Re: [hlds_linux] [hlds] The End

[Robert Paulson]

Community servers are not obsolete, they just require more work to setup,
which TF2 already has the infrastructure for. Most modern games are short
lived so they do not want to spend the time upfront to support community
servers, but in TF2, the work has already been done.

Community servers have many benefits over official ones, besides
moderation, server hardware is one example I am surprised to see you bring
up. Valve uses commodity hardware. I've seen official servers lag even with
only 24 players. There are quite a few communities out there that splurge
more than Valve would ever bother to, for example, higher tick servers in
CS:GO. On TF2 this is not so obvious since ticks are capped at 66, but
there is less stuttering. There is also no ddos protection. Script kiddies
can just ddos the server before they start losing.

Even if you don't believe community servers did (and still do) any of this,
just remember before quickplay defaulted to official servers, the top 100
servers on gametracker were all community servers. I didn't screenshot this
because I had no idea Valve would remove community servers from quickplay,
but I believe people here can confirm this. This is unbiased proof that
community servers were worth having.

I can already hear some of you bring up that a few server owners will
cheat? I don't see how this would be an issue if you kept the original
quickplay instead of replacing it with casual mode which is useless. What's
the point of gaining xp for losing, or recording stats when your team don't
care about winning? Is this not basically the same reward system we have
for item drops? As I have said repeatedly, all you need to do to ensure
that players know what a "vanilla" experience is like is to force them into
official servers for the first 10 hours.

Many community players have told me that they aren't moving back to
official servers when community ones die off. They will just play Overwatch
instead. If they are forced to deal with teleport griefers and hackers,
they will do it in a game with better graphics, new characters and
mechanics, and devs that talk to the community.

It is baffling that Valve would kill their stickiest player-base built up
over almost a decade to try to copy Overwatch's success.

As a reminder, here is how TF2 is doing.

October 2016   45,910.1
October 2015   55,256.6
October 2014   57,977.0

http://steamcharts.com/app/440

Community servers are a positive thing for the game. I hope John and Eric
realize it before the last few die off for good.

John, if you have any plans to actually make use of the Game Sever
registration system so that community servers have a reasonable chance at
getting players, time is running out. For some, it is already too late. The
last few community servers are dying right now.
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Re: [hlds_linux] [hlds] The End

[Robert Paulson]

I respectfully disagree and I guarantee you will failing. The only way out
of this is to convince Valve they've made a series of big mistakes and they
need to reverse them now.

I hate to say I told you so, but was I not right when I was the only person
saying the Meet your Match update was going to kill community servers, not
help them? And that it would become apparent after summer vacation?

TF2 trading websites were made long before Valve started killing community
servers. That's why they have a relatively large user-base right now. Valve
made their own trading request system, and even though it is not a complete
replacement, most players use that instead. Only hardcore traders bother
with the TF2 trading sites now. Trying to compete directly with the in-game
menu is foolish.

If you think Valve won't make a replacement for your website in the future
given what is happening to community servers right, I have a bridge to sell
you.
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Re: [hlds_linux] [hlds] The End

[Robert Paulson]

> Almost every game developer is becoming hostile to community-run servers,
> especially the largest ones. TF2 is unfortunately one of the few shooters
> out there that actually still has a server browser at all.

You would have a point, except there has never been another AAA game where
they started off with a server browser and then killed it off later. In any
other game, people would not be afraid to call it a bait and switch.

It might have been a better business plan for Valve to start with no
community servers, but that time is long past. By killing them now, Valve
is just throwing away their community players in a foolish effort to
compete directly with Overwatch.

Many community players have told me that they aren't moving back to
official servers when community ones die off. They will just play Overwatch
instead. If they are forced to live with teleport griefers and hackers,
they will do it in a game with better graphics, new characters and
mechanics, and devs that talk to the community.

You can see that TF2 player counts are dropping harder than ever. And even
considering monthly percent changes, you can see that the Halloween update
resulted in a -5.42% player drop from the previous month, and a huge 20%
drop compared to last year. How much more obvious can it get that they are
going down the wrong path?

October 2016   45,910.1-5.42%
October 2015   55,256.6-0.93%
October 2014   57,977.0   +5.24%

http://steamcharts.com/app/440

> However, this is definitely an opportunity where something *can* still be
> done about this, because the option to run a community server, and linking
> people to join a specific server from the web, still exists.

There is already a website like that, I forgot the name. No one ever uses
it because no one is spending money to advertise it. And why should we be
spending money on top of servers into a website run by an unknown 3rd party
and essentially rewarding Valve for their actions by giving them more Mann
Co Store customers?

Everyone that would use a web browser to find servers is already
comfortable using the in-game browser. The people you need to reach are the
"quickplay/casual" players, and if it isn't in the game, they aren't going
to bother.

There is also no way you can out-advertise Valve. TF2 updates are given
premium placement with millions of views on the Steam store and for every
single TF2 player when they start the game. To get remotely around this
amount of eyeballs, you would need to spend tens of thousands per month.

This is something that only the TF2 team can fix. It is up John and Eric
whether they want both a dying game and ruined reputation, or something not
as bad.
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Re: [hlds_linux] Temporary Quickplay changes .. 27 months later

[Robert Paulson]

This really isn't similar to the competitive scene at all.

When TF2 was released, *absolutely nobody *bought the game expecting Valve
to prop up the competitive scene like they are doing with Dota2. People who
wanted to host their own competitive leagues were free to do so with 0
interference (unlike community servers) from Valve , and Valve even added
models for UGC and ETF2L. So I don't see how you could have rightfully
demanded competitive matchmaking to be made.

However, I am fairly sure that most people who bought TF2 expected to be
able to join or host community servers if they ever wanted to and not
thrown in a ghetto devoid of new players and stuffed in a half-size button
in the middle of the screen. This was the expectation given how Half-Life,
CS:S, and Gmod were, and they purposefully destroyed this feature of the
game.

So there is a big difference between the comp scene expecting Valve to add
a new feature that never existed and no one ever expected, and the
community scene asking Valve to add a feature back that was there at the
beginning of the game. So, I really don't see how you can even tell us to
be patient knowing this difference, and the fact that it has already been 2
years, and countless communities that took 5+ years to build up have
permanently died and will never come back even if the quickplay change was
reversed today.

I will reserve my optimism for that tweet when I actually see what the
update is. It is way too vague and it will probably be another failure that
no one uses like the "quicklist". Why do they not even say what it is when
they've spilled the beans on competitive matchmaking over the years?


On Tue, May 10, 2016 at 2:50 PM, epi  wrote:

> Perhaps you will get the attention you so desperately seek from Valve in
> the next update:
>
> https://twitter.com/4G_b4nny/status/729839464684490752
>
> Keep in mind that server owners are not the only group that supports this
> game. The competitive scene has held on through it all, is still growing,
> and is responsible for a fair amount of the attention that Valve has paid
> to TF2 recently. Even then, it took them a _long_ time to get anything at
> all. If you're interested in seeing how that all played out, you can start
> here:
>
>
> http://www.teamfortress.tv/24742/fully-charged-valve-and-competitive-tf2-episode-42
>
>
> On 5/4/2016 6:10 PM, Andreas Willinger wrote:
>
>> So, Valve, maybe you should update your Wiki and add "temporary" as
>> "forever" (https://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Valve_Time)
>>
>> Two years, various suggestions have been posted, like improving the UI,
>> some
>> sort of verified server system and others, yet not even a single word from
>> Valve.
>>
>>
>>
>> Can we finally get some sort of response or will we wait until TF2 is
>> entirely full of braindead, 12 year-old weekend warriors.
>>
>>
>>
>> Original text for anyone interested:
>>
>>
>>
>> "At this time, we are keeping the default quickplay option to Valve
>> servers.
>> However, note that if a player wants to find a server with any of the
>> supported modifications, then they must land on a community server, since
>> Valve servers do not run with these settings."
>>
>> Posted by Fletcher Dunn on February 8, 2014.
>>
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Re: [hlds_linux] Temporary Quickplay changes .. 27 months later

[Robert Paulson]

Well congratulations for being a special little snowflake? Now shut up if
you are not going to say anything useful in a thread related to community
server issues, in a mailing list specifically made for community server
issues, instead of telling us to go to a forum where no Valve employee ever
reads.

I am willing to bet most of us here are/were part of communities that did
not host on lowest quality $5 servers. We remember a time when community
servers were filled for 12 hours a day, every single day of the week.

It seems like you only started your server in the past year or so since you
don't know that countless solutions have already been offered and that
community servers used to have many more players. There's nothing left to
do but to call out Valve on their inaction and total alienation and
betrayal to their community server players/customers.

On Mon, May 9, 2016 at 10:52 PM, Aaron Thompson  wrote:

> And i pay $5/month for my server so im not crying so much. I can afford to
> be patient.
> On May 10, 2016 12:51 AM, "Aaron Thompson"  wrote:
>
> > Never played quickplay, don't ever intend to, my only gripe was after
> > free2play and it lasted like 5 minutes. I can honestly say that I have no
> > way to contribute to this arguement. However, I CAN say that instead of a
> > bitchfest...why dont you all find a solution that is viable and present
> it
> > to them. If that wad done already, again I do not know anything in
> regards
> > to this situation. They have continuously updated the game with new and
> > user created content, nerfing and otherwise and the only problem I have
> is
> > with a certain population of players who ruin the game for everyone
> > else...and NO I dont just mean LMAObox users. If anyone killed TF2 it is
> a
> > percentage of the people who choose to spend their time there making the
> > game unplayable.
> > On May 10, 2016 12:05 AM, "Eli Witt"  wrote:
> >
> >> Awww, are you ou mad that people who've invested countless hundreds of
> >> hours and personal dollars into running Valve's game for them have a
> >> legitimate complaint against valve for acting like a bunch of ignorant
> >> douchebags?
> >>
> >> You can feel free to unsubscrive too.
> >>
> >> On Mon, May 9, 2016 at 10:54 PM, Aaron Thompson 
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> > Can you all go rant somewhere else. Some of us don't have your
> problems.
> >> > They have forums for a reason please use them or email them directly.
> >> > On May 9, 2016 8:14 PM, "Robert Paulson" 
> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > > Why could you not blame Valve? They are 100% fully to blame for the
> >> > current
> >> > > state of community servers. I am not sure why you think they had no
> >> > choice
> >> > > and no one should complain.
> >> > >
> >> > > You cannot expect every single random person to follow the rules.
> Did
> >> > Valve
> >> > > close free2play because servers are being plagued with hackers using
> >> > > lmaobox and making a new account in 20 seconds? No? Then why are all
> >> > > community servers being punished for this identical situation?
> >> > >
> >> > > The TF2 team was extremely lazy in handling this matter, not even
> >> willing
> >> > > to spend 1 hour a month cleaning up reported servers, and decided to
> >> > "fix"
> >> > > the issue by essentially giving up. All they had to do was ban a few
> >> > > servers every month taking up less than an hour of their time. Even
> if
> >> > they
> >> > > cannot get rid of cheating 100%, it would still be better than what
> >> they
> >> > > are doing now.
> >> > >
> >> > > All we can hope for now is that Overwatch kills TF2 to show them a
> >> > lesson,
> >> > > but they would probably just keep trying to emulate Overwatch as
> much
> >> as
> >> > > possible rather than reversing all the decisions they made to kill
> >> > > community servers.
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > On Thu, May 5, 2016 at 12:27 AM, Erik-jan Riemers <
> riem...@binkey.nl>
> >> > > wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > > > TF2 had its best time... it would have been longer if not for
> this.
> >> As
> >> > a
> >> > > > community owner

Re: [hlds_linux] Temporary Quickplay changes .. 27 months later

[Robert Paulson]

Why could you not blame Valve? They are 100% fully to blame for the current
state of community servers. I am not sure why you think they had no choice
and no one should complain.

You cannot expect every single random person to follow the rules. Did Valve
close free2play because servers are being plagued with hackers using
lmaobox and making a new account in 20 seconds? No? Then why are all
community servers being punished for this identical situation?

The TF2 team was extremely lazy in handling this matter, not even willing
to spend 1 hour a month cleaning up reported servers, and decided to "fix"
the issue by essentially giving up. All they had to do was ban a few
servers every month taking up less than an hour of their time. Even if they
cannot get rid of cheating 100%, it would still be better than what they
are doing now.

All we can hope for now is that Overwatch kills TF2 to show them a lesson,
but they would probably just keep trying to emulate Overwatch as much as
possible rather than reversing all the decisions they made to kill
community servers.




On Thu, May 5, 2016 at 12:27 AM, Erik-jan Riemers  wrote:

> TF2 had its best time... it would have been longer if not for this. As a
> community owner for 8+ years i have always tried to do good by the rules of
> Valve. Only to find tons of servers that don't obey those rules. Valve
> tried its best to counter them but ended up hurting the communities that
> didn't do anything wrong. I can't blame Valve, but the experience is bad
> these days, we used to have a "all maps" server where high division players
> would come and play, making it interesting for people with skills. Only a
> few 'custom' servers are still alive these days, but haunted by cheaters
> and people that just want to troll and mic spam. No admins are there
> anymore because nobody wants to babysit a server full of kids. Slowly
> closing my TF2 servers. (It's been fun while it lasted)
>
> Regardless, thanks Valve for the times we did have a great experience for
> community's. Perhaps one day we might see a TF3.
>
> 2016-05-05 0:48 GMT+02:00 Vivien FRENOT-MATHEVON  >:
>
> > Still waiting for a fix. :(
> >
> > Le jeu. 5 mai 2016 00:11, Andreas Willinger  a écrit :
> >
> > > So, Valve, maybe you should update your Wiki and add "temporary" as
> > > "forever" (https://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Valve_Time)
> > >
> > > Two years, various suggestions have been posted, like improving the UI,
> > > some
> > > sort of verified server system and others, yet not even a single word
> > from
> > > Valve.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Can we finally get some sort of response or will we wait until TF2 is
> > > entirely full of braindead, 12 year-old weekend warriors.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Original text for anyone interested:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > "At this time, we are keeping the default quickplay option to Valve
> > > servers.
> > > However, note that if a player wants to find a server with any of the
> > > supported modifications, then they must land on a community server,
> since
> > > Valve servers do not run with these settings."
> > >
> > > Posted by Fletcher Dunn on February 8, 2014.
> > >
> > > ___
> > > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
> > > please visit:
> > > https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
> > >
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Re: [hlds_linux] [hlds] Test

[Robert Paulson]

Eric, you can take action by obfuscating everyone's email.

There are dozens of websites that log the contents of this mailing list and
allows everyone's email to be scraped.

Also, since you are here, do you also have any comment on the
anti-community server policies?

On Fri, Sep 11, 2015 at 4:46 PM, Eric Smith  wrote:

> On that topic, Amy is not subscribed to this list so we don't have an
> action we can take here.
>
> -Eric
>
>
>
> From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto:
> hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Weasels Lair
> Sent: Friday, September 11, 2015 11:54 AM
> To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list
> Subject: Re: [hlds] Test
>
> She's not YOUR Amy! She's obviously mine! She keeps e-mailing ME!
>
>
> On Sep 11, 2015 11:42 AM, "N-Gon"  wrote:
> Not my amy!
>
>
> On Fri, Sep 11, 2015 at 2:28 PM, Daniel Barreiro <
> smelly.feet.you.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Is this change to help stop the spambots by any chance?
>
>
> On Fri, Sep 11, 2015 at 2:26 PM, Eric Smith 
> wrote:
> Testing a mailing list change. No need to reply. Thanks.
>
> -Eric
>
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Re: [hlds_linux] IPv6 on SRCDS

[Robert Paulson]

I for one hope they don't add IPV6 any time soon.

It is already enough of a hassle to ban all these F2P hackers and it will
be 10 times worse when everyone has hundreds of ips.

And plugins and databases would need to be upgraded as well.

On Sat, Jan 17, 2015 at 10:14 AM, ics  wrote:

> This has been suggested on this list time to time for the past 4-5 years.
> No answer has been ever given to one way or the other.
>
> -ics
>
> Giovanni Harting kirjoitti:
>
>  I would guess the new source 2 supports IPv6, everything else would be
>> terrifying.
>>
>> 2015-01-17 16:32 GMT+01:00 Kevin Kelker :
>>
>>> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
>>> Hash: SHA1
>>>
>>> Hey there,
>>>
>>> I've searched around the web
>>> but didn't find any current news about this:
>>>
>>> How about IPv6 on Source dedicated Servers?
>>> There were some posts back in 2013 that it isn't possible - yet.
>>>
>>> But meanwhile IPv6 deployment has made huge steps and here in Germany
>>> we already have ISPs that only serve native v6 adresses to their
>>> customers and are doing carrier grade NAT for the remaining IPv4-only
>>> services (which has, depending on the load of their core routers, a
>>> horrible performance at some times).
>>>
>>> So is there any way now to bind srcds servers to a native v6 or at
>>> least some word about the progress of making it compatible (maybe even
>>> a word from a developer here :-) )?
>>>
>>> Thanks in advance an best regards!
>>> Kevin
>>>
>>> PS: please don't slap me if I've missed something about that topic.
>>> Haven't been around quite a long time but tried my best to search the
>>> forums first.
>>> -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
>>> Version: GnuPG v2
>>>
>>> iQIcBAEBAgAGBQJUuoCgAAoJEKd25JuJ3jlZNKsP/2D5BRMYeQYJJhGM1UG1zqze
>>> IgQnwQYI75nt67BUf5TSv3IMjhyGJd7kNt3E+V0qDY/bjhSLnbEuMMAAiW8P3tdD
>>> HJFwFmJaOR0/IP6Pn/G6md0kKsJ0u5I0K/5CGrWS+YM4M/cvKMeBAvydfO19Fa7O
>>> CUo3uORvAIotGEaWD36U1T/wedR8kRHkTBlXHn3YV3G9k1qUuMtjegojGm2EtcB5
>>> Hl/v90jna8amncBhSdyIvNnA98XQvxAGPIW6RLVKImdVfosuit1Z00E0D1IJHPDf
>>> xpVfM/e1g7FVPBFPQryKwfMhR7imUCQemcBOavLFseFs5SNmxoVFqWVMCWYXlODC
>>> udSxHrnKSFrB+bJ0OEpkxOhm0QkxxKvrGntXc3cdEhMOio5R0sejSgsSPcP3ebTT
>>> GMsFsuH1VUUzIMfq5Lh2WSRdnYAe2ao7k6CVMHT7jtFsRw9BZVZHH6ZfeFsCjT0V
>>> vJWXPq0Xa5NCAVcAyv9dtAKkKyKLcIGdsRSmGr7a+ml7p5SkbiATn5QVmcuUZyL/
>>> xzqzC27e4eUK4Gs+PgSV7rCaao0hGRfdMynjAf5Gzv0/iQEyk33coi1ECPRrjZrY
>>> hANbzjlE0pAQsyH9E8nr+yYVqX/MA6XDmiMSDDctdRA1NhUB8+ORBDxPlio/l/0Y
>>> CBjIqKytuN4ZJ5xhztEb
>>> =H/tm
>>> -END PGP SIGNATURE-
>>>
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Re: [hlds_linux] "Temporary" Quickplay changes ... 8 months later

[Robert Paulson]

I suggested automatically unchecking the box after a few hours several
months ago.

The suggestion for a popup box telling people to uncheck the box will not
work. Players are just going to be lazy and click ok without reading it. It
will be the same problem we have now.

On Fri, Oct 24, 2014 at 12:54 PM, Paul  wrote:

> Excellent suggestion. I think I've already seen something like it suggested
> in the past though, maybe I'm wrong, but if I'm right then Valve ignored
> that :(, hopefully I'm wrong there.
>
> On 24 October 2014 20:25, Frank  wrote:
>
> > Perfect suggestion here +1 from me
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com
> > [mailto:hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of
> Alexander
> > Corn
> > Sent: Friday, October 24, 2014 2:38 PM
> > To: 'Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list'
> > Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] "Temporary" Quickplay changes ... 8 months
> later
> >
> > This could be easily solved by simply enabling the box by default for a
> > player's first 5 hours or so of playtime, then unchecking it (or
> presenting
> > them with a dialog prompting them to disable it to check out the
> community
> > aspect of TF2, which they could decline).
> >
> > McKay
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com
> > [mailto:hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Stefan
> > `Sec`
> > Zehl
> > Sent: Friday, October 24, 2014 7:15 AM
> > To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list
> > Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] "Temporary" Quickplay changes ... 8 months
> later
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > On Fri, Oct 24, 2014 at 12:08 +0200, Emil Larsson wrote:
> > > I don't think people have a problem with that it's possible to select
> > > Valve servers in quickplay, but rather that Valve servers is selected
> > > by
> > default.
> > > By default it should be "any server" really, and then people can
> > > customize that if they want to prefer valve of community servers.
> >
> > I disagree. People who don't change settings and land on a bad server
> will
> > assume that Valve messed up. So it makes sense to put those players on
> > "default" servers.
> >
> > Look, it's server owners who didn't play by the rules who created this
> > problem. Valve fixed it in the way they could do it without eating up way
> > more time&people resources. I like the situation now way better than
> > before,
> > where I had to keep blacklists to even be able to play sanely.
> >
> > > They also disabled the HTML motd if you joined through quickplay to
> > > combat the ad-ridden servers, so that point is moot anyway.
> >
> > This is also missing the point. Even while playing I can get several
> > annoying messages all over my screen (yes, they are text only, but no
> less
> > annoying) bothering me to pay for this oh-so-great server. This is
> nothing
> > anyone wants to see who hits quickplay.
> >
> > CU,
> > Sec
> > --
> > stop reading here
> >
> > ___
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> > please visit:
> > https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
> >
> >
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> >
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Re: [hlds_linux] "Temporary" Quickplay changes ... 8 months later

[Robert Paulson]

I don't mind if he keep bumping the thread with these troll posts. A bump
is a bump.

Dan (needaxeo) has been trolling these mailing lists for the past 2 years.
He doesn't want Valve to take any action because he gave up on his own
community and wants to see everyone else fail. He thinks no one can host a
better server and we are all trying to make a profit off dirt cheap servers
like he did. And he doesn't even play the game anymore so he is just here
trolling.

Here is the proof when I outed him.

https://www.mail-archive.com/hlds_linux@list.valvesoftware.com/msg75063.html
https://www.mail-archive.com/hlds_linux@list.valvesoftware.com/msg75067.html

He keeps repeating 2 arguments that have been debunked over and over again.

- People are not too stupid or lazy to find the server they want to play.

If people weren't stupid or lazy they would never have needed to make
official servers default, because they would have been smart enough to add
"valve" to their tags.

Even Valve knows most people are stupid or lazy which is why every Steam
chat box says "Never tell your password to anyone" and "the URL you have
clicked on is not an official Steam website".

- Valve servers are objectively the best.

Before this quickplay change, none of the official servers were even top
200 on Gametrackers.

On Wed, Oct 15, 2014 at 10:46 AM, Frank  wrote:

> Haven't you learned yet? Arguing with Dan on this is pointless and you are
> more likely to get hit by lightning than have him understand and see the
> facts.
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com
> [mailto:hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of 1nsane
> Sent: Wednesday, October 15, 2014 1:39 PM
> To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list
> Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] "Temporary" Quickplay changes ... 8 months later
>
> Most of them are either too stupid or don't care enough to play the game
> long enough to explore for other things.
>
> I've talked with many new players (usually because they add me to "sell"
> stuff). A lot of them are not even aware that there's custom maps.
> Simply because server browser is too hard to use/slow and there's no such
> customization on quickplay.
> Even old time players prefer to use quickplay when they want to feel good
> so
> they can stomp on new players seen on valve servers.
>
> On Wed, Oct 15, 2014 at 1:30 PM, dan  wrote:
>
> > On 14/10/2014 15:39, Matthias "InstantMuffin" Kollek wrote:
> >
> >> I think it's about effectively distributing more diversity to make a
> >> game less blunt and show to players (new ones and old ones alike)
> >> that there's more to the game than meets the current quickplay-eye.
> >>
> >
> > That just boils down to another "players are too dumb to find and
> > connect to the server they want to" fallacy.
> >
> > --
> > Dan
> >
> >
> > ___
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> > please visit:
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> >
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Re: [hlds_linux] "Temporary" Quickplay changes ... 8 months later

[Robert Paulson]

It isn't realistic to expect the TF team to change by itself when it has
been like this for 8 months now. This is their full time job. And this is
what has been done in those past 8 months.

- Quickpick which no one uses.
- Beta maps that are essentially locked to official servers.
- No warning for the steamid change.
- Two sourcemod breaking patches.
- Censoring these threads when they reach a certain size.
Once it reaches a certain size your email will get put into a moderation
queue and an anti-community post usually end up being the last one allowed.

This was done to stop rogue servers and people on SPUF who can't even be
bothered to type valve in the tag box. This stopped being about ads when
they already disabled quickplay players from seeing an html motd months
before this happened. This is about throwing all community servers to the
curb.

Even if Valve fixed this right now, some of these servers are never coming
back because people aren't going to spend another 2 years building up a
player base again. Servers that have been painstakingly built up for 4-5
years of moderation, activities, and upkeep have started dying in these
past 8 months. If they had any concern about community servers, they would
have done more than this by now.

The only thing we can do is keep talking about it until someone with more
pull at Valve stumbles on these complaints and realizes whoever was in
charge of this decision is single-handedly destroying the reputation they
have with community hosts and modders as well as players who realize that
there are community servers much better than official ones.


On Thu, Oct 2, 2014 at 1:32 PM, Ahmed Kandeel 
wrote:

> Yeah I agree with that. If you are gonna improve the system, do so
> alongside a major functionality or code shift.
> I can hope right?
>
> On 2 October 2014 18:26, Emil Larsson  wrote:
>
> > My gut feel is that if they are plannning any major change to quickplay,
> it
> > will be when the quickplay system is merged with the steamid server login
> > system. When that happens is anyone's guess too.
> >
> > On Thu, Oct 2, 2014 at 3:06 PM, Andreas Willinger  wrote:
> >
> > > So, I am just wondering what happened to this statement:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > "At this time, we are keeping the default quickplay option to Valve
> > > servers.
> > > However, note that if a player wants to find a server with any of the
> > > supported modifications, then they must land on a community server,
> since
> > > Valve servers do not run with these settings."
> > >
> > > Posted by Fletcher Dunn on February 8, 2014.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > The option is still defaulting to Valve servers, even though it's
> > supposed
> > > to be "temporary" and the initial cause for this measure, Pinion
> spamming
> > > servers, have long disappeared/been reduced.
> > >
> > > Is there any official change planned to this setting or will it be that
> > way
> > > till eternity?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ___
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> > > please visit:
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> > >
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Re: [hlds_linux] [hlds] New SteamID format for TF2

[Robert Paulson]

Only one insulting anyone's intelligence is you. You think no one here is
smart enough to figure out you are a failed server owner who got mad that
no one joined your cheap and shoddy server from ThrustVPS.  Now you waste
your time flaming this mailing list as though everyone is dumb enough to
believe all community servers are equally bad as yours were.

For anyone that missed it.

https://www.mail-archive.com/hlds_linux@list.valvesoftware.com/msg75063.html
https://www.mail-archive.com/hlds_linux@list.valvesoftware.com/msg75067.html

Also explain why every Steam chat box says "Never tell your password to
anyone" and "the URL you have clicked on is not an official Steam website"
if Valve thinks people are really that smart?

Just stop pretending you are fighting for the average player against the
bad community owners. The only thing you have in common with them at this
point is their level of intelligence. You don't even play the game anymore.

Your other claim that official servers are the best has been debunked over
and over again by the simple observation that none of them were in the
gametracker top 200 before the quickplay change.



On Thu, Aug 28, 2014 at 12:41 PM, dan  wrote:

> On 28/08/2014 19:22, Alexander Corn wrote:
>
>> Dan, have you ever listened to developer commentary in any video game that
>> was ever made? Time and time again, developers need to create "hints" to
>> point players in the right direction. Ever played Portal? Do you remember
>> how in the earlier levels that teach you how to "fling", the spot on the
>> wall where you're supposed to place a portal is on a protruding panel?
>>
>
> This is not the same as trying to suggest that you need training to use
> the game itself.
>
> Perhaps I should have said "use the game" rather than "play" to avoid the
> confusion.
>
> Sheesh, my son was playing games and exploring the options before he was
> in school. The
> idea about a "checkbox" or a gui or menu item is not something unique to
> TF2 -
> and this is  why it's pretty trivial for anyone to explore these options
> (as they clearly do)
>
> What you are trying to suggest here is that opening the box to take out a
> rubik's cube is like
> solving a rubik's cube. Therefore people won't play with it because they
> can't figure out how to open the box and that is, you believe, the reason
> the people are playing
> with a different puzzle. I'm saying if you can open a box then anyone can
> - and only the most
> deluded on this list (and valve if they believe the nonsense in their
> employee handbook) think they are special or
> gifted in some way. Do you think that? Do you think that joining a server
> before quickplay was added was some kind of amazing
> thing you did?
>
> I'm saying, meh, maybe they like the other puzzle and that's why they
> aren't bothering to take the rubik's cube out
> these days. Although when you actually look at the server list in TF2
> there are clearly myriad people who do take it out
> they must, and I know from what my family do that the idea everyone is
> using qp is flawed.
>
> As I've said on the list many times, there's no evidence that PC gamers
> don't find and manipulate
> game options thoroughly. e.g Open the discussion on any PC game where
> options are limited and see the tears and wailing of PC gamers
> complaining about a lack of graphical options or whatever else.
>
> The other thing you can do is just look at the history of TF2.  No one got
> "training" before it appeared.
>
> If you have any intelligence you'd come up with (and you've had a few
> years to do this now)
> a better argument to suggest to Valve why they should put people on your
> server. Forget for one moment the end goal - just read your
> arguments and imagine someone was putting them to you. Would you really
> take anyone seriously
> who suggested people wouldn't or couldn't uncheck an option box and that
> having the box checked was "boo hoo unfair"?
>
> C'mon, you insult Valve's intelligence with these ridiculous arguments -
> not the least because they are obviously fallacious,
> years old and haven't worked. Who was it that said insanity is repeating
> the same thing over and over and expecting different results.
>
> As for Valve's umbrellas "melting" I think you're kidding yourself. See in
> my previous message about the delusion
> of those with empty servers deciding their servers are better.
>
> --
> Dan.
>
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Re: [hlds_linux] [hlds] New SteamID format for TF2

[Robert Paulson]

You realize that was back in November when elitepowered was using fake
players even when Valve had been notified about them months before?

Punishing all community servers for this is like deleting the Valve
workshop just because one person used copyrighted art.


On Wed, Aug 27, 2014 at 2:04 PM, pwn  wrote:

> Just to clarify..
> I never intended to sound like someone who promotes valve's quickplay
> decision as a perfect, nor the servers superior to community ones (well, at
> least a bunch of them), but looking on it as players that prefer vanilla
> experience then yeah, valve's ones are the most comfortable to hop in.
> (STAR_'s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YaxEvEwJt7g video may be a hyped
> up a little bit, but still got some basic sane points)
>
> On the other hand, eric's answer (iirc) to look into quickplay and shift
> the traffic slowly back to community servers in the next months after
> gathering enough feedback and then never giving us any further answer to
> it, giving a middle-finger to all modded servers that provide different
> game experience (dodgeball, etc etc) by the strict quickplay rules,
> ignoring our request to notify with some kind of pop-up of the possibility
> to change to community servers after xy hourplay is a different topic and
> feels like a big f**k you from valve, but whining about it every week on
> the mailing list where we practically just repeat ourselves, is not fun
> anymore; especially when the whining came from serverowners who were the
> reason those strict changes were made (at least in the mails shortly after
> the change).
>
>
> Dňa 27. 8. 2014 21:47 Paul wrote / napísal(a):
>
>  That and the fact that most of the time they seem to not respond to bugs
>> or
>> topics such as Quickplay.
>>
>>
>> On 27 August 2014 20:39, Robert Paulson  wrote:
>>
>>  Before the quickplay change, there was not a single official server in
>>> the
>>> top 200 on gametracker. If official servers were truly the best, they
>>> would
>>> have been up there in equal numbers.
>>>
>>> Some community server worse than official ones. But there are a large
>>> number of community servers that were clearly superior. You can argue all
>>> you want about "everyone" preferring a vanilla experience without
>>> moderators or plugins that fix the many problems with TF2, but the
>>> dominance of community servers prior to this change refutes that.
>>>
>>> I've shown time and time again that many of the people here arguing
>>> against
>>> community servers here are failed owners who haven't played TF2 in 2
>>> years
>>> and want to see the rest of us fail, or serial spammers who have been
>>> banned from every popular community who wants to ensure they can keep
>>> their
>>> spam-haven populated.
>>>
>>> If anyone is still thinking about running servers, this should be a
>>> wakeup
>>> call to stay far away from Valve games. Maybe they will realize the truth
>>> to what we've been saying when player counts aren't being propped up by
>>> summer vacation and updates.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Aug 27, 2014 at 11:15 AM, pwn  wrote:
>>>
>>>  Dňa 27. 8. 2014 19:00 Jake Forrester wrote / napísal(a):
>>>>
>>>>   If we want to inspire change, we need to have a compelling argument
>>>> that
>>>>
>>>>> the majority of us can get behind--not just "psht, you ruined my
>>>>>
>>>> servers,
>>>
>>>> revert the changes or I'll shout at you." You said it though "Default
>>>>> Quickplay Settings" - Valve needs to take the
>>>>>
>>>>>  There is not a simple month that "issue" goes unnoticed on the
>>>> mailinglist...
>>>> I myself was/(still am?) against the quickplay changes, but (from
>>>> another
>>>> point of view) they are simply the most wanted servers because of how
>>>> "clean" they are ... As much as I don't like how those changes were
>>>> enforced on us serverowners, I am still on Valve's side with this,
>>>> thanks
>>>> to those greedy assholes that runs servers simply for profit (as
>>>>
>>> mentioned
>>>
>>>> previously by someone else)..
>>>>
>>>> On the other hand, at least half of the serverowners that are always
>>>> complaining about the changes, are trying to run the same scheme

Re: [hlds_linux] [hlds] New SteamID format for TF2

[Robert Paulson]

Before the quickplay change, there was not a single official server in the
top 200 on gametracker. If official servers were truly the best, they would
have been up there in equal numbers.

Some community server worse than official ones. But there are a large
number of community servers that were clearly superior. You can argue all
you want about "everyone" preferring a vanilla experience without
moderators or plugins that fix the many problems with TF2, but the
dominance of community servers prior to this change refutes that.

I've shown time and time again that many of the people here arguing against
community servers here are failed owners who haven't played TF2 in 2 years
and want to see the rest of us fail, or serial spammers who have been
banned from every popular community who wants to ensure they can keep their
spam-haven populated.

If anyone is still thinking about running servers, this should be a wakeup
call to stay far away from Valve games. Maybe they will realize the truth
to what we've been saying when player counts aren't being propped up by
summer vacation and updates.



On Wed, Aug 27, 2014 at 11:15 AM, pwn  wrote:

> Dňa 27. 8. 2014 19:00 Jake Forrester wrote / napísal(a):
>
>  If we want to inspire change, we need to have a compelling argument that
>> the majority of us can get behind--not just "psht, you ruined my servers,
>> revert the changes or I'll shout at you." You said it though "Default
>> Quickplay Settings" - Valve needs to take the
>>
>
> There is not a simple month that "issue" goes unnoticed on the
> mailinglist...
> I myself was/(still am?) against the quickplay changes, but (from another
> point of view) they are simply the most wanted servers because of how
> "clean" they are ... As much as I don't like how those changes were
> enforced on us serverowners, I am still on Valve's side with this, thanks
> to those greedy assholes that runs servers simply for profit (as mentioned
> previously by someone else)..
>
> On the other hand, at least half of the serverowners that are always
> complaining about the changes, are trying to run the same scheme that
> hundreds of other communities do - if most of other communities didn't
> succeed, why do you think you will do? Running 10 servers, that are most
> almost always empty - wouldn't it be better to lower the amount of them and
> reduce your outcome that you can't cover with the donations/from your
> pocket?
>
> I personally visited most of the servers of the owners here that
> complained (if it was possible to find out which ones they are running) and
> in most cases there was nothing new that the server could offer over the
> valve ones
> We can rant about valve's servers not being the perfect (no moderation, on
> overloaded boxes, etc..), but, at least in my eyes, they are still a
> guarantee that what we get are simply vanilla, with no childish admins,
> tons of useless bronny or whatever else plugins...
> Or get different, learn a bit of programming to get something special that
> others don't have, start with 1 or 2 servers instead with dozens of them
> (and increase the amount *if* needed) and people that do use the
> serverbrowser will find you (yeah, there are, i get almost no traffic from
> quickplay, yet have my server is still full)
>
> ---
> Táto správa neobsahuje vírusy ani žiadny škodlivý kód - avast! Antivirus
> je aktívny.
> http://www.avast.com
>
>
>
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Re: [hlds_linux] [hlds] Can we have a Quickplay Status report, please? 2

[Robert Paulson]

Oh boy, I'm going to enjoy watching you squirm from this one. Nice try
deleting your Reddit and Twitter account.

>From your post here, it is proven that you used the IP 109.169.41.202

http://article.gmane.org/gmane.games.fps.halflife.hlds/34460/

This IP not only shows that you use the handle "needaxeo" with a simple
google search, but it is from ThrustVPS. The significance will be explained
soon.

http://whois.domaintools.com/109.169.41.202

So even though you deleted your Twitter account, you can still see people
replying to you. And thankfully this tweet is still here which links the IP
to that Twitter account.

https://twitter.com/GeoCyberwolf/status/66117779098578945

And here is the Steam group linking that Twitter account to your Steam
profile. Screenshot in case you decide to delete or edit that as well.

http://i.imgur.com/80gcGHQ.png

You don't even play the game anymore, not even when you started whining
about communities 2 years ago. You seem to want every other community to
fail because you can't understand why your own server emptied out when it
was hosted on one of the worst hosts in existence.




On Fri, Jun 6, 2014 at 5:41 PM, dan  wrote:

> On 07/06/2014 01:14, Robert Paulson wrote:
>
>> Well it is in the top 2 sometimes. They move around.
>>>
>> It hasn't been top 2 in very long time.
>>
>
> It was 2nd when I posted earlier. It's 3rd now.
>
>
>
>>  That's not my steam account
>>>
>> Yeah ok sure. It is just someone else that uses the nonsensical phrase
>> "needaxeo" and "nigelwantskfc" on TF2 since 2012 also calls himself Dan,
>> also in the UK, talks the same way on SPUF, and has Twitch and Youtube
>> accounts named needaxeo.
>>
>
> Yes, that steam account is someone else.
>
> Believe it or not you are not the only Robert nor the only Robert Paulson
> in the
> world either. Are the rumours true that if you google your name you just
> get a page come up with
> people facepalming? :D
>
> Now stop being a dick because you're nowhere near  intelligent enough to
> be an internet spy.
>
> --
> Dan.
>
>
>
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Re: [hlds_linux] [hlds] Can we have a Quickplay Status report, please? 2

[Robert Paulson]

> Well it is in the top 2 sometimes. They move around.

It hasn't been top 2 in very long time.

> That's not my steam account

Yeah ok sure. It is just someone else that uses the nonsensical phrase
"needaxeo" and "nigelwantskfc" on TF2 since 2012 also calls himself Dan,
also in the UK, talks the same way on SPUF, and has Twitch and Youtube
accounts named needaxeo.


On Fri, Jun 6, 2014 at 4:39 PM, dan  wrote:

> On 07/06/2014 00:07, Robert Paulson wrote:
>
>> It doesn't matter if it has always been in the top 5 games on Steam. It
>> deserves to be in the top 2 especially with the amount of dev time spent on
>> it. I'm not going to hold off on complaining until it becomes the 6th most
>> played game on Steam, because at that point it is beyond saving.
>>
>
> Well it is in the top 2 sometimes. They move around.
>
>
>
>
>  Steam says I've played 46 hours in last 2 weeks. That's down quite a bit.
>>>
>> http://steamcommunity.com/groups/nigelkfc#announcements/
>> detail/1640699685257593883
>>
>> http://i.imgur.com/D6DrY0r.png
>>
>
> That's not my steam account
>
>
> --
> Dan
>
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Re: [hlds_linux] [hlds] Can we have a Quickplay Status report, please? 2

[Robert Paulson]

> The game isn't dying. It is and has more or less always been in the top 5
games on steam.

If Valve is willing to put in massive amounts of developer time into
patches, it can make up for their bad decisions. And sometimes they
actually made good decisions such as shutting down all their servers which
resulted in record numbers of players. Unfortunately there's a lack of
either one lately.

It doesn't matter if it has always been in the top 5 games on Steam. It
deserves to be in the top 2 especially with the amount of dev time spent on
it. I'm not going to hold off on complaining until it becomes the 6th most
played game on Steam, because at that point it is beyond saving.

> Steam says I've played 46 hours in last 2 weeks. That's down quite a bit.

http://steamcommunity.com/groups/nigelkfc#announcements/detail/1640699685257593883

http://i.imgur.com/D6DrY0r.png


On Fri, Jun 6, 2014 at 3:10 PM, dan  wrote:

> On 06/06/2014 21:31, Robert Paulson wrote:
>
>> So just because TF2 still exists now means it was never losing any
>> players?
>>
>
>
> There seems to be a constant supply of new players.
> You can see that on the official servers at the end of a round when people
> on the winning team get achievements
> like "powerhouse offence"
>
> No doubt some people stop playing too.
>
> You're like a stuck record though. More or less every post you make
> moaning at Valve (this time
> moaning about a feature you told them to add, not once, but twice on this
> list) you post this guff
> about the number of people playing it and how it's dropping.
>
> You've done this for years. The game isn't dying. It is and has more or
> less always been in the top 5 games on steam.
>
> There's a fair bit flawed with the game at the moment but nothing to do
> with the number of
> people who are playing it or what server they happen to play on or what
> the defaults are.
>
>
>  You should leave these mailing lists to the people that actually still
>> play TF2.
>>
>
> Steam says I've played 46 hours in last 2 weeks. That's down quite a bit.
>
> It's practically the only game I play these days. Maybe if Valve go back
> to doing game development
> they'll release something on their store that's worth buying. I think the
> last AAA title
> I bought was Borderlands 2 in 2012.
>
> TF2's not dead, but Valve and Steam appear to be.
>
> Perhaps the Oculus rift will help. I can't see anything Valve have
> announced or added recently that I'm interested in. Not Steamos, not steam
> machines, not streaming adding lag and blur,
> not featureless music players (can't hear the game if music is playing),
> not collecting virtual cards nor increasing my "steam level",
> not plastic controllers.
>
>
> --
> Dan
>
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Re: [hlds_linux] [hlds] Can we have a Quickplay Status report, please? 2

[Robert Paulson]

So just because TF2 still exists now means it was never losing any players?
That's some solid logic right there. You should leave these mailing lists
to the people that actually still play TF2.


On Fri, Jun 6, 2014 at 1:22 PM, dan  wrote:

> On 06/06/2014 07:32, Ross Bemrose wrote:
>
>> You know, you see some interesting trends if you look at the graphs on
>> that SteamGraph site on a per-year basis.
>>
>
> If you cross reference your graphs with Paulson's posts  can you find the
> previous 30 times he's claimed the game is dying?
>
> Valve should buy him a copy of the Parrot sketch "The game's got beautiful
> rendering" "Beautiful rendering? That don't enter into it! This game is no
> moreit has ceased to be.
> It's expired and gone to meet its maker. Bereft of life it rests in peace.
> If you hadn't made it free to play it would be pushing up the daises, it's
> run
> down the curtain and joined the choir invisible. This is an ex-game"
>
> Does beg the question what the point in changing a default would be in a
> game that no one plays :D
>
> --
> Dan
>
>
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Re: [hlds_linux] [hlds] Valve Only Servers in Community Servers

[Robert Paulson]

I hope someone at Valve at least looks at the declining player count and
the gametracker rankings. I know they don't take server owner opinions
seriously, but the numbers speak for themselves.

It is sad that a few people feel the need to defend this decision so much
that they lie about things like the custom tabs situation.

Stopping official servers from being the default won't kill official
servers. We coexisted with them for years. It was only when they were all
removed in December that a few bad apples started to cause a problem.


On Wed, Feb 26, 2014 at 6:57 PM, 1nsane <1nsane...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Funny thing about that. They never competed equally. Valve servers always
> had the advantage and yet community were still more popular despite that.
>
> At the minimum valve servers got new players for the first 8 hours of their
> gameplay. The cvar still exists:
> tf_matchmaking_noob_hours_played 8.0
>
>
> On Wed, Feb 26, 2014 at 8:51 PM, Robert Paulson  >wrote:
>
> > I'm tired of repeating myself to people who only read the last email
> > written. So I will address the most common arguments in one post that can
> > be copy and pasted every time.
> >
> > 1) TF2 has fewer players after community servers were removed by default
> on
> > January 28th. Player count is the most unbiased measure and the facts
> show
> > more was lost than was gained. Your one personal experience isn't going
> to
> > change that.
> >
> >
> >
> http://www.steamgraph.net/index.php?action=graph&jstime=1&appid=440&from=138856320&to=End+Time
> >
> > 2) Community servers are provably better than official servers. When
> > community servers competed equally with official servers, there was not a
> > single official server in the top 200. Now official servers dominate the
> > list because of the monopoly on new players.
> >
> > http://www.gametracker.com/search/tf2/?query=srcds&searchipp=50
> >
> > 3) Many detractors like Phillip Vector are blatantly lying, saying
> servers
> > were running ads when the custom tabs was around. I also remember there
> was
> > another detractor that sold pay-to-win perks on CSS zombiefest.
> >
> > 4) Common Argument: "My own server is doing better than ever, and if your
> > server is dying you are doing something wrong"
> >
> > See #2. Unless you are one of the top 30 servers, official servers now
> have
> > more players than you and it is going to get worse. Over time your older
> > players will quit while the trickle of new players that bother to use the
> > browser will not be enough to replace them..
> >
> > 5) Common Argument: "I only have custom servers"
> >
> > All new players are being conditioned to only use quickplay. Many will
> > never be aware there are custom servers the way TF2 is designed now. Very
> > few people change quickplay options.
> >
> > 6) Common Argument: "Why can't you build a community without quickplay
> like
> > before?"
> >
> > Quickplay did not exist before, and it siphons an estimated 30% of all
> > users, including nearly all new players. We predict this percentage will
> > increase as older players quit.
> >
> > 7) Common Argument: "This was better for players"
> >
> > No one is going to argue servers like bets.tf needed to be removed, but
> > Valve should have removed them without killing every other community.
> > According to statistics in #1, there was not much of a benefit gained.
> >
> > When I advocated an official server option, I did not say it should be
> > enabled by default. If you personally dislike unofficial servers, you
> > should be able to opt-out, but it should not be default.
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Feb 26, 2014 at 6:41 PM, dan  wrote:
> >
> > > On 25/02/2014 02:24, Weasels Lair wrote:
> > >
> > >> Actually, if you plot that over the last 12 months, and throw some
> other
> > >> games in for comparison ... it doesn't look related at all.
> > >>
> > >
> > > That's unsurprising since it's been previous related to every other
> time
> > > he's posted saying
> > > the game is dying in the past.
> > >
> > > The irony is, he suggested Valve add the checkbox on 2/11/2011, not
> once
> > > but twice :-
> > >
> > >  1. Add a check-box for Valve-only/Favorites-only Quickplay servers.
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > >  1. Allowing players the option to select only Valve Quickpl

Re: [hlds_linux] [hlds] Valve Only Servers in Community Servers

[Robert Paulson]

I'm tired of repeating myself to people who only read the last email
written. So I will address the most common arguments in one post that can
be copy and pasted every time.

1) TF2 has fewer players after community servers were removed by default on
January 28th. Player count is the most unbiased measure and the facts show
more was lost than was gained. Your one personal experience isn't going to
change that.

http://www.steamgraph.net/index.php?action=graph&jstime=1&appid=440&from=138856320&to=End+Time

2) Community servers are provably better than official servers. When
community servers competed equally with official servers, there was not a
single official server in the top 200. Now official servers dominate the
list because of the monopoly on new players.

http://www.gametracker.com/search/tf2/?query=srcds&searchipp=50

3) Many detractors like Phillip Vector are blatantly lying, saying servers
were running ads when the custom tabs was around. I also remember there was
another detractor that sold pay-to-win perks on CSS zombiefest.

4) Common Argument: "My own server is doing better than ever, and if your
server is dying you are doing something wrong"

See #2. Unless you are one of the top 30 servers, official servers now have
more players than you and it is going to get worse. Over time your older
players will quit while the trickle of new players that bother to use the
browser will not be enough to replace them..

5) Common Argument: "I only have custom servers"

All new players are being conditioned to only use quickplay. Many will
never be aware there are custom servers the way TF2 is designed now. Very
few people change quickplay options.

6) Common Argument: "Why can't you build a community without quickplay like
before?"

Quickplay did not exist before, and it siphons an estimated 30% of all
users, including nearly all new players. We predict this percentage will
increase as older players quit.

7) Common Argument: "This was better for players"

No one is going to argue servers like bets.tf needed to be removed, but
Valve should have removed them without killing every other community.
According to statistics in #1, there was not much of a benefit gained.

When I advocated an official server option, I did not say it should be
enabled by default. If you personally dislike unofficial servers, you
should be able to opt-out, but it should not be default.


On Wed, Feb 26, 2014 at 6:41 PM, dan  wrote:

> On 25/02/2014 02:24, Weasels Lair wrote:
>
>> Actually, if you plot that over the last 12 months, and throw some other
>> games in for comparison ... it doesn't look related at all.
>>
>
> That's unsurprising since it's been previous related to every other time
> he's posted saying
> the game is dying in the past.
>
> The irony is, he suggested Valve add the checkbox on 2/11/2011, not once
> but twice :-
>
>  1. Add a check-box for Valve-only/Favorites-only Quickplay servers.
>>
>
>
>  1. Allowing players the option to select only Valve Quickplay servers
>> would
>>
> end the player complaints for those that cannot tolerate any modifications.
>
>
> --
> Dan.
>
>
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Re: [hlds_linux] [hlds] Valve Only Servers in Community Servers

[Robert Paulson]

You two aren't getting the point though.

If it is the same trend as before, then community servers got massively
screwed over for very little benefit.

This doesn't even take into account that TF2 is free-to-play with frequent
updates. It should be trending upwards like Dota2.

Not the same magnitude, but if it is not even increasing after the supposed
problem of community servers were fixed, then this was clearly a bad
tradeoff.


On Tue, Feb 25, 2014 at 12:59 AM, Erik-jan Riemers wrote:

> I've always noticed that during the holidays/summer you have more players,
> and at  the end of the year to and the start of the year its still low.
> After that it goes up again.
>
>
> 2014-02-25 3:24 GMT+01:00 Weasels Lair :
>
> > Actually, if you plot that over the last 12 months, and throw some other
> > games in for comparison ... it doesn't look related at all.  Looks like
> > game-play for most of the games goes up/down about the same percent at
> > about the same time.
> >
> >
> >
> http://www.steamgraph.net/index.php?action=graph&jstime=1&appid=440q240q10q730&from=136169280&to=139322880
> >
> > TF2 just seems to swing more wildly.
> >
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Feb 24, 2014 at 2:42 PM, Robert Paulson  > >wrote:
> >
> > > TF2 player counts have stagnated and even dropped a bit since January
> 23.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> http://www.steamgraph.net/index.php?action=graph&jstime=1&appid=440&from=138856320&to=End+Time
> > >
> > > To Fletcher and any other Valve employee responsible for this change:
> > This
> > > change will harm TF2 popularity in the long run. Please don't put this
> on
> > > the back burner because it is destroying player-bases that took years
> to
> > > build. It takes a long time for a server to reach critical mass.
> > >
> > > There are very few people using quickpick or changing quickplay
> options.
> > We
> > > know this because quickplay connects remained at 7%, down from 30%
> before
> > > these changes. Since there is no communication what the exact
> motivations
> > > were to remove community servers from quickplay, here are some general
> > > solutions.
> > >
> > > - The play now option button should be labeled. The cancel button could
> > be
> > > moved to the top right and changed to X.
> > > - After 4 hours of play, automatically check community servers.
> > > - After 4 hours of play, switch the play multiplayer button with the
> > > servers button.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Wed, Feb 19, 2014 at 12:06 PM, Abdulrahman Abdulkawi <
> > > abdulk...@live.co.uk> wrote:
> > >
> > > > I doubt they will change the default option (since they can't
> guarantee
> > > > the server they are sent to, follows quickplay rules).
> > > >
> > > > @Fletcher Dunn - can you not make a compromise that would work for
> both
> > > > of us? I think having a notification/box pop up upon opening the
> > > quickplay
> > > > after having play X hours with default filters set - to alert the
> user
> > if
> > > > they wish to expand their search filter to find community servers as
> > well
> > > > as valve servers (with an easy yes/no button).
> > > >
> > > > Sent from Blackberry.
> > > > From: ics
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, 19 February 2014 19:44
> > > > To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list
> > > > Reply To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list
> > > > Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] [hlds] Valve Only Servers in Community
> > Servers
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Valve did nice job of alienating players from community servers. 2/4
> of
> > > > the 24 slot servers i run are now dead in the water.
> > > >
> > > > -ics
> > > >
> > > > Erik-jan Riemers kirjoitti:
> > > > > Mine already died, only custom servers are still doing fine.
> > Everything
> > > > but
> > > > > stock.. after +- 6 years of having a successful stock server it has
> > now
> > > > > died completely.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > 2014-02-19 17:39 GMT+01:00 Invalid Protocol <
> > > > > invalidprotocolvers...@gmail.com>:
> > > > >
> > > > >> Very few players use the server browser 

Re: [hlds_linux] [hlds] Valve Only Servers in Community Servers

[Robert Paulson]

TF2 player counts have stagnated and even dropped a bit since January 23.

http://www.steamgraph.net/index.php?action=graph&jstime=1&appid=440&from=138856320&to=End+Time

To Fletcher and any other Valve employee responsible for this change: This
change will harm TF2 popularity in the long run. Please don't put this on
the back burner because it is destroying player-bases that took years to
build. It takes a long time for a server to reach critical mass.

There are very few people using quickpick or changing quickplay options. We
know this because quickplay connects remained at 7%, down from 30% before
these changes. Since there is no communication what the exact motivations
were to remove community servers from quickplay, here are some general
solutions.

- The play now option button should be labeled. The cancel button could be
moved to the top right and changed to X.
- After 4 hours of play, automatically check community servers.
- After 4 hours of play, switch the play multiplayer button with the
servers button.




On Wed, Feb 19, 2014 at 12:06 PM, Abdulrahman Abdulkawi <
abdulk...@live.co.uk> wrote:

> I doubt they will change the default option (since they can't guarantee
> the server they are sent to, follows quickplay rules).
>
> @Fletcher Dunn - can you not make a compromise that would work for both
> of us? I think having a notification/box pop up upon opening the quickplay
> after having play X hours with default filters set - to alert the user if
> they wish to expand their search filter to find community servers as well
> as valve servers (with an easy yes/no button).
>
> Sent from Blackberry.
> From: ics
> Sent: Wednesday, 19 February 2014 19:44
> To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list
> Reply To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list
> Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] [hlds] Valve Only Servers in Community Servers
>
>
> Valve did nice job of alienating players from community servers. 2/4 of
> the 24 slot servers i run are now dead in the water.
>
> -ics
>
> Erik-jan Riemers kirjoitti:
> > Mine already died, only custom servers are still doing fine. Everything
> but
> > stock.. after +- 6 years of having a successful stock server it has now
> > died completely.
> >
> >
> > 2014-02-19 17:39 GMT+01:00 Invalid Protocol <
> > invalidprotocolvers...@gmail.com>:
> >
> >> Very few players use the server browser or change the default settings
> when
> >> looking for playing a classic game (not prop-hunt, saxon, custom maps
> >> etc...). Now Quickplay sends almost all players to Valve servers. I
> doubt
> >> that many community servers running classic maps / gameplay will
> survive.
> >>
> >>
> >> On Wed, Feb 19, 2014 at 4:44 AM, Robert Paulson  >>> wrote:
> >>> This isn't really a big deal.
> >>>
> >>> As I predicted, just about no one uses quickpick. Only 5% of our
> players
> >>> now are from quickplay and 1% use quickpick. I am sure everyone here
> >> using
> >>> Doctor McKay's plugin can confirm this.
> >>>
> >>> Being the default for play now is too much of an advantage and there's
> >> not
> >>> enough being done to put community servers on an even playing field
> with
> >>> official servers.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Sun, Feb 16, 2014 at 1:29 AM, Doctor McKay 
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> If any other option has "Don't care" chosen, the "Gameserver Host"
> >> option
> >>>> will be interpreted as "Don't care". I've already informed Valve and
> >> they
> >>>> are aware of this.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Dr. McKay
> >>>> www.doctormckay.com
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On Sun, Feb 16, 2014 at 4:12 AM, Paul  wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> I agree, othrewise that kind of makes the whole idea unfair to
> >>>> communities
> >>>>> and players if that's how they intended it to be (when opting to go
> >> to
> >>> a
> >>>>> community server).
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On 15 February 2014 19:06, Abdulrahman Abdulkawi <
> >> abdulk...@live.co.uk
> >>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>> Valve servers are showing up when searching for "Community
> >> Servers".
> >>>>>> If this is "how it's meant to be", then that needs

Re: [hlds_linux] [hlds] Valve Only Servers in Community Servers

[Robert Paulson]

This isn't really a big deal.

As I predicted, just about no one uses quickpick. Only 5% of our players
now are from quickplay and 1% use quickpick. I am sure everyone here using
Doctor McKay's plugin can confirm this.

Being the default for play now is too much of an advantage and there's not
enough being done to put community servers on an even playing field with
official servers.


On Sun, Feb 16, 2014 at 1:29 AM, Doctor McKay  wrote:

> If any other option has "Don't care" chosen, the "Gameserver Host" option
> will be interpreted as "Don't care". I've already informed Valve and they
> are aware of this.
>
>
> Dr. McKay
> www.doctormckay.com
>
>
> On Sun, Feb 16, 2014 at 4:12 AM, Paul  wrote:
>
> > I agree, othrewise that kind of makes the whole idea unfair to
> communities
> > and players if that's how they intended it to be (when opting to go to a
> > community server).
> >
> >
> > On 15 February 2014 19:06, Abdulrahman Abdulkawi  > >wrote:
> >
> > > Valve servers are showing up when searching for "Community Servers".
> > >
> > > If this is "how it's meant to be", then that needs to be changed - If
> we
> > > don't get listed in 'Valve servers' option, then Valve Servers
> shouldn't
> > > get listed for "Community Servers".
> > >
> > > All other filters are 'default'.
> > >
> > > ___
> > > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
> > > please visit:
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> > >
> > ___
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> > please visit:
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> >
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Re: [hlds_linux] DDoS Victims

[Robert Paulson]

Isn't this the 2nd and 3rd time you have advertised those hosts? Why do we
need to keep hearing about them? It seems weird coming from someone who was
ddosing other servers.

http://www.reddit.com/r/tf2/comments/1wltom/psa_still_keep_avoiding_kill_streak_gaming/

http://www.reddit.com/r/tf2/comments/1keagu/psa_avoid_killstreak_gaming_servers

http://comments.gmane.org/gmane.games.fps.halflife.server/43931



On Sun, Feb 16, 2014 at 12:28 PM, Supreet  wrote:

> Hello,
>
> I have made a post earlier as well and I will make it again. If you're
> being targeted of DDoS attacks, you are pretty much screwed. I had the same
> issue with my community. These are your options:
>
> Go rent with NFOServers
> Go rent with SharkTech
>
> They both have great DDoS protection and you won't have to worry about any
> attacks less than 10 Gbit. After 10-15 Gbit, is when they start nullrouting
> the IP.
>
> You're welcome!
> Supreet
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Re: [hlds_linux] Important changes to TF2 coming soon

[Robert Paulson]

There are several problems with this. With all the new strict guidelines
that looks like a laundry list of complaints from SPUF, people are
eventually going to whine about the server  expanding beyond 24 slots. Then
if a server is completely full then are admins blocked from managing their
servers just to be on quickplay? Not every situation can be handled by
using the console. And then there is the pay-by-slot issue.

I am thankful that there is an attempt at a compromise but frankly it is
quite underwhelming.

If the default "official servers" box isn't going to be removed, community
servers will still be cut off from the majority of new players, whether
they qualify or not. The new guidelines for quickplay also make it
impossible for server owners to support or stand out.

- "Opening a MOTD window (hidden or visible) that is not requested"
I don't see what the point of this is when the MOTD has been disabled for
quickplay players. Does this mean we can't even show the MOTD to
non-quickplay players when they connect?

- "Giving or selling gameplay advantage to players"
We don't give people bonus HP and damage, but what about things like
autobalance immunity, the ability to swap teams, or even humiliation
immunity? Seriously, I had someone argue those were gameplay advantages.

- "Granting or modifying economy items, or taking actions that devalue
players' items, or interfering with the TF2 economy"
This means that donator or frequent player effects are out even though it
doesn't change the gameplay?

All I see here is that Valve is making it impossible for quickplay servers
to support and distinguish themselves, getting rid of the most commonly
accepted server benefits that have been offered since CS. And the official
server opt-in that is the source of all the recent player loss is still
unchanged.


On Wed, Feb 5, 2014 at 4:28 PM, Fletcher Dunn
wrote:

> What's the problem with overfull servers?  Can you not set
> visiblemaxplayers to 24 and allow players with reserved slots to join past
> 24?
>
> -Original Message-
> From: hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto:
> hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Jake Forrester
> Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2014 4:23 PM
> To: hlds_linux@list.valvesoftware.com
> Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Important changes to TF2 coming soon
>
> Oh happy day!
>
> Thank you for taking all our concerns to heart and actually fixing quite a
> few of the problems that have been around for years.  I'm actually giddy
> with the changes.
>
> The only thing I can see being an issue now is this:
> >
> >   * Kicking players to make room for reserved slots
> >
> I agree that it's lame to kick players for reserved slots, but there
> isn't a great method to support reserved slots right now.   A long time
> ago we used to allow reserved slot players to connect when the server was
> full without kicking anyone (ex: 25/24 players), but srcds seemed to have
> issues with greater than 24 players.  Are there any plans to support
> over-full servers like this?  I think the donor-based communities are
> probably the ones with the most contributions to the TF2 community as a
> whole, and they're the ones that tend to give out reserved slots as
> incentive to donate.  Some legitimate way to allow reserved slots without
> hurting quickplay eligibility would be /very/ nice.
>
> All in all, amazing update Fletcher.  I'm glad to see the QP issues being
> addressed, and the gameserver accounts becoming a reality.
>
> --
>
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> Owner / Web Developer
> FirePowered LLC
> w: https://firepoweredgaming.com
> e: j...@ranndesigns.com
>
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Re: [hlds_linux] So let's have a look at what happened since Valve turned off quickplay by default

[Robert Paulson]

That is easy for you to say but absolutely unhelpful to server owners who
started with vanilla settings. They can change to non quickplay settings to
appeal to browser only players, but then they will alienate their current
players, losing all their seeders, AND they have to compete with your
established server to fight over the few server browsers looking for a new
server.

We also have servers that were never on quickplay and they are seeing a
small but accelerating decrease of players. Why is this also harming
non-quickplay servers? Because new players are now being conditioned to
play on official Valve servers and they are never made aware that there are
non-quickplay type servers they would enjoy.

This will eventually affect your non-quickplay server even if you don't
notice it yet. You will not see this reflected on your gametracker rank
because it affects all community servers.

Bribe players with secret saxtoners to stay on your server as if we weren't
spending enough money on servers? Using your steam group? Do you know there
is a very small and invisible limit on the people you can invite now and
another limit that makes all non-friend invites silently fail?  Isn't there
something wrong with the system when these gimmicks are the only way to get
players instead of letting community servers compete equally with official
servers?

I am sorry but your suggestions don't help at all. Disabling community
quickplay must be reversed or a compromise must be made if Valve really
cares about the long term player experience instead of a sloppy fix for
players too lazy to use the browser and likely to not have paid Valve a
single dime.


On Wed, Feb 5, 2014 at 11:40 AM, Martin V  wrote:

> "And my servers are in the top 50 on Gametracker."
> My server is in top20-15 and I don't see any player drops/decreasing.
> Probably because my server is 'banned' (or has really LOW priority
> in quickplay) from quickplay system for my tags:
> increased_maxplayers,nocrits,nodmgspread,respawntimes
>
> Maybe you should try not to depend on quickplay so much? Try expending your
> community and put some life into servers. Make some events. Prizes for
> players etc.
> Try using your steam group to fill the server with loyal players. Throw
> some secret saxtoners like we do :)
> USE YOUR IMAGINATION AND ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE! :D
>
> Try using this plugin:
> https://forums.alliedmods.net/showthread.php?p=2060588 <-- it show you
> where your traffic is comming from (what connection method).
>
>
> 2014-02-05 Chris Oryschak :
>
> > ics,
> >
> > You're not the only one; i'm seeing the exact same trend on my servers.
> >  Traffic is 50-58% decreased and I heavily rely on my community of 5 yrs
> to
> > get the servers going come mid/late afternoon when they get home from
> > school & work.
> >
> > If it wasn't for having my community built up for so long my servers
> would
> > be on the brink of death, give it a few months and without being able to
> > attract more players to replenish the community base i can see my servers
> > dwindling down to nothing.
> >
> > And my servers are in the top 50 on Gametracker.
> >
> > Fletcher - Can you chime in on this, it would be really nice to get a
> Valve
> > response on the mailing list instead of having to rely on 3rd party
> sources
> > of email exchanges.  I know why Valve has done what they have done but it
> > would be really nice to get some feedback and/or maybe collectively come
> up
> > with some solutions that favor both the community servers and valves
> strict
> > 'vanilla' experience.
> >
> > We (community operators) would just like to regain some comfort knowing
> > this isn't the death of us.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Feb 5, 2014 at 12:53 PM, ics  wrote:
> >
> > > Some time has now passed since Valve defaulted quickplay to Valve
> servers
> > > only on TF2 and we are taking the hit. Roughly half of our servers it
> now
> > > empty. Changes daily which servers have players and which have not so
> > it's
> > > not really a lack of people not knowing them are there but lack of
> > players
> > > one and nobody enters. They switch to fuller servers and since there
> > isn't
> > > much new players entering automatically and regulars are hesitant to
> > enter
> > > empty ones, this is where we are.
> > >
> > > So after running servers for TF2 since the game came out, this is what
> i
> > > get, go away message? You don't want me to run servers anylonger? I
> don't
> > > run crap on servers or advertisements or any mods, except for
> > > administration between servers. Thanks a lot, Valve.
> > >
> > > -ics
> > >
> > > ___
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> > > please visit:
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> > please visit:
> > h

Re: [hlds_linux] Prevent game servers from redirecting players to alternate servers when players connect through quickplay

[Robert Paulson]

Please don't conflate this issue with ads. Ads were already being blocked
from quickplay. This additional restriction is an unnecessary slap in the
face that doesn't do anything except siphon all the players to Valve.

Just because you can sell pay-to-win perks on css zombie mod doesn't mean
that is the economic model that everyone else should embrace. If CSS had
quickplay I doubt your servers would be half as full as they are now.


On Thu, Jan 23, 2014 at 7:44 PM, Kyle Sanderson  wrote:

> Sure the new quickplay stuff is opt-out, like the player slots
> restriction that was added to CS:S; but it's hopefully a remembered
> setting and one time thing.
>
> This is probably a horrible time, but honestly I'm glad to see Valve
> is reverting their decision to jump into bed with Pinion. I can't wait
> for their ad-powered L4D and L4D2 servers to disappear. I can't really
> blame any communities because it's not like they came up with the idea
> on their own. Valve started promoting the usage with their `Quickplay`
> servers, and it went from there into other games. Reverting it now
> seems to be a half-handed action...
>
> http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showpost.php?p=32478884&postcount=11
> http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showpost.php?p=33551508&postcount=13
>
> Hell, they even have a special user-group on SPUF.
>
> Not to be that guy, but I think ProdigySim said it best:
> http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showpost.php?p=32997278&postcount=12.
>
> They're still trying to recruit communities too. About 9? months ago
> they (Pinion Arthur) contacted myself and a few others on Steam to add
> their plugin to our servers...
>
> Hopefully we'll see a day where Valve becomes unified and stops
> officially supporting Ads in games, without cabbals inner-fighting and
> sending mixed messages to everyone.
>
> Forever waiting,
> Kyle.
>
> On Thu, Jan 23, 2014 at 8:20 PM, Doctor McKay 
> wrote:
> > While I agree with what you are saying, what does cl_connectmethod have
> to
> > do with any of this?
> > On Jan 23, 2014 9:12 PM, "Robert Paulson"  wrote:
> >
> >> First they came for the custom attachments, and I did not speak out.
> >> Because I did not use it.
> >> Then they came for fast respawn, and I did not speak out. Because I did
> not
> >> use it.
> >> Then they came for increased slots, and I did not speak out. Because I
> did
> >> not use it.
> >> Then they came for the MOTD, and I did not speak out. Because it would
> hurt
> >> others more than me.
> >> Then they came for me, and there was no one left to speak for me.
> >>
> >> This is a repeat of the "Custom Tabs" fiasco. Except Valve probably
> won't
> >> remove it this time because they can wave the evidence that a minority
> of
> >> players use quickplay, despite the fact that quickplay has a monopoly on
> >> new players and without them your server is dead. Your current players
> >> won't play TF2 forever.
> >>
> >> I saw this coming a mile away when Valve released the cl_connectmethod
> >> convar. As I have said time and time again, Valve has obligations to
> server
> >> owners as well as players. We, or at least I, bought TF2  expecting not
> to
> >> have our hosting abilities crippled so much.
> >>
> >> On Thu, Jan 23, 2014 at 5:11 PM, Doctor McKay 
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> > Why?
> >> >
> >> > Adding a "Valve servers only" checkbox (that's checked by default) is
> >> going
> >> > to hurt enough (and only those communities that are playing by the
> rules;
> >> > cheating communities will just steal *more* traffic from the
> legitimate
> >> > communities).
> >> >
> >> > It's now all but impossible to try to retain a client who joined via
> >> > Quickplay (and those are the clients we *need* to retain). We can't
> show
> >> > them our website. We can't even allow them to use a menu to jump to
> >> another
> >> > one of our servers anymore.
> >> >
> >> > Please think about what you're doing. If your intention is to harm the
> >> good
> >> > communities, you're doing a fine job at it.
> >> >
> >> > Dr. McKay
> >> > www.doctormckay.com
> >> > ___
> >> > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list a

Re: [hlds_linux] Prevent game servers from redirecting players to alternate servers when players connect through quickplay

[Robert Paulson]

It's quite obvious really. Valve only makes features to benefit themselves
or players, and cl_connectmethod was at face value did not do either one.

They don't care about server owners having this knowledge unless it
benefits them and didn't even bother to protect the convar from spoofing by
a using 1 convar flag.

Its main purpose was to stop server owners from complaining about all the
restrictions placed on quickplay on the flawed assumption that quickplay is
a tiny and unimportant part of your player base.



On Thu, Jan 23, 2014 at 7:20 PM, Doctor McKay  wrote:

> While I agree with what you are saying, what does cl_connectmethod have to
> do with any of this?
> On Jan 23, 2014 9:12 PM, "Robert Paulson"  wrote:
>
> > First they came for the custom attachments, and I did not speak out.
> > Because I did not use it.
> > Then they came for fast respawn, and I did not speak out. Because I did
> not
> > use it.
> > Then they came for increased slots, and I did not speak out. Because I
> did
> > not use it.
> > Then they came for the MOTD, and I did not speak out. Because it would
> hurt
> > others more than me.
> > Then they came for me, and there was no one left to speak for me.
> >
> > This is a repeat of the "Custom Tabs" fiasco. Except Valve probably won't
> > remove it this time because they can wave the evidence that a minority of
> > players use quickplay, despite the fact that quickplay has a monopoly on
> > new players and without them your server is dead. Your current players
> > won't play TF2 forever.
> >
> > I saw this coming a mile away when Valve released the cl_connectmethod
> > convar. As I have said time and time again, Valve has obligations to
> server
> > owners as well as players. We, or at least I, bought TF2  expecting not
> to
> > have our hosting abilities crippled so much.
> >
> > On Thu, Jan 23, 2014 at 5:11 PM, Doctor McKay 
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Why?
> > >
> > > Adding a "Valve servers only" checkbox (that's checked by default) is
> > going
> > > to hurt enough (and only those communities that are playing by the
> rules;
> > > cheating communities will just steal *more* traffic from the legitimate
> > > communities).
> > >
> > > It's now all but impossible to try to retain a client who joined via
> > > Quickplay (and those are the clients we *need* to retain). We can't
> show
> > > them our website. We can't even allow them to use a menu to jump to
> > another
> > > one of our servers anymore.
> > >
> > > Please think about what you're doing. If your intention is to harm the
> > good
> > > communities, you're doing a fine job at it.
> > >
> > > Dr. McKay
> > > www.doctormckay.com
> > > ___
> > > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
> > > please visit:
> > > https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
> > >
> > ___
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> > please visit:
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> >
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Re: [hlds_linux] Prevent game servers from redirecting players to alternate servers when players connect through quickplay

[Robert Paulson]

First they came for the custom attachments, and I did not speak out.
Because I did not use it.
Then they came for fast respawn, and I did not speak out. Because I did not
use it.
Then they came for increased slots, and I did not speak out. Because I did
not use it.
Then they came for the MOTD, and I did not speak out. Because it would hurt
others more than me.
Then they came for me, and there was no one left to speak for me.

This is a repeat of the "Custom Tabs" fiasco. Except Valve probably won't
remove it this time because they can wave the evidence that a minority of
players use quickplay, despite the fact that quickplay has a monopoly on
new players and without them your server is dead. Your current players
won't play TF2 forever.

I saw this coming a mile away when Valve released the cl_connectmethod
convar. As I have said time and time again, Valve has obligations to server
owners as well as players. We, or at least I, bought TF2  expecting not to
have our hosting abilities crippled so much.

On Thu, Jan 23, 2014 at 5:11 PM, Doctor McKay  wrote:

> Why?
>
> Adding a "Valve servers only" checkbox (that's checked by default) is going
> to hurt enough (and only those communities that are playing by the rules;
> cheating communities will just steal *more* traffic from the legitimate
> communities).
>
> It's now all but impossible to try to retain a client who joined via
> Quickplay (and those are the clients we *need* to retain). We can't show
> them our website. We can't even allow them to use a menu to jump to another
> one of our servers anymore.
>
> Please think about what you're doing. If your intention is to harm the good
> communities, you're doing a fine job at it.
>
> Dr. McKay
> www.doctormckay.com
> ___
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Re: [hlds_linux] Intel I5-3550 + TF2/32 Players?

[Robert Paulson]

Can't comment on that specific model, but srcds keeps using more and more
CPU every patch. I think it now uses 15% more cpu since summer. Anyone else
notice this?


On Tue, Jan 14, 2014 at 7:12 AM, Chris Oryschak  wrote:

> Does anyone run a 32 man TF2 server on the Intel I5-3550, 3.3Ghz.
> OS would be Ubuntu.
>
> I'm contemplating moving hosts and picking up this dedicated machine as a
> replacement.  Just want to make sure it can handle the player count before
> I drop any money.
>
> Thanks,
> Chris
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Re: [hlds_linux] Coming soon: changes to TF HTML MOTD support

[Robert Paulson]

For someone who tries so hard to sound logical, it is sad you can't make a
simple deduction. Just because you use quickplay doesn't mean you are
qualified to speak on behalf of all quickplay users. Your track record
shows that.


On Fri, Nov 8, 2013 at 6:50 AM, dan  wrote:

> On 08/11/2013 09:39, Robert Paulson wrote:
>
>> While you may not personally care about plugins broken by Valve, there are
>> other people who do. Every TF2 player is not like you. You aren't even the
>> majority as according to Valve most players don't use quickplay. Ponder
>> this for a moment before writing your next essay.
>>
>
> The change only affects quickplay so I'm not sure what you're blathering
> about.
>
> Maybe you should read the large print edition of the mailing list?
>
>
> --
> Dan
>
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Re: [hlds_linux] Coming soon: changes to TF HTML MOTD support

[Robert Paulson]

I don't know why you think writing an essay makes you more credible. Every
argument you make is purely based on your personal opinion. As far as
anyone can see you lost all credibility here when you kept repeatedly
claiming that changing IPs doesn't result in major player loss for "real
communities".

While you may not personally care about plugins broken by Valve, there are
other people who do. Every TF2 player is not like you. You aren't even the
majority as according to Valve most players don't use quickplay. Ponder
this for a moment before writing your next essay.


On Thu, Nov 7, 2013 at 11:10 PM, dan  wrote:

> On 07/11/2013 23:13, Robert Paulson wrote:
>
>> I don't see how that is safe to say.
>>
>
> I've donned my cycle helmet just in case.
> You think that will be enough?
>
>
>  Does everyone here really prefer Valve to kill off a little competition
>> rather than trying to get features back? Whatever happened to the people
>> who cared about their radio/bp/rules plugins?
>>
>
> It's only quickplay. No one sane is going to click quickplay and
> hope they randomly land on a radio enabled server if they
> want or appreciate the feature.
>
> 
> "Oh not a radio server"
> 
> "Oh not a radio server"
> 
> "Oh not a radio server"
> 
> "Oh not a radio server"
> 
> 'type !radio to enable radio'
> "Yes!"
> > !radio
> Admin : "That won't work now"
> "Damn you valve!"
>
> That's really not happening is it?
>
> It's easy enough to type rules in text (although I'd probably
> expect anyone with prescriptive rules about, say, what
> language you have to speak or where you can stand and so on
> would probably be best sticking to non-quickplay traffic in any case)
>
> --
> Dan
>
>
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Re: [hlds_linux] Coming soon: changes to TF HTML MOTD support

[Robert Paulson]

I don't see how that is safe to say.

If it was meant to stop people from using fake players, it won't stop.
People were using fake players to get donation money before ads were even a
thing.

If it was to stop continually reloading ads, this is an extremely blunt and
roundabout method. I have a hard time believing Valve would chose to save a
few minutes choosing the worst but easiest option.

Does everyone here really prefer Valve to kill off a little competition
rather than trying to get features back? Whatever happened to the people
who cared about their radio/bp/rules plugins?


On Thu, Nov 7, 2013 at 2:57 PM, Doctor McKay  wrote:

> Even without an official statement, it's fairly safe to say that this
> change was directed toward stopping servers that (a) manipulate the
> Quickplay system to send themselves unfair amounts of traffic for ad hits,
> and (b) continually reload ads in the background of clients that join.
>
>
> Dr. McKay
> www.doctormckay.com
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 7, 2013 at 5:54 PM, Robert Paulson  >wrote:
>
> > There is no point in all this random speculation until Valve tells us why
> > the MOTD was crippled even more.
> >
> > - Is it to stop reloading ads every second in the background?
> > - Is it a step towards removing all ads?
> > - Is this a permanent change, or is it just a quick hack that will it be
> > replaced with a more appropriate solution?
> >
> > Without knowing the real reason it is pointless to keep arguing about how
> > quickplay this or ads vs donations that.
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Nov 7, 2013 at 1:26 PM, Daniel Barreiro <
> > smelly.feet.you.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > http://motdgd.com/terms-of-service/
> > > http://ads.elitepowered.com/?page_id=176
> > >
> > > Copying another company's ToS and modifying it very slightly isn't very
> > > respectable business practice either.
> > >
> > >
> > > On Thu, Nov 7, 2013 at 4:18 PM, Guardian Cipher <
> > guardiancip...@gmail.com
> > > >wrote:
> > >
> > > > Isn't it illegal to advertise clients on your website that aren't
> > > actually
> > > > your clients? http://servers.elitepowered.com/
> > > >
> > > > I highly doubt you have Valve as a client.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Thu, Nov 7, 2013 at 4:11 PM, 1nsane <1nsane...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > I agree with this. If not for him we wouldn't be having this issue
> > now.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Thu, Nov 7, 2013 at 3:25 PM, Todd Pettit  >
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Ab, this whole thing is pretty much directly YOUR FAULT! You
> > brazenly
> > > > ran
> > > > > > fake clients on 100+ servers (again) to spoof quickplay into
> > sending
> > > > you
> > > > > > players. The update before last had a change specifically made to
> > ban
> > > > > YOUR
> > > > > > servers. The simpler solution would to of banned you and your kin
> > > from
> > > > > > steam forever.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > You are not fooling anyone. Everyone knows you as a complete
> > scammer.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > -T
> > > > > >
> > > > > ___
> > > > > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list
> > archives,
> > > > > please visit:
> > > > > https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
> > > > >
> > > > ___
> > > > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list
> archives,
> > > > please visit:
> > > > https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
> > > >
> > > ___
> > > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
> > > please visit:
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> > >
> > ___
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Re: [hlds_linux] Coming soon: changes to TF HTML MOTD support

[Robert Paulson]

There is no point in all this random speculation until Valve tells us why
the MOTD was crippled even more.

- Is it to stop reloading ads every second in the background?
- Is it a step towards removing all ads?
- Is this a permanent change, or is it just a quick hack that will it be
replaced with a more appropriate solution?

Without knowing the real reason it is pointless to keep arguing about how
quickplay this or ads vs donations that.


On Thu, Nov 7, 2013 at 1:26 PM, Daniel Barreiro <
smelly.feet.you.h...@gmail.com> wrote:

> http://motdgd.com/terms-of-service/
> http://ads.elitepowered.com/?page_id=176
>
> Copying another company's ToS and modifying it very slightly isn't very
> respectable business practice either.
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 7, 2013 at 4:18 PM, Guardian Cipher  >wrote:
>
> > Isn't it illegal to advertise clients on your website that aren't
> actually
> > your clients? http://servers.elitepowered.com/
> >
> > I highly doubt you have Valve as a client.
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Nov 7, 2013 at 4:11 PM, 1nsane <1nsane...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > I agree with this. If not for him we wouldn't be having this issue now.
> > >
> > >
> > > On Thu, Nov 7, 2013 at 3:25 PM, Todd Pettit 
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Ab, this whole thing is pretty much directly YOUR FAULT! You brazenly
> > ran
> > > > fake clients on 100+ servers (again) to spoof quickplay into sending
> > you
> > > > players. The update before last had a change specifically made to ban
> > > YOUR
> > > > servers. The simpler solution would to of banned you and your kin
> from
> > > > steam forever.
> > > >
> > > > You are not fooling anyone. Everyone knows you as a complete scammer.
> > > >
> > > > -T
> > > >
> > > ___
> > > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
> > > please visit:
> > > https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
> > >
> > ___
> > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
> > please visit:
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> >
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Re: [hlds_linux] Coming soon: changes to TF HTML MOTD support

[Robert Paulson]

>From what I heard ads needed to be watched for X seconds before being paid.
Any communities that were reliant on ads being served to quickplay users
would have already shut down by now.

This new limitation just seems to serve as an annoyance to perfectly
legitimate server owners rather than to kill off all ad supported servers.

I hope there will be more people who share my views rather than thinking:
oh good Valve is going to shut down more of our competition.


On Wed, Nov 6, 2013 at 4:19 PM, N-Gon  wrote:

> Oddly enough, a handful of communities have been shut down because of the
> recent changes. This one will affect a few more.
> Can't say I'm saddened by this since those communities were cancer to TF2.
>
>
> On Wed, Nov 6, 2013 at 7:15 PM, Robert Paulson  >wrote:
>
> > Can you tell us the reason for this change? Is there no other solution
> > rather than removing functionality from the game?
> >
> > The complaint before was forced ads. Servers cannot resend the MOTD to
> > quickplay players anymore so I don't understand why additional
> restrictions
> > need to be introduced.
> >
> > HTML motds are superior to text motds even only shown at connection. They
> > look better and they allow you to update the page without rebooting the
> > server. Especially when it comes to TF2 players, no one is going to pay
> > attention to an unformatted wall of text that could contain important
> rules
> > or links to your website. With these new restrictions both the webpage
> and
> > the text file needs to be maintained.
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Nov 6, 2013 at 3:53 PM, Fletcher Dunn
> > wrote:
> >
> > > It's something enforced by the client, and is a function of how they
> > > connected to that particular server, not any particular server
> settings.
> > >
> > > If they connect via the server browser (or command line, etc) then they
> > > will show HTML.
> > >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto:
> > > hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Todd Pettit
> > > Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2013 2:41 PM
> > > To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list
> > > Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Coming soon: changes to TF HTML MOTD support
> > >
> > > Would those who connected outside of matchmaking be able to use html on
> > > quickplay enabled servers or does enabling quickplay disable html
> > > completely?
> > >
> > > - Original Message -
> > > From: "Valentin G." 
> > > To: "Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list" <
> > > hlds_linux@list.valvesoftware.com>
> > > Sent: Wednesday, November 6, 2013 6:29:32 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Coming soon: changes to TF HTML MOTD support
> > >
> > > I'm not concerned about change 1 but change 2 in that regard ;)
> > >
> > >
> > > On Thu, Nov 7, 2013 at 12:26 AM, DontWannaName! <
> ad...@topnotchclan.com
> > > >wrote:
> > >
> > > > Couldn't you just leave the txt file empty?
> > > >
> > > > Sent from my iPhone 5
> > > >
> > > > > On Nov 6, 2013, at 3:22 PM, "Valentin G." 
> > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > about:blank is no longer valid?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Thu, Nov 7, 2013 at 12:13 AM, Fletcher Dunn
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >> That's correct; #2 is a Source engine change.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> -Original Message-
> > > > >> From: hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto:
> > > > >> hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Kyle
> > > > >> Sanderson
> > > > >> Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2013 3:09 PM
> > > > >> To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list
> > > > >> Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Coming soon: changes to TF HTML MOTD
> > > > >> support
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Does the latter impact all Source 2k7 games?
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Thanks,
> > > > >> Kyle.
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >> On Wed, Nov 6, 2013 at 4:03 PM, Fletcher Dunn
> > > > >> wrote:
> > > > >>
> > > > >>> We&

Re: [hlds_linux] Coming soon: changes to TF HTML MOTD support

[Robert Paulson]

Can you tell us the reason for this change? Is there no other solution
rather than removing functionality from the game?

The complaint before was forced ads. Servers cannot resend the MOTD to
quickplay players anymore so I don't understand why additional restrictions
need to be introduced.

HTML motds are superior to text motds even only shown at connection. They
look better and they allow you to update the page without rebooting the
server. Especially when it comes to TF2 players, no one is going to pay
attention to an unformatted wall of text that could contain important rules
or links to your website. With these new restrictions both the webpage and
the text file needs to be maintained.


On Wed, Nov 6, 2013 at 3:53 PM, Fletcher Dunn
wrote:

> It's something enforced by the client, and is a function of how they
> connected to that particular server, not any particular server settings.
>
> If they connect via the server browser (or command line, etc) then they
> will show HTML.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto:
> hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Todd Pettit
> Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2013 2:41 PM
> To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list
> Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Coming soon: changes to TF HTML MOTD support
>
> Would those who connected outside of matchmaking be able to use html on
> quickplay enabled servers or does enabling quickplay disable html
> completely?
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Valentin G." 
> To: "Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list" <
> hlds_linux@list.valvesoftware.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, November 6, 2013 6:29:32 PM
> Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Coming soon: changes to TF HTML MOTD support
>
> I'm not concerned about change 1 but change 2 in that regard ;)
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 7, 2013 at 12:26 AM, DontWannaName!  >wrote:
>
> > Couldn't you just leave the txt file empty?
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone 5
> >
> > > On Nov 6, 2013, at 3:22 PM, "Valentin G."  wrote:
> > >
> > > about:blank is no longer valid?
> > >
> > >
> > > On Thu, Nov 7, 2013 at 12:13 AM, Fletcher Dunn
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > >> That's correct; #2 is a Source engine change.
> > >>
> > >> -Original Message-
> > >> From: hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto:
> > >> hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Kyle
> > >> Sanderson
> > >> Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2013 3:09 PM
> > >> To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list
> > >> Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Coming soon: changes to TF HTML MOTD
> > >> support
> > >>
> > >> Does the latter impact all Source 2k7 games?
> > >>
> > >> Thanks,
> > >> Kyle.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> On Wed, Nov 6, 2013 at 4:03 PM, Fletcher Dunn
> > >> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> We're making two changes to TF HTML MOTD support that server
> > >>> operators should be aware of:
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> 1.)HTML MOTD's will no longer be shown by clients that connect
> via
> > >>> quickplay.  Those clients will show the plaintext message instead.
> > >>> (The file identified by the convar motdfile_text, which defaults
> > >>> to
> > >>> motd_text.txt.)
> > >>>
> > >>> 2.)When sending a URL to the "info" panel by name, the URL must
> > begin
> > >>> with 'http://' or 'https://'.  Note that this change does not
> > >>> affect putting a URL in motd.txt directly, which has always
> > >>> required a protocol prefix in order for the file contents to be
> > >>> interpreted as a
> > >> URL.
> > >>>
> > >>> ___
> > >>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list
> > >>> archives, please visit:
> > >>> https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
> > >> ___
> > >> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list
> > >> archives, please visit:
> > >> https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
> > >>
> > >> ___
> > >> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list
> > >> archives, please visit:
> > >> https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
> > > ___
> > > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list
> > > archives,
> > please visit:
> > > https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
> >
> > ___
> > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
> > please visit:
> > https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
> >
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> please visit

Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops can ban HWID too.

[Robert Paulson]

For someone claiming to be so logical there is distinct lack of reasoning.

"I think I played TF2 for at least 2000 hours, possibly 3000 before
quickplay appeared on servers that were nearly always full.How did those
people join the server? Do you think they all had comp sci phds or
something?"

Before Valve shrunk the size of the TF2 Browse button by 1/2 and stuffed it
under Quickplay and MvM, everyone who played TF2 was forced to learn how to
use the browser. Sure a server will recover, but it will take as long as
half a year and sometimes won't even return to its original size. Even if
someone knows how to favorite a server, who wants to dig it out of 10,000
TF2 servers? Personally I wouldn't want to either.

I will try to make this my last reply to you, because your claims can all
be refuted with the same answer: All the assumptions you keep making don't
line up with the evidence everyone here is telling you.



On Sun, Aug 25, 2013 at 7:36 PM, dan  wrote:

> On 25/08/2013 23:37, Robert Paulson wrote:
>
>> I don't know how many times I have to repeat this but you can make all the
>> "logical" assumptions you want and assume that most players are smart and
>> aren't lazy (lol?).
>>
>
> I wouldn't go as far as saying they are smart.
> I just think they are no more or less dumb than you.
>
> And specifically I'm not assuming they are smart enough to join a server,
> I've a ton of evidence that shows they must be smart enough to do it.
>
> As I asked, can you find and join a server? If so, what makes you think
> you have some special skill that others do not?
>
> I think I played TF2 for at least 2000 hours, possibly 3000 before
> quickplay appeared
> on servers that were nearly always full.
>
> How did those people join the server? Do you think they all
> had comp sci phds or something?
>
> No. Any buffoon can play a computer game. Just as any buffoon can run a
> server.
>
> As I said, some of those servers I played on right at the beginning are
> still there. They appear
> right at the top of the server browser if I sort by ping, just
> as they did 6 years ago. I can see they are there from their
> description which has remained more or less the same for all
> that time.
>
> The company running them has a presence on the web that if they
> "disappeared" you could go and see why.
>
> There's no need at all for them to appear in the history or favourites
> section
> to find them.
>
> Besides I remain unconvinced that a server which has
> changed host or other significant things like that, should be seen as the
> same server in any case.
>
> Indeed, if you want to go down the route of having some kind of identifier
> for a servers I think Valve
> would be wise to consider when that identifier should change. Seems to me
> that
> a server being on the same IP shouldn't just been seen as the same server
> that someone added to their
> favourites if significant changes to the config or installation have
> occurred.
>
> If you want to blather on about community, you can't
> in the next breath claim that your entire community will disappear
> the moment your server changes ip address.
>
> If you have any semblance of a community attached or related to your
> server,
> you should have plenty of ways of communicating information about changes
> to the server
> to them and they should have plenty of motivation to look for you.
>
> --
> Dan
>
>
> __**_
> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
> please visit:
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Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops can ban HWID too.

[Robert Paulson]

You don't have to ask Valve to get someone's hardware ID. It could be found
via a trojan or by brute force.

It would be trivial for a cheater to start tweaking his mac address (likely
one of the hardware ID components) until Steam tells him that it is
associated with an innocent SteamID or until Steamguard pops up, telling
him that he is safe from hardware ID bans.



On Sun, Aug 25, 2013 at 7:07 PM, Scruppy Dawg  wrote:

> They would never know what your HWID was to begin with. Read the post above
> by Erik-jan Riemers.
>
>
> On Sun, Aug 25, 2013 at 9:18 PM, Robert Paulson  >wrote:
>
> > I know it is rude to derail a thread, but when Valve's attention could be
> > pointed to more important and attainable goal, I have to say something.
> >
> > Hardware ID will never be public because server has to trust the client
> and
> > thus it is spoofable. Just because it says "Hardware" doesn't mean the ID
> > sent to Steam can't be changed. If this ever becomes a thing, look
> forward
> > to cheaters spoofing your hardware ID and getting you banned.
> >
> > DNS favorites is a much more important and attainable goal.
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Aug 25, 2013 at 3:42 PM, Erik-jan Riemers 
> > wrote:
> >
> > > If valve stores the hwid, it would be much nicer to just ask "What
> other
> > > steamid's does this user use too?" and valve could reply, not even
> > sending
> > > out the hwid to the middle person.
> > > We could query that as a api service, and would also help with trade
> > > banning and the likes or ban evasion. Sure it might be more traffic,
> but
> > > in the end if the storm calms down, so will that (until they "cheaters"
> > > find something new)
> > >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com
> > > [mailto:hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Robert
> > > Paulson
> > > Sent: maandag 26 augustus 2013 0:38
> > > To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list
> > > Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops
> > can
> > > ban HWID too.
> > >
> > > For those of you who don't pay attention to his posts for the past
> couple
> > > of years, the line of thinking from dan needaxeo goes something like
> > this:
> > >
> > > "Once I put up a plain server and no one joined it because everyone
> else
> > > cheats and they couldn't possibly have a better server. So any
> > > improvements especially those helping non-Valve servers should be
> ignored
> > > because it helps cheaters trick players. Also every player thinks the
> > same
> > > way I do so no one ever has a reason to join any server over a Valve
> > > server."
> > >
> > > I don't know how many times I have to repeat this but you can make all
> > the
> > > "logical" assumptions you want and assume that most players are smart
> and
> > > aren't lazy (lol?). It just doesn't line up with reality which is why
> > > people keep requesting DNS.
> > >
> > > If there was nothing special about any particular server in the first
> > > place then there wouldn't be a large population drop every time the IP
> > > changed.
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sun, Aug 25, 2013 at 2:51 PM, Eli Witt  wrote:
> > >
> > > > past time to take this off the mailing list, thanks in advance you
> two.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Sun, Aug 25, 2013 at 5:18 PM, dan  wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > On 25/08/2013 21:50, Robert Paulson wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >> You can keep arguing about how "logical" your thinking is but it
> > > > >> doesn't matter because it doesn't line up with reality. I've seen
> > > > >> this problem affect dozens of servers, even those that are totally
> > > > >> off quickplay such as Azelphur's Surf server.
> > > > >>
> > > > >
> > > > > Who cares?
> > > > >
> > > > > If "most users" (and let's face it, most users have never and will
> > > > > never connect to your server)  are really as stupid as you hope
> (and
> > > > > as I said, if you think you know how to do something that a lot of
> > > > > people don't then you've got a rude awake

Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops can ban HWID too.

[Robert Paulson]

I know it is rude to derail a thread, but when Valve's attention could be
pointed to more important and attainable goal, I have to say something.

Hardware ID will never be public because server has to trust the client and
thus it is spoofable. Just because it says "Hardware" doesn't mean the ID
sent to Steam can't be changed. If this ever becomes a thing, look forward
to cheaters spoofing your hardware ID and getting you banned.

DNS favorites is a much more important and attainable goal.


On Sun, Aug 25, 2013 at 3:42 PM, Erik-jan Riemers  wrote:

> If valve stores the hwid, it would be much nicer to just ask "What other
> steamid's does this user use too?" and valve could reply, not even sending
> out the hwid to the middle person.
> We could query that as a api service, and would also help with trade
> banning and the likes or ban evasion. Sure it might be more traffic, but
> in the end if the storm calms down, so will that (until they "cheaters"
> find something new)
>
> -Original Message-
> From: hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com
> [mailto:hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Robert
> Paulson
> Sent: maandag 26 augustus 2013 0:38
> To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list
> Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops can
> ban HWID too.
>
> For those of you who don't pay attention to his posts for the past couple
> of years, the line of thinking from dan needaxeo goes something like this:
>
> "Once I put up a plain server and no one joined it because everyone else
> cheats and they couldn't possibly have a better server. So any
> improvements especially those helping non-Valve servers should be ignored
> because it helps cheaters trick players. Also every player thinks the same
> way I do so no one ever has a reason to join any server over a Valve
> server."
>
> I don't know how many times I have to repeat this but you can make all the
> "logical" assumptions you want and assume that most players are smart and
> aren't lazy (lol?). It just doesn't line up with reality which is why
> people keep requesting DNS.
>
> If there was nothing special about any particular server in the first
> place then there wouldn't be a large population drop every time the IP
> changed.
>
>
> On Sun, Aug 25, 2013 at 2:51 PM, Eli Witt  wrote:
>
> > past time to take this off the mailing list, thanks in advance you two.
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Aug 25, 2013 at 5:18 PM, dan  wrote:
> >
> > > On 25/08/2013 21:50, Robert Paulson wrote:
> > >
> > >> You can keep arguing about how "logical" your thinking is but it
> > >> doesn't matter because it doesn't line up with reality. I've seen
> > >> this problem affect dozens of servers, even those that are totally
> > >> off quickplay such as Azelphur's Surf server.
> > >>
> > >
> > > Who cares?
> > >
> > > If "most users" (and let's face it, most users have never and will
> > > never connect to your server)  are really as stupid as you hope (and
> > > as I said, if you think you know how to do something that a lot of
> > > people don't then you've got a rude awakening coming up at some
> > > point in your life) then clearly they find another server to play
> > > on.
> > >
> > > What do you imagine they do? Sit in a pool of tears wondering where
> > > your server went?
> > >
> > > Do you not have a web site or a server? You know a server that can
> > > run plugins and pop up information, on the MOTD and so on?
> > >
> > > Perhaps a lot of servers find their users switched off MOTD because
> > > they used it for something no one wants to read.  (Of course your
> > > users won't have switched it off because they are all, according to
> > > you, conveniently too stupid to do anything)
> > >
> > > So, you know, if /you/ can't find or join a server feel free to ask
> > > and we'll talk you through the process, But don't sit there trying
> > > to kid the list that most users are dumb.
> > >
> > > If you're really struggling to think of ways of communicating that
> > > you
> > are
> > > changing
> > > ip address to the small group of people that use your server
> > > regularly, again, ask away for ideas.
> > > But don't sit there trying to kid us that you cannot fix your broken
> > > server without this feature.
> > >
> &g

Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops can ban HWID too.

[Robert Paulson]

For those of you who don't pay attention to his posts for the past couple
of years, the line of thinking from dan needaxeo goes something like this:

"Once I put up a plain server and no one joined it because everyone else
cheats and they couldn't possibly have a better server. So any improvements
especially those helping non-Valve servers should be ignored because it
helps cheaters trick players. Also every player thinks the same way I do so
no one ever has a reason to join any server over a Valve server."

I don't know how many times I have to repeat this but you can make all the
"logical" assumptions you want and assume that most players are smart and
aren't lazy (lol?). It just doesn't line up with reality which is why
people keep requesting DNS.

If there was nothing special about any particular server in the first place
then there wouldn't be a large population drop every time the IP changed.


On Sun, Aug 25, 2013 at 2:51 PM, Eli Witt  wrote:

> past time to take this off the mailing list, thanks in advance you two.
>
>
> On Sun, Aug 25, 2013 at 5:18 PM, dan  wrote:
>
> > On 25/08/2013 21:50, Robert Paulson wrote:
> >
> >> You can keep arguing about how "logical" your thinking is but it doesn't
> >> matter because it doesn't line up with reality. I've seen this problem
> >> affect dozens of servers, even those that are totally off quickplay such
> >> as
> >> Azelphur's Surf server.
> >>
> >
> > Who cares?
> >
> > If "most users" (and let's face it, most users
> > have never and will never connect to your server)  are really
> > as stupid as you hope (and as I said, if you think you know
> > how to do something that a lot of people don't then you've got a rude
> > awakening
> > coming up at some point in your life) then clearly they find another
> > server to play on.
> >
> > What do you imagine they do? Sit in a pool of tears wondering where your
> > server went?
> >
> > Do you not have a web site or a server? You know a server that can run
> > plugins and pop up information, on the MOTD and so on?
> >
> > Perhaps a lot of servers find their users switched off MOTD because they
> > used it for something no one wants to read.  (Of course your users
> > won't have switched it off because they are all, according to you,
> > conveniently too stupid to do anything)
> >
> > So, you know, if /you/ can't find or join a server feel free to ask and
> > we'll talk you through the process,
> > But don't sit there trying to kid the list that most users are dumb.
> >
> > If you're really struggling to think of ways of communicating that you
> are
> > changing
> > ip address to the small group of people that use your server regularly,
> > again, ask away for ideas.
> > But don't sit there trying to kid us that you cannot fix your broken
> > server without this feature.
> >
> > If a server empties when it changes IP then self-evidently there was
> > nothing particulary special about that server.
> >
> > Personally, I cannot think of a single server on the TF2 list that has
> any
> > characteristic that would make me join it rather than another.
> > Except stuff like ping and the network connection to it, and whether it's
> > got people on it and whether it's running a map
> > I want to play. You know, all the stuff that the server browser tells you
> > when you search for a server.
> >
> > So, perhaps I join servers from history, perhaps I join from them from
> the
> > main server list. The point
> > is, if one server disappears it doesn't make diddly squat difference to
> > the game. There are plenty of
> > other servers. OTOH, if a new server appears, I'm as likely to play on
> > that as any other.
> >
> > Whereas you are trying to kid us that a server that is getting ddosed or
> > that is on a crap host with lag spikes
> > doesn't matter because your dumb users put up with it? Yet that's the
> > reason you want the feature?
> > Start talking sense.
> >
> > --
> > Dan
> >
> >
> >
> > __**_
> > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
> > please visit:
> > https://list.valvesoftware.**com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/**hlds_linux<
> https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux>
> >
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Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops can ban HWID too.

[Robert Paulson]

Are you just here to troll hlds?

You just showed you can't even read. "The idea that someone only joins a
server from the favourites list?...How did they join the server to
add it to the favourites?" Come back to the mailing list after you've
finished your reading lessons.

You can keep arguing about how "logical" your thinking is but it doesn't
matter because it doesn't line up with reality. I've seen this problem
affect dozens of servers, even those that are totally off quickplay such as
Azelphur's Surf server.



On Sun, Aug 25, 2013 at 1:35 PM, dan  wrote:

> On 25/08/2013 21:12, Robert Paulson wrote:
>
>> Any server owner who has experienced this can tell you that most players
>> never figure out an IP change every time even on the most popular servers
>>
>> There are many "logical" explanations for this. Players might only go off
>> their histories list and do not understand the concept of an IP. Or they
>> might only use the favorites popup when you leave a server. Or they would
>> just assume the server shut down and find the task of searching through
>> thousands of servers too daunting.
>>
>
> I'm sure "most players" are at least as intelligent as you, if not more so.
> I see no evidence to explain why you can find a server and they can't
>
> Feel free to explain your vast intellect, but I'm sure us mere mortals
> will find
> your server if we need to, however much you believe otherwise.
>
> The idea that someone only joins a server from the favourites list?
>
> Now, come on. Think about that Einstein. How did they join the server to
> add it to the favourites? If they did that, they can do it again.
>
>
>  Most players will tolerate small imperfections in older servers. Users are
>> far more likely to tolerate occasional ddos and the increasing lag spikes
>>
>
> Well, then there's no need for you to switch host or change IP then, is
> there?
>
> Don't join a debating society.
>
>
> --
> Dan
>
> __**_
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Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops can ban HWID too.

[Robert Paulson]

Any server owner who has experienced this can tell you that most players
never figure out an IP change every time even on the most popular servers

There are many "logical" explanations for this. Players might only go off
their histories list and do not understand the concept of an IP. Or they
might only use the favorites popup when you leave a server. Or they would
just assume the server shut down and find the task of searching through
thousands of servers too daunting.

Most players will tolerate small imperfections in older servers. Users are
far more likely to tolerate occasional ddos and the increasing lag spikes
as every update adds CPU usage compared to the hassle of seeding a new IP.
This is an empirical fact that I bet operators here can testify to. Our
oldest servers on slow hardware are always the most populated.

Just because you noticed the same servers having the same name since 2007
doesn't mean most of the players didn't have to wait several months for
their favorite servers to get reseeded after an IP change.

There is no way for DNS favorites to"fuck over the player base" that can't
already be done because the favorites list is not monitored by Valve. It is
supposed to be curated by the player and it is very easy to remove a server
from it.

Banning serial cheaters was already solved by DNS or netblock banning.
People making cheats will simply add methods to randomize their HWID and
make it useless.


On Sun, Aug 25, 2013 at 6:21 AM, dan  wrote:

> On 25/08/2013 00:30, Robert Paulson wrote:
>
>> I would rather ask Valve do it the faster way since they have ignored this
>> request every year it comes up.
>>
>
> Because it's not a problem.
>
> If I play on "Fred's TF2 server" regularly by connecting to it via the
> browser,
> Fred can do what he likes to his IP address.
>
> I notice servers by name / description in the server browser that I played
> on in 2007.
>
> I couldn't tell you if the IP address is the same or not because it
> doesn't matter
> what their IP address is.
>
> Your premise seems to be that most of the people who use your server
> are too dumb to use the browser to find a server they play on regularly
> yet they use the browser. That makes no logical sense.
>
> I'm far more likely to stop playing on a server that is DDOS'd or on a
> crappy host
> simply because these are real problems that affect the gameplay.
>
> I'm pretty sure Valve have thought about it and figured admins would find
> some way to fuck
> over the player base if it were implemented.
>
> --
> Dan
>
>
>
>
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Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops can ban HWID too.

[Robert Paulson]

Group IPs would be fine too.

But realistically that is a lot more work for Valve than using domain
names.

- Group IPs needs a new GUI
- Needs to save a lot more data in the cloud.
- Needs to authenticate each server actually belongs to a group.

I would rather ask Valve do it the faster way since they have ignored this
request every year it comes up.

- People don't necessarily want to favorite every server in your group.
- If Steam goes down (which it often does) Group IPs would be down.
Currently favorites do not go down when Steam does and having DNS favorites
would keep this property.
- No need for the master server to authenticate a server actually belongs
to a group.
- Would allow servers without a group to benefit.



On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 4:10 PM, Mart-Jan Reeuwijk wrote:

> That is not what they mean. They mean that the client saves it by DNS name
> like
>
> srv1.community.xxx:27015
> srv1.community.xxx:27020
> srv2.community.xxx:27015
> etc
> instead that that gets resolved to IP, and then saved as a IP:port in the
> server list. They want the clients to save it by URL:port, so moving to a
> new hardware server won't lose their players.
>
> I rather see that comm's can add servers by IP to their Steam group, and
> that those get into a tab in the steam browser for easy finding their
> servers.
>
> Let the client be able to enable or disable this (choose default
> opt-in/opt-out, then per group in or out), so ppl with a huge list of
> groups can opt out default, and include only a few groups, and ppl who have
> few groups can opt in and exclude a few groups.
>
> Server owners can easily update the list of servers, Valve can verify
> quite easily on their backend if its really a server, and it solves all
> problems with "saving" servers in the favorites, for they can go to that
> tab, favorite all they want, and get on.
>
>
>
>
> >
> > From: ElitePowered . 
> >To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list <
> hlds_linux@list.valvesoftware.com>
> >Sent: Sunday, 25 August 2013, 1:01
> >Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops
> can ban HWID too.
> >
> >
> >You can just use subdomains.
> >
> >
> >On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 6:53 PM, Nomaan Ahmad 
> wrote:
> >
> >> I agree with the domain suggestion.
> >>
> >>
> >> On 24 August 2013 23:09, Robert Paulson  wrote:
> >>
> >> > When is the whining about Pinion going to stop? Valve already made it
> so
> >> > players who join through matchmaking cannot have forced ads. Since
> they
> >> > require 100% completion there's almost no chance of getting paid from
> >> > quickplay players.
> >> >
> >> > I'd rather Valve focus on more important issues such as saving
> servers by
> >> > domain name.
> >> >
> >> > How many of you are stuck on old hardware or a host going down the
> toilet
> >> > because changing IPs would kill off your population? How many of you
> need
> >> > DDoS protection but can't because proxying from a new IP would result
> in
> >> > more player loss than a DDoS?
> >> >
> >> > This feature is applicable to every game that uses the browser, and
> would
> >> > be beneficial to both players and server owners. This is what Valve
> >> should
> >> > be working on next.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 1:31 PM, Mart-Jan Reeuwijk <
> mreeu...@yahoo.com
> >> > >wrote:
> >> >
> >> > >
> >> > > That would only work if that would be a form of tracking number
> instead
> >> > of
> >> > > the HWID itself, for HWID's can be influenced, so if the hacker or
> w/e
> >> > > changes it, it should not have a big impact on tracability, multiple
> >> > HWID's
> >> > > would then be linked to a tracking ID, for they can attempt to
> >> customize
> >> > > MAC addresses, reinstallation with different OS's, adjusting driver
> >> > > versions etc, or w/e the combination of things is they use for
> >> > generating a
> >> > > HWID.
> >> > >
> >> > > Tbh, its a lot of work for some Valve themselves doesn't see much
> >> benefit
> >> > > from.
> >> > >
> >> > > Maybe the discussion would have to be focused on the advantages for
> >> Valve
> >> > > to implement it, in 

Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops can ban HWID too.

[Robert Paulson]

When is the whining about Pinion going to stop? Valve already made it so
players who join through matchmaking cannot have forced ads. Since they
require 100% completion there's almost no chance of getting paid from
quickplay players.

I'd rather Valve focus on more important issues such as saving servers by
domain name.

How many of you are stuck on old hardware or a host going down the toilet
because changing IPs would kill off your population? How many of you need
DDoS protection but can't because proxying from a new IP would result in
more player loss than a DDoS?

This feature is applicable to every game that uses the browser, and would
be beneficial to both players and server owners. This is what Valve should
be working on next.


On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 1:31 PM, Mart-Jan Reeuwijk wrote:

>
> That would only work if that would be a form of tracking number instead of
> the HWID itself, for HWID's can be influenced, so if the hacker or w/e
> changes it, it should not have a big impact on tracability, multiple HWID's
> would then be linked to a tracking ID, for they can attempt to customize
> MAC addresses, reinstallation with different OS's, adjusting driver
> versions etc, or w/e the combination of things is they use for generating a
> HWID.
>
> Tbh, its a lot of work for some Valve themselves doesn't see much benefit
> from.
>
> Maybe the discussion would have to be focused on the advantages for Valve
> to implement it, in their user experiences and the monetary ROI. (apart
> from the whining of us about alts being a problem, for I rather see the
> pinion crap end.)
>
>
>
>
> >
> > From: Scruppy Dawg 
> >To: Bjorn Wielens ; Half-Life dedicated Linux server
> mailing list 
> >Sent: Saturday, 24 August 2013, 13:50
> >Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops
> can ban HWID too.
> >
> >
> >As long as Valve stores the HWID for each SteamID then they could make
> that
> >available as a banning mechanism to server ops without exposing it. They
> >would just have to add something to the Steam authentication when you join
> >a server and check that HWID against your banned list.
> >
> >I would ban a SteamID and add the option that I want the HWID associated
> >with it banned.
> >
> >SteamID A with HWID  is banned from my servers.
> >
> >But later if SteamID B joins with HWID  a check is done on auth and
> >they are not allowed to join.
> >
> >I would have to think most of this logging is already in place and it
> would
> >just be a matter of changing the server and auth method.
> >
> >
> >On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 6:59 AM, Bjorn Wielens  wrote:
> >
> >> That wouldn't work. unless Valve implements a global ban system where
> they
> >> track HWIDs and such for bans (which they never will do) , the HWID
> would
> >> HAVE to be shared to be able to ban by it. You can hardly ban someone
> by a
> >> particular attribute of their account (or indeed check to see if they
> are
> >> banned by said attribute) without actually knowing the attribute in the
> >> first place.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> 
> >>  From: Scruppy Dawg 
> >> To: Mart-Jan Reeuwijk ; Half-Life dedicated Linux
> >> server mailing list 
> >> Sent: Saturday, August 24, 2013 3:33:28 AM
> >> Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops
> can
> >> ban HWID too.
> >>
> >>
> >> Like I said, the HWID itself wouldn't be shared. When you ban a SteamID
> >> there would be something you would add to the ban command to issue a
> HWID
> >> ban on that SteamID as well.
> >>
> >>
> >> On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 12:27 AM, Mart-Jan Reeuwijk  >> >wrote:
> >>
> >> > Steamguard generates a random number for the client, which is
> "linked" to
> >> > the machine afaik with the steam client. You cannot get that one, that
> >> > would be bad.
> >> >
> >> > The HWID, is generated at installation of steam I think, and is
> probably
> >> > passed on to Valve at logon every time. Never really looked at it. But
> >> > sharing that has other security issues I guess.
> >> >
> >> > its a strange thing, for things conflict a lot.
> >> > - Valve can't discuss individual accounts specifics (being a alt
> account
> >> > of somebody would prolly be not good for them in legal)
> >> > - sharing such identifying info would benefit the server owners in the
> >> > amount of effort needed to keep their servers clean, but that would be
> >> > defeated by some those hackers would start to do to prevent such.
> >> >
> >> > I do not think valve would want to start that arms race. I rather have
> >> > them up the par on VAC, as far as I hear, there are now various cheats
> >> that
> >> > aren't been vac'd by valve after x time. They do move over to new
> account
> >> > for too many servers they got banned on to be able to join much.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > >
> >> > > From: Eli Witt 
> >> > >To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list

Re: [hlds_linux] Silly TF2 SteamPipe Conversion

[Robert Paulson]

Will fast download refer clients to tf/custom/custom_stuff/maps/* or will
it refer clients to tf/maps/*?


On Tue, Apr 16, 2013 at 3:23 PM, Fletcher Dunn
wrote:

> If there are no filename conflicts with the official game files, then you
> can just drop them directly in the tf/maps, tf/materials folder as before
> and it works.
>
> Or you can put them in something like
>
> tf/custom/custom_stuff/maps
> tf/custom/custom_stuff/materials
> tf/custom/custom_stuff/models
>
> ("custom_stuff" is an arbitrary name, you can use whatever you like.)
>
> And then all your custom stuff is segregated from the official stuff.
>  Makes it a lot easier to keep things organized.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto:
> hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Gordon Reynolds
> Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2013 3:21 PM
> To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list
> Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Silly TF2 SteamPipe Conversion
>
> I guess I was overcomplicating this then. If I don't have any big mods
> like vs. Saxton Hale or anything then there shouldn't be a lot of hassle on
> my end, will there?
>
> I've got maps (some of which come with custom materials and such), and
> that's about it.
>
>
> On Tue, Apr 16, 2013 at 3:10 PM, CG  wrote:
>
> > It goes in the same place you've always had it.  Only on the client
> > end it changes to C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\steamapps\common\Team
> > Fortress 2\tf\download\maps or something like that.
> >
> > This way if you have multiple Steam accounts, you won't have to
> > download the map all over again under another account.
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Apr 16, 2013 at 2:58 PM, Gordon Reynolds <
> > thisisgordonsem...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > I have a lot of custom maps.
> > >
> > > Right now they are in /tf/maps/
> > >
> > > After the SteamPipe switch, where would I "install" new maps, and
> > > any additional content they might have?
> > >
> > > Would it all just reside under /download/?
> > >
> > > tf/download/
> > > tf/download/maps/
> > > tf/download/models/
> > > tf/download/sprites/
> > > etc?
> > >
> > > As the title states, this might be a silly question and the FAQ
> > > clears stuff up, but I just want to make sure I have it right.
> > >
> > > --
> > > - Gordon Reynolds
> > > ___
> > > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list
> > > archives, please visit:
> > > https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
> > >
> > ___
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> > please visit:
> > https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
> >
>
>
>
> --
> - Gordon Reynolds
> ___
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Re: [hlds_linux] Mandatory Team Fortress 2 update released

[Robert Paulson]

I don't want to get into another useless internet argument where people try
to win a point by nitpicking a single sentence out of an entire argument.

What I am saying is that if Valve is allowing pay-to-win servers to stay in
quickplay then it really isn't "vanilla" as possible. What do you have to
say about this quote from the quickplay overview?

"Are there any server side mods that will disqualify me from Quickplay
since some do not change sv_tags? No, we are not automatically
disqualifying servers for server side mods. If the mods results in a better
or worse player experience, that will be reflected in the back-end server
score."

https://support.steampowered.com/kb_article.php?ref=2825-AFGJ-3513

"Vanilla" is a random list of what Valve thinks new players will like and
whatever people complain about on SPUF, it is not by any means "vanilla" as
some people here are defining it.


On Sat, Apr 13, 2013 at 5:06 PM, Doctor McKay  wrote:

> >> -Quickplay is supposed to be as vanilla as possible.
>
> > Again this is flat out wrong.
>
> Actually, servers *are* supposed to be as vanilla as possible. From the
> Quickplay Overview: (
> https://support.steampowered.com/kb_article.php?ref=2825-AFGJ-3513)
>
> > Servers should be running as "vanilla" as possible.
>
>
>
> Doctor McKay
> http://www.doctormckay.com
> mc...@doctormckay.com
>
>
> On Sat, Apr 13, 2013 at 5:08 PM, Robert Paulson  >wrote:
>
> > > believe you missed the part where months ago dan helped clarify what
> > Fletcher obviously meant
> >
> > You are the one that missed the point. I don't know how many times this
> has
> > to be repeated: Those bans were NOT meant to ban servers for increasing
> > their maximum slots through a Valve provided setting. They were likely in
> > response to the rash of servers that started hiding tags.
> >
> > They reversed the bans because anyone that changed sv_visiblemaxplayers
> > after reboot would be banned for using a setting provided by Valve. The
> > reason why Fletcher even mentioned changing max slots was that some
> people
> > here were incorrectly speculating that was why they were banned.
> >
> > > - Quickplay is supposed to be as vanilla as possible.
> >
> > Again this is flat out wrong. I don't know how many times I have to say
> > this, but there are pay-to-win servers on quickplay.
> >
> > From the quickplay FAQ itself: "Are there any server side mods that will
> > disqualify me from Quickplay since some do not change sv_tags? No, we are
> > not automatically disqualifying servers for server side mods. If the mods
> > results in a better or worse player experience, that will be reflected in
> > the back-end server score."
> >
> > Valve realizes that 3rd party servers provide more value to players than
> > their own, otherwise they would have made quickplay only for Valve
> servers.
> >
> > > People choosing to join Quickplay aren't expecting your mods, your
> > advertisements, your anything. They're expecting a vanilla experience
> >
> > When I bought TF2, I expected mods just like I expected them on
> > Counter-Strike, Half-Life, Gmod. Now that there is a quickplay feature, I
> > still don't see where in the game it says that a server can't have any
> mods
> > on it.
> >
> > Quickplay is Valve's attempt to keep new players by providing them what
> > they think they want by the rigorous scientific process of blocking
> > whatever people on SPUF complain about.
> >
> > There is a reason why your own "vanilla" servers died out on an equal
> > playing field. The reason is because your players weren't happier.
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Apr 13, 2013 at 10:21 AM, eueln  wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > On Apr 13, 2013, at 7:00 AM, Essay Tew Phaun 
> wrote:
> > >
> > > > You won't get a straight answer to your first question because it's
> > > > impossible to have one. Instead, he'll wait a few weeks and type up a
> > few
> > > > paragraphs that don't even address that very relevant question. "If
> it
> > > was
> > > > breaking the rules, why were the servers re-listed?"
> > >
> > > I believe you missed the part where months ago dan helped clarify what
> > > Fletcher obviously meant, in that server owners using that particular
> > > plugin were using a "perverse optimal strategy," and that by reading
> > > between the lines, that those admins were perver

Re: [hlds_linux] Mandatory Team Fortress 2 update released

[Robert Paulson]

> believe you missed the part where months ago dan helped clarify what
Fletcher obviously meant

You are the one that missed the point. I don't know how many times this has
to be repeated: Those bans were NOT meant to ban servers for increasing
their maximum slots through a Valve provided setting. They were likely in
response to the rash of servers that started hiding tags.

They reversed the bans because anyone that changed sv_visiblemaxplayers
after reboot would be banned for using a setting provided by Valve. The
reason why Fletcher even mentioned changing max slots was that some people
here were incorrectly speculating that was why they were banned.

> - Quickplay is supposed to be as vanilla as possible.

Again this is flat out wrong. I don't know how many times I have to say
this, but there are pay-to-win servers on quickplay.

>From the quickplay FAQ itself: "Are there any server side mods that will
disqualify me from Quickplay since some do not change sv_tags? No, we are
not automatically disqualifying servers for server side mods. If the mods
results in a better or worse player experience, that will be reflected in
the back-end server score."

Valve realizes that 3rd party servers provide more value to players than
their own, otherwise they would have made quickplay only for Valve servers.

> People choosing to join Quickplay aren't expecting your mods, your
advertisements, your anything. They're expecting a vanilla experience

When I bought TF2, I expected mods just like I expected them on
Counter-Strike, Half-Life, Gmod. Now that there is a quickplay feature, I
still don't see where in the game it says that a server can't have any mods
on it.

Quickplay is Valve's attempt to keep new players by providing them what
they think they want by the rigorous scientific process of blocking
whatever people on SPUF complain about.

There is a reason why your own "vanilla" servers died out on an equal
playing field. The reason is because your players weren't happier.



On Sat, Apr 13, 2013 at 10:21 AM, eueln  wrote:

>
> On Apr 13, 2013, at 7:00 AM, Essay Tew Phaun  wrote:
>
> > You won't get a straight answer to your first question because it's
> > impossible to have one. Instead, he'll wait a few weeks and type up a few
> > paragraphs that don't even address that very relevant question. "If it
> was
> > breaking the rules, why were the servers re-listed?"
>
> I believe you missed the part where months ago dan helped clarify what
> Fletcher obviously meant, in that server owners using that particular
> plugin were using a "perverse optimal strategy," and that by reading
> between the lines, that those admins were perverse in their usage of said
> plugins. The servers were re-listed because what they had previously
> established was that they'd be "straying into a gray area" to remove those
> servers from the list.
>
> Further, the entirety of his well-thought-out message was ignored as him
> just being "ignorant." Here, let me repeat his points in a condensed manner
> (sorry dan if I get some of these wrong) so it hopefully won't be ignored
> again:
>
> - Quickplay is supposed to be as vanilla as possible. People choosing to
> join Quickplay aren't expecting your mods, your advertisements, your
> anything. They're expecting a vanilla experience (hence the limit on tags).
> Stop making Quickplay anything other than that, and stop believing you're
> entitled to Quickplay traffic if you're not providing a vanilla experience.
>
> - Take your Quickplay servers down if you "need" to put advertisements on
> them. There are an abundance of genuinely vanilla servers that will happily
> receive that traffic and lead to happier players. You shouldn't be running
> Quickplay servers if you can't afford them.
>
> - You can do whatever you want with your non-Quickplay servers. Put ads on
> them. Mod them all you want. People will "vote with their feet."
>
>
> > It's sad because I don't even think he's trolling, he's just that
> ignorant.
> > We removed the plugins because I personally don't like the idea that we
> may
> > accidentally have all of our servers de-listed..
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Apr 12, 2013 at 3:24 PM, 1nsane <1nsane...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> How was he correctly de-listed if valve reversed it? It was a bug.
> >>
> >> The problem was that valve changed it so the tag doesn't get set
> >> immediately. Running a plugin like that is fine but you need to monitor
> the
> >> tags to make sure they get set.
> >> No de-listing happened since then and more servers are bringing it back.
> >>
> >> You just can not rely on the built in function anymore to avoid
> de-listing,
> >> you NEED to make sure the tags are set immediately and you will be OK.
> >>
> >> Like valve said, it would be "straying into the grey area" for them to
> >> de-list such servers and they re-listed the ones they got last time due
> to
> >> that bug.
> >>
> >>
> >> On Fri, Apr 12, 2013 at 3:11 PM, dan  wrote:
> >>
> >>> On 04/04/2013 06:41, Es

Re: [hlds_linux] Mandatory Team Fortress 2 update released

[Robert Paulson]

Just because you have a high paying job at Microsoft and have little time
to improve your servers, which is probably why they died, does not mean
that is the only legitimate way to run TF2 servers.
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Re: [hlds_linux] More reliable support for server IP changes

[Robert Paulson]

This has been suggested multiple times on this mailing list for many years.

I doubt this time will be different since Valve is on their yearly company
retreat, and they still have SteamPipe and Linux to deal with.

The last I heard of it was that the server registration token was supposed
to solve the problem, but it doesn't.


On Sat, Apr 6, 2013 at 3:00 PM, Asher Baker  wrote:

> Hence the point about SRV records, which eliminate anyone apart from the
> host having to care what port the server is on.
>
> On Sat, Apr 6, 2013 at 10:46 PM, Ruben Lopes  >wrote:
>
> > > The best (and much easier than re-purposing the server id's) solution
> > here
> > > would be for the server browser to save hostnames instead of IP
> > addresses,
> > > it would also be handy if the client made use of SRV records.
> > > This way it's making use of standards, rather than fighting against
> them.
> >
> > Just remember that the port should be saved somehow, in case it port
> > changes too. Otherwise the job would be left half-done and this would be
> > useless again if one had to change port's.
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Re: [hlds_linux] Mandatory Team Fortress 2 update released

[Robert Paulson]

> It's not as if your server is providing a once-in-a-lifetime experience,
and unless you're running some custom mods

I can't speak for everyone but not everyone running ads just throws up a
server with sourcemod and expects to have their server fees paid for them.

> Because of YOU PEOPLE wanting to play on MY SERVERS I now need to find
some way to pay for them, the nerve of you kids.

People don't keep servers up if they don't get filled. If they weren't
filled people wouldn't care about finding a way to pay for them.

If map makers and modelers are making hundreds of thousands a year from the
Steam store, why is it immoral for server owners to even make 1% of that?
They don't even have upkeep costs and they used to upload their work for
free to gamebanana.com. Now server owners don't even have the ability to
use custom items.


On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 3:31 PM, Gordon Reynolds <
thisisgordonsem...@gmail.com> wrote:

> It does feel like the people who run these ads or nag for donations resent
> their players. "Because of YOU PEOPLE wanting to play on MY SERVERS I now
> need to find some way to pay for them, the nerve of you kids. Because
> you're too stupid to type !ads and click on ads to help me out, I will now
> install a plugin that forces you to look at ads."
>
>
> On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 3:02 PM, Nerdboy  wrote:
>
> > It's more the constant "they're too stupid to"/"spuf is too stupid to"
> > On Apr 4, 2013 2:15 PM, "Cameron Munroe" 
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Yeah that was uncalled for nerdboy. Just because someone has ads
> doesn't
> > > mean they don't care about there players. You should know better.
> > >
> > > Nerdboy  wrote:
> > >
> > > >Wow Frank you really don't think much of your patrons do you?
> > > >On Apr 4, 2013 2:02 PM, "Frank"  wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> I enjoy running TF2 servers, I have a decent job to support them but
> > me
> > > >> putting some ads on them so you only view when you join (this is
> how I
> > > had
> > > >> them setup) then why should that shame on me for trying to at least
> > > recover
> > > >> the costs of running them. I'm not talking about a profit, I'm lucky
> > to
> > > >> break even every month. I can be trusted just fine to run well
> managed
> > > and
> > > >> fast servers for players to play on FREE, them viewing an ad one
> time
> > > when
> > > >> they join for a few seconds isn't going to hurt nobody and is no
> > > different
> > > >> than television companies do with the ads.  If you wish to have tags
> > in
> > > >> place then fine but tags shouldn't disqualify my servers from
> getting
> > > >> traffic be it browser or quickplay as someone else already put it
> most
> > > kids
> > > >> are too stupid to know how the server browser works so you have to
> > > depend
> > > >> on
> > > >> quickplay/match making to get traffic to your servers. You can't
> > expect
> > > to
> > > >> be able to advertise them on SPUF - you get instant banned for even
> > > typing
> > > >> out an IP# or name of servers so a lot of help Valve is in that
> > regard.
> > > >>
> > > >> -Original Message-
> > > >> From: hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com
> > > >> [mailto:hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of
> > Gordon
> > > >> Reynolds
> > > >> Sent: Thursday, April 04, 2013 2:32 PM
> > > >> To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list
> > > >> Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Mandatory Team Fortress 2 update released
> > > >>
> > > >> If people cannot be trusted to run a server for a free game without
> > > >> blasting
> > > >> users with ads then I hardly doubt they will play nice and put the
> > > proper
> > > >> tags in place informing people that they are about to blast you with
> > > ads.
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> ___
> > > >> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list
> archives,
> > > >> please visit:
> > > >> https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
> > > >>
> > > >___
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> > > please visit:
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> > >
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> >
>
>
>
> --
> - Gordon Reynolds
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Re: [hlds_linux] Mandatory Team Fortress 2 update released

[Robert Paulson]

Any type of HTML MOTD (which I am sure you use) will take up more resources
than a blank page... Mr. "everyone should run off of donations or you
shouldn't run servers and no one would ever want to view the rules or force
unruly players to read the rules"


On Wed, Apr 3, 2013 at 11:43 PM, DontWannaName! wrote:

> You shouldn't be using a motd that lags users. That's common sense...
>
> Sent from my iPhone 5
>
> On Apr 3, 2013, at 10:38 PM, Robert Paulson  wrote:
>
> > The whole issue started from the Traffic to Cash plugin which was
> spamming
> > webpages every second which understandably causes lag.
> >
> > That is why I propose Valve use a rate limit instead. A reasonable rate
> > limit would allow for legitimate use of the MOTD without the ability to
> > cause lag. I posted the details earlier in the mailing list. Confirmation
> > pop-ups is not a good solution. Imagine typing !rules or !bp or !radio
> and
> > then having to click another button every time you type.
> >
> > The current solution makes legitimate servers lag players more because
> now
> > you can't change the MOTD to a blank page after it is closed.
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Apr 3, 2013 at 10:17 PM, Erik-jan Riemers 
> wrote:
> >
> >> Sounds like the "auto redirect" feature from back in the days, this one
> >> also got nerfed.
> >> BUT, you can still do that but it ASKS the client if he/she wants to
> >> connect to it.
> >>
> >> So just simply put it back on somehow and ask the player "Do you want to
> >> see this motd the server is offering to you?" That way you can still
> have
> >> a rules and a radio plugin too.
> >>
> >> -Original Message-
> >> From: hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com
> >> [mailto:hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of dan
> >> Sent: donderdag 4 april 2013 6:17
> >> To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list
> >> Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Mandatory Team Fortress 2 update released
> >>
> >> On 04/04/2013 00:17, Essay Tew Phaun wrote:
> >>>  What's the report a server feature for, anyway?
> >>
> >> You can't expect Valve be tough on others because you weren't willing to
> >> accept them being tough with you.
> >>
> >> Perhaps it's much easier to remove the feature and then you can't use it
> >> or abuse it. You don't really expect them to trust anyone's judgement or
> >> take it on face value what the spirit of rules are do you?
> >>
> >> Most of all, you can't abuse it and then claim that it's not abuse
> either
> >> because the game lets you do it or because there isn't a 150 page bill
> of
> >> rights written by lawyers and signed in blood explicitly going over
> every
> >> permitted or prohibited thing that one or more of you might dream up
> next
> >> to try and get a few bucks by annoying your players in the hope they'll
> >> pay for you to stop annoying you.
> >>
> >> --
> >> Dan
> >>
> >> ___
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> >> please visit:
> >> https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
> >>
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Re: [hlds_linux] Mandatory Team Fortress 2 update released

[Robert Paulson]

The whole issue started from the Traffic to Cash plugin which was spamming
webpages every second which understandably causes lag.

That is why I propose Valve use a rate limit instead. A reasonable rate
limit would allow for legitimate use of the MOTD without the ability to
cause lag. I posted the details earlier in the mailing list. Confirmation
pop-ups is not a good solution. Imagine typing !rules or !bp or !radio and
then having to click another button every time you type.

The current solution makes legitimate servers lag players more because now
you can't change the MOTD to a blank page after it is closed.


On Wed, Apr 3, 2013 at 10:17 PM, Erik-jan Riemers  wrote:

> Sounds like the "auto redirect" feature from back in the days, this one
> also got nerfed.
> BUT, you can still do that but it ASKS the client if he/she wants to
> connect to it.
>
> So just simply put it back on somehow and ask the player "Do you want to
> see this motd the server is offering to you?" That way you can still have
> a rules and a radio plugin too.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com
> [mailto:hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of dan
> Sent: donderdag 4 april 2013 6:17
> To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list
> Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Mandatory Team Fortress 2 update released
>
> On 04/04/2013 00:17, Essay Tew Phaun wrote:
> >   What's the report a server feature for, anyway?
>
> You can't expect Valve be tough on others because you weren't willing to
> accept them being tough with you.
>
> Perhaps it's much easier to remove the feature and then you can't use it
> or abuse it. You don't really expect them to trust anyone's judgement or
> take it on face value what the spirit of rules are do you?
>
> Most of all, you can't abuse it and then claim that it's not abuse either
> because the game lets you do it or because there isn't a 150 page bill of
> rights written by lawyers and signed in blood explicitly going over every
> permitted or prohibited thing that one or more of you might dream up next
> to try and get a few bucks by annoying your players in the hope they'll
> pay for you to stop annoying you.
>
> --
> Dan
>
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Re: [hlds_linux] Mandatory Team Fortress 2 update released

[Robert Paulson]

I understand Valve wants to prevent plugins like this
https://forums.alliedmods.net/showthread.php?t=211842 from lagging new
players,
but this implementation has too many downsides. Now we can't even set the
page to about:blank to clear up resources after the MOTD is closed.

Here is a better solution I encourage Valve to implement.

1. Limit opening MOTDs to something like 5 times per 15 minutes.
2. Only place this restriction on NEW players connecting through
matchmaking/quickplay
3. Allow plugins to detect if someone is affected by this limit.

I with a reasonable rate limit players will be able to view rules/help, use
the radio, and backpack viewers without the Traffic to Cash plugin being
able to spam websites every second.


On Wed, Apr 3, 2013 at 4:08 PM, Eric Smith  wrote:

> We've released a mandatory update for Team Fortress 2. The notes for the
> update are below.
>
> -Eric
>
> --
>
> Team Fortress 2
> - Prevent game servers from opening the MOTD panel more than once if the
> player connected through matchmaking or quickplay
> - Added new promo items
> - Fixed a bug where dispensers sapped by a Red-Tape Recorder would
> continue to heal players
> - Fixed buildings destroyed by the Red-Tape Recorder not always displaying
> a death notice
> - Fixed a bug in Mann Vs. Machine related to carrying buildings and using
> the "Upgrade Buildings" canteen
> - Fixed the guitar sound not always playing when taunting with the Neon
> Annihilator
> - Fixed missing cloak effect for the Wanga Prick
> - Fixed the Bat Outta Hell using the Red team arms skin while on the Blue
> team
> - Fixed custom cursors in VR mode
> - Fixed Hydra input in VR mode
> - Improved performance of Linux dedicated server binaries
>
>
>
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Re: [hlds_linux] MvM Matchmaking broken?

[Robert Paulson]

Matchmaking still works. As I've said before on the mailing list, TF2 is
getting less popular.

Any server owner or player worth their salt has noticed that even though
the maximum concurrent players shown here
http://store.steampowered.com/stats/ hasn't changed much from last year,
players are playing shorter amounts, and servers feel emptier.

No one knows how many people are idling now, but game-monitor seems to be
accurate enough to have the same number (+- 1000) of players for CS:S as
Steam reports. If we use the same source, it shows ~ 40% of TF2 players
listed on Steam stats are idling.

http://game-monitor.com/search.php?game=cstrike2
http://game-monitor.com/search.php?game=tf2

Whether this is due to things like Dota 2, Valve policy changes, TF2
getting old, or lack of gameplay updates, no one can say for sure. MvM is a
PvE game, so it is highly dependent on new content being churned out at
regular intervals.


On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 4:12 PM, Frank  wrote:

> Just as the title says, last two days I've seen nearly no players in my mvm
> servers when normally they stay full 24/7.
>
>
>
> Is there something going on?
>
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Re: [hlds_linux] [hlds] Reminder about server tags

[Robert Paulson]

There needs to be a discussion and response from Valve about solving the
root of the problem. What is exactly driving the renewed witch-hunt against
modded servers?

- Has there been a critical mass of people complaining about them? If so,
where do people in support of them petition?  Would it even make a
difference or is this similar to a mandate from Robin Walker (who has long
stopped playing TF2 in favor of Dota2) that everyone should play TF2 the
way he designed it, even if they prefer something else?

- Why was 32 slots officially unlocked by Valve if you are just going to
starve them of new players?

- If 32 slots is truly unpopular as some people here would have you
believe, then they would not go beyond 24 players when even when put in the
same quickplay pool as 24 slot servers. Anyone that changed
sv_visiblemaxplayers above 24 would find they would not get any more people
to join the server. Have any of you thought why so many server owners run
32 slot servers despite increased costs? Do the naysayers really think it
is because server owners who don't play the game at all only like 32 slots
and only real players like 24 slots rather than the obvious fact that they
are popular?

- Is quickplay Valve's successful backhanded way to have a "custom servers"
ghetto without a massive backlash? How many of you remember it?
http://forums.gameservers.com/viewtopic.php?t=28077

- Whatever happened to following this part of the FAQ? As it stands, 32
slot servers are getting delisted while pay-to-win or RTD servers don't?

[quote]
Are there any server side mods that will disqualify me from Quickplay since
some do not change sv_tags?

No, we are not automatically disqualifying servers for server side mods. If
the mods results in a better or worse player experience, that will be
reflected in the back-end server score.
[/quote]

Why not let the popularity of server settings be determined fairly instead
of giving a huge advantage to default servers?

Now that server owners can't change sv_visiblemaxplayers without risking
being delisted, is something like reserved slots or class limits next
because it is ruining the "vanilla" experience so much that they can't even
be bothered to look for another server?

A line has to be drawn somewhere. Every right that a server owner has, can
potentially cause a few complaints out of the millions of players. Right
now it just seems like rights are blacklisted as soon as a few people
complain that their "experience" is being ruined.


On Thu, Feb 21, 2013 at 11:29 AM, Invalid Protocol <
invalidprotocolvers...@gmail.com> wrote:

> The reserved slots must be HIDDEN otherwise random players will try to use
> them. This is how it works since many years for almost all Valve games, but
> now suddenly for TF2 is not ok anymore.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com
> [mailto:hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of dan
> Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 12:00 PM
> To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list
> Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] [hlds] Reminder about server tags
>
> On 19/02/2013 00:10, Invalid Protocol wrote:
> > I assume that most community servers have few hidden slots reserved for
> > administrators or regular players. These slots are usually not used,
> except
> > few hours every evening. This means that a 24 public slots + 4 reserved
> > slots has 24 players most of the time (when is full), and only in rare
> cases
> > it has more players (in very rare cases it may even have 28 players for a
> > short period of time). If you fix the "loophole" then how can we have
> > reserved slots? Are you going to add a penalty or even delist all servers
> > that have reserved slots?
>
> It's easy really.
>
> Figure out the maximum number of people you want to have on your server.
>
> Forget whether they are reserved or not. Just add them all together.
>
> Right, now you have a number. It might be 12, 24, 32 or something else
>
> This is the number your server should report in the server browser.
>
> Note, if the number is more than 24 players, this may affect the quickplay
> traffic you do or don't get.
>
> --
> Dan
>
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Re: [hlds_linux] [hlds] Reminder about server tags

[Robert Paulson]

> You can see the number of players on the stats page. TF2 is always in the
top 3 or 4 games.
It's 2nd right now.

Sure look at the games list during the least active part of the day when
many of those players are idling in the only game with a huge incentive to
idle. Try looking at the list during peak hours. The number of TF2 players
have stagnated and even dropped after 2 huge updates.

> There are or were big long threads on SPUF moaning about how badly TF2 is
optimised and moaning about how sentry guns should be removed or such and
such are overpowered

There's always people complaining about anything. Again, I encourage
Fletcher to look at the evidence that people join fast respawn servers with
hidden tags by the boat-load, and stay there all night. And they don't do
it when tags are listed. This should tell you 2 things: there's a real
demand for faster respawn, and not being on quickplay is a huge
disadvntage. Again, I don't care

> The server software is free so I'm not sure what you bought. Was it some
magic beans in exchange for a cow? :)

I don't know about you but I purchased TF2 with the expectation that
servers would be moddable like previous Source games AND not be relegated
to a ghetto deprived of new players. You really think people run modded
servers without buying the game? There is no formal contract saying that
server owners have any rights, but there is an unspoken one. And it is up
to Valve how much they want to erode this good will so that future games
don't end up like CS:GO.

Anyone that has been looking at TF2 servers now knows that you are out of
touch with what is happening right now. No one is using fake players on a
large scale anymore. Of course you wouldn't know given your 1 hour of TF2
per week.

This will be my final response to you on this matter. Don't take a lack of
response to mean that anyone is convinced by your essay long tirades about
how non-vanilla servers are worthless and that they all cheat. My only
purpose here was to notify Valve to look at the clear evidence.



On Fri, Feb 15, 2013 at 3:11 AM, dan  wrote:

> On 14/02/2013 22:23, Robert Paulson wrote:
>
>> Bring the facts, not your assumptions. Step outside your quickplay bubble
>> once in a while and notice that there's been a huge drop in players on the
>> server browser.
>>
>
> No there hasn't, not really.
>
> You can see the number of players on the stats page. TF2 is always in the
> top 3 or 4 games.
> It's 2nd right now.
>
> 51k peak today. It's not the highest it's ever been, but it's not the
> lowest either.
>
> Player numbers have always risen and fallen in between big updates
> appearing. That's nothing new.
>
> There is probably some seasonal variation, variation based on school
> holidays, and variation caused by other games being released on steam too.
>
> Case in point, it wasn't so long ago, just after Halloween, that Fletcher
> pointed out that some of the Valve servers were empty
> the lux ones they'd added. These servers are generally full now (with the
> exception of over night)
> I hop from one to another for hours and hours at a time.
>
> So I'd say your rumours of TF2's death are greatly exaggerated.
>
>
>  Given the few complaints about it until now, very few people care, and I
>> don't think I'm alone in not having our rights further eroded
>>
>
> What "rights" are these?
>
> I think this thread exists because someone at Valve was reminding people
> about these tags,
> which I imagine precludes your idea that no one is still abusing them (I'm
> not sure why you think anyone needs to be smart or rich
> to do it? It's just a plugin and any buffoon can write a plugin. If people
> have paid significant money for them they must be out of their tree)
>
> Nor that there are no complaints about them. How do you suppose you would
> hear complaints? Why would someone complain
> to you?
>
>
>  to the point where we can't even change the number of slots on our server.
>>
>
> Changing the number of slots occasionally is not a problem I'm sure.
>
> Dynamically changing it to game the quickplay system or fool people
> browsing for 24 slot servers clearly is.
>
> This is my opinion. But I see no reason that won't be the rule though
> because the client lets you restrict servers listed by slot count and
> tells you, if you try to join a server with 32 players, what a load of
> crap it will be (so don't tell me that's my opinion - it's part of the game)
>
> I'll tell you why I think it's in the game. There are or were big long
> threads on SPUF moaning about
> how badly TF2 is optimised and moaning about h

Re: [hlds_linux] [hlds] Reminder about server tags

[Robert Paulson]

As expected, random hand-waving just to support your agenda with nothing
but your own personal opinion.

No one smart or rich enough to cloak bots is stupid enough not to know they
will be banned for it by now. People hiding respawn tags is still going on
because it is available in a single download and difficult for Valve to
check. As I said before, Fletcher has the data to see that your assumptions
are wrong. If you did any more research than just complaining about server
owners every time the topic comes up, you would know the truth.

> Don't over-egg your pudding. The player base is just fine.

I am sure it is fine with half the players on Valve's MvM servers being
sucked away by consecutive MvM updates with little or negative player
growth since October. I'll put as much egg in my pudding as I like, thank
you very much.

http://www.steamgraph.net/index.php?action=graph&jstime=1&appid=440&from=133853400&to=End+Time
http://game-monitor.com/search.php?game=tf2

Bring the facts, not your assumptions. Step outside your quickplay bubble
once in a while and notice that there's been a huge drop in players on the
server browser.

> Of course it is. Any buffoon can see if someone joins a server that says
it has 23/24 players and after they've joined 25, 26, 27 or more people
can join, the policy of the admin is the policy of complete and utter
bullshit.

Given the few complaints about it until now, very few people care, and I
don't think I'm alone in not having our rights further eroded to the point
where we can't even change the number of slots on our server. Many of us
bought into TF2 knowing it would be moddable just to have the custom tab
ghetto, quickplay favoritism, and the loss of attachable models all forced
onto us.

Again it is up to Valve to respond to the facts, and I hope they can look
deeper into the situation than just saying that quickplay only accounts for
20% of connections and thus doesn't matter.

On Thu, Feb 14, 2013 at 7:43 AM, dan  wrote:

> On 14/02/2013 06:20, Robert Paulson wrote:
>
>> Fletcher has the data on servers that used fast respawn without displaying
>> tags (at least one of them here), and he should know that stay populated
>> long into the night.
>>
>
> No they didn't. They added bots and used mods that made it look like they
> were
> real players.
>
> Plenty of admins are next to scumbags and act like it all the time in the
> way they run servers.
>
> I've joined servers recently that mod the game so you can't click
> 'continue' to get past the HTML adverts for 30 seconds.
> Or do other annoying popups if you don't have the html option enabled.
>
> They're wankers.
>
> So yeah, these server owners are mostly money grabbing buffoons who
> really couldn't care about the game experience at all. They just want
> to run a ton of servers and use whatever means they can to grab players (
> whether honest or not) and whatever dumb idea de jour comes along to try
> and make money from those players no matter how ridiculous it makes
> the experience. Indeed, they want it to annoy so they can charge
> money to remove it and make it not annoying.
>
> Of course not all server owners are like this, but enough are that I think
> the only way to play TF2 is to either use Valve's
> servers or to play organised matches in comp. (Not the least because so
> many of the other server
> owners do such dipsy things with their config they break the game. Changes
> which valve don't report via the browser
> so you can't filter them out)
>
> But that's moot. My opinion there doesn't matter. The issue is, and always
> has been with servers
> lying that they aren't changing things when they are, to try and get
> players to join (either via the browser or via quickplay)
>
>
>
>  in light of the ever shrinking TF2 player-base.
>>
>
> Don't over-egg your pudding. The player base is just fine.
>
>
>  And finally I'd like to say that changing your slots is not against the
>> "Policy of Truth". The moment your maximum slots are increased, your
>> server
>> will properly reflect the settings on your tags. Even if this is
>> automatic,
>> this isn't something that can't be done manually.
>>
>
> Of course it is. Any buffoon can see if someone joins a server that says
> it has 23/24 players and after they've joined 25, 26, 27 or more people
> can join, the policy of the admin is the policy of complete and utter
> bullshit.
>
>
> --
> Dan
>
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Re: [hlds_linux] [hlds] Reminder about server tags

[Robert Paulson]

I don't want to waste my time arguing with needaxeo who always asserts his
agenda that a completely default experience is superior and third party
server owners are useless.

Fletcher has the data on servers that used fast respawn without displaying
tags (at least one of them here), and he should know that stay populated
long into the night. That is why anyone bothers to report them. If they
were unpopular, no one would be reporting them. Now I'm not saying we
support people hiding their tags (we would never risk being banned) but it
is obvious what players want

It is up to him whether or not to continue over-promoting a plain
experience by shrinking the browse button to half the size of the Play
Multiplayer button and in light of the ever shrinking TF2 player-base.

And finally I'd like to say that changing your slots is not against the
"Policy of Truth". The moment your maximum slots are increased, your server
will properly reflect the settings on your tags. Even if this is automatic,
this isn't something that can't be done manually.


On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 at 9:04 PM, dan  wrote:

> On 13/02/2013 09:05, ics wrote:
>
>> I don't think anyone dynamically does this
>>
>
> You think stuff and it happens like in this film?
> http://www.imdb.com/title/**tt0078158/
> Wow.
>
>
>  Valve's recommendation is 24, so simple solution would be that if server
>> cvar sv_visiblemaxplayers is changed, Valve will check if it's over 24
>> slots or below and adds increased_maxplayers immediately, thus alerting
>> quickplay system and everyone should be happy, except the people who try to
>> avoid that tag.This also works two ways, if you have 27/24 players,
>> increased_maxplayers is added during mapchange, making the server 27/27 and
>> then the server loses 8 players, you will be left with 19/27 (or possibly
>> 19/24) with increased_maxplayers tag, thus giving quickplay penalty.
>>
>
> How are we happy if we join a server via quickplay or the server browser,
> after reading 24 slots, expecting and wanting a vanilla 24-slot server and
> then the player count goes up mid round?
>
> Messing with the slot count mid-game has to be a no-no as far as quickplay
> and the server browser goes.
> Your server has to be either 32 slot or 24 (or something else). You can't
> say "it's 24 slots until we get 24 people and then we change it to 32" in
> any reasonable, honest way.
>
> It's clear the only reason someone says "it's 24 slots...oh no, it's
> actually 32" is to trick either quickplay or TF2 players into joining the
> server.
>
> It would need a tag if there were any valid reason(s) for it other than
> gaming the quickplay system (but I doubt there are)
> --
> Dan
>
>
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Re: [hlds_linux] Servers still getting stuck, freezing, 100% CPU.

[Robert Paulson]

I think most of the developers have moved on to Dota 2.

The rate of updates there is much faster, the game has 3x the players, and
Robin Walker himself has played 2x the amount of Dota 2 than TF2 ever.


On Sat, Nov 17, 2012 at 11:53 AM, Bjorn Wielens  wrote:

> New in the Mann Co Store: Bugfixes! LOL
>
> Anyway, that's something that's been said a lot and many times - we need
> an update that does a major optimization of everything - I mean everything.
> performance, netcode, etc.
>
> Unless things are _VERY_ well thought out from the start, it's difficult
> to keep adding new features and content to a piece of software without
> running into hacks and performance problems that were not initially
> anticipated, and now we're really starting to see it in TF2.
>
>
> Speaking of performance, has anyone had success with 32 man servers
> recently? They used to be one of our most popular servers until they became
> CPU-eating beasts that would bring the box to its knees.
>
> Thanks.
>
>
>
> 
>  From: Sampson Rogers 
> To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list <
> hlds_linux@list.valvesoftware.com>
> Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2012 3:04:53 PM
> Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Servers still getting stuck, freezing, 100% CPU.
>
> Map bugs are indeed a big deal but at least they can be worked around in a
> few different ways. Internal issues, crashing issues, we really can't work
> around. I just wished they would stop adding extra stuff to this game until
> it's in a relatively free crash state. I know it won't happen, because they
> have things to sell on the Mann Co Store, but I sure wish it would. I know
> we weren't forced in to running servers but it's just sad the number of
> things we have to go through to provide a free gaming service to our
> community and passer-bys.
>
> On Sat, Nov 17, 2012 at 2:01 PM, ics  wrote:
>
> > It's odd how some simple things take a lot of time to fix. They
> prioritize
> > but looks to me like some random selection. I'm not saying the issues
> > brought up here are easy to fix but some are. It's like few changes and
> > then it's done but so difficult for them to do from the looks of it.
> >
> > Good example are the map flaws such as staircases not being smooth to
> walk
> > on, map bugs, invalid textures and such. I know they require map to be
> > recompiled and redistributed but applying a fix for a simple thing like
> > preventing teleport built to certain area is so easy to do in hammer, in
> > many ways. It's the minor things they miss, but some of those are
> important
> > to us to get done - and usually as fast as possible. I know several other
> > issues with maps that keep getting people stuck (not alone from
> teleports)
> > and similiar but i know those won't get fixed as they have enough things
> to
> > do anyway.
> >
> > I reported one flaw in one of the maps 1,5 months ago. I got reply it
> will
> > be forwarded to TF2 team. Then i asked around, reported it again to a
> > different person and  i got reply someone will look into it. 2 weeks
> since
> > i reported it for second time has passed and still not fixed. People keep
> > building teleports to that spot to trap people inside the fence
> > occasionally on our servers. Obviously it is marked low priority in the
> > queue. A fix that i could do in a minute (+ map compile time). I don't
> want
> > to go there since everyone would have to redownload the map with
> different
> > name and then no quickplay and tons of problems. Maybe next week, maybe.
> >
> > -ics
> >
> > 17.11.2012 19:26, scipi...@aol.com kirjoitti:
> >
> >  Thats because we're all on 'valve time' my friend. It took them years to
> >> fix alot of issues in l4d2 lol
> >>
> >> Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID
> >>
> >> Sampson Rogers  wrote:
> >>
> >>  The problem just needs to be addressed, point blank. It is utterly
> >>> ridiculous that some of these problems have persisted for so long.
> >>>
> >>> Some of them requiring specific plugins/extensions to fix, such as
> this:
> >>>
> >>> https://forums.alliedmods.net/**showthread.php?p=1770836<
> https://forums.alliedmods.net/showthread.php?p=1770836>
> >>>
> >>> I know I didn't provide details, but that's because I don't have any.
> It
> >>> happens at random and nothing is ever logged. The server doesn't crash,
> >>> it
> >>> just "freezes".
> >>>
> >>> On Sat, Nov 17, 2012 at 12:17 PM, ics  wrote:
> >>>
> >>>  Only gain is the free of memory. I have 2 machine from which 2 servers
>  restart daily to free memory. The other, i never restart the
>  gameservers on
>  it unless i have to. I haven't seen any performance changes to the way
>  or
>  the other between the restarted servers and non restarted ones.
> 
>  Restarting is also bad if you have players around the clock, like i
> did
>  have on halloween event. Drives them away.
> 
>  -ics
> 
>  17.11.2012 19:03, scipi...@aol.com kirjoitti:
> 
> 

Re: [hlds_linux] TF beta has been updated

[Robert Paulson]

How much time do we have between the unstripped beta and the stable release?

On Thu, Oct 25, 2012 at 8:34 PM, Ross Bemrose  wrote:
> Like previously predicted, this server binary update will accompany the TF2
> Halloween update tomorrow.
>
> Hopefully this doesn't cause other issues.
>
>
> On 10/25/2012 11:26 PM, doc wrote:
>>
>> 12 hours from the time Fletch sent the message would put it at 5am.
>> "Morning" in the northwest is a vague time somewhere around 11am-1pm. So
>> about 15 hours from my message.
>>
>> On Thu, Oct 25, 2012 at 5:58 PM, Emil Larsson  wrote:
>>
>>> Looking at the timezone Valve is within, I assume that would be over at
>>> least 12 hours from now, right?
>>>
>>> On Fri, Oct 26, 2012 at 2:54 AM, Fletcher Dunn
>>> wrote:
>>>
 We are expecting to release the update Friday morning.

 Cheers,
 Fletch

 -Original Message-
 From: hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto:
 hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Essay Tew Phaun
 Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2012 4:34 PM
 To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list
 Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] TF beta has been updated

 Not to be a derp, but by soon I assume you mean soon tonight?
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Re: [hlds_linux] Next OrangeBox update may break linux plugins

[Robert Paulson]

Does this mean all Valve Server Plugins will need to be recompiled
since they all require tier0/memdbgon.h?

On Tue, Oct 23, 2012 at 6:26 PM, Fletcher Dunn
 wrote:
> [Corrected subject line]
> Yes, it will affect all orange box games.
>
> Regarding symbols: We'll publish the same level of symbol info that we've 
> published previously.  We shipped a change to strip them in the current TF 
> beta; we'll revert that.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com 
> [mailto:hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Kyle Sanderson
> Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2012 5:58 PM
> To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list
> Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Next TF update may break linux plugins
>
> Is this just Team Fortress 2 or OrangeBox + CS:S?
>
> Thanks,
> Kyle.
>
> On Tue, Oct 23, 2012 at 5:27 PM, Fletcher Dunn
> wrote:
>
>> A word of warning concerning the next TF update.  Many of the Linux
>> binaries for the dedicated server will be renamed.
>>
>> For example:
>>
>> bin/datacache_srv.so
>> bin/dedicated_srv.so
>> bin/engine_srv.so
>> bin/libtier0_srv.so
>> bin/libvstdlib_srv.so
>> bin/materialsystem_srv.so
>> bin/replay_srv.so
>> bin/scenefilecache_srv.so
>> bin/shaderapiempty_srv.so
>> bin/soundemittersystem_srv.so
>> bin/studiorender_srv.so
>> bin/vphysics_srv.so
>> tf/bin/server_srv.so
>>
>> If you have any scripts or plugins that depend on particular
>> filenames, this could break them.
>>
>> Also, the update will contain a large number of changes to low level
>> libraries such as tier0_srv.so.
>>
>> The most recent TF beta was shipped with the renamed binaries and with
>> these changes and can be used to test any scripts or plugins.
>>
>> We highly recommend that plugin developers test their plugins against
>> the current TF beta.
>>
>> Thank you,
>> Fletch
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Re: [hlds_linux] Method To Increase Server Traffic

[Robert Paulson]

This whole thing looks like a poorly thought out lottery where the
primary purpose is making money off server owners. How are you going
to use the quake protocol to identify players when Steam allows
multiple people to have the same name?

To me it looks like: here's my totally unproven plan to leech money
off of clueless server owners. They buy 1 fps servers, so maybe
they'll be dumb enough to help my lottery reach critical mass.

I don't think I'm the only one who doesn't want to see discussions
about this spammed here until it is shown that it actually gives more
value than the money being put in.

On Wed, Oct 17, 2012 at 8:17 AM, Cameron Munroe
 wrote:
> Is the guy below just a spammer, or has he been here before
> --->Discussing<--- stuff? If not can we get a admin to kick this guy off.
>
>
> On 10/17/2012 1:27 AM, Marcin Lis wrote:
>>
>> Fuck you!
>>
>> Wysłane z iPhone'a
>>
>> Dnia 17 paź 2012 o godz. 08:17 Cameron Munroe 
>> napisał(a):
>>
>>> Well, I'm glad we could smash heads a little bit, I will come back
>>> criticizing once some changes have been made and maybe just maybe you will
>>> get some A++ ratings.
>>>
>>>
>>> Forum post so you reference, post, point to, state is a lie, or
>>> completely ignore.
>>> https://www.town-assembly.com/index.php?p=/discussion/42/capture-the-prize-a-scam
>>>
>>> On 10/16/2012 11:11 PM, PAL-18 wrote:

 You wouldn't take them so they came here, to my servers.

Its not that i dont take them on my servers but those who dont listen
 to
everyone's pleas of mercy get vote banned (1 hour temporary) by all
 the
other players.


 Pinion was able to pull off the fact that they could award the server
 owners when one of there players also one, is it possible for you? The 
 items
 are great, but still the fact is now about getting a bunch of cats and
 hearding them to the sign in or it will never get off the floor, and yes
 they are cats.

This system is actually already in place on my site.  It was for
 players
only, but now that server hosts dont have to pay, i can open it for
 server
hosts too.  The way it works is this: refer the most active players
 (4
points to be considered active) each month and win the prize. The
 count
resets each month to keep it fair for everyone. Every user who signs
 up gets
a unique registration url and this url when clicked creates a cookie
 that
lasts for 1 month so even if the player doesnt sign up right away,
 the
registration will still be credited to you.

Also, nice comparison about the cats.  :3 (these guys are pro's!
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pk7yqlTMvp8)
>>>
>>>
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Re: [hlds_linux] Quickplay not activating?

[Robert Paulson]

I don't think school can explain it all.

Our most popular server is emptier than last school year. And our less
popular servers are filling up more than usual.

On Sun, Oct 14, 2012 at 12:21 AM, Erik-jan Riemers  wrote:
> Dont forget that when it goes towards the end of the year, player count
> drops. Don't ask me why, but if you have hlxce or something with a couple
> of years, it usually becomes less at the end of the year. For instance
> summer ended and I noticed a decrease of about 30% pretty normal since all
> the kids go back to school.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com
> [mailto:hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Robert
> Paulson
> Sent: zondag 14 oktober 2012 9:18
> To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list
> Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Quickplay not activating?
>
> This is just a guess. I think Valve made quickplay changes to value ping
> more than the number of players on a server.
>
> This means that popular servers that used to be filled all day began to
> empty out sooner as the people that logged in later became further from
> with the server's time zone.
>
> So at 8 pm, there are more people logging in farther away from your server
> and Valve's quickplay chose to send them to an empty server with lower
> ping rather than to your server which still had people playing in it.
>
> On Sat, Oct 13, 2012 at 11:18 PM, Daniel .  wrote:
>> I've noticed a heavy drop in quickplay traffic even before the new MvM
>> content update.
>> My servers fill up very late and empty out early always around the
>> same time.
>> It's like at 20:00 (08 pm) the servers get kicked out of the quickplay
>> pool and they just empty out, they still show as registered though.
>>
>> 2012/10/14 1nsane <1nsane...@gmail.com>
>>
>>> Also don't forget that Valve's recent update added more MVM content.
>>> This made some players go play on valve's Mann Up or community MVM
> servers.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, Oct 13, 2012 at 10:07 PM, Essay Tew Phaun 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> > Yeah I've noticed it has been slower lately but I figured it may
>>> > just be slower and not a problem with Quickplay. I thought about
>>> > making a post
>>> here
>>> > on it but I know that Quickplay discussions offend certain people
> here.
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Re: [hlds_linux] Quickplay not activating?

[Robert Paulson]

This is just a guess. I think Valve made quickplay changes to value
ping more than the number of players on a server.

This means that popular servers that used to be filled all day began
to empty out sooner as the people that logged in later became further
from with the server's time zone.

So at 8 pm, there are more people logging in farther away from your
server and Valve's quickplay chose to send them to an empty server
with lower ping rather than to your server which still had people
playing in it.

On Sat, Oct 13, 2012 at 11:18 PM, Daniel .  wrote:
> I've noticed a heavy drop in quickplay traffic even before the new MvM
> content update.
> My servers fill up very late and empty out early always around the same
> time.
> It's like at 20:00 (08 pm) the servers get kicked out of the quickplay pool
> and they just empty out, they still show as registered though.
>
> 2012/10/14 1nsane <1nsane...@gmail.com>
>
>> Also don't forget that Valve's recent update added more MVM content. This
>> made some players go play on valve's Mann Up or community MVM servers.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Oct 13, 2012 at 10:07 PM, Essay Tew Phaun 
>> wrote:
>>
>> > Yeah I've noticed it has been slower lately but I figured it may just be
>> > slower and not a problem with Quickplay. I thought about making a post
>> here
>> > on it but I know that Quickplay discussions offend certain people here.
>> > ___
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>> > please visit:
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>> >
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Re: [hlds_linux] Https for fastdl

[Robert Paulson]

All you need is www.fiddler2.com and anyone can get your fast download
url, even with https.

On Sun, Oct 7, 2012 at 2:46 PM, Cameron Munroe
 wrote:
> Well in my case it would be more along the lines of anonymizing the traffic
> as the URL would be hidden, the only thing that would be there is the ip
> address of where the web server is, therfore keep preying eyes out. I know
> that they could probably just see the stream of data coming from the 27005
> port, but its an idea to greater harden gaming server, IMO.
>
> Thanks btw for the "answers."
>
>
> On 10/7/2012 2:40 PM, Rudy Bleeker wrote:
>>
>> Right, so it's possible.Thanks for testing this Mr. Invalid Protocol.
>>
>> I have to side with Cameron on this one, so many replies arguing the
>> benefits and drawbacks of HTTPS which didn't answer his question,
>> where a simple "yes it works" or "no it's not supported" would have
>> sufficed. If someone wants to use something for whatever reason,
>> that's up to them. Please be nice and try to answer the question asked
>> or don't reply at all if you don't know. We're here to help eachother
>> after all.
>>
>> Also, people who talk about the overhead or 'cost' of HTTPS over HTTP
>> don't know what they're talking about, since the overhead of SSL is so
>> minimal that modern day (less than 5 years old) hardware should barely
>> notice it. It does however offer an additional layer of security for
>> the user, for example to prevent tampering with the downloaded files
>> by a man-in-the-middle which could possibly crash the game client (as
>> Invalid Protocol points out the result would be), which is technically
>> a DoS type attack.
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Oct 6, 2012 at 12:51 AM, Invalid Protocol
>>  wrote:
>>>
>>> You can monitor whatever you want, there's no difference between HTTP and
>>> HTTPS.
>>>
>>> It is silly to use HTTPS for downloading maps/sounds and other custom
>>> resources required for a game. You don't need any extra "privacy" and
>>> does
>>> not "protect our users". There's no advantage. You should protect your
>>> fast
>>> download against bandwidth stealing, but that's a different story and has
>>> nothing to do with HTTP or HTTPS.
>>>
>>> You don't "have to buy a 50+ license" to test this. Start a game server,
>>> load a custom map and set sv_downloadurl to
>>> "https://msp.f-secure.com/web-test/common/test.html?"; url (don't forget
>>> the
>>> last ? character, otherwise you'll get a 404 error). Then connect to
>>> server
>>> using a client that does not have the map and see if it tries to download
>>> it. Have the console enabled to see the "downloading" messages (maybe
>>> developer variable must be 1). Also check the my_custom_map.bsp
>>> downloaded
>>> file, should be a HTTP page.
>>>
>>> Anyway, it seems that it works. At least in CS:GO, but then the client
>>> crashes because the downloaded map is invalid (is a HTML page).
>>>
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com
>>> [mailto:hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Cameron
>>> Munroe
>>> Sent: Saturday, October 06, 2012 11:53 PM
>>> To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list
>>> Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Https for fastdl
>>>
>>> The idea about HTTPS is that there is a growing push to monitor and harm
>>> traffic on the internet. A fix for this is https, and as stated before:
>>>
>>>  an extreme explanation might be: it could help against tampering ...
>>>
>>>  if you have an ISP that do not wants you to play they could just
>>>
>>>  corrupt
>>>
>  each and every fast download tries... with https istead that could
> be
>  very hard (in both detecting the typo of file being downloaded and
>  breaking into an ssl stream corrupting it)
>
>  Nowadays, expecially in countries where "privacy" is just a word
> on a
>  dictionary, everything should be run within encrypted tunnels
>>>
>>> This is something that modern day china, and other countries are pushing
>>> towards. Im not trying to be illegal, but rather make it so that its
>>> harder to track users downloading files off my fastdl.
>>>
>>> We should all be pushing to increase https usage in this modern day
>>> world to not only protect our users, but also to hide the traffics full
>>> intent to outside eyes.
>>>
>>> The main reason for my blow up below is the fact that I'm so tired of
>>> responses that simply do not help the thread progress. Its common on
>>> here, and it is bloody annoying. In any case I understand your point
>>> about the extra cost and lowering of speed by switching to https, but I
>>> simply want to know if it would be possible at all to do.
>>>
>>> On 10/5/2012 2:45 PM, Bruno Garcia wrote:

 I'm not trying to criticize your thread or your means to use the Fast
 download functionality.
 I'm simple stating that you would get a better result for less cost.

 I'm sorry if it was mis intended in that way.

 On 

Re: [hlds_linux] Client crash cause of server settings?

[Robert Paulson]

I don't know about you, but I don't blame websites for crashing my
browser. It isn't just flash either, javascript can cause the in-game
browser to crash too. Browsers should not crash on unexpected input.

On Thu, Sep 6, 2012 at 1:49 PM, Frank  wrote:
> Well as a matter of fact it appears it could be that -  I think we are
> blowing smoke up Valve's skirt here and its Pinion's problem all along -
> I'll send in a ticket I suggest you do the same.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com
> [mailto:hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Michael
> Johansen
> Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2012 4:37 PM
> To: hlds_linux@list.valvesoftware.com
> Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Client crash cause of server settings?
>
>
> I believe Pinion edits the motd.txt file and adds the hiturl there, go check
> it out, atelast it's like that on my install.
>
>> From: ad...@gamerscrib.net
>> To: hlds_linux@list.valvesoftware.com
>> Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2012 16:34:37 -0400
>> Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Client crash cause of server settings?
>>
>> That's part of the game - I Just disabled SM which completely removed
>> pinion and SM from the equation. I didn't touch any part of the real
>> game - so whatever the problem is, is within the real game nothing to do
> with a mod.
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com
>> [mailto:hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of
>> Michael Johansen
>> Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2012 4:31 PM
>> To: hlds_linux@list.valvesoftware.com
>> Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Client crash cause of server settings?
>>
>>
>> Assuming you did remove the motd.txt files aswell then?
>>
>>
>> ___
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> please visit:
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>
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Re: [hlds_linux] [hlds] Player count TF2

[Robert Paulson]

I noticed this before the announcement too.

This is a negative change for the players. What happens is that people
all join at the same time, and the average players leave at about the
same time once they have played about 30-40 minutes. This causes a
disconnect bomb.

When the longer players realize that a bunch of people left at the
same time, they will not wait for new players to trickle in through
the browser for very long. The server then repeatedly goes from full
to empty multiple times a day.

Please revert the quickplay changes.

On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 12:12 AM, Russell Smith
 wrote:
> I noticed this started happening on my quickplay server a week or more
> before Fletcher announced the quick play changes on this list.
>
>
> On 7/25/2012 11:16 PM, Cameron Munroe wrote:
>>
>> The servers fill in droves and not a nice constant trickle so the server
>> goes form 0 players to maxed out in 10 minutes and then gets no players
>> after that.
>>
>> Not sure if that has been talked about but just putting it out there.
>
>
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Re: [hlds_linux] Suddenly very low server population

[Robert Paulson]

> You know this because every post on spuf has the hours people play next to
> it?

You didn't know people put their profiles on SPUF? Shows how much you know.

> Do you think the country would be better if someone decided that meant they
> should accommodate every whinge and that would make a better country? If
> not, why do you think that approach would make a better game or a better
> server?

This is the reason why CS and CSS both have more players than TF2 if
you don't include the idlers which you can estimate by peak players.
And Valve did accommodate people who wanted to play on modded servers
before.

Just because you are happy playing default TF2 doesn't mean everyone
else is. I prefer more variety of maps and gameplay instead of
deathmatch with a single control point (koth), control points, moving
control point (payload), capture the flag, reskinned weapons, and
waiting 20 seconds to respawn. I have seen a lot of regulars on my
friends list stop TF2 and playing COD, Tribes, Dota 2, and SMNC
instead because Valve depopulated modded servers.

> But I don't see any reason at all for anyone to run lots of servers and
> then, once in debt, to worry about how they are going to pay for them.

Not sure why you think I am saying there needs to be a business model
for the server hosters. I'm saying why Valve won't do anything about
it. It isn't immoral for server to at least break even. And you get
discounts for running more servers.

You have been trolling this mailing list hard.

On Fri, Apr 27, 2012 at 8:20 AM, dan  wrote:
> On 26/04/2012 22:00, Robert Paulson wrote:
>>
>> I warned about this trend back in December and no one listened. Now
>> that the Christmas and Policy of Truth honeymoon is over, you are all
>> coming out of the woodwork.
>
>
> What trend? That people are happily playing TF2?
>
> As I said, the complaint seems to be "my server is empty ergo people must be
> too dumb to know my server is better or how to join it, or valve must be
> stealing all the people onto their dumbed down servers or quickplay must be
> broken"
>
> The truth seems far removed from that, even if a bug does exist in
> quickplay.
>
> And this "coming out the woodwork" is about 3 or 4 people making lots of
> posts. Some of which don't necessarily agree with the conspiratorial theory.
>
>
>> Though I guess it only makes sense to
>> complain out of desperation now that Lotus and others are dropping
>> heavily in popularity.
>
>
> I'm not surprised they dropped. Their servers don't even seem to have any of
> the redeeming features that some of you think matter.
>
> As I said before, people deciding to make a quick buck from running servers
> put themselves into a position where they decided they had to cheat to try
> and get players and / or via some silly plugins try and scam a few people
> into parting with cash. If they couldn't get players except via cheating the
> system, it stands to reason their servers will be less popular when the
> cheating stops.
>
> When you add livenudes to your tag, even if it's in jest, you're answering
> your own question about popularity.
>
> But who are they? Why should their servers be full? Is the modern trend of
> entitlement raising its head?
>
> "I'm running servers ergo valve should send me people"
>
> As I said in another post, I think having a full server is a happy bonus,
> it's not something I expect to have. Since a shaved monkey could run a
> server, anyone could rent and run 500 TF2 servers tomorrow - call themselves
> something "UberGameProTF2clanEU.de" would follow canonical guidelines. Knock
> up a webpage and forum so they can be derisory to their players, and then
> they should expect Valve to direct traffic to their servers so the money
> starts rolling in? Right? Err...why?
>
> Those 500 servers weren't there the day before and, if they go, there are
> plenty of shaved chimps waiting in the wings for this
> 'insta-business-just-run-servers'
>
> One problem perhaps they will find though is, there's no 'things are ok now
> we're playing by the rules' button. So if their servers were blacklisted by
> someone prior to them removing the junk plugins, then they probably still
> will be.
>
> Why would anyone remove them? There are plenty of full servers to play on. I
> used to play on lotusclan's UK 2fort server over night and any time when it
> didn't have 32 players on it. I used their server mostly because they had
> respawn timers enabled and you could actually play the game. For a while it
> was great. They ruined their own servers by adding bots and by not realising
&

Re: [hlds_linux] Suddenly very low server population

[Robert Paulson]

I warned about this trend back in December and no one listened. Now
that the Christmas and Policy of Truth honeymoon is over, you are all
coming out of the woodwork. Though I guess it only makes sense to
complain out of desperation now that Lotus and others are dropping
heavily in popularity.

The fact is, Valve will not do anything about it.

1. People that barely played the game complained endlessly on the SPUF
forums about faster respawn and 33 slot servers. And now that
quickplay has screwed those servers over, no one seems to be
complaining there, even though plenty of people complain to us about
having to wait 20 seconds to respawn.

2. There has not been a significant drop in players.
http://steamgraph.net/index.php?action=graph&appid=q440&from=0

3. Since there has not been a significant drop in players, it does not
make sense for Valve from a quantitative point of view to change
anything.

4. The F2P business model is fundamentally at odds with 3rd party
servers. Money that is donated to a server is lost to the Mann Co
store. Valve has to pay for servers too, but they get a huge bulk
discount.

On Thu, Apr 26, 2012 at 10:20 AM, 1nsane <1nsane...@gmail.com> wrote:
> That's what I was trying to say. Prior to quickplay everyone used the
> server browser as it was the first and only option.
> It has all the game types and maps, custom or stock. Which lead to a
> greater variety of servers. Then when quickplay came around with free to
> play suddenly the top servers started loosing rank. Just look at Sourceop
> servers now. Huge community and had multiple servers in the top 10 before
> matchmaking. Now has 1 server in top 10. Heck Sourceop had a server ranked
> 0 in Valve's own ranking system. Which meant it was the most popular TF2
> server at the time. Sourceop servers are not quickplay eligible due to 33
> player maxslots.
>
> Anyway it doesn't matter. I have logs from my own servers and from those I
> manage for other communities. I know for a fact that places where Valve
> servers ping 300 make for VERY EASY server popularity. This is why I manage
> 34 quickplay servers in such areas that I never need worry about filling
>  because quickplay always fills them. Yet SOMEHOW Arena or custom map
> servers in those areas do not fill by themselves. I wonder why. But it
> CLEARLY has nothing to do with the fact that most players use quickplay.
>
> Take a popular quickplay enabled server and disable quickplay on it for a
> day. See what happens. Except no one will do that because the outcome is
> easy to guess.
>
> I'm done discussing this with you. This thread is about quickplay as it is
> now. So there's no point debating server browsers or different game modes.
> Let's just stay on topic.
>
> On Thu, Apr 26, 2012 at 12:59 PM, dan  wrote:
>
>> On 26/04/2012 17:32, 1nsane wrote:
>>
>>> Of course it doesn't. Halloween is mostly a US thing. But it was put first
>>> for everyone.
>>>
>>
>> Lots of people played it to get the gifts and achievements.
>> Lots of people played on the halloween map before quickplay existed.
>> Lots of people played on achievement_xx maps the moment an update appeared.
>>
>> Nothing you know about TF2 is secret. Valve have a blog, there are
>> communities and forums and wikis and so on.
>>
>> It's almost as if Valve want people to play this game and so they
>> advertise and tell them stuff about it.
>>
>> The problem your argument is always going to have is firstly that you can
>> use the server browser and you haven't yet come up with a sound argument as
>> to why you can do it if you think everyone else can't.
>> What do you think makes you special? 1000 hours in the game? Did it really
>> take you hundreds of hours? Really?
>>
>> Secondly, quickplay is a lot newer than the game. The game had millions,
>> count them, millions of people playing it when there was no 'start playing'
>> button. Explain how they joined a server.
>>
>> I think your idea that you're "in the know" and everyone else is dumb and
>> just clicks the first button they see has little evidence to support it.
>>
>>
>>  Whatever gets put first on quick play becomes successful. If barely anyone
>>> used quickplay this would not be the case.
>>>
>>
>> Just looking at servers with ping <= 50,  I can see plenty of full servers
>> playing all the different game types that aren't first in the quickplay
>> list, and plenty of servers that are full that are neither registered,
>> valve's, or playing a quickplay map.
>>
>> The idea that payload is popular purely because it's first is complete
>> nonsense.
>>
>> Besides, there's no shortage of players on CTF and Koth maps and the other
>> game types.
>>
>> Plenty of people "playing" on achievement_idle, and trade_ and cp_orange
>> maps
>> None of these are on quickplay.
>>
>> In short, your summary of TF2 is complete and utter bullshit.
>>
>> If there is some issue or bug with quickplay, we'll see, but we've seen no
>> evidence at all for this "big bad valve are stealing

Re: [hlds_linux] Suddenly very low server population

[Robert Paulson]

How is scoring done? Maybe Valve has really good servers?

On Wed, Apr 25, 2012 at 12:37 PM, Cameron Munroe
 wrote:
> Thankfully I do have a community, but the fact still stands that the below
> results are a far from equal standing against valve. As well as the fact
> that I am in the guidelines for quickplay and they still pass over my
> ctf_2fort servers. Guess valve wants to kill the tf2 community.
>
>
>
>
>
> On 2012-04-25 12:31, Tom Grant wrote:
>>
>> Cameron,
>> I know your pain. When the quickplay system was first introduced my server
>> was full 24/7 for a solid month. Gametracker ranked my server in the top
>> 150, felt good man. But, just like you, one day, all traffic
>> dropped. Nothing changed on my end, so I was at a loss as to why, just as
>> you are now.
>>
>> I have not had the time to rebuild a community lately, but I would agree
>> with others on here: Do what you must to get regulars to help populate it.
>> Steam groups, events, gifts (if you're that nice), those sorts of things.
>> Even if you can't get enough to fill it, as long as you have (I believe)
>> six players, you have a much better chance of getting quickplay traffic.
>>
>> The main point I wanted to make is that a server loosing out to Valve
>> servers is not new. This sort of thing has been happening since it was
>> introduced.
>>
>> On Wed, Apr 25, 2012 at 3:16 PM, Cameron Munroe
>> wrote:
>>
>>> So pretty much valve is sending traffic to valve instead of the server
>>> community, great! This might explain why my server went from 24/7 full to
>>> nearly empty.
>>>
>>>
>>> Any Idea on how to improve the score so that our servers can get on the
>>> list more often?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 2012-04-25 08:56, hlds wrote:
>>>
 I did a simple test using an account with more than 1500 hours in TF2
 and
 the result was:

 1. Quickplay connecting to 146.66.153.20:27023 (Valve)
 2. Quickplay connecting to 146.66.153.12:27023 (Valve)
 3. Quickplay connecting to 146.66.153.17:27015 (Valve)
 4. Quickplay connecting to 178.63.83.91:27017 (Community, Nighteam)
 5. Quickplay connecting to 146.66.153.16:27027 (Valve)
 6. Quickplay connecting to 146.66.153.20:27027 (Valve)
 7. Quickplay connecting to 146.66.153.16:27026 (Valve)

 Then I did again the test using my main account (more than 2500 hours in
 TF2) and the result was similar:

 1. Quickplay connecting to 146.66.153.18:27018 (Valve)
 2. Quickplay connecting to 146.66.153.12:27016 (Valve)
 3. Quickplay connecting to 176.31.125.175:27019 (Community, No Bullshit
 TF2)
 4. Quickplay connecting to 146.66.153.16:27024 (Valve)
 5. Quickplay connecting to 146.66.153.12:27026 (Valve)
 6. Quickplay connecting to 46.4.85.38:27017 (Community, Nighteam)
 7. Quickplay connecting to 85.131.163.47:28015 (Community,
 IQ-eSports.com)
 8. Quickplay connecting to 146.66.153.13:27017 (Valve)
 9. Quickplay connecting to 146.66.153.7:27015 (Valve)

 Remember this:

 http://www.mail-archive.com/**hlds_linux@list.valvesoftware.**


 com/msg62826.html

 =))

 -Original Message-
 From:
 hlds_linux-bounces@list.**valvesoftware.com


 [mailto:hlds_linux-bounces@**list.valvesoftware.com]
 On Behalf Of 1nsane
 Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2012 4:21 PM
 To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list
 Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Suddenly very low server population

 Some time ago I noticed that quickplay started to send me to valve
 servers
 in a different state instead of community servers run in the same state
 as
 I reside in.
 In some cases it evens prefers empty valve servers over populated
 community
 servers. The only times I see it considering other servers for me is
 later
 in the day:


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 To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list
 archives, please visit:


 https://list.valvesoftware.**com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/**hlds_linux

>>>
>>> --
>>> -- Cameron Munroe
>>>
>>> http://www.cameronmunroe.com/
>>> http://www.munroenet.com/
>>> http://www.gaming-servers.net/
>>>
>>>
>>> __**_
>>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
>>> please visit:
>>>
>>>
>>> https://list.valvesoftware.**com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/**hlds_linux
>>>
>
> --
> -- Cameron Munroe
>
> http://www.cameronmunroe.com/
> http://www.munroenet.com/
> http://www.gaming-servers.net/
>
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Re: [hlds_linux] ED_Alloc: no free edicts

[Robert Paulson]

Speaking of frequent crashes, does anyone else get this stack trace?
It has been happening for about a year now, and I thought Valve would
fix it, but maybe I am the only one with this problem.

Program terminated with signal 6, Aborted.
0xf779f430 in __kernel_vsyscall ()
0xf779f430 in __kernel_vsyscall ()
0xf74eec4f in raise () from /lib32/libc.so.6
0xf74f2175 in abort () from /lib32/libc.so.6
0xf752621c in ?? () from /lib32/libc.so.6
0xf7530f02 in ?? () from /lib32/libc.so.6
0xf7532897 in ?? () from /lib32/libc.so.6
0xf75347c1 in malloc () from /lib32/libc.so.6
0xf775daa3 in CStdMemAlloc::Alloc(unsigned int) () from bin/libtier0.so
0xf3db4d86 in CUtlVector
>::InsertBefore(int, CUserCmd const&) () from
orangebox/tf/bin/server.so
0xf3d9d451 in CBasePlayer::ProcessUsercmds(CUserCmd*, int, int, int,
bool) () from orangebox/tf/bin/server.so
0xf3f3a498 in NextBotPlayer::PhysicsSimulate() () from
orangebox/tf/bin/server.so
0xf3f33980 in CTFBot::PhysicsSimulate() () from orangebox/tf/bin/server.so
0xf3d7259b in Physics_SimulateEntity(CBaseEntity*) () from
orangebox/tf/bin/server.so
0xf3d72964 in Physics_RunThinkFunctions(bool) () from orangebox/tf/bin/server.so
0xf3c5c670 in CServerGameDLL::GameFrame(bool) () from orangebox/tf/bin/server.so
0xf6c87bac in CServerPlugin::GameFrame(bool) () from orangebox/bin/engine.so
0xf6c82890 in SV_Think(bool) () from orangebox/bin/engine.so
0xf6c83aa0 in SV_Frame(bool) () from orangebox/bin/engine.so
0xf6bdadac in _Host_RunFrame_Server(bool) () from orangebox/bin/engine.so
0xf6bdbb2a in _Host_RunFrame(float) () from orangebox/bin/engine.so
0xf6bdc46f in Host_RunFrame(float) () from orangebox/bin/engine.so
0xf6be7c32 in CHostState::FrameUpdate(float) () from orangebox/bin/engine.so
0xf6be7f78 in HostState_Frame(float) () from orangebox/bin/engine.so
0xf6c9f5a0 in CEngine::Frame() () from orangebox/bin/engine.so
0xf6c9b55a in CDedicatedServerAPI::RunFrame() () from orangebox/bin/engine.so
0xf705719e in RunServer() () from bin/dedicated.so
0xf7056ea8 in CDedicatedExports::RunServer() () from bin/dedicated.so
0xf6c9be56 in CModAppSystemGroup::Main() () from orangebox/bin/engine.so
0xf6cb7138 in CAppSystemGroup::Run() () from orangebox/bin/engine.so
0xf6c9cc5a in CDedicatedServerAPI::ModInit(ModInfo_t&) () from
orangebox/bin/engine.so
0xf7057376 in CDedicatedAppSystemGroup::Main() () from bin/dedicated.so
0xf705aea8 in CAppSystemGroup::Run() () from bin/dedicated.so
0xf705cb8c in CSteamApplication::Main() () from bin/dedicated.so
0xf705aea8 in CAppSystemGroup::Run() () from bin/dedicated.so
0xf70577dd in main () from bin/dedicated.so
0xf7058cc5 in DedicatedMain () from bin/dedicated.so
0x080488ad in main ()


On Sun, Mar 25, 2012 at 3:06 AM, Kyle Sanderson  wrote:
> Has to be one of the most common crashes today. Except for vphysics of
> course, then the countless race conditions when threading is enabled.
>
> Kyle.
>
> On Sun, Mar 25, 2012 at 1:20 AM, ics  wrote:
>
>> No free edicts is usually caused by a map or  you have some plugins that
>> spawn extra entities. That option to increase them works only in HLDS, not
>> SRCDS. Limit is 2047 and when the entities hit 2048, boom.
>>
>> -ics
>>
>> 25.3.2012 10:01, Emil Larsson kirjoitti:
>>
>>  -nocrashdialog might be what you're looking for here.
>>>
>>> On Sun, Mar 25, 2012 at 8:59 AM, E3pO  wrote:
>>>
>>>  My server has been crashing into a dialog box that says Engine Error,
 "ED_Alloc: no free edicts". I googled for a possible solution and I came
 across this page 
 http://www.gamebanana.com/**threads/140329that
  says to
 add -num_edicts to the command line.. I'm guessing this is only for
 clients, not servers. I tested it anyway and the server still crashes to
 the dialog box.

 Because it is a dialog box the server wont automatically restart on
 crash... Is there a way to bypass this?
 http://www.wmclan.net/i/**images/52686724435814126767.**png


 Also.. It would be nice to be able to have clients reconnect to the
 server
 if the server crashes. It says "retrying" in the upper right hand corner
 of
 the screen. If it was just a connection issue then it will connect them
 back up, if it was an actual server crash but the server was fully
 restarted before the countdown ended, i believe it should reconnect to
 the
 server.
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[hlds_linux] micspam DOS attack "Buffer overflow in net message"

[Robert Paulson]

If multiple people micspam at the same time, it will kick people with
low rates set with "Buffer overflow in net message". This can be used
as a denial of service attack.

Is there any way to fix this without turning off voice chat or setting
sv_minrate really high?

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Re: [hlds_linux] Plr_pipeline carts stuck

[Robert Paulson]

It happens on other payload race maps like Hightower and Nightfall so
it is probably not a map bug.

I believe the bug has always been around. It is not just the last few
updates that caused it.

On Thu, Mar 1, 2012 at 11:20 PM, ics  wrote:
> Recently there was a case where folks were stuck on plr_pipeline stage 3 due
> to the carts not moving at all. Yesterday it happened again, for 2 hours
> nothing but pipeline stage 3 despite time running out.
>
> Is the map broken yet again by some update, anyone else seeing similiar?
> I've removed it from cycle for now.
>
> -ics
>
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Re: [hlds_linux] Mandatory TF2 update coming

[Robert Paulson]

This happened after the servers rebooted for the update.

On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 12:20 AM, ics  wrote:
> It's propably more of a feature when new update is realeased. You need to
> update server and reboot it anyway.
>
> -ics
>
> 24.2.2012 9:15, Michael Johansen kirjoitti:
>
>> My servers dropped at 18.00 GMT +1, four of them did not appear in the
>> masterserver-list but the rest did. Once i rebooted them everything worked
>> fine again.
>>
>>> Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2012 18:22:43 -0800
>>> From: thepauls...@gmail.com
>>> To: mreeu...@yahoo.com; hlds_linux@list.valvesoftware.com
>>> Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Mandatory TF2 update coming
>>>
>>> Did anyone's server get disconnected from the quickplay account after
>>> the update?
>>>
>>> The server was disconnected from quickplay and did not show up on the
>>> master server list until it was rebooted.
>>>
>>> Can Valve make it so servers will automatically try to reconnect to
>>> the master server?
>>>
>>> On Thu, Feb 23, 2012 at 3:17 PM, Mart-Jan Reeuwijk
>>>  wrote:

 Yeah, sorry to not see it back...

 ASBO quit, I'll drop mine too. No use beating a dead horse.



> 
> From: Frank
> To: 'Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing
> list'
> Sent: Thursday, 23 February 2012, 23:11
> Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Mandatory TF2 update coming
>
> I pray this has the old tf2 trading system restored... I don't know if
> my
> servers can sustain players much longer, the populations have come way
> down
> in the last week which has been effecting that far worse than the
> crashing.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com
> [mailto:hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Eric
> Smith
> Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2012 4:57 PM
> To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list; Half-Life dedicated
> Linux
> server mailing list; 'hlds_annou...@list.valvesoftware.com'
> Subject: [hlds_linux] Mandatory TF2 update coming
>
> We're working on releasing a mandatory TF2 update. We should have it
> ready
> soon.
>
> -Eric
>
>
> ___
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>
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>>>
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>>
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Re: [hlds_linux] Mandatory TF2 update coming

[Robert Paulson]

Did anyone's server get disconnected from the quickplay account after
the update?

The server was disconnected from quickplay and did not show up on the
master server list until it was rebooted.

Can Valve make it so servers will automatically try to reconnect to
the master server?

On Thu, Feb 23, 2012 at 3:17 PM, Mart-Jan Reeuwijk  wrote:
> Yeah, sorry to not see it back...
>
> ASBO quit, I'll drop mine too. No use beating a dead horse.
>
>
>
>>
>> From: Frank 
>>To: 'Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list' 
>>
>>Sent: Thursday, 23 February 2012, 23:11
>>Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Mandatory TF2 update coming
>>
>>I pray this has the old tf2 trading system restored... I don't know if my
>>servers can sustain players much longer, the populations have come way down
>>in the last week which has been effecting that far worse than the crashing.
>>
>>-Original Message-
>>From: hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com
>>[mailto:hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Eric Smith
>>Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2012 4:57 PM
>>To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list; Half-Life dedicated Linux
>>server mailing list; 'hlds_annou...@list.valvesoftware.com'
>>Subject: [hlds_linux] Mandatory TF2 update coming
>>
>>We're working on releasing a mandatory TF2 update. We should have it ready
>>soon.
>>
>>-Eric
>>
>>
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>>
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Re: [hlds_linux] Mandatory Team Fortress 2 Update Released

[Robert Paulson]

The holiday punch only stops the server from crashing. It doesn't
prevent the hl2.exe has stopped working client crashes that are much
more pervasive.

On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 2:19 PM, Eric Riemers  wrote:
> - Fixed a server crash caused by Holiday Punch critical attacks on physics
> objects
>
> I hope that solves a few random crashes :) thanks for the update.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com
> [mailto:hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Eric Smith
> Sent: donderdag 2 februari 2012 23:12
> To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list; 'Half-Life dedicated
> Win32 server mailing list'; 'hlds_annou...@list.valvesoftware.com'
> Subject: [hlds_linux] Mandatory Team Fortress 2 Update Released
>
> We've released a mandatory update to Team Fortress 2. The notes for the
> update are below.
>
> -Eric
>
> --
>
> Source Engine Changes (TF2, DoD:S, HL2:DM)
> - Adjusted error messages on servers when players drop due to Steam
> authentication failure to be more clear
> - Additional important server messages now go to the server log instead of
> just the console
>
> Team Fortress 2
> - Added The Conquistador
> - Added The Map Maker's Medallion
> - Added new promotional items
> - Added information about item origins to the WebAPI
> - Added "DamagedPlayer" animation event for the HUD, fired when the local
> player damages other players
> - Fixed The Head Warmer not displaying unusual particle effects correctly
> - Fixed paint applying incorrectly on Max's Severed Head
> - Fixed a server crash caused by Holiday Punch critical attacks on physics
> objects
> - Updated the Itsy Bitsy Spyer so it can also be equipped by the Sniper
> - Updated cp_foundry:
>   - Clip brush collision smoothing by the forward spawn alternate exit
>   - Fixed Nobuild exploits
>   - Fixed the teleporter player trap on the roof of the forward spawn
> alternate exit
>   - Fixed Nodraw and texturing errors
>   - Fixed clipping of barrels on final cap points
>   - Fixed fade distance on props
>   - Fixed lighting bugs in spytech vistas
>   - Removed props hidden in geometry
>   - Removed ability for players to cap the final point by standing on the
> catwalk behind it
>
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Re: [hlds_linux] The policy of truth is still in effect

[Robert Paulson]

You'll have to keep in mind that most of the people here are competing
server owners, so they don't really care if anything is done properly
as long as it doesn't affect them.

More servers banned = less competition for them.

On Wed, Jan 25, 2012 at 1:48 PM, Yuki  wrote:
> Valid points, but I really don't see what the harm is in doing it anyway? If
> you're going to announce it at all, why not do it properly?
>
>
> On 25/01/2012 21:40, James Puckett wrote:
>>
>> Its their fault for abusing the games general populous into believing
>> their
>> joining a full server, when in reality they arent. This is a good set of
>> regulations.
>> However announcing it won't catch everybody, its similar to people not
>> reading EULA's, and people break them on a daily basis but nobody
>> cares(especially valves retarded technology sanctioning on states labeled
>> as evil by the US)
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>
>
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Re: [hlds_linux] Cheat Engine & Report

[Robert Paulson]

It has been made known to me by private sources that this recent
release has been responsible for the recent surge of cheaters.

http://www.mpgh.net/forum/426-team-fortress-2-hacks/408054-tf2-darkstorm-hack-update.html

On Sat, Dec 24, 2011 at 10:17 AM, James Puckett
 wrote:
> Cheat engine is detected...
> VAC isn't thaat bad, its bad but not horrible.
>
> On Fri, Dec 23, 2011 at 10:09 PM, Juliano  wrote:
>
>> VAC is banning people who use cheat engine?
>> What happens when a complaint is made by the cheater profile page? (Report
>> violation)
>> All complaints are checked by staff of the valve?
>> Many cheaters are appearing lately...
>>
>> Thanks.
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Re: [hlds_linux] Wanted: bug reports for clients dropping due to auth

[Robert Paulson]

Yes that is true, but if you compare it to CS:S it looks like they are
doing a better job keeping regulars from getting bored, and I am
offering the most plausible explanation for it.

Yes it is true that TF2 still has more players before F2P, but since
it is free, it is unreasonable to expect TF2 to have less players
unless TF2 gameplay is truly that much inferior to CS:S.

On Sun, Dec 18, 2011 at 2:11 PM, ics  wrote:
> TF2 numbers might drop but that's only due to randomers who want to try to
> game getting off and the regulars getting bored. This is natural in any
> game. I used to have couple of months breaks back in teh days when you had
> to wait for the class updates. Only then there was something new to play,
> aside from custom maps.
>
> If i look at the graphs today and compare those to the days before TF2 went
> free to play, there's still about 15 000 - 25000 players more than back in
> those days. There's significantly more players now than spring. If you have
> servers emptying, it's not because of lack of players.
>
> -ics
>
> 18.12.2011 23:50, Robert Paulson kirjoitti:
>
>> I have already refuted all your claims. TF2 numbers will drop
>> precipitously again in a couple weeks or when the game of the month
>> comes out. Valve cannot make a large patch like this every month. You
>> can see the same trend in the graph for the Halloween update.
>>
>> I am done replying to you because all I am doing now pasting bite
>> sized chunks of what I already wrote because you are selectively
>> ignoring anyone that disagrees with you.
>>
>> On Sun, Dec 18, 2011 at 1:42 PM, dan  wrote:
>>>
>>> On 18/12/2011 10:28, Robert Paulson wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Can you please explain why CS:S players did not drop during that time
>>>> then?
>>>
>>>
>>> No and neither can you. Because we don't have the stats to determine
>>> that.
>>>
>>> It's clear though that TF2 drops between updates and it seemed to drop
>>> more
>>> after Skyrim's phenomenal figures for a time.
>>>
>>> So it's a guess. Why doesn't CS rely so much? I would say because it's an
>>> old game that runs on ancient hardware. I suspect many of people running
>>> it
>>> that keep the numbers high don't have the kit to run TF2 or Skyrim and
>>> other
>>> modern games, hence they will probably be less affected by releases of
>>> modern games. But to tell for sure we'd need data we don't have.
>>>
>>> But, one thing we do know. TF2 numbers today aren't low, they're high.
>>> And
>>> they didn't remove Quickplay.
>>>
>>> So it seems that your guess that quickplay is killing TF2 was wrong. The
>>> evidence today doesn't show it.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Dan.
>>>
>>>
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Re: [hlds_linux] Wanted: bug reports for clients dropping due to auth

[Robert Paulson]

I have already refuted all your claims. TF2 numbers will drop
precipitously again in a couple weeks or when the game of the month
comes out. Valve cannot make a large patch like this every month. You
can see the same trend in the graph for the Halloween update.

I am done replying to you because all I am doing now pasting bite
sized chunks of what I already wrote because you are selectively
ignoring anyone that disagrees with you.

On Sun, Dec 18, 2011 at 1:42 PM, dan  wrote:
> On 18/12/2011 10:28, Robert Paulson wrote:
>>
>> Can you please explain why CS:S players did not drop during that time
>> then?
>
>
> No and neither can you. Because we don't have the stats to determine that.
>
> It's clear though that TF2 drops between updates and it seemed to drop more
> after Skyrim's phenomenal figures for a time.
>
> So it's a guess. Why doesn't CS rely so much? I would say because it's an
> old game that runs on ancient hardware. I suspect many of people running it
> that keep the numbers high don't have the kit to run TF2 or Skyrim and other
> modern games, hence they will probably be less affected by releases of
> modern games. But to tell for sure we'd need data we don't have.
>
> But, one thing we do know. TF2 numbers today aren't low, they're high. And
> they didn't remove Quickplay.
>
> So it seems that your guess that quickplay is killing TF2 was wrong. The
> evidence today doesn't show it.
>
> --
> Dan.
>
>
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Re: [hlds_linux] Wanted: bug reports for clients dropping due to auth

[Robert Paulson]

You made an essay about how quickplay was made to kill bad servers
which is simply wrong.

Custom servers that are still getting people, but they are emptying
out faster because Valve is sending all the new players to quickplay
servers.

Custom servers are not in the same situation as before because now
there are thousands of quickplay servers artificially filled with
people dominating the browser list instead of being equally likely to
appear as before when people sort servers by number of players.

On Sun, Dec 18, 2011 at 1:34 PM, dan  wrote:
> On 18/12/2011 21:06, Robert Paulson wrote:
>>
>> If you were telling the truth you wouldn't be saying quickplay was
>> killing off pay-to-win servers when everyone keeps getting sent to
>> them via quickplay.
>
>
> I didn't say quickplay was killing off anything. Poor server owners chose to
> lie.
> That's why quickplay has pushed some people onto bad servers. AIUI Valve is
> doing something about this.
>
>
>> You apparently skimmed my posts and only read what you wanted to read.
>> There are good custom map servers that are getting shafted because
>> plain servers are advertised both on quickplay and the server browser.
>
>
> I notice plenty of trade servers are full and idle servers and achievement
> servers so how do they do what you cannot?
> Custom servers have exactly the same situation they always have.
>
> I think it's true to say Valve now have something better for finding good
> vanilla servers than they did, but I think it's taking things too far to
> decide people are too dumb to find a custom server because of quickplay. Can
> you find a custom server? If yes, then what makes you think you are so much
> more gifted than the rest of us?
>
> If you can't fill a custom server it's because people don't want to play on
> it. Simple as.
>
>
> --
> Dan
>
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Re: [hlds_linux] Wanted: bug reports for clients dropping due to auth

[Robert Paulson]

If you were telling the truth you wouldn't be saying quickplay was
killing off pay-to-win servers when everyone keeps getting sent to
them via quickplay.

You apparently skimmed my posts and only read what you wanted to read.
There are good custom map servers that are getting shafted because
plain servers are advertised both on quickplay and the server browser.
This is artificially inflating the popularity of plain servers.


On Sun, Dec 18, 2011 at 12:56 PM, dan  wrote:
> On 18/12/2011 09:54, Robert Paulson wrote:
>>
>> I get the feeling you are one of those server admins that never sticks
>> his head out of his own servers. Quickplay is not killing off your
>> competitors so all their players can go to your pet server. You need
>> to let go of your personal biases.
>
>
> Nope. In fact the reverse is true. I spend more time on other servers.
> Albeit, it doesn't really matter - that's my point.
>
> A good server is indistinguishable from another good server.
>
> I don't have any 'competitors' I thought I made that clear in my post.
>
> Quickplay fills good TF2 servers. (It might not be perfect, mostly because
> of some dubious server plugisn, but that is its aim afaict)
>
>
> --
> Dan
>
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Re: [hlds_linux] Wanted: bug reports for clients dropping due to auth

[Robert Paulson]

1. People don't play a game more because they paid more for it.
2. A class-based multiplayer FPS overlaps that much more than a
team-based FPS with a singleplayer RPG?
3. Same thing applies to CS:S. TF2 players shouldn't have dropped that
much from new games unless people were tired of the gameplay.
4. 57692 -> 54742 is a 5% drop, not 10%. Compare this with a 60% drop
for TF2 in November.
5. This is a temporary expansion from winter break and a new patch
that will subside in a month. The player count is still under CS:S.

Stop using Skyrim as a scapegoat. You cannot include people who leave
TF2 every time a new game comes out as part of the TF2 playerbase. It
is obvious to me that more people are playing CS:S instead of leaving
for new games like TF2 players because of the lack of variety.

On Sun, Dec 18, 2011 at 2:50 AM, bp  wrote:
> On Sun, Dec 18, 2011 at 11:28, Robert Paulson  wrote:
>> Can you please explain why CS:S players did not drop during that time then?
>
> Multiple possible explanations:
>
> 1. Because people who have *bought the game* are more invested than F2P's
> 2. Because the CS:S and the Skyrim (etc.) communities overlap less
> 3. Because the above effects compound across social connections ("all
> my friends are playing Skyrim and the TF2 server is empty...")
> 4. Because the CS:S players also dropped by roughly 10%
> 5. Because even despite this more recent drop, TF2 has still DOUBLED in size
>
> --bp
>
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Re: [hlds_linux] Wanted: bug reports for clients dropping due to auth

[Robert Paulson]

"That's not quickplay, that's Skyrim and other games being released in
the meantime, taking time from people who only have 24 hours in their
day."

Can you please explain why CS:S players did not drop during that time then?

On Sun, Dec 18, 2011 at 2:26 AM, bp  wrote:
> On Sun, Dec 18, 2011 at 10:54, Robert Paulson  wrote:
>> From the steady decline of TF2 players shown here compared to CS:S, it
>> is clear to me at a macro scale how quickplay is damaging TF2.
>
> That's not quickplay, that's Skyrim and other games being released in
> the meantime, taking time from people who only have 24 hours in their
> day.
>
> --bp
>
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Re: [hlds_linux] Wanted: bug reports for clients dropping due to auth

[Robert Paulson]

There are many people who desire custom maps because that is why you
had people complaining about the lack of 24 slot, default respawn
time, default map servers. Servers generally don't run maps that
aren't popular. But now Valve is now artificially inflating the
popularity of default servers by giving it a button on the top along
with all the players from it AND listing it in the server browser.
>From the steady decline of TF2 players shown here compared to CS:S, it
is clear to me at a macro scale how quickplay is damaging TF2.

http://steamgraph.net/index.php?action=graph&appid=q440q240&from=0

I am also confused why you think quickplay is the death of pay-to-win.
People are complaining on SPUF about being directed to pay-to-win
servers on quickplay. Let me repeat this from the Valve FAQ: "No, we
are not automatically disqualifying servers for server side mods. If
the mods results in a better or worse player experience, that will be
reflected in the back-end server score.".  If Valve is sending
everyone to 24 slot servers, the "bad" people will simply turn their
32 slot servers into two 24 slot servers without caring whether people
actually like bigger servers. Quickplay is not stopping anyone from
making money off of TF2.

I get the feeling you are one of those server admins that never sticks
his head out of his own servers. Quickplay is not killing off your
competitors so all their players can go to your pet server. You need
to let go of your personal biases.

"Th last thing a TF2 server should be, is something server admins feel
they need to create a unique selling point to differentiate themselves
from the rest of the "market"

Competition and differentiation is the entire point of allowing 3rd
party mods. This is why Counter-Strike and DOTA exist. The last thing
Valve needs is for every server to use a cookie-cutter configuration
and provide no extra value to the players. If they truly wanted that,
they would just use the 500 or so servers they have laying around, and
not deal with non-technical admins who are draining their hat money by
paying GSPs a huge service fee or asking their players to.

On Sun, Dec 18, 2011 at 12:51 AM, dan  wrote:
> On 17/12/2011 21:02, Robert Paulson wrote:
>>
>> Valve is making a mistake by listening to the vocal minority. The
>> people who complain on the forums do so because they aren't happy with
>> the current state of affairs while everyone else that was satisfied
>> did not feel a need to sign up on the forums.
>
>
> Does that premise not apply to the vocal minority complaining in this
> subthread then? :)
>
> If so, let me post that I think quickplay is one of the best things that
> ever happened to the game.
>
> And, custom servers have exactly what they had before. Nothing less. Except
> F2P potentially creates more players.
>
> The community grapevine advertises that kind of thing. If you have a
> wonderful custom map or gametype you shouldn't have much problem gaining the
> interest of the TF2 community in that mod, via reddit, youtube, SPUF,
> facepunch and so on. Look at the way the comp community advertises itself
> within the pub community, with comp v pub matches, long threads talking
> about what comp really is and things like that.
>
> I think a much better argument is that people wanted "real" tf2 and simply
> couldn't find it before. Now they can. I'm pretty sure those who love
> playing, say, 24/7 instant spawn 2fort servers are still playing on them.
> But, equally sure there were people who played on those instant spam 2fort
> because they couldn't find an alternative. A full server playing vanilla.
> Now they can. That's thanks to both quickplay and f2p. Not only that, if
> someone who wanted to play on a vanilla server thought "I'll run my own
> server" he or she can now fill that server with players (if and only if
> there are players around)
>
> And, really, the fact one server is like another is not a bad thing per se,
> is it? If I want to play cp_foundry over xmas, that's what I want to play.
> Why the need to make your cp_foundry different? I don't want to know or care
> whose server I'm on, no more than I want the owners of the routers my
> packets travel through to start jazzing up the webpages I see for no good
> reason. There's still plenty of opportunity for a server to say who they are
> on the welcome message and to build a community or advertise other servers
> they have. A modified server is fair enough, but complaining that servers
> need modifying simply for the sake of them being different from each other
> seems flawed.
>
> If many of the full servers are "the same", that's for good reason. It's
> because the game is for 12v

Re: [hlds_linux] Wanted: bug reports for clients dropping due to auth

[Robert Paulson]

"Sure lots of non-traditional servers have gotten the shaft because of
it but if you have group of core followers before the quickplay
feature was put in where did they go?"

A group of core followers does not keep a server populated. I get that
a few of you here have servers that are 5+ years old and are probably
in the server history of millions of people, but the great majority of
servers don't. The custom servers I used to visit have hundreds of
group members and the same dozens of people rejoining every day.

Let's face it, very few people want to be the first person to join a
server when it starts out empty. Every server is reliant on random
pubbers and new players to prevent the server from emptying out when
there are fewer core players, so the times when a server had 0 players
are as few as possible. I am willing to bet if Valve removed
quickplay, most of the made-for-quickplay servers would empty out
completely.

This is about a meritocracy. Giving a bias towards default gameplay is
only going to reinforce a monoculture of gameplay. If Valve/WON had
this policy before, mods like CS might never have taken off, or at
least delayed for a year or two. Same goes for DOTA. Even though there
is a Play button in WC3, the default servers don't show up in the
browser.

On Sat, Dec 17, 2011 at 2:23 PM, doc  wrote:
> Quickplay is a good feature. It gives you a one-button TF2 experience,
> which I believed is aimed at the influx of new Free2Play users. Sure lots
> of non-traditional servers have gotten the shaft because of it but if you
> have group of core followers before the quickplay feature was put in -
> where did they go?
>
> Game communities are hard to build, no longer can you just put up a server
> and have it fill itself - you gotta put some extra work into it, limit
> choice to provide a better experience, host some weekly events or monthly
> contest on your servers.
>
> On Sat, Dec 17, 2011 at 1:02 PM, Robert Paulson wrote:
>
>> Valve is making a mistake by listening to the vocal minority. The
>> people who complain on the forums do so because they aren't happy with
>> the current state of affairs while everyone else that was satisfied
>> did not feel a need to sign up on the forums. This probably created an
>> illusion that gameplay that is modified in any way is highly undesired
>> since you only see complaints and no praise.
>>
>> I also quite certain quickplay does not prevent you from joining
>> servers modified in any other way besides their arbitrary limitations.
>> From Valve's own FAQ: "No, we are not automatically disqualifying
>> servers for server side mods. If the mods results in a better or worse
>> player experience, that will be reflected in the back-end server
>> score." I have been sent to modified servers by quickplay many times.
>> People also complain on SPUF about the lack of class limits, so you
>> cannot use this argument to say quickplay is solving these problems.
>>
>> Since it does not really solve any of these problems except making
>> game joining a few seconds faster at the cost of variety, I do not see
>> quickplay as a positive feature.
>>
>> On Sat, Dec 17, 2011 at 3:48 AM, ics  wrote:
>> > Quickplay was added due to so many servers running mods and something
>> that
>> > isn't TF2 core game, but modified and "ruined". Class limits, instant
>> spawn,
>> > faster spawn, fake clients, you all know which ones modify the game.
>> People
>> > wanted "default" and they got it. There was a long thread, propably
>> still is
>> > on SPUF where people expressed what they didn't like on current game
>> > servers. This is why quickplay was created and it's pretty good system.
>> Only
>> > thing i don't like in it is that my custom map servers have taken a big
>> hit
>> > on player counts, which is why i already changed rotations much more
>> Valve
>> > than ever just to have players to be able to play with full server and
>> not
>> > half empty.
>> >
>> > Once the average player gets bored to basic maps and gameplay, he might
>> want
>> > to try something else. That's where the custom maps, new mods and such
>> come
>> > in. The free 2 play community might not get into those that much, atleast
>> > not yet but later on, those that keep playing, will. Some people like
>> faster
>> > respawn times, i used to be one. Then i found out that no, that's not
>> good
>> > and the default times are just fine. It's a problem in players skill
>> level
>> > or class selections if the gam

Re: [hlds_linux] Wanted: bug reports for clients dropping due to auth

[Robert Paulson]

Valve is making a mistake by listening to the vocal minority. The
people who complain on the forums do so because they aren't happy with
the current state of affairs while everyone else that was satisfied
did not feel a need to sign up on the forums. This probably created an
illusion that gameplay that is modified in any way is highly undesired
since you only see complaints and no praise.

I also quite certain quickplay does not prevent you from joining
servers modified in any other way besides their arbitrary limitations.
>From Valve's own FAQ: "No, we are not automatically disqualifying
servers for server side mods. If the mods results in a better or worse
player experience, that will be reflected in the back-end server
score." I have been sent to modified servers by quickplay many times.
People also complain on SPUF about the lack of class limits, so you
cannot use this argument to say quickplay is solving these problems.

Since it does not really solve any of these problems except making
game joining a few seconds faster at the cost of variety, I do not see
quickplay as a positive feature.

On Sat, Dec 17, 2011 at 3:48 AM, ics  wrote:
> Quickplay was added due to so many servers running mods and something that
> isn't TF2 core game, but modified and "ruined". Class limits, instant spawn,
> faster spawn, fake clients, you all know which ones modify the game. People
> wanted "default" and they got it. There was a long thread, propably still is
> on SPUF where people expressed what they didn't like on current game
> servers. This is why quickplay was created and it's pretty good system. Only
> thing i don't like in it is that my custom map servers have taken a big hit
> on player counts, which is why i already changed rotations much more Valve
> than ever just to have players to be able to play with full server and not
> half empty.
>
> Once the average player gets bored to basic maps and gameplay, he might want
> to try something else. That's where the custom maps, new mods and such come
> in. The free 2 play community might not get into those that much, atleast
> not yet but later on, those that keep playing, will. Some people like faster
> respawn times, i used to be one. Then i found out that no, that's not good
> and the default times are just fine. It's a problem in players skill level
> or class selections if the game doesn't advance or the other team takes all
> points all the time.
>
> I agree that the server browser should be somehow enhanced. For example
> player should be able to press for example f3 to instantly add the server to
> favorites, not by "hey open the server browser and press add current server"
> and the user goes "what is server browser".
> Then i need to explain it and it takes time before it's done. I could just
> say press f3 to do it and then the player should have server browser (or
> even option to browse favorite servers separately) open. That server browser
> should also include some option to search for custom maps and exclude all
> the regulars. That way also the custom map servers, that are excluded from
> the quickplay as long as wrong map is on, might have more players.
>
> Explain cookie-cutters?
>
> -ics
>
> 17.12.2011 11:28, Robert Paulson kirjoitti:
>
>> I will have to agree with Dan. I believe even the quickplay system is
>> having a negative effect on TF2. Quickplay is good for getting into a
>> game quickly, but it is featured prominently as the first button on
>> the screen so everyone clicks on it and never learns there are unique
>> servers that aren't on there.
>>
>> Most people probably never stop using it because they probably assume
>> the browser is just a manual way to pick the same servers available in
>> quickplay. I am seeing swaths of 24 slot servers with default maps and
>> respawn times filled all the time while some of my favorite servers
>> that don't fit the quickplay standard (maps, slightly faster respawn
>> times, larger slots) that used to be full at midnight now empty out 4
>> hours earlier. Some of them are shutting down, and I find myself
>> playing less and less TF2.
>>
>> It becomes very difficult to find servers that aren't a cookie cutter
>> quickplay build because:
>>
>> 1. Players who have been weaned on quickplay probably never figure out
>> alternative settings exist.
>> 2. If they search through the browser, not only are there 4,000+
>> servers to choose from, but these custom servers have to compete with
>> the quickplay servers that are filled with even more players already.
>> 3. More and more cookie-cutter quickplay servers are popping up
>>

Re: [hlds_linux] Wanted: bug reports for clients dropping due to auth

[Robert Paulson]

I will have to agree with Dan. I believe even the quickplay system is
having a negative effect on TF2. Quickplay is good for getting into a
game quickly, but it is featured prominently as the first button on
the screen so everyone clicks on it and never learns there are unique
servers that aren't on there.

Most people probably never stop using it because they probably assume
the browser is just a manual way to pick the same servers available in
quickplay. I am seeing swaths of 24 slot servers with default maps and
respawn times filled all the time while some of my favorite servers
that don't fit the quickplay standard (maps, slightly faster respawn
times, larger slots) that used to be full at midnight now empty out 4
hours earlier. Some of them are shutting down, and I find myself
playing less and less TF2.

It becomes very difficult to find servers that aren't a cookie cutter
quickplay build because:

1. Players who have been weaned on quickplay probably never figure out
alternative settings exist.
2. If they search through the browser, not only are there 4,000+
servers to choose from, but these custom servers have to compete with
the quickplay servers that are filled with even more players already.
3. More and more cookie-cutter quickplay servers are popping up
because they are the only ones getting filled like before. No players
= no donations.

It is my humble opinion that quickplay is creating an unhealthy
homogeneous selection of servers and players. The average player can
only be entertained so much by the standard settings before they get
bored of them, and instead of finding a customized server that suits
their tastes, they quit the game without knowing about the
alternatives. I believe this is why the number of TF2 players have
dropped below CS:S and continued to decline until this recent update
and impending winter break.

On Fri, Dec 16, 2011 at 10:45 PM, dan  wrote:
> On 15/12/2011 23:51, Fletcher Dunn wrote:
>>
>> We are working on something like this.  The ability to "level" your game
>> server account.  Certain benefits would only be given to servers with
>> level>= N, etc.  Show the level in the server browser and give preferential
>> treatment, etc.  Get caught breaking the rules, and you lose your level,
>> etc.
>
>
> With respect. Even without details, this sounds like a really, really bad
> idea tm.
>
> (Although I suppose if you collect 500 genius game polymaths in a building
> they'll soon see the solution to every problem is to create a game. You
> probably can't get a coke from your canteen without solving a puzzle? :) )
>
> You only have to read the angst in the threads that the current server
> reputation causes to see that.
>
> --
> Dan.
>
>
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Re: [hlds_linux] A question about serverscore

[Robert Paulson]

The 24/7 server is older. Don't you get more quickplay players the
higher your reputation is?

On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 4:19 PM, 1nsane <1nsane...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Is the age of these servers the same? Steam backend updates the score, so
> your map changes shouldn't matter.
>
> These numbers don't really mean anything. As long as they keep going up and
> not into negatives you are fine.
>
> 24/7 2Fort:
>         - Reputation: 9553364
>         - Banned: false
>         - Total Connects: 8394560
>
> Rotation:
>         - Reputation: 7053039
>         - Banned: false
>         - Total Connects: 5519855
>
>
>
> On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 7:02 PM, Robert Paulson wrote:
>
>> I noticed our 24/7 server has a score of 800 while our rotation server
>> has a score of 20,000. The 24/7 server is much more populated than
>> rotation server.
>>
>> Is it recommended to reload the map every hour on a 24/7 server to gain
>> score?
>>
>> On Sat, Dec 10, 2011 at 2:54 PM, Fletcher Dunn
>>  wrote:
>> > There are two independent scoring systems.  One for Steam, one for TF2.
>>  They work on similar principles, but are not identical.  The purpose of
>> both is primarily to identify really bad servers, not differentiate between
>> "good" and "better" ones.
>> >
>> > We will probably merge them at some point.
>> >
>> > -Original Message-
>> > From: hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto:
>> hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of dan
>> > Sent: Saturday, December 10, 2011 9:22 AM
>> > To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list
>> > Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] A question about serverscore
>> >
>> > On 09/12/2011 16:07, Andrew DeMerse wrote:
>> >> You guys are confusing different systems, here.
>> >
>> > Well you're right to note the initial reason for the scoring was
>> different, but I think you're wrong to conclude that the systems are
>> completely independent
>> >
>> > Here there are several references to score :-
>> > https://support.steampowered.com/kb_article.php?ref=2825-AFGJ-3513
>> >
>> > I note my server during quiet periods when people join, see it's empty
>> and leave, the trend report usually says 'Downward fast'
>> > Whereas, when you have a busy server over the weekend, with people
>> stopping on for hours or more and the server full, it says 'upward fast'
>> >
>> > Whether you get quickplay players though, as I said in my previous post,
>> has, ime far more to do with whether there are player around in the first
>> place.
>> >
>> > Since the configuration of my server hasn't changed they haven't
>> adjusted the score based on anything I have done.
>> > It seems fairly easy to conclude that they are using the same basic
>> negative score on join, positive point per minute of play to score
>> quickplay servers.
>> >
>> > But they are using the score for something else - together with a bunch
>> of other factors, to pick a server for someone to join, as you say, it
>> isn't to blacklist or delist servers.
>> > (Although they can delist from quickplay for e.g abusing the halloween
>> gifts system, presumably that's the good /bad standing setting)
>> >
>> > They might have tweaked the numbers or the algorithm. But I doubt they
>> are doing anything substantially different for the base score before it's
>> modified by the other factors they mention in the support article.
>> > If only because the words up and down quite obviously refer to a
>> numerical score and there isn't really a lot you can do to decide if a
>> server is "good" or not, using the data valve have, other than looking at
>> the length of time people play on it.
>> > --
>> > Dan
>> >
>> > ___
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>> please visit:
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Re: [hlds_linux] A question about serverscore

[Robert Paulson]

I noticed our 24/7 server has a score of 800 while our rotation server
has a score of 20,000. The 24/7 server is much more populated than
rotation server.

Is it recommended to reload the map every hour on a 24/7 server to gain score?

On Sat, Dec 10, 2011 at 2:54 PM, Fletcher Dunn
 wrote:
> There are two independent scoring systems.  One for Steam, one for TF2.  They 
> work on similar principles, but are not identical.  The purpose of both is 
> primarily to identify really bad servers, not differentiate between "good" 
> and "better" ones.
>
> We will probably merge them at some point.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com 
> [mailto:hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of dan
> Sent: Saturday, December 10, 2011 9:22 AM
> To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list
> Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] A question about serverscore
>
> On 09/12/2011 16:07, Andrew DeMerse wrote:
>> You guys are confusing different systems, here.
>
> Well you're right to note the initial reason for the scoring was different, 
> but I think you're wrong to conclude that the systems are completely 
> independent
>
> Here there are several references to score :-
> https://support.steampowered.com/kb_article.php?ref=2825-AFGJ-3513
>
> I note my server during quiet periods when people join, see it's empty and 
> leave, the trend report usually says 'Downward fast'
> Whereas, when you have a busy server over the weekend, with people stopping 
> on for hours or more and the server full, it says 'upward fast'
>
> Whether you get quickplay players though, as I said in my previous post, has, 
> ime far more to do with whether there are player around in the first place.
>
> Since the configuration of my server hasn't changed they haven't adjusted the 
> score based on anything I have done.
> It seems fairly easy to conclude that they are using the same basic negative 
> score on join, positive point per minute of play to score quickplay servers.
>
> But they are using the score for something else - together with a bunch of 
> other factors, to pick a server for someone to join, as you say, it isn't to 
> blacklist or delist servers.
> (Although they can delist from quickplay for e.g abusing the halloween gifts 
> system, presumably that's the good /bad standing setting)
>
> They might have tweaked the numbers or the algorithm. But I doubt they are 
> doing anything substantially different for the base score before it's 
> modified by the other factors they mention in the support article.
> If only because the words up and down quite obviously refer to a numerical 
> score and there isn't really a lot you can do to decide if a server is "good" 
> or not, using the data valve have, other than looking at the length of time 
> people play on it.
> --
> Dan
>
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Re: [hlds_linux] iptables mangling

[Robert Paulson]

You can rent a "booter" botnet from www.hackforums.net for about $5 or
even free if you are a long term member.

DDoS at your server? It's more likely than you think!

On Sun, Dec 11, 2011 at 7:05 PM, Brian Rak  wrote:
>
> You think "most" users have the ability to DDoS a server? (not just using
> some crappy flooding tool from their PC, but an actual DDoS?)  WTF kind of
> users do you have playing on your server?
>
> On Sun, Dec 11, 2011 at 8:55 PM, James Puckett <
> jamesrichardpuck...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > The problem is, when you ban a user they will most likely DDoS you from my
> > experience as skiddies are becoming quite a problem in the community.
> >
> > On Sun, Dec 11, 2011 at 2:41 PM, Jesse Molina 
> > wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > It's not so much that he might be doing something that is causing users
> > > harm: If he is, ban him.  Not my problem and everyone is better off.
> > >
> > > But whatever security protection he thinks he's getting is almost
> > > certainly doing squat for him anyway, so he is going through a lot of
> > > trouble for nothing.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > msleeper wrote:
> > >
> > >> I'm sure you think that what you're doing is noble, but having
> > >> multiple IPs point to the same gameserver is cheating the system no
> > >> matter how you look at it.
> > >>
> > >
> > > --
> > > # Jesse Molina
> > > # Mail = je...@opendreams.net
> > > # Page = page-je...@opendreams.net
> > > # Cell = 1.602.323.7608
> > > # Web  = http://www.opendreams.net/**jesse/<
> > http://www.opendreams.net/jesse/>
> > >
> > >
> > >
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Re: [hlds_linux] Optional TF2, DoD:S, and HL2:DM update released

[Robert Paulson]

The reason why you are seeing so many quickplay players now is because most
people haven't rebooted their servers to fix the "account : not logged in
 (Cannot locate owner's steam account)" problem that happened after the
update yesterday.

On Wed, Nov 30, 2011 at 12:59 PM, Michael Tharp
wrote:

> On 11/30/2011 02:00 PM, Eric Smith wrote:
>
>> We've released an optional update for TF2, DoD:S, and HL2:DM.  The notes
>> are below.
>>
>
> Were there any registration/quickplay backend changes since yesterday's
> update? My server has for the past month or so been struggling with
> quickplay traffic almost never coming in reliably. But immediately after
> applying this update and restarting, the server filled within 3 minutes
> even though it was just an "optional" update so there shouldn't have been a
> server shortage. Previously it was reporting in "status" as registered and
> people would still come in in small bursts once there were 4-6 players but
> it was unreliable. Now it filled instantly at 2PM Eastern time after
> applying an irrelevant update and has stayed full since then. The only
> strange thing is that immediately before I shut down the server (which was
> empty) to apply the update, the status had changed to this:
>
> account : not logged in  (Cannot locate owner's steam account)
>
> But I have never seen this until today, and just this one time, and of
> course after restarting the server it logged in normally and traffic
> immediately came in. Absolutely no configuration changes were made in the
> interim. In case anyone at Valve wants to poke around, the account_id is
> 409.
>
> Thanks,
> -- m. tharp
>
>
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Re: [hlds_linux] Server Reputation

[Robert Paulson]

Does no-steam login or changing maps cause reputation loss?

I also see an incentive to start DDoS attacks on established servers now.

On Fri, Nov 25, 2011 at 12:10 PM, Saul Rennison wrote:

> High pings have minimal effect on gameplay, it will affect the high pinger
> far more than any attackers.
>
> Interpolation makes a 500ms player seem smooth (assuming minimal loss)
>
>
> Kind regards,
> *Saul Rennison*
>
>
> On 25 November 2011 19:31, ics  wrote:
>
> > Imagine one troll making your server lose -15 points, a 24 slot server
> > gains 1000-3000 per week or even more depending how full it is and how
> long
> > players stay. Match the odds and see how much does it affect. Answer: not
> > much. Kick the idiots away.
> >
> > -ics
> >
> > 25.11.2011 21:25, E3pO kirjoitti:
> >
> >  Any clue if kicking players for high ping kills server reputation? I
> have
> >> my high ping set to 200 and it kicks someone ever 30 minutes or so for
> >> high
> >> ping.
> >>
> >> What if someone joins the server and starts trolling instantly? Voice
> >> Spam,
> >> Hacking, or something to that nature. Does banning them hurt server
> >> reputation because they leave and their playing time wasn't up to the
> >> positive reputation point?
> >>
> >> What if the server is empty and someone joins and then leaves right
> away?
> >>
> >> On Fri, Nov 25, 2011 at 1:59 PM, ics  wrote:
> >>
> >>  As i recall, it's ip-based so if one server running on port 27055 gets
> >>> banned, all servers running that ip get banned too. So just changing
> port
> >>> might reset your negative reputation score.
> >>>
> >>> Someone already mentioned - this reputation predates the server
> >>> registering system about a year so most of the people who have been
> >>> running
> >>> server long time naturally have more reputation than the ones that just
> >>> started. It doesn't really matter anyway, since the reputation is only
> >>> there to make sure bad servers get bad rep and eventually banned from
> >>> server pool so folks don't go into those bad servers anymore.
> >>>
> >>> -ics
> >>>
> >>> 25.11.2011 13:28, E3pO kirjoitti:
> >>>
> >>>  Looks to have something to do with ports for sure... The -700 server
> is
> >>> on
> >>>
>  the same IP as one that is now at +25 after some playing. They are
> port
>  27015 and port 27016.
> 
>  Definitively bound to server ip's port.
> 
>  On Fri, Nov 25, 2011 at 6:21 AM, Asher Baker
>  wrote:
> 
>   On Fri, Nov 25, 2011 at 11:11 AM, Jeff Sugar
> 
> >  wrote:
> >
> >  Going back to the topic at hand: Good question as to what it is tied
> >> to.
> >> One would think the IP would be at least partially involved, maybe
> >> it's
> >> stored by both in case only the IP or only the token changes. I
> >> imagine
> >> they want to make it difficult for servers which are legitimately
> >> doing
> >> poorly (blacklisted or in the red due underhanded methods) to just
> >> wipe
> >>
> >>  the
> >
> >  slate clean and begin the cycle again.
> >>
> >>  Master server reputation (what this plugin shows) pre-dates the
> > registration system, it's purely based on IP (and possibly port, bans
> > are IP-only though).
> >
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Re: [hlds_linux] [hlds] Fake clients, misreported bots, infringing usage of player names/images

[Robert Paulson]

gt; <mailto:hlds-**boun...@list.valvesoftware.com
>> **>  
>> [mailto:hlds-bounces@list.**valvesoftware.com
>> <mailto:hlds-**boun...@list.valvesoftware.com
>> **>] On Behalf Of msleeper
>> Sent: Wednesday, November 02, 2011 12:45 PM
>> To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list
>> Subject: Re: [hlds] [hlds_linux] Fake clients, misreported bots,
>> infringing usage of player names/images
>>
>> Fletcher - Is there someone we can report blatantly, aggressively
>> abusive servers to in an attempt to escalate the worst offenders to
>> human intervention? I don't think any of us here are expecting a
>> flawless programmatic solution to the issue of Bad Servers, nor would
>> we expect Valve staff to spend paid manhours joining and checking
>> servers instead of working on much more important tasks, but as
>> someone else said, the 1% worst offenders are "too big to fail" and
>> seem to be falling through the cracks in your automated systems. The
>> reporting tool sounds like a great solution, but my immediate concern
>> is that it might not pan out like you (and us server ops) are hoping
>> since the vast majority of players probably aren't even aware of such
>> problems.
>>
>> On Wed, Nov 2, 2011 at 2:50 PM, Fletcher Dunn
>> mailto:fletcherd@**valvesoftware.com>>
>>  wrote:
>>
>>> This is a problem we're obviously aware of.  It's definitely not that we
>>> don't care.  However, it is essentially an arms race that is provably
>>> unwinnable by Valve.  Furthermore, any change we make in the name of
>>> security will almost certainly cause a disruption of legitimate service,
>>> due to bugs on our part, or usage cases we're just not aware of.  It is a
>>> classic conflict between security and accessibility.
>>>
>>> Hopefully those two reasons help explain our reluctance to address these
>>> sorts of problems through technology.  They will create an ongoing arms
>>> race, in which we can possibly limit this activity and make it harder, but
>>> probably never eliminate it completely.  Furthermore, this benefit comes at
>>> a cost of taking resources away from adding features and fixing bugs, and
>>> also disrupting legitimate users.
>>>
>>> When we can do simple and safe things to make it harder to do these
>>> sorts of things, we will.  We have some protocol changes that will make it
>>> harder to do this sort of spoofing, which have been beta tested for some
>>> time now.  We'll be rolling those out in the next couple of months.
>>>
>>> Crowdsourcing using the abuse reports helps us stay out of the arms
>>> race, and it's the safest and simplest way to deal with this problem and
>>> many others like it.
>>>
>>> Your humble servant,
>>> Fletch
>>>
>>>
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: 
>>> hlds_linux-bounces@list.**valvesoftware.com
>>> <mailto:hlds_**linux-bounces@list.**valvesoftware.com>
>>>  
>>> [mailto:hlds_linux-bounces@**list.valvesoftware.com
>>> <mailto:**hlds_linux-bounces@list.**valvesoftware.com>]
>>> On Behalf Of Mart-Jan Reeuwijk
>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 02, 2011 5:39 AM
>>> To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list
>>> Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Fake clients, misreported bots, infringing
>>> usage of player names/images
>>>
>>> there is some italian group that does that.
>>>
>>> they have dozens maybe even in the hundred of servers in server list,
>>> but all get redirected to 1 server. and those server report a variety of
>>> maps played, names in server lists etc. you click info, refresh, says for
>>> example dustbowl, and then join, get redirected to their server, with bots,
>>> and another map then advertized in the server info. Its damn annoying. And
>>> indeed, they change IP's a lot, to evade blacklisting.
>>>
>>>
>>>  __**__
>>>> From: daniel jokiaho
>>>> <mailto:daniel.jokiaho@**gmail.com >>
>>>> To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list>>> valvesoftware.com <mailto:hlds_**
>>>> li...@list.valvesoftware.com >>
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, 2 November 2011, 7:27
>>>> Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Fake clients, misreported bots, infringing
>>>> usage of player names/images
>>>>
>>>> what about servers on different ips and port that

Re: [hlds_linux] Fake clients, misreported bots, infringing usage of player names/images

[Robert Paulson]

It is very rude of you to repeatedly spam the mailing list to pressure
Valve into doing whatever you want instead of working on crashes and
content.

Valve has already put in a huge effort making these servers less prominent.

- Blacklist
- Quickplay
- Reputation

It isn't perfect but blacklisting takes care of the servers you don't like
once you've spotted them. Quickplay and reputation filter most of the ones
you haven't spotted yet. No one I know has any problems finding a server
full of real players. Everyone I know just blacklists and move on.

Server IPs do not change often since it costs money to buy new ones and you
need proper ARIN justification to get more due to the IPV4 shortage. The
fact that you are on here spamming about it as though TF2 is going to die
out next week makes me think that you are struggling with your own server
rather than being a concerned player.

I also hate the big pay-to-win servers with fake clients, but it would be a
mistake for Valve to just de-list them, wrongly assuming no one really
wants to play there. I have a friend who wouldn't be playing TF2 if they
didn't exist and has bought hundreds of dollars worth of Mann Co keys. And
from what he tells me he isn't the only one. Yes he knows there are bots.
The "cloaked" bots appeal to him for the same reason Valve decided not to
name bots bot1, bot2, bot3 and to have them taunt randomly.

These servers still exist not because of a fake player plugin but because,
as much as it pains us to believe, some players actually prefer them.

No one here is enthusiastic about having Valve delist servers based on
anonymous reports because we all know that the system will be abused even
though they have "taken basic measures to prevent" it. We know this because
they also took "measures" to prevent F2P players from avoiding VAC bans by
making throw-away accounts, yet I still see hackers that have made at least
5 of them in a row and even adding their old VAC banned account on their
friends list.

To save Valve the administration overhead and abuse, and to satisfy both
server administrators and players, I suggest dropping the server report
function and adding either of these 2 features.

1. Add a check-box for Valve-only/Favorites-only Quickplay servers.

2. Let premium players rate servers from 1 to 5 upon disconnection. Each
player may only vote once. To prevent voter apathy, servers are
automatically rated a 5 if the player does not vote. Then the user can
decide for him/herself to connect to the server based on the rating rather
than a few opinionated complainers.

These two solutions address the root of the problem and lets the player
decide while freeing Valve to work on more content.
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RE: [hlds_linux] logfile cleaning.

[Robert Paulson]

Problem with the ones that clean the empty log files, is that if you don't
have "log on" in autoexec.cfg then it will delete all log files that tell
what map was loaded, so then Psychostats will do some funky stuff to the map
stats.  I found this out the hard way.

To answer the question yes there is some programs that do this on
Psychostats website.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Tyler
"Overkill" Schwend
Sent: Sunday, December 08, 2002 11:49 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [hlds_linux] logfile cleaning.


He means... are there any programs that will delete empty
logfiles.

I believe so... If you look in the psychostats contribs.

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RE: server bug fix requests too :) [was Re: [hlds_linux] client bug fix requests for Valve]

[Robert Paulson]

Then I wonder why I have problems with it, two different hardware configs, 2
different linux configs, and I still have memory and or processor leaks

I usually have to restart the servers daily becaus their usage gets way out
of hand.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Chris
Fairbanks
Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2002 1:51 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: server bug fix requests too :) [was Re: [hlds_linux] client
bug fix requests for Valve]


Robert,
There are a lot of people out there that have ZERO problems with
adminmod, metamod and statsme.  I (and I think I speak for a decent
amount of admins) prefer that valve does not build these in.  If they do
we would be limited to what they have to offer, where with metamod and
the other plug-ins we have the ability to create/customize our own.

-Chris


-Original Message-
From: Robert Paulson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 11:41 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: server bug fix requests too :) [was Re: [hlds_linux] client
bug fix requests for Valve]


It would be nice if Valve just built an admin system into HL, so if you
have rcon, or your won is on the list, then you get admin menu, that
would take care of admin_mod and metamod.  That and of course
incorporate Statsme into the game as well.  I have had nothing but
problems with the addons, whether the CPU usage goes way up for no
reason, or memory leak from their usage...

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Eric
(Deacon)
Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 7:15 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: server bug fix requests too :) [was Re: [hlds_linux] client
bug fix requests for Valve]


> Had the railing on the bridge in aztec disappear on a different
server,
> but that was only once. Window at T spawn on Prodigy a few times..
> Never had any other complaints of disappearing entities though

Disappearing entities is a huge and common problem that seems to be
mainly related to running admin_mod (or metamod...still not sure which
one trips it up, seeing as how admin_mod does not run without metamod,
heh).  The admin_mod authors point the finger at Valve, and Valve points
its finger right back at the admin_mod authors.  So who knows?

--
Eric (the Deacon remix)

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RE: [hlds_linux] Log-File Naming

[Robert Paulson]

I created a file to startup each clan server with the logsdir command in
that file, it works fine for medon't know why it wouldn't work for
you...

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of m0gely
Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 12:14 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Log-File Naming


Robert Paulson wrote:
> I am guessing that you are wanting to setup server that may have a few
clan
> servers?
>
> If this is it, you can just create a directory and push all the logs to
that
> directory.
> I believe the command in your startline is
>
> "-logsdir Clannamelogs"
>

i haven't been able to make that command work on the startup line.
-logsdir or +logsdir.  if someone finds a way i would sure like to know.
  not a huge deal as it works in the server.cfg just fine.  and chances
are that if this server is for diff clans, there will be diff server
configs anyways.

--
- m0gely
http://quake2.telestream.com/
Q2 | Q3A | Counter-strike

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RE: [hlds_linux] Multiple servers and stuff

[Robert Paulson]

thanks m0gely

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of m0gely
Sent: Friday, July 05, 2002 11:01 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [hlds_linux] Multiple servers and stuff


This is the variable "logsdir":

So:
logsdir logdir2

- m0gely

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:hlds_linux-
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Robert Paulson
> Sent: Thursday, July 04, 2002 12:39 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: RE: [hlds_linux] Multiple servers and stuff
>
> That helps, how about changing the log directory?
>

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