KR> Belly board

[Jeff Scott]

Oscar did the calculations for the FLAPS on my KR with full flaps deployed to 
37?, which is likely a little more area than most belly boards, but similar in 
loads.  The load calculation gave me a safe speed for full flaps of 100 mph IAS 
with a 10% gust load factor.  I have had partial flaps out at much higher 
speeds, but I always keep in mind that the calculation for full deployment was 
for 100 mph, so marked the ASI and fly the plane accordingly.  I don't think 
the limiting factor was the flap mounts so much as the strength of the flap 
around where the actuator arm mounts to the flaps.  I ended up using the flap 
actuator sold by Vans for an RV.  It is larger and heavier than what I needed, 
but at the time that I did this installation the cheap Chinese electronics 
weren't so readily available to us and I was running into a lot of difficulties 
trying to procure the actuator I wanted.

FWIW, both my ailerons and flaps are mounted with countersunk #8 machine screws 
into self locking nutplates floxed to the back side of the false spar.  One 
thing that I almost always do with self locking nutplates is to run a tap 
through them before installation.  It reduces the clamping action of the 
nutplate by rounding the hole a bit, but they will still lock on well enough 
without stripping the threads if one uses stainless hardware.  

FWIW, I flew my KR to both AZ and TX for the $50 breakfasts over Christmas 
break.  My KR is over 1100 hrs flight time now.

-Jeff Scott
Los Alamos, NM?



Paul (Visk)- I changed the subject line to be more relevant. You asked about 
the forces on the deployed belly board at 130MPH. I don't recall what the 
calculations were, but when Jeff Scott was converting his belly board actuator 
a few years ago, we ran some numbers on the forces required to push the board 
out against the oncoming air. Maybe Jeff still remembers-? Maybe he has his 
board placarded for maximum deployment speed? His installation is not marginal. 
As I recall, he installed an actuator that has more than adequate power to 
deploy the board, but what you're asking about are the actual forces and maybe 
Jeff still has those and will share them.

Oscar Zuniga
Medford, OR

KR> Belly board

[Paul VISK]

Guys with speed brakes. Do you always do a full deployment of your brake or do 
partial deployment as needed? ?I have internal limit switches in my actuator. 
So all I need is a on on switch. ?Or if I want to stop in the middle. ?I would 
need a on off on. This would be on my ?stick grip.?

Paul Visk?Belleville Il hello618-406-4705




Oscar did the calculations for the FLAPS on my KR with full flaps deployed to 
37?, which is likely a little more area than most belly boards, but similar in 
loads.? The load calculation gave me a safe speed for full flaps of 100 mph IAS 
with a 10% gust load factor.? I have had partial flaps out at much higher 
speeds, but I always keep in mind that the calculation for full deployment was 
for 100 mph, so marked the ASI and fly the plane accordingly.? I don't think 
the limiting factor was the flap mounts so much as the strength of the flap 
around where the actuator arm mounts to the flaps.? I ended up using the flap 
actuator sold by Vans for an RV.? It is larger and heavier than what I needed, 
but at the time that I did this installation the cheap Chinese electronics 
weren't so readily available to us and I was running into a lot of difficulties 
trying to procure the actuator I wanted.

FWIW, both my ailerons and flaps are mounted with countersunk #8 machine screws 
into self locking nutplates floxed to the back side of the false spar.? One 
thing that I almost always do with self locking nutplates is to run a tap 
through them before?

KR> Belly board

[Jeff Scott]

Joe,

I think it can be made to work with the extra drag you are installing, but 
there are a couple of issues with your plan.  

#1), Your KR can land much slower than 70 mph.  You should be able to touch 
down around 55 mph if you hit your approaches right.  That's an approximate 
speed because it depends a lot on which wing you have, flaps, weight, etc.  
With flaps and RAF 48 Diehl wings, I stall at 52 mph.  Your KR can be build to 
land slower than mine.

#2) Hard braking at high speed isn't all that great on my KR.  I know if I 
touch down a bit hot and want to brake hard, I'll get quite a bit of chatter 
from the glass gear flexing back.  I simply can't brake hard until I get slowed 
down a bit.  I've got good Cleveland brakes in excellent condition.  It's the 
gear legs that flex a bit, but my gear legs are longer than others, so that 
"may" be the root of the high speed chatter.  

#3) Before I put flaps on my KR, I landed at a short runway where I had to drop 
over a tall tree at the end of the runway.  I picked up too much speed dropping 
in over the tree, so forced the plane on the runway a bit fast and figured I'd 
brake hard to make the end of the runway.  I came very close to sailing off the 
end of the runway.  Even the good Cleveland disc brakes were fading pretty 
badly by the end of the runway.  This experience convinced me to add flaps to 
my KR.  You've already addressed this issue, but the point is that even the 
best 5:00x5 brakes will fade as they get hot.  You may want to consider going 
to a larger 6:00x6 brake with low profile tires.  Larry Flesner had his KR 
configured that way for a few years.

#4) You don't say whether this is grass or really smooth, but braking action 
isn't very good on grass, and even less so with every little bump in the grass. 
 The smaller the tires, the less traction you're going to have on the grass.

Again, I think it can be done, but there are a few issues to be worked out and 
a lot of practice to get there.

-Jeff Scott
Los Alamos, NM


> I feel that I should provide full disclosure in my response to your question. 
> I fly out of a 1200 foot grass strip. I have no problem taking off and 
> landing. I have not flown out of my airfield with my KR2 yet but I have put a 
> lot of thought into the situation and I believe that the KR2 can be safely 
> flown out of a 1200 foot strip.?
> 
> Touchdown should be at about 70 mph. I plan to have some high quality 
> hydraulic disc brakes. Touch down at the edge of the field and begin braking. 
> I have a tail dragger so the fuselage will remain level until the speed is 
> low enough to drop the tail. A bellyboard or airbrakes could be helpful.?
> 
> I am very interested in how things work for you. ?Please keep me informed. 
> ?I'm at least a few months out before I am ready for taxi testing.?
> 
> Joe
> Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone
> 
>  Original message From: Pierre via KRnet 
>  Date:02
> 
> 
> 
> I installed both flaps (20" X 12" inboard) as well as a belly board
> (clearance 2" hanging 90 degrees down). The idea is to use flaps on approach
> and use speed brake after touchdown. I will be testing on a 3,000 feet
> strip, but my personal strip is only 1,200 feet, so want to see if I can
> land within the 1,200 feet limit employing both systems in the sequence
> described above.
> 
> 
> 
> Has anyone tested the amount of speed loss per 10 degree implementation of
> the belly board in straight and level flight? For example a 10 degree
> deployment reduce speed by 10 knots at 1,700 rpm. Also any advise or
> comments wellcome, both possitive and negative.
> 
> 
> 
> The plane is now extremely close to finally testing and hopefully flightJ
> 
> 
> 
> Take care!
> 
> Pierre
> 
> KR2S (98% compelted)
> 
> Wittman Tailwind (80% completed)
> 
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KR> Belly board

[bjoenunley]

I feel that I should provide full disclosure in my response to your question. I 
fly out of a 1200 foot grass strip. I have no problem taking off and landing. I 
have not flown out of my airfield with my KR2 yet but I have put a lot of 
thought into the situation and I believe that the KR2 can be safely flown out 
of a 1200 foot strip.?

Touchdown should be at about 70 mph. I plan to have some high quality hydraulic 
disc brakes. Touch down at the edge of the field and begin braking. I have a 
tail dragger so the fuselage will remain level until the speed is low enough to 
drop the tail. A bellyboard or airbrakes could be helpful.?

I am very interested in how things work for you. ?Please keep me informed. ?I'm 
at least a few months out before I am ready for taxi testing.?

Joe
Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone

 Original message From: Pierre via KRnet  Date:02/12/2015  2:36 AM  (GMT-06:00) 
To: KRnet  Subject: KR> Belly 
board 
Hi,



I installed both flaps (20" X 12" inboard) as well as a belly board
(clearance 2" hanging 90 degrees down). The idea is to use flaps on approach
and use speed brake after touchdown. I will be testing on a 3,000 feet
strip, but my personal strip is only 1,200 feet, so want to see if I can
land within the 1,200 feet limit employing both systems in the sequence
described above.



Has anyone tested the amount of speed loss per 10 degree implementation of
the belly board in straight and level flight? For example a 10 degree
deployment reduce speed by 10 knots at 1,700 rpm. Also any advise or
comments wellcome, both possitive and negative.



The plane is now extremely close to finally testing and hopefully flightJ



Take care!

Pierre

KR2S (98% compelted)

Wittman Tailwind (80% completed)

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KR> Belly Board

[laser147 at juno.com]

Pierre said, 

"I installed both flaps (20" X 12" inboard) as well as a belly board
(clearance 2" hanging 90 degrees down). The idea is to use flaps on
approach and use speed brake after touchdown.  I will be testing on a
3,000 feet strip, but my personal strip is only 1,200 feet"

I think you are overthinking things here.  That's great that you have
both flaps and bellyboard.  That allows you to stay high enough on
approach that if you lose the engine you can still make the runway.  So .
. . stay high, get slowed way down, deploy all your drag devices so you
can make a nice steep final and touch down just above stall.  You may
still have to do some slipping, although a board hanging down 90 degrees
should probably do the job.  


Old School Yearbook Pics
View Class Yearbooks Online Free. Search by School & Year. Look Now!
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/54dcf864e77d78632d5est04vuc

KR> Belly board

[Pierre]

Hi,



I installed both flaps (20" X 12" inboard) as well as a belly board
(clearance 2" hanging 90 degrees down). The idea is to use flaps on approach
and use speed brake after touchdown. I will be testing on a 3,000 feet
strip, but my personal strip is only 1,200 feet, so want to see if I can
land within the 1,200 feet limit employing both systems in the sequence
described above.



Has anyone tested the amount of speed loss per 10 degree implementation of
the belly board in straight and level flight? For example a 10 degree
deployment reduce speed by 10 knots at 1,700 rpm. Also any advise or
comments wellcome, both possitive and negative.



The plane is now extremely close to finally testing and hopefully flightJ



Take care!

Pierre

KR2S (98% compelted)

Wittman Tailwind (80% completed)

KR> Belly board actuators

[Flesner]

>  taking about 5 seconds to retract, which is about as slow as I'd 
> care for them to retract.
>Mark Langford
+

Mark's 5 seconds is pretty close. My belly board takes about 6 
seconds to extend / retract from maximum deflection of 90 
degrees.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cgdgxVgPNAk You can time 
the retract at the end of the video.  I'm able to go around with the 
board extended but climb rate and acceleration are limited, even with 
the 0-200 at full throttle.  As for retracting on go around, the last 
couple of seconds are a non issue as the effects of the board 
decrease as the seconds count down.  If the last two or three seconds 
of retract makes a difference in life or death you've made too many 
mistakes leading to that point to matter, IMHO

Larry Flesner  

KR> Belly board actuators

[Mark Langford]

Chris Prata wrote:

 >> Why not just use a manual lever and linkage? That way you could move 
it as fast or slow as u want.<<

It's possible, but real estate and the lack of three hands was my logic. 
  If you put it on the floor where you can reach it with tight shoulder 
belts, you've got to dodge the seat, aileron cables, and will probably 
sacrifice at least three inches for your fist to reach and operate the 
handle...which translates directly into three wasted inches in the 
cockpit, or a wider airplane.   And as folks with the original retract 
gear discovered, having to pull or push a lever while the other hand is 
on the control stick can lead to some "pilot induced oscillations".

Couple that with a go-around or recovering from a touchdown that's gone 
bad.  In that case you need to go full throttle, pull the flaps up 
slooowly, kill carb heat, and "fly the plane".  With electric flaps I 
flip a switch after full throttle and the flaps take care of themselves 
while I do more important things, taking about 5 seconds to retract, 
which is about as slow as I'd care for them to retract.

Mark Langford
ML at N56ML.com
http://www.n56ml.com

KR> Belly board actuators

[Chris Prata]

Why not just use a manual lever and linkage? That way you could move it as fast 
or slow as u want.

KR> Belly board actuators

[Thomas Horch]

If you go to Surplus Center.com click on Electric than on Linear Actuators you 
will find a lot of them at a very reasonable price?? Tom 

 On Monday, February 9, 2015 11:24 AM, Paul-Visk .? ?via KRnet  wrote:


 I found this 6" actuator at Everestpart Supplies. 
They also have 4" and 12".? I think from what I've read 6" should be ok. Any 
advise?

http://www.everestpartssupplies.com/products/new-heavy-duty-linear-actuator-6-inch-stroke-225-pound-max-lift-dc-12v-12-volt
 

Paul Visk
Belleville Il.
618-406-4705
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KR> Belly board actuators

[Dan Prichard]

My actuator is out of a Honda. Right window 1998. Takes about 3 seconds to 
fully extend and retract. It is powerful to push the airplane up if it hits 
something on the floor. Trust me. Go to YouTube and search N257DP and you can 
see how it's mounted. 
Oh, it cost $30 at the auto wrecker. 

Dan Prichard
Portland Oregon 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Feb 9, 2015, at 10:26 AM, Mark Jones via KRnet  
> wrote:
> 
> Excellent info Bill. Thanks for letting everyone know.
> 
> Mark Jones (N886MJ)
> Stevens Point, WI
> E-mail: flykr2s at charter.net
> Web: www.flykr2s.com
> 
> 
> 
> - Original Message - From: "Bill Wood via KRnet"  list.krnet.org>
> To: 
> Sent: Monday, February 09, 2015 12:24 PM
> Subject: KR> Belly board actuators
> 
> 
>> I have been using this type of actuator in industry for years.
>> 
>> The FA35 series I never had any luck with. They use plastic gearing and if 
>> you over torque them, you will take out the main gear.
>> 
>> I have been using the Duff Norton LT-255 series now for 5 or 6 years. I have 
>> about 150 units in use. Never had one problem.
>> 
>> They run about $125 retail.
>> 
>> Just my $0.02 worth
>> 
>> 
>> Bill Wood
>> Technical Consultant/R (EXT-262)
>> Guspro (Ice King)
>> Guspro Inc., Chatham, ON
>> PH: 1-888-648-7776 / FX: 1-800-667-8742
> 
> 
> 
> ___
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> please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
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KR> Belly board actuators

[ppaulvsk at aol.com]

Joe,
That's a good point. I remembered Larry video for his belly borad and 
remembered how fast it reploed  







-Original Message-
From: bjoenunley via KRnet 
To: Paul-Visk via KRnet 
Sent: Mon, Feb 9, 2015 11:20 am
Subject: Re: KR> Belly board actuators


At an actuation rate of 12mm or .472 inches per second it will take 
approximately 12 seconds for the belly board to fully extend. 

Is that fast enough?

Joe


Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone

 Original message From: Paul-Visk via KRnet 
 Date:02/09/2015  10:24 AM  (GMT-06:00) 
To: krnet at list.krnet.org,PPaulVsk at aol.com Subject: 
KR> Belly board actuators 
I found this 6" actuator at Everestpart Supplies. 
They also have 4" and 12".  I think from what I've read 6" should be ok. Any 
advise?

http://www.everestpartssupplies.com/products/new-heavy-duty-linear-actuator-6-inch-stroke-225-pound-max-lift-dc-12v-12-volt
 

Paul Visk
Belleville Il.
618-406-4705
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KR> Belly board actuators

[Mark Jones]

Excellent info Bill. Thanks for letting everyone know.

Mark Jones (N886MJ)
Stevens Point, WI
E-mail: flykr2s at charter.net
Web: www.flykr2s.com



- Original Message - 
From: "Bill Wood via KRnet" 
To: 
Sent: Monday, February 09, 2015 12:24 PM
Subject: KR> Belly board actuators


>I have been using this type of actuator in industry for years.
>
> The FA35 series I never had any luck with. They use plastic gearing and if 
> you over torque them, you will take out the main gear.
>
> I have been using the Duff Norton LT-255 series now for 5 or 6 years. I 
> have about 150 units in use. Never had one problem.
>
> They run about $125 retail.
>
> Just my $0.02 worth
>
>
> Bill Wood
> Technical Consultant/R (EXT-262)
> Guspro (Ice King)
> Guspro Inc., Chatham, ON
> PH: 1-888-648-7776 / FX: 1-800-667-8742
>

KR> Belly board actuators

[bjoenunley]

At an actuation rate of 12mm or .472 inches per second it will take 
approximately 12 seconds for the belly board to fully extend.?

Is that fast enough?

Joe


Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone

 Original message From: Paul-Visk via KRnet 
 Date:02/09/2015  10:24 AM  (GMT-06:00) 
To: krnet at list.krnet.org,PPaulVsk at aol.com Subject: 
KR> Belly board actuators 
I found this 6" actuator at Everestpart Supplies. 
They also have 4" and 12".  I think from what I've read 6" should be ok. Any 
advise?

http://www.everestpartssupplies.com/products/new-heavy-duty-linear-actuator-6-inch-stroke-225-pound-max-lift-dc-12v-12-volt
 

Paul Visk
Belleville Il.
618-406-4705
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KR> Belly board

[Adam Tippin]

the only thing i could see as a variable, would be the wind traveling Up the 
windshield and possible skipping over some of the board.
if the board is too short, you won?t have any results. Too tall may rip it off 
the roof.
I can?t wait to hear the results.

> On Dec 31, 2014, at 1:29 AM, Adam Tippin  wrote:
> 
> it would seem at least sufficient for our application.
> Is there a way to check resistance while the board with holes is in the 
> stowed position?
> 
> 
>> On Dec 30, 2014, at 7:17 PM, bjoenunley via KRnet > > wrote:
>> 
>> Belly board holes or no holes;
>> 
>> I have considered making a belly board with holes and one without holes. 
>> Attaching one at a time to a board where I can attach a scale.  I would then 
>> attach the system to the roof of my truck that I would drive down an unused 
>> road. I would measure the air resistance at varying speeds. 
>> 
>> Do you believe that this would accurately correlate to flight?
>> 
>> Joe 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
> 

KR> Belly board

[Adam Tippin]

it would seem at least sufficient for our application.
Is there a way to check resistance while the board with holes is in the stowed 
position?


> On Dec 30, 2014, at 7:17 PM, bjoenunley via KRnet  
> wrote:
> 
> Belly board holes or no holes;
> 
> I have considered making a belly board with holes and one without holes. 
> Attaching one at a time to a board where I can attach a scale.  I would then 
> attach the system to the roof of my truck that I would drive down an unused 
> road. I would measure the air resistance at varying speeds. 
> 
> Do you believe that this would accurately correlate to flight?
> 
> Joe 
> 
> 
> 
> 

KR> Belly board

[Nerobro]

It's a valid test.  But "better" testing would be a few vacuum (they also
read a little bit of pressure) set up at strategic locations around the
test section.

While the holes might have more drag.. I bet the flat board causes a bigger
"high pressure" zone.

On Wed, Dec 31, 2014 at 12:33 AM, Adam Tippin via KRnet <
krnet at list.krnet.org> wrote:

> the only thing i could see as a variable, would be the wind traveling Up
> the windshield and possible skipping over some of the board.
> if the board is too short, you won?t have any results. Too tall may rip it
> off the roof.
> I can?t wait to hear the results.
>
> > On Dec 31, 2014, at 1:29 AM, Adam Tippin  wrote:
> >
> > it would seem at least sufficient for our application.
> > Is there a way to check resistance while the board with holes is in the
> stowed position?
> >
> >
> >> On Dec 30, 2014, at 7:17 PM, bjoenunley via KRnet  > wrote:
> >>
> >> Belly board holes or no holes;
> >>
> >> I have considered making a belly board with holes and one without
> holes. Attaching one at a time to a board where I can attach a scale.  I
> would then attach the system to the roof of my truck that I would drive
> down an unused road. I would measure the air resistance at varying speeds.
> >>
> >> Do you believe that this would accurately correlate to flight?
> >>
> >> Joe
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
>
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KR> Belly board

[bjoenunley]

Belly board holes or no holes;

I have considered making a belly board with holes and one without holes. 
Attaching one at a time to a board where I can attach a scale. ?I would then 
attach the system to the roof of my truck that I would drive down an unused 
road. I would measure the air resistance at varying speeds.?

Do you believe that this would accurately correlate to flight?

Joe?




Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone

 Original message From: Dan Branstrom via KRnet 
 Date:12/30/2014  12:34 PM  (GMT-06:00) 
To: krnet at list.krnet.org Subject: Re: KR> Belly board 


Herbert wrote, "..my bellyboard turns down to about 80 deg. and 
after talking to some aerodynamicists and some practical trials I 
decided to let the board without holes. The tests I made are very 
simple.I took a foamsheet ( 1 meter x 1 meter x 5 mm) ,fixed 5 strings 
to the edges and the center with a weight (about 100 grams ) and used my 
"parachute" as testdummy. I dropped the dummy from my ten meter high 
rooftop (5 trials without holes and 5 trials with holes) and compared 
the times I measured. It was easy to recognice that the board without 
holes always gone down slower ! There was a big difference how they sank 
down.The board without holes tumbled much more than the Board with the 
holes (due to the holes,of course) Happy New Year again,Herbert, German 
Kr Bilder Von meinem"

The board without holes fell slower in your test.  The problem is that 
at the speeds a belly brake is deployed, the holes in the belly board 
may generate vortices or turbulence, and hence, parasitic drag, that is 
more of a factor at the 100+ kph (62 mph+) that a belly brake is 
deployed.  Note that the people who have flown both with and without 
holes report more drag with the holes.  I would also think that there 
might be different interactions between the belly board and fuselage or 
tail when there are holes in it that contribute to the difference.  
That's why flight testing is so important, with the real world conditions.

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KR> Belly board

[Dan Branstrom]

Herbert wrote, "..my bellyboard turns down to about 80 deg. and 
after talking to some aerodynamicists and some practical trials I 
decided to let the board without holes. The tests I made are very 
simple.I took a foamsheet ( 1 meter x 1 meter x 5 mm) ,fixed 5 strings 
to the edges and the center with a weight (about 100 grams ) and used my 
"parachute" as testdummy. I dropped the dummy from my ten meter high 
rooftop (5 trials without holes and 5 trials with holes) and compared 
the times I measured. It was easy to recognice that the board without 
holes always gone down slower ! There was a big difference how they sank 
down.The board without holes tumbled much more than the Board with the 
holes (due to the holes,of course) Happy New Year again,Herbert, German 
Kr Bilder Von meinem"

The board without holes fell slower in your test.  The problem is that 
at the speeds a belly brake is deployed, the holes in the belly board 
may generate vortices or turbulence, and hence, parasitic drag, that is 
more of a factor at the 100+ kph (62 mph+) that a belly brake is 
deployed.  Note that the people who have flown both with and without 
holes report more drag with the holes.  I would also think that there 
might be different interactions between the belly board and fuselage or 
tail when there are holes in it that contribute to the difference.  
That's why flight testing is so important, with the real world conditions.

KR> Belly Board

[laser147 at juno.com]

> "I used a hole saw after the foam was glassed."

Ha.  Now you say that.  I saw scissiors in the picture :-).  

Mike
KSEE


The #1 Worst Carb Ever?
Click to Learn #1 Carb that Kills Your Blood Sugar Dont Eat This!
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KR> Belly Board

[laser147 at juno.com]

> "Could you build up the area under the holes with epoxy/flox or
something similar so it would be level with the surface of the belly
board when it's tight against the bottom of the fuselage?"

It appears on my belly board that Ken Cottle took the circles of wood cut
out of the belly board when he cut the holes with a hole saw (I'm
assuming), and epoxied them to the bottom of the fuselage so with the
board retracted it is a flush surface.  Looks like Larry Flesner cut his
holes with scissors so that won't work if you use scissors.

When I first got the plane and was experimenting with things I covered
the holes with packing tape to see if I could tell any difference.  I
think it seemed to work better without the holes but was probably just my
imagination.  Far more important than whether the board has holes or not
is whether it can be extended to something approaching 90?.  Flying Jim
Morehead's KR with it's excellent belly board was several orders of
magnitude better than mine which only goes down 35 or 40 degrees.

Mike
KSEE


Apples Crazy New Gizmo
Forget the iPhone 6. Next hit Apple product leaked. see picture
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/54a05f3d9c0b15f3d52eest04vuc

KR> Belly Board

[Adam Tippin]

 I am not an aero dynamic expert.
I would how ever like to point out that if you look at a golf ball you will 
notice Dimples. These dimples actually decrease drag, by creating a circle 
effect 
just like the bed of a pick up truck with the tailgate up. In a sense, it 
propels the truck forward decreasing drag.
While i don?t trust Mythbusters fully, some of there data is quite accurate. 
This is one of those times that they proved the dimples help.

KR> Belly Board

[Dan Heath]

Now, you are hitting the nail on the head.  That is what I was trying to get
across on my first post on this subject.  Is the effort really worth the
increased drag, when the board with NO holes has worked on many KR?  Even if
you go to all that work to fill the holes when the board is up, you are
never going to be able to get a smooth surface, thus, will you be able to
eliminate all the drag caused by the holes.  Everything in Aviation is a
compromise, just pick your poison and build the thing or you will be too old
to fly it.



My Panther Building Documentation at PantherBuilder Web Site



Daniel R. Heath - Lexington, SC



-Original Message-



I always suspected that holes would give you more drag, and this confirms
it. But the problems with holes is how do you keep them from causing drag
when you're not using the belly board

KR> Belly Board

[Mike T]

I always suspected that holes would give you more drag, and this confirms
it. But the problems with holes is how do you keep them from causing drag
when you're not using the belly board?  I'm pretty sure a surface parallel
to the airflow that's punched full of holes would have more parasite drag
than a smooth surface, and this would be your condition all the time. Could
you build up the area under the holes with epoxy/flox or something similar
so it would be level with the surface of the belly board when it's tight
against the bottom of the fuselage?

Mike Taglieri

On Fri, Dec 26, 2014 at 1:39 PM, Mark Jones via KRnet 
wrote:

> YHa. I just returned from a 1.2 hour flight around Steven
> Point, WI. This was my first flight since 10/25 due to our shi& weather
> we have up here. So what does this have to do with belly boards? Here is
> how I use mine in the landing sequence. I called left downwind 21 Stevens
> Point and reduced my speed to 125 MPH. Next I called turning left base 21
> Stevens point and am now at 120 MPH. I maintain that speed through base and
> call turning final 21 Stevens Point. I pull back the power to slow her to
> 115 and drop the belly board to full down position. At this point I would
> estimate I am now at 1/4 mile final and slowing fast. I cross the numbers
> looking at 80 MPH and when the wheels touch the pavement I am doing 70 MPH
> and she sets down smooth a silk. The following are two links. The first is
> the web link to the construction of my solid belly board. The second is a
> landing video on runway 21 Stevens Point and note you can see the speed
> brake being lowered. Also note the minor deflection of the gear with
> touchdown and that is loaded up with two people on board.
>
> Belly Board web link:  http://www.flykr2s.com/bellyboard.html
>
> Landing video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfXagjar5IE
>
> Mark Jones (N886MJ)
> Stevens Point, WI
> E-mail: flykr2s at charter.net
> Web: www.flykr2s.com
>
>
>
> ___
> Search the KRnet Archives at http://tugantek.com/archmailv2-kr/search.
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>

KR> Belly Board

[Oscar Zuniga]

Mark (Jones), the exhaust note from your airplane really sounds nice.  Maybe 
it's the aft location of the camera that picks up the exhaust sound more 
clearly, but it sure sounds sweet as you roll off of the active.

Oscar Zuniga
Medford, OR

KR> Belly board

[sparksfly2ms at cox.net]

I flew a few hundred hours both ways and the holes did seem to form more drag.  
Sparky Sparks






Sent from Windows Mail





From: Kenneth Wiltrout via KRnet
Sent: ?Friday?, ?December? ?26?, ?2014 ?3?:?23? ?PM
To: KRnet





 I tested the board both ways. The holes seem to help slow it down.Kenny 
WiltroutN6399U







 On Friday, December 26, 2014 12:47 PM, Dan Branstrom via KRnet  wrote:


 I always wondered about the holes in a belly board.  The T-28s I flew 
had them on the belly mounted speed brake that was flush with the 
fuselage when retracted.  I could only imagine that the holes gave it 
greater drag because of conflicting vortices generated by the holes.

At the KR gathering, I noticed that our British friend had holes in his 
belly board.

I've noticed that the speed brakes on jets don't have the holes. Even 
retracted, they cause some disruption of the airflow because the surface 
is not smooth because of the holes.  At the higher speeds of jets, since 
parasitic drag goes up as the square of the speed, holes like that could 
significantly add drag.  A T-28 usually cruised at about 200mph.  That's 
just about the approach speed of jets.

Of course, as home builders, by using foam and fiberglass, bumps made on 
the belly could fill the holes retracted, but at the speeds of a KR, the 
drag caused by the retracted speed brake may not be significant.

Dan Branstrom

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KR> Belly board

[Kenneth Wiltrout]

 I tested the board both ways. The holes seem to help slow it down.Kenny 
WiltroutN6399U







 On Friday, December 26, 2014 12:47 PM, Dan Branstrom via KRnet  wrote:


 I always wondered about the holes in a belly board.? The T-28s I flew 
had them on the belly mounted speed brake that was flush with the 
fuselage when retracted.? I could only imagine that the holes gave it 
greater drag because of conflicting vortices generated by the holes.

At the KR gathering, I noticed that our British friend had holes in his 
belly board.

I've noticed that the speed brakes on jets don't have the holes. Even 
retracted, they cause some disruption of the airflow because the surface 
is not smooth because of the holes.? At the higher speeds of jets, since 
parasitic drag goes up as the square of the speed, holes like that could 
significantly add drag.? A T-28 usually cruised at about 200mph.? That's 
just about the approach speed of jets.

Of course, as home builders, by using foam and fiberglass, bumps made on 
the belly could fill the holes retracted, but at the speeds of a KR, the 
drag caused by the retracted speed brake may not be significant.

Dan Branstrom

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KR> Belly Board

[Mark Jones]

YHa. I just returned from a 1.2 hour flight around Steven 
Point, WI. This was my first flight since 10/25 due to our shi& weather we 
have up here. So what does this have to do with belly boards? Here is how I 
use mine in the landing sequence. I called left downwind 21 Stevens Point 
and reduced my speed to 125 MPH. Next I called turning left base 21 Stevens 
point and am now at 120 MPH. I maintain that speed through base and call 
turning final 21 Stevens Point. I pull back the power to slow her to 115 and 
drop the belly board to full down position. At this point I would estimate I 
am now at 1/4 mile final and slowing fast. I cross the numbers looking at 80 
MPH and when the wheels touch the pavement I am doing 70 MPH and she sets 
down smooth a silk. The following are two links. The first is the web link 
to the construction of my solid belly board. The second is a landing video 
on runway 21 Stevens Point and note you can see the speed brake being 
lowered. Also note the minor deflection of the gear with touchdown and that 
is loaded up with two people on board.

Belly Board web link:  http://www.flykr2s.com/bellyboard.html

Landing video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfXagjar5IE

Mark Jones (N886MJ)
Stevens Point, WI
E-mail: flykr2s at charter.net
Web: www.flykr2s.com

KR> Belly board

[Dan Branstrom]

I always wondered about the holes in a belly board.  The T-28s I flew 
had them on the belly mounted speed brake that was flush with the 
fuselage when retracted.  I could only imagine that the holes gave it 
greater drag because of conflicting vortices generated by the holes.

At the KR gathering, I noticed that our British friend had holes in his 
belly board.

I've noticed that the speed brakes on jets don't have the holes. Even 
retracted, they cause some disruption of the airflow because the surface 
is not smooth because of the holes.  At the higher speeds of jets, since 
parasitic drag goes up as the square of the speed, holes like that could 
significantly add drag.  A T-28 usually cruised at about 200mph.  That's 
just about the approach speed of jets.

Of course, as home builders, by using foam and fiberglass, bumps made on 
the belly could fill the holes retracted, but at the speeds of a KR, the 
drag caused by the retracted speed brake may not be significant.

Dan Branstrom

KR> Belly Board

[Oscar Zuniga]

Keep it up and somebody's going to make a pair of matching boards, one solid 
and one perf'd, and run a comparison test ;o)

Oscar Zuniga
Medford, OR

KR> Belly Board

[Joe Nunley]

RE: Multi-holes drilled air brake : any good ?

I just spoke to my flying buddy, Carl "Flaps" Laffert, 84, who flew both
the SBD Dauntless during WW II with the Marine Corps from Mindanao. He also
flew the Curtiss SB2C Helldiver. He told me the perforations create more
drag. They were first used in the US on the Northrop (a Douglas division at
the time) A-17, built for the Army. It had 3-section flaps, one under each
wing and one in the center. These were on the bottom only, not split as on
the Dauntless. The Army didn't like dive bombers so Douglas built the
Dauntless for the Navy with the split dive flaps/brakes.

He said the first version on the Helldiver had "smooth" flaps (as he called
them) and the dive speed was 315 knots. On a later version they perforated
then like on the Dauntless and at the same dive angle, the dive speed was
285 kts.

Story by Ed Moorman, Shalimar Fl, 553, Former R/C Report Fun Aerobatics
Columnist. 76 and up to my old tricks!

Also found this;
Abstract

Measurements are described of the drag coefficient of porous circular
cylinders (60% open-area ratio) fixed between solid hemispherical end caps,
for five values of aspect ratio between 7.92 and 2.67. The Reynolds number
varies between 104 and 2.6 ? 105. It is found that the drag coefficient
increases with aspect ratio much as a solid cylinder's but its drag
coefficient is about 20% higher (varying between 0.88 to 0.96 as the aspect
ratio is increased).

Flow-visualization experiments have also been conducted, and show how fluid
passes through the cylinders and how the vortex shedding is weaker than for
solid cylinders.

Although based on a cylinder and not flat plate.

Joe
On Dec 25, 2014 9:54 PM, "bjoenunley"  wrote:

> I'm going with a solid belly board.  I'm no aerodynamic engineer,  but I
> can't image more deflection than with a solid piece.
>
> Joe
>
>
> Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone
>
>
>  Original message 
> From: Dan via KRnet
> Date:12/25/2014 7:23 PM (GMT-06:00)
> To: 'KRnet'
> Subject: KR> Belly Board
>
> Can't get into the archives so here's my question.  Holes or no Holes?  I'm
> getting ready to install the belly board and before I do I would like to
> get
> some feedback.
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
> Dan Prichard
>
> Portland, Or.
>
> ___
> Search the KRnet Archives at http://tugantek.com/archmailv2-kr/search.
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> options
>

KR> Belly Board

[bjoenunley]

RE: Multi-holes drilled air brake : any good ?

I just spoke to my flying buddy, Carl "Flaps" Laffert, 84, who flew both the 
SBD Dauntless during WW II with the Marine Corps from Mindanao. He also flew 
the Curtiss SB2C Helldiver. He told me the perforations create more drag. They 
were first used in the US on the Northrop (a Douglas division at the time) 
A-17, built for the Army. It had 3-section flaps, one under each wing and one 
in the center. These were on the bottom only, not split as on the Dauntless. 
The Army didn't like dive bombers so Douglas built the Dauntless for the Navy 
with the split dive flaps/brakes. 

He said the first version on the Helldiver had "smooth" flaps (as he called 
them) and the dive speed was 315 knots. On a later version they perforated then 
like on the Dauntless and at the same dive angle, the dive speed was 285 kts.

Story by Ed Moorman, Shalimar Fl, 553, Former R/C Report Fun Aerobatics 
Columnist. 76 and up to my old tricks!

Also found this;
Abstract

Measurements are described of the drag coefficient of porous circular cylinders 
(60% open-area ratio) fixed between solid hemispherical end caps, for five 
values of aspect ratio between 7.92 and 2.67. The Reynolds number varies 
between 104 and 2.6 ? 105. It is found that the drag coefficient increases with 
aspect ratio much as a solid cylinder's but its drag coefficient is about 20% 
higher (varying between 0.88 to 0.96 as the aspect ratio is increased).

Flow-visualization experiments have also been conducted, and show how fluid 
passes through the cylinders and how the vortex shedding is weaker than for 
solid cylinders.

Although based on a cylinder and not flat plate.

Joe


Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone

 Original message From: Dan via KRnet  Date:12/25/2014  7:23 PM  (GMT-06:00) To: 
'KRnet'  Subject: KR> Belly Board 

Can't get into the archives so here's my question.  Holes or no Holes?  
I'm
getting ready to install the belly board and before I do I would like to get
some feedback.  



Thanks



Dan Prichard

Portland, Or.

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KR> Belly Board

[bjoenunley]

I'm going with a solid belly board. ?I'm no aerodynamic engineer, ?but I can't 
image more deflection than with a solid piece.?

Joe


Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone

 Original message From: Dan via KRnet  Date:12/25/2014  7:23 PM  (GMT-06:00) To: 
'KRnet'  Subject: KR> Belly Board 

Can't get into the archives so here's my question.  Holes or no Holes?  
I'm
getting ready to install the belly board and before I do I would like to get
some feedback.  



Thanks



Dan Prichard

Portland, Or.

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KR> Belly Board

[Dan Heath]

Save yourself a lot of trouble and do NO HOLES.  You can always go back
later and add holes, but you can't take them out.



See N64KR at   http://KRBuilder.org - Then click on
the pics 



2015 KR Gathering - McMinnville, OR.  September 3 - 6 -- See U There.



Peoples Choice at 2013 - KR Gathering in Mt. Vernon, Il - MVN 

Best KR at 2013 - KR Gathering in Mt. Vernon, Il - MVN 

Best Interior at 2013 - KR Gathering in Mt. Vernon, Il - MVN 

Best Paint at 2013 - KR Gathering in Mt. Vernon, Il - MVN 

Best Firwwall Forward at 2013 - KR Gathering in Mt. Vernon, Il - MVN 



Best Interior and Panel at 2008 - KR Gathering in Mt. Vernon, Il - MVN





Daniel R. Heath - Lexington, SC

KR> Belly Board

[Dan]

Can't get into the archives so here's my question.  Holes or no Holes?  I'm
getting ready to install the belly board and before I do I would like to get
some feedback.  



Thanks



Dan Prichard

Portland, Or.

KR> belly board installation in N891JF

[Dan Heath]

Well, since we are doing belly boards ( speed brake ) here is another one.
I modeled this after Mark Jones' installation.

http://krbuilder.org/BellyBoard/index.html


See N64KR at http://KRBuilder.org - Then click on the pics?

Peoples Choice at 2013 - KR Gathering in Mt. Vernon, Il ? MVN 
Best KR at 2013 - KR Gathering in Mt. Vernon, Il ? MVN 
Best Interior at 2013 - KR Gathering in Mt. Vernon, Il ? MVN 
Best Paint at 2013 - KR Gathering in Mt. Vernon, Il ? MVN 
Best Firwwall Forward at 2013 - KR Gathering in Mt. Vernon, Il ? MVN 

Best Interior and Panel at 2008 ? KR Gathering in Mt. Vernon, Il - MVN


Daniel R. Heath -?Lexington, SC

KR> belly board installation in N891JF

[Mark Langford]

It's been awfully quiet lately, so here's a speedbrake installation page for 
your entertainment.  In the last belly board discussion, somebody remarked that 
it was almost impossible to install a belly board in a finished airplane.  This 
example was awfully easy though.  I'm thinking this took maybe 8 hours of my 
time, 12 at the most, and most of that was spent thinking, rather than doing!  
With this go-by, you won't have to do much thinking.  See 
http://www.n56ml.com/n891jf/speedbrake/ .  Working on shoulder belt harness 
next...

Mark Langford
ML at N56ML.com
website at http://www.N56ML.com 

KR> belly board flying characteristics?

[Larry Flesner]

At 06:54 AM 2/10/2014, you wrote:
>Everyone I have ever talked to concerning belly boards always 
>experienced a nose pitch up attitude.


Just a hunch but I'm guessing the rear spar location, being behind 
the CG and CL, might have a bit of a stabilizing factor over the 
forward spar location which is directly on the CG location.  Then 
again,  it may have a bit of de-stabilizing factor with the 
turbulence it creates. I guess that's what testing is all about.

Larry Flesner

KR> belly board flying characteristics?

[Roger Bulla]

I had installed a belly board on my old Kr. It was just in front of the rear 
spar and actuated with a linear actuator. I believe the board was 30 inches 
by 6 inches. I noticed little to no change in pitch when deployed, but did 
add bunch of drag. Something I should have done to that plane years ago. My 
present KR has stock flaps and there is a big change in nose down pitch when 
deployed.


Roger Bulla
rbulla2 at wic.net

-Original Message- 
From: Mark Langford
Sent: Sunday, February 09, 2014 8:26 PM
To: KRnet
Subject: KR> belly board flying characteristics?

I'm about to hang a belly board on N891JF, so I'm doing a little research. 
I plan on putting the hinge point underneath the main spar, and would expect 
deploying the flap would nose the plane down, requiring nose up trim to 
compensate.  That's how the flaps on N56ML work, at least.  Does anybody 
experience different results from a belly board, and if so, where's the 
hinge point for your belly board?

Thanks,

Mark Langford
ML at N56ML.com
website at http://www.N56ML.com


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KR> belly board flying characteristics?

[Mark Jones]

Mark,
Everyone I have ever talked to concerning belly boards always experienced a 
nose pitch up attitude. While on final I have to apply forward stick 
pressure to keep the nose down. This results in slower speed with a low nose 
attitude for great visibility on final. Also, I have never heard of anyone 
mounting the belly board to the main spar. I think if you do this you will 
once again be a pioneer and will have to report your flight characteristics 
as a comparison to the rest of us. Here is the link to my belly board web 
page:
http://www.flykr2s.com/bellyboard.html

Jones

Mark Jones (N886MJ)
Stevens Point, WI
E-mail: flykr2s at charter.net
Web: www.flykr2s.com

KR> belly board flying characteristics?

[Dan Heath]

Mark,

Deploying my board causes significant nose up.  Stick forward is required.
It is hinged as close behind the aft spar as is possible.

http://krbuilder.org/BellyBoard/index.html


See N64KR at http://KRBuilder.org - Then click on the pics?

Peoples Choice at 2013 - KR Gathering in Mt. Vernon, Il ? MVN 
Best KR at 2013 - KR Gathering in Mt. Vernon, Il ? MVN 
Best Interior at 2013 - KR Gathering in Mt. Vernon, Il ? MVN 
Best Paint at 2013 - KR Gathering in Mt. Vernon, Il ? MVN 
Best Firwwall Forward at 2013 - KR Gathering in Mt. Vernon, Il ? MVN 

Daniel R. Heath -?Lexington, SC



-Original Message-

Does anybody experience different results from a belly board, and if so,
where's the hinge point for your belly board?

KR> belly board flying characteristics?

[Nerobro]

A large low pressure behind the board causing the tail to be sucked down?


On Sun, Feb 9, 2014 at 9:36 PM, Larry Flesner
wrote:

> At 09:26 PM 2/9/2014, you wrote:
>
>> I plan on putting the hinge point underneath the main spar, and would
>> expect deploying the flap would nose the plane down, requiring nose up trim
>> to compensate.  That's how the flaps on N56ML work, at least.
>>
> 
> 
>
> The flaps cause a nose down pitching moment as they cause the center of
> lift to shift rearward.  Don't know why my belly board, located at the aft
> spar location, causes a nose up pitch when deployed, slight but noticeable.
>
> Larry Flesner
>
>
>
>
>
> ___
> Search the KRnet Archives at http://tugantek.com/archmailv2-kr/search.
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KR> belly board flying characteristics?

[Larry Flesner]

At 09:26 PM 2/9/2014, you wrote:
>I plan on putting the hinge point underneath the main spar, and 
>would expect deploying the flap would nose the plane down, requiring 
>nose up trim to compensate.  That's how the flaps on N56ML work, at least.


The flaps cause a nose down pitching moment as they cause the center 
of lift to shift rearward.  Don't know why my belly board, located at 
the aft spar location, causes a nose up pitch when deployed, slight 
but noticeable.

Larry Flesner

KR> belly board flying characteristics?

[Mark Langford]

I'm about to hang a belly board on N891JF, so I'm doing a little research.  I 
plan on putting the hinge point underneath the main spar, and would expect 
deploying the flap would nose the plane down, requiring nose up trim to 
compensate.  That's how the flaps on N56ML work, at least.  Does anybody 
experience different results from a belly board, and if so, where's the hinge 
point for your belly board?

Thanks,

Mark Langford
ML at N56ML.com
website at http://www.N56ML.com 

KR> Belly board & linkage

[Dan Heath]

Go to the home page and on the drop down menu pick belly board. It is mine. I 
designed it after Marks so you will see a lot of similarity. 

KRBuilder.org


Dan Heath

> On Dec 5, 2013, at 1:39 PM,  wrote:
> 
> Dan's link didn't work for me but I've seen that link before and it shows
> Jim Morehead's linkage and belly board (I think).  Otherwise, Jim posts
> here from time to time so he won't mind me posting his email.  I'm sure
> he'd be happy to help.  
> 
> KR2JM at sbcglobal.net
> 
> Mike Stirewalt
> KSEE
> 
> 
> Do THIS before eating carbs every time
> 1 EASY tip to increase fat-burning, lower blood sugar & decrease fat storage
> http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/52a0c8a622b6948a56809st04vuc
> 
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KR> Belly board & linkage

[Mark Jones]

Here is the link to my belly board set up.
http://www.flykr2s.com/bellyboard.html



Mark Jones (N886MJ)
Stevens Point, WI
E-mail: flykr2s at charter.net
Web: www.flykr2s.com

KR> Belly board & linkage

[laser147 at juno.com]

Dan's link didn't work for me but I've seen that link before and it shows
Jim Morehead's linkage and belly board (I think).  Otherwise, Jim posts
here from time to time so he won't mind me posting his email.  I'm sure
he'd be happy to help.  

KR2JM at sbcglobal.net

Mike Stirewalt
KSEE


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1 EASY tip to increase fat-burning, lower blood sugar & decrease fat storage
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KR> Belly board position indicator

[Craig Williams]

In case you missed it, FYI

I am building some of my own avionics I am always looking for new gagets and I 
found this flap position indicator and decided to use it for my belly board.

http://www.sportaviationonline.org/sportaviation/201011/?pg=80=2=friend

Craig
www.kr2seafury.com

KR> Belly Board actuators:

[DwneasT]

Attn Mark Jones:
Mark take a look at these actuators and give me your opinion please.
Your setup looks nice.  Would you make any changes if you had to re-do it?

http://www.dcactuators.com/?gclid=CISwv5rbypsCFRJM5QodCmN-KQ

Howard Goodwin
Washington, N.C.
N742HG

KR> Belly board holes

[Larry Flesner]

>. they did it because the airflow over the tail
>was so disturbed by just straight dive brakes without holes that the
>plane was hard to stabilize in the dive so they could aim their
>torpedoes.
>Another reason holes are drilled in belly boards and wing-mounted speed
>brakes is to lighten them.
>
>So I'll continue to keep my holes covered.
>
>Mike
>  

I read the test conclusions (copied below ) to say:

At a deflection angle of greater than 50 degrees, uniform holes in the
flat plate that cover 40 percent of the flat plate area can reduce buffeting
by 66 percent while reducing drag by only 20 percent.  They go on to
suggest that the best arrangement is to have holes that amount to
25 percent of the board area and confine them to the central area of
the board.  This yields similar reduction in buffeting while creating
a bit more drag.

This would indicate that holes in the board, of correct size and spacing,
are advantageous. My board, http://mysite.verizon.net/flesner/19.jpg ,
with holes deflects to near 90 degrees and works very well.  I think
I'll keep my holes.

Larry Flesner
++====+++=
For the isolated square plates tested, uniform perforations give substantial
reductions in the level of velocity fluctuations, at the expense
of comparatively small reductions in drag coefficient.
The reductions in fluctuations are more marked at the low-frequency end
of the spectrum, this being the more important range of frequencies from the
point of view of buffeting in the wake when using these plates as air brakes.
A free area ratio of 0.40 (with uniform perforations) gives a reduction
in the low-frequency component of velocity fluctuations to about one-third
of that for an un perforated plate, with a loss in drag coefficient of less
than 2qi. It is suggested that this value of 0.40 should be a minimum for
design purposes.
With free area ratios larger than 0.40, the gain in fluctuation level
becomes less but the loss in drag greater.
A somewhat better arrangement is to perforate only the central portion,
leaving an unperforated rim. In the arrangement tested, such a plate with
a free area ratio of 0.25 gave as low velocity fluctuations as a uniformly
perforated plate with a ratio 0.40, with  higher drag coefficient.
Perforating near the edges only is less effective than uniform perforations
from the point of view of both drag and velocity fluctuations.
A single test to determine the effect of size of individual holes gave
negligible scale effect.
-

KR> Belly board holes

[laser...@juno.com]

Having flown mine with holes and with holes covered up, it has seemed the
belly board is a little more effective with the holes covered up.  

I'm installing landing & taxi lights in two of the belly board holes and
was wondering if I could clarify once and for all why the dive bombers in
WWII had perforations in their dive brakes.  One might think that the
turbulent air caused by the holes would create more drag and that's why
they did it, but no . . . they did it because the airflow over the tail
was so disturbed by just straight dive brakes without holes that the
plane was hard to stabilize in the dive so they could aim their
torpedoes.  

Another reason holes are drilled in belly boards and wing-mounted speed
brakes is to lighten them.  

To top it off, I found this.  

http://aerade.cranfield.ac.uk/ara/arc/cp/0323.pdf

So I'll continue to keep my holes covered.

Mike


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KR> belly board and flaps

[phil brookman]

has anyone got both --if so what effects did this give 
in pitch 
in stall 
in decent 
and  side slipping 
i think flaps are very necasary with a lot of canopy setups to improve view 
over the nose on apprach 
mine without gives a very shallow descent a tributre to the clean lines ...but 
this gives problems as i strain to see the runway 

flaps helps and also brings a slower stall speed so slower landing s --safer 
--less energy to dissipate 
adding a belly board and flaps should realy get it desending steeper which 
could be very handy getting into some field and also slow it down quicker when 
landing 

your constructive  thought s please
tia
phill

KR> Belly board location

[Brad Ankerstar]

I checked the archives and found 21 posts regarding the location of the 
belly board.  It appears that the location is not real critical since it 
seems to be working at the main spar, the rear spar, or in between.   My 
board is 10" x 30", 1/16 aluminum with a couple 3/4" U channel aluminum 
stiffeners.  There are no holes in it at this point, maybe later.  I'm about 
to install mine and I'm thinking about halfway between the spars with 
appropriate reinforcement. That would be the simplest.

If any of you folks that are flying KRs have any suggestions, pro or con , I 
would appreciate the feedback.  I'm building a standard KR2 with retractable 
gear, a front deck that is a couple inches higher as is the canopy, and a 
somewhat oversized vertical stabilizer and rudder.

Brad Ankerstar
KR2R N84BA, Building
ankerst...@earthlink.net

KR> Belly board location

[Brian G. Douglas]

My KR2 nose wheel has the belly board.  I use it often and without flaps if 
the winds are not good.  The belly board gets used about 80% of the time 
with the flaps used about 30% of the time
hope it helps

Brian G. Douglas
KR2
Killeen Texas
N8575C

- Original Message - 
From: "Brad Ankerstar" 
>
> If any of you folks that are flying KRs have any suggestions, pro or con , 
> I
> would appreciate the feedback.  I'm building a standard KR2 with 
> retractable
> gear, a front deck that is a couple inches higher as is the canopy, and a
> somewhat oversized vertical stabilizer and rudder.
>
> Brad Ankerstar
> KR2R N84BA, Building
> ankerst...@earthlink.net
>
>
>
> 

KR> Belly board location

[Larry Flesner]

>My
>board is 10" x 30", 1/16 aluminum with a couple 3/4" U channel aluminum
>stiffeners.
>  I'm building a standard KR2 with retractable
>gear,
>Brad Ankerstar
+

A 10 inch belly board with retracts?  Are you sure you will
have enough ground clearance?  I'd want nothing less
than 6 inches clearance and that's plenty close.

Larry  Flesner

KR> Belly board location

[Brad Ankerstar]

Thanks Larry,   I'm a little nervous about the clearance but I'm thinking I 
can start cutting if It's too close.  I also have the option to reduce the 
angle.  Won't know what I've got for sure until I get it right side up 
again.

Brad Ankerstar
KR2R N84BA, Building
ankerst...@earthlink.net

KR> Belly Board use

[Colin Rainey]

Brad and netters,
I have a belly board like Larry Flesner's and would not trade it for the
world!  My belly board acts as well or better than any set of flaps I have
used.  I found that on my first flight, that my KR2 would not slow down on
downwind, even at idle, and I thought I was going to have major problems
getting it to land.  When I deployed the belly board to first setting, 25
degrees relative to the bottom fuselage surface, I had a pronounced down
pitching moment, giving better view, and a definite slowing of the plane,
making me add power to maintain a constant glide. Once I turned base leg,
and added the 50 degree setting, my KR2 came down on rails, just as smooth
and straight, and constant descent. I was able to make an approach just like
I could in a Piper Seminole. I could not have done that without the belly
board, and stock flaps are just not effective enough.  Mark Langford and
several others have designed better flaps, I think Orma Robbins re-designed
both the flaps and the ailerons by moving their hinge points to the rear
spar to increase their overall area and effectiveness (see his picture of
"Tweety" in past KR Gatherings).

Brad if ground clearance is an issue, then mount it to the front/main spar.
Once into a landing position/attitude, you should have adequate clearance.
Mine is mounted to the rear spar, but I have Diehl conventional gear, so I
sit a little higher. Larry sits even higher with his longer legs ( I think,
sorry if I am wrong Larry ).

My point is this: the stock KR2 or KR2S develops plenty of lift, too much
when landing, more if Dan Diehl wing skins are used (longer wings).  When
landing the idea is for YOU to be able to determine when the flare occurs,
not the plane.  Mark L talks about it on his site and is the reason why he
used split flaps instead of Fowler or standard flaps (among other
considerations I know).  I want to develop a simple but effective speed
brake for the top of the wing also later. I used them on a Mooney and I fell
in love with them. But that is another story.  In my mind the speed
brake/belly board makes the KR not just more flyable, but safer. More pilots
are hurt or killed during takeoff and landing than any other phase of
flight, and possible all other phases of flight combined.  To be able to
make the landings more consistent, predictable, and slower/more manageable,
I see no reason not to have one.

As Larry F says, your results may vary (ALOT!)

Colin Rainey
brokerpi...@bellsouth.net

KR> Belly Board / Diehl gear

[Larry Flesner]

A
>Mine is mounted to the rear spar, but I have Diehl conventional gear, so I
>sit a little higher. Larry sits even higher with his longer legs ( I think,
>sorry if I am wrong Larry ).
>Colin Rainey


Jeff Scott and I are the only ones that have 30 inch Diehl gear legs
that I'm aware of.  Dan is / was concerned about their length and
wouldn't sell any more (not to mention their price) but Jeff and
I have hundreds of hours each with no problems.  I think Jeff's
are stock.  I added approx 1/8 inch of glass to make mine a
bit thicker.  With my 24 inch fuselage stretch and a rather tall tail
spring, the 24 inch leg had the fuselage setting too flat in the three
point attitude.

Even with the longer legs and a 3 12 degree incidence on the wing,
the wing is below the stall angle in the three point attitude, like most
KR's I suspect.  I'm sure that's the reason my KR lands best using a
tail low wheel landing and then planting it on with a bit of forward stick
when the mains touch.  That technique makes my KR one of the sweetest
landing airplanes I've ever flown.

Speaking of Diehl gear,  for the newer builders that may have picked up
a set of Diehl gear with a project or purchased from another builder,
the early lower castings (aluminum) were recalled by Dan and replaced
with 4130 steel fittings.  DO NOT use the cast aluminum lower fittings.
They had a problem of cracking.  If you have any questions, call Dan.

Larry Flesner

KR> Belly board location/CONSTRUCTION

[Larry H.]

Talking about bellyboard ground clearance !!  The Longezes had a spring loaded 
bellyboard. The idea was to prevent deployment or to cause retraction if too 
much airspeed/air pressure was applied to them. 
The same principal could be applied to the KR2. One of the ideas that flashed 
across my brain is if the belly board was close to the ground when deployed 
with a spring loaded extension system, then  hit something as in a rough field 
landing because lack of ground clearance, the springs would absorb the shock, 
let the belly board flex up instead of tearing up a direct linkage system or 
your electric motor drive, then re-extend itself once past the obstruction.
Another thing to be wary of is placing the extension rods or motordrive where 
it could jam into your spine if you landed hard enough to damage the bottom of 
the aircraft.
Larry H.


>My
>board is 10" x 30", 1/16 aluminum with a couple 3/4" U channel aluminum
>stiffeners.
>  I'm building a standard KR2 with retractable
>gear,
>Brad Ankerstar
+

A 10 inch belly board with retracts?  Are you sure you will
have enough ground clearance?  I'd want nothing less
than 6 inches clearance and that's plenty close.

Larry  Flesner

KR> Belly Board

[Larry H.]

I am just curious, those of you who use belly boards. Do you extend them fully 
everytime? or do you extend them different degrees depending on the situation? 
Old Cessnas had 10, 20, 30, and 40 degree extension slots, so do you use yours 
like this or just one full setting if deployed.
Larry H.


- Original Message 
From: Larry Flesner <fles...@verizon.net>
To: KRnet <kr...@mylist.net>
Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2007 7:26:33 AM
Subject: KR> Belly Board / Diehl gear


A
>Mine is mounted to the rear spar, but I have Diehl conventional gear, so I
>sit a little higher. Larry sits even higher with his longer legs ( I think,
>sorry if I am wrong Larry ).
>Colin Rainey


Jeff Scott and I are the only ones that have 30 inch Diehl gear legs
that I'm aware of.  Dan is / was concerned about their length and
wouldn't sell any more (not to mention their price) but Jeff and
I have hundreds of hours each with no problems.  I think Jeff's
are stock.  I added approx 1/8 inch of glass to make mine a
bit thicker.  With my 24 inch fuselage stretch and a rather tall tail
spring, the 24 inch leg had the fuselage setting too flat in the three
point attitude.

Even with the longer legs and a 3 12 degree incidence on the wing,
the wing is below the stall angle in the three point attitude, like most
KR's I suspect.  I'm sure that's the reason my KR lands best using a
tail low wheel landing and then planting it on with a bit of forward stick
when the mains touch.  That technique makes my KR one of the sweetest
landing airplanes I've ever flown.

Speaking of Diehl gear,  for the newer builders that may have picked up
a set of Diehl gear with a project or purchased from another builder,
the early lower castings (aluminum) were recalled by Dan and replaced
with 4130 steel fittings.  DO NOT use the cast aluminum lower fittings.
They had a problem of cracking.  If you have any questions, call Dan.

Larry Flesner



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KR> Belly Board

[Larry Flesner]

At 02:48 PM 1/20/2007, you wrote:
>Do you extend them fully everytime? or do you extend them different 
>degrees depending on the situation? Old Cessnas had 10, 20, 30, and 
>40 degree extension slots, so do you use yours like this or just one 
>full setting if deployed.
>Larry H.

KR> Belly Board

[Larry Flesner]

At 02:48 PM 1/20/2007, you wrote:
>Do you extend them fully everytime? or do you extend them
>different degrees depending on the situation?
>Larry H.
++

Mine is motor driven so I can extend it to any setting I desire.
I always run it full down, nearly 90 degrees, every time I use
it which is every landing.

Larry Flesner

KR> Belly Board

[Mark Jones]

>I am just curious, those of you who use belly boards. Do you extend them 
>fully everytime?

When I turn final at about 1/2 mile or so out, I drop mine for 3 seconds 
which is about half way. When I am about 100 yards from the end of the 
runway, I drop it all the way and settle in every time with no floating. 
Here is a link to my belly board page: 
http://www.flykr2s.com/bellyboard.html


Mark Jones (N886MJ)
Wales, WI
Visit my web site: www.flykr2s.com
E-mail: flyk...@wi.rr.com

KR> belly board use

[Colin Rainey]

I use my belly board like flaps. I am going to add the electric motor
control from Van's this winter for activation. I apply the first setting
currently 25 degrees just after turning base, or just before if I want to
make a shorter approach.  My theory, and what I have always taught is that
you should always fly a pattern that will get you to the runway with loss of
engine. Base to final or established on final I apply the last notch of 50
degrees.  Once I acquire the new motor I will add a final short final
setting of about 80 to 90 degrees relative to the bottom fuselage.  I have
no holes in mine and it works great. It is attached to the rear spar.

So to answer the question: Yes I use mine like flaps of the trainers, a
notch or setting on each leg of the pattern. This allows for a pretty tight
pattern, flown at a reasonable speed, with lots of control.

This was done in the past:
650# empty weight, 1200 max. (max weight flown to 1050#)
VW 1915cc
52x42 Otto prop
KR2 plans built, no mods by original builder except balanced ailerons and
elevators, and balancing tab on rudder top
Diehl wing skins
approach rpm 1400 to 1500
dw 100 mph; base 95 to 90 mph; final 85 to 80; over the fence at 75 mph;
numbers at 65 mph


Colin Rainey
brokerpi...@bellsouth.net

KR> belly board use - ELECTRIC KIT AVAILABILITY

[Steve Glover]

-Original Message-
I am going to add the electric motor control from Van's this winter for
activation. 

END.
..

Hello Netter's,

Van's kit is rather expensive at $450+.  I could probably put together
the same kit I use on my EZ if anyone is interested.  I will be using
the same set up for my new KR.  You have your choice of throw distance,
4, 6, or 8 inch.  The motors have internal brake and limit switches at
both ends of the range.  I currently have mine set up to run from my
stick with a relay. 

Cost would probably be around $250 plus shipping for the kit which would
include the drive motor, panel mounted toggle, and the appropriate
shielded wire. The weight of the motor is very light at 2lbs .5oz.
Dynamic load is 110 lbs with 500lbs static. I use the 4" in the EZ speed
brake which is more than adequate.

If using a switch from a stick, it would be cheaper for one to pick up
the relay at radio shack.  I can provide model number and wiring
instructions for the relay.  Since everyone's mounting point or type
would most likely be different, it would also make more sense for each
to make their own mounting bracket.  A couple pieces of angle aluminum
would do the trick.  If needed, I could also source these pieces as well
to save time and trouble of getting everything together for your
project.

Please contact me offline.

Regards,

Steve Glover
Long-EZ N2121U
(Former KR-2 N902G)
Corona, Ca

KR> belly board use

[Joe Beyer]

Just wanted to ask if they work better with holes in them. It would seem
that they would generate more drag that way. I noticed that some of them are
an aluminum plates with no holes. 
-Joe  

> I have no 
> holes in mine and it works great. It is attached to the rear spar.
> 

> 
> 
> Colin Rainey
> brokerpi...@bellsouth.net
> 
> 

KR> belly board / holes or no holes

[Larry Flesner]

At 08:06 AM 1/22/2007, you wrote:
>Just wanted to ask if they work better with holes in them. It would seem
>that they would generate more drag that way. I noticed that some of them are
>an aluminum plates with no holes.
>-Joe
++=

I wouldn't know which way they work better (holes or no holes) as
mine started life with holes.  I figured if holes worked on the
Douglas Dive Bomber or torpedo plane, whichever it was, it would
work on the KR.  My board is 1/4 inch foam and glass with
appropriate wood hard points for hinge and actuator attach points.

Larry Flesner

KR> belly board

[countryhomeprint]

Netters - I just finished installing my belly board. Have not tried it yet as 
my engine (from a collision with a truck) is not back from Great Plains. I 
followed Mark Jones' method with the board hinged just behind the aft spar. My 
board is 1/8 foam core with several layers of fiberglass with hard points for 
attaching. My total thickness is about 3/16" and weighs next to nothing and is 
very strong and stiff. All of the edges were routed out and filled with milled 
fiber (about 1/4"). Size is 9" x 27" with ten 2" holes. The inside fuselage 
set-up is entirely 1/4" aircraft plywood. I utilize the Van's RV4 flap actuator 
and a momentary micro switch from Radio Shack. Just as Mark Jones did, I 
installed a LED (red) light attached to the micro switch which glows red when 
the board is extended to prevent accidental take-off with board down. I haven't 
weighed the entire system, but I estimate it weights less than 5 pounds. Also, 
the cut-out hole pieces were saved and attached back inside of the belly board 
holes to prevent noise. The board extends downward 57 degrees from the 
horizontal which leaves me about 6 inches of clearance with the ground.

Refer to Mark Jones' web site to get excellent pictures of how this set-up was 
accomplished. I will report back as to how it works once I get back into the 
air.

Bill Page
N880AB
boliverp...@bellsouth.net

KR> belly board

[Rick Sexton]

Does anybody have pictures of  a belly board installation posted on the net
or would you share some with me via e-mail.  Looking at options for flaps ?
vs ? this type of set-up.  I?ve researched the archives, seems like in the
pas there has been quite  discussion surrounding this question ? so guys,
right now I just want to look at some installations and plans/modifications
to the fuselage if you have them.  

Thanks,  Rick 

KR> belly board

[Mark Jones]

Here is mine: http://www.flykr2s.com/bellyboard.html

Mark Jones (N886MJ)
Wales, WI
My Web site: http://www.flykr2s.com/
Mailto:flyk...@wi.rr.com


-Original Message-
From: krnet-boun...@mylist.net [mailto:krnet-boun...@mylist.net]On
Behalf Of Rick Sexton
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 3:34 PM
To: kr...@mylist.net
Subject: KR> belly board


Does anybody have pictures of  a belly board installation posted on the net
or would you share some with me via e-mail.  Looking at options for flaps ?
vs ? this type of set-up.  I?ve researched the archives, seems like in the
pas there has been quite  discussion surrounding this question ? so guys,
right now I just want to look at some installations and plans/modifications
to the fuselage if you have them.  

Thanks,  Rick 



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KR> belly board

[Larry Flesner]

At 04:01 PM 12/26/2006, Mark Jones wrote:
>Here is mine: http://www.flykr2s.com/bellyboard.html
>
>Mark Jones
+

My setup is similar to Mark's and my only comment on his
is that it is probably a bit "over-built".

I use a Cessna 150 flap motor to actuate mine and I'd love to
have an RV motor like Mark's.  I could knock five pounds off
the weight.

My board is made of 1/4 inch foam and glass.  I installed a strip
of pine ( 1/4" by approx 1 1/2") in the lead edge and a piece of
1/4" ply block where the actuator arm attaches.  The hinge is
floxed and glassed to the lead edge.  I cut 15 or 20 - 3/4" holes
in mine which I hoped would give extra drag.  My board will
lower to near 90 degrees in about 7 seconds and the extra
drag makes for a totally different airplane in the landing mode.

The floor is plenty strong to attach to.  Mine is attached to the floor
just behind the rear spar.  I added a piece of clear pine molding
from the lumber yard ( 1/4" by approx 1/12", same as the board
lead edge) the entire width of the fuselage floor on the top side
where the board mounts.  I used 5 each, 3/16 bolts with wood
washers on the inside of the fuselage floor to mount.  I tapered
the edges of the board and built a small air ramp of foam to
the fuselage bottom to fair the lead edge of the board.  I routinely
lower the board up to 110 mph indicated with no problems.

If you build your board of foam and glass when the KR is upside
down, you could glass one side of the board (the side next to
the fuselage laid out on plastic) and weight the board while the
glass cures.  This should make the board conform to the curve
in the fuselage bottom for better streamlining.

A similar board and mounting system could be used , regardless
of the means of actuation.

Larry Flesner

KR> Belly board mounting

[Ralph H Snyder]

Mark
I like the looks of your installation, but that would completely close
off my luggage compartment behind the rear spar. I was thinking of
mounting it between the 2 spars on a 1" x 2"  reinforcement across the
floor board. Could any one tell me if this will give me the strength that
I will need to support the belly board?
Ralph Snyder
Burbank CA
ralphnd...@juno.com

On Sat, 28 May 2005 16:54:49 -0500 "flykr2s" <flyk...@wi.rr.com> writes:
> Ralph,
> Check out my system, It works perfect. You should really have it 
> mounted to
> the rear spar for strength. The front spar is too far forward. mine 
> is on
> the front side of the rear spar. Here is a link to my details.
> http://mywebpage.netscape.com/n886mj/bellyboard.html
> 
> Mark Jones (N886MJ)
> Wales, WI
> 
> - Original Message - 
> From: "Ralph H Snyder" <ralphnd...@juno.com>
> To: <kr...@mylist.net>
> Sent: Saturday, May 28, 2005 4:34 PM
> Subject: KR> Belly board mounting
> 
> 
> > I want to mount  the belly board between the front and rear spar. 
> I can't
> > mount it behind the rear spar because that is my luggage 
> compartment. I
> > searched 235 messages in the archives and only 2 were mounted 
> ahead of
> > the rear spar. One was 4" behind the front spar and the other was
> > somewhere in between the spars.
> > Has someone mounted it in between the spars? How well did it work, 
> and
> > how was the stability?
> > Thanks for any information
> >
> > Ralph Snyder
> > Burbank CA
> > ralphnd...@juno.com
> >
> > ___
> > Search the KRnet Archives at 
> http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp
> > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to 
> krnet-le...@mylist.net
> > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
> >
> 
> 
> 
> ___
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> please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
> 
> 


Ralph Snyder
Burbank CA
ralphnd...@juno.com

KR> Belly board mounting

[Barry Kruyssen]

I have been also investigating belly board mounting and this what I've been 
thinking and what I intend to do, maybe?  :-)

Most Gliders have their airbrakes at the CofG, mounting a belly board behind 
the CofG will induce a pitching motion when deployed. While everyone says that 
a belly board should be behind at or behind the CofG, I question this as we get 
an enormous amount of drag from the propeller when the engine is at idle and 
it's way out in front :-)  The forces on the belly board will be half way 
between the pivot point and the actuators mounting point, assuming the actuator 
is mounted to the end of the belly board, which most aren't. Therefore it will 
be at some point in-between which can be calculated by someone smarter than me 
(angles, moments and stuff will affect where the centre of force is, too 
complex to consider for me)

Also belly boards are out there already working mounted from 4" behind the 
front spar to behind the rear spar.

>From above I intend to mount my belly board with the hinge at the centre of 
>the CofG range, but first I have to work out how, and where, to mount the 
>actuator.

Comments Please

Thanks
Barry Kruyssen
Cairns, Australia
RAA 19-3873 

k...@bigpond.com
http://www.users.bigpond.com/kr2/kr2.htm 




  - Original Message - 
  From: Ralph H Snyder 
  To: kr...@mylist.net 
  Sent: Monday, May 30, 2005 5:21 PM
  Subject: Re: KR> Belly board mounting


  Mark
  I like the looks of your installation, but that would completely close
  off my luggage compartment behind the rear spar. I was thinking of
  mounting it between the 2 spars on a 1" x 2"  reinforcement across the
  floor board. Could any one tell me if this will give me the strength that
  I will need to support the belly board?
  Ralph Snyder
  Burbank CA
  ralphnd...@juno.com

  On Sat, 28 May 2005 16:54:49 -0500 "flykr2s" <flyk...@wi.rr.com> writes:
  > Ralph,
  > Check out my system, It works perfect. You should really have it 
  > mounted to
  > the rear spar for strength. The front spar is too far forward. mine 
  > is on
  > the front side of the rear spar. Here is a link to my details.
  > http://mywebpage.netscape.com/n886mj/bellyboard.html
  > 
  > 
  > - Original Message - 
  > From: "Ralph H Snyder" <ralphnd...@juno.com>
  > 
  > > I want to mount  the belly board between the front and rear spar. 
  > I can't
  > > mount it behind the rear spar because that is my luggage 
  > compartment. I
  > > searched 235 messages in the archives and only 2 were mounted 
  > ahead of
  > > the rear spar. One was 4" behind the front spar and the other was
  > > somewhere in between the spars.
  > > Has someone mounted it in between the spars? How well did it work, 
  > and
  > > how was the stability?
  > > Thanks for any information
  > >

KR> Belly Board Location

[JIM VANCE]

The further forward you locate the board, the more unstable it will be.  
Placing it forward of the center of gravity--like the main spar--would be like 
putting the feathers on the head of an arrow.  

I hinged my board from just  below the rear spar.  My board is only 9 inches 
high, but given the reports by those using them, it should be adequate.

Jim Vance, Claflin, KS
va...@claflinwildcats.com

KR> Belly board mounting

[Ralph H Snyder]

I want to mount  the belly board between the front and rear spar. I can't
mount it behind the rear spar because that is my luggage compartment. I
searched 235 messages in the archives and only 2 were mounted ahead of
the rear spar. One was 4" behind the front spar and the other was
somewhere in between the spars.
Has someone mounted it in between the spars? How well did it work, and
how was the stability?
Thanks for any information

Ralph Snyder
Burbank CA
ralphnd...@juno.com

KR> Belly board mounting

[flykr2s]

Ralph,
Check out my system, It works perfect. You should really have it mounted to
the rear spar for strength. The front spar is too far forward. mine is on
the front side of the rear spar. Here is a link to my details.
http://mywebpage.netscape.com/n886mj/bellyboard.html

Mark Jones (N886MJ)
Wales, WI

- Original Message - 
From: "Ralph H Snyder" <ralphnd...@juno.com>
To: <kr...@mylist.net>
Sent: Saturday, May 28, 2005 4:34 PM
Subject: KR> Belly board mounting


> I want to mount  the belly board between the front and rear spar. I can't
> mount it behind the rear spar because that is my luggage compartment. I
> searched 235 messages in the archives and only 2 were mounted ahead of
> the rear spar. One was 4" behind the front spar and the other was
> somewhere in between the spars.
> Has someone mounted it in between the spars? How well did it work, and
> how was the stability?
> Thanks for any information
>
> Ralph Snyder
> Burbank CA
> ralphnd...@juno.com
>
> ___
> Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp
> to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net
> please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
>

KR> Belly Board

[Barry Kruyssen]

Hi all,

I am going to retro fit a belly board to my KR2.

I have been searching the archives and they are mentioned so often it is hard 
to find the info I'm after, 3.5 hours of reading and I am more confused.

So I have a few questions below and if people could reply I will colate the 
info into a single source of info.
  a.. Links to photos, building details, etc (forget the reast below if it is 
on your link.)
  b.. Size, width X height X thickness
  3.. Construction material
  4.. Weight
  5.. Holes? Yes or No
  6.. How hinged
  7.. How deployed, leverage required (I'm planing on a manual lever like a 
hand brake in a car)
  8.. Performance (effectiveness) statistics.
  9.. Any don'ts
Thanks in advance
Barry Kruyssen
Cairns, Australia
RAA 19-3873 

k...@bigpond.com
http://www.users.bigpond.com/kr2/kr2.htm 

KR> Belly Board

[Phillip Matheson]

http://mywebpage.netscape.com/n886mj/bellyboard.html

Mark Joes has some info on belly boards

Phillip Matheson
mathe...@dodo.com.au
Australia
VH PKR
See our engines  and kits at.
http://www.vw-engines.com/
http://www.homebuilt-aviation.com/
See my KR Construction web page at
http://mywebpage.netscape.com/FlyingKRPhil/VHPKR.html

Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp
to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net
please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html

KR> Belly Board

[Dan Heath]

Bill Clapp made a really nice one with a very simple actuation mechanism. At
one time he was going to sell the parts or something like that. Bill, if you
are out there, are you selling the belly board stuff now? 



See you in Mt. Vernon - 2005 - KR Gathering

See N64KR at http://KR-Builder.org - Then click on the pics 

There is a time for building and a time for FLYING and the time for building
has expired.

Daniel R. Heath - Columbia, SC

---Original Message---



I am going to retro fit a belly board to my KR2.

KR> Belly Board Air Brake

[larry flesner]

At 05:59 PM 8/23/04 -0500, you wrote:
>Here is a link to my new web page on my Belly Board Air Brake.
>http://mywebpage.netscape.com/n886mj/bellyboard.html
>Mark Jones (N886MJ)
+++

Mark,

Do you know what the weight of the unit is?  I might decide to trade
my big heavy Cessna flap motor  for a much lighter one.  That would
lighten my wallet also so it could be a win/win situation in the 
weight catagory.

Also, an observation on your installation for those that haven't gotten
to that point yet.  I'm not throwing rocks here but trying to add to
the information base.  I'm thinking your mounting of the belly board is 
a bit of an overkill in the weight area.  My speed brake,  9"X30", is
mounted to the floor immediately behind the rear spar.  I reinforced
the floor with a piece of spruce, approx 1 or 1 1/2 inches wide from
bottom longeron to bottom longeron and 1/4" thick.  I used 5 each
3/16" bolts through this piece to mount the piano hinge to the bottom
of the KR.  My setup is nearly identical to yours and the brake
deploys to near 90 degrees.  I have 87 hours on the KR now and the
brake has been fully deployed on all but one landing and no problems.

My brake is 1/4" foam with spruce hard points on the lead edge and
motor attach point.  The piano hinge is floxed to the brake and I 
have a number of 1" (approx) holes in the brake.  The edges are
somewhat feathered and there is an "air ramp" just ahead of the
piano hinge to help streamline the assembly.  I think there are
pictures on the KRnet web page with my project.

How many days to the Gathering???

Larry Flesner

KR> Belly Board Air Brake

[Dan Heath]

Larry,

How much difference is there, landing with and without the board deployed? 

"There is a time for building and a time for GOING TO THE GATHERING, and the
time for building has long since expired."

See you in Mt. Vernon - 2004 - KR Gathering http://KRGathering.org

See N64KR at http://KR-Builder.org - Then click on the pics

Daniel R. Heath - Columbia, SC

KR> Belly Board Air Brake

[Mark Jones]

Larry,
I did not weigh it but I think it would be very close to one pound.

Mark Jones (N886MJ)
Wales, WI  USA 
E-mail me at flyk...@wi.rr.com
Visit my KR-2S CorvAIRCRAFT web site at   
http://mywebpage.netscape.com/n886mj/homepage.html


- Original Message - 
From: "larry flesner" <fles...@midwest.net>
To: "KRnet" <kr...@mylist.net>
Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2004 5:23 AM
Subject: KR> Belly Board Air Brake


> At 05:59 PM 8/23/04 -0500, you wrote:
> >Here is a link to my new web page on my Belly Board Air Brake.
> >http://mywebpage.netscape.com/n886mj/bellyboard.html
> >Mark Jones (N886MJ)
> +++
> 
> Mark,
> 
> Do you know what the weight of the unit is?  I might decide to trade
> my big heavy Cessna flap motor  for a much lighter one.  That would
> lighten my wallet also so it could be a win/win situation in the 
> weight catagory.
> 
> Also, an observation on your installation for those that haven't gotten
> to that point yet.  I'm not throwing rocks here but trying to add to
> the information base.  I'm thinking your mounting of the belly board is 
> a bit of an overkill in the weight area.  My speed brake,  9"X30", is
> mounted to the floor immediately behind the rear spar.  I reinforced
> the floor with a piece of spruce, approx 1 or 1 1/2 inches wide from
> bottom longeron to bottom longeron and 1/4" thick.  I used 5 each
> 3/16" bolts through this piece to mount the piano hinge to the bottom
> of the KR.  My setup is nearly identical to yours and the brake
> deploys to near 90 degrees.  I have 87 hours on the KR now and the
> brake has been fully deployed on all but one landing and no problems.
> 
> My brake is 1/4" foam with spruce hard points on the lead edge and
> motor attach point.  The piano hinge is floxed to the brake and I 
> have a number of 1" (approx) holes in the brake.  The edges are
> somewhat feathered and there is an "air ramp" just ahead of the
> piano hinge to help streamline the assembly.  I think there are
> pictures on the KRnet web page with my project.
> 
> How many days to the Gathering???
> 
> Larry Flesner
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ___
> to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net
> please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html

KR> Belly Board Air Brake

[larry flesner]

>Larry,
>How much difference is there, landing with and without the board deployed? 
>Daniel R. Heath - Columbia, SC
+++=

When I deploy the speed brake and don't change pitch or power I
get about a 10mph drop in airspeed (rough guess) and an increase
in decent rate.  I seem to recall from a past post that it increases
my decent rate by 300+ fpm.  

When using the brake on landing it allows me to carry a bit of power
and it helps to keep the nose down for better visibility.  I think it's
easier to stabilize the airspeed on approach also.  Flying without it
would certianly be possible but I'd hate to be without it.  Like last
week when I was landing at a 3000 foot grass strip, approaching
along a hill, over a railroad track with powerlines, just over some
trees, two grain bins and a hangar, I was able to chop power at
the point 25 feet above ground and lower the nose a bit.  I was
down and stopped by approx 2000 feet.  It would not have been
as comfortable of an approach without the speed brake.  Each
KR flyer has a different comfort level, skills, and mission plan.
You be the judge.

One caution on the electrically operated speed brake.  You can
eat up a lot of runway waiting for the brake to retract.  I may 
change my setup to trade power for speed on the actuation.
A torque tube with different length arms maybe.  Right now
I have a direct push-pull setup.  You can eat up about 100 
feet of runway per second at 70 mph and my brake takes 
7 seconds to retract.  If you're not careful the pucker can pull 
the grin right off your face!  :-)  Not a problem when you have
lots of cement ahead of you but when you abort halfway down
a 2800 foot grass strip with trees on the end, well, that's 
best told over a brew or two.  

Larry Flesner

KR> Belly Board Air Brake

[larry flesner]

>Larry,
>I did not weigh it but I think it would be very close to one pound.
>Mark Jones (N886MJ)


Mark,

I'd guess it closer to 2 pounds.  You know how things get heavier
when installed on an airplane.  I'll bet my Cessna flap motor goes
5 pounds if it's an ounce.  I'll have to look into that.  A friend of mine
is building an RV and probably has one.  If I could move my motor
from the baggage area to the seat back ( I have a perfect spot) and
knock off several pounds it may be worth the hassle.  

Larry Flesner

KR> Belly Board Air Brake

[Mark Jones]

yeeeaaamaybe, but I am leaning closer to 1.5 lb max.

Mark Jones (N886MJ)
Wales, WI  USA
E-mail me at flyk...@wi.rr.com
Visit my KR-2S CorvAIRCRAFT web site at
http://mywebpage.netscape.com/n886mj/homepage.html


- Original Message - 
From: "larry flesner" <fles...@midwest.net>
To: "KRnet" <kr...@mylist.net>
Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2004 5:35 PM
Subject: Re: KR> Belly Board Air Brake


> >Larry,
> >I did not weigh it but I think it would be very close to one pound.
> >Mark Jones (N886MJ)
> 
>
> Mark,
>
> I'd guess it closer to 2 pounds.  You know how things get heavier
> when installed on an airplane.  I'll bet my Cessna flap motor goes
> 5 pounds if it's an ounce.  I'll have to look into that.  A friend of mine
> is building an RV and probably has one.  If I could move my motor
> from the baggage area to the seat back ( I have a perfect spot) and
> knock off several pounds it may be worth the hassle.
>
> Larry Flesner
>
>
>
> ___
> to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net
> please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html

KR> Belly Board Air Brake

[Mark Langford]

My flap motor (which I believe is identical to Mark Jones' belly board
jackscrew) weighs one pound, 7.8 ounces, and burns .63 amps at 12 volts.

Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama
N56ML "at" hiwaay.net
see KR2S project at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford

KR> Belly Board motor

[larry flesner]

>My flap motor (which I believe is identical to Mark Jones' belly board
>jackscrew) weighs one pound, 7.8 ounces, and burns .63 amps at 12 volts.
>Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama
++


Mark L.,

Thanks.  I guess that splits the differance on Mark's estimate of 
one pound and my estimate of two pounds.  I'm certianly going
to check it out.  Even if I don't relocate the motor I can save
several pounds and with them being back in the baggage area
they start to get critical on C.G.

Larry Flesner

KR> Belly Board motor

[Stephen Jacobs]

burns .63 amps at 12 volts



I would have expected a larger drain under typical flight loads - did
you give it some "resistance"?

Please be real careful about lowering mechanisms that may fail /burn out
/trip at a bad time.

A belly board contributes very little (relative) to lift - particularly
at the typical deployment angles.  Unlike flaps, you can pop it up at
any time if you need to.

Someone reported on the impact of a belly board on the take off roll -
that told me enough.  I presume he was doing C's, why else would he
know how the bird accelerates with the brakes on?

Steve J

KR> Belly Board Air Brake

[Mark Jones]

Here is a link to my new web page on my Belly Board Air Brake.
http://mywebpage.netscape.com/n886mj/bellyboard.html

Mark Jones (N886MJ)
Wales, WI  USA 
E-mail me at flyk...@wi.rr.com
Visit my KR-2S CorvAIRCRAFT web site at   
http://mywebpage.netscape.com/n886mj/homepage.html

KR>Belly Board

[raybeth...@wmconnect.com]

   roger,
 ai would like to have your drawings on the Belly Board.  I have mine made 
40"x 10" of foam and fiberglass construction.  I primarily need the handle 
mechanism. did you hear from Justin?  I have not.
Ray Goree

raybeth...@wmconnect.com

KR>Belly Board

[raybeth...@wmconnect.com]

   Larry,
 Do you happen to have a sketch of your handle mechanism?


Ray Goree  Arlington, Tx   raybeth...@wmconnect.com

KR>Belly Board

[larry flesner]

>   Larry,
> Do you happen to have a sketch of your handle mechanism?>

>Ray Goree 
++

Ray,

If this post was for me, I have no handle mechanism.  My belly
board (  9" X 30" ) is operated with an elect motor/jack screw.
The base of the motor is anchored and the jackscrew makes
a straight line push/pull on the board to activate.  

check out  http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford/flesner/02092595.jpg

Larry Flesner

KR>belly board (Larry)

[j stevens]

Larry Flesner wrote:

I have no handle mechanism.  My belly
board (  9" X 30" ) is operated with an elect motor/jack screw.
The base of the motor is anchored and the jackscrew makes
a straight line push/pull on the board to activate. 

Larry that is a great way to activate your belly board .I would consider 
installing such a mechanism could you send a few more photos of you 
installation inside and out? And may be a shot of your switch?

Thanks Joel
j...@usfamily.net




-- http://USFamily.Net/info - Unlimited Internet - From $8.99/mo! --

KR>Belly Board

[Les Criscillo]

Clear DayAre there any plans or drawings for adding a belly board to the KR2?


Les Criscillo
Tampa, FL

lcris...@tampabay.rr.com
leslifeandfrie...@groups.msn.com

KR>Belly Board

[Ron Freiberger]

Lots of commentary... see the archives

Ron Freiberger
mailto: rfreiber...@swfla.rr.com

-Original Message-
From: krnet-bounces+rfreiberger=swfla.rr@mylist.net
[mailto:krnet-bounces+rfreiberger=swfla.rr@mylist.net]On Behalf Of Les
Criscillo
Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2003 6:00 PM
To: KR2 Mailing List
Subject: KR>Belly Board

Clear DayAre there any plans or drawings for adding a belly board to the
KR2?


Les Criscillo
Tampa, FL

lcris...@tampabay.rr.com
leslifeandfrie...@groups.msn.com

KR>Belly Board

[Justin]

THE GUY ASKED A SIMPLE QUESTION AND ALL YOU CAN DO IS TELL HIM TO SEE THE
ARCHIVES! Your flat out lazy Ron Freiberger.

Les,
Go here and type in a search for belly board,speed brake etc...
http://www.escribe.com/aviation/krnet/

Also you can go through gathering pictures and look at other people's idea's
and designs. I have a drawing for a speed brake, E-mail me if you are
intrested.

Justin
N116JW
www.geocities.com/attngrabber14/Home
- Original Message -
From: "Ron Freiberger" <rfreiber...@swfla.rr.com>
To: "KRnet" <kr...@mylist.net>
Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2003 5:09 PM
Subject: RE: KR>Belly Board


> Lots of commentary... see the archives
>
> Ron Freiberger
> mailto: rfreiber...@swfla.rr.com
>
> -Original Message-
> From: krnet-bounces+rfreiberger=swfla.rr@mylist.net
> [mailto:krnet-bounces+rfreiberger=swfla.rr@mylist.net]On Behalf Of Les
> Criscillo
> Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2003 6:00 PM
> To: KR2 Mailing List
> Subject: KR>Belly Board
>
> Clear DayAre there any plans or drawings for adding a belly board to the
> KR2?
>
>
> Les Criscillo
> Tampa, FL
>
> lcris...@tampabay.rr.com
> leslifeandfrie...@groups.msn.com
>
>
> ___
> see KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html
>

KR>Belly Board

[Les Criscillo]

Ron, I appreciate your reply, I was unaware of the extensive information 
available in the message archive and spent the better part of last evening 
getting a first class education!.

Justin-like, chill out dudeshouting isn't necessary and Ron's answer was 
dead on helpful. Now you may require a little more handholding...but I'm 
sure that's another story.

Les Criscillo
Tampa, FL

lcris...@tampabay.rr.com
leslifeandfrie...@groups.msn.com
  - Original Message - 
  From: Mark Langford 
  To: KRnet 
  Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2003 07:28
  Subject: Re: KR>Belly Board


  Justin wrote:

  > THE GUY ASKED A SIMPLE QUESTION AND ALL YOU CAN DO IS TELL HIM TO SEE THE
  > ARCHIVES! Your flat out lazy Ron Freiberger.

  Ron is absolutely right. Why should we be expected to regurgitate everything
  we know about belly boards, when there are 151 messages that cover every
  single aspect of the belly board implementation already written in the



  ___
  see KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html

KR>Belly Board

[Justin]

No, What Ron left you with wasn't even a website. Myself and Mark L gave
the website where you can search up the archives.

Group: Not everyone may know of the archives being able to search them
and if not where at. Les you have no say in this.

Besides that I have drawn plans for a Speed brake that I offered to him
and anyone else who is intrested.

Justin
N116JW
www.geocities.com/attngrabber14/Home
- Original Message -
From: "Les Criscillo" <lcris...@tampabay.rr.com>
To: "KRnet" <kr...@mylist.net>
Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2003 6:53 AM
Subject: Re: KR>Belly Board


Ron, I appreciate your reply, I was unaware of the extensive information
available in the message archive and spent the better part of last evening
getting a first class education!.

Justin-like, chill out dudeshouting isn't necessary and Ron's answer was
dead on helpful. Now you may require a little more handholding...but I'm
sure that's another story.

Les Criscillo
Tampa, FL

lcris...@tampabay.rr.com
leslifeandfrie...@groups.msn.com
  - Original Message -
  From: Mark Langford
  To: KRnet
  Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2003 07:28
  Subject: Re: KR>Belly Board


  Justin wrote:

  > THE GUY ASKED A SIMPLE QUESTION AND ALL YOU CAN DO IS TELL HIM TO SEE
THE
  > ARCHIVES! Your flat out lazy Ron Freiberger.

  Ron is absolutely right. Why should we be expected to regurgitate
everything
  we know about belly boards, when there are 151 messages that cover every
  single aspect of the belly board implementation already written in the



  ___
  see KRnet list details at
http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html__
_
see KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html

KR>Belly Board

[paulw...@webtv.net]

Hi, all;
Spaking of bellyboards.I searched the archives for info on the
most effective deflection for B/B's and came up short. My question; Is
45 dgrees enough, or should I find a way to increase it? I'm using Rand
Robinson's flap control which deflects to 45 degrees max.

Paul Gangemi
KR2s...priming
EAA 160
Erie, PA




http://community.webtv.net/paulwasp/paulwaspspad

KR>Belly Board

[roger mitchell]

Justin, Roger here, I'm instrested,pls send dwg's/plans off net to me

  Besides that I have drawn plans for a Speed brake that I offered to him
  and anyone else who is intrested.

  Justin
  N116JW
  www.geocities.com/attngrabber14/Home