Re: [Liveaboard] Question

[ahmet erkan]

Yes I agree with Kris. 
The insatiable desire of humans to learn is a fascinating characteristic. 
Sometimes I find myself reading the gibberish written by the most revolting 
personalities just in case there is something I can learn. If nothing I end up 
learning what style of communication not to ever use. Of course the price 
one has to pay is controlling the urge to vomit while reading messages from 
such revolting personalities. We are so lucky that we do not have such 
self serving, know it all arrogant individuals on this list.
Fair winds
Ahmet

 
> Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2011 15:01:03 -0400
> From: k...@melon.org
> To: liveaboard@liveaboardonline.com
> Subject: Re: [Liveaboard] Question
> 
> 
> Funny, but as a side-effect of all this conversation about dying in a
> sealed environment, I ended up seeing/reading a whole bunch of material
> on scuba diving and gear. I have this strange feeling that the knowledge
> I'll put that knowledge to some use before I die.
> 
> Knowledge is a funny thing to go around collecting since, unlike nearly
> everything else you could collect, the more you have, the easier it
> seems to be to store it all.. (and if collecting things without
> requiring a whole bunch of space to store the collection isn't relevant
> to a liveaboard list...)
> 
> Cheers,
> Kris
> 
> On Tue, Apr 26, 2011 at 11:10:10AM -0400, SteveW wrote:
> > Soo well put, Ben!
> > 
> > I've never understood those on the list who, somewhere along the line, 
> > forgot where their 'delete' key was if they had no interest in a subject. 
> > Kinda like my reference to the bar at the yacht club, where in that case, 
> > as 
> > you wandered around with your drink in hand, if you didn't like the 
> > conversation at one end of the bar you just moved to the other end of the 
> > bar. You certainly wouldn't tell the first group that "this is a yacht 
> > club - you're not allowed to ponder philosophical questions". Just the 
> > concept of that has me on the floor laughing my ass off.
> > 
> > Oh well, it's a free society so I guess our only recourse is to allow the 
> > Philistines on the list !
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Steve Weinstein
> > S/V CAPTIVA
> > 1997 Hunter 376, Hull #376
> > Sailing out of Oyster Bay, NY
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > All outgoing mail protected by VIPRE A/V
> > 
> > -Original Message- 
> > From: Ben Okopnik
> > Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2011 10:17 AM
> > To: liveaboard@liveaboardonline.com
> > Subject: Re: [Liveaboard] Question
> > 
> > Hey, Steve -
> > 
> > On Tue, Apr 26, 2011 at 09:10:36AM -0400, SteveW wrote:
> > > Well put, Ben! I've often thought one of the fun and stimulating aspects 
> > > of
> > > the list is the fact that not absolutely every thread is boating related.
> > > It's kinda like the bar at the yacht club. The common denominator of
> > > everyone there is love of boating but the range of lively conversations 
> > > can
> > > encompass a wide range of intellectual topics (except politics!!!) some of
> > 
> > On USENET, the canonical four topics to avoid were politics, guns, rape,
> > and religion. No matter how they started, they always ended up in
> > flames... I can't claim to have always followed that successfully, but
> > then, I never did claim to be perfect. :)
> > 
> > > which have nothing to do with boating but are the result of a group of
> > > intellectually curious people. And then there are the Neanderthals with
> > > absolutely nothing going on between their ears except their teeny little
> > > preoccupation with what directly interests them and don't have the
> > > intellectual curiosity to expand their world.
> > >
> > > If the world were left to those intellectually challenged I guess we'd 
> > > still
> > > all be afraid of falling off the edge of the flat earth.
> > 
> > Agreed, in full. The only problem is that these tail-end Charlies insist
> > on hitching a ride on the trains that *we* build... oh well. It's a cost
> > of civilization, I suppose.
> > 
> > Worth noting: "intellectual", as in "intellectual curiosity", means
> > "associated with or requiring the use of the mind". In other words,
> > having a mind is a requirement. All else proceeds from there.
> > 
> > 
> > Ben
> > -- 
> > OKOPNIK CONSULTING
> > Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business
> > Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websit

Re: [Liveaboard] Question

[Ben Okopnik]

On Tue, Apr 26, 2011 at 03:01:03PM -0400, Kris Coward wrote:
> 
> Funny, but as a side-effect of all this conversation about dying in a
> sealed environment, I ended up seeing/reading a whole bunch of material
> on scuba diving and gear. I have this strange feeling that the knowledge
> I'll put that knowledge to some use before I die.
> 
> Knowledge is a funny thing to go around collecting since, unlike nearly
> everything else you could collect, the more you have, the easier it
> seems to be to store it all.. (and if collecting things without
> requiring a whole bunch of space to store the collection isn't relevant
> to a liveaboard list...)

As somebody said once, "it all gets easier once you get the basic idea
that branches are homeomorphic endofunctors mapping submanifolds of a
Hilbert space." :) I do agree with you, though: once you have a certain
"minimal load", things become much easier to cross-reference. Also, your
ability to check a variety of things for accuracy on the fly improves,
sometimes by startling amounts. You also tend to learn about good
information sources (my latest find is http://www.snpedia.com/. Genetic
SNiPs, what fun! Got there via Manu Sporny... oh dear, infinite
backtracking. Never mind.)

One of the major things you have to watch out for, though, is observer
bias. I'm actually a bit paranoid about that kind of thing, and go to
some lengths to make sure that I'm not just collecting stuff that
supports what I already know, and rejecting things that don't match the
set. To misquote the Bishop of Gloucester, orthodoxy is *not* my doxy.



Ben
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Re: [Liveaboard] Question

[Kris Coward]

Funny, but as a side-effect of all this conversation about dying in a
sealed environment, I ended up seeing/reading a whole bunch of material
on scuba diving and gear. I have this strange feeling that the knowledge
I'll put that knowledge to some use before I die.

Knowledge is a funny thing to go around collecting since, unlike nearly
everything else you could collect, the more you have, the easier it
seems to be to store it all.. (and if collecting things without
requiring a whole bunch of space to store the collection isn't relevant
to a liveaboard list...)

Cheers,
Kris

On Tue, Apr 26, 2011 at 11:10:10AM -0400, SteveW wrote:
> Soo well put, Ben!
> 
> I've never understood those on the list who, somewhere along the line, 
> forgot where their 'delete' key was if they had no interest in a subject. 
> Kinda like my reference to the bar at the yacht club, where in that case, as 
> you wandered around with your drink in hand, if you didn't like the 
> conversation at one end of the bar you just moved to the other end of the 
> bar. You certainly wouldn't tell the first group that "this is a yacht 
> club - you're not allowed to ponder philosophical questions".  Just the 
> concept of that has me on the floor laughing my ass off.
> 
> Oh well, it's a free society so I guess our only recourse is to allow the 
> Philistines on the list !
> 
> 
> 
> Steve Weinstein
> S/V CAPTIVA
> 1997 Hunter 376, Hull #376
> Sailing out of Oyster Bay, NY
> 
> 
> 
> All outgoing mail protected by VIPRE A/V
> 
> -Original Message- 
> From: Ben Okopnik
> Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2011 10:17 AM
> To: liveaboard@liveaboardonline.com
> Subject: Re: [Liveaboard] Question
> 
> Hey, Steve -
> 
> On Tue, Apr 26, 2011 at 09:10:36AM -0400, SteveW wrote:
> > Well put, Ben!  I've often thought one of the fun and stimulating aspects 
> > of
> > the list is the fact that not absolutely every thread is boating related.
> > It's kinda like the bar at the yacht club. The common denominator of
> > everyone there is love of boating but the range of lively conversations 
> > can
> > encompass a wide range of intellectual topics (except politics!!!) some of
> 
> On USENET, the canonical four topics to avoid were politics, guns, rape,
> and religion. No matter how they started, they always ended up in
> flames... I can't claim to have always followed that successfully, but
> then, I never did claim to be perfect. :)
> 
> > which have nothing to do with boating but are the result of a group of
> > intellectually curious people.  And then there are the Neanderthals with
> > absolutely nothing going on between their ears except their teeny little
> > preoccupation with what directly interests them and don't have the
> > intellectual curiosity to expand their world.
> >
> > If the world were left to those intellectually challenged I guess we'd 
> > still
> > all be afraid of falling off the edge of the flat earth.
> 
> Agreed, in full. The only problem is that these tail-end Charlies insist
> on hitching a ride on the trains that *we* build... oh well. It's a cost
> of civilization, I suppose.
> 
> Worth noting: "intellectual", as in "intellectual curiosity", means
> "associated with or requiring the use of the mind". In other words,
> having a mind is a requirement. All else proceeds from there.
> 
> 
> Ben
> -- 
>OKOPNIK CONSULTING
> Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business
> Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming
>   443-250-7895   http://okopnik.com   http://twitter.com/okopnik
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Re: [Liveaboard] Question

[Ben Okopnik]

On Tue, Apr 26, 2011 at 11:10:10AM -0400, SteveW wrote:
> Soo well put, Ben!
> 
> I've never understood those on the list who, somewhere along the line, 
> forgot where their 'delete' key was if they had no interest in a subject. 
> Kinda like my reference to the bar at the yacht club, where in that case, as 
> you wandered around with your drink in hand, if you didn't like the 
> conversation at one end of the bar you just moved to the other end of the 
> bar. You certainly wouldn't tell the first group that "this is a yacht 
> club - you're not allowed to ponder philosophical questions".  Just the 
> concept of that has me on the floor laughing my ass off.

[laugh] Steve, when I get up into your neck of the woods, you'll have to
show me where your favorite yacht club is. I'll happily stand you a few
beers; I can already see a mighty discussion (one that wanders all over
the place and dives into all kinds of odd corners) in the offing.
 

Ben
-- 
   OKOPNIK CONSULTING
Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business
Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming
  443-250-7895   http://okopnik.com   http://twitter.com/okopnik
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Re: [Liveaboard] Question

[SteveW]

Soo well put, Ben!

I've never understood those on the list who, somewhere along the line, 
forgot where their 'delete' key was if they had no interest in a subject. 
Kinda like my reference to the bar at the yacht club, where in that case, as 
you wandered around with your drink in hand, if you didn't like the 
conversation at one end of the bar you just moved to the other end of the 
bar. You certainly wouldn't tell the first group that "this is a yacht 
club - you're not allowed to ponder philosophical questions".  Just the 
concept of that has me on the floor laughing my ass off.

Oh well, it's a free society so I guess our only recourse is to allow the 
Philistines on the list !



Steve Weinstein
S/V CAPTIVA
1997 Hunter 376, Hull #376
Sailing out of Oyster Bay, NY



All outgoing mail protected by VIPRE A/V

-Original Message- 
From: Ben Okopnik
Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2011 10:17 AM
To: liveaboard@liveaboardonline.com
Subject: Re: [Liveaboard] Question

Hey, Steve -

On Tue, Apr 26, 2011 at 09:10:36AM -0400, SteveW wrote:
> Well put, Ben!  I've often thought one of the fun and stimulating aspects 
> of
> the list is the fact that not absolutely every thread is boating related.
> It's kinda like the bar at the yacht club. The common denominator of
> everyone there is love of boating but the range of lively conversations 
> can
> encompass a wide range of intellectual topics (except politics!!!) some of

On USENET, the canonical four topics to avoid were politics, guns, rape,
and religion. No matter how they started, they always ended up in
flames... I can't claim to have always followed that successfully, but
then, I never did claim to be perfect. :)

> which have nothing to do with boating but are the result of a group of
> intellectually curious people.  And then there are the Neanderthals with
> absolutely nothing going on between their ears except their teeny little
> preoccupation with what directly interests them and don't have the
> intellectual curiosity to expand their world.
>
> If the world were left to those intellectually challenged I guess we'd 
> still
> all be afraid of falling off the edge of the flat earth.

Agreed, in full. The only problem is that these tail-end Charlies insist
on hitching a ride on the trains that *we* build... oh well. It's a cost
of civilization, I suppose.

Worth noting: "intellectual", as in "intellectual curiosity", means
"associated with or requiring the use of the mind". In other words,
having a mind is a requirement. All else proceeds from there.


Ben
-- 
   OKOPNIK CONSULTING
Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business
Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming
  443-250-7895   http://okopnik.com   http://twitter.com/okopnik
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Re: [Liveaboard] Question

[Ben Okopnik]

Hey, Steve -

On Tue, Apr 26, 2011 at 09:10:36AM -0400, SteveW wrote:
> Well put, Ben!  I've often thought one of the fun and stimulating aspects of 
> the list is the fact that not absolutely every thread is boating related. 
> It's kinda like the bar at the yacht club. The common denominator of 
> everyone there is love of boating but the range of lively conversations can 
> encompass a wide range of intellectual topics (except politics!!!) some of 

On USENET, the canonical four topics to avoid were politics, guns, rape,
and religion. No matter how they started, they always ended up in
flames... I can't claim to have always followed that successfully, but
then, I never did claim to be perfect. :)

> which have nothing to do with boating but are the result of a group of 
> intellectually curious people.  And then there are the Neanderthals with 
> absolutely nothing going on between their ears except their teeny little 
> preoccupation with what directly interests them and don't have the 
> intellectual curiosity to expand their world.
> 
> If the world were left to those intellectually challenged I guess we'd still 
> all be afraid of falling off the edge of the flat earth.

Agreed, in full. The only problem is that these tail-end Charlies insist
on hitching a ride on the trains that *we* build... oh well. It's a cost
of civilization, I suppose.

Worth noting: "intellectual", as in "intellectual curiosity", means
"associated with or requiring the use of the mind". In other words,
having a mind is a requirement. All else proceeds from there.


Ben
-- 
   OKOPNIK CONSULTING
Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business
Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming
  443-250-7895   http://okopnik.com   http://twitter.com/okopnik
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Re: [Liveaboard] Question

[SteveW]

Well put, Ben!  I've often thought one of the fun and stimulating aspects of 
the list is the fact that not absolutely every thread is boating related. 
It's kinda like the bar at the yacht club. The common denominator of 
everyone there is love of boating but the range of lively conversations can 
encompass a wide range of intellectual topics (except politics!!!) some of 
which have nothing to do with boating but are the result of a group of 
intellectually curious people.  And then there are the Neanderthals with 
absolutely nothing going on between their ears except their teeny little 
preoccupation with what directly interests them and don't have the 
intellectual curiosity to expand their world.

If the world were left to those intellectually challenged I guess we'd still 
all be afraid of falling off the edge of the flat earth.

In any event, I'm going back to Spring Commissioning

S



Steve Weinstein
S/V CAPTIVA
1997 Hunter 376, Hull #376
Sailing out of Oyster Bay, NY



All outgoing mail protected by VIPRE A/V

-Original Message- 
From: Ben Okopnik
Sent: Monday, April 25, 2011 11:24 PM
To: liveaboard@liveaboardonline.com
Subject: Re: [Liveaboard] Question

On Mon, Apr 25, 2011 at 10:42:10PM -0400, jjd...@aol.com wrote:
> Agree, It is called mental masturbation.
>
> In a message dated 4/25/2011 10:39:01 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
> floridak...@aol.com writes:
>
> What the fuck!

[grin] Oh, the impotent, chittering outrage. So cute... reminds me of a
chipmunk.

Hint: if you have nothing useful to contribute, don't bother airing your
opinion about how unimportant the question is. It's been done, redone,
and over-done. Doing the AOL thing ("Me too!") for the Nth time is
indeed mental masturbation.


Ben
-- 
   OKOPNIK CONSULTING
Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business
Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming
  443-250-7895   http://okopnik.com   http://twitter.com/okopnik
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Re: [Liveaboard] Question

[ROBERT ZANUSSI]

Excellent. That is all I asked. Too many people (and I am not aiming at Norm) 
tend to shoot from the mouth with no facts.

I tried in my limited little brain to figure this out but to no avail. So I am 
glad that someone proved proof.

BTW, I have always enjoyed Norm's posts and have never found reason to question 
anything he said before this. I don't want anyone, especially Norm, to think I 
was picking on him. And I am glad that the proof was produced. (Even tho I 
can't understand it)

I could continue whining and claim that perhaps he took what was said the wrong 
way, but I think this topic should die a natural death. (Now is that death due 
to lack of O2 or an over abundance of CO2 and would that be considered a 
natural death?)

Craig, you must be a diver of some sort as you covered several points that are 
discussed in normal rec diving and covered in rebreather diving.

Rob


> Assuming he was talking of liquid water,
> 
> Density of air, 0 
> C:1.2920 kg·m^−3 
> Density of water 4 C: 1000  kg·m^−3
> 
> density of 
> granite   2.75 g/cm^3
> density of 
> basalt3.0 g/cm^3
> 
> Norm is correct.
> 
> By the way Norm, the technology for extended diving time uses 
> the divers breath circulated through a CO2 scrubber and the 
> cleansed air, now about 16% oxygen, still enough to breathe, is 
> recirculated to the diver with a little bit of make up air from 
> the high-pressure cylinder to keep the pressure right.  
> There is enough oxygen remaining in an exhaled breath to support 
> life, hence mouth-to-mouth resucitation works.  CO2 is the 
> main drive for inhaling and exhaling air.  When one 
> hyperventilates, the normal CO2 in the blood is blown off, and 
> one can hold one's breath long enough to pass out before the 
> urge to breathe reasserts itself.


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Re: [Liveaboard] Question

[Ben Okopnik]

On Mon, Apr 25, 2011 at 09:08:34PM -0600, ROBERT ZANUSSI wrote:
> Norm, its great that you have your own opinions but before you say this
> gentleman, who has a degree of some sort in geology, perhaps even a Phd, is
> wrong, I would like you to provide some proof. In other words, find a
> documented source which backs up your opinion.

Air has a density of ~1 at sea level; water, ~1000. The densest "common"
material we know of is osmium, at 22570; less than a 23-to-1 ratio
between water and itself. In other words, there isn't enough "swing
room" possible between materials as similar as two kinds of rock to come
anywhere near the differential between air and water. So, yes, the
learned gentleman was wrong, by a large margin.


Ben
-- 
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Re: [Liveaboard] Question

[Craig Scott]

Assuming he was talking of liquid water,

Density of air, 0 C:1.2920 kg·m^−3 
Density of water 4 C:   1000  kg·m^−3

density of granite  2.75 g/cm^3
density of basalt   3.0 g/cm^3

Norm is correct.

By the way Norm, the technology for extended diving time uses the divers breath 
circulated through a CO2 scrubber and the cleansed air, now about 16% oxygen, 
still enough to breathe, is recirculated to the diver with a little bit of make 
up air from the high-pressure cylinder to keep the pressure right.  There is 
enough oxygen remaining in an exhaled breath to support life, hence 
mouth-to-mouth resucitation works.  CO2 is the main drive for inhaling and 
exhaling air.  When one hyperventilates, the normal CO2 in the blood is blown 
off, and one can hold one's breath long enough to pass out before the urge to 
breathe reasserts itself.

Craig Scott   RN AE6E
ACLS ASLS BDLS PALS TNCC
Columbia, South Carolina


-Original Message-
From: liveaboard-boun...@liveaboardonline.com 
[mailto:liveaboard-boun...@liveaboardonline.com] On Behalf Of ROBERT ZANUSSI
Sent: Monday, April 25, 2011 23:09
To: liveaboard@liveaboardonline.com
Subject: Re: [Liveaboard] Question

Norm, its great that you have your own opinions but before you say this 
gentleman, who has a degree of some sort in geology, perhaps even a Phd, is 
wrong, I would like you to provide some proof. In other words, find a 
documented source which backs up your opinion.

Rob


> 
> I have seen many times in storytelling a situation where people are 
> trapped in an airtight environment and it is said that they will run 
> out of oxygen.
> 
> In ordinary storytelling it might not be such a problem, after all, it 
> is fiction.
> 
> 
> But recently I have seen the same thing said on the Science Channel, 
> in both fiction and non-fiction and I think that the assertion is 
> wrong.
> 
> 
> People that see these falsehoods in a semi-truthful or instructional 
> situation on the tube, especially children who are trying to form a 
> truthful picture of the world around them, causes confusion that 
> required extra effort to change to reality.
> 
> A classic example was on the Science Channel some months ago on a show 
> called How the Earth was Made.  A man who was said to be a geologist 
> held a piece of basalt in one hand and a piece of granite in the 
> other.  He explained that the granite was less dense than the basalt 
> so that was why the granite was prevalent on the surface of the earth.  
> Which was fine.  But he interjected that the difference in density 
> between the granite and the basalt was greater than difference
> between the density of water and air.   This is so 
> obviously wrong it would simply be laughable except for the fact that 
> someone portrayed as a teacher was putting false information into a 
> child's mind which will have to be changed eventually.  I just believe 
> lying to children is wrong.





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Re: [Liveaboard] Question

[ROBERT ZANUSSI]

Norm, its great that you have your own opinions but before you say this 
gentleman, who has a degree of some sort in geology, perhaps even a Phd, is 
wrong, I would like you to provide some proof. In other words, find a 
documented source which backs up your opinion.

Rob


> 
> I have seen many times in storytelling a situation where people 
> are trapped in an airtight environment and it is said that they 
> will run out of oxygen.
> 
> In ordinary storytelling it might not be such a problem, after 
> all, it is fiction.
> 
> 
> But recently I have seen the same thing said on the Science 
> Channel, in both fiction and non-fiction and I think that the 
> assertion is wrong.
> 
> 
> People that see these falsehoods in a semi-truthful or 
> instructional situation on the tube, especially children who are 
> trying to form a truthful picture of the world around them, 
> causes confusion that required extra effort to change to reality.
> 
> A classic example was on the Science Channel some months ago on 
> a show called How the Earth was Made.  A man who was said 
> to be a geologist held a piece of basalt in one hand and a piece 
> of granite in the other.  He explained that the granite was 
> less dense than the basalt so that was why the granite was 
> prevalent on the surface of the earth.  Which was 
> fine.  But he interjected that the difference in density 
> between the granite and the basalt was greater than difference 
> between the density of water and air.   This is so 
> obviously wrong it would simply be laughable except for the fact 
> that someone portrayed as a teacher was putting false 
> information into a child's mind which will have to be changed 
> eventually.  I just believe lying to children is wrong.


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Re: [Liveaboard] Question

[banders...@earthlink.net]

I have seen many times in storytelling a situation where people are trapped in 
an airtight environment and it is said that they will run out of oxygen.

In ordinary storytelling it might not be such a problem, after all, it is 
fiction.


But recently I have seen the same thing said on the Science Channel, in both 
fiction and non-fiction and I think that the assertion is wrong.


People that see these falsehoods in a semi-truthful or instructional situation 
on the tube, especially children who are trying to form a truthful picture of 
the world around them, causes confusion that required extra effort to change to 
reality.

A classic example was on the Science Channel some months ago on a show called 
How the Earth was Made.  A man who was said to be a geologist held a piece of 
basalt in one hand and a piece of granite in the other.  He explained that the 
granite was less dense than the basalt so that was why the granite was 
prevalent on the surface of the earth.  Which was fine.  But he interjected 
that the difference in density between the granite and the basalt was greater 
than difference between the density of water and air.   This is so obviously 
wrong it would simply be laughable except for the fact that someone portrayed 
as a teacher was putting false information into a child's mind which will have 
to be changed eventually.  I just believe lying to children is wrong.



Norm
S/V Bandersnatch



Does it matter??

In a message dated 4/25/2011 1:32:44 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, 
banders...@earthlink.net writes:

A friend and I are having a discussion.

If one is locked in an airtight compartment, does one die of lack of oxygen
or carbon dioxide poisoning?


Norm
S/V Bandersnatch___
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Re: [Liveaboard] Question

[FloridaKeyz]

Maybe you should get more space??
 
 
In a message dated 4/25/2011 10:40:25 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
jjd...@aol.com writes:

We need a  Bandwidth Meter what a waste of  space.

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Re: [Liveaboard] Question

[JJDTWO]

Agree, It is called mental masturbation.
 
 
In a message dated 4/25/2011 10:39:01 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
floridak...@aol.com writes:

What the fuck!
 
 
In a message dated 4/25/2011 10:37:08 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
b...@okopnik.com writes:

On  Mon, Apr 25, 2011 at 10:16:41PM -0400, floridak...@aol.com wrote:
>  Does it matter??

We humans do not live by bread alone. If man didn't  ask all kinds of
questions, including ones that didn't seem to matter at  the time, we'd
still be paddling logs... scratch that, still sitting on  land and dully
staring at the water, *not* wondering whether it was of  any use.

Asking questions keeps your brain alive; hence, the  extraordinarily low
rate of senility among those who practice the hard  sciences. Hence, Norm
with his (very) lively brain. I, for one, wish that  more people would
emulate his example.


Ben
-- 
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Re: [Liveaboard] Question

[JJDTWO]

We need a  Bandwidth Meter what a waste of  space.
 
 
In a message dated 4/25/2011 10:37:05 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
b...@okopnik.com writes:

On Mon,  Apr 25, 2011 at 10:16:41PM -0400, floridak...@aol.com wrote:
> Does it  matter??

We humans do not live by bread alone. If man didn't ask all  kinds of
questions, including ones that didn't seem to matter at the time,  we'd
still be paddling logs... scratch that, still sitting on land and  dully
staring at the water, *not* wondering whether it was of any  use.

Asking questions keeps your brain alive; hence, the  extraordinarily low
rate of senility among those who practice the hard  sciences. Hence, Norm
with his (very) lively brain. I, for one, wish that  more people would
emulate his example.


Ben
-- 
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Custom Computing Solutions  For Your Business
Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom  programming
443-250-7895   http://okopnik.comhttp://twitter.com/okopnik
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Re: [Liveaboard] Question

[FloridaKeyz]

What the fuck!
 
 
In a message dated 4/25/2011 10:37:08 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
b...@okopnik.com writes:

On Mon,  Apr 25, 2011 at 10:16:41PM -0400, floridak...@aol.com wrote:
> Does it  matter??

We humans do not live by bread alone. If man didn't ask all  kinds of
questions, including ones that didn't seem to matter at the time,  we'd
still be paddling logs... scratch that, still sitting on land and  dully
staring at the water, *not* wondering whether it was of any  use.

Asking questions keeps your brain alive; hence, the  extraordinarily low
rate of senility among those who practice the hard  sciences. Hence, Norm
with his (very) lively brain. I, for one, wish that  more people would
emulate his example.


Ben
-- 
OKOPNIK CONSULTING
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Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom  programming
443-250-7895   http://okopnik.comhttp://twitter.com/okopnik
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Re: [Liveaboard] Question

[Ben Okopnik]

On Mon, Apr 25, 2011 at 10:16:41PM -0400, floridak...@aol.com wrote:
> Does it matter??

We humans do not live by bread alone. If man didn't ask all kinds of
questions, including ones that didn't seem to matter at the time, we'd
still be paddling logs... scratch that, still sitting on land and dully
staring at the water, *not* wondering whether it was of any use.

Asking questions keeps your brain alive; hence, the extraordinarily low
rate of senility among those who practice the hard sciences. Hence, Norm
with his (very) lively brain. I, for one, wish that more people would
emulate his example.


Ben
-- 
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Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business
Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming
  443-250-7895   http://okopnik.com   http://twitter.com/okopnik
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Re: [Liveaboard] Question

[FloridaKeyz]

Does it matter??
 
 
In a message dated 4/25/2011 1:32:44 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
banders...@earthlink.net writes:


A  friend and I are having a discussion.

If one is locked in an airtight  compartment, does one die of lack of oxygen
or carbon dioxide  poisoning?


Norm
S/V  Bandersnatch


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Re: [Liveaboard] Question

[Philip]

I believe that it has to do with changes to the partial pressure of each
gas that causes the problem. 

As the percentage of CO2 in the air increases the red blood platelets
are less able to rid themselves of CO2 gas, and the corresponding
decrease of the P.P. of O2 makes it more difficult to pick up the
Oxygen. 

While CO2 is not poisonous, it does not support life. In the case Norm
cited the occupants would die of CO2 intoxication. This would be the
case even though there were still O2 in the  air of the chamber.

If you would like to simulate the experience, just put a plastic bag
over your head and tie it tight around your neck. (I would recommend a
slipped hitch). Pol Pot used this technique to cheaply murderer many of
his countryman. Cheaper than bullets and, being the bags are reusable,
ecologically sound too.

I would suggest you have a REAL friend in attendance during this
experiment to remove the bag at the appropriate time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas_pressure

I may have gotten this wrong and would appreciate any comments from more
learned individuals.

Philip


On Mon, 2011-04-25 at 13:31 -0400, banders...@earthlink.net wrote:
> A friend and I are having a discussion.
> 
> If one is locked in an airtight compartment, does one die of lack of oxygen
> or carbon dioxide poisoning?
> 
> 
> Norm
> S/V Bandersnatch
> 
> 
> ___
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-- 
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Philip & Marilyn Lange
AE4OVKD4JRC
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"There's no point in making a plan if
 you're not going to pretend to follow it!"

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Re: [Liveaboard] Question

[Ben Okopnik]

On Mon, Apr 25, 2011 at 03:12:47PM -0400, Kris Coward wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 25, 2011 at 02:09:24PM -0400, Ben Okopnik wrote:
> > In terms of numbers, the normal level of C02 in a room (had to look this
> > stuff up) is about 600ppm, while outdoors it's 300-400ppm (i.e., 0.04%
> > concentration.) The average concentration at which most people become
> > aware of a problem is over 2% (2ppm), or about 50X the outdoor
> > level, and it takes a 5% concentration to become directly toxic. You'd
> > be oxygen-starved well before that point, I would think.
> 
> Ahhh, so when shrinking the bits of my winter enclosure that can only be
> shrunk from the inside, it's when I get somewhere between 2% and 5% CO2
> that I stop the heat gun and let the enclosure vent for a minute or two
> before resuming :)

Wow, Kris. Other people have to pay lots of money to get high; you just
go on about your life as normal, and get it for _free_ as a side effect.
I've heard about people sneaking over the border into Canada to get
cheaper drugs, but I never realized it was *that* ubiquitous an effect... :)


Ben
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Re: [Liveaboard] Question

[Kris Coward]

On Mon, Apr 25, 2011 at 02:09:24PM -0400, Ben Okopnik wrote:
> In terms of numbers, the normal level of C02 in a room (had to look this
> stuff up) is about 600ppm, while outdoors it's 300-400ppm (i.e., 0.04%
> concentration.) The average concentration at which most people become
> aware of a problem is over 2% (2ppm), or about 50X the outdoor
> level, and it takes a 5% concentration to become directly toxic. You'd
> be oxygen-starved well before that point, I would think.

Ahhh, so when shrinking the bits of my winter enclosure that can only be
shrunk from the inside, it's when I get somewhere between 2% and 5% CO2
that I stop the heat gun and let the enclosure vent for a minute or two
before resuming :)

Cheers,
Kris

-- 
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GPG Fingerprint: 2BF3 957D 310A FEEC 4733  830E 21A4 05C7 1FEB 12B3
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Re: [Liveaboard] Question

[Ben Okopnik]

On Mon, Apr 25, 2011 at 01:31:49PM -0400, banders...@earthlink.net wrote:
> 
> A friend and I are having a discussion.
> 
> If one is locked in an airtight compartment, does one die of lack of oxygen
> or carbon dioxide poisoning?

>From what I recall from when I was hitting the books for my dive
certification (ended up not going for the high-end cert for a variety of
reasons, but I did study up for it), it would be pretty hard to get
poisoned by CO2 until the level gets really, really high. That, coupled
with the constant necessity for a relatively large volume of oxygen,
makes me lean heavily toward hypoxia as the primary danger.

In terms of numbers, the normal level of C02 in a room (had to look this
stuff up) is about 600ppm, while outdoors it's 300-400ppm (i.e., 0.04%
concentration.) The average concentration at which most people become
aware of a problem is over 2% (2ppm), or about 50X the outdoor
level, and it takes a 5% concentration to become directly toxic. You'd
be oxygen-starved well before that point, I would think.

But that's just an educated guess on my part. :)


Ben
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Re: [Liveaboard] Question

[Kris Coward]

Well lack of oxygen seems a slightly more pleasant way to go...

IIRC, breathing turns oxygen to carbon dioxide at 1:1 %vol in the air.
Normal atmospheric concentration of O2 is around 19%, and CO2 is a trace
gas. 5% CO2 is considered to be potentially lethally toxic, whereas the
minimum O2 concentration required to survive is generally figured at
17%, so after converting 2% of the air in the compartment from O2 to
CO2, you'd be looking at a potentially lethal O2 shortage, but would
only be about half way to a potentially lethal CO2 concentration.

Cheers (because this is such a cheerful topic),
Kris

On Mon, Apr 25, 2011 at 01:35:27PM -0400, jjd...@aol.com wrote:
> Does it matter you are dead. :-)
>  
>  
> In a message dated 4/25/2011 1:32:42 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
> banders...@earthlink.net writes:
> 
> 
> A  friend and I are having a discussion.
> 
> If one is locked in an airtight  compartment, does one die of lack of oxygen
> or carbon dioxide  poisoning?
> 
> 
> Norm
> S/V  Bandersnatch
> 
> 
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-- 
Kris Coward http://unripe.melon.org/
GPG Fingerprint: 2BF3 957D 310A FEEC 4733  830E 21A4 05C7 1FEB 12B3
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Re: [Liveaboard] Question

[p.mcconnell]

 Carbon Dioxide is not poisonous



 On Mon, 25 Apr 2011 13:31:49 -0400, "banders...@earthlink.net" 
  wrote:
> A friend and I are having a discussion.
>
> If one is locked in an airtight compartment, does one die of lack of 
> oxygen
> or carbon dioxide poisoning?
>
>
> Norm
> S/V Bandersnatch
>
>
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Re: [Liveaboard] Question

[GypsyE37]

banders...@earthlink.net writes:

If one  is locked in an airtight compartment, does one die of lack of oxygen
or  carbon dioxide poisoning?  Norm
If I recall from submarine personal you will suffocate due to lack of  
oxygen.  The movies always show it nice an clean...its not.   But  lets face it 
does it matter.
Carl
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Re: [Liveaboard] Question

[JJDTWO]

Does it matter you are dead. :-)
 
 
In a message dated 4/25/2011 1:32:42 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
banders...@earthlink.net writes:


A  friend and I are having a discussion.

If one is locked in an airtight  compartment, does one die of lack of oxygen
or carbon dioxide  poisoning?


Norm
S/V  Bandersnatch


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Re: [Liveaboard] Question: where is the 6th Fleet?

[Ron Rogers]

Walt,

I just found this detailed commentary. It leaves exact locations up in the
air, but gives a well-rounded picture. CBS also reports that the USS
Kearsage Amphibious Landing Group has moved to the Eastern end of the Suez
Canal. She has USMC Harrier jets embarked plus a Marine EU.

"Sending a clearer public message about the requirement to evacuate
Americans from Egypt would have been advisable as well.  Readers of
DEBKAfile  learned last week that the
USS *Kearsarge* (LHD-3) amphibious group arrived in the Great Bitter Lake,
at the southern entrance to the Suez Canal, and speculation was rampant as
to what this meant.  As outlined at the first link above, *Kearsarge* could
be there for multiple reasons, but chief among them are (a) the potential
need to evacuate large numbers of Americans with armed security provided by
the Marine Corps, and (b) the fact that the *Kearsarge* group has been
deployed since August 2010 and is due to return home – to the East coast,
through the Suez Canal.

It’s hard to say whether the question mark over Canal security was a factor
in USS *Enterprise *(CVN-65) remaining in the Mediterranean during the last
week, but it may have been.  I doubt it was the primary factor:  we probably
wanted to have a carrier on-call in the Med once Egypt erupted.  It’s not
clear whether *Enterprise* has, in fact, gone through the Canal at this
point, but the US Navy website now lists her as being attached to the US
Fifth Fleet.  That could mean either that she is sitting in Port Said on the
Mediterranean side of Egypt, waiting to go through the Canal, or that she is
in transit or has just completed it.

*Enterprise* 
deployedfrom
the East coast on 13 January and arrived
in Lisbon, Portugal
for a port
visit the day after the first major demonstration in Egypt on the
25th.  After entering the
Medon 31
January, she conducted
flight 
operationsin
the central Med.  From there she transited to a port visit in
Marmaris,
Turkeythat
started on 8 February.  Her port
visit in 
Marmariswas
reportedly for four days.

*Enterprise* has been scheduled to head to Southwest Asia – the Persian
Gulf/Indian Ocean area – where San Diego-based USS *Carl Vinson* (CVN-70) is
on-station.
USS *Abraham Lincoln* (CVN-72), which has been deployed since September, has
concluded operations
there and is
probably heading for home port in Bremerton, Washington (no
doubt with stops for R&R along the way).

All of these forces are on scheduled deployments.  But there is wild and
largely inaccurate speculation about them, and there are no statements from
the Obama administration to clarify what their presence means wherever they
happen to show up.  Providing this clarification is not a matter of chasing
around after gray-hull sightings, offering explanations; it should be done
by separate political statements of US interests. Because Egypt’s government
is in flux – i.e., an important geopolitical condition has changed – US
interests and policy priorities need stating.

No reference at all need be made to military forces.  And when the questions
about them start to come, the administration can say, “Well, we don’t talk
about those specifics.  I’ve stated what our concerns are.  I’m confident we
can address any contingencies that might crop up, but there’s nothing to be
specific about right now.  We’ll work with Egypt to ensure that the Canal
stays open and safe and that the peace accord in the Sinai is honored.”

If the *Kearsarge* group, with the 26th Marine Expeditionary Unit embarked,
has been supporting evacuation operations, a public commendation would be
nice."

Ron Rogers
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Re: [Liveaboard] Question: where is the 6th Fleet?

[Ben Okopnik]

On Sun, Feb 27, 2011 at 04:30:20PM -0500, Philip wrote:
> On Sun, 2011-02-27 at 15:03 -0500, Ron Rogers wrote:
> > OK Ben,
> > 
> > I'm taking my 11 aircraft carriers and going out to play in the sun. 
> 
> 
> Call me Ishmael. Some years ago - never mind how long precisely - having
> little or no money in my purse, and nothing particular to interest me on
> shore, I thought I would sail about a little and see the watery part of
> the world. It is a way I have of driving off the spleen, and regulating
> the circulation. Whenever I find myself growing grim about the mouth;
> whenever it is a damp, drizzly November in my soul; whenever I find
> myself involuntarily pausing before coffin warehouses, and bringing up
> the rear of every funeral I meet; and especially whenever my hypos
> [hypochondria] get such an upper hand of me, that it requires a strong
> moral principle to prevent me from deliberately stepping into the
> street, and methodically knocking people's hats off - then, I account it
> high time to get to sea as soon as I can. This is my substitute for
> pistol and ball. With a philosophical flourish Cato throws himself upon
> his sword; I quietly take to the ship. There is nothing surprising in
> this. If they but knew it, almost all men in their degree, some time or
> other, cherish very nearly the same feelings towards the ocean with me.

[clap-clap-clap] Bravo!

Perhaps this should become the new list methodology for responding to
inflammatory topics: quoting beautiful sea-related writing. I have quite
a lot of Kipling stored in my head; I'm sure that among all of us,
there's a wealth of gorgeous, calming prose that would ease the heart
and lighten the soul. Much more pleasant than political brangling... and
perhaps the people involved will take note and shift to responding in
this way. One can always hope.


Ben
-- 
   OKOPNIK CONSULTING
Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business
Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming
  443-250-7895   http://okopnik.com   http://twitter.com/okopnik
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Re: [Liveaboard] Question: where is the 6th Fleet?

[Kris Coward]

On Sun, Feb 27, 2011 at 03:03:39PM -0500, Ron Rogers wrote:
> OK Ben,
> 
> I'm taking my 11 aircraft carriers and going out to play in the sun. I'll go
> look at the remains of the boats sunk by the fire. I'm really surprised that
> members of this list find it acceptable to talk politics. Like you, I will
> simply hit the delete key in future. Sometimes, having worked in the Office
> of the Secretary of  Defense and the State Department can be a liability.
> Reality sucks.

Speaking of the fire, how's the environmental remediation been going,
and how's your home doing in terms of feeling like home? (Are those
sunken boats at least hauled out into a yard where any remaining
leakiness can only serve to contaminate, well, marine yard)

Cheers,
Kris

-- 
Kris Coward http://unripe.melon.org/
GPG Fingerprint: 2BF3 957D 310A FEEC 4733  830E 21A4 05C7 1FEB 12B3
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Re: [Liveaboard] Question: where is the 6th Fleet?

[Alan Wagner]

Where is the 6th Fleet/  For those curious who still want to know . . . . .

 

It looks like it is right where it should be.  From what I can see, the USS
Enterprise was in Lisbon, Portugal on January 26 to begin its deployment
into the Med on February 4, 2011.

 

(http://www.navy.mil/search/display.asp?story_id=58200).  From Portugal it
was headed into the Med and over to Turkey.  The entire carrier strike group
was in the med and is apparently still there.

 

http://military-online.blogspot.com/2011/02/6th-fleet-commander-visits-enter
prise.html:

 

_


Friday, February 11, 2011


6th Fleet Commander Visits Enterprise 


 <http://www.navy.mil/management/photodb/photos/110117-N-5324W-005.jpg> 

>From Enterprise Strike Group Public Affairs

 

USS ENTERPRISE, At Sea (NNS) -- Commander, U.S. 6th Fleet, visited USS
Enterprise (CVN 65) to meet with senior carrier strike group (CSG)
leadership, and to thank the crew at the beginning of their deployment, Feb.
4.

 

Vice Adm. Harry B. Harris, Jr., and Command Master Chief
(AW/SS/SW/FMF/DV/PJ) Jay R. Wood Jr., command master chief of U.S. 6th Fleet
headquarters; flew aboard the deployed aircraft carrier as the CSG continued
theater security cooperation efforts in the Mediterranean.

 

"What you are doing is important," said Harris. "You have already visited
Portugal and will soon arrive in Turkey, and these visits are important to
our nation and important to 6th Fleet. Later, you will be supporting our
combat troops in Afghanistan in the 5th Fleet [area of operations]. I
applaud you for your energy and I thank you for your service."

 

The leaders toured the ship and met with Sailors and Marines to thank them
personally for their efforts in support of the deployment.

 

During the ship's recent stop in Lisbon, the ship invited more than 1,000
guests to the ship for a reception, tours and media visits during the
four-day visit. The crew participated in three community relations projects,
and senior military commanders from both countries held briefings and
meetings discussing military-to-military capabilities, while the crew took
in the sights and sounds that their host nation provided. 

 

Enterprise Strike Group consists of Enterprise, the guided-missile cruiser
USS Leyte Gulf (CG 55), the guided-missile destroyers USS Bulkeley (DDG 84),
USS Barry (DDG 52) and USS Mason (DDG 87), USNS Arctic (T-AOE 8), Carrier
Air Wing 1 and Destroyer Squadron 2. 

 

For news regarding Enterprise Strike Group's deployment, visit the USS
Enterprise Facebook page at www.facebook.com/USS.Enterprise.CVN.65. 

Posted by Sergeant Zachary J. Foster at
<http://military-online.blogspot.com/2011/02/6th-fleet-commander-visits-ente
rprise.html> 9:20 PM
<http://www.blogger.com/email-post.g?blogID=37845825&postID=1029830259235567
303>
<http://www.blogger.com/post-edit.g?blogID=37845825&postID=10298302592355673
03> 

Labels:  <http://military-online.blogspot.com/search/label/navy> navy,
<http://military-online.blogspot.com/search/label/usns%20arctic> usns
arctic,  <http://military-online.blogspot.com/search/label/uss%20barry> uss
barry,  <http://military-online.blogspot.com/search/label/uss%20bulkeley>
uss bulkeley,
<http://military-online.blogspot.com/search/label/uss%20enterprise> uss
enterprise,
<http://military-online.blogspot.com/search/label/uss%20leyte%20gulf> uss
leyte gulf,  <http://military-online.blogspot.com/search/label/uss%20mason>
uss mason 

 

 

 

 

Alan Wagner

Tampa, Florida 

"Passage of Time"

 

 

  _  

From: liveaboard-boun...@liveaboardonline.com
[mailto:liveaboard-boun...@liveaboardonline.com] On Behalf Of Ron Rogers
Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2011 12:40 PM
To: liveaboard@liveaboardonline.com
Subject: Re: [Liveaboard] Question: where is the 6th Fleet?

 

HANNITY: All right, I'll concur with you. All right, so then what's the
future for him? What is the future for North Africa? What is the future for
the Middle East? My guess is that we risk more extremism --

NORTH: Much more. There are very few options left to this administration
because decisions made by the Obama administration to take carriers offline
and ships offline. We have no ability to respond in any way militarily.

We have no carriers in the Mediterranean today for the first time in 31
years. You have no American carriers in the Mediterranean, no battle groups
and you have Iranian ships. Because this administration has made bad
decisions all the way along line. It's not a good formula, Sean. The good
news is at the end of the day, Muammar Qaddafi is a dead man.

Watch the last few minutes:

http://tinyurl.com/66zqunn




 

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Re: [Liveaboard] Question: where is the 6th Fleet?

[Philip]

On Sun, 2011-02-27 at 15:03 -0500, Ron Rogers wrote:
> OK Ben,
> 
> I'm taking my 11 aircraft carriers and going out to play in the sun. 


Call me Ishmael. Some years ago - never mind how long precisely - having
little or no money in my purse, and nothing particular to interest me on
shore, I thought I would sail about a little and see the watery part of
the world. It is a way I have of driving off the spleen, and regulating
the circulation. Whenever I find myself growing grim about the mouth;
whenever it is a damp, drizzly November in my soul; whenever I find
myself involuntarily pausing before coffin warehouses, and bringing up
the rear of every funeral I meet; and especially whenever my hypos
[hypochondria] get such an upper hand of me, that it requires a strong
moral principle to prevent me from deliberately stepping into the
street, and methodically knocking people's hats off - then, I account it
high time to get to sea as soon as I can. This is my substitute for
pistol and ball. With a philosophical flourish Cato throws himself upon
his sword; I quietly take to the ship. There is nothing surprising in
this. If they but knew it, almost all men in their degree, some time or
other, cherish very nearly the same feelings towards the ocean with me.

Philip
-- 
S/V ORYOKI
Currently lying in Beaufort NC

"There's no point in making a plan if
 you're going to pretend to follow it!"

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Re: [Liveaboard] Question: where is the 6th Fleet?

[Ron Rogers]

On Sun, Feb 27, 2011 at 1:12 PM, Sea Quell crew. wrote:

>
> Ron,
>
> I don't need you and your superior knowledge of news to protect me from
> alternate viewpoints.
>
> If you can't handle someone asking a question which may raise the hair
> on your neck, then find a list of like-minded people. This list is
> obviously too diverse and open-minded for you.
>
> -Neal.
>
>
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Re: [Liveaboard] Question: where is the 6th Fleet?

[Ron Rogers]

OK Ben,

I'm taking my 11 aircraft carriers and going out to play in the sun. I'll go
look at the remains of the boats sunk by the fire. I'm really surprised that
members of this list find it acceptable to talk politics. Like you, I will
simply hit the delete key in future. Sometimes, having worked in the Office
of the Secretary of  Defense and the State Department can be a liability.
Reality sucks.

Ron Rogers

On Sun, Feb 27, 2011 at 2:13 PM, Ben Okopnik  wrote:

> > - Original Message -
> > From: ahmet erkan
> > To: liveaboard@liveaboardonline.com
> > Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2011 11:51 AM
> > Subject: Re: [Liveaboard] Question: where is the 6th Fleet?
> >
> > Typical hit and run tactic for bullies :
> >
> > 1. Attack the person who entertains an opposing idea.
> > 2. Push own opinions (decorated with biased examples) as the only
> sensible
> > strategy.
> > 3. Push own conclusions.
> > 4. Blame the victim and win support by issuing orders to keep
> political
> > discussions off the list.
> >
> > Once in a while as a break from boating related subjects, I would
> prefer to
> > hear Walter's genuine
> > opinions about World affairs, rather than see him bullied.
>
> Ignoring for the moment the fact of Ahmet's own usual habit of bitchy
> little comments and impotent threats (the reason that I kill-filed him
> quite a while ago; the only time I get to see his posts is when someone
> else cites them), I must say that in the main, I have to agree with
> this. I don't see that Walter was pushing any particular agenda, or
> taking up a political stance.
>
> Ron, I understand that you may have been rubbed raw by the current ugly
> rhetoric about this issue in other places. Please do consider that you
> may also have been hyper-sensitized by it to the point of treating
> anything on the subject that does not explicitly espouse your viewpoint
> as supporting the opposite side. This is neither an accurate perception
> nor a reasonable way to approach the world. When you reach that point,
> it may be a good idea to drop the issue, walk away from the keyboard for
> a while - or possibly kill-file, either permanently or temporarily,
> people that you find affect your peace of mind.
>
> Take a deep breath, sip a cup of tea, go look at the ocean. Then come
> back in a better frame of mind and talk about something different. No
> major harm done (not trying to speak for anyone else here, but that's
> what it looks like to me), no foul. Let it go.
>
>
> Ben
>
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Re: [Liveaboard] Question: where is the 6th Fleet?

[idhtfts]

At 02:13 PM 2/27/2011, Ben Okopnik wrote:
>Take a deep breath, sip a cup of tea, go look at the ocean.

Isn't it great how water can have a calming effect on oneself. It does 
for me at least.

-Maurice


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Re: [Liveaboard] Question: where is the 6th Fleet?

[Ben Okopnik]

> - Original Message -
> From: ahmet erkan
> To: liveaboard@liveaboardonline.com
> Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2011 11:51 AM
>     Subject: Re: [Liveaboard] Question: where is the 6th Fleet?
> 
> Typical hit and run tactic for bullies :
>  
> 1. Attack the person who entertains an opposing idea.
> 2. Push own opinions (decorated with biased examples) as the only sensible
> strategy.
> 3. Push own conclusions.
> 4. Blame the victim and win support by issuing orders to keep political
> discussions off the list.
>  
> Once in a while as a break from boating related subjects, I would prefer 
> to
> hear Walter's genuine
> opinions about World affairs, rather than see him bullied.

Ignoring for the moment the fact of Ahmet's own usual habit of bitchy
little comments and impotent threats (the reason that I kill-filed him
quite a while ago; the only time I get to see his posts is when someone
else cites them), I must say that in the main, I have to agree with
this. I don't see that Walter was pushing any particular agenda, or
taking up a political stance.

Ron, I understand that you may have been rubbed raw by the current ugly
rhetoric about this issue in other places. Please do consider that you
may also have been hyper-sensitized by it to the point of treating
anything on the subject that does not explicitly espouse your viewpoint
as supporting the opposite side. This is neither an accurate perception
nor a reasonable way to approach the world. When you reach that point,
it may be a good idea to drop the issue, walk away from the keyboard for
a while - or possibly kill-file, either permanently or temporarily,
people that you find affect your peace of mind.

Take a deep breath, sip a cup of tea, go look at the ocean. Then come
back in a better frame of mind and talk about something different. No
major harm done (not trying to speak for anyone else here, but that's
what it looks like to me), no foul. Let it go.


Ben
-- 
   OKOPNIK CONSULTING
Custom Computing Solutions For Your Business
Expert-led Training | Dynamic, vital websites | Custom programming
  443-250-7895   http://okopnik.com   http://twitter.com/okopnik
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Re: [Liveaboard] Question: where is the 6th Fleet?

[Steve Weinstein]

Amen, Ahmet!

Very well said


Steve Weinstein
S/V CAPTIVA
1997 Hunter 376, Hull #376
Sailing out of Oyster Bay, NY

All outgoing mail protected by VIPRE A/V


  - Original Message - 
  From: ahmet erkan 
  To: liveaboard@liveaboardonline.com 
  Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2011 11:51 AM
  Subject: Re: [Liveaboard] Question: where is the 6th Fleet?


  Typical hit and run tactic for bullies :
   
  1. Attack the person who entertains an opposing idea.
  2. Push own opinions (decorated with biased examples) as the only sensible 
strategy. 
  3. Push own conclusions.
  4. Blame the victim and win support by issuing orders to keep political 
discussions off the list.
   
  Once in a while as a break from boating related subjects, I would prefer to 
hear Walter's genuine 
  opinions about World affairs, rather than see him bullied.
   
  Fair winds
  Ahmet
   
   
   

--
  Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2011 22:07:19 -0500
  From: rcroge...@gmail.com
  To: liveaboard@liveaboardonline.com
  Subject: Re: [Liveaboard] Question: where is the 6th Fleet?

  Steve,

  You have not received the emails from right-wingers that I have. You have not 
read Ollie North's column. They all say the the same thing - exactly what 
Walter said, except they overtly blame the President explicitly. They all 
parrot the same thing - the first time in 31 years that there has not been a US 
Navy warship in the Med. These exact same words appear on the few right-wing 
blogs that I have searched. They all then go on to say what Walter did not - 
that Obama removed our ships to benefit Muslims! I didn't say it was logical, 
but it is wondrous how they forget how we got into these wars

  If you wish to believe that Walter just happened to come up with an innocent 
question that mirrors what currently pervades right-wing propaganda, that's 
fine with me. But I know better. Steve, if you want to know about the tooth 
fairy and Santa Claus, I'd be glad to tell you offline.

  Walter, keep that crap off this list.

  Ron Rogers


  On Sat, Feb 26, 2011 at 9:25 PM, Steve Weinstein  
wrote:

Whoa, Ron, I think that was a way over the top reaction to an innocent 
question.  All Walter wrote was essentially a question. And a perfectly 
innocuous question at that.



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Re: [Liveaboard] Question: where is the 6th Fleet?

[Sea Quell crew.]

Ron,

I don't need you and your superior knowledge of news to protect me from 
alternate viewpoints.

If you can't handle someone asking a question which may raise the hair 
on your neck, then find a list of like-minded people. This list is 
obviously too diverse and open-minded for you.

-Neal.

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Re: [Liveaboard] Question: where is the 6th Fleet?

[Ron Rogers]

"while other ships were able to leave." The 3 cruise liners chartered by the
Chinese government also had to remain in port owing to the storm. All 4
ships had a rough ride once they did leave port. You are either poorly
informed or biased.

The Chinese have 30,000 workers in Libya and it will take some time to get
them out. All Americans are out. The situation is deteriorating and it is
only prudent for the Chinese to provide air cover with a missile frigate
until all the trips that they have chartered safely get out of Libya.

The US Navy diverted a carrier battle group to surround the motorsailer
Quest East of Oman. The carrier battle group*s* are providing air cover to
ground forces in Afghanistan and Iraq. They are not dedicated to anti-piracy
patrol. We are at war you know. Even in peacetime, the location of Navy
ships is classified so no responsible government spokesman should answer as
to the location of Sixth Fleet assets.

Ron Rogers

On Sun, Feb 27, 2011 at 12:39 PM, Walter Knopf
wrote:

> Thank you, Ahmet.
>
>
>
> I was NOT trying to make a political statement, we have the best navy in
> the world, but I realize
>
> they can't be everywhere. The ferry evacuating Americans was stuck in
> Tripoli for several days
>
> because of stormy seas, apparently not a very seaworthy vessel, while other
> ships were able to leave.
>
> If you served in any navy you automatically associate Mediterranean and 6
> th Fleet, so I tried to
>
> find it on the "know it all" Google and was surprised to come up empty.
>
> So I thought I ask here if any boater had seen them, about forty ships are
> hard to hide, only
>
> to be unpleasantly surprised.
>
> I think they might be patrolling off the Somali coast, which is good, but
> China just pulled one of their
>
> newest frigate off the same patrol to send to Libya, probably the first
> time a Chinese war ship has entered
>
> this area.
>
>
>
> Walter
>
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Re: [Liveaboard] Question: where is the 6th Fleet?

[banders...@earthlink.net]

I would add:

5. After transmitting one's own viewpoint demand an end to the discussion. (The 
"my-way-or-the-highway"
maneuver).

Norm
S/V Bandersnatch
Lying Julington Creek FL
N30 07.68 W081 38.47


- Original Message - 
From: ahmet erkan 
To: liveaboard@liveaboardonline.com
Sent: 2/27/2011 11:51:38 AM 
Subject: Re: [Liveaboard] Question: where is the 6th Fleet?


Typical hit and run tactic for bullies :
 
1. Attack the person who entertains an opposing idea.
2. Push own opinions (decorated with biased examples) as the only sensible 
strategy. 
3. Push own conclusions.
4. Blame the victim and win support by issuing orders to keep political 
discussions off the list.
 
Once in a while as a break from boating related subjects, I would prefer to 
hear Walter's genuine 
opinions about World affairs, rather than see him bullied.
 
Fair winds
Ahmet
 
 
 


Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2011 22:07:19 -0500
From: rcroge...@gmail.com
To: liveaboard@liveaboardonline.com
Subject: Re: [Liveaboard] Question: where is the 6th Fleet?

Steve,

You have not received the emails from right-wingers that I have. You have not 
read Ollie North's column. They all say the the same thing - exactly what 
Walter said, except they overtly blame the President explicitly. They all 
parrot the same thing - the first time in 31 years that there has not been a US 
Navy warship in the Med. These exact same words appear on the few right-wing 
blogs that I have searched. They all then go on to say what Walter did not - 
that Obama removed our ships to benefit Muslims! I didn't say it was logical, 
but it is wondrous how they forget how we got into these wars

If you wish to believe that Walter just happened to come up with an innocent 
question that mirrors what currently pervades right-wing propaganda, that's 
fine with me. But I know better. Steve, if you want to know about the tooth 
fairy and Santa Claus, I'd be glad to tell you offline.

Walter, keep that crap off this list.

Ron Rogers


On Sat, Feb 26, 2011 at 9:25 PM, Steve Weinstein  wrote:

Whoa, Ron, I think that was a way over the top reaction to an innocent 
question.  All Walter wrote was essentially a question. And a perfectly 
innocuous question at that.



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Re: [Liveaboard] Question: where is the 6th Fleet?

[Ron Rogers]

I could care less were Walter to praise the President's actions or inaction.
I do not think that it is appropriate to take politics onto a list created
to discuss living aboard boats - not warships. So yes, I condemn Walter for
concealing a political diatribe inside an "innocent question." Since many
people are not news junkies, I can well imagine that you do not recognize
the repetition of political propaganda. I probably made an error in
countering Walter's "question" with facts because I should not have answered
his question. I should have just protested his posting something political.

Since neither of you can recognize propaganda when you see it (or maybe it
represents your viewpoint) I have pasted the origins of his "question"
below:

**

*HANNITY:* All right, I'll concur with you. All right, so then what's the
future for him? What is the future for North Africa? What is the future for
the Middle East? My guess is that we risk more extremism --

*NORTH:* Much more. There are very few options left to this administration
because decisions made by the Obama administration to take carriers offline
and ships offline. We have no ability to respond in any way militarily.

We have no carriers in the Mediterranean today for the first time in 31
years. You have no American carriers in the Mediterranean, no battle groups
and you have Iranian ships. Because this administration has made bad
decisions all the way along line. It's not a good formula, Sean. The good
news is at the end of the day, Muammar Qaddafi is a dead man.
Watch the last few minutes:

http://tinyurl.com/66zqunn

It would appear to me that Walter was spouting the party line. Feel free to
let me know what "biased examples" you are referring to. Facts are not
opinions, but don't let facts interfere with your polemics. I may have hit,
but I haven't run and I did not stoop to name-calling.

Ron Rogers

On Sun, Feb 27, 2011 at 11:51 AM, ahmet erkan  wrote:

>  Typical hit and run tactic for bullies :
>
> 1. Attack the person who entertains an opposing idea.
> 2. Push own opinions (decorated with biased examples) as the only sensible
> strategy.
> 3. Push own conclusions.
> 4. Blame the victim and win support by issuing orders to keep political
> discussions off the list.
>
> Once in a while as a break from boating related subjects, I would prefer to
> hear Walter's genuine
> opinions about World affairs, rather than see him bullied.
>
> Fair winds
> Ahmet
>
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Re: [Liveaboard] Question: where is the 6th Fleet?

[Walter Knopf]

Thank you, Ahmet.

 

I was NOT trying to make a political statement, we have the best navy in the
world, but I realize

they can't be everywhere. The ferry evacuating Americans was stuck in
Tripoli for several days

because of stormy seas, apparently not a very seaworthy vessel, while other
ships were able to leave.

If you served in any navy you automatically associate Mediterranean and 6th
Fleet, so I tried to

find it on the "know it all" Google and was surprised to come up empty.

So I thought I ask here if any boater had seen them, about forty ships are
hard to hide, only

to be unpleasantly surprised.

I think they might be patrolling off the Somali coast, which is good, but
China just pulled one of their

newest frigate off the same patrol to send to Libya, probably the first time
a Chinese war ship has entered

this area.

 

Walter

 

From: liveaboard-boun...@liveaboardonline.com
[mailto:liveaboard-boun...@liveaboardonline.com] On Behalf Of ahmet erkan
Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2011 12:51 PM
To: liveaboard@liveaboardonline.com
Subject: Re: [Liveaboard] Question: where is the 6th Fleet?

 

Typical hit and run tactic for bullies :



 

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Re: [Liveaboard] Question: where is the 6th Fleet?

[Craig Scott]

Very well said. 

-Original Message-
From: liveaboard-boun...@liveaboardonline.com 
[mailto:liveaboard-boun...@liveaboardonline.com] On Behalf Of ahmet erkan
Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2011 11:51
To: liveaboard@liveaboardonline.com
Subject: Re: [Liveaboard] Question: where is the 6th Fleet?

Typical hit and run tactic for bullies :
 
1. Attack the person who entertains an opposing idea.
2. Push own opinions (decorated with biased examples) as the only sensible 
strategy. 
3. Push own conclusions.
4. Blame the victim and win support by issuing orders to keep political 
discussions off the list.
 
Once in a while as a break from boating related subjects, I would prefer to 
hear Walter's genuine opinions about World affairs,
rather than see him bullied.
 
Fair winds
Ahmet
 
 
 



Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2011 22:07:19 -0500
From: rcroge...@gmail.com
To: liveaboard@liveaboardonline.com
Subject: Re: [Liveaboard] Question: where is the 6th Fleet?

Steve,

You have not received the emails from right-wingers that I have. You have not 
read Ollie North's column. They all say the the same
thing - exactly what Walter said, except they overtly blame the President 
explicitly. They all parrot the same thing - the first
time in 31 years that there has not been a US Navy warship in the Med. These 
exact same words appear on the few right-wing blogs
that I have searched. They all then go on to say what Walter did not - that 
Obama removed our ships to benefit Muslims! I didn't say
it was logical, but it is wondrous how they forget how we got into these wars

If you wish to believe that Walter just happened to come up with an innocent 
question that mirrors what currently pervades
right-wing propaganda, that's fine with me. But I know better. Steve, if you 
want to know about the tooth fairy and Santa Claus, I'd
be glad to tell you offline.

Walter, keep that crap off this list.

Ron Rogers


On Sat, Feb 26, 2011 at 9:25 PM, Steve Weinstein  wrote:


Whoa, Ron, I think that was a way over the top reaction to an innocent 
question.  All Walter wrote was essentially a
question. And a perfectly innocuous question at that.




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Re: [Liveaboard] Question: where is the 6th Fleet?

[ahmet erkan]

Typical hit and run tactic for bullies :
 
1. Attack the person who entertains an opposing idea.
2. Push own opinions (decorated with biased examples) as the only sensible 
strategy. 
3. Push own conclusions.
4. Blame the victim and win support by issuing orders to keep political 
discussions off the list.
 
Once in a while as a break from boating related subjects, I would prefer to 
hear Walter's genuine 
opinions about World affairs, rather than see him bullied.
 
Fair winds
Ahmet
 
 
 


Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2011 22:07:19 -0500
From: rcroge...@gmail.com
To: liveaboard@liveaboardonline.com
Subject: Re: [Liveaboard] Question: where is the 6th Fleet?

Steve,

You have not received the emails from right-wingers that I have. You have not 
read Ollie North's column. They all say the the same thing - exactly what 
Walter said, except they overtly blame the President explicitly. They all 
parrot the same thing - the first time in 31 years that there has not been a US 
Navy warship in the Med. These exact same words appear on the few right-wing 
blogs that I have searched. They all then go on to say what Walter did not - 
that Obama removed our ships to benefit Muslims! I didn't say it was logical, 
but it is wondrous how they forget how we got into these wars

If you wish to believe that Walter just happened to come up with an innocent 
question that mirrors what currently pervades right-wing propaganda, that's 
fine with me. But I know better. Steve, if you want to know about the tooth 
fairy and Santa Claus, I'd be glad to tell you offline.

Walter, keep that crap off this list.

Ron Rogers


On Sat, Feb 26, 2011 at 9:25 PM, Steve Weinstein  wrote:



Whoa, Ron, I think that was a way over the top reaction to an innocent 
question.  All Walter wrote was essentially a question. And a perfectly 
innocuous question at that.


___ Liveaboard mailing list 
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Re: [Liveaboard] Question: where is the 6th Fleet?

[Ron Rogers]

Steve,

You have not received the emails from right-wingers that I have. You have
not read Ollie North's column. They all say the the same thing - exactly
what Walter said, except they overtly blame the President explicitly. They
all parrot the same thing - the first time in 31 years that there has not
been a US Navy warship in the Med. These exact same words appear on the few
right-wing blogs that I have searched. They all then go on to say what
Walter did not - that Obama removed our ships to benefit Muslims! I didn't
say it was logical, but it is wondrous how they forget how we got into these
wars

If you wish to believe that Walter just happened to come up with an innocent
question that mirrors what currently pervades right-wing propaganda, that's
fine with me. But I know better. Steve, if you want to know about the tooth
fairy and Santa Claus, I'd be glad to tell you offline.

Walter, keep that crap off this list.

Ron Rogers

On Sat, Feb 26, 2011 at 9:25 PM, Steve Weinstein wrote:

>  Whoa, Ron, I think that was a way over the top reaction to an innocent
> question.  All Walter wrote was essentially a question. And a perfectly
> innocuous question at that.
>
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Re: [Liveaboard] Question: where is the 6th Fleet?

[Steve Weinstein]

Whoa, Ron, I think that was a way over the top reaction to an innocent 
question.  All Walter wrote was essentially a question. And a perfectly 
innocuous question at that. The only point he made was that China sent a 
warship, why didn't we. Since all the Americans who wanted to be evacuated were 
evacuated there was certainly no need for a warship. During this entire 
episode, the one thing our current administration was trying to do was keep 
this at a global level without attempting to engage Quaddafi on a personal 
level. The man is certifiably nuts (AQ slipping acid into the student's coffee 
to make them become insurgents? Give me a break!).

Within an hour of receiving notification that all Americans who wanted to leave 
had left either on the chartered flight or ferry, we froze all the Quadaffi 
financial assets/accounts including those of his family and top "politicians" 
in the regime. To have done so before our people were confirmed to be out of 
there might have put that nut-job over the edge even more and resulted in a lot 
of American deaths from retaliation.

Anyway, the point is Walter wasn't making any political (right wing or left 
wing) statement - just asking a normal question.


Steve Weinstein
S/V CAPTIVA
1997 Hunter 376, Hull #376
Sailing out of Oyster Bay, NY

All outgoing mail protected by VIPRE A/V


  - Original Message - 
  From: Ron Rogers 
  To: liveaboard@liveaboardonline.com 
  Cc: Walter Knopf 
  Sent: Saturday, February 26, 2011 8:37 PM
  Subject: Re: [Liveaboard] Question: where is the 6th Fleet?


  The Liveaboard List is not a political forum. Many right-wing commentators 
are attacking the administration because we have our warships supporting two 
wars and a pirate patrol. The Chinese chartered 3 cruise ships!

  Why would we send warships for a peaceful evacuation? You wanna fight 
somebody else?

  We chartered a ferry that holds 600. Of the 300 passengers who left Tripoli 
on that ferry, only 168 to 200 were Americans. The total number of Americans 
that were in Libya was 600 to start with. Some took flights to include one US 
chartered aircraft. I'm still trying to figure out why the Brits sent a 
destroyer unless it was to save money. She was on her way home to be scrapped.

  Take your phony facts and politics elsewhere.

  Ron Rogers


  On Sat, Feb 26, 2011 at 6:24 PM, Walter Knopf  
wrote:

I am curious, the 6th Fleet is responsible for the Mediterranean, but I
haven't heard if they are near Libya to help evacuate US citizens. No 
Google results, so I wonder if any boat spotted them somewhere else. China is 
sending war ships to help their nationals, shouldn't we do the same thing?


--


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Re: [Liveaboard] Question: where is the 6th Fleet?

[Ron Rogers]

The Liveaboard List is not a political forum. Many right-wing commentators
are attacking the administration because we have our warships supporting two
wars and a pirate patrol. The Chinese chartered 3 cruise ships!

Why would we send warships for a peaceful evacuation? You wanna fight
somebody else?

We chartered a ferry that holds 600. Of the 300 passengers who left Tripoli
on that ferry, only 168 to 200 were Americans. The total number of Americans
that were in Libya was 600 to start with. Some took flights to include one
US chartered aircraft. I'm still trying to figure out why the Brits sent a
destroyer unless it was to save money. She was on her way home to be
scrapped.

Take your phony facts and politics elsewhere.

Ron Rogers

On Sat, Feb 26, 2011 at 6:24 PM, Walter Knopf wrote:

> I am curious, the 6th Fleet is responsible for the Mediterranean, but I
> haven't heard if they are near Libya to help evacuate US citizens. No
> Google results, so I wonder if any boat spotted them somewhere else. China
> is sending war ships to help their nationals, shouldn't we do the same
> thing?
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