore I am using the new interface.
>
> My general impression as a user is negative.
> A lot of things have changed for no apparent reason, even those
> things which worked just fine. Why?
>
> To facilitate a more productive discussion, I will limit my
> rants^W feedback to one per email. So, here it goes:
>
>Where is the task bar?
>
> I am one of those guys who likes to see the bar with all running apps,
> so that I can find out what runs and what doesn't by simply looking at
> it, without any clicking and/or mouse movement. Alt-Tabbing or
> go-to-upper-left-corner'ing is a usability regression for me.
>
> I do understand that some people don't find it that important/useful,
> and they consider task bar removal a good thing which freed a bit
> of screen real estate.
>
> However, I am sure I am not alone. There are people who like the task
> bar.
>
> Since limiting the interface to only one of these choices will make
> a fraction of user population unhappy, and (I presume) Gnome wants
> to have a wide user base rather than narrow one, I propose to bring it
> back from the dead, but make optional.
>
> --
> vda
>
>
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Re: We want task bar back. Pretty please.

[Denys Vlasenko]

On Thu, 2011-05-05 at 08:30 -0700, Sriram Ramkrishna wrote:
> On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 8:16 AM, Denys Vlasenko 
> wrote:
> To facilitate a more productive discussion, I will limit my
> rants^W feedback to one per email. So, here it goes:
> 
>Where is the task bar?
> 
> Most of the answers regarding the design can be found here:
> 
> http://live.gnome.org/GnomeShell/Design/FAQ

Sure. From the FAQ:

> Why no window list or dock?

> The Shell is designed in order to minimise distraction and interuption
> and to enable users to focus on the task at hand. A persistent window
> list or dock would interfere with this goal, serving as a constant
> temptation to switch focus. The separation of window switching
> functionality into the overview means that an effective solution to
> switching is provided when it is desired by the user, but that it is
> hidden from view when it is not necessary.

I disagree. Not all people are the same. Task bar does not distract me.
I find its removal counter productive. Again, I have no problem if it
would be made configurable and can be turned off. Freedom and choice is
good (when not taken to the extremes).

Is it a policy of Gnome Desktop to shoehorn users into fixed UI style
instead of offering them reasonable choice? What next, hardwired window
title color and size?

-- 
vda


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Re: wifi and bluetooth icons on the panel

[Koppányi Tamás]

i tried to get the classic network-manager, but couldn't really install it
due to dependecy problems, and i ended up with no network after some tries.
the bluetooth is work, it appears in the settings menu, and i can connect to
it from my phone, but obex doesn't work (there used to be an option to allow
file transfer under ubuntu, but can't find it here). so i have no idea why
it is not working.


> The Bluetooth icon is only shown when the computer is reported to
> support Bluetooth. So maybe it isn't properly detected on your box -
> have a look at what the System Settings Bluetooth panel says.
>
>
> Regards
>
>
>
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Re: We want task bar back. Pretty please.

[Sriram Ramkrishna]

On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 8:16 AM, Denys Vlasenko  wrote:

> I just installed F15 (Rawhide). It uses Gnome 3.
>
> I resisted the temptation to switch to Fallback mode, because
> quick googling showed me that Fallback mode will be phased out
> in not-so-distant future. Therefore I am using the new interface.
>
> My general impression as a user is negative.
> A lot of things have changed for no apparent reason, even those
> things which worked just fine. Why?
>
> To facilitate a more productive discussion, I will limit my
> rants^W feedback to one per email. So, here it goes:
>
>Where is the task bar?
>
>

Most of the answers regarding the design can be found here:

http://live.gnome.org/GnomeShell/Design/FAQ

GNOME 3 is designed to be task oriented and distraction free.  Feel free to
peruse the FAQ as it explains some of the reasoning behind the design
decisions that were made.

You have access to the task bar in the overview.  I realize it is a large
change from what you're used to but I suggest you stick with it and try it
for a week to 10 days.  That will give you a chance to absorb things being
done the new way.

sri
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We want task bar back. Pretty please.

[Denys Vlasenko]

I just installed F15 (Rawhide). It uses Gnome 3.

I resisted the temptation to switch to Fallback mode, because
quick googling showed me that Fallback mode will be phased out
in not-so-distant future. Therefore I am using the new interface.

My general impression as a user is negative.
A lot of things have changed for no apparent reason, even those
things which worked just fine. Why?

To facilitate a more productive discussion, I will limit my
rants^W feedback to one per email. So, here it goes:

Where is the task bar?

I am one of those guys who likes to see the bar with all running apps,
so that I can find out what runs and what doesn't by simply looking at
it, without any clicking and/or mouse movement. Alt-Tabbing or
go-to-upper-left-corner'ing is a usability regression for me.

I do understand that some people don't find it that important/useful,
and they consider task bar removal a good thing which freed a bit
of screen real estate.

However, I am sure I am not alone. There are people who like the task
bar.

Since limiting the interface to only one of these choices will make
a fraction of user population unhappy, and (I presume) Gnome wants
to have a wide user base rather than narrow one, I propose to bring it
back from the dead, but make optional.

-- 
vda


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Re: Starting an app on another workspace? [Was: GNOME 3.0 feedback and suggestions (for 3.2+)]

[Adam Tauno Williams]

On Thu, 2011-05-05 at 15:11 +0200, Milan Bouchet-Valat wrote:
> Le jeudi 05 mai 2011 à 09:00 -0400, Adam Tauno Williams a écrit :
> > Huh.  Should that work?  I'm in the activity view, so I see the tiled
> > apps of the current workstation, the left hand applications bar [what is
> > the official name of that thing] and on the right hand the tiled
> > workspaces.  I grab an app and drag it to a workspace and it opens
> > [starts] in the current workspace.  Is that incorrect [something isn't
> > working] or am I misunderstanding the above? [because that would be an
> > awesome feature - especially for apps that take some time to start]
> That's currently working with GTK apps, try with Nautilus for example.
> But some non-GTK apps don't support this for some reason, and there's a
> bug open for that in Bugzilla.

Yep, it appears to work for gnome-terminal and banshee.

Not working for Nautilus or Evolution (but opening nautilus and
evolution windows always seems odd if you already have an instance
open).

It doesn't work for DbVisualizer (Java app) or LibreOffice apps.

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Re: Starting an app on another workspace? [Was: GNOME 3.0 feedback and suggestions (for 3.2+)]

[Milan Bouchet-Valat]

Le jeudi 05 mai 2011 à 09:00 -0400, Adam Tauno Williams a écrit :
> Huh.  Should that work?  I'm in the activity view, so I see the tiled
> apps of the current workstation, the left hand applications bar [what is
> the official name of that thing] and on the right hand the tiled
> workspaces.  I grab an app and drag it to a workspace and it opens
> [starts] in the current workspace.  Is that incorrect [something isn't
> working] or am I misunderstanding the above? [because that would be an
> awesome feature - especially for apps that take some time to start]
That's currently working with GTK apps, try with Nautilus for example.
But some non-GTK apps don't support this for some reason, and there's a
bug open for that in Bugzilla.


Regards


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Re: GNOME 3.0 feedback and suggestions (for 3.2+)

[Adam Tauno Williams]

On Thu, 2011-05-05 at 08:41 +0200, Frederik Hertzum wrote:
> tir, 03 05 2011 kl. 16:28 -0430, skrev Dokuro:
> > On Mon, May 2, 2011 at 5:45 PM, Frederik Hertzum
> >  wrote:
> > >
> > 
> >  Horizontal desktops missing:
> > 
> > > =
> > > 
> > >>ctrl+alt+up/down to change workspaces (virt desktops)
> > > That key-combo (or any other for that matter) doesn't allow me to do
> > > what I want. I often need more than one set of apps open, which are
> > > related in some way, which take up more space (conveniently) than my
> > > monitors allows. Simply stacking them in a long list of workspaces will
> > > only help if I only have one task (which I often don't). I always set up
> > > a 3x3 or 4x4 set of "virtual desktops" when I'm working on GNOME 2
> > > machines because it allows me to do exactly this; group my apps
> > > horizontally and keep several sets of apps open at the same time.
> It would allow me to do something similar, but it quickly becomes
> cumbersome to remember where things are, it's difficult to set up,
> since, if I want to have it sorted by task, I sometimes have to
> rearrange everything, which can take a very long time. Not having
> workspaces in two dimensions really takes the fun out of using them.

I find I use workspaces far more in GNOME3 than I did previously.  They
are simpler and much better integrated into the whole scheme of things.
[aside: GNOME3 seems a lot snappier/faster to me, switching workspaces
is *fast*].

I wonder how common your use-case is; I really can't imagine the great
majority of people having greater than 4 or 5 workspaces.  That becomes
a mentally encumbering workload.  I consider myself a 'power' user and I
typically end the day with five workspaces, which is few enough to
easily navigate in one dimension.

3x3 is 9, 4x4 is 16.  That is a lot of workspaces.  I know I'd never be
able to quickly remember what is where.  

For 4 -5 workspaces one falls into an easy routine.  For me its
1.) Email, xchat, im, SM crap, etc...
2.) Some gnome-terminals, nautilus
3.) Monodevelop, some OOo documents, a browser window for looking at
docs.
4.) DbVisualizer, a spreadsheet, maybe a terminal window
5.) Some other documents

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Starting an app on another workspace? [Was: GNOME 3.0 feedback and suggestions (for 3.2+)]

[Adam Tauno Williams]

> tir, 03 05 2011 kl. 16:28 -0430, skrev Dokuro:
> > so grabbing the app icon and moving it to the workspace you want and
> > then using ctrl+alt+up/down does not work for you, because you need
> > more rows in order to navigate them easier?

Huh.  Should that work?  I'm in the activity view, so I see the tiled
apps of the current workstation, the left hand applications bar [what is
the official name of that thing] and on the right hand the tiled
workspaces.  I grab an app and drag it to a workspace and it opens
[starts] in the current workspace.  Is that incorrect [something isn't
working] or am I misunderstanding the above? [because that would be an
awesome feature - especially for apps that take some time to start]


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Re: Designing "Finding and Reminding"

[Seif Lotfy]

Well you can do that with Zeitgeist. Since we NEVER overwrite timestamps but
rather add new we can always tell you which app you used to modify it
recently/frequenty as well as which app you used to view the file
recently/frequently.

I mean we already offer the perfect infrastructure for these problems if
Gtk.RecentManager could just be enhanced the way I described in
https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=649380

Cheers
Seif

On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 12:09 PM, Elia Cogodi  wrote:

> It sure would be confusing if the shown item was just the resource.
> But is that what the reminding part is about, pure resources?
>
> I could see some good points in actually exposing the whole "action",
> both in history/journal ("opened file X with editor Y") and in a
> favourites/ current work section. Visually the action would show both
> the resource icon and a smaller app icon (in the corner?) and
> explicitly mention the application used in textual descriptions.
> Possible exception, not show icon nor text if the app is the default
> handler.
>
> This way, I could keep "open movie with viewer" and "open movie with
> editor" as separate favourite actions - to trigger them with one
> click, drag them to a workspace and so on. The default handler would
> just be, well, the default app used to build an action if I open a
> file from a file manager or a simple search interface.
>
> Nothing keeps me from easily overriding it by just using the resource
> information when needed: drag a "open movie X with Totem" action from
> the journal/reminder thing into PiTiVi and movie X is opened with
> PiTiVi (and a new "open movie X with PiTiVi" is born in current
> activites)
>
> The way i see it, the "pure resource" view would be a grouped view of
> these actions, by resource, and it could be the best for a quick
> summary... but for a chronological view and some organizing tasks
> dealing with specific actions (and tagging them into activities) makes
> more sense.
>
> On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 11:29 AM, Milan Bouchet-Valat 
> wrote:
> > Le jeudi 05 mai 2011 à 10:20 +0100, Emmanuele Bassi a écrit :
> >> the fact that everyone uses the MIME instead of one of
> >> the applications that registered a URI in the list is just that nobody
> >> has done it because it's easier to use the default handler for the
> >> MIME type;
> > In fact, the Shell originally did so, and it was very confusing that
> > you'd never be sure what application the file would open in. So it was
> > reverted to the default handler, which is more reliable.
> >
> > Of course, it doesn't invalidate your point that the registered app can
> > be used when no default handler is available.
> >
> >
> > Regards
> >
> >
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>
>
>
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Re: Designing "Finding and Reminding"

[seiflo...@googlemail.com]

On Thursday, May 5, 2011, Emmanuele Bassi  wrote:
> On 2011-05-04 at 11:15, Colin Walters wrote:
>> On Tue, May 3, 2011 at 10:13 PM, Federico Mena Quintero
>>  wrote:
>> >
>> > Apps which don't deal in files don't use GtkRecentManager, and *those*
>> > do require changes to log to Zeitgeist directly.  Web browsers, IM
>> > clients, etc.  The Zeitgeist-dataproviders are exactly this kind of
>> > extensions to various apps.
>>
>> What I'm saying is in the big picture the API for applications should be 
>> GTK+.
>>
>> If the design calls for apps clients to "log" something, then I think
>> it would make sense to have a more expansive set of "recent" than
>> "files" - which might include say recent notes for GNote, or recently
>> viewed web pages for a browser.
>
> this is why the documentation for GtkRecentManager says "recently used
> resources" and not "recently used files"; it's designed around URI and
> not path. if it has a URI, and there is a URI handler for it, you can
> store it in the list. this means: no made up stuff, like
> "gedit:/path#line-number" or "tomboy:/note-uuid" unless it's a global
> URI handler - i.e. you can use gnome-open with it.
>
>> We could simply implement this as
>> tomboy://note-uuid1 for example, or we could add new API like
>> gtk_recent_manager_add_app_item () which will be defined to open your
>> app with the URI, and not go through the MIME system.
>
> that is already possible; it's the reason why applications have to
> describe themselves when adding a new item in the recently used
> resources list. the fact that everyone uses the MIME instead of one of
> the applications that registered a URI in the list is just that nobody
> has done it because it's easier to use the default handler for the
> MIME type; but you *can* get a list of applications that opened a URI,
> and you can get the timestamp when that happened, and the amount of
> times that happened. this information was added to the spec exactly
> because of this use case, and I think (without having seen the code)
> that's something Zeitgeist has been using.
>
> ciao,
>  Emmanuele.
>
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> B: http://blogs.gnome.org/ebassi
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The frequency provided by gtkrecentlyused is a lifetime usage counter.
Its impossible to ask for frequency in a specific timerange. As stated
before, old stuff becomes irrelevant. Thus the frequency of it in the
past should expire. Zeitgeist covers this.
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Re: Designing "Finding and Reminding"

[Elia Cogodi]

It sure would be confusing if the shown item was just the resource.
But is that what the reminding part is about, pure resources?

I could see some good points in actually exposing the whole "action",
both in history/journal ("opened file X with editor Y") and in a
favourites/ current work section. Visually the action would show both
the resource icon and a smaller app icon (in the corner?) and
explicitly mention the application used in textual descriptions.
Possible exception, not show icon nor text if the app is the default
handler.

This way, I could keep "open movie with viewer" and "open movie with
editor" as separate favourite actions - to trigger them with one
click, drag them to a workspace and so on. The default handler would
just be, well, the default app used to build an action if I open a
file from a file manager or a simple search interface.

Nothing keeps me from easily overriding it by just using the resource
information when needed: drag a "open movie X with Totem" action from
the journal/reminder thing into PiTiVi and movie X is opened with
PiTiVi (and a new "open movie X with PiTiVi" is born in current
activites)

The way i see it, the "pure resource" view would be a grouped view of
these actions, by resource, and it could be the best for a quick
summary... but for a chronological view and some organizing tasks
dealing with specific actions (and tagging them into activities) makes
more sense.

On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 11:29 AM, Milan Bouchet-Valat  wrote:
> Le jeudi 05 mai 2011 à 10:20 +0100, Emmanuele Bassi a écrit :
>> the fact that everyone uses the MIME instead of one of
>> the applications that registered a URI in the list is just that nobody
>> has done it because it's easier to use the default handler for the
>> MIME type;
> In fact, the Shell originally did so, and it was very confusing that
> you'd never be sure what application the file would open in. So it was
> reverted to the default handler, which is more reliable.
>
> Of course, it doesn't invalidate your point that the registered app can
> be used when no default handler is available.
>
>
> Regards
>
>
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Re: Fwd: Instant Message notifications

[Maciej Piechotka]

On Thu, 2011-05-05 at 11:41 +0200, Elia Cogodi wrote:
> Sure, not everybody has touch screens, mouse wheels or touchpads with
> gestures, but...
> 
> - AFAIK the trigger area for the message tray is 1 pixel high.
> Thus left and middle click on scroll bar should work ok as long as the
> user doesn't slam into the very bottom.
> 

The message tray area is one mile high[1] ;) and it is separated by few
pixels from the button which itself may be small. Other case is the
close button on really big dialogs. If you go to the corner it is very
easy to trigger it by accident - at least I find it easy and I belive I
don't have mouse skills below the average.

[1] http://joelonsoftware.com/uibook/chapters/fog63.html

> - trouble seems to mostly arise when you have no status bar in the
> maximized window, because that's when your arrow button falls in the
> very corner.
> By default editors such as gedit or libreoffice writer (where the
> functionality of 1-line-height scrolling has more sense) actually do
> show a status bar, or in the case of libreoffice writer even have
> custom navigation widgets in that corner, above the status bar.
> 

Take the epiphany and long article then. I may check with what
applications but I do trigger notification bar "by accident" although
with lower and lower frequency.

> - When you _really, really_ don't want any chrome to show, ever, I
> think the correct behaviour would actually be to encourage fullscreen:
> tap F11, work as you want without seeing anything of the shell unless
> you willingly press the super key for overview or exit the fullscreen
> mode.
> 

I often have always on top enabled because I concurrently want to have
documentation and text editor/terminal/ide opened. I believe the
always-on-top being the killer feature of Linux WM - both my friends
(both technical/power users and non-technical/advanced-but-not-power
users) wish it was present on "other" operating systems.

Regards

PS. I'm not UI designer but don't we have a paradox - we hide
notification bay to save space then nearly 'require' to have status bar
to 'waste' it. I know we have to take care about both big screens as
well as netbooks but maybe on highier resolution, where the buttons are
relatively smaller, we may just not hide message tray? Just an idea
(from person with advantage of ignorance in UI design).



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Re: Fwd: Instant Message notifications

[Elia Cogodi]

Sure, not everybody has touch screens, mouse wheels or touchpads with
gestures, but...

- AFAIK the trigger area for the message tray is 1 pixel high.
Thus left and middle click on scroll bar should work ok as long as the
user doesn't slam into the very bottom.

- trouble seems to mostly arise when you have no status bar in the
maximized window, because that's when your arrow button falls in the
very corner.
By default editors such as gedit or libreoffice writer (where the
functionality of 1-line-height scrolling has more sense) actually do
show a status bar, or in the case of libreoffice writer even have
custom navigation widgets in that corner, above the status bar.

- Also, it's not like you can't reach the arrow button, if you really
need it... you just need a more careful positioning to use it. That's
the common case for users of Windows (where you have the task bar/
notification area) and Mac users (maximized windows aren't even a
common case, and the dock by default takes up quite a lot of bottom
screen space). Do Linux applications really rely that much on that
bottom right corner in a substantially different way, that it must be
slam-friendly when maximized?

- When you _really, really_ don't want any chrome to show, ever, I
think the correct behaviour would actually be to encourage fullscreen:
tap F11, work as you want without seeing anything of the shell unless
you willingly press the super key for overview or exit the fullscreen
mode.

I agree that the current jack-in.the-box behaviour of the message tray
is sometimes obnoxious. It's just that moving the hot corner to the
left doesn't solve the fundamental problem as soon as all four corners
have a function, which is something to hope for IMO.

On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 10:44 AM, Maciej Marcin Piechotka
 wrote:
> On Thu, 2011-05-05 at 10:08 +0200, Elia Cogodi wrote:
>> After all, you can already left or middle click the scrollbar, drag
>> it, mousewheel it. On a touch screen there will be inertial scrolling
>> gestures, and for a11y the small arrow button is certainly not that
>> great...
>
> Not everyone have mouse wheel (I use trackpoint so I don't have any
> mouse wheel, I can emulate it but I prefer to have middle button) or
> touchscreen. Dragging doesn't work in all software - particulary editors
> (gedit, libreoffice/openoffice writer etc.). Left click/middle click for
> long documents doesn't work if it is near the bottom as you run into the
> same problems.
>
> Regards
>
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Re: Designing "Finding and Reminding"

[Milan Bouchet-Valat]

Le jeudi 05 mai 2011 à 10:20 +0100, Emmanuele Bassi a écrit :
> the fact that everyone uses the MIME instead of one of
> the applications that registered a URI in the list is just that nobody
> has done it because it's easier to use the default handler for the
> MIME type;
In fact, the Shell originally did so, and it was very confusing that
you'd never be sure what application the file would open in. So it was
reverted to the default handler, which is more reliable.

Of course, it doesn't invalidate your point that the registered app can
be used when no default handler is available.


Regards


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Re: wifi and bluetooth icons on the panel

[Milan Bouchet-Valat]

The network icon is just the old nm-applet if your distribution doesn't
ship the latest NetworkManager, which is probably your case. You need to
ensure nm-applet is started on login, else it won't be shown, just like
in GNOME 2. Or just run it manually. (The Debian screenshot must have
had the same problem.)

The Bluetooth icon is only shown when the computer is reported to
support Bluetooth. So maybe it isn't properly detected on your box -
have a look at what the System Settings Bluetooth panel says.


Regards


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Re: Designing "Finding and Reminding"

[Emmanuele Bassi]

On 2011-05-04 at 11:15, Colin Walters wrote:
> On Tue, May 3, 2011 at 10:13 PM, Federico Mena Quintero
>  wrote:
> >
> > Apps which don't deal in files don't use GtkRecentManager, and *those*
> > do require changes to log to Zeitgeist directly.  Web browsers, IM
> > clients, etc.  The Zeitgeist-dataproviders are exactly this kind of
> > extensions to various apps.
> 
> What I'm saying is in the big picture the API for applications should be GTK+.
> 
> If the design calls for apps clients to "log" something, then I think
> it would make sense to have a more expansive set of "recent" than
> "files" - which might include say recent notes for GNote, or recently
> viewed web pages for a browser.

this is why the documentation for GtkRecentManager says "recently used
resources" and not "recently used files"; it's designed around URI and
not path. if it has a URI, and there is a URI handler for it, you can
store it in the list. this means: no made up stuff, like
"gedit:/path#line-number" or "tomboy:/note-uuid" unless it's a global
URI handler - i.e. you can use gnome-open with it.

> We could simply implement this as
> tomboy://note-uuid1 for example, or we could add new API like
> gtk_recent_manager_add_app_item () which will be defined to open your
> app with the URI, and not go through the MIME system.

that is already possible; it's the reason why applications have to
describe themselves when adding a new item in the recently used
resources list. the fact that everyone uses the MIME instead of one of
the applications that registered a URI in the list is just that nobody
has done it because it's easier to use the default handler for the
MIME type; but you *can* get a list of applications that opened a URI,
and you can get the timestamp when that happened, and the amount of
times that happened. this information was added to the spec exactly
because of this use case, and I think (without having seen the code)
that's something Zeitgeist has been using.

ciao,
 Emmanuele.

-- 
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B: http://blogs.gnome.org/ebassi
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wifi and bluetooth icons on the panel

[Koppányi Tamás]

Hi!
I noticed that when installing gnome-shell from the Ubuntu ppa, there is no
icon on the top panel for wifi and bluetooth, as there are in other editions
(both openSuSe and Fedore, as i remember). I thought it was a Ubuntu
specific issue, but i noticed that on screenshots made under Debian testing,
these icons are also missing. Is this some package version problem? Would be
nice to control the networks from the panel, as before.

Thx.
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Re: Fwd: Instant Message notifications

[Maciej Marcin Piechotka]

On Thu, 2011-05-05 at 10:08 +0200, Elia Cogodi wrote:
> After all, you can already left or middle click the scrollbar, drag
> it, mousewheel it. On a touch screen there will be inertial scrolling
> gestures, and for a11y the small arrow button is certainly not that
> great... 

Not everyone have mouse wheel (I use trackpoint so I don't have any
mouse wheel, I can emulate it but I prefer to have middle button) or
touchscreen. Dragging doesn't work in all software - particulary editors
(gedit, libreoffice/openoffice writer etc.). Left click/middle click for
long documents doesn't work if it is near the bottom as you run into the
same problems.

Regards


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Fwd: Instant Message notifications

[Elia Cogodi]

That sounds like a very temporary solution.
What happens if the lower-left corner is needed as an active corner as
well, say to open a files/history/places left overlay column?
Corners are precious targets, should the shell lose one to a button of
questionable importance, the placement of which depends on the toolkit
theming and the window content?
After all, you can already left or middle click the scrollbar, drag
it, mousewheel it. On a touch screen there will be inertial scrolling
gestures, and for a11y the small arrow button is certainly not that
great...

What _is_ bad is the surprise/unexpected behaviour factor: the user
maximizes a window, slams the pointer to access the window UI and is
startled by the appearance of the tray. Geesh, I know about the tray
and it happens to me quite often...
The way I see it, there should be a small black, faded overlay in the
corner, where the count of unseen notifications goes, if any. Thus the
user wouldn't be surprised by the opening of the tray and wouldn't
slam the pointer to access any ui elements of a maximized window.

On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 9:36 AM, David Prieto  wrote:
> Koppányi,
>
>> this is a neat idea, but as before, i strongly suggest to move the whole
>> notification bar orientation to the left side of the screen, so that iw
>> ouldn't conflict with the scrollbars of fullscreen windows. the button to
>> scroll down is hard to hit already since it's so close to the hot-corner,
>> not to mention if it was overlayed by some graphics. the bottom-left corner
>> is unused in most of he application) in fact, i don't know any that use it),
>> so would be a perfect place.
>
> That makes a lot of sense. Would there be any downsides to placing
> notifications on the bottom-left corner?
>

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Re: Instant Message notifications

[David Prieto]

Koppányi,

this is a neat idea, but as before, i strongly suggest to move the whole
> notification bar orientation to the left side of the screen, so that iw
> ouldn't conflict with the scrollbars of fullscreen windows. the button to
> scroll down is hard to hit already since it's so close to the hot-corner,
> not to mention if it was overlayed by some graphics. the bottom-left corner
> is unused in most of he application) in fact, i don't know any that use it),
> so would be a perfect place.
>

That makes a lot of sense. Would there be any downsides to placing
notifications on the bottom-left corner?
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Re: Instant Message notifications

[Koppányi Tamás]

this is a neat idea, but as before, i strongly suggest to move the whole
notification bar orientation to the left side of the screen, so that iw
ouldn't conflict with the scrollbars of fullscreen windows. the button to
scroll down is hard to hit already since it's so close to the hot-corner,
not to mention if it was overlayed by some graphics. the bottom-left corner
is unused in most of he application) in fact, i don't know any that use it),
so would be a perfect place.

On 5 May 2011 08:43, Elia Cogodi  wrote:

> What about a very small reminder in the bottom-right corner, a simple
> small number counter that tells me how many transient notifications
> were shown and hidden without interaction since the last time I opened
> the message tray? As soon as I open the message tray it's reset and
> disappears - until it's >0 again.
> That
> - doesn't sound too distracting to me
> - educates the new user on the fact that the bottom right corner is
> actually active and contains some information
> - tells me if I have to open the message tray when I am distracted
> from the system screen for reasons that that system itself can't know
> (I've turned to speak to a co-worker, instead of locking the screen)
>
> Of course, it only works with applications that actually use the
> notification system correctly, not with legacy tray notifications just
> changing their status icon... but those applications should be fixed
> anyway.
>
>
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