KR> Flaps & Spoilers

[ppaulvsk]

Wow Dan!?
?I hope you don't mind if I took some notes.

Paul Visk
Belleville Il
618-406-4705

Sent on the new Sprint Network from my Samsung Galaxy S?4.

 Original message From: bjoenunley via KRnet 
 Date:02/04/2015  8:07 PM  (GMT-06:00) 
To: Dan via KRnet  Subject: Re: 
KR> Flaps & Spoilers 
Dan,

Very clever flaps and spoiler system. 


Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone

 Original message From: Dan via KRnet  Date:02/04/2015  6:17 PM  (GMT-06:00) To: 
'KRnet'  Subject: KR> Flaps & Spoilers 

I finally got around to posting a video on youtube of my flap and spoiler
system.  Check it out and watch it run.  Still have a little tweeking to do.



http://youtu.be/nGLz82kxDNY



Dan Prichard

Portland Oregon

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KR> Flaps & Spoilers

[Peter Johnson]

Hi Dan.

Are you going to install an electric contact/reaker switch on the flap 
screwjack?

Will you install a download spring to keep the spoilers down during slow 
flight?


Peter Johnson
Kenora, Ontario


- Original Message - 
From: "bjoenunley via KRnet" 
To: "Dan via KRnet" 
Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2015 8:07 PM
Subject: Re: KR> Flaps & Spoilers


>
>
>
> http://youtu.be/nGLz82kxDNY
>

KR> Flaps & Spoilers

[Dan Prichard]

Not at all. Let me know if you need more info. 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Feb 4, 2015, at 7:38 PM, ppaulvsk via KRnet  
> wrote:
> 
> Wow Dan! 
>  I hope you don't mind if I took some notes.
> 
> Paul Visk
> Belleville Il
> 618-406-4705
> 
> Sent on the new Sprint Network from my Samsung Galaxy S?4.
> 
>  Original message From: bjoenunley via KRnet 
>  Date:02/04/2015  8:07 PM  (GMT-06:00) 
> To: Dan via KRnet  Subject: 
> Re: KR> Flaps & Spoilers 
> Dan,
> 
> Very clever flaps and spoiler system. 
> 
> 
> Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone
> 
>  Original message From: Dan via KRnet  at list.krnet.org> Date:02/04/2015  6:17 PM  (GMT-06:00) 
> To: 'KRnet'  Subject: KR> 
> Flaps & Spoilers 
> I finally got around to posting a video on youtube of my flap and 
> spoiler
> system.  Check it out and watch it run.  Still have a little tweeking to do.
> 
> 
> 
> http://youtu.be/nGLz82kxDNY
> 
> 
> 
> Dan Prichard
> 
> Portland Oregon
> 
> ___
> Search the KRnet Archives at http://tugantek.com/archmailv2-kr/search.
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KR> Flaps & Spoilers

[bjoenunley]

Dan,

Very clever flaps and spoiler system.?


Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone

 Original message From: Dan via KRnet  Date:02/04/2015  6:17 PM  (GMT-06:00) To: 
'KRnet'  Subject: KR> Flaps & Spoilers 

I finally got around to posting a video on youtube of my flap and spoiler
system.  Check it out and watch it run.  Still have a little tweeking to do.



http://youtu.be/nGLz82kxDNY



Dan Prichard

Portland Oregon

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KR> Flaps & Spoilers

[Dan Prichard]

Peter,  there's a relay block and overload breaker unit that goes with the 
actuator. Plus I'll protect the circuit with a panel breaker. 
Haven't hooked up the springs yet on the spoilers. Trying to keep it all 
simple. At least from now on.   I'll start closing the wing next week. 

Dan Prichard
Portland Oregon

Sent from my iPhone

> On Feb 4, 2015, at 6:49 PM, Peter Johnson via KRnet  
> wrote:
> 
> Hi Dan.
> 
> Are you going to install an electric contact/reaker switch on the flap 
> screwjack?
> 
> Will you install a download spring to keep the spoilers down during slow 
> flight?
> 
> 
> Peter Johnson
> Kenora, Ontario
> 
> 
> - Original Message - From: "bjoenunley via KRnet"  list.krnet.org>
> To: "Dan via KRnet" 
> Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2015 8:07 PM
> Subject: Re: KR> Flaps & Spoilers
> 
> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> http://youtu.be/nGLz82kxDNY
> 
> 
> ___
> Search the KRnet Archives at http://tugantek.com/archmailv2-kr/search.
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KR> Flaps & Spoilers

[Dan]

I finally got around to posting a video on youtube of my flap and spoiler
system.  Check it out and watch it run.  Still have a little tweeking to do.



http://youtu.be/nGLz82kxDNY



Dan Prichard

Portland Oregon

KR> Flaps and Belly Board

[Oscar Zuniga]

Next time you're on a commercial airline flight, whether it's a commuter or 
long haul, examine the tray table mechanism as you raise and lower it.  Pay no 
attention to the fact that once the tray table is down, you can pull it towards 
you on some of them.  Just look at the raising/lowering mechanism.  The tray 
table on most airliners retracts flush into the seat back just like we want a 
flap to tuck into the bottom of a wing, and some of them follow a motion that 
is quite similar to a Fowler mechanism, where the leading edge is not simply 
hinged but it rides in and out on a track as the tray (flap) extends, 
increasing its deflection into the airstream.  By connecting a linkage to the 
leading edge of the flap, a linear fore-and-aft motion is converted into a 
sweeping arc of the flap as it extends on its tracks and arms. 
Am I suggesting that we look on eBay for some junked airliner seats and 
scavenge the tray tables off of them?  No, I'm not.  I'm simply saying that 
with a little ingenuity, a builder can create a flap mechanism that mimics a 
Fowler motion but still can use some relatively simple parts and assemblies.  
Using linear motion through an electric actuator or a mechanical flap handle 
and linkage, a Fowler-like action can be achieved.

Again, like the scissor-action speed brakes that I mentioned a few days ago, 
"just food for thought".  I can't help noticing things like this, especially 
when I'm stuck looking at them for hours at a time.

Oscar Zuniga
Medford, OR 

KR> Flaps and Belly Board

[bjoenunley]

Dan
I would like to hear more about the Honda window opener used to actuate your 
belly board!?
Joe



Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone

 Original message From: Dan via KRnet  Date:01/19/2015  7:29 PM  (GMT-06:00) To: 
'KRnet'  Subject: KR> Flaps and Belly Board 

Got the belly board on and operates as designed.  I've used a Honda window
opener for its light weight and torque.  Didn't realize a bucket got pushed
under the belly board when I was showing it off to my son.  Damn near picked
up the plane.  I'm satisfied with the power.  I've also been working on the
flap system. Should have started planning long ago.  Had to work around
control cables and aileron mechanism, but I think I've worked out those
kinks.  I decided to use a Fowler/Slotted flap like on the Cessna.  After
many mock ups and trashed Ideas I believe I've worked it out.  Using a
linear actuator with 4"s of travel that pushes the flap back fairly flat for
about 2"s before the drop to 45 degrees.  My daughter has done the cad work
for the tracks and I had them laser cut. I just started attaching foam to
the flap.  I'll post a few pics real soon.



Dan Prichard

Portland Oregon

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KR> Flaps and Belly Board

[Dan Prichard]

Reply to me at dprich01 at comcast.net and I'll send some photos. 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jan 19, 2015, at 5:34 PM, bjoenunley via KRnet  
> wrote:
> 
> Dan
> I would like to hear more about the Honda window opener used to actuate your 
> belly board! 
> Joe
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone
> 
>  Original message From: Dan via KRnet  at list.krnet.org> Date:01/19/2015  7:29 PM  (GMT-06:00) 
> To: 'KRnet'  Subject: KR> 
> Flaps and Belly Board 
> Got the belly board on and operates as designed.  I've used a Honda 
> window
> opener for its light weight and torque.  Didn't realize a bucket got pushed
> under the belly board when I was showing it off to my son.  Damn near picked
> up the plane.  I'm satisfied with the power.  I've also been working on the
> flap system. Should have started planning long ago.  Had to work around
> control cables and aileron mechanism, but I think I've worked out those
> kinks.  I decided to use a Fowler/Slotted flap like on the Cessna.  After
> many mock ups and trashed Ideas I believe I've worked it out.  Using a
> linear actuator with 4"s of travel that pushes the flap back fairly flat for
> about 2"s before the drop to 45 degrees.  My daughter has done the cad work
> for the tracks and I had them laser cut. I just started attaching foam to
> the flap.  I'll post a few pics real soon.
> 
> 
> 
> Dan Prichard
> 
> Portland Oregon
> 
> ___
> Search the KRnet Archives at http://tugantek.com/archmailv2-kr/search.
> To UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave at list.krnet.org
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> options

KR> Flaps and Belly Board

[Dan]

Got the belly board on and operates as designed.  I've used a Honda window
opener for its light weight and torque.  Didn't realize a bucket got pushed
under the belly board when I was showing it off to my son.  Damn near picked
up the plane.  I'm satisfied with the power.  I've also been working on the
flap system. Should have started planning long ago.  Had to work around
control cables and aileron mechanism, but I think I've worked out those
kinks.  I decided to use a Fowler/Slotted flap like on the Cessna.  After
many mock ups and trashed Ideas I believe I've worked it out.  Using a
linear actuator with 4"s of travel that pushes the flap back fairly flat for
about 2"s before the drop to 45 degrees.  My daughter has done the cad work
for the tracks and I had them laser cut. I just started attaching foam to
the flap.  I'll post a few pics real soon.



Dan Prichard

Portland Oregon

KR> Flaps versus belly board versus spoilers

[Mark Langford]

brian.kraut wrote:

> On my KR I planned on using flaps, but extending them all the way to the
> aft spar instead of just the 6-8" narrow flaps KRs normally have.  The
> reason the chord of the flaps was so small is to keep them from dragging
> on the ground with the short retract gear, but with modern KRs with long
> gear legs there is no reason no to extend the chord.  I don't think
> anyone has tried that before and I don't know why.

That sounds like what I did, except I upped the ante and made my flaps 
54" long  on each side and split!  See
http://www.n56ml.com/99101051.jpg for construction of the spar-length 
flaps and ailerons (http://www.n56ml.com/owings.html for more on wings) 
and http://www.n56ml.com/900hour/100727679.jpg for the finished flap.  I 
believe this is the ultimate setup, although next time I may use piano 
hinges to eliminate the hinges in the slipstream, and to speed 
construction considerably.  The big split flaps make a huge difference 
in drag and drop the stall speed by something like 7 mph.

I see Robert Pesak has done his in a similar way.

Mark Langford
ML at N56ML.com
http://www.n56ml.com

KR> Flaps versus belly board versus spoilers

[Phillip Matheson]

I have been using wider flaps since 2007. they work very well. I really use 
full flap.
http://www.philskr2.50megs.com/index.html
click on removing Diehl wing and flap section at top of the page.


The bottom few photos will show the flap hinges I made.

Phil Matheson

--
On my KR I planned on using flaps, but extending them all the way to the
aft spar instead of just the 6-8" narrow flaps KRs normally have.  The
reason the chord of the flaps was so small is to keep them from dragging
on the ground with the short retract gear, but with modern KRs with long
gear legs there is no reason no to extend the chord.  I don't think
anyone has tried that before and I don't know why.  I also had my center
section wing stubs extended a foot or so on both sides so I think they
would have been very effective
___
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KR> Flaps versus belly board versus spoilers

[Dan Heath]

Matt Elder has made some awesome flaps for his KR1 knock off, MEXL.



See N64KR at   http://KRBuilder.org - Then click on
the pics 



2015 KR Gathering - McMinnville, OR.  September 3 - 6 -- See U There.



Peoples Choice at 2013 - KR Gathering in Mt. Vernon, Il - MVN 

Best KR at 2013 - KR Gathering in Mt. Vernon, Il - MVN 

Best Interior at 2013 - KR Gathering in Mt. Vernon, Il - MVN 

Best Paint at 2013 - KR Gathering in Mt. Vernon, Il - MVN 

Best Firwwall Forward at 2013 - KR Gathering in Mt. Vernon, Il - MVN 



Best Interior and Panel at 2008 - KR Gathering in Mt. Vernon, Il - MVN





Daniel R. Heath - Lexington, SC

KR> Flaps versus belly board versus spoilers

[brian.kraut at eamanufacturing.com]

I have a Mustang 2 with the big flap that extends all the way under the
fusalage essentially making that portion a split flap.  The Nanchang
CJ-6 also uses this configuration.  I can say that it is very effective
on the Mustang 2.  Like the KR, it does not have a lot of span on the
center section between the fuselage and outer wing panels so flaps just
in that area would not be as effective.

On my KR I planned on using flaps, but extending them all the way to the
aft spar instead of just the 6-8" narrow flaps KRs normally have.  The
reason the chord of the flaps was so small is to keep them from dragging
on the ground with the short retract gear, but with modern KRs with long
gear legs there is no reason no to extend the chord.  I don't think
anyone has tried that before and I don't know why.  I also had my center
section wing stubs extended a foot or so on both sides so I think they
would have been very effective.  I also considered the full span
approach of the Mustang 2.  They would have a step down at the fusalage
since the trailing edge does not come all the way down to the bottom of
the fusalage, but shoule still be easy enough to make that.

 Original Message 
Subject: Re: KR> Flaps versus belly board versus spoilers
From: Chris Prata via KRnet 
List-Post: krnet@list.krnet.org
Date: Wed, January 14, 2015 2:23 pm
To: "krnet at list.krnet.org" 






H, is there room betyween the prop disc, and the ailerons, on a KR1?
I also wonder what a split condition would do, could the ailerons
overcome that?
As to the jets using them after touchdown, apparently they also use them
in flight. I found a youtube video of that, passenger was filing the
wing, and the spoilers came up at the back of the wing. The plane was
rumbling a bit. Must have been to slow down? 
Also, the B52 Bomber "America's diplomat in the skies" uses spoilers
instead of ailerons, IIRC.






> Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2015 12:43:50 -0800
> To: flesner at frontier.com; krnet at list.krnet.org
> Subject: Re: KR> Flaps versus belly board versus spoilers
> From: krnet at list.krnet.org
> 
> HI Larry,
> 
> Not sure what you mean by "the KR is not a design that call for spoilers"? 
> They definitely kill LIFT which takes care of the "floating problem" of the 
> KR.. They would work on any airplane when placed in the proper location.
> 
> I've got several Moni motorgliders which utilize them and they will float 
> like a KR if you don't use them. Originally a set of doors were installed on 
> both sides of the main wheel pant, but the most it did was cause a nose down 
> pitch attitude. Spoilers were the solution.
> 
> If you're using spoilers, you don't have to "point the nose down to dirty up 
> the air flow".. They will stop the wing from "flying" very effectively. In a 
> lot of cases you actually have to keep power in to cut down on the descent 
> rate to keep the plane flying.
> 
> I know there are other homebuilt designs using spoilers. One type raises up 
> out of the wing like a pair of scissors. The ones on my airplanes deploy like 
> a belly board except they are on top of the wing. You don't need very big 
> ones to kill the lift. Normally installed outside the prop diameter in the 
> root portion of the wing for best lift killing..
> 
> All these designs work well. You just need to figure out which one you want 
> to use, how easy they are to build/install and enjoy!
> 
> Just my .02.
> 
> Ron
> 
> 
> On Tue, 1/13/15, Flesner via KRnet  wrote:
> 
> Subject: Re: KR> Flaps versus belly board versus spoilers
> To: "KRnet" 
> Date: Tuesday, January 13, 2015, 6:11 PM
> 
> +++
> 
> Spoilers are used primarily on gliders to kill excess lift
> in order 
> to steepen the approach to landing and also on large
> commercial 
> aircraft to kill lift after touchdown to transfer the weight
> to the 
> landing gear. The KR is not a design that call for
> spoilers. The 
> only shortfall, if you can consider it a shortfall, is the
> need for 
> deployable drag in the landing approach. It is a very
> slick design 
> that makes speed control in landing a bit
> tricky. It will also 
> float after the flare if too much speed is carried on the
> approach.
> 
> Effective flaps or a speed brake are both proven solutions
> to speed 
> control on landings. The speed brake is probably the
> simplest to 
> build but effective flaps may offer other benefits beyond
> simply 
> adding drag. If you're building to fly, go with what's
> proven. If 
> you want to experiment and try new things, go for
> it.
> 
> Larry Flesner 
> 
&

KR> Flaps versus belly board versus spoilers

[Chris Prata]

somehow this message tripled. sorry...

From: chrisprata at live.com
To: krnet at list.krnet.org
Subject: RE: KR> Flaps versus belly board versus spoilers
List-Post: krnet@list.krnet.org
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2015 16:24:20 -0500









H, is there room betyween the prop disc, and the ailerons, on a KR1? I also 
wonder what a split condition would do, could the ailerons overcome that?
As to the jets using them after touchdown, apparently they also use them in 
flight. I found a youtube video of that, passenger was filing the wing, and the 
spoilers came up at the back of the wing. The plane was rumbling a bit. Must 
have been to slow down?  
Also, the B52 Bomber "America's diplomat in the skies" uses spoilers instead of 
ailerons, IIRC.






> Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2015 12:43:50 -0800
> To: flesner at frontier.com; krnet at list.krnet.org
> Subject: Re: KR> Flaps versus belly board versus spoilers
> From: krnet at list.krnet.org
> 
> HI Larry,
> 
> Not sure what you mean by "the KR is not a design that call for spoilers"?  
> They definitely kill LIFT which takes care of the "floating problem" of the 
> KR..  They would work on any airplane when placed in the proper location.
> 
> I've got several Moni motorgliders which utilize them and they will float 
> like a KR if you don't use them.  Originally a set of doors were installed on 
> both sides of the main wheel pant, but the most it did was cause a nose down 
> pitch attitude.  Spoilers were the solution.
> 
> If you're using spoilers, you don't have to "point the nose down to dirty up 
> the air flow"..  They will stop the wing from "flying" very effectively.  In 
> a lot of cases you actually have to keep power in to cut down on the descent 
> rate to keep the plane flying.
> 
> I know there are other homebuilt designs using spoilers.  One type raises up 
> out of the wing like a pair of scissors.  The ones on my airplanes deploy 
> like a belly board except they are on top of the wing.  You don't need very 
> big ones to kill the lift.  Normally installed outside the prop diameter in 
> the root portion of the wing for best lift killing..
> 
> All these designs work well.  You just need to figure out which one you want 
> to use, how easy they are to build/install and enjoy!
> 
> Just my .02.
> 
> Ron
> 
> 
> On Tue, 1/13/15, Flesner via KRnet  wrote:
> 
>  Subject: Re: KR> Flaps versus belly board versus spoilers
>  To: "KRnet" 
>  Date: Tuesday, January 13, 2015, 6:11 PM
>  
>  +++
>  
>  Spoilers are used primarily on gliders to kill excess lift
>  in order 
>  to steepen the approach to landing and also on large
>  commercial 
>  aircraft to kill lift after touchdown to transfer the weight
>  to the 
>  landing gear.  The KR is not a design that call for
>  spoilers.  The 
>  only shortfall, if you can consider it a shortfall, is the
>  need for 
>  deployable drag in the landing approach.  It is a very
>  slick design 
>  that makes speed control in landing  a bit
>  tricky.  It will also 
>  float after the flare if too much speed is carried on the
>  approach.
>  
>  Effective flaps or a speed brake are both proven solutions
>  to speed 
>  control on landings.  The speed brake is probably the
>  simplest to 
>  build but effective flaps may offer other benefits beyond
>  simply 
>  adding drag.  If you're building to fly, go with what's
>  proven.  If 
>  you want to experiment and try new things, go for
>  it.
>  
>  Larry Flesner 
>  
>  
>  ___
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>  please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
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>  
> 
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> options

KR> Flaps versus belly board versus spoilers

[Chris Prata]

H, is there room betyween the prop disc, and the ailerons, on a KR1? I also 
wonder what a split condition would do, could the ailerons overcome that?
As to the jets using them after touchdown, apparently they also use them in 
flight. I found a youtube video of that, passenger was filing the wing, and the 
spoilers came up at the back of the wing. The plane was rumbling a bit. Must 
have been to slow down?  
Also, the B52 Bomber "America's diplomat in the skies" uses spoilers instead of 
ailerons, IIRC.






> Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2015 12:43:50 -0800
> To: flesner at frontier.com; krnet at list.krnet.org
> Subject: Re: KR> Flaps versus belly board versus spoilers
> From: krnet at list.krnet.org
> 
> HI Larry,
> 
> Not sure what you mean by "the KR is not a design that call for spoilers"?  
> They definitely kill LIFT which takes care of the "floating problem" of the 
> KR..  They would work on any airplane when placed in the proper location.
> 
> I've got several Moni motorgliders which utilize them and they will float 
> like a KR if you don't use them.  Originally a set of doors were installed on 
> both sides of the main wheel pant, but the most it did was cause a nose down 
> pitch attitude.  Spoilers were the solution.
> 
> If you're using spoilers, you don't have to "point the nose down to dirty up 
> the air flow"..  They will stop the wing from "flying" very effectively.  In 
> a lot of cases you actually have to keep power in to cut down on the descent 
> rate to keep the plane flying.
> 
> I know there are other homebuilt designs using spoilers.  One type raises up 
> out of the wing like a pair of scissors.  The ones on my airplanes deploy 
> like a belly board except they are on top of the wing.  You don't need very 
> big ones to kill the lift.  Normally installed outside the prop diameter in 
> the root portion of the wing for best lift killing..
> 
> All these designs work well.  You just need to figure out which one you want 
> to use, how easy they are to build/install and enjoy!
> 
> Just my .02.
> 
> Ron
> 
> 
> On Tue, 1/13/15, Flesner via KRnet  wrote:
> 
>  Subject: Re: KR> Flaps versus belly board versus spoilers
>  To: "KRnet" 
>  Date: Tuesday, January 13, 2015, 6:11 PM
>  
>  +++
>  
>  Spoilers are used primarily on gliders to kill excess lift
>  in order 
>  to steepen the approach to landing and also on large
>  commercial 
>  aircraft to kill lift after touchdown to transfer the weight
>  to the 
>  landing gear.  The KR is not a design that call for
>  spoilers.  The 
>  only shortfall, if you can consider it a shortfall, is the
>  need for 
>  deployable drag in the landing approach.  It is a very
>  slick design 
>  that makes speed control in landing  a bit
>  tricky.  It will also 
>  float after the flare if too much speed is carried on the
>  approach.
>  
>  Effective flaps or a speed brake are both proven solutions
>  to speed 
>  control on landings.  The speed brake is probably the
>  simplest to 
>  build but effective flaps may offer other benefits beyond
>  simply 
>  adding drag.  If you're building to fly, go with what's
>  proven.  If 
>  you want to experiment and try new things, go for
>  it.
>  
>  Larry Flesner 
>  
>  
>  ___
>  Search the KRnet Archives at
>  http://tugantek.com/archmailv2-kr/search.
>  To UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave at list.krnet.org
>  please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
>  see http://list.krnet.org/mailman/listinfo/krnet_list.krnet.org
>  to change options
>  
> 
> ___
> Search the KRnet Archives at http://tugantek.com/archmailv2-kr/search.
> To UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave at list.krnet.org
> please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
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> options

KR> Flaps versus belly board versus spoilers

[Chris Prata]

H, is there room betyween the prop disc, and the ailerons, on a KR1? I also 
wonder what a split condition would do, could the ailerons overcome that?
As to the jets using them after touchdown, apparently they also use them in 
flight. I found a youtube video of that, passenger was filing the wing, and the 
spoilers came up at the back of the wing. The plane was rumbling a bit. Must 
have been to slow down?  
Also, the B52 Bomber "America's diplomat in the skies" uses spoilers instead of 
ailerons, IIRC.






> Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2015 12:43:50 -0800
> To: flesner at frontier.com; krnet at list.krnet.org
> Subject: Re: KR> Flaps versus belly board versus spoilers
> From: krnet at list.krnet.org
> 
> HI Larry,
> 
> Not sure what you mean by "the KR is not a design that call for spoilers"?  
> They definitely kill LIFT which takes care of the "floating problem" of the 
> KR..  They would work on any airplane when placed in the proper location.
> 
> I've got several Moni motorgliders which utilize them and they will float 
> like a KR if you don't use them.  Originally a set of doors were installed on 
> both sides of the main wheel pant, but the most it did was cause a nose down 
> pitch attitude.  Spoilers were the solution.
> 
> If you're using spoilers, you don't have to "point the nose down to dirty up 
> the air flow"..  They will stop the wing from "flying" very effectively.  In 
> a lot of cases you actually have to keep power in to cut down on the descent 
> rate to keep the plane flying.
> 
> I know there are other homebuilt designs using spoilers.  One type raises up 
> out of the wing like a pair of scissors.  The ones on my airplanes deploy 
> like a belly board except they are on top of the wing.  You don't need very 
> big ones to kill the lift.  Normally installed outside the prop diameter in 
> the root portion of the wing for best lift killing..
> 
> All these designs work well.  You just need to figure out which one you want 
> to use, how easy they are to build/install and enjoy!
> 
> Just my .02.
> 
> Ron
> 
> 
> On Tue, 1/13/15, Flesner via KRnet  wrote:
> 
>  Subject: Re: KR> Flaps versus belly board versus spoilers
>  To: "KRnet" 
>  Date: Tuesday, January 13, 2015, 6:11 PM
>  
>  +++
>  
>  Spoilers are used primarily on gliders to kill excess lift
>  in order 
>  to steepen the approach to landing and also on large
>  commercial 
>  aircraft to kill lift after touchdown to transfer the weight
>  to the 
>  landing gear.  The KR is not a design that call for
>  spoilers.  The 
>  only shortfall, if you can consider it a shortfall, is the
>  need for 
>  deployable drag in the landing approach.  It is a very
>  slick design 
>  that makes speed control in landing  a bit
>  tricky.  It will also 
>  float after the flare if too much speed is carried on the
>  approach.
>  
>  Effective flaps or a speed brake are both proven solutions
>  to speed 
>  control on landings.  The speed brake is probably the
>  simplest to 
>  build but effective flaps may offer other benefits beyond
>  simply 
>  adding drag.  If you're building to fly, go with what's
>  proven.  If 
>  you want to experiment and try new things, go for
>  it.
>  
>  Larry Flesner 
>  
>  
>  ___
>  Search the KRnet Archives at
>  http://tugantek.com/archmailv2-kr/search.
>  To UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave at list.krnet.org
>  please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
>  see http://list.krnet.org/mailman/listinfo/krnet_list.krnet.org
>  to change options
>  
> 
> ___
> Search the KRnet Archives at http://tugantek.com/archmailv2-kr/search.
> To UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave at list.krnet.org
> please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
> see http://list.krnet.org/mailman/listinfo/krnet_list.krnet.org to change 
> options

KR> Flaps versus belly board versus spoilers

[Chris Prata]

H, is there room betyween the prop disc, and the ailerons, on a KR1? I also 
wonder what a split condition would do, could the ailerons overcome that?
As to the jets using them after touchdown, apparently they also use them in 
flight. I found a youtube video of that, passenger was filing the wing, and the 
spoilers came up at the back of the wing. The plane was rumbling a bit. Must 
have been to slow down?  
Also, the B52 Bomber "America's diplomat in the skies" uses spoilers instead of 
ailerons, IIRC.






> Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2015 12:43:50 -0800
> To: flesner at frontier.com; krnet at list.krnet.org
> Subject: Re: KR> Flaps versus belly board versus spoilers
> From: krnet at list.krnet.org
> 
> HI Larry,
> 
> Not sure what you mean by "the KR is not a design that call for spoilers"?  
> They definitely kill LIFT which takes care of the "floating problem" of the 
> KR..  They would work on any airplane when placed in the proper location.
> 
> I've got several Moni motorgliders which utilize them and they will float 
> like a KR if you don't use them.  Originally a set of doors were installed on 
> both sides of the main wheel pant, but the most it did was cause a nose down 
> pitch attitude.  Spoilers were the solution.
> 
> If you're using spoilers, you don't have to "point the nose down to dirty up 
> the air flow"..  They will stop the wing from "flying" very effectively.  In 
> a lot of cases you actually have to keep power in to cut down on the descent 
> rate to keep the plane flying.
> 
> I know there are other homebuilt designs using spoilers.  One type raises up 
> out of the wing like a pair of scissors.  The ones on my airplanes deploy 
> like a belly board except they are on top of the wing.  You don't need very 
> big ones to kill the lift.  Normally installed outside the prop diameter in 
> the root portion of the wing for best lift killing..
> 
> All these designs work well.  You just need to figure out which one you want 
> to use, how easy they are to build/install and enjoy!
> 
> Just my .02.
> 
> Ron
> 
> 
> On Tue, 1/13/15, Flesner via KRnet  wrote:
> 
>  Subject: Re: KR> Flaps versus belly board versus spoilers
>  To: "KRnet" 
>  Date: Tuesday, January 13, 2015, 6:11 PM
>  
>  +++
>  
>  Spoilers are used primarily on gliders to kill excess lift
>  in order 
>  to steepen the approach to landing and also on large
>  commercial 
>  aircraft to kill lift after touchdown to transfer the weight
>  to the 
>  landing gear.  The KR is not a design that call for
>  spoilers.  The 
>  only shortfall, if you can consider it a shortfall, is the
>  need for 
>  deployable drag in the landing approach.  It is a very
>  slick design 
>  that makes speed control in landing  a bit
>  tricky.  It will also 
>  float after the flare if too much speed is carried on the
>  approach.
>  
>  Effective flaps or a speed brake are both proven solutions
>  to speed 
>  control on landings.  The speed brake is probably the
>  simplest to 
>  build but effective flaps may offer other benefits beyond
>  simply 
>  adding drag.  If you're building to fly, go with what's
>  proven.  If 
>  you want to experiment and try new things, go for
>  it.
>  
>  Larry Flesner 
>  
>  
>  ___
>  Search the KRnet Archives at
>  http://tugantek.com/archmailv2-kr/search.
>  To UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave at list.krnet.org
>  please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
>  see http://list.krnet.org/mailman/listinfo/krnet_list.krnet.org
>  to change options
>  
> 
> ___
> Search the KRnet Archives at http://tugantek.com/archmailv2-kr/search.
> To UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave at list.krnet.org
> please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
> see http://list.krnet.org/mailman/listinfo/krnet_list.krnet.org to change 
> options

KR> Flaps versus belly board versus spoilers

[Ronald Wright]

HI Larry,

Not sure what you mean by "the KR is not a design that call for spoilers"?  
They definitely kill LIFT which takes care of the "floating problem" of the 
KR..  They would work on any airplane when placed in the proper location.

I've got several Moni motorgliders which utilize them and they will float like 
a KR if you don't use them.  Originally a set of doors were installed on both 
sides of the main wheel pant, but the most it did was cause a nose down pitch 
attitude.  Spoilers were the solution.

If you're using spoilers, you don't have to "point the nose down to dirty up 
the air flow"..  They will stop the wing from "flying" very effectively.  In a 
lot of cases you actually have to keep power in to cut down on the descent rate 
to keep the plane flying.

I know there are other homebuilt designs using spoilers.  One type raises up 
out of the wing like a pair of scissors.  The ones on my airplanes deploy like 
a belly board except they are on top of the wing.  You don't need very big ones 
to kill the lift.  Normally installed outside the prop diameter in the root 
portion of the wing for best lift killing..

All these designs work well.  You just need to figure out which one you want to 
use, how easy they are to build/install and enjoy!

Just my .02.

Ron


On Tue, 1/13/15, Flesner via KRnet  wrote:

 Subject: Re: KR> Flaps versus belly board versus spoilers
 To: "KRnet" 
 Date: Tuesday, January 13, 2015, 6:11 PM

 +++

 Spoilers are used primarily on gliders to kill excess lift
 in order 
 to steepen the approach to landing and also on large
 commercial 
 aircraft to kill lift after touchdown to transfer the weight
 to the 
 landing gear.? The KR is not a design that call for
 spoilers.? The 
 only shortfall, if you can consider it a shortfall, is the
 need for 
 deployable drag in the landing approach.? It is a very
 slick design 
 that makes speed control in landing? a bit
 tricky.? It will also 
 float after the flare if too much speed is carried on the
 approach.

 Effective flaps or a speed brake are both proven solutions
 to speed 
 control on landings.? The speed brake is probably the
 simplest to 
 build but effective flaps may offer other benefits beyond
 simply 
 adding drag.? If you're building to fly, go with what's
 proven.? If 
 you want to experiment and try new things, go for
 it.

 Larry Flesner 


 ___
 Search the KRnet Archives at
 http://tugantek.com/archmailv2-kr/search.
 To UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave at list.krnet.org
 please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
 see http://list.krnet.org/mailman/listinfo/krnet_list.krnet.org
 to change options

KR> Flaps versus belly board versus spoilers

[Dan Heath]

http://krbuilder.org/BellyBoard/index.html

Best thing I ever did for my KR.  Don't leave home without it.


See N64KR at http://KRBuilder.org - Then click on the pics?

2015 KR Gathering - McMinnville, OR.  September 3 - 6 -- See U There.

Peoples Choice at 2013 - KR Gathering in Mt. Vernon, Il ? MVN 
Best KR at 2013 - KR Gathering in Mt. Vernon, Il ? MVN 
Best Interior at 2013 - KR Gathering in Mt. Vernon, Il ? MVN 
Best Paint at 2013 - KR Gathering in Mt. Vernon, Il ? MVN 
Best Firwwall Forward at 2013 - KR Gathering in Mt. Vernon, Il ? MVN 

Best Interior and Panel at 2008 ? KR Gathering in Mt. Vernon, Il - MVN


Daniel R. Heath -?Lexington, SC




-Original Message-

are there spoilers in use on any KR?  any pictures? experiences?

KR> Flaps versus belly board versus spoilers

[Virgil N.Salisbury]

 DUMBO had spoilers and a GAW (?)  airfoil. Check the Newsletters.
 I got into a WHOLE lot of trouble mentioning DUMBO before. It
 was built in Marietta (?) Georga, Virg


 On 1/13/2015 4:35 PM, chrisprata via KRnet wrote:
> Have spoilers been installed and used on a KR1?
>
> Where? Outer or inner wing? Do spoilers blanket ailerons with turbulent air?
>
> On apch, I wonder if you'd pull the nose up when spoilers deployed to create 
> a 'dirty' configuration?
>
> Anyone here running spoilers and or belly brake? Pics?
>
> Thx
>
>
> Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE Device
>
>  Original message From: bjoenunley via KRnet 
>  Date:01/13/2015  4:27 PM  (GMT-05:00) 
> To: Ronald Wright via KRnet  
> Subject: Re: KR> Flaps versus belly board versus spoilers 
> 
> 
> I like the spoiler concept. Easy to install. Between a belly board and 
> spoilers we should stop in a hurry.
>
> My question is; do we put holes in the spoilers to make them more efficient 
> or not?
>
> Just kidding about the holes,
>
> Joe
>
>
>
> Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone
>
>  Original message From: Ronald Wright via 
> KRnet  Date:01/13/2015  3:10 PM  
> (GMT-06:00) To: Chris Prata ,KRnet  at list.krnet.org> Subject: KR> Flaps versus belly board versus 
> spoilers 
> The KRs really need SPOILERS..  They are much better than flaps and a 
> lot easier to build/install.  Close a spoiler and you are instantly flying 
> again.  Dump a flap and you sink first and then get to climb again.  
> Personally, I love spoilers!
>
> Ron
>
>
>

KR> Flaps versus belly board versus spoilers

[Chris Prata]

are there spoilers in use on any KR?  any pictures? experiences?





> Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2015 18:11:08 -0600
> To: krnet at list.krnet.org
> Subject: Re: KR> Flaps versus belly board versus spoilers
> From: krnet at list.krnet.org
> 
> At 03:29 PM 1/13/2015, you wrote:
> >You shouldn't need a belly board if installing spoilers.  The 
> >spoilers will definitely stop any floating
> +++
> 
> Spoilers are used primarily on gliders to kill excess lift in order 
> to steepen the approach to landing and also on large commercial 
> aircraft to kill lift after touchdown to transfer the weight to the 
> landing gear.  The KR is not a design that call for spoilers.  The 
> only shortfall, if you can consider it a shortfall, is the need for 
> deployable drag in the landing approach.  It is a very slick design 
> that makes speed control in landing  a bit tricky.  It will also 
> float after the flare if too much speed is carried on the approach.
> 
> Effective flaps or a speed brake are both proven solutions to speed 
> control on landings.  The speed brake is probably the simplest to 
> build but effective flaps may offer other benefits beyond simply 
> adding drag.  If you're building to fly, go with what's proven.  If 
> you want to experiment and try new things, go for it.
> 
> Larry Flesner 
> 
> 
> ___
> Search the KRnet Archives at http://tugantek.com/archmailv2-kr/search.
> To UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave at list.krnet.org
> please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
> see http://list.krnet.org/mailman/listinfo/krnet_list.krnet.org to change 
> options

KR> Flaps versus belly board versus spoilers

[Flesner]

At 03:29 PM 1/13/2015, you wrote:
>You shouldn't need a belly board if installing spoilers.  The 
>spoilers will definitely stop any floating
+++

Spoilers are used primarily on gliders to kill excess lift in order 
to steepen the approach to landing and also on large commercial 
aircraft to kill lift after touchdown to transfer the weight to the 
landing gear.  The KR is not a design that call for spoilers.  The 
only shortfall, if you can consider it a shortfall, is the need for 
deployable drag in the landing approach.  It is a very slick design 
that makes speed control in landing  a bit tricky.  It will also 
float after the flare if too much speed is carried on the approach.

Effective flaps or a speed brake are both proven solutions to speed 
control on landings.  The speed brake is probably the simplest to 
build but effective flaps may offer other benefits beyond simply 
adding drag.  If you're building to fly, go with what's proven.  If 
you want to experiment and try new things, go for it.

Larry Flesner 

KR> Flaps versus belly board versus spoilers

[chrisprata]

Have spoilers been installed and used on a KR1?

Where? Outer or inner wing? Do spoilers blanket ailerons with turbulent air?

On apch, I wonder if you'd pull the nose up when spoilers deployed to create a 
'dirty' configuration?

Anyone here running spoilers and or belly brake? Pics?

Thx


Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE Device

 Original message From: bjoenunley via KRnet 
 Date:01/13/2015  4:27 PM  (GMT-05:00) 
To: Ronald Wright via KRnet  
Subject: Re: KR> Flaps versus belly board versus spoilers 

I like the spoiler concept. Easy to install. Between a belly board and spoilers 
we should stop in a hurry.

My question is; do we put holes in the spoilers to make them more efficient or 
not?

Just kidding about the holes,

Joe



Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone

 Original message From: Ronald Wright via KRnet 
 Date:01/13/2015  3:10 PM  (GMT-06:00) 
To: Chris Prata ,KRnet  Subject: KR> Flaps versus belly board versus 
spoilers 
The KRs really need SPOILERS..  They are much better than flaps and a lot 
easier to build/install.  Close a spoiler and you are instantly flying again.  
Dump a flap and you sink first and then get to climb again.  Personally, I love 
spoilers!

Ron



On Tue, 1/13/15, Chris Prata via KRnet  wrote:

Subject: Re: KR> TriGear?
To: "krnet at list.krnet.org" 
List-Post: krnet@list.krnet.org
Date: Tuesday, January 13, 2015, 2:11 PM

Flaps?  Are they fairly easy to
build in and are they effective?  Also wondering about
the Belly Brake option. This design is slippery, I'd love to
have another choice manage the energy on approach besides a
forward slip or slowing down way back at the start of
downwind. I'd rather have the energy the whole time, and be
able to brake on final.

From: danrh at windstream.net
To: chrisprata at live.com;
krnet at list.krnet.org
Subject: RE: KR> TriGear?
List-Post: krnet@list.krnet.org
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2015 05:59:25 -0500

You may be mistaken about the one less thing.  My
opinion is that it is one more thing to go wrong.  I
have never heard of a broken tail wheel causing a serious
accident, but certainly have heard of several where the nose
wheel broke.  A fixed gear KR1 would be a very simple
machine to fly, especially if you could add flaps. See N64KR
at http://KRBuilder.org - Then click on the pics
2015 KR Gathering - McMinnville, OR.  September 3 - 6
-- See U There. Peoples Choice at 2013 - KR Gathering in Mt.
Vernon, Il ? MVN Best KR at 2013 - KR Gathering in Mt.
Vernon, Il ? MVN Best Interior at 2013 - KR Gathering in
Mt. Vernon, Il ? MVN Best Paint at 2013 - KR Gathering in
Mt. Vernon, Il ? MVN Best Firwwall Forward at 2013 - KR
Gathering in Mt. Vernon, Il ? MVN  Best Interior and
Panel at 2008 ? KR Gathering in Mt. Vernon, Il - MVN
Daniel R. Heath - Lexington, SC  -Original
Message-

Trigear would mean one less thing that can go




___
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please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
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to change options

___
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options
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please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
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options

KR> Flaps versus belly board versus spoilers

[Joe Nunley]

I would place spoilers on the winglets to not interfere with control
surfaces.

Joe
On Jan 13, 2015 3:35 PM, "chrisprata via KRnet" 
wrote:

> Have spoilers been installed and used on a KR1?
>
> Where? Outer or inner wing? Do spoilers blanket ailerons with turbulent
> air?
>
> On apch, I wonder if you'd pull the nose up when spoilers deployed to
> create a 'dirty' configuration?
>
> Anyone here running spoilers and or belly brake? Pics?
>
> Thx
>
>
> Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE Device
>
>  Original message From: bjoenunley via
> KRnet  Date:01/13/2015  4:27 PM
> (GMT-05:00) To: Ronald Wright via KRnet 
> Subject: Re: KR> Flaps versus belly board versus spoilers
> 
> 
> I like the spoiler concept. Easy to install. Between a belly board and
> spoilers we should stop in a hurry.
>
> My question is; do we put holes in the spoilers to make them more
> efficient or not?
>
> Just kidding about the holes,
>
> Joe
>
>
>
> Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone
>
>  Original message From: Ronald Wright via
> KRnet  Date:01/13/2015  3:10 PM
> (GMT-06:00) To: Chris Prata ,KRnet <
> krnet at list.krnet.org> Subject: KR> Flaps versus belly board
> versus spoilers 
> The KRs really need SPOILERS..  They are much better than flaps and
> a lot easier to build/install.  Close a spoiler and you are instantly
> flying again.  Dump a flap and you sink first and then get to climb again.
> Personally, I love spoilers!
>
> Ron
>
>
> 
> On Tue, 1/13/15, Chris Prata via KRnet  wrote:
>
> Subject: Re: KR> TriGear?
> To: "krnet at list.krnet.org" 
> Date: Tuesday, January 13, 2015, 2:11 PM
>
> Flaps?  Are they fairly easy to
> build in and are they effective?  Also wondering about
> the Belly Brake option. This design is slippery, I'd love to
> have another choice manage the energy on approach besides a
> forward slip or slowing down way back at the start of
> downwind. I'd rather have the energy the whole time, and be
> able to brake on final.
>
> From: danrh at windstream.net
> To: chrisprata at live.com;
> krnet at list.krnet.org
> Subject: RE: KR> TriGear?
> Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2015 05:59:25 -0500
>
> You may be mistaken about the one less thing.  My
> opinion is that it is one more thing to go wrong.  I
> have never heard of a broken tail wheel causing a serious
> accident, but certainly have heard of several where the nose
> wheel broke.  A fixed gear KR1 would be a very simple
> machine to fly, especially if you could add flaps. See N64KR
> at http://KRBuilder.org - Then click on the pics
> 2015 KR Gathering - McMinnville, OR.  September 3 - 6
> -- See U There. Peoples Choice at 2013 - KR Gathering in Mt.
> Vernon, Il ? MVN Best KR at 2013 - KR Gathering in Mt.
> Vernon, Il ? MVN Best Interior at 2013 - KR Gathering in
> Mt. Vernon, Il ? MVN Best Paint at 2013 - KR Gathering in
> Mt. Vernon, Il ? MVN Best Firwwall Forward at 2013 - KR
> Gathering in Mt. Vernon, Il ? MVN  Best Interior and
> Panel at 2008 ? KR Gathering in Mt. Vernon, Il - MVN
> Daniel R. Heath - Lexington, SC  -Original
> Message-
>
> Trigear would mean one less thing that can go
>
>
>
>
> ___
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> http://tugantek.com/archmailv2-kr/search.
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KR> Flaps versus belly board versus spoilers

[bjoenunley]

I like the spoiler concept. Easy to install. Between a belly board and spoilers 
we should stop in a hurry.?

My question is; do we put holes in the spoilers to make them more efficient or 
not?

Just kidding about the holes,?

Joe



Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone

 Original message From: Ronald Wright via KRnet 
 Date:01/13/2015  3:10 PM  (GMT-06:00) 
To: Chris Prata ,KRnet  Subject: KR> Flaps versus belly board versus 
spoilers 
The KRs really need SPOILERS..  They are much better than flaps and a lot 
easier to build/install.  Close a spoiler and you are instantly flying again.  
Dump a flap and you sink first and then get to climb again.  Personally, I love 
spoilers!

Ron



On Tue, 1/13/15, Chris Prata via KRnet  wrote:

Subject: Re: KR> TriGear?
To: "krnet at list.krnet.org" 
List-Post: krnet@list.krnet.org
Date: Tuesday, January 13, 2015, 2:11 PM

Flaps?  Are they fairly easy to
build in and are they effective?  Also wondering about
the Belly Brake option. This design is slippery, I'd love to
have another choice manage the energy on approach besides a
forward slip or slowing down way back at the start of
downwind. I'd rather have the energy the whole time, and be
able to brake on final.

From: danrh at windstream.net
To: chrisprata at live.com;
krnet at list.krnet.org
Subject: RE: KR> TriGear?
List-Post: krnet@list.krnet.org
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2015 05:59:25 -0500

You may be mistaken about the one less thing.  My
opinion is that it is one more thing to go wrong.  I
have never heard of a broken tail wheel causing a serious
accident, but certainly have heard of several where the nose
wheel broke.  A fixed gear KR1 would be a very simple
machine to fly, especially if you could add flaps. See N64KR
at http://KRBuilder.org - Then click on the pics 
2015 KR Gathering - McMinnville, OR.  September 3 - 6
-- See U There. Peoples Choice at 2013 - KR Gathering in Mt.
Vernon, Il ? MVN Best KR at 2013 - KR Gathering in Mt.
Vernon, Il ? MVN Best Interior at 2013 - KR Gathering in
Mt. Vernon, Il ? MVN Best Paint at 2013 - KR Gathering in
Mt. Vernon, Il ? MVN Best Firwwall Forward at 2013 - KR
Gathering in Mt. Vernon, Il ? MVN  Best Interior and
Panel at 2008 ? KR Gathering in Mt. Vernon, Il - MVN 
Daniel R. Heath - Lexington, SC  -Original
Message-

Trigear would mean one less thing that can go 




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KR> Flaps versus belly board versus spoilers

[Ronald Wright]

You shouldn't need a belly board if installing spoilers.  The spoilers will 
definitely stop any floating..

Ron



On Tue, 1/13/15, bjoenunley via KRnet  wrote:

 Subject: Re: KR> Flaps versus belly board versus spoilers
 To: "Ronald Wright via KRnet" 
 Date: Tuesday, January 13, 2015, 3:26 PM

 I like the spoiler concept. Easy to
 install. Between a belly board and spoilers we should stop
 in a hurry.?

 My question is; do we put holes in the spoilers to make them
 more efficient or not?

 Just kidding about the holes,?

 Joe



 Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone

  Original message
 From: Ronald Wright via KRnet
 
 Date:01/13/2015? 3:10 PM?
 (GMT-06:00) To: Chris Prata ,KRnet
 
 Subject: KR> Flaps versus belly
 board versus spoilers 
 The KRs really need SPOILERS..? They are
 much better than flaps and a lot easier to
 build/install.? Close a spoiler and you are instantly
 flying again.? Dump a flap and you sink first and then
 get to climb again.? Personally, I love spoilers!

 Ron


 
 On Tue, 1/13/15, Chris Prata via KRnet 
 wrote:

 Subject: Re: KR> TriGear?
 To: "krnet at list.krnet.org"
 
 Date: Tuesday, January 13, 2015, 2:11 PM

 Flaps?? Are they fairly easy to
 build in and are they effective?? Also wondering about
 the Belly Brake option. This design is slippery, I'd love
 to
 have another choice manage the energy on approach besides a
 forward slip or slowing down way back at the start of
 downwind. I'd rather have the energy the whole time, and be
 able to brake on final.

 From: danrh at windstream.net
 To: chrisprata at live.com;
 krnet at list.krnet.org
 Subject: RE: KR> TriGear?
 Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2015 05:59:25 -0500

 You may be mistaken about the one less thing.? My
 opinion is that it is one more thing to go wrong.? I
 have never heard of a broken tail wheel causing a serious
 accident, but certainly have heard of several where the
 nose
 wheel broke.? A fixed gear KR1 would be a very simple
 machine to fly, especially if you could add flaps. See
 N64KR
 at http://KRBuilder.org - Then click on the pics 
 2015 KR Gathering - McMinnville, OR.? September 3 - 6
 -- See U There. Peoples Choice at 2013 - KR Gathering in
 Mt.
 Vernon, Il ? MVN Best KR at 2013 - KR Gathering in Mt.
 Vernon, Il ? MVN Best Interior at 2013 - KR Gathering in
 Mt. Vernon, Il ? MVN Best Paint at 2013 - KR Gathering in
 Mt. Vernon, Il ? MVN Best Firwwall Forward at 2013 - KR
 Gathering in Mt. Vernon, Il ? MVN? Best Interior and
 Panel at 2008 ? KR Gathering in Mt. Vernon, Il - MVN 
 Daniel R. Heath - Lexington, SC? -Original
 Message-

 Trigear would mean one less thing that can go 
 ???
 ? ? ? ? 
 ? ? ? ? ? 
 ? 
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KR> Flaps versus belly board versus spoilers

[Ronald Wright]

The KRs really need SPOILERS..  They are much better than flaps and a lot 
easier to build/install.  Close a spoiler and you are instantly flying again.  
Dump a flap and you sink first and then get to climb again.  Personally, I love 
spoilers!

Ron



On Tue, 1/13/15, Chris Prata via KRnet  wrote:

 Subject: Re: KR> TriGear?
 To: "krnet at list.krnet.org" 
 Date: Tuesday, January 13, 2015, 2:11 PM

 Flaps?? Are they fairly easy to
 build in and are they effective?? Also wondering about
 the Belly Brake option. This design is slippery, I'd love to
 have another choice manage the energy on approach besides a
 forward slip or slowing down way back at the start of
 downwind. I'd rather have the energy the whole time, and be
 able to brake on final.

 From: danrh at windstream.net
 To: chrisprata at live.com;
 krnet at list.krnet.org
 Subject: RE: KR> TriGear?
 Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2015 05:59:25 -0500

 You may be mistaken about the one less thing.? My
 opinion is that it is one more thing to go wrong.? I
 have never heard of a broken tail wheel causing a serious
 accident, but certainly have heard of several where the nose
 wheel broke.? A fixed gear KR1 would be a very simple
 machine to fly, especially if you could add flaps. See N64KR
 at http://KRBuilder.org - Then click on the pics?
 2015 KR Gathering - McMinnville, OR.? September 3 - 6
 -- See U There. Peoples Choice at 2013 - KR Gathering in Mt.
 Vernon, Il ? MVN Best KR at 2013 - KR Gathering in Mt.
 Vernon, Il ? MVN Best Interior at 2013 - KR Gathering in
 Mt. Vernon, Il ? MVN Best Paint at 2013 - KR Gathering in
 Mt. Vernon, Il ? MVN Best Firwwall Forward at 2013 - KR
 Gathering in Mt. Vernon, Il ? MVN? Best Interior and
 Panel at 2008 ? KR Gathering in Mt. Vernon, Il - MVN?
 Daniel R. Heath - Lexington, SC? -Original
 Message-

 Trigear would mean one less thing that can go?
 ???
 
 ?? ???
 ? 
 ___
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 http://tugantek.com/archmailv2-kr/search.
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KR> Flaps vs Bellyboard

[Tony King]

Except that flaps generally increase lift as well as drag.  As I understand
it a belly board only increases drag.

TK

On 16 September 2014 05:19, Mike Stirewalt via KRnet 
wrote:

> I think the bellyboard could technically be considered a "split flap".
>

KR> flaps v belly board

[Jeff Scott]

I always find it interesting that the thread titles in here end up being one 
thing vs another thing, like flap v belly board.

I'll grant you that building a belly board as an after thought is probably 
easier than building flaps.  My plane was down for 2 or 3 months while I added 
flaps, fairings, new tail, etc a number of years ago.  But to me it seems a bit 
odd that people aren't incorporating flaps into their newly built planes.  Mark 
L did so on his plane since his wings were a ground up design, but I know of no 
others.  I did so as an afterthought on mine.  But everyone else seems to be 
building them with belly boards, even when building from scratch.  

All things being equal, I've got to believe a installing flaps is the way to go 
during ground up construction.  After all, how many belly boards do you see on 
production aircraft?  OK, how many production aircraft have flaps?  Hmm.  
Nearly all of them are built flaps and I can't think of a single production 
aircraft that has a belly board. (No doubt someone will contradict me here, but 
you get the idea, the numbers are overwhelming.)  Wonder why?  If you've ever 
owned a Piper, you know that if it costs $.02 less to build one way vs the 
other, all other things being equal, William Piper would have built it the 
cheapest way possible.  So why is it that every Cherokee has flaps rather than 
a belly board?  Something to ponder...  Perhaps a performance advantage 
somewhere?

I seriously evaluated building a belly board and flaps before I cut into my 
plane to build them.  I went back and forth on the design for a while.  I 
finally concluded there was very little difference with the amount of work to 
construct them, and I could build the flaps to be cleaner when retracted, so I 
chose to go that route.  What others are doing usually has very little 
influence on my thinking other than to make me question my conclusions a second 
time before pressing on in my own direction.

So I'm not criticizing how people are constructing their planes.  I'm just 
asking "Why not incorporate flaps in the initial build?"  Especially for those 
of you that are planning for lots of HP and high speed?

-Jeff Scott
Los Alamos, NM

KR> flaps v belly board

[peter]

I think more effective flaps will require additional elevator authority at 
flare...if I remember correctly, usually flap deflection moves the center of 
lift forward (or was that aft?), thereby changing pitch-moment in a nose-down 
direction. Peter 

KR> flaps v belly board

[Dene]

Hi guys
I have not got to that stage yet but has anybody ever thought of joining the
two flaps to each other via a glass/carbon composite layup under the belly
of the plane.
That would create both a belly board and flaps with the benefits of both.
Stiffness of the bellyboard might be an issue as the bellyboard will not be
hinged and therefore un supported across its length.
Thoughts?
Dene Collett

-Original Message-
From: KRnet [mailto:krnet-bounces at list.krnet.org] On Behalf Of Flesner via
KRnet
Sent: Monday, September 15, 2014 14:39
To: KRnet
Subject: Re: KR> flaps v belly board


>Having read the ease of the Belly board construction I am wondering 
>if the complexity of installing flaps is worth while ? I am at the 
>point of finishing the stubs and starting flaps. Knowing what you 
>know about belly board vs flaps would you guys install flaps? Is the 
>additional low speed lift significant ?


+++

I'm guessing the standard flaps on a KR2 do not generate a great deal 
of lift or add significant drag on landing.  Any drag on landing is 
good on a KR.  No reason you can't have both.  I had given thought to 
flap that, with additional movement of the actuator, deployed a speed 
brake.  If your KR complete is less than 650 pounds, I'd go with just 
a speed brake.  IMHO

Larry Flesner


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KR> flaps v belly board

[Jeff Scott]

It should be noted that the "stock" flaps in the plans didn't generate a lot of 
drag or lift, but were better than nothing.  A belly board generates lots of 
drag, but not lift.  But a belly board is really a patch for the lack of 
planning for adequate flaps in the plans.

While I chose to add flaps to my plane after 500 hrs of flying without flaps, I 
was able to make the flaps larger than per plans due to my aileron bellcranks 
and cross cable being located in front of the rear spar rather than behind the 
rear spar.  That one change cascaded into a host of other changes and 
work-arounds, but did allow me to have a significantly longer cord to my flaps 
than what would normally be found on a KR.  My flaps do seem to generate 
adequate drag and add a small amount of lift reducing the stall speed 2 or 3 
mph.  IMHO, if your KR is really clean, either will be a significant help 
during landing.

-Jeff Scott
Los Alamos, NM

> 
> >Having read the ease of the Belly board construction I am wondering 
> >if the complexity of installing flaps is worth while ? I am at the 
> >point of finishing the stubs and starting flaps. Knowing what you 
> >know about belly board vs flaps would you guys install flaps? Is the 
> >additional low speed lift significant ?
> 
> +++
> 
> I'm guessing the standard flaps on a KR2 do not generate a great deal 
> of lift or add significant drag on landing.  Any drag on landing is 
> good on a KR.  No reason you can't have both.  I had given thought to 
> flap that, with additional movement of the actuator, deployed a speed 
> brake.  If your KR complete is less than 650 pounds, I'd go with just 
> a speed brake.  IMHO
> 
> Larry Flesner

KR> flaps v belly board

[brian.kraut at eamanufacturing.com]

I misspoke a bit on the Nanchang.  That is a split flap the whole way
across.  The Mustang 2 is more a conventional flap outboard of fusalage
and like a split flap under the fusalage.


 Original Message 
Subject: Re: KR> flaps v belly board
From: "brian.kraut--- via KRnet" 
List-Post: krnet@list.krnet.org
Date: Mon, September 15, 2014 5:38 pm
To: "Dene" , "KRnet" 

That is essentially what my Mustang 2 has. The plane was designed with
stub wings similar to the KR and a very long (I think about 10') flap. 
The flap extends a few feet out each side of the fusalage and is
essentially a belly board/split flap under the fusalage. It is very
effective for both additional lift and for drag. Works very well and I
would certainly think it would work great on a KR also.

Here are some pictures showing some different Mustang 2s with the flap
shown.

http://www.mustangaero.com/images/Album/Mustang%20II/Aircraft/Ariosto%20N12JA.jpg
http://www.mustangaero.com/images/Album/Mustang%20II/Aircraft/c-gfrh_1.jpg
http://www.mustangaero.com/images/Album/Mustang%20II/Aircraft/Dixon%20N91MD.jpg
http://www.mustangaero.com/images/Album/Mustang%20II/Aircraft/Koelzer%20M-II.jpg
http://www.mustangaero.com/images/Album/Mustang%20II/Aircraft/Porter%20N632JS.jpg

The Chinese Nanchang has the same arrangement also:

http://getcustomart.wordpress.com/2013/12/02/getcustomart-com-delivers-custom-nose-are-for-vintage-1969-nanchang-cj-6-chinese-trainer/






 Original Message 
Subject: Re: KR> flaps v belly board
From: Dene via KRnet 
List-Post: krnet@list.krnet.org
Date: Mon, September 15, 2014 10:06 am
To: "'Flesner'" , "'KRnet'" 

Hi guys
I have not got to that stage yet but has anybody ever thought of joining
the
two flaps to each other via a glass/carbon composite layup under the
belly
of the plane.
That would create both a belly board and flaps with the benefits of
both.
Stiffness of the bellyboard might be an issue as the bellyboard will not
be
hinged and therefore un supported across its length.
Thoughts?
Dene Collett

-Original Message-
From: KRnet [mailto:krnet-bounces at list.krnet.org] On Behalf Of Flesner
via
KRnet
Sent: Monday, September 15, 2014 14:39
To: KRnet
Subject: Re: KR> flaps v belly board


>Having read the ease of the Belly board construction I am wondering 
>if the complexity of installing flaps is worth while ? I am at the 
>point of finishing the stubs and starting flaps. Knowing what you 
>know about belly board vs flaps would you guys install flaps? Is the 
>additional low speed lift significant ?


+++

I'm guessing the standard flaps on a KR2 do not generate a great deal 
of lift or add significant drag on landing. Any drag on landing is 
good on a KR. No reason you can't have both. I had given thought to 
flap that, with additional movement of the actuator, deployed a speed 
brake. If your KR complete is less than 650 pounds, I'd go with just 
a speed brake. IMHO

Larry Flesner


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KR> flaps v belly board

[brian.kraut at eamanufacturing.com]

That is essentially what my Mustang 2 has.  The plane was designed with
stub wings similar to the KR and a very long (I think about 10') flap. 
The flap extends a few feet out each side of the fusalage and is
essentially a belly board/split flap under the fusalage.  It is very
effective for both additional lift and for drag.  Works very well and I
would certainly think it would work great on a KR also.

Here are some pictures showing some different Mustang 2s with the flap
shown.

http://www.mustangaero.com/images/Album/Mustang%20II/Aircraft/Ariosto%20N12JA.jpg
http://www.mustangaero.com/images/Album/Mustang%20II/Aircraft/c-gfrh_1.jpg
http://www.mustangaero.com/images/Album/Mustang%20II/Aircraft/Dixon%20N91MD.jpg
http://www.mustangaero.com/images/Album/Mustang%20II/Aircraft/Koelzer%20M-II.jpg
http://www.mustangaero.com/images/Album/Mustang%20II/Aircraft/Porter%20N632JS.jpg

The Chinese Nanchang has the same arrangement also:

http://getcustomart.wordpress.com/2013/12/02/getcustomart-com-delivers-custom-nose-are-for-vintage-1969-nanchang-cj-6-chinese-trainer/






 Original Message 
Subject: Re: KR> flaps v belly board
From: Dene via KRnet 
List-Post: krnet@list.krnet.org
Date: Mon, September 15, 2014 10:06 am
To: "'Flesner'" , "'KRnet'" 

Hi guys
I have not got to that stage yet but has anybody ever thought of joining
the
two flaps to each other via a glass/carbon composite layup under the
belly
of the plane.
That would create both a belly board and flaps with the benefits of
both.
Stiffness of the bellyboard might be an issue as the bellyboard will not
be
hinged and therefore un supported across its length.
Thoughts?
Dene Collett

-Original Message-
From: KRnet [mailto:krnet-bounces at list.krnet.org] On Behalf Of Flesner
via
KRnet
Sent: Monday, September 15, 2014 14:39
To: KRnet
Subject: Re: KR> flaps v belly board


>Having read the ease of the Belly board construction I am wondering 
>if the complexity of installing flaps is worth while ? I am at the 
>point of finishing the stubs and starting flaps. Knowing what you 
>know about belly board vs flaps would you guys install flaps? Is the 
>additional low speed lift significant ?


+++

I'm guessing the standard flaps on a KR2 do not generate a great deal 
of lift or add significant drag on landing. Any drag on landing is 
good on a KR. No reason you can't have both. I had given thought to 
flap that, with additional movement of the actuator, deployed a speed 
brake. If your KR complete is less than 650 pounds, I'd go with just 
a speed brake. IMHO

Larry Flesner


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KR> flaps v belly board

[brian.kraut at eamanufacturing.com]

Also, the original flap had a very short chord because anything bigger
would drag on the ground with the short retracts.  Almost everybody is
using taller gear today.  I had planned on bigger flaps that hinged
right off the aft spar.  They would have been much more effective than
the little 8-9" wide flaps the plans show.


 Original Message 
Subject: Re: KR> flaps v belly board
From: Jeff Scott via KRnet 
List-Post: krnet@list.krnet.org
Date: Mon, September 15, 2014 9:55 am
To: 'KRnet' 

It should be noted that the "stock" flaps in the plans didn't generate a
lot of drag or lift, but were better than nothing. A belly board
generates lots of drag, but not lift. But a belly board is really a
patch for the lack of planning for adequate flaps in the plans.

While I chose to add flaps to my plane after 500 hrs of flying without
flaps, I was able to make the flaps larger than per plans due to my
aileron bellcranks and cross cable being located in front of the rear
spar rather than behind the rear spar. That one change cascaded into a
host of other changes and work-arounds, but did allow me to have a
significantly longer cord to my flaps than what would normally be found
on a KR. My flaps do seem to generate adequate drag and add a small
amount of lift reducing the stall speed 2 or 3 mph. IMHO, if your KR is
really clean, either will be a significant help during landing.

-Jeff Scott
Los Alamos, NM

> 
> >Having read the ease of the Belly board construction I am wondering 
> >if the complexity of installing flaps is worth while ? I am at the 
> >point of finishing the stubs and starting flaps. Knowing what you 
> >know about belly board vs flaps would you guys install flaps? Is the 
> >additional low speed lift significant ?
> 
> +++
> 
> I'm guessing the standard flaps on a KR2 do not generate a great deal 
> of lift or add significant drag on landing. Any drag on landing is 
> good on a KR. No reason you can't have both. I had given thought to 
> flap that, with additional movement of the actuator, deployed a speed 
> brake. If your KR complete is less than 650 pounds, I'd go with just 
> a speed brake. IMHO
> 
> Larry Flesner

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KR> flaps v belly board

[Ed Janssen]

Huh?  I really can't be convinced of that.  The force of the air hitting the 
top of the gurney flap is a force downward on the back of the car - very 
little, if any, differential pressure is causing any significant downward 
force.  It's like saying that the shape of an airplane wing causes a "vacuum" 
of sorts on the upper surface, causing significant lift to make an airplane 
fly.  Sticking your hand out the window of a car while it's moving, and 
"flying" your hand in the wind is evidence of that.  The angle of incidence, 
relative to the wind, causes the wing to be pushed up from underneath.

Ed

Nerobro wrote,

You're putting a huge air dam under the plane.  This is essentially the
same as a gurney flap on the back of a stock car.  While the flap itself
isn't making downforce on the car, it's making the air under the wing, and
quite a distance out to either side of the flap pack up, and provide
greater differential pressure.

KR> flaps v belly board

[Nerobro]

You're putting a huge air dam under the plane.  This is essentially the
same as a gurney flap on the back of a stock car.  While the flap itself
isn't making downforce on the car, it's making the air under the wing, and
quite a distance out to either side of the flap pack up, and provide
greater differential pressure.

I wonder if the optimum position for a belly board is further back than
where a flap would normally hinge.

On Mon, Sep 15, 2014 at 12:40 PM, Mark Langford via KRnet <
krnet at list.krnet.org> wrote:

> Jeff Scott wrote:
>
> " A belly board generates lots of drag, but not lift"
>
> I thought this also, "common knowledge", I believe, and it may not be true
> "lift" that the belly board generates, but something makes drops the stall
> speed about 3 mph.  I proved this a few weeks ago while calibrating my
> stall
> speed on a very calm morning with board up and board down.  I did about
> five
> tests, and four yielded 3 mph, and one showed 2 mph.  Maybe it's just a
> "lift vector"...a reaction created by simply meeting the oncoming air at an
> angle,  or perhaps it changes AOA of the tail or whole airplane to lower
> drag, but whatever it is, it unloads the wing enough to drop the stall
> speed.  I was surprised, but that's what the testing shows.  It's also
> interesting that your flaps are on par with the belly board regarding stall
> speed improvement.
>
> To answer somebody else's question, it probably takes two to three times
> the
> effort to integrate the short "stock" flaps into the stub wings on a new
> build as opposed to installing a belly board, but that factor could climb
> dramatically if you're talking paint repair on an existing plane.
>
> Mark Langford, Harvest, AL
> ML at N56ML.com
> www.N56ML.com
>
>
>
>
> ___
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> please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
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> options
>

KR> flaps v belly board

[Mark Langford]

I wrote:

"...or perhaps it changes AOA of the tail or whole airplane to lower
drag..."

That's got to be the dumbest thing I've ever written, now that I think about
it...

Mark Langford, Harvest, AL
ML at N56ML.com
www.N56ML.com  

KR> flaps v belly board

[Mark Langford]

Jeff Scott wrote:

" A belly board generates lots of drag, but not lift"

I thought this also, "common knowledge", I believe, and it may not be true
"lift" that the belly board generates, but something makes drops the stall
speed about 3 mph.  I proved this a few weeks ago while calibrating my stall
speed on a very calm morning with board up and board down.  I did about five
tests, and four yielded 3 mph, and one showed 2 mph.  Maybe it's just a
"lift vector"...a reaction created by simply meeting the oncoming air at an
angle,  or perhaps it changes AOA of the tail or whole airplane to lower
drag, but whatever it is, it unloads the wing enough to drop the stall
speed.  I was surprised, but that's what the testing shows.  It's also
interesting that your flaps are on par with the belly board regarding stall
speed improvement.

To answer somebody else's question, it probably takes two to three times the
effort to integrate the short "stock" flaps into the stub wings on a new
build as opposed to installing a belly board, but that factor could climb
dramatically if you're talking paint repair on an existing plane.

Mark Langford, Harvest, AL
ML at N56ML.com
www.N56ML.com  

KR> Flaps vs Bellyboard

[laser147 at juno.com]

I think the bellyboard could technically be considered a "split flap". 
That's what the flaps are called on Cessna 310, 335 and 340 and DC-3's
and I'm sure some others - thinking of the Stuka and some of the Navy
WW-II planes.   They drop down from beneath the wing and fuselage.  

Mike
KSEE




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Click to Learn #1 Carb that Kills Your Blood Sugar Dont Eat This!
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KR> flaps v belly board

[samantha toner]

Having read the ease of the Belly board construction I am wondering if the 
complexity of?installing flaps is worth while ? I am at the point of finishing 
the stubs and starting flaps. Knowing what you know about?belly board vs flaps 
would you guys?install flaps? Is the?additional low speed lift significant ? I 
am building a standard S Thanks Mark?

KR> flaps v belly board

[Flesner]

>Having read the ease of the Belly board construction I am wondering 
>if the complexity of installing flaps is worth while ? I am at the 
>point of finishing the stubs and starting flaps. Knowing what you 
>know about belly board vs flaps would you guys install flaps? Is the 
>additional low speed lift significant ?

+++

I'm guessing the standard flaps on a KR2 do not generate a great deal 
of lift or add significant drag on landing.  Any drag on landing is 
good on a KR.  No reason you can't have both.  I had given thought to 
flap that, with additional movement of the actuator, deployed a speed 
brake.  If your KR complete is less than 650 pounds, I'd go with just 
a speed brake.  IMHO

Larry Flesner

KR> flaps v belly board

[Paul Visk]

The way I think of it is. It's an airplane. Airplanes have flaps. Especially 
planes that can go 200 miles an hour. Also, ?you never have to explain why your 
airplane has flaps.?
Look at the way Jeff made his. That's the way I'm doing it.?

Paul Visk
Belleville Il
618 406 4705

Sent on the new Sprint Network from my Samsung Galaxy S?4. 
Original message From: samantha toner via KRnet  Date:09/15/2014  2:22 AM  (GMT-06:00) To: 
KRnet  Subject: KR> flaps v belly board 

 Original message 
From: samantha toner via KRnet
List-Post: krnet@list.krnet.org
Date:09/15/2014 2:22 AM (GMT-06:00)
To: KRnet
Subject: KR> flaps v belly board

Having read the ease of the Belly board construction I am wondering if the 
complexity of installing flaps is worth while ? I am at the point of finishing 
the stubs and starting flaps. Knowing what you know about belly board vs flaps 
would you guys install flaps? Is the additional low speed lift significant ? I 
am building a standard S Thanks Mark 
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KR> Flaps

[david]

Built mine per plans. First flight 1984, 1476.5 hours logged to date.  30, 45, 
and 90 degree deployment. In the 90 degree position its awfully close to terra 
firma, so ?30? in the pattern, ?45? short final, and ?90? if I?m too hot.  I 
learned decades ago earning my ticket in a Piper Warrior that flaps adds a 
little stability at low airspeed, and you can see down the runway a little 
longer during the final flare.

Real pilots drag their tail!

KR> Flaps Effectiveness?

[Virgil N. Salisbury]

Remind me of the auto repair shop I go to! You can have the repair,

Good, Fast ,Cheep. Pick any two. After reading this list for a while,
I think that  all of the questions have been answered. It is now up to
you to evaluate for yourself if this is the project for you, Virg


Phillip E Harrison wrote:
> This is my first entry into discussion here. I have a KR2 kit (thanks Steve)
> and have been looking to see what mods I would consider with both the
> Airframe and Corvair engine.
>   For me two things are fundamental and control the decision
> process.1-the rule of KISS and 2-an inclination towards maximum flexibility
> and control. So for me it comes down to - is it safe, simple and useful in
> that order. 
>   Any design change that increases safety, controllability and use of
> is within pilot capability is a good choice to me.
>
>   

Fw: KR> Flaps Effectiveness?

[Patrick and Robin Russo]

- Original Message - 
From: "David Russo" <davru...@comcast.net>
To: "'Patrick and Robin Russo'" <patru...@myfairpoint.net>
Sent: Saturday, August 21, 2010 8:46 PM
Subject: RE: KR> Flaps Effectiveness?


> That sounds right, but you could equally make the plane stall with flaps 
> up
> in a 3 point attitude with minor changes.  Also one doesn't want to stall
> and hit the mains first as it causes porposing and lots of control 
> problems.
> Hitting tail first is preferable.  In several Pipers I've flown that have 
> no
> flaps, if you try to do a full-stall landing, the tailwheel hits first.
> Some airplanes tend to roll rapidly during a stall so setting the landing 
> a
> few knots higher than stall speed isn't a bad idea.  Don't forget the
> influence of ground effect on low-wing airplanes, effect of weight and CG
> position on stall speed (it is a significant difference), and control
> authority and so-on.  And if everything is still the way it was designed.
> The possibilities are varied and almost endless. We can strive to design 
> the perfect plane or learn to fly the existing one. 

KR> Flaps Effectiveness?

[Phillip E Harrison]

This is my first entry into discussion here. I have a KR2 kit (thanks Steve)
and have been looking to see what mods I would consider with both the
Airframe and Corvair engine.
For me two things are fundamental and control the decision
process.1-the rule of KISS and 2-an inclination towards maximum flexibility
and control. So for me it comes down to - is it safe, simple and useful in
that order. 
Any design change that increases safety, controllability and use of
is within pilot capability is a good choice to me.

-Original Message-
From: krnet-boun...@mylist.net [mailto:krnet-boun...@mylist.net] On Behalf
Of Mark Langford
Sent: Friday, August 20, 2010 10:44 PM
To: KRnet
Subject: Re: KR> Flaps Effectiveness?

Scott Black wrote:

> The other advantage to flaps on many tailwheel airplanes is that it allows
> the airplane to actually stall in the 3 pt attitude.

Excellent point, and I've had to relearn how to land my plane since I 
doubled my flap deflection angle.  Just ask Jeff Lange, who was onboard for 
my third landing since that mod!  Despite those screwups, I now grease a lot

more landings, and it's funny how what used to be minimum speed has now 
become "too hot".  That reminds me that speed control is everything in the 
world of landing KRs.  Trying to force it down on a short runway is never a 
good idea, but when you arrive at the right speed, you're done flying and 
it's a total non-event.  Folks who are considering flying into a short 
"one-way" field with trees on the far end are advised that landing distance 
is easily double or triple the takeoff distance.  On a short sod strip with 
obstacles on the far end, a go-around may not be an option at all.  I spent 
three months on a long runway perfecting landings before I got up the nerve 
to fly into my short field, and even then I almost had to ground loop it on 
the first landing.  I'm substantially better than that now, but that's only 
after over 2000 landings on my plane.  And I have huge flaps!

Late today was super smooth, so I took the opportunity to do a wide open 
flyby at about 220 mph about 20' off the runway.  What a blast...

Mark Langford
N56ML "at" hiwaay.net
website at http://www.N56ML.com
 


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KR> Flaps Effectiveness?

[laser...@juno.com]

I've got a drag flap that only goes down 30º or so, but it's better than
nothing.  Flaps would be great and I'd like to have them, but as Mark
says, speed control is everything.  Cross the fence at 70 or below and
you'll have no trouble with 2500' strips, flaps or not.  No brakes.  I'd
think a sod or grass strip would be even easier for landing short.  We
don't have many sod or grass strips out here in SoCal unfortunately.

Mike
KSEE




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100% Online Programs in Negotiation Leadership and Mgmt. Enroll Today!
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/4c702318df62e12e610m04vuc

KR> Flaps Effectiveness?

[Mark Langford]

Scott Black wrote:

> The other advantage to flaps on many tailwheel airplanes is that it allows
> the airplane to actually stall in the 3 pt attitude.

Excellent point, and I've had to relearn how to land my plane since I 
doubled my flap deflection angle.  Just ask Jeff Lange, who was onboard for 
my third landing since that mod!  Despite those screwups, I now grease a lot 
more landings, and it's funny how what used to be minimum speed has now 
become "too hot".  That reminds me that speed control is everything in the 
world of landing KRs.  Trying to force it down on a short runway is never a 
good idea, but when you arrive at the right speed, you're done flying and 
it's a total non-event.  Folks who are considering flying into a short 
"one-way" field with trees on the far end are advised that landing distance 
is easily double or triple the takeoff distance.  On a short sod strip with 
obstacles on the far end, a go-around may not be an option at all.  I spent 
three months on a long runway perfecting landings before I got up the nerve 
to fly into my short field, and even then I almost had to ground loop it on 
the first landing.  I'm substantially better than that now, but that's only 
after over 2000 landings on my plane.  And I have huge flaps!

Late today was super smooth, so I took the opportunity to do a wide open 
flyby at about 220 mph about 20' off the runway.  What a blast...

Mark Langford
N56ML "at" hiwaay.net
website at http://www.N56ML.com
 

KR> Flaps Effectiveness?

[Scott Black]

The other advantage to flaps on many tailwheel airplanes is that it allows 
the airplane to actually stall in the 3 pt attitude. The stall angle reduces 
with respect to the aircraft datum. My Jodel and the Cessna 140 I fly both 
enjoy this advantage. With 0 flap neither are stalled in the 3 pt attitude 
and they like to bounce if you don't get everything just right, or if you 
get to slow you can bash the tailwheel first. Flaps are great - I am sold on 
them, especially for short field work. 

KR> Flaps Effectiveness?

[Mark Langford]

Dave Dunwoodie wrote:

> It would be interesting to know how effective the tiny flaps are, from 
> several KR2 owners.

I'm probably not qualified to answer this, since mine's not a KR2, and my 
flaps aren't the "tiny" ones.  But Ken Rand was quoted as saying something 
like "I didn't know I needed flaps until after I installed them!".  I've 
heard Orma Robbins swear they made a worthy difference, and he installed 
them after he'd flown for some time without them.  Mine are something like 
54" long and are quite effective, as you might suspect, and the pitch change 
is way more than my little trim tab can handle.  I built my trim tab small 
because I thought I'd have the plane quite sorted out when it flew, but I 
didn't consider the effects of full flaps.

Some folks swear flaps are useless and you can do everything you really need 
by slipping it on approach.  My only comment on that is consider flaps AND 
slipping it with full rudder, which is how I do almost all of my landings at 
my 2600' long airport's runway.

I did some flying today testing a G-meter that Oscar Zuniga sent me, testing 
the air flow through my oil cooler, and my recently repaired altimeter. 
There was a decent sunset, but no clouds, so nothing worthy of an addition 
to the sunset webpage.  No progress on the plane otherwise, so it'll look 
just like it did at OSH (hideous) at the Gathering...

Mark Langford
N56ML "at" hiwaay.net
website at http://www.N56ML.com
-- 

KR> Flaps Effectiveness?

[Dave Dunwoodie]

I have a standard KR2 and haven't flown it yet.

It would be interesting to know how effective the tiny flaps are, from 
several KR2 owners.  Also, knowing resultant pitch changes in Cessnas 
and Pipers, what does the KR2 do when flaps are deployed?

I would like to know how short fields are dealt with, especially short 
turf strips - 2000-3000 feet.  Should one use flaps for takeoff, and if 
so, what do most of you use???  I use 1 or 2 notches in my Warrior, and 
am wondering how I should deal with the KR2???

Again, I'd like to hear about trim when flaps are deployed, and how 
effective they really are.

Thanks!

Dave.

Réf. : Re: Réf. : KR> Flaps

[Serge VIDAL]

Yesterday, I thought of something even easier. Why not:

1 - Cut a plug (made of Aluminum or Nylon) that will slip in the end of 
the tube, with a protrusion;
2 - Cut an aluminum L-shaped part to make the horn; one leg of that part 
will be horn, and the other leg part will be rivetted to the tube and the 
plug, thereby holding the plug in place; The L-shaped will have a hole 
that will match the protrusion, thereby preventing any rotational motion.

In other words, the horn would be simple plates affixed against each end 
of the torque tube, and these plates would be retained two ways: by having 
a perpendicular leg rivetted to the tube, and by having a protrusion from 
a plug inside the tube going through them. 

I ain't no mechanical stress expert, but my feeling is that would be 
sturdy enough. And it would definitely be the easiest, lightest and less 
bulky solution I could make without welding. 

Actually, thinking of it, the protrusion could be made man ways:
- Either simply letting the plug step outside the tube (big hole in the 
horn, then)
- Or milling the plug to a smaller diameter (smaller hole in the horn)
- Or drilling a hole through the plug and fitting a large rivet in (would 
probably need a couple washers to make the the protrusion thick enough)
- Or putting a screw and nut through the plug.

Hmm! Can't wait to sneak in my clandestine workshop in the cellar to 
experiment with that!

Serge Vidal
KR2 "Kilimanjaro Cloud"
Paris, France






"Larry H." <lah...@yahoo.com>

Envoyé par : krnet-boun...@mylist.net
23/08/2006 19:55
Veuillez répondre à KRnet
Remis le : 23/08/2006 19:56


Pour :  KRnet <kr...@mylist.net>
cc :(ccc : Serge VIDAL/DNSA/SAGEM)
Objet : Re: Réf. : KR> Flaps



I am not sure if someone has already said this, I think they may have but 
if you take a piece of square tubing that will slip over the torque tube 
for the plaps, then take a piece of angle rivet onto one side of the 
square tubing and the other side of the angle will cover the end of the 
square tubing and round tubing inside of it. You could rivet the angle to 
the square tubing on the one side in each corner of the square tubing 
where the round tubing will not hit the rivets then bolt through the 
angle, square tubing and round tubing.
  Hope this makes sense.
  Larry H.

Serge VIDAL <serge.vi...@sagem.com> wrote:
  What use were they sold for, exactly? (what application)

Serget





"Wood, Sidney M (Titan) @ TITAN" 
Envoyé par : krnet-boun...@mylist.net
22/08/2006 22:39
Veuillez répondre à KRnet
Remis le : 22/08/2006 22:39


Pour : 
cc : (ccc : Serge VIDAL/DNSA/SAGEM)
Objet : KR> Flaps



My KR-2 has 6061 aluminum flanges for the flap bellcranks. I found them 
in the local True Value Hardware store.
I drilled a 3/16-inch hole through the flange and ¾-inch aluminum tube to 
bolt them in place.

Sid Wood
KR-2 N6242
Mechanicsville, MD, USA

That is pretty much what I have in mind, except I would like to find (or 
make) an aluminum flange to replace the clamp collars, then glue AND rivet 


that flange to both the torque tube and the bellcranks. The tube stops 
could be made the same way.

Serge Vidal
KR2 "Kilimanjaro Cloud"
Paris, France

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" Ce courriel et les documents qui y sont attachés peuvent contenir des 
informations confidentielles. Si vous n'êtes  pas le destinataire escompté, 
merci d'en informer l'expéditeur 

R�f. : Re: R�f. : KR> Flaps

[Larry H.]

Hi Serge,
  I looked at my post and I don't think I phrased it very clearly. The angle 
that I was referring to is the horn/lever. My thoughts were that the square 
tubing would give a flat surface to attach your L shaped horn part to. This way 
the L shaped horn could be attached to the square tubing in three places. 
Looking at the square tubing from an end view, you could have rivets left and 
right corner (of square tubing) attaching the L angle down to the square 
tubing-right in the corners for example. When you slipped this square tubing 
over the round tubing the rivets that are in the two corners of the square may 
clear the round tubing as you slip it onto the round torque tube. Then drill a 
hole through all the parts to attach with a bolt onto the flap torque tube. 
This way you will have the attachment in double shear, except for the L shaped 
horn. It will only have the bolt through one side of it but it will have the 
flat surface of the square tubing for a stronger twisting
 moment plus the extra rivets holding it in place on each side of the bolt 
going through the center of the square tubing and the round torque tube. If you 
use round tubing to attach the L shaped horn/lever arm then you will have a 
greater twisting moment on the bolt. This is where welding a lever onto a round 
tubing comes in handy.
  I know Vans aircraft had a few problems with their flap levers many years 
ago. There were several of the RV6 series that had one side of the airplanes 
flap lever arm break which made for a serious situation. When the flaps were 
fully extended and the lever arm attachment broke on one side, of course it 
would roll the airplane immediately. I can't remember if anyone got hurt but if 
you were close to the runway when this happened, it may cause a bad day. You 
want to make sure that whatever you come up with is very strong. I like the 
idea of putting small aircraft bolts through the lever torque tube to take the 
shearing stresses that will occur rather than a rivet.
  Larry H.

Serge VIDAL <serge.vi...@sagem.com> wrote:
  Yesterday, I thought of something even easier. Why not:

1 - Cut a plug (made of Aluminum or Nylon) that will slip in the end of 
the tube, with a protrusion;
2 - Cut an aluminum L-shaped part to make the horn; one leg of that part 
will be horn, and the other leg part will be rivetted to the tube and the 
plug, thereby holding the plug in place; The L-shaped will have a hole 
that will match the protrusion, thereby preventing any rotational motion.

In other words, the horn would be simple plates affixed against each end 
of the torque tube, and these plates would be retained two ways: by having 
a perpendicular leg rivetted to the tube, and by having a protrusion from 
a plug inside the tube going through them. 

I ain't no mechanical stress expert, but my feeling is that would be 
sturdy enough. And it would definitely be the easiest, lightest and less 
bulky solution I could make without welding. 

Actually, thinking of it, the protrusion could be made man ways:
- Either simply letting the plug step outside the tube (big hole in the 
horn, then)
- Or milling the plug to a smaller diameter (smaller hole in the horn)
- Or drilling a hole through the plug and fitting a large rivet in (would 
probably need a couple washers to make the the protrusion thick enough)
- Or putting a screw and nut through the plug.

Hmm! Can't wait to sneak in my clandestine workshop in the cellar to 
experiment with that!

Serge Vidal
KR2 "Kilimanjaro Cloud"
Paris, France






"Larry H." 

Envoyé par : krnet-boun...@mylist.net
23/08/2006 19:55
Veuillez répondre à KRnet
Remis le : 23/08/2006 19:56


Pour : KRnet 
cc : (ccc : Serge VIDAL/DNSA/SAGEM)
Objet : Re: Réf. : KR> Flaps



I am not sure if someone has already said this, I think they may have but 
if you take a piece of square tubing that will slip over the torque tube 
for the plaps, then take a piece of angle rivet onto one side of the 
square tubing and the other side of the angle will cover the end of the 
square tubing and round tubing inside of it. You could rivet the angle to 
the square tubing on the one side in each corner of the square tubing 
where the round tubing will not hit the rivets then bolt through the 
angle, square tubing and round tubing.
Hope this makes sense.
Larry H.

Serge VIDAL wrote:
What use were they sold for, exactly? (what application)

Serget





"Wood, Sidney M (Titan) @ TITAN" 
Envoyé par : krnet-boun...@mylist.net
22/08/2006 22:39
Veuillez répondre à KRnet
Remis le : 22/08/2006 22:39


Pour : 
cc : (ccc : Serge VIDAL/DNSA/SAGEM)
Objet : KR> Flaps



My KR-2 has 6061 aluminum flanges for the flap bellcranks. I found them 
in the local True Value Hardware store.
I drilled a 3/16-inch hole through the flange and ¾-inch aluminum tube to 
bolt them in place.

Sid Wood
KR-2 N6242
Mechanicsville, MD, USA

That is pretty much what I have in mind, except I

KR> Flaps

[Kenneth Wiltrout]

I used 3/16 AL-Put a 1/4" plywood doubler on the bottom of the fuse 
directly behind the rear spar, that stiffened everything up and gave me a 
good mounting point for the hinge. My board and mechanism was my design, it 
works like a mouse trap, spring loaded in the up position at all times, that 
way all u need is a 1 way flap handle setup.


- Original Message - 
From: "Dan Heath" <da...@alltel.net>
To: <kr...@mylist.net>
Sent: Friday, August 18, 2006 10:00 PM
Subject: Re: KR> Flaps


> What metal did you use and how did you attach the board?
>
> See N64KR at http://KRBuilder.org - Then click on the pics
> See you in Mt. Vernon - 2006 - KR Gathering
> There is a time for building and a time for FLYING and the time for 
> building
> is OVER.
> Daniel R. Heath - Lexington, SC
> ---Original Message---
>
> From: Kenneth Wiltrout
> Date: 08/18/06 21:20:19
> To: KRnet
> Subject: Re: KR> Flaps
>
> I used an extruded alum hinge flush mounted and had the metal shop put a
> very slight arc in the belly board to conform to the belly of the plane, 
> my
> speed did not change at all by not fairing it in. Just not sure it is
> necessary with the air flow etc. One thing I wish I would have done was 
> try
> the board before adding the lightening holes, maybe i'll put duct tape 
> over
> the holes for a test.
>
> Ken Wiltrout
> Kutztown, Pa
>
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Larry Flesner" <fles...@verizon.net>
> To: <b...@flyboybob.com>; "KRnet" <kr...@mylist.net>
> Sent: Friday, August 18, 2006 6:38 PM
> Subject: RE: KR> Flaps
>
>
>> At 04:47 PM 8/18/2006, you wrote:
>>>I have been reading this thread on flaps and nobody has mentioned one
>>>extremely important factor.
>>>  Dan made a
>>>special point to show me the differance in approach attitude with and
>>>without flaps.  The most important factor in using the "stock" flaps
>>>according to Dan was that they lower the nose so that you can see where
>>>you
>>>are going to land.
>>>Bob Lee
>> +++
>>
>> I guess my statement:
>>
>> "The entire runway, including the touchdown point are visible
>> over the nose in my KR right down to the flare."
>>
>> didn't state it clearly enough.  That's exactly what happens when
>> I lower the speed brake.  I actually get a "nose up" pitching movement
>> when I lower the brake and I have to trim considerable nose down
>> to keep the speed up.  My approach to landing visibility is as good
>> as in a C-172.  I'm still convinced that the speed brake is the easiest
>> to acquire drag available when you consider building complexity.  As
>> for faring in a belly board, how much work is there to building a 1/4 
>> inch
>> ramp on the lead and trail edge of the board that conforms to the shape
>> of the fuselage?
>>
>> Larry Flesner
>>
>>
>>
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>
>
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> 

KR> Flaps / speed brake

[Larry Flesner]

At 06:38 AM 8/19/2006, you wrote:
>I used 3/16 AL-Put a 1/4" plywood doubler on the bottom of the fuse
>directly behind the rear spar, that stiffened everything up and gave me a
>good mounting point for the hinge. My board and mechanism was my design, it
>works like a mouse trap, spring loaded in the up position at all times, that
>way all u need is a 1 way flap handle setup.
>Kenneth Wiltrout
++

A piece of 1/4 inch foam will work and save some weight.  Mine is
9X30 inches with a piece of 1/4 inch spruce in the lead edge for
the hinge and a small block in the push-down rod attach area.
I placed a strip of 1/4 inch spruce on the fuselage floor just behind
the rear spar like Ken and used the "wood washers" with 5 each
3/16" bolts to attach the hinge.  If you weight the foam when the
glass is wet you can get it to conform to the shape of the fuselage
bottom.  I tapered my board at the edges on three sides to fare in to
the fuselage and built a small air ramp to fare in the lead edge and
hinge.  My single jack screw push down is slightly off center to allow
for the elevator cables routing.  I placed a number of 3/4" holes
across the board in several rows for additional drag.  I regularly
lower the board a 110 mph indicated with no problems to date.
When deployed, I get a noticeable nose up pitching and a very
noticeable airframe buffeting.  It does not seem to affect the
handling characteristics in pitch, roll, or yaw in any way.  The
hinge is attached to the board with glass and flox only with
many 1/8" holes in the hinge for epoxy/flox flow through for
better adhesion.

http://mysite.verizon.net/flesner/19.jpg
http://mysite.verizon.net/flesner/02092593.jpg

My board is electrically operated but I like Ken's idea of the
spring loaded up for a hand actuated board.  A fast retract
is appreciated for a "go-around".  Mine takes 7 seconds but
that can seem like 7 minutes as you approach the tree line !

Larry Flesner

KR> Flaps / speed brakes

[Colin Rainey]

At 10:47 AM 8/18/2006, you wrote:
>I am considering adding flaps to my KR2 at a later stage, and the time is
>right to make provisions for them.
>  I wonder which design would be more
>efficient, aerodynamically speaking?
What the standard KR needs for a more comfortable landing approach
is DRAG and the speed brake is the simplest way to achieve that.

I agree with Larry with only one change in description of use in flight. On
my standard plans built KR2 with Dan Diehl wings and all else standard
dimensions, when I deploy my speed brake to 25 degrees, I usually do on base
leg, so I have gone from 110 mph on downwind to 100 on base, and then the
brake which noticably causes a down pitching moment increasing my
visibility, while slowing the plane to 90 to 95 mph. Turning final I rollout
and then apply brake to 50 degrees, and the effect is the same as 40 degrees
of flaps on the older November model C 172's, my KR makes a constant descent
as if on a slide, with no buffet or shudder, and slowing to 80 mph. I round
out approximately 200 feet from the runway end, over the extended threshold
(It is an Air Carrier airport, so has commercial style runways) I round out
into ground effect, approximately 10 to 20 feet AGL. This slows me to 75 mph
immediately, and that is quickly followed by the dramatic slowing caused by
the brake. Some where between 60 and 70 (I am looking outside completely, so
not sure on speed) I allow it to sink to what "feels" like just before
touching and the raise the nose slightly to hold her off. When the sink
returns I "roll" the mains onto the runway the same way one might smooth
icing onto a cake, slow and steady. Normally I get just a slight chirp, and
bump, and I follow that with continued forward pressure to hold the tail up
until it begins to fall on its own. At full nose down stick on rollout with
the tail up, I can gently begin applying the brakes to shorten my rollout,
and once the tail is down, full aft stick holds it down during taxi.

Hope this helps your decision...

Colin Rainey
brokerpi...@bellsouth.net 


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KR> flaps

[Serge VIDAL]

Decision taken, Colin! I'm going to retro-fit split flaps, which are=20
probably the best compromise, since:

- They are as easy to install as a belly board,
- They provide as much drag,
- They do give a bit of extra lift.

My aileron control cables being rigged to the rear of the rear spar, I'll=20
have to be very careful on my setting, but that's manageable.
=20
As for the hinge, I plan to use plain piano hinge, which I will screw to=20
the rear spar with plenty small screws.

Now, I've got to find a way to make the torque tube and the actuator rods. =

I need to find a solution that does not require any welding. Maybe I can=20
find a way that takes only rivetting and glueing?

Serge Vidal
KR2 "Kilimanjaro Cloud"
Paris, France


" Ce courriel et les documents qui y sont attach=E9s peuvent contenir des i=
nformations confidentielles. Si vous n'=EAtes  pas le destinataire escompt=
=E9, merci d'en informer l'exp=E9diteur imm=E9diatement et de d=E9truire ce=
 courriel  ainsi que tous les documents attach=E9s de votre syst=E8me infor=
matique. Toute divulgation, distribution ou copie du pr=E9sent courriel et =
des documents attach=E9s sans autorisation pr=E9alable de son =E9metteur es=
t interdite."=20

" This e-mail and any attached documents may contain confidential or propri=
etary information. If you are not the intended recipient, please advise the=
 sender immediately and delete this e-mail and all attached documents from =
your computer system. Any unauthorised disclosure, distribution or copying =
hereof is prohibited."

KR> flaps

[Colin Rainey]

Serge
What I would do to transition to using the new flaps, since you have not
flown with them on this plane is to get at least say 3000 feet AGL, and then
slow to pattern speed, and slowly begin to deploy them, paying particular
attention to how the plane's attitude changes and what you must do to
compensate. Set up a glide with them to see the difference in rate of
descent. And lastly, apply full flaps, and then attempt a climb as if in a
go around, and note the performance. If you cannot climb with full flaps,
spend some extra time on the ground rehearsing retracting flaps, just after
full power on a go around.

Assembly should be able to be accomplished by using two transfer bellcranks,
sandwiching the torque tubes.

Colin Rainey
brokerpi...@bellsouth.net <mailto:brokerpi...@bellsouth.net>



-Original Message-
From: krnet-boun...@mylist.net [mailto:krnet-boun...@mylist.net]On
Behalf Of Serge VIDAL
Sent: Tuesday, August 22, 2006 4:08 AM
To: kr...@mylist.net
Subject: KR> flaps


Decision taken, Colin! I'm going to retro-fit split flaps, which are
probably the best compromise, since:

- They are as easy to install as a belly board,
- They provide as much drag,
- They do give a bit of extra lift.

My aileron control cables being rigged to the rear of the rear spar, I'll
have to be very careful on my setting, but that's manageable.

As for the hinge, I plan to use plain piano hinge, which I will screw to
the rear spar with plenty small screws.

Now, I've got to find a way to make the torque tube and the actuator rods.
I need to find a solution that does not require any welding. Maybe I can
find a way that takes only rivetting and glueing?

Serge Vidal
KR2 "Kilimanjaro Cloud"
Paris, France


" Ce courriel et les documents qui y sont attachis peuvent contenir des
informations confidentielles. Si vous n'jtes  pas le destinataire escompti,
merci d'en informer l'expiditeur immidiatement et de ditruire ce courriel
ainsi que tous les documents attachis de votre systhme informatique. Toute
divulgation, distribution ou copie du prisent courriel et des documents
attachis sans autorisation prialable de son imetteur est interdite."

" This e-mail and any attached documents may contain confidential or
proprietary information. If you are not the intended recipient, please
advise the sender immediately and delete this e-mail and all attached
documents from your computer system. Any unauthorised disclosure,
distribution or copying hereof is prohibited."

KR> flaps

[Mark Langford]

Serge Vidal wrote:

>>Now, I've got to find a way to make the torque tube and the actuator rods.
I need to find a solution that does not require any welding. Maybe I can
find a way that takes only rivetting and glueing?<<

I used clamp collars made for machine shaft applications (www.mcmaster.com). 
Although I welded my bellcranks to these collars, you could also screw them 
together if you made your bellcrank cover one half of the clamp collar and 
used about four screws.  You can see these clamp collar things at
http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford/kcontrol.html , along with the general idea 
of the flap torque tube.  The very last picture shows the flap torque tube 
and flap actuator motor, but it eventually ended up under the pilot's seat. 
I have a more recent picture of the flap motor and bellcrank stuff somewhere 
that I'll try to dig up tonight.  The other end of the torque tubes just 
extends out through the stub wing rib (which acts as a bearing), where 
another bellcrank and clamp collar setup translates the torque tube rotation 
into pushrod actuation for the flap bellcrank.

Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama
see KR2S project N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford
email to N56ML "at" hiwaay.net

at http://www.krnet.org/info.html 

Réf. : Re: KR> flaps

[Serge VIDAL]

That is pretty much what I have in mind, except I would like to find (or 
make) an aluminum flange to replace the clamp collars, then glue AND rivet 
that flange to both the torque tube and the bellcranks. The tube stops 
could be made the same way.

I guess I've watched too much orf the "A Plane is Born" TV show recently. 
The Europa uses a lot of aluminum-to-aluminum glueing and riveting. And 
that would make for a very easy installation on board the aircraft. Since 
the plane is already built, the difficulty is more in the fitting than the 
designing!

Serge Vidal
KR2 "Kilimanjaro Cloud"
Paris, France





"Mark Langford" <n5...@hiwaay.net>

Envoyé par : krnet-boun...@mylist.net
22/08/2006 15:40
Veuillez répondre à KRnet
Remis le : 22/08/2006 15:40


Pour :  "KRnet" <kr...@mylist.net>
cc :    (ccc : Serge VIDAL/DNSA/SAGEM)
Objet : Re: KR> flaps



Serge Vidal wrote:

>>Now, I've got to find a way to make the torque tube and the actuator 
rods.
I need to find a solution that does not require any welding. Maybe I can
find a way that takes only rivetting and glueing?<<

I used clamp collars made for machine shaft applications 
(www.mcmaster.com). 
Although I welded my bellcranks to these collars, you could also screw 
them 
together if you made your bellcrank cover one half of the clamp collar and 

used about four screws.  You can see these clamp collar things at
http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford/kcontrol.html , along with the general idea 
of the flap torque tube.  The very last picture shows the flap torque tube 

and flap actuator motor, but it eventually ended up under the pilot's 
seat. 
I have a more recent picture of the flap motor and bellcrank stuff 
somewhere 
that I'll try to dig up tonight.  The other end of the torque tubes just 
extends out through the stub wing rib (which acts as a bearing), where 
another bellcrank and clamp collar setup translates the torque tube 
rotation 
into pushrod actuation for the flap bellcrank.

Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama
see KR2S project N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford
email to N56ML "at" hiwaay.net

at http://www.krnet.org/info.html 


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" Ce courriel et les documents qui y sont attachés peuvent contenir des 
informations confidentielles. Si vous n'êtes  pas le destinataire escompté, 
merci d'en informer l'expéditeur immédiatement et de détruire ce courriel  
ainsi que tous les documents attachés de votre système informatique. Toute 
divulgation, distribution ou copie du présent courriel et des documents 
attachés sans autorisation préalable de son émetteur est interdite." 

" This e-mail and any attached documents may contain confidential or 
proprietary information. If you are not the intended recipient, please advise 
the sender immediately and delete this e-mail and all attached documents from 
your computer system. Any unauthorised disclosure, distribution or copying 
hereof is prohibited."

Re: Réf. : Re: KR> flaps

[Mark Langford]

> That is pretty much what I have in mind, except I would like to find (or
> make) an aluminum flange to replace the clamp collars, then glue AND rivet
> that flange to both the torque tube and the bellcranks. The tube stops
> could be made the same way.

I've used T-88 to glue some aluminum parts together, and I dare say nothing 
is ever going to separate them.  It would be interesting to test what 
happens after a few freeze/thaw/hot cycles, but I'm betting they're more or 
less permanent.

The part number for the clamp collars that I used is 6436k72 from Mcmaster 
Carr. They're for 3/4" OD tubing. I don't expect you to order it, but some 
other folks on this side of the pond might be interested.  These are 
aluminum, and allow easy adjustment of range, limit, and synchronization 
between the two flaps.  Next time I do this I may use a carbon fiber torque 
tube rather than 4130...

Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama
see KR2S project N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford
email to N56ML "at" hiwaay.net 

KR> flaps

[da...@alltel.net]

Mark,

Could the same general mechanism, including the motor, be used for a belly 
board?  No, I'm not gonna put it on now, in fact, I am hoping for the first 
flight to be this weekend.  Just planning for the future.  Please put the other 
pics on your site, I would like to see them also.

Dan

From: "Mark Langford" 
I used clamp collars made for machine shaft applications (www.mcmaster.com). 
Although I welded my bellcranks to these collars, you could also screw them 
together if you made your bellcrank cover one half of the clamp collar and 
used about four screws.  You can see these clamp collar things at
http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford/kcontrol.html , along with the general idea 
of the flap torque tube.  The very last picture shows the flap torque tube 
and flap actuator motor, but it eventually ended up under the pilot's seat. 
I have a more recent picture of the flap motor and bellcrank stuff somewhere 
that I'll try to dig up tonight.  The other end of the torque tubes just 
extends out through the stub wing rib (which acts as a bearing), where 
another bellcrank and clamp collar setup translates the torque tube rotation 
into pushrod actuation for the flap bellcrank.

KR> flaps

[Mark Jones]

Dan, I know this was for Langford, but if you want a simple motorized
system look at mine at this link:
http://www.flykr2s.com/bellyboard.html

Mark Jones (N886MJ)
Wales, WI
My Web site: http://www.flykr2s.com/
Mailto:flyk...@wi.rr.com


-Original Message-
From: krnet-boun...@mylist.net [mailto:krnet-boun...@mylist.net]On
Behalf Of da...@alltel.net
Sent: Tuesday, August 22, 2006 10:59 AM
To: KRnet
Subject: Re: Re: KR> flaps


Mark,

Could the same general mechanism, including the motor, be used for a
belly board?  No, I'm not gonna put it on now, in fact, I am hoping for
the first flight to be this weekend.  Just planning for the future.
Please put the other pics on your site, I would like to see them also.

Dan

From: "Mark Langford" <n5...@hiwaay.net>
I used clamp collars made for machine shaft applications
(www.mcmaster.com). 
Although I welded my bellcranks to these collars, you could also screw
them 
together if you made your bellcrank cover one half of the clamp collar
and 
used about four screws.  You can see these clamp collar things at
http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford/kcontrol.html , along with the general
idea 
of the flap torque tube.  The very last picture shows the flap torque
tube 
and flap actuator motor, but it eventually ended up under the pilot's
seat. 
I have a more recent picture of the flap motor and bellcrank stuff
somewhere 
that I'll try to dig up tonight.  The other end of the torque tubes just

extends out through the stub wing rib (which acts as a bearing), where 
another bellcrank and clamp collar setup translates the torque tube
rotation 
into pushrod actuation for the flap bellcrank.



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KR> flaps/PREP

[Larry H.]

As food for thought, if you were going to glue two pieces of aluminum together 
you may want to rough sand the two surfaces to be adjoined so the adhesion 
would be stronger because of the roughness just like anything you glue or 
paint. If you choose to do this then you have probably removed any corrosion 
resistance that may have come on the tube or sheet from the factory that made 
it. In this case it may be advisable to apply aladine to the surface to seal 
the aluminum from corrosion in the future if you did sand the orginal coating 
off.
  The reason I am bringing this up has to do with LongEzes elevators. The 
original plans had you take the aluminum tubing which became your torque tube 
for the elevator, sand it down to rough it up for better adhesion, glue your 
hot wired air foil shaped foam trailing edge to it with epoxy. Then you wrapped 
the fiberglass cloth around the leading edge of the exposed tube and onto the 
foam to mate the two together and form the elevator. All was fine for a few 
years until there were some of the ezes that developed corrosion on the surface 
of the tubes and then there was no adhesion, the corrosion had caused the 
seperation. It seems very strange that an epoxy coated,sanded aluminum tube 
would be able to corrode, but obviously they can. The repair is to remake your 
canard elevator. The procedure now includes sanding the tube as before but now 
you aladine the tube before you glue the foam and fiberglass to it with epoxy. 
The aladine does not remove or fill the roughness sanded
 into the tube for better grip/adhesion it's job is to seal the aluminum to 
prevent corrosion.
  You all may already be doing this but I thought I would mention it just in 
case someone that didn't know may want to do this as an extra precaution. Non 
alidined sanded aluminum glued together parts may last way past our life times 
but never hurts I guess.
  The old saying is "If I knew better then I would do better" !!
  Larry H.

Mark Langford  wrote:
  > That is pretty much what I have in mind, except I would like to find (or
> make) an aluminum flange to replace the clamp collars, then glue AND rivet
> that flange to both the torque tube and the bellcranks. The tube stops
> could be made the same way.

I've used T-88 to glue some aluminum parts together, and I dare say nothing 
is ever going to separate them. It would be interesting to test what 
happens after a few freeze/thaw/hot cycles, but I'm betting they're more or 
less permanent.

The part number for the clamp collars that I used is 6436k72 from Mcmaster 
Carr. They're for 3/4" OD tubing. I don't expect you to order it, but some 
other folks on this side of the pond might be interested. These are 
aluminum, and allow easy adjustment of range, limit, and synchronization 
between the two flaps. Next time I do this I may use a carbon fiber torque 
tube rather than 4130...

Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama
see KR2S project N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford
email to N56ML "at" hiwaay.net 


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KR> Flaps

[Wood, Sidney M (Titan) @ TITAN]

My KR-2 has 6061 aluminum flanges for the flap bellcranks.  I found them in the 
local True Value Hardware store.
I drilled a 3/16-inch hole through the flange and ¾-inch aluminum tube to bolt 
them in place.

Sid Wood
KR-2 N6242
Mechanicsville, MD, USA

That is pretty much what I have in mind, except I would like to find (or 
make) an aluminum flange to replace the clamp collars, then glue AND rivet 
that flange to both the torque tube and the bellcranks. The tube stops 
could be made the same way.

Serge Vidal
KR2 "Kilimanjaro Cloud"
Paris, France

Re: Réf. : Re: KR> flaps/ Torque tube

[matheson]

Serge.
I used 3/4 inch torque tube, but on the ends I use a 2 inch  length of T6 , 
1 inch hollow section ( square) this was a slide fit over the tube, I welded 
( but you could rivet) and arm to one end of the  square section , I 
attached the square section to the tube with two AN bolts at 90 deg to each 
other.

I'll send you a photo of the linkage next,  Serge



Phil Matheson
VH-PKR
mathes...@dodo.com.au
0358833588
Australia
Web Page
http://www.philskr2.50megs.com/
See  VW Engines
http://www.vw-engines.com/
www.homebuilt-aviation.com/

KR> Flaps/tubes tec.

[Robin Macdonald]

Netheads,

I am interested in all the information about flaps/connection to tubes etc.

Has anyone any idea what the touque is on the tube when the flaps are lowered. 

This would give anyone an idea of what size tube to use, what size of flanges  
connections etc & what power is needed in the actuator.

Also once the system was finished you could test load to a required torque. 

Regards 

Robin


r.macdon...@clear.net.nz

Réf. : Re: KR> flaps/PREP

[Serge VIDAL]

Thanks for the advicce, Larry! I had no idea an Alodined surfaced could be 
glued. I treat all my aluminum parts with Alodine, essentially because I 
like the finish. Now, you just gave me an extra good reason to do so.

Being the paranoid I am, in any case, I will make a rediundant solution: 
glue PLUS rivets.

Serge





"Larry H." <lah...@yahoo.com>

Envoyé par : krnet-boun...@mylist.net
22/08/2006 20:42
Veuillez répondre à KRnet
Remis le : 22/08/2006 20:42


Pour :  KRnet <kr...@mylist.net>
cc :(ccc : Serge VIDAL/DNSA/SAGEM)
    Objet : Re: KR> flaps/PREP



As food for thought, if you were going to glue two pieces of aluminum 
together you may want to rough sand the two surfaces to be adjoined so the 
adhesion would be stronger because of the roughness just like anything you 
glue or paint. If you choose to do this then you have probably removed any 
corrosion resistance that may have come on the tube or sheet from the 
factory that made it. In this case it may be advisable to apply aladine to 
the surface to seal the aluminum from corrosion in the future if you did 
sand the orginal coating off.
  The reason I am bringing this up has to do with LongEzes elevators. The 
original plans had you take the aluminum tubing which became your torque 
tube for the elevator, sand it down to rough it up for better adhesion, 
glue your hot wired air foil shaped foam trailing edge to it with epoxy. 
Then you wrapped the fiberglass cloth around the leading edge of the 
exposed tube and onto the foam to mate the two together and form the 
elevator. All was fine for a few years until there were some of the ezes 
that developed corrosion on the surface of the tubes and then there was no 
adhesion, the corrosion had caused the seperation. It seems very strange 
that an epoxy coated,sanded aluminum tube would be able to corrode, but 
obviously they can. The repair is to remake your canard elevator. The 
procedure now includes sanding the tube as before but now you aladine the 
tube before you glue the foam and fiberglass to it with epoxy. The aladine 
does not remove or fill the roughness sanded
 into the tube for better grip/adhesion it's job is to seal the aluminum 
to prevent corrosion.
  You all may already be doing this but I thought I would mention it just 
in case someone that didn't know may want to do this as an extra 
precaution. Non alidined sanded aluminum glued together parts may last way 
past our life times but never hurts I guess.
  The old saying is "If I knew better then I would do better" !!
  Larry H.

Mark Langford <n5...@hiwaay.net> wrote:
  > That is pretty much what I have in mind, except I would like to find 
(or
> make) an aluminum flange to replace the clamp collars, then glue AND 
rivet
> that flange to both the torque tube and the bellcranks. The tube stops
> could be made the same way.

I've used T-88 to glue some aluminum parts together, and I dare say 
nothing 
is ever going to separate them. It would be interesting to test what 
happens after a few freeze/thaw/hot cycles, but I'm betting they're more 
or 
less permanent.

The part number for the clamp collars that I used is 6436k72 from Mcmaster 

Carr. They're for 3/4" OD tubing. I don't expect you to order it, but some 

other folks on this side of the pond might be interested. These are 
aluminum, and allow easy adjustment of range, limit, and synchronization 
between the two flaps. Next time I do this I may use a carbon fiber torque 

tube rather than 4130...

Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama
see KR2S project N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford
email to N56ML "at" hiwaay.net 


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" Ce courriel et les documents qui y sont attachés peuvent contenir des 
informations confidentielles. Si vous n'êtes  pas le destinataire escompté, 
merci d'en informer l'expéditeur immédiatement et de détruire ce courriel  
ainsi que tous les documents attachés de votre système informatique. Toute 
divulgation, distribution ou copie du présent courriel et des documents 
attachés sans autorisation préalable de son émetteur est interdite." 

" This e-mail and any attached documents may contain confidential or 
proprietary information. If you are not the intended recipient, please advise 
the sender immediately and delete this e-mail and all attached documents from 
your computer system. Any unauthorised disclosure, distribution or copying 
hereof is prohibited."

Réf. : KR> Flaps

[Serge VIDAL]

What use were they sold for, exactly? (what application)

Serge





"Wood, Sidney M (Titan) @ TITAN" 
cc :(ccc : Serge VIDAL/DNSA/SAGEM)
    Objet : KR> Flaps



My KR-2 has 6061 aluminum flanges for the flap bellcranks.  I found them 
in the local True Value Hardware store.
I drilled a 3/16-inch hole through the flange and ¾-inch aluminum tube to 
bolt them in place.

Sid Wood
KR-2 N6242
Mechanicsville, MD, USA

That is pretty much what I have in mind, except I would like to find (or 
make) an aluminum flange to replace the clamp collars, then glue AND rivet 

that flange to both the torque tube and the bellcranks. The tube stops 
could be made the same way.

Serge Vidal
KR2 "Kilimanjaro Cloud"
Paris, France

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" Ce courriel et les documents qui y sont attachés peuvent contenir des 
informations confidentielles. Si vous n'êtes  pas le destinataire escompté, 
merci d'en informer l'expéditeur immédiatement et de détruire ce courriel  
ainsi que tous les documents attachés de votre système informatique. Toute 
divulgation, distribution ou copie du présent courriel et des documents 
attachés sans autorisation préalable de son émetteur est interdite." 

" This e-mail and any attached documents may contain confidential or 
proprietary information. If you are not the intended recipient, please advise 
the sender immediately and delete this e-mail and all attached documents from 
your computer system. Any unauthorised disclosure, distribution or copying 
hereof is prohibited."

KR> Flaps

[Wood, Sidney M (Titan) @ TITAN]

The flanges were intended to be the base plate for a hand rail
constructed with aluminum tubes.  There were 4 holes in the flat part to
bolt to the floor. A single set screw
secured the aluminum tube; I drilled that out and through the tube and
fastened with an AN3 bolt and lock nut.  The arm for the bell crank is
bolted across the flat of the flange with (2) AN3 bolts. 
Hardware stores also have similar flanges in galvanized steel threaded
for steel water pipe.  These are massive compared to the aluminum
flanges.
Sid Wood
KR-2 N6242
Mechanicsville, MD, USA

What use were they sold for, exactly? (what application)
Serge


My KR-2 has 6061 aluminum flanges for the flap bell cranks.  I found
them 
in the local True Value Hardware store.
Sid Wood

That is pretty much what I have in mind, except I would like to find (or

make) an aluminum flange to replace the clamp collars, then glue AND
rivet 
that flange to both the torque tube and the bell cranks. The tube stops 
could be made the same way.

Serge Vidal
KR2 "Kilimanjaro Cloud"
Paris, France

R�f. : Re: KR> flaps/PREP

[Larry H.]

Your welcome Serge.
  Larry H


Serge VIDAL <serge.vi...@sagem.com> wrote:
  Thanks for the advicce, Larry! I had no idea an Alodined surfaced could be 
glued. I treat all my aluminum parts with Alodine, essentially because I 
like the finish. Now, you just gave me an extra good reason to do so.

Being the paranoid I am, in any case, I will make a rediundant solution: 
glue PLUS rivets.

Serge





"Larry H." 

Envoyé par : krnet-boun...@mylist.net
22/08/2006 20:42
Veuillez répondre à KRnet
Remis le : 22/08/2006 20:42


Pour : KRnet 
cc : (ccc : Serge VIDAL/DNSA/SAGEM)
Objet : Re: KR> flaps/PREP



As food for thought, if you were going to glue two pieces of aluminum 
together you may want to rough sand the two surfaces to be adjoined so the 
adhesion would be stronger because of the roughness just like anything you 
glue or paint. If you choose to do this then you have probably removed any 
corrosion resistance that may have come on the tube or sheet from the 
factory that made it. In this case it may be advisable to apply aladine to 
the surface to seal the aluminum from corrosion in the future if you did 
sand the orginal coating off.
The reason I am bringing this up has to do with LongEzes elevators. The 
original plans had you take the aluminum tubing which became your torque 
tube for the elevator, sand it down to rough it up for better adhesion, 
glue your hot wired air foil shaped foam trailing edge to it with epoxy. 
Then you wrapped the fiberglass cloth around the leading edge of the 
exposed tube and onto the foam to mate the two together and form the 
elevator. All was fine for a few years until there were some of the ezes 
that developed corrosion on the surface of the tubes and then there was no 
adhesion, the corrosion had caused the seperation. It seems very strange 
that an epoxy coated,sanded aluminum tube would be able to corrode, but 
obviously they can. The repair is to remake your canard elevator. The 
procedure now includes sanding the tube as before but now you aladine the 
tube before you glue the foam and fiberglass to it with epoxy. The aladine 
does not remove or fill the roughness sanded
into the tube for better grip/adhesion it's job is to seal the aluminum 
to prevent corrosion.
You all may already be doing this but I thought I would mention it just 
in case someone that didn't know may want to do this as an extra 
precaution. Non alidined sanded aluminum glued together parts may last way 
past our life times but never hurts I guess.
The old saying is "If I knew better then I would do better" !!
Larry H.

Mark Langford wrote:
> That is pretty much what I have in mind, except I would like to find 
(or
> make) an aluminum flange to replace the clamp collars, then glue AND 
rivet
> that flange to both the torque tube and the bellcranks. The tube stops
> could be made the same way.

I've used T-88 to glue some aluminum parts together, and I dare say 
nothing 
is ever going to separate them. It would be interesting to test what 
happens after a few freeze/thaw/hot cycles, but I'm betting they're more 
or 
less permanent.

The part number for the clamp collars that I used is 6436k72 from Mcmaster 

Carr. They're for 3/4" OD tubing. I don't expect you to order it, but some 

other folks on this side of the pond might be interested. These are 
aluminum, and allow easy adjustment of range, limit, and synchronization 
between the two flaps. Next time I do this I may use a carbon fiber torque 

tube rather than 4130...

Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama
see KR2S project N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford
email to N56ML "at" hiwaay.net 


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" Ce courriel et les documents qui y sont attachés peuvent contenir des 
informations confidentielles. Si vous n'êtes pas le destinataire escompté, 
merci d'en informer l'expéditeur immédiatement et de détruire ce courriel ainsi 
que tous les documents attachés de votre système informatique. Toute 
divulgation, distribution ou copie du présent courriel et des documents 
attachés sans autorisation préalable de son émetteur est interdite." 

" This e-mail and any attached documents may contain confidential or 
proprietary information. If you are not the intended recipient, please advise 
the sender immediately and delete this e-mail and all attached documents from 
your computer system. Any unauthorised disclosure, distribution or copying 
hereof is prohibited."

R�f. : KR> Flaps

[Larry H.]

I am not sure if someone has already said this, I think they may have but if 
you take a piece of square tubing that will slip over the torque tube for the 
plaps, then take a piece of angle rivet onto one side of the square tubing and 
the other side of the angle will cover the end of the square tubing and round 
tubing inside of it. You could rivet the angle to the square tubing on the one 
side in each corner of the square tubing where the round tubing will not hit 
the rivets then bolt through the angle, square tubing and round tubing.
  Hope this makes sense.
  Larry H.

Serge VIDAL <serge.vi...@sagem.com> wrote:
  What use were they sold for, exactly? (what application)

Serget





"Wood, Sidney M (Titan) @ TITAN" 
Envoyé par : krnet-boun...@mylist.net
22/08/2006 22:39
Veuillez répondre à KRnet
Remis le : 22/08/2006 22:39


Pour : 
cc : (ccc : Serge VIDAL/DNSA/SAGEM)
Objet : KR> Flaps



My KR-2 has 6061 aluminum flanges for the flap bellcranks. I found them 
in the local True Value Hardware store.
I drilled a 3/16-inch hole through the flange and ¾-inch aluminum tube to 
bolt them in place.

Sid Wood
KR-2 N6242
Mechanicsville, MD, USA

That is pretty much what I have in mind, except I would like to find (or 
make) an aluminum flange to replace the clamp collars, then glue AND rivet 

that flange to both the torque tube and the bellcranks. The tube stops 
could be made the same way.

Serge Vidal
KR2 "Kilimanjaro Cloud"
Paris, France

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" Ce courriel et les documents qui y sont attachés peuvent contenir des 
informations confidentielles. Si vous n'êtes pas le destinataire escompté, 
merci d'en informer l'expéditeur immédiatement et de détruire ce courriel ainsi 
que tous les documents attachés de votre système informatique. Toute 
divulgation, distribution ou copie du présent courriel et des documents 
attachés sans autorisation préalable de son émetteur est interdite." 

" This e-mail and any attached documents may contain confidential or 
proprietary information. If you are not the intended recipient, please advise 
the sender immediately and delete this e-mail and all attached documents from 
your computer system. Any unauthorised disclosure, distribution or copying 
hereof is prohibited."
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Re: Réf. : Re: KR> flaps/PREP

[Myron (Dan) Freeman]

Hi all;

I attended a EAA workshop this last weekend here in Indy on "Composite 
Construction" among others and the instructor mentioned that all aluminum 
should be treated with "Alodine" as a final step prior to gluing them in 
with T-88 epoxy and he also mentioned that you need to keep them in a sealed 
container where they can be kept contaminent free (finger prints, dust, 
ect.) untill final installation on a very low humidity day. It was a very 
good workshop and I also found out that I can get my A licence and my 
State will pay for it, so I'm off to school again.

Regards, Dan F.



- Original Message - 
From: "Larry H." <lah...@yahoo.com>
To: "KRnet" <kr...@mylist.net>
Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2006 1:45 PM
Subject: Re: Réf. : Re: KR> flaps/PREP


Your welcome Serge.
  Larry H


Serge VIDAL <serge.vi...@sagem.com> wrote:
  Thanks for the advicce, Larry! I had no idea an Alodined surfaced could be
glued. I treat all my aluminum parts with Alodine, essentially because I
like the finish. Now, you just gave me an extra good reason to do so.

Being the paranoid I am, in any case, I will make a rediundant solution:
glue PLUS rivets.

Serge





"Larry H."

Envoyé par : krnet-boun...@mylist.net
22/08/2006 20:42
Veuillez répondre à KRnet
Remis le : 22/08/2006 20:42


Pour : KRnet
cc : (ccc : Serge VIDAL/DNSA/SAGEM)
Objet : Re: KR> flaps/PREP



As food for thought, if you were going to glue two pieces of aluminum
together you may want to rough sand the two surfaces to be adjoined so the
adhesion would be stronger because of the roughness just like anything you
glue or paint. If you choose to do this then you have probably removed any
corrosion resistance that may have come on the tube or sheet from the
factory that made it. In this case it may be advisable to apply aladine to
the surface to seal the aluminum from corrosion in the future if you did
sand the orginal coating off.
The reason I am bringing this up has to do with LongEzes elevators. The
original plans had you take the aluminum tubing which became your torque
tube for the elevator, sand it down to rough it up for better adhesion,
glue your hot wired air foil shaped foam trailing edge to it with epoxy.
Then you wrapped the fiberglass cloth around the leading edge of the
exposed tube and onto the foam to mate the two together and form the
elevator. All was fine for a few years until there were some of the ezes
that developed corrosion on the surface of the tubes and then there was no
adhesion, the corrosion had caused the seperation. It seems very strange
that an epoxy coated,sanded aluminum tube would be able to corrode, but
obviously they can. The repair is to remake your canard elevator. The
procedure now includes sanding the tube as before but now you aladine the
tube before you glue the foam and fiberglass to it with epoxy. The aladine
does not remove or fill the roughness sanded
into the tube for better grip/adhesion it's job is to seal the aluminum
to prevent corrosion.
You all may already be doing this but I thought I would mention it just
in case someone that didn't know may want to do this as an extra
precaution. Non alidined sanded aluminum glued together parts may last way
past our life times but never hurts I guess.
The old saying is "If I knew better then I would do better" !!
Larry H.

Mark Langford wrote:
> That is pretty much what I have in mind, except I would like to find
(or
> make) an aluminum flange to replace the clamp collars, then glue AND
rivet
> that flange to both the torque tube and the bellcranks. The tube stops
> could be made the same way.

I've used T-88 to glue some aluminum parts together, and I dare say
nothing
is ever going to separate them. It would be interesting to test what
happens after a few freeze/thaw/hot cycles, but I'm betting they're more
or
less permanent.

The part number for the clamp collars that I used is 6436k72 from Mcmaster

Carr. They're for 3/4" OD tubing. I don't expect you to order it, but some

other folks on this side of the pond might be interested. These are
aluminum, and allow easy adjustment of range, limit, and synchronization
between the two flaps. Next time I do this I may use a carbon fiber torque

tube rather than 4130...

Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama
see KR2S project N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford
email to N56ML "at" hiwaay.net


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" Ce courriel et les 

KR> Flaps

[Serge VIDAL]

I am considering adding flaps to my KR2 at a later stage, and the time is=20
right to make provisions for them. I'm looking at something easy to=20
retro-fit. Now, I have seen pictures of an Australian-built KR2 which has=20
got what I believe is called split flaps (just the lower skin drops,=20
rather than the whole profile). I wonder which design would be more=20
efficient, aerodynamically speaking? That one, or the one described in the =

plans? Also, considering this spans only the width of the stubwings, can=20
you really expect any significant change?

Serge Vidal
KR2 "Kilimanjaro Cloud"
Paris, France

=20


" Ce courriel et les documents qui y sont attach=E9s peuvent contenir des i=
nformations confidentielles. Si vous n'=EAtes  pas le destinataire escompt=
=E9, merci d'en informer l'exp=E9diteur imm=E9diatement et de d=E9truire ce=
 courriel  ainsi que tous les documents attach=E9s de votre syst=E8me infor=
matique. Toute divulgation, distribution ou copie du pr=E9sent courriel et =
des documents attach=E9s sans autorisation pr=E9alable de son =E9metteur es=
t interdite."=20

" This e-mail and any attached documents may contain confidential or propri=
etary information. If you are not the intended recipient, please advise the=
 sender immediately and delete this e-mail and all attached documents from =
your computer system. Any unauthorised disclosure, distribution or copying =
hereof is prohibited."

KR> Flaps

[Mark Langford]

Serge Vidal wrote:

>> I wonder which design would be more
efficient, aerodynamically speaking? That one, or the one described in the
plans?<<

I can't answer the part about whether or not the plans version of the flaps 
are effective, but Ken Rand commented that he didn't know how bad he needed 
them until he had them.  Orma would tell you that they are worth it also. 
He has them and likes them.  He retroffitted them later, so he knows what 
it's like without them.

As for split versus "plain" flaps, the split flaps will give you almost as 
much lift as the plain flaps, but you'll also get a lot of drag to slow you 
down on landing...similar to a belly board.  I'd go for split, personally, 
but you'd expect that out of me.  Mine work great, and lower my landing 
speed by about 5-6 mph, but mine are pretty big (see 
http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford/99101051.jpg at 
http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford/owings.html .  I shudder at the thought of 
landing without them deployed, because I come in shallower and faster, 
burning up more runway (which I don't have a lot of), and I'm moving faster 
when I touch down.  It may be that I'm just not used to landing that way, 
and I do practice it sometimes just to remind me how nice my flaps are.

I added up my hours and landings the other day, and I'm up to 755 KR 
landings in less than 1 year of flying.  I've actually gotten fairly decent 
at it, finally.  I three point the thing, if you can  call it that, but need 
to extend the gear to get the landing speed down a little lower.  Right now 
I touch down at about 65mph, but I'm still flying.  Taller gear will let me 
drop the speed a little more.

The other day I started doing touch n goes on my 2600' strip, and wondering 
why I've been practicing on 5000' runways...

Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama
see KR2S project N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford
email to N56ML "at" hiwaay.net
http://www.krnet.org/info.html 

KR> Flaps

[larry severson]

At 08:47 AM 8/18/2006, you wrote:
>I am considering adding flaps to my KR2 at a later stage, and the time is
>right to make provisions for them. I'm looking at something easy to
>retro-fit. Now, I have seen pictures of an Australian-built KR2 which has
>got what I believe is called split flaps (just the lower skin drops,
>rather than the whole profile). I wonder which design would be more
>efficient, aerodynamically speaking? That one, or the one described in the
>plans? Also, considering this spans only the width of the stubwings, can
>you really expect any significant change?

google flaps. There is a lot of info available to answer your 
questions. Short answer, small reduction in stalling speed, but 
effective as a speed brake (drag inducer).

one reference included:
In 1920, Orville Wright and J. M. H. Jacobs invented the split flap, 
which consisted of a hinged section on the trailing edge of the 
underside of the wing. The split flap was simple and also had the 
benefit of increasing drag, which helped a pilot descend toward the 
runway at a steeper rate than current wings would allow and thus made 
landing approaches easier.


Larry Severson
Fountain Valley, CA 92708
(714) 968-9852
lar...@socal.rr.com 

KR> Flaps

[Fred Johnson]

Serge,

Read Barnaby Wainfan's articles in Kitplanes concerning flaps. There are
several types of flaps and all have there pro's and con's. Plain flaps
are easy to make but don't provide as much lift as slotted or fowler
flaps. Split flaps aren't as effective as plain flaps but create a whole
lot more drag than plain flaps. Slotted flaps (that's what I'm building
into my wings, are good at both creating more lift and when deployed far
enough create a whole lot of drag and aren't as complex as fowler flaps.
I really suggest you read Barnaby's articles if you can, they'll be a
great help to you.

Fred Johnson
Reno, NV.

-Original Message-
From: krnet-boun...@mylist.net [mailto:krnet-boun...@mylist.net] On
Behalf Of Serge VIDAL
Sent: Friday, August 18, 2006 8:48 AM
To: KRnet
Subject: KR> Flaps

I am considering adding flaps to my KR2 at a later stage, and the time
is 
right to make provisions for them. I'm looking at something easy to 
retro-fit. Now, I have seen pictures of an Australian-built KR2 which
has 
got what I believe is called split flaps (just the lower skin drops, 
rather than the whole profile). I wonder which design would be more 
efficient, aerodynamically speaking? That one, or the one described in
the 
plans? Also, considering this spans only the width of the stubwings, can

you really expect any significant change?

Serge Vidal
KR2 "Kilimanjaro Cloud"
Paris, France




" Ce courriel et les documents qui y sont attachés peuvent contenir des
informations confidentielles. Si vous n'êtes  pas le destinataire
escompté, merci d'en informer l'expéditeur immédiatement et de détruire
ce courriel  ainsi que tous les documents attachés de votre système
informatique. Toute divulgation, distribution ou copie du présent
courriel et des documents attachés sans autorisation préalable de son
émetteur est interdite." 

" This e-mail and any attached documents may contain confidential or
proprietary information. If you are not the intended recipient, please
advise the sender immediately and delete this e-mail and all attached
documents from your computer system. Any unauthorised disclosure,
distribution or copying hereof is prohibited."

KR> Flaps

[Joseph H. Horton]

 Serge,
I have the split flaps on 357 CJ and they do make a difference. I
have some work to do to them yet in that there is more flex or play in
the actuator linkage than there should be. I did adjust them once and it
made a noticeable difference in my touch down speed and roll out. I
believe that I can get them to operate better with a different linkage
set up. I think they look cool if nothing else and they disappear in the
bottom of the wing nicely
Joe Horton, Coopersburg, PA.
joe.kr2s.buil...@juno.com
. 
> I am considering adding flaps to my KR2 at a later stage, and the 
> time is 
> right to make provisions for them. I'm looking at something easy to 
> 
> retro-fit. Now, I have seen pictures of an Australian-built KR2 
> which has 
> got what I believe is called split flaps (just the lower skin drops, 
> 
> rather than the whole profile). I wonder which design would be more 
> 
> efficient, aerodynamically speaking? That one, or the one described 
> in the 
> plans? Also, considering this spans only the width of the stubwings, 
> can 
> you really expect any significant change?
> 
> Serge Vidal
> KR2 "Kilimanjaro Cloud"
> Paris, France

KR> Flaps

[Fred Johnson]

One thing about plain flaps is that they have the advantage of being
reflexed slightly which could improve cruise flight. Sailplanes have
done that for years.

Fred Johnson
Product Manager
T.E. West, LLC.

-Original Message-
From: krnet-boun...@mylist.net [mailto:krnet-boun...@mylist.net] On
Behalf Of Mark Langford
Sent: Friday, August 18, 2006 9:12 AM
To: KRnet
Subject: Re: KR> Flaps

Serge Vidal wrote:

>> I wonder which design would be more
efficient, aerodynamically speaking? That one, or the one described in
the
plans?<<

I can't answer the part about whether or not the plans version of the
flaps 
are effective, but Ken Rand commented that he didn't know how bad he
needed 
them until he had them.  Orma would tell you that they are worth it
also. 
He has them and likes them.  He retroffitted them later, so he knows
what 
it's like without them.

As for split versus "plain" flaps, the split flaps will give you almost
as 
much lift as the plain flaps, but you'll also get a lot of drag to slow
you 
down on landing...similar to a belly board.  I'd go for split,
personally, 
but you'd expect that out of me.  Mine work great, and lower my landing 
speed by about 5-6 mph, but mine are pretty big (see 
http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford/99101051.jpg at 
http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford/owings.html .  I shudder at the thought
of 
landing without them deployed, because I come in shallower and faster, 
burning up more runway (which I don't have a lot of), and I'm moving
faster 
when I touch down.  It may be that I'm just not used to landing that
way, 
and I do practice it sometimes just to remind me how nice my flaps are.

I added up my hours and landings the other day, and I'm up to 755 KR 
landings in less than 1 year of flying.  I've actually gotten fairly
decent 
at it, finally.  I three point the thing, if you can  call it that, but
need 
to extend the gear to get the landing speed down a little lower.  Right
now 
I touch down at about 65mph, but I'm still flying.  Taller gear will let
me 
drop the speed a little more.

The other day I started doing touch n goes on my 2600' strip, and
wondering 
why I've been practicing on 5000' runways...

Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama
see KR2S project N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford
email to N56ML "at" hiwaay.net
http://www.krnet.org/info.html 


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KR> Flaps / speed brakes

[Larry Flesner]

At 10:47 AM 8/18/2006, you wrote:
>I am considering adding flaps to my KR2 at a later stage, and the time is
>right to make provisions for them.
>  I wonder which design would be more
>efficient, aerodynamically speaking?
>  Also, considering this spans only the width of the stubwings, can
>you really expect any significant change?
>
>Serge Vidal


As everyone has an opinion, I'll share mine.  The stall speed for most KR's are
low and in the ballpark range of the C-150 at 50 mph,+&- 5 mph.  I really don't
think you will lower that more than a few mph regardless of the type of flap
used.  What the standard KR needs for a more comfortable landing approach
is DRAG and the speed brake is the simplest way to achieve that.

With the 2S extension and using a reasonable size tailwheel and 
spring (i.e., Langford)
the ground angle is too shallow to achieve a high enough angle of 
attack to slow
the airplane down for touchdown.  I'm using a 30 inch gear leg as compared to
the standard 24 inch Diehl legs on my 24 inch stretched fuselage.  I'm able to
use a 9X30 inch "belly board" and still have plenty of ground 
clearance, even on
grass.  It extends down to nearly 90 degrees and converts my KR from a rocket
to a rock for landings.  I even have to carry a bit of power on 
approach to maintain
a 500 fpm decent.  The entire runway, including the touchdown point are visible
over the nose in my KR right down to the flare.

My KR, with the longer gear and a 3 1/2 degree incidence on the wing, 
still only
sets at 12 degrees cord angle in a ground three point attitude.  Most KR's are
less than that.  That is several degrees below the stall angle of the 
wing.  You
can see why a perfect 3 point landing would be hard to achieve as the wing is
still flying.  Any unchecked vertical decent (dropping it in) will 
put you right back
in the air with the spring from the gear.  I NEVER try to three point 
but attempt to
make the slowest possible tail low contact with the mains and then plant it on
with a bit of forward stick.  Once I can no longer hold the tail up 
with elevator I'm
below flying speed, come full back with the stick, and get on the 
brakes.  In 240
flight hours I've always had directional control with rudder only 
until the tailwheel
is planted.  I never use brakes for directional control.  My last
landing yesterday evening had me shut down in approx 1500 feet on hard surface.
That was at 70 mph indicated over the numbers.  The only landings I've made
without using the speed brake have been playing on the local 8000 foot runway
, approaching at 90 mph, and then just holding it off in ground 
effect.  I could land
without the brake but it puts the approach "outside my comfort 
zone".  I suspect
that may be one reason that many KR's are built but considered to hot or too
hard to fly and then seldom see the light of day.  SELECTABLE 
DRAG  is the answer.

We'll see how Mark's gear extensions work for him in his quest for a 
slower touchdown
speed.  I'm convinced they will make a difference and I know he will 
share that info
with us when it happens.

As always,.:-)

Larry Flesner

KR> flaps

[Oscar Zuniga]

I think Jeff Scott will probably spot this discussion and pipe in here 
somewhere, but in case not- he retrofitted his KR2S with new flaps and 
actuation and documented the performance differences and installation quite 
well.  The photos aren't out there anymore, but the discussion can be found 
using the KRNet search engine.  One such post is Jeff's from Sept. 22, 2005, 
when you search on "Jeff Scott flaps" at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/

Oscar Zuniga
San Antonio, TX
mailto: taildr...@hotmail.com
website at http://www.flysquirrel.net

KR> Flaps

[Kenneth Wiltrout]

I built 6399U W/O flaps and after 4 yrs of floating indefinitely decided to 
go with the belly board. If you fly final at 70 and then pull it to full 
deflection you will hit the corn unless you add some power. The biggest 
issue as I see it is that when you really start slowing the KR down you ( at 
least in my case ) must go to a nose high attitude which can be an issue if 
you are not familiar with the  runway etc. Make no mistake-a 
properly sized board will claw the KR to the ground, Last week I went in to 
a 1800 ft turf strip that I never in a million yrs could have done w/o the 
belly board. YOUR RESULTS MAY VARY.


Ken Wiltrout
Kutztown, Pa


- Original Message - 
From: "Mark Langford" <n5...@hiwaay.net>
To: "KRnet" <kr...@mylist.net>
Sent: Friday, August 18, 2006 12:12 PM
Subject: Re: KR> Flaps


> Serge Vidal wrote:
>
>>> I wonder which design would be more
> efficient, aerodynamically speaking? That one, or the one described in the
> plans?<<
>
> I can't answer the part about whether or not the plans version of the 
> flaps
> are effective, but Ken Rand commented that he didn't know how bad he 
> needed
> them until he had them.  Orma would tell you that they are worth it also.
> He has them and likes them.  He retroffitted them later, so he knows what
> it's like without them.
>
> As for split versus "plain" flaps, the split flaps will give you almost as
> much lift as the plain flaps, but you'll also get a lot of drag to slow 
> you
> down on landing...similar to a belly board.  I'd go for split, personally,
> but you'd expect that out of me.  Mine work great, and lower my landing
> speed by about 5-6 mph, but mine are pretty big (see
> http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford/99101051.jpg at
> http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford/owings.html .  I shudder at the thought 
> of
> landing without them deployed, because I come in shallower and faster,
> burning up more runway (which I don't have a lot of), and I'm moving 
> faster
> when I touch down.  It may be that I'm just not used to landing that way,
> and I do practice it sometimes just to remind me how nice my flaps are.
>
> I added up my hours and landings the other day, and I'm up to 755 KR
> landings in less than 1 year of flying.  I've actually gotten fairly 
> decent
> at it, finally.  I three point the thing, if you can  call it that, but 
> need
> to extend the gear to get the landing speed down a little lower.  Right 
> now
> I touch down at about 65mph, but I'm still flying.  Taller gear will let 
> me
> drop the speed a little more.
>
> The other day I started doing touch n goes on my 2600' strip, and 
> wondering
> why I've been practicing on 5000' runways...
>
> Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama
> see KR2S project N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford
> email to N56ML "at" hiwaay.net
> http://www.krnet.org/info.html
>
>
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> to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net
> please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
>
>
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> 

KR> Flaps

[Mark Langford]

Ken Wiltrout wrote:

>Last week I went in to a 1800 ft turf strip that I never in a million yrs 
>could have done w/o the
> belly board.

Yep, I fly into Moontown's 2100' grass strip all the time.  I should point 
out that my split flaps presently only deflect about 25 degrees due to my 
lack of vision into the future regarding the linkage, but I've since figured 
out a way to easily get 45 degrees, so I feel a change in my landing 
performance next time I takes the wings off and take the time to move some 
pushrods and bellcranks around a  little...

Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama
see KR2S project N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford
email to N56ML "at" hiwaay.net

KR> Flaps

[Bob Lee]

I have been reading this thread on flaps and nobody has mentioned one
extremely important factor.  The first ride I had in a KR, Dan Diehl gave me
a ride in Bob Passmore's KR2 which had the standard flaps.  Dan made a
special point to show me the differance in approach attitude with and
without flaps.  The most important factor in using the "stock" flaps
according to Dan was that they lower the nose so that you can see where you
are going to land.  I was convinced by his demonstration and I've built
stock KR2 flaps on my KR2.  When they are deployed the nose drops
considerably and the plane slows down, both neat features to have available.

YMMV!

Regards,

Bob Lee
N52BL  KR2
Suwanee, GA
91% done only 65% to go!

KR> Flaps

[sparksfly...@cox.net]

Hey Bob,
I now own 81bp that Bob Passmore built. Dan is right on about the flaps.
Plane now has about
1300 hrs. on it.   Sparky  Sparks  San Diego, Ca.
- Original Message - 
From: "Bob Lee" <b...@flyboybob.com>
To: "'KRnet'" <kr...@mylist.net>
Sent: Friday, August 18, 2006 2:47 PM
Subject: RE: KR> Flaps


> I have been reading this thread on flaps and nobody has mentioned one
> extremely important factor.  The first ride I had in a KR, Dan Diehl gave
me
> a ride in Bob Passmore's KR2 which had the standard flaps.  Dan made a
> special point to show me the differance in approach attitude with and
> without flaps.  The most important factor in using the "stock" flaps
> according to Dan was that they lower the nose so that you can see where
you
> are going to land.  I was convinced by his demonstration and I've built
> stock KR2 flaps on my KR2.  When they are deployed the nose drops
> considerably and the plane slows down, both neat features to have
available.
>
> YMMV!
>
> Regards,
>
> Bob Lee
> N52BL  KR2
> Suwanee, GA
> 91% done only 65% to go!
>
>
>
> ___
> Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp
> to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net
> please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html

KR> Flaps

[Larry Flesner]

At 04:47 PM 8/18/2006, you wrote:
>I have been reading this thread on flaps and nobody has mentioned one
>extremely important factor.
>  Dan made a
>special point to show me the differance in approach attitude with and
>without flaps.  The most important factor in using the "stock" flaps
>according to Dan was that they lower the nose so that you can see where you
>are going to land.
>Bob Lee
+++

I guess my statement:

"The entire runway, including the touchdown point are visible
over the nose in my KR right down to the flare."

didn't state it clearly enough.  That's exactly what happens when
I lower the speed brake.  I actually get a "nose up" pitching movement
when I lower the brake and I have to trim considerable nose down
to keep the speed up.  My approach to landing visibility is as good
as in a C-172.  I'm still convinced that the speed brake is the easiest
to acquire drag available when you consider building complexity.  As
for faring in a belly board, how much work is there to building a 1/4 inch
ramp on the lead and trail edge of the board that conforms to the shape
of the fuselage?

Larry Flesner

KR> Flaps

[Kenneth Wiltrout]

Mark---Does it vibrate the S much when landing? The turf I landed on 
looked really nice but it was a wid ride.

Ken Wiltrout




- Original Message - 
From: "Mark Langford" <n5...@hiwaay.net>
To: "KRnet" <kr...@mylist.net>
Sent: Friday, August 18, 2006 2:20 PM
Subject: Re: KR> Flaps


> Ken Wiltrout wrote:
>
>>Last week I went in to a 1800 ft turf strip that I never in a million yrs
>>could have done w/o the
>> belly board.
>
> Yep, I fly into Moontown's 2100' grass strip all the time.  I should point
> out that my split flaps presently only deflect about 25 degrees due to my
> lack of vision into the future regarding the linkage, but I've since 
> figured
> out a way to easily get 45 degrees, so I feel a change in my landing
> performance next time I takes the wings off and take the time to move some
> pushrods and bellcranks around a  little...
>
> Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama
> see KR2S project N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford
> email to N56ML "at" hiwaay.net
>
>
> ___
> Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp
> to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net
> please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
>
>
> -- 
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.11.3/423 - Release Date: 8/18/2006
>
> 

KR> flaps

[jscott.pi...@juno.com]

Actually, the web page with the flap mods, tail mods, photos, my opinions
and analysis is still up.  The process I did is well documented with
photos.
< http://www.vla.com/jscott/kr/2005mods.html>

Jeff Scott


On Fri, 18 Aug 2006 13:07:49 -0500 "Oscar Zuniga" 
writes:
> I think Jeff Scott will probably spot this discussion and pipe in 
> here 
> somewhere, but in case not- he retrofitted his KR2S with new flaps 
> and 
> actuation and documented the performance differences and 
> installation quite 
> well.  The photos aren't out there anymore, but the discussion can 
> be found 
> using the KRNet search engine.  One such post is Jeff's from Sept. 
> 22, 2005, 
> when you search on "Jeff Scott flaps" at 
> http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/
> 
> Oscar Zuniga
> San Antonio, TX
> mailto: taildr...@hotmail.com
> website at http://www.flysquirrel.net

KR> Flaps

[Kenneth Wiltrout]

I used an extruded alum hinge flush mounted and had the metal shop put a 
very slight arc in the belly board to conform to the belly of the plane, my 
speed did not change at all by not fairing it in. Just not sure it is 
necessary with the air flow etc. One thing I wish I would have done was try 
the board before adding the lightening holes, maybe i'll put duct tape over 
the holes for a test.

Ken Wiltrout
Kutztown, Pa


- Original Message - 
From: "Larry Flesner" <fles...@verizon.net>
To: <b...@flyboybob.com>; "KRnet" <kr...@mylist.net>
Sent: Friday, August 18, 2006 6:38 PM
Subject: RE: KR> Flaps


> At 04:47 PM 8/18/2006, you wrote:
>>I have been reading this thread on flaps and nobody has mentioned one
>>extremely important factor.
>>  Dan made a
>>special point to show me the differance in approach attitude with and
>>without flaps.  The most important factor in using the "stock" flaps
>>according to Dan was that they lower the nose so that you can see where 
>>you
>>are going to land.
>>Bob Lee
> +++
>
> I guess my statement:
>
> "The entire runway, including the touchdown point are visible
> over the nose in my KR right down to the flare."
>
> didn't state it clearly enough.  That's exactly what happens when
> I lower the speed brake.  I actually get a "nose up" pitching movement
> when I lower the brake and I have to trim considerable nose down
> to keep the speed up.  My approach to landing visibility is as good
> as in a C-172.  I'm still convinced that the speed brake is the easiest
> to acquire drag available when you consider building complexity.  As
> for faring in a belly board, how much work is there to building a 1/4 inch
> ramp on the lead and trail edge of the board that conforms to the shape
> of the fuselage?
>
> Larry Flesner
>
>
>
> ___
> Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp
> to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net
> please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
>
>
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> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.11.3/423 - Release Date: 8/18/2006
> 

KR> Flaps

[Dan Heath]

What metal did you use and how did you attach the board? 

See N64KR at http://KRBuilder.org - Then click on the pics 
See you in Mt. Vernon - 2006 - KR Gathering
There is a time for building and a time for FLYING and the time for building
is OVER.
Daniel R. Heath - Lexington, SC
---Original Message---

From: Kenneth Wiltrout
List-Post: krnet@list.krnet.org
Date: 08/18/06 21:20:19
To: KRnet
Subject: Re: KR> Flaps

I used an extruded alum hinge flush mounted and had the metal shop put a
very slight arc in the belly board to conform to the belly of the plane, my
speed did not change at all by not fairing it in. Just not sure it is
necessary with the air flow etc. One thing I wish I would have done was try
the board before adding the lightening holes, maybe i'll put duct tape over
the holes for a test.

Ken Wiltrout
Kutztown, Pa


- Original Message -
From: "Larry Flesner" <fles...@verizon.net>
To: <b...@flyboybob.com>; "KRnet" <kr...@mylist.net>
Sent: Friday, August 18, 2006 6:38 PM
Subject: RE: KR> Flaps


> At 04:47 PM 8/18/2006, you wrote:
>>I have been reading this thread on flaps and nobody has mentioned one
>>extremely important factor.
>>  Dan made a
>>special point to show me the differance in approach attitude with and
>>without flaps.  The most important factor in using the "stock" flaps
>>according to Dan was that they lower the nose so that you can see where
>>you
>>are going to land.
>>Bob Lee
> +++
>
> I guess my statement:
>
> "The entire runway, including the touchdown point are visible
> over the nose in my KR right down to the flare."
>
> didn't state it clearly enough.  That's exactly what happens when
> I lower the speed brake.  I actually get a "nose up" pitching movement
> when I lower the brake and I have to trim considerable nose down
> to keep the speed up.  My approach to landing visibility is as good
> as in a C-172.  I'm still convinced that the speed brake is the easiest
> to acquire drag available when you consider building complexity.  As
> for faring in a belly board, how much work is there to building a 1/4 inch
> ramp on the lead and trail edge of the board that conforms to the shape
> of the fuselage?
>
> Larry Flesner
>
>
>
> ___
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> to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net
> please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
>
>
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> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.11.3/423 - Release Date: 8/18/2006
>


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KR> Flaps

[Mark Langford]

Kenneth Wiltrout wrote:

> Mark---Does it vibrate the S much when landing? The turf I landed on
> looked really nice but it was a wid ride.

Moontown is not much worse than asphalt except for the short length and the
road at one end, but my father's farm is a little crazy.  Nothing the plane
can't handle, and I can hang on pretty good.  Once you know your plane can
handle a 5.5g  landing, the rest is gravy...

Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama
see KR2S project N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford
email to N56ML "at" hiwaay.net
--

KR> Flaps/ T-18/ Bushby Mustang

[Phillip Matheson]

One more remark about flaps.  If someone wants a good example of a
combination flap speed brake, take a close look at a Thorpe T-18.
-
I agree with Colin. This should be a great system.
I have modified the small 7 inch cord standard kr2 flap to a 12 inch cord,
it runs from the back of the rear spar to T/Edge.
But I lowered the hinge pivot points so I can  latter add another 3 hinges
to the inside of the fuse and joint the two flaps together as the Busby
Mustang / T-18, if the 12 " flap is not enough.

I think this will be a great improvement on the standard
7 " cord flap.

I'm have problems with my photo's on my wed page at present, but will try
and fix that today. 

I should have the flap photo's on my web latter today, I will post a note
when  my wed is repaired.
Phillip Matheson
mathe...@dodo.com.au
Australia
VH PKR
See our engines  and kits at.
http://www.vw-engines.com/
http://www.homebuilt-aviation.com/
See my KR Construction web page at
http://mywebpage.netscape.com/FlyingKRPhil/VHPKR.html

KR> Flaps/ T-18/ Bushby Mustang

[Phillip Matheson]

I have placed two flap bracket photo's on my web page. as requested
http://mywebpage.netscape.com/FlyingKRPhil/VHPKR.html
  Click on wing Flap 12" 


Phillip Matheson
mathe...@dodo.com.au
Australia
VH PKR
See our engines  and kits at.
http://www.vw-engines.com/
http://www.homebuilt-aviation.com/
See my KR Construction web page at
http://mywebpage.netscape.com/FlyingKRPhil/VHPKR.html

KR> Flaps?

[Derek H. Hudeck]

Hello,
   I have read mixed messages regarding flaps on the KR-2. Does the
standard kit include flaps in the plans? If so are they any good? Are
there any popular ways to improve them? Thank you.

Derek Hudeck


-
This email was sent using SamMail.
   Sam Houston State University

KR> Flaps

[Colin & Bev Rainey]

Derek
I have heard the RR flaps by the later addon plans are small and not as 
effective as pilots are used to with other aircraft.  I personally do not know 
because I have a belly board speed brake.  It would be completely and totally 
possible to get the best of both worlds by having the small flaps for alittle 
supplemental lift, which would allow slowing down more on final, and the 
increased drag of the belly board and down pitching moment for better 
visibility from both with out increasing speed.  The idea of a well designed 
flap system on a GA ( General Aviation ) plane is to allow the pilot to create 
the same lift at a slower speed in order to allow him to lose more altitude in 
less distance, while providing better visibility for safety.  This allows for 
the pattern to be flown close to the runway, and altitude to be maintained 
until the descent is begun from the pattern abeam the point of intended 
touchdown.  An engine loss at this point virtually garuntees gliding to the 
runway.  Engines typically do not let go when running at a level RPM away from 
redline, until something upsets that equilibrium, like loss of oil pressure, or 
major change in power setting off setting the balance with an engine that 
already has a hidden issue.  Shock cooling is another problem which is why you 
should be taught to always perform a cruise descent from altitude, and power on 
approaches, with only some being done completely power off for practice in an 
emergency.  But even then you should clear the engine several times during the 
approach in order to keep the oil circulating and the carb clear.  BY keeping 
even alittle power on you protect the engine from making a drastic change from 
cruise RPM to idle abruptly.  Pilots in the past found out how bad this was 
when they suddenly realised that they needed to go around, applied full power 
and the engine would let go.  Flaps help this situation not occur because it 
allows you to be closer to the runway than you would have to be without them.  
I love my belly board and it doesn't have holes in it and deploys in 2 stages:  
25 degrees, and 50 degrees.

Colin & Bev Rainey
KR2(td) N96TA
Sanford, FL
crain...@cfl.rr.com
http://kr-builder.org/Colin/index.html

KR> Flaps?

[Orma]

Hello Derek
As to the first part about the plans, I can't answer.  In days gone by, the 
Flap plans were sold by RR because they were added later.  Perhaps someone 
with new plans can update that info.
As for the part about the value of flaps, there has been an ongoing debate 
within the group as to which is better between flaps and belly boards.  Mark 
Langford once said, perhaps a good choice is a split flap.  I don't know if 
anyone has installed both, so as to make a real comparison on the same 
plane.  Perhaps some of our members have flown enough KR's that he could 
give you an experienced answer.
As for my experience, I flew my KR without flaps and installed them later. 
The value of flaps and the belly board from all reports is in its ability to 
slow the aircraft and rotate the nose down.  Without flaps my original KR-2 
had a landing attitude with the nose so high that the cowl blocked the 
forward visibility.  On wide runways that was not a problem.  But, on narrow 
runways, say 25 ft., is was difficult to maintain alignment.  Without much 
drag, the KR would always speed up when you pointed the nose down to see. 
Some would say that there are tricks to landing, such as slipping .  I 
wanted the ability to see over the nose.  The standard RR retro fit flaps 
gave me that.  In a picture perfect sort of way I enjoy watching the shadow 
of my KR, formed by the sun at by back, touch down on the on the runway just 
ahead of me.

Orma
Southfield, MI
N110LR celebrating 20 years
Flying, flying and more flying
http://www.kr-2.aviation-mechanics.com/

KR> Flaps?

[Robert L. Stone]

 Derek,  

 From all the information I have been able to gather on this,  to reduce
the floating effect when landing a KR-2, it not only requires flaps but a
belly board as well.  The flaps on the KIR-2 are only from the rear spar to
the trailing edge and from the end of the wing stub to the fuselage.  Really
too small to be effective however I have heard many say that the belly
boards compensate for the small flaps.  I am sure there are many builders on
the net who would be glad to furnish you with the plans for the making and
installation of a belly board.



Bob Stone, Harker Heights, Tx

rsto...@hot.rr.com









--Original Message---



From: KRnet

List-Post: krnet@list.krnet.org
Date: 11/11/04 23:09:30

To: kr...@mylist.net

Subject: KR> Flaps?



Hello,

I have read mixed messages regarding flaps on the KR-2. Does the

standard kit include flaps in the plans? If so are they any good? Are

there any popular ways to improve them? Thank you.



Derek Hudeck





-

This email was sent using SamMail.

Sam Houston State University



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KR> Flaps? / Belly Board

[Mark Jones]

Here is how I made my belly board.
http://mywebpage.netscape.com/n886mj/bellyboard.html


Mark Jones (N886MJ) Waiting on inspection from FSDO
Wales, WI

-Original Message-
From: Robert L. Stone [mailto:rsto...@hot.rr.com] 

 Derek,  

 From all the information I have been able to gather on this,  to reduce
the floating effect when landing a KR-2, it not only requires flaps but a
belly board as well.  The flaps on the KIR-2 are only from the rear spar to
the trailing edge and from the end of the wing stub to the fuselage.  Really
too small to be effective however I have heard many say that the belly
boards compensate for the small flaps.  I am sure there are many builders on
the net who would be glad to furnish you with the plans for the making and
installation of a belly board.