Re: Re: [ilugd] Re: [LIG] [OT] Sarovar, Fairplay, Apple
I think killing somebody is correct also... because everything is
fair in business... lawyer is correct in defending criminals because its
his business ... killer is correct because its his business ... moreover
nobody is guilty until proven guilty ... similarly judge is correct in
taking bribe ... because he is not guilty unless proven, which ain't
happening anyway.
Bingo...U are 100% right and i agree with you. But talking on being
right/wrong, guilty/non-guiltyits kind of vendantha[Philosophy]. If
you would like to chat that subject of being right/wrong or what is the so
called right or what is the so called wrong we should take this out of this
list. [Hint : Choice of Majority is right...What happens to Minority
?...they DIE]
Then what I can't understand is why people blame politicians for
corruption. Because no Laloo, no Jayalalita, no nobody is corrupt (read
guilty) unless proven guilty under law; and the laws themselves have been
created by the very people we are trying to enforce them upon.
Laloo is not GuiltyHe is still contesting... Jayalalita is not guilty
[ I remeber the poor female who was thrown out of a Police jeep when MGR
died...was it right or wrong ?, she Rules now]. People do Hail them, Elect
them, and they do make laws...and police do make money on the basis of those
laws. [Law : Choice of Majority...What happens to Minority...they are
PUNISHED/KILLED]
Talking of wars: even war are fought keeping certain rules in mind.
100 % DisagreeThe rules are to minimise damage on our side...Hell with
the Other side.[Hint: If they cant nuke us or no other
damage{Political/Commercial}for nuking themNUKE them!!!][eg: LittleBoy
in Japan, Naplam on Vietnam, MOAB on Iraq]
And these rules are by the mutual agreement of the two sides involved and
not
made by the dominating side.
100% Wrong. Germans never put anything major on to the treaty with either
us/ussr after WW2. Japan the same. Even Bangladesh today exists because...It
surrendered to India. Only dominating side make rules, anyone who wont
follow is called a Terrorist and SHOT @ SIGHT
I (I don't know about you) hate US for
forcing war in Iraq, due to oil, which is also business BTW. If every
thing is fair in business than this killing of innocent people in Iraq is
fair also.
If i was Amercian President...yes i am fair[Question me ...i will kill u
too]. [But i hate the us of a]
Because in the end Bush (personally) will be wealthier by
millions of dollars and twenty years henceforth will be hailed as on of
the greatest leaders of out time, because history and laws are being
written by him and/or his poodles. Same is the case with software giants.
100% Agree.
hail democracy, heck!
Hic...Hic...
PS:
evrything is fair in business and it is my business (and of some others)
to throw M$ and others out of competition, so what's the arguement anyway
:)
Supari Bill Gates.ha ha ha
Regards
Eswar the MAD!!
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Re: [ilugd] Re: [LIG] [OT] Sarovar, Fairplay, Apple
a lot of snip Two things: - Viksit seems to have a million bucks. Viksit - I am a cute blonde with blue eyes and naughty friends. - To the quote the Chink in Even the Cowgirls Get the Blues - Ha ha, ho ho and hee hee -- Regards, Varun Varma --- Mindframe Software Services Pvt. Ltd. http://www.mindsw.com --- ___ ilugd mailinglist -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
Re: [ilugd] Re: [LIG] [OT] Sarovar, Fairplay, Apple
Eswar wrote: listBusiness is War and i will use all means to win in it, Fair or unfair...[This is why i never own a business :)] I agree that business is war! But the kind of means I use is important. I need to play within the rules - if I dont, i should be corrected/punished/prosecuted. There might be loopholes in rules - but whether I choose to use these loopholes or not defines the character of the company. Over time the exploitation of these loopholes might give me enough success to give me a monopoly (hint! hint! ;) but then my actions should be monitored for the larger interests of the society. - Sandip -- Sandip Bhattacharya sandip (at) puroga.com Puroga Technologies Pvt. Ltd. Work: http://www.puroga.comHome: http://www.sandipb.net GPG: 51A4 6C57 4BC6 8C82 6A65 AE78 B1A1 2280 A129 0FF3 ___ ilugd mailinglist -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
Re: [ilugd] Re: [LIG] [OT] Sarovar, Fairplay, Apple
On Mon, 19 Apr 2004, Eswar wrote: Business is War and i will use all means to win in it, Fair or unfair...[This is why i never own a business :)] I think killing somebody is correct also... because everything is fair in business... lawyer is correct in defending criminals because its his business ... killer is correct because its his business ... moreover nobody is guilty until proven guilty ... similarly judge is correct in taking bribe ... because he is not guilty unless proven, which ain't happening anyway. Then what I can't understand is why people blame politicians for corruption. Because no Laloo, no Jayalalita, no nobody is corrupt (read guilty) unless proven guilty under law; and the laws themselves have been created by the very people we are trying to enforce them upon. Talking of wars: even war are fought keeping certain rules in mind. And these rules are by the mutual agreement of the two sides involved and not made by the dominating side. I (I don't know about you) hate US for forcing war in Iraq, due to oil, which is also business BTW. If every thing is fair in business than this killing of innocent people in Iraq is fair also. Because in the end Bush (personally) will be wealthier by millions of dollars and twenty years henceforth will be hailed as on of the greatest leaders of out time, because history and laws are being written by him and/or his poodles. Same is the case with software giants. hail democracy, heck! PS: evrything is fair in business and it is my business (and of some others) to throw M$ and others out of competition, so what's the arguement anyway :) .. -- Two statements: `` 640K ought to be enough for anybody.'' -- Bill Gates ``Windows ought to be enough for anybody.'' -- Anon Ymous ___ ilugd mailinglist -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
Re: [ilugd] Re: [LIG] [OT] Sarovar, Fairplay, Apple
From: Raj Mathur [EMAIL PROTECTED] I think you're missing the important point here -- stealing music is illegal, but providing tools that MAY be used to steal music isn't. Raj. My question here is : what if the tool is very specifically created to steal music, and is also promoted as such. I doubt that MAY was applicable here. Pls educate me -- what other uses was that tool for, what did he promote it as ... was it accidentally used by *everyone* to rip iTunes without his *ever* saying it could. If we support the banning of tools that may possibly be used for illegal purposes we'll have to ban just about everything -- starting with computers, Winduhs, Linux, gdb, nmap, C compilers, Perl, netstat, ping, mutt, Emacs, EVERYTHING! I think the intention of these tools was never bad, whereas the software in question was (or MAY HAVE BEEN) intended to do something arguably illegal/harmful. No. If you want to protect your music don't protect the people who write software -- prosecute those who use the software to perform illegal acts. Remember -- it's not the tool that is illegal, it's the use to which it is put by an individual that is or is not. To take an extreme example, can i create and freely distribute anthrax with instructions on how to kill people with it, and still be absolved of all blame when others use it as I suggest. I dont believe anthrax has any useful (other) use (just an example). I also think there are many many avenues for creativity/innovation - we dont have to target one another's softwares and claim that thats the only avenue. -- cheers, rk. ___ ilugd mailinglist -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
Re: [ilugd] Re: [LIG] [OT] Sarovar, Fairplay, Apple
Hey! My question here is : what if the tool is very specifically created to steal music, and is also promoted as such. I doubt that MAY was applicable here. Pls educate me -- what other uses was that tool for, what did he promote it as ... was it accidentally used by *everyone* to rip iTunes without his *ever* saying it could. Well, AFAIK, Fairplay *wasn't* promoted or touted as being the free, bad-ass way of stealing itunes. It was probably developed by the author to see if he *could* crack the itunes encrypted AAC's - much like the tons of tutorials out there which tell you how to make dirty nuclear bombs or floppy drives which explode on inserting a floppy... Ever heard of the anarchist's cookbook? How are there millions of copies online? I think the intention of these tools was never bad, whereas the software in question was (or MA Y HAVE BEEN) intended to do something arguably illegal/harmful. The intention of the tools themselves isn't in question here. Its how you actually use emacs to write a deadly worm or use windows to compromise security :) which matters. To take an extreme example, can i create and freely distribute anthrax with instructions on how to kill people with it, and still be absolved of all blame when others use it as I suggest. I dont believe anthrax has any useful (other) use (just an example). I dont agree. Software of any kind (except for only ONE exception) has never directly resulted in the deaths of innocent human beings - a consequence more dire than any loss or profit a company might undergo. (Interestingly, the program I'm talking about was one which displayed psychedellic colors and patterns on screen, along with a screech, which lead to someone hamaeoraging his brain) The hacker ethic (NOT Crackers) is all about going through and creating/modifying code to suit your own purpose. If I find an algorithm interesting enough, I'm gonna try and break it, provided it ultimately helps me sleep better at night, or allows me to play my favourite music on another device.. I also think there are many many avenues for creativity/innovation - we dont have to target one another's softwares and claim that thats the only avenue. Well, how would YOU do it? = -- Viksit Gaur http://www.viksit.com me[at]viksit.com viksit[at]linux-delhi[dot]org 'Not all who wander are lost.' - J.R.R. Tolkien, The Fellowship of the Ring __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos: High-quality 4x6 digital prints for 25ยข http://photos.yahoo.com/ph/print_splash ___ ilugd mailinglist -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
Re: [ilugd] Re: [LIG] [OT] Sarovar, Fairplay, Apple
Rahul Kumar wrote: From: Raj Mathur [EMAIL PROTECTED] I think you're missing the important point here -- stealing music is illegal, but providing tools that MAY be used to steal music isn't. Raj. My question here is : what if the tool is very specifically created to steal music, and is also promoted as such. I doubt that MAY was applicable here. Pls educate me -- what other uses was that tool for, what did he promote it as ... was it accidentally used by *everyone* to rip iTunes without his *ever* saying it could. I will give you an example. You buy a K.L.Saigal song from iTunes. It is a very rare song, very difficult to find in MP3 format. You play it on your PC and then after a few days you have this unexplained urge to play it in the Samsung Yepp (a sleek,portable mp3 player ) that you have. However you notice that the song cannot be played in Yepp as it does not support the Apple AAC format. No problem, here is what you can do - - buy an iPod (really you must have some serious money in your pocket) - Go to Kaaza, search for fairplay.tar.gz, download it,compile it and rip the AAC format to mp3 , download the song to Yepp and live happily ever after. Moral of the story: Using a contrived story, you can prove anything :-) Seriously, is my story far fetched ? Is it not an example of fair use? -- / \__ (@\___Raj Shekhar / O My home : http://geocities.com/lunatech3007/ / (_/My blog : http://lunatech.journalspace.com/ /_/ U ___ ilugd mailinglist -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
Re: [ilugd] Re: [LIG] [OT] Sarovar, Fairplay, Apple
Sanjeev Ghane Gupta wrote: snip Please, folks, we jump on people who post technical questions without googling. Why not google before one discusses the law? Because everyone in this discussion, with you as the only notable exception, has taken a moral position on the topic, instead of a legal one. People, as Sanjeev has consistently pointed out, the law is the law - it is not what you want it to be. It has very narrow and specific definitions of what is/is not allowed. In a free society, you are allowed to disagree with laws. But the methods of disagreement are equally well defined...breaking laws and then claiming that you never agreed with them in the first place certainly isn't a mechanism. I certainly don't need to point out the anarchy that would arise if a well defined process is not followed for changing existing laws. If anyone feels strongly about changing copyright and/or IP laws, please file PILs or petitions to your local political representatives or relevant judicial review panels. Please don't support softwares/people who willfully break laws and look at loopholes like relocating to India as a safe-haven, even if you feel that the original law that forced them to do so is archaic. Regards, Varun Varma P.S.: Sanjee, the unfortunate thing in all of this is that you and I may be seen as the Devil's Advocates for suggesting that laws should be respected. --- Mindframe Software Services Pvt. Ltd. http://www.mindsw.com --- ___ ilugd mailinglist -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
Re: [ilugd] Re: [LIG] [OT] Sarovar, Fairplay, Apple
Varun Varma wrote: If anyone feels strongly about changing copyright and/or IP laws, please file PILs or petitions to your local political representatives or relevant judicial review panels. What is going on here is just the first step of such a thing. You cant just go ahead and file a petition without having a public debate over it. Yes, this might not be the perfect forum for it - but again, let us not forget what this forum (ILUGD) is about - it is not just technology it is also the philosophy. To all those who say we stick to linux in all our talks here - well, you are right and wrong. Right, because this particular list has probably(some say mistakenly) given the impression that it is a strictly technical one. But wrong, if you say it should stay that way. I cant say this emphatically enough - ILUGD is not just about how to use Linux, it is also about how we sustain the techno-social environment in which Linux and the GNU movement came about in the first place. So subscribers of this list who are into Linux solely for technology or commercial benefits might sometime see discussions which might not bring direct technical or commercial benefits to them. The [EMAIL PROTECTED] list is unfortunately a catch-all for all discussions. There should ideally be a separate list for those interested in discussing freedom and other philosophical reasons on the line of LIG. But that might not be a good idea because: a. The traffic might not be good enough to merit a separate list. b. Most importantly, Linux users need to be made aware of larger issues. Linux is not just about software-for-free, it is also about software-that-should-be-setting-you-free. This is not a cliche - if you dont believe in this, you are not much different from a freeloader. That is why these discussions(in moderation) do have a place here. P.S.: Sanjee, the unfortunate thing in all of this is that you and I may be seen as the Devil's Advocates for suggesting that laws should be respected. Nobody is saying that laws should not be respected - if that had been the case, the discussion here would have been about how to bypass the ban and spread the software as much as possible. Laws are not written in stone - they change over time. For too long have Indian commercial laws like copyright laws not been subject to public scrutiny. Copyright laws the world over is going through a spate of public debates - they are being rewritten and re-interpreted. It is time that Indian laws reflect this world trend. If private enterprise ran solely on the basis of - Dont-like-it-then-dont-buy-it, then life would be a living hell. If you own a hotel, could you just put up a sign saying Only people of so-called upper castes may enter ?. The answer is you cant. Because there is a limit to which private enterprise may dictate rules. These rules have to respect common social beliefs of equality and fairness. We are claiming here that our sense of equality is not being respected. When the sole benefit of iTunes is to let you buy songs that you want, and I am perfectly open to buying songs to it, am I not being discriminated when Apple refuses to create a Linux port of its application because of commercial(e.g. lack of resources, lack of market, comptetition to MacOS) reasons? Consider the fact that Apple and Linux have identical market shares, and the fact that the Open Source community is willing to create the application on its own. Consider the fact that there might already be dozens of windows based cracks for decrypting iTunes songs already available and that Apple is willing to take that risk and still maintain and push the Windows port of iTunes. But when it comes to Linux and other free OSes, it is not? How much of this is fair for the public good? Playfair is only the first step to having iTunes on Linux. Today I read on slashdot that a software has already been developed on Linux which lets you listen to samples of iTunes songs from their server. This is another step. There will be more on the way. Just remember, DRM(Windows/Apple) or no DRM (linux,*bsd) we are still philophically against acts of wilful copyright infringement. But we consider it our right to create Free software which brings us *legitimate* benefits. - Sandip -- Sandip Bhattacharya sandip (at) puroga.com Puroga Technologies Pvt. Ltd. Work: http://www.puroga.comHome: http://www.sandipb.net GPG: 51A4 6C57 4BC6 8C82 6A65 AE78 B1A1 2280 A129 0FF3 ___ ilugd mailinglist -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
Re: [ilugd] Re: [LIG] [OT] Sarovar, Fairplay, Apple
Sandip Bhattacharya wrote: Sigh...I would venture to guess this is what AMS had in mind while requesting [actually, demanding] that this thread be discontinued. The debate has already ventured into the territory of loud and fanatic shouting based on assumptions that-you-know-better-than-I-what society-needs and what-is-the-philosophical-reasoning-behind-Linux. I guess I am to blame as anyone else for that, by replying to a thread where almost no one seems to have done their basic research, including I. And it get's worse - I am going to reply to this mail. For anyone with legal/philosophical expertise, please forgive me - Mea about to Culpa and produce quasi-legal, quasi-philosophical ramblings. Varun Varma wrote: If anyone feels strongly about changing copyright and/or IP laws, please file PILs or petitions to your local political representatives or relevant judicial review panels. What is going on here is just the first step of such a thing. You cant just go ahead and file a petition without having a public debate over it. By deleting what followed below, you have taken the above quote out of context. I am not suggesting that a public debate should not happen - in fact I am contributing to one. Yes, this might not be the perfect forum for it - but again, let us not forget what this forum (ILUGD) is about - it is not just technology it is also the philosophy. Umm...I never said that it should not be discussed here. On the contrary, I quite believe that it should - why else would I post to this thread, *not* demanding that it be discontinued? What you have just said above, and in the next 3 paragraphs would have been better suited as a reply to AMS's mail and I am going to refrain from commenting on quite a few things which I don't agree with at all... To all those who say we stick to linux in all our talks here - well, you are right and wrong. Right, because this particular list has probably(some say mistakenly) given the impression that it is a strictly technical one. But wrong, if you say it should stay that way. I cant say this emphatically enough - ILUGD is not just about how to use Linux, it is also about how we sustain the techno-social environment in which Linux and the GNU movement came about in the first place. So subscribers of this list who are into Linux solely for technology or commercial benefits might sometime see discussions which might not bring direct technical or commercial benefits to them. The [EMAIL PROTECTED] list is unfortunately a catch-all for all discussions. There should ideally be a separate list for those interested in discussing freedom and other philosophical reasons on the line of LIG. But that might not be a good idea because: a. The traffic might not be good enough to merit a separate list. b. Most importantly, Linux users need to be made aware of larger issues. Linux is not just about software-for-free, it is also about software-that-should-be-setting-you-free. This is not a cliche - if you dont believe in this, you are not much different from a freeloader. That is why these discussions(in moderation) do have a place here. P.S.: Sanjee, the unfortunate thing in all of this is that you and I may be seen as the Devil's Advocates for suggesting that laws should be respected. Uhh...considering that 8 paragraphs follow my P.S., I think what exactly what I said in the P.S. is coming true...getting castigated for suggesting the legal procedure be followed. Just for fun, I am going to point out the logical fallacies committed in the reasoning below. Finding out exactly what they mean is left as an excercise to the reader... Nobody is saying that laws should not be respected - if that had been the case, the discussion here would have been about how to bypass the ban and spread the software as much as possible. [non causa pro causa] Laws are not written in stone - they change over time. Yes they do. But how? The point I am trying to make again and again is that there is a well established system for changing laws, and I am suggesting that be followed. For too long have Indian commercial laws like copyright laws not been subject to public scrutiny. Copyright laws the world over is going through a spate of public debates - they are being rewritten and re-interpreted. It is time that Indian laws reflect this world trend. [Ignoratio Elenti] The above statement has no bearing on the point at hand - a law has been broken, and that should not be supported. If private enterprise ran solely on the basis of - Dont-like-it-then-dont-buy-it, then life would be a living hell. If you own a hotel, could you just put up a sign saying Only people of so-called upper castes may enter ?. The answer is you cant. Because there is a limit to which private enterprise may dictate rules. These rules have to respect common social beliefs of equality and fairness. [non causa pro causa] Yes, I can't. Do you know why? Because the
Re: [ilugd] Re: [LIG] [OT] Sarovar, Fairplay, Apple
Varun, First of all let me apologize because my reply appeared to be solely on the basis of your statements - which was not my intention. I was not only replying to your mail but also earlier replies in the thread that you in turn had replied to. Note: After I read the rest of your mail properly I realized that you are quite mistaken about what has actually happened - please do read up the relevant stories before jumping in. Varun Varma wrote: Sigh...I would venture to guess this is what AMS had in mind while requesting [actually, demanding] that this thread be discontinued. The debate has already ventured into the territory of loud and fanatic shouting based on assumptions that-you-know-better-than-I-what society-needs and what-is-the-philosophical-reasoning-behind-Linux. Your generalization of the positions of people with differing views is indeed heartening, and sends really positive signals about your attitude towards others in the thread. If anyone feels strongly about changing copyright and/or IP laws, please file PILs or petitions to your local political representatives or relevant judicial review panels. What is going on here is just the first step of such a thing. You cant just go ahead and file a petition without having a public debate over it. By deleting what followed below, you have taken the above quote out of context. I am not suggesting that a public debate should not happen - in fact I am contributing to one. I must apologize then. Your statement above did imply that concerned persons should stop talking here and go somewhere else following well-established methods like PILs for changing laws. BTW, there was not too much to delete below, and I aplogize if you found it relevant - I sure didnt. What you have just said above, and in the next 3 paragraphs would have been better suited as a reply to AMS's mail and I am going to refrain You are right. They were. And I apologize if you took them personally like the rest. Laws are not written in stone - they change over time. Yes they do. But how? The point I am trying to make again and again is that there is a well established system for changing laws, and I am suggesting that be followed. And pray what system is that? Are you aware of the differences between formal and informal public debate that generally precedes such formal well-established systems of changing laws? For too long have Indian commercial laws like copyright laws not been subject to public scrutiny. Copyright laws the world over is going through a spate of public debates - they are being rewritten and re-interpreted. It is time that Indian laws reflect this world trend. [Ignoratio Elenti] [snipping mindless latin chatter] The above statement has no bearing on the point at hand - a law has been broken, and that should not be supported. There in lies your problem - you simply are not in a mood to listen or read to what others are even talking about in this thread. Which law has been broken? The controversy is about a commercial entity asking that a website be taken down because there is a *possibility* that the work on display there can be used for copyright infringement? There is a difference between DMCA based allegations and actual copyright violations. DMCA based allegations are made against people developing and disseminating tools that can potentially be used to break security systems protecting copyrighted material. In US, DMCA cases had been filed against skylarov, 2600, and a few others. These laws are not valid in India. Therefore instead Apple and its lawyers are citing possible Indian Copyright Law infringements in Indian that *may* happen if people use this software. They have no actual infringement cases to cite. Do you understand the significance now? This is a legal threat that can very well be fought in court(and in US these cases have even been won by the defendent) [Note to the technically sensitive reader: Yes, I know this is not a law - for that I really should be quoting from the Indian Penal Code where this Article of the constitution get's mapped to a law. You really think I am going to spend that much time on research?] :) Thanks for sparing us from all that in this grand act of condescention. Please understand that India, like any other democracy in the world is a republic. That means that the voice of majority is only heard till the selection of representatives, in whom you vest your power to take decisions on your behalf. Even if the decision is not what you like. And there are remedies to correct such decisions, which include: - Changing representation - Judicial procedure And if all else fails, - Revolt/Revolution The problem is that people straightaway jump to the third, without trying out the first two. I agree. But you are missing out an important step before the first two - public dissemination of the facts involved and public debates. I am stressing this on and on.
Re: [ilugd] Re: [LIG] [OT] Sarovar, Fairplay, Apple
Viksit Gaur wrote: Hmm.. Just some thoughts.. Suppose my company (i dont work for any, btw :) has spent a million bucks in developing and promoting a technology, would I like it if someone was to develop something which circumvents my security measures and possibly eat into or even trivialize my profits? Suppose you have a million bucks to spend you might want to put that money into developing a security scheme which is not so trival to break. Plus The hacker is doing you a favor by breaking your scheme and showing possible flaws in your software, If as a company you decide to look at it as a flaw. As the management in charge of the company, I might *personally* appreciate original work being done by hackers and the community in general, but officially? Arent they just a pain which i'd want to counter ASAP? I think If I pay for something I should be allow to use It on a platform of my choice. These laws are like, I will sell you 2 apples (excuse the pun ;) but you can only peel them with Dingo(TM) peelers and then eat. I will sue you if you try to eat 'em raw or use Pingo peelers to peel them. -- It is practically impossible to teach good programming style to students that have had prior exposure to BASIC: as potential programmers they are mentally mutilated beyond hope of regeneration. ___ ilugd mailinglist -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
Re: [ilugd] Re: [LIG] [OT] Sarovar, Fairplay, Apple
I think If I pay for something I should be allow to use It on a platform of my choice. These laws are like, I will sell you 2 apples (excuse the pun ;) but you can only peel them with Dingo(TM) peelers and then eat. I will sue you if you try to eat 'em raw or use Pingo peelers to peel them. What if this apple was Copied[cloned]... (can it really be done ?) and peeled with Pingo, ro Gingo, or Mingo ? Do u like it ? or the Company will like it ? If i was the Mgmt guy who sold u the apple... I will try to buy Gingo, Mingo and all Peelers.If i cantsure i sue them[Still i cant i will Supari them]. I again repeat the words which i hv said earlier in this listBusiness is War and i will use all means to win in it, Fair or unfair...[This is why i never own a business :)] ___ ilugd mailinglist -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
Re: [ilugd] Re: [LIG] [OT] Sarovar, Fairplay, Apple
Hmm.. Just some thoughts.. I'm totally with the Freedom to create and distribute tag. But, what if you think from the corporate viewpoint? Suppose my company (i dont work for any, btw :) has spent a million bucks in developing and promoting a technology, would I like it if someone was to develop something which circumvents my security measures and possibly eat into or even trivialize my profits? As the management in charge of the company, I might *personally* appreciate original work being done by hackers and the community in general, but officially? Arent they just a pain which i'd want to counter ASAP? -- vik = -- Viksit Gaur http://www.viksit.com me[at]viksit.com viksit[at]linux-delhi[dot]org 'Not all who wander are lost.' - J.R.R. Tolkien, The Fellowship of the Ring __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - File online by April 15th http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html ___ ilugd mailinglist -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
Re: [ilugd] Re: [LIG] [OT] Sarovar, Fairplay, Apple
Viksit Gaur wrote: Suppose my company (i dont work for any, btw :) has spent a million bucks in developing and promoting a technology, would I like it if someone was to develop something which circumvents my security measures and possibly eat into or even trivialize my profits? This is actually a gray area - while Free Software is about *creating* gray area and not stealing ideas from others, some times it becomes imperative that a proprietary technology is made available to the public(through a Free software ofcourse) when the technology becomes critical for the masses - e.g. making software which reads MSOffice files(Abiword,OOo), or making software which interoperates with MS machines in a file sharing network(Samba). 1. But the general idea of problems of this nature is - that if you dont like the policies of the company who creates this technology in the first place - dont buy it. Nobody is forcing you to do so! 2. On the other hand, people have strong opinions on the very terms under which this technology is given and find it unfairly restrictive. It is a gray area, and a persons opinion varies according to where he prefers drawing a line between these two arguments. - Sandip -- Sandip Bhattacharya sandip (at) puroga.com Puroga Technologies Pvt. Ltd. Work: http://www.puroga.comHome: http://www.sandipb.net GPG: 51A4 6C57 4BC6 8C82 6A65 AE78 B1A1 2280 A129 0FF3 -- Sandip Bhattacharya sandip (at) puroga.com Puroga Technologies Pvt. Ltd. Work: http://www.puroga.comHome: http://www.sandipb.net GPG: 51A4 6C57 4BC6 8C82 6A65 AE78 B1A1 2280 A129 0FF3 ___ ilugd mailinglist -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
Re: [ilugd] Re: [LIG] [OT] Sarovar, Fairplay, Apple
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Viksit == Viksit Gaur [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Viksit Hmm.. Just some thoughts.. Viksit I'm totally with the Freedom to create and distribute Viksit tag. But, what if you think from the corporate viewpoint? Viksit Suppose my company (i dont work for any, btw :) has spent Viksit a million bucks in developing and promoting a technology, Viksit would I like it if someone was to develop something which Viksit circumvents my security measures and possibly eat into or Viksit even trivialize my profits? You may not like it but you'd have to live with it. Just as you have the right to embed security into your software, others have the right to study, hack and bypass that security. I think you're missing the important point here -- stealing music is illegal, but providing tools that MAY be used to steal music isn't. If we support the banning of tools that may possibly be used for illegal purposes we'll have to ban just about everything -- starting with computers, Winduhs, Linux, gdb, nmap, C compilers, Perl, netstat, ping, mutt, Emacs, EVERYTHING! Viksit As the management in charge of the company, I might Viksit *personally* appreciate original work being done by Viksit hackers and the community in general, but officially? Viksit Arent they just a pain which i'd want to counter ASAP? No. If you want to protect your music don't protect the people who write software -- prosecute those who use the software to perform illegal acts. Remember -- it's not the tool that is illegal, it's the use to which it is put by an individual that is or is not. Regards, - -- Raju - -- Raj Mathur[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://kandalaya.org/ GPG: 78D4 FC67 367F 40E2 0DD5 0FEF C968 D0EF CC68 D17F It is the mind that moves -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Processed by Mailcrypt 3.5.8 http://mailcrypt.sourceforge.net/ iD8DBQFAgNN7yWjQ78xo0X8RAoQeAJ9UKaujdXJvSKoXvJ+og0BtV8euFACdHTeU WTDYMeib523PgB4M/rd0dV8= =ydUJ -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ ilugd mailinglist -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
Re: [ilugd] Re: [LIG] [OT] Sarovar, Fairplay, Apple
This is actually a gray area - while Free Software is about *creating* gray area and not stealing ideas from others, some times it becomes imperative that a proprietary technology is made available to the public(through a Free software ofcourse) when the technology becomes critical for the masses - e.g. making software which reads MSOffice files(Abiword,OOo), or making software which interoperates with MS machines in a file sharing network(Samba). Well, as for this argument, the companies in question wouldnt go against such programs because the End Result is the propogation of their own technology - be it Word files or Win interoperability. But in terms of Apple's itunes or other such programs, I'm sure the arguments dont hold. 1. But the general idea of problems of this nature is - that if you dont like the policies of the company who creates this technology in the first place - dont buy it. Nobody is forcing you to do so! Exactly. But I'm *not* buying it. I'm creating an alternative for myself and thousands of others, to get the product yet not paying for it. Maybe this is where the creation of Gray areas comes in.. 2. On the other hand, people have strong opinions on the very terms under which this technology is given and find it unfairly restrictive. But can you blame a company from trying to make profits by selling a service - Apple hasnt exactly put in unfair trade practices or something, which might lead to ideological differences? -- vik = -- Viksit Gaur http://www.viksit.com me[at]viksit.com viksit[at]linux-delhi[dot]org 'Not all who wander are lost.' - J.R.R. Tolkien, The Fellowship of the Ring __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - File online by April 15th http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html ___ ilugd mailinglist -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
Re: [ilugd] Re: [LIG] [OT] Sarovar, Fairplay, Apple
Hey! No. If you want to protect your music don't protect the people who write software -- prosecute those who use the software to perform illegal acts. True. Brings to mind the RIAA suing that 12 year old girl though! Brianna Something, from NYC. Remember -- it's not the tool that is illegal, it's the use to which it is put by an individual that is or is not. Well put. -- vik = -- Viksit Gaur http://www.viksit.com me[at]viksit.com viksit[at]linux-delhi[dot]org 'Not all who wander are lost.' - J.R.R. Tolkien, The Fellowship of the Ring __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - File online by April 15th http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html ___ ilugd mailinglist -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
Re: [ilugd] Re: [LIG] [OT] Sarovar, Fairplay, Apple
Raj Mathur wrote: Remember -- it's not the tool that is illegal, it's the use to which it is put by an individual that is or is not. I agree. This is probably the assumption under which guns are allowed in USA. But what about a country like ours, where people are not allowed (easily) to keep guns because they have a potential of hurting others? - Sandip -- Sandip Bhattacharya sandip (at) puroga.com Puroga Technologies Pvt. Ltd. Work: http://www.puroga.comHome: http://www.sandipb.net GPG: 51A4 6C57 4BC6 8C82 6A65 AE78 B1A1 2280 A129 0FF3 ___ ilugd mailinglist -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
Re: [ilugd] Re: [LIG] [OT] Sarovar, Fairplay, Apple
I agree. This is probably the assumption under which guns are allowed in USA. But what about a country like ours, where people are not allowed (easily) to keep guns because they have a potential of hurting others? The reasons are probably political, not to mention archaic laws and the absence of good lawmakers (who're actually supported in parliament!). I mean, legalizing guns would probably be better, because most are available illegally, and thus untraceable after a situation. But, this opens up a totally new debate, one which has raged the US for eons : Gun law regulations. -- vik = -- Viksit Gaur http://www.viksit.com me[at]viksit.com viksit[at]linux-delhi[dot]org 'Not all who wander are lost.' - J.R.R. Tolkien, The Fellowship of the Ring __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - File online by April 15th http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html ___ ilugd mailinglist -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
Re: [ilugd] Re: [LIG] [OT] Sarovar, Fairplay, Apple
On Saturday, April 17, 2004 2:49 PM [GMT+0800=SGT], Raj Mathur [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You may not like it but you'd have to live with it. Just as you have the right to embed security into your software, others have the right to study, hack and bypass that security. Rights are defined by law, and law may make such study illegal. There are no innate rights in the Indian Constitution[1]. Rights which are granted today may be removed tomorrow[2]. I think you're missing the important point here -- stealing music is illegal, but providing tools that MAY be used to steal music isn't. If we support the banning of tools that may possibly be used for illegal purposes we'll have to ban just about everything -- starting with computers, Winduhs, Linux, gdb, nmap, C compilers, Perl, netstat, ping, mutt, Emacs, EVERYTHING! Remember -- it's not the tool that is illegal, it's the use to which it is put by an individual that is or is not. True, in general. However, tools may be banned, even if the purpose that they may be used for is not clear, or proven. Examples include the ban of knifes with blades longer than 6 inches[3], the transport of cultures for communicable diseases, etc. Raju, I agree with you fully, and we are in good company, Hume, Franklin, Mills, et al. However, the law is what the law says it is, not what is right, or reasonable. == [1] The US Declaration of Independance states that some rights are inalienable, and among these are the rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. However, the Declaration has no legal value, the Constitution does, and that grants rights, not recognizes their existance. [2] cf The right to Property. This was a Fundumental Right under the 1950 Constitution. Look for Section Article 19 (f). Look carefully. Then look at the 44th Amendment. Also, look for Article 31, Right to Property. [3] Being in possesion of a knife with blade longer than 6 inches is not in itself illegal, but the Court will accept that as evidence adducing against you. Inaccurately but pithily, you are guilty unless you can prove yourself innocent. Similar laws exist about the carrying of lock picks. -- Sanjeev ___ ilugd mailinglist -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
Re: [ilugd] Re: [LIG] [OT] Sarovar, Fairplay, Apple
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hi Ghane, Ghane == Sanjeev Gupta Sanjeev writes: Ghane On Saturday, April 17, 2004 2:49 PM [GMT+0800=SGT], Raj Ghane Mathur [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You may not like it but you'd have to live with it. Just as you have the right to embed security into your software, others have the right to study, hack and bypass that security. Ghane Rights are defined by law, and law may make such study Ghane illegal. There are no innate rights in the Indian Ghane Constitution[1]. Rights which are granted today may be Ghane removed tomorrow[2]. Agreed. I think you're missing the important point here -- stealing music is illegal, but providing tools that MAY be used to steal music isn't. If we support the banning of tools that may possibly be used for illegal purposes we'll have to ban just about everything -- starting with computers, Winduhs, Linux, gdb, nmap, C compilers, Perl, netstat, ping, mutt, Emacs, EVERYTHING! Remember -- it's not the tool that is illegal, it's the use to which it is put by an individual that is or is not. Ghane True, in general. However, tools may be banned, even if Ghane the purpose that they may be used for is not clear, or Ghane proven. Examples include the ban of knifes with blades Ghane longer than 6 inches[3], the transport of cultures for Ghane communicable diseases, etc. Ghane Raju, I agree with you fully, and we are in good company, Ghane Hume, Franklin, Mills, et al. However, the law is what the Ghane law says it is, not what is right, or reasonable. Also agreed. However in this case the right to innovate, even if it hurts a business, has not been assigned or declined. Apple is assuming that they do have the right to stop development and propagation of a program that may hurt their business. I believe that we should fight that assumption. If we do fight, the outcome is unclear. The free software community, the hacker community, all of us may lose. However it's not on my agenda to lie back and accept the inevitable, and inevitable it certainly shall be if we don't question the whole basis of Apple's legality in sending the notice. Regards, - -- Raju Ghane [snip] - -- Raj Mathur[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://kandalaya.org/ GPG: 78D4 FC67 367F 40E2 0DD5 0FEF C968 D0EF CC68 D17F It is the mind that moves -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Processed by Mailcrypt 3.5.8 http://mailcrypt.sourceforge.net/ iD8DBQFAgOCryWjQ78xo0X8RAgYcAKCLmTGpcTPxeQsHzTERawxE+5/NtwCgjh7c Fx8PVEvC8jRWmafZFTNyK+w= =s/qU -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ ilugd mailinglist -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
Re: [ilugd] Re: [LIG] [OT] Sarovar, Fairplay, Apple
On Sat, 2004-04-17 at 09:18, Raj Mathur wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 sdg == Sayamindu Dasgupta [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: sdg Hey, Looks like Apple has unleashed it's lawyers upon sdg sarovar.org for hosting fairplay. sdg http://sarovar.org/forum/forum.php?forum_id=474 No, I don't agree with the project being taken down. Enough arm-twisting by corporates who want to protect their ``Intellectual Property'' by killing innovation and the individual hacker (not [SNIP] Maybe you can raise our collective voice if you take a brief control of podium tomorrow? -- Sudev Barar Learning Linux ___ ilugd mailinglist -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
Re: [ilugd] Re: [LIG] [OT] Sarovar, Fairplay, Apple
Raj Mathur wrote: sdg I don't seem to understand what Apple really wants - on one sdg hand it leaves open gaping holes in its DRM scheme[1] - and Gaping holes? Apple should be credited with giving the least restricted DRM scheme possible for providing content! They are probably the most permissive of all online music players. Please dont forget that the main problem is not Apple but the Music Industry which will kill this (ITunes) project if they see their music is not being protected adequately. Not that I am trying to oppose this project - I agree that this project is essential for the use of fair use. If I buy music - I should own it and should have the right to use it in any way for my personal use. Even though I think judges will take a dim view of our idea of fair use. Conventional market logic (which judges rely on for these cases) says that if you dont agree with Apple's terms - go buy your own music from the music shops. But my biggest grouse with ITunes is that there is no Linux client - maybe that is a good point to support projects like Fairplay? That sure is mine. - Sandip -- Sandip Bhattacharya sandip (at) puroga.com Puroga Technologies Pvt. Ltd. Work: http://www.puroga.comHome: http://www.sandipb.net GPG: 51A4 6C57 4BC6 8C82 6A65 AE78 B1A1 2280 A129 0FF3 ___ ilugd mailinglist -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
