subject:"Re\: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and AWS"

I've used both MQ and Kafka so I'll give a brief overview of the 
differences and capabilities.


Kafka is distributed system. It's designed to be scaled horizontally for 
both fail-over and throughput. It uses a consensus algorithm similar to 
RAFT to elect a leader both initially and in the event of a broker 
failure when it needs to re-balance the cluster. MQ is a traditional 
message broker where Kafka is more of a streaming platform that you can 
think of a distributed log. The Kafka unit of scale is a partition which 
is a file in the file system,  distributed either randomly using keys or 
round robin. MQ is push based with a local transaction log where Kafka 
is pull based using commits to keep the offset into the log per 
consumer. The benefit of this is that you can take a service down for 
upgrade and then restart from the last commit point. Unlike MQ Kafka 
keeps doesn't delete records when they are consumed so you can bring new 
services online that start from the earliest position in the log. Data 
retention is managed using policies such as time and size limits.


Kafka works in a sysplex as it boils down to a TCP based protocol and is 
platform agnostic. In fact you could build a cluster with some brokers 
on z/OS and some on x86 Linux if you wanted to. It runs well on z/OS, 
although it was broken until last year as z/OS UNIX mmap was limited to 
31-bit address spaces. IBM fixed the issue as Kafka is strategic for 
analytics products (including ours). There is some doc 
https://www.ibm.com/docs/en/z-logdata-analytics/5.1.0?topic=configuring-setting-up-apache-kafka-z.


Where the two really start to differ is the eco-system. Kafka is much 
more then just a broker. There is a stream API and other abstractions to 
layer on top such as ksqlDB which a SQL interface to live data streams. 
You write a query which can aggregate/group data from a stream based 
upon a time window and then emit results to an output topic. For 
example, you can stream SMF 110 CICS CMF records, aggregate them into a 
5 minute hopping window with AVG, MIN, MAX functions etc and then 
publish them to Elasticsearch, Splunk or a data lake. 
https://docs.ksqldb.io/en/latest/concepts/time-and-windows-in-ksqldb-queries/


MQ is the clear winner for traditional mainframe transactions, Kafka is 
the goto for real time streaming of events.


On 20/06/2022 9:53 pm, Colin Paice wrote:

On the MQ front, I >think< there are customers who are using QREP to do DB2
to DB2 using MQ as the transport, over 1000 KM and getting about 100MB+ of
data a second - with a few second or subsecond response time.  So to the
end user it looks like a single system rather than replicated.
The limits are the rate at which you can log to disk - about 200 MB a
second last time I was involved, and the capacity of the network.
I dont know abou Kafta, if it supports sysplex, and what it's throughput is
in similar scenarios.
If you want more throughput you create another queue manager, and get more
network capacity.
Colin

On Mon, 20 Jun 2022 at 14:38, Gerhard Adam  wrote:


Perhaps no one has :grokked" the difference is because either there isn't
one or because it is so poorly explained and discussed as to be
non-existent.   This sounds like more marketing hype perpetrated by
individuals that know buzzwords and little else.



-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf
Of David Crayford
Sent: Monday, June 20, 2022 6:12 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM
and AWS

Thanks. I’ve seen something similar on the ACM
https://dl.acm.org/doi/pdf/10.1145/1476793.1476796


On 20 Jun 2022, at 8:51 pm, Joe Monk  wrote:

https://ntrs.nasa.gov/citations/1969381

Joe


On Mon, Jun 20, 2022 at 7:00 AM David Crayford 

wrote:

And yet still nobody seems to have grokked the fundamental
differences between online systems and event-driven architectures.
This is obviously not the forum for discussions on contemporary
software architectures. It always deteriorates into a deluge of
boring and undiscerningposts about how it's nothing new and was
already done back in the day on a S360 with 4K ram and a paper-taper

reader held together with gaffer tape.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Event-driven_architecture


On 20/06/2022 7:40 pm, Seymour J Metz wrote:
Before MQ there were QTAM and TCAM.



There have been mainframes running real time applications since the

1960s. Air traffic control. Airline reservations. Controlling traffic
lights (UNIVAC, not IBM.) These may not be the best examples, but
they were the first to come to mind, and used off the shelf mainframes.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on

behalf of René Jansen [rene.vincent.jan...@gmail.com]

Sent: Monday, June 20, 2022 5:50 AM
To:IBM-MAIN@LI

Re: Debit vs Credit card for cash at ATM? [was: RE: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and AWS]

2022-06-20 Thread Phil Smith III

Bob Bridges wrote:

>It was at length, wasn't it?  Sorry, I just felt I had to explain how I got

>into the weird habit.

Oh, sorry-my "at length" wasn't a snide remark: it was a notation that I was
brutally trimming your post! Trying to find the sweet spot between excessive
quoting (looking at far too many of the folks here) and no quoting (also
often problematic-those often seem to be the most potentially interesting,
and thus the most frustrating).

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
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Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and AWS

2022-06-20 Thread Colin Paice

On the MQ front, I >think< there are customers who are using QREP to do DB2
to DB2 using MQ as the transport, over 1000 KM and getting about 100MB+ of
data a second - with a few second or subsecond response time.  So to the
end user it looks like a single system rather than replicated.
The limits are the rate at which you can log to disk - about 200 MB a
second last time I was involved, and the capacity of the network.
I dont know abou Kafta, if it supports sysplex, and what it's throughput is
in similar scenarios.
If you want more throughput you create another queue manager, and get more
network capacity.
Colin

On Mon, 20 Jun 2022 at 14:38, Gerhard Adam  wrote:

> Perhaps no one has :grokked" the difference is because either there isn't
> one or because it is so poorly explained and discussed as to be
> non-existent.   This sounds like more marketing hype perpetrated by
> individuals that know buzzwords and little else.
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf
> Of David Crayford
> Sent: Monday, June 20, 2022 6:12 AM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM
> and AWS
>
> Thanks. I’ve seen something similar on the ACM
> https://dl.acm.org/doi/pdf/10.1145/1476793.1476796
>
> > On 20 Jun 2022, at 8:51 pm, Joe Monk  wrote:
> >
> > https://ntrs.nasa.gov/citations/1969381
> >
> > Joe
> >
> >> On Mon, Jun 20, 2022 at 7:00 AM David Crayford 
> wrote:
> >>
> >> And yet still nobody seems to have grokked the fundamental
> >> differences between online systems and event-driven architectures.
> >> This is obviously not the forum for discussions on contemporary
> >> software architectures. It always deteriorates into a deluge of
> >> boring and undiscerningposts about how it's nothing new and was
> >> already done back in the day on a S360 with 4K ram and a paper-taper
> reader held together with gaffer tape.
> >>
> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Event-driven_architecture
> >>
> >>> On 20/06/2022 7:40 pm, Seymour J Metz wrote:
> >>> Before MQ there were QTAM and TCAM.
> >> 
> >>>
> >>> There have been mainframes running real time applications since the
> >> 1960s. Air traffic control. Airline reservations. Controlling traffic
> >> lights (UNIVAC, not IBM.) These may not be the best examples, but
> >> they were the first to come to mind, and used off the shelf mainframes.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
> >>> http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
> >>>
> >>> 
> >>> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on
> >> behalf of René Jansen [rene.vincent.jan...@gmail.com]
> >>> Sent: Monday, June 20, 2022 5:50 AM
> >>> To:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> >>> Subject: Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with
> >>> IBM
> >> and AWS
> >>>
> >>> You can make that 'about 30 years ago' - time flies while we’re
> >>> having
> >> fun.
> >>>
> >>> René.
> >>>
> >>>> On 20 Jun 2022, at 09:51, Colin Paice  wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> MQ from IBM developed about 20+ years ago helped get from Batch to
> real
> >>>> time.   You put messages to a queue, and it can run IMS transactions
> >>>> (including OTMA),  CICS transactions, or even batch!.  You can put
> >>>> on
> >> one
> >>>> member in a sysplex and get in another member.
> >>>> It has single put, and also publish/subscribe capability.
> >>>>
> >>>> Colin
> >>>>
> >>> 
> >>> -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> >>> send email tolists...@listserv.ua.edu  with the message: INFO
> >>> IBM-MAIN
> >>>
> >>> 
> >>> -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> >>> send email tolists...@listserv.ua.edu  with the message: INFO
> >>> IBM-MAIN
> >>
> >> -
> >> - For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> >> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message

Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and AWS

2022-06-20 Thread Joe Monk

aka Marketechture.

Joe

On Mon, Jun 20, 2022 at 8:45 AM David Crayford  wrote:

> Isn’t buzzword a buzzword? There’s some irony there.
>
> > On 20 Jun 2022, at 9:38 pm, Gerhard Adam  wrote:
> >
> > discussed as to be non-existent.   This sounds like more marketing hype
> perpetrated
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>

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Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and AWS

Isn’t buzzword a buzzword? There’s some irony there. 

> On 20 Jun 2022, at 9:38 pm, Gerhard Adam  wrote:
> 
> discussed as to be non-existent.   This sounds like more marketing hype 
> perpetrated

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Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and AWS

2022-06-20 Thread Gerhard Adam

Perhaps no one has :grokked" the difference is because either there isn't one 
or because it is so poorly explained and discussed as to be non-existent.   
This sounds like more marketing hype perpetrated by individuals that know 
buzzwords and little else.



-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
David Crayford
Sent: Monday, June 20, 2022 6:12 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and AWS

Thanks. I’ve seen something similar on the ACM 
https://dl.acm.org/doi/pdf/10.1145/1476793.1476796

> On 20 Jun 2022, at 8:51 pm, Joe Monk  wrote:
> 
> https://ntrs.nasa.gov/citations/1969381
> 
> Joe
> 
>> On Mon, Jun 20, 2022 at 7:00 AM David Crayford  wrote:
>> 
>> And yet still nobody seems to have grokked the fundamental 
>> differences between online systems and event-driven architectures. 
>> This is obviously not the forum for discussions on contemporary 
>> software architectures. It always deteriorates into a deluge of 
>> boring and undiscerningposts about how it's nothing new and was 
>> already done back in the day on a S360 with 4K ram and a paper-taper reader 
>> held together with gaffer tape.
>> 
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Event-driven_architecture
>> 
>>> On 20/06/2022 7:40 pm, Seymour J Metz wrote:
>>> Before MQ there were QTAM and TCAM.
>> 
>>> 
>>> There have been mainframes running real time applications since the
>> 1960s. Air traffic control. Airline reservations. Controlling traffic 
>> lights (UNIVAC, not IBM.) These may not be the best examples, but 
>> they were the first to come to mind, and used off the shelf mainframes.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> --
>>> Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
>>> http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
>>> 
>>> ________
>>> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on
>> behalf of René Jansen [rene.vincent.jan...@gmail.com]
>>> Sent: Monday, June 20, 2022 5:50 AM
>>> To:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
>>> Subject: Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with 
>>> IBM
>> and AWS
>>> 
>>> You can make that 'about 30 years ago' - time flies while we’re 
>>> having
>> fun.
>>> 
>>> René.
>>> 
>>>> On 20 Jun 2022, at 09:51, Colin Paice  wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> MQ from IBM developed about 20+ years ago helped get from Batch to real
>>>> time.   You put messages to a queue, and it can run IMS transactions
>>>> (including OTMA),  CICS transactions, or even batch!.  You can put 
>>>> on
>> one
>>>> member in a sysplex and get in another member.
>>>> It has single put, and also publish/subscribe capability.
>>>> 
>>>> Colin
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, 
>>> send email tolists...@listserv.ua.edu  with the message: INFO 
>>> IBM-MAIN
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, 
>>> send email tolists...@listserv.ua.edu  with the message: INFO 
>>> IBM-MAIN
>> 
>> -
>> - For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, 
>> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO 
>> IBM-MAIN
>> 
> 
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send 
> email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

--
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--
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Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and AWS

Thanks. I’ve seen something similar on the ACM 
https://dl.acm.org/doi/pdf/10.1145/1476793.1476796

> On 20 Jun 2022, at 8:51 pm, Joe Monk  wrote:
> 
> https://ntrs.nasa.gov/citations/1969381
> 
> Joe
> 
>> On Mon, Jun 20, 2022 at 7:00 AM David Crayford  wrote:
>> 
>> And yet still nobody seems to have grokked the fundamental differences
>> between online systems and event-driven architectures. This is obviously
>> not the forum for discussions on contemporary software architectures. It
>> always deteriorates into a deluge of boring and undiscerningposts about
>> how it's nothing new and was already done back in the day on a S360 with
>> 4K ram and a paper-taper reader held together with gaffer tape.
>> 
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Event-driven_architecture
>> 
>>> On 20/06/2022 7:40 pm, Seymour J Metz wrote:
>>> Before MQ there were QTAM and TCAM.
>> 
>>> 
>>> There have been mainframes running real time applications since the
>> 1960s. Air traffic control. Airline reservations. Controlling traffic
>> lights (UNIVAC, not IBM.) These may not be the best examples, but they were
>> the first to come to mind, and used off the shelf mainframes.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> --
>>> Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
>>> http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
>>> 
>>> 
>>> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on
>> behalf of René Jansen [rene.vincent.jan...@gmail.com]
>>> Sent: Monday, June 20, 2022 5:50 AM
>>> To:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
>>> Subject: Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM
>> and AWS
>>> 
>>> You can make that 'about 30 years ago' - time flies while we’re having
>> fun.
>>> 
>>> René.
>>> 
>>>> On 20 Jun 2022, at 09:51, Colin Paice  wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> MQ from IBM developed about 20+ years ago helped get from Batch to real
>>>> time.   You put messages to a queue, and it can run IMS transactions
>>>> (including OTMA),  CICS transactions, or even batch!.  You can put on
>> one
>>>> member in a sysplex and get in another member.
>>>> It has single put, and also publish/subscribe capability.
>>>> 
>>>> Colin
>>>> 
>>> --
>>> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
>>> send email tolists...@listserv.ua.edu  with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>>> 
>>> --
>>> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
>>> send email tolists...@listserv.ua.edu  with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>> 
>> --
>> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
>> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>> 
> 
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

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Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and AWS

2022-06-20 Thread Joe Monk

https://ntrs.nasa.gov/citations/1969381

Joe

On Mon, Jun 20, 2022 at 7:00 AM David Crayford  wrote:

> And yet still nobody seems to have grokked the fundamental differences
> between online systems and event-driven architectures. This is obviously
> not the forum for discussions on contemporary software architectures. It
> always deteriorates into a deluge of boring and undiscerningposts about
> how it's nothing new and was already done back in the day on a S360 with
> 4K ram and a paper-taper reader held together with gaffer tape.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Event-driven_architecture
>
> On 20/06/2022 7:40 pm, Seymour J Metz wrote:
> > Before MQ there were QTAM and TCAM.
> 
> >
> > There have been mainframes running real time applications since the
> 1960s. Air traffic control. Airline reservations. Controlling traffic
> lights (UNIVAC, not IBM.) These may not be the best examples, but they were
> the first to come to mind, and used off the shelf mainframes.
> >
> >
> > --
> > Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
> > http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
> >
> > 
> > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on
> behalf of René Jansen [rene.vincent.jan...@gmail.com]
> > Sent: Monday, June 20, 2022 5:50 AM
> > To:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> > Subject: Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM
> and AWS
> >
> > You can make that 'about 30 years ago' - time flies while we’re having
> fun.
> >
> > René.
> >
> >> On 20 Jun 2022, at 09:51, Colin Paice  wrote:
> >>
> >> MQ from IBM developed about 20+ years ago helped get from Batch to real
> >> time.   You put messages to a queue, and it can run IMS transactions
> >> (including OTMA),  CICS transactions, or even batch!.  You can put on
> one
> >> member in a sysplex and get in another member.
> >> It has single put, and also publish/subscribe capability.
> >>
> >> Colin
> >>
> > --
> > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> > send email tolists...@listserv.ua.edu  with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
> >
> > --
> > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> > send email tolists...@listserv.ua.edu  with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>

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Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and AWS

Sounds like a good use case for medivac; a facility without a 24x7 pharmacy 
can't provide meaningful 24x7 emergency care. Providing reasonable service to 
rural arrays is difficult in a lot of areas, not just medicine, and I don't see 
the political will to address it anytime soon.

--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3

From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Bill Johnson [0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
Sent: Monday, June 20, 2022 8:28 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and AWS

So you’re assuming “pharmacies are open 24 by 7” as ALL but not SOME? Got it. 
But ALL hospital pharmacies ARE open 24 by 7. Actually, it’s why many rural 
hospitals are closing. Too expensive to be available 24 by 7 (pharmacy & 
hospital) in lesser populated and lesser affluent areas.

Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone

On Monday, June 20, 2022, 7:57 AM, Seymour J Metz  wrote:

"pharmacies are open 24 by 7" is not the same as "some pharmacies are open 24 
by 7" or "most pharmacies are open 24 by 7". My local CVS closes for lunch 
every day. People with medical emergencies are likely to be in a hospital when 
they need a prescription filled, so I don't consider the lunch break to be more 
than a mild nuisance.

I would hope that pharmacies in hospitals would be 24x7, but they are not 
representative of pharmacies at large.

--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3

From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Bill Johnson [0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
Sent: Monday, June 20, 2022 7:42 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and AWS

 CVS has 24 hour pharmacies. So does Walgreens and Rite Aid. We have a 24 hour 
Walgreens 2 miles from my house. Not all retail pharmacies are open 24 hours, 
but there are numerous ones in most cities. But, every hospital has a pharmacy 
that IS open 24 by 7. I've worked in health care for about 20 years of my 40 in 
IT. You need to have access to drugs at all times. Or people die.

On Monday, June 20, 2022 at 06:51:59 AM EDT, Seymour J Metz 
 wrote:

 Perhaps some are: CVS isn't.

--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3

From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Bill Johnson [0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
Sent: Sunday, June 19, 2022 4:21 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and AWS

Most mainframes store transactions and process in batch? Are you the same guy 
who didn’t know pharmacies are open 24 by 7?

Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone

On Sunday, June 19, 2022, 2:03 PM, David Crayford  wrote:

On 20/06/2022 12:38 am, Seymour J Metz wrote:
> Keep in mind that the mainframe can only do batch processing, with input from 
> cards. It doesn't support anything like CICS, IMS or Sabre..

What have transactional systems like CICS or IMS got to do with
real-time, straight-through processing? Most mainframe transactions
store data that is later processed by batch, typically overnight. In the
case of banking transactions that require inter-bank settlements this
can cause delays of several days. In Australia the government mandated
the NPP (New Payments Platform) which facilities instant payments using
payids, which can be an email address, cellphone numbers etc. The API is
a simple REST API using HTTP
https://secure-web.cisco.com/1cVCppuTlJ_nNLCyIpfi-pFWBClb6lq0nQl_7E--OgnADnbuDkYX8bcjtN6oIQ16B7sRfQ6OOuKQq5QEsgUNf1wFNw-vDdy4M0iIKKAuBN963Nz6gCY1jLEhKQkGKEoyGO9Z-wZYLbalLh_6t-yXF0tJt57oapuTFDOrG3GFsopnPGoLuZ4lhsE-QLh8nA4FrboD8IlzLKjbPsQj-pX4nCx-5TqIo8psGz3mESLroERbYAiILA7fDZwB43yTbn-VzeobnA6ekc_rpFTqhR0IQ5Sh4Edlu7N1EUQ58yn28hGb_a0yq75xJMnQiCxA0sU1Si67g84Rll_yCyt27ggj4mSC-Y501bGnMLip29-0IurTidywtHtLuc7WbjeLeon2CRuFO9mcnFZ5ZFvA_KT8equXAEbZ7tPu1HS-0BD6cCWjPwQggcoAS7FwZRvM34g_d/https%3A%2F%2Fnppa.com.au%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2020%2F10%2FNPP-API-Framework-v4.0-Final.pdf.
It's my understanding that no bank implemented NPP on the mainframe.
 From the presentations I've seen they used CDC to capture writes and
then published events to Kafka, which was fanned out to different
micro-services to do fraud detection, payments, push notifications etc.
Back in the day straight-through processing was a pipe dream which is
why we have overnight batch. It's a relic of applications written
decades ago for very different hardware platforms.

> It's much better to run Linux than to get an IFL, which can only run batch.

I have no idea what you mean?

>
> Cynical? Moi?
>
>
> --
> S

Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and AWS

2022-06-20 Thread Joe Monk

CVS is 24/7 some pharmacies. Especially here in Texas.

https://www.cvs.com/store-locator/cvs-pharmacy-locations/24-hour-pharmacies/Texas/Houston

Joe



On Mon, Jun 20, 2022 at 5:52 AM Seymour J Metz  wrote:

> Perhaps some are: CVS isn't.
>
>
> --
> Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
> http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
>
> 
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf
> of Bill Johnson [0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
> Sent: Sunday, June 19, 2022 4:21 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM
> and AWS
>
> Most mainframes store transactions and process in batch? Are you the same
> guy who didn’t know pharmacies are open 24 by 7?
>
>
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
>
> On Sunday, June 19, 2022, 2:03 PM, David Crayford 
> wrote:
>
> On 20/06/2022 12:38 am, Seymour J Metz wrote:
> > Keep in mind that the mainframe can only do batch processing, with input
> from cards. It doesn't support anything like CICS, IMS or Sabre..
>
> What have transactional systems like CICS or IMS got to do with
> real-time, straight-through processing? Most mainframe transactions
> store data that is later processed by batch, typically overnight. In the
> case of banking transactions that require inter-bank settlements this
> can cause delays of several days. In Australia the government mandated
> the NPP (New Payments Platform) which facilities instant payments using
> payids, which can be an email address, cellphone numbers etc. The API is
> a simple REST API using HTTP
>
> https://secure-web.cisco.com/1cVCppuTlJ_nNLCyIpfi-pFWBClb6lq0nQl_7E--OgnADnbuDkYX8bcjtN6oIQ16B7sRfQ6OOuKQq5QEsgUNf1wFNw-vDdy4M0iIKKAuBN963Nz6gCY1jLEhKQkGKEoyGO9Z-wZYLbalLh_6t-yXF0tJt57oapuTFDOrG3GFsopnPGoLuZ4lhsE-QLh8nA4FrboD8IlzLKjbPsQj-pX4nCx-5TqIo8psGz3mESLroERbYAiILA7fDZwB43yTbn-VzeobnA6ekc_rpFTqhR0IQ5Sh4Edlu7N1EUQ58yn28hGb_a0yq75xJMnQiCxA0sU1Si67g84Rll_yCyt27ggj4mSC-Y501bGnMLip29-0IurTidywtHtLuc7WbjeLeon2CRuFO9mcnFZ5ZFvA_KT8equXAEbZ7tPu1HS-0BD6cCWjPwQggcoAS7FwZRvM34g_d/https%3A%2F%2Fnppa.com.au%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2020%2F10%2FNPP-API-Framework-v4.0-Final.pdf
> .
> It's my understanding that no bank implemented NPP on the mainframe.
>  From the presentations I've seen they used CDC to capture writes and
> then published events to Kafka, which was fanned out to different
> micro-services to do fraud detection, payments, push notifications etc.
> Back in the day straight-through processing was a pipe dream which is
> why we have overnight batch. It's a relic of applications written
> decades ago for very different hardware platforms.
>
>
> > It's much better to run Linux than to get an IFL, which can only run
> batch.
>
> I have no idea what you mean?
>
> >
> > Cynical? Moi?
> >
> >
> > --
> > Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
> > http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
> >
> > ____________
> > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on
> behalf of David Crayford [dcrayf...@gmail.com]
> > Sent: Sunday, June 19, 2022 2:36 AM
> > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> > Subject: Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM
> and AWS
> >
> > On 19/06/2022 5:23 am, Enzo D'Amato wrote:
> >> I also agree, but as a non-insider, I wanted to know what others were
> thinking. I also belive that in most cases, the effort spent trying to get
> off the mainframe would be better spent actually fixing the code running on
> it in the first place. Moving around broken code doesn't automatically fix
> it.
> > It's not just about fixing broken code. If you read the ING CIO's
> > remarks about why they wanted off the mainframe it's not about the
> > platform. Nobody denies that mainframes are insanely brilliant hardware
> > platforms. ING wanted to get rid of batch and move towards an event
> > driven architecture using pub/sub where they can easily deploy loosely
> > coupled micro-services to provide cutting edge products. The technology
> > stacks are built on open source such as Kafka, MongoDB, Cassandra, NiFi,
> > Avro etc.  The retail banking industry has been disrupted by fintechs so
> > waiting for an overnight batch schedule for settlements is a competitive
> > disadvantage.  Cracking open and modernizing 50-60 year old COBOL batch
> > applications is a VERY heavy lift.
> >
> >
> https://secure-web.cisco.com/1GoiNO6FBPSWW0D9FZYVYixer1jsPeSd_xH-wmi6jMOC-onAkZQ4Pkf3c1UMGWbQeEprnkSWa1xGxz4vvn-LF0jVrCFlVVFZKQJ4Jti8nbQ7QchsOxhwNiwluJrdKkQP2nXXHQH2Ut2NNa9VChfVBIDR7Akw4u

Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and AWS

Event driven architectures have been around for decades. Controlling traffic 
lights in the 1960s was event driven. 

There are a lot of new software platforms available these days, but the article 
did not discuss anything that can't run on a mainframe.

Neither you nor anybody else in this thread has identified any new technology 
that can't run on the mainframe, much less explained why that inability is a 
show stopper. Nor has anybody but you mentioned either 4K or paper tape, 
neither of which was common on 1960s mainframes. Think 1108, 7094, 360/65, not 
PDP-8.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
David Crayford [dcrayf...@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, June 20, 2022 7:59 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and AWS

And yet still nobody seems to have grokked the fundamental differences
between online systems and event-driven architectures. This is obviously
not the forum for discussions on contemporary software architectures. It
always deteriorates into a deluge of boring and undiscerningposts about
how it's nothing new and was already done back in the day on a S360 with
4K ram and a paper-taper reader held together with gaffer tape.

https://secure-web.cisco.com/186ZuolB_tCuPvhv0bAOtpLLWkUCF7nA25WHtRf3OjB2FEOpsx9SsmVTIvHali1wgxtNkZ146orTos1WsT9r6x-wA3UluGG8FUwt1ayGMUg2M6RDrWLWGlfAcLIeRDM17uvMMlCygkBnwsXsLyMwdBZfE14aByEbi-VKALBWKFagQqJeC7yohhXTmB_GXjbh-vWQqjEtKDXMiWuYfejHjxc1_eq4NEL3KYt2_KTyRG_erU4c7uvhOzO-PXCniNy5xLJOTWobpdZHK_Jex7kdxbPl69hcX0s3iuNpZFBvYuGGOfmy5MJzO38x9YoqoNDJJj-WcS3h7xi2DzK3z0R3MsNBkgH9CIAe-cS_h2AQCvy3Pzci2RTsSCjBnejAspMeJCPFG6_AHguM0vdHURrkPi5d3lWLnr3Fuw0kyLpgw8bSfV118VqbcPtbrrkhM6_KD/https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FEvent-driven_architecture

On 20/06/2022 7:40 pm, Seymour J Metz wrote:
> Before MQ there were QTAM and TCAM.

>
> There have been mainframes running real time applications since the 1960s. 
> Air traffic control. Airline reservations. Controlling traffic lights 
> (UNIVAC, not IBM.) These may not be the best examples, but they were the 
> first to come to mind, and used off the shelf mainframes.
>
>
> --
> Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
> http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
>
> 
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
> René Jansen [rene.vincent.jan...@gmail.com]
> Sent: Monday, June 20, 2022 5:50 AM
> To:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and 
> AWS
>
> You can make that 'about 30 years ago' - time flies while we’re having fun.
>
> René.
>
>> On 20 Jun 2022, at 09:51, Colin Paice  wrote:
>>
>> MQ from IBM developed about 20+ years ago helped get from Batch to real
>> time.   You put messages to a queue, and it can run IMS transactions
>> (including OTMA),  CICS transactions, or even batch!.  You can put on one
>> member in a sysplex and get in another member.
>> It has single put, and also publish/subscribe capability.
>>
>> Colin
>>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email tolists...@listserv.ua.edu  with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email tolists...@listserv.ua.edu  with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

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Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and AWS

2022-06-20 Thread Bill Johnson

So you’re assuming “pharmacies are open 24 by 7” as ALL but not SOME? Got it. 
But ALL hospital pharmacies ARE open 24 by 7. Actually, it’s why many rural 
hospitals are closing. Too expensive to be available 24 by 7 (pharmacy & 
hospital) in lesser populated and lesser affluent areas.

Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone

On Monday, June 20, 2022, 7:57 AM, Seymour J Metz  wrote:

"pharmacies are open 24 by 7" is not the same as "some pharmacies are open 24 
by 7" or "most pharmacies are open 24 by 7". My local CVS closes for lunch 
every day. People with medical emergencies are likely to be in a hospital when 
they need a prescription filled, so I don't consider the lunch break to be more 
than a mild nuisance.

I would hope that pharmacies in hospitals would be 24x7, but they are not 
representative of pharmacies at large.

--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3

From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Bill Johnson [0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
Sent: Monday, June 20, 2022 7:42 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and AWS

 CVS has 24 hour pharmacies. So does Walgreens and Rite Aid. We have a 24 hour 
Walgreens 2 miles from my house. Not all retail pharmacies are open 24 hours, 
but there are numerous ones in most cities. But, every hospital has a pharmacy 
that IS open 24 by 7. I've worked in health care for about 20 years of my 40 in 
IT. You need to have access to drugs at all times. Or people die.

    On Monday, June 20, 2022 at 06:51:59 AM EDT, Seymour J Metz 
 wrote:

 Perhaps some are: CVS isn't.

--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3

From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Bill Johnson [0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
Sent: Sunday, June 19, 2022 4:21 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and AWS

Most mainframes store transactions and process in batch? Are you the same guy 
who didn’t know pharmacies are open 24 by 7?

Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone

On Sunday, June 19, 2022, 2:03 PM, David Crayford  wrote:

On 20/06/2022 12:38 am, Seymour J Metz wrote:
> Keep in mind that the mainframe can only do batch processing, with input from 
> cards. It doesn't support anything like CICS, IMS or Sabre..

What have transactional systems like CICS or IMS got to do with
real-time, straight-through processing? Most mainframe transactions
store data that is later processed by batch, typically overnight. In the
case of banking transactions that require inter-bank settlements this
can cause delays of several days. In Australia the government mandated
the NPP (New Payments Platform) which facilities instant payments using
payids, which can be an email address, cellphone numbers etc. The API is
a simple REST API using HTTP
https://secure-web.cisco.com/1cVCppuTlJ_nNLCyIpfi-pFWBClb6lq0nQl_7E--OgnADnbuDkYX8bcjtN6oIQ16B7sRfQ6OOuKQq5QEsgUNf1wFNw-vDdy4M0iIKKAuBN963Nz6gCY1jLEhKQkGKEoyGO9Z-wZYLbalLh_6t-yXF0tJt57oapuTFDOrG3GFsopnPGoLuZ4lhsE-QLh8nA4FrboD8IlzLKjbPsQj-pX4nCx-5TqIo8psGz3mESLroERbYAiILA7fDZwB43yTbn-VzeobnA6ekc_rpFTqhR0IQ5Sh4Edlu7N1EUQ58yn28hGb_a0yq75xJMnQiCxA0sU1Si67g84Rll_yCyt27ggj4mSC-Y501bGnMLip29-0IurTidywtHtLuc7WbjeLeon2CRuFO9mcnFZ5ZFvA_KT8equXAEbZ7tPu1HS-0BD6cCWjPwQggcoAS7FwZRvM34g_d/https%3A%2F%2Fnppa.com.au%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2020%2F10%2FNPP-API-Framework-v4.0-Final.pdf.
It's my understanding that no bank implemented NPP on the mainframe.
 From the presentations I've seen they used CDC to capture writes and
then published events to Kafka, which was fanned out to different
micro-services to do fraud detection, payments, push notifications etc.
Back in the day straight-through processing was a pipe dream which is
why we have overnight batch. It's a relic of applications written
decades ago for very different hardware platforms.

> It's much better to run Linux than to get an IFL, which can only run batch.

I have no idea what you mean?

>
> Cynical? Moi?
>
>
> --
> Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
> http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
>
> 
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
> David Crayford [dcrayf...@gmail.com]
> Sent: Sunday, June 19, 2022 2:36 AM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and 
> AWS
>
> On 19/06/2022 5:23 am, Enzo D'Amato wrote:
>> I also agree, but as a non-insider, I wanted to know what others were 
>> thinking. I also belive that in most cases, the effort spent trying to get 
>> off the mainframe would be better spent actually fixin

Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and AWS

And yet still nobody seems to have grokked the fundamental differences 
between online systems and event-driven architectures. This is obviously 
not the forum for discussions on contemporary software architectures. It 
always deteriorates into a deluge of boring and undiscerningposts about 
how it's nothing new and was already done back in the day on a S360 with 
4K ram and a paper-taper reader held together with gaffer tape.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Event-driven_architecture

On 20/06/2022 7:40 pm, Seymour J Metz wrote:

Before MQ there were QTAM and TCAM.




There have been mainframes running real time applications since the 1960s. Air 
traffic control. Airline reservations. Controlling traffic lights (UNIVAC, not 
IBM.) These may not be the best examples, but they were the first to come to 
mind, and used off the shelf mainframes.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
René Jansen [rene.vincent.jan...@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, June 20, 2022 5:50 AM
To:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and AWS

You can make that 'about 30 years ago' - time flies while we’re having fun.

René.


On 20 Jun 2022, at 09:51, Colin Paice  wrote:

MQ from IBM developed about 20+ years ago helped get from Batch to real
time.   You put messages to a queue, and it can run IMS transactions
(including OTMA),  CICS transactions, or even batch!.  You can put on one
member in a sysplex and get in another member.
It has single put, and also publish/subscribe capability.

Colin


--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email tolists...@listserv.ua.edu  with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email tolists...@listserv.ua.edu  with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN


--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and AWS

"pharmacies are open 24 by 7" is not the same as "some pharmacies are open 24 
by 7" or "most pharmacies are open 24 by 7". My local CVS closes for lunch 
every day. People with medical emergencies are likely to be in a hospital when 
they need a prescription filled, so I don't consider the lunch break to be more 
than a mild nuisance.

I would hope that pharmacies in hospitals would be 24x7, but they are not 
representative of pharmacies at large.

--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3

From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Bill Johnson [0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
Sent: Monday, June 20, 2022 7:42 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and AWS

 CVS has 24 hour pharmacies. So does Walgreens and Rite Aid. We have a 24 hour 
Walgreens 2 miles from my house. Not all retail pharmacies are open 24 hours, 
but there are numerous ones in most cities. But, every hospital has a pharmacy 
that IS open 24 by 7. I've worked in health care for about 20 years of my 40 in 
IT. You need to have access to drugs at all times. Or people die.

On Monday, June 20, 2022 at 06:51:59 AM EDT, Seymour J Metz 
 wrote:

 Perhaps some are: CVS isn't.

--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3

From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Bill Johnson [0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
Sent: Sunday, June 19, 2022 4:21 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and AWS

Most mainframes store transactions and process in batch? Are you the same guy 
who didn’t know pharmacies are open 24 by 7?

Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone

On Sunday, June 19, 2022, 2:03 PM, David Crayford  wrote:

On 20/06/2022 12:38 am, Seymour J Metz wrote:
> Keep in mind that the mainframe can only do batch processing, with input from 
> cards. It doesn't support anything like CICS, IMS or Sabre..

What have transactional systems like CICS or IMS got to do with
real-time, straight-through processing? Most mainframe transactions
store data that is later processed by batch, typically overnight. In the
case of banking transactions that require inter-bank settlements this
can cause delays of several days. In Australia the government mandated
the NPP (New Payments Platform) which facilities instant payments using
payids, which can be an email address, cellphone numbers etc. The API is
a simple REST API using HTTP
https://secure-web.cisco.com/1cVCppuTlJ_nNLCyIpfi-pFWBClb6lq0nQl_7E--OgnADnbuDkYX8bcjtN6oIQ16B7sRfQ6OOuKQq5QEsgUNf1wFNw-vDdy4M0iIKKAuBN963Nz6gCY1jLEhKQkGKEoyGO9Z-wZYLbalLh_6t-yXF0tJt57oapuTFDOrG3GFsopnPGoLuZ4lhsE-QLh8nA4FrboD8IlzLKjbPsQj-pX4nCx-5TqIo8psGz3mESLroERbYAiILA7fDZwB43yTbn-VzeobnA6ekc_rpFTqhR0IQ5Sh4Edlu7N1EUQ58yn28hGb_a0yq75xJMnQiCxA0sU1Si67g84Rll_yCyt27ggj4mSC-Y501bGnMLip29-0IurTidywtHtLuc7WbjeLeon2CRuFO9mcnFZ5ZFvA_KT8equXAEbZ7tPu1HS-0BD6cCWjPwQggcoAS7FwZRvM34g_d/https%3A%2F%2Fnppa.com.au%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2020%2F10%2FNPP-API-Framework-v4.0-Final.pdf.
It's my understanding that no bank implemented NPP on the mainframe.
 From the presentations I've seen they used CDC to capture writes and
then published events to Kafka, which was fanned out to different
micro-services to do fraud detection, payments, push notifications etc.
Back in the day straight-through processing was a pipe dream which is
why we have overnight batch. It's a relic of applications written
decades ago for very different hardware platforms.

> It's much better to run Linux than to get an IFL, which can only run batch.

I have no idea what you mean?

>
> Cynical? Moi?
>
>
> --
> Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
> http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
>
> 
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
> David Crayford [dcrayf...@gmail.com]
> Sent: Sunday, June 19, 2022 2:36 AM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and 
> AWS
>
> On 19/06/2022 5:23 am, Enzo D'Amato wrote:
>> I also agree, but as a non-insider, I wanted to know what others were 
>> thinking. I also belive that in most cases, the effort spent trying to get 
>> off the mainframe would be better spent actually fixing the code running on 
>> it in the first place. Moving around broken code doesn't automatically fix 
>> it.
> It's not just about fixing broken code. If you read the ING CIO's
> remarks about why they wanted off the mainframe it's not about the
> platform. Nobody denies that mainframes are insanely brilliant hardware
> platforms. ING wa

Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and AWS

Are you denying that IFL and REST on mainframes are old hat?

If you're alluding to the cost of specialty issues as opposed to the cost of 
non-mainframe platforms, that wasn't an issue that the article raised.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
David Crayford [dcrayf...@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, June 20, 2022 7:42 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and AWS

On 20/06/2022 7:10 pm, Seymour J Metz wrote:
> Whoosh!

Is that the tick shaped thing that goes on the side of Nike sneekers?


> There is no "traditional transaction processing"; transaction processing is 
> an open ended paradigm. CICS may have it's limitation, but the fact that it 
> has been around for half a century should be enough to demolish the belief 
> that mainframe=batch.
>
> The availability of, e.g., REST, on z/OS is not exactly breaking news.

Speaking from experience?


> The reference to IFL is because the author of the article seems to believe 
> that Linux and mainframe are mutually exclusive, despite the lengthy 
> availability of Linux on Z and the lengthy availability of specialty engines 
> to reduce the cost.

Do you have experience with IFL's?


>
>
> --
> Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
> http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
>
> 
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
> David Crayford [dcrayf...@gmail.com]
> Sent: Sunday, June 19, 2022 3:24 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and 
> AWS
>
> On 20/06/2022 2:53 am, Seymour J Metz wrote:
>> Systems like CICS *are* real-time, straight-through, although they can 
>> certainly create data for later batch processing. The point is that for half 
>> a century "mainframe" has included a wealth of applications that were not 
>> batch, and that the point of transactional subsytems was to get away from 
>> batch. There may be many valid reasons for getting away from a mainframe, 
>> but the belief that you need to do so in order to get away from batch is 
>> insane
> You're still missing the point. CICS is a transaction monitor. I'm
> talking about real-time, continuous data feeds using middleware like
> Kafka as the central nervous system. This is a new concept and very
> different to traditional transaction processing + batch. Watch
> https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3Dx_rYEpRrdrA&data=05%7C01%7Csmetz3%40gmu.edu%7Ce98337b51b004e7d53be08da52b1fe07%7C9e857255df574c47a0c00546460380cb%7C0%7C0%7C637913221683415833%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=n6GiIoEvrP%2FRwRL5s%2FNEz2FoQtGzOxzcheJNRxn6QZQ%3D&reserved=0
>  which is a microcosm of what
> many mainframe sites are doing. Almost every bank that I know of who run
> mainframes are doing something similar.
>
>
>> Similarly, the desire to use new APIs that are already available on the 
>> mainframe does not explain the desire to leave.
> What APIs are you referring to?
>
>
>> --
>> Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
>> http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
>>
>> ____________
>> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
>> David Crayford [dcrayf...@gmail.com]
>> Sent: Sunday, June 19, 2022 2:02 PM
>> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
>> Subject: Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and 
>> AWS
>>
>> On 20/06/2022 12:38 am, Seymour J Metz wrote:
>>> Keep in mind that the mainframe can only do batch processing, with input 
>>> from cards. It doesn't support anything like CICS, IMS or Sabre..
>> What have transactional systems like CICS or IMS got to do with
>> real-time, straight-through processing? Most mainframe transactions
>> store data that is later processed by batch, typically overnight. In the
>> case of banking transactions that require inter-bank settlements this
>> can cause delays of several days. In Australia the government mandated
>> the NPP (New Payments Platform) which facilities instant payments using
>> payids, which can be an email address, cellphone numbers etc. The API is
>> a simple REST API using HTTP
>> https://secure-web.cisco.com/1sBq5wh7NBIBtcLlnoe7mev6AZm4hzTAbw1IPjJa9kH6InoJ3U_Zwg7o9Mx_hc9VvcqSkO2GzjUCct8uA5cgnRrFTDuTMQtKKkcfMvJDb1lG83vYcBEiuvMNdKd-AF1d2oturWYl8cZaHKzA-Pdj-pyq3tHgfdJ5klsvrizH8

Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and AWS


On 20/06/2022 7:10 pm, Seymour J Metz wrote:

Whoosh!


Is that the tick shaped thing that goes on the side of Nike sneekers?



There is no "traditional transaction processing"; transaction processing is an 
open ended paradigm. CICS may have it's limitation, but the fact that it has been around 
for half a century should be enough to demolish the belief that mainframe=batch.

The availability of, e.g., REST, on z/OS is not exactly breaking news.


Speaking from experience?



The reference to IFL is because the author of the article seems to believe that 
Linux and mainframe are mutually exclusive, despite the lengthy availability of 
Linux on Z and the lengthy availability of specialty engines to reduce the cost.


Do you have experience with IFL's?





--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
David Crayford [dcrayf...@gmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, June 19, 2022 3:24 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and AWS

On 20/06/2022 2:53 am, Seymour J Metz wrote:

Systems like CICS *are* real-time, straight-through, although they can certainly create 
data for later batch processing. The point is that for half a century 
"mainframe" has included a wealth of applications that were not batch, and that 
the point of transactional subsytems was to get away from batch. There may be many valid 
reasons for getting away from a mainframe, but the belief that you need to do so in order 
to get away from batch is insane

You're still missing the point. CICS is a transaction monitor. I'm
talking about real-time, continuous data feeds using middleware like
Kafka as the central nervous system. This is a new concept and very
different to traditional transaction processing + batch. Watch
https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3Dx_rYEpRrdrA&data=05%7C01%7Csmetz3%40gmu.edu%7C1e7929130b7f4b268fad08da52295fed%7C9e857255df574c47a0c00546460380cb%7C0%7C0%7C637912635333981942%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=VgGuc7QO%2Bra6fWz851FIGf50geCCSsd3Jw3Jf1raxbs%3D&reserved=0
 which is a microcosm of what
many mainframe sites are doing. Almost every bank that I know of who run
mainframes are doing something similar.



Similarly, the desire to use new APIs that are already available on the 
mainframe does not explain the desire to leave.

What APIs are you referring to?



--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
David Crayford [dcrayf...@gmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, June 19, 2022 2:02 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and AWS

On 20/06/2022 12:38 am, Seymour J Metz wrote:

Keep in mind that the mainframe can only do batch processing, with input from 
cards. It doesn't support anything like CICS, IMS or Sabre..

What have transactional systems like CICS or IMS got to do with
real-time, straight-through processing? Most mainframe transactions
store data that is later processed by batch, typically overnight. In the
case of banking transactions that require inter-bank settlements this
can cause delays of several days. In Australia the government mandated
the NPP (New Payments Platform) which facilities instant payments using
payids, which can be an email address, cellphone numbers etc. The API is
a simple REST API using HTTP
https://secure-web.cisco.com/1sBq5wh7NBIBtcLlnoe7mev6AZm4hzTAbw1IPjJa9kH6InoJ3U_Zwg7o9Mx_hc9VvcqSkO2GzjUCct8uA5cgnRrFTDuTMQtKKkcfMvJDb1lG83vYcBEiuvMNdKd-AF1d2oturWYl8cZaHKzA-Pdj-pyq3tHgfdJ5klsvrizH8LlkD_HYXieEshsP0famNedXtmoeOw5Urs-J_juVmfWlBLkL5DnxoSvjxKXs3irUVXLx3kIeGvCnSoZwaEeOhIw9o54Tm07SLXThtFfQSMhbhzK-GX34THADQG95_2Wf5Wm7VVHzxBSLvNCP4OVR5cUH1Blor-f81GcfMVs_XxpJ2-Z4_b4kClC7HDOWZLKqZGtSoXtnAaIXHkAeq2Pb3Q-S86UNOkXncePZm3DFQsAVpYKVN1zSAt5Hr9wo_ll03r2pE-zuCf5lLvXbyW6SSnZG_/https%3A%2F%2Fnppa.com.au%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2020%2F10%2FNPP-API-Framework-v4.0-Final.pdf.
It's my understanding that no bank implemented NPP on the mainframe.
   From the presentations I've seen they used CDC to capture writes and
then published events to Kafka, which was fanned out to different
micro-services to do fraud detection, payments, push notifications etc.
Back in the day straight-through processing was a pipe dream which is
why we have overnight batch. It's a relic of applications written
decades ago for very different hardware platforms.



It's much better to run Linux than to get an IFL, which can only run batch.

I have no idea what you mean?


Cynical? Moi?


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3

_

Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and AWS

2022-06-20 Thread Bill Johnson

 CVS has 24 hour pharmacies. So does Walgreens and Rite Aid. We have a 24 hour 
Walgreens 2 miles from my house. Not all retail pharmacies are open 24 hours, 
but there are numerous ones in most cities. But, every hospital has a pharmacy 
that IS open 24 by 7. I've worked in health care for about 20 years of my 40 in 
IT. You need to have access to drugs at all times. Or people die.

On Monday, June 20, 2022 at 06:51:59 AM EDT, Seymour J Metz 
 wrote:  

 Perhaps some are: CVS isn't.

--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3

From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Bill Johnson [0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
Sent: Sunday, June 19, 2022 4:21 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and AWS

Most mainframes store transactions and process in batch? Are you the same guy 
who didn’t know pharmacies are open 24 by 7?

Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone

On Sunday, June 19, 2022, 2:03 PM, David Crayford  wrote:

On 20/06/2022 12:38 am, Seymour J Metz wrote:
> Keep in mind that the mainframe can only do batch processing, with input from 
> cards. It doesn't support anything like CICS, IMS or Sabre..

What have transactional systems like CICS or IMS got to do with
real-time, straight-through processing? Most mainframe transactions
store data that is later processed by batch, typically overnight. In the
case of banking transactions that require inter-bank settlements this
can cause delays of several days. In Australia the government mandated
the NPP (New Payments Platform) which facilities instant payments using
payids, which can be an email address, cellphone numbers etc. The API is
a simple REST API using HTTP
https://secure-web.cisco.com/1cVCppuTlJ_nNLCyIpfi-pFWBClb6lq0nQl_7E--OgnADnbuDkYX8bcjtN6oIQ16B7sRfQ6OOuKQq5QEsgUNf1wFNw-vDdy4M0iIKKAuBN963Nz6gCY1jLEhKQkGKEoyGO9Z-wZYLbalLh_6t-yXF0tJt57oapuTFDOrG3GFsopnPGoLuZ4lhsE-QLh8nA4FrboD8IlzLKjbPsQj-pX4nCx-5TqIo8psGz3mESLroERbYAiILA7fDZwB43yTbn-VzeobnA6ekc_rpFTqhR0IQ5Sh4Edlu7N1EUQ58yn28hGb_a0yq75xJMnQiCxA0sU1Si67g84Rll_yCyt27ggj4mSC-Y501bGnMLip29-0IurTidywtHtLuc7WbjeLeon2CRuFO9mcnFZ5ZFvA_KT8equXAEbZ7tPu1HS-0BD6cCWjPwQggcoAS7FwZRvM34g_d/https%3A%2F%2Fnppa.com.au%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2020%2F10%2FNPP-API-Framework-v4.0-Final.pdf.
It's my understanding that no bank implemented NPP on the mainframe.
 From the presentations I've seen they used CDC to capture writes and
then published events to Kafka, which was fanned out to different
micro-services to do fraud detection, payments, push notifications etc.
Back in the day straight-through processing was a pipe dream which is
why we have overnight batch. It's a relic of applications written
decades ago for very different hardware platforms.

> It's much better to run Linux than to get an IFL, which can only run batch.

I have no idea what you mean?

>
> Cynical? Moi?
>
>
> --
> Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
> http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
>
> 
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
> David Crayford [dcrayf...@gmail.com]
> Sent: Sunday, June 19, 2022 2:36 AM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and 
> AWS
>
> On 19/06/2022 5:23 am, Enzo D'Amato wrote:
>> I also agree, but as a non-insider, I wanted to know what others were 
>> thinking. I also belive that in most cases, the effort spent trying to get 
>> off the mainframe would be better spent actually fixing the code running on 
>> it in the first place. Moving around broken code doesn't automatically fix 
>> it.
> It's not just about fixing broken code. If you read the ING CIO's
> remarks about why they wanted off the mainframe it's not about the
> platform. Nobody denies that mainframes are insanely brilliant hardware
> platforms. ING wanted to get rid of batch and move towards an event
> driven architecture using pub/sub where they can easily deploy loosely
> coupled micro-services to provide cutting edge products. The technology
> stacks are built on open source such as Kafka, MongoDB, Cassandra, NiFi,
> Avro etc.  The retail banking industry has been disrupted by fintechs so
> waiting for an overnight batch schedule for settlements is a competitive
> disadvantage.  Cracking open and modernizing 50-60 year old COBOL batch
> applications is a VERY heavy lift.
>
> https://secure-web.cisco.com/1GoiNO6FBPSWW0D9FZYVYixer1jsPeSd_xH-wmi6jMOC-onAkZQ4Pkf3c1UMGWbQeEprnkSWa1xGxz4vvn-LF0jVrCFlVVFZKQJ4Jti8nbQ7QchsOxhwNiwluJrdKkQP2nXXHQH2Ut2NNa9VChfVBIDR7Akw4ud6_pIXLAFXO5l73Sv-iLZFNU1MWWnLapWhhCKvytdzs7EJTvNZ2qbU8xwCdBEl1UkUuL-jHHZLk6xJPxAadVRWP1nuLz8i5AZrfvDI8u8rZ0V0DT77

Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and AWS

Before MQ there were QTAM and TCAM.

There have been mainframes running real time applications since the 1960s. Air 
traffic control. Airline reservations. Controlling traffic lights (UNIVAC, not 
IBM.) These may not be the best examples, but they were the first to come to 
mind, and used off the shelf mainframes.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
René Jansen [rene.vincent.jan...@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, June 20, 2022 5:50 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and AWS

You can make that 'about 30 years ago' - time flies while we’re having fun.

René.

> On 20 Jun 2022, at 09:51, Colin Paice  wrote:
>
> MQ from IBM developed about 20+ years ago helped get from Batch to real
> time.   You put messages to a queue, and it can run IMS transactions
> (including OTMA),  CICS transactions, or even batch!.  You can put on one
> member in a sysplex and get in another member.
> It has single put, and also publish/subscribe capability.
>
> Colin
>

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and AWS

Whoosh! 

There is no "traditional transaction processing"; transaction processing is an 
open ended paradigm. CICS may have it's limitation, but the fact that it has 
been around for half a century should be enough to demolish the belief that 
mainframe=batch.

The availability of, e.g., REST, on z/OS is not exactly breaking news. 

The reference to IFL is because the author of the article seems to believe that 
Linux and mainframe are mutually exclusive, despite the lengthy availability of 
Linux on Z and the lengthy availability of specialty engines to reduce the cost.

--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3

From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
David Crayford [dcrayf...@gmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, June 19, 2022 3:24 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and AWS

On 20/06/2022 2:53 am, Seymour J Metz wrote:
> Systems like CICS *are* real-time, straight-through, although they can 
> certainly create data for later batch processing. The point is that for half 
> a century "mainframe" has included a wealth of applications that were not 
> batch, and that the point of transactional subsytems was to get away from 
> batch. There may be many valid reasons for getting away from a mainframe, but 
> the belief that you need to do so in order to get away from batch is insane

You're still missing the point. CICS is a transaction monitor. I'm
talking about real-time, continuous data feeds using middleware like
Kafka as the central nervous system. This is a new concept and very
different to traditional transaction processing + batch. Watch
https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3Dx_rYEpRrdrA&data=05%7C01%7Csmetz3%40gmu.edu%7C1e7929130b7f4b268fad08da52295fed%7C9e857255df574c47a0c00546460380cb%7C0%7C0%7C637912635333981942%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=VgGuc7QO%2Bra6fWz851FIGf50geCCSsd3Jw3Jf1raxbs%3D&reserved=0
 which is a microcosm of what
many mainframe sites are doing. Almost every bank that I know of who run
mainframes are doing something similar.

>
> Similarly, the desire to use new APIs that are already available on the 
> mainframe does not explain the desire to leave.

What APIs are you referring to?

>
> --
> Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
> http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
>
> 
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
> David Crayford [dcrayf...@gmail.com]
> Sent: Sunday, June 19, 2022 2:02 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and 
> AWS
>
> On 20/06/2022 12:38 am, Seymour J Metz wrote:
>> Keep in mind that the mainframe can only do batch processing, with input 
>> from cards. It doesn't support anything like CICS, IMS or Sabre..
> What have transactional systems like CICS or IMS got to do with
> real-time, straight-through processing? Most mainframe transactions
> store data that is later processed by batch, typically overnight. In the
> case of banking transactions that require inter-bank settlements this
> can cause delays of several days. In Australia the government mandated
> the NPP (New Payments Platform) which facilities instant payments using
> payids, which can be an email address, cellphone numbers etc. The API is
> a simple REST API using HTTP
> https://secure-web.cisco.com/1sBq5wh7NBIBtcLlnoe7mev6AZm4hzTAbw1IPjJa9kH6InoJ3U_Zwg7o9Mx_hc9VvcqSkO2GzjUCct8uA5cgnRrFTDuTMQtKKkcfMvJDb1lG83vYcBEiuvMNdKd-AF1d2oturWYl8cZaHKzA-Pdj-pyq3tHgfdJ5klsvrizH8LlkD_HYXieEshsP0famNedXtmoeOw5Urs-J_juVmfWlBLkL5DnxoSvjxKXs3irUVXLx3kIeGvCnSoZwaEeOhIw9o54Tm07SLXThtFfQSMhbhzK-GX34THADQG95_2Wf5Wm7VVHzxBSLvNCP4OVR5cUH1Blor-f81GcfMVs_XxpJ2-Z4_b4kClC7HDOWZLKqZGtSoXtnAaIXHkAeq2Pb3Q-S86UNOkXncePZm3DFQsAVpYKVN1zSAt5Hr9wo_ll03r2pE-zuCf5lLvXbyW6SSnZG_/https%3A%2F%2Fnppa.com.au%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2020%2F10%2FNPP-API-Framework-v4.0-Final.pdf.
> It's my understanding that no bank implemented NPP on the mainframe.
>   From the presentations I've seen they used CDC to capture writes and
> then published events to Kafka, which was fanned out to different
> micro-services to do fraud detection, payments, push notifications etc.
> Back in the day straight-through processing was a pipe dream which is
> why we have overnight batch. It's a relic of applications written
> decades ago for very different hardware platforms.
>
>
>> It's much better to run Linux than to get an IFL, which can only run batch.
> I have no idea what you mean?
>
>> Cynical? Moi?
>>
>>
>> --

Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and AWS

Perhaps some are: CVS isn't.

--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3

From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Bill Johnson [0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
Sent: Sunday, June 19, 2022 4:21 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and AWS

Most mainframes store transactions and process in batch? Are you the same guy 
who didn’t know pharmacies are open 24 by 7?

Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone

On Sunday, June 19, 2022, 2:03 PM, David Crayford  wrote:

On 20/06/2022 12:38 am, Seymour J Metz wrote:
> Keep in mind that the mainframe can only do batch processing, with input from 
> cards. It doesn't support anything like CICS, IMS or Sabre..

What have transactional systems like CICS or IMS got to do with
real-time, straight-through processing? Most mainframe transactions
store data that is later processed by batch, typically overnight. In the
case of banking transactions that require inter-bank settlements this
can cause delays of several days. In Australia the government mandated
the NPP (New Payments Platform) which facilities instant payments using
payids, which can be an email address, cellphone numbers etc. The API is
a simple REST API using HTTP
https://secure-web.cisco.com/1cVCppuTlJ_nNLCyIpfi-pFWBClb6lq0nQl_7E--OgnADnbuDkYX8bcjtN6oIQ16B7sRfQ6OOuKQq5QEsgUNf1wFNw-vDdy4M0iIKKAuBN963Nz6gCY1jLEhKQkGKEoyGO9Z-wZYLbalLh_6t-yXF0tJt57oapuTFDOrG3GFsopnPGoLuZ4lhsE-QLh8nA4FrboD8IlzLKjbPsQj-pX4nCx-5TqIo8psGz3mESLroERbYAiILA7fDZwB43yTbn-VzeobnA6ekc_rpFTqhR0IQ5Sh4Edlu7N1EUQ58yn28hGb_a0yq75xJMnQiCxA0sU1Si67g84Rll_yCyt27ggj4mSC-Y501bGnMLip29-0IurTidywtHtLuc7WbjeLeon2CRuFO9mcnFZ5ZFvA_KT8equXAEbZ7tPu1HS-0BD6cCWjPwQggcoAS7FwZRvM34g_d/https%3A%2F%2Fnppa.com.au%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2020%2F10%2FNPP-API-Framework-v4.0-Final.pdf.
It's my understanding that no bank implemented NPP on the mainframe.
 From the presentations I've seen they used CDC to capture writes and
then published events to Kafka, which was fanned out to different
micro-services to do fraud detection, payments, push notifications etc.
Back in the day straight-through processing was a pipe dream which is
why we have overnight batch. It's a relic of applications written
decades ago for very different hardware platforms.

> It's much better to run Linux than to get an IFL, which can only run batch.

I have no idea what you mean?

>
> Cynical? Moi?
>
>
> --
> Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
> http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
>
> 
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
> David Crayford [dcrayf...@gmail.com]
> Sent: Sunday, June 19, 2022 2:36 AM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and 
> AWS
>
> On 19/06/2022 5:23 am, Enzo D'Amato wrote:
>> I also agree, but as a non-insider, I wanted to know what others were 
>> thinking. I also belive that in most cases, the effort spent trying to get 
>> off the mainframe would be better spent actually fixing the code running on 
>> it in the first place. Moving around broken code doesn't automatically fix 
>> it.
> It's not just about fixing broken code. If you read the ING CIO's
> remarks about why they wanted off the mainframe it's not about the
> platform. Nobody denies that mainframes are insanely brilliant hardware
> platforms. ING wanted to get rid of batch and move towards an event
> driven architecture using pub/sub where they can easily deploy loosely
> coupled micro-services to provide cutting edge products. The technology
> stacks are built on open source such as Kafka, MongoDB, Cassandra, NiFi,
> Avro etc.  The retail banking industry has been disrupted by fintechs so
> waiting for an overnight batch schedule for settlements is a competitive
> disadvantage.  Cracking open and modernizing 50-60 year old COBOL batch
> applications is a VERY heavy lift.
>
> https://secure-web.cisco.com/1GoiNO6FBPSWW0D9FZYVYixer1jsPeSd_xH-wmi6jMOC-onAkZQ4Pkf3c1UMGWbQeEprnkSWa1xGxz4vvn-LF0jVrCFlVVFZKQJ4Jti8nbQ7QchsOxhwNiwluJrdKkQP2nXXHQH2Ut2NNa9VChfVBIDR7Akw4ud6_pIXLAFXO5l73Sv-iLZFNU1MWWnLapWhhCKvytdzs7EJTvNZ2qbU8xwCdBEl1UkUuL-jHHZLk6xJPxAadVRWP1nuLz8i5AZrfvDI8u8rZ0V0DT77_Uvu8klHLbL9xe2qaYi1P6a6mc8r9Aj2jothGC-CR9cbCgb-JVXupgin9UctH5C_iVMyn_T-9jzZjtNyZDETxb8hXMU-BOuUz89MGu1nniZJ2tvSSN8yh5A6K-_It8fA10UFCfSBhOB0NVkwKL5M8A2BxZ9_e111GnxGK_PAbj0wh5fvU/https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theregister.com%2F2016%2F07%2F01%2Fing_mainframe_strategy%2F
>  <- read
> the comments section. It's hilarious :)
>
> The doubly whammy is there's a skills crisis slowly unraveling. In the
> last year we've had 3 key resources move to 3 day weeks with

Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and AWS

2022-06-20 Thread René Jansen

You can make that 'about 30 years ago' - time flies while we’re having fun.

René.

> On 20 Jun 2022, at 09:51, Colin Paice  wrote:
> 
> MQ from IBM developed about 20+ years ago helped get from Batch to real
> time.   You put messages to a queue, and it can run IMS transactions
> (including OTMA),  CICS transactions, or even batch!.  You can put on one
> member in a sysplex and get in another member.
> It has single put, and also publish/subscribe capability.
> 
> Colin
> 

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and AWS


On 20/06/2022 3:51 pm, Colin Paice wrote:

MQ from IBM developed about 20+ years ago helped get from Batch to real
time.   You put messages to a queue, and it can run IMS transactions
(including OTMA),  CICS transactions, or even batch!.  You can put on one
member in a sysplex and get in another member.
It has single put, and also publish/subscribe capability.


Great post. For the use case I'm discussing, which is real-time data 
replication, Kafka will be orders of magnitude more efficient then MQ as 
it uses a pull model while maintaining equivalent HA durability. MQ is 
awesome for mainframe applications that require edge triggered events 
such as CICS transactions. I'm not sure if I would use it in a batch job 
as the middleware for a data mover.  I stumbled across an interesting 
paper from IBM with performance metrics running MQ with zCX as the 
concentrator.  Seems that there may be serious money to be saved with 
this deployment using zCX. I like these sensible, real world scenarios 
as opposed to the usual fluff about running large distributed systems on 
zCX containers.


https://ibm-messaging.github.io/mqperf/MQ%20with%20zCX.pdf



Colin

On Sun, 19 Jun 2022 at 22:27, Joe Monk  wrote:


"What have transactional systems like CICS or IMS got to do with
real-time, straight-through processing? Most mainframe transactions
store data that is later processed by batch, typically overnight."

If you think CICS and IMS are transactional only, youre stuck in the '80s.
As an example, ICCF on VSE uses CICS as the TP Monitor. Tell me that
writing code, storing it in a library, compiling, etc. are not "real-time".

Joe

On Sun, Jun 19, 2022 at 1:03 PM David Crayford
wrote:


On 20/06/2022 12:38 am, Seymour J Metz wrote:

Keep in mind that the mainframe can only do batch processing, with

input

from cards. It doesn't support anything like CICS, IMS or Sabre..

What have transactional systems like CICS or IMS got to do with
real-time, straight-through processing? Most mainframe transactions
store data that is later processed by batch, typically overnight. In the
case of banking transactions that require inter-bank settlements this
can cause delays of several days. In Australia the government mandated
the NPP (New Payments Platform) which facilities instant payments using
payids, which can be an email address, cellphone numbers etc. The API is
a simple REST API using HTTP



https://nppa.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/NPP-API-Framework-v4.0-Final.pdf
.

It's my understanding that no bank implemented NPP on the mainframe.
  From the presentations I've seen they used CDC to capture writes and
then published events to Kafka, which was fanned out to different
micro-services to do fraud detection, payments, push notifications etc.
Back in the day straight-through processing was a pipe dream which is
why we have overnight batch. It's a relic of applications written
decades ago for very different hardware platforms.



It's much better to run Linux than to get an IFL, which can only run

batch.

I have no idea what you mean?


Cynical? Moi?


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on

behalf of David Crayford [dcrayf...@gmail.com]

Sent: Sunday, June 19, 2022 2:36 AM
To:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM

and AWS

On 19/06/2022 5:23 am, Enzo D'Amato wrote:

I also agree, but as a non-insider, I wanted to know what others were

thinking. I also belive that in most cases, the effort spent trying to

get

off the mainframe would be better spent actually fixing the code running

on

it in the first place. Moving around broken code doesn't automatically

fix

it.

It's not just about fixing broken code. If you read the ING CIO's
remarks about why they wanted off the mainframe it's not about the
platform. Nobody denies that mainframes are insanely brilliant hardware
platforms. ING wanted to get rid of batch and move towards an event
driven architecture using pub/sub where they can easily deploy loosely
coupled micro-services to provide cutting edge products. The technology
stacks are built on open source such as Kafka, MongoDB, Cassandra,

NiFi,

Avro etc.  The retail banking industry has been disrupted by fintechs

so

waiting for an overnight batch schedule for settlements is a

competitive

disadvantage.  Cracking open and modernizing 50-60 year old COBOL batch
applications is a VERY heavy lift.



https://secure-web.cisco.com/1GoiNO6FBPSWW0D9FZYVYixer1jsPeSd_xH-wmi6jMOC-onAkZQ4Pkf3c1UMGWbQeEprnkSWa1xGxz4vvn-LF0jVrCFlVVFZKQJ4Jti8nbQ7QchsOxhwNiwluJrdKkQP2nXXHQH2Ut2NNa9VChfVBIDR7Akw4ud6_pIXLAFXO5l73Sv-iLZFNU1MWWnLapWhhCKvytdzs7EJTvNZ2qbU8xwCdBEl1UkUuL-jHHZLk6xJPxAadVRWP1nuLz8i5AZrfvDI8u8rZ0V0DT77_Uvu8klHLbL9xe2qaYi1P6a6mc8r9Aj2joth

Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and AWS

2022-06-20 Thread Colin Paice

MQ from IBM developed about 20+ years ago helped get from Batch to real
time.   You put messages to a queue, and it can run IMS transactions
(including OTMA),  CICS transactions, or even batch!.  You can put on one
member in a sysplex and get in another member.
It has single put, and also publish/subscribe capability.

Colin

On Sun, 19 Jun 2022 at 22:27, Joe Monk  wrote:

> "What have transactional systems like CICS or IMS got to do with
> real-time, straight-through processing? Most mainframe transactions
> store data that is later processed by batch, typically overnight."
>
> If you think CICS and IMS are transactional only, youre stuck in the '80s.
> As an example, ICCF on VSE uses CICS as the TP Monitor. Tell me that
> writing code, storing it in a library, compiling, etc. are not "real-time".
>
> Joe
>
> On Sun, Jun 19, 2022 at 1:03 PM David Crayford 
> wrote:
>
> > On 20/06/2022 12:38 am, Seymour J Metz wrote:
> > > Keep in mind that the mainframe can only do batch processing, with
> input
> > from cards. It doesn't support anything like CICS, IMS or Sabre..
> >
> > What have transactional systems like CICS or IMS got to do with
> > real-time, straight-through processing? Most mainframe transactions
> > store data that is later processed by batch, typically overnight. In the
> > case of banking transactions that require inter-bank settlements this
> > can cause delays of several days. In Australia the government mandated
> > the NPP (New Payments Platform) which facilities instant payments using
> > payids, which can be an email address, cellphone numbers etc. The API is
> > a simple REST API using HTTP
> >
> >
> https://nppa.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/NPP-API-Framework-v4.0-Final.pdf
> .
> >
> > It's my understanding that no bank implemented NPP on the mainframe.
> >  From the presentations I've seen they used CDC to capture writes and
> > then published events to Kafka, which was fanned out to different
> > micro-services to do fraud detection, payments, push notifications etc.
> > Back in the day straight-through processing was a pipe dream which is
> > why we have overnight batch. It's a relic of applications written
> > decades ago for very different hardware platforms.
> >
> >
> > > It's much better to run Linux than to get an IFL, which can only run
> > batch.
> >
> > I have no idea what you mean?
> >
> > >
> > > Cynical? Moi?
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
> > > http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
> > >
> > > 
> > > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on
> > behalf of David Crayford [dcrayf...@gmail.com]
> > > Sent: Sunday, June 19, 2022 2:36 AM
> > > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> > > Subject: Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM
> > and AWS
> > >
> > > On 19/06/2022 5:23 am, Enzo D'Amato wrote:
> > >> I also agree, but as a non-insider, I wanted to know what others were
> > thinking. I also belive that in most cases, the effort spent trying to
> get
> > off the mainframe would be better spent actually fixing the code running
> on
> > it in the first place. Moving around broken code doesn't automatically
> fix
> > it.
> > > It's not just about fixing broken code. If you read the ING CIO's
> > > remarks about why they wanted off the mainframe it's not about the
> > > platform. Nobody denies that mainframes are insanely brilliant hardware
> > > platforms. ING wanted to get rid of batch and move towards an event
> > > driven architecture using pub/sub where they can easily deploy loosely
> > > coupled micro-services to provide cutting edge products. The technology
> > > stacks are built on open source such as Kafka, MongoDB, Cassandra,
> NiFi,
> > > Avro etc.  The retail banking industry has been disrupted by fintechs
> so
> > > waiting for an overnight batch schedule for settlements is a
> competitive
> > > disadvantage.  Cracking open and modernizing 50-60 year old COBOL batch
> > > applications is a VERY heavy lift.
> > >
> > >
> >
> https://secure-web.cisco.com/1GoiNO6FBPSWW0D9FZYVYixer1jsPeSd_xH-wmi6jMOC-onAkZQ4Pkf3c1UMGWbQeEprnkSWa1xGxz4vvn-LF0jVrCFlVVFZKQJ4Jti8nbQ7QchsOxhwNiwluJrdKkQP2nXXHQH2Ut2NNa9VChfVBIDR7Akw4ud6_pIXLAFXO5l73Sv-iLZFNU1MWWnLapWhhCKvytdzs7EJTvNZ2qbU8xwCdBEl1UkUuL-jHHZLk6xJPxAadVRWP1nuLz8i5AZrfvDI8u8rZ0V0DT77_Uvu8klHLbL9xe2qaYi1P6a6

Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and AWS


On 20/06/2022 12:10 pm, kekronbekron wrote:

  From the presentations I've seen they used CDC to capture writes and

then published events to Kafka, which was fanned out to different
micro-services to do fraud detection, payments, push notifications etc.

Any chance it's available for the public?
I've seen a similar session by Confluent & Nationwide.
Knowing others' implementation stories is super useful.


WestPac (There's 4 in the series)

https://videos.confluent.io/watch/P5up2YQX9QdVMhmYfsXy7Q

Commonwealth Bank. CommBank own Bank West which has a similar 
architecture. I had an interesting chat with one of their architects at 
z meetup and he told me they use Oracle Golden Gate for CDC and Apache 
Cassandra. They also moved some DB2 SQL queries to distributed 
connecting via DDA which can be offloaded to a zIIP, removing a CICS 
transaction. 70% of all CICS transactions were reads which they now 
offload saving big . Mobile banking was killing them!


https://www.confluent.io/kafka-summit-sf18/kafka-in-the-enterprise/

NAB

https://business.nab.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/new-payments-platform-two-years-on.pdf

Another interesting read is project atom which is a partnership between 
CBA, NAB, WestPac, IBM and the RBA for interoperability of settlements 
using blockchain. Did you know that IBMs motivation to port golang to 
z/OS was so they could port HyperLedger which is written in Go?


https://www.rba.gov.au/payments-and-infrastructure/central-bank-digital-currency/pdf/project-atom-report_2021-12.pdf

I could go on and on. We had a meeting with Confluent and they pretty 
much have to financial services industry wrapped up. One of my team used 
to work for Barclays in the UK and they implemented an EBA almost 10 
years ago. Same with the big US banks.




- KB

--- Original Message ---
On Sunday, June 19th, 2022 at 11:32 PM, David Crayford  
wrote:



On 20/06/2022 12:38 am, Seymour J Metz wrote:


Keep in mind that the mainframe can only do batch processing, with input from 
cards. It doesn't support anything like CICS, IMS or Sabre..


What have transactional systems like CICS or IMS got to do with
real-time, straight-through processing? Most mainframe transactions
store data that is later processed by batch, typically overnight. In the
case of banking transactions that require inter-bank settlements this
can cause delays of several days. In Australia the government mandated
the NPP (New Payments Platform) which facilities instant payments using
payids, which can be an email address, cellphone numbers etc. The API is
a simple REST API using HTTP
https://nppa.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/NPP-API-Framework-v4.0-Final.pdf.
It's my understanding that no bank implemented NPP on the mainframe.
 From the presentations I've seen they used CDC to capture writes and
then published events to Kafka, which was fanned out to different
micro-services to do fraud detection, payments, push notifications etc.
Back in the day straight-through processing was a pipe dream which is
why we have overnight batch. It's a relic of applications written
decades ago for very different hardware platforms.


It's much better to run Linux than to get an IFL, which can only run batch.


I have no idea what you mean?


Cynical? Moi?

--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
David Crayford [dcrayf...@gmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, June 19, 2022 2:36 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and AWS

On 19/06/2022 5:23 am, Enzo D'Amato wrote:


I also agree, but as a non-insider, I wanted to know what others were thinking. 
I also belive that in most cases, the effort spent trying to get off the 
mainframe would be better spent actually fixing the code running on it in the 
first place. Moving around broken code doesn't automatically fix it.
It's not just about fixing broken code. If you read the ING CIO's
remarks about why they wanted off the mainframe it's not about the
platform. Nobody denies that mainframes are insanely brilliant hardware
platforms. ING wanted to get rid of batch and move towards an event
driven architecture using pub/sub where they can easily deploy loosely
coupled micro-services to provide cutting edge products. The technology
stacks are built on open source such as Kafka, MongoDB, Cassandra, NiFi,
Avro etc. The retail banking industry has been disrupted by fintechs so
waiting for an overnight batch schedule for settlements is a competitive
disadvantage. Cracking open and modernizing 50-60 year old COBOL batch
applications is a VERY heavy lift.

https://secure-web.cisco.com/1GoiNO6FBPSWW0D9FZYVYixer1jsPeSd_xH-wmi6jMOC-onAkZQ4Pkf3c1UMGWbQeEprnkSWa1xGxz4vvn-LF0jVrCFlVVFZKQJ4Jti8nbQ7QchsOxhwNiwluJrdKkQP2nXXHQH2Ut2NNa9VChf

Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and AWS

2022-06-19 Thread kekronbekron

>  From the presentations I've seen they used CDC to capture writes and
then published events to Kafka, which was fanned out to different
micro-services to do fraud detection, payments, push notifications etc.

Any chance it's available for the public?
I've seen a similar session by Confluent & Nationwide.
Knowing others' implementation stories is super useful.

- KB

--- Original Message ---
On Sunday, June 19th, 2022 at 11:32 PM, David Crayford  
wrote:


> On 20/06/2022 12:38 am, Seymour J Metz wrote:
>
> > Keep in mind that the mainframe can only do batch processing, with input 
> > from cards. It doesn't support anything like CICS, IMS or Sabre..
>
>
> What have transactional systems like CICS or IMS got to do with
> real-time, straight-through processing? Most mainframe transactions
> store data that is later processed by batch, typically overnight. In the
> case of banking transactions that require inter-bank settlements this
> can cause delays of several days. In Australia the government mandated
> the NPP (New Payments Platform) which facilities instant payments using
> payids, which can be an email address, cellphone numbers etc. The API is
> a simple REST API using HTTP
> https://nppa.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/NPP-API-Framework-v4.0-Final.pdf.
> It's my understanding that no bank implemented NPP on the mainframe.
> From the presentations I've seen they used CDC to capture writes and
> then published events to Kafka, which was fanned out to different
> micro-services to do fraud detection, payments, push notifications etc.
> Back in the day straight-through processing was a pipe dream which is
> why we have overnight batch. It's a relic of applications written
> decades ago for very different hardware platforms.
>
> > It's much better to run Linux than to get an IFL, which can only run batch.
>
>
> I have no idea what you mean?
>
> > Cynical? Moi?
> >
> > --
> > Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
> > http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
> >
> > 
> > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
> > David Crayford [dcrayf...@gmail.com]
> > Sent: Sunday, June 19, 2022 2:36 AM
> > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> > Subject: Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and 
> > AWS
> >
> > On 19/06/2022 5:23 am, Enzo D'Amato wrote:
> >
> > > I also agree, but as a non-insider, I wanted to know what others were 
> > > thinking. I also belive that in most cases, the effort spent trying to 
> > > get off the mainframe would be better spent actually fixing the code 
> > > running on it in the first place. Moving around broken code doesn't 
> > > automatically fix it.
> > > It's not just about fixing broken code. If you read the ING CIO's
> > > remarks about why they wanted off the mainframe it's not about the
> > > platform. Nobody denies that mainframes are insanely brilliant hardware
> > > platforms. ING wanted to get rid of batch and move towards an event
> > > driven architecture using pub/sub where they can easily deploy loosely
> > > coupled micro-services to provide cutting edge products. The technology
> > > stacks are built on open source such as Kafka, MongoDB, Cassandra, NiFi,
> > > Avro etc. The retail banking industry has been disrupted by fintechs so
> > > waiting for an overnight batch schedule for settlements is a competitive
> > > disadvantage. Cracking open and modernizing 50-60 year old COBOL batch
> > > applications is a VERY heavy lift.
> >
> > https://secure-web.cisco.com/1GoiNO6FBPSWW0D9FZYVYixer1jsPeSd_xH-wmi6jMOC-onAkZQ4Pkf3c1UMGWbQeEprnkSWa1xGxz4vvn-LF0jVrCFlVVFZKQJ4Jti8nbQ7QchsOxhwNiwluJrdKkQP2nXXHQH2Ut2NNa9VChfVBIDR7Akw4ud6_pIXLAFXO5l73Sv-iLZFNU1MWWnLapWhhCKvytdzs7EJTvNZ2qbU8xwCdBEl1UkUuL-jHHZLk6xJPxAadVRWP1nuLz8i5AZrfvDI8u8rZ0V0DT77_Uvu8klHLbL9xe2qaYi1P6a6mc8r9Aj2jothGC-CR9cbCgb-JVXupgin9UctH5C_iVMyn_T-9jzZjtNyZDETxb8hXMU-BOuUz89MGu1nniZJ2tvSSN8yh5A6K-_It8fA10UFCfSBhOB0NVkwKL5M8A2BxZ9_e111GnxGK_PAbj0wh5fvU/https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theregister.com%2F2016%2F07%2F01%2Fing_mainframe_strategy%2F
> >  <- read
> > the comments section. It's hilarious :)
> >
> > The doubly whammy is there's a skills crisis slowly unraveling. In the
> > last year we've had 3 key resources move to 3 day weeks with a view to
> > retiring. Replacing highly skilled assembler programmers with deep
> > subsystem knowledge is proving to be difficult. Young people don't want
> > to learn HLASM as they consider it a dead-end. Their position is

Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and AWS

The mainframe has been a real time machine for decades. 


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Sunday, June 19, 2022, 8:26 PM, David Crayford  wrote:

Did he say that are are you putting words into his mouth? Either way I don’t 
care. He’s been retired for years so his knowledge of the mainframe is frozen 
in time. If you’re not at the coalface you loose touch. 

> On 20 Jun 2022, at 8:19 am, Bill Johnson 
> <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
> 
> Aren’t you the guy who thought Pharmacies weren’t open 24 by 7? Metz is 
> right, if you think the mainframe is a batch machine, you’ve got zero 
> credibility.
> 
> 
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
> 
> 
> On Sunday, June 19, 2022, 4:51 PM, David Crayford  wrote:
> 
>> On 20/06/2022 4:21 am, Bill Johnson wrote:
>> Most mainframes store transactions and process in batch? Are you the same 
>> guy who didn’t know pharmacies are open 24 by 7?
> 
> Go and have a nap Bill. And don't forget to take your meds when you wake up.
> 
> 
>> 
>> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>> 
>> 
>> On Sunday, June 19, 2022, 2:03 PM, David Crayford  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> On 20/06/2022 12:38 am, Seymour J Metz wrote:
>>> Keep in mind that the mainframe can only do batch processing, with input 
>>> from cards. It doesn't support anything like CICS, IMS or Sabre..
>> What have transactional systems like CICS or IMS got to do with
>> real-time, straight-through processing? Most mainframe transactions
>> store data that is later processed by batch, typically overnight. In the
>> case of banking transactions that require inter-bank settlements this
>> can cause delays of several days. In Australia the government mandated
>> the NPP (New Payments Platform) which facilities instant payments using
>> payids, which can be an email address, cellphone numbers etc. The API is
>> a simple REST API using HTTP
>> https://nppa.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/NPP-API-Framework-v4.0-Final.pdf.
>> It's my understanding that no bank implemented NPP on the mainframe.
>>  From the presentations I've seen they used CDC to capture writes and
>> then published events to Kafka, which was fanned out to different
>> micro-services to do fraud detection, payments, push notifications etc.
>> Back in the day straight-through processing was a pipe dream which is
>> why we have overnight batch. It's a relic of applications written
>> decades ago for very different hardware platforms.
>> 
>> 
>>> It's much better to run Linux than to get an IFL, which can only run batch.
>> I have no idea what you mean?
>> 
>>> Cynical? Moi?
>>> 
>>> 
>>> --
>>> Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
>>> http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
>>> 
>>> 
>>> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
>>> David Crayford [dcrayf...@gmail.com]
>>> Sent: Sunday, June 19, 2022 2:36 AM
>>> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
>>> Subject: Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and 
>>> AWS
>>> 
>>> On 19/06/2022 5:23 am, Enzo D'Amato wrote:
>>>> I also agree, but as a non-insider, I wanted to know what others were 
>>>> thinking. I also belive that in most cases, the effort spent trying to get 
>>>> off the mainframe would be better spent actually fixing the code running 
>>>> on it in the first place. Moving around broken code doesn't automatically 
>>>> fix it.
>>> It's not just about fixing broken code. If you read the ING CIO's
>>> remarks about why they wanted off the mainframe it's not about the
>>> platform. Nobody denies that mainframes are insanely brilliant hardware
>>> platforms. ING wanted to get rid of batch and move towards an event
>>> driven architecture using pub/sub where they can easily deploy loosely
>>> coupled micro-services to provide cutting edge products. The technology
>>> stacks are built on open source such as Kafka, MongoDB, Cassandra, NiFi,
>>> Avro etc.  The retail banking industry has been disrupted by fintechs so
>>> waiting for an overnight batch schedule for settlements is a competitive
>>> disadvantage.  Cracking open and modernizing 50-60 year old COBOL batch
>>> applications is a VERY heavy lift.
>>> 
>>> https://secure-web.cisco.com/1GoiNO6FBPSWW0D9FZYVYixer1jsPeSd_xH-wmi6jMOC-onAkZQ4Pkf3c1UMGWbQeEprnkSWa1xGxz4vvn-LF0jVrCFlVVFZKQJ4Jti8nbQ7QchsOxhwNiwluJrdKkQP2nXXHQH2Ut2NNa9VChfVBIDR7Ak

Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and AWS

How’s the Fintech stocks working for you? Most of them are going under.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Sunday, June 19, 2022, 8:26 PM, David Crayford  wrote:

Did he say that are are you putting words into his mouth? Either way I don’t 
care. He’s been retired for years so his knowledge of the mainframe is frozen 
in time. If you’re not at the coalface you loose touch. 

> On 20 Jun 2022, at 8:19 am, Bill Johnson 
> <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
> 
> Aren’t you the guy who thought Pharmacies weren’t open 24 by 7? Metz is 
> right, if you think the mainframe is a batch machine, you’ve got zero 
> credibility.
> 
> 
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
> 
> 
> On Sunday, June 19, 2022, 4:51 PM, David Crayford  wrote:
> 
>> On 20/06/2022 4:21 am, Bill Johnson wrote:
>> Most mainframes store transactions and process in batch? Are you the same 
>> guy who didn’t know pharmacies are open 24 by 7?
> 
> Go and have a nap Bill. And don't forget to take your meds when you wake up.
> 
> 
>> 
>> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>> 
>> 
>> On Sunday, June 19, 2022, 2:03 PM, David Crayford  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> On 20/06/2022 12:38 am, Seymour J Metz wrote:
>>> Keep in mind that the mainframe can only do batch processing, with input 
>>> from cards. It doesn't support anything like CICS, IMS or Sabre..
>> What have transactional systems like CICS or IMS got to do with
>> real-time, straight-through processing? Most mainframe transactions
>> store data that is later processed by batch, typically overnight. In the
>> case of banking transactions that require inter-bank settlements this
>> can cause delays of several days. In Australia the government mandated
>> the NPP (New Payments Platform) which facilities instant payments using
>> payids, which can be an email address, cellphone numbers etc. The API is
>> a simple REST API using HTTP
>> https://nppa.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/NPP-API-Framework-v4.0-Final.pdf.
>> It's my understanding that no bank implemented NPP on the mainframe.
>>  From the presentations I've seen they used CDC to capture writes and
>> then published events to Kafka, which was fanned out to different
>> micro-services to do fraud detection, payments, push notifications etc.
>> Back in the day straight-through processing was a pipe dream which is
>> why we have overnight batch. It's a relic of applications written
>> decades ago for very different hardware platforms.
>> 
>> 
>>> It's much better to run Linux than to get an IFL, which can only run batch.
>> I have no idea what you mean?
>> 
>>> Cynical? Moi?
>>> 
>>> 
>>> --
>>> Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
>>> http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
>>> 
>>> 
>>> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
>>> David Crayford [dcrayf...@gmail.com]
>>> Sent: Sunday, June 19, 2022 2:36 AM
>>> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
>>> Subject: Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and 
>>> AWS
>>> 
>>> On 19/06/2022 5:23 am, Enzo D'Amato wrote:
>>>> I also agree, but as a non-insider, I wanted to know what others were 
>>>> thinking. I also belive that in most cases, the effort spent trying to get 
>>>> off the mainframe would be better spent actually fixing the code running 
>>>> on it in the first place. Moving around broken code doesn't automatically 
>>>> fix it.
>>> It's not just about fixing broken code. If you read the ING CIO's
>>> remarks about why they wanted off the mainframe it's not about the
>>> platform. Nobody denies that mainframes are insanely brilliant hardware
>>> platforms. ING wanted to get rid of batch and move towards an event
>>> driven architecture using pub/sub where they can easily deploy loosely
>>> coupled micro-services to provide cutting edge products. The technology
>>> stacks are built on open source such as Kafka, MongoDB, Cassandra, NiFi,
>>> Avro etc.  The retail banking industry has been disrupted by fintechs so
>>> waiting for an overnight batch schedule for settlements is a competitive
>>> disadvantage.  Cracking open and modernizing 50-60 year old COBOL batch
>>> applications is a VERY heavy lift.
>>> 
>>> https://secure-web.cisco.com/1GoiNO6FBPSWW0D9FZYVYixer1jsPeSd_xH-wmi6jMOC-onAkZQ4Pkf3c1UMGWbQeEprnkSWa1xGxz4vvn-LF0jVrCFlVVFZKQJ4Jti8nbQ7QchsOxhwNiwluJrdKkQP2nXXH

Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and AWS

Did he say that are are you putting words into his mouth? Either way I don’t 
care. He’s been retired for years so his knowledge of the mainframe is frozen 
in time. If you’re not at the coalface you loose touch. 

> On 20 Jun 2022, at 8:19 am, Bill Johnson 
> <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
> 
> Aren’t you the guy who thought Pharmacies weren’t open 24 by 7? Metz is 
> right, if you think the mainframe is a batch machine, you’ve got zero 
> credibility.
> 
> 
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
> 
> 
> On Sunday, June 19, 2022, 4:51 PM, David Crayford  wrote:
> 
>> On 20/06/2022 4:21 am, Bill Johnson wrote:
>> Most mainframes store transactions and process in batch? Are you the same 
>> guy who didn’t know pharmacies are open 24 by 7?
> 
> Go and have a nap Bill. And don't forget to take your meds when you wake up.
> 
> 
>> 
>> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>> 
>> 
>> On Sunday, June 19, 2022, 2:03 PM, David Crayford  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> On 20/06/2022 12:38 am, Seymour J Metz wrote:
>>> Keep in mind that the mainframe can only do batch processing, with input 
>>> from cards. It doesn't support anything like CICS, IMS or Sabre..
>> What have transactional systems like CICS or IMS got to do with
>> real-time, straight-through processing? Most mainframe transactions
>> store data that is later processed by batch, typically overnight. In the
>> case of banking transactions that require inter-bank settlements this
>> can cause delays of several days. In Australia the government mandated
>> the NPP (New Payments Platform) which facilities instant payments using
>> payids, which can be an email address, cellphone numbers etc. The API is
>> a simple REST API using HTTP
>> https://nppa.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/NPP-API-Framework-v4.0-Final.pdf.
>> It's my understanding that no bank implemented NPP on the mainframe.
>>   From the presentations I've seen they used CDC to capture writes and
>> then published events to Kafka, which was fanned out to different
>> micro-services to do fraud detection, payments, push notifications etc.
>> Back in the day straight-through processing was a pipe dream which is
>> why we have overnight batch. It's a relic of applications written
>> decades ago for very different hardware platforms.
>> 
>> 
>>> It's much better to run Linux than to get an IFL, which can only run batch.
>> I have no idea what you mean?
>> 
>>> Cynical? Moi?
>>> 
>>> 
>>> --
>>> Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
>>> http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
>>> 
>>> 
>>> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
>>> David Crayford [dcrayf...@gmail.com]
>>> Sent: Sunday, June 19, 2022 2:36 AM
>>> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
>>> Subject: Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and 
>>> AWS
>>> 
>>> On 19/06/2022 5:23 am, Enzo D'Amato wrote:
>>>> I also agree, but as a non-insider, I wanted to know what others were 
>>>> thinking. I also belive that in most cases, the effort spent trying to get 
>>>> off the mainframe would be better spent actually fixing the code running 
>>>> on it in the first place. Moving around broken code doesn't automatically 
>>>> fix it.
>>> It's not just about fixing broken code. If you read the ING CIO's
>>> remarks about why they wanted off the mainframe it's not about the
>>> platform. Nobody denies that mainframes are insanely brilliant hardware
>>> platforms. ING wanted to get rid of batch and move towards an event
>>> driven architecture using pub/sub where they can easily deploy loosely
>>> coupled micro-services to provide cutting edge products. The technology
>>> stacks are built on open source such as Kafka, MongoDB, Cassandra, NiFi,
>>> Avro etc.  The retail banking industry has been disrupted by fintechs so
>>> waiting for an overnight batch schedule for settlements is a competitive
>>> disadvantage.  Cracking open and modernizing 50-60 year old COBOL batch
>>> applications is a VERY heavy lift.
>>> 
>>> https://secure-web.cisco.com/1GoiNO6FBPSWW0D9FZYVYixer1jsPeSd_xH-wmi6jMOC-onAkZQ4Pkf3c1UMGWbQeEprnkSWa1xGxz4vvn-LF0jVrCFlVVFZKQJ4Jti8nbQ7QchsOxhwNiwluJrdKkQP2nXXHQH2Ut2NNa9VChfVBIDR7Akw4ud6_pIXLAFXO5l73Sv-iLZFNU1MWWnLapWhhCKvytdzs7EJTvNZ2qbU8xwCdBEl1UkUuL-jHHZLk6xJPxAadVRWP1nuLz8i5AZrfvDI8u8rZ0V0DT77_Uvu8klHLbL9xe2qaYi1P6a6mc8r9Aj2jot

Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and AWS

Aren’t you the guy who thought Pharmacies weren’t open 24 by 7? Metz is right, 
if you think the mainframe is a batch machine, you’ve got zero credibility.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Sunday, June 19, 2022, 4:51 PM, David Crayford  wrote:

On 20/06/2022 4:21 am, Bill Johnson wrote:
> Most mainframes store transactions and process in batch? Are you the same guy 
> who didn’t know pharmacies are open 24 by 7?

Go and have a nap Bill. And don't forget to take your meds when you wake up.


>
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
>
> On Sunday, June 19, 2022, 2:03 PM, David Crayford  wrote:
>
> On 20/06/2022 12:38 am, Seymour J Metz wrote:
>> Keep in mind that the mainframe can only do batch processing, with input 
>> from cards. It doesn't support anything like CICS, IMS or Sabre..
> What have transactional systems like CICS or IMS got to do with
> real-time, straight-through processing? Most mainframe transactions
> store data that is later processed by batch, typically overnight. In the
> case of banking transactions that require inter-bank settlements this
> can cause delays of several days. In Australia the government mandated
> the NPP (New Payments Platform) which facilities instant payments using
> payids, which can be an email address, cellphone numbers etc. The API is
> a simple REST API using HTTP
> https://nppa.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/NPP-API-Framework-v4.0-Final.pdf.
> It's my understanding that no bank implemented NPP on the mainframe.
>  From the presentations I've seen they used CDC to capture writes and
> then published events to Kafka, which was fanned out to different
> micro-services to do fraud detection, payments, push notifications etc.
> Back in the day straight-through processing was a pipe dream which is
> why we have overnight batch. It's a relic of applications written
> decades ago for very different hardware platforms.
>
>
>> It's much better to run Linux than to get an IFL, which can only run batch.
> I have no idea what you mean?
>
>> Cynical? Moi?
>>
>>
>> --
>> Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
>> http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
>>
>> 
>> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
>> David Crayford [dcrayf...@gmail.com]
>> Sent: Sunday, June 19, 2022 2:36 AM
>> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
>> Subject: Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and 
>> AWS
>>
>> On 19/06/2022 5:23 am, Enzo D'Amato wrote:
>>> I also agree, but as a non-insider, I wanted to know what others were 
>>> thinking. I also belive that in most cases, the effort spent trying to get 
>>> off the mainframe would be better spent actually fixing the code running on 
>>> it in the first place. Moving around broken code doesn't automatically fix 
>>> it.
>> It's not just about fixing broken code. If you read the ING CIO's
>> remarks about why they wanted off the mainframe it's not about the
>> platform. Nobody denies that mainframes are insanely brilliant hardware
>> platforms. ING wanted to get rid of batch and move towards an event
>> driven architecture using pub/sub where they can easily deploy loosely
>> coupled micro-services to provide cutting edge products. The technology
>> stacks are built on open source such as Kafka, MongoDB, Cassandra, NiFi,
>> Avro etc.  The retail banking industry has been disrupted by fintechs so
>> waiting for an overnight batch schedule for settlements is a competitive
>> disadvantage.  Cracking open and modernizing 50-60 year old COBOL batch
>> applications is a VERY heavy lift.
>>
>> https://secure-web.cisco.com/1GoiNO6FBPSWW0D9FZYVYixer1jsPeSd_xH-wmi6jMOC-onAkZQ4Pkf3c1UMGWbQeEprnkSWa1xGxz4vvn-LF0jVrCFlVVFZKQJ4Jti8nbQ7QchsOxhwNiwluJrdKkQP2nXXHQH2Ut2NNa9VChfVBIDR7Akw4ud6_pIXLAFXO5l73Sv-iLZFNU1MWWnLapWhhCKvytdzs7EJTvNZ2qbU8xwCdBEl1UkUuL-jHHZLk6xJPxAadVRWP1nuLz8i5AZrfvDI8u8rZ0V0DT77_Uvu8klHLbL9xe2qaYi1P6a6mc8r9Aj2jothGC-CR9cbCgb-JVXupgin9UctH5C_iVMyn_T-9jzZjtNyZDETxb8hXMU-BOuUz89MGu1nniZJ2tvSSN8yh5A6K-_It8fA10UFCfSBhOB0NVkwKL5M8A2BxZ9_e111GnxGK_PAbj0wh5fvU/https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theregister.com%2F2016%2F07%2F01%2Fing_mainframe_strategy%2F
>>  <- read
>> the comments section. It's hilarious :)
>>
>> The doubly whammy is there's a skills crisis slowly unraveling. In the
>> last year we've had 3 key resources move to 3 day weeks with a view to
>> retiring. Replacing highly skilled assembler programmers with deep
>> subsystem knowledge is proving to be difficult. Young people don't want
>> to learn HLASM as they consider it a dead-end. Their pos

Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and AWS


On 20/06/2022 5:47 am, Joe Monk wrote:

"Please elaborate how IMS TM is anything more than a message queue that
processes transactions."

Youre quibbling about form over substance.


I'm asking you to back up your statement.



As an example, NASA uses message queue processing for spacecraft telemetry.


NASA doesn't use IMS.



Joe



On Sun, Jun 19, 2022 at 4:39 PM David Crayford  wrote:


On 20/06/2022 5:27 am, Joe Monk wrote:

"What have transactional systems like CICS or IMS got to do with
real-time, straight-through processing? Most mainframe transactions
store data that is later processed by batch, typically overnight."

If you think CICS and IMS are transactional only, youre stuck in the

'80s.

I've spent the last 20+ years working on ISV products for IMS and CICS.
Please elaborate how IMS TM is anything more than a message queue that
processes
transactions. If you want to throw IMS Connect into the mix then please
comment as I have in depth knowledge of the architecture as I was on dev
on the
IMS Connect Extensions product.


As an example, ICCF on VSE uses CICS as the TP Monitor. Tell me that
writing code, storing it in a library, compiling, etc. are not

"real-time".
Awesome :/

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN


--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN


--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and AWS

2022-06-19 Thread Joe Monk

"Please elaborate how IMS TM is anything more than a message queue that
processes transactions."

Youre quibbling about form over substance.

As an example, NASA uses message queue processing for spacecraft telemetry.

Joe



On Sun, Jun 19, 2022 at 4:39 PM David Crayford  wrote:

> On 20/06/2022 5:27 am, Joe Monk wrote:
> > "What have transactional systems like CICS or IMS got to do with
> > real-time, straight-through processing? Most mainframe transactions
> > store data that is later processed by batch, typically overnight."
> >
> > If you think CICS and IMS are transactional only, youre stuck in the
> '80s.
>
> I've spent the last 20+ years working on ISV products for IMS and CICS.
> Please elaborate how IMS TM is anything more than a message queue that
> processes
> transactions. If you want to throw IMS Connect into the mix then please
> comment as I have in depth knowledge of the architecture as I was on dev
> on the
> IMS Connect Extensions product.
>
> > As an example, ICCF on VSE uses CICS as the TP Monitor. Tell me that
> > writing code, storing it in a library, compiling, etc. are not
> "real-time".
> Awesome :/
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and AWS


On 20/06/2022 5:27 am, Joe Monk wrote:

"What have transactional systems like CICS or IMS got to do with
real-time, straight-through processing? Most mainframe transactions
store data that is later processed by batch, typically overnight."

If you think CICS and IMS are transactional only, youre stuck in the '80s.


I've spent the last 20+ years working on ISV products for IMS and CICS. 
Please elaborate how IMS TM is anything more than a message queue that 
processes
transactions. If you want to throw IMS Connect into the mix then please 
comment as I have in depth knowledge of the architecture as I was on dev 
on the

IMS Connect Extensions product.


As an example, ICCF on VSE uses CICS as the TP Monitor. Tell me that
writing code, storing it in a library, compiling, etc. are not "real-time".

Awesome :/

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and AWS

2022-06-19 Thread Joe Monk

"What have transactional systems like CICS or IMS got to do with
real-time, straight-through processing? Most mainframe transactions
store data that is later processed by batch, typically overnight."

If you think CICS and IMS are transactional only, youre stuck in the '80s.
As an example, ICCF on VSE uses CICS as the TP Monitor. Tell me that
writing code, storing it in a library, compiling, etc. are not "real-time".

Joe

On Sun, Jun 19, 2022 at 1:03 PM David Crayford  wrote:

> On 20/06/2022 12:38 am, Seymour J Metz wrote:
> > Keep in mind that the mainframe can only do batch processing, with input
> from cards. It doesn't support anything like CICS, IMS or Sabre..
>
> What have transactional systems like CICS or IMS got to do with
> real-time, straight-through processing? Most mainframe transactions
> store data that is later processed by batch, typically overnight. In the
> case of banking transactions that require inter-bank settlements this
> can cause delays of several days. In Australia the government mandated
> the NPP (New Payments Platform) which facilities instant payments using
> payids, which can be an email address, cellphone numbers etc. The API is
> a simple REST API using HTTP
>
> https://nppa.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/NPP-API-Framework-v4.0-Final.pdf.
>
> It's my understanding that no bank implemented NPP on the mainframe.
>  From the presentations I've seen they used CDC to capture writes and
> then published events to Kafka, which was fanned out to different
> micro-services to do fraud detection, payments, push notifications etc.
> Back in the day straight-through processing was a pipe dream which is
> why we have overnight batch. It's a relic of applications written
> decades ago for very different hardware platforms.
>
>
> > It's much better to run Linux than to get an IFL, which can only run
> batch.
>
> I have no idea what you mean?
>
> >
> > Cynical? Moi?
> >
> >
> > --
> > Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
> > http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
> >
> > 
> > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on
> behalf of David Crayford [dcrayf...@gmail.com]
> > Sent: Sunday, June 19, 2022 2:36 AM
> > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> > Subject: Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM
> and AWS
> >
> > On 19/06/2022 5:23 am, Enzo D'Amato wrote:
> >> I also agree, but as a non-insider, I wanted to know what others were
> thinking. I also belive that in most cases, the effort spent trying to get
> off the mainframe would be better spent actually fixing the code running on
> it in the first place. Moving around broken code doesn't automatically fix
> it.
> > It's not just about fixing broken code. If you read the ING CIO's
> > remarks about why they wanted off the mainframe it's not about the
> > platform. Nobody denies that mainframes are insanely brilliant hardware
> > platforms. ING wanted to get rid of batch and move towards an event
> > driven architecture using pub/sub where they can easily deploy loosely
> > coupled micro-services to provide cutting edge products. The technology
> > stacks are built on open source such as Kafka, MongoDB, Cassandra, NiFi,
> > Avro etc.  The retail banking industry has been disrupted by fintechs so
> > waiting for an overnight batch schedule for settlements is a competitive
> > disadvantage.  Cracking open and modernizing 50-60 year old COBOL batch
> > applications is a VERY heavy lift.
> >
> >
> https://secure-web.cisco.com/1GoiNO6FBPSWW0D9FZYVYixer1jsPeSd_xH-wmi6jMOC-onAkZQ4Pkf3c1UMGWbQeEprnkSWa1xGxz4vvn-LF0jVrCFlVVFZKQJ4Jti8nbQ7QchsOxhwNiwluJrdKkQP2nXXHQH2Ut2NNa9VChfVBIDR7Akw4ud6_pIXLAFXO5l73Sv-iLZFNU1MWWnLapWhhCKvytdzs7EJTvNZ2qbU8xwCdBEl1UkUuL-jHHZLk6xJPxAadVRWP1nuLz8i5AZrfvDI8u8rZ0V0DT77_Uvu8klHLbL9xe2qaYi1P6a6mc8r9Aj2jothGC-CR9cbCgb-JVXupgin9UctH5C_iVMyn_T-9jzZjtNyZDETxb8hXMU-BOuUz89MGu1nniZJ2tvSSN8yh5A6K-_It8fA10UFCfSBhOB0NVkwKL5M8A2BxZ9_e111GnxGK_PAbj0wh5fvU/https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theregister.com%2F2016%2F07%2F01%2Fing_mainframe_strategy%2F
> <- read
> > the comments section. It's hilarious :)
> >
> > The doubly whammy is there's a skills crisis slowly unraveling. In the
> > last year we've had 3 key resources move to 3 day weeks with a view to
> > retiring. Replacing highly skilled assembler programmers with deep
> > subsystem knowledge is proving to be difficult. Young people don't want
> > to learn HLASM as they consider it a dead-end. Their position is "why
> > invest 3-4 years learning a language that is useless if you move to
>

Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and AWS


On 20/06/2022 4:21 am, Bill Johnson wrote:

Most mainframes store transactions and process in batch? Are you the same guy 
who didn’t know pharmacies are open 24 by 7?


Go and have a nap Bill. And don't forget to take your meds when you wake up.




Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Sunday, June 19, 2022, 2:03 PM, David Crayford  wrote:

On 20/06/2022 12:38 am, Seymour J Metz wrote:

Keep in mind that the mainframe can only do batch processing, with input from 
cards. It doesn't support anything like CICS, IMS or Sabre..

What have transactional systems like CICS or IMS got to do with
real-time, straight-through processing? Most mainframe transactions
store data that is later processed by batch, typically overnight. In the
case of banking transactions that require inter-bank settlements this
can cause delays of several days. In Australia the government mandated
the NPP (New Payments Platform) which facilities instant payments using
payids, which can be an email address, cellphone numbers etc. The API is
a simple REST API using HTTP
https://nppa.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/NPP-API-Framework-v4.0-Final.pdf.
It's my understanding that no bank implemented NPP on the mainframe.
  From the presentations I've seen they used CDC to capture writes and
then published events to Kafka, which was fanned out to different
micro-services to do fraud detection, payments, push notifications etc.
Back in the day straight-through processing was a pipe dream which is
why we have overnight batch. It's a relic of applications written
decades ago for very different hardware platforms.



It's much better to run Linux than to get an IFL, which can only run batch.

I have no idea what you mean?


Cynical? Moi?


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
David Crayford [dcrayf...@gmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, June 19, 2022 2:36 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and AWS

On 19/06/2022 5:23 am, Enzo D'Amato wrote:

I also agree, but as a non-insider, I wanted to know what others were thinking. 
I also belive that in most cases, the effort spent trying to get off the 
mainframe would be better spent actually fixing the code running on it in the 
first place. Moving around broken code doesn't automatically fix it.

It's not just about fixing broken code. If you read the ING CIO's
remarks about why they wanted off the mainframe it's not about the
platform. Nobody denies that mainframes are insanely brilliant hardware
platforms. ING wanted to get rid of batch and move towards an event
driven architecture using pub/sub where they can easily deploy loosely
coupled micro-services to provide cutting edge products. The technology
stacks are built on open source such as Kafka, MongoDB, Cassandra, NiFi,
Avro etc.  The retail banking industry has been disrupted by fintechs so
waiting for an overnight batch schedule for settlements is a competitive
disadvantage.  Cracking open and modernizing 50-60 year old COBOL batch
applications is a VERY heavy lift.

https://secure-web.cisco.com/1GoiNO6FBPSWW0D9FZYVYixer1jsPeSd_xH-wmi6jMOC-onAkZQ4Pkf3c1UMGWbQeEprnkSWa1xGxz4vvn-LF0jVrCFlVVFZKQJ4Jti8nbQ7QchsOxhwNiwluJrdKkQP2nXXHQH2Ut2NNa9VChfVBIDR7Akw4ud6_pIXLAFXO5l73Sv-iLZFNU1MWWnLapWhhCKvytdzs7EJTvNZ2qbU8xwCdBEl1UkUuL-jHHZLk6xJPxAadVRWP1nuLz8i5AZrfvDI8u8rZ0V0DT77_Uvu8klHLbL9xe2qaYi1P6a6mc8r9Aj2jothGC-CR9cbCgb-JVXupgin9UctH5C_iVMyn_T-9jzZjtNyZDETxb8hXMU-BOuUz89MGu1nniZJ2tvSSN8yh5A6K-_It8fA10UFCfSBhOB0NVkwKL5M8A2BxZ9_e111GnxGK_PAbj0wh5fvU/https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theregister.com%2F2016%2F07%2F01%2Fing_mainframe_strategy%2F
 <- read
the comments section. It's hilarious :)

The doubly whammy is there's a skills crisis slowly unraveling. In the
last year we've had 3 key resources move to 3 day weeks with a view to
retiring. Replacing highly skilled assembler programmers with deep
subsystem knowledge is proving to be difficult. Young people don't want
to learn HLASM as they consider it a dead-end. Their position is "why
invest 3-4 years learning a language that is useless if you move to
another industry?" I can't comment about COBOL application developers.

In 10 years time I expect the mainframe to be alive and kicking and
significantly modernized. The small/medium shops will probably be all
gone. When I first moved to my current town in 1998 there were 25-30
mainframe sites. Now there are 3 and 1 is on life support. One of our
customers re-platformed their CICS/COBOL/Batch applications from a z9 to
a single blade server. It doesn't make any sense financially for a small
site to run a mainframe.
https://secure-web.cisco.com/1-2iTgedz9DPApFopeywjfCeLAkb4kS8D5gFCEDU1FxvGiDWA4ou6pqJyb1d_hBAvGUBtcA89RrAylX3opaG2YEyDaGkIhp

Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and AWS

Most mainframes store transactions and process in batch? Are you the same guy 
who didn’t know pharmacies are open 24 by 7? 


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Sunday, June 19, 2022, 2:03 PM, David Crayford  wrote:

On 20/06/2022 12:38 am, Seymour J Metz wrote:
> Keep in mind that the mainframe can only do batch processing, with input from 
> cards. It doesn't support anything like CICS, IMS or Sabre..

What have transactional systems like CICS or IMS got to do with 
real-time, straight-through processing? Most mainframe transactions 
store data that is later processed by batch, typically overnight. In the 
case of banking transactions that require inter-bank settlements this 
can cause delays of several days. In Australia the government mandated 
the NPP (New Payments Platform) which facilities instant payments using 
payids, which can be an email address, cellphone numbers etc. The API is 
a simple REST API using HTTP 
https://nppa.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/NPP-API-Framework-v4.0-Final.pdf.
 
It's my understanding that no bank implemented NPP on the mainframe. 
 From the presentations I've seen they used CDC to capture writes and 
then published events to Kafka, which was fanned out to different 
micro-services to do fraud detection, payments, push notifications etc. 
Back in the day straight-through processing was a pipe dream which is 
why we have overnight batch. It's a relic of applications written 
decades ago for very different hardware platforms.


> It's much better to run Linux than to get an IFL, which can only run batch.

I have no idea what you mean?

>
> Cynical? Moi?
>
>
> --
> Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
> http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
>
> 
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
> David Crayford [dcrayf...@gmail.com]
> Sent: Sunday, June 19, 2022 2:36 AM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and 
> AWS
>
> On 19/06/2022 5:23 am, Enzo D'Amato wrote:
>> I also agree, but as a non-insider, I wanted to know what others were 
>> thinking. I also belive that in most cases, the effort spent trying to get 
>> off the mainframe would be better spent actually fixing the code running on 
>> it in the first place. Moving around broken code doesn't automatically fix 
>> it.
> It's not just about fixing broken code. If you read the ING CIO's
> remarks about why they wanted off the mainframe it's not about the
> platform. Nobody denies that mainframes are insanely brilliant hardware
> platforms. ING wanted to get rid of batch and move towards an event
> driven architecture using pub/sub where they can easily deploy loosely
> coupled micro-services to provide cutting edge products. The technology
> stacks are built on open source such as Kafka, MongoDB, Cassandra, NiFi,
> Avro etc.  The retail banking industry has been disrupted by fintechs so
> waiting for an overnight batch schedule for settlements is a competitive
> disadvantage.  Cracking open and modernizing 50-60 year old COBOL batch
> applications is a VERY heavy lift.
>
> https://secure-web.cisco.com/1GoiNO6FBPSWW0D9FZYVYixer1jsPeSd_xH-wmi6jMOC-onAkZQ4Pkf3c1UMGWbQeEprnkSWa1xGxz4vvn-LF0jVrCFlVVFZKQJ4Jti8nbQ7QchsOxhwNiwluJrdKkQP2nXXHQH2Ut2NNa9VChfVBIDR7Akw4ud6_pIXLAFXO5l73Sv-iLZFNU1MWWnLapWhhCKvytdzs7EJTvNZ2qbU8xwCdBEl1UkUuL-jHHZLk6xJPxAadVRWP1nuLz8i5AZrfvDI8u8rZ0V0DT77_Uvu8klHLbL9xe2qaYi1P6a6mc8r9Aj2jothGC-CR9cbCgb-JVXupgin9UctH5C_iVMyn_T-9jzZjtNyZDETxb8hXMU-BOuUz89MGu1nniZJ2tvSSN8yh5A6K-_It8fA10UFCfSBhOB0NVkwKL5M8A2BxZ9_e111GnxGK_PAbj0wh5fvU/https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theregister.com%2F2016%2F07%2F01%2Fing_mainframe_strategy%2F
>  <- read
> the comments section. It's hilarious :)
>
> The doubly whammy is there's a skills crisis slowly unraveling. In the
> last year we've had 3 key resources move to 3 day weeks with a view to
> retiring. Replacing highly skilled assembler programmers with deep
> subsystem knowledge is proving to be difficult. Young people don't want
> to learn HLASM as they consider it a dead-end. Their position is "why
> invest 3-4 years learning a language that is useless if you move to
> another industry?" I can't comment about COBOL application developers.
>
> In 10 years time I expect the mainframe to be alive and kicking and
> significantly modernized. The small/medium shops will probably be all
> gone. When I first moved to my current town in 1998 there were 25-30
> mainframe sites. Now there are 3 and 1 is on life support. One of our
> customers re-platformed their CICS/COBOL/Batch applications from a z9 to
> a single blade server. It doesn't make any sense fi

Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and AWS


On 20/06/2022 2:53 am, Seymour J Metz wrote:

Systems like CICS *are* real-time, straight-through, although they can certainly create 
data for later batch processing. The point is that for half a century 
"mainframe" has included a wealth of applications that were not batch, and that 
the point of transactional subsytems was to get away from batch. There may be many valid 
reasons for getting away from a mainframe, but the belief that you need to do so in order 
to get away from batch is insane


You're still missing the point. CICS is a transaction monitor. I'm 
talking about real-time, continuous data feeds using middleware like 
Kafka as the central nervous system. This is a new concept and very 
different to traditional transaction processing + batch. Watch 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_rYEpRrdrA which is a microcosm of what 
many mainframe sites are doing. Almost every bank that I know of who run 
mainframes are doing something similar.





Similarly, the desire to use new APIs that are already available on the 
mainframe does not explain the desire to leave.


What APIs are you referring to?




--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
David Crayford [dcrayf...@gmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, June 19, 2022 2:02 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and AWS

On 20/06/2022 12:38 am, Seymour J Metz wrote:

Keep in mind that the mainframe can only do batch processing, with input from 
cards. It doesn't support anything like CICS, IMS or Sabre..

What have transactional systems like CICS or IMS got to do with
real-time, straight-through processing? Most mainframe transactions
store data that is later processed by batch, typically overnight. In the
case of banking transactions that require inter-bank settlements this
can cause delays of several days. In Australia the government mandated
the NPP (New Payments Platform) which facilities instant payments using
payids, which can be an email address, cellphone numbers etc. The API is
a simple REST API using HTTP
https://secure-web.cisco.com/1sBq5wh7NBIBtcLlnoe7mev6AZm4hzTAbw1IPjJa9kH6InoJ3U_Zwg7o9Mx_hc9VvcqSkO2GzjUCct8uA5cgnRrFTDuTMQtKKkcfMvJDb1lG83vYcBEiuvMNdKd-AF1d2oturWYl8cZaHKzA-Pdj-pyq3tHgfdJ5klsvrizH8LlkD_HYXieEshsP0famNedXtmoeOw5Urs-J_juVmfWlBLkL5DnxoSvjxKXs3irUVXLx3kIeGvCnSoZwaEeOhIw9o54Tm07SLXThtFfQSMhbhzK-GX34THADQG95_2Wf5Wm7VVHzxBSLvNCP4OVR5cUH1Blor-f81GcfMVs_XxpJ2-Z4_b4kClC7HDOWZLKqZGtSoXtnAaIXHkAeq2Pb3Q-S86UNOkXncePZm3DFQsAVpYKVN1zSAt5Hr9wo_ll03r2pE-zuCf5lLvXbyW6SSnZG_/https%3A%2F%2Fnppa.com.au%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2020%2F10%2FNPP-API-Framework-v4.0-Final.pdf.
It's my understanding that no bank implemented NPP on the mainframe.
  From the presentations I've seen they used CDC to capture writes and
then published events to Kafka, which was fanned out to different
micro-services to do fraud detection, payments, push notifications etc.
Back in the day straight-through processing was a pipe dream which is
why we have overnight batch. It's a relic of applications written
decades ago for very different hardware platforms.



It's much better to run Linux than to get an IFL, which can only run batch.

I have no idea what you mean?


Cynical? Moi?


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
David Crayford [dcrayf...@gmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, June 19, 2022 2:36 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and AWS

On 19/06/2022 5:23 am, Enzo D'Amato wrote:

I also agree, but as a non-insider, I wanted to know what others were thinking. 
I also belive that in most cases, the effort spent trying to get off the 
mainframe would be better spent actually fixing the code running on it in the 
first place. Moving around broken code doesn't automatically fix it.

It's not just about fixing broken code. If you read the ING CIO's
remarks about why they wanted off the mainframe it's not about the
platform. Nobody denies that mainframes are insanely brilliant hardware
platforms. ING wanted to get rid of batch and move towards an event
driven architecture using pub/sub where they can easily deploy loosely
coupled micro-services to provide cutting edge products. The technology
stacks are built on open source such as Kafka, MongoDB, Cassandra, NiFi,
Avro etc.  The retail banking industry has been disrupted by fintechs so
waiting for an overnight batch schedule for settlements is a competitive
disadvantage.  Cracking open and modernizing 50-60 year old COBOL batch
applications is a VERY heavy lift.

https://secure-web.cisco.com/1GoiNO6FBPSW

Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and AWS

Systems like CICS *are* real-time, straight-through, although they can 
certainly create data for later batch processing. The point is that for half a 
century "mainframe" has included a wealth of applications that were not batch, 
and that the point of transactional subsytems was to get away from batch. There 
may be many valid reasons for getting away from a mainframe, but the belief 
that you need to do so in order to get away from batch is insane.

Similarly, the desire to use new APIs that are already available on the 
mainframe does not explain the desire to leave.

--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3

From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
David Crayford [dcrayf...@gmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, June 19, 2022 2:02 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and AWS

On 20/06/2022 12:38 am, Seymour J Metz wrote:
> Keep in mind that the mainframe can only do batch processing, with input from 
> cards. It doesn't support anything like CICS, IMS or Sabre..

What have transactional systems like CICS or IMS got to do with
real-time, straight-through processing? Most mainframe transactions
store data that is later processed by batch, typically overnight. In the
case of banking transactions that require inter-bank settlements this
can cause delays of several days. In Australia the government mandated
the NPP (New Payments Platform) which facilities instant payments using
payids, which can be an email address, cellphone numbers etc. The API is
a simple REST API using HTTP
https://secure-web.cisco.com/1sBq5wh7NBIBtcLlnoe7mev6AZm4hzTAbw1IPjJa9kH6InoJ3U_Zwg7o9Mx_hc9VvcqSkO2GzjUCct8uA5cgnRrFTDuTMQtKKkcfMvJDb1lG83vYcBEiuvMNdKd-AF1d2oturWYl8cZaHKzA-Pdj-pyq3tHgfdJ5klsvrizH8LlkD_HYXieEshsP0famNedXtmoeOw5Urs-J_juVmfWlBLkL5DnxoSvjxKXs3irUVXLx3kIeGvCnSoZwaEeOhIw9o54Tm07SLXThtFfQSMhbhzK-GX34THADQG95_2Wf5Wm7VVHzxBSLvNCP4OVR5cUH1Blor-f81GcfMVs_XxpJ2-Z4_b4kClC7HDOWZLKqZGtSoXtnAaIXHkAeq2Pb3Q-S86UNOkXncePZm3DFQsAVpYKVN1zSAt5Hr9wo_ll03r2pE-zuCf5lLvXbyW6SSnZG_/https%3A%2F%2Fnppa.com.au%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2020%2F10%2FNPP-API-Framework-v4.0-Final.pdf.
It's my understanding that no bank implemented NPP on the mainframe.
 From the presentations I've seen they used CDC to capture writes and
then published events to Kafka, which was fanned out to different
micro-services to do fraud detection, payments, push notifications etc.
Back in the day straight-through processing was a pipe dream which is
why we have overnight batch. It's a relic of applications written
decades ago for very different hardware platforms.

> It's much better to run Linux than to get an IFL, which can only run batch.

I have no idea what you mean?

>
> Cynical? Moi?
>
>
> --
> Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
> http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
>
> 
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
> David Crayford [dcrayf...@gmail.com]
> Sent: Sunday, June 19, 2022 2:36 AM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and 
> AWS
>
> On 19/06/2022 5:23 am, Enzo D'Amato wrote:
>> I also agree, but as a non-insider, I wanted to know what others were 
>> thinking. I also belive that in most cases, the effort spent trying to get 
>> off the mainframe would be better spent actually fixing the code running on 
>> it in the first place. Moving around broken code doesn't automatically fix 
>> it.
> It's not just about fixing broken code. If you read the ING CIO's
> remarks about why they wanted off the mainframe it's not about the
> platform. Nobody denies that mainframes are insanely brilliant hardware
> platforms. ING wanted to get rid of batch and move towards an event
> driven architecture using pub/sub where they can easily deploy loosely
> coupled micro-services to provide cutting edge products. The technology
> stacks are built on open source such as Kafka, MongoDB, Cassandra, NiFi,
> Avro etc.  The retail banking industry has been disrupted by fintechs so
> waiting for an overnight batch schedule for settlements is a competitive
> disadvantage.  Cracking open and modernizing 50-60 year old COBOL batch
> applications is a VERY heavy lift.
>
> https://secure-web.cisco.com/1GoiNO6FBPSWW0D9FZYVYixer1jsPeSd_xH-wmi6jMOC-onAkZQ4Pkf3c1UMGWbQeEprnkSWa1xGxz4vvn-LF0jVrCFlVVFZKQJ4Jti8nbQ7QchsOxhwNiwluJrdKkQP2nXXHQH2Ut2NNa9VChfVBIDR7Akw4ud6_pIXLAFXO5l73Sv-iLZFNU1MWWnLapWhhCKvytdzs7EJTvNZ2qbU8xwCdBEl1UkUuL-jHHZLk6xJPxAadVRWP1nuLz8i5AZrfvDI8u8rZ0V0DT77_Uvu8klHLbL9xe2qaYi1P6a6mc8r9Aj2jothGC-CR9cbCgb-JVXupgin9UctH5C_iVMyn_T-9jzZjtNyZDETxb8hXMU-BOuUz89MGu1nniZJ2tvSSN8yh5A6K-_It8fA10UFCfSBhOB0NVkwKL5M8A2BxZ9_e111GnxGK_PAb

Re: Debit vs Credit card for cash at ATM? [was: RE: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and AWS]

2022-06-19 Thread Bob Bridges

It was at length, wasn't it?  Sorry, I just felt I had to explain how I got
into the weird habit.

You must be right; it happens I just learned that my current credit score,
at least until last night, was pretty high.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* The federal budget deficit continued to worsen, despite the concerted
effort of virtually every elected official in Washington -- Republican or
Democrat -- to spend more money.  -Dave Barry, 2004 in Review */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of
Phil Smith III
Sent: Sunday, June 19, 2022 13:28

Right, with low interest rates on bank accounts (and you're not prepaying
enough to be worth investing) the "borrowing" is insignificant. This is a
tried-and-true method of restoring credit. It also "cheats" the system
(yay!) by lowering your debt-to-credit ratio: each month when the various
folks look at your credit, they see (obviously I'm making up these numbers,
and ignoring things like mortgage, which I believe factor in but obviously
very differently from unsecured credit card debt):

Credit limit: $10K
Credit card balance: -$1K

That's obviously a VERY positive net debt-to-credit ratio, and works in your
favor. I look at my credit rating occasionally, and it varies by a few
points. This is often directly dependent on how much I've spent recently,
even though I NEVER carry a balance. That's because the various folks who
report it (I have a couple of cards that do it for free) look at me at
different times. So if they happen to pick a day just after my primary card
balance was paid, I look better to them. When we had roof/siding done 10
years ago and put it all on cards (yay points!), it went down noticeably the
next month, then back up.

Net: I see your approach as a plus for you all 'round. You're getting
whatever other benefits the card offers, not having to use debit (which is
riskier, since it has less protections both in terms of breach and against
the merchant not delivering), and raising your credit score-all at a cost of
a buck or two a month in "lost" interest, max!

--- Bob Bridges wrote at length, ending with:
> I simply put a few thousand on the card, as though it was a pre-paid.
The
> credit limit is back up to a usable level now, but I'm still in the habit:
I
> keep a negative balance on the card.

>Yeah, yeah, I know they're profiting from "borrowing" my money.  But I pay
the
> same either way, so I can't see that it makes a difference to me.  Are
there
> disadvantages I'm missing?

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and AWS

2022-06-19 Thread Charles Mills

@Enzo, don't say I didn't warn you. 

Charles

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
Behalf Of Seymour J Metz
Sent: Sunday, June 19, 2022 9:39 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and
AWS

Keep in mind that the mainframe can only do batch processing, with input
from cards. It doesn't support anything like CICS, IMS or Sabre.. It's much
better to run Linux than to get an IFL, which can only run batch.

Cynical? Moi?

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and AWS

2022-06-19 Thread Charles Mills

Yeah, after I wrote that I thought perhaps I was going off half-cocked.

The fact is still, however, that the *effective* exposure is $zero. You can
make your financial decisions as though it were otherwise, of course; that
is your privilege.

Charles

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
Behalf Of Seymour J Metz
Sent: Sunday, June 19, 2022 11:08 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and
AWS

No, the limit for a debit card is $500.00. Perhaps you're thinking of a
credit card, for which the limit is $50.00.

Again, that's why I don't and won't have a debit card.

--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3

From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of
Charles Mills [charl...@mcn.org]
Sent: Friday, June 17, 2022 6:26 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and
AWS

As Phil says (1) the limit is $50, not $500; and (2) for all practical
purposes the limit is $0. Does anyone here know anyone who has ever gotten
dinged for more than $0?

Charles

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
Behalf Of Seymour J Metz
Sent: Friday, June 17, 2022 2:34 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and
AWS

Plus even if the fraud was by an employee issuing the card, you're still on
the hook. Thanks but no thanks.

--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3

From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of
Bill Johnson [0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
Sent: Friday, June 17, 2022 5:28 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and
AWS

The debit card loss is max $500 as long as you report it stolen within 60
days. After 60, unlimited. Agree with you about never having one.

https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fconsumer.f
%2F&data=05%7C01%7Csmetz3%40gmu.edu%7Ca6ba78cd639440f5dde208da50b07e08%7
C9e857255df574c47a0c00546460380cb%7C0%7C0%7C637911016213051643%7CUnknown%7CT
WFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3
D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=gTyEYxT9DiX%2BJsUBN4XxMju2XyJe9SaVxgGPOI%2F0AhE%
3D&reserved=0
tc.gov%2Farticles%2Flost-or-stolen-credit-atm-debit-cards%23limit&data=0
5%7C01%7Csmetz3%40gmu.edu%7C125d22a6b7324b05640908da50a84fd6%7C9e857255df574
c47a0c00546460380cb%7C0%7C0%7C637910981072007504%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJ
WIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C
%7C&sdata=ugEJ53tbY1rmlt3mS25zlEWkLfmwQjvT35Vryv5DCsc%3D&reserved=0

Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone

On Friday, June 17, 2022, 5:20 PM, Seymour J Metz  wrote:

In the US, under certain circumstances, there is a $50 cap on fraud losses
with credit cards but the cap for debit cards is $500. That's why I don't
have a debit card and don't plan to eveer have one, absent a change in the
law.

--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3

From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of
Bill Johnson [0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
Sent: Friday, June 17, 2022 2:38 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and
AWS

Ive had at least a dozen credit cards compromised in the last 20 years.
Including JPM. So much for the great non mainframe security & fraud
protection. With credit cards, Im not on the hook for anything, and they
send me a new card overnight. Not true of debit cards. Your losses can be
infinite.

I get hundreds of spam emails on Yahoo daily. But, its not my main email
service. Its disposable. No fear whatsoever.

Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone

On Friday, June 17, 2022, 2:28 PM, David Crayford 
wrote:

On 18/06/2022 2:20 am, Bill Johnson wrote:
> Here you go. Mainframe jobs you can apply for with JPM.

LOLZ! What's that got to do with anything?

>
>
https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.linked
%2F&data=05%7C01%7Csmetz3%40gmu.edu%7Ca6ba78cd639440f5dde208da50b07e08%7
C9e857255df574c47a0c00546460380cb%7C0%7C0%7C637911016213051643%7CUnknown%7CT
WFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3
D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=XwB866Ef5SKaUTXOTcxUhmu3aEkF%2BGxW15WEtHQo1Rk%3D
&reserved=0
in.com%2Fjobs%2Fjpmorgan-chase-mainframe-jobs&data=05%7C01%7Csmetz3%40gm
u.edu%7C125d22a6b7324b05640908da50a84fd6%7C9e857255df574c47a0c00546460380cb%
7C0%7C0%7C637910981072007504%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJ
Q

Re: Debit vs Credit card for cash at ATM? [was: RE: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and AWS]

That $50 cap is for credit cards; the liability cap for debit cards is ten 
times higher.

No, I've never be dinged, but why put myself at risk?

--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3

From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Phil Smith III [li...@akphs.com]
Sent: Friday, June 17, 2022 6:21 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Debit vs Credit card for cash at ATM? [was: RE: Modernize 
Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and AWS]

Peter Farley wrote:

>Curious - How do you get cash at an ATM directly from your checking or
savings account without a bank debit card?

Right, your ATM card is a debit card. The question is typically whether you
use it as PIN debit, as signature debit, or only as an ATM card.

Signature debit has more protections than PIN debit (if your card has a Visa
or Mastercard logo on it, you can use it as signature debit-that is, like
it's a credit card, swiped/inserted/tapped without entering a PIN) and
settlement happens after the fact, again like credit. If you use it as PIN
debit, settlement is instantaneous, and as others have noted, liability is
higher. The risk that makes some of us never use our ATM cards as debit
cards is that those transactions run on mostly the same rails as credit
transactions, including opportunities for compromise (cf. Target,
Nieman-Marcus, THD, et al.). If you ONLY ever use it with a bank, you're
reducing your risk significantly, since it's Someone Else's Money that will
get drained in a breach.

>Using a credit card to get cash from an ATM usually means drawing "Cash
Advance" money on that card, which is subject to interest costs on the
credit cards I own.

I've used my ATM card occasionally at foreign banks to get cash. Nowadays,
if I were traveling internationally, I might use my corporate credit card
instead, assuming it works for that.

Re card breach liability: yes, there's theoretically a $50 cap; de facto, it
seems to be $0. I've never found anyone who's gotten hit for the $50, and
I've asked hundreds of folks at dozens of presentations I've given on
Payments. I have an unconfirmed theory that if you're a deadbeat-behind on
payments, huge balance, etc.-they might try to ding you, but otherwise
they're not going to risk ticking you off over pennies like that.

Pennies, you say? "Don't those $50 add up?" Not in their eyes: the stats
I've seen show card fraud as pretty stable, around $5-7B/year, against
revenues of $300B (against transactions of $3T-note revenue = ten cents on
the dollar, including late fees, interest, etc.!). Losses to fraud and
bankruptcy are on the order of $50B. So they don't want fraud to increase,
but aren't panicked about it at its current level, really don't care. What
they worry about is that you lose confidence and stop using their cards.

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For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
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Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and AWS

No, the limit for a debit card is $500.00. Perhaps you're thinking of a credit 
card, for which the limit is $50.00.

Again, that's why I don't and won't have a debit card.

--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3

From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Charles Mills [charl...@mcn.org]
Sent: Friday, June 17, 2022 6:26 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and AWS

As Phil says (1) the limit is $50, not $500; and (2) for all practical
purposes the limit is $0. Does anyone here know anyone who has ever gotten
dinged for more than $0?

Charles

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
Behalf Of Seymour J Metz
Sent: Friday, June 17, 2022 2:34 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and
AWS

Plus even if the fraud was by an employee issuing the card, you're still on
the hook. Thanks but no thanks.

--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3

From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of
Bill Johnson [0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
Sent: Friday, June 17, 2022 5:28 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and
AWS

The debit card loss is max $500 as long as you report it stolen within 60
days. After 60, unlimited. Agree with you about never having one.

https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fconsumer.f%2F&data=05%7C01%7Csmetz3%40gmu.edu%7Ca6ba78cd639440f5dde208da50b07e08%7C9e857255df574c47a0c00546460380cb%7C0%7C0%7C637911016213051643%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=gTyEYxT9DiX%2BJsUBN4XxMju2XyJe9SaVxgGPOI%2F0AhE%3D&reserved=0
tc.gov%2Farticles%2Flost-or-stolen-credit-atm-debit-cards%23limit&data=0
5%7C01%7Csmetz3%40gmu.edu%7C125d22a6b7324b05640908da50a84fd6%7C9e857255df574
c47a0c00546460380cb%7C0%7C0%7C637910981072007504%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJ
WIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C
%7C&sdata=ugEJ53tbY1rmlt3mS25zlEWkLfmwQjvT35Vryv5DCsc%3D&reserved=0

Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone

On Friday, June 17, 2022, 5:20 PM, Seymour J Metz  wrote:

In the US, under certain circumstances, there is a $50 cap on fraud losses
with credit cards but the cap for debit cards is $500. That's why I don't
have a debit card and don't plan to eveer have one, absent a change in the
law.

--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3

From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of
Bill Johnson [0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
Sent: Friday, June 17, 2022 2:38 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and
AWS

I’ve had at least a dozen credit cards compromised in the last 20 years.
Including JPM. So much for the great non mainframe security & fraud
protection. With credit cards, I’m not on the hook for anything, and they
send me a new card overnight. Not true of debit cards. Your losses can be
infinite.

I get hundreds of spam emails on Yahoo daily. But, it’s not my main email
service. It’s disposable. No fear whatsoever.

Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone

On Friday, June 17, 2022, 2:28 PM, David Crayford 
wrote:

On 18/06/2022 2:20 am, Bill Johnson wrote:
> Here you go. Mainframe jobs you can apply for with JPM.

LOLZ! What's that got to do with anything?

>
>
https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.linked%2F&data=05%7C01%7Csmetz3%40gmu.edu%7Ca6ba78cd639440f5dde208da50b07e08%7C9e857255df574c47a0c00546460380cb%7C0%7C0%7C637911016213051643%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=XwB866Ef5SKaUTXOTcxUhmu3aEkF%2BGxW15WEtHQo1Rk%3D&reserved=0
in.com%2Fjobs%2Fjpmorgan-chase-mainframe-jobs&data=05%7C01%7Csmetz3%40gm
u.edu%7C125d22a6b7324b05640908da50a84fd6%7C9e857255df574c47a0c00546460380cb%
7C0%7C0%7C637910981072007504%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJ
QIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=784OFW
QQ%2BS%2BASGLIz1JXqr6TlsSN%2FizVE4qA6Clbkns%3D&reserved=0
>
> Be careful however because LinkedIn has some serious scam issues. Likely
because it’s on the cloud.

If you fear the cloud so much then stop using Yahoo mail, your bank
cards, entertainment services such as Netflix. Stock up on rations and
batton down the hatches and bunker down ;)

Do you worry that using a cloud based service like Yahoo mail may
compromise your cellp

Re: Debit vs Credit card for cash at ATM? [was: RE: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and AWS]

I've never had a card cancelled because of breches or early payoff, but I do 
have a card on which I explicitly requested a low limit start cap creeping.

Way back in the 1960s there were still bamks doing accounting on EAM equipment 
or computers programmed to look like old EAM processes. I once overpaaid a CC 
bill and the next month's statement was hand processed. I assume that no bank 
has that particular issue any more.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Bob 
Bridges [robhbrid...@gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, June 17, 2022 9:01 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Debit vs Credit card for cash at ATM? [was: RE: Modernize 
Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and AWS]

I've been caught in only one breach (that I know of).  But that sort of
thing is the main reason I try to use PayPal as much as possible for on-line
shopping.  It's not that I assume PayPay will take better care of my data
than other vendors (though I hope they do) - but I like giving my card to
only one vendor rather than many, thus reducing my risk.

I'd be interested in some knowledgeable cove's comments on something else I
do with my credit card that I don't think I've heard anyone else admit to.
I had a single credit card for years - decades, I guess - and every so often
the issuer raised the credit limit.  ("You've been very responsible with
your card.  Here's a new credit limit:  Go be just a little less
responsible, please, take a vacation or something!")  It got up to I think
$24 000 or thereabouts, and then ten or twelve years back I caught swine flu
and spent some months in the hospital, then some months more in a sort of
rehab facility.  (It was really an old-folks' home, but the point was that
there were PTs there to help me recover, walk again etc).  I wasn't able to
work for almost a year, from Christmas Eve to about Thanksgiving, and for a
while I had to let my credit-card balance rise.

Once I was able to start making payments again, I paid it off pretty quickly
- but the card issuer reduced my available balance every time I paid off
more, then canceled the card in the end.  I was eventually issued a new
card, but with a very low credit limit - and my work used to involve travel,
ie airfare, car rental and hotels.  This card wasn't going to cut it.

It took me a while to realize that the solution was simple: I simply put a
few thousand on the card, as though it was a pre-paid.  The credit limit is
back up to a usable level now, but I'm still in the habit:  I keep a
negative balance on the card.

Yeah, yeah, I know they're profiting from "borrowing" my money.  But I pay
the same either way, so I can't see that it makes a difference to me.  Are
there disadvantages I'm missing?

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* Do not hit at all if it can be avoided, but never hit softly.  -Theodore
Roosevelt */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of
Phil Smith III
Sent: Friday, June 17, 2022 18:21

Re card breach liability: yes, there's theoretically a $50 cap; de facto, it
seems to be $0. I've never found anyone who's gotten hit for the $50, and
I've asked hundreds of folks at dozens of presentations I've given on
Payments. I have an unconfirmed theory that if you're a deadbeat-behind on
payments, huge balance, etc.-they might try to ding you, but otherwise
they're not going to risk ticking you off over pennies like that.

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and AWS


On 20/06/2022 12:38 am, Seymour J Metz wrote:

Keep in mind that the mainframe can only do batch processing, with input from 
cards. It doesn't support anything like CICS, IMS or Sabre..


What have transactional systems like CICS or IMS got to do with 
real-time, straight-through processing? Most mainframe transactions 
store data that is later processed by batch, typically overnight. In the 
case of banking transactions that require inter-bank settlements this 
can cause delays of several days. In Australia the government mandated 
the NPP (New Payments Platform) which facilities instant payments using 
payids, which can be an email address, cellphone numbers etc. The API is 
a simple REST API using HTTP 
https://nppa.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/NPP-API-Framework-v4.0-Final.pdf. 
It's my understanding that no bank implemented NPP on the mainframe. 
From the presentations I've seen they used CDC to capture writes and 
then published events to Kafka, which was fanned out to different 
micro-services to do fraud detection, payments, push notifications etc. 
Back in the day straight-through processing was a pipe dream which is 
why we have overnight batch. It's a relic of applications written 
decades ago for very different hardware platforms.




It's much better to run Linux than to get an IFL, which can only run batch.


I have no idea what you mean?



Cynical? Moi?


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
David Crayford [dcrayf...@gmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, June 19, 2022 2:36 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and AWS

On 19/06/2022 5:23 am, Enzo D'Amato wrote:

I also agree, but as a non-insider, I wanted to know what others were thinking. 
I also belive that in most cases, the effort spent trying to get off the 
mainframe would be better spent actually fixing the code running on it in the 
first place. Moving around broken code doesn't automatically fix it.

It's not just about fixing broken code. If you read the ING CIO's
remarks about why they wanted off the mainframe it's not about the
platform. Nobody denies that mainframes are insanely brilliant hardware
platforms. ING wanted to get rid of batch and move towards an event
driven architecture using pub/sub where they can easily deploy loosely
coupled micro-services to provide cutting edge products. The technology
stacks are built on open source such as Kafka, MongoDB, Cassandra, NiFi,
Avro etc.  The retail banking industry has been disrupted by fintechs so
waiting for an overnight batch schedule for settlements is a competitive
disadvantage.  Cracking open and modernizing 50-60 year old COBOL batch
applications is a VERY heavy lift.

https://secure-web.cisco.com/1GoiNO6FBPSWW0D9FZYVYixer1jsPeSd_xH-wmi6jMOC-onAkZQ4Pkf3c1UMGWbQeEprnkSWa1xGxz4vvn-LF0jVrCFlVVFZKQJ4Jti8nbQ7QchsOxhwNiwluJrdKkQP2nXXHQH2Ut2NNa9VChfVBIDR7Akw4ud6_pIXLAFXO5l73Sv-iLZFNU1MWWnLapWhhCKvytdzs7EJTvNZ2qbU8xwCdBEl1UkUuL-jHHZLk6xJPxAadVRWP1nuLz8i5AZrfvDI8u8rZ0V0DT77_Uvu8klHLbL9xe2qaYi1P6a6mc8r9Aj2jothGC-CR9cbCgb-JVXupgin9UctH5C_iVMyn_T-9jzZjtNyZDETxb8hXMU-BOuUz89MGu1nniZJ2tvSSN8yh5A6K-_It8fA10UFCfSBhOB0NVkwKL5M8A2BxZ9_e111GnxGK_PAbj0wh5fvU/https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theregister.com%2F2016%2F07%2F01%2Fing_mainframe_strategy%2F
 <- read
the comments section. It's hilarious :)

The doubly whammy is there's a skills crisis slowly unraveling. In the
last year we've had 3 key resources move to 3 day weeks with a view to
retiring. Replacing highly skilled assembler programmers with deep
subsystem knowledge is proving to be difficult. Young people don't want
to learn HLASM as they consider it a dead-end. Their position is "why
invest 3-4 years learning a language that is useless if you move to
another industry?" I can't comment about COBOL application developers.

In 10 years time I expect the mainframe to be alive and kicking and
significantly modernized. The small/medium shops will probably be all
gone. When I first moved to my current town in 1998 there were 25-30
mainframe sites. Now there are 3 and 1 is on life support. One of our
customers re-platformed their CICS/COBOL/Batch applications from a z9 to
a single blade server. It doesn't make any sense financially for a small
site to run a mainframe.
https://secure-web.cisco.com/1-2iTgedz9DPApFopeywjfCeLAkb4kS8D5gFCEDU1FxvGiDWA4ou6pqJyb1d_hBAvGUBtcA89RrAylX3opaG2YEyDaGkIhptpRdukdHvdGOJNKn5bruFlKlnigitV6PrV4n-6zInQkhkJJdSriM40VeYiNOpB8Pg3nTa5E6k6TTIOXSfdaiQOGk1Y6EXL4Xtu-wkeXJmwaPEZljVo3KuwR0K75lrsX8fDe2f2CjcjvfrM3ruLG4na4zrAU_pR4DViMh7bKBhJ35a94VHU7GR4Vh_mXKaYwtbhwnRJWR8gVkvYjmB2CjTOIxJE52bNN1-82_fpYopX-kZQntDkR4OKjvj-b1AV9yXlGQ3A-eGFbtuCb0_1t2R9tgZ5MqgMbzxGQKIf78I2U_xq8a9qYywx3_OgfQwbeMgd8fiatdC5CbUSlphDlQfSDw9sOErejC7z/https%3A%2F%2Fwww.itn

Re: Debit vs Credit card for cash at ATM? [was: RE: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and AWS]

2022-06-19 Thread Phil Smith III

Bob Bridges wrote at length, ending with:

>.I simply put a

>few thousand on the card, as though it was a pre-paid.  The credit limit is

>back up to a usable level now, but I'm still in the habit:  I keep a

>negative balance on the card.

 

>Yeah, yeah, I know they're profiting from "borrowing" my money.  But I pay

>the same either way, so I can't see that it makes a difference to me.  Are

>there disadvantages I'm missing?

 

Right, with low interest rates on bank accounts (and you're not prepaying
enough to be worth investing) the "borrowing" is insignificant. This is a
tried-and-true method of restoring credit. It also "cheats" the system
(yay!) by lowering your debt-to-credit ratio: each month when the various
folks look at your credit, they see (obviously I'm making up these numbers,
and ignoring things like mortgage, which I believe factor in but obviously
very differently from unsecured credit card debt):

Credit limit: $10K 
Credit card balance: -$1K

 

That's obviously a VERY positive net debt-to-credit ratio, and works in your
favor. I look at my credit rating occasionally, and it varies by a few
points. This is often directly dependent on how much I've spent recently,
even though I NEVER carry a balance. That's because the various folks who
report it (I have a couple of cards that do it for free) look at me at
different times. So if they happen to pick a day just after my primary card
balance was paid, I look better to them. When we had roof/siding done 10
years ago and put it all on cards (yay points!), it went down noticeably the
next month, then back up.

 

Net: I see your approach as a plus for you all 'round. You're getting
whatever other benefits the card offers, not having to use debit (which is
riskier, since it has less protections both in terms of breach and against
the merchant not delivering), and raising your credit score-all at a cost of
a buck or two a month in "lost" interest, max!

 

...phsiii


--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and AWS

Keep in mind that the mainframe can only do batch processing, with input from 
cards. It doesn't support anything like CICS, IMS or Sabre.. It's much better 
to run Linux than to get an IFL, which can only run batch.

Cynical? Moi?

--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3

From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
David Crayford [dcrayf...@gmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, June 19, 2022 2:36 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and AWS

On 19/06/2022 5:23 am, Enzo D'Amato wrote:
> I also agree, but as a non-insider, I wanted to know what others were 
> thinking. I also belive that in most cases, the effort spent trying to get 
> off the mainframe would be better spent actually fixing the code running on 
> it in the first place. Moving around broken code doesn't automatically fix it.

It's not just about fixing broken code. If you read the ING CIO's
remarks about why they wanted off the mainframe it's not about the
platform. Nobody denies that mainframes are insanely brilliant hardware
platforms. ING wanted to get rid of batch and move towards an event
driven architecture using pub/sub where they can easily deploy loosely
coupled micro-services to provide cutting edge products. The technology
stacks are built on open source such as Kafka, MongoDB, Cassandra, NiFi,
Avro etc.  The retail banking industry has been disrupted by fintechs so
waiting for an overnight batch schedule for settlements is a competitive
disadvantage.  Cracking open and modernizing 50-60 year old COBOL batch
applications is a VERY heavy lift.

https://secure-web.cisco.com/1GoiNO6FBPSWW0D9FZYVYixer1jsPeSd_xH-wmi6jMOC-onAkZQ4Pkf3c1UMGWbQeEprnkSWa1xGxz4vvn-LF0jVrCFlVVFZKQJ4Jti8nbQ7QchsOxhwNiwluJrdKkQP2nXXHQH2Ut2NNa9VChfVBIDR7Akw4ud6_pIXLAFXO5l73Sv-iLZFNU1MWWnLapWhhCKvytdzs7EJTvNZ2qbU8xwCdBEl1UkUuL-jHHZLk6xJPxAadVRWP1nuLz8i5AZrfvDI8u8rZ0V0DT77_Uvu8klHLbL9xe2qaYi1P6a6mc8r9Aj2jothGC-CR9cbCgb-JVXupgin9UctH5C_iVMyn_T-9jzZjtNyZDETxb8hXMU-BOuUz89MGu1nniZJ2tvSSN8yh5A6K-_It8fA10UFCfSBhOB0NVkwKL5M8A2BxZ9_e111GnxGK_PAbj0wh5fvU/https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theregister.com%2F2016%2F07%2F01%2Fing_mainframe_strategy%2F
 <- read
the comments section. It's hilarious :)

The doubly whammy is there's a skills crisis slowly unraveling. In the
last year we've had 3 key resources move to 3 day weeks with a view to
retiring. Replacing highly skilled assembler programmers with deep
subsystem knowledge is proving to be difficult. Young people don't want
to learn HLASM as they consider it a dead-end. Their position is "why
invest 3-4 years learning a language that is useless if you move to
another industry?" I can't comment about COBOL application developers.

In 10 years time I expect the mainframe to be alive and kicking and
significantly modernized. The small/medium shops will probably be all
gone. When I first moved to my current town in 1998 there were 25-30
mainframe sites. Now there are 3 and 1 is on life support. One of our
customers re-platformed their CICS/COBOL/Batch applications from a z9 to
a single blade server. It doesn't make any sense financially for a small
site to run a mainframe.
https://secure-web.cisco.com/1-2iTgedz9DPApFopeywjfCeLAkb4kS8D5gFCEDU1FxvGiDWA4ou6pqJyb1d_hBAvGUBtcA89RrAylX3opaG2YEyDaGkIhptpRdukdHvdGOJNKn5bruFlKlnigitV6PrV4n-6zInQkhkJJdSriM40VeYiNOpB8Pg3nTa5E6k6TTIOXSfdaiQOGk1Y6EXL4Xtu-wkeXJmwaPEZljVo3KuwR0K75lrsX8fDe2f2CjcjvfrM3ruLG4na4zrAU_pR4DViMh7bKBhJ35a94VHU7GR4Vh_mXKaYwtbhwnRJWR8gVkvYjmB2CjTOIxJE52bNN1-82_fpYopX-kZQntDkR4OKjvj-b1AV9yXlGQ3A-eGFbtuCb0_1t2R9tgZ5MqgMbzxGQKIf78I2U_xq8a9qYywx3_OgfQwbeMgd8fiatdC5CbUSlphDlQfSDw9sOErejC7z/https%3A%2F%2Fwww.itnews.com.au%2Fnews%2Fwa-insurance-commission-decommissions-mainframe-322780

>
> Get BlueMail for 
> Android<https://secure-web.cisco.com/1bcgENTOsK8XbQ24q-R3ISXJI_yYDqxq2wHDg7brpU3Np08gk-JU47Zv8dYAGOAWnxVTv-NWRXAx9s4JTmUJU07wHFT67zaiAPG32upxzSYnSiKIM6O3YI79ZGti7V-QdCWRtiBxOjLh3oMxNvzCcJgTTW-HQmmeQii1zDdP-GC1Rs0umn7xhevV0-PazdAun8gOm5P8Ld_gCw2UojSyXNKZKfmsqJPnt96XgISsJy9-_K81O2L5O-GDW2nxM7_C00lPjk0sF0iNqPQKNZAhVr0kk4TCoT4ePDBbBBUCUw6KfhxpkkhmUuo549OfnVRHweKCGYhEm5WE9nw-5khsn01oqKJxbv_y6P4BrO5DGw0QG7NfYwbUflAaNRV_ljL51KqrNoQV0AdEetiWauYmab1O_GjVvCOudxDs52JwrFXbWBbqEqxhU7qQ3TS--F13f/https%3A%2F%2Fbluemail.me>
> On Jun 18, 2022, at 5:13 PM, Charles Mills 
> mailto:charl...@mcn.org>> wrote:
>
> I always like the stories about the companies that are in the eighth year of
> a three-year project to get off the mainframe.
>
> Enzo, my friend, you have just kicked the hornets' nest! You had better
> duck, because the onslaught is coming. "The mainframe is [not] dead" is near
> and dear to the hearts of IBM-MAINers.
>
> Yes, I think the consensus is that the mainframe has a future. IBM seems t

Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and AWS

Bingo. Exactly what I meant. We ran batch and still were available 24 by 7.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Sunday, June 19, 2022, 12:04 PM, Don Leahy  wrote:

Running batch does not preclude 24x7 online availability.

On Sun, Jun 19, 2022 at 09:44 Bill Johnson <
0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

> People still run batch on the mainframe? The ING CEO needs replaced. Last
> shop I worked at we ran very little batch. Because as a health insurance
> company, we needed to have 24 by 7 by 365 online availability or patients
> die.
>
>
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
>
> On Sunday, June 19, 2022, 2:36 AM, David Crayford 
> wrote:
>
> On 19/06/2022 5:23 am, Enzo D'Amato wrote:
> > I also agree, but as a non-insider, I wanted to know what others were
> thinking. I also belive that in most cases, the effort spent trying to get
> off the mainframe would be better spent actually fixing the code running on
> it in the first place. Moving around broken code doesn't automatically fix
> it.
>
> It's not just about fixing broken code. If you read the ING CIO's
> remarks about why they wanted off the mainframe it's not about the
> platform. Nobody denies that mainframes are insanely brilliant hardware
> platforms. ING wanted to get rid of batch and move towards an event
> driven architecture using pub/sub where they can easily deploy loosely
> coupled micro-services to provide cutting edge products. The technology
> stacks are built on open source such as Kafka, MongoDB, Cassandra, NiFi,
> Avro etc.  The retail banking industry has been disrupted by fintechs so
> waiting for an overnight batch schedule for settlements is a competitive
> disadvantage.  Cracking open and modernizing 50-60 year old COBOL batch
> applications is a VERY heavy lift.
>
> https://www.theregister.com/2016/07/01/ing_mainframe_strategy/ <- read
> the comments section. It's hilarious :)
>
> The doubly whammy is there's a skills crisis slowly unraveling. In the
> last year we've had 3 key resources move to 3 day weeks with a view to
> retiring. Replacing highly skilled assembler programmers with deep
> subsystem knowledge is proving to be difficult. Young people don't want
> to learn HLASM as they consider it a dead-end. Their position is "why
> invest 3-4 years learning a language that is useless if you move to
> another industry?" I can't comment about COBOL application developers.
>
> In 10 years time I expect the mainframe to be alive and kicking and
> significantly modernized. The small/medium shops will probably be all
> gone. When I first moved to my current town in 1998 there were 25-30
> mainframe sites. Now there are 3 and 1 is on life support. One of our
> customers re-platformed their CICS/COBOL/Batch applications from a z9 to
> a single blade server. It doesn't make any sense financially for a small
> site to run a mainframe.
>
> https://www.itnews.com.au/news/wa-insurance-commission-decommissions-mainframe-322780
>
> >
> > Get BlueMail for Android<https://bluemail.me>
> > On Jun 18, 2022, at 5:13 PM, Charles Mills  charl...@mcn.org>> wrote:
> >
> > I always like the stories about the companies that are in the eighth
> year of
> > a three-year project to get off the mainframe.
> >
> > Enzo, my friend, you have just kicked the hornets' nest! You had better
> > duck, because the onslaught is coming. "The mainframe is [not] dead" is
> near
> > and dear to the hearts of IBM-MAINers.
> >
> > Yes, I think the consensus is that the mainframe has a future. IBM seems
> to
> > be focused mainly on the very largest shops, so the trend seems to be
> bigger
> > and bigger machines at fewer and fewer companies. But it is hard to
> envision
> > Bank of America balancing their checking accounts every day on an array
> of
> > Windows servers, in their datacenter or in the cloud. My reading of the
> tea
> > leaves -- I am not an insider -- is that for a long time IBM was *saying*
> > the mainframe was here to stay but internally they did not believe it and
> > were not making decisions on that basis -- but I think that has now
> changed.
> > IBM appears to have made a HUGE investment in the z16, an investment that
> > will take more than 5 or more years to recoup.
> >
> > Welcome aboard!
> >
> > Charles
> >
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
> > Behalf Of Enzo D'Amato
> > Sent: Saturday, June 18, 2022 1:56 PM
> > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> > Subject: Re: Modernize

Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and AWS

2022-06-19 Thread Don Leahy

Running batch does not preclude 24x7 online availability.

On Sun, Jun 19, 2022 at 09:44 Bill Johnson <
0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

> People still run batch on the mainframe? The ING CEO needs replaced. Last
> shop I worked at we ran very little batch. Because as a health insurance
> company, we needed to have 24 by 7 by 365 online availability or patients
> die.
>
>
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
>
> On Sunday, June 19, 2022, 2:36 AM, David Crayford 
> wrote:
>
> On 19/06/2022 5:23 am, Enzo D'Amato wrote:
> > I also agree, but as a non-insider, I wanted to know what others were
> thinking. I also belive that in most cases, the effort spent trying to get
> off the mainframe would be better spent actually fixing the code running on
> it in the first place. Moving around broken code doesn't automatically fix
> it.
>
> It's not just about fixing broken code. If you read the ING CIO's
> remarks about why they wanted off the mainframe it's not about the
> platform. Nobody denies that mainframes are insanely brilliant hardware
> platforms. ING wanted to get rid of batch and move towards an event
> driven architecture using pub/sub where they can easily deploy loosely
> coupled micro-services to provide cutting edge products. The technology
> stacks are built on open source such as Kafka, MongoDB, Cassandra, NiFi,
> Avro etc.  The retail banking industry has been disrupted by fintechs so
> waiting for an overnight batch schedule for settlements is a competitive
> disadvantage.  Cracking open and modernizing 50-60 year old COBOL batch
> applications is a VERY heavy lift.
>
> https://www.theregister.com/2016/07/01/ing_mainframe_strategy/ <- read
> the comments section. It's hilarious :)
>
> The doubly whammy is there's a skills crisis slowly unraveling. In the
> last year we've had 3 key resources move to 3 day weeks with a view to
> retiring. Replacing highly skilled assembler programmers with deep
> subsystem knowledge is proving to be difficult. Young people don't want
> to learn HLASM as they consider it a dead-end. Their position is "why
> invest 3-4 years learning a language that is useless if you move to
> another industry?" I can't comment about COBOL application developers.
>
> In 10 years time I expect the mainframe to be alive and kicking and
> significantly modernized. The small/medium shops will probably be all
> gone. When I first moved to my current town in 1998 there were 25-30
> mainframe sites. Now there are 3 and 1 is on life support. One of our
> customers re-platformed their CICS/COBOL/Batch applications from a z9 to
> a single blade server. It doesn't make any sense financially for a small
> site to run a mainframe.
>
> https://www.itnews.com.au/news/wa-insurance-commission-decommissions-mainframe-322780
>
> >
> > Get BlueMail for Android<https://bluemail.me>
> > On Jun 18, 2022, at 5:13 PM, Charles Mills  charl...@mcn.org>> wrote:
> >
> > I always like the stories about the companies that are in the eighth
> year of
> > a three-year project to get off the mainframe.
> >
> > Enzo, my friend, you have just kicked the hornets' nest! You had better
> > duck, because the onslaught is coming. "The mainframe is [not] dead" is
> near
> > and dear to the hearts of IBM-MAINers.
> >
> > Yes, I think the consensus is that the mainframe has a future. IBM seems
> to
> > be focused mainly on the very largest shops, so the trend seems to be
> bigger
> > and bigger machines at fewer and fewer companies. But it is hard to
> envision
> > Bank of America balancing their checking accounts every day on an array
> of
> > Windows servers, in their datacenter or in the cloud. My reading of the
> tea
> > leaves -- I am not an insider -- is that for a long time IBM was *saying*
> > the mainframe was here to stay but internally they did not believe it and
> > were not making decisions on that basis -- but I think that has now
> changed.
> > IBM appears to have made a HUGE investment in the z16, an investment that
> > will take more than 5 or more years to recoup.
> >
> > Welcome aboard!
> >
> > Charles
> >
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
> > Behalf Of Enzo D'Amato
> > Sent: Saturday, June 18, 2022 1:56 PM
> > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> > Subject: Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM
> and
> > AWS
> >
> > As someone who is new to this field, and hasn't been though a wave of
&g

Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and AWS

Fintech is causing massive losses. 
https://www.finextra.com/newsarticle/40236/fintech-cheerleader-tiger-global-faces-massive-losses



Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Sunday, June 19, 2022, 11:11 AM, Tom Brennan  
wrote:

That's the most realistic assessment I've seen.

On 6/18/2022 11:36 PM, David Crayford wrote:

> It's not just about fixing broken code. If you read the ING CIO's 
> remarks about why they wanted off the mainframe it's not about the 
> platform. Nobody denies that mainframes are insanely brilliant hardware 
> platforms. ING wanted to get rid of batch and move towards an event 
> driven architecture using pub/sub where they can easily deploy loosely 
> coupled micro-services to provide cutting edge products. The technology 
> stacks are built on open source such as Kafka, MongoDB, Cassandra, NiFi, 
> Avro etc.  The retail banking industry has been disrupted by fintechs so 
> waiting for an overnight batch schedule for settlements is a competitive 
> disadvantage.  Cracking open and modernizing 50-60 year old COBOL batch 
> applications is a VERY heavy lift.
> 
> https://www.theregister.com/2016/07/01/ing_mainframe_strategy/ <- read 
> the comments section. It's hilarious :)
> 
> The doubly whammy is there's a skills crisis slowly unraveling. In the 
> last year we've had 3 key resources move to 3 day weeks with a view to 
> retiring. Replacing highly skilled assembler programmers with deep 
> subsystem knowledge is proving to be difficult. Young people don't want 
> to learn HLASM as they consider it a dead-end. Their position is "why 
> invest 3-4 years learning a language that is useless if you move to 
> another industry?" I can't comment about COBOL application developers.
> 
> In 10 years time I expect the mainframe to be alive and kicking and 
> significantly modernized. The small/medium shops will probably be all 
> gone. When I first moved to my current town in 1998 there were 25-30 
> mainframe sites. Now there are 3 and 1 is on life support. One of our 
> customers re-platformed their CICS/COBOL/Batch applications from a z9 to 
> a single blade server. It doesn't make any sense financially for a small 
> site to run a mainframe. 
> https://www.itnews.com.au/news/wa-insurance-commission-decommissions-mainframe-322780
>   

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Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and AWS

Not in my voracious reading.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Sunday, June 19, 2022, 11:11 AM, Tom Brennan  
wrote:

That's the most realistic assessment I've seen.

On 6/18/2022 11:36 PM, David Crayford wrote:

> It's not just about fixing broken code. If you read the ING CIO's 
> remarks about why they wanted off the mainframe it's not about the 
> platform. Nobody denies that mainframes are insanely brilliant hardware 
> platforms. ING wanted to get rid of batch and move towards an event 
> driven architecture using pub/sub where they can easily deploy loosely 
> coupled micro-services to provide cutting edge products. The technology 
> stacks are built on open source such as Kafka, MongoDB, Cassandra, NiFi, 
> Avro etc.  The retail banking industry has been disrupted by fintechs so 
> waiting for an overnight batch schedule for settlements is a competitive 
> disadvantage.  Cracking open and modernizing 50-60 year old COBOL batch 
> applications is a VERY heavy lift.
> 
> https://www.theregister.com/2016/07/01/ing_mainframe_strategy/ <- read 
> the comments section. It's hilarious :)
> 
> The doubly whammy is there's a skills crisis slowly unraveling. In the 
> last year we've had 3 key resources move to 3 day weeks with a view to 
> retiring. Replacing highly skilled assembler programmers with deep 
> subsystem knowledge is proving to be difficult. Young people don't want 
> to learn HLASM as they consider it a dead-end. Their position is "why 
> invest 3-4 years learning a language that is useless if you move to 
> another industry?" I can't comment about COBOL application developers.
> 
> In 10 years time I expect the mainframe to be alive and kicking and 
> significantly modernized. The small/medium shops will probably be all 
> gone. When I first moved to my current town in 1998 there were 25-30 
> mainframe sites. Now there are 3 and 1 is on life support. One of our 
> customers re-platformed their CICS/COBOL/Batch applications from a z9 to 
> a single blade server. It doesn't make any sense financially for a small 
> site to run a mainframe. 
> https://www.itnews.com.au/news/wa-insurance-commission-decommissions-mainframe-322780
>   

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Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and AWS

With interest rates rising, Fintech is in serious trouble. That’s why the 
stocks are down drastically. Add in that the accounts aren’t backed by the 
government and Fintech is basically unregulated & the coming insolvencies will 
be painful. Kind of like crypto. Everything that emanates from Silicon Valley 
is not golden. Saw a similar ending with the internet bubble. Zero interest 
rates creates bubbles. You can’t keep building economic growth via ever 
increasing levels of debt. The ending is always painful. I remember when Uber & 
Lyft were disrupting the transportation industry. Now, after 10’s of billions 
in losses, and the stocks below their IPO price, reality is setting in.

Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone

On Sunday, June 19, 2022, 2:36 AM, David Crayford  wrote:

On 19/06/2022 5:23 am, Enzo D'Amato wrote:
> I also agree, but as a non-insider, I wanted to know what others were 
> thinking. I also belive that in most cases, the effort spent trying to get 
> off the mainframe would be better spent actually fixing the code running on 
> it in the first place. Moving around broken code doesn't automatically fix it.

It's not just about fixing broken code. If you read the ING CIO's 
remarks about why they wanted off the mainframe it's not about the 
platform. Nobody denies that mainframes are insanely brilliant hardware 
platforms. ING wanted to get rid of batch and move towards an event 
driven architecture using pub/sub where they can easily deploy loosely 
coupled micro-services to provide cutting edge products. The technology 
stacks are built on open source such as Kafka, MongoDB, Cassandra, NiFi, 
Avro etc.  The retail banking industry has been disrupted by fintechs so 
waiting for an overnight batch schedule for settlements is a competitive 
disadvantage.  Cracking open and modernizing 50-60 year old COBOL batch 
applications is a VERY heavy lift.

https://www.theregister.com/2016/07/01/ing_mainframe_strategy/ <- read 
the comments section. It's hilarious :)

The doubly whammy is there's a skills crisis slowly unraveling. In the 
last year we've had 3 key resources move to 3 day weeks with a view to 
retiring. Replacing highly skilled assembler programmers with deep 
subsystem knowledge is proving to be difficult. Young people don't want 
to learn HLASM as they consider it a dead-end. Their position is "why 
invest 3-4 years learning a language that is useless if you move to 
another industry?" I can't comment about COBOL application developers.

In 10 years time I expect the mainframe to be alive and kicking and 
significantly modernized. The small/medium shops will probably be all 
gone. When I first moved to my current town in 1998 there were 25-30 
mainframe sites. Now there are 3 and 1 is on life support. One of our 
customers re-platformed their CICS/COBOL/Batch applications from a z9 to 
a single blade server. It doesn't make any sense financially for a small 
site to run a mainframe. 
https://www.itnews.com.au/news/wa-insurance-commission-decommissions-mainframe-322780

>
> Get BlueMail for Android<https://bluemail.me>
> On Jun 18, 2022, at 5:13 PM, Charles Mills 
> mailto:charl...@mcn.org>> wrote:
>
> I always like the stories about the companies that are in the eighth year of
> a three-year project to get off the mainframe.
>
> Enzo, my friend, you have just kicked the hornets' nest! You had better
> duck, because the onslaught is coming. "The mainframe is [not] dead" is near
> and dear to the hearts of IBM-MAINers.
>
> Yes, I think the consensus is that the mainframe has a future. IBM seems to
> be focused mainly on the very largest shops, so the trend seems to be bigger
> and bigger machines at fewer and fewer companies. But it is hard to envision
> Bank of America balancing their checking accounts every day on an array of
> Windows servers, in their datacenter or in the cloud. My reading of the tea
> leaves -- I am not an insider -- is that for a long time IBM was *saying*
> the mainframe was here to stay but internally they did not believe it and
> were not making decisions on that basis -- but I think that has now changed.
> IBM appears to have made a HUGE investment in the z16, an investment that
> will take more than 5 or more years to recoup.
>
> Welcome aboard!
>
> Charles
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
> Behalf Of Enzo D'Amato
> Sent: Saturday, June 18, 2022 1:56 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and
> AWS
>
> As someone who is new to this field, and hasn't been though a wave of "the
> mainframe is going away" yet, will there still be companies running the
> mainframe 5 or 10

Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and AWS

2022-06-19 Thread Tom Brennan


That's the most realistic assessment I've seen.

On 6/18/2022 11:36 PM, David Crayford wrote:

It's not just about fixing broken code. If you read the ING CIO's 
remarks about why they wanted off the mainframe it's not about the 
platform. Nobody denies that mainframes are insanely brilliant hardware 
platforms. ING wanted to get rid of batch and move towards an event 
driven architecture using pub/sub where they can easily deploy loosely 
coupled micro-services to provide cutting edge products. The technology 
stacks are built on open source such as Kafka, MongoDB, Cassandra, NiFi, 
Avro etc.  The retail banking industry has been disrupted by fintechs so 
waiting for an overnight batch schedule for settlements is a competitive 
disadvantage.  Cracking open and modernizing 50-60 year old COBOL batch 
applications is a VERY heavy lift.


https://www.theregister.com/2016/07/01/ing_mainframe_strategy/ <- read 
the comments section. It's hilarious :)


The doubly whammy is there's a skills crisis slowly unraveling. In the 
last year we've had 3 key resources move to 3 day weeks with a view to 
retiring. Replacing highly skilled assembler programmers with deep 
subsystem knowledge is proving to be difficult. Young people don't want 
to learn HLASM as they consider it a dead-end. Their position is "why 
invest 3-4 years learning a language that is useless if you move to 
another industry?" I can't comment about COBOL application developers.


In 10 years time I expect the mainframe to be alive and kicking and 
significantly modernized. The small/medium shops will probably be all 
gone. When I first moved to my current town in 1998 there were 25-30 
mainframe sites. Now there are 3 and 1 is on life support. One of our 
customers re-platformed their CICS/COBOL/Batch applications from a z9 to 
a single blade server. It doesn't make any sense financially for a small 
site to run a mainframe. 
https://www.itnews.com.au/news/wa-insurance-commission-decommissions-mainframe-322780  


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Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and AWS

Fintech is a bubble. 
https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2021/11/18/many-signs-that-fintech-is-in-a-bubble-jc-flowers-ceo-says.html

Silicon Valley’s Fintech disruption is only viable with free money and zero 
interest rates.
If offering your paycheck 2 days early is your offering, you’re a scam. A loan 
shark.

Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone

On Sunday, June 19, 2022, 2:36 AM, David Crayford  wrote:

On 19/06/2022 5:23 am, Enzo D'Amato wrote:
> I also agree, but as a non-insider, I wanted to know what others were 
> thinking. I also belive that in most cases, the effort spent trying to get 
> off the mainframe would be better spent actually fixing the code running on 
> it in the first place. Moving around broken code doesn't automatically fix it.

It's not just about fixing broken code. If you read the ING CIO's 
remarks about why they wanted off the mainframe it's not about the 
platform. Nobody denies that mainframes are insanely brilliant hardware 
platforms. ING wanted to get rid of batch and move towards an event 
driven architecture using pub/sub where they can easily deploy loosely 
coupled micro-services to provide cutting edge products. The technology 
stacks are built on open source such as Kafka, MongoDB, Cassandra, NiFi, 
Avro etc.  The retail banking industry has been disrupted by fintechs so 
waiting for an overnight batch schedule for settlements is a competitive 
disadvantage.  Cracking open and modernizing 50-60 year old COBOL batch 
applications is a VERY heavy lift.

https://www.theregister.com/2016/07/01/ing_mainframe_strategy/ <- read 
the comments section. It's hilarious :)

The doubly whammy is there's a skills crisis slowly unraveling. In the 
last year we've had 3 key resources move to 3 day weeks with a view to 
retiring. Replacing highly skilled assembler programmers with deep 
subsystem knowledge is proving to be difficult. Young people don't want 
to learn HLASM as they consider it a dead-end. Their position is "why 
invest 3-4 years learning a language that is useless if you move to 
another industry?" I can't comment about COBOL application developers.

In 10 years time I expect the mainframe to be alive and kicking and 
significantly modernized. The small/medium shops will probably be all 
gone. When I first moved to my current town in 1998 there were 25-30 
mainframe sites. Now there are 3 and 1 is on life support. One of our 
customers re-platformed their CICS/COBOL/Batch applications from a z9 to 
a single blade server. It doesn't make any sense financially for a small 
site to run a mainframe. 
https://www.itnews.com.au/news/wa-insurance-commission-decommissions-mainframe-322780

>
> Get BlueMail for Android<https://bluemail.me>
> On Jun 18, 2022, at 5:13 PM, Charles Mills 
> mailto:charl...@mcn.org>> wrote:
>
> I always like the stories about the companies that are in the eighth year of
> a three-year project to get off the mainframe.
>
> Enzo, my friend, you have just kicked the hornets' nest! You had better
> duck, because the onslaught is coming. "The mainframe is [not] dead" is near
> and dear to the hearts of IBM-MAINers.
>
> Yes, I think the consensus is that the mainframe has a future. IBM seems to
> be focused mainly on the very largest shops, so the trend seems to be bigger
> and bigger machines at fewer and fewer companies. But it is hard to envision
> Bank of America balancing their checking accounts every day on an array of
> Windows servers, in their datacenter or in the cloud. My reading of the tea
> leaves -- I am not an insider -- is that for a long time IBM was *saying*
> the mainframe was here to stay but internally they did not believe it and
> were not making decisions on that basis -- but I think that has now changed.
> IBM appears to have made a HUGE investment in the z16, an investment that
> will take more than 5 or more years to recoup.
>
> Welcome aboard!
>
> Charles
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
> Behalf Of Enzo D'Amato
> Sent: Saturday, June 18, 2022 1:56 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and
> AWS
>
> As someone who is new to this field, and hasn't been though a wave of "the
> mainframe is going away" yet, will there still be companies running the
> mainframe 5 or 10 years down the line? Also, when I read about companies
> trying to get off of the mainframe, how often do these efforts end up
> succeeding?
> ____
>
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of
> Mike Schwab 
> Sent: Saturday, June 18, 2022 12:04 AM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for

Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and AWS

Fintechs are struggling. Most Fintech stocks are down huge. Losing money hand 
over fist. They’re not even a challenge.

Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone

On Sunday, June 19, 2022, 2:36 AM, David Crayford  wrote:

On 19/06/2022 5:23 am, Enzo D'Amato wrote:
> I also agree, but as a non-insider, I wanted to know what others were 
> thinking. I also belive that in most cases, the effort spent trying to get 
> off the mainframe would be better spent actually fixing the code running on 
> it in the first place. Moving around broken code doesn't automatically fix it.

It's not just about fixing broken code. If you read the ING CIO's 
remarks about why they wanted off the mainframe it's not about the 
platform. Nobody denies that mainframes are insanely brilliant hardware 
platforms. ING wanted to get rid of batch and move towards an event 
driven architecture using pub/sub where they can easily deploy loosely 
coupled micro-services to provide cutting edge products. The technology 
stacks are built on open source such as Kafka, MongoDB, Cassandra, NiFi, 
Avro etc.  The retail banking industry has been disrupted by fintechs so 
waiting for an overnight batch schedule for settlements is a competitive 
disadvantage.  Cracking open and modernizing 50-60 year old COBOL batch 
applications is a VERY heavy lift.

https://www.theregister.com/2016/07/01/ing_mainframe_strategy/ <- read 
the comments section. It's hilarious :)

The doubly whammy is there's a skills crisis slowly unraveling. In the 
last year we've had 3 key resources move to 3 day weeks with a view to 
retiring. Replacing highly skilled assembler programmers with deep 
subsystem knowledge is proving to be difficult. Young people don't want 
to learn HLASM as they consider it a dead-end. Their position is "why 
invest 3-4 years learning a language that is useless if you move to 
another industry?" I can't comment about COBOL application developers.

In 10 years time I expect the mainframe to be alive and kicking and 
significantly modernized. The small/medium shops will probably be all 
gone. When I first moved to my current town in 1998 there were 25-30 
mainframe sites. Now there are 3 and 1 is on life support. One of our 
customers re-platformed their CICS/COBOL/Batch applications from a z9 to 
a single blade server. It doesn't make any sense financially for a small 
site to run a mainframe. 
https://www.itnews.com.au/news/wa-insurance-commission-decommissions-mainframe-322780

>
> Get BlueMail for Android<https://bluemail.me>
> On Jun 18, 2022, at 5:13 PM, Charles Mills 
> mailto:charl...@mcn.org>> wrote:
>
> I always like the stories about the companies that are in the eighth year of
> a three-year project to get off the mainframe.
>
> Enzo, my friend, you have just kicked the hornets' nest! You had better
> duck, because the onslaught is coming. "The mainframe is [not] dead" is near
> and dear to the hearts of IBM-MAINers.
>
> Yes, I think the consensus is that the mainframe has a future. IBM seems to
> be focused mainly on the very largest shops, so the trend seems to be bigger
> and bigger machines at fewer and fewer companies. But it is hard to envision
> Bank of America balancing their checking accounts every day on an array of
> Windows servers, in their datacenter or in the cloud. My reading of the tea
> leaves -- I am not an insider -- is that for a long time IBM was *saying*
> the mainframe was here to stay but internally they did not believe it and
> were not making decisions on that basis -- but I think that has now changed.
> IBM appears to have made a HUGE investment in the z16, an investment that
> will take more than 5 or more years to recoup.
>
> Welcome aboard!
>
> Charles
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
> Behalf Of Enzo D'Amato
> Sent: Saturday, June 18, 2022 1:56 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and
> AWS
>
> As someone who is new to this field, and hasn't been though a wave of "the
> mainframe is going away" yet, will there still be companies running the
> mainframe 5 or 10 years down the line? Also, when I read about companies
> trying to get off of the mainframe, how often do these efforts end up
> succeeding?
> ____
>
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of
> Mike Schwab 
> Sent: Saturday, June 18, 2022 12:04 AM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and
> AWS
>
> Moshix signed up for an AWS instance, loaded up Hercules and Turnkey
> 4-, got it going, and allowed some other people to log in.
&

Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and AWS

People still run batch on the mainframe? The ING CEO needs replaced. Last shop 
I worked at we ran very little batch. Because as a health insurance company, we 
needed to have 24 by 7 by 365 online availability or patients die.

Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone

On Sunday, June 19, 2022, 2:36 AM, David Crayford  wrote:

On 19/06/2022 5:23 am, Enzo D'Amato wrote:
> I also agree, but as a non-insider, I wanted to know what others were 
> thinking. I also belive that in most cases, the effort spent trying to get 
> off the mainframe would be better spent actually fixing the code running on 
> it in the first place. Moving around broken code doesn't automatically fix it.

It's not just about fixing broken code. If you read the ING CIO's 
remarks about why they wanted off the mainframe it's not about the 
platform. Nobody denies that mainframes are insanely brilliant hardware 
platforms. ING wanted to get rid of batch and move towards an event 
driven architecture using pub/sub where they can easily deploy loosely 
coupled micro-services to provide cutting edge products. The technology 
stacks are built on open source such as Kafka, MongoDB, Cassandra, NiFi, 
Avro etc.  The retail banking industry has been disrupted by fintechs so 
waiting for an overnight batch schedule for settlements is a competitive 
disadvantage.  Cracking open and modernizing 50-60 year old COBOL batch 
applications is a VERY heavy lift.

https://www.theregister.com/2016/07/01/ing_mainframe_strategy/ <- read 
the comments section. It's hilarious :)

The doubly whammy is there's a skills crisis slowly unraveling. In the 
last year we've had 3 key resources move to 3 day weeks with a view to 
retiring. Replacing highly skilled assembler programmers with deep 
subsystem knowledge is proving to be difficult. Young people don't want 
to learn HLASM as they consider it a dead-end. Their position is "why 
invest 3-4 years learning a language that is useless if you move to 
another industry?" I can't comment about COBOL application developers.

In 10 years time I expect the mainframe to be alive and kicking and 
significantly modernized. The small/medium shops will probably be all 
gone. When I first moved to my current town in 1998 there were 25-30 
mainframe sites. Now there are 3 and 1 is on life support. One of our 
customers re-platformed their CICS/COBOL/Batch applications from a z9 to 
a single blade server. It doesn't make any sense financially for a small 
site to run a mainframe. 
https://www.itnews.com.au/news/wa-insurance-commission-decommissions-mainframe-322780

>
> Get BlueMail for Android<https://bluemail.me>
> On Jun 18, 2022, at 5:13 PM, Charles Mills 
> mailto:charl...@mcn.org>> wrote:
>
> I always like the stories about the companies that are in the eighth year of
> a three-year project to get off the mainframe.
>
> Enzo, my friend, you have just kicked the hornets' nest! You had better
> duck, because the onslaught is coming. "The mainframe is [not] dead" is near
> and dear to the hearts of IBM-MAINers.
>
> Yes, I think the consensus is that the mainframe has a future. IBM seems to
> be focused mainly on the very largest shops, so the trend seems to be bigger
> and bigger machines at fewer and fewer companies. But it is hard to envision
> Bank of America balancing their checking accounts every day on an array of
> Windows servers, in their datacenter or in the cloud. My reading of the tea
> leaves -- I am not an insider -- is that for a long time IBM was *saying*
> the mainframe was here to stay but internally they did not believe it and
> were not making decisions on that basis -- but I think that has now changed.
> IBM appears to have made a HUGE investment in the z16, an investment that
> will take more than 5 or more years to recoup.
>
> Welcome aboard!
>
> Charles
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
> Behalf Of Enzo D'Amato
> Sent: Saturday, June 18, 2022 1:56 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and
> AWS
>
> As someone who is new to this field, and hasn't been though a wave of "the
> mainframe is going away" yet, will there still be companies running the
> mainframe 5 or 10 years down the line? Also, when I read about companies
> trying to get off of the mainframe, how often do these efforts end up
> succeeding?
> ____
>
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of
> Mike Schwab 
> Sent: Saturday, June 18, 2022 12:04 AM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and
> AWS
>
> Moshix signed up for an AWS ins

Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and AWS

2022-06-18 Thread David Crayford


On 19/06/2022 5:23 am, Enzo D'Amato wrote:

I also agree, but as a non-insider, I wanted to know what others were thinking. 
I also belive that in most cases, the effort spent trying to get off the 
mainframe would be better spent actually fixing the code running on it in the 
first place. Moving around broken code doesn't automatically fix it.


It's not just about fixing broken code. If you read the ING CIO's 
remarks about why they wanted off the mainframe it's not about the 
platform. Nobody denies that mainframes are insanely brilliant hardware 
platforms. ING wanted to get rid of batch and move towards an event 
driven architecture using pub/sub where they can easily deploy loosely 
coupled micro-services to provide cutting edge products. The technology 
stacks are built on open source such as Kafka, MongoDB, Cassandra, NiFi, 
Avro etc.  The retail banking industry has been disrupted by fintechs so 
waiting for an overnight batch schedule for settlements is a competitive 
disadvantage.  Cracking open and modernizing 50-60 year old COBOL batch 
applications is a VERY heavy lift.


https://www.theregister.com/2016/07/01/ing_mainframe_strategy/ <- read 
the comments section. It's hilarious :)


The doubly whammy is there's a skills crisis slowly unraveling. In the 
last year we've had 3 key resources move to 3 day weeks with a view to 
retiring. Replacing highly skilled assembler programmers with deep 
subsystem knowledge is proving to be difficult. Young people don't want 
to learn HLASM as they consider it a dead-end. Their position is "why 
invest 3-4 years learning a language that is useless if you move to 
another industry?" I can't comment about COBOL application developers.


In 10 years time I expect the mainframe to be alive and kicking and 
significantly modernized. The small/medium shops will probably be all 
gone. When I first moved to my current town in 1998 there were 25-30 
mainframe sites. Now there are 3 and 1 is on life support. One of our 
customers re-platformed their CICS/COBOL/Batch applications from a z9 to 
a single blade server. It doesn't make any sense financially for a small 
site to run a mainframe. 
https://www.itnews.com.au/news/wa-insurance-commission-decommissions-mainframe-322780




Get BlueMail for Android<https://bluemail.me>
On Jun 18, 2022, at 5:13 PM, Charles Mills 
mailto:charl...@mcn.org>> wrote:

I always like the stories about the companies that are in the eighth year of
a three-year project to get off the mainframe.

Enzo, my friend, you have just kicked the hornets' nest! You had better
duck, because the onslaught is coming. "The mainframe is [not] dead" is near
and dear to the hearts of IBM-MAINers.

Yes, I think the consensus is that the mainframe has a future. IBM seems to
be focused mainly on the very largest shops, so the trend seems to be bigger
and bigger machines at fewer and fewer companies. But it is hard to envision
Bank of America balancing their checking accounts every day on an array of
Windows servers, in their datacenter or in the cloud. My reading of the tea
leaves -- I am not an insider -- is that for a long time IBM was *saying*
the mainframe was here to stay but internally they did not believe it and
were not making decisions on that basis -- but I think that has now changed.
IBM appears to have made a HUGE investment in the z16, an investment that
will take more than 5 or more years to recoup.

Welcome aboard!

Charles


-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
Behalf Of Enzo D'Amato
Sent: Saturday, June 18, 2022 1:56 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and
AWS

As someone who is new to this field, and hasn't been though a wave of "the
mainframe is going away" yet, will there still be companies running the
mainframe 5 or 10 years down the line? Also, when I read about companies
trying to get off of the mainframe, how often do these efforts end up
succeeding?


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of
Mike Schwab 
Sent: Saturday, June 18, 2022 12:04 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and
AWS

Moshix signed up for an AWS instance, loaded up Hercules and Turnkey
4-, got it going, and allowed some other people to log in.

On Fri, Jun 17, 2022 at 8:31 AM Bill Johnson
<0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

  Cloud - Something the mainframe has been doing for decades. We called it
outsourcing. GM ran their entire organization out of mainframes in
Charlotte, Dallas, & perhaps another in the 80's. The internet just made it
easier, and less secure & reliable. Brought outsourcing to a wider audience.

  Mainframe modernization. An oxymoron. Like saying today&

Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and AWS

2022-06-18 Thread Gibney, Dave

I believe the mainframe (and z/OS) will be here for a long time to come. But, I 
also think the smaller installations like mine are increasingly toast. The z/OS 
software charging models just don't work with the increasing minimum capacity 
of z machines. 

Sometime within the next 12 months, I am certain we will shut down our z/OS 
LPARs. When I came here for college in 1976,  they were running what was 
described as loosely coupled 370s. People working here had stories of changing 
the wires to program the earlier machines and the CE talked about replacing 
tubes.

Amdahl was here for a while, then back to IBM.  A 3090-400J was replaced by a 
Mulitiprise 2003 and then a series of zmachines. The last onsite machine was a 
10 year old z7. Late 2017, We migrated via lift'n'shift to a Mainframe as a 
Service installation.

We never ported code to the new systems that have replaced the functions 
formerly performed on the mainframe. These were in-house developed (Primarily 
Adabas and Natural) and maintained. Adabas and Natural landed here late 
70's/early 80's.  Instead, the business functins wee moved to ERP and other 
"cloud" services. Student Systems moved (Peoplesoft) around 2007/2008. 
Financials (Workday) 2019/2020. I think discussions about ERPing became early 
this century, 

z/OS still runs to provide access to historic data. Most of which has been 
copied elsewhere for continued query. I've had a good run, but I doubt there 
are many jack of all z/OS, master of none positions in today's workplace. But, 
still many opportunities for working on the platform.

> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On
> Behalf Of Enzo D'Amato
> Sent: Saturday, June 18, 2022 2:23 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM
> and AWS
>
> I also agree, but as a non-insider, I wanted to know what others were
> thinking. I also belive that in most cases, the effort spent trying to get 
> off the
> mainframe would be better spent actually fixing the code running on it in the
> first place. Moving around broken code doesn't automatically fix it.
> 
> Get BlueMail for
> Android<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://bluemail.me__;!!JmPEgBY0H
> MszNaDT!q2cAL9FdmjQNvdt44wrmdVt-
> saMpYTGdrO8CZftdsWmconulL8zZ90AmhJb4w4FabEsteh1LXyxC2iGl7KXGsg$
> >
> On Jun 18, 2022, at 5:13 PM, Charles Mills
> mailto:charl...@mcn.org>> wrote:
> 
> I always like the stories about the companies that are in the eighth year of
> a three-year project to get off the mainframe.
> 
> Enzo, my friend, you have just kicked the hornets' nest! You had better
> duck, because the onslaught is coming. "The mainframe is [not] dead" is near
> and dear to the hearts of IBM-MAINers.
> 
> Yes, I think the consensus is that the mainframe has a future. IBM seems to
> be focused mainly on the very largest shops, so the trend seems to be bigger
> and bigger machines at fewer and fewer companies. But it is hard to envision
> Bank of America balancing their checking accounts every day on an array of
> Windows servers, in their datacenter or in the cloud. My reading of the tea
> leaves -- I am not an insider -- is that for a long time IBM was *saying*
> the mainframe was here to stay but internally they did not believe it and
> were not making decisions on that basis -- but I think that has now changed.
> IBM appears to have made a HUGE investment in the z16, an investment that
> will take more than 5 or more years to recoup.
> 
> Welcome aboard!
> 
> Charles
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU]
> On
> Behalf Of Enzo D'Amato
> Sent: Saturday, June 18, 2022 1:56 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM
> and
> AWS
> 
> As someone who is new to this field, and hasn't been though a wave of "the
> mainframe is going away" yet, will there still be companies running the
> mainframe 5 or 10 years down the line? Also, when I read about companies
> trying to get off of the mainframe, how often do these efforts end up
> succeeding?
> 
> 
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on
> behalf of
> Mike Schwab 
> Sent: Saturday, June 18, 2022 12:04 AM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM
> and
> AWS
> 
> Moshix signed up for an AWS instance, loaded up Hercules and Turnkey
> 4-, got it going, and allowed some other people to log in.
> 
> On Fri, Jun 17, 2022 at 8:31 AM Bill Johnson
> <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote

Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and AWS

2022-06-18 Thread Bill Johnson

If you’re here for opinions, you’ve come to the right place.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Saturday, June 18, 2022, 5:23 PM, Enzo D'Amato  
wrote:

I also agree, but as a non-insider, I wanted to know what others were thinking. 
I also belive that in most cases, the effort spent trying to get off the 
mainframe would be better spent actually fixing the code running on it in the 
first place. Moving around broken code doesn't automatically fix it.

Get BlueMail for Android<https://bluemail.me>
On Jun 18, 2022, at 5:13 PM, Charles Mills 
mailto:charl...@mcn.org>> wrote:

I always like the stories about the companies that are in the eighth year of
a three-year project to get off the mainframe.

Enzo, my friend, you have just kicked the hornets' nest! You had better
duck, because the onslaught is coming. "The mainframe is [not] dead" is near
and dear to the hearts of IBM-MAINers.

Yes, I think the consensus is that the mainframe has a future. IBM seems to
be focused mainly on the very largest shops, so the trend seems to be bigger
and bigger machines at fewer and fewer companies. But it is hard to envision
Bank of America balancing their checking accounts every day on an array of
Windows servers, in their datacenter or in the cloud. My reading of the tea
leaves -- I am not an insider -- is that for a long time IBM was *saying*
the mainframe was here to stay but internally they did not believe it and
were not making decisions on that basis -- but I think that has now changed.
IBM appears to have made a HUGE investment in the z16, an investment that
will take more than 5 or more years to recoup.

Welcome aboard!

Charles


-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
Behalf Of Enzo D'Amato
Sent: Saturday, June 18, 2022 1:56 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and
AWS

As someone who is new to this field, and hasn't been though a wave of "the
mainframe is going away" yet, will there still be companies running the
mainframe 5 or 10 years down the line? Also, when I read about companies
trying to get off of the mainframe, how often do these efforts end up
succeeding?


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of
Mike Schwab 
Sent: Saturday, June 18, 2022 12:04 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and
AWS

Moshix signed up for an AWS instance, loaded up Hercules and Turnkey
4-, got it going, and allowed some other people to log in.

On Fri, Jun 17, 2022 at 8:31 AM Bill Johnson
<0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

 Cloud - Something the mainframe has been doing for decades. We called it
outsourcing. GM ran their entire organization out of mainframes in
Charlotte, Dallas, & perhaps another in the 80's. The internet just made it
easier, and less secure & reliable. Brought outsourcing to a wider audience.

 Mainframe modernization. An oxymoron. Like saying today's cars are like
cars from 50 years ago. The mainframe is more advanced than any other
platforms. Billions of dollars of investment and patented technologies have
guaranteed its place for decades to come.

 Sure, AWS, Azure, Oracle cloud & numerous others are creating cheap,
unsecured, unreliable, platforms for small businesses, picture storage,
emails, instant messaging, and many other tasks that aren't show stoppers if
they're hacked or down for one of many reasons. As Capital One found out and
lost almost 200 million for the pleasure.

 I enjoy the glee that many of you exude when IBM has what might be
perceived as negative news. I saw the same glee when in the 90's some idiot
said the mainframe would be history circa 2000.


 Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


 On Friday, June 17, 2022, 9:06 AM, zMan  wrote:

 On Fri, Jun 17, 2022 at 5:50 AM David Crayford 
wrote:

 Maybe it's the case that customers don't want to use IBMs cloud. Where I
 live in Australia the big four banks are moving significant chunks of
 their infrastructure to public cloud and have government legislation to
 do so. NAB in particular have been quite aggressive, although like most
 sensible enterprises they have gone down the multi-cloud route with
 Microsoft Azure so they don't have all their eggs in one basket.

 It will be interesting to see if IBM can close the cloud gap. Playing
 catch-up is difficult when competing with behemoths with a decade+ head
 start.


 Indeed. Word from insiders is that since IBM "management" have decided
 cloud is The Answer, folks have started playing games, like attributing
all
 CICS-related revenue as "cloud". Q4 2020, IBM claimed $6.2B in cloud
 revenue on total revenue of $16B. Given that nobody EVER says"cloud" and
 "IBM" in the same sentence in

Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and AWS

2022-06-18 Thread Charles Mills

You have no potential in management.



Re-arranging the deck chairs is a time-honored management strategy.

Charles


-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf 
Of Enzo D'Amato
Sent: Saturday, June 18, 2022 2:23 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and AWS

I also agree, but as a non-insider, I wanted to know what others were thinking. 
I also belive that in most cases, the effort spent trying to get off the 
mainframe would be better spent actually fixing the code running on it in the 
first place. Moving around broken code doesn't automatically fix it.

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and AWS

2022-06-18 Thread Enzo D'Amato

I also agree, but as a non-insider, I wanted to know what others were thinking. 
I also belive that in most cases, the effort spent trying to get off the 
mainframe would be better spent actually fixing the code running on it in the 
first place. Moving around broken code doesn't automatically fix it.

Get BlueMail for Android<https://bluemail.me>
On Jun 18, 2022, at 5:13 PM, Charles Mills 
mailto:charl...@mcn.org>> wrote:

I always like the stories about the companies that are in the eighth year of
a three-year project to get off the mainframe.

Enzo, my friend, you have just kicked the hornets' nest! You had better
duck, because the onslaught is coming. "The mainframe is [not] dead" is near
and dear to the hearts of IBM-MAINers.

Yes, I think the consensus is that the mainframe has a future. IBM seems to
be focused mainly on the very largest shops, so the trend seems to be bigger
and bigger machines at fewer and fewer companies. But it is hard to envision
Bank of America balancing their checking accounts every day on an array of
Windows servers, in their datacenter or in the cloud. My reading of the tea
leaves -- I am not an insider -- is that for a long time IBM was *saying*
the mainframe was here to stay but internally they did not believe it and
were not making decisions on that basis -- but I think that has now changed.
IBM appears to have made a HUGE investment in the z16, an investment that
will take more than 5 or more years to recoup.

Welcome aboard!

Charles


-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
Behalf Of Enzo D'Amato
Sent: Saturday, June 18, 2022 1:56 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and
AWS

As someone who is new to this field, and hasn't been though a wave of "the
mainframe is going away" yet, will there still be companies running the
mainframe 5 or 10 years down the line? Also, when I read about companies
trying to get off of the mainframe, how often do these efforts end up
succeeding?


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of
Mike Schwab 
Sent: Saturday, June 18, 2022 12:04 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and
AWS

Moshix signed up for an AWS instance, loaded up Hercules and Turnkey
4-, got it going, and allowed some other people to log in.

On Fri, Jun 17, 2022 at 8:31 AM Bill Johnson
<0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

 Cloud - Something the mainframe has been doing for decades. We called it
outsourcing. GM ran their entire organization out of mainframes in
Charlotte, Dallas, & perhaps another in the 80's. The internet just made it
easier, and less secure & reliable. Brought outsourcing to a wider audience.

 Mainframe modernization. An oxymoron. Like saying today's cars are like
cars from 50 years ago. The mainframe is more advanced than any other
platforms. Billions of dollars of investment and patented technologies have
guaranteed its place for decades to come.

 Sure, AWS, Azure, Oracle cloud & numerous others are creating cheap,
unsecured, unreliable, platforms for small businesses, picture storage,
emails, instant messaging, and many other tasks that aren't show stoppers if
they're hacked or down for one of many reasons. As Capital One found out and
lost almost 200 million for the pleasure.

 I enjoy the glee that many of you exude when IBM has what might be
perceived as negative news. I saw the same glee when in the 90's some idiot
said the mainframe would be history circa 2000.


 Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


 On Friday, June 17, 2022, 9:06 AM, zMan  wrote:

 On Fri, Jun 17, 2022 at 5:50 AM David Crayford 
wrote:

 Maybe it's the case that customers don't want to use IBMs cloud. Where I
 live in Australia the big four banks are moving significant chunks of
 their infrastructure to public cloud and have government legislation to
 do so. NAB in particular have been quite aggressive, although like most
 sensible enterprises they have gone down the multi-cloud route with
 Microsoft Azure so they don't have all their eggs in one basket.

 It will be interesting to see if IBM can close the cloud gap. Playing
 catch-up is difficult when competing with behemoths with a decade+ head
 start.


 Indeed. Word from insiders is that since IBM "management" have decided
 cloud is The Answer, folks have started playing games, like attributing
all
 CICS-related revenue as "cloud". Q4 2020, IBM claimed $6.2B in cloud
 revenue on total revenue of $16B. Given that nobody EVER says"cloud" and
 "IBM" in the same sentence in the real world, those numbers are quite
 difficult to believe without this kind of gameplaying.



 For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff

Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and AWS

2022-06-18 Thread Bill Johnson

Agree 100%

Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone

On Saturday, June 18, 2022, 5:12 PM, Charles Mills  wrote:

I always like the stories about the companies that are in the eighth year of
a three-year project to get off the mainframe.

Enzo, my friend, you have just kicked the hornets' nest! You had better
duck, because the onslaught is coming. "The mainframe is [not] dead" is near
and dear to the hearts of IBM-MAINers.

Yes, I think the consensus is that the mainframe has a future. IBM seems to
be focused mainly on the very largest shops, so the trend seems to be bigger
and bigger machines at fewer and fewer companies. But it is hard to envision
Bank of America balancing their checking accounts every day on an array of
Windows servers, in their datacenter or in the cloud. My reading of the tea
leaves -- I am not an insider -- is that for a long time IBM was *saying*
the mainframe was here to stay but internally they did not believe it and
were not making decisions on that basis -- but I think that has now changed.
IBM appears to have made a HUGE investment in the z16, an investment that
will take more than 5 or more years to recoup.

Welcome aboard!

Charles

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
Behalf Of Enzo D'Amato
Sent: Saturday, June 18, 2022 1:56 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and
AWS

As someone who is new to this field, and hasn't been though a wave of "the
mainframe is going away" yet, will there still be companies running the
mainframe 5 or 10 years down the line? Also, when I read about companies
trying to get off of the mainframe, how often do these efforts end up
succeeding?

From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of
Mike Schwab 
Sent: Saturday, June 18, 2022 12:04 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and
AWS

Moshix signed up for an AWS instance, loaded up Hercules and Turnkey
4-, got it going, and allowed some other people to log in.

On Fri, Jun 17, 2022 at 8:31 AM Bill Johnson
<0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
>
> Cloud - Something the mainframe has been doing for decades. We called it
outsourcing. GM ran their entire organization out of mainframes in
Charlotte, Dallas, & perhaps another in the 80's. The internet just made it
easier, and less secure & reliable. Brought outsourcing to a wider audience.
>
> Mainframe modernization. An oxymoron. Like saying today's cars are like
cars from 50 years ago. The mainframe is more advanced than any other
platforms. Billions of dollars of investment and patented technologies have
guaranteed its place for decades to come.
>
> Sure, AWS, Azure, Oracle cloud & numerous others are creating cheap,
unsecured, unreliable, platforms for small businesses, picture storage,
emails, instant messaging, and many other tasks that aren't show stoppers if
they're hacked or down for one of many reasons. As Capital One found out and
lost almost 200 million for the pleasure.
>
> I enjoy the glee that many of you exude when IBM has what might be
perceived as negative news. I saw the same glee when in the 90's some idiot
said the mainframe would be history circa 2000.
>
>
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
>
> On Friday, June 17, 2022, 9:06 AM, zMan  wrote:
>
> On Fri, Jun 17, 2022 at 5:50 AM David Crayford 
wrote:
>
> > Maybe it's the case that customers don't want to use IBMs cloud. Where I
> > live in Australia the big four banks are moving significant chunks of
> > their infrastructure to public cloud and have government legislation to
> > do so. NAB in particular have been quite aggressive, although like most
> > sensible enterprises they have gone down the multi-cloud route with
> > Microsoft Azure so they don't have all their eggs in one basket.
> >
> > It will be interesting to see if IBM can close the cloud gap. Playing
> > catch-up is difficult when competing with behemoths with a decade+ head
> > start.
> >
>
> Indeed. Word from insiders is that since IBM "management" have decided
> cloud is The Answer, folks have started playing games, like attributing
all
> CICS-related revenue as "cloud". Q4 2020, IBM claimed $6.2B in cloud
> revenue on total revenue of $16B. Given that nobody EVER says"cloud" and
> "IBM" in the same sentence in the real world, those numbers are quite
> difficult to believe without this kind of gameplaying.
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the

Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and AWS

2022-06-18 Thread Charles Mills

I always like the stories about the companies that are in the eighth year of
a three-year project to get off the mainframe.

Enzo, my friend, you have just kicked the hornets' nest! You had better
duck, because the onslaught is coming. "The mainframe is [not] dead" is near
and dear to the hearts of IBM-MAINers.

Yes, I think the consensus is that the mainframe has a future. IBM seems to
be focused mainly on the very largest shops, so the trend seems to be bigger
and bigger machines at fewer and fewer companies. But it is hard to envision
Bank of America balancing their checking accounts every day on an array of
Windows servers, in their datacenter or in the cloud. My reading of the tea
leaves -- I am not an insider -- is that for a long time IBM was *saying*
the mainframe was here to stay but internally they did not believe it and
were not making decisions on that basis -- but I think that has now changed.
IBM appears to have made a HUGE investment in the z16, an investment that
will take more than 5 or more years to recoup.

Welcome aboard!

Charles

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
Behalf Of Enzo D'Amato
Sent: Saturday, June 18, 2022 1:56 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and
AWS

As someone who is new to this field, and hasn't been though a wave of "the
mainframe is going away" yet, will there still be companies running the
mainframe 5 or 10 years down the line? Also, when I read about companies
trying to get off of the mainframe, how often do these efforts end up
succeeding?

From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of
Mike Schwab 
Sent: Saturday, June 18, 2022 12:04 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and
AWS

Moshix signed up for an AWS instance, loaded up Hercules and Turnkey
4-, got it going, and allowed some other people to log in.

On Fri, Jun 17, 2022 at 8:31 AM Bill Johnson
<0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
>
> Cloud - Something the mainframe has been doing for decades. We called it
outsourcing. GM ran their entire organization out of mainframes in
Charlotte, Dallas, & perhaps another in the 80's. The internet just made it
easier, and less secure & reliable. Brought outsourcing to a wider audience.
>
> Mainframe modernization. An oxymoron. Like saying today's cars are like
cars from 50 years ago. The mainframe is more advanced than any other
platforms. Billions of dollars of investment and patented technologies have
guaranteed its place for decades to come.
>
> Sure, AWS, Azure, Oracle cloud & numerous others are creating cheap,
unsecured, unreliable, platforms for small businesses, picture storage,
emails, instant messaging, and many other tasks that aren't show stoppers if
they're hacked or down for one of many reasons. As Capital One found out and
lost almost 200 million for the pleasure.
>
> I enjoy the glee that many of you exude when IBM has what might be
perceived as negative news. I saw the same glee when in the 90's some idiot
said the mainframe would be history circa 2000.
>
>
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
>
> On Friday, June 17, 2022, 9:06 AM, zMan  wrote:
>
> On Fri, Jun 17, 2022 at 5:50 AM David Crayford 
wrote:
>
> > Maybe it's the case that customers don't want to use IBMs cloud. Where I
> > live in Australia the big four banks are moving significant chunks of
> > their infrastructure to public cloud and have government legislation to
> > do so. NAB in particular have been quite aggressive, although like most
> > sensible enterprises they have gone down the multi-cloud route with
> > Microsoft Azure so they don't have all their eggs in one basket.
> >
> > It will be interesting to see if IBM can close the cloud gap. Playing
> > catch-up is difficult when competing with behemoths with a decade+ head
> > start.
> >
>
> Indeed. Word from insiders is that since IBM "management" have decided
> cloud is The Answer, folks have started playing games, like attributing
all
> CICS-related revenue as "cloud". Q4 2020, IBM claimed $6.2B in cloud
> revenue on total revenue of $16B. Given that nobody EVER says"cloud" and
> "IBM" in the same sentence in the real world, those numbers are quite
> difficult to believe without this kind of gameplaying.
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>
>
>
>
> --

Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and AWS

2022-06-18 Thread Enzo D'Amato

As someone who is new to this field, and hasn't been though a wave of "the 
mainframe is going away" yet, will there still be companies running the 
mainframe 5 or 10 years down the line? Also, when I read about companies trying 
to get off of the mainframe, how often do these efforts end up succeeding?

From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Mike Schwab 
Sent: Saturday, June 18, 2022 12:04 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and AWS

Moshix signed up for an AWS instance, loaded up Hercules and Turnkey
4-, got it going, and allowed some other people to log in.

On Fri, Jun 17, 2022 at 8:31 AM Bill Johnson
<0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
>
> Cloud - Something the mainframe has been doing for decades. We called it 
> outsourcing. GM ran their entire organization out of mainframes in Charlotte, 
> Dallas, & perhaps another in the 80’s. The internet just made it easier, and 
> less secure & reliable. Brought outsourcing to a wider audience.
>
> Mainframe modernization. An oxymoron. Like saying today’s cars are like cars 
> from 50 years ago. The mainframe is more advanced than any other platforms. 
> Billions of dollars of investment and patented technologies have guaranteed 
> its place for decades to come.
>
> Sure, AWS, Azure, Oracle cloud & numerous others are creating cheap, 
> unsecured, unreliable, platforms for small businesses, picture storage, 
> emails, instant messaging, and many other tasks that aren’t show stoppers if 
> they’re hacked or down for one of many reasons. As Capital One found out and 
> lost almost 200 million for the pleasure.
>
> I enjoy the glee that many of you exude when IBM has what might be perceived 
> as negative news. I saw the same glee when in the 90’s some idiot said the 
> mainframe would be history circa 2000.
>
>
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
>
> On Friday, June 17, 2022, 9:06 AM, zMan  wrote:
>
> On Fri, Jun 17, 2022 at 5:50 AM David Crayford  wrote:
>
> > Maybe it's the case that customers don't want to use IBMs cloud. Where I
> > live in Australia the big four banks are moving significant chunks of
> > their infrastructure to public cloud and have government legislation to
> > do so. NAB in particular have been quite aggressive, although like most
> > sensible enterprises they have gone down the multi-cloud route with
> > Microsoft Azure so they don't have all their eggs in one basket.
> >
> > It will be interesting to see if IBM can close the cloud gap. Playing
> > catch-up is difficult when competing with behemoths with a decade+ head
> > start.
> >
>
> Indeed. Word from insiders is that since IBM "management" have decided
> cloud is The Answer, folks have started playing games, like attributing all
> CICS-related revenue as "cloud". Q4 2020, IBM claimed $6.2B in cloud
> revenue on total revenue of $16B. Given that nobody EVER says"cloud" and
> "IBM" in the same sentence in the real world, those numbers are quite
> difficult to believe without this kind of gameplaying.
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>
>
>
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN



--
Mike A Schwab, Springfield IL USA
Where do Forest Rangers go to get away from it all?

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Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and AWS

2022-06-17 Thread Mike Schwab

Moshix signed up for an AWS instance, loaded up Hercules and Turnkey
4-, got it going, and allowed some other people to log in.

On Fri, Jun 17, 2022 at 8:31 AM Bill Johnson
<0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
>
> Cloud - Something the mainframe has been doing for decades. We called it 
> outsourcing. GM ran their entire organization out of mainframes in Charlotte, 
> Dallas, & perhaps another in the 80’s. The internet just made it easier, and 
> less secure & reliable. Brought outsourcing to a wider audience.
>
> Mainframe modernization. An oxymoron. Like saying today’s cars are like cars 
> from 50 years ago. The mainframe is more advanced than any other platforms. 
> Billions of dollars of investment and patented technologies have guaranteed 
> its place for decades to come.
>
> Sure, AWS, Azure, Oracle cloud & numerous others are creating cheap, 
> unsecured, unreliable, platforms for small businesses, picture storage, 
> emails, instant messaging, and many other tasks that aren’t show stoppers if 
> they’re hacked or down for one of many reasons. As Capital One found out and 
> lost almost 200 million for the pleasure.
>
> I enjoy the glee that many of you exude when IBM has what might be perceived 
> as negative news. I saw the same glee when in the 90’s some idiot said the 
> mainframe would be history circa 2000.
>
>
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
>
> On Friday, June 17, 2022, 9:06 AM, zMan  wrote:
>
> On Fri, Jun 17, 2022 at 5:50 AM David Crayford  wrote:
>
> > Maybe it's the case that customers don't want to use IBMs cloud. Where I
> > live in Australia the big four banks are moving significant chunks of
> > their infrastructure to public cloud and have government legislation to
> > do so. NAB in particular have been quite aggressive, although like most
> > sensible enterprises they have gone down the multi-cloud route with
> > Microsoft Azure so they don't have all their eggs in one basket.
> >
> > It will be interesting to see if IBM can close the cloud gap. Playing
> > catch-up is difficult when competing with behemoths with a decade+ head
> > start.
> >
>
> Indeed. Word from insiders is that since IBM "management" have decided
> cloud is The Answer, folks have started playing games, like attributing all
> CICS-related revenue as "cloud". Q4 2020, IBM claimed $6.2B in cloud
> revenue on total revenue of $16B. Given that nobody EVER says"cloud" and
> "IBM" in the same sentence in the real world, those numbers are quite
> difficult to believe without this kind of gameplaying.
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>
>
>
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN



-- 
Mike A Schwab, Springfield IL USA
Where do Forest Rangers go to get away from it all?

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Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and AWS

2022-06-17 Thread kekronbekron

Well, not really.
What has happened is spinning things up and down has been commoditized.
However, each cloud provider does the specifics in its own way, and therein 
comes the quagmire.
AWS CloudFormation can't be used as is, with Azure or GCloud.

The only true multi-cloud is using HashiCorp's stack and targeting whichever.
But by then you're "locked in" with HashiCorp.
So the narrative of "can't depend on this cloud, therefore multi-cloud" is just 
childish.
Seriously, isn't it even an option to architect it well rather than aiming to 
have a foot on 2 different horses?

It's also funny how this talk of lock-in comes up only w.r.t cloud.
What the duck about Office 365 and Windows 10/11 mate; everyone's pretty tied 
up with that!

- KB
--- Original Message ---
On Saturday, June 18th, 2022 at 12:16 AM, Tom Brennan 
 wrote:


> If nobody has mentioned it yet, isn't one big difference between a
> Mainframe and Cloud (the average definition) the fact that a company can
> easily move their existing Linux processing to places like AWS, and then
> later if they don't like AWS, move it just as easily to an AWS competitor?
>
> On 6/17/2022 10:42 AM, Bill Johnson wrote:
>
> > What’s the difference between JPM’s mainframe and Capital One’s AWS? Other 
> > than one is fast, reliable, and secure and the other is not. Both can be 
> > located anywhere in the world and accessed from anywhere via all kinds of 
> > devices. Explain the difference. What makes one a cloud and not the other?
> >
> > Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
> >
> > On Friday, June 17, 2022, 1:36 PM, zMan zedgarhoo...@gmail.com wrote:
> >
> > OK...that was the commonality. Either that or you were suggesting that
> > "banking transactions" implies cloud.
> >
> > I saw no "cloud" in anything you listed other than that one bank was
> > running their stuff in AWS. Viewed through that lens, the question doesn't
> > even make sense: "Is this thing that IS in the cloud different from this
> > other thing that's not in the cloud?" Well, yes.
> >
> > On Fri, Jun 17, 2022 at 1:30 PM Bill Johnson <
> > 0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
> >
> > > I never said APP = Cloud. I can get my banking transactions anywhere in
> > > the world from JPM wherever their mainframe is located. The exact same
> > > thing I can do with Capital One via AWS. The APPS are just the front end
> > > query mechanism.
> > >
> > > Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
> > >
> > > On Friday, June 17, 2022, 1:22 PM, zMan zedgarhoo...@gmail.com wrote:
> > >
> > > Correct. App <> cloud.
> > >
> > > On Fri, Jun 17, 2022 at 1:04 PM Bill Johnson <
> > > 0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
> > >
> > > > So if I get my banking transactions by Capital One APP via AWS, that’s
> > > > cloud, but if I get those same banking transactions via JP Morgan APP
> > > > which
> > > > acquires the records via CICS transaction from DB2 that’s not cloud?
> > > >
> > > > Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
> > > >
> > > > On Friday, June 17, 2022, 12:56 PM, zMan zedgarhoo...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I'm highly suspicious of cloud in general, don't get me wrong. But IBM
> > > > can't just call CICS "cloud" and expect it to mean anything. Calling a
> > > > tail
> > > > a leg doesn't make it one: when the rest of the industry says "cloud"
> > > > these
> > > > days, they don't just mean outsourcing, and definitely don't mean CICS.
> > > > And
> > > > CICS isn't a synonym for outsourcing in any case.
> > > >
> > > > Actually, if you think of cloud services in terms of HTTPS transactions,
> > > > CICS isn't that far off in some ways--but it still isn't the same thing,
> > > > more an older, pre-Internet version of something similar. Yes, CICS can
> > > > serve web pages; that doesn't make CICS = cloud!
> > > >
> > > > "Mainframe modernization" is a pretty bogus term, nicely loaded: "Hmm, 
> > > > if
> > > > mainframe modernization exists, mainframes must be
> > > > old-fashioned/obsolete/behind". Wrong, as we know. "Mainframe emulation"
> > > > is
> > > > closer, only that tends to make us think zPDT, Hercules, et al.; "z/OS
> > > > emulation" seems more accurate to me, but isn't the term that folks use,
> > > > so
> > > > it doesn't help at this point. It's a mess.
> > > >
> > > > But none of this discussion, interesting as it is, relates to the fact
> > > > that
> > > > IBM claims to have a cloud presence BUT has chosen to host their 
> > > > offering
> > > > in AWS. Those two items are pretty hard to reconcile.
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> > > > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> > > > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO I

Re: Debit vs Credit card for cash at ATM? [was: RE: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and AWS]

2022-06-17 Thread Bob Bridges

I've been caught in only one breach (that I know of).  But that sort of
thing is the main reason I try to use PayPal as much as possible for on-line
shopping.  It's not that I assume PayPay will take better care of my data
than other vendors (though I hope they do) - but I like giving my card to
only one vendor rather than many, thus reducing my risk.

I'd be interested in some knowledgeable cove's comments on something else I
do with my credit card that I don't think I've heard anyone else admit to.
I had a single credit card for years - decades, I guess - and every so often
the issuer raised the credit limit.  ("You've been very responsible with
your card.  Here's a new credit limit:  Go be just a little less
responsible, please, take a vacation or something!")  It got up to I think
$24 000 or thereabouts, and then ten or twelve years back I caught swine flu
and spent some months in the hospital, then some months more in a sort of
rehab facility.  (It was really an old-folks' home, but the point was that
there were PTs there to help me recover, walk again etc).  I wasn't able to
work for almost a year, from Christmas Eve to about Thanksgiving, and for a
while I had to let my credit-card balance rise.

Once I was able to start making payments again, I paid it off pretty quickly
- but the card issuer reduced my available balance every time I paid off
more, then canceled the card in the end.  I was eventually issued a new
card, but with a very low credit limit - and my work used to involve travel,
ie airfare, car rental and hotels.  This card wasn't going to cut it.

It took me a while to realize that the solution was simple: I simply put a
few thousand on the card, as though it was a pre-paid.  The credit limit is
back up to a usable level now, but I'm still in the habit:  I keep a
negative balance on the card.

Yeah, yeah, I know they're profiting from "borrowing" my money.  But I pay
the same either way, so I can't see that it makes a difference to me.  Are
there disadvantages I'm missing?

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* Do not hit at all if it can be avoided, but never hit softly.  -Theodore
Roosevelt */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of
Phil Smith III
Sent: Friday, June 17, 2022 18:21

Re card breach liability: yes, there's theoretically a $50 cap; de facto, it
seems to be $0. I've never found anyone who's gotten hit for the $50, and
I've asked hundreds of folks at dozens of presentations I've given on
Payments. I have an unconfirmed theory that if you're a deadbeat-behind on
payments, huge balance, etc.-they might try to ding you, but otherwise
they're not going to risk ticking you off over pennies like that.

--
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Re: Debit vs Credit card for cash at ATM? [was: RE: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and AWS]

2022-06-17 Thread Michael Oujesky

ATM is just the teller (i.e. Automated Teller Machine), but there are 
only two kinds of accounts - debit (deposit) or credit (loan).   Most 
ATMs accept either kind off account, though some are limited as to 
what banking network they accept.


BTW, for BOA, the card number is just that - the number identifying 
that particular piece of plastic.  The true account number is 
entirely unrelated to the card number.


Michael

At 05:26 PM 6/17/2022, Tom Brennan wrote:

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

With BofA the default seems to be an ATM card that is also a debit 
card.  When one was mailed to me I asked for an ATM card only, and 
they sent that instead.


On 6/17/2022 2:36 PM, Farley, Peter x23353 wrote:
Curious - How do you get cash at an ATM directly from your checking 
or savings account without a bank debit card?  Using a credit card 
to get cash from an ATM usually means drawing "Cash Advance" money 
on that card, which is subject to interest costs on the credit cards I own.


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Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and AWS

2022-06-17 Thread Charles Mills

As Phil says (1) the limit is $50, not $500; and (2) for all practical
purposes the limit is $0. Does anyone here know anyone who has ever gotten
dinged for more than $0?

Charles

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
Behalf Of Seymour J Metz
Sent: Friday, June 17, 2022 2:34 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and
AWS

Plus even if the fraud was by an employee issuing the card, you're still on
the hook. Thanks but no thanks.

--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3

From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of
Bill Johnson [0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
Sent: Friday, June 17, 2022 5:28 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and
AWS

The debit card loss is max $500 as long as you report it stolen within 60
days. After 60, unlimited. Agree with you about never having one.

https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fconsumer.f
tc.gov%2Farticles%2Flost-or-stolen-credit-atm-debit-cards%23limit&data=0
5%7C01%7Csmetz3%40gmu.edu%7C125d22a6b7324b05640908da50a84fd6%7C9e857255df574
c47a0c00546460380cb%7C0%7C0%7C637910981072007504%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJ
WIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C
%7C&sdata=ugEJ53tbY1rmlt3mS25zlEWkLfmwQjvT35Vryv5DCsc%3D&reserved=0

Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone

On Friday, June 17, 2022, 5:20 PM, Seymour J Metz  wrote:

In the US, under certain circumstances, there is a $50 cap on fraud losses
with credit cards but the cap for debit cards is $500. That's why I don't
have a debit card and don't plan to eveer have one, absent a change in the
law.

--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3

From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of
Bill Johnson [0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
Sent: Friday, June 17, 2022 2:38 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and
AWS

Ive had at least a dozen credit cards compromised in the last 20 years.
Including JPM. So much for the great non mainframe security & fraud
protection. With credit cards, Im not on the hook for anything, and they
send me a new card overnight. Not true of debit cards. Your losses can be
infinite.

I get hundreds of spam emails on Yahoo daily. But, its not my main email
service. Its disposable. No fear whatsoever.

Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone

On Friday, June 17, 2022, 2:28 PM, David Crayford 
wrote:

On 18/06/2022 2:20 am, Bill Johnson wrote:
> Here you go. Mainframe jobs you can apply for with JPM.

LOLZ! What's that got to do with anything?

>
>
https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.linked
in.com%2Fjobs%2Fjpmorgan-chase-mainframe-jobs&data=05%7C01%7Csmetz3%40gm
u.edu%7C125d22a6b7324b05640908da50a84fd6%7C9e857255df574c47a0c00546460380cb%
7C0%7C0%7C637910981072007504%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJ
QIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=784OFW
QQ%2BS%2BASGLIz1JXqr6TlsSN%2FizVE4qA6Clbkns%3D&reserved=0
>
> Be careful however because LinkedIn has some serious scam issues. Likely
because its on the cloud.

If you fear the cloud so much then stop using Yahoo mail, your bank
cards, entertainment services such as Netflix. Stock up on rations and
batton down the hatches and bunker down ;)

Do you worry that using a cloud based service like Yahoo mail may
compromise your cellphone?

>
>
https://secure-web.cisco.com/1a-kk_waopn-qFFy4YKhpV3UFGHUrt4JHRFYT1D0tsvgsqP
egeIx45CYbmjqCuigB4N32lo-7AbIf9o6d5qh9dTC9w8L_xCSEtGfZ8NuuGIoH4hjhPZCEV6n2J2
R8B_W0zbJmQ9FvbmuoAx5Y_RtWns6XAKayOaiLX_Pv2SskmqOgCAfTPUcjYantSHJgRMhQ52jodu
KdQQvJzuYTIFWlamhm0lQMMZv7pE6Zw74SXh6MKZ16a6bwV5qJ9VkTkAuSekObuC4lKZaLTvsJ-r
gH4HGfkcJqRt3Yng0VRxUXB6YtjEgn9sMQgyBje56hFAGIdEbAQ8aG-pk7fkyjU93cMDvQ5dcJsZ
6aulgzoRxst5VVbifBYBNOoACBaBj1TDuaDhTA8tunTjIZxfZV4mxA63bPRIwDjqHOe7rjpZSLt0
x9K9TF7kKPSkCa5Vz1Lk8z/https%3A%2F%2Fwww.nbcnews.com%2Fnews%2Famp-video%2Fmm
vo142340677837
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
>
> On Friday, June 17, 2022, 1:47 PM, David Crayford 
wrote:
>
> You may want to change banks
>
> 
https://secure-web.cisco.com/1goea_KQlIeBiuE1E0ONqZkBMp6kCM8xtTUHA4YZz5yRuiz
z3TYILb6zuWEezekeE8806rWBnuZFce_qrnsD56zApoSQ1XE0eAwcWoAvNNW-fjQE1TFfX1lWTdi
5cNkMOAd0EuL6qUz5Q9qqt-Q3nrpYVeDS_6bKbLEjqWsuT6OK9ts2sAejMVrC2Osg8ZlqmbCTeLX
Zisbba0Eskx8TDqdHarp8eGJKOEkouUjlGEG4heNfKteCCHy2gjpkIA18q0jycDZXNPGQd9b0d25
VSnRatuL3OS0BeH0XByISclqhoehUX7x8uJmXx4FaJ6PkP0dG1I0HUoKjL2j5TtGPMi2DDme8gWc
3JS3KQujw4BstYZmMp8kXoyBb5VWtRF_g-FtJUWJ7rUu4TBUjaeifNbb15t1

Re: Debit vs Credit card for cash at ATM? [was: RE: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and AWS]

2022-06-17 Thread Tom Brennan

With BofA the default seems to be an ATM card that is also a debit card. 
 When one was mailed to me I asked for an ATM card only, and they sent 
that instead.


On 6/17/2022 2:36 PM, Farley, Peter x23353 wrote:

Curious - How do you get cash at an ATM directly from your checking or savings account 
without a bank debit card?  Using a credit card to get cash from an ATM usually means 
drawing "Cash Advance" money on that card, which is subject to interest costs 
on the credit cards I own.


--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

Re: Debit vs Credit card for cash at ATM? [was: RE: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and AWS]

2022-06-17 Thread Phil Smith III

Peter Farley wrote:

>Curious - How do you get cash at an ATM directly from your checking or
savings account without a bank debit card?  

Right, your ATM card is a debit card. The question is typically whether you
use it as PIN debit, as signature debit, or only as an ATM card.

Signature debit has more protections than PIN debit (if your card has a Visa
or Mastercard logo on it, you can use it as signature debit-that is, like
it's a credit card, swiped/inserted/tapped without entering a PIN) and
settlement happens after the fact, again like credit. If you use it as PIN
debit, settlement is instantaneous, and as others have noted, liability is
higher. The risk that makes some of us never use our ATM cards as debit
cards is that those transactions run on mostly the same rails as credit
transactions, including opportunities for compromise (cf. Target,
Nieman-Marcus, THD, et al.). If you ONLY ever use it with a bank, you're
reducing your risk significantly, since it's Someone Else's Money that will
get drained in a breach.

>Using a credit card to get cash from an ATM usually means drawing "Cash
Advance" money on that card, which is subject to interest costs on the
credit cards I own.

I've used my ATM card occasionally at foreign banks to get cash. Nowadays,
if I were traveling internationally, I might use my corporate credit card
instead, assuming it works for that.

Re card breach liability: yes, there's theoretically a $50 cap; de facto, it
seems to be $0. I've never found anyone who's gotten hit for the $50, and
I've asked hundreds of folks at dozens of presentations I've given on
Payments. I have an unconfirmed theory that if you're a deadbeat-behind on
payments, huge balance, etc.-they might try to ding you, but otherwise
they're not going to risk ticking you off over pennies like that.

Pennies, you say? "Don't those $50 add up?" Not in their eyes: the stats
I've seen show card fraud as pretty stable, around $5-7B/year, against
revenues of $300B (against transactions of $3T-note revenue = ten cents on
the dollar, including late fees, interest, etc.!). Losses to fraud and
bankruptcy are on the order of $50B. So they don't want fraud to increase,
but aren't panicked about it at its current level, really don't care. What
they worry about is that you lose confidence and stop using their cards.

--
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Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and AWS

2022-06-17 Thread Seymour J Metz

"Congratulations; you've invented time sharing!"

--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3

From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Colin Paice [colinpai...@gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, June 17, 2022 1:11 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and AWS

I wish people would use a more accurate term than "cloud".
According to the current wishy washy term "cloud", I was doing "cloud" 40
years ago on VM.
Each user has their own userid to run VS1, it had shared read only mvs
system volumes, a r/w mini disk with spool and paging, and a r/w "user
disk" containing user.parmlib, user.proclib, and the user's data sets.
I always had a spare "user disk" set up.  if someone wanted a VS1/OS2
system, I gave this minidsk to them, and created another user disk.

When "cloud appeared on mid range" we had someone senior present on it.
They were not pleased when we said we had been doing this virtualisation
for about 20+ years.

It all depends on what you mean by the term "cloud".

(It reminds me of a discussion with a mid range developer who said a
product had to support a large number of userids.  After half an hour of
going round in circles I found he thought 1000, was a large number of
userid.  I said on z/OS 100,000 userid was a larg-ish number. - it all
depends on what the term means.)
Colin

On Fri, 17 Jun 2022 at 17:56, zMan  wrote:

> I'm highly suspicious of cloud in general, don't get me wrong. But IBM
> can't just call CICS "cloud" and expect it to mean anything. Calling a tail
> a leg doesn't make it one: when the rest of the industry says "cloud" these
> days, they don't just mean outsourcing, and definitely don't mean CICS. And
> CICS isn't a synonym for outsourcing in any case.
>
> Actually, if you think of cloud services in terms of HTTPS transactions,
> CICS isn't that far off in some ways--but it still isn't the same thing,
> more an older, pre-Internet version of something similar. Yes, CICS can
> serve web pages; that doesn't make CICS = cloud!
>
> "Mainframe modernization" is a pretty bogus term, nicely loaded: "Hmm, if
> mainframe modernization exists, mainframes must be
> old-fashioned/obsolete/behind". Wrong, as we know. "Mainframe emulation" is
> closer, only that tends to make us think zPDT, Hercules, et al.; "z/OS
> emulation" seems more accurate to me, but isn't the term that folks use, so
> it doesn't help at this point. It's a mess.
>
> But none of this discussion, interesting as it is, relates to the fact that
> IBM claims to have a cloud presence BUT has chosen to host their offering
> in AWS. Those two items are pretty hard to reconcile.
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>

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Re: Debit vs Credit card for cash at ATM? [was: RE: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and AWS]

2022-06-17 Thread Farley, Peter x23353

Curious - How do you get cash at an ATM directly from your checking or savings 
account without a bank debit card?  Using a credit card to get cash from an ATM 
usually means drawing "Cash Advance" money on that card, which is subject to 
interest costs on the credit cards I own.

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Bill Johnson
Sent: Friday, June 17, 2022 5:28 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and AWS

The debit card loss is max $500 as long as you report it stolen within 60 days. 
After 60, unlimited. Agree with you about never having one.

https://consumer.ftc.gov/articles/lost-or-stolen-credit-atm-debit-cards*limit 

Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone

On Friday, June 17, 2022, 5:20 PM, Seymour J Metz  wrote:

In the US, under certain circumstances, there is a $50 cap on fraud losses with 
credit cards but the cap for debit cards is $500. That's why I don't have a 
debit card and don't plan to eveer have one, absent a change in the law.
--

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the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination of this 
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in error, please notify us immediately by e-mail and delete the message and any 
attachments from your system.

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Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and AWS

2022-06-17 Thread Seymour J Metz

Plus even if the fraud was by an employee issuing the card, you're still on the 
hook. Thanks but no thanks.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Bill Johnson [0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
Sent: Friday, June 17, 2022 5:28 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and AWS

The debit card loss is max $500 as long as you report it stolen within 60 days. 
After 60, unlimited. Agree with you about never having one.

https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fconsumer.ftc.gov%2Farticles%2Flost-or-stolen-credit-atm-debit-cards%23limit&data=05%7C01%7Csmetz3%40gmu.edu%7C125d22a6b7324b05640908da50a84fd6%7C9e857255df574c47a0c00546460380cb%7C0%7C0%7C637910981072007504%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=ugEJ53tbY1rmlt3mS25zlEWkLfmwQjvT35Vryv5DCsc%3D&reserved=0





Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Friday, June 17, 2022, 5:20 PM, Seymour J Metz  wrote:

In the US, under certain circumstances, there is a $50 cap on fraud losses with 
credit cards but the cap for debit cards is $500. That's why I don't have a 
debit card and don't plan to eveer have one, absent a change in the law.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Bill Johnson [0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
Sent: Friday, June 17, 2022 2:38 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and AWS

I’ve had at least a dozen credit cards compromised in the last 20 years. 
Including JPM. So much for the great non mainframe security & fraud protection. 
With credit cards, I’m not on the hook for anything, and they send me a new 
card overnight. Not true of debit cards. Your losses can be infinite.

I get hundreds of spam emails on Yahoo daily. But, it’s not my main email 
service. It’s disposable. No fear whatsoever.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Friday, June 17, 2022, 2:28 PM, David Crayford  wrote:

On 18/06/2022 2:20 am, Bill Johnson wrote:
> Here you go. Mainframe jobs you can apply for with JPM.

LOLZ! What's that got to do with anything?

>
> https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.linkedin.com%2Fjobs%2Fjpmorgan-chase-mainframe-jobs&data=05%7C01%7Csmetz3%40gmu.edu%7C125d22a6b7324b05640908da50a84fd6%7C9e857255df574c47a0c00546460380cb%7C0%7C0%7C637910981072007504%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=784OFWQQ%2BS%2BASGLIz1JXqr6TlsSN%2FizVE4qA6Clbkns%3D&reserved=0
>
> Be careful however because LinkedIn has some serious scam issues. Likely 
> because it’s on the cloud.

If you fear the cloud so much then stop using Yahoo mail, your bank
cards, entertainment services such as Netflix. Stock up on rations and
batton down the hatches and bunker down ;)

Do you worry that using a cloud based service like Yahoo mail may
compromise your cellphone?

>
> https://secure-web.cisco.com/1a-kk_waopn-qFFy4YKhpV3UFGHUrt4JHRFYT1D0tsvgsqPegeIx45CYbmjqCuigB4N32lo-7AbIf9o6d5qh9dTC9w8L_xCSEtGfZ8NuuGIoH4hjhPZCEV6n2J2R8B_W0zbJmQ9FvbmuoAx5Y_RtWns6XAKayOaiLX_Pv2SskmqOgCAfTPUcjYantSHJgRMhQ52joduKdQQvJzuYTIFWlamhm0lQMMZv7pE6Zw74SXh6MKZ16a6bwV5qJ9VkTkAuSekObuC4lKZaLTvsJ-rgH4HGfkcJqRt3Yng0VRxUXB6YtjEgn9sMQgyBje56hFAGIdEbAQ8aG-pk7fkyjU93cMDvQ5dcJsZ6aulgzoRxst5VVbifBYBNOoACBaBj1TDuaDhTA8tunTjIZxfZV4mxA63bPRIwDjqHOe7rjpZSLt0x9K9TF7kKPSkCa5Vz1Lk8z/https%3A%2F%2Fwww.nbcnews.com%2Fnews%2Famp-video%2Fmmvo142340677837
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
>
> On Friday, June 17, 2022, 1:47 PM, David Crayford  wrote:
>
> You may want to change banks
>
>  
>https://secure-web.cisco.com/1goea_KQlIeBiuE1E0ONqZkBMp6kCM8xtTUHA4YZz5yRuizz3TYILb6zuWEezekeE8806rWBnuZFce_qrnsD56zApoSQ1XE0eAwcWoAvNNW-fjQE1TFfX1lWTdi5cNkMOAd0EuL6qUz5Q9qqt-Q3nrpYVeDS_6bKbLEjqWsuT6OK9ts2sAejMVrC2Osg8ZlqmbCTeLXZisbba0Eskx8TDqdHarp8eGJKOEkouUjlGEG4heNfKteCCHy2gjpkIA18q0jycDZXNPGQd9b0d25VSnRatuL3OS0BeH0XByISclqhoehUX7x8uJmXx4FaJ6PkP0dG1I0HUoKjL2j5TtGPMi2DDme8gWc3JS3KQujw4BstYZmMp8kXoyBb5VWtRF_g-FtJUWJ7rUu4TBUjaeifNbb15t1KxFvKGjdfBkdt5iNXUodWvo-3KSB856AP8vz3-/https%3A%2F%2Fwww.paymentsjournal.com%2Fgo-big-or-go-home-jpm-will-spend-up-to-12b-to-get-to-the-cloud%2Famp%2F
>
>> On 18 Jun 2022, at 01:43, Bill Johnson 
>> <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
>>
>> What’s the difference between JPM’s mainframe and Capital One’s AWS? Other 
>> than one is fast, reliable, and secure and the other is not. Both c

Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and AWS

The debit card loss is max $500 as long as you report it stolen within 60 days. 
After 60, unlimited. Agree with you about never having one.

https://consumer.ftc.gov/articles/lost-or-stolen-credit-atm-debit-cards#limit





Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Friday, June 17, 2022, 5:20 PM, Seymour J Metz  wrote:

In the US, under certain circumstances, there is a $50 cap on fraud losses with 
credit cards but the cap for debit cards is $500. That's why I don't have a 
debit card and don't plan to eveer have one, absent a change in the law.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Bill Johnson [0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
Sent: Friday, June 17, 2022 2:38 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and AWS

I’ve had at least a dozen credit cards compromised in the last 20 years. 
Including JPM. So much for the great non mainframe security & fraud protection. 
With credit cards, I’m not on the hook for anything, and they send me a new 
card overnight. Not true of debit cards. Your losses can be infinite.

I get hundreds of spam emails on Yahoo daily. But, it’s not my main email 
service. It’s disposable. No fear whatsoever.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Friday, June 17, 2022, 2:28 PM, David Crayford  wrote:

On 18/06/2022 2:20 am, Bill Johnson wrote:
> Here you go. Mainframe jobs you can apply for with JPM.

LOLZ! What's that got to do with anything?

>
> https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.linkedin.com%2Fjobs%2Fjpmorgan-chase-mainframe-jobs&data=05%7C01%7Csmetz3%40gmu.edu%7C109ae79c43904311d62a08da5090aeee%7C9e857255df574c47a0c00546460380cb%7C0%7C0%7C637910879605962349%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=yYAASp4mw4TJ42sKULa0rHxhJb8AQELopufXRI8TeAo%3D&reserved=0
>
> Be careful however because LinkedIn has some serious scam issues. Likely 
> because it’s on the cloud.

If you fear the cloud so much then stop using Yahoo mail, your bank
cards, entertainment services such as Netflix. Stock up on rations and
batton down the hatches and bunker down ;)

Do you worry that using a cloud based service like Yahoo mail may
compromise your cellphone?

>
> https://secure-web.cisco.com/1a-kk_waopn-qFFy4YKhpV3UFGHUrt4JHRFYT1D0tsvgsqPegeIx45CYbmjqCuigB4N32lo-7AbIf9o6d5qh9dTC9w8L_xCSEtGfZ8NuuGIoH4hjhPZCEV6n2J2R8B_W0zbJmQ9FvbmuoAx5Y_RtWns6XAKayOaiLX_Pv2SskmqOgCAfTPUcjYantSHJgRMhQ52joduKdQQvJzuYTIFWlamhm0lQMMZv7pE6Zw74SXh6MKZ16a6bwV5qJ9VkTkAuSekObuC4lKZaLTvsJ-rgH4HGfkcJqRt3Yng0VRxUXB6YtjEgn9sMQgyBje56hFAGIdEbAQ8aG-pk7fkyjU93cMDvQ5dcJsZ6aulgzoRxst5VVbifBYBNOoACBaBj1TDuaDhTA8tunTjIZxfZV4mxA63bPRIwDjqHOe7rjpZSLt0x9K9TF7kKPSkCa5Vz1Lk8z/https%3A%2F%2Fwww.nbcnews.com%2Fnews%2Famp-video%2Fmmvo142340677837
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
>
> On Friday, June 17, 2022, 1:47 PM, David Crayford  wrote:
>
> You may want to change banks
>
>  
>https://secure-web.cisco.com/1goea_KQlIeBiuE1E0ONqZkBMp6kCM8xtTUHA4YZz5yRuizz3TYILb6zuWEezekeE8806rWBnuZFce_qrnsD56zApoSQ1XE0eAwcWoAvNNW-fjQE1TFfX1lWTdi5cNkMOAd0EuL6qUz5Q9qqt-Q3nrpYVeDS_6bKbLEjqWsuT6OK9ts2sAejMVrC2Osg8ZlqmbCTeLXZisbba0Eskx8TDqdHarp8eGJKOEkouUjlGEG4heNfKteCCHy2gjpkIA18q0jycDZXNPGQd9b0d25VSnRatuL3OS0BeH0XByISclqhoehUX7x8uJmXx4FaJ6PkP0dG1I0HUoKjL2j5TtGPMi2DDme8gWc3JS3KQujw4BstYZmMp8kXoyBb5VWtRF_g-FtJUWJ7rUu4TBUjaeifNbb15t1KxFvKGjdfBkdt5iNXUodWvo-3KSB856AP8vz3-/https%3A%2F%2Fwww.paymentsjournal.com%2Fgo-big-or-go-home-jpm-will-spend-up-to-12b-to-get-to-the-cloud%2Famp%2F
>
>> On 18 Jun 2022, at 01:43, Bill Johnson 
>> <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
>>
>> What’s the difference between JPM’s mainframe and Capital One’s AWS? Other 
>> than one is fast, reliable, and secure and the other is not. Both can be 
>> located anywhere in the world and accessed from anywhere via all kinds of 
>> devices. Explain the difference. What makes one a cloud and not the other?
>>
>>
>> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>>
>>
>> On Friday, June 17, 2022, 1:36 PM, zMan  wrote:
>>
>> OK...that was the commonality. Either that or you were suggesting that
>> "banking transactions" implies cloud.
>>
>> I saw no "cloud" in anything you listed other than that one bank was
>> running their stuff in AWS. Viewed through that lens, the question doesn't
>> even make sense: "Is this thing that IS in the cloud different from this
>> other thing that's not in the cloud?" Well, yes.
>>
>>> On Fri, Jun 17, 2022 at 1:30 PM Bill Johnson <
>>>

Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and AWS

2022-06-17 Thread Seymour J Metz

In the US, under certain circumstances, there is a $50 cap on fraud losses with 
credit cards but the cap for debit cards is $500. That's why I don't have a 
debit card and don't plan to eveer have one, absent a change in the law.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Bill Johnson [0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
Sent: Friday, June 17, 2022 2:38 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and AWS

I’ve had at least a dozen credit cards compromised in the last 20 years. 
Including JPM. So much for the great non mainframe security & fraud protection. 
With credit cards, I’m not on the hook for anything, and they send me a new 
card overnight. Not true of debit cards. Your losses can be infinite.

I get hundreds of spam emails on Yahoo daily. But, it’s not my main email 
service. It’s disposable. No fear whatsoever.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Friday, June 17, 2022, 2:28 PM, David Crayford  wrote:

On 18/06/2022 2:20 am, Bill Johnson wrote:
> Here you go. Mainframe jobs you can apply for with JPM.

LOLZ! What's that got to do with anything?

>
> https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.linkedin.com%2Fjobs%2Fjpmorgan-chase-mainframe-jobs&data=05%7C01%7Csmetz3%40gmu.edu%7C109ae79c43904311d62a08da5090aeee%7C9e857255df574c47a0c00546460380cb%7C0%7C0%7C637910879605962349%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=yYAASp4mw4TJ42sKULa0rHxhJb8AQELopufXRI8TeAo%3D&reserved=0
>
> Be careful however because LinkedIn has some serious scam issues. Likely 
> because it’s on the cloud.

If you fear the cloud so much then stop using Yahoo mail, your bank
cards, entertainment services such as Netflix. Stock up on rations and
batton down the hatches and bunker down ;)

Do you worry that using a cloud based service like Yahoo mail may
compromise your cellphone?

>
> https://secure-web.cisco.com/1a-kk_waopn-qFFy4YKhpV3UFGHUrt4JHRFYT1D0tsvgsqPegeIx45CYbmjqCuigB4N32lo-7AbIf9o6d5qh9dTC9w8L_xCSEtGfZ8NuuGIoH4hjhPZCEV6n2J2R8B_W0zbJmQ9FvbmuoAx5Y_RtWns6XAKayOaiLX_Pv2SskmqOgCAfTPUcjYantSHJgRMhQ52joduKdQQvJzuYTIFWlamhm0lQMMZv7pE6Zw74SXh6MKZ16a6bwV5qJ9VkTkAuSekObuC4lKZaLTvsJ-rgH4HGfkcJqRt3Yng0VRxUXB6YtjEgn9sMQgyBje56hFAGIdEbAQ8aG-pk7fkyjU93cMDvQ5dcJsZ6aulgzoRxst5VVbifBYBNOoACBaBj1TDuaDhTA8tunTjIZxfZV4mxA63bPRIwDjqHOe7rjpZSLt0x9K9TF7kKPSkCa5Vz1Lk8z/https%3A%2F%2Fwww.nbcnews.com%2Fnews%2Famp-video%2Fmmvo142340677837
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
>
> On Friday, June 17, 2022, 1:47 PM, David Crayford  wrote:
>
> You may want to change banks
>
>  
>https://secure-web.cisco.com/1goea_KQlIeBiuE1E0ONqZkBMp6kCM8xtTUHA4YZz5yRuizz3TYILb6zuWEezekeE8806rWBnuZFce_qrnsD56zApoSQ1XE0eAwcWoAvNNW-fjQE1TFfX1lWTdi5cNkMOAd0EuL6qUz5Q9qqt-Q3nrpYVeDS_6bKbLEjqWsuT6OK9ts2sAejMVrC2Osg8ZlqmbCTeLXZisbba0Eskx8TDqdHarp8eGJKOEkouUjlGEG4heNfKteCCHy2gjpkIA18q0jycDZXNPGQd9b0d25VSnRatuL3OS0BeH0XByISclqhoehUX7x8uJmXx4FaJ6PkP0dG1I0HUoKjL2j5TtGPMi2DDme8gWc3JS3KQujw4BstYZmMp8kXoyBb5VWtRF_g-FtJUWJ7rUu4TBUjaeifNbb15t1KxFvKGjdfBkdt5iNXUodWvo-3KSB856AP8vz3-/https%3A%2F%2Fwww.paymentsjournal.com%2Fgo-big-or-go-home-jpm-will-spend-up-to-12b-to-get-to-the-cloud%2Famp%2F
>
>> On 18 Jun 2022, at 01:43, Bill Johnson 
>> <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
>>
>> What’s the difference between JPM’s mainframe and Capital One’s AWS? Other 
>> than one is fast, reliable, and secure and the other is not. Both can be 
>> located anywhere in the world and accessed from anywhere via all kinds of 
>> devices. Explain the difference. What makes one a cloud and not the other?
>>
>>
>> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>>
>>
>> On Friday, June 17, 2022, 1:36 PM, zMan  wrote:
>>
>> OK...that was the commonality. Either that or you were suggesting that
>> "banking transactions" implies cloud.
>>
>> I saw no "cloud" in anything you listed other than that one bank was
>> running their stuff in AWS. Viewed through that lens, the question doesn't
>> even make sense: "Is this thing that IS in the cloud different from this
>> other thing that's not in the cloud?" Well, yes.
>>
>>> On Fri, Jun 17, 2022 at 1:30 PM Bill Johnson <
>>> 0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
>>>
>>> I never said APP = Cloud. I can get my banking transactions anywhere in
>>> the world from JPM wherever their mainframe is located. The exact same
>>> thing I can do with Capital One via AWS. The APPS are just the front end
>

Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and AWS

2022-06-17 Thread Tom Brennan

If nobody has mentioned it yet, isn't one big difference between a 
Mainframe and Cloud (the average definition) the fact that a company can 
easily move their existing Linux processing to places like AWS, and then 
later if they don't like AWS, move it just as easily to an AWS competitor?


On 6/17/2022 10:42 AM, Bill Johnson wrote:

What’s the difference between JPM’s mainframe and Capital One’s AWS? Other than 
one is fast, reliable, and secure and the other is not. Both can be located 
anywhere in the world and accessed from anywhere via all kinds of devices. 
Explain the difference. What makes one a cloud and not the other?


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Friday, June 17, 2022, 1:36 PM, zMan  wrote:

OK...that was the commonality. Either that or you were suggesting that
"banking transactions" implies cloud.

I saw no "cloud" in anything you listed other than that one bank was
running their stuff in AWS. Viewed through that lens, the question doesn't
even make sense: "Is this thing that IS in the cloud different from this
other thing that's not in the cloud?" Well, yes.

On Fri, Jun 17, 2022 at 1:30 PM Bill Johnson <
0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:


I never said APP = Cloud. I can get my banking transactions anywhere in
the world from JPM wherever their mainframe is located. The exact same
thing I can do with Capital One via AWS. The APPS are just the front end
query mechanism.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Friday, June 17, 2022, 1:22 PM, zMan  wrote:

Correct. App <> cloud.

On Fri, Jun 17, 2022 at 1:04 PM Bill Johnson <
0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:


So if I get my banking transactions by Capital One APP via AWS, that’s
cloud, but if I get those same banking transactions via JP Morgan APP

which

acquires the records via CICS transaction from DB2 that’s not cloud?


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Friday, June 17, 2022, 12:56 PM, zMan  wrote:

I'm highly suspicious of cloud in general, don't get me wrong. But IBM
can't just call CICS "cloud" and expect it to mean anything. Calling a

tail

a leg doesn't make it one: when the rest of the industry says "cloud"

these

days, they don't just mean outsourcing, and definitely don't mean CICS.

And

CICS isn't a synonym for outsourcing in any case.

Actually, if you think of cloud services in terms of HTTPS transactions,
CICS isn't that far off in some ways--but it still isn't the same thing,
more an older, pre-Internet version of something similar. Yes, CICS can
serve web pages; that doesn't make CICS = cloud!

"Mainframe modernization" is a pretty bogus term, nicely loaded: "Hmm, if
mainframe modernization exists, mainframes must be
old-fashioned/obsolete/behind". Wrong, as we know. "Mainframe emulation"

is

closer, only that tends to make us think zPDT, Hercules, et al.; "z/OS
emulation" seems more accurate to me, but isn't the term that folks use,

so

it doesn't help at this point. It's a mess.

But none of this discussion, interesting as it is, relates to the fact

that

IBM claims to have a cloud presence BUT has chosen to host their offering
in AWS. Those two items are pretty hard to reconcile.

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN




--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN




--
zMan -- "I've got a mainframe and I'm not afraid to use it"

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN




--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN






--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and AWS

I’ve had at least a dozen credit cards compromised in the last 20 years. 
Including JPM. So much for the great non mainframe security & fraud protection. 
With credit cards, I’m not on the hook for anything, and they send me a new 
card overnight. Not true of debit cards. Your losses can be infinite. 

I get hundreds of spam emails on Yahoo daily. But, it’s not my main email 
service. It’s disposable. No fear whatsoever. 


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Friday, June 17, 2022, 2:28 PM, David Crayford  wrote:

On 18/06/2022 2:20 am, Bill Johnson wrote:
> Here you go. Mainframe jobs you can apply for with JPM.

LOLZ! What's that got to do with anything?

>
> https://www.linkedin.com/jobs/jpmorgan-chase-mainframe-jobs
>
> Be careful however because LinkedIn has some serious scam issues. Likely 
> because it’s on the cloud.

If you fear the cloud so much then stop using Yahoo mail, your bank 
cards, entertainment services such as Netflix. Stock up on rations and 
batton down the hatches and bunker down ;)

Do you worry that using a cloud based service like Yahoo mail may 
compromise your cellphone?

>
> https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp-video/mmvo142340677837
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
>
> On Friday, June 17, 2022, 1:47 PM, David Crayford  wrote:
>
> You may want to change banks
>
>  
>https://www.paymentsjournal.com/go-big-or-go-home-jpm-will-spend-up-to-12b-to-get-to-the-cloud/amp/
>
>> On 18 Jun 2022, at 01:43, Bill Johnson 
>> <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
>>
>> What’s the difference between JPM’s mainframe and Capital One’s AWS? Other 
>> than one is fast, reliable, and secure and the other is not. Both can be 
>> located anywhere in the world and accessed from anywhere via all kinds of 
>> devices. Explain the difference. What makes one a cloud and not the other?
>>
>>
>> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>>
>>
>> On Friday, June 17, 2022, 1:36 PM, zMan  wrote:
>>
>> OK...that was the commonality. Either that or you were suggesting that
>> "banking transactions" implies cloud.
>>
>> I saw no "cloud" in anything you listed other than that one bank was
>> running their stuff in AWS. Viewed through that lens, the question doesn't
>> even make sense: "Is this thing that IS in the cloud different from this
>> other thing that's not in the cloud?" Well, yes.
>>
>>> On Fri, Jun 17, 2022 at 1:30 PM Bill Johnson <
>>> 0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
>>>
>>> I never said APP = Cloud. I can get my banking transactions anywhere in
>>> the world from JPM wherever their mainframe is located. The exact same
>>> thing I can do with Capital One via AWS. The APPS are just the front end
>>> query mechanism.
>>>
>>>
>>> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>>>
>>>
>>> On Friday, June 17, 2022, 1:22 PM, zMan  wrote:
>>>
>>> Correct. App <> cloud.
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jun 17, 2022 at 1:04 PM Bill Johnson <
>>> 0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
>>>
 So if I get my banking transactions by Capital One APP via AWS, that’s
 cloud, but if I get those same banking transactions via JP Morgan APP
>>> which
 acquires the records via CICS transaction from DB2 that’s not cloud?


 Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


> On Friday, June 17, 2022, 12:56 PM, zMan  wrote:
 I'm highly suspicious of cloud in general, don't get me wrong. But IBM
 can't just call CICS "cloud" and expect it to mean anything. Calling a
>>> tail
 a leg doesn't make it one: when the rest of the industry says "cloud"
>>> these
 days, they don't just mean outsourcing, and definitely don't mean CICS.
>>> And
 CICS isn't a synonym for outsourcing in any case.

 Actually, if you think of cloud services in terms of HTTPS transactions,
 CICS isn't that far off in some ways--but it still isn't the same thing,
 more an older, pre-Internet version of something similar. Yes, CICS can
 serve web pages; that doesn't make CICS = cloud!

 "Mainframe modernization" is a pretty bogus term, nicely loaded: "Hmm, if
 mainframe modernization exists, mainframes must be
 old-fashioned/obsolete/behind". Wrong, as we know. "Mainframe emulation"
>>> is
 closer, only that tends to make us think zPDT, Hercules, et al.; "z/OS
 emulation" seems more accurate to me, but isn't the term that folks use,
>>> so
 it doesn't help at this point. It's a mess.

 But none of this discussion, interesting as it is, relates to the fact
>>> that
 IBM claims to have a cloud presence BUT has chosen to host their offering
 in AWS. Those two items are pretty hard to reconcile.

 --
 For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
 send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN




 --
 For IBM-MAIN subscr

Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and AWS

2022-06-17 Thread Jay Maynard

Oh, merciful $DEITY.

Yeah, LinkedIn has scam problems -  but that's completely orthogonal to
whether they run in the cloud or not.

Could you please stop with the equine sadonecrobestiality now?

On Fri, Jun 17, 2022 at 1:21 PM Bill Johnson <
0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

> Here you go. Mainframe jobs you can apply for with JPM.
>
> https://www.linkedin.com/jobs/jpmorgan-chase-mainframe-jobs
>
> Be careful however because LinkedIn has some serious scam issues. Likely
> because it’s on the cloud.
>
> https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp-video/mmvo142340677837
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
>
> On Friday, June 17, 2022, 1:47 PM, David Crayford 
> wrote:
>
> You may want to change banks
>
>
> https://www.paymentsjournal.com/go-big-or-go-home-jpm-will-spend-up-to-12b-to-get-to-the-cloud/amp/
>
> > On 18 Jun 2022, at 01:43, Bill Johnson <
> 0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
> >
> > What’s the difference between JPM’s mainframe and Capital One’s AWS?
> Other than one is fast, reliable, and secure and the other is not. Both can
> be located anywhere in the world and accessed from anywhere via all kinds
> of devices. Explain the difference. What makes one a cloud and not the
> other?
> >
> >
> > Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
> >
> >
> > On Friday, June 17, 2022, 1:36 PM, zMan  wrote:
> >
> > OK...that was the commonality. Either that or you were suggesting that
> > "banking transactions" implies cloud.
> >
> > I saw no "cloud" in anything you listed other than that one bank was
> > running their stuff in AWS. Viewed through that lens, the question
> doesn't
> > even make sense: "Is this thing that IS in the cloud different from this
> > other thing that's not in the cloud?" Well, yes.
> >
> >> On Fri, Jun 17, 2022 at 1:30 PM Bill Johnson <
> >> 0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
> >>
> >> I never said APP = Cloud. I can get my banking transactions anywhere in
> >> the world from JPM wherever their mainframe is located. The exact same
> >> thing I can do with Capital One via AWS. The APPS are just the front end
> >> query mechanism.
> >>
> >>
> >> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
> >>
> >>
> >> On Friday, June 17, 2022, 1:22 PM, zMan  wrote:
> >>
> >> Correct. App <> cloud.
> >>
> >> On Fri, Jun 17, 2022 at 1:04 PM Bill Johnson <
> >> 0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
> >>
> >>> So if I get my banking transactions by Capital One APP via AWS, that’s
> >>> cloud, but if I get those same banking transactions via JP Morgan APP
> >> which
> >>> acquires the records via CICS transaction from DB2 that’s not cloud?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
> >>>
> >>>
>  On Friday, June 17, 2022, 12:56 PM, zMan 
> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> I'm highly suspicious of cloud in general, don't get me wrong. But IBM
> >>> can't just call CICS "cloud" and expect it to mean anything. Calling a
> >> tail
> >>> a leg doesn't make it one: when the rest of the industry says "cloud"
> >> these
> >>> days, they don't just mean outsourcing, and definitely don't mean CICS.
> >> And
> >>> CICS isn't a synonym for outsourcing in any case.
> >>>
> >>> Actually, if you think of cloud services in terms of HTTPS
> transactions,
> >>> CICS isn't that far off in some ways--but it still isn't the same
> thing,
> >>> more an older, pre-Internet version of something similar. Yes, CICS can
> >>> serve web pages; that doesn't make CICS = cloud!
> >>>
> >>> "Mainframe modernization" is a pretty bogus term, nicely loaded: "Hmm,
> if
> >>> mainframe modernization exists, mainframes must be
> >>> old-fashioned/obsolete/behind". Wrong, as we know. "Mainframe
> emulation"
> >> is
> >>> closer, only that tends to make us think zPDT, Hercules, et al.; "z/OS
> >>> emulation" seems more accurate to me, but isn't the term that folks
> use,
> >> so
> >>> it doesn't help at this point. It's a mess.
> >>>
> >>> But none of this discussion, interesting as it is, relates to the fact
> >> that
> >>> IBM claims to have a cloud presence BUT has chosen to host their
> offering
> >>> in AWS. Those two items are pretty hard to reconcile.
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> >>> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> >>> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> zMan -- "I've got a mainframe and I'm not afraid to use it"
> >>
> >> --
> >> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> >> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ---

Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and AWS

The one thing that you and others do is make assumptions that I think companies 
run or should only run on the mainframe. Heck, even 40 years ago we had 
workloads at GM that ran better on other platforms. The Engineering group ran 
on DEC VAX machines. Often called IBM killer back then. Every shop I’ve been 
has run multiple platforms. I’m not anti public cloud. I’ve seen numerous 
claims that the mainframe is dying, none of which came to fruition. And the 
public cloud won’t replace it either.

Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone

On Friday, June 17, 2022, 2:16 PM, David Crayford  wrote:

On 18/06/2022 2:02 am, Bill Johnson wrote:
> Don’t really care. I’ll be retired soon. The first time it gets hacked, and 
> it will, Jamie will be facing lawsuits that will make the Capital One payout 
> look like pocket change.

JP Morgan Chase already run significant workloads on multi-cloud (AWS, 
Azure and GCP). All banks do. It's where they do fraud detection, 
analytics and providing caching layers for online transactions.

>  Oh, and I’ve got dozens of stories about planned “upgrades” that went awry 
>over the years.

All platforms suffer outages, Bill. We've flogged this to death already. 
https://lmgtfy.app/?q=mainframe+outagehttps://lmgtfy.app/?q=mainframe+outagehttps://lmgtfy.app/?q=mainframe+outagehttps://lmgtfy.app/?q=mainframe+outagehttps://lmgtfy.app/?q=mainframe+outagehttps://lmgtfy.app/?q=mainframe+outage

> I’d bet JPM still runs on a mainframe 10, 20 or more years from now.

I certainly hope so as they're one of our customers! It won't stop them 
trying to get off though. I heard that ING has moved off. It's always 
depressing when a financial services giant leaves the platform.

>
>
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
>
> On Friday, June 17, 2022, 1:47 PM, David Crayford  wrote:
>
> You may want to change banks
>
>  
>https://www.paymentsjournal.com/go-big-or-go-home-jpm-will-spend-up-to-12b-to-get-to-the-cloud/amp/
>
>> On 18 Jun 2022, at 01:43, Bill 
>> Johnson<0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>  wrote:
>>
>> What’s the difference between JPM’s mainframe and Capital One’s AWS? Other 
>> than one is fast, reliable, and secure and the other is not. Both can be 
>> located anywhere in the world and accessed from anywhere via all kinds of 
>> devices. Explain the difference. What makes one a cloud and not the other?
>>
>>
>> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>>
>>
>> On Friday, June 17, 2022, 1:36 PM, zMan  wrote:
>>
>> OK...that was the commonality. Either that or you were suggesting that
>> "banking transactions" implies cloud.
>>
>> I saw no "cloud" in anything you listed other than that one bank was
>> running their stuff in AWS. Viewed through that lens, the question doesn't
>> even make sense: "Is this thing that IS in the cloud different from this
>> other thing that's not in the cloud?" Well, yes.
>>
>>> On Fri, Jun 17, 2022 at 1:30 PM Bill Johnson <
>>> 0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
>>>
>>> I never said APP = Cloud. I can get my banking transactions anywhere in
>>> the world from JPM wherever their mainframe is located. The exact same
>>> thing I can do with Capital One via AWS. The APPS are just the front end
>>> query mechanism.
>>>
>>>
>>> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>>>
>>>
>>> On Friday, June 17, 2022, 1:22 PM, zMan  wrote:
>>>
>>> Correct. App <> cloud.
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jun 17, 2022 at 1:04 PM Bill Johnson <
>>> 0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
>>>
 So if I get my banking transactions by Capital One APP via AWS, that’s
 cloud, but if I get those same banking transactions via JP Morgan APP
>>> which
 acquires the records via CICS transaction from DB2 that’s not cloud?

 Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone

> On Friday, June 17, 2022, 12:56 PM, zMan  wrote:
 I'm highly suspicious of cloud in general, don't get me wrong. But IBM
 can't just call CICS "cloud" and expect it to mean anything. Calling a
>>> tail
 a leg doesn't make it one: when the rest of the industry says "cloud"
>>> these
 days, they don't just mean outsourcing, and definitely don't mean CICS.
>>> And
 CICS isn't a synonym for outsourcing in any case.

 Actually, if you think of cloud services in terms of HTTPS transactions,
 CICS isn't that far off in some ways--but it still isn't the same thing,
 more an older, pre-Internet version of something similar. Yes, CICS can
 serve web pages; that doesn't make CICS = cloud!

 "Mainframe modernization" is a pretty bogus term, nicely loaded: "Hmm, if
 mainframe modernization exists, mainframes must be
 old-fashioned/obsolete/behind". Wrong, as we know. "Mainframe emulation"
>>> is
 closer, only that tends to make us think zPDT, Hercules, et al.; "z/OS
 emulation" seems more accurate to me, but isn't the term that folks use,
>>> so
 it doesn't help at this point. It's a mess.

 But none of this discussion, interes

Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and AWS

2022-06-17 Thread David Crayford

On 18/06/2022 2:20 am, Bill Johnson wrote:

Here you go. Mainframe jobs you can apply for with JPM.

LOLZ! What's that got to do with anything?

https://www.linkedin.com/jobs/jpmorgan-chase-mainframe-jobs

Be careful however because LinkedIn has some serious scam issues. Likely
because it’s on the cloud.

If you fear the cloud so much then stop using Yahoo mail, your bank
cards, entertainment services such as Netflix. Stock up on rations and
batton down the hatches and bunker down ;)

Do you worry that using a cloud based service like Yahoo mail may
compromise your cellphone?

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp-video/mmvo142340677837

Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone

On Friday, June 17, 2022, 1:47 PM, David Crayford wrote:

You may want to change banks

https://www.paymentsjournal.com/go-big-or-go-home-jpm-will-spend-up-to-12b-to-get-to-the-cloud/amp/

On 18 Jun 2022, at 01:43, Bill Johnson
<0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

What’s the difference between JPM’s mainframe and Capital One’s AWS? Other
than one is fast, reliable, and secure and the other is not. Both can be
located anywhere in the world and accessed from anywhere via all kinds of
devices. Explain the difference. What makes one a cloud and not the other?

Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone

On Friday, June 17, 2022, 1:36 PM, zMan wrote:

OK...that was the commonality. Either that or you were suggesting that
"banking transactions" implies cloud.

I saw no "cloud" in anything you listed other than that one bank was
running their stuff in AWS. Viewed through that lens, the question doesn't
even make sense: "Is this thing that IS in the cloud different from this
other thing that's not in the cloud?" Well, yes.

On Fri, Jun 17, 2022 at 1:30 PM Bill Johnson <
0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

I never said APP = Cloud. I can get my banking transactions anywhere in
the world from JPM wherever their mainframe is located. The exact same
thing I can do with Capital One via AWS. The APPS are just the front end
query mechanism.

Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone

On Friday, June 17, 2022, 1:22 PM, zMan wrote:

Correct. App <> cloud.

On Fri, Jun 17, 2022 at 1:04 PM Bill Johnson <
0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

So if I get my banking transactions by Capital One APP via AWS, that’s
cloud, but if I get those same banking transactions via JP Morgan APP

which

acquires the records via CICS transaction from DB2 that’s not cloud?

Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone

On Friday, June 17, 2022, 12:56 PM, zMan wrote:

I'm highly suspicious of cloud in general, don't get me wrong. But IBM
can't just call CICS "cloud" and expect it to mean anything. Calling a

tail

a leg doesn't make it one: when the rest of the industry says "cloud"

these

days, they don't just mean outsourcing, and definitely don't mean CICS.

And

CICS isn't a synonym for outsourcing in any case.

Actually, if you think of cloud services in terms of HTTPS transactions,
CICS isn't that far off in some ways--but it still isn't the same thing,
more an older, pre-Internet version of something similar. Yes, CICS can
serve web pages; that doesn't make CICS = cloud!

"Mainframe modernization" is a pretty bogus term, nicely loaded: "Hmm, if
mainframe modernization exists, mainframes must be
old-fashioned/obsolete/behind". Wrong, as we know. "Mainframe emulation"

closer, only that tends to make us think zPDT, Hercules, et al.; "z/OS
emulation" seems more accurate to me, but isn't the term that folks use,

it doesn't help at this point. It's a mess.

But none of this discussion, interesting as it is, relates to the fact

that

IBM claims to have a cloud presence BUT has chosen to host their offering
in AWS. Those two items are pretty hard to reconcile.

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

--
zMan -- "I've got a mainframe and I'm not afraid to use it"

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

--
zMan -- "I've got a mainframe and I'm not afraid to use it"

--
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send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MA

Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and AWS

Here you go. Mainframe jobs you can apply for with JPM.

https://www.linkedin.com/jobs/jpmorgan-chase-mainframe-jobs

Be careful however because LinkedIn has some serious scam issues. Likely 
because it’s on the cloud.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp-video/mmvo142340677837






Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Friday, June 17, 2022, 1:47 PM, David Crayford  wrote:

You may want to change banks

 
https://www.paymentsjournal.com/go-big-or-go-home-jpm-will-spend-up-to-12b-to-get-to-the-cloud/amp/

> On 18 Jun 2022, at 01:43, Bill Johnson 
> <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
> 
> What’s the difference between JPM’s mainframe and Capital One’s AWS? Other 
> than one is fast, reliable, and secure and the other is not. Both can be 
> located anywhere in the world and accessed from anywhere via all kinds of 
> devices. Explain the difference. What makes one a cloud and not the other?
> 
> 
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
> 
> 
> On Friday, June 17, 2022, 1:36 PM, zMan  wrote:
> 
> OK...that was the commonality. Either that or you were suggesting that
> "banking transactions" implies cloud.
> 
> I saw no "cloud" in anything you listed other than that one bank was
> running their stuff in AWS. Viewed through that lens, the question doesn't
> even make sense: "Is this thing that IS in the cloud different from this
> other thing that's not in the cloud?" Well, yes.
> 
>> On Fri, Jun 17, 2022 at 1:30 PM Bill Johnson <
>> 0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
>> 
>> I never said APP = Cloud. I can get my banking transactions anywhere in
>> the world from JPM wherever their mainframe is located. The exact same
>> thing I can do with Capital One via AWS. The APPS are just the front end
>> query mechanism.
>> 
>> 
>> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>> 
>> 
>> On Friday, June 17, 2022, 1:22 PM, zMan  wrote:
>> 
>> Correct. App <> cloud.
>> 
>> On Fri, Jun 17, 2022 at 1:04 PM Bill Johnson <
>> 0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
>> 
>>> So if I get my banking transactions by Capital One APP via AWS, that’s
>>> cloud, but if I get those same banking transactions via JP Morgan APP
>> which
>>> acquires the records via CICS transaction from DB2 that’s not cloud?
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>>> 
>>> 
 On Friday, June 17, 2022, 12:56 PM, zMan  wrote:
>>> 
>>> I'm highly suspicious of cloud in general, don't get me wrong. But IBM
>>> can't just call CICS "cloud" and expect it to mean anything. Calling a
>> tail
>>> a leg doesn't make it one: when the rest of the industry says "cloud"
>> these
>>> days, they don't just mean outsourcing, and definitely don't mean CICS.
>> And
>>> CICS isn't a synonym for outsourcing in any case.
>>> 
>>> Actually, if you think of cloud services in terms of HTTPS transactions,
>>> CICS isn't that far off in some ways--but it still isn't the same thing,
>>> more an older, pre-Internet version of something similar. Yes, CICS can
>>> serve web pages; that doesn't make CICS = cloud!
>>> 
>>> "Mainframe modernization" is a pretty bogus term, nicely loaded: "Hmm, if
>>> mainframe modernization exists, mainframes must be
>>> old-fashioned/obsolete/behind". Wrong, as we know. "Mainframe emulation"
>> is
>>> closer, only that tends to make us think zPDT, Hercules, et al.; "z/OS
>>> emulation" seems more accurate to me, but isn't the term that folks use,
>> so
>>> it doesn't help at this point. It's a mess.
>>> 
>>> But none of this discussion, interesting as it is, relates to the fact
>> that
>>> IBM claims to have a cloud presence BUT has chosen to host their offering
>>> in AWS. Those two items are pretty hard to reconcile.
>>> 
>>> --
>>> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
>>> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> --
>>> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
>>> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> zMan -- "I've got a mainframe and I'm not afraid to use it"
>> 
>> --
>> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
>> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
>> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> zMan -- "I've got a mainframe and I'm not afraid to use it"
> 
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ---

Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and AWS

2022-06-17 Thread David Crayford

On 18/06/2022 2:02 am, Bill Johnson wrote:

Don’t really care. I’ll be retired soon. The first time it gets hacked, and it
will, Jamie will be facing lawsuits that will make the Capital One payout look
like pocket change.

JP Morgan Chase already run significant workloads on multi-cloud (AWS,
Azure and GCP). All banks do. It's where they do fraud detection,
analytics and providing caching layers for online transactions.

Oh, and I’ve got dozens of stories about planned “upgrades” that went awry
over the years.

All platforms suffer outages, Bill. We've flogged this to death already.
https://lmgtfy.app/?q=mainframe+outagehttps://lmgtfy.app/?q=mainframe+outagehttps://lmgtfy.app/?q=mainframe+outagehttps://lmgtfy.app/?q=mainframe+outagehttps://lmgtfy.app/?q=mainframe+outagehttps://lmgtfy.app/?q=mainframe+outage

I’d bet JPM still runs on a mainframe 10, 20 or more years from now.

I certainly hope so as they're one of our customers! It won't stop them
trying to get off though. I heard that ING has moved off. It's always
depressing when a financial services giant leaves the platform.

Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone

On Friday, June 17, 2022, 1:47 PM, David Crayford wrote:

You may want to change banks

https://www.paymentsjournal.com/go-big-or-go-home-jpm-will-spend-up-to-12b-to-get-to-the-cloud/amp/

On 18 Jun 2022, at 01:43, Bill
Johnson<0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone

On Friday, June 17, 2022, 1:36 PM, zMan wrote:

OK...that was the commonality. Either that or you were suggesting that
"banking transactions" implies cloud.

On Fri, Jun 17, 2022 at 1:30 PM Bill Johnson <
0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone

On Friday, June 17, 2022, 1:22 PM, zMan wrote:

Correct. App <> cloud.

On Fri, Jun 17, 2022 at 1:04 PM Bill Johnson <
0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

So if I get my banking transactions by Capital One APP via AWS, that’s
cloud, but if I get those same banking transactions via JP Morgan APP

which

acquires the records via CICS transaction from DB2 that’s not cloud?

Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone

On Friday, June 17, 2022, 12:56 PM, zMan wrote:

I'm highly suspicious of cloud in general, don't get me wrong. But IBM
can't just call CICS "cloud" and expect it to mean anything. Calling a

tail

a leg doesn't make it one: when the rest of the industry says "cloud"

these

days, they don't just mean outsourcing, and definitely don't mean CICS.

And

CICS isn't a synonym for outsourcing in any case.

"Mainframe modernization" is a pretty bogus term, nicely loaded: "Hmm, if
mainframe modernization exists, mainframes must be
old-fashioned/obsolete/behind". Wrong, as we know. "Mainframe emulation"

closer, only that tends to make us think zPDT, Hercules, et al.; "z/OS
emulation" seems more accurate to me, but isn't the term that folks use,

it doesn't help at this point. It's a mess.

But none of this discussion, interesting as it is, relates to the fact

that

IBM claims to have a cloud presence BUT has chosen to host their offering
in AWS. Those two items are pretty hard to reconcile.

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email tolists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

--
zMan -- "I've got a mainframe and I'm not afraid to use it"

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email tolists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and AWS

Don’t really care. I’ll be retired soon. The first time it gets hacked, and it 
will, Jamie will be facing lawsuits that will make the Capital One payout look 
like pocket change. Oh, and I’ve got dozens of stories about planned “upgrades” 
that went awry over the years. I’d bet JPM still runs on a mainframe 10, 20 or 
more years from now. 


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Friday, June 17, 2022, 1:47 PM, David Crayford  wrote:

You may want to change banks

 
https://www.paymentsjournal.com/go-big-or-go-home-jpm-will-spend-up-to-12b-to-get-to-the-cloud/amp/

> On 18 Jun 2022, at 01:43, Bill Johnson 
> <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
> 
> What’s the difference between JPM’s mainframe and Capital One’s AWS? Other 
> than one is fast, reliable, and secure and the other is not. Both can be 
> located anywhere in the world and accessed from anywhere via all kinds of 
> devices. Explain the difference. What makes one a cloud and not the other?
> 
> 
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
> 
> 
> On Friday, June 17, 2022, 1:36 PM, zMan  wrote:
> 
> OK...that was the commonality. Either that or you were suggesting that
> "banking transactions" implies cloud.
> 
> I saw no "cloud" in anything you listed other than that one bank was
> running their stuff in AWS. Viewed through that lens, the question doesn't
> even make sense: "Is this thing that IS in the cloud different from this
> other thing that's not in the cloud?" Well, yes.
> 
>> On Fri, Jun 17, 2022 at 1:30 PM Bill Johnson <
>> 0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
>> 
>> I never said APP = Cloud. I can get my banking transactions anywhere in
>> the world from JPM wherever their mainframe is located. The exact same
>> thing I can do with Capital One via AWS. The APPS are just the front end
>> query mechanism.
>> 
>> 
>> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>> 
>> 
>> On Friday, June 17, 2022, 1:22 PM, zMan  wrote:
>> 
>> Correct. App <> cloud.
>> 
>> On Fri, Jun 17, 2022 at 1:04 PM Bill Johnson <
>> 0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
>> 
>>> So if I get my banking transactions by Capital One APP via AWS, that’s
>>> cloud, but if I get those same banking transactions via JP Morgan APP
>> which
>>> acquires the records via CICS transaction from DB2 that’s not cloud?
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>>> 
>>> 
 On Friday, June 17, 2022, 12:56 PM, zMan  wrote:
>>> 
>>> I'm highly suspicious of cloud in general, don't get me wrong. But IBM
>>> can't just call CICS "cloud" and expect it to mean anything. Calling a
>> tail
>>> a leg doesn't make it one: when the rest of the industry says "cloud"
>> these
>>> days, they don't just mean outsourcing, and definitely don't mean CICS.
>> And
>>> CICS isn't a synonym for outsourcing in any case.
>>> 
>>> Actually, if you think of cloud services in terms of HTTPS transactions,
>>> CICS isn't that far off in some ways--but it still isn't the same thing,
>>> more an older, pre-Internet version of something similar. Yes, CICS can
>>> serve web pages; that doesn't make CICS = cloud!
>>> 
>>> "Mainframe modernization" is a pretty bogus term, nicely loaded: "Hmm, if
>>> mainframe modernization exists, mainframes must be
>>> old-fashioned/obsolete/behind". Wrong, as we know. "Mainframe emulation"
>> is
>>> closer, only that tends to make us think zPDT, Hercules, et al.; "z/OS
>>> emulation" seems more accurate to me, but isn't the term that folks use,
>> so
>>> it doesn't help at this point. It's a mess.
>>> 
>>> But none of this discussion, interesting as it is, relates to the fact
>> that
>>> IBM claims to have a cloud presence BUT has chosen to host their offering
>>> in AWS. Those two items are pretty hard to reconcile.
>>> 
>>> --
>>> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
>>> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> --
>>> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
>>> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> zMan -- "I've got a mainframe and I'm not afraid to use it"
>> 
>> --
>> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
>> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
>> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> zMan -- "I've got a mainframe and I'm not afraid to use it"
> 
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu wi

Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and AWS

2022-06-17 Thread David Crayford

You may want to change banks

 
https://www.paymentsjournal.com/go-big-or-go-home-jpm-will-spend-up-to-12b-to-get-to-the-cloud/amp/

> On 18 Jun 2022, at 01:43, Bill Johnson 
> <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
> 
> What’s the difference between JPM’s mainframe and Capital One’s AWS? Other 
> than one is fast, reliable, and secure and the other is not. Both can be 
> located anywhere in the world and accessed from anywhere via all kinds of 
> devices. Explain the difference. What makes one a cloud and not the other?
> 
> 
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
> 
> 
> On Friday, June 17, 2022, 1:36 PM, zMan  wrote:
> 
> OK...that was the commonality. Either that or you were suggesting that
> "banking transactions" implies cloud.
> 
> I saw no "cloud" in anything you listed other than that one bank was
> running their stuff in AWS. Viewed through that lens, the question doesn't
> even make sense: "Is this thing that IS in the cloud different from this
> other thing that's not in the cloud?" Well, yes.
> 
>> On Fri, Jun 17, 2022 at 1:30 PM Bill Johnson <
>> 0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
>> 
>> I never said APP = Cloud. I can get my banking transactions anywhere in
>> the world from JPM wherever their mainframe is located. The exact same
>> thing I can do with Capital One via AWS. The APPS are just the front end
>> query mechanism.
>> 
>> 
>> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>> 
>> 
>> On Friday, June 17, 2022, 1:22 PM, zMan  wrote:
>> 
>> Correct. App <> cloud.
>> 
>> On Fri, Jun 17, 2022 at 1:04 PM Bill Johnson <
>> 0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
>> 
>>> So if I get my banking transactions by Capital One APP via AWS, that’s
>>> cloud, but if I get those same banking transactions via JP Morgan APP
>> which
>>> acquires the records via CICS transaction from DB2 that’s not cloud?
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>>> 
>>> 
 On Friday, June 17, 2022, 12:56 PM, zMan  wrote:
>>> 
>>> I'm highly suspicious of cloud in general, don't get me wrong. But IBM
>>> can't just call CICS "cloud" and expect it to mean anything. Calling a
>> tail
>>> a leg doesn't make it one: when the rest of the industry says "cloud"
>> these
>>> days, they don't just mean outsourcing, and definitely don't mean CICS.
>> And
>>> CICS isn't a synonym for outsourcing in any case.
>>> 
>>> Actually, if you think of cloud services in terms of HTTPS transactions,
>>> CICS isn't that far off in some ways--but it still isn't the same thing,
>>> more an older, pre-Internet version of something similar. Yes, CICS can
>>> serve web pages; that doesn't make CICS = cloud!
>>> 
>>> "Mainframe modernization" is a pretty bogus term, nicely loaded: "Hmm, if
>>> mainframe modernization exists, mainframes must be
>>> old-fashioned/obsolete/behind". Wrong, as we know. "Mainframe emulation"
>> is
>>> closer, only that tends to make us think zPDT, Hercules, et al.; "z/OS
>>> emulation" seems more accurate to me, but isn't the term that folks use,
>> so
>>> it doesn't help at this point. It's a mess.
>>> 
>>> But none of this discussion, interesting as it is, relates to the fact
>> that
>>> IBM claims to have a cloud presence BUT has chosen to host their offering
>>> in AWS. Those two items are pretty hard to reconcile.
>>> 
>>> --
>>> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
>>> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> --
>>> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
>>> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> zMan -- "I've got a mainframe and I'm not afraid to use it"
>> 
>> --
>> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
>> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
>> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> zMan -- "I've got a mainframe and I'm not afraid to use it"
> 
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the

Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and AWS

What’s the difference between JPM’s mainframe and Capital One’s AWS? Other than 
one is fast, reliable, and secure and the other is not. Both can be located 
anywhere in the world and accessed from anywhere via all kinds of devices. 
Explain the difference. What makes one a cloud and not the other?


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Friday, June 17, 2022, 1:36 PM, zMan  wrote:

OK...that was the commonality. Either that or you were suggesting that
"banking transactions" implies cloud.

I saw no "cloud" in anything you listed other than that one bank was
running their stuff in AWS. Viewed through that lens, the question doesn't
even make sense: "Is this thing that IS in the cloud different from this
other thing that's not in the cloud?" Well, yes.

On Fri, Jun 17, 2022 at 1:30 PM Bill Johnson <
0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

> I never said APP = Cloud. I can get my banking transactions anywhere in
> the world from JPM wherever their mainframe is located. The exact same
> thing I can do with Capital One via AWS. The APPS are just the front end
> query mechanism.
>
>
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
>
> On Friday, June 17, 2022, 1:22 PM, zMan  wrote:
>
> Correct. App <> cloud.
>
> On Fri, Jun 17, 2022 at 1:04 PM Bill Johnson <
> 0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
>
> > So if I get my banking transactions by Capital One APP via AWS, that’s
> > cloud, but if I get those same banking transactions via JP Morgan APP
> which
> > acquires the records via CICS transaction from DB2 that’s not cloud?
> >
> >
> > Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
> >
> >
> > On Friday, June 17, 2022, 12:56 PM, zMan  wrote:
> >
> > I'm highly suspicious of cloud in general, don't get me wrong. But IBM
> > can't just call CICS "cloud" and expect it to mean anything. Calling a
> tail
> > a leg doesn't make it one: when the rest of the industry says "cloud"
> these
> > days, they don't just mean outsourcing, and definitely don't mean CICS.
> And
> > CICS isn't a synonym for outsourcing in any case.
> >
> > Actually, if you think of cloud services in terms of HTTPS transactions,
> > CICS isn't that far off in some ways--but it still isn't the same thing,
> > more an older, pre-Internet version of something similar. Yes, CICS can
> > serve web pages; that doesn't make CICS = cloud!
> >
> > "Mainframe modernization" is a pretty bogus term, nicely loaded: "Hmm, if
> > mainframe modernization exists, mainframes must be
> > old-fashioned/obsolete/behind". Wrong, as we know. "Mainframe emulation"
> is
> > closer, only that tends to make us think zPDT, Hercules, et al.; "z/OS
> > emulation" seems more accurate to me, but isn't the term that folks use,
> so
> > it doesn't help at this point. It's a mess.
> >
> > But none of this discussion, interesting as it is, relates to the fact
> that
> > IBM claims to have a cloud presence BUT has chosen to host their offering
> > in AWS. Those two items are pretty hard to reconcile.
> >
> > --
> > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
> >
>
>
> --
> zMan -- "I've got a mainframe and I'm not afraid to use it"
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>
>
>
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>


-- 
zMan -- "I've got a mainframe and I'm not afraid to use it"

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN




--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and AWS

2022-06-17 Thread zMan

OK...that was the commonality. Either that or you were suggesting that
"banking transactions" implies cloud.

I saw no "cloud" in anything you listed other than that one bank was
running their stuff in AWS. Viewed through that lens, the question doesn't
even make sense: "Is this thing that IS in the cloud different from this
other thing that's not in the cloud?" Well, yes.

On Fri, Jun 17, 2022 at 1:30 PM Bill Johnson <
0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

> I never said APP = Cloud. I can get my banking transactions anywhere in
> the world from JPM wherever their mainframe is located. The exact same
> thing I can do with Capital One via AWS. The APPS are just the front end
> query mechanism.
>
>
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
>
> On Friday, June 17, 2022, 1:22 PM, zMan  wrote:
>
> Correct. App <> cloud.
>
> On Fri, Jun 17, 2022 at 1:04 PM Bill Johnson <
> 0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
>
> > So if I get my banking transactions by Capital One APP via AWS, that’s
> > cloud, but if I get those same banking transactions via JP Morgan APP
> which
> > acquires the records via CICS transaction from DB2 that’s not cloud?
> >
> >
> > Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
> >
> >
> > On Friday, June 17, 2022, 12:56 PM, zMan  wrote:
> >
> > I'm highly suspicious of cloud in general, don't get me wrong. But IBM
> > can't just call CICS "cloud" and expect it to mean anything. Calling a
> tail
> > a leg doesn't make it one: when the rest of the industry says "cloud"
> these
> > days, they don't just mean outsourcing, and definitely don't mean CICS.
> And
> > CICS isn't a synonym for outsourcing in any case.
> >
> > Actually, if you think of cloud services in terms of HTTPS transactions,
> > CICS isn't that far off in some ways--but it still isn't the same thing,
> > more an older, pre-Internet version of something similar. Yes, CICS can
> > serve web pages; that doesn't make CICS = cloud!
> >
> > "Mainframe modernization" is a pretty bogus term, nicely loaded: "Hmm, if
> > mainframe modernization exists, mainframes must be
> > old-fashioned/obsolete/behind". Wrong, as we know. "Mainframe emulation"
> is
> > closer, only that tends to make us think zPDT, Hercules, et al.; "z/OS
> > emulation" seems more accurate to me, but isn't the term that folks use,
> so
> > it doesn't help at this point. It's a mess.
> >
> > But none of this discussion, interesting as it is, relates to the fact
> that
> > IBM claims to have a cloud presence BUT has chosen to host their offering
> > in AWS. Those two items are pretty hard to reconcile.
> >
> > --
> > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
> >
>
>
> --
> zMan -- "I've got a mainframe and I'm not afraid to use it"
>
> --
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> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>
>
>
>
> --
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Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and AWS

I never said APP = Cloud. I can get my banking transactions anywhere in the 
world from JPM wherever their mainframe is located. The exact same thing I can 
do with Capital One via AWS. The APPS are just the front end query mechanism.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Friday, June 17, 2022, 1:22 PM, zMan  wrote:

Correct. App <> cloud.

On Fri, Jun 17, 2022 at 1:04 PM Bill Johnson <
0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

> So if I get my banking transactions by Capital One APP via AWS, that’s
> cloud, but if I get those same banking transactions via JP Morgan APP which
> acquires the records via CICS transaction from DB2 that’s not cloud?
>
>
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
>
> On Friday, June 17, 2022, 12:56 PM, zMan  wrote:
>
> I'm highly suspicious of cloud in general, don't get me wrong. But IBM
> can't just call CICS "cloud" and expect it to mean anything. Calling a tail
> a leg doesn't make it one: when the rest of the industry says "cloud" these
> days, they don't just mean outsourcing, and definitely don't mean CICS. And
> CICS isn't a synonym for outsourcing in any case.
>
> Actually, if you think of cloud services in terms of HTTPS transactions,
> CICS isn't that far off in some ways--but it still isn't the same thing,
> more an older, pre-Internet version of something similar. Yes, CICS can
> serve web pages; that doesn't make CICS = cloud!
>
> "Mainframe modernization" is a pretty bogus term, nicely loaded: "Hmm, if
> mainframe modernization exists, mainframes must be
> old-fashioned/obsolete/behind". Wrong, as we know. "Mainframe emulation" is
> closer, only that tends to make us think zPDT, Hercules, et al.; "z/OS
> emulation" seems more accurate to me, but isn't the term that folks use, so
> it doesn't help at this point. It's a mess.
>
> But none of this discussion, interesting as it is, relates to the fact that
> IBM claims to have a cloud presence BUT has chosen to host their offering
> in AWS. Those two items are pretty hard to reconcile.
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>
>
>
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>


-- 
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Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and AWS

2022-06-17 Thread zMan

Correct. App <> cloud.

On Fri, Jun 17, 2022 at 1:04 PM Bill Johnson <
0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

> So if I get my banking transactions by Capital One APP via AWS, that’s
> cloud, but if I get those same banking transactions via JP Morgan APP which
> acquires the records via CICS transaction from DB2 that’s not cloud?
>
>
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
>
> On Friday, June 17, 2022, 12:56 PM, zMan  wrote:
>
> I'm highly suspicious of cloud in general, don't get me wrong. But IBM
> can't just call CICS "cloud" and expect it to mean anything. Calling a tail
> a leg doesn't make it one: when the rest of the industry says "cloud" these
> days, they don't just mean outsourcing, and definitely don't mean CICS. And
> CICS isn't a synonym for outsourcing in any case.
>
> Actually, if you think of cloud services in terms of HTTPS transactions,
> CICS isn't that far off in some ways--but it still isn't the same thing,
> more an older, pre-Internet version of something similar. Yes, CICS can
> serve web pages; that doesn't make CICS = cloud!
>
> "Mainframe modernization" is a pretty bogus term, nicely loaded: "Hmm, if
> mainframe modernization exists, mainframes must be
> old-fashioned/obsolete/behind". Wrong, as we know. "Mainframe emulation" is
> closer, only that tends to make us think zPDT, Hercules, et al.; "z/OS
> emulation" seems more accurate to me, but isn't the term that folks use, so
> it doesn't help at this point. It's a mess.
>
> But none of this discussion, interesting as it is, relates to the fact that
> IBM claims to have a cloud presence BUT has chosen to host their offering
> in AWS. Those two items are pretty hard to reconcile.
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>
>
>
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>


-- 
zMan -- "I've got a mainframe and I'm not afraid to use it"

--
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Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and AWS

2022-06-17 Thread Colin Paice

I wish people would use a more accurate term than "cloud".
According to the current wishy washy term "cloud", I was doing "cloud" 40
years ago on VM.
Each user has their own userid to run VS1, it had shared read only mvs
system volumes, a r/w mini disk with spool and paging, and a r/w "user
disk" containing user.parmlib, user.proclib, and the user's data sets.
I always had a spare "user disk" set up.  if someone wanted a VS1/OS2
system, I gave this minidsk to them, and created another user disk.

When "cloud appeared on mid range" we had someone senior present on it.
They were not pleased when we said we had been doing this virtualisation
for about 20+ years.

It all depends on what you mean by the term "cloud".

(It reminds me of a discussion with a mid range developer who said a
product had to support a large number of userids.  After half an hour of
going round in circles I found he thought 1000, was a large number of
userid.  I said on z/OS 100,000 userid was a larg-ish number. - it all
depends on what the term means.)
Colin

On Fri, 17 Jun 2022 at 17:56, zMan  wrote:

> I'm highly suspicious of cloud in general, don't get me wrong. But IBM
> can't just call CICS "cloud" and expect it to mean anything. Calling a tail
> a leg doesn't make it one: when the rest of the industry says "cloud" these
> days, they don't just mean outsourcing, and definitely don't mean CICS. And
> CICS isn't a synonym for outsourcing in any case.
>
> Actually, if you think of cloud services in terms of HTTPS transactions,
> CICS isn't that far off in some ways--but it still isn't the same thing,
> more an older, pre-Internet version of something similar. Yes, CICS can
> serve web pages; that doesn't make CICS = cloud!
>
> "Mainframe modernization" is a pretty bogus term, nicely loaded: "Hmm, if
> mainframe modernization exists, mainframes must be
> old-fashioned/obsolete/behind". Wrong, as we know. "Mainframe emulation" is
> closer, only that tends to make us think zPDT, Hercules, et al.; "z/OS
> emulation" seems more accurate to me, but isn't the term that folks use, so
> it doesn't help at this point. It's a mess.
>
> But none of this discussion, interesting as it is, relates to the fact that
> IBM claims to have a cloud presence BUT has chosen to host their offering
> in AWS. Those two items are pretty hard to reconcile.
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>

--
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Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and AWS

So if I get my banking transactions by Capital One APP via AWS, that’s cloud, 
but if I get those same banking transactions via JP Morgan APP which acquires 
the records via CICS transaction from DB2 that’s not cloud?


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Friday, June 17, 2022, 12:56 PM, zMan  wrote:

I'm highly suspicious of cloud in general, don't get me wrong. But IBM
can't just call CICS "cloud" and expect it to mean anything. Calling a tail
a leg doesn't make it one: when the rest of the industry says "cloud" these
days, they don't just mean outsourcing, and definitely don't mean CICS. And
CICS isn't a synonym for outsourcing in any case.

Actually, if you think of cloud services in terms of HTTPS transactions,
CICS isn't that far off in some ways--but it still isn't the same thing,
more an older, pre-Internet version of something similar. Yes, CICS can
serve web pages; that doesn't make CICS = cloud!

"Mainframe modernization" is a pretty bogus term, nicely loaded: "Hmm, if
mainframe modernization exists, mainframes must be
old-fashioned/obsolete/behind". Wrong, as we know. "Mainframe emulation" is
closer, only that tends to make us think zPDT, Hercules, et al.; "z/OS
emulation" seems more accurate to me, but isn't the term that folks use, so
it doesn't help at this point. It's a mess.

But none of this discussion, interesting as it is, relates to the fact that
IBM claims to have a cloud presence BUT has chosen to host their offering
in AWS. Those two items are pretty hard to reconcile.

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN




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Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and AWS

2022-06-17 Thread zMan

I'm highly suspicious of cloud in general, don't get me wrong. But IBM
can't just call CICS "cloud" and expect it to mean anything. Calling a tail
a leg doesn't make it one: when the rest of the industry says "cloud" these
days, they don't just mean outsourcing, and definitely don't mean CICS. And
CICS isn't a synonym for outsourcing in any case.

Actually, if you think of cloud services in terms of HTTPS transactions,
CICS isn't that far off in some ways--but it still isn't the same thing,
more an older, pre-Internet version of something similar. Yes, CICS can
serve web pages; that doesn't make CICS = cloud!

"Mainframe modernization" is a pretty bogus term, nicely loaded: "Hmm, if
mainframe modernization exists, mainframes must be
old-fashioned/obsolete/behind". Wrong, as we know. "Mainframe emulation" is
closer, only that tends to make us think zPDT, Hercules, et al.; "z/OS
emulation" seems more accurate to me, but isn't the term that folks use, so
it doesn't help at this point. It's a mess.

But none of this discussion, interesting as it is, relates to the fact that
IBM claims to have a cloud presence BUT has chosen to host their offering
in AWS. Those two items are pretty hard to reconcile.

--
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Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and AWS

2022-06-17 Thread Ronald Wells

https://krebsonsecurity.com/2019/08/what-we-can-learn-from-the-capital-one-hack/

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Bill Johnson
Sent: Friday, June 17, 2022 10:13 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and AWS

** EXTERNAL EMAIL - USE CAUTION **


If the AWS, Azure, & other clouds aren't cheaper than the mainframe, why 
transition? What "benefits" are there on AWS that's not available on the 
mainframe? Except the lack of security, downtime, and slower speed the public 
clouds give you.

https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.bloomberg.com%2Fnews%2Farticles%2F2021-12-23%2Fcapital-one-agrees-to-190-million-settlement-in-cyber-lawsuit&data=05%7C01%7CRon.Wells%40OMF.COM%7C3ecd3a4dea6b421eebbb08da5073e0c5%7C57c0053cb5f84a1e8bb6e8afa09f3b82%7C0%7C0%7C637910755881909404%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=KALNgpz9L9eNzmeKEGhPsrWhYrQcf1e5hbUlAzEGSao%3D&reserved=0





Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Friday, June 17, 2022, 11:00 AM, kekronbekron 
<02dee3fcae33-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

"Sure, AWS, Azure, Oracle cloud & numerous others are creating cheap, 
unsecured, unreliable, platforms for"
Cloud ain't cheap my friend. The same IBM pricing monstrosity of choices and 
clauses has reborn as cloud pricing for the different components.
We (as in people in general) hear anecdotes of pricing/spend whoopsie from 
cloud a lot, mainly AWS.

On unsecured & unreliable, well... no one can 100% agree to that.
Would you blame IBM if your CICS 5.6 region was setup to run with 3KB EDSA or 
something dumb like that.
Best not to nitpick that exact example, but rather just the point that 
reliability is engineered & a choice.

"... if they're hacked or down for one of many reasons."
There's no point in picking sides for common problems/goals such as securing 
platforms & networks.

"As Capital One found out and lost almost 200 million for the pleasure."
What happened there?

- KB

--- Original Message ---
On Friday, June 17th, 2022 at 7:15 PM, Ronald Wells 
<02ebc63ff5ef-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:


> Well put---thank you
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU On Behalf
> Of Bill Johnson
>
> Sent: Friday, June 17, 2022 8:31 AM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with
> IBM and AWS
>
> ** EXTERNAL EMAIL - USE CAUTION **
>
>
> Cloud - Something the mainframe has been doing for decades. We called it 
> outsourcing. GM ran their entire organization out of mainframes in Charlotte, 
> Dallas, & perhaps another in the 80's. The internet just made it easier, and 
> less secure & reliable. Brought outsourcing to a wider audience.
>
> Mainframe modernization. An oxymoron. Like saying today's cars are like cars 
> from 50 years ago. The mainframe is more advanced than any other platforms. 
> Billions of dollars of investment and patented technologies have guaranteed 
> its place for decades to come.
>
> Sure, AWS, Azure, Oracle cloud & numerous others are creating cheap, 
> unsecured, unreliable, platforms for small businesses, picture storage, 
> emails, instant messaging, and many other tasks that aren't show stoppers if 
> they're hacked or down for one of many reasons. As Capital One found out and 
> lost almost 200 million for the pleasure.
>
> I enjoy the glee that many of you exude when IBM has what might be perceived 
> as negative news. I saw the same glee when in the 90's some idiot said the 
> mainframe would be history circa 2000.
>
>
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
>
> On Friday, June 17, 2022, 9:06 AM, zMan zedgarhoo...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>
> On Fri, Jun 17, 2022 at 5:50 AM David Crayford dcrayf...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > Maybe it's the case that customers don't want to use IBMs cloud.
> > Where I live in Australia the big four banks are moving significant
> > chunks of their infrastructure to public cloud and have government
> > legislation to do so. NAB in particular have been quite aggressive,
> > although like most sensible enterprises they have gone down the
> > multi-cloud route with Microsoft Azure so they don't have all their eggs in 
> > one basket.
> >
> > It will be interesting to see if IBM can close the cloud gap.
> > Playing catch-up is difficult when competing with behemoths with a
> > decade+ head start.
>
>
> Indeed. Word from insiders is that since IBM "management&

Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and AWS