RE: Third-party drives not permitted on Gen 11 servers
They're all but indicating that they don't want server business with their recent acquisitions, they're moving into 'services'. Kace and Perot? Vs EDS and 3Com? um, nice try =) -Drew -Original Message- From: linux-poweredge-boun...@dell.com [mailto:linux-poweredge-boun...@dell.com] On Behalf Of Jefferson Ogata Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2010 5:56 PM To: linux-poweredge@dell.com Subject: Re: Third-party drives not permitted on Gen 11 servers On 2010-02-16 17:46, Blake Hudson wrote: Attached was a pdf explaining the stringent quality control standards for Dell's HDDs. No apology, remorse, alternative solutions, etc. That's pretty funny considering the fairly high failure rate of Dell drives. If you actually check the SMART statistics you'll see the PERC often tries to pretend bad drives are just fine. For example I have a Dell-provided Seagate in a PE2950 right now that has logged 100 uncorrected write errors and 10 uncorrected read errors, and has failed a SMART long self-test. The PERC says 2 media errors and hasn't failed it out of the RAID. Well, I guess this is the year I start diving into HP or IBM gear. ___ Linux-PowerEdge mailing list Linux-PowerEdge@dell.com https://lists.us.dell.com/mailman/listinfo/linux-poweredge Please read the FAQ at http://lists.us.dell.com/faq ___ Linux-PowerEdge mailing list Linux-PowerEdge@dell.com https://lists.us.dell.com/mailman/listinfo/linux-poweredge Please read the FAQ at http://lists.us.dell.com/faq
Re: Third-party drives not permitted on Gen 11 servers
Hi there, On Thu, Feb 11, 2010 at 11:52:04AM +0100, Tino Schwarze wrote: I mailed my sales rep yesterday explaining my concerns and got a reply today that he'll ask the marketing department for an official statement. I got an answer today (German, English translation below): [...] Ich kann Sie voll und ganz verstehen. DELL hat sich entschieden an dieser Stelle den gleichen Weg zu gehen wie die Konkurrenz (HP,IBM). Das heisst auch bei den anderen werden Sie dort kein Glück haben was diese Sache an geht. Zur Zeit kann ich Ihnen dann nur den Perc 6i empfehlen solange dieser noch zur Verfügung steht. Falls Sie hierzu noch weitere Fragen haben sollten, dann rufen Sie mich bitte kurz an. Vielen Dank für Ihr Verständnis. P.S. ich hätte Ihnen gerne eine andere Auskunft gegeben :-/ Rough translation: I do fully understand you. DELL decided to go the same route as it's competitors (HP, IBM). Which means you'll be out of luck there as well regarding this issue. For the time being I can only recommend the PERC 6i as long as it is available. Please call me if you've got further questions. Thank you for your understanding. PS: I'd rather given you a different information. End of translation. Tino. -- What we nourish flourishes. - Was wir nähren erblüht. www.lichtkreis-chemnitz.de www.tisc.de ___ Linux-PowerEdge mailing list Linux-PowerEdge@dell.com https://lists.us.dell.com/mailman/listinfo/linux-poweredge Please read the FAQ at http://lists.us.dell.com/faq
Re: Third-party drives not permitted on Gen 11 servers
On Tue, Feb 16, 2010 at 3:35 AM, Tino Schwarze linux-poweredge.li...@tisc.de wrote: Hi there, On Thu, Feb 11, 2010 at 11:52:04AM +0100, Tino Schwarze wrote: I mailed my sales rep yesterday explaining my concerns and got a reply today that he'll ask the marketing department for an official statement. I got an answer today (German, English translation below): If only these were home-grade devices and not enterprise. We'd have to wait on the order of 2 days for some smart kid to come along and tweak a few lines in the firmware that do the check. :) -- Rahul ___ Linux-PowerEdge mailing list Linux-PowerEdge@dell.com https://lists.us.dell.com/mailman/listinfo/linux-poweredge Please read the FAQ at http://lists.us.dell.com/faq
Re: Third-party drives not permitted on Gen 11 servers
Original Message Subject: Re: Third-party drives not permitted on Gen 11 servers From: Jeff jlar...@gmail.com To: linux-poweredge@dell.com Date: Wednesday, February 10, 2010 1:24:38 PM On Wed, Feb 10, 2010 at 12:48 PM, Bond Masuda bond.mas...@jlbond.com wrote: however, bottom line is this: Dell is trying to increase profits and they see this lock-in as a potential method to achieve that goal. if Dell customers want to see this change, you'll just need to show Dell that it doesn't accomplish that goal. I.e., stop buying Dell, cancel your orders, etc. anything short of this will not change how a business operates. no amount of complaining on this mailing list is going to make this change until dollars are at stake. +1. We are all preaching to the choir here. This list is not the best forum for getting our message across to Dell. I just wrote to my Dell Sales rep informing her that future sales are in jeopardy. Maybe if we all do that, they might take notice. Jeff ___ RAM and HDDs are the most common upgrades we perform on our servers. At least half of our servers get upgrades of one or both of these. I typically buy qualified RAM from Crucial and purchase HDDs from a local or online vendor as a commodity item. This often occurs several years after initial purchase when the servers are re-purposed. We wrote our sales rep regarding the topic of this thread and his response was basically: Yes, we are doing this... It's called HDD lock strategy which blocks non-Dell certified HDDs from being used with these controllers.. Attached was a pdf explaining the stringent quality control standards for Dell's HDDs. No apology, remorse, alternative solutions, etc. Vendor lock in is not an option I am willing to support. Either we will purchase RAID controllers that support standard drives with our Dell servers or we will purchase non-Dell servers. --Blake ___ Linux-PowerEdge mailing list Linux-PowerEdge@dell.com https://lists.us.dell.com/mailman/listinfo/linux-poweredge Please read the FAQ at http://lists.us.dell.com/faq
Re: Third-party drives not permitted on Gen 11 servers
On 2010-02-16 17:46, Blake Hudson wrote: Attached was a pdf explaining the stringent quality control standards for Dell's HDDs. No apology, remorse, alternative solutions, etc. That's pretty funny considering the fairly high failure rate of Dell drives. If you actually check the SMART statistics you'll see the PERC often tries to pretend bad drives are just fine. For example I have a Dell-provided Seagate in a PE2950 right now that has logged 100 uncorrected write errors and 10 uncorrected read errors, and has failed a SMART long self-test. The PERC says 2 media errors and hasn't failed it out of the RAID. Well, I guess this is the year I start diving into HP or IBM gear. ___ Linux-PowerEdge mailing list Linux-PowerEdge@dell.com https://lists.us.dell.com/mailman/listinfo/linux-poweredge Please read the FAQ at http://lists.us.dell.com/faq
Re: Third-party drives not permitted on Gen 11 servers
On 2/16/2010 4:35 AM, Tino Schwarze wrote: Hi there, On Thu, Feb 11, 2010 at 11:52:04AM +0100, Tino Schwarze wrote: I mailed my sales rep yesterday explaining my concerns and got a reply today that he'll ask the marketing department for an official statement. I got an answer today (German, English translation below): [...] Ich kann Sie voll und ganz verstehen. DELL hat sich entschieden an dieser Stelle den gleichen Weg zu gehen wie die Konkurrenz (HP,IBM). Das heisst auch bei den anderen werden Sie dort kein Glück haben was diese Sache an geht. Zur Zeit kann ich Ihnen dann nur den Perc 6i empfehlen solange dieser noch zur Verfügung steht. Falls Sie hierzu noch weitere Fragen haben sollten, dann rufen Sie mich bitte kurz an. Vielen Dank für Ihr Verständnis. P.S. ich hätte Ihnen gerne eine andere Auskunft gegeben :-/ Rough translation: I do fully understand you. DELL decided to go the same route as it's competitors (HP, IBM). Which means you'll be out of luck there as well regarding this issue. For the time being I can only recommend the PERC 6i as long as it is available. Please call me if you've got further questions. Thank you for your understanding. PS: I'd rather given you a different information. End of translation. Tino. I think i'll clal hpo and see if what this person is saying is actually true. ___ Linux-PowerEdge mailing list Linux-PowerEdge@dell.com https://lists.us.dell.com/mailman/listinfo/linux-poweredge Please read the FAQ at http://lists.us.dell.com/faq
RE: Third-party drives not permitted on Gen 11 servers
On Wed, Feb 10, 2010 at 11:36:54AM -0500, J. Epperson wrote: And UPSs! We must ensure that we have appropriately proprietarily conditioned power for our proprietary servers. And no third party replacement batteries either. Lord only knows what sort of corruption that could lead to. -- And, for our own good, we must be restricted to using Dell-branded enclosures... we can't take the risk that the holes in a lesser product might be out-of-kilter, slightly tweaking the chassis, causing memory and cards to edge out of their slots. Better get Dell-branded network cables, too. And Dell KVMs, Dell keyboards, Dell mice... Dell mousepads, too, just to absolutely ensure a positive computing experience... --- If I don't drive my dell car to my dell-tacenter I could face unintended acceleration!!! -Drew ___ Linux-PowerEdge mailing list Linux-PowerEdge@dell.com https://lists.us.dell.com/mailman/listinfo/linux-poweredge Please read the FAQ at http://lists.us.dell.com/faq
Re: Third-party drives not permitted on Gen 11 servers
Hi, Anyone know if the H200 also has this problem, e.g. I think this is currently the lowest configuration on the R510? Thanks, Sabuj Pattanayek ___ Linux-PowerEdge mailing list Linux-PowerEdge@dell.com https://lists.us.dell.com/mailman/listinfo/linux-poweredge Please read the FAQ at http://lists.us.dell.com/faq
Re: Third-party drives not permitted on Gen 11 servers
On 2/12/2010 3:44 PM, Sabuj Pattanayek wrote: Hi, Anyone know if the H200 also has this problem, e.g. I think this is currently the lowest configuration on the R510? Thanks, Sabuj Pattanayek ___ Linux-PowerEdge mailing list Linux-PowerEdge@dell.com https://lists.us.dell.com/mailman/listinfo/linux-poweredge Please read the FAQ at http://lists.us.dell.com/faq http://support.dell.com/support/edocs/storage/Storlink/H200/en/UG/HTML/features.htm#wp1043338 I'll say yes it does suffer from this nonsense. ___ Linux-PowerEdge mailing list Linux-PowerEdge@dell.com https://lists.us.dell.com/mailman/listinfo/linux-poweredge Please read the FAQ at http://lists.us.dell.com/faq
Re: Third-party drives not permitted on Gen 11 servers
On 2/12/2010 3:44 PM, Sabuj Pattanayek wrote: Hi, Anyone know if the H200 also has this problem, e.g. I think this is currently the lowest configuration on the R510? Thanks, Sabuj Pattanayek ___ Linux-PowerEdge mailing list Linux-PowerEdge@dell.com https://lists.us.dell.com/mailman/listinfo/linux-poweredge Please read the FAQ at http://lists.us.dell.com/faq whoops i was wrong: According to the linked document: Unsupported Drives Drives that are not certified by Dell are reported in the *BIOS Configuration Utility*, also known as CtrlC. To view unsupported drives: 1. In the *BIOS Configuration Utility*, navigate to the *SAS Topology* screen. 2. Select the unsupported drive and press AltD to view the *Device Properties *screen. The drive is marked as *Uncertified* in the *Device Properties *screen. Drives that are not certified by Dell are not blocked and you can use them at your own risk. ___ Linux-PowerEdge mailing list Linux-PowerEdge@dell.com https://lists.us.dell.com/mailman/listinfo/linux-poweredge Please read the FAQ at http://lists.us.dell.com/faq
Re: Third-party drives not permitted on Gen 11 servers
http://support.dell.com/support/edocs/storage/Storlink/H200/en/UG/HTML/features.htm#wp1043338 I'll say yes it does suffer from this nonsense. Dell provides this information in the above URL:- Unsupported Drives Drives that are not certified by Dell are reported in the BIOS Configuration Utility, also known as CtrlC. To view unsupported drives: 1. In the BIOS Configuration Utility, navigate to the SAS Topology screen. 2. Select the unsupported drive and press AltD to view the Device Properties screen. The drive is marked as Uncertified in the Device Properties screen. Drives that are not certified by Dell are not blocked and you can use them at your own risk. - So, are uncertified drives blocked or not blocked ?? -- marios - Original Message From: William Warren hescomins...@emmanuelcomputerconsulting.com To: linux-powere...@lists.us.dell.com linux-powere...@lists.us.dell.com Sent: Sat, February 13, 2010 7:24:16 AM Subject: Re: Third-party drives not permitted on Gen 11 servers On 2/12/2010 3:44 PM, Sabuj Pattanayek wrote: Hi, Anyone know if the H200 also has this problem, e.g. I think this is currently the lowest configuration on the R510? Thanks, Sabuj Pattanayek ___ Linux-PowerEdge mailing list Linux-PowerEdge@dell.com https://lists.us.dell.com/mailman/listinfo/linux-poweredge Please read the FAQ at http://lists.us.dell.com/faq http://support.dell.com/support/edocs/storage/Storlink/H200/en/UG/HTML/features.htm#wp1043338 I'll say yes it does suffer from this nonsense. ___ Linux-PowerEdge mailing list Linux-PowerEdge@dell.com https://lists.us.dell.com/mailman/listinfo/linux-poweredge Please read the FAQ at http://lists.us.dell.com/faq ___ Linux-PowerEdge mailing list Linux-PowerEdge@dell.com https://lists.us.dell.com/mailman/listinfo/linux-poweredge Please read the FAQ at http://lists.us.dell.com/faq
Re: Third-party drives not permitted on Gen 11 servers
Hi there, I mailed my sales rep yesterday explaining my concerns and got a reply today that he'll ask the marketing department for an official statement. Tino. -- What we nourish flourishes. - Was wir nähren erblüht. www.lichtkreis-chemnitz.de www.tisc.de ___ Linux-PowerEdge mailing list Linux-PowerEdge@dell.com https://lists.us.dell.com/mailman/listinfo/linux-poweredge Please read the FAQ at http://lists.us.dell.com/faq
Re: Third-party drives not permitted on Gen 11 servers
I agree with what everyone else is saying on this subject. I contacted my Dell account manager and they suggested that I post on http://www.ideastorm.com/ I didn't find an existing thread so I started one: http://dellideas.force.com/ideaView?id=0877dwTAAQ -Andy ___ Linux-PowerEdge mailing list Linux-PowerEdge@dell.com https://lists.us.dell.com/mailman/listinfo/linux-poweredge Please read the FAQ at http://lists.us.dell.com/faq
Re: Third-party drives not permitted on Gen 11 servers
On Thu, Feb 11, 2010 at 3:50 PM, Andy Krantz an...@digitalcyclone.com wrote: I agree with what everyone else is saying on this subject. I contacted my Dell account manager and they suggested that I post on http://www.ideastorm.com/ I didn't find an existing thread so I started one: http://dellideas.force.com/ideaView?id=0877dwTAAQ +1 for contacting my Sales Rep. I've also posted on the Beowulf list where a lot of us use Dell hardware. -- Rahul ___ Linux-PowerEdge mailing list Linux-PowerEdge@dell.com https://lists.us.dell.com/mailman/listinfo/linux-poweredge Please read the FAQ at http://lists.us.dell.com/faq
Re: Third-party drives not permitted on Gen 11 servers
On Tue, Feb 9, 2010 at 4:17 PM, howard_sho...@dell.com wrote: There are a number of benefits for using Dell qualified drives in particular ensuring a positive experience and protecting our data. While SAS and SATA are industry standards there are differences which occur in implementation. An analogy is that English is spoken in the UK, US and Australia. While the language is generally the same, there are subtle differences in word usage which can lead to confusion. Sure. But I don't refuse to speak to a person from the UK or Australia do I? Why not learn to work with all the dialects? Besides what's next? Dell certified power-cords?!? Or mouse-pads? -- Rahul ___ Linux-PowerEdge mailing list Linux-PowerEdge@dell.com https://lists.us.dell.com/mailman/listinfo/linux-poweredge Please read the FAQ at http://lists.us.dell.com/faq
RE: Third-party drives not permitted on Gen 11 servers
Thank you, Howard for some lovely corporate spin. On Tue, 9 Feb 2010, howard_sho...@dell.com wrote: Thank you very much for your comments and feedback regarding exclusive use of Dell drives. It is common practice in enterprise storage solutions to limit drive support to only those drives which have been qualified by the vendor. Dell is no NetApp. Having used solutions from both, there's a world of a difference. You are kidding yourself if you think you're on a nearby practice ground, let alone in the same ballpark. There are a number of benefits for using Dell qualified drives in particular ensuring a positive experience and protecting our data. Your data? If you want to protect your data, do it at your expense. I'd rather protect my data much more cost effectively and much more flexibly - without a vendor lock-in on drives; or, where requirements justify it, choose a real enterprise storage solution. -Ronan ___ Linux-PowerEdge mailing list Linux-PowerEdge@dell.com https://lists.us.dell.com/mailman/listinfo/linux-poweredge Please read the FAQ at http://lists.us.dell.com/faq
RE: Third-party drives not permitted on Gen 11 servers
On Tue, 2010-02-09 at 16:17 -0600, howard_sho...@dell.com wrote: Thank you very much for your comments and feedback regarding exclusive use of Dell drives. It is common practice in enterprise storage solutions to limit drive support to only those drives which have been qualified by the vendor. In the case of Dell's PERC RAID controllers, we began informing customers when a non-Dell drive was detected with the introduction of PERC5 RAID controllers in early 2006. With the introduction of the PERC H700/H800 controllers, we began enabling only the use of Dell qualified drives. There are a number of benefits for using Dell qualified drives in particular ensuring a positive experience and protecting our data. While SAS and SATA are industry standards there are differences which occur in implementation. An analogy is that English is spoken in the UK, US and Australia. While the language is generally the same, there are subtle differences in word usage which can lead to confusion. This exists in storage subsystems as well. As these subsystems become more capable, faster and more complex, these differences in implementation can have greater impact. Benefits of Dell's Hard Disk and SSD drives are outlined in a white paper on Dell's web site at http://www.dell.com/downloads/global/products/pvaul/en/dell-hard-drives-pov.pdf We anxiously wait for further lock-ins. I do have a recommendation to be considered on marketoids' closest quarterly meeting: support for Dell-blessed expansion cards only. No more wild expansion PCI cards - Delltwork Dellterface cards should be enough for everyone! With God's help all Dell customers will be connecting to Dellternet over time. -- Mirosław Psyborg Jaworski GCS/IT d- s+:+ a C++$ UBI$ P+++$ L- E--- W++(+++)$ N++ o+ K- w-- O- M- V- PS+ PE++ Y+ PGP t 5? X+ R++ !tv b++(+++) DI++ D+ G e* h++ r+++ y? The trouble with children is that they're not returnable. ___ Linux-PowerEdge mailing list Linux-PowerEdge@dell.com https://lists.us.dell.com/mailman/listinfo/linux-poweredge Please read the FAQ at http://lists.us.dell.com/faq
Re: Third-party drives not permitted on Gen 11 servers
to the list this time (sorry Eric ;-) ... On Tue, Feb 09, 2010 at 11:15:55PM -0600, Eric Rostetter scribbled in RE: Third-party drives not permitted on Gen 11 servers: Quoting howard_sho...@dell.com: In the case of Dell's PERC RAID controllers, we began informing customers when a non-Dell drive was detected with the introduction of PERC5 RAID controllers in early 2006. I'm fine with this. And I'm fine if your tech support won't support that configuration, or if that configuration voids my warrenty, and even if your OpenManage software won't support it. But I still want to be able to make it work in the machine at my own peril... I don't mind if I have to do something in the PERC controller setup menus to force it to accept the non-Dell drive. I don't care if I have to set a jumper on the PERC card to get it to accept the non-Dell drive. I'm willing to jump through hoops to disable this in the rare case I need to. But I still want that option. I agree. This isn't proprietary software, it's hardware -- I didn't buy a license to use the application, I bought a physical piece of hardware, it's _mine_ -- I should be able to any damn thing I like with it, especially when it's something standards compliant, like putting a SATA disk into a SATA drive bay. If neither piece of kit are faulty, _it_should_just_work_ (configuration aside). While I would settle for the situation where I have to dig into the RAID BIOS somewhere to allow 3rd party disks, I wouldn't be particularly happy about it. At most there should be an informational notice that alerts me to the fact that in that configuration the disks themselves wouldn't be covered by Dell's warranty (using this scenario). I would also disagree if it voided any warranty -- I'm not a child, I've worked in this business for years, I'm trained in this stuff, swapping a disk out doesn't require a PhD, neither does realising that this is an abhorrent business practice with no true merit to the customer. Cheers. Dameon. -- ooOoo Dr. Dameon Wagner, Senior ICT Specialist, Depts. of Computer Science Information Systems, Rhodes University, Grahamstown, South Africa. :Beta tester for Pegasus Mercury/32 (www.pmail.com): ooOoo ___ Linux-PowerEdge mailing list Linux-PowerEdge@dell.com https://lists.us.dell.com/mailman/listinfo/linux-poweredge Please read the FAQ at http://lists.us.dell.com/faq
Re: Third-party drives not permitted on Gen 11 servers
I have PowerEdge Server with DELL certified Seagate harddisk. I bought it from DELL. The DELL certified Seagate harddisk has lock problem 1/320 probability every power-on spinup. http://seagate.custkb.com/seagate/crm/selfservice/search.jsp?DocId=207931NewLang=enHilite= http://slashdot.org/~maxtorman But DELL support says, Out of Warranty. What is DELL certified ? What is DELL warranty ? I'm sad, but REAL. I would like to remove the restrictions PERC H700 and H800 cards. ___ Linux-PowerEdge mailing list Linux-PowerEdge@dell.com https://lists.us.dell.com/mailman/listinfo/linux-poweredge Please read the FAQ at http://lists.us.dell.com/faq
RE: Third-party drives not permitted on Gen 11 servers
Reminds me of my campus' IT urban folklore about the memory upgrade in an old GX360 big iron that used to run here - where IBM sold campus the upgrade and sent a team to flip the DIP switch to ENABLE it since it was already installed... this is just as predatory. Have a IBM Z890 here and that's the case. In our case they didn't even send an engineer or team, they did it remotely through its dial home feature... -Original Message- From: linux-poweredge-boun...@dell.com [mailto:linux-poweredge-boun...@dell.com] On Behalf Of Doug Simmons Sent: Sunday, February 07, 2010 3:36 AM To: linux-poweredge@dell.com Subject: RE: Third-party drives not permitted on Gen 11 servers Holy crap. Dell's gone IBM on us! I don't want to see this happen. Dell, are you listening? sigh Reminds me of my campus' IT urban folklore about the memory upgrade in an old GX360 big iron that used to run here - where IBM sold campus the upgrade and sent a team to flip the DIP switch to ENABLE it since it was already installed... this is just as predatory. And I just got a rackfull of R710's Doug I hate computers Simmons SIUC From: linux-poweredge-boun...@dell.com on behalf of Steve Thompson Sent: Sat 2/6/2010 4:37 PM To: Robin Bowes Cc: linux-poweredge@dell.com Subject: Re: Third-party drives not permitted on Gen 11 servers On Sat, 6 Feb 2010, Robin Bowes wrote: Where did you see the caddies available? In addition to discount technology, as someone else mentioned, I have bought them from: http://www.servernexus.com/proddetail.php?prod=F9541 http://www.scsitray.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=105 Steve ___ Linux-PowerEdge mailing list Linux-PowerEdge@dell.com https://lists.us.dell.com/mailman/listinfo/linux-poweredge Please read the FAQ at http://lists.us.dell.com/faq ___ Linux-PowerEdge mailing list Linux-PowerEdge@dell.com https://lists.us.dell.com/mailman/listinfo/linux-poweredge Please read the FAQ at http://lists.us.dell.com/faq The information in this email is confidential and may be legally privileged. It is intended solely for the addressee. Access to this email by anyone else is unauthorized. If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying, distribution or any action taken or omitted to be taken in reliance on it, is prohibited and may be unlawful. If you are not the intended addressee please contact the sender and dispose of this e-mail. Thank you. ___ Linux-PowerEdge mailing list Linux-PowerEdge@dell.com https://lists.us.dell.com/mailman/listinfo/linux-poweredge Please read the FAQ at http://lists.us.dell.com/faq
RE: Third-party drives not permitted on Gen 11 servers
Quoting Ronan Mullally ro...@iol.ie: Dell is no NetApp. Having used solutions from both, there's a world of a difference. You are kidding yourself if you think you're on a nearby practice ground, let alone in the same ballpark. Dell does sell enterprise storage solutions like NetApp (some their own, some co-branded). Think about their SAN and DAS boxes... I'd have little troble with such a policy on their SAN's for example. But, a Poweredge Server is no NetApp. That is for sure... I find it funny that they use the phrase enterprise storage solution when refering to a Poweredge Server... Many of my PE servers store no data except the OS. I still want to mirror the OS in case of failure, but the storage is on a SAN/NAS elsewhere, not in the PE server... So trying to compare a PE Server used this way (not for storage) to a NetApp is apples to oranges. This is really true for PE 1U servers with only a small number of bays... -Ronan -- Eric Rostetter The Department of Physics The University of Texas at Austin Go Longhorns! ___ Linux-PowerEdge mailing list Linux-PowerEdge@dell.com https://lists.us.dell.com/mailman/listinfo/linux-poweredge Please read the FAQ at http://lists.us.dell.com/faq
RE: Third-party drives not permitted on Gen 11 servers
Quoting Mirosław Jaworski m...@ikp.pl: We anxiously wait for further lock-ins. I had a slippery slope rant in my last email, but I decided to remove it before sending... See you think a bit alike... The funny thing is, when we ran DEC and SUN stuff, all Dell ever told us was why we should switch to their Industry Standard hardware; how great it would be to use Industry Standard equipment because we could buy stuff off-the-shelve and not have to buy from a specific vendor; how using their Industry Standard computers would remove software incompatibilities and such... So much for Dell's Industry Standard hardware, huh? Wonder what their new sales pitch will be now? Maybe they can steal a line from the diaper commercial (yeah, think about it...)... Dell -- We're a big kid now... Anyway, again, I don't much care, I'll just buy anything new with the older PERC 6 cards for now. I know the bandwidth is better in the new PERC cards, but I can deal with the current speed... If/When Dell only offers lock-in PERC's, well, I'll figure out what to do then... -- Eric Rostetter The Department of Physics The University of Texas at Austin Go Longhorns! ___ Linux-PowerEdge mailing list Linux-PowerEdge@dell.com https://lists.us.dell.com/mailman/listinfo/linux-poweredge Please read the FAQ at http://lists.us.dell.com/faq
Re: Third-party drives not permitted on Gen 11 servers
On 2/10/2010 12:20 PM, Eric Rostetter wrote: Quoting Mirosław Jaworskim...@ikp.pl: We anxiously wait for further lock-ins. I had a slippery slope rant in my last email, but I decided to remove it before sending... See you think a bit alike... The funny thing is, when we ran DEC and SUN stuff, all Dell ever told us was why we should switch to their Industry Standard hardware; how great it would be to use Industry Standard equipment because we could buy stuff off-the-shelve and not have to buy from a specific vendor; how using their Industry Standard computers would remove software incompatibilities and such... So much for Dell's Industry Standard hardware, huh? Wonder what their new sales pitch will be now? Maybe they can steal a line from the diaper commercial (yeah, think about it...)... Dell -- We're a big kid now... Anyway, again, I don't much care, I'll just buy anything new with the older PERC 6 cards for now. I know the bandwidth is better in the new PERC cards, but I can deal with the current speed... If/When Dell only offers lock-in PERC's, well, I'll figure out what to do then... that's when you don't order a raid card from dell and go third party..until Dell has their motherboards reject non-Dell hardware ___ Linux-PowerEdge mailing list Linux-PowerEdge@dell.com https://lists.us.dell.com/mailman/listinfo/linux-poweredge Please read the FAQ at http://lists.us.dell.com/faq
Re: Third-party drives not permitted on Gen 11 servers
Quoting s.mishima s.mish...@gmail.com: I have PowerEdge Server with DELL certified Seagate harddisk. I bought it from DELL. The DELL certified Seagate harddisk has lock problem 1/320 probability every power-on spinup. Yeah, I bought two of those systems too. ;) Again, thought about writing this in my post, but decided against it... But DELL support says, Out of Warranty. Yeah, fortunately it is a firmware upgrade you can do without warranty. In fact, Dell wouldn't replace them at all, only provide the firmware update. What is DELL certified ? What is DELL warranty ? The proper question here is, why didn't Dell's extensive testing for certification help catch this issue? The warranty doesn't really apply, since it is just a firmware upgrade, and the firmware is free... -- Eric Rostetter The Department of Physics The University of Texas at Austin Go Longhorns! ___ Linux-PowerEdge mailing list Linux-PowerEdge@dell.com https://lists.us.dell.com/mailman/listinfo/linux-poweredge Please read the FAQ at http://lists.us.dell.com/faq
RE: Third-party drives not permitted on Gen 11 servers
Greetings I've been stewing on this topic for a while; and waiting/hoping that someone from Dell would chime in with their perspective. Now that Howard has stepped in to present the company position, it is time for me to give some feedback so that the Dell representatives following the thread see the diversity of their customers who do not like this HDD compatibility policy. I manage all the computer systems for a small consulting firm. As our firm grew during the early years we realized that we needed a server to make is most efficient for the staff to work together as a team, be able to backup all of our data, and for reliability. We purchased our first Dell server (PE2600) in early 2004 and installed RHEL3. I had never run Linux before and have learned everything from the ground up, hands-on, with a lot of help from this and the RedHat discussion lists. I bought Dell because their server systems had a reputation for being reliable, and there was some support structure with Linux. I have always bought Dell desktops and have rarely had a problem with them. As our work grew, we added more drives to that PE2600 to expand our storage; most recently last year. At the time I purchased the additional drives (Dec. 2008), Dell no longer offered the same drive sizes and speeds that I had in this server and I had to go to a different distributer to get them. I went to Dell first to get the drives, and was willing to pay what I knew to be a slight/moderate premium for the drives, but was turned away. Apparently our server was already too old for Dell to provide the drive support. This same server is still running rock solid and is providing more services to our staff (remote VPN access) and clients (FTP) than its original purpose as a file server. I expect that this server will still continue to run and be functional to our company for more years to come; however, I recognize that it is near time to relegate it to backup and secondary duties, and upgrade my hardware and OS. I have been planning on purchasing a new Dell Server (looking at the T610/T710) and have been trying to estimate our needs in terms of storage space and services for the next 5+ years. I expect that our next server purchase will be used for probably a minimum of 5-7 years before it is replaced. That is also why I am waiting to make my hardware purchase after RHEL6 is released. If my next Dell server includes a H700 controller I am very concerned that if I need additional, or replacement, drives 4+ years down the line, will Dell still be supplying them or will they have been dropped from the parts inventory because the server is too old. If Dell is going to lock us in to their drives, then can they guarantee us that those drives will be available 4, 5, or even 7 years later. I don't want to have to over-buy storage now, when it isn't needed, just because it may not be available from Dell later. And if it isn't available from Dell when I need it later, I don't want to be telling my partners that we need to replace our server because we can't get a couple of spare drives for our perfectly good working server. I read the white paper referenced in Howard's post. It presents a very good case for why Dell might charge a slight/moderate premium for purchasing drives from them versus another distributer, and I am glad to know that this level of testing and documentation is done. However, as I believe someone has already pointed out, if these drives are so superior to a non-Dell commodity drive, then Dell should be providing warranties lengths that are commensurate with this superior quality. A 1-year warranty on a Dell drive versus a 3-5 year warranty on a similar model commodity drive doesn't seem to match the implied quality differences. I want to make note that I see many good benefits to running a Dell server for my situation. I like the OMSA product; it has made it very easy for me to monitor my server and perform drive upgrades and change hot-spares. I like where Dell is going with the firmware updates repository. It is these types of things that make it efficient and easy for me (a novice and part-time system administrator) to manage the system, and has made me consider staying with a Dell product for my next server purchase. However, because our servers live a long life I am having to reconsider the server options that are available to me in the coming months. I implore Dell to reconsider this hardware policy of requiring the use of Dell-only drives. I think it is reasonable for a company to restrict support on non-Dell drives, but please give us users the option of being able to use an equivalent model commodity drive. If I have to explain to my partners in 4 or 5 years that we have to replace our server in order to expand our storage because the Dell is no longer supplying replacement drives and a commodity drive won't work, I can already guess that
Re: Third-party drives not permitted on Gen 11 servers
On Wed, Feb 10, 2010 at 11:48 AM, Bond Masuda bond.mas...@jlbond.com wrote: however, bottom line is this: Dell is trying to increase profits and they see this lock-in as a potential method to achieve that goal. if Dell customers want to see this change, you'll just need to show Dell that it doesn't accomplish that goal. I.e., stop buying Dell, cancel your orders, etc. anything short of this will not change how a business operates. no amount of complaining on this mailing list is going to make this change until dollars are at stake. Let me chime in here; after recently shopping between Sun, Dell, and several other vendors for a 64-TB storage server, I opted to go with a non-Dell solution. The research lab this hardware is intended for already has several MD-1000 shelves, so I was initially leaning strongly towards Dell. Although I made the choice prior to hearing about this fiasco, this has wiped away any doubts I had about whether I made the right decision in moving away from Dell. Although Dell hardware has long been my first choice in the server room, this policy is going to be a big mark against them in the future. -- Systems Programmer, Principal Computer Systems Group College of Engineering The University of Arizona ___ Linux-PowerEdge mailing list Linux-PowerEdge@dell.com https://lists.us.dell.com/mailman/listinfo/linux-poweredge Please read the FAQ at http://lists.us.dell.com/faq
Re: Third-party drives not permitted on Gen 11 servers
On Wed, Feb 10, 2010 at 12:48 PM, Bond Masuda bond.mas...@jlbond.com wrote: however, bottom line is this: Dell is trying to increase profits and they see this lock-in as a potential method to achieve that goal. if Dell customers want to see this change, you'll just need to show Dell that it doesn't accomplish that goal. I.e., stop buying Dell, cancel your orders, etc. anything short of this will not change how a business operates. no amount of complaining on this mailing list is going to make this change until dollars are at stake. +1. We are all preaching to the choir here. This list is not the best forum for getting our message across to Dell. I just wrote to my Dell Sales rep informing her that future sales are in jeopardy. Maybe if we all do that, they might take notice. Jeff ___ Linux-PowerEdge mailing list Linux-PowerEdge@dell.com https://lists.us.dell.com/mailman/listinfo/linux-poweredge Please read the FAQ at http://lists.us.dell.com/faq
Re: Third-party drives not permitted on Gen 11 servers
On Tuesday 09 February 2010, William Warren wrote: On 2/9/2010 5:17 PM, howard_sho...@dell.com wrote: Thank you very much for your comments and feedback regarding exclusive use of Dell drives. It is common practice in enterprise storage solutions to limit drive support to only those drives which have been qualified by the vendor. In the case of Dell's PERC RAID controllers, we began informing customers when a non-Dell drive was detected with the introduction of PERC5 RAID controllers in early 2006. With the introduction of the PERC H700/H800 controllers, we began enabling only the use of Dell qualified drives. There are a number of benefits for using Dell qualified drives in particular ensuring a positive experience and protecting our data. ... This is common reasoning given for any vendor that starts practicing lock-in. Dell has just gone down that road. I'll either not buy Dell servers OR order them without your controllers and use some of my own. If they'll allow you to use non-Dell controllers... /Peter Over the years proprietary solutions are only cash cows and rarely if ever really live up to the claims put forward by the vendor. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Linux-PowerEdge mailing list Linux-PowerEdge@dell.com https://lists.us.dell.com/mailman/listinfo/linux-poweredge Please read the FAQ at http://lists.us.dell.com/faq
Re: Third-party drives not permitted on Gen 11 servers
On Wed, Feb 10, 2010 at 2:01 PM, Peter Kjellstrom c...@nsc.liu.se wrote: On Tuesday 09 February 2010, William Warren wrote: On 2/9/2010 5:17 PM, howard_sho...@dell.com wrote: Thank you very much for your comments and feedback regarding exclusive use of Dell drives. It is common practice in enterprise storage solutions to limit drive support to only those drives which have been qualified by the vendor. In the case of Dell's PERC RAID controllers, we began informing customers when a non-Dell drive was detected with the introduction of PERC5 RAID controllers in early 2006. With the introduction of the PERC H700/H800 controllers, we began enabling only the use of Dell qualified drives. There are a number of benefits for using Dell qualified drives in particular ensuring a positive experience and protecting our data. ... This is common reasoning given for any vendor that starts practicing lock-in. Dell has just gone down that road. I'll either not buy Dell servers OR order them without your controllers and use some of my own. If they'll allow you to use non-Dell controllers... /Peter As an anecdote, the company I worked for ordered a MD1000. We are a fairly small company with 6 servers (some Dell, some not) in production. Like some of the other people who have posted to this list, we have to keep using our servers as long as they are working and can perfom the required tasks. We don't get to buy new ones just because our warranty ends or there is something new and shiny out. At the time we ordered our MD1000, we had two, new 1U HP servers that were not in use and were more than adequte for our needs. Before ordering the MD1000, we had Dell staff confirm to use that it had standard SAS connections. We bought a couple of LSI SAS cards (knowing that the PERCs were basically rebranded LSI cards with Dell mojo installed on them) and ordered the MD1000. Since the MD1000 would be responsible for our most important data and databases, we got the highest level of support offered (24x7 4 hour on-site response) on it. We used it for a while with no issues and even used our own drives in addition to the 2 we originally ordered from Dell with it. All was well until it stopped seeing any new drives we put into it. We called Dell support. We were first told that since were running a non-Dell supported Linux (ubuntu) that we would have to boot to their Live CD to do testing, which we did. We did a little testing with no immediate clues as to the issue and were then told that since we were using a non-Dell server, it wouldn't be supported. We got a Dell server and hooked it up with one of our LSI cards. We were then told that since we didn't have a Dell PERC card in it, it wasn't supported, so we switched in a PERC card. Then we were told it wouldn't be supported because we didn't have drives from Dell with Dell firmware in it. Luckally after all this time, we figured out the issue (you can't combine SAS and SATA drives on the same enclosure side without the Dell firmware and their special interposer boards), so we just told Dell to forget it and split the enclosure and used SAS in half and SATA in the other half. What this taught us is that unless we were 100% Dell solutions all the way thorugh, we could expect no help from them, so we just didn't renew our MD1000 service contract and never buy any upgraded service plans anymore. As many have said, if they want to not support third party drives or even have a warning that goes by at boot or something, that is fine, but they should still allow the drives. It is my opinion (and maybe I am wrong) that a large majority of Dell's server business is small to medium businesses. Basically the people who can't afford IBM, Sun, high-end HP, etc. but need a few, good reliable servers. If they decide to commit to this route where they are the sole provider for drives, then I know my company will have to look elsewhere. The crazy markup plus the fact that I can't be guarenteed that I will still be able to get a drive at a reasonable price in a few years makes it where I couldn't commit. I know my company probably doesn't matter a lot to Dell, we probably only buy 1-2 servers a year at most and maybe 2-3 desktops, but if every small business similar to mine starts switching, I would bet that would start to add up. Anyway, it will be interesting to see how this plays out. Preston ___ Linux-PowerEdge mailing list Linux-PowerEdge@dell.com https://lists.us.dell.com/mailman/listinfo/linux-poweredge Please read the FAQ at http://lists.us.dell.com/faq
RE: Third-party drives not permitted on Gen 11 servers
On Wed, February 10, 2010 12:27, Joe Gooch wrote: -Original Message- From: linux-poweredge-boun...@dell.com [mailto:linux-poweredge- boun...@dell.com] On Behalf Of J. Epperson Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 2010 11:37 AM To: Seriously, some of us used to re-flash some of the older LSI PERCs with the firmware for their LSI-branded counterpart. Could something like that be a possibility here? Could the H700 be reflashed with the LSI Megaraid 9260/9280 firmware? I guess someone would have to risk a brick to find out. I'd rather flash the drive firmware. If it's really superior with Dell equipment, why not make the firmware available? It's not like Dell is manufacturing the drive, and they already provide drive firmware upgrades on the support site. Agreed. But the controller firmware is available. If Dell specified/required certain mfr/drive models and made their proprietary firmware available to reflash them from the mfr default firmware, I don't think they'd get nearly the backwash they're going to have from their current stance. ___ Linux-PowerEdge mailing list Linux-PowerEdge@dell.com https://lists.us.dell.com/mailman/listinfo/linux-poweredge Please read the FAQ at http://lists.us.dell.com/faq
Re: Third-party drives not permitted on Gen 11 servers
Please, email your Dell customer rep and complain about this! I did. I contacted my Dell customer rep and he forwarded my complain to the product support group. He said they may re-evaluate things if lots of people complain. (I can hope...) We don't have the Dell R710's, and I still complained. Thanks, Jason ___ Linux-PowerEdge mailing list Linux-PowerEdge@dell.com https://lists.us.dell.com/mailman/listinfo/linux-poweredge Please read the FAQ at http://lists.us.dell.com/faq
Re: Third-party drives not permitted on Gen 11 servers
Hi, On Wed, 10 Feb 2010, Jason Edgecombe wrote: Please, email your Dell customer rep and complain about this! I did. I contacted my Dell customer rep and he forwarded my complain to the product support group. He said they may re-evaluate things if lots of people complain. (I can hope...) We don't have the Dell R710's, and I still complained. The mass of complaints here could easily get to knowledge to those relevant people at DELL by help of the participating DELL members. I guess at least Matt Domsch has already formed a proper signal against his marketing collegues, and I guess he has the power to place it right. Viele Gruesse Eberhard Moenkeberg (emoe...@gwdg.de, e...@kki.org) -- Eberhard Moenkeberg Arbeitsgruppe IT-Infrastruktur E-Mail: emoe...@gwdg.de Tel.: +49 (0)551 201-1551 - Gesellschaft fuer wissenschaftliche Datenverarbeitung mbH Goettingen (GWDG) Am Fassberg 11, 37077 Goettingen URL:http://www.gwdg.de E-Mail: g...@gwdg.de Tel.: +49 (0)551 201-1510Fax:+49 (0)551 201-2150 Geschaeftsfuehrer: Prof. Dr. Bernhard Neumair Aufsichtsratsvorsitzender: Dipl.-Kfm. Markus Hoppe Sitz der Gesellschaft: Goettingen Registergericht: Goettingen Handelsregister-Nr. B 598 - ___ Linux-PowerEdge mailing list Linux-PowerEdge@dell.com https://lists.us.dell.com/mailman/listinfo/linux-poweredge Please read the FAQ at http://lists.us.dell.com/faq
Re: Third-party drives not permitted on Gen 11 servers
On Wednesday 10 February 2010, John Oliver wrote: On Wed, Feb 10, 2010 at 11:36:54AM -0500, J. Epperson wrote: And UPSs! We must ensure that we have appropriately proprietarily conditioned power for our proprietary servers. And no third party replacement batteries either. Lord only knows what sort of corruption that could lead to. -- And, for our own good, we must be restricted to using Dell-branded enclosures... we can't take the risk that the holes in a lesser product might be out-of-kilter, slightly tweaking the chassis, causing memory and cards to edge out of their slots. Better get Dell-branded network cables, too. And Dell KVMs, Dell keyboards, Dell mice... Dell mousepads, too, just to absolutely ensure a positive computing experience... Be careful what you wish for. The network cable-one is already here. 10G for shorter distances now is using so called twinax cables for SFP+. One feature of SFP+ (like other transiever slots) is that it identifies what you connect. Atleast one major network equipment vendor (and I'm guessing most other too) only allows its own cables. /Peter signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Linux-PowerEdge mailing list Linux-PowerEdge@dell.com https://lists.us.dell.com/mailman/listinfo/linux-poweredge Please read the FAQ at http://lists.us.dell.com/faq
RE: Third-party drives not permitted on Gen 11 servers
Thank you very much for your comments and feedback regarding exclusive use of Dell drives. It is common practice in enterprise storage solutions to limit drive support to only those drives which have been qualified by the vendor. In the case of Dell's PERC RAID controllers, we began informing customers when a non-Dell drive was detected with the introduction of PERC5 RAID controllers in early 2006. With the introduction of the PERC H700/H800 controllers, we began enabling only the use of Dell qualified drives. There are a number of benefits for using Dell qualified drives in particular ensuring a positive experience and protecting our data. While SAS and SATA are industry standards there are differences which occur in implementation. An analogy is that English is spoken in the UK, US and Australia. While the language is generally the same, there are subtle differences in word usage which can lead to confusion. This exists in storage subsystems as well. As these subsystems become more capable, faster and more complex, these differences in implementation can have greater impact. Benefits of Dell's Hard Disk and SSD drives are outlined in a white paper on Dell's web site at http://www.dell.com/downloads/global/products/pvaul/en/dell-hard-drives-pov.pdf -Original Message- From: linux-poweredge-bounces-Lists On Behalf Of Philip Tait Sent: Friday, February 05, 2010 4:31 PM To: linux-poweredge-Lists Subject: Third-party drives not permitted on Gen 11 servers I just received my first Gen11 server, R710, with H700 PERC. I removed the supplied drives, and installed 4 Barracuda ES.2s. After doing a Clear Configuration in the pre-boot RAID setup utility, I can perform no operation with the drives - they are marked as blocked. Is Dell preventing the use of 3rd-party HDDs now? Thanks for any enlightenment. Philip J. Tait http://subarutelescope.org ___ Linux-PowerEdge mailing list Linux-PowerEdge@dell.com https://lists.us.dell.com/mailman/listinfo/linux-poweredge Please read the FAQ at http://lists.us.dell.com/faq ___ Linux-PowerEdge mailing list Linux-PowerEdge@dell.com https://lists.us.dell.com/mailman/listinfo/linux-poweredge Please read the FAQ at http://lists.us.dell.com/faq
Re: Third-party drives not permitted on Gen 11 servers
On 2/9/2010 5:17 PM, howard_sho...@dell.com wrote: Thank you very much for your comments and feedback regarding exclusive use of Dell drives. It is common practice in enterprise storage solutions to limit drive support to only those drives which have been qualified by the vendor. In the case of Dell's PERC RAID controllers, we began informing customers when a non-Dell drive was detected with the introduction of PERC5 RAID controllers in early 2006. With the introduction of the PERC H700/H800 controllers, we began enabling only the use of Dell qualified drives. There are a number of benefits for using Dell qualified drives in particular ensuring a positive experience and protecting our data. While SAS and SATA are industry standards there are differences which occur in implementation. An analogy is that English is spoken in the UK, US and Australia. While the language is generally the same, there are subtle differences in word usage which can lead to confusion. This exists in storage subsystems as well. As these subsystems become more capable, faster and more complex, these differences in implementation can have greater impact. Benefits of Dell's Hard Disk and SSD drives are outlined in a white paper on Dell's web site at http://www.dell.com/downloads/global/products/pvaul/en/dell-hard-drives-pov.pdf -Original Message- From: linux-poweredge-bounces-Lists On Behalf Of Philip Tait Sent: Friday, February 05, 2010 4:31 PM To: linux-poweredge-Lists Subject: Third-party drives not permitted on Gen 11 servers I just received my first Gen11 server, R710, with H700 PERC. I removed the supplied drives, and installed 4 Barracuda ES.2s. After doing a Clear Configuration in the pre-boot RAID setup utility, I can perform no operation with the drives - they are marked as blocked. Is Dell preventing the use of 3rd-party HDDs now? Thanks for any enlightenment. Philip J. Tait http://subarutelescope.org ___ Linux-PowerEdge mailing list Linux-PowerEdge@dell.com https://lists.us.dell.com/mailman/listinfo/linux-poweredge Please read the FAQ at http://lists.us.dell.com/faq ___ Linux-PowerEdge mailing list Linux-PowerEdge@dell.com https://lists.us.dell.com/mailman/listinfo/linux-poweredge Please read the FAQ at http://lists.us.dell.com/faq This is common reasoning given for any vendor that starts practicing lock-in. Dell has just gone down that road. I'll either not buy Dell servers OR order them without your controllers and use some of my own. Over the years proprietary solutions are only cash cows and rarely if ever really live up to the claims put forward by the vendor. ___ Linux-PowerEdge mailing list Linux-PowerEdge@dell.com https://lists.us.dell.com/mailman/listinfo/linux-poweredge Please read the FAQ at http://lists.us.dell.com/faq
RE: Third-party drives not permitted on Gen 11 servers
I have a PE-2650 at home on which I do configuration testing, things I can then use on the newer servers at the office. It cost me nearly nothing ($10) and runs generic drives. With that familiarity I am comfortable with Dell quality and can recommend similar systems. I also have an entry level HP PA Risc system that uses generic drives and at least some generic PCI cards. We have HP at the office too. I don't have any Apple systems. Not that I dislike them, but I can't afford to have one, not even an older used one, because everything is proprietary and locked up. I've never recommended an Apple system and never can. You aren't losing a sale when I buy an ancient system. I wasn't going to pay full price. But having something around made me happy about Dell. So now I'm not so happy about Dell. I'm supposed to recommend some new database servers soon. I'm looking at Sun because of the Sun/Oracle deal. I'm still ok with HP but wish they had kept PA-RISC. I am in the dark about developments over at IBM. I don't think Dell is the way to go. Chris Howard CIS Database Administrator Platte River Power Authority -Original Message- From: howard_sho...@dell.com [mailto:howard_sho...@dell.com] Sent: Tuesday, February 09, 2010 3:18 PM To: linux-powere...@lists.us.dell.com Subject: RE: Third-party drives not permitted on Gen 11 servers Thank you very much for your comments and feedback regarding exclusive use of Dell drives. It is common practice in enterprise storage solutions to limit drive support to only those drives which have been qualified by the vendor. In the case of Dell's PERC RAID controllers, we began informing customers when a non-Dell drive was detected with the introduction of PERC5 RAID controllers in early 2006. With the introduction of the PERC H700/H800 controllers, we began enabling only the use of Dell qualified drives. There are a number of benefits for using Dell qualified drives in particular ensuring a positive experience and protecting our data. While SAS and SATA are industry standards there are differences which occur in implementation. An analogy is that English is spoken in the UK, US and Australia. While the language is generally the same, there are subtle differences in word usage which can lead to confusion. This exists in storage subsystems as well. As these subsystems become more capable, faster and more complex, these differences in implementation can have greater impact. Benefits of Dell's Hard Disk and SSD drives are outlined in a white paper on Dell's web site at http://www.dell.com/downloads/global/products/pvaul/en/dell-hard- drives-pov.pdf -Original Message- From: linux-poweredge-bounces-Lists On Behalf Of Philip Tait Sent: Friday, February 05, 2010 4:31 PM To: linux-poweredge-Lists Subject: Third-party drives not permitted on Gen 11 servers I just received my first Gen11 server, R710, with H700 PERC. I removed the supplied drives, and installed 4 Barracuda ES.2s. After doing a Clear Configuration in the pre-boot RAID setup utility, I can perform no operation with the drives - they are marked as blocked. Is Dell preventing the use of 3rd-party HDDs now? Thanks for any enlightenment. Philip J. Tait http://subarutelescope.org ___ Linux-PowerEdge mailing list Linux-PowerEdge@dell.com https://lists.us.dell.com/mailman/listinfo/linux-poweredge Please read the FAQ at http://lists.us.dell.com/faq ___ Linux-PowerEdge mailing list Linux-PowerEdge@dell.com https://lists.us.dell.com/mailman/listinfo/linux-poweredge Please read the FAQ at http://lists.us.dell.com/faq ___ Linux-PowerEdge mailing list Linux-PowerEdge@dell.com https://lists.us.dell.com/mailman/listinfo/linux-poweredge Please read the FAQ at http://lists.us.dell.com/faq
RE: Third-party drives not permitted on Gen 11 servers
I'd be more inclined to buy into the whitepaper and the idea behind it if it were not for the fact that Dell servers continue to come with whatever random hard drive model and manufacturer Dell can get at a low price; I don't believe there is any special evaluation of manufacturers quality and/or performance, either that or the standards are so low that every model passes. I don't know one week to the next what the hard drive flavor of the week will be when a new server arrives. Additionally, as someone who has 500+ servers in production, we regularly have Dell branded drives die and if the server is out of warranty, we throw the same model drive bought off the street into it. I have to say I've not had any indication that the Dell drives have been more reliable, if anything less reliable since they buy up whatever a manufacturer is willing to make a deal on at a given time. I'm glad this thread came up though, I could have been in a bad spot if it had not; we have hundreds of Dell servers and buy third party drives simply to have as spare parts so when a drive fails we can throw a new one in immediately instead of waiting four hours or next day depending on a server's support contract. I guess now I have to buy Dell spare part drives so I don't end up screwed. David -Original Message- From: linux-poweredge-boun...@dell.com [mailto:linux-poweredge-boun...@dell.com] On Behalf Of howard_sho...@dell.com Sent: Tuesday, February 09, 2010 5:18 PM To: linux-powere...@lists.us.dell.com Subject: RE: Third-party drives not permitted on Gen 11 servers Thank you very much for your comments and feedback regarding exclusive use of Dell drives. It is common practice in enterprise storage solutions to limit drive support to only those drives which have been qualified by the vendor. In the case of Dell's PERC RAID controllers, we began informing customers when a non-Dell drive was detected with the introduction of PERC5 RAID controllers in early 2006. With the introduction of the PERC H700/H800 controllers, we began enabling only the use of Dell qualified drives. There are a number of benefits for using Dell qualified drives in particular ensuring a positive experience and protecting our data. While SAS and SATA are industry standards there are differences which occur in implementation. An analogy is that English is spoken in the UK, US and Australia. While the language is generally the same, there are subtle differences in word usage which can lead to confusion. This exists in storage subsystems as well. As these subsystems become more capable, faster and more complex, these differences in implementation can have greater impact. Benefits of Dell's Hard Disk and SSD drives are outlined in a white paper on Dell's web site at http://www.dell.com/downloads/global/products/pvaul/en/dell-ha rd-drives-pov.pdf -Original Message- From: linux-poweredge-bounces-Lists On Behalf Of Philip Tait Sent: Friday, February 05, 2010 4:31 PM To: linux-poweredge-Lists Subject: Third-party drives not permitted on Gen 11 servers I just received my first Gen11 server, R710, with H700 PERC. I removed the supplied drives, and installed 4 Barracuda ES.2s. After doing a Clear Configuration in the pre-boot RAID setup utility, I can perform no operation with the drives - they are marked as blocked. Is Dell preventing the use of 3rd-party HDDs now? Thanks for any enlightenment. Philip J. Tait http://subarutelescope.org ___ Linux-PowerEdge mailing list Linux-PowerEdge@dell.com https://lists.us.dell.com/mailman/listinfo/linux-poweredge Please read the FAQ at http://lists.us.dell.com/faq ___ Linux-PowerEdge mailing list Linux-PowerEdge@dell.com https://lists.us.dell.com/mailman/listinfo/linux-poweredge Please read the FAQ at http://lists.us.dell.com/faq ___ Linux-PowerEdge mailing list Linux-PowerEdge@dell.com https://lists.us.dell.com/mailman/listinfo/linux-poweredge Please read the FAQ at http://lists.us.dell.com/faq
RE: Third-party drives not permitted on Gen 11 servers
On Tue, 2010-02-09 at 16:17 -0600, howard_sho...@dell.com wrote: Thank you very much for your comments and feedback regarding exclusive use of Dell drives. It is common practice in enterprise storage solutions to limit drive support to only those drives which have been qualified by the vendor. In the case of Dell's PERC RAID controllers, we began informing customers when a non-Dell drive was detected with the introduction of PERC5 RAID controllers in early 2006. With the introduction of the PERC H700/H800 controllers, we began enabling only the use of Dell qualified drives. I'm sorry - I must have missed something here. I understand that in Enterprise Storage Solutions (such as Hitachi and NetApp) they only allow qualified drives. Are you officially stating that the R710 box is an Enterprise Storage Solution? Because from my understanding, the R710 is listed in the Servers category on www.dell.com, rather than in the storage category. So I fail to understand your rationale, as I believe that many here do. (Though I don't want to speak for others.) If Dell is intending to provide Enterprise Storage Systems in the form of the PowerEdge line, complete with vendor hard disk lock-in, please let us know clearly and equivocally. I understand this in storage boxes, but not in servers. The hardware lock-in path is a dangerous one, tried by IBM, Sun, Compaq (before they were bought by HP), and HP. Doing this in a server line almost always ends badly. I implore Dell to rethink this strategy. Thank you, -I ___ Linux-PowerEdge mailing list Linux-PowerEdge@dell.com https://lists.us.dell.com/mailman/listinfo/linux-poweredge Please read the FAQ at http://lists.us.dell.com/faq
Re: Third-party drives not permitted on Gen 11 servers
I'm sorry - I must have missed something here. I understand that in Enterprise Storage Solutions (such as Hitachi and NetApp) they only allow qualified drives. Are you officially stating that the R710 box is an Enterprise Storage Solution? Because from my understanding, the R710 is listed in the Servers category on www.dell.com, rather than in the storage category. So I fail to understand your rationale, as I believe that many here do. (Though I don't want to speak for others.) If Dell is intending to provide Enterprise Storage Systems in the form of the PowerEdge line, complete with vendor hard disk lock-in, please let us know clearly and equivocally. I understand this in storage boxes, but not in servers. The hardware lock-in path is a dangerous one, tried by IBM, Sun, Compaq (before they were bought by HP), and HP. Doing this in a server line almost always ends badly. I implore Dell to rethink this strategy. Thank you, -I Hi, Just wanted to input my 2 cents if Dell is listening. The main reason we use Dell is because it's cheap, works well with standard equipment (SATA, SAS, PCI, RAM, Link Agg etc..) and is consistent. Cheap to the point where I buy 2 of everything so I have a hot/cold spare. I'm probably spending more than I would at HP or Sun but I've got 2 of 'em. Ram/drive bad? Throw in something. If it's standard, it'll work. We don't buy cheap drives or cheap ram but with a variety of other systems; I don't want to keep multiple brands of the same 300GB 15k drive or the same 2gb stick of ram handy in case there's a failure. I challenge Dell to show me a case where the generic drive (like a Fujitsu MBA3300RC) fails but their magical firmware succeeds. We've probably bought around 250 Dell servers. If there's lock-in on hard drives that drive up cost.. I might just start building our own servers. Sure, it might fail... but i've got 2 of 'em. Brandon ___ Linux-PowerEdge mailing list Linux-PowerEdge@dell.com https://lists.us.dell.com/mailman/listinfo/linux-poweredge Please read the FAQ at http://lists.us.dell.com/faq
Re: Third-party drives not permitted on Gen 11 servers
Philip Tait wrote: the supplied drives, and installed 4 Barracuda ES.2s. After doing a Clear Configuration in the pre-boot RAID setup utility, I can perform no operation with the drives - they are marked as blocked. Is Dell preventing the use of 3rd-party HDDs now? Thanks for any enlightenment. Hi Philip, I was wondering what the firmware version on the blocked drives is? e.g. using smartctl or hdparm -I on the drives when stuck in a different box? Assuming your drives are SATA rather than SAS, the firmware in a 250G Dell-supplied ES.2 in an R200 which I have here is MA08, whereas some third-party drives in other machines use SNxx series firmware. I believe it is possible to switch from one to the other firmware series. Whilst I think Dell's policy is probably wrong (it should be complain loudly rather than disallow), it's possible that there are genuine reasons for this - I spent/wasted most of last week diagnosing what is starting to look like a firmware bug on WD 2TB green power drives on a non-Dell server - interspersing SMART queries with other types of transactions would appear to occasionally cause the drives to lock-up! I wouldn't be surprised if the H700 adaptor firmwares are doing various unusual things to the hard drives, and it's possible that Dell has got nervous about buggy firmware from unqualified drives reflecting badly on their hardware. Some official (or non-official) comment from Dell on the *technical* reasons for this decision would be welcome Cheers, Tim. ___ Linux-PowerEdge mailing list Linux-PowerEdge@dell.com https://lists.us.dell.com/mailman/listinfo/linux-poweredge Please read the FAQ at http://lists.us.dell.com/faq
Re: Third-party drives not permitted on Gen 11 servers
On 8 Feb 2010, at 11:48, Tim Small wrote: ... it's possible that there are genuine reasons for this - I spent/wasted most of last week diagnosing what is starting to look like a firmware bug on WD 2TB green power drives on a non-Dell server ... I wouldn't be surprised if the H700 adaptor firmwares are doing various unusual things to the hard drives, and it's possible that Dell has got nervous about buggy firmware from unqualified drives reflecting badly on their hardware. There's a thread on gentoo-user which I have just now seen come to conclusions regarding modern drives with 4K sector sizes (1-Terabyte drives - 4K sector sizes? - bar performance so far) It appears that AIUI fdisk will, by default, create partitions out of optimal alignment for these modern drives. My understanding of this is a little sketchy - I *think* I'm understanding correctly, but I beg forgiveness if I explain wrong. The first partition created by fdisk will, by default, start at sector 63, as shown by `echo p | sudo fdisk -u /dev/sdb`. Two users in that thread report that creating the partition manually to start at sector 64 will, on large modern drives with 4K sector sizes, increase performance by a couple of orders of magnitude, to roughly 20 seconds from 8-10 minutes. I believe cfdisk may also by default create its first partition beginning at sector 63, as I'm seeing that on one of my systems here and I tend to use cfdisk for partitioning. Apparently Windows, since Vista, at least, does not suffer this problem, and already aligns partitions optimally by default. So it would be quite cool if Dell's firmware specially compensated for this for the benefit of Linux users. If this were the reason (and actually I suspect that it is not) then the firmware should squawk about 3rd-party drives, rather than rejecting them outright, as already agreed by everyone posting to this thread. Stroller. ___ Linux-PowerEdge mailing list Linux-PowerEdge@dell.com https://lists.us.dell.com/mailman/listinfo/linux-poweredge Please read the FAQ at http://lists.us.dell.com/faq
RE: Third-party drives not permitted on Gen 11 servers
We haven't noticed this yet on R710s but ours have PERC6, As a customer of Dell who has hundreds of these, if we do notice this, we will be using something else in the future. It is plain too expensive, too slow, and too difficult to get drives if we need additional drives for our Dells, I also agree that SATA is SATA. Thanks, -Drew -Original Message- From: linux-poweredge-boun...@dell.com [mailto:linux-poweredge-boun...@dell.com] On Behalf Of Stroller Sent: Saturday, February 06, 2010 8:26 AM To: Dell Linux Mailing List Subject: Re: Third-party drives not permitted on Gen 11 servers On 5 Feb 2010, at 22:31, Philip Tait wrote: I just received my first Gen11 server, R710, with H700 PERC. I removed the supplied drives, and installed 4 Barracuda ES.2s. After doing a Clear Configuration in the pre-boot RAID setup utility, I can perform no operation with the drives - they are marked as blocked. Is Dell preventing the use of 3rd-party HDDs now? Thanks for posting this. That Dell are doing this seemed to be hinted at in another post a couple of days ago, and I wasn't sure if I was reading right. Out of concern that I might be miscomprehending I really wanted to do some homework before kicking up a fuss. I have to say I'm gob-smacked to read this confirmed. £79 ($123) for a 250GB SATA hard-drive is, these days, a little pricey. We can get those for £25 anywhere else, but we tolerated the mark-up when we ordered recently because Dell have always been good value to us otherwise - let them have their cream. We bought a handful of these small drives because we figured they'd include the caddies. Those are worth £25 or so to us (that's what we paid for secondhand caddies for a 4 year old server last month), so we bought a good number of low capacity drives to include those, expecting to upgrade the drives themselves in a year or two. Markups on larger drives are taking the piss, however. £220 for 1TB - £53 elsewhere, £740 for 2TB drives that are £100 from the local warehouse! And the commodity drives have longer warranties! Dell give only 1 year as standard, AND THE PRICE ISN'T EVEN THE POINT! The point is the lock-in - if you sell us something that takes SATA hard-drives, I expect ANY standard SATA hard-drive to run in it. Why wouldn't it? I have to say I'm a bit gob-smacked by this. Half of me wants to refuse to accept Dell's delivery on Monday, half of me figures this ain't such a big deal; we'll tolerate the limitation on this machine maybe it'll all blow over. I'm just completely WTF!?!? over this, I'm at a loss how to respond. We certainly won't buy another machine from Dell whilst they carry this policy. I just find it completely stunning that Dell, without some kind of a warning, would sell me a SATA computer that doesn't accept standard SATA drives. I've spent years defending Dell. I encounter people who assume from the price that Dells are low-quality mass-produced crap, and I correct them. When someone has (rarely) told me a horror story of shitty customer service from Dell, then I have replied that every manufacturer has some dissatisfied customers; that might not reassure the recipient of bad service, but I discourage other people I meet from taking these anecdotes at face value, and contrast with the great customer service I have always experienced from Dell. I cannot count the number of computers Dell have sold on my recommendation. In the last fortnight I have dropped a software product (for Windows) that I have deployed at hundreds of sites. It's no longer part of new installs, it's being removed replaced on systems as they come in for service. Other people I meet tell me they're dropping the same software now, too. I guess I saw this coming 18 - 24 months ago, when I was cussing the vendor for a new feature, and asking out loud what did they do _this_ for?. I was cussing them a year ago, and within the last 6 months the bugs in their software have *really* been taking the mickey. This really feels like Dell going the same way. I drafted a rant about that vendor in (I see from my notes) June 2008, and never quite got around to polishing it and blogging it. Hopefully, since I've found the time on this quiet Saturday morning to complete this email, someone at Dell will bother to read it. Stroller. ___ Linux-PowerEdge mailing list Linux-PowerEdge@dell.com https://lists.us.dell.com/mailman/listinfo/linux-poweredge Please read the FAQ at http://lists.us.dell.com/faq ___ Linux-PowerEdge mailing list Linux-PowerEdge@dell.com https://lists.us.dell.com/mailman/listinfo/linux-poweredge Please read the FAQ at http://lists.us.dell.com/faq
Re: Third-party drives not permitted on Gen 11 servers
Top posting due to the length of Stroller's eloquent and thoughtful post. Well said, and entirely seconded. I think it's particularly bad timing for Dell to be doing this at a time when Oracle has purchased a hardware arm and is picking off Red Hat Linux (a Dell partner) software support customers with lowball pricing. If the hardware is going to be proprietary anyway, why risk having multiple parties accountable for OS/drivers/hw support, a risk that has plagued the Unix/Linux community since the onset of X86 platforms? I'm sure there are others who experienced the nightmare of SCO Unix on EISA bus machines with third part cards and fourth party drivers. Open source has vastly improved this, but in commercial production environments there's always a yearning for accountability for support. Take away the open hardware part of the equation and the choices appear different. I'm just sayin On Sat, February 6, 2010 08:26, Stroller wrote: Thanks for posting this. That Dell are doing this seemed to be hinted at in another post a couple of days ago, and I wasn't sure if I was reading right. Out of concern that I might be miscomprehending I really wanted to do some homework before kicking up a fuss. I have to say I'm gob-smacked to read this confirmed. £79 ($123) for a 250GB SATA hard-drive is, these days, a little pricey. We can get those for £25 anywhere else, but we tolerated the mark-up when we ordered recently because Dell have always been good value to us otherwise - let them have their cream. We bought a handful of these small drives because we figured they'd include the caddies. Those are worth £25 or so to us (that's what we paid for secondhand caddies for a 4 year old server last month), so we bought a good number of low capacity drives to include those, expecting to upgrade the drives themselves in a year or two. Markups on larger drives are taking the piss, however. £220 for 1TB - £53 elsewhere, £740 for 2TB drives that are £100 from the local warehouse! And the commodity drives have longer warranties! Dell give only 1 year as standard, AND THE PRICE ISN'T EVEN THE POINT! The point is the lock-in - if you sell us something that takes SATA hard-drives, I expect ANY standard SATA hard-drive to run in it. Why wouldn't it? I have to say I'm a bit gob-smacked by this. Half of me wants to refuse to accept Dell's delivery on Monday, half of me figures this ain't such a big deal; we'll tolerate the limitation on this machine maybe it'll all blow over. I'm just completely WTF!?!? over this, I'm at a loss how to respond. We certainly won't buy another machine from Dell whilst they carry this policy. I just find it completely stunning that Dell, without some kind of a warning, would sell me a SATA computer that doesn't accept standard SATA drives. I've spent years defending Dell. I encounter people who assume from the price that Dells are low-quality mass-produced crap, and I correct them. When someone has (rarely) told me a horror story of shitty customer service from Dell, then I have replied that every manufacturer has some dissatisfied customers; that might not reassure the recipient of bad service, but I discourage other people I meet from taking these anecdotes at face value, and contrast with the great customer service I have always experienced from Dell. I cannot count the number of computers Dell have sold on my recommendation. In the last fortnight I have dropped a software product (for Windows) that I have deployed at hundreds of sites. It's no longer part of new installs, it's being removed replaced on systems as they come in for service. Other people I meet tell me they're dropping the same software now, too. I guess I saw this coming 18 - 24 months ago, when I was cussing the vendor for a new feature, and asking out loud what did they do _this_ for?. I was cussing them a year ago, and within the last 6 months the bugs in their software have *really* been taking the mickey. This really feels like Dell going the same way. I drafted a rant about that vendor in (I see from my notes) June 2008, and never quite got around to polishing it and blogging it. Hopefully, since I've found the time on this quiet Saturday morning to complete this email, someone at Dell will bother to read it. Stroller. ___ Linux-PowerEdge mailing list Linux-PowerEdge@dell.com https://lists.us.dell.com/mailman/listinfo/linux-poweredge Please read the FAQ at http://lists.us.dell.com/faq ___ Linux-PowerEdge mailing list Linux-PowerEdge@dell.com https://lists.us.dell.com/mailman/listinfo/linux-poweredge Please read the FAQ at http://lists.us.dell.com/faq
Re: Third-party drives not permitted on Gen 11 servers
On 2/6/2010 8:57 AM, Drew Weaver wrote: We haven't noticed this yet on R710s but ours have PERC6, As a customer of Dell who has hundreds of these, if we do notice this, we will be using something else in the future. It is plain too expensive, too slow, and too difficult to get drives if we need additional drives for our Dells, I also agree that SATA is SATA. Thanks, -Drew It's not the perc6's that blacklist non-dell drives..only the h7x and h8x series. ___ Linux-PowerEdge mailing list Linux-PowerEdge@dell.com https://lists.us.dell.com/mailman/listinfo/linux-poweredge Please read the FAQ at http://lists.us.dell.com/faq
Re: Third-party drives not permitted on Gen 11 servers
On 6 Feb 2010, at 15:30, William Warren wrote: On 2/6/2010 8:57 AM, Drew Weaver wrote: We haven't noticed this yet on R710s but ours have PERC6, As a customer of Dell who has hundreds of these, if we do notice this, we will be using something else in the future. It is plain too expensive, too slow, and too difficult to get drives if we need additional drives for our Dells, I also agree that SATA is SATA. It's not the perc6's that blacklist non-dell drives..only the h7x and h8x series. So I'll be able to use any drive I like with the T410 I have on order, then? Stroller. ___ Linux-PowerEdge mailing list Linux-PowerEdge@dell.com https://lists.us.dell.com/mailman/listinfo/linux-poweredge Please read the FAQ at http://lists.us.dell.com/faq
Re: Third-party drives not permitted on Gen 11 servers
On 6 Feb 2010, at 14:32, J. Epperson wrote: Top posting due to the length of Stroller's eloquent and thoughtful post. Well said, and entirely seconded. That's very kind of you to say so. Stroller. ___ Linux-PowerEdge mailing list Linux-PowerEdge@dell.com https://lists.us.dell.com/mailman/listinfo/linux-poweredge Please read the FAQ at http://lists.us.dell.com/faq
Re: Third-party drives not permitted on Gen 11 servers
On Sat, Feb 6, 2010 at 1:59 PM, Robin Bowes robin-li...@robinbowes.comwrote: On 06/02/10 21:45, Steve Thompson wrote: On Sat, 6 Feb 2010, Dameon Wagner wrote: I've only been lurking on the list for a week or so, but after recent experience buying some dell servers, and almost a MD1000 (backed out of that because of the drive/hot-swap-tray availability issue) I'm still damn annoyed, and irritated enough to chip in my 2c... I have found that the caddies for 3.5 drives in MD1000/PE2900 etc are in fact widely available, albeit not from Dell. I just bought quite a few, with screws, for $24 each (I'm in upstate NY). I did call Dell and they said that they _could_ sell me one, but only _one_. Now, that's interesting. I'm looking to buy some storage shortly. I have a quote for an MD1200 with 12 of 2TB NLSAS drives. I'm guessing it would be quite a bit cheaper to just get the MD1220 and source the drives and caddies elsewhere. Where did you see the caddies available? R. ___ Linux-PowerEdge mailing list Linux-PowerEdge@dell.com https://lists.us.dell.com/mailman/listinfo/linux-poweredge Please read the FAQ at http://lists.us.dell.com/faq We usually buy caddies from http://discountechnology.com/Products/SCSI-Hard-Drive-Caddies-Trays ___ Linux-PowerEdge mailing list Linux-PowerEdge@dell.com https://lists.us.dell.com/mailman/listinfo/linux-poweredge Please read the FAQ at http://lists.us.dell.com/faq
Re: Third-party drives not permitted on Gen 11 servers
I hope this isn't true. If so I will have to start looking into a new solution for our server purchases as this is unacceptable. - Original Message - From: Philip Tait phi...@subaru.naoj.org To: Linux-PowerEdge@dell.com Sent: Friday, February 5, 2010 2:31:00 PM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific Subject: Third-party drives not permitted on Gen 11 servers I just received my first Gen11 server, R710, with H700 PERC. I removed the supplied drives, and installed 4 Barracuda ES.2s. After doing a Clear Configuration in the pre-boot RAID setup utility, I can perform no operation with the drives - they are marked as blocked. Is Dell preventing the use of 3rd-party HDDs now? Thanks for any enlightenment. Philip J. Tait http://subarutelescope.org ___ Linux-PowerEdge mailing list Linux-PowerEdge@dell.com https://lists.us.dell.com/mailman/listinfo/linux-poweredge Please read the FAQ at http://lists.us.dell.com/faq ___ Linux-PowerEdge mailing list Linux-PowerEdge@dell.com https://lists.us.dell.com/mailman/listinfo/linux-poweredge Please read the FAQ at http://lists.us.dell.com/faq
Re: Third-party drives not permitted on Gen 11 servers
This thread on the dell community forum may be related. boo... http://en.community.dell.com/forums/p/19314432/19649799.aspx On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 2:53 PM, Chase Bolt cb...@datinggold.com wrote: I hope this isn't true. If so I will have to start looking into a new solution for our server purchases as this is unacceptable. - Original Message - From: Philip Tait phi...@subaru.naoj.org To: Linux-PowerEdge@dell.com Sent: Friday, February 5, 2010 2:31:00 PM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific Subject: Third-party drives not permitted on Gen 11 servers I just received my first Gen11 server, R710, with H700 PERC. I removed the supplied drives, and installed 4 Barracuda ES.2s. After doing a Clear Configuration in the pre-boot RAID setup utility, I can perform no operation with the drives - they are marked as blocked. Is Dell preventing the use of 3rd-party HDDs now? Thanks for any enlightenment. Philip J. Tait http://subarutelescope.org ___ Linux-PowerEdge mailing list Linux-PowerEdge@dell.com https://lists.us.dell.com/mailman/listinfo/linux-poweredge Please read the FAQ at http://lists.us.dell.com/faq ___ Linux-PowerEdge mailing list Linux-PowerEdge@dell.com https://lists.us.dell.com/mailman/listinfo/linux-poweredge Please read the FAQ at http://lists.us.dell.com/faq ___ Linux-PowerEdge mailing list Linux-PowerEdge@dell.com https://lists.us.dell.com/mailman/listinfo/linux-poweredge Please read the FAQ at http://lists.us.dell.com/faq
Re: Third-party drives not permitted on Gen 11 servers
On Fri, 5 Feb 2010, Philip Tait wrote: Is Dell preventing the use of 3rd-party HDDs now? This better not be true. We have an R710 on its way in which non-Dell drives are to be installed. If this is true, the R710 will be going back to Dell, and it will be the last Dell machine we ever order. Steve ___ Linux-PowerEdge mailing list Linux-PowerEdge@dell.com https://lists.us.dell.com/mailman/listinfo/linux-poweredge Please read the FAQ at http://lists.us.dell.com/faq
Re: Third-party drives not permitted on Gen 11 servers
On 2/5/2010 7:16 PM, Steve Thompson wrote: On Fri, 5 Feb 2010, Philip Tait wrote: Is Dell preventing the use of 3rd-party HDDs now? This better not be true. We have an R710 on its way in which non-Dell drives are to be installed. If this is true, the R710 will be going back to Dell, and it will be the last Dell machine we ever order. Steve ___ Linux-PowerEdge mailing list Linux-PowerEdge@dell.com https://lists.us.dell.com/mailman/listinfo/linux-poweredge Please read the FAQ at http://lists.us.dell.com/faq Let us know if that turns out to be the case. Will most assuredly influence my recommendations for future client purchases. ___ Linux-PowerEdge mailing list Linux-PowerEdge@dell.com https://lists.us.dell.com/mailman/listinfo/linux-poweredge Please read the FAQ at http://lists.us.dell.com/faq
Re: Third-party drives not permitted on Gen 11 servers
This thread Brandon mentioned earlier explains it a little - http://en.community.dell.com/forums/p/19314432/19649799.aspx From the thread; *Yes, while on the surface I don't like the sound of it, the truth is that Dell-certified drives have a special firmware on them that allows them to respond correctly to advanced requests made by the controllers so that operation of the machine can be guaranteed. Having been a technical analyst for Dell servers, I can tell you that many issues arise from the use of non-certified drives. So, while I don't like it, I can understand it. Besides, Dell doesn't make the drives - they are made the top drive manufacturers, but in order to guarantee compatibility/reliability, they put a Dell-specific FW on them. Just a thought :)* Perhaps it's more the cost of the 'official' drives that is the issue here, maybe Dell can make the prices a bit more reasonable. I know I'd be happy paying for the drives if they had technical benefits that weren't offset by stupidly high prices. ___ Linux-PowerEdge mailing list Linux-PowerEdge@dell.com https://lists.us.dell.com/mailman/listinfo/linux-poweredge Please read the FAQ at http://lists.us.dell.com/faq
Re: Third-party drives not permitted on Gen 11 servers
On 2/5/2010 7:35 PM, Mark Walkom wrote: This thread Brandon mentioned earlier explains it a little - http://en.community.dell.com/forums/p/19314432/19649799.aspx From the thread; /Yes, while on the surface I don't like the sound of it, the truth is that Dell-certified drives have a special firmware on them that allows them to respond correctly to advanced requests made by the controllers so that operation of the machine can be guaranteed. Having been a technical analyst for Dell servers, I can tell you that many issues arise from the use of non-certified drives. So, while I don't like it, I can understand it. Besides, Dell doesn't make the drives - they are made the top drive manufacturers, but in order to guarantee compatibility/reliability, they put a Dell-specific FW on them. Just a thought :)/ Perhaps it's more the cost of the 'official' drives that is the issue here, maybe Dell can make the prices a bit more reasonable. I know I'd be happy paying for the drives if they had technical benefits that weren't offset by stupidly high prices. ___ Linux-PowerEdge mailing list Linux-PowerEdge@dell.com https://lists.us.dell.com/mailman/listinfo/linux-poweredge Please read the FAQ at http://lists.us.dell.com/faq Unless they have modded the firmware of the chipset(which you can buy cards based on the LSI 2108 at many vendors) there's no reason for this. If they have modded the firmware and the drives firmware to do advanced things all the more reason to NOT buy their drives and the h-series of cards..if they get persnickety about that then it's time for another vendor. ___ Linux-PowerEdge mailing list Linux-PowerEdge@dell.com https://lists.us.dell.com/mailman/listinfo/linux-poweredge Please read the FAQ at http://lists.us.dell.com/faq
Re: Third-party drives not permitted on Gen 11 servers
On Fri, 5 Feb 2010, William Warren wrote: Perhaps it's more the cost of the 'official' drives that is the issue here, maybe Dell can make the prices a bit more reasonable. I know I'd be happy paying for the drives if they had technical benefits that weren't offset by stupidly high prices. OK Dell, what's the official word on this? If you're going to pull out the bullshit firmware argument, please tell me how all of the many PE2900's that I have run just fine, OMSA and all, with non-Dell drives. It's not that the Dell markup on drives is excessive; it's the principle (and the markup is waaay too high; Dell-supplied drives are more than double street price). This policy, if true, won't sell more disk drives; it will sell fewer servers. I have systems coming and need to know whether to cancel the orders. I'm not happy. Steve ___ Linux-PowerEdge mailing list Linux-PowerEdge@dell.com https://lists.us.dell.com/mailman/listinfo/linux-poweredge Please read the FAQ at http://lists.us.dell.com/faq
