Re: [Hornlist] Conductors etc
Linda Sherman wrote: Speaking strictly as an audience member, the most reliable factor that always seems to separate the good conductors from the not-so-good is how they use tempo. The good ones just seem to have the right feel for the tempo and the general flow of the music, while the not-so-good ones just don't get the tempo and flow right I find this very hard to describe. Maybe someone can help me out here. Speaking as an audience member I find that several factors separate the good conductors from the not-so-good, but I agree that this tempo issue is very important. One recording which has always struck me for the perfection of the tempi is Der Freischutz conducted by Carlos Kleiber. What a delight! Daniel ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Conductors etc
Where is the Cabbage in all this? I'm sure he would be willing to explain to us just exactly what atomic structure is needed to make a good conductor. I'm sure it has something to do with the distribution of electrons in the nuclear structure. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Linda Sherman Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2006 8:04 AM To: The Horn List Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Conductors etc hans wrote: >What makes a good conductor > > Speaking strictly as an audience member, the most reliable factor that always seems to separate the good conductors from the not-so-good is how they use tempo. The good ones just seem to have the right feel for the tempo and the general flow of the music, while the not-so-good ones just don't get the tempo and flow right I find this very hard to describe. Maybe someone can help me out here. Linda ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/bgross%40airmail.net ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Conductors of amateur ensembles
In a message dated 10/10/2006 16:09:28 GMT Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: "He conducted a very well known amateur orchestra in the north Cheshire commuter belt where many of the Manchester professional community (medical practitioners, lawyers, university lecturers, senior business people etc., etc) reside and the orchestra was made up of such people. " Hi Paul,, Believe it or not, it's the same orchestra, but a different conductor - they must have a death wish! Cheers, Lawrence ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Conductors of amateur ensembles
Message text written by The Horn List >he used to yell and bawl > at his players and more than once I saw grown men and women > crying behind their stands. < Dear All This is very similar to a conductor (once a leading horn player and now deceased) for whom I played both as a student and in my early professional days. I myself got the rough end of his tongue many times - in particular for my experiments with 'on the leg' playing which he could not stand at any price. He conducted a very well known amateur orchestra in the north Cheshire commuter belt where many of the Manchester professional community (medical practitioners, lawyers, university lecturers, senior business people etc., etc) reside and the orchestra was made up of such people. I once went to help out with them and saw the same behaviour exhibited with which I was all too familiar in many rehearsal halls in the city. In a break, I asked the 1st horn (regarded as the leading amateur player in the Manchester area in the 60s and early 70s) why these high earning and in some cases very powerful people did not tell the maestro to " off" (choose your own expletives). He replied - "they love it - they go home elated that he has noticed them and they think that it is akin to a professional getting a drubbing from Toscanini!" And indeed, it was then a very fine amateur orchestra and the conductor never achieved the recognition that he genuinely deserved, making only one or two recordings of potboiler music and now largely forgotten by the public. I often wonder if his behaviour was partly down to frustration at seeing much less able conductors than him getting the high profile jobs. Regards Paul A. Kampen (W. Yorks UK) ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Conductors of amateur groups
In a message dated 10/10/2006 10:41:01 GMT Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: And your point is what? Wendell Rider My point is that in this particular case once the conductor was calmed down the performances suffered. I've seen similar things happen with sportsmen. Cheers, Lawrence ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Conductors etc
The tempos stay in certain relations each other
("ganzzahlig"), that´s it. Once a conductor has understood
this, he is good. Well, can you describe "clean" colours ?
Colours which you can find in nature ? If you can describe
them, you have to "transpose" that to music. That´s it. Some
have this ability by nature - a very very small minority,
others struggle the whole life to find a way, others will
never experience that phenomenon - but many get excited as
one has to be excited no matter they like the piece, the
performance or the orchestra or the picture or the movie or
the dress or -- or --- or The majority even can be
manipulated easily to be excited. But how does the majority
look inside their hearts ?
Even if we feel our performance including the conductor off
cours were wonderful, the reviews come out just so-so,
because these eunuchs did not get the message as it was not
theirs. One can live with that situation, but it is getting
worse, while the technical standard improves enormously.
===
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Linda Sherman
Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2006 2:04 PM
To: The Horn List
Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Conductors etc
hans wrote:
>What makes a good conductor
>
>
Speaking strictly as an audience member, the most reliable
factor that always seems to separate the good conductors
from the not-so-good is how they use tempo. The good ones
just seem to have the right feel for the tempo and the
general flow of the music, while the not-so-good ones just
don't get the tempo and flow right
I find this very hard to describe. Maybe someone can help
me out here.
Linda
___
post: horn@music.memphis.edu
unsubscribe or set options at
http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans%40pizka.
de
___
post: horn@music.memphis.edu
unsubscribe or set options at
http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Conductors etc
hans wrote: What makes a good conductor Speaking strictly as an audience member, the most reliable factor that always seems to separate the good conductors from the not-so-good is how they use tempo. The good ones just seem to have the right feel for the tempo and the general flow of the music, while the not-so-good ones just don't get the tempo and flow right I find this very hard to describe. Maybe someone can help me out here. Linda ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Conductors of amateur groups
Hello Wendell, Lawrence said it streight: The "conductor-pigs" do better concerts than those who just like to please the orchestra with their sweet talk. Personally, I prefer the bad people in front, as they keep all high alert & prepared, so to make best quality music. Never had any problems with those, discussions when necessary & when there was reason. These "beasts" understood it, when they knew your potentials & when you offered them high quality yourself. Thngs hey dont like: hiding behind the music stand, mediocre players, not enough character to bounce back to them. By the way, I also saw players crying when being corrected by Karl Boehm (he just wanted the solo flute play the Carmen solo another time & a bit filled with more life after he had just played it twice !) And this was not amateur but high grade professional level .. Anyway, it seems nonsense to me, if a conductor of an amateur orchestra (even he himself a "nobody" in the business) starts yelling and bawling at his players or the orchestra as a whole It just demonstrates his impotence -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Wendell Rider Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2006 10:40 AM To: horn@music.memphis.edu Subject: [Hornlist] Conductors of amateur groups On Oct 9, 2006, at 10:00 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > message: 3 > date: Mon, 9 Oct 2006 10:48:11 EDT > from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > subject: Re: [Hornlist] Conductors of amateur ensembles > > I used to help out with a local amateur orchestra, the conductor of > which was notorious - he used to yell and bawl at his players and more > than once I saw grown men and women crying behind their stands. The > concerts were terrific! > > Eventually, the management took him to one side and told him to mend > his ways and treat his players more gently. He did and everyone was > much happier. > The concerts sounded like any other amatuer orchestral concert. > > Cheers, > > Lawrence And your point is what? Wendell Rider For information about my book, "Real World Horn Playing", the Summer Seminar and Internet Horn Lessons go to my website: www.wendellworld.com ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans%40pizka. de ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Conductors of amateur ensembles
Jonathan West wrote: > > 3) Hold your instructive comments until a substantial > portion of the > > piece has been played-- better, wait until the movement is > finished. > > Then go over your long list of comments with everyone. -snip- > I don't think this is necessarily the case. I have no > objection to stops, provided that the stops are brief, and > what the conductor says is to the point. I would rather there > be a run-through towards the end of the rehearsal (if there's > time) rather than at the beginning. Going all the way through is, at least in my experience, more important the lower level of musicianship in the group relative to what needed, e.g., in difficult repertoire in my community band, the challenge is simply to make it through without the performance falling apart. For easier pieces where making it through isn't in doubt, we can afford to work more piecemeal. Just my opinion. -S- ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Conductors of amateur ensembles
> 3) Hold your instructive comments until a substantial > portion of the piece has been played-- better, wait > until the movement is finished. Then go over your > long list of comments with everyone. My biggest gripe > is aimed at conductors who stop every time they have > some comment to make-- this may be acceptable for the > pro ranks, but it is totally unacceptable for amateur > groups. Remember that amateurs are there to enjoy the > music, not to be micromanaged by a neurotic > conductor-- and there are many of these out there. I don't think this is necessarily the case. I have no objection to stops, provided that the stops are brief, and what the conductor says is to the point. I would rather there be a run-through towards the end of the rehearsal (if there's time) rather than at the beginning. Regards Jonathan West ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Conductors etc
Company politics are so important, I just can't justify wasting time on the job I was hired to do. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: horn@music.memphis.edu Sent: Mon, 9 Oct 2006 7:00 AM Subject: RE: [Hornlist] Conductors etc Two observations on what Steve said, as to not always the best getting the job, as it is in all industries/pursuits. A novel of the later part of the last Century, "On Wings of Eagles" follows the two careers of officers in the US Army. One is the perfect "careerist" seeking out the right job and getting to know the right people just to get ahead. The other is the stereotypic "professional" the man who does the right thing for the right reason, not for personal gain. The contrast in the two men reflected a lot of what goes on it large organizations, so much so that the head of the Army put the book on a required reading list. The other issue, on this side of the Atlantic at least, is the fact that conductors have to be able not only to be musicians, but must also be able to play up to the people in a community with the big purses to keep funding coming into the organization. Not only must he/she know how to get music from musicians but also work with the Board of Directors to get money out of donors to keep the orchestra solvent. I'm not sure if that is an issue in Europe. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steve Freides Sent: Sunday, October 08, 2006 9:28 AM To: 'The Horn List' Subject: RE: [Hornlist] Conductors etc Hans Pizka wrote: > I try it again to incend a fire(works) about conductors & > their means of interpretation, as the first attempt resulted > in zero effect but one single reply. Are you to cautious to > talk about conductors ? Because a few lure around in several > lists ? What to fear ? Is it impossible to talk the truth ? > Even about music ? Poor world intimidated by a handful of > people, seems not funny but rather pervers. Hans, I did not respond because I think you stated the case very well. A good conductor must posses everything you suggest and, again as you suggest, many lack that all-important ability to inspire, to embue a performance with the kind of life that will bring the best out of the players and move an audience. I will also add that I have seen conductors who err in the other direction, as it were - they attempt to emote but lack musicianship, lack an understanding of the music they are conducting, or both, and their efforts seem superficial and insubstantial as a result. Unfortunately, in conducting more than in most other areas of musical endeavor, talent, hard work, and good results do not always lead to success. At least it seems this way to me - in a blind audition behind a curtain, the best player should prevail, but conductors are hired by much less direct processes. Because I went through music school as a conductor, I have had the opportunity to watch the careers of several of my colleagues, all of whom shall remain nameless here; suffice it to say that I have seen at least one very talented, hard-working individual achieve a career but only relatively minor success, while another who is a charlatan by measure of almost everyone who has either known him or played under him has risen to the top ranks of the profession, achieving his success, so far as I have been able to determine, by other means. Such is the way life works sometimes, I'm sad to say. Disclaimer, lest someone think my rant is some sort of "sour grapes" - I went through school as a choral conducting major with no aspirations of a career as a conductor. I am a theory and ear-training specialist and taught those subjects at the college level even before my doctorate was completed. Going through college as a conducting major was much more interesting than doing it as a theory major - I got to conduct a recital for my doctoral degree instead of having to write a thesis - how good is _that_? :) I have done one conducting engagement per year for the last several decades, a small professional choir hired for the Jewish High Holy Days (just finished) at a large congregation in suburban Philadelphia. I just finished my 27th year as conductor and every year feel completely humbled by the task of doing everything within my power at rehearsals and performances to make the music the most inspirational and moving it can be. I don't ever feel I've "gotten it right" but I find the process of trying to improve my own ability to, in turn, improve the performances a noble pursuit and one I look forward to each year. -S- > What makes a good conductor Seems an interesting > question. Well, most conductors have a very limited means of > expresions or let us better say "tools". They know s
RE: [Hornlist] Conductors of amateur ensembles
Does not only apply to amateur orchestra. Great "pigs" in front of the orchestra (just reminding a world famous conductor who looked as his musicians in the manner of a rattle snake) often make the greatest concerts. Not so nice truth, but good for the music & not so good for the nerves of many musicians. Sorry, I never had any great problems with such supposed monsters, just some very little discussions - which I won. = -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, October 09, 2006 3:48 PM To: horn@music.memphis.edu Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Conductors of amateur ensembles I used to help out with a local amateur orchestra, the conductor of which was notorious - he used to yell and bawl at his players and more than once I saw grown men and women crying behind their stands. The concerts were terrific! Eventually, the management took him to one side and told him to mend his ways and treat his players more gently. He did and everyone was much happier. The concerts sounded like any other amatuer orchestral concert. Cheers, Lawrence ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans%40pizka. de ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Conductors of amateur ensembles
That´s what I said allready in my letter. Critizism must be positive & not destructive. A conductor who yells to the orchestra or at a certain player, will lose his last value the very same moment. And for the amateurs: less (challenging) is often more (quality) and thus more enjoyment. -Original Message- < In other words, a professional *attitude* needs to be brought to rehearsal and performance irrespective of the quality of the players. Regards Jonathan West> ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans%40pizka. de ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Conductors of amateur ensembles
Bill Gross wrote: > It's all about leadership, isn't it? Some leaders can be > hated yet really get the best from those he/she leads. > Others can be very popular and get the best from those he/she > leads. Others who scream and yell come across as martinets > and others who are friendly get just mediocre performances. > It's got to be more than just being "nice" or just being "demanding." I recall taking the class in Group Dynamics in undergraduate school. The format was "t group" or "training group". The instructor sat and did absolutely nothing, leaving us to work out things for ourselves. We all got very angry at the instructor for not doing anything but eventually a leadership structure emerged within our class, and for the last few weeks, we had a more normal class, discussing what had happened in the prior weeks and discussing types of leaders as well. I remember "autocratic" and "democratic" as being two types of leader, the former taking charge by force of will and personality, the latter facilitating consensus among the members of the group. Which is my long-winded way of saying that, in my opinion, you raised a very good point, Bill. :) -S- > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On > Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Monday, October 09, 2006 9:48 AM > To: horn@music.memphis.edu > Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Conductors of amateur ensembles > > I used to help out with a local amateur orchestra, the > conductor of which was notorious - he used to yell and bawl > at his players and more than once I saw grown men and women > crying behind their stands. The concerts were terrific! > > Eventually, the management took him to one side and told him > to mend his ways and treat his players more gently. He did > and everyone was much happier. > The concerts sounded like any other amatuer orchestral concert. > > Cheers, > > Lawrence > ___ > post: horn@music.memphis.edu > unsubscribe or set options at > http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/bgross%40airmail.net > > > ___ > post: horn@music.memphis.edu > unsubscribe or set options at > http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/steve%40fridays > computer.com > ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Conductors of amateur ensembles
Lawrence Yates wrote: > I used to help out with a local amateur orchestra, the > conductor of which was notorious - he used to yell and bawl > at his players and more than once I saw grown men and women > crying behind their stands. The concerts were terrific! > > Eventually, the management took him to one side and told him > to mend his ways and treat his players more gently. He did > and everyone was much happier. > The concerts sounded like any other amatuer orchestral concert. "Batti, batti ..." There was a time when men treated their wives this way, too, and parents, their children. That sort of thing doesn't fly as well as it once used to. I, for one, will accept the lesser performance quality as a trade-off I can live with. -S- ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Conductors of amateur ensembles
It's all about leadership, isn't it? Some leaders can be hated yet really get the best from those he/she leads. Others can be very popular and get the best from those he/she leads. Others who scream and yell come across as martinets and others who are friendly get just mediocre performances. It's got to be more than just being "nice" or just being "demanding." -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, October 09, 2006 9:48 AM To: horn@music.memphis.edu Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Conductors of amateur ensembles I used to help out with a local amateur orchestra, the conductor of which was notorious - he used to yell and bawl at his players and more than once I saw grown men and women crying behind their stands. The concerts were terrific! Eventually, the management took him to one side and told him to mend his ways and treat his players more gently. He did and everyone was much happier. The concerts sounded like any other amatuer orchestral concert. Cheers, Lawrence ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/bgross%40airmail.net ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Conductors of amateur ensembles
I used to help out with a local amateur orchestra, the conductor of which was notorious - he used to yell and bawl at his players and more than once I saw grown men and women crying behind their stands. The concerts were terrific! Eventually, the management took him to one side and told him to mend his ways and treat his players more gently. He did and everyone was much happier. The concerts sounded like any other amatuer orchestral concert. Cheers, Lawrence ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Conductors of amateur ensembles
In my view, many of the same characteristics are needed for a conductor of amateur groups as for professional, but perhaps not in such concentrated form. One key difference is that amateurs play for enjoyment, and if they stop enjoying themselves they will stop playing or go elsewhere. That means that the conductor of an amateur group has to go about his business more by encouragement. That doesn't mean avoiding criticism, but concentrating the criticism on a specific point rather than on the player in general, and where possible asking for something to be played differently without implying it was wrong before - after all there are many different approaches to music making! I have no time for amateur conductors (or amateur groups for that matter) who aren't genuinely trying to produce the very best performance they are capable of. I would much rather play with a group of lesser ability that is trying to improve than a better group that has become lazy and complacent. In other words, a professional *attitude* needs to be brought to rehearsal and performance irrespective of the quality of the players. Regards Jonathan West ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Conductors of amateur ensembles
The opposite side of Han's coin is the conductor of amateur groups that is too willing to pass over something that doesn't sound right. I consider it a worst sin for a conductor of an amateur group to say "something doesn't sound right -fix it" rather than say nothing at all. Picking up on Hans comment about those who have achieved a modicum of success in their "civil" profession, the smart ones leave that outside the rehearsal hall. When we pick up our horns, we are musicians and part of a group interested in making music. Going back to my first comment. A conductor who tells you "something's wrong" but offers no further comment is not being honest with the group. The conductor should at least say, "the chord doesn't sound right." Better yet, spend some time working on that chord. Bleh -muddle comments above. On to other things hope you all can sort through it. Better yet just delete it. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of hans Sent: Monday, October 09, 2006 4:17 AM To: 'The Horn List' Subject: RE: [Hornlist] Conductors of amateur ensembles As I conduct an amateur group by myself since many years (even a horn ensemble) I may add a few words here: These preconditions of handing out the music in advance etc. is just normal & we will not talk about these self-evident things. The first thing & most important for any conductor is it, to make the players enthusiastic by giving them the right impetus. Some players might be excellent performers in their "civil" profession, so they are not used to be corrected. If I stop during the rehearsal to improve things, I do not do it just to point at a certain player or to blame that player. I just want things work better. So we work pieces through step by step. Digest it while we relax, but concentrate again & play it through again, to correct another spot after that. Folks, many of you might not have been exposed to a regular professional orchestra life. We do not just play through the pieces to perform the big picture. We work hard even in the "microcosm", understood ? The microcosm here are the several phrases or parts of a movement, which have to be worked out. And this requires concentrated work, it also requires critic by the person in front of us. This critic has to be taken positively. It is not enough, that amateur groups like to enjoy making music. That is by far not enough. Surely, one must not expect they play as good as the philharmonic, but they must play reasonably. To achieve that, the conductor (if he or she is good & just the first among equals !!) has to eliminate the weak spots. He can do that only, if he notice them & if he corrects them on the spot. This means stopping here, stopping there. So he will get the piece together. Well a first "run through regardless mistakes, insulted, killed or lost members" should be done at the first rehearsal, so the conductor knows where to work. After all is worked out in a movement, a run through will follow, initiating more work the next rehearsal & some homework. What most of the amateurs desire (just enjoying music making), does not work in the way they want it. All will end in chaos & frustration. If the conductor starts working really, frustration will come up also, but will disappear & give way to enjoyment as soon as the things get in order. Rehearsing does not mean get through the piece, play it through again & again with the same mistakes over & over. This applies to most students also. Concentrate your effort to those things you cannot do well, things needing improvement. Watch how you will enjoy then. Very differently. == -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Larry Jellison Sent: Monday, October 09, 2006 7:57 AM To: horn@music.memphis.edu Subject: [Hornlist] Conductors of amateur ensembles Now to take the subject down a few common denominator levels, to the ranks of the uneducated and definitely unpaid-- thoughts on conductors of adult amateur groups. There is much that could be discussed here among those who chose to think about it at least a little. Amateurs play in ensembles for a variety of reasons, for differing goals. Most want to improve; most want the rehearsals and concerts to be enjoyable. I think these are among the most common and most important goals of amateurs. I am tired of looking around at faces in groups and seeing glum and frustrated expressions. The conductor is the one best positioned to change this undesirable condition. To cut this short-- conductors need to do the following. 1) Set clear expectations for performance. Hand out the music ahead of time and tell musicians to l
RE: [Hornlist] Conductors etc
Two observations on what Steve said, as to not always the best getting the job, as it is in all industries/pursuits. A novel of the later part of the last Century, "On Wings of Eagles" follows the two careers of officers in the US Army. One is the perfect "careerist" seeking out the right job and getting to know the right people just to get ahead. The other is the stereotypic "professional" the man who does the right thing for the right reason, not for personal gain. The contrast in the two men reflected a lot of what goes on it large organizations, so much so that the head of the Army put the book on a required reading list. The other issue, on this side of the Atlantic at least, is the fact that conductors have to be able not only to be musicians, but must also be able to play up to the people in a community with the big purses to keep funding coming into the organization. Not only must he/she know how to get music from musicians but also work with the Board of Directors to get money out of donors to keep the orchestra solvent. I'm not sure if that is an issue in Europe. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steve Freides Sent: Sunday, October 08, 2006 9:28 AM To: 'The Horn List' Subject: RE: [Hornlist] Conductors etc Hans Pizka wrote: > I try it again to incend a fire(works) about conductors & > their means of interpretation, as the first attempt resulted > in zero effect but one single reply. Are you to cautious to > talk about conductors ? Because a few lure around in several > lists ? What to fear ? Is it impossible to talk the truth ? > Even about music ? Poor world intimidated by a handful of > people, seems not funny but rather pervers. Hans, I did not respond because I think you stated the case very well. A good conductor must posses everything you suggest and, again as you suggest, many lack that all-important ability to inspire, to embue a performance with the kind of life that will bring the best out of the players and move an audience. I will also add that I have seen conductors who err in the other direction, as it were - they attempt to emote but lack musicianship, lack an understanding of the music they are conducting, or both, and their efforts seem superficial and insubstantial as a result. Unfortunately, in conducting more than in most other areas of musical endeavor, talent, hard work, and good results do not always lead to success. At least it seems this way to me - in a blind audition behind a curtain, the best player should prevail, but conductors are hired by much less direct processes. Because I went through music school as a conductor, I have had the opportunity to watch the careers of several of my colleagues, all of whom shall remain nameless here; suffice it to say that I have seen at least one very talented, hard-working individual achieve a career but only relatively minor success, while another who is a charlatan by measure of almost everyone who has either known him or played under him has risen to the top ranks of the profession, achieving his success, so far as I have been able to determine, by other means. Such is the way life works sometimes, I'm sad to say. Disclaimer, lest someone think my rant is some sort of "sour grapes" - I went through school as a choral conducting major with no aspirations of a career as a conductor. I am a theory and ear-training specialist and taught those subjects at the college level even before my doctorate was completed. Going through college as a conducting major was much more interesting than doing it as a theory major - I got to conduct a recital for my doctoral degree instead of having to write a thesis - how good is _that_? :) I have done one conducting engagement per year for the last several decades, a small professional choir hired for the Jewish High Holy Days (just finished) at a large congregation in suburban Philadelphia. I just finished my 27th year as conductor and every year feel completely humbled by the task of doing everything within my power at rehearsals and performances to make the music the most inspirational and moving it can be. I don't ever feel I've "gotten it right" but I find the process of trying to improve my own ability to, in turn, improve the performances a noble pursuit and one I look forward to each year. -S- > What makes a good conductor Seems an interesting > question. Well, most conductors have a very limited means of > expresions or let us better say "tools". They know slow-fast, > loud-soft, hard-soft, short-long. But this could be done by a > programmed machine also. Just think about an electric > programmable jumping jack. I might names this way of > conducting "the bi-dimensional-music-commanding". > > But there is more, like bringing the tempo
RE: [Hornlist] Conductors of amateur ensembles
As I conduct an amateur group by myself since many years (even a horn ensemble) I may add a few words here: These preconditions of handing out the music in advance etc. is just normal & we will not talk about these self-evident things. The first thing & most important for any conductor is it, to make the players enthusiastic by giving them the right impetus. Some players might be excellent performers in their "civil" profession, so they are not used to be corrected. If I stop during the rehearsal to improve things, I do not do it just to point at a certain player or to blame that player. I just want things work better. So we work pieces through step by step. Digest it while we relax, but concentrate again & play it through again, to correct another spot after that. Folks, many of you might not have been exposed to a regular professional orchestra life. We do not just play through the pieces to perform the big picture. We work hard even in the "microcosm", understood ? The microcosm here are the several phrases or parts of a movement, which have to be worked out. And this requires concentrated work, it also requires critic by the person in front of us. This critic has to be taken positively. It is not enough, that amateur groups like to enjoy making music. That is by far not enough. Surely, one must not expect they play as good as the philharmonic, but they must play reasonably. To achieve that, the conductor (if he or she is good & just the first among equals !!) has to eliminate the weak spots. He can do that only, if he notice them & if he corrects them on the spot. This means stopping here, stopping there. So he will get the piece together. Well a first "run through regardless mistakes, insulted, killed or lost members" should be done at the first rehearsal, so the conductor knows where to work. After all is worked out in a movement, a run through will follow, initiating more work the next rehearsal & some homework. What most of the amateurs desire (just enjoying music making), does not work in the way they want it. All will end in chaos & frustration. If the conductor starts working really, frustration will come up also, but will disappear & give way to enjoyment as soon as the things get in order. Rehearsing does not mean get through the piece, play it through again & again with the same mistakes over & over. This applies to most students also. Concentrate your effort to those things you cannot do well, things needing improvement. Watch how you will enjoy then. Very differently. == -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Larry Jellison Sent: Monday, October 09, 2006 7:57 AM To: horn@music.memphis.edu Subject: [Hornlist] Conductors of amateur ensembles Now to take the subject down a few common denominator levels, to the ranks of the uneducated and definitely unpaid-- thoughts on conductors of adult amateur groups. There is much that could be discussed here among those who chose to think about it at least a little. Amateurs play in ensembles for a variety of reasons, for differing goals. Most want to improve; most want the rehearsals and concerts to be enjoyable. I think these are among the most common and most important goals of amateurs. I am tired of looking around at faces in groups and seeing glum and frustrated expressions. The conductor is the one best positioned to change this undesirable condition. To cut this short-- conductors need to do the following. 1) Set clear expectations for performance. Hand out the music ahead of time and tell musicians to learn their parts in their own practice time. Give musicians a heads up of which pieces will be worked on at the next rehearsal-- announce at the previous rehearsal or send out a group e-mail. 2) Know the score yourself; know your interpretation. Nothing is as frustrating to the group as being directed by a conductor who is lost or is studying the score during rehearsal. 3) Hold your instructive comments until a substantial portion of the piece has been played-- better, wait until the movement is finished. Then go over your long list of comments with everyone. My biggest gripe is aimed at conductors who stop every time they have some comment to make-- this may be acceptable for the pro ranks, but it is totally unacceptable for amateur groups. Remember that amateurs are there to enjoy the music, not to be micromanaged by a neurotic conductor-- and there are many of these out there. 4) The conductor at rehearsal should bring the ensemble together to play as a unity, to bring intensity to the music beyond the mere mechanics. The key awareness issue for clear-headed ensemble amateurs is -- are we having fun? Regards, Larry __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http:
Re: [Hornlist] Conductors etc
Hans, We agree they were not verbose I said "Leinsdorf, Solti and Guilini none of which in my experience in rehearsal were colorful or verbose." I used the word NONE. I used them as an example and purposefully excluded Bernstein because I took your initial remarks Which were; Vocables as "lovely, blooming, heroic, thundering, not audible but noticeable, fanatic, fantastic, full of love, glooming like rock coal, poisonous, destructing, like clouds before hailstorms, radiating sunny, heating up like a hord of huns, icy, sound of glass, static, desperately sad, full of heavenly joy, etc." - these would be the words we musicians would understand & interpret the right way. To mean verbose. That was a mistake which I now see from your response. What they say is important without doubt but great conductors are passionate but to the point they can say the same thing 100 different ways to get the sound or effect they want (also an attribute of a great teacher). But no matter how great a conductor without an orchestra to conduct we have no music and I will reiterate that great conductors have an unspoken respect that goes both ways. Debbie ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Conductors etc
But unknown in this hemisphere. Steve, you said everything perfectly, but it seems hard to get this understood by the majority. Playing on a first chair in a wind section or playing as a soloist or chamber musician requires the same skill as you just described. If you are the leader of that particular group (chamber music) you need all these requisites too. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steve Freides Sent: Sunday, October 08, 2006 6:56 PM To: 'The Horn List' Subject: RE: [Hornlist] Conductors etc Hans Pizka wrote: -snip- > ... The > greatest advantage of these great conductors is their ability to > LISTEN, to listen what´s coming from the various players in the pit or > on stage and just use what´s being offered to them or even fine tuning > the one or the other phrase or voice. As a conducting student, I found this process the heart of the matter but, while easy enough to describe, very difficult to do well. One must learn to conduct what one wants musically, to ask for what one wants with words, but to do that well _and_ to listen carefully to what's being played - that is a real multi-tasking skill. Those who can only listen and critique are coaches, not conductors. My favorite definition of musical talent comes from theorist Carl Schachter. I cannot quote him exactly, but if one knows a bit about Schenkerian analysis, Carl's speciality, one can appreciate his comment that while many people might be able to manage the "big picture" (emotion, character, style, history, etc.), the smallest details, or the levels in between (e.g., phrasing), the truly talented at music manage _all_ these things simultaneously, and it is that simultaneous attention to the big picture, the smallest detail, and everything in between that makes for a great performance. Carl studied with, and later coauthored a theory text with Felix Saltzer who, in turn, worked directly with Heinrich Schenker. And let me hasten to add that Carl is a delightful, insightful teacher, a wonderfully musical pianist, and always a interesting person to be around. -S- ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Conductors etc
Hans Pizka wrote: -snip- > ... The > greatest advantage of these great conductors is their ability > to LISTEN, to listen what´s coming from the various players > in the pit or on stage and just use what´s being offered to > them or even fine tuning the one or the other phrase or voice. As a conducting student, I found this process the heart of the matter but, while easy enough to describe, very difficult to do well. One must learn to conduct what one wants musically, to ask for what one wants with words, but to do that well _and_ to listen carefully to what's being played - that is a real multi-tasking skill. Those who can only listen and critique are coaches, not conductors. My favorite definition of musical talent comes from theorist Carl Schachter. I cannot quote him exactly, but if one knows a bit about Schenkerian analysis, Carl's speciality, one can appreciate his comment that while many people might be able to manage the "big picture" (emotion, character, style, history, etc.), the smallest details, or the levels in between (e.g., phrasing), the truly talented at music manage _all_ these things simultaneously, and it is that simultaneous attention to the big picture, the smallest detail, and everything in between that makes for a great performance. Carl studied with, and later coauthored a theory text with Felix Saltzer who, in turn, worked directly with Heinrich Schenker. And let me hasten to add that Carl is a delightful, insightful teacher, a wonderfully musical pianist, and always a interesting person to be around. -S- > > > == > > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On > Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Sunday, October 08, 2006 5:05 PM > To: horn@music.memphis.edu > Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Conductors etc > > Hans, I agree conceptually, but let's talk about an older > generation of conductors so as not to offend, Leinsdorf, > Solti and Guilini none of which in my experience in rehearsal > were colorful or verbose. All were passionate all could move > you and the audience. So I would suggest that there is an > unspoken chemistry between conductor and orchestra and an > unspoken respect that goes both ways that also comes into play. > > Debbie > ___ > post: horn@music.memphis.edu > unsubscribe or set options at > http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans%40pizka. > de > > ___ > post: horn@music.memphis.edu > unsubscribe or set options at > http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/steve%40fridays > computer.com > ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Conductors etc
Debbie, I have no experience with Giulini, but did several concerts with Leinsdorf & Solti. So I cannot agree with you, that they were not verbose, in contrary, both could explain very well how they wanted the things, very illustrative indeed. Well, we had no problems to understand Leinsdorfs fine nuances in the language as we all spokethe same language as mother language, which might make a big, a very big difference. And Solti, I think that German was also his second mother language. He was the boss of my orchestra after WW2. You should have heard him explaining R.Strauss´ Don Juan. Never heard it explained better. Or watch the "Golden Ring" documentary with the VPO. But you need to understand the fine nuances in German. Or Bernstein ? Just two words explained everything. If the right words are used, just few words will make it. And these calibers were full of fun. Fischer-Dieskau once asked Klemperer if he could attend one of his concerts, but Klemperer asked why. I will conduct Schuberts Great ! Let me check my calender (Klemperer), yes, yes, I might be free that night, but, but I have to attend George Solties "Liederabend", sorry. Sawallisch knew when & where & why singer errors could happen during a performance, but he could repair them BEFORE they happen. I have witnessed that on many occasions. Kleiber did not help, - speaking of Carlos -, but he studied the things very well for himself first, even inserting special instructions into the several parts by himself, - and he could talk colours enormously, even his German vocabulary was very short, but he had just the right terms. Watch his Fledermaus, Woyzzeck, Rosenkavalier, Tristan, Freischuetz, Othello (nearly all his repertory regarding opera), oops, he did two Bohemes & one Madame Buterfly with us without rehearsal. You could read everything from his face (I played both Bohemes). Another performance (La Traviata) was cancelled due to a singer illness (the tenor had to leave the stage & the famous aria was jumped, when we did the first of the La Traviatas in that series) and Kleiber asked for a change in the program, Pavarotti was in town and sang Rodolfo, can you imagine that excitement. The audience really boiled but came to tears (no exaggeration !) & we too. We were so moved. It was the music, the great singers AND Carlos Kleiber. Muti uses a thin vocabulary but all words are placed right, and his great discipline when conducting. The greatest advantage of these great conductors is their ability to LISTEN, to listen what´s coming from the various players in the pit or on stage and just use what´s being offered to them or even fine tuning the one or the other phrase or voice. == -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, October 08, 2006 5:05 PM To: horn@music.memphis.edu Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Conductors etc Hans, I agree conceptually, but let's talk about an older generation of conductors so as not to offend, Leinsdorf, Solti and Guilini none of which in my experience in rehearsal were colorful or verbose. All were passionate all could move you and the audience. So I would suggest that there is an unspoken chemistry between conductor and orchestra and an unspoken respect that goes both ways that also comes into play. Debbie ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans%40pizka. de ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Conductors etc
Hello Steve, then you know perfectly whom I had in mind when I mentioned the rare hidden gems, - people like you, people who love the music and people whos heart beats at the right place & in the right rhythm. There are a lot of conductor careers, jump started careers, promoted by a clever crew of public relation people. And they get their 20%, so they push the salaries up. But some conductors cannot be sold in certain countries - dont think rassistic, as the Arabs do not listen to our music and special the fanatics refuse to attend or allow concerts (see Taliban etc.). Some conductors cannot be sold because they have not any market value there no matter how much their value might be in your or in my country. Some of these pushed figures fall on their nose sooner or later (ask them what note you have to play in a Verdi opera - see transposition to Ab-basso ???), but some get along with the musicians in a clever friendly way, absorbing any given information by the musicians, capable to use these info for themselves & their conducting, well, these might make their way up & are most welcome to us. Interesting might be, that a lot of very successful and good conductors are jewish. Why ? Jews had to assimilate themselves everywhere they went or where they were pushed to. They spoke two languages from the beginning (Jiddish & the local language). Language skill sharpens the brain. Assimilating requires to be very sensitive. All prerequisites for that job infront of the orchestra. And, many jewish families keep traditions of music making themselves at home over the centuries (at least playing the piano). And special the German jews, they kept the German culture high, kept the music tradition very high, and literature - even in the diaspora. But for the others, dont fraternisate with them. If they make you trouble you honestly dont deserve, watch for their defects & never help them if they get in trouble. Play as they conduct (wordly !), so they will disappear after a while. == -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steve Freides Sent: Sunday, October 08, 2006 3:28 PM To: 'The Horn List' Subject: RE: [Hornlist] Conductors etc Hans, I did not respond because I think you stated the case very well. A good conductor must posses everything you suggest and, again as you suggest, many lack that all-important ability to inspire, to embue a performance with the kind of life that will bring the best out of the players and move an audience. I will also add that I have seen conductors who err in the other direction, as it were - they attempt to emote but lack musicianship, lack an understanding of the music they are conducting, or both, and their efforts seem superficial and insubstantial as a result. Unfortunately, in conducting more than in most other areas of musical endeavor, talent, hard work, and good results do not always lead to success. At least it seems this way to me - in a blind audition behind a curtain, the best player should prevail, but conductors are hired by much less direct processes. Because I went through music school as a conductor, I have had the opportunity to watch the careers of several of my colleagues, all of whom shall remain nameless here; suffice it to say that I have seen at least one very talented, hard-working individual achieve a career but only relatively minor success, while another who is a charlatan by measure of almost everyone who has either known him or played under him has risen to the top ranks of the profession, achieving his success, so far as I have been able to determine, by other means. Such is the way life works sometimes, I'm sad to say. Disclaimer, lest someone think my rant is some sort of "sour grapes" - I went through school as a choral conducting major with no aspirations of a career as a conductor. I am a theory and ear-training specialist and taught those subjects at the college level even before my doctorate was completed. Going through college as a conducting major was much more interesting than doing it as a theory major - I got to conduct a recital for my doctoral degree instead of having to write a thesis - how good is _that_? :) I have done one conducting engagement per year for the last several decades, a small professional choir hired for the Jewish High Holy Days (just finished) at a large congregation in suburban Philadelphia. I just finished my 27th year as conductor and every year feel completely humbled by the task of doing everything within my power at rehearsals and performances to make the music the most inspirational and moving it can be. I don't ever feel I've "gotten it right" but I find the process of trying to improve my own ability to, in turn, improve the perf
Re: [Hornlist] Conductors etc
Hans, I agree conceptually, but let's talk about an older generation of conductors so as not to offend, Leinsdorf, Solti and Guilini none of which in my experience in rehearsal were colorful or verbose. All were passionate all could move you and the audience. So I would suggest that there is an unspoken chemistry between conductor and orchestra and an unspoken respect that goes both ways that also comes into play. Debbie ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Conductors etc
Hans Pizka wrote: > I try it again to incend a fire(works) about conductors & > their means of interpretation, as the first attempt resulted > in zero effect but one single reply. Are you to cautious to > talk about conductors ? Because a few lure around in several > lists ? What to fear ? Is it impossible to talk the truth ? > Even about music ? Poor world intimidated by a handful of > people, seems not funny but rather pervers. Hans, I did not respond because I think you stated the case very well. A good conductor must posses everything you suggest and, again as you suggest, many lack that all-important ability to inspire, to embue a performance with the kind of life that will bring the best out of the players and move an audience. I will also add that I have seen conductors who err in the other direction, as it were - they attempt to emote but lack musicianship, lack an understanding of the music they are conducting, or both, and their efforts seem superficial and insubstantial as a result. Unfortunately, in conducting more than in most other areas of musical endeavor, talent, hard work, and good results do not always lead to success. At least it seems this way to me - in a blind audition behind a curtain, the best player should prevail, but conductors are hired by much less direct processes. Because I went through music school as a conductor, I have had the opportunity to watch the careers of several of my colleagues, all of whom shall remain nameless here; suffice it to say that I have seen at least one very talented, hard-working individual achieve a career but only relatively minor success, while another who is a charlatan by measure of almost everyone who has either known him or played under him has risen to the top ranks of the profession, achieving his success, so far as I have been able to determine, by other means. Such is the way life works sometimes, I'm sad to say. Disclaimer, lest someone think my rant is some sort of "sour grapes" - I went through school as a choral conducting major with no aspirations of a career as a conductor. I am a theory and ear-training specialist and taught those subjects at the college level even before my doctorate was completed. Going through college as a conducting major was much more interesting than doing it as a theory major - I got to conduct a recital for my doctoral degree instead of having to write a thesis - how good is _that_? :) I have done one conducting engagement per year for the last several decades, a small professional choir hired for the Jewish High Holy Days (just finished) at a large congregation in suburban Philadelphia. I just finished my 27th year as conductor and every year feel completely humbled by the task of doing everything within my power at rehearsals and performances to make the music the most inspirational and moving it can be. I don't ever feel I've "gotten it right" but I find the process of trying to improve my own ability to, in turn, improve the performances a noble pursuit and one I look forward to each year. -S- > What makes a good conductor Seems an interesting > question. Well, most conductors have a very limited means of > expresions or let us better say "tools". They know slow-fast, > loud-soft, hard-soft, short-long. But this could be done by a > programmed machine also. Just think about an electric > programmable jumping jack. I might names this way of > conducting "the bi-dimensional-music-commanding". > > But there is more, like bringing the tempos into a certain > mathematical relation (plain numbers, no fractions), work out > the phrases set by the composer, balance the dynamics within > the sections & between the different instrument groups to > form a unified sound. This relates to all kind of music. Keep > single members or sections from exaggerating their dynamic. > Keep sections or the whole at lower dynamic, so the different > solos can shine. All this can be learned or acquired by > listening to many performances conducted by well acknowledged > maestros. Together with the first paragraph requirements we > could name this now "three-dimensional-music-commanding". > > But there is one dimension still left, the dimension which is > the most necessary at all levels: expression, expression that > does not just make an audience excited, but more, make it > moved. There could come excitement in the audience & within > the orchestra because of the technical brilliance & the > perfection of sound & execution. But still there´s nobody > moved besides the conductor himself perhaps. > > How to achieve that most important goal ? The fourth > dimension. Using the right vocables during the rehearsals, > preconditioned everything else is right. The richer the > vocabulary of the conductor, the richer the colours of the > orchestra and the richer the performance. Vocables as > "lovely, blooming, heroic, thundering, not audible but > noticeable, fanatic, fantasti
Re: [Hornlist] conductors
That is an interesting question...who are these 'gems' that you are thinking of? Simon Rattle had a great reputation when with City of Birmingham...does he enjoy the same in his years at Berlin? Thanks, Fred - Original Message From: hans <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: The Horn List Sent: Friday, October 6, 2006 9:51:02 AM Subject: [Hornlist] conductors What makes a good conductor Seems an interesting question. Well, most conductors have a very limited means of expresions or let us better say "tools". They know slow-fast, loud-soft, hard-soft, short-long. But this could be done by a programmed machine also. Just think about an electric programmable jumping jack. I might names this way of conducting "the bi-dimensional-music-commanding". But there is more, like bringing the tempos into a certain mathematical relation (plain numbers, no fractions), work out the phrases set by the composer, balance the dynamics within the sections & between the different instrument groups to form a unified sound. This relates to all kind of music. Keep single members or sections from exaggerating their dynamic. Keep sections or the whole at lower dynamic, so the different solos can shine. All this can be learned or acquired by listening to many performances conducted by well acknowledged maestros. Together with the first paragraph requirements we could name this now "three-dimensional-music-commanding". But there is one dimension still left, the dimension which is the most necessary at all levels: expression, expression that does not just make an audience excited, but more, make it moved. There could come excitement in the audience & within the orchestra because of the technical brilliance & the perfection of sound & execution. But still there´s nobody moved besides the conductor himself perhaps. How to achieve that most important goal ? The fourth dimension. Using the right vocables during the rehearsals, preconditioned everything else is right. The richer the vocabulary of the conductor, the richer the colours of the orchestra and the richer the performance. Vocables as "lovely, blooming, heroic, thundering, not audible but noticeable, fanatic, fantastic, full of love, glooming like rock coal, poisonous, destructing, like clouds before hailstorms, radiating sunny, heating up like a hord of huns, icy, sound of glass, static, desperately sad, full of heavenly joy, etc." - these would be the words we musicians would understand & interpret the right way. But this requires conductors, human conductors, musical & super sensitive characters, which are too rare today within the list of travelling stars. It seems too often, that the only teaching they received was counting $$$. But there are some gems left, fortunately, but most of them will never get any chance to explore his or her potentials with an orchestra of high class. This is the reason, why some provincial orchestras can do a superb performance once a while, which would blame the superstars. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/fbaucom%40sbcglobal.net ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] conductors
Hi all, If you are interested in reading about conductors and how they (often) behave, you should read this book by Norman Lebrecht: "The Maestro Myth". He takes the gloss off most of them. Per Ottar - Original Message - From: "Hans.Pizka" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "'The Horn List'" Sent: Monday, May 08, 2006 4:09 PM Subject: [Hornlist] conductors Dear friends from the amateur league, You have no idea about what happen during rehearsals at high professional level, absolute no idea, sorry. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] conductors
Interesting. . . I do note that one major symphony in the US has made it the business policy not to hire "top of the line" conductors. They look for a conductor that can work well with the orchestra to produce solid music, but not demand so much money that it diverts funds from musicians and other programs. And the obligatory, oh by the way, I think most lots of folks on the amateur side are in agreement with your statement about following the conductor in what ever group we are members. It's just nice to have a place to come it and "vent frustration" over the foibles that a particular conductor visits upon us. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Hans.Pizka Sent: Monday, May 08, 2006 9:09 AM To: 'The Horn List' Subject: [Hornlist] conductors Dear friends from the amateur league, You have no idea about what happen during rehearsals at high professional level, absolute no idea, sorry. Even with the greatest & world famous maestros (Sawallisch, Mehta, Muti, Masur, Boehm, etc.) we just played half a movement & started plucking it to pieces. They stop if the balance is not right, if the expression is not what they expected or wanted, for certain accent markings, dots, fp, sfz, how strong or how soft they wanted it ever. O.k. next sixty measures (or not) & the same procedure & forward again. So to make two movements the first rehearsal & playing these streight once (perhaps) & if they are not long as a Bruckner Adagio movement. We get them to play again in the public dress rehearsal, but even then they will interrupt if something must be fixed (or not). This "or not" is very important, as even these calibres are happy, if we put all together during the concert. But this first concert is compareable to a seat in a formula One car & driving at the course of Nuerburg or Spa. Often these conductors seem to have rehearsed another piece than they conduct at the concert - and the orchestra has to fix that instantly WITHOUT any complain. We are paid for it. But admitted, the maestros are overpaid in a really sick manner. If their fee goes into 50.000 or up to 100.000 USD, not per month or year, but per CONCERT, per EVENING, plus all the extras 1st class flight, 1st class * accomodation & all bills paid & a luxury car with driver at disposition (the maestros above did not use it, nor were their fees in this region except one of them, but he drives by himself), this is more than sick. Many of them are made up stars (none of the gentlemen mentioned), special these 2nd or 3rd or 4rth class made up stars, not capable playing a single instrument not even the piano. These are the worst, but you can fool them more easily. And they fall into the traps, but without any effect. And they can be dangerous, very intrigant & dangerous. That picking on the musicians is necessary to achieve a high class result. But , as we say "the tone makes the music", it all depends how these maestros do it. I know some of them, who show their great respect for the corporation (orchestra) even by how they are dressed at the rehearsal. They are very demanding, but never insulting, never blaming single players. They have great respect for the integrity of every player. They never "step on your cock" (slang). An this is very pleasing. We do all for the success with them together. But there are also some self made tyrrants, whom we let fire up to the last shot, - and do all with passive resistance, means playing everything correct, but correct only. The audience will understand that & these maestros will never come back again. But, sorry, this is not your business at amateur or even very advanced amateur level, where a greater part of the musician is still "on fight" with their instrument or with the music. Here you have not to take every correction by the "commander" (conductor, concertmaster, leader of the section) as a personal insult. They give their best to fix a good performance together & you should better follow them, instead putting every word on the "gold wages". As said by other before, music is not the place for democracy. It is a place of leadership & teamwork. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/bgross%40airmail.net ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Conductors
I frequently cross over to the dark side and it has made me a better hornist. Carl Bangs ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Conductors
I've held back as long as I can, but no more Mister nice guy. I am a horn player AND a conductor, and proud of it. In fact, I enjoy the conducting more than the playing, but God has been kind, and at age 59 I can still pop out those high e's above the staff. I'm good to the bottom of the horn, too. I play first in two local orchestras and one community band. I also play first in the area's local professional summer band, and have for more than 25 years. >From what people tell me, I'm an excellent conductor. In fact, last month I was rehired for next season in front of the orchestra at our dress rehearsal for the final concert of this season. I not only got a standing ovation from the orchestra, but our audience at that concert was the largest in the seventeen year history of the orchestra. Well over 1,000 people. (Pat myself on back, here). I also have been an arranger for more than thirty years, along with the various orchestras and bands I have conducted during that time. I've even conducted at IHS workshops. (Oh horror of horrors!) So.What's the deal? I know my craft(s), people like what I do, and I'm well paid for it. "If it's the truth, you're not braggin'" Wilbert in SC ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Conductors
We will get a new music director, who´s biography says nothing about him having studied any instrument other than the baton ! Nobody could imagine such even in short time past ??? He has good working attitudes, but no idea about the instruments. You should ask the Dresden players about the recent Salome production there . They built up several traps, into which he ran streight on But we had a nice cooperation (me special) with Billy Budd (difficult page long technical solo passage - you can camouflage a lot, if you play JUST convincing !! Old trick.) He starts allready building up plans for his EGO with CD productions (who will buy these CDs ?), concert tours (for us being duty, for him extra big cheques, - the usual way, a way to get much attention in Spain or Italy or wherever, - sorry, I doubt that !) But he is a working horse, has excellent manners, demanding but friendly, But all this does not bother me much, Just until 2007 After that, as extra hired player to fill the vacancy until they find the replacement for me, . But I can finish the contract every month . Just the money drives me then . Not for me, but for my children, will get plenty enough as pension cheque. == -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Paul Mansur Sent: Monday, May 30, 2005 7:54 PM To: The Horn List Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Conductors On Monday, May 30, 2005, at 01:43 PM, Bob Gibson wrote: > GOD Help us from ex horn players turned > Conductors(?) ! > ___ > post: horn@music.memphis.edu > unsubscribe or set options at > http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/p_mansur1%40co mcast.net > > I rather think horn players make efficient conductors. I've played under quite a few and I find they understand the problems of the players, they give cues, and can maintain a steady beat. I've served a bit in a conducting capacity myself and if I say so myself, I enjoy it, and the groups I've conducted are not complaining! Actually, at my age, I now conduct a whole lot better than I can play the horn! Hans is correct in naming quite a few excellent players who made the switch very pleasantly! My personal experience supports that ex-orchestral players make very decent conductors compared to the stick wavers who never had any orchestral playing experience. CORdially, Mansur's Answers ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans%40pizka.d e ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Conductors
I thought I heard on the local classical music radio station that the director of the Fort Worth Symphony played horn in Argentina before switching to conducting and being picked up as the Music Director of the FWSO. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, May 30, 2005 12:58 PM To: 'The Horn List' Subject: RE: [Hornlist] Conductors Whom do you have in mind ? Joseph Keilberth (+), Barry Tuckwell, Michael Hoeltzel, Michael Thompson, Radek Baborak, Sebastian Weigle (ex solo horn State Opera Berlin, excellent conductor & nice fellow, conducts Berlin State Opera, Dresden, Barcelona, Tokyo, etc.), ... -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bob Gibson Sent: Monday, May 30, 2005 6:43 PM To: horn@music.memphis.edu Subject: [Hornlist] Conductors GOD Help us from ex horn players turned Conductors(?) ! ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans%40pizka.d e ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/bgross%40airmail.net ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Conductors
On Monday, May 30, 2005, at 01:43 PM, Bob Gibson wrote: GOD Help us from ex horn players turned Conductors(?) ! ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/p_mansur1%40comcast.net I rather think horn players make efficient conductors. I've played under quite a few and I find they understand the problems of the players, they give cues, and can maintain a steady beat. I've served a bit in a conducting capacity myself and if I say so myself, I enjoy it, and the groups I've conducted are not complaining! Actually, at my age, I now conduct a whole lot better than I can play the horn! Hans is correct in naming quite a few excellent players who made the switch very pleasantly! My personal experience supports that ex-orchestral players make very decent conductors compared to the stick wavers who never had any orchestral playing experience. CORdially, Mansur's Answers ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Conductors
Whom do you have in mind ? Joseph Keilberth (+), Barry Tuckwell, Michael Hoeltzel, Michael Thompson, Radek Baborak, Sebastian Weigle (ex solo horn State Opera Berlin, excellent conductor & nice fellow, conducts Berlin State Opera, Dresden, Barcelona, Tokyo, etc.), ... -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bob Gibson Sent: Monday, May 30, 2005 6:43 PM To: horn@music.memphis.edu Subject: [Hornlist] Conductors GOD Help us from ex horn players turned Conductors(?) ! ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans%40pizka.d e ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Conductors
I am fortunate to be the principal horn in church orchestra composed of local professionals and band directors. We get to play for services each week as regular part of the worship as well as special occasions during the year. The orchestra is thoroughly professional in ability and there are no prima dona attitudes!! It is a joy to play with this group. My general perception is that good musicians who are secure in their abilities and don't feel like they "have something to prove" are usually not attitude problems. I do sometimes confidence and/or definite musical opinions are mistaken for arrogance. I have been privileged to work with musicians at many levels and in all fields of music. In my experience, arrogance and bad attitudes seem most often to accompany inexperience and/or incompetence. Richard Smith www.rgsmithmusic.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: "Paul Kampen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "The Horn List" Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2005 8:35 AM Subject: RE: [Hornlist] Conductors Message text written by The Horn List Personally, I have respect for anyone with the brass to get in front of a bunch of musicians who by their very nature can be rather unforgiving.< Dear All But does brass neck always lead to the best talent emerging? Whilst at Opera North, I played for all the Leeds Conductors Competitions which have so far taken place (there is one to come this year). The winners have included several whose careers took off brightly. But those competitions were an eye opener as far as young conductors are concerned. The arrogance of some of those people was mind boggling. On the other hand, there was a very petite and shy young lady who entered twice. Obviously very nervous the first time that she entered, she was persuaded to enter again by several orchestra members who were impressed with what they saw. The second time was worse and she finished one of her sessions seemingly close to tears. Yet she obviously possessed far more talent than most of the others. Perhaps it shows that the main thing that you need to be a conductor is brass neck rather than talent! I remember one of the earlier competitions when the Chair of the jury was the late Sir Charles Groves. One young man thrashed around enthusiastically for 10 of his allotted 20 minutes in a knock out round. But then he had to think of something to say and this stumped him so, he said - "I think that I will finish early!" Sir Charles, one of the nicest and gentlest of men ever to have rode a rostrum was moved to unexpected forcefulness - "young man, you are throwing away 10 minutes of the time of a very expensive professional orchestra!" But our hero could only respond by playing through the overture (or whatever it was - I forget) again. Mind you, he sank without trace. Cheers Paul A. Kampen (W. Yorks UK) ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/music%40rgsmithmusic.com ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Conductors
Message text written by The Horn List >Personally, I have respect for anyone with the brass to get in front of a bunch of musicians who by their very nature can be rather unforgiving.< Dear All But does brass neck always lead to the best talent emerging? Whilst at Opera North, I played for all the Leeds Conductors Competitions which have so far taken place (there is one to come this year). The winners have included several whose careers took off brightly. But those competitions were an eye opener as far as young conductors are concerned. The arrogance of some of those people was mind boggling. On the other hand, there was a very petite and shy young lady who entered twice. Obviously very nervous the first time that she entered, she was persuaded to enter again by several orchestra members who were impressed with what they saw. The second time was worse and she finished one of her sessions seemingly close to tears. Yet she obviously possessed far more talent than most of the others. Perhaps it shows that the main thing that you need to be a conductor is brass neck rather than talent! I remember one of the earlier competitions when the Chair of the jury was the late Sir Charles Groves. One young man thrashed around enthusiastically for 10 of his allotted 20 minutes in a knock out round. But then he had to think of something to say and this stumped him so, he said - "I think that I will finish early!" Sir Charles, one of the nicest and gentlest of men ever to have rode a rostrum was moved to unexpected forcefulness - "young man, you are throwing away 10 minutes of the time of a very expensive professional orchestra!" But our hero could only respond by playing through the overture (or whatever it was - I forget) again. Mind you, he sank without trace. Cheers Paul A. Kampen (W. Yorks UK) ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Conductors
Hi, With all the talk about conductors, I figure I might as well jump in. Personally, I have respect for anyone with the brass to get in front of a bunch of musicians who by their very nature can be rather unforgiving. It's pretty safe to say that the vast majority of us will never swing a stick. I used to be just as vocal as the next when I was dissatisfied with a conductor. It wasn't until I got on the podium that it hit me like a Mack truck that conducting is far more difficult than it looks from either side, either the risers or the audience. The first thing I ever conducted was a Sousa march that I knew backwards and forwards. But it's amazing how much you forget when you are facing the music, so to speak. As players, we're so used to following the leader that being the leader is pretty daunting. Fact is, conductors are human too, and even the great ones screw up from time to time. I remember playing under a very well-known and respected conductor; he made a mistake during the third movement of Lincolnshire Posy, and the band followed him to the letter and made the mistake sound like it was intended. The nasty little critic from the paper didn't even catch it. That comes with being attuned to not only your fellow musicians, but your conductor as well. I think that is one of the responsibilities of a good ensemble - you have to be ready to bail out your conductor on the rare occasions that he or she will need it. It's a great thing to accomplish your own mission, but it is truly wonderful to have the ability to support a fellow musician in the accomplishment of their mission. Case in point - the performance of the Strauss Serenade for Winds a few years ago, with me in the principal horn chair. The principal oboe was a freshman, and it was her first big chance in the principal chair, and she was terrified. I told her to just relax and play how she wanted to play, and I would follow her, and catch her if she fell. She played flawlessly, and I refused to share the bow with her at the end. Oh, yeah...the performance was the conductor's master's recital. On another occasion, while playing Mahler 3, the conductor, a very accomplished conductor and interpreter, lost it about 5 bars into the last movement. You could tell the orchestra was trying like hell to hold it together, but couldn't. He stopped the orchestra, turned to the audience, and said, "sometimes, it just doesn't work." He restarted the last movement, and we played it out...probably a little better than we would have if there had been no error. I also could never figure out which is more difficult - being a wind player and knowing nothing about strings, or being a string player and knowing nothing about winds. Maybe it doesn't matter. Gary Get Firefox!!http://www.mozilla.org/products/firefox/central.html ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Conductors
I am not sure, I don't think so. All I and the principal horn player can remember is that it was an allegro 2/4 movement and there are a few introductory bars before the solo. I went through our concert recordings and couldn't find it, but not all concerts were recorded. Loren \@() [EMAIL PROTECTED] (520) 403-6897 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, May 23, 2005 4:30 PM To: horn@music.memphis.edu Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Conductors Was it the Saint-Saens symphony 3? -William In a message dated 5/23/2005 6:29:25 P.M. Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Yep, the rule is to keep your eyes on the conductor, but the truth is you gotta know when NOT to look at the conductor. War story. I was playing 3rd horn and had the important solo at the beginning of the 3rd movement of a symphony which I now can't remember the name of. I very much had to empty my horn at the end of the 2nd movement which I did as quickly as I could-keeping my eye on the conductor. He saw my eye contact and thought I was ready so started conducted faster than I expected. I could not put my slide back in fast enough to play the solo. Now I don't look at the conductor until I am ready. Loren \@() [EMAIL PROTECTED] (520) 403-6897 ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/loren%40mayhews.us ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Conductors
Was it the Saint-Saens symphony 3? -William In a message dated 5/23/2005 6:29:25 P.M. Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Yep, the rule is to keep your eyes on the conductor, but the truth is you gotta know when NOT to look at the conductor. War story. I was playing 3rd horn and had the important solo at the beginning of the 3rd movement of a symphony which I now can't remember the name of. I very much had to empty my horn at the end of the 2nd movement which I did as quickly as I could-keeping my eye on the conductor. He saw my eye contact and thought I was ready so started conducted faster than I expected. I could not put my slide back in fast enough to play the solo. Now I don't look at the conductor until I am ready. Loren \@() [EMAIL PROTECTED] (520) 403-6897 ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Conductors
Yep, the rule is to keep your eyes on the conductor, but the truth is you gotta know when NOT to look at the conductor. War story. I was playing 3rd horn and had the important solo at the beginning of the 3rd movement of a symphony which I now can't remember the name of. I very much had to empty my horn at the end of the 2nd movement which I did as quickly as I could-keeping my eye on the conductor. He saw my eye contact and thought I was ready so started conducted faster than I expected. I could not put my slide back in fast enough to play the solo. Now I don't look at the conductor until I am ready. Loren \@() [EMAIL PROTECTED] (520) 403-6897 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of WIlliam Botte Sent: Monday, May 23, 2005 1:38 PM To: horn@music.memphis.edu Subject: [Hornlist] Conductors The past 15 years, I've been pleased and/or plagued with excellent and less than excellent conductors. The excellent conductors were niether timid or tyranical. They were universaly clear in direction and consistent with cues and tempi. No surprises. No tantrums. No compromises. The plagues were incompetent time wasters, ill prepared, inconsistent withe cues, tempi and beating patterns. There is nothing more terrifying than to look up at conductor twirling the baton in the air like a skylight. Or looking for the noexistent downbeat. WTF!!! Or the micromillimeter twitching of the right hand to indicate pianissimo. AAAGH. Communicate with troops in the back row, not just the octet semicircle within whispering distance. --wabotte ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/loren%40mayhews.us ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
