Re: [hlds] TF2 MOTD and Quickplay

[Mark Edwards]

Yes, can we? Please?

-Original Message- 


Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2013 11:54:43 -0400
From: Doctor McKay 
To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list

Subject: Re: [hlds] TF2 MOTD and Quickplay
Message-ID:

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Can we please get back on topic? This isn't about how people pay for their
servers, this is about detecting people who join through Quickplay.

Dr. McKay


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Re: [hlds] TF2 MOTD and Quickplay

[Paul]

Agreed. The best option would surely to either implement an argument on
status, such as 'status quickplay' which lists only players from quickplay
in that example, or as you suggested (I think?) to have status have another
column in the player listing.


On 17 June 2013 16:54, Doctor McKay  wrote:

> Can we please get back on topic? This isn't about how people pay for their
> servers, this is about detecting people who join through Quickplay.
>
> Dr. McKay
>
>
> On Monday, June 17, 2013, Paul wrote:
>
>> I'm not stating that 'my community' is not donating, I'm merely stating
>> what I know is and always has been a general fact for most communities.
>> Thanks however for your comment.
>>
>>
>> On 17 June 2013 16:13, Liquid Source  wrote:
>>
>> Truly, if you're not getting donations you are in denial of the fact that
>> the community thinks your server sucks. Try changing things to the requests
>> of the community and not dictate the same things that have created the lack
>> of interest in donations.
>>
>>
>> ------------------
>> From: ubyu@gmail.com
>> Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2013 09:55:58 +0100
>>
>> To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com
>> Subject: Re: [hlds] TF2 MOTD and Quickplay
>>
>> Then again a good number of players don't even support the best
>> communities out there by donating, most players these days are under the
>> impression that running a server has no price tags attached. It's a case of
>> either the community's owner footing the cost, or closing their own
>> community's servers. The latter of course generally ends up with less
>> servers than there are today. Less servers eventually means little to no
>> game. Why else haven't more official servers been opened up? Because it's
>> not cheap (or free) and is most likely going to cause Valve to be running
>> at a loss in order to do so. So that leaves the final option, Pinion and
>> the like, an alternative solution to those who don't donate to a good
>> community in order to keep it alive for all to participate on.
>>
>> Hate Pinion and the like? Disable HTML MOTD's in your settings in-game
>> and leave and blacklist servers which use it. Finally look for and go on
>> official Valve servers. SPUF is generally a better place to have this sort
>> of discussion on really, imo.
>>
>>
>> On 17 June 2013 10:05, Saint K.  wrote:
>>
>> A good community and it's servers are supported by it's donors, not by
>> highly intrusive advertisements.
>>
>> Saint K.
>> 
>> From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [
>> hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] on behalf of Supreet Sahni [
>> coachcrock...@gmail.com]
>> Sent: 17 June 2013 01:13
>> To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com
>> Subject: Re: [hlds] TF2 MOTD and Quickplay
>>
>> Doctor, why don't you pay the $300-400 dedicated server bills and other
>> expenses that server owners have to pay to keep their community running.
>>
>> It's as simple as this, a server forces you to see ads, leave it and
>> don't come back. Why are you trying to be a Nazi government trying to
>> control what server owners want to do.
>>
>> Look Valve, we pay for these servers okay. Dedicated servers aren't
>> cheap, we need to make money to recovery costs. What you are basically
>> doing is stunting one community's growth.
>>
>> If you continue to create features that will just add more and more
>> restrictions for server owners, why don't you just become like one of the
>> game publishers that don't even let users host dedicated servers.
>>
>> Just take away our server powers and how about this Valve? Why don't you
>> just host all the servers for us and leave us the headache? How much extra
>> server dollars will that cost you Valve, and also how much manpower will
>> you need to maintain those 1000s of servers running plugins that people
>> LOVE!
>>
>> It's easy for you to just toss up Vanilla servers in there with no
>> configurations and setups but do realize the amount of hours and hardwork
>> server owners put in their community. We build it from ground up. How would
>> you like it Valve is "Example Gaming Regulation" told you, you can't push
>> certain updates and release a set group of weapons and items.
>>
>> The point is this - we pay full cost for our communities, so let us do
>> THINGS to cover for the cost. Otherwise, make srcds use less RAM and CPU so
>> we don't have to buy expensive servers.
>>
>> I speak on be
>>
>>
>
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> Sent from Gmail Mobile
>
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Re: [hlds] TF2 MOTD and Quickplay

[Doctor McKay]

Can we please get back on topic? This isn't about how people pay for their
servers, this is about detecting people who join through Quickplay.

Dr. McKay

On Monday, June 17, 2013, Paul wrote:

> I'm not stating that 'my community' is not donating, I'm merely stating
> what I know is and always has been a general fact for most communities.
> Thanks however for your comment.
>
>
> On 17 June 2013 16:13, Liquid Source  wrote:
>
> Truly, if you're not getting donations you are in denial of the fact that
> the community thinks your server sucks. Try changing things to the requests
> of the community and not dictate the same things that have created the lack
> of interest in donations.
>
>
> --
> From: ubyu@gmail.com
> Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2013 09:55:58 +0100
>
> To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com
> Subject: Re: [hlds] TF2 MOTD and Quickplay
>
> Then again a good number of players don't even support the best
> communities out there by donating, most players these days are under the
> impression that running a server has no price tags attached. It's a case of
> either the community's owner footing the cost, or closing their own
> community's servers. The latter of course generally ends up with less
> servers than there are today. Less servers eventually means little to no
> game. Why else haven't more official servers been opened up? Because it's
> not cheap (or free) and is most likely going to cause Valve to be running
> at a loss in order to do so. So that leaves the final option, Pinion and
> the like, an alternative solution to those who don't donate to a good
> community in order to keep it alive for all to participate on.
>
> Hate Pinion and the like? Disable HTML MOTD's in your settings in-game and
> leave and blacklist servers which use it. Finally look for and go on
> official Valve servers. SPUF is generally a better place to have this sort
> of discussion on really, imo.
>
>
> On 17 June 2013 10:05, Saint K.  wrote:
>
> A good community and it's servers are supported by it's donors, not by
> highly intrusive advertisements.
>
> Saint K.
> ____
> From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [
> hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] on behalf of Supreet Sahni [
> coachcrock...@gmail.com]
> Sent: 17 June 2013 01:13
> To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com
> Subject: Re: [hlds] TF2 MOTD and Quickplay
>
> Doctor, why don't you pay the $300-400 dedicated server bills and other
> expenses that server owners have to pay to keep their community running.
>
> It's as simple as this, a server forces you to see ads, leave it and don't
> come back. Why are you trying to be a Nazi government trying to control
> what server owners want to do.
>
> Look Valve, we pay for these servers okay. Dedicated servers aren't cheap,
> we need to make money to recovery costs. What you are basically doing is
> stunting one community's growth.
>
> If you continue to create features that will just add more and more
> restrictions for server owners, why don't you just become like one of the
> game publishers that don't even let users host dedicated servers.
>
> Just take away our server powers and how about this Valve? Why don't you
> just host all the servers for us and leave us the headache? How much extra
> server dollars will that cost you Valve, and also how much manpower will
> you need to maintain those 1000s of servers running plugins that people
> LOVE!
>
> It's easy for you to just toss up Vanilla servers in there with no
> configurations and setups but do realize the amount of hours and hardwork
> server owners put in their community. We build it from ground up. How would
> you like it Valve is "Example Gaming Regulation" told you, you can't push
> certain updates and release a set group of weapons and items.
>
> The point is this - we pay full cost for our communities, so let us do
> THINGS to cover for the cost. Otherwise, make srcds use less RAM and CPU so
> we don't have to buy expensive servers.
>
> I speak on be
>
>

-- 
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Re: [hlds] TF2 MOTD and Quickplay

[Paul]

I'm not stating that 'my community' is not donating, I'm merely stating
what I know is and always has been a general fact for most communities.
Thanks however for your comment.


On 17 June 2013 16:13, Liquid Source  wrote:

> Truly, if you're not getting donations you are in denial of the fact that
> the community thinks your server sucks. Try changing things to the requests
> of the community and not dictate the same things that have created the lack
> of interest in donations.
>
>
> --
> From: ubyu@gmail.com
> Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2013 09:55:58 +0100
>
> To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com
> Subject: Re: [hlds] TF2 MOTD and Quickplay
>
> Then again a good number of players don't even support the best
> communities out there by donating, most players these days are under the
> impression that running a server has no price tags attached. It's a case of
> either the community's owner footing the cost, or closing their own
> community's servers. The latter of course generally ends up with less
> servers than there are today. Less servers eventually means little to no
> game. Why else haven't more official servers been opened up? Because it's
> not cheap (or free) and is most likely going to cause Valve to be running
> at a loss in order to do so. So that leaves the final option, Pinion and
> the like, an alternative solution to those who don't donate to a good
> community in order to keep it alive for all to participate on.
>
> Hate Pinion and the like? Disable HTML MOTD's in your settings in-game and
> leave and blacklist servers which use it. Finally look for and go on
> official Valve servers. SPUF is generally a better place to have this sort
> of discussion on really, imo.
>
>
> On 17 June 2013 10:05, Saint K.  wrote:
>
> A good community and it's servers are supported by it's donors, not by
> highly intrusive advertisements.
>
> Saint K.
> 
> From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [
> hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] on behalf of Supreet Sahni [
> coachcrock...@gmail.com]
> Sent: 17 June 2013 01:13
> To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com
> Subject: Re: [hlds] TF2 MOTD and Quickplay
>
> Doctor, why don't you pay the $300-400 dedicated server bills and other
> expenses that server owners have to pay to keep their community running.
>
> It's as simple as this, a server forces you to see ads, leave it and don't
> come back. Why are you trying to be a Nazi government trying to control
> what server owners want to do.
>
> Look Valve, we pay for these servers okay. Dedicated servers aren't cheap,
> we need to make money to recovery costs. What you are basically doing is
> stunting one community's growth.
>
> If you continue to create features that will just add more and more
> restrictions for server owners, why don't you just become like one of the
> game publishers that don't even let users host dedicated servers.
>
> Just take away our server powers and how about this Valve? Why don't you
> just host all the servers for us and leave us the headache? How much extra
> server dollars will that cost you Valve, and also how much manpower will
> you need to maintain those 1000s of servers running plugins that people
> LOVE!
>
> It's easy for you to just toss up Vanilla servers in there with no
> configurations and setups but do realize the amount of hours and hardwork
> server owners put in their community. We build it from ground up. How would
> you like it Valve is "Example Gaming Regulation" told you, you can't push
> certain updates and release a set group of weapons and items.
>
> The point is this - we pay full cost for our communities, so let us do
> THINGS to cover for the cost. Otherwise, make srcds use less RAM and CPU so
> we don't have to buy expensive servers.
>
> I speak on behalf of many community owners who are irritated by people
> stirring up something every few weeks for no reason. Yeah I'm talking about
> you Doctor.
>
> Your TF2 would be NOTHING if it wasn't for us hard working community
> owners who provide great servers for your playerbase to play at.
>
>
> ___
> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
> please visit:
> https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds
>
> ___
> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
> please visit:
> https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds
>
>
>
> ___

Re: [hlds] TF2 MOTD and Quickplay

[Liquid Source]

Truly, if you're not getting donations you are in denial of the fact that the 
community thinks your server sucks. Try changing things to the requests of the 
community and not dictate the same things that have created the lack of 
interest in donations.

 
From: ubyu@gmail.com
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2013 09:55:58 +0100
To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com
Subject: Re: [hlds] TF2 MOTD and Quickplay

Then again a good number of players don't even support the best communities out 
there by donating, most players these days are under the impression that 
running a server has no price tags attached. It's a case of either the 
community's owner footing the cost, or closing their own community's servers. 
The latter of course generally ends up with less servers than there are today. 
Less servers eventually means little to no game. Why else haven't more official 
servers been opened up? Because it's not cheap (or free) and is most likely 
going to cause Valve to be running at a loss in order to do so. So that leaves 
the final option, Pinion and the like, an alternative solution to those who 
don't donate to a good community in order to keep it alive for all to 
participate on.


Hate Pinion and the like? Disable HTML MOTD's in your settings in-game and 
leave and blacklist servers which use it. Finally look for and go on official 
Valve servers. SPUF is generally a better place to have this sort of discussion 
on really, imo.



On 17 June 2013 10:05, Saint K.  wrote:


A good community and it's servers are supported by it's donors, not by highly 
intrusive advertisements.



Saint K.



From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] 
on behalf of Supreet Sahni [coachcrock...@gmail.com]



Sent: 17 June 2013 01:13

To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com

Subject: Re: [hlds] TF2 MOTD and Quickplay



Doctor, why don't you pay the $300-400 dedicated server bills and other 
expenses that server owners have to pay to keep their community running.



It's as simple as this, a server forces you to see ads, leave it and don't come 
back. Why are you trying to be a Nazi government trying to control what server 
owners want to do.



Look Valve, we pay for these servers okay. Dedicated servers aren't cheap, we 
need to make money to recovery costs. What you are basically doing is stunting 
one community's growth.



If you continue to create features that will just add more and more 
restrictions for server owners, why don't you just become like one of the game 
publishers that don't even let users host dedicated servers.



Just take away our server powers and how about this Valve? Why don't you just 
host all the servers for us and leave us the headache? How much extra server 
dollars will that cost you Valve, and also how much manpower will you need to 
maintain those 1000s of servers running plugins that people LOVE!





It's easy for you to just toss up Vanilla servers in there with no 
configurations and setups but do realize the amount of hours and hardwork 
server owners put in their community. We build it from ground up. How would you 
like it Valve is "Example Gaming Regulation" told you, you can't push certain 
updates and release a set group of weapons and items.





The point is this - we pay full cost for our communities, so let us do THINGS 
to cover for the cost. Otherwise, make srcds use less RAM and CPU so we don't 
have to buy expensive servers.



I speak on behalf of many community owners who are irritated by people stirring 
up something every few weeks for no reason. Yeah I'm talking about you Doctor.



Your TF2 would be NOTHING if it wasn't for us hard working community owners who 
provide great servers for your playerbase to play at.





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Re: [hlds] TF2 MOTD and Quickplay

[Paul]

Then again a good number of players don't even support the best communities
out there by donating, most players these days are under the impression
that running a server has no price tags attached. It's a case of either the
community's owner footing the cost, or closing their own community's
servers. The latter of course generally ends up with less servers than
there are today. Less servers eventually means little to no game. Why else
haven't more official servers been opened up? Because it's not cheap (or
free) and is most likely going to cause Valve to be running at a loss in
order to do so. So that leaves the final option, Pinion and the like, an
alternative solution to those who don't donate to a good community in order
to keep it alive for all to participate on.

Hate Pinion and the like? Disable HTML MOTD's in your settings in-game and
leave and blacklist servers which use it. Finally look for and go on
official Valve servers. SPUF is generally a better place to have this sort
of discussion on really, imo.


On 17 June 2013 10:05, Saint K.  wrote:

> A good community and it's servers are supported by it's donors, not by
> highly intrusive advertisements.
>
> Saint K.
> 
> From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [
> hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] on behalf of Supreet Sahni [
> coachcrock...@gmail.com]
> Sent: 17 June 2013 01:13
> To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com
> Subject: Re: [hlds] TF2 MOTD and Quickplay
>
> Doctor, why don't you pay the $300-400 dedicated server bills and other
> expenses that server owners have to pay to keep their community running.
>
> It's as simple as this, a server forces you to see ads, leave it and don't
> come back. Why are you trying to be a Nazi government trying to control
> what server owners want to do.
>
> Look Valve, we pay for these servers okay. Dedicated servers aren't cheap,
> we need to make money to recovery costs. What you are basically doing is
> stunting one community's growth.
>
> If you continue to create features that will just add more and more
> restrictions for server owners, why don't you just become like one of the
> game publishers that don't even let users host dedicated servers.
>
> Just take away our server powers and how about this Valve? Why don't you
> just host all the servers for us and leave us the headache? How much extra
> server dollars will that cost you Valve, and also how much manpower will
> you need to maintain those 1000s of servers running plugins that people
> LOVE!
>
> It's easy for you to just toss up Vanilla servers in there with no
> configurations and setups but do realize the amount of hours and hardwork
> server owners put in their community. We build it from ground up. How would
> you like it Valve is "Example Gaming Regulation" told you, you can't push
> certain updates and release a set group of weapons and items.
>
> The point is this - we pay full cost for our communities, so let us do
> THINGS to cover for the cost. Otherwise, make srcds use less RAM and CPU so
> we don't have to buy expensive servers.
>
> I speak on behalf of many community owners who are irritated by people
> stirring up something every few weeks for no reason. Yeah I'm talking about
> you Doctor.
>
> Your TF2 would be NOTHING if it wasn't for us hard working community
> owners who provide great servers for your playerbase to play at.
>
>
> ___
> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
> please visit:
> https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds
>
> ___
> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
> please visit:
> https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds
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Re: [hlds] TF2 MOTD and Quickplay

[Saint K .]

A good community and it's servers are supported by it's donors, not by highly 
intrusive advertisements.

Saint K.

From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] 
on behalf of Supreet Sahni [coachcrock...@gmail.com]
Sent: 17 June 2013 01:13
To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com
Subject: Re: [hlds] TF2 MOTD and Quickplay

Doctor, why don't you pay the $300-400 dedicated server bills and other 
expenses that server owners have to pay to keep their community running.

It's as simple as this, a server forces you to see ads, leave it and don't come 
back. Why are you trying to be a Nazi government trying to control what server 
owners want to do.

Look Valve, we pay for these servers okay. Dedicated servers aren't cheap, we 
need to make money to recovery costs. What you are basically doing is stunting 
one community's growth.

If you continue to create features that will just add more and more 
restrictions for server owners, why don't you just become like one of the game 
publishers that don't even let users host dedicated servers.

Just take away our server powers and how about this Valve? Why don't you just 
host all the servers for us and leave us the headache? How much extra server 
dollars will that cost you Valve, and also how much manpower will you need to 
maintain those 1000s of servers running plugins that people LOVE!

It's easy for you to just toss up Vanilla servers in there with no 
configurations and setups but do realize the amount of hours and hardwork 
server owners put in their community. We build it from ground up. How would you 
like it Valve is "Example Gaming Regulation" told you, you can't push certain 
updates and release a set group of weapons and items.

The point is this - we pay full cost for our communities, so let us do THINGS 
to cover for the cost. Otherwise, make srcds use less RAM and CPU so we don't 
have to buy expensive servers.

I speak on behalf of many community owners who are irritated by people stirring 
up something every few weeks for no reason. Yeah I'm talking about you Doctor.

Your TF2 would be NOTHING if it wasn't for us hard working community owners who 
provide great servers for your playerbase to play at.


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Re: [hlds] TF2 MOTD and Quickplay

[Kit Parenteau]

- Too much interlinked functionality. Serving up background music in the 
MOTD is somewhat popular, for example.
- Unless disabled is the default, it fails to "protect" the users who 
need the most protection (new and unwitting users).
- Being all-or-nothing without other functionality comes back to the 
first issue above.


It all does come down to how much effort Valve will put into correcting 
the issue. From a security and abuse standpoint, it's just an utter 
mess. Cleaning it up properly without killing functionality isn't a 
small undertaking either. Major coding, custom script handling to 
interject permission requests, or hard blocks of functionality that may 
or may not have an API to intercept. Then no matter what you allow and 
block, there is liable to be a legitimate function relying on that or 
some abusive manner of circumventing the restrictions.  Cat and mouse, 
and sometimes legitimate uses take the fall if the abuse gets too heavy.



On 6/16/2013 7:50 PM, Paul wrote:
Or simply just disable HTML motds in your options and stop feeding 
threads such as this with nonsense about deleting the MOTD entirely or 
such like?





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Re: [hlds] TF2 MOTD and Quickplay

[Paul]

Or simply just disable HTML motds in your options and stop feeding threads
such as this with nonsense about deleting the MOTD entirely or such like?


On 17 June 2013 02:31, Brendan Cosman wrote:

> Shutting down all TF2 servers would resolve all the issues as well, that
> does not mean that it is the best solution.
>
> The MOTD function is used for both good and evil purposes. Other people
> have suggested solutions to the 'problem' of Pinion, depending on what you
> think the problem is.
>
> Personally, I think that Pinion and anything similar should force a sv_tag
> that disallows quickfind / matchmaking traffic and more sophisticated users
> can filter out. Problem solved, right?
>
> Regards,
> Brendan.
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Liquid Source" 
> To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com
> Sent: Monday, 17 June, 2013 10:43:09 AM
> Subject: Re: [hlds] TF2 MOTD and Quickplay
>
> Can we stay on topic please. The fact that removing the MOTD function
> would resolve all the issues.
>
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> please visit:
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Re: [hlds] TF2 MOTD and Quickplay

[Mart-Jan Reeuwijk]

motd blah...

what really needs to change is that players have not the full control over the 
MOTD they should have. All the other  is pointless.

Problems (imo):
- Reopening MOTD's by plugins outside of control of client. (this excludes the 
ones where the client DOES ask for it to be opened for the backpack, rules, or 
other functions)

- Background opening of spam-ads and such
- server side not able to detect status of MOTD opened or not.

Things that I think should be on MOTD to have several buttons: 

- Close (meaning exactly THAT, close it and throw it out of memory, and not ran 
in background)

- Block (same as "close" but per game session so MOTD's can't be opened unless 
restarted the game)
- Back to game (keeping it open in background, to allow for in-game radio or 
w/e)

In regards to "reporting" to the server if a page is still open or not, or 
being quickplay or not, *shrugs* I don't plan functionality on that, but I can 
see use by others.


All the other  about ads and "abuse" and whatnot, isn't really clearing the 
conversation here to get to some objective. Go back to 4chan if you need 
"drama". I've already put some filters up for some posters, to not see those 
anymore, been enough. 
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Re: [hlds] TF2 MOTD and Quickplay

[T Marler]

I don't think advertising in motds constitutes abuse

Liquid Source  wrote:

Thanks for your opinion but how to deal with server op abuses?  Just dump 
the motd altogether. 

A) Most of us are sick and 
tired of our gaming experience being hijacked by unscrupulous server ops.
B) 
This topic is a virus to these mailing lists.
C) The supporters of the MOTD 
Abuse and Game Hi-jacking are just trolling this list.
D) MOTD has nothing to 
do with the actual game.
E) Valve doesn't have the in house skill to 
actually resolve the MOTD abuse issue.
F) Any messages the server op wants 
people to see can be sent via in-game chat.
 
 
PEACE AND 
LOVE

 
> Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2013 19:05:41 -0600
> From: bloodyi...@shaw.ca
> To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com
> Subject: Re: [hlds] (no subject)
> 
> I'm actually rather fond of the motd feature
> 
> Steam Commander  wrote:
> 
> Agreed, The problem is this thread got derailed by one user with  4 
> subscribed accounts. (n0man@gmail.com, 
> mc...@doctormckay.com, evo...@gmail.com, jtrun...@outlook.com).
>  
> Additional information about why the MOTD should be abused by server owners 
> really doesn't justify it. Let's just agree that removing the MOTD feature 
> from servers would resolve all the issues and close this discussion.  Date: 
> Mon, 17 Jun 2013 01:58:20 +0100
> From: andyg...@gmail.com
> To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com
> Subject: Re: [hlds] (no subject)
> 
> This is not what this mailing list is used for, please sort out your personal 
> issues elsewhere. 
> 
> On Mon, Jun 17, 2013 at 1:56 AM, Steam Commander  
> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> when you say "I'm out" does that mean all of you or just this account?
>  
> From: n0man@gmail.com
> Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2013 01:52:30 +0100
> 
> To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com
> Subject: Re: [hlds] (no subject)
> 
> *facepalm* I'm out.
> 
> On 17 June 2013 01:50, Steam Commander  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> make that four accounts with the same origin ip [50.115.172.19], also 
> registered to doctormckay.com...
>  
> n0man@gmail.com
> mc...@doctormckay.com
> 
> 
> 
> evo...@gmail.com
> jtrun...@outlook.com
>  
> email origin is not the same as the mailing list, thanks for expressing your 
> concern so as to make me look closer at your trail too.
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  
> From: n0man@gmail.com
> Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2013 01:43:49 +0100
> To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com
> 
> 
> 
> Subject: Re: [hlds] (no subject)
> 
> Valve's mailing list IP?
> 
> On 17 June 2013 01:41, Steam Commander  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> speaking of single user multiple accounts. it looks like 
> mc...@doctormckay.com, evo...@gmail.com, and jtrun...@outlook.com are coming 
> from the same origin ip address. funny how that works out.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  
> From: lepracy77...@live.com
> To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com
> Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2013 20:28:22 -0400
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Subject: [hlds] (no subject)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> make that five accounts
> From: jtrun...@outlook.com
> To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Date: Sun, 16  Jun 2013 20:21:06 -0400
> Subject: [hlds] (no subject) Make that four accounts.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From: serverg...@hotmail.com
> To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com
> Date: Sun, 16 
> Jun 2013 20:19:06 -0400
> Subject: [hlds] (no subject)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Way to attack people contributing to the list!! 
> 
>  
> What makes you think they are the same person? because 
> they disagree with your wrong opinion?
>  
> Which one of those people said anything about "quickplay" at all? do you 
> actually read what people write or do you just make things up in your head 
> and 
> respond in kind?
>  
> A few loud mouths do not reflect the opinions of all.
>  
>  
> - 
> Original Message - 
> 
> From: 
> Evourr [evo...@gmail.com]
> To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list 
> 
> Sent: Sunday, June 16, 2013 8:05 PM
> Subject: Re: [hlds] TF2 MOTD and 
> Quickplay 
>  
>  
> 
> The problem is this thread got derailed by one user with 
> 3 subscribed accounts. (Liquid Source, Steam Commander, and Valve 
> Monkey.)
>  
> Additional information added to the return of the 
> "status" command would suit your needs.
>  
> The problem with your original statement is that you 
> wanted Valve to implement a restriction on the quickplay clients so the motd 
> was 
> completely disabled, but you only wanted it so you could detect quickplay 
>

Re: [hlds] TF2 MOTD and Quickplay

[Liquid Source]

Thanks for your opinion but how to deal with server op abuses?  Just dump 
the motd altogether. 

A) Most of us are sick and 
tired of our gaming experience being hijacked by unscrupulous server ops.
B) 
This topic is a virus to these mailing lists.
C) The supporters of the MOTD 
Abuse and Game Hi-jacking are just trolling this list.
D) MOTD has nothing to 
do with the actual game.
E) Valve doesn't have the in house skill to 
actually resolve the MOTD abuse issue.
F) Any messages the server op wants 
people to see can be sent via in-game chat.
 
 
PEACE AND 
LOVE

 
> Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2013 19:05:41 -0600
> From: bloodyi...@shaw.ca
> To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com
> Subject: Re: [hlds] (no subject)
> 
> I'm actually rather fond of the motd feature
> 
> Steam Commander  wrote:
> 
> Agreed, The problem is this thread got derailed by one user with  4 
> subscribed accounts. (n0man@gmail.com, 
> mc...@doctormckay.com, evo...@gmail.com, jtrun...@outlook.com).
>  
> Additional information about why the MOTD should be abused by server owners 
> really doesn't justify it. Let's just agree that removing the MOTD feature 
> from servers would resolve all the issues and close this discussion.  Date: 
> Mon, 17 Jun 2013 01:58:20 +0100
> From: andyg...@gmail.com
> To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com
> Subject: Re: [hlds] (no subject)
> 
> This is not what this mailing list is used for, please sort out your personal 
> issues elsewhere. 
> 
> On Mon, Jun 17, 2013 at 1:56 AM, Steam Commander  
> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> when you say "I'm out" does that mean all of you or just this account?
>  
> From: n0man@gmail.com
> Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2013 01:52:30 +0100
> 
> To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com
> Subject: Re: [hlds] (no subject)
> 
> *facepalm* I'm out.
> 
> On 17 June 2013 01:50, Steam Commander  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> make that four accounts with the same origin ip [50.115.172.19], also 
> registered to doctormckay.com...
>  
> n0man@gmail.com
> mc...@doctormckay.com
> 
> 
> 
> evo...@gmail.com
> jtrun...@outlook.com
>  
> email origin is not the same as the mailing list, thanks for expressing your 
> concern so as to make me look closer at your trail too.
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  
> From: n0man@gmail.com
> Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2013 01:43:49 +0100
> To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com
> 
> 
> 
> Subject: Re: [hlds] (no subject)
> 
> Valve's mailing list IP?
> 
> On 17 June 2013 01:41, Steam Commander  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> speaking of single user multiple accounts. it looks like 
> mc...@doctormckay.com, evo...@gmail.com, and jtrun...@outlook.com are coming 
> from the same origin ip address. funny how that works out.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  
> From: lepracy77...@live.com
> To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com
> Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2013 20:28:22 -0400
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Subject: [hlds] (no subject)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> make that five accounts
> From: jtrun...@outlook.com
> To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Date: Sun, 16  Jun 2013 20:21:06 -0400
> Subject: [hlds] (no subject) Make that four accounts.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From: serverg...@hotmail.com
> To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com
> Date: Sun, 16 
> Jun 2013 20:19:06 -0400
> Subject: [hlds] (no subject)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Way to attack people contributing to the list!! 
> 
>  
> What makes you think they are the same person? because 
> they disagree with your wrong opinion?
>  
> Which one of those people said anything about "quickplay" at all? do you 
> actually read what people write or do you just make things up in your head 
> and 
> respond in kind?
>  
> A few loud mouths do not reflect the opinions of all.
>  
>  
> - 
> Original Message - 
> 
> From: 
> Evourr [evo...@gmail.com]
> To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list 
> 
> Sent: Sunday, June 16, 2013 8:05 PM
> Subject: Re: [hlds] TF2 MOTD and 
> Quickplay 
>  
>  
> 
> The problem is this thread got derailed by one user with 
> 3 subscribed accounts. (Liquid Source, Steam Commander, and Valve 
> Monkey.)
>  
> Additional information added to the return of the 
> "status" command would suit your needs.
>  
> The problem with your original statement is that you 
> wanted Valve to implement a restriction on the quickplay clients so the motd 
> was 
> completely disabled, but you only wanted it so you could detect quickplay 
> clients. (That's just bad 
> practice.)
> __

Re: [hlds] TF2 MOTD and Quickplay

[Doctor McKay]

To be honest, I was playing to my audience.  I figure it'd be much more
likely to happen if it's part of the system Valve already has in place
instead of an entirely new system. That being said, if a "quickplay" field
could be added to the player_connect event, that would certainly do the
trick (dunno how practical it'd be though, since player_connect is an
engine event).

This is an example of the XY Problem (
http://www.perlmonks.org/?node_id=542341). I have a problem, I thought of
one solution, that one solution isn't possible, and I asked if it could be.



Doctor McKay
http://www.doctormckay.com
mc...@doctormckay.com


On Sun, Jun 16, 2013 at 7:52 PM, Nomaan Ahmad  wrote:

> I dont know why you want it restricted. As a server operator and plugin
> writer, I think you'd agree that restrictions aren't good unless they can
> be used for exploiting clients.
>
> Why dont you ask Valve to add additional "status" for those quickplay
> clients that can be queried instead of restricting even more of what is
> already restricted?
>
>
> On 17 June 2013 00:45, Doctor McKay  wrote:
>
>> I'd just like to point out that nowhere in my original post did I say
>> that I run ads or that I want the MOTD restricted for non-Quickplay players.
>>
>> Servers are unable to open the MOTD window on players who joined via
>> Quickplay. However, this doesn't prevent servers from *loading pages* in
>> Quickplay-players' MOTD browsers. I simply suggested that Valve could
>> restrict the ability to load pages entirely on Quickplay-joined players.
>>
>> Although I suppose I should have been a bit more direct and to the point.
>> It's not necessarily that I particularly care about servers that pop ads (I
>> exclusively play on my community's servers, which don't use ads), I just
>> wanted a way to detect if a player joined through Quickplay. Checking if
>> they are able to load an MOTD window seemed like the most logical solution.
>> In fact, I had a plugin entirely finished and ready to deploy before I
>> discovered that pages will still load, just in the background.
>>
>> I'd like to detect Quickplay joins for two reasons. One, analytics. I'd
>> like to keep a record of how many players join from Quickplay and how many
>> join directly.
>>
>> Two, my community's servers have some configurable options that are
>> configured through the MOTD browser. I'd like to be able to detect which
>> clients won't be able to open an MOTD window and respond to their commands
>> accordingly.
>>
>> The last thing I want is the disappearance of the MOTD browser entirely.
>> I've written several plugins that rely on it, either fully (SourceMod DJ)
>> or partially (backpack.tf Price Check, SteamRep Checker (Redux)).
>>
>>
>>
>> Doctor McKay
>> http://www.doctormckay.com
>> mc...@doctormckay.com
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Jun 16, 2013 at 7:33 PM, ced lo  wrote:
>>
>>> Yeah im seriously tired of those useless post... Leave the Motd alone
>>> and if your not happy with, just move to another game.
>>>
>>> > Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2013 18:31:17 -0500
>>> > From: ad...@ponyfortress2.com
>>>
>>> > To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com
>>> > Subject: Re: [hlds] TF2 MOTD and Quickplay
>>> >
>>> > Hey guys, if you all want to fight, take it to Steam messages, some of
>>> > us use the mailing list for real issues, not bickering.
>>> >
>>> > <3 DL
>>> >
>>> > Quoting Doctor McKay :
>>> >
>>> > > As I'm sure most are aware, a little while ago Valve changed the TF2
>>> MOTD
>>> > > panel so that it can't be reopened by the server if the client joins
>>> via
>>> > > Quickplay (or using the matchmaking argument on the connect command).
>>> > > However, this just prevents the MOTD panel itself from redisplaying.
>>> The
>>> > > server can still open pages in the client's MOTD panel in the
>>> background.
>>> > >
>>> > > This means that the server can still spam traffic-to-cash URLs on
>>> clients,
>>> > > many of which have noise-making Flash embedded or which open popup
>>> windows
>>> > > using JavaScript. In order to maintain the "sterile bubble" in
>>> Quickplay,
>>> > > Valve might want to consider preventing servers from opening
>>> webpages on
>>> > > Quickplay-joi

Re: [hlds] TF2 MOTD and Quickplay

[Evourr]

The problem is this thread got derailed by one user with 3 subscribed accounts. 
(Liquid Source, Steam Commander, and Valve Monkey.)

Additional information added to the return of the "status" command would suit 
your needs.

The problem with your original statement is that you wanted Valve to implement 
a restriction on the quickplay clients so the motd was completely disabled, but 
you only wanted it so you could detect quickplay clients. (That's just bad 
practice.)
  - Original Message - 
  From: Doctor McKay 
  To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list 
  Sent: Sunday, June 16, 2013 7:45 PM
  Subject: Re: [hlds] TF2 MOTD and Quickplay


  I'd just like to point out that nowhere in my original post did I say that I 
run ads or that I want the MOTD restricted for non-Quickplay players.


  Servers are unable to open the MOTD window on players who joined via 
Quickplay. However, this doesn't prevent servers from *loading pages* in 
Quickplay-players' MOTD browsers. I simply suggested that Valve could restrict 
the ability to load pages entirely on Quickplay-joined players.


  Although I suppose I should have been a bit more direct and to the point. 
It's not necessarily that I particularly care about servers that pop ads (I 
exclusively play on my community's servers, which don't use ads), I just wanted 
a way to detect if a player joined through Quickplay. Checking if they are able 
to load an MOTD window seemed like the most logical solution. In fact, I had a 
plugin entirely finished and ready to deploy before I discovered that pages 
will still load, just in the background.


  I'd like to detect Quickplay joins for two reasons. One, analytics. I'd like 
to keep a record of how many players join from Quickplay and how many join 
directly.


  Two, my community's servers have some configurable options that are 
configured through the MOTD browser. I'd like to be able to detect which 
clients won't be able to open an MOTD window and respond to their commands 
accordingly.


  The last thing I want is the disappearance of the MOTD browser entirely. I've 
written several plugins that rely on it, either fully (SourceMod DJ) or 
partially (backpack.tf Price Check, SteamRep Checker (Redux)).






  Doctor McKay
  http://www.doctormckay.com
  mc...@doctormckay.com



  On Sun, Jun 16, 2013 at 7:33 PM, ced lo  wrote:

Yeah im seriously tired of those useless post... Leave the Motd alone and 
if your not happy with, just move to another game.


> Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2013 18:31:17 -0500
> From: ad...@ponyfortress2.com

> To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com
> Subject: Re: [hlds] TF2 MOTD and Quickplay
> 

> Hey guys, if you all want to fight, take it to Steam messages, some of 
> us use the mailing list for real issues, not bickering.
> 
> <3 DL
> 
> Quoting Doctor McKay :
> 
> > As I'm sure most are aware, a little while ago Valve changed the TF2 
MOTD
> > panel so that it can't be reopened by the server if the client joins via
> > Quickplay (or using the matchmaking argument on the connect command).
> > However, this just prevents the MOTD panel itself from redisplaying. The
> > server can still open pages in the client's MOTD panel in the 
background.
> >
> > This means that the server can still spam traffic-to-cash URLs on 
clients,
> > many of which have noise-making Flash embedded or which open popup 
windows
> > using JavaScript. In order to maintain the "sterile bubble" in 
Quickplay,
> > Valve might want to consider preventing servers from opening webpages on
> > Quickplay-joining clients entirely, not just preventing the panel from
> > being redisplayed.
> >
> >
> >
> > Doctor McKay
> > http://www.doctormckay.com
> > mc...@doctormckay.com
> >
> 
> 
> 
> ___
> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, 
please visit:
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--


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Re: [hlds] TF2 MOTD and Quickplay

[Valve Monkey]

I would like to thank Nomaan and Dr.McKay for restating (err em;  adding spam) 
to the topic and adding redundancy to the points already brought up in this 
list. 
 
From: n0man@gmail.com
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2013 00:52:16 +0100
To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com
Subject: Re: [hlds] TF2 MOTD and Quickplay

I dont know why you want it restricted. As a server operator and plugin writer, 
I think you'd agree that restrictions aren't good unless they can be used for 
exploiting clients.

Why dont you ask Valve to add additional "status" for those quickplay clients 
that can be queried instead of restricting even more of what is already 
restricted?



On 17 June 2013 00:45, Doctor McKay  wrote:


I'd just like to point out that nowhere in my original post did I say that I 
run ads or that I want the MOTD restricted for non-Quickplay players.




Servers are unable to open the MOTD window on players who joined via Quickplay. 
However, this doesn't prevent servers from *loading pages* in 
Quickplay-players' MOTD browsers. I simply suggested that Valve could restrict 
the ability to load pages entirely on Quickplay-joined players.




Although I suppose I should have been a bit more direct and to the point. It's 
not necessarily that I particularly care about servers that pop ads (I 
exclusively play on my community's servers, which don't use ads), I just wanted 
a way to detect if a player joined through Quickplay. Checking if they are able 
to load an MOTD window seemed like the most logical solution. In fact, I had a 
plugin entirely finished and ready to deploy before I discovered that pages 
will still load, just in the background.




I'd like to detect Quickplay joins for two reasons. One, analytics. I'd like to 
keep a record of how many players join from Quickplay and how many join 
directly.




Two, my community's servers have some configurable options that are configured 
through the MOTD browser. I'd like to be able to detect which clients won't be 
able to open an MOTD window and respond to their commands accordingly.




The last thing I want is the disappearance of the MOTD browser entirely. I've 
written several plugins that rely on it, either fully (SourceMod DJ) or 
partially (backpack.tf Price Check, SteamRep Checker (Redux)).





Doctor McKay

http://www.doctormckay.com

mc...@doctormckay.com


On Sun, Jun 16, 2013 at 7:33 PM, ced lo  wrote:







Yeah im seriously tired of those useless post... Leave the Motd alone and if 
your not happy with, just move to another game.

> Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2013 18:31:17 -0500
> From: ad...@ponyfortress2.com




> To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com
> Subject: Re: [hlds] TF2 MOTD and Quickplay
> 
> Hey guys, if you all want to fight, take it to Steam messages, some of  




> us use the mailing list for real issues, not bickering.
> 
> <3 DL
> 
> Quoting Doctor McKay :
> 




> > As I'm sure most are aware, a little while ago Valve changed the TF2 MOTD
> > panel so that it can't be reopened by the server if the client joins via
> > Quickplay (or using the matchmaking argument on the connect command).




> > However, this just prevents the MOTD panel itself from redisplaying. The
> > server can still open pages in the client's MOTD panel in the background.
> >
> > This means that the server can still spam traffic-to-cash URLs on clients,




> > many of which have noise-making Flash embedded or which open popup windows
> > using JavaScript. In order to maintain the "sterile bubble" in Quickplay,
> > Valve might want to consider preventing servers from opening webpages on




> > Quickplay-joining clients entirely, not just preventing the panel from
> > being redisplayed.
> >
> >
> >
> > Doctor McKay
> > http://www.doctormckay.com




> > mc...@doctormckay.com
> >
> 
> 
> 
> ___
> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please 
> visit:




> https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds
  

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Re: [hlds] TF2 MOTD and Quickplay

[Nomaan Ahmad]

I dont know why you want it restricted. As a server operator and plugin
writer, I think you'd agree that restrictions aren't good unless they can
be used for exploiting clients.

Why dont you ask Valve to add additional "status" for those quickplay
clients that can be queried instead of restricting even more of what is
already restricted?

On 17 June 2013 00:45, Doctor McKay  wrote:

> I'd just like to point out that nowhere in my original post did I say that
> I run ads or that I want the MOTD restricted for non-Quickplay players.
>
> Servers are unable to open the MOTD window on players who joined via
> Quickplay. However, this doesn't prevent servers from *loading pages* in
> Quickplay-players' MOTD browsers. I simply suggested that Valve could
> restrict the ability to load pages entirely on Quickplay-joined players.
>
> Although I suppose I should have been a bit more direct and to the point.
> It's not necessarily that I particularly care about servers that pop ads (I
> exclusively play on my community's servers, which don't use ads), I just
> wanted a way to detect if a player joined through Quickplay. Checking if
> they are able to load an MOTD window seemed like the most logical solution.
> In fact, I had a plugin entirely finished and ready to deploy before I
> discovered that pages will still load, just in the background.
>
> I'd like to detect Quickplay joins for two reasons. One, analytics. I'd
> like to keep a record of how many players join from Quickplay and how many
> join directly.
>
> Two, my community's servers have some configurable options that are
> configured through the MOTD browser. I'd like to be able to detect which
> clients won't be able to open an MOTD window and respond to their commands
> accordingly.
>
> The last thing I want is the disappearance of the MOTD browser entirely.
> I've written several plugins that rely on it, either fully (SourceMod DJ)
> or partially (backpack.tf Price Check, SteamRep Checker (Redux)).
>
>
>
> Doctor McKay
> http://www.doctormckay.com
> mc...@doctormckay.com
>
>
> On Sun, Jun 16, 2013 at 7:33 PM, ced lo  wrote:
>
>> Yeah im seriously tired of those useless post... Leave the Motd alone and
>> if your not happy with, just move to another game.
>>
>> > Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2013 18:31:17 -0500
>> > From: ad...@ponyfortress2.com
>>
>> > To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com
>> > Subject: Re: [hlds] TF2 MOTD and Quickplay
>> >
>> > Hey guys, if you all want to fight, take it to Steam messages, some of
>> > us use the mailing list for real issues, not bickering.
>> >
>> > <3 DL
>> >
>> > Quoting Doctor McKay :
>> >
>> > > As I'm sure most are aware, a little while ago Valve changed the TF2
>> MOTD
>> > > panel so that it can't be reopened by the server if the client joins
>> via
>> > > Quickplay (or using the matchmaking argument on the connect command).
>> > > However, this just prevents the MOTD panel itself from redisplaying.
>> The
>> > > server can still open pages in the client's MOTD panel in the
>> background.
>> > >
>> > > This means that the server can still spam traffic-to-cash URLs on
>> clients,
>> > > many of which have noise-making Flash embedded or which open popup
>> windows
>> > > using JavaScript. In order to maintain the "sterile bubble" in
>> Quickplay,
>> > > Valve might want to consider preventing servers from opening webpages
>> on
>> > > Quickplay-joining clients entirely, not just preventing the panel from
>> > > being redisplayed.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Doctor McKay
>> > > http://www.doctormckay.com
>> > > mc...@doctormckay.com
>> > >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ___
>> > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
>> please visit:
>> > https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds
>>
>> ___
>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
>> please visit:
>> https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds
>>
>>
>
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Re: [hlds] TF2 MOTD and Quickplay

[Liquid Source]

Wow you said "convenience" and "Complex Mods" in the same paragraph. If you 
need to share that much information about a mod then the mod should have it's 
own wiki, which can be displayed by users in game with the steam overlay 
function and game guides. Why would you insist that users be forced  to see it 
every time they join or at the whim of the server op? IMHO That makes no sense. 
Shift + Tab is very convenient.
 
From: nextra...@gmail.com
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2013 01:40:11 +0200
To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com
Subject: Re: [hlds] TF2 MOTD and Quickplay

You don't get the concept of convenience do you? Giving players the option to 
just type in /rules to see stuff is infinitely more valuable. I don't even use 
that and I can see where he's coming from. Especially on servers with complex 
mods or other meta-game experiences this is very important.


> You claim 'Harsh Treatment' in the defense of hi-jacking peoples game 
> experience, REALLY? It's obviously an abuse hidden in background subterfuge. 
> If you are collecting information about visitors then do it in the light of 
> day, such as displaying in chat a survey page url or similar. Log files can 
> also be uploaded and shared with stat tracking sites without disturbing 
> client gamers.



I don't claim anything in defense of hi-jacking peoples experience because I 
don't do that kind of thing. I don't collect information about visitors but I 
can see how just using google analytics (which runs on a metric ton of sites 
anyway without informing you) is more convenient than using external tools that 
may have to be created first.


> Game Menus and MOTD are not the same thing, I must commend you for a valiant 
> attempt at mudding the waters. 



Oh wow, a sensible observation. Also notice: Chat messages are not the same 
thing as MOTDs either. People have been using them for *years* across all valve 
games for a reason.


> In-game music players really? There are so many other and better options that 
> don't absorb bandwidth that the fact that you bring this up as an argument 
> only presents evidence that you are intentionally attempting to ruin game 
> experience or are just ignorant of how online games work.


Yeah right. My *optional* in game plugin that *dozens* of people use out of 
free will for convenience sake is a really abusive thing. It doesn't absorb 
bandwith on any reasonable broadband connection to harm the experience in any 
way. Else people would just stop using it.


> If you truly believe that the ability of server ops to display an MOTD or 
> similar, adds value for players then you can code your own mod that has it 
> and let the community vote by joining (or not) your modified server.


I really hope you are trolling here. Coding an own game just for MOTDs that are 
just supposed to add value for players. Yeah right. MOTDs have been in Valve 
games for over a decade now. Since then people just leave servers if they mess 
up their game experience, while the majority of servers just use the MOTD to 
enhance it. This isn't even about any permanent damage like messing with config 
files or anything. There are a plethora of other in-game ways to mess with 
players that will never be eliminated, and users will still have to use their 
disconnect and report buttons for that, too.



You sir are just a troll that should be banned from this list or immensely and 
mind-bogglingly ignorant towards other peoples use cases, opinions and 
situations.





On Mon, Jun 17, 2013 at 1:25 AM, Liquid Source  
wrote:





WOW, cry harder Supreet. If money is a problem for you may I suggest you get a 
real job instead of glomming off of other people?! Destroying the reputation of 
a company such as Valve by posting crap information to gamers and changing the 
whole game experience is just bad for business. If Valve decides to remove the 
motd functionality to keep people from tarnishing their image I know hundreds 
of server owners that will stand behind them. I also find your comparison of 
Valve to the Nazi's to be very offensive. Please refrain from such hate 
mongering. You are not the victim here, the people that play the game and 
Valves public image are.


 
Server rules... If they are to lengthy for a chat display they should be on a 
separate webpage, so just display the url to your servers web page. Most game 
host providers offer web space with the rental of a game server anyway.


 

 
> From: coachcrock...@gmail.com
> Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2013 19:13:10 -0400
> To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com


> Subject: Re: [hlds] TF2 MOTD and Quickplay
> 
> Doctor, why don't you pay the $300-400 dedicated server bills and other 
> expenses that server owners have to pay to keep their community running.


> 
> It's as simple as this, a server forces you to see ads, leave it and 

Re: [hlds] TF2 MOTD and Quickplay

[Paul]

I could've sworn that's what the HTML motd option in-game was meant to do?
You can disable it quite easily I thought.


On 17 June 2013 00:44, Steam Commander  wrote:

> my 2 cents..
>
> Seriously just get rid of the MOTD on private servers and be done with
> this. So obvious the people that want it are clearly abusing their game
> community for personal gains. If you don't want to remove motd from server
> options then use some server flags and give game browser users the ability
> to completely filter these servers from the genuine ones.
>
>
> This list must be where all the spam-trolls go when not otherwise occupied.
>
> ___
> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
> please visit:
> https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds
>
>
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Re: [hlds] TF2 MOTD and Quickplay

[Doctor McKay]

I'd just like to point out that nowhere in my original post did I say that
I run ads or that I want the MOTD restricted for non-Quickplay players.

Servers are unable to open the MOTD window on players who joined via
Quickplay. However, this doesn't prevent servers from *loading pages* in
Quickplay-players' MOTD browsers. I simply suggested that Valve could
restrict the ability to load pages entirely on Quickplay-joined players.

Although I suppose I should have been a bit more direct and to the point.
It's not necessarily that I particularly care about servers that pop ads (I
exclusively play on my community's servers, which don't use ads), I just
wanted a way to detect if a player joined through Quickplay. Checking if
they are able to load an MOTD window seemed like the most logical solution.
In fact, I had a plugin entirely finished and ready to deploy before I
discovered that pages will still load, just in the background.

I'd like to detect Quickplay joins for two reasons. One, analytics. I'd
like to keep a record of how many players join from Quickplay and how many
join directly.

Two, my community's servers have some configurable options that are
configured through the MOTD browser. I'd like to be able to detect which
clients won't be able to open an MOTD window and respond to their commands
accordingly.

The last thing I want is the disappearance of the MOTD browser entirely.
I've written several plugins that rely on it, either fully (SourceMod DJ)
or partially (backpack.tf Price Check, SteamRep Checker (Redux)).



Doctor McKay
http://www.doctormckay.com
mc...@doctormckay.com


On Sun, Jun 16, 2013 at 7:33 PM, ced lo  wrote:

> Yeah im seriously tired of those useless post... Leave the Motd alone and
> if your not happy with, just move to another game.
>
> > Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2013 18:31:17 -0500
> > From: ad...@ponyfortress2.com
>
> > To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com
> > Subject: Re: [hlds] TF2 MOTD and Quickplay
> >
> > Hey guys, if you all want to fight, take it to Steam messages, some of
> > us use the mailing list for real issues, not bickering.
> >
> > <3 DL
> >
> > Quoting Doctor McKay :
> >
> > > As I'm sure most are aware, a little while ago Valve changed the TF2
> MOTD
> > > panel so that it can't be reopened by the server if the client joins
> via
> > > Quickplay (or using the matchmaking argument on the connect command).
> > > However, this just prevents the MOTD panel itself from redisplaying.
> The
> > > server can still open pages in the client's MOTD panel in the
> background.
> > >
> > > This means that the server can still spam traffic-to-cash URLs on
> clients,
> > > many of which have noise-making Flash embedded or which open popup
> windows
> > > using JavaScript. In order to maintain the "sterile bubble" in
> Quickplay,
> > > Valve might want to consider preventing servers from opening webpages
> on
> > > Quickplay-joining clients entirely, not just preventing the panel from
> > > being redisplayed.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Doctor McKay
> > > http://www.doctormckay.com
> > > mc...@doctormckay.com
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > ___
> > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
> please visit:
> > https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds
>
> ___
> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
> please visit:
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Re: [hlds] TF2 MOTD and Quickplay

[Steam Commander]

my 2 cents..
 
Seriously just get rid of the MOTD on private servers and be done with this. So 
obvious the people that want it are clearly abusing their game community for 
personal gains. If you don't want to remove motd from server options then use 
some server flags and give game browser users the ability to completely filter 
these servers from the genuine ones.
 
 
This list must be where all the spam-trolls go when not otherwise occupied.
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Re: [hlds] TF2 MOTD and Quickplay

[Valentin G.]

You don't get the concept of convenience do you? Giving players the option
to just type in /rules to see stuff is infinitely more valuable. I don't
even use that and I can see where he's coming from. Especially on servers
with complex mods or other meta-game experiences this is very important.

> You claim 'Harsh Treatment' in the defense of hi-jacking peoples game
experience, REALLY? It's obviously an abuse hidden in background
subterfuge. If you are collecting information about visitors then do it in
the light of day, such as displaying in chat a survey page url or similar.
Log files can also be uploaded and shared with stat tracking sites without
disturbing client gamers.

I don't claim anything in defense of hi-jacking peoples experience because
I don't do that kind of thing. I don't collect information about visitors
but I can see how just using google analytics (which runs on a metric ton
of sites anyway without informing you) is more convenient than using
external tools that may have to be created first.

> Game Menus and MOTD are not the same thing, I must commend you for a
valiant attempt at mudding the waters.

Oh wow, a sensible observation. Also notice: Chat messages are not the same
thing as MOTDs either. People have been using them for *years* across all
valve games for a reason.

> In-game music players really? There are so many other and better
options that don't absorb bandwidth that the fact that you bring this up as
an argument only presents evidence that you are intentionally attempting to
ruin game experience or are just ignorant of how online games work.

Yeah right. My *optional* in game plugin that *dozens* of people use out of
free will for convenience sake is a really abusive thing. It doesn't absorb
bandwith on any reasonable broadband connection to harm the experience in
any way. Else people would just stop using it.

> If you truly believe that the ability of server ops to display an MOTD or
similar, adds value for players then you can code your own mod that has it
and let the community vote by joining (or not) your modified server.

I really hope you are trolling here. Coding an own game just for MOTDs that
are just supposed to add value for players. Yeah right. MOTDs have been in
Valve games for over a decade now. Since then people just leave servers if
they mess up their game experience, while the majority of servers just use
the MOTD to enhance it. This isn't even about any permanent damage like
messing with config files or anything. There are a plethora of other
in-game ways to mess with players that will never be eliminated, and users
will still have to use their disconnect and report buttons for that, too.


You sir are just a troll that should be banned from this list or immensely
and mind-bogglingly ignorant towards other peoples use cases, opinions and
situations.




On Mon, Jun 17, 2013 at 1:25 AM, Liquid Source wrote:

> WOW, cry harder Supreet. If money is a problem for you may I suggest you
> get a real job instead of glomming off of other people?! Destroying the
> reputation of a company such as Valve by posting crap information to gamers
> and changing the whole game experience is just bad for business. If Valve
> decides to remove the motd functionality to keep people from tarnishing
> their image I know hundreds of server owners that will stand behind them. I
> also find your comparison of Valve to the Nazi's to be very offensive.
> Please refrain from such hate mongering. You are not the victim here, the
> people that play the game and Valves public image are.
>
> Server rules... If they are to lengthy for a chat display they
> should be on a separate webpage, so just display the url to your servers
> web page. Most game host providers offer web space with the rental of a
> game server anyway.
>
>
>
> > From: coachcrock...@gmail.com
> > Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2013 19:13:10 -0400
>
> > To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com
> > Subject: Re: [hlds] TF2 MOTD and Quickplay
> >
> > Doctor, why don't you pay the $300-400 dedicated server bills and other
> expenses that server owners have to pay to keep their community running.
> >
> > It's as simple as this, a server forces you to see ads, leave it and
> don't come back. Why are you trying to be a Nazi government trying to
> control what server owners want to do.
> >
> > Look Valve, we pay for these servers okay. Dedicated servers aren't
> cheap, we need to make money to recovery costs. What you are basically
> doing is stunting one community's growth.
> >
> > If you continue to create features that will just add more and more
> restrictions for server owners, why don't you just become like one of the
> game publishers that don't even let users host dedicated servers.
&g

Re: [hlds] TF2 MOTD and Quickplay

[Nomaan Ahmad]

@Monkey, No I'm not mad about anything. I just wanted to help you by
informing you that motd can be disabled completely server-side by SourceMod
scripting.

On 17 June 2013 00:30, Valve Monkey  wrote:

> @Nomaan Ahmad Thanks, it has been removed from my servers for years now
> and my servers still fill up every day.
>
> No one is forcing their opinion on you I find it funny that you say
> something like that and respond so quickly, are you mad about something?
>
> ___
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> please visit:
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>
>
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Re: [hlds] TF2 MOTD and Quickplay

[Paul]

Truer words have never been said. This topic has been on this mailing list
too often now, Valve truly has better things to do for the game than to
read this, honestly :).


On 17 June 2013 00:31, DragonLight  wrote:

> Hey guys, if you all want to fight, take it to Steam messages, some of us
> use the mailing list for real issues, not bickering.
>
> <3 DL
>
>
> Quoting Doctor McKay :
>
>  As I'm sure most are aware, a little while ago Valve changed the TF2 MOTD
>> panel so that it can't be reopened by the server if the client joins via
>> Quickplay (or using the matchmaking argument on the connect command).
>> However, this just prevents the MOTD panel itself from redisplaying. The
>> server can still open pages in the client's MOTD panel in the background.
>>
>> This means that the server can still spam traffic-to-cash URLs on clients,
>> many of which have noise-making Flash embedded or which open popup windows
>> using JavaScript. In order to maintain the "sterile bubble" in Quickplay,
>> Valve might want to consider preventing servers from opening webpages on
>> Quickplay-joining clients entirely, not just preventing the panel from
>> being redisplayed.
>>
>>
>>
>> Doctor McKay
>> http://www.doctormckay.com
>> mc...@doctormckay.com
>>
>>
>
>
> __**_
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> please visit:
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>
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Re: [hlds] TF2 MOTD and Quickplay

[ced lo]

Yeah im seriously tired of those useless post... Leave the Motd alone and if 
your not happy with, just move to another game.

> Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2013 18:31:17 -0500
> From: ad...@ponyfortress2.com
> To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com
> Subject: Re: [hlds] TF2 MOTD and Quickplay
> 
> Hey guys, if you all want to fight, take it to Steam messages, some of  
> us use the mailing list for real issues, not bickering.
> 
> <3 DL
> 
> Quoting Doctor McKay :
> 
> > As I'm sure most are aware, a little while ago Valve changed the TF2 MOTD
> > panel so that it can't be reopened by the server if the client joins via
> > Quickplay (or using the matchmaking argument on the connect command).
> > However, this just prevents the MOTD panel itself from redisplaying. The
> > server can still open pages in the client's MOTD panel in the background.
> >
> > This means that the server can still spam traffic-to-cash URLs on clients,
> > many of which have noise-making Flash embedded or which open popup windows
> > using JavaScript. In order to maintain the "sterile bubble" in Quickplay,
> > Valve might want to consider preventing servers from opening webpages on
> > Quickplay-joining clients entirely, not just preventing the panel from
> > being redisplayed.
> >
> >
> >
> > Doctor McKay
> > http://www.doctormckay.com
> > mc...@doctormckay.com
> >
> 
> 
> 
> ___
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> visit:
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Re: [hlds] TF2 MOTD and Quickplay

[Valve Monkey]

@Nomaan Ahmad Thanks, it has been removed from my servers for years now and my 
servers still fill up every day. 
 
No one is forcing their opinion on you I find it funny that you say something 
like that and respond so quickly, are you mad about something?
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Re: [hlds] TF2 MOTD and Quickplay

[DragonLight]

Hey guys, if you all want to fight, take it to Steam messages, some of  
us use the mailing list for real issues, not bickering.


<3 DL

Quoting Doctor McKay :


As I'm sure most are aware, a little while ago Valve changed the TF2 MOTD
panel so that it can't be reopened by the server if the client joins via
Quickplay (or using the matchmaking argument on the connect command).
However, this just prevents the MOTD panel itself from redisplaying. The
server can still open pages in the client's MOTD panel in the background.

This means that the server can still spam traffic-to-cash URLs on clients,
many of which have noise-making Flash embedded or which open popup windows
using JavaScript. In order to maintain the "sterile bubble" in Quickplay,
Valve might want to consider preventing servers from opening webpages on
Quickplay-joining clients entirely, not just preventing the panel from
being redisplayed.



Doctor McKay
http://www.doctormckay.com
mc...@doctormckay.com





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Re: [hlds] TF2 MOTD and Quickplay

[Paul]

Simple answer is if Valve open more of their own vanilla servers,
prioritise their servers on QP/MM against other non-Valve servers, and as a
result they pay for the costs of upkeep. Nobody has lost out that way,
gamers get a guaranteed experience of no plugins modifying the game in any
single way, Valve's 'image' isn't effected by any single plugin that wasn't
part of the game, need I go on further...


On 17 June 2013 00:25, Liquid Source  wrote:

> WOW, cry harder Supreet. If money is a problem for you may I suggest you
> get a real job instead of glomming off of other people?! Destroying the
> reputation of a company such as Valve by posting crap information to gamers
> and changing the whole game experience is just bad for business. If Valve
> decides to remove the motd functionality to keep people from tarnishing
> their image I know hundreds of server owners that will stand behind them. I
> also find your comparison of Valve to the Nazi's to be very offensive.
> Please refrain from such hate mongering. You are not the victim here, the
> people that play the game and Valves public image are.
>
> Server rules... If they are to lengthy for a chat display they
> should be on a separate webpage, so just display the url to your servers
> web page. Most game host providers offer web space with the rental of a
> game server anyway.
>
>
>
> > From: coachcrock...@gmail.com
> > Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2013 19:13:10 -0400
>
> > To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com
> > Subject: Re: [hlds] TF2 MOTD and Quickplay
> >
> > Doctor, why don't you pay the $300-400 dedicated server bills and other
> expenses that server owners have to pay to keep their community running.
> >
> > It's as simple as this, a server forces you to see ads, leave it and
> don't come back. Why are you trying to be a Nazi government trying to
> control what server owners want to do.
> >
> > Look Valve, we pay for these servers okay. Dedicated servers aren't
> cheap, we need to make money to recovery costs. What you are basically
> doing is stunting one community's growth.
> >
> > If you continue to create features that will just add more and more
> restrictions for server owners, why don't you just become like one of the
> game publishers that don't even let users host dedicated servers.
> >
> > Just take away our server powers and how about this Valve? Why don't you
> just host all the servers for us and leave us the headache? How much extra
> server dollars will that cost you Valve, and also how much manpower will
> you need to maintain those 1000s of servers running plugins that people
> LOVE!
> >
> > It's easy for you to just toss up Vanilla servers in there with no
> configurations and setups but do realize the amount of hours and hardwork
> server owners put in their community. We build it from ground up. How would
> you like it Valve is "Example Gaming Regulation" told you, you can't push
> certain updates and release a set group of weapons and items.
> >
> > The point is this - we pay full cost for our communities, so let us do
> THINGS to cover for the cost. Otherwise, make srcds use less RAM and CPU so
> we don't have to buy expensive servers.
> >
> > I speak on behalf of many community owners who are irritated by people
> stirring up something every few weeks for no reason. Yeah I'm talking about
> you Doctor.
> >
> > Your TF2 would be NOTHING if it wasn't for us hard working community
> owners who provide great servers for your playerbase to play at.
> >
> >
> > ___
> > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
> please visit:
> > https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds
>
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Re: [hlds] TF2 MOTD and Quickplay

[Liquid Source]

WOW, cry harder Supreet. If money is a problem for you may I suggest you get a 
real job instead of glomming off of other people?! Destroying the reputation of 
a company such as Valve by posting crap information to gamers and changing the 
whole game experience is just bad for business. If Valve decides to remove the 
motd functionality to keep people from tarnishing their image I know hundreds 
of server owners that will stand behind them. I also find your comparison of 
Valve to the Nazi's to be very offensive. Please refrain from such hate 
mongering. You are not the victim here, the people that play the game and 
Valves public image are.
 
Server rules... If they are to lengthy for a chat display they should be on a 
separate webpage, so just display the url to your servers web page. Most game 
host providers offer web space with the rental of a game server anyway.
 

 
> From: coachcrock...@gmail.com
> Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2013 19:13:10 -0400
> To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com
> Subject: Re: [hlds] TF2 MOTD and Quickplay
> 
> Doctor, why don't you pay the $300-400 dedicated server bills and other 
> expenses that server owners have to pay to keep their community running.
> 
> It's as simple as this, a server forces you to see ads, leave it and don't 
> come back. Why are you trying to be a Nazi government trying to control what 
> server owners want to do.
> 
> Look Valve, we pay for these servers okay. Dedicated servers aren't cheap, we 
> need to make money to recovery costs. What you are basically doing is 
> stunting one community's growth.
> 
> If you continue to create features that will just add more and more 
> restrictions for server owners, why don't you just become like one of the 
> game publishers that don't even let users host dedicated servers. 
> 
> Just take away our server powers and how about this Valve? Why don't you just 
> host all the servers for us and leave us the headache? How much extra server 
> dollars will that cost you Valve, and also how much manpower will you need to 
> maintain those 1000s of servers running plugins that people LOVE! 
> 
> It's easy for you to just toss up Vanilla servers in there with no 
> configurations and setups but do realize the amount of hours and hardwork 
> server owners put in their community. We build it from ground up. How would 
> you like it Valve is "Example Gaming Regulation" told you, you can't push 
> certain updates and release a set group of weapons and items.
> 
> The point is this - we pay full cost for our communities, so let us do THINGS 
> to cover for the cost. Otherwise, make srcds use less RAM and CPU so we don't 
> have to buy expensive servers.
> 
> I speak on behalf of many community owners who are irritated by people 
> stirring up something every few weeks for no reason. Yeah I'm talking about 
> you Doctor. 
> 
> Your TF2 would be NOTHING if it wasn't for us hard working community owners 
> who provide great servers for your playerbase to play at.
> 
> 
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Re: [hlds] TF2 MOTD and Quickplay

[Paul]

A typically selfish and rather ignorant viewpoint.

Supreet Sahni has a completely valid point, and as I say, causing anymore
restrictions at the cost of breaking more genuine functionality is just
going to kill TF2 as players and server owners are going to become tired of
it (or equally not be able to afford it if things like Pinion are
completely stopped from working).

Simple answer is just to stop whining about the minor (if any) amount of
servers that may have this sort of issue and just to blacklist them, report
them and move on! Valve have better things to do for their games (such as
TF2 in this case) than read messages with people literally crying or trying
to be power freaks.


On 17 June 2013 00:12, Valve Monkey  wrote:

>
> Very tired of this damn topic. I vote to get rid of motd altogether and
> end this madness.
>
> motd is one of the least useful things on my servers and not one community
> member would miss it not being there. I just did a quick survey of my
> community players and it was unanimous to just remove the ability of bad
> servers to screw up their game or collect secret information about them.
>
> never really understood why a game web page being displayed was needed or
> wanted. people click join to play not to read some servers gibberish about
> whatever.
>
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Re: [hlds] TF2 MOTD and Quickplay

[Nomaan Ahmad]

If motd is least useful for your server, you can prevent it from opening on
your server when player joins. There is no need to force others with your
opinion on this tbh.

On 17 June 2013 00:12, Valve Monkey  wrote:

>
> Very tired of this damn topic. I vote to get rid of motd altogether and
> end this madness.
>
> motd is one of the least useful things on my servers and not one community
> member would miss it not being there. I just did a quick survey of my
> community players and it was unanimous to just remove the ability of bad
> servers to screw up their game or collect secret information about them.
>
> never really understood why a game web page being displayed was needed or
> wanted. people click join to play not to read some servers gibberish about
> whatever.
>
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> please visit:
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Re: [hlds] TF2 MOTD and Quickplay

[Supreet Sahni]

Doctor, why don't you pay the $300-400 dedicated server bills and other 
expenses that server owners have to pay to keep their community running.

It's as simple as this, a server forces you to see ads, leave it and don't come 
back. Why are you trying to be a Nazi government trying to control what server 
owners want to do.

Look Valve, we pay for these servers okay. Dedicated servers aren't cheap, we 
need to make money to recovery costs. What you are basically doing is stunting 
one community's growth.

If you continue to create features that will just add more and more 
restrictions for server owners, why don't you just become like one of the game 
publishers that don't even let users host dedicated servers. 

Just take away our server powers and how about this Valve? Why don't you just 
host all the servers for us and leave us the headache? How much extra server 
dollars will that cost you Valve, and also how much manpower will you need to 
maintain those 1000s of servers running plugins that people LOVE! 

It's easy for you to just toss up Vanilla servers in there with no 
configurations and setups but do realize the amount of hours and hardwork 
server owners put in their community. We build it from ground up. How would you 
like it Valve is "Example Gaming Regulation" told you, you can't push certain 
updates and release a set group of weapons and items.

The point is this - we pay full cost for our communities, so let us do THINGS 
to cover for the cost. Otherwise, make srcds use less RAM and CPU so we don't 
have to buy expensive servers.

I speak on behalf of many community owners who are irritated by people stirring 
up something every few weeks for no reason. Yeah I'm talking about you Doctor. 

Your TF2 would be NOTHING if it wasn't for us hard working community owners who 
provide great servers for your playerbase to play at.


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Re: [hlds] TF2 MOTD and Quickplay

[Valve Monkey]

 Very tired of this damn topic. I vote to get rid of motd altogether and end 
this madness. 
 
motd is one of the least useful things on my servers and not one community 
member would miss it not being there. I just did a quick survey of my community 
players and it was unanimous to just remove the ability of bad servers to screw 
up their game or collect secret information about them.
 
never really understood why a game web page being displayed was needed or 
wanted. people click join to play not to read some servers gibberish about 
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Re: [hlds] TF2 MOTD and Quickplay

[N-Gon]

Some servers (Like mine) use the MOTD to display Server Rules rather than
flooding said rules in chat every couple of minutes. Players see it upon
entering and can check them out any time with !motd.
Why should I have my players visit a webpage to check out the rules? Why
should I have to have the rules spammed in chat every few minutes? That
detracts from the game.


On Sun, Jun 16, 2013 at 6:52 PM, Paul  wrote:

> I just don't understand why this is such a big issue that a minority are
> making it out to be. Simple answer is if you encounter such a server then
> leave that server, blacklist it, report it and then move on. If such a
> server exists then I'm sure it's a very minor amount out of all the QP/MM
> servers out there. Don't go ruining it for others who use the MOTD for
> genuine purposes as that just encourages people to eventually give up
> playing the game and moving on to something else like Dota.
>
>
> On 16 June 2013 23:37, Liquid Source  wrote:
>
>> You claim 'Harsh Treatment' in the defense of hi-jacking peoples game
>> experience, REALLY? It's obviously an abuse hidden in background
>> subterfuge. If you are collecting information about visitors then do it in
>> the light of day, such as displaying in chat a survey page url or similar.
>> Log files can also be uploaded and shared with stat tracking sites without
>> disturbing client gamers.
>>
>> Game Menus and MOTD are not the same thing, I must commend you for a
>> valiant attempt at mudding the waters.
>>
>> In-game music players really? There are so many other and better
>> options that don't absorb bandwidth that the fact that you bring this up as
>> an argument only presents evidence that you are intentionally attempting to
>> ruin game experience or are just ignorant of how online games work.
>>
>> I'm not the only one that finds this a detraction from my gaming
>> experience otherwise this issue wouldn't keep be brought up in this list.
>> It's like everything in real life, it's great until it gets abused then the
>> powers that be need to step in and remove the source of the issue. <--I'm
>> talking about the ability of server ops displaying MOTD's here.
>>
>> If you truly believe that the ability of server ops to display an MOTD or
>> similar, adds value for players then you can code your own mod that has it
>> and let the community vote by joining (or not) your modified server.
>>
>> PEACE AND LOVE
>>
>>
>> --
>> From: nextra...@gmail.com
>> Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2013 00:07:38 +0200
>> To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com
>> Subject: Re: [hlds] TF2 MOTD and Quickplay
>>
>>
>> We never run ads on our servers and only use the MOTD for our quite
>> popular ingame radio and gameME statistics.
>>
>> Not having the MOTD and with no way to gracefully handle the situation
>> for the server *or* the client this restriction is just a nuisance.
>>
>> Valve has had a stance for the "don't like it, don't play there" policy
>> on other topics, why does this get such a harsh treatment when even
>> official partners like Pinion are suffering?
>>
>> Not even mentioning that this fix went to an extreme where even the
>> opening MOTD, which is *required* to even join the game, can be
>> inadvertently blocked for quickplay players.
>>
>>
>> Just because *you* don't use MOTDs for anything useful doesn't qualify
>> you to judge everyone elses use case. And no, a reasonable intro ad is not
>> abusive. At all.
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Jun 16, 2013 at 11:49 PM, Liquid Source <
>> liquid.sou...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Just dump the motd altogether.
>>
>> A) Most of us are sick and tired of our gaming experience being hijacked
>> by unscrupulous server ops.
>> B) This topic is a virus to these mailing lists.
>> C) The supporters of the MOTD Abuse and Game Hi-jacking are just trolling
>> this list.
>> D) MOTD has nothing to do with the actual game.
>> E) Valve doesn't have the in house skill to actually resolve the MOTD
>> abuse issue.
>> F) Any messages the server op wants people to see can be sent via in-game
>> chat.
>>
>>
>> PEACE AND LOVE
>>
>> ___
>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
>> please visit:
>> https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds
>>
>>
>>
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Re: [hlds] TF2 MOTD and Quickplay

[Paul]

I just don't understand why this is such a big issue that a minority are
making it out to be. Simple answer is if you encounter such a server then
leave that server, blacklist it, report it and then move on. If such a
server exists then I'm sure it's a very minor amount out of all the QP/MM
servers out there. Don't go ruining it for others who use the MOTD for
genuine purposes as that just encourages people to eventually give up
playing the game and moving on to something else like Dota.


On 16 June 2013 23:37, Liquid Source  wrote:

> You claim 'Harsh Treatment' in the defense of hi-jacking peoples game
> experience, REALLY? It's obviously an abuse hidden in background
> subterfuge. If you are collecting information about visitors then do it in
> the light of day, such as displaying in chat a survey page url or similar.
> Log files can also be uploaded and shared with stat tracking sites without
> disturbing client gamers.
>
> Game Menus and MOTD are not the same thing, I must commend you for a
> valiant attempt at mudding the waters.
>
> In-game music players really? There are so many other and better
> options that don't absorb bandwidth that the fact that you bring this up as
> an argument only presents evidence that you are intentionally attempting to
> ruin game experience or are just ignorant of how online games work.
>
> I'm not the only one that finds this a detraction from my gaming
> experience otherwise this issue wouldn't keep be brought up in this list.
> It's like everything in real life, it's great until it gets abused then the
> powers that be need to step in and remove the source of the issue. <--I'm
> talking about the ability of server ops displaying MOTD's here.
>
> If you truly believe that the ability of server ops to display an MOTD or
> similar, adds value for players then you can code your own mod that has it
> and let the community vote by joining (or not) your modified server.
>
> PEACE AND LOVE
>
>
> ----------
> From: nextra...@gmail.com
> Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2013 00:07:38 +0200
> To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com
> Subject: Re: [hlds] TF2 MOTD and Quickplay
>
>
> We never run ads on our servers and only use the MOTD for our quite
> popular ingame radio and gameME statistics.
>
> Not having the MOTD and with no way to gracefully handle the situation for
> the server *or* the client this restriction is just a nuisance.
>
> Valve has had a stance for the "don't like it, don't play there" policy on
> other topics, why does this get such a harsh treatment when even official
> partners like Pinion are suffering?
>
> Not even mentioning that this fix went to an extreme where even the
> opening MOTD, which is *required* to even join the game, can be
> inadvertently blocked for quickplay players.
>
>
> Just because *you* don't use MOTDs for anything useful doesn't qualify you
> to judge everyone elses use case. And no, a reasonable intro ad is not
> abusive. At all.
>
>
> On Sun, Jun 16, 2013 at 11:49 PM, Liquid Source  > wrote:
>
> Just dump the motd altogether.
>
> A) Most of us are sick and tired of our gaming experience being hijacked
> by unscrupulous server ops.
> B) This topic is a virus to these mailing lists.
> C) The supporters of the MOTD Abuse and Game Hi-jacking are just trolling
> this list.
> D) MOTD has nothing to do with the actual game.
> E) Valve doesn't have the in house skill to actually resolve the MOTD
> abuse issue.
> F) Any messages the server op wants people to see can be sent via in-game
> chat.
>
>
> PEACE AND LOVE
>
> ___
> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
> please visit:
> https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds
>
>
>
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Re: [hlds] TF2 MOTD and Quickplay

[Liquid Source]

You claim 'Harsh Treatment' in the defense of hi-jacking peoples game 
experience, REALLY? It's obviously an abuse hidden in background subterfuge. If 
you are collecting information about visitors then do it in the light of day, 
such as displaying in chat a survey page url or similar. Log files can also be 
uploaded and shared with stat tracking sites without disturbing client gamers.
 
Game Menus and MOTD are not the same thing, I must commend you for a valiant 
attempt at mudding the waters. 
 
In-game music players really? There are so many other and better options that 
don't absorb bandwidth that the fact that you bring this up as an argument only 
presents evidence that you are intentionally attempting to ruin game experience 
or are just ignorant of how online games work.

I'm not the only one that finds this a detraction from my gaming experience 
otherwise this issue wouldn't keep be brought up in this list. It's like 
everything in real life, it's great until it gets abused then the powers that 
be need to step in and remove the source of the issue. <--I'm talking about the 
ability of server ops displaying MOTD's here.
 
If you truly believe that the ability of server ops to display an MOTD or 
similar, adds value for players then you can code your own mod that has it and 
let the community vote by joining (or not) your modified server.
 
PEACE AND LOVE
 
 
From: nextra...@gmail.com
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2013 00:07:38 +0200
To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com
Subject: Re: [hlds] TF2 MOTD and Quickplay

We never run ads on our servers and only use the MOTD for our quite popular 
ingame radio and gameME statistics.
Not having the MOTD and with no way to gracefully handle the situation for the 
server *or* the client this restriction is just a nuisance.



Valve has had a stance for the "don't like it, don't play there" policy on 
other topics, why does this get such a harsh treatment when even official 
partners like Pinion are suffering?



Not even mentioning that this fix went to an extreme where even the opening 
MOTD, which is *required* to even join the game, can be inadvertently blocked 
for quickplay players.




Just because *you* don't use MOTDs for anything useful doesn't qualify you to 
judge everyone elses use case. And no, a reasonable intro ad is not abusive. At 
all.




On Sun, Jun 16, 2013 at 11:49 PM, Liquid Source  
wrote:






Just dump the motd altogether. 

A) Most of us are sick and tired of our gaming experience being hijacked by 
unscrupulous server ops.
B) This topic is a virus to these mailing lists.
C) The supporters of the MOTD Abuse and Game Hi-jacking are just trolling this 
list.



D) MOTD has nothing to do with the actual game.
E) Valve doesn't have the in house skill to actually resolve the MOTD abuse 
issue.
F) Any messages the server op wants people to see can be sent via in-game chat.



 
 
PEACE AND LOVE
  

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Re: [hlds] TF2 MOTD and Quickplay

[Valentin G.]

We never run ads on our servers and only use the MOTD for our quite popular
ingame radio and gameME statistics.

Not having the MOTD and with no way to gracefully handle the situation for
the server *or* the client this restriction is just a nuisance.

Valve has had a stance for the "don't like it, don't play there" policy on
other topics, why does this get such a harsh treatment when even official
partners like Pinion are suffering?

Not even mentioning that this fix went to an extreme where even the opening
MOTD, which is *required* to even join the game, can be
inadvertently blocked for quickplay players.


Just because *you* don't use MOTDs for anything useful doesn't qualify you
to judge everyone elses use case. And no, a reasonable intro ad is not
abusive. At all.


On Sun, Jun 16, 2013 at 11:49 PM, Liquid Source
wrote:

> Just dump the motd altogether.
>
> A) Most of us are sick and tired of our gaming experience being hijacked
> by unscrupulous server ops.
> B) This topic is a virus to these mailing lists.
> C) The supporters of the MOTD Abuse and Game Hi-jacking are just trolling
> this list.
> D) MOTD has nothing to do with the actual game.
> E) Valve doesn't have the in house skill to actually resolve the MOTD
> abuse issue.
> F) Any messages the server op wants people to see can be sent via in-game
> chat.
>
>
> PEACE AND LOVE
>
> ___
> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
> please visit:
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>
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Re: [hlds] TF2 MOTD and Quickplay

[Liquid Source]

Just dump the motd altogether. 

A) Most of us are sick and tired of our gaming experience being hijacked by 
unscrupulous server ops.
B) This topic is a virus to these mailing lists.
C) The supporters of the MOTD Abuse and Game Hi-jacking are just trolling this 
list.
D) MOTD has nothing to do with the actual game.
E) Valve doesn't have the in house skill to actually resolve the MOTD abuse 
issue.
F) Any messages the server op wants people to see can be sent via in-game chat.
 
 
PEACE AND LOVE
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Re: [hlds] TF2 MOTD and Quickplay

[ics]

Read his post again, he's talking about servers that reopen window to 
display advertisements. Hes not talking about removing html motd.


-ics

Valentin G. kirjoitti:
Or just let players report and leave these servers. There are several 
legit reasons for HTML MOTDs.



On Sun, Jun 16, 2013 at 9:19 PM, Doctor McKay > wrote:


As I'm sure most are aware, a little while ago Valve changed the
TF2 MOTD panel so that it can't be reopened by the server if the
client joins via Quickplay (or using the matchmaking argument on
the connect command). However, this just prevents the MOTD panel
itself from redisplaying. The server can still open pages in the
client's MOTD panel in the background.

This means that the server can still spam traffic-to-cash URLs on
clients, many of which have noise-making Flash embedded or which
open popup windows using JavaScript. In order to maintain the
"sterile bubble" in Quickplay, Valve might want to consider
preventing servers from opening webpages on Quickplay-joining
clients entirely, not just preventing the panel from being
redisplayed.



Doctor McKay
http://www.doctormckay.com
mc...@doctormckay.com 

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Re: [hlds] TF2 MOTD and Quickplay

[1nsane]

I know that Pinion asked Valve to add the ability to detect if a player
connects from quickplay. It hasn't happened yet but it should.

Pinion would need this functionality in order to keep their average
impressions higher.
And we could use this for other things, such as tracking how many people
connect through quickplay and how many through other methods.


On Sun, Jun 16, 2013 at 3:41 PM, Doctor McKay  wrote:

> The problem is, many players are apparently incapable of pressing the F7
> button, which led Valve to cripple it in the first place.
>
> I mainly want Valve to prevent MOTDs from being loaded on Quickplay
> clients so that I can detect if the client joined from Quickplay or not
> (force the client to load a hidden page, then check if the page was
> loaded). If there was some way to detect this, then I wouldn't necessarily
> want this change to be made.
>
> As it stands, however, there is no way to determine whether or not a
> client is able to view an MOTD window.
>
>
>
> Doctor McKay
> http://www.doctormckay.com
> mc...@doctormckay.com
>
>
> On Sun, Jun 16, 2013 at 3:36 PM, Paul  wrote:
>
>> This idea would cripple functionality for radio on quickplay servers,
>> just being one example of something it would further ruin for TF2 if such a
>> restriction was imposed. I myself can't say I've come across servers like
>> this, and if there are any then I imagine it's a mere handful (minor
>> percentage of all QP servers). All players have to do in such instances of
>> finding a server is just blacklist it and/or report it in-game, case
>> closed. Alternatively if something is decided to be done in view of one
>> complaint then disabling window.open would eliminate any new windows that
>> you might be talking about even if that's the case. As I say, I haven't
>> found this when going on servers myself.
>>
>>
>> On 16 June 2013 20:19, Doctor McKay  wrote:
>>
>>> As I'm sure most are aware, a little while ago Valve changed the TF2
>>> MOTD panel so that it can't be reopened by the server if the client joins
>>> via Quickplay (or using the matchmaking argument on the connect command).
>>> However, this just prevents the MOTD panel itself from redisplaying. The
>>> server can still open pages in the client's MOTD panel in the background.
>>>
>>> This means that the server can still spam traffic-to-cash URLs on
>>> clients, many of which have noise-making Flash embedded or which open popup
>>> windows using JavaScript. In order to maintain the "sterile bubble" in
>>> Quickplay, Valve might want to consider preventing servers from opening
>>> webpages on Quickplay-joining clients entirely, not just preventing the
>>> panel from being redisplayed.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Doctor McKay
>>> http://www.doctormckay.com
>>> mc...@doctormckay.com
>>>
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>>> please visit:
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>>>
>>
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Re: [hlds] TF2 MOTD and Quickplay

[Doctor McKay]

This is one benefit, but I was mainly planning on releasing a plugin that
allows other plugins to determine a client's MOTD state. For instance, if a
client types a chat trigger to open your community's website, you could
determine that they've joined via Quickplay and print the URL to chat
instead.

N-Gon is correct in that none of my servers run ads (I got rid of Pinion
shortly before they implemented the forced waiting timer). It would
certainly be good to know how effective Quickplay is, and this is one way
to do it.



Doctor McKay
http://www.doctormckay.com
mc...@doctormckay.com


On Sun, Jun 16, 2013 at 3:51 PM, N-Gon  wrote:

> I've played on his servers, no Ads. Some of you can be so negative.
> He probably just wants to see how useful/efficient Quickplay is, or how
> many of his clients join from the Server Menu or Favorites
>
>
> On Sun, Jun 16, 2013 at 3:49 PM, Ross Bemrose  wrote:
>
>>  Question: Why do you need to know that information?
>> Answer: You don't... unless you plan on doing things like blocking
>> players that can't view your ads or some other such nonsense.
>>
>>
>> On 6/16/2013 3:48 PM, N-Gon wrote:
>>
>> How is that annoying? What he wants to do doesn't affect the client in
>> any way, it just let's him know which join from Quickplay and which
>> didn't...
>>
>>
>>  On Sun, Jun 16, 2013 at 3:45 PM, Ross Bemrose wrote:
>>
>>>  So... you want them to fix a bug to stop annoying things... and in
>>> doing so allow you to do completely different annoying things?
>>>
>>> On 6/16/2013 3:41 PM, Doctor McKay wrote:
>>>
>>>  The problem is, many players are apparently incapable of pressing the
>>> F7 button, which led Valve to cripple it in the first place.
>>>
>>>  I mainly want Valve to prevent MOTDs from being loaded on Quickplay
>>> clients so that I can detect if the client joined from Quickplay or not
>>> (force the client to load a hidden page, then check if the page was
>>> loaded). If there was some way to detect this, then I wouldn't necessarily
>>> want this change to be made.
>>>
>>>  As it stands, however, there is no way to determine whether or not a
>>> client is able to view an MOTD window.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  Doctor McKay
>>> http://www.doctormckay.com
>>> mc...@doctormckay.com
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, Jun 16, 2013 at 3:36 PM, Paul  wrote:
>>>
 This idea would cripple functionality for radio on quickplay servers,
 just being one example of something it would further ruin for TF2 if such a
 restriction was imposed. I myself can't say I've come across servers like
 this, and if there are any then I imagine it's a mere handful (minor
 percentage of all QP servers). All players have to do in such instances of
 finding a server is just blacklist it and/or report it in-game, case
 closed. Alternatively if something is decided to be done in view of one
 complaint then disabling window.open would eliminate any new windows that
 you might be talking about even if that's the case. As I say, I haven't
 found this when going on servers myself.


  On 16 June 2013 20:19, Doctor McKay  wrote:

>   As I'm sure most are aware, a little while ago Valve changed the
> TF2 MOTD panel so that it can't be reopened by the server if the client
> joins via Quickplay (or using the matchmaking argument on the connect
> command). However, this just prevents the MOTD panel itself from
> redisplaying. The server can still open pages in the client's MOTD panel 
> in
> the background.
>
>  This means that the server can still spam traffic-to-cash URLs on
> clients, many of which have noise-making Flash embedded or which open 
> popup
> windows using JavaScript. In order to maintain the "sterile bubble" in
> Quickplay, Valve might want to consider preventing servers from opening
> webpages on Quickplay-joining clients entirely, not just preventing the
> panel from being redisplayed.
>
>
>
>  Doctor McKay
> http://www.doctormckay.com
> mc...@doctormckay.com
>
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>

 ___
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>>>
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>>
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>> _

Re: [hlds] TF2 MOTD and Quickplay

[Ross Bemrose]

He may be the perfect paragon of virtue.

Too bad this change would affect all servers, not just his.

On 6/16/2013 3:51 PM, N-Gon wrote:

I've played on his servers, no Ads. Some of you can be so negative.
He probably just wants to see how useful/efficient Quickplay is, or 
how many of his clients join from the Server Menu or Favorites



On Sun, Jun 16, 2013 at 3:49 PM, Ross Bemrose > wrote:


Question: Why do you need to know that information?
Answer: You don't... unless you plan on doing things like blocking
players that can't view your ads or some other such nonsense.


On 6/16/2013 3:48 PM, N-Gon wrote:

How is that annoying? What he wants to do doesn't affect the
client in any way, it just let's him know which join from
Quickplay and which didn't...


On Sun, Jun 16, 2013 at 3:45 PM, Ross Bemrose mailto:rbemr...@gmail.com>> wrote:

So... you want them to fix a bug to stop annoying things...
and in doing so allow you to do completely different annoying
things?

On 6/16/2013 3:41 PM, Doctor McKay wrote:

The problem is, many players are apparently incapable of
pressing the F7 button, which led Valve to cripple it in the
first place.

I mainly want Valve to prevent MOTDs from being loaded on
Quickplay clients so that I can detect if the client joined
from Quickplay or not (force the client to load a hidden
page, then check if the page was loaded). If there was some
way to detect this, then I wouldn't necessarily want this
change to be made.

As it stands, however, there is no way to determine whether
or not a client is able to view an MOTD window.



Doctor McKay
http://www.doctormckay.com
mc...@doctormckay.com 


On Sun, Jun 16, 2013 at 3:36 PM, Paul mailto:ubyu@gmail.com>> wrote:

This idea would cripple functionality for radio on
quickplay servers, just being one example of something
it would further ruin for TF2 if such a restriction was
imposed. I myself can't say I've come across servers
like this, and if there are any then I imagine it's a
mere handful (minor percentage of all QP servers). All
players have to do in such instances of finding a server
is just blacklist it and/or report it in-game, case
closed. Alternatively if something is decided to be done
in view of one complaint then disabling window.open
would eliminate any new windows that you might be
talking about even if that's the case. As I say, I
haven't found this when going on servers myself.


On 16 June 2013 20:19, Doctor McKay
mailto:mc...@doctormckay.com>>
wrote:

As I'm sure most are aware, a little while ago Valve
changed the TF2 MOTD panel so that it can't be
reopened by the server if the client joins via
Quickplay (or using the matchmaking argument on the
connect command). However, this just prevents the
MOTD panel itself from redisplaying. The server can
still open pages in the client's MOTD panel in the
background.

This means that the server can still spam
traffic-to-cash URLs on clients, many of which have
noise-making Flash embedded or which open popup
windows using JavaScript. In order to maintain the
"sterile bubble" in Quickplay, Valve might want to
consider preventing servers from opening webpages on
Quickplay-joining clients entirely, not just
preventing the panel from being redisplayed.



Doctor McKay
http://www.doctormckay.com
mc...@doctormckay.com 

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Re: [hlds] TF2 MOTD and Quickplay

[N-Gon]

I've played on his servers, no Ads. Some of you can be so negative.
He probably just wants to see how useful/efficient Quickplay is, or how
many of his clients join from the Server Menu or Favorites


On Sun, Jun 16, 2013 at 3:49 PM, Ross Bemrose  wrote:

>  Question: Why do you need to know that information?
> Answer: You don't... unless you plan on doing things like blocking players
> that can't view your ads or some other such nonsense.
>
>
> On 6/16/2013 3:48 PM, N-Gon wrote:
>
> How is that annoying? What he wants to do doesn't affect the client in any
> way, it just let's him know which join from Quickplay and which didn't...
>
>
>  On Sun, Jun 16, 2013 at 3:45 PM, Ross Bemrose  wrote:
>
>>  So... you want them to fix a bug to stop annoying things... and in
>> doing so allow you to do completely different annoying things?
>>
>> On 6/16/2013 3:41 PM, Doctor McKay wrote:
>>
>>  The problem is, many players are apparently incapable of pressing the
>> F7 button, which led Valve to cripple it in the first place.
>>
>>  I mainly want Valve to prevent MOTDs from being loaded on Quickplay
>> clients so that I can detect if the client joined from Quickplay or not
>> (force the client to load a hidden page, then check if the page was
>> loaded). If there was some way to detect this, then I wouldn't necessarily
>> want this change to be made.
>>
>>  As it stands, however, there is no way to determine whether or not a
>> client is able to view an MOTD window.
>>
>>
>>
>>  Doctor McKay
>> http://www.doctormckay.com
>> mc...@doctormckay.com
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Jun 16, 2013 at 3:36 PM, Paul  wrote:
>>
>>> This idea would cripple functionality for radio on quickplay servers,
>>> just being one example of something it would further ruin for TF2 if such a
>>> restriction was imposed. I myself can't say I've come across servers like
>>> this, and if there are any then I imagine it's a mere handful (minor
>>> percentage of all QP servers). All players have to do in such instances of
>>> finding a server is just blacklist it and/or report it in-game, case
>>> closed. Alternatively if something is decided to be done in view of one
>>> complaint then disabling window.open would eliminate any new windows that
>>> you might be talking about even if that's the case. As I say, I haven't
>>> found this when going on servers myself.
>>>
>>>
>>>  On 16 June 2013 20:19, Doctor McKay  wrote:
>>>
   As I'm sure most are aware, a little while ago Valve changed the TF2
 MOTD panel so that it can't be reopened by the server if the client joins
 via Quickplay (or using the matchmaking argument on the connect command).
 However, this just prevents the MOTD panel itself from redisplaying. The
 server can still open pages in the client's MOTD panel in the background.

  This means that the server can still spam traffic-to-cash URLs on
 clients, many of which have noise-making Flash embedded or which open popup
 windows using JavaScript. In order to maintain the "sterile bubble" in
 Quickplay, Valve might want to consider preventing servers from opening
 webpages on Quickplay-joining clients entirely, not just preventing the
 panel from being redisplayed.



  Doctor McKay
 http://www.doctormckay.com
 mc...@doctormckay.com

  ___
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 please visit:
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>>
>>
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Re: [hlds] TF2 MOTD and Quickplay

[Ross Bemrose]

Question: Why do you need to know that information?
Answer: You don't... unless you plan on doing things like blocking 
players that can't view your ads or some other such nonsense.


On 6/16/2013 3:48 PM, N-Gon wrote:
How is that annoying? What he wants to do doesn't affect the client in 
any way, it just let's him know which join from Quickplay and which 
didn't...



On Sun, Jun 16, 2013 at 3:45 PM, Ross Bemrose > wrote:


So... you want them to fix a bug to stop annoying things... and in
doing so allow you to do completely different annoying things?

On 6/16/2013 3:41 PM, Doctor McKay wrote:

The problem is, many players are apparently incapable of pressing
the F7 button, which led Valve to cripple it in the first place.

I mainly want Valve to prevent MOTDs from being loaded on
Quickplay clients so that I can detect if the client joined from
Quickplay or not (force the client to load a hidden page, then
check if the page was loaded). If there was some way to detect
this, then I wouldn't necessarily want this change to be made.

As it stands, however, there is no way to determine whether or
not a client is able to view an MOTD window.



Doctor McKay
http://www.doctormckay.com
mc...@doctormckay.com 


On Sun, Jun 16, 2013 at 3:36 PM, Paul mailto:ubyu@gmail.com>> wrote:

This idea would cripple functionality for radio on quickplay
servers, just being one example of something it would further
ruin for TF2 if such a restriction was imposed. I myself
can't say I've come across servers like this, and if there
are any then I imagine it's a mere handful (minor percentage
of all QP servers). All players have to do in such instances
of finding a server is just blacklist it and/or report it
in-game, case closed. Alternatively if something is decided
to be done in view of one complaint then disabling
window.open would eliminate any new windows that you might be
talking about even if that's the case. As I say, I haven't
found this when going on servers myself.


On 16 June 2013 20:19, Doctor McKay mailto:mc...@doctormckay.com>> wrote:

As I'm sure most are aware, a little while ago Valve
changed the TF2 MOTD panel so that it can't be reopened
by the server if the client joins via Quickplay (or using
the matchmaking argument on the connect command).
However, this just prevents the MOTD panel itself from
redisplaying. The server can still open pages in the
client's MOTD panel in the background.

This means that the server can still spam traffic-to-cash
URLs on clients, many of which have noise-making Flash
embedded or which open popup windows using JavaScript. In
order to maintain the "sterile bubble" in Quickplay,
Valve might want to consider preventing servers from
opening webpages on Quickplay-joining clients entirely,
not just preventing the panel from being redisplayed.



Doctor McKay
http://www.doctormckay.com
mc...@doctormckay.com 

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Re: [hlds] TF2 MOTD and Quickplay

[N-Gon]

How is that annoying? What he wants to do doesn't affect the client in any
way, it just let's him know which join from Quickplay and which didn't...


On Sun, Jun 16, 2013 at 3:45 PM, Ross Bemrose  wrote:

>  So... you want them to fix a bug to stop annoying things... and in doing
> so allow you to do completely different annoying things?
>
> On 6/16/2013 3:41 PM, Doctor McKay wrote:
>
>  The problem is, many players are apparently incapable of pressing the F7
> button, which led Valve to cripple it in the first place.
>
>  I mainly want Valve to prevent MOTDs from being loaded on Quickplay
> clients so that I can detect if the client joined from Quickplay or not
> (force the client to load a hidden page, then check if the page was
> loaded). If there was some way to detect this, then I wouldn't necessarily
> want this change to be made.
>
>  As it stands, however, there is no way to determine whether or not a
> client is able to view an MOTD window.
>
>
>
>  Doctor McKay
> http://www.doctormckay.com
> mc...@doctormckay.com
>
>
> On Sun, Jun 16, 2013 at 3:36 PM, Paul  wrote:
>
>> This idea would cripple functionality for radio on quickplay servers,
>> just being one example of something it would further ruin for TF2 if such a
>> restriction was imposed. I myself can't say I've come across servers like
>> this, and if there are any then I imagine it's a mere handful (minor
>> percentage of all QP servers). All players have to do in such instances of
>> finding a server is just blacklist it and/or report it in-game, case
>> closed. Alternatively if something is decided to be done in view of one
>> complaint then disabling window.open would eliminate any new windows that
>> you might be talking about even if that's the case. As I say, I haven't
>> found this when going on servers myself.
>>
>>
>>  On 16 June 2013 20:19, Doctor McKay  wrote:
>>
>>>   As I'm sure most are aware, a little while ago Valve changed the TF2
>>> MOTD panel so that it can't be reopened by the server if the client joins
>>> via Quickplay (or using the matchmaking argument on the connect command).
>>> However, this just prevents the MOTD panel itself from redisplaying. The
>>> server can still open pages in the client's MOTD panel in the background.
>>>
>>>  This means that the server can still spam traffic-to-cash URLs on
>>> clients, many of which have noise-making Flash embedded or which open popup
>>> windows using JavaScript. In order to maintain the "sterile bubble" in
>>> Quickplay, Valve might want to consider preventing servers from opening
>>> webpages on Quickplay-joining clients entirely, not just preventing the
>>> panel from being redisplayed.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  Doctor McKay
>>> http://www.doctormckay.com
>>> mc...@doctormckay.com
>>>
>>>  ___
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>>> please visit:
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>>>
>>
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Re: [hlds] TF2 MOTD and Quickplay

[Ross Bemrose]

So... you want them to fix a bug to stop annoying things... and in doing 
so allow you to do completely different annoying things?


On 6/16/2013 3:41 PM, Doctor McKay wrote:
The problem is, many players are apparently incapable of pressing the 
F7 button, which led Valve to cripple it in the first place.


I mainly want Valve to prevent MOTDs from being loaded on Quickplay 
clients so that I can detect if the client joined from Quickplay or 
not (force the client to load a hidden page, then check if the page 
was loaded). If there was some way to detect this, then I wouldn't 
necessarily want this change to be made.


As it stands, however, there is no way to determine whether or not a 
client is able to view an MOTD window.




Doctor McKay
http://www.doctormckay.com
mc...@doctormckay.com 


On Sun, Jun 16, 2013 at 3:36 PM, Paul > wrote:


This idea would cripple functionality for radio on quickplay
servers, just being one example of something it would further ruin
for TF2 if such a restriction was imposed. I myself can't say I've
come across servers like this, and if there are any then I imagine
it's a mere handful (minor percentage of all QP servers). All
players have to do in such instances of finding a server is just
blacklist it and/or report it in-game, case closed. Alternatively
if something is decided to be done in view of one complaint then
disabling window.open would eliminate any new windows that you
might be talking about even if that's the case. As I say, I
haven't found this when going on servers myself.


On 16 June 2013 20:19, Doctor McKay mailto:mc...@doctormckay.com>> wrote:

As I'm sure most are aware, a little while ago Valve changed
the TF2 MOTD panel so that it can't be reopened by the server
if the client joins via Quickplay (or using the matchmaking
argument on the connect command). However, this just prevents
the MOTD panel itself from redisplaying. The server can still
open pages in the client's MOTD panel in the background.

This means that the server can still spam traffic-to-cash URLs
on clients, many of which have noise-making Flash embedded or
which open popup windows using JavaScript. In order to
maintain the "sterile bubble" in Quickplay, Valve might want
to consider preventing servers from opening webpages on
Quickplay-joining clients entirely, not just preventing the
panel from being redisplayed.



Doctor McKay
http://www.doctormckay.com
mc...@doctormckay.com 

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Re: [hlds] TF2 MOTD and Quickplay

[Doctor McKay]

The problem is, many players are apparently incapable of pressing the F7
button, which led Valve to cripple it in the first place.

I mainly want Valve to prevent MOTDs from being loaded on Quickplay clients
so that I can detect if the client joined from Quickplay or not (force the
client to load a hidden page, then check if the page was loaded). If there
was some way to detect this, then I wouldn't necessarily want this change
to be made.

As it stands, however, there is no way to determine whether or not a client
is able to view an MOTD window.



Doctor McKay
http://www.doctormckay.com
mc...@doctormckay.com


On Sun, Jun 16, 2013 at 3:36 PM, Paul  wrote:

> This idea would cripple functionality for radio on quickplay servers, just
> being one example of something it would further ruin for TF2 if such a
> restriction was imposed. I myself can't say I've come across servers like
> this, and if there are any then I imagine it's a mere handful (minor
> percentage of all QP servers). All players have to do in such instances of
> finding a server is just blacklist it and/or report it in-game, case
> closed. Alternatively if something is decided to be done in view of one
> complaint then disabling window.open would eliminate any new windows that
> you might be talking about even if that's the case. As I say, I haven't
> found this when going on servers myself.
>
>
> On 16 June 2013 20:19, Doctor McKay  wrote:
>
>> As I'm sure most are aware, a little while ago Valve changed the TF2 MOTD
>> panel so that it can't be reopened by the server if the client joins via
>> Quickplay (or using the matchmaking argument on the connect command).
>> However, this just prevents the MOTD panel itself from redisplaying. The
>> server can still open pages in the client's MOTD panel in the background.
>>
>> This means that the server can still spam traffic-to-cash URLs on
>> clients, many of which have noise-making Flash embedded or which open popup
>> windows using JavaScript. In order to maintain the "sterile bubble" in
>> Quickplay, Valve might want to consider preventing servers from opening
>> webpages on Quickplay-joining clients entirely, not just preventing the
>> panel from being redisplayed.
>>
>>
>>
>> Doctor McKay
>> http://www.doctormckay.com
>> mc...@doctormckay.com
>>
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>> please visit:
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Re: [hlds] TF2 MOTD and Quickplay

[Paul]

Exactly, I use the MOTD on my QP servers for monitoring analytics (using
Google Analytics that is). Doing what McKay suggests would destroy that.
All players have to do is just leave the server, report it and/or blacklist
it.


On 16 June 2013 20:35, Valentin G.  wrote:

> Or just let players report and leave these servers. There are several
> legit reasons for HTML MOTDs.
>
>
> On Sun, Jun 16, 2013 at 9:19 PM, Doctor McKay wrote:
>
>> As I'm sure most are aware, a little while ago Valve changed the TF2 MOTD
>> panel so that it can't be reopened by the server if the client joins via
>> Quickplay (or using the matchmaking argument on the connect command).
>> However, this just prevents the MOTD panel itself from redisplaying. The
>> server can still open pages in the client's MOTD panel in the background.
>>
>> This means that the server can still spam traffic-to-cash URLs on
>> clients, many of which have noise-making Flash embedded or which open popup
>> windows using JavaScript. In order to maintain the "sterile bubble" in
>> Quickplay, Valve might want to consider preventing servers from opening
>> webpages on Quickplay-joining clients entirely, not just preventing the
>> panel from being redisplayed.
>>
>>
>>
>> Doctor McKay
>> http://www.doctormckay.com
>> mc...@doctormckay.com
>>
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>>
>
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Re: [hlds] TF2 MOTD and Quickplay

[Valentin G.]

Or just let players report and leave these servers. There are several legit
reasons for HTML MOTDs.


On Sun, Jun 16, 2013 at 9:19 PM, Doctor McKay  wrote:

> As I'm sure most are aware, a little while ago Valve changed the TF2 MOTD
> panel so that it can't be reopened by the server if the client joins via
> Quickplay (or using the matchmaking argument on the connect command).
> However, this just prevents the MOTD panel itself from redisplaying. The
> server can still open pages in the client's MOTD panel in the background.
>
> This means that the server can still spam traffic-to-cash URLs on clients,
> many of which have noise-making Flash embedded or which open popup windows
> using JavaScript. In order to maintain the "sterile bubble" in Quickplay,
> Valve might want to consider preventing servers from opening webpages on
> Quickplay-joining clients entirely, not just preventing the panel from
> being redisplayed.
>
>
>
> Doctor McKay
> http://www.doctormckay.com
> mc...@doctormckay.com
>
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> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
> please visit:
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Re: [hlds] TF2 MOTD and Quickplay

[Paul]

This idea would cripple functionality for radio on quickplay servers, just
being one example of something it would further ruin for TF2 if such a
restriction was imposed. I myself can't say I've come across servers like
this, and if there are any then I imagine it's a mere handful (minor
percentage of all QP servers). All players have to do in such instances of
finding a server is just blacklist it and/or report it in-game, case
closed. Alternatively if something is decided to be done in view of one
complaint then disabling window.open would eliminate any new windows that
you might be talking about even if that's the case. As I say, I haven't
found this when going on servers myself.


On 16 June 2013 20:19, Doctor McKay  wrote:

> As I'm sure most are aware, a little while ago Valve changed the TF2 MOTD
> panel so that it can't be reopened by the server if the client joins via
> Quickplay (or using the matchmaking argument on the connect command).
> However, this just prevents the MOTD panel itself from redisplaying. The
> server can still open pages in the client's MOTD panel in the background.
>
> This means that the server can still spam traffic-to-cash URLs on clients,
> many of which have noise-making Flash embedded or which open popup windows
> using JavaScript. In order to maintain the "sterile bubble" in Quickplay,
> Valve might want to consider preventing servers from opening webpages on
> Quickplay-joining clients entirely, not just preventing the panel from
> being redisplayed.
>
>
>
> Doctor McKay
> http://www.doctormckay.com
> mc...@doctormckay.com
>
> ___
> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
> please visit:
> https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds
>
>
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