Re: GNOME 3.0 feedback and suggestions (for 3.2+)
tir, 03 05 2011 kl. 16:28 -0430, skrev Dokuro: On Mon, May 2, 2011 at 5:45 PM, Frederik Hertzum frederik.hert...@gmail.com wrote: Horizontal desktops missing: = snip ctrl+alt+up/down to change workspaces (virt desktops) That key-combo (or any other for that matter) doesn't allow me to do what I want. I often need more than one set of apps open, which are related in some way, which take up more space (conveniently) than my monitors allows. Simply stacking them in a long list of workspaces will only help if I only have one task (which I often don't). I always set up a 3x3 or 4x4 set of virtual desktops when I'm working on GNOME 2 machines because it allows me to do exactly this; group my apps horizontally and keep several sets of apps open at the same time. Frederik Hertzum so grabbing the app icon and moving it to the workspace you want and then using ctrl+alt+up/down does not work for you, because you need more rows in order to navigate them easier? or another way would be, to have it like the new alt+tab with mouse and all? It would allow me to do something similar, but it quickly becomes cumbersome to remember where things are, it's difficult to set up, since, if I want to have it sorted by task, I sometimes have to rearrange everything, which can take a very long time. Not having workspaces in two dimensions really takes the fun out of using them. Frederik Hertzum ___ gnome-shell-list mailing list gnome-shell-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-shell-list
Re: Instant Message notifications
What about a very small reminder in the bottom-right corner, a simple small number counter that tells me how many transient notifications were shown and hidden without interaction since the last time I opened the message tray? As soon as I open the message tray it's reset and disappears - until it's 0 again. That - doesn't sound too distracting to me - educates the new user on the fact that the bottom right corner is actually active and contains some information - tells me if I have to open the message tray when I am distracted from the system screen for reasons that that system itself can't know (I've turned to speak to a co-worker, instead of locking the screen) Of course, it only works with applications that actually use the notification system correctly, not with legacy tray notifications just changing their status icon... but those applications should be fixed anyway. On Wed, May 4, 2011 at 6:56 PM, Adam Williamson awill...@redhat.com wrote: On Wed, 2011-05-04 at 07:40 +0200, Koppányi Tamás wrote: i am also really hoping that developers wouldfix this. also it would be great if there was better integration for empathy. right now the notification bar icon of empathy is barely cliackable (only the icon, not the text), and while the chat windows stay on the notification bar, but they have no sign that there might be new messages. last time i complained about this i got a reply that after being away from the computer for some time, the notification bar comes up to show you if there was something happening. while this is good, but since empathy windows look all the same if there was something happening or if not, i have to look through each icon manually (click them one by one, since mouseover also doesn't show anything). now this is even a bigger distraction, since because i'm affraid i'll miss some essages, i keep checking the messaging windows constantly, instead of focusing on my work. Right - we've been through this before, but this is a good way of looking at it. Like the others, I find that the current notification system does not work well for synchronous chat systems (IRC in my case) that are really important: obviously a lot of Fedora work goes through IRC so when someone pings me on IRC it really matters, but it's easy to miss a transient notification. I've developed a workflow workaround - every few minutes I either manually open the notification tray and look for the xchat bubble, or alt-tab to the xchat window - but as Koppanyi neatly points out, our having to do this is completely destroying the concept behind the transient notifications, and we're actually _more_ distracted than we were before. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net ___ gnome-shell-list mailing list gnome-shell-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-shell-list -- Elia ___ gnome-shell-list mailing list gnome-shell-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-shell-list
Re: Instant Message notifications
this is a neat idea, but as before, i strongly suggest to move the whole notification bar orientation to the left side of the screen, so that iw ouldn't conflict with the scrollbars of fullscreen windows. the button to scroll down is hard to hit already since it's so close to the hot-corner, not to mention if it was overlayed by some graphics. the bottom-left corner is unused in most of he application) in fact, i don't know any that use it), so would be a perfect place. On 5 May 2011 08:43, Elia Cogodi elia.cog...@gmail.com wrote: What about a very small reminder in the bottom-right corner, a simple small number counter that tells me how many transient notifications were shown and hidden without interaction since the last time I opened the message tray? As soon as I open the message tray it's reset and disappears - until it's 0 again. That - doesn't sound too distracting to me - educates the new user on the fact that the bottom right corner is actually active and contains some information - tells me if I have to open the message tray when I am distracted from the system screen for reasons that that system itself can't know (I've turned to speak to a co-worker, instead of locking the screen) Of course, it only works with applications that actually use the notification system correctly, not with legacy tray notifications just changing their status icon... but those applications should be fixed anyway. ___ gnome-shell-list mailing list gnome-shell-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-shell-list
Re: Instant Message notifications
Koppányi, this is a neat idea, but as before, i strongly suggest to move the whole notification bar orientation to the left side of the screen, so that iw ouldn't conflict with the scrollbars of fullscreen windows. the button to scroll down is hard to hit already since it's so close to the hot-corner, not to mention if it was overlayed by some graphics. the bottom-left corner is unused in most of he application) in fact, i don't know any that use it), so would be a perfect place. That makes a lot of sense. Would there be any downsides to placing notifications on the bottom-left corner? ___ gnome-shell-list mailing list gnome-shell-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-shell-list
Re: Fwd: Instant Message notifications
On Thu, 2011-05-05 at 10:08 +0200, Elia Cogodi wrote: After all, you can already left or middle click the scrollbar, drag it, mousewheel it. On a touch screen there will be inertial scrolling gestures, and for a11y the small arrow button is certainly not that great... Not everyone have mouse wheel (I use trackpoint so I don't have any mouse wheel, I can emulate it but I prefer to have middle button) or touchscreen. Dragging doesn't work in all software - particulary editors (gedit, libreoffice/openoffice writer etc.). Left click/middle click for long documents doesn't work if it is near the bottom as you run into the same problems. Regards signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ gnome-shell-list mailing list gnome-shell-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-shell-list
wifi and bluetooth icons on the panel
Hi! I noticed that when installing gnome-shell from the Ubuntu ppa, there is no icon on the top panel for wifi and bluetooth, as there are in other editions (both openSuSe and Fedore, as i remember). I thought it was a Ubuntu specific issue, but i noticed that on screenshots made under Debian testing, these icons are also missing. Is this some package version problem? Would be nice to control the networks from the panel, as before. Thx. ___ gnome-shell-list mailing list gnome-shell-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-shell-list
Re: Designing Finding and Reminding
On 2011-05-04 at 11:15, Colin Walters wrote: On Tue, May 3, 2011 at 10:13 PM, Federico Mena Quintero feder...@gnome.org wrote: Apps which don't deal in files don't use GtkRecentManager, and *those* do require changes to log to Zeitgeist directly. Web browsers, IM clients, etc. The Zeitgeist-dataproviders are exactly this kind of extensions to various apps. What I'm saying is in the big picture the API for applications should be GTK+. If the design calls for apps clients to log something, then I think it would make sense to have a more expansive set of recent than files - which might include say recent notes for GNote, or recently viewed web pages for a browser. this is why the documentation for GtkRecentManager says recently used resources and not recently used files; it's designed around URI and not path. if it has a URI, and there is a URI handler for it, you can store it in the list. this means: no made up stuff, like gedit:/path#line-number or tomboy:/note-uuid unless it's a global URI handler - i.e. you can use gnome-open with it. We could simply implement this as tomboy://note-uuid1 for example, or we could add new API like gtk_recent_manager_add_app_item () which will be defined to open your app with the URI, and not go through the MIME system. that is already possible; it's the reason why applications have to describe themselves when adding a new item in the recently used resources list. the fact that everyone uses the MIME instead of one of the applications that registered a URI in the list is just that nobody has done it because it's easier to use the default handler for the MIME type; but you *can* get a list of applications that opened a URI, and you can get the timestamp when that happened, and the amount of times that happened. this information was added to the spec exactly because of this use case, and I think (without having seen the code) that's something Zeitgeist has been using. ciao, Emmanuele. -- W: http://www.emmanuelebassi.name B: http://blogs.gnome.org/ebassi ___ gnome-shell-list mailing list gnome-shell-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-shell-list
Re: wifi and bluetooth icons on the panel
The network icon is just the old nm-applet if your distribution doesn't ship the latest NetworkManager, which is probably your case. You need to ensure nm-applet is started on login, else it won't be shown, just like in GNOME 2. Or just run it manually. (The Debian screenshot must have had the same problem.) The Bluetooth icon is only shown when the computer is reported to support Bluetooth. So maybe it isn't properly detected on your box - have a look at what the System Settings Bluetooth panel says. Regards ___ gnome-shell-list mailing list gnome-shell-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-shell-list
Re: Designing Finding and Reminding
Le jeudi 05 mai 2011 à 10:20 +0100, Emmanuele Bassi a écrit : the fact that everyone uses the MIME instead of one of the applications that registered a URI in the list is just that nobody has done it because it's easier to use the default handler for the MIME type; In fact, the Shell originally did so, and it was very confusing that you'd never be sure what application the file would open in. So it was reverted to the default handler, which is more reliable. Of course, it doesn't invalidate your point that the registered app can be used when no default handler is available. Regards ___ gnome-shell-list mailing list gnome-shell-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-shell-list
Re: Fwd: Instant Message notifications
Sure, not everybody has touch screens, mouse wheels or touchpads with gestures, but... - AFAIK the trigger area for the message tray is 1 pixel high. Thus left and middle click on scroll bar should work ok as long as the user doesn't slam into the very bottom. - trouble seems to mostly arise when you have no status bar in the maximized window, because that's when your arrow button falls in the very corner. By default editors such as gedit or libreoffice writer (where the functionality of 1-line-height scrolling has more sense) actually do show a status bar, or in the case of libreoffice writer even have custom navigation widgets in that corner, above the status bar. - Also, it's not like you can't reach the arrow button, if you really need it... you just need a more careful positioning to use it. That's the common case for users of Windows (where you have the task bar/ notification area) and Mac users (maximized windows aren't even a common case, and the dock by default takes up quite a lot of bottom screen space). Do Linux applications really rely that much on that bottom right corner in a substantially different way, that it must be slam-friendly when maximized? - When you _really, really_ don't want any chrome to show, ever, I think the correct behaviour would actually be to encourage fullscreen: tap F11, work as you want without seeing anything of the shell unless you willingly press the super key for overview or exit the fullscreen mode. I agree that the current jack-in.the-box behaviour of the message tray is sometimes obnoxious. It's just that moving the hot corner to the left doesn't solve the fundamental problem as soon as all four corners have a function, which is something to hope for IMO. On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 10:44 AM, Maciej Marcin Piechotka uzytkown...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, 2011-05-05 at 10:08 +0200, Elia Cogodi wrote: After all, you can already left or middle click the scrollbar, drag it, mousewheel it. On a touch screen there will be inertial scrolling gestures, and for a11y the small arrow button is certainly not that great... Not everyone have mouse wheel (I use trackpoint so I don't have any mouse wheel, I can emulate it but I prefer to have middle button) or touchscreen. Dragging doesn't work in all software - particulary editors (gedit, libreoffice/openoffice writer etc.). Left click/middle click for long documents doesn't work if it is near the bottom as you run into the same problems. Regards ___ gnome-shell-list mailing list gnome-shell-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-shell-list -- Elia ___ gnome-shell-list mailing list gnome-shell-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-shell-list
Re: Fwd: Instant Message notifications
On Thu, 2011-05-05 at 11:41 +0200, Elia Cogodi wrote: Sure, not everybody has touch screens, mouse wheels or touchpads with gestures, but... - AFAIK the trigger area for the message tray is 1 pixel high. Thus left and middle click on scroll bar should work ok as long as the user doesn't slam into the very bottom. The message tray area is one mile high[1] ;) and it is separated by few pixels from the button which itself may be small. Other case is the close button on really big dialogs. If you go to the corner it is very easy to trigger it by accident - at least I find it easy and I belive I don't have mouse skills below the average. [1] http://joelonsoftware.com/uibook/chapters/fog63.html - trouble seems to mostly arise when you have no status bar in the maximized window, because that's when your arrow button falls in the very corner. By default editors such as gedit or libreoffice writer (where the functionality of 1-line-height scrolling has more sense) actually do show a status bar, or in the case of libreoffice writer even have custom navigation widgets in that corner, above the status bar. Take the epiphany and long article then. I may check with what applications but I do trigger notification bar by accident although with lower and lower frequency. - When you _really, really_ don't want any chrome to show, ever, I think the correct behaviour would actually be to encourage fullscreen: tap F11, work as you want without seeing anything of the shell unless you willingly press the super key for overview or exit the fullscreen mode. I often have always on top enabled because I concurrently want to have documentation and text editor/terminal/ide opened. I believe the always-on-top being the killer feature of Linux WM - both my friends (both technical/power users and non-technical/advanced-but-not-power users) wish it was present on other operating systems. Regards PS. I'm not UI designer but don't we have a paradox - we hide notification bay to save space then nearly 'require' to have status bar to 'waste' it. I know we have to take care about both big screens as well as netbooks but maybe on highier resolution, where the buttons are relatively smaller, we may just not hide message tray? Just an idea (from person with advantage of ignorance in UI design). signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ gnome-shell-list mailing list gnome-shell-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-shell-list
Re: Designing Finding and Reminding
On Thursday, May 5, 2011, Emmanuele Bassi eba...@gmail.com wrote: On 2011-05-04 at 11:15, Colin Walters wrote: On Tue, May 3, 2011 at 10:13 PM, Federico Mena Quintero feder...@gnome.org wrote: Apps which don't deal in files don't use GtkRecentManager, and *those* do require changes to log to Zeitgeist directly. Web browsers, IM clients, etc. The Zeitgeist-dataproviders are exactly this kind of extensions to various apps. What I'm saying is in the big picture the API for applications should be GTK+. If the design calls for apps clients to log something, then I think it would make sense to have a more expansive set of recent than files - which might include say recent notes for GNote, or recently viewed web pages for a browser. this is why the documentation for GtkRecentManager says recently used resources and not recently used files; it's designed around URI and not path. if it has a URI, and there is a URI handler for it, you can store it in the list. this means: no made up stuff, like gedit:/path#line-number or tomboy:/note-uuid unless it's a global URI handler - i.e. you can use gnome-open with it. We could simply implement this as tomboy://note-uuid1 for example, or we could add new API like gtk_recent_manager_add_app_item () which will be defined to open your app with the URI, and not go through the MIME system. that is already possible; it's the reason why applications have to describe themselves when adding a new item in the recently used resources list. the fact that everyone uses the MIME instead of one of the applications that registered a URI in the list is just that nobody has done it because it's easier to use the default handler for the MIME type; but you *can* get a list of applications that opened a URI, and you can get the timestamp when that happened, and the amount of times that happened. this information was added to the spec exactly because of this use case, and I think (without having seen the code) that's something Zeitgeist has been using. ciao, Emmanuele. -- W: http://www.emmanuelebassi.name B: http://blogs.gnome.org/ebassi ___ gnome-shell-list mailing list gnome-shell-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-shell-list The frequency provided by gtkrecentlyused is a lifetime usage counter. Its impossible to ask for frequency in a specific timerange. As stated before, old stuff becomes irrelevant. Thus the frequency of it in the past should expire. Zeitgeist covers this. ___ gnome-shell-list mailing list gnome-shell-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-shell-list
Re: Designing Finding and Reminding
Well you can do that with Zeitgeist. Since we NEVER overwrite timestamps but rather add new we can always tell you which app you used to modify it recently/frequenty as well as which app you used to view the file recently/frequently. I mean we already offer the perfect infrastructure for these problems if Gtk.RecentManager could just be enhanced the way I described in https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=649380 Cheers Seif On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 12:09 PM, Elia Cogodi elia.cog...@gmail.com wrote: It sure would be confusing if the shown item was just the resource. But is that what the reminding part is about, pure resources? I could see some good points in actually exposing the whole action, both in history/journal (opened file X with editor Y) and in a favourites/ current work section. Visually the action would show both the resource icon and a smaller app icon (in the corner?) and explicitly mention the application used in textual descriptions. Possible exception, not show icon nor text if the app is the default handler. This way, I could keep open movie with viewer and open movie with editor as separate favourite actions - to trigger them with one click, drag them to a workspace and so on. The default handler would just be, well, the default app used to build an action if I open a file from a file manager or a simple search interface. Nothing keeps me from easily overriding it by just using the resource information when needed: drag a open movie X with Totem action from the journal/reminder thing into PiTiVi and movie X is opened with PiTiVi (and a new open movie X with PiTiVi is born in current activites) The way i see it, the pure resource view would be a grouped view of these actions, by resource, and it could be the best for a quick summary... but for a chronological view and some organizing tasks dealing with specific actions (and tagging them into activities) makes more sense. On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 11:29 AM, Milan Bouchet-Valat nalimi...@club.fr wrote: Le jeudi 05 mai 2011 à 10:20 +0100, Emmanuele Bassi a écrit : the fact that everyone uses the MIME instead of one of the applications that registered a URI in the list is just that nobody has done it because it's easier to use the default handler for the MIME type; In fact, the Shell originally did so, and it was very confusing that you'd never be sure what application the file would open in. So it was reverted to the default handler, which is more reliable. Of course, it doesn't invalidate your point that the registered app can be used when no default handler is available. Regards ___ gnome-shell-list mailing list gnome-shell-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-shell-list -- Elia ___ gnome-shell-list mailing list gnome-shell-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-shell-list ___ gnome-shell-list mailing list gnome-shell-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-shell-list
Starting an app on another workspace? [Was: GNOME 3.0 feedback and suggestions (for 3.2+)]
tir, 03 05 2011 kl. 16:28 -0430, skrev Dokuro: so grabbing the app icon and moving it to the workspace you want and then using ctrl+alt+up/down does not work for you, because you need more rows in order to navigate them easier? Huh. Should that work? I'm in the activity view, so I see the tiled apps of the current workstation, the left hand applications bar [what is the official name of that thing] and on the right hand the tiled workspaces. I grab an app and drag it to a workspace and it opens [starts] in the current workspace. Is that incorrect [something isn't working] or am I misunderstanding the above? [because that would be an awesome feature - especially for apps that take some time to start] ___ gnome-shell-list mailing list gnome-shell-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-shell-list
Re: GNOME 3.0 feedback and suggestions (for 3.2+)
On Thu, 2011-05-05 at 08:41 +0200, Frederik Hertzum wrote: tir, 03 05 2011 kl. 16:28 -0430, skrev Dokuro: On Mon, May 2, 2011 at 5:45 PM, Frederik Hertzum frederik.hert...@gmail.com wrote: Horizontal desktops missing: = snip ctrl+alt+up/down to change workspaces (virt desktops) That key-combo (or any other for that matter) doesn't allow me to do what I want. I often need more than one set of apps open, which are related in some way, which take up more space (conveniently) than my monitors allows. Simply stacking them in a long list of workspaces will only help if I only have one task (which I often don't). I always set up a 3x3 or 4x4 set of virtual desktops when I'm working on GNOME 2 machines because it allows me to do exactly this; group my apps horizontally and keep several sets of apps open at the same time. It would allow me to do something similar, but it quickly becomes cumbersome to remember where things are, it's difficult to set up, since, if I want to have it sorted by task, I sometimes have to rearrange everything, which can take a very long time. Not having workspaces in two dimensions really takes the fun out of using them. I find I use workspaces far more in GNOME3 than I did previously. They are simpler and much better integrated into the whole scheme of things. [aside: GNOME3 seems a lot snappier/faster to me, switching workspaces is *fast*]. I wonder how common your use-case is; I really can't imagine the great majority of people having greater than 4 or 5 workspaces. That becomes a mentally encumbering workload. I consider myself a 'power' user and I typically end the day with five workspaces, which is few enough to easily navigate in one dimension. 3x3 is 9, 4x4 is 16. That is a lot of workspaces. I know I'd never be able to quickly remember what is where. For 4 -5 workspaces one falls into an easy routine. For me its 1.) Email, xchat, im, SM crap, etc... 2.) Some gnome-terminals, nautilus 3.) Monodevelop, some OOo documents, a browser window for looking at docs. 4.) DbVisualizer, a spreadsheet, maybe a terminal window 5.) Some other documents ___ gnome-shell-list mailing list gnome-shell-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-shell-list
Re: Starting an app on another workspace? [Was: GNOME 3.0 feedback and suggestions (for 3.2+)]
Le jeudi 05 mai 2011 à 09:00 -0400, Adam Tauno Williams a écrit : Huh. Should that work? I'm in the activity view, so I see the tiled apps of the current workstation, the left hand applications bar [what is the official name of that thing] and on the right hand the tiled workspaces. I grab an app and drag it to a workspace and it opens [starts] in the current workspace. Is that incorrect [something isn't working] or am I misunderstanding the above? [because that would be an awesome feature - especially for apps that take some time to start] That's currently working with GTK apps, try with Nautilus for example. But some non-GTK apps don't support this for some reason, and there's a bug open for that in Bugzilla. Regards ___ gnome-shell-list mailing list gnome-shell-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-shell-list
We want task bar back. Pretty please.
I just installed F15 (Rawhide). It uses Gnome 3. I resisted the temptation to switch to Fallback mode, because quick googling showed me that Fallback mode will be phased out in not-so-distant future. Therefore I am using the new interface. My general impression as a user is negative. A lot of things have changed for no apparent reason, even those things which worked just fine. Why? To facilitate a more productive discussion, I will limit my rants^W feedback to one per email. So, here it goes: Where is the task bar? I am one of those guys who likes to see the bar with all running apps, so that I can find out what runs and what doesn't by simply looking at it, without any clicking and/or mouse movement. Alt-Tabbing or go-to-upper-left-corner'ing is a usability regression for me. I do understand that some people don't find it that important/useful, and they consider task bar removal a good thing which freed a bit of screen real estate. However, I am sure I am not alone. There are people who like the task bar. Since limiting the interface to only one of these choices will make a fraction of user population unhappy, and (I presume) Gnome wants to have a wide user base rather than narrow one, I propose to bring it back from the dead, but make optional. -- vda ___ gnome-shell-list mailing list gnome-shell-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-shell-list
Re: We want task bar back. Pretty please.
On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 8:16 AM, Denys Vlasenko dvlas...@redhat.com wrote: I just installed F15 (Rawhide). It uses Gnome 3. I resisted the temptation to switch to Fallback mode, because quick googling showed me that Fallback mode will be phased out in not-so-distant future. Therefore I am using the new interface. My general impression as a user is negative. A lot of things have changed for no apparent reason, even those things which worked just fine. Why? To facilitate a more productive discussion, I will limit my rants^W feedback to one per email. So, here it goes: Where is the task bar? Most of the answers regarding the design can be found here: http://live.gnome.org/GnomeShell/Design/FAQ GNOME 3 is designed to be task oriented and distraction free. Feel free to peruse the FAQ as it explains some of the reasoning behind the design decisions that were made. You have access to the task bar in the overview. I realize it is a large change from what you're used to but I suggest you stick with it and try it for a week to 10 days. That will give you a chance to absorb things being done the new way. sri ___ gnome-shell-list mailing list gnome-shell-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-shell-list
Re: We want task bar back. Pretty please.
On Thu, 2011-05-05 at 08:30 -0700, Sriram Ramkrishna wrote: On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 8:16 AM, Denys Vlasenko dvlas...@redhat.com wrote: To facilitate a more productive discussion, I will limit my rants^W feedback to one per email. So, here it goes: Where is the task bar? Most of the answers regarding the design can be found here: http://live.gnome.org/GnomeShell/Design/FAQ Sure. From the FAQ: Why no window list or dock? The Shell is designed in order to minimise distraction and interuption and to enable users to focus on the task at hand. A persistent window list or dock would interfere with this goal, serving as a constant temptation to switch focus. The separation of window switching functionality into the overview means that an effective solution to switching is provided when it is desired by the user, but that it is hidden from view when it is not necessary. I disagree. Not all people are the same. Task bar does not distract me. I find its removal counter productive. Again, I have no problem if it would be made configurable and can be turned off. Freedom and choice is good (when not taken to the extremes). Is it a policy of Gnome Desktop to shoehorn users into fixed UI style instead of offering them reasonable choice? What next, hardwired window title color and size? -- vda ___ gnome-shell-list mailing list gnome-shell-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-shell-list
Re: We want task bar back. Pretty please.
I too was put off by this initially. But, as was mentioned. give it a try and you may find you don't need it. I typically have a dozen applications going for work and I have adapted quite quickly. Took me about 4 days. That being said, I think it would be crazy not to have a good taskbar extension with nice, smooth integration (perhaps from somebody other than the core shell team) in future versions--I get why it's not there but that doesn't mean people don't want it and perhaps need it. That being said, you can install a dock extension and the tint2 taskbar also works (at least in F15): http://www.micahcarrick.com/gnome3-shell-taskbar-dock.html http://www.micahcarrick.com/gnome3-shell-taskbar-dock.html On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 8:16 AM, Denys Vlasenko dvlas...@redhat.com wrote: I just installed F15 (Rawhide). It uses Gnome 3. I resisted the temptation to switch to Fallback mode, because quick googling showed me that Fallback mode will be phased out in not-so-distant future. Therefore I am using the new interface. My general impression as a user is negative. A lot of things have changed for no apparent reason, even those things which worked just fine. Why? To facilitate a more productive discussion, I will limit my rants^W feedback to one per email. So, here it goes: Where is the task bar? I am one of those guys who likes to see the bar with all running apps, so that I can find out what runs and what doesn't by simply looking at it, without any clicking and/or mouse movement. Alt-Tabbing or go-to-upper-left-corner'ing is a usability regression for me. I do understand that some people don't find it that important/useful, and they consider task bar removal a good thing which freed a bit of screen real estate. However, I am sure I am not alone. There are people who like the task bar. Since limiting the interface to only one of these choices will make a fraction of user population unhappy, and (I presume) Gnome wants to have a wide user base rather than narrow one, I propose to bring it back from the dead, but make optional. -- vda ___ gnome-shell-list mailing list gnome-shell-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-shell-list -- *Green Tackle* - *Environmentally Friendly Fishing Tackle* www.GreenTackle.com http://www.greentackle.com Email: mi...@greentackle.com Phone: 971.270.2206 Toll Free: 877.580.9165 Fax: 503.946.3106 ___ gnome-shell-list mailing list gnome-shell-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-shell-list
Slow search in Gnome-shell
Hi everyone: First thought: I installed Gnome-Shell from archlinux a few days a go, and was after a clean pc install, I tried the search ability of the shell and all looks fine, but after a while I notice it started to slow down itself. After that I update my laptop to gnome3 using gnome-shell and searching there is real pain, I've been using my laptop about 6 months or so without cleaning the recent files, so you can imagine. When the search turned out slow on my laptop I erased my recently-used files, and the search turns lightning fast, so my concerns is By the time I've been using gnome-shell for two months, I can't be able to search anything with gnome-shell, nor even apps, which can't be slower because of the files. Second thought: What about adding a third category to the dash, besides windows and apps, place a files there, like the one in Unity ? Erick -- El derecho de expresar nuestros pensamientos tiene algún significado tan sólo si somos capaces de tener pensamientos propios. El miedo a la libertad, Erich Fromm ___ gnome-shell-list mailing list gnome-shell-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-shell-list
Re: Starting an app on another workspace? [Was: GNOME 3.0 feedback and suggestions (for 3.2+)]
The specification that applications have to support is called startup-notification. http://standards.freedesktop.org/startup-notification-spec/startup-notification-latest.txt On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 9:40 AM, Adam Tauno Williams awill...@whitemice.orgwrote: On Thu, 2011-05-05 at 15:11 +0200, Milan Bouchet-Valat wrote: Le jeudi 05 mai 2011 à 09:00 -0400, Adam Tauno Williams a écrit : Huh. Should that work? I'm in the activity view, so I see the tiled apps of the current workstation, the left hand applications bar [what is the official name of that thing] and on the right hand the tiled workspaces. I grab an app and drag it to a workspace and it opens [starts] in the current workspace. Is that incorrect [something isn't working] or am I misunderstanding the above? [because that would be an awesome feature - especially for apps that take some time to start] That's currently working with GTK apps, try with Nautilus for example. But some non-GTK apps don't support this for some reason, and there's a bug open for that in Bugzilla. Yep, it appears to work for gnome-terminal and banshee. Not working for Nautilus or Evolution (but opening nautilus and evolution windows always seems odd if you already have an instance open). It doesn't work for DbVisualizer (Java app) or LibreOffice apps. ___ gnome-shell-list mailing list gnome-shell-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-shell-list ___ gnome-shell-list mailing list gnome-shell-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-shell-list
Re: Slow search in Gnome-shell
2011/5/5 Erick Pérez erick@gmail.com Hi everyone: First thought: I installed Gnome-Shell from archlinux a few days a go, and was after a clean pc install, I tried the search ability of the shell and all looks fine, but after a while I notice it started to slow down itself. After that I update my laptop to gnome3 using gnome-shell and searching there is real pain, I've been using my laptop about 6 months or so without cleaning the recent files, so you can imagine. When the search turned out slow on my laptop I erased my recently-used files, and the search turns lightning fast, so my concerns is By the time I've been using gnome-shell for two months, I can't be able to search anything with gnome-shell, nor even apps, which can't be slower because of the files. Ouch :( Do we do a linear scan of the things GtkRecentManager, looking for a string match? Hopefully we can switch over to sqlite or whatever Zeitgeist uses then. Second thought: What about adding a third category to the dash, besides windows and apps, place a files there, like the one in Unity ? This was omitted in gnome-shell 3.0 because of time constraints. This is top priority for 3.2: https://live.gnome.org/ThreePointOne/Features/FindingAndReminding Erick -- El derecho de expresar nuestros pensamientos tiene algún significado tan sólo si somos capaces de tener pensamientos propios. El miedo a la libertad, Erich Fromm ___ gnome-shell-list mailing list gnome-shell-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-shell-list ___ gnome-shell-list mailing list gnome-shell-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-shell-list
Re: Slow search in Gnome-shell
This was omitted in gnome-shell 3.0 because of time constraints. This is top priority for 3.2: https://live.gnome.org/ThreePointOne/Features/FindingAndReminding In the mean time, I'll try to write an extension for it BTW: For the developers, the performance is awesome, and the shell is super cool, except for the power-off decision (my girlfriend was looking for how to shutdown the pc for about two hours, and my mum scream at me, that raise the bar a lot for non-experienced users) Erick -- El derecho de expresar nuestros pensamientos tiene algún significado tan sólo si somos capaces de tener pensamientos propios. El miedo a la libertad, Erich Fromm ___ gnome-shell-list mailing list gnome-shell-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-shell-list
Re: Slow search in Gnome-shell
Le jeudi 05 mai 2011 à 12:24 -0400, Jasper St. Pierre a écrit : Do we do a linear scan of the things GtkRecentManager, looking for a string match? Hopefully we can switch over to sqlite or whatever Zeitgeist uses then. String matching doesn't take seconds, even on thousands of files, does it? (If that's indeed the case, the Shell could stop loading recent files after reaching some maximum...) Erick, what exact version of the Shell are you using? A bug was fixed recently about entries being created for all results, even the ones not being shown. It could be that bug. Cheers ___ gnome-shell-list mailing list gnome-shell-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-shell-list
Re: Slow search in Gnome-shell
Erick, what exact version of the Shell are you using? A bug was fixed recently about entries being created for all results, even the ones not being shown. It could be that bug. System Settings System Info Gnome Version 3.0.1 and pacman -Qi gnome-shell is: version 3.0.1 Erick -- El derecho de expresar nuestros pensamientos tiene algún significado tan sólo si somos capaces de tener pensamientos propios. El miedo a la libertad, Erich Fromm ___ gnome-shell-list mailing list gnome-shell-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-shell-list
Re: We want task bar back. Pretty please.
On Thu, 2011-05-05 at 13:05 -0400, Adam Tauno Williams wrote: Assigning a hot key for the activity view helps [I mapped Windows+Space, like GNOME-Do used to use] then if I need to I can pop in an out of that view without using the odd [I still find it odd] gesture/position scheme. Just out of curiosity - why do you change the default hot key from Super to Super+Space? Muscle memory? Florian ___ gnome-shell-list mailing list gnome-shell-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-shell-list
Re: We want task bar back. Pretty please.
On Thu, 2011-05-05 at 13:03 -0400, G. Michael Carter wrote: When F15 is release we should put this DL on auto-reply. So many of these I don't like Gnome 3 e-mails and they all end the same way. Does it ring some sort of bell when you receive 'many I don't like Gnome 3 e-mails'? The key word is many. I've seen the lack of a menu come up so many times What does it tell to a developer when he sees the same complaint coming up again and again? -- vda ___ gnome-shell-list mailing list gnome-shell-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-shell-list
Re: We want task bar back. Pretty please.
On Thu, 2011-05-05 at 19:22 +0200, Denys Vlasenko wrote: On Thu, 2011-05-05 at 13:03 -0400, G. Michael Carter wrote: When F15 is release we should put this DL on auto-reply. So many of these I don't like Gnome 3 e-mails and they all end the same way. Does it ring some sort of bell when you receive 'many I don't like Gnome 3 e-mails'? The key word is many. I've seen the lack of a menu come up so many times What does it tell to a developer when he sees the same complaint coming up again and again? That some user's don't read the documentation? That's is half a joke, and half serious. ___ gnome-shell-list mailing list gnome-shell-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-shell-list
Re: We want task bar back. Pretty please.
On Thu, 2011-05-05 at 19:17 +0200, Florian Müllner wrote: On Thu, 2011-05-05 at 13:05 -0400, Adam Tauno Williams wrote: Assigning a hot key for the activity view helps [I mapped Windows+Space, like GNOME-Do used to use] then if I need to I can pop in an out of that view without using the odd [I still find it odd] gesture/position scheme. Just out of curiosity - why do you change the default hot key from Super to Super+Space? Muscle memory? Hmmm. There was no hot-key assigned when I went into the keybindings; it was Disabled. I wasn't aware there was a default. I looked about and couldn't find documentation of the 'official' default key bindings. ___ gnome-shell-list mailing list gnome-shell-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-shell-list
Re: We want task bar back. Pretty please.
On Thu, 2011-05-05 at 13:25 -0400, Adam Tauno Williams wrote: On Thu, 2011-05-05 at 19:22 +0200, Denys Vlasenko wrote: On Thu, 2011-05-05 at 13:03 -0400, G. Michael Carter wrote: When F15 is release we should put this DL on auto-reply. So many of these I don't like Gnome 3 e-mails and they all end the same way. Does it ring some sort of bell when you receive 'many I don't like Gnome 3 e-mails'? The key word is many. I've seen the lack of a menu come up so many times What does it tell to a developer when he sees the same complaint coming up again and again? That some user's don't read the documentation? That's is half a joke, and half serious. Wrong. ___ gnome-shell-list mailing list gnome-shell-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-shell-list
Re: We want task bar back. Pretty please.
On Thu, 2011-05-05 at 13:26 -0400, Adam Tauno Williams wrote: On Thu, 2011-05-05 at 19:17 +0200, Florian Müllner wrote: On Thu, 2011-05-05 at 13:05 -0400, Adam Tauno Williams wrote: Assigning a hot key for the activity view helps [I mapped Windows+Space, like GNOME-Do used to use] then if I need to I can pop in an out of that view without using the odd [I still find it odd] gesture/position scheme. Just out of curiosity - why do you change the default hot key from Super to Super+Space? Muscle memory? Hmmm. There was no hot-key assigned when I went into the keybindings; it was Disabled. I wasn't aware there was a default. I looked about and couldn't find documentation of the 'official' default key bindings. By default, super and alt-f1 should both trigger the overview. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net ___ gnome-shell-list mailing list gnome-shell-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-shell-list
Re: We want task bar back. Pretty please.
On Thu, 2011-05-05 at 19:22 +0200, Denys Vlasenko wrote: I've seen the lack of a menu come up so many times What does it tell to a developer when he sees the same complaint coming up again and again? That negative reaction to change is common. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net ___ gnome-shell-list mailing list gnome-shell-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-shell-list
Re: We want task bar back. Pretty please.
On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 1:28 PM, Denys Vlasenko dvlas...@redhat.com wrote: On Thu, 2011-05-05 at 13:25 -0400, Adam Tauno Williams wrote: On Thu, 2011-05-05 at 19:22 +0200, Denys Vlasenko wrote: On Thu, 2011-05-05 at 13:03 -0400, G. Michael Carter wrote: When F15 is release we should put this DL on auto-reply. So many of these I don't like Gnome 3 e-mails and they all end the same way. Does it ring some sort of bell when you receive 'many I don't like Gnome 3 e-mails'? The key word is many. I've seen the lack of a menu come up so many times What does it tell to a developer when he sees the same complaint coming up again and again? Means we're only seeing part of the story?How many people are complaining on this list because they like Gnome 3? There are just as many people who like the current layout. The fact it keeps coming up again and again means people just can't let go or are close minded? That some user's don't read the documentation? That's is half a joke, and half serious. Wrong. Well right, in my opinion, as far as the don't read. This discussion is in the archives of this list many many times. Why does it have to come up again? [?] ___ gnome-shell-list mailing list gnome-shell-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-shell-list 330.gif___ gnome-shell-list mailing list gnome-shell-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-shell-list
Re: We want task bar back. Pretty please.
On Thu, 2011-05-05 at 10:31 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote: On Thu, 2011-05-05 at 19:22 +0200, Denys Vlasenko wrote: I've seen the lack of a menu come up so many times What does it tell to a developer when he sees the same complaint coming up again and again? That negative reaction to change is common. I have to agree here. It always happen. ___ gnome-shell-list mailing list gnome-shell-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-shell-list
Re: We want task bar back. Pretty please.
Damn it gnome 3 developers. Because of you I'm getting work done faster and spending less time dicking around with my computer everyday. I know your thinking oh well we did our job then Well maybe you did it a little too well. What would have normally taken me all day is getting done in two hours. So now i just sit at my computer most of the day staring at it trying to look busy so my boss will leave me alone. There, now you have someone complaining about how much better gnome-shell is. Foor On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 1:36 PM, G. Michael Carter mi...@carterfamily.cawrote: On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 1:28 PM, Denys Vlasenko dvlas...@redhat.comwrote: On Thu, 2011-05-05 at 13:25 -0400, Adam Tauno Williams wrote: On Thu, 2011-05-05 at 19:22 +0200, Denys Vlasenko wrote: On Thu, 2011-05-05 at 13:03 -0400, G. Michael Carter wrote: When F15 is release we should put this DL on auto-reply. So many of these I don't like Gnome 3 e-mails and they all end the same way. Does it ring some sort of bell when you receive 'many I don't like Gnome 3 e-mails'? The key word is many. I've seen the lack of a menu come up so many times What does it tell to a developer when he sees the same complaint coming up again and again? Means we're only seeing part of the story?How many people are complaining on this list because they like Gnome 3? There are just as many people who like the current layout. The fact it keeps coming up again and again means people just can't let go or are close minded? That some user's don't read the documentation? That's is half a joke, and half serious. Wrong. Well right, in my opinion, as far as the don't read. This discussion is in the archives of this list many many times. Why does it have to come up again? [?] ___ gnome-shell-list mailing list gnome-shell-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-shell-list ___ gnome-shell-list mailing list gnome-shell-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-shell-list 330.gif___ gnome-shell-list mailing list gnome-shell-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-shell-list
Re: We want task bar back. Pretty please.
On Thu, 2011-05-05 at 10:31 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote: On Thu, 2011-05-05 at 19:22 +0200, Denys Vlasenko wrote: I've seen the lack of a menu come up so many times What does it tell to a developer when he sees the same complaint coming up again and again? That negative reaction to change is common. To a needless change - sure. A few examples I recently saw. Mignight Commander changed the order of the Save? [Yes] [No] [Continue editing] buttons in the editor exit dialog. One my colleague was bitching like a sailor after he lost his 20th edit - because his hands remember that to save file, press esc,left arrow,enter, but now this sequence does exit WITHOUT saving! New Firefox's right click menu order changed from (1) Open in new Window (2) Open in new Tab to the opposite one - I am opening new windows instead of new tabs for the third day in a row. WTF?! Why was it changed? For what purpose? -- vda ___ gnome-shell-list mailing list gnome-shell-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-shell-list
RE: We want task bar back. Pretty please.
Subject: Re: We want task bar back. Pretty please. From: dvlas...@redhat.com To: awill...@redhat.com Date: Thu, 5 May 2011 19:47:47 +0200 CC: gnome-shell-list@gnome.org On Thu, 2011-05-05 at 10:31 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote: On Thu, 2011-05-05 at 19:22 +0200, Denys Vlasenko wrote: I've seen the lack of a menu come up so many times What does it tell to a developer when he sees the same complaint coming up again and again? That negative reaction to change is common. To a needless change - sure. A few examples I recently saw. Mignight Commander changed the order of the Save? [Yes] [No] [Continue editing] buttons in the editor exit dialog. One my colleague was bitching like a sailor after he lost his 20th edit - because his hands remember that to save file, press esc,left arrow,enter, but now this sequence does exit WITHOUT saving! New Firefox's right click menu order changed from (1) Open in new Window (2) Open in new Tab to the opposite one - I am opening new windows instead of new tabs for the third day in a row. WTF?! Why was it changed? For what purpose? I don't know about midnight commander, but I do know the reasoning for Firefox. It was seen that more users open links in new tabs instead of new windows, much like yourself. Therefore Open in new Tab was put first to reduce mouse movement and make the more common action quicker. ___ gnome-shell-list mailing list gnome-shell-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-shell-list
Re: We want task bar back. Pretty please.
On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 8:57 AM, Denys Vlasenko dvlas...@redhat.com wrote: Is it a policy of Gnome Desktop to shoehorn users into fixed UI style instead of offering them reasonable choice? What next, hardwired window title color and size? -- There is no policy as such. As I said earlier, why not try it first and see how it works before criticizing the design? I'm a systems administrator I have a ton of windows open, I used to use the taskbar, and I don' and it's been okay for me. While something was taken away, another method was added that hopefully will be better than what you had before. It does require that you keep an open mind and try it. There are plenty of people who have similar anecdotes. sri ___ gnome-shell-list mailing list gnome-shell-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-shell-list
Re: We want task bar back. Pretty please.
I keep doing that... forgetting to hit reply-all, let's try again: Here's a thought. What about a dialog welcome box for the first users. (have a check box to go away forever) Then have links or info on how to use Gnome 3? Maybe a video giving a quick tutorial? Tips of the day? Then it eliminates the need to google for anything. On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 1:48 PM, Micah Carrick mi...@greentackle.com wrote: I'll give you a quick answer to that... When we first switch to GNOME 3, many of us did not realize we were not upgrading, but switching to a completely new beast. I actually had to take a day off work to comb the internet learning about what's going on and why (we aren't all in the loop with GNOME Journal and Planet GNOME and the like). GNOME 3 is a radical shift away from what we are used to. So we do a few Google searches and we find a much larger percentage of un-resolved complaints and the same ones over and over. It gives the impression the the core team has not answered (which of course is not the case) or does not care about what *we* think (we being the existing user-base and power users). It can be difficult to navigate through the GNOME Wiki. The point I am making is that while this list has answered some of these same questions and complaints over and over and over--the unanswered posts and blogs seem to drown out the answers. There is a lot of information to sort through. I think some more work can be done on FAQ and that the marketing could do more to reach out to existing GNOME user-base. On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 10:36 AM, G. Michael Carter mi...@carterfamily.cawrote: On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 1:28 PM, Denys Vlasenko dvlas...@redhat.comwrote: On Thu, 2011-05-05 at 13:25 -0400, Adam Tauno Williams wrote: On Thu, 2011-05-05 at 19:22 +0200, Denys Vlasenko wrote: On Thu, 2011-05-05 at 13:03 -0400, G. Michael Carter wrote: When F15 is release we should put this DL on auto-reply. So many of these I don't like Gnome 3 e-mails and they all end the same way. Does it ring some sort of bell when you receive 'many I don't like Gnome 3 e-mails'? The key word is many. I've seen the lack of a menu come up so many times What does it tell to a developer when he sees the same complaint coming up again and again? Means we're only seeing part of the story?How many people are complaining on this list because they like Gnome 3? There are just as many people who like the current layout. The fact it keeps coming up again and again means people just can't let go or are close minded? That some user's don't read the documentation? That's is half a joke, and half serious. Wrong. Well right, in my opinion, as far as the don't read. This discussion is in the archives of this list many many times. Why does it have to come up again? [?] ___ gnome-shell-list mailing list gnome-shell-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-shell-list ___ gnome-shell-list mailing list gnome-shell-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-shell-list -- *Green Tackle* - *Environmentally Friendly Fishing Tackle* www.GreenTackle.com http://www.greentackle.com Email: mi...@greentackle.com Phone: 971.270.2206 Toll Free: 877.580.9165 Fax: 503.946.3106 330.gif___ gnome-shell-list mailing list gnome-shell-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-shell-list
Re: We want task bar back. Pretty please.
On Thu, 2011-05-05 at 10:48 -0700, Micah Carrick wrote: I'll give you a quick answer to that... When we first switch to GNOME 3, many of us did not realize we were not upgrading, but switching to a completely new beast. I actually had to take a day off work to comb the internet learning about what's going on and why (we aren't all in the loop with GNOME Journal and Planet GNOME and the like). GNOME 3 is a radical shift away from what we are used to. Yes, it is. It is revolutionary. And I believe that GNOME3-is-a-big-change was very heavily publicized. So we do a few Google searches and we find a much larger percentage of un-resolved complaints and the same ones over and over. Of course - search on *anything* and this is true; it is the nature of the beast. People post complaints, they don't post works awesome (because the are busy using whatever it is). In my experience positive posts are often taken as counter productive. This approach to measuring is right up there is counting bugs - sophisticated or popular software has so many *more* bug reports than other software. Of course. It gives the impression the the core team has not answered (which of course is not the case) or does not care about what *we* think (we being the existing user-base and power users). Doesn't give me that impression at all. Decisions were discussed, and made. The point I am making is that while this list has answered some of these same questions and complaints over and over and over--the unanswered posts and blogs seem to drown out the answers. And they always always will. Nature of the beast. This weekend I intend to spend some time writing a very positive BLOG post about GNOME3. There is a lot of information to sort through. I think some more work can be done on FAQ and that the marketing could do more to reach out to existing GNOME user-base. ___ gnome-shell-list mailing list gnome-shell-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-shell-list
Re: We want task bar back. Pretty please.
On 5 May 2011 18:55, Adam Tauno Williams awill...@whitemice.org wrote: On Thu, 2011-05-05 at 10:48 -0700, Micah Carrick wrote: I'll give you a quick answer to that... When we first switch to GNOME 3, many of us did not realize we were not upgrading, but switching to a completely new beast. I actually had to take a day off work to comb the internet learning about what's going on and why (we aren't all in the loop with GNOME Journal and Planet GNOME and the like). GNOME 3 is a radical shift away from what we are used to. Yes, it is. It is revolutionary. And I believe that GNOME3-is-a-big-change was very heavily publicized. So we do a few Google searches and we find a much larger percentage of un-resolved complaints and the same ones over and over. Of course - search on *anything* and this is true; it is the nature of the beast. People post complaints, they don't post works awesome (because the are busy using whatever it is). In my experience positive posts are often taken as counter productive. There are hidden negatives too - the linux users in my office, for example, tried it and gave up or gave it no chance at all - they are using XFCE or just not updating their distros or are trying out Ubuntu instead or they are using the fallback for the moment now that they have found out how to do it. They haven't emailed this list though. Regards, Tim -- You could help some brave and decent people to have access to uncensored news by making a donation at: http://www.thezimbabwean.co.uk/ ___ gnome-shell-list mailing list gnome-shell-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-shell-list
Re: We want task bar back. Pretty please.
On Thu, 2011-05-05 at 10:48 -0700, Micah Carrick wrote: I'll give you a quick answer to that... When we first switch to GNOME 3, many of us did not realize we were not upgrading, but switching to a completely new beast. This is ...interesting. Perhaps in new release of busybox I'll switch dd from if=FILE of=FILE syntax to -i FILE -o FILE one. And of course, I will make sure old way doesn't work. I bet my users would *love* that. This new syntax is more consistent, more UNIX-like, etc... And stupid old-hatters can go screw themselves. Right? So we do a few Google searches and we find a much larger percentage of un-resolved complaints and the same ones over and over. It gives the impression the the core team has not answered (which of course is not the case) or does not care about what *we* think (we being the existing user-base and power users). It can be difficult to navigate through the GNOME Wiki. The point I am making is that while this list has answered some of these same questions and complaints over and over and over--the unanswered posts and blogs seem to drown out the answers. There is a lot of information to sort through. Yes, when you get many complaints about something, one possibility is bad or misplaced documentation. Another possibility is that they do see a problem which is not apparent to the developer. Example: Recently, one user complained that DHCP client I maintain sends packets with secs field set to 0. I read the RFC and it basically says that the rationale behind this field proved to be dubious and this field can be set to 0. So I told the user that this is not a bug, and in order to keep things simpler, I'm going to leave it as-is. Then a month later another user again complained about the same thing. This rang a bell for me. Something is fishy here. One pedantic idiot insisting on filling up this field is imaginable, but two? I asked for details. BINGO! It _is_ a real problem, because Mac OS has an idiotic DHCP server which can be configured to answer only to the packets with secs = CONFIGURABLE_NUMBER, and worse, by default this CONFIGURABLE_NUMBER is not 0, but 2!!! Thus, my DHCP client never works when DHCP server runs on Mac OS! I think some more work can be done on FAQ and that the marketing could do more to reach out to existing GNOME user-base. I don't see how improving docs will allow me to find or open IRC window in tho operations: look at the screen bottom... click there, or click icon in the top bar. It simply doesn't work anymore. For some unfathomable reason, app icons in the top bar are nuked too. Moreover, the space where they sat IS NOT REUSED FOR ANYTHING, it is just empty now. I don't get it. Why?? -- vda ___ gnome-shell-list mailing list gnome-shell-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-shell-list
Re: We want task bar back. Pretty please.
On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 11:13 AM, Tim Murphy tnmur...@gmail.com wrote: On 5 May 2011 18:55, Adam Tauno Williams awill...@whitemice.org wrote: On Thu, 2011-05-05 at 10:48 -0700, Micah Carrick wrote: I'll give you a quick answer to that... When we first switch to GNOME 3, many of us did not realize we were not upgrading, but switching to a completely new beast. I actually had to take a day off work to comb the internet learning about what's going on and why (we aren't all in the loop with GNOME Journal and Planet GNOME and the like). GNOME 3 is a radical shift away from what we are used to. Yes, it is. It is revolutionary. And I believe that GNOME3-is-a-big-change was very heavily publicized. So we do a few Google searches and we find a much larger percentage of un-resolved complaints and the same ones over and over. Of course - search on *anything* and this is true; it is the nature of the beast. People post complaints, they don't post works awesome (because the are busy using whatever it is). In my experience positive posts are often taken as counter productive. There are hidden negatives too - the linux users in my office, for example, tried it and gave up or gave it no chance at all - they are using XFCE or just not updating their distros or are trying out Ubuntu instead or they are using the fallback for the moment now that they have found out how to do it. They haven't emailed this list though. Is their objection that it is different? Office workers are generally vulnerable to change. The reason being that they don't copious amount of time to learn a new interface in the face of deadlines and what not. A transition plan is generally required for those.. so they get a chance to learn the new interface while at the same time be able to switch back in case there are issues with bad behaviour with important applications. My co-workers don't particularly like the new interface just from the presentation I did (they were my guinea pigs). But then these people are people who use fvwm2 over VNC on windows laptops or desktops. sri ___ gnome-shell-list mailing list gnome-shell-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-shell-list
Re: We want task bar back. Pretty please.
On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 11:29 AM, Denys Vlasenko dvlas...@redhat.com wrote: On Thu, 2011-05-05 at 10:08 -0700, Sriram Ramkrishna wrote: On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 8:57 AM, Denys Vlasenko dvlas...@redhat.com wrote: Is it a policy of Gnome Desktop to shoehorn users into fixed UI style instead of offering them reasonable choice? What next, hardwired window title color and size? There is no policy as such. As I said earlier, why not try it first and see how it works before criticizing the design? I'm a systems administrator I have a ton of windows open, I used to use the taskbar, and I don' and it's been okay for me. While something was taken away, Why something has to be taken away? I mean, unconditionally? There is a better way: (a) make it configurable, (b) make it off by default. If almost no one switches it back on, great, it means practice proved that the replacement is better, and it can be removed altogether. If many people switch it back on, then perhaps it needs to stay. The default configuration is bare.. it's been like that even with GNOME 2. Your distro puts a bunch of stuff in there to enhance the experience. It's relatively the same with GNOME 3. As someone mentioned earlier, there are extensions that can put a taskbar on your screen or you can use any number of third party apps like Docky or AWN that can give you similar features. My GNOME 3 setup still runs docky because there are some things that GNOME 3 doesn't provide that I require. You're not going to get the perfect desktop from just the default setup. A combination of extensions, and third party apps and I'm a happy camper. So somethings that you might be taken away, in favour of something better. However, there are applications, extensions, a tweak tool will put back most of the experience back. The point though is that you should try it for a week as is. You might learn something. If there is something you're missing then discuss it here. sri ___ gnome-shell-list mailing list gnome-shell-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-shell-list
Re: We want task bar back. Pretty please.
On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 10:22 AM, Denys Vlasenko dvlas...@redhat.com wrote: On Thu, 2011-05-05 at 13:03 -0400, G. Michael Carter wrote: When F15 is release we should put this DL on auto-reply. So many of these I don't like Gnome 3 e-mails and they all end the same way. Does it ring some sort of bell when you receive 'many I don't like Gnome 3 e-mails'? The key word is many. I've seen the lack of a menu come up so many times What does it tell to a developer when he sees the same complaint coming up again and again? I think the point is that many people do initially complain but after test driving for a a length of time end up actually liking it after they adapt. We do get a lot of complaints but people do end up liking it. It does mean that you need to honestly look at your workflow and see if you can adapt. sri ___ gnome-shell-list mailing list gnome-shell-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-shell-list
Visualization ideas for starting applications
Hello guys! Inspired by Starting an app on another workspace I got some ideas. The following should be understood as design ideas without any idea of how to implement them. At the moment you can drag an application to a target workspace and then you have to wait until the application is loaded and the main window appears before you can do further adjustments to the application window's size and position. Introducing a dummy window could solve this and would bring some further improvements. These would be: * The dummy window (DW) As soon as the application icon is dropped a dummy window (DW) appears. It has window decorations, close button and maybe a large icon of the application as a place holder in the main area. * Visual feedback From initiating the application start until the actual application appears, there is highly visible feedback saying this application window will soon appear here on this workspace. (Even better than the dummy task-button in the taskbar of other OSs. ;-)) * Resizing The DW has the size the application had before closing. It can be resized and repositioned before the actual application is loaded. If the old size is not available a standard size will be used. * Abort loading The application loading could be aborted before the main window appears. Very useful when accidently starting a very large application. * Failing If the application fails to start, a message appears in the DW's main window. Maybe retry, console output or other useful stuff can be offered. * Workspace handling If the application is dragged to the empty workspace the DW can set the workspace to be used and initiate creating a new empty workspace. What do you think about these ideas? Are there some drawbacks in a matter of design? Is there already some work/thinking going on into this direction? Any comments would be appreciated. ___ gnome-shell-list mailing list gnome-shell-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-shell-list
Re: We want task bar back. Pretty please.
On Thu, 2011-05-05 at 20:29 +0200, Denys Vlasenko wrote: I'm a systems administrator I have a ton of windows open, I used to use the taskbar, and I don' and it's been okay for me. While something was taken away, Why something has to be taken away? I mean, unconditionally? There is a better way: (a) make it configurable, (b) make it off by default. If almost no one switches it back on, great, it means practice proved that the replacement is better, and it can be removed altogether. Or (c) install a task switcher, as has already been pointed out. ___ gnome-shell-list mailing list gnome-shell-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-shell-list
Re: We want task bar back. Pretty please.
On 5 May 2011 19:29, Sriram Ramkrishna s...@ramkrishna.me wrote: On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 11:13 AM, Tim Murphy tnmur...@gmail.com wrote: There are hidden negatives too - the linux users in my office, for example, tried it and gave up or gave it no chance at all - they are using XFCE or just not updating their distros or are trying out Ubuntu instead or they are using the fallback for the moment now that they have found out how to do it. They haven't emailed this list though. Is their objection that it is different? Office workers are generally vulnerable to change. The reason being that they don't copious amount of time to learn a new interface in the face of deadlines and what not. A transition plan is generally required for those.. so they get a chance to learn the new interface while at the same time be able to switch back in case there are issues with bad behaviour with important applications. No, they are software engineers who go out of their way to use Linux in a fairly Linux hostile environment because it builds their code faster than when they were building on windows (cross compilation for mobile devices) and because they find it a better day-by-day environment. I would say that their resistance to change is fairly minimal as they started trying out gnome-shell before it was the default and before I did, actually. It was rejected then by choice because they could try it out as an option and they removed it. But you guys can't watch what everyone does, obviously. In any case, there is a lot of reliance on the inability to change argument and it does remind me of how people at my work used to defend what is now an infamous product worldwide against the competition that has recently slaughtered it. Basically they thought that a lot of explaining would help and they had a reason why every complaint was invalid or was important or why it was unavoidable for some other reason. I think that instant delight is the kind of reaction that you actually need to have in something that you are selling and just because the gnome shell is not being sold doesn't mean that it doesn't matter. My co-workers don't particularly like the new interface just from the presentation I did (they were my guinea pigs). But then these people are people who use fvwm2 over VNC on windows laptops or desktops. Well there I was thinking that people who wanted to use fvwm were missing out because GNOME with Nautilus was really rather slick and that speed was not so relevant anymore as it was when I had a much less powerful computer. But now I'm in worse position than them with a way of organising my life that was friendly seeming being about to disappear. I cannot now make the new thing do what I could do before which, in my case, was to create a kind of substitute user interface that suited me using my desktop and shortcuts on the panel. 98% of the applets that were out there were of no interest but a couple of them were very useful to me in particular. I have used a lot of GUIs from GEM (ST and PC), Geos, Amigas, RiscOS, one my pal designed, NextStep, The Mac, OpenDesktop etc etc. There are innovative concepts that have not made it to Linux yet even though they are years old. I don't really believe that revolutionary is a word that can be applied here to the change in the user experience and that's why the changes are contentious - they are not really amazingly good enough to make up for the disruption (to some of us). Having said all that I look forward to investigating the extension mechanism to see how much I might be able to make things right and also to trying out the ROX Desktop once more :-). Regards, Tim --- You could help some brave and decent people to have access to uncensored news by making a donation at: http://www.thezimbabwean.co.uk/ ___ gnome-shell-list mailing list gnome-shell-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-shell-list
Re: We want task bar back. Pretty please.
On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 1:02 PM, Tim Murphy tnmur...@gmail.com wrote: On 5 May 2011 19:29, Sriram Ramkrishna s...@ramkrishna.me wrote: On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 11:13 AM, Tim Murphy tnmur...@gmail.com wrote: There are hidden negatives too - the linux users in my office, for example, tried it and gave up or gave it no chance at all - they are using XFCE or just not updating their distros or are trying out Ubuntu instead or they are using the fallback for the moment now that they have found out how to do it. They haven't emailed this list though. Is their objection that it is different? Office workers are generally vulnerable to change. The reason being that they don't copious amount of time to learn a new interface in the face of deadlines and what not. A transition plan is generally required for those.. so they get a chance to learn the new interface while at the same time be able to switch back in case there are issues with bad behaviour with important applications. No, they are software engineers who go out of their way to use Linux in a fairly Linux hostile environment because it builds their code faster than when they were building on windows (cross compilation for mobile devices) and because they find it a better day-by-day environment. I would say that their resistance to change is fairly minimal as they started trying out gnome-shell before it was the default and before I did, actually. It was rejected then by choice because they could try it out as an option and they removed it. But you guys can't watch what everyone does, obviously. Yes, similar to why I use Linux as a desktop in a windows centric world. We work with linux all the time as a batch farm. Going between windows and linux was always awkward and so when I aligned what I do at work with was on my desktop I was more efficient. Perhaps they can try a live cd now and see if it works again? In any case, there is a lot of reliance on the inability to change argument and it does remind me of how people at my work used to defend what is now an infamous product worldwide against the competition that has recently slaughtered it. Basically they thought that a lot of explaining would help and they had a reason why every complaint was invalid or was important or why it was unavoidable for some other reason. You will notice that my arguments did not implicitly say that you're afraid to change. It is in fact the wrong argument to tell someone that they are afraid to change because it puts them on the defensive like somehow something is wrong with that and by extension something is wrong with you. I always push for try it for a week or try it for ten days. Design choices aren't apparent at first glance until you start employing your muscle memory. People adapt at different rates. Some people as you further below say will suddenly be delighted, otherwise are trying to use the muscle memory from a previous version and find it difficult to cope. The week sink period is to give people time to figure out and play around like you would with any new item you get. The difference is that you're sink time should be on a computer that you're not using for work or something that requires real work to be done as you'll just induce stress. I think that instant delight is the kind of reaction that you actually need to have in something that you are selling and just because the gnome shell is not being sold doesn't mean that it doesn't matter. instant delight is not something that easily happens. Someone's instant delight is someone else nightmare. There are plenty of people if you read the GNOME facebook page that express delight like that. There are a smaller number that have a wtf reaction. You'll never get a universal reaction that way. The sink time helps in adapt or people. My co-workers don't particularly like the new interface just from the presentation I did (they were my guinea pigs). But then these people are people who use fvwm2 over VNC on windows laptops or desktops. Well there I was thinking that people who wanted to use fvwm were missing out because GNOME with Nautilus was really rather slick and that speed was not so relevant anymore as it was when I had a much less powerful computer. But now I'm in worse position than them with a way of organising my life that was friendly seeming being about to disappear. I cannot now make the new thing do what I could do before In this particular case, you should make a switch until you are mentally ready to try something new. GNOME 3 should be installed on a separate partition something to play with until you've used it enough that you're ready to mentally accept the new interface or when extensions and new features gives you the notification to want to do change. which, in my case, was to create a kind of substitute user interface that suited me using my desktop and shortcuts on the panel. 98% of the
Re: We want task bar back. Pretty please.
Boy i wish I read my responses more carefully.. my English is generally better than this :P sri On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 1:26 PM, Sriram Ramkrishna s...@ramkrishna.me wrote: On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 1:02 PM, Tim Murphy tnmur...@gmail.com wrote: On 5 May 2011 19:29, Sriram Ramkrishna s...@ramkrishna.me wrote: On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 11:13 AM, Tim Murphy tnmur...@gmail.com wrote: There are hidden negatives too - the linux users in my office, for example, tried it and gave up or gave it no chance at all - they are using XFCE or just not updating their distros or are trying out Ubuntu instead or they are using the fallback for the moment now that they have found out how to do it. They haven't emailed this list though. Is their objection that it is different? Office workers are generally vulnerable to change. The reason being that they don't copious amount of time to learn a new interface in the face of deadlines and what not. A transition plan is generally required for those.. so they get a chance to learn the new interface while at the same time be able to switch back in case there are issues with bad behaviour with important applications. No, they are software engineers who go out of their way to use Linux in a fairly Linux hostile environment because it builds their code faster than when they were building on windows (cross compilation for mobile devices) and because they find it a better day-by-day environment. I would say that their resistance to change is fairly minimal as they started trying out gnome-shell before it was the default and before I did, actually. It was rejected then by choice because they could try it out as an option and they removed it. But you guys can't watch what everyone does, obviously. Yes, similar to why I use Linux as a desktop in a windows centric world. We work with linux all the time as a batch farm. Going between windows and linux was always awkward and so when I aligned what I do at work with was on my desktop I was more efficient. Perhaps they can try a live cd now and see if it works again? In any case, there is a lot of reliance on the inability to change argument and it does remind me of how people at my work used to defend what is now an infamous product worldwide against the competition that has recently slaughtered it. Basically they thought that a lot of explaining would help and they had a reason why every complaint was invalid or was important or why it was unavoidable for some other reason. You will notice that my arguments did not implicitly say that you're afraid to change. It is in fact the wrong argument to tell someone that they are afraid to change because it puts them on the defensive like somehow something is wrong with that and by extension something is wrong with you. I always push for try it for a week or try it for ten days. Design choices aren't apparent at first glance until you start employing your muscle memory. People adapt at different rates. Some people as you further below say will suddenly be delighted, otherwise are trying to use the muscle memory from a previous version and find it difficult to cope. The week sink period is to give people time to figure out and play around like you would with any new item you get. The difference is that you're sink time should be on a computer that you're not using for work or something that requires real work to be done as you'll just induce stress. I think that instant delight is the kind of reaction that you actually need to have in something that you are selling and just because the gnome shell is not being sold doesn't mean that it doesn't matter. instant delight is not something that easily happens. Someone's instant delight is someone else nightmare. There are plenty of people if you read the GNOME facebook page that express delight like that. There are a smaller number that have a wtf reaction. You'll never get a universal reaction that way. The sink time helps in adapt or people. My co-workers don't particularly like the new interface just from the presentation I did (they were my guinea pigs). But then these people are people who use fvwm2 over VNC on windows laptops or desktops. Well there I was thinking that people who wanted to use fvwm were missing out because GNOME with Nautilus was really rather slick and that speed was not so relevant anymore as it was when I had a much less powerful computer. But now I'm in worse position than them with a way of organising my life that was friendly seeming being about to disappear. I cannot now make the new thing do what I could do before In this particular case, you should make a switch until you are mentally ready to try something new. GNOME 3 should be installed on a separate partition something to play with until you've used it enough that you're ready to mentally accept the new interface or when extensions and
Re: We want task bar back. Pretty please.
On 5 May 2011 21:44, Sriram Ramkrishna s...@ramkrishna.me wrote: Boy i wish I read my responses more carefully.. my English is generally better than this :P sri Please don't worry on my account - my fingers tend to write whole words that my brain did not specify or miss out ones that it did and I am quite shocked when I re-read my own messages. I also want to say thank you for your reply - I feel listened to and it might be pathetic of me to like that but it makes all the difference. Regards, Tim -- You could help some brave and decent people to have access to uncensored news by making a donation at: http://www.thezimbabwean.co.uk/ ___ gnome-shell-list mailing list gnome-shell-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-shell-list
Re: We want task bar back. Pretty please.
On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 1:58 PM, Tim Murphy tnmur...@gmail.com wrote: On 5 May 2011 21:44, Sriram Ramkrishna s...@ramkrishna.me wrote: Boy i wish I read my responses more carefully.. my English is generally better than this :P sri Please don't worry on my account - my fingers tend to write whole words that my brain did not specify or miss out ones that it did and I am quite shocked when I re-read my own messages. I also want to say thank you for your reply - I feel listened to and it might be pathetic of me to like that but it makes all the difference. Part of GNOME 3 is a new attitude. Our community outreach from GNOME 1 to GNOME 2 was poor to non-existent and suffered from it to some extent. Consider 3.0 to not be only be a better desktop but a better attitude. sri ___ gnome-shell-list mailing list gnome-shell-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-shell-list
Managing Extensions.
I was just going to suggest a extension manager in the system tools area... then thought... I guess we already have one for enable/disabling gnome-shell-extensions. It's called PackageKit. ___ gnome-shell-list mailing list gnome-shell-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-shell-list
Re: We want task bar back. Pretty please.
Somebody needs to take this thread out back behind the shed and put a bullet through it's head for the good of humanity, so I volunteer to do so. Denys, GNOME 3 is a radical change and you have a right to be upset, but your responses have been rather rude. Asserting that the designers made the change for no reason insults their intelligence; just because you didn't read the design documents/pages that outlined what problems GNOME 3 would fix with it's design doesn't mean that they changed for the sake of it. As Henry Ford allegedly said, If I had asked my customers what they wanted, they would have said a faster horse.. The automobile was awkward and totally different at first relative to horses, but it eventually caught on because it was a better choice than horses for most people. Second, imitation isn't always the way to go. If GNOME simply stood the same for years without changing, there would be no innovation. In addition, your claim that GNOME gives users no choice is incredibly false: you can enable Forced Fallback mode in System Settings to a GNOME 2-like UI which is meant for setups that cannot run the new GNOME 3. However, it's called Fallback Mode for a reason; it's deprecated, won't receive future updates unless they're extremely important, and GNOME 3's default desktop is much better for a variety of reasons. I, as well as the people working on developing and marketing GNOME 3, firmly believe that GNOME 3 is the future, which is a good thing and not bad like you suggest. You can switch windows with Alt+Tab and Alt+[key above Tab, usually `], the former switching applications and the latter switching windows in an application. It works very well and you should try it! Also, switching windows is much more flexible than in GNOME 2: with the older GNOME, you only had Alt+Tab and a tiny window list. With GNOME 3, you get an Exposé-like view where you have nice, easily clickable thumbnails of every window on that workspace (especially useful on a laptop), fling gesture support to switch workspaces on touch devices, a dock-like window list on the left, a workspace switcher on the right with drag-drop support, and a search bar that works without clicking it; just start typing! If that doesn't satisfy you, I'm not sure what will. Of course, you can always write an extension that enables the behavior you like, but GNOME 3 should be given a fair chance first. You can access the Activities overlay three ways: a hot corner (flinging your mouse to the top-left), clicking the Activities button, or a keyboard shortcut (Windows/Super/Meta key, Alt+F1, or whatever you set it to). I use the keyboard shortcut as it makes it much faster for me. I just tap it, click the window I want, and I've switched in less than a second, arguably about as fast as the task list on GNOME 2 (and in some cases faster because you don't have to scan a tiny list of windows like in GNOME 2). Your claim that GNOME doesn't let you add launchers is also false: right-click any running application (or any application in the Applications menu or Search function) and click Add to Favorites. Then, just open the overlay and click it to launch. It's just as easy as the icons from GNOME 2, and they take up less screen space as well since they don't take up valuable panel real-estate. You can also manually organize them by dragging them up and down, which is much better than right-clicking the launcher, unlocking it, right-clicking it again, clicking move, then moving the mouse along a gigantic panel to place it in a usable place (this was the GNOME 2 behavior). Also, it's faster to start an application that you didn't add to favorites in GNOME 2; just search for it by opening the overlay and typing. It's keyboard-navigable so you can press up and down to move through the list. The Applications Menu isn't really intended to be used constantly and is only there for when you either don't know an application's name, don't have it on your favorites list, or are using a touch-device (like a tablet). If you have any more problems with GNOME 3, please say so, but don't be rude about it. Also, check out gnome-tweak-tool and gnome-shell-extensions for some tweaks that let you customize GNOME 3 to how you want it to be. I hope I've helped make things more clear, and it would be very nice if you tried to wrap your head around the way things are now before going back to Fallback Mode. It might take a day, or even a week, but you might find that it improves your work flow a lot if you give it a chance. - Sincerely, Ryan (not a Shell developer; just a user) ___ gnome-shell-list mailing list gnome-shell-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-shell-list
Re: Managing Extensions.
On Thu, 2011-05-05 at 17:06 -0400, G. Michael Carter wrote: I was just going to suggest a extension manager in the system tools area... then thought... I guess we already have one for enable/disabling gnome-shell-extensions. It's called PackageKit. Chances are high that I will add a UI for disabling / installing user extensions in gnome-tweak-tool for the next release (3.0.4) John ___ gnome-shell-list mailing list gnome-shell-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-shell-list ___ gnome-shell-list mailing list gnome-shell-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-shell-list
Re: on suspend
On Wednesday, 04 May, 2011 09:53 PM, Olav Vitters wrote: If suspend does not work: 1. The hardware/kernel/whatever should not advertise it as such I've already outlined a way to detect such cases and override it 2. The bug*has* to be reported and get fixed Suspend is basically a repeat of: - NetworkManager - PulseAudio There should be no blah blah on this matter if the Turn Off thingy is available. I have no GNOME Shell at the moment, but it would be nice if we hover the mouse cursor over Suspend and then it will show a pop-up notification for the user for him to get informed on what other options are available - like Press Alt key to turn off. Regards, Allan ___ gnome-shell-list mailing list gnome-shell-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-shell-list
Re: on suspend
On Wednesday, 04 May, 2011 09:57 PM, Bidossessi SODONON wrote: I believe that in Vista as well, the shutdown button was relegated to a less accessible position in favour of Suspend. I agree that it makes more sense for laptop users than desktops, but suspend being the next best thing to the fabled fast-boot, it (suspend) does need to be fixed; but not by Gnome. Why should we emulate Vista or any Windows version especially on power management? At least it is still available without summoning another key. I believe GNOME should care for application compatibilities like what one poster here who complained about his 3D application not working in GNOME Shell, rather than the power management side of things which is basically the task of Linux kernel developers! Regards, Allan ___ gnome-shell-list mailing list gnome-shell-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-shell-list
Re: We want task bar back. Pretty please.
On Friday, 06 May, 2011 02:37 AM, Sriram Ramkrishna wrote: As someone mentioned earlier, there are extensions that can put a taskbar on your screen or you can use any number of third party apps like Docky or AWN that can give you similar features. My GNOME 3 setup still runs docky because there are some things that GNOME 3 doesn't provide that I require. You're not going to get the perfect desktop from just the default setup. A combination of extensions, and third party apps and I'm a happy camper. This is not something you need if you run Windows or OS X. But I understand. Regards, Allan ___ gnome-shell-list mailing list gnome-shell-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-shell-list
Re: We want task bar back. Pretty please.
On Fri, 2011-05-06 at 08:01 +0800, Allan E. Registos wrote: On Friday, 06 May, 2011 01:54 AM, G. Michael Carter wrote: That's the best thing to do and will certainly reduced people complaining the same thing (No taskbar, no min/max, no power-off, crap notifications, etc.) Eh? Seriously? Have you seen http://www.gnome3.org/. There you go - videos. ___ gnome-shell-list mailing list gnome-shell-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-shell-list
Re: We want task bar back. Pretty please.
On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 9:44 PM, Adam Tauno Williams awill...@whitemice.orgwrote: On Fri, 2011-05-06 at 08:01 +0800, Allan E. Registos wrote: On Friday, 06 May, 2011 01:54 AM, G. Michael Carter wrote: That's the best thing to do and will certainly reduced people complaining the same thing (No taskbar, no min/max, no power-off, crap notifications, etc.) Eh? Seriously? Have you seen http://www.gnome3.org/. There you go - videos. Point is your typically not getting gnome3 by going to that website. Your getting gnome 3 from Fedora or something else. I only recently found out that site existed. That's where the welcome screen comes in handy. For the users just picking up a Fedora CD and going with it. ___ gnome-shell-list mailing list gnome-shell-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-shell-list ___ gnome-shell-list mailing list gnome-shell-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-shell-list
Re: We want task bar back. Pretty please.
Nice help page. Just having a look at it for the first time. Ummm wonder if that's bad... Using Gnome-Shell for over a month now and only now noticing the help pages... [?] Maybe there's an idea. Have a check box in the help page to open at startup. Then the user can de-select it. (or is that like screaming RTFM?) In anycase I really do like the help pages. On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 10:02 PM, Jason D. Clinton m...@jasonclinton.comwrote: On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 20:59, G. Michael Carter mi...@carterfamily.cawrote: On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 9:44 PM, Adam Tauno Williams awill...@whitemice.org wrote: On Fri, 2011-05-06 at 08:01 +0800, Allan E. Registos wrote: On Friday, 06 May, 2011 01:54 AM, G. Michael Carter wrote: That's the best thing to do and will certainly reduced people complaining the same thing (No taskbar, no min/max, no power-off, crap notifications, etc.) Eh? Seriously? Have you seen http://www.gnome3.org/. There you go - videos. Point is your typically not getting gnome3 by going to that website. Your getting gnome 3 from Fedora or something else. I only recently found out that site existed. That's where the welcome screen comes in handy. For the users just picking up a Fedora CD and going with it. Please join the docs team and help us get the videos embedded in Yelp for 3.2. I'm already toying with the idea of new video content. With strict adherence to freeze schedule, we'll get them done in plenty of time for translators. 330.gif___ gnome-shell-list mailing list gnome-shell-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-shell-list
Narrative for Finding and Reminding
It's Monday, your first school day after a short vacation from the Easter holiday. Before vacation, you had been working on writing several reports about your recent field research on the coiling habits of the boa constrictor. After blowing away a thin layer of dust from your computer (what's with the cleaning staff at this campus, anyway?), you turn it on and log in. The first thing that greets you is the journal of the last work you did before you went on vacation. Beside it you see an area for reminders of things that you need to get done soon. You see familiar items in your journal, in the Last Week section: two or three documents detailing different aspects of the boas, pictures of boas that you took in their habitat and that you have been editing for publication, and several IM conversations with your colleagues. One of those says conversation with Paco - your Uruguayan colleague, plus a little annotation you added for that conversation: retrograde boa. You are on the trail of a peculiar specimen that lives in the southern hemisphere, and yet it coils *anticlockwise* around tree branches. Thankfully, nothing is in the area for reminders. You were careful to deal with soon-to-be-pending things before your vacation. Coming back from vacation means your mailbox will be full, and you need to go through it. You exit the journal, and open your mail program. Some mails from Paco catch your eye, so you click on them first. He has a draft report about the retrograde boa, and some really good pictures, he says. You save the attachments to your Downloads. Surely enough, the journal notifies you that new items appeared. You click on the notification; the journal comes up again, and you see your items there. I don't want to read Paco's stuff just yet, you think. First I'll see if there is anything urgent in my inbox, and goddamn, I need a coffee. You drag the files from the journal into the reminders area, specifically to the Today section - you want to keep those items around for reading later today. You go and get your coffee. Coffee by the computer effectively makes you one-handed, so you use the remaining hand to scroll through your mail. Nothing out of the usual, fortunately; only mail that you can reply to at leisure. With coffee and an awakened brain, it's a good time to see what Paco was up to. You bring up the journal and click on his draft report in Today's reminders. Oowriter opens. You read while you sip your drink. A notification tells you - your sister is on IM and wants to talk to you. You put your mug down. Yo, dawg, she says. Yo, you reply. Mom's birthday is in two weeks. Oh, you are right. I get a cake, and you get a present? Sure. Gotta go; ttyl. You fire up a browser. Google-maps for bakeries in Dough St., for that's where you know the good cakes are. There's the link for Wallace and Gromit's shop. You drag the link from the browser, hover on the journal, and as it appears, you drop the link into the Next week section of the reminders. An icon appears there, and a text entry - Cake for mom, you type. You close the journal. You read on. Paco's draft is quite good. You can certainly reference it in your own papers. So, you bring up the journal again and your documents are right there in the last work you did before vacation. You open your documents and cut and paste the citation. Paco is online. You IM him. Mind if I use your retrograde photos in my report? They are CC-BY-SA, dawg. Go ahead. 'k. Sweet draft, BTW.. You bring up the journal again, and you make it cover only half the screen. You drag Paco's pictures from the reminders section into your oowriter document, which of course causes them to be inserted. Oh, damnit, you think, and then you sigh, as you resign yourself to having to fix the image anchors and wrapping later. You greedily lick the last drop of coffee from the rim of your mug. It's nice to be back. * * * It is Monday, a week later. You come to school, boot up, log in. The journal greets you with the results of a busy week: lots of ephemeral material around your three reports - images, conversations, web pages. The reminders for This week catch your eye: you see Mom's cake there. Click on it - your browser opens. Scroll down to find the phone number for the bakery; dial after requesting an out-line from the university's phone system. Wallace answers, and you can't understand what he says at first. You hear a tea-gulp, oh, I'm terribly sorry, I had a cracker in my mouth. How may we help you? You order the chocolate cake with almonds, so you can pick it up tomorrow. Certainly. As you are hanging up, you hear a faint scream, Gromit, get to it. That dog can bake, you think. You leave the reminder there, so you'll remember to pick up the cake tomorrow. After that you'll remove the reminder so it doesn't roll over into your journal when the week ends. Paco IMs you. I'm screwed. A fucking boa ate my laptop.
Re: We want task bar back. Pretty please.
Adam: Does your GNOME Shell environment provides a Welcome to Your New Desktop kind of thing and then points to gnome3.org for tutorial videos? I am just responding to a post that suggests a Welcome dialog box in a freshly installed distro with GNOME Shell as the desktop. Does the stable GNOME 3 provides that? If not, then your gnome3.org point is moot as this has something to do with new users to get them informed of what's new and what's not. Regards, Allan - Original Message - From: Adam Tauno Williams awill...@whitemice.org To: gnome-shell-list@gnome.org Sent: Friday, May 6, 2011 9:44:03 AM Subject: Re: We want task bar back. Pretty please. On Fri, 2011-05-06 at 08:01 +0800, Allan E. Registos wrote: On Friday, 06 May, 2011 01:54 AM, G. Michael Carter wrote: That's the best thing to do and will certainly reduced people complaining the same thing (No taskbar, no min/max, no power-off, crap notifications, etc.) Eh? Seriously? Have you seen http://www.gnome3.org/. There you go - videos. ___ gnome-shell-list mailing list gnome-shell-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-shell-list ___ gnome-shell-list mailing list gnome-shell-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-shell-list
Re: We want task bar back. Pretty please.
- Original Message - From: Adam Tauno Williams awill...@whitemice.org To: gnome-shell-list@gnome.org Sent: Friday, May 6, 2011 9:44:03 AM Subject: Re: We want task bar back. Pretty please. On Fri, 2011-05-06 at 08:01 +0800, Allan E. Registos wrote: On Friday, 06 May, 2011 01:54 AM, G. Michael Carter wrote: That's the best thing to do and will certainly reduced people complaining the same thing (No taskbar, no min/max, no power-off, crap notifications, etc.) Eh? Seriously? Have you seen http://www.gnome3.org/. There you go - videos. You can't force people to go online just how to use your very friendly desktop especially for people without Internet (Behind firewalls, corporate desktops, etc), embedded tutorial videos does make sense especially if you have 56kbps internet connection. Regards, Allan ___ gnome-shell-list mailing list gnome-shell-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-shell-list ___ gnome-shell-list mailing list gnome-shell-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-shell-list
