[LUTE] Re: LUTE Duets
Good morning, Alain. Thank you for this. I hope it was fun to put together! Have a good afternoon, Chris. On Mon, Sep 28, 2020 at 1:06 AM Alain Veylit <[1]al...@musickshandmade.com> wrote: People who like lute duets might interested in a project I put together, see [2]http://fandango.musickshandmade.com/projects/preview/26 I did not quite make it to 100 but there are still some pieces to be added after this list goes silent. Good night all, Alain To get on or off this list see list information at [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:al...@musickshandmade.com 2. http://fandango.musickshandmade.com/projects/preview/26 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: LUTE Duets
People who like lute duets might interested in a project I put together, see http://fandango.musickshandmade.com/projects/preview/26 I did not quite make it to 100 but there are still some pieces to be added after this list goes silent. Good night all, Alain To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lute in Nashville
Here is a note from LSA Rental Traffic Manager James Louder on our rental program: Waiting is difficult when you really want to play the lute! The LSA Lute Rental Program was already in the throes of some badly needed reorganization when the pandemic came along. Who could have guessed that the lockdown would be followed by a 10-fold increase rental requests? And who could have guessed that the newest fantasy drama series, Witchers, would feature a character that plays the lute! To be perfectly honest, the wave of new applications blindsided us and Lute Rental Program got seriously snowed-under. As I said, we have reorganized the program, a task that is ongoing. Now, with our Administrator being more free to concentrate on renters' applications, and our new Traffic Manager keeping the lutes on the move, we're getting things back on track. They are working overtime to process as many rentals as they can. If you are still waiting, know that we have not abandoned you! If you have any immediate questions or concerns about your rental application, please don't hesitate to contact Fiona Thistle Rental Manager [1]lsaluteren...@gmail.com James Louder Rental Traffic Manager [2]lsatrafficmana...@gmail.com Cathy Liddell LSA President lutesocietyamericapresident#gmail.com Would any kind soul within the orbit of Nashville TN have a renaissance lute they'd be willing to loan or rent to a student? There's a really motivated newcomer who's been learning on a capoed guitar who's just itching to get her hands on an actual lute. She's been waiting on the LSA rental program for months already and it looks like the backlog won't clear anytime soon. Message me privately if you can help out. Chris -- To get on or off this list see list information at [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Nancy Carlin Administrator THE LUTE SOCIETY OF AMERICA [4]http://LuteSocietyofAmerica.org PO Box 6499 Concord, CA 94524 USA 925 / 686-5800 [5]www.groundsanddivisions.info [6]www.nancycarlinassociates.com -- References 1. mailto:lsaluteren...@gmail.com 2. mailto:lsatrafficmana...@gmail.com 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 4. http://LuteSocietyofAmerica.org/ 5. http://www.groundsanddivisions.info/ 6. http://www.nancycarlinassociates.com/
[LUTE] Re: Lute in Nashville
Thanks Nancy. She's been on the LSA waiting list for months and there's no ETA yet. The student is a total beginner and that fire will only burn so long unless she gets a real instrument pronto. Chris On Monday, July 27, 2020, 1:18 PM, Nancy Carlin wrote: The LSA Lute Rental program has renaissance lutes available. More info on the website or email the James Louder LSA Rental Traffic Manager [1]lsatrafficmana...@gmail.com Nancy >Would any kind soul within the orbit of Nashville TN have a >renaissance lute they'd be willing to loan or rent to a student? >There's a really motivated newcomer who's been learning on a >capoed guitar who's just itching to get her hands on an actual lute. >She's been waiting on the LSA rental program for months already and it >looks like the backlog won't clear anytime soon. Message me privately >if you can help out. > >Chris >-- > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Nancy Carlin Administrator THE LUTE SOCIETY OF AMERICA [3]http://LuteSocietyofAmerica.org PO Box 6499 Concord, CA 94524 USA 925 / 686-5800 www.groundsanddivisions.info www.nancycarlinassociates.com -- References 1. mailto:lsatrafficmana...@gmail.com 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 3. http://LuteSocietyofAmerica.org/
[LUTE] Re: Lute in Nashville
The LSA Lute Rental program has renaissance lutes available. More info on the website or email the James Louder LSA Rental Traffic Manager lsatrafficmana...@gmail.com Nancy Would any kind soul within the orbit of Nashville TN have a renaissance lute they'd be willing to loan or rent to a student? There's a really motivated newcomer who's been learning on a capoed guitar who's just itching to get her hands on an actual lute. She's been waiting on the LSA rental program for months already and it looks like the backlog won't clear anytime soon. Message me privately if you can help out. Chris -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Nancy Carlin Administrator THE LUTE SOCIETY OF AMERICA http://LuteSocietyofAmerica.org PO Box 6499 Concord, CA 94524 USA 925 / 686-5800 www.groundsanddivisions.info www.nancycarlinassociates.com
[LUTE] Re: Lute strap
And Pat strongly advocated playing standing up,
with the lute close to one's chin.
He also emphatically recommended looping the strap
around a couple of pegs on the treble side of the pegbox:
http://polyhymnion.org/swv/images/strap.jpg
to prevent one's lute from facing the ceiling.
RT
On 5/24/2020 3:04 PM, Leonard Williams wrote:
Disclaimer--I am a largely self-taught (with tips from this list!),
falteringly intermediate player. I use strap, footstool and shelf
liner. I enjoy playing, while mindfully trying to approximate
recognized proper technique.
It seems that what has taken me the longest time to get right (or
nearly so) is the balance of comfort, security, and accessibility for
right and left hands. As we are all built to different proportions and
agility, my conclusion is that there is no single right physical
approach to the lute; one needs simply to pay attention to what's
happening between the body and the instrument. A good teacher who can
"read" your body language while playing would be very helpful (Pat
O'Brien could do this kind of thing).
(here ends this 2 cents worth)
Regards,
Leonard Williams
-Original Message-
From: Jurgen Frenz
To: Leonard Williams
Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Sun, May 24, 2020 8:06 am
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lute strap
I find the strap discussion quite interesting especially what Leonhard
Williams just said - it reminds me (and everybody who likes to think
about his/her playing) that the simple position we sit down and hold
the instrument has quite an impact on our playing. As often, there is
no "rule" except that everybody has to figure out how it's real
comfortable to play. I strongly believe that the instrument has to sit
there without any additional effort to hold it, one needs to figure out
how that exactly can be achieved.
Good luck!
âââââââ Original Message âââââââ
On Saturday, May 23, 2020 11:45 PM, Leonard Williams
<[1]arc...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote:
> Yes--the shelf liner material works very nicely to de-grease the
piggy!
> I actually use a footstool on the right to get the lute up a little
> higher (thigh under the widest point). Can't say it's improved my
> playing, however.
> Leonard Williams
> -Original Message-
> From: John Mardinly [2]john.mardi...@asu.edu
> To: howard posner [3]howardpos...@ca.rr.com; Lute List
> [4]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
> Sent: Sat, May 23, 2020 2:47 pm
> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lute strap
> I've been playing without a strap since 1970. However, I must admit
> that holding the lute is a bit like holding a greased pig. What works
> for me now is rubberized shelf liner:
>
[1][5]https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01LWAPOO1/ref=sspa_dk_detail_4?psc=1
d_r
>
d_i=B01LWAPOO1_rd_w=kPNRm_rd_p=48d372c1-f7e1-4b8b-9d02-4bd86f5158
>
c5_rd_wg=FAgbm_rd_r=6BF0CZFPTPEJ3V0B4C0J_rd_r=b4cc3dc9-fcdd-4e
>
91-871f-3a45b2ca6f75=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUEyQlpFOVExWUNKOFBTJ
>
mVuY3J5cHRlZElkPUEwMzAxNTgzMVdHTVVXMjg5QjlLUiZlbmNyeXB0ZWRBZElkPUEwNzkz
>
MDU1NFFLQzJMQzQzRVIzJndpZGdldE5hbWU9c3BfZGV0YWlsJmFjdGlvbj1jbGlja1JlZGl
> yZWN0JmRvTm90TG9nQ2xpY2s9dHJ1ZQ==
> Cut out a 15'x15' piece for each thigh, and use a footstool for the
> left leg like guitarists use. The lute is then fairly stable. Makes a
> guitar a bit more stable also. $5 buys enough to last a lifetime.
> A. John Mardinly, Ph.D., P.E.
> Classical Guitarist/Lutenist
>
> > On May 22, 2020, at 4:16 PM, howard posner
>
> <[2][6]howardpos...@ca.rr.com> wrote:
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > > On May 22, 2020, at 7:19 AM, Christopher Stetson
>
> <[3][7]christophertstet...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > >
>
> > > Hi, all. I've been playing without a strap since 1974. It is
>
> possible.
>
> >
>
> > Arthur: Ah. Look, the statue. How do get the cup bit to stay where
it
>
> is, unsupported?
>
> >
>
> > Wise Old Bird: It stays there because it's artistically right.
>
> >
>
> > Arthur: What?
>
> >
>
> > WOB: The Law of Gravity isn't as indiscriminate as people often
>
> think. You learn things like that when you're a bird.
>
> >
>
> > --Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy (original radio script) Fit the
>
> Tenth
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > To get on or off this list see list information at
[LUTE] Re: Lute strap from the LUTEDUO links
[1]We could not find the links in the message I sentthey should be at the bottom of the message So hopefully this information can be helpful, Anton & Anna [2]LESSON 1, LUTE STRAP www.luteduo.com [youtube.png] LESSON 1, LUTE STRAP www.luteduo.com This video shows the very basic part of lute positioning technique - the strap, this is a very efficient way to ... [3]Some more lute tricks Luteduo lesson - YouTube [youtube.png] Luteduo lesson - YouTube Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content and share it all with friends, family and the world... -- References Visible links: 1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C03fsBh5IUg 2. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C03fsBh5IUg 3. https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Luteduo+lesson Hidden links: 5. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C03fsBh5IUg 6. https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Luteduo+lesson To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lute strap from the LUTEDUO
[1]Hope this might be helpful:) Anna & Anton [2]LESSON 1, LUTE STRAP www.luteduo.com [youtube.png] LESSON 1, LUTE STRAP www.luteduo.com This video shows the very basic part of lute positioning technique - the strap, this is a very efficient way to ... [3]Luteduo lesson - YouTube [youtube.png] Luteduo lesson - YouTube Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content and share it all with friends, family and the world... On Sunday, May 24, 2020, 9:06:58 PM GMT+2, Leonard Williams wrote: Disclaimer--I am a largely self-taught (with tips from this list!), falteringly intermediate player. I use strap, footstool and shelf liner. I enjoy playing, while mindfully trying to approximate recognized proper technique. It seems that what has taken me the longest time to get right (or nearly so) is the balance of comfort, security, and accessibility for right and left hands. As we are all built to different proportions and agility, my conclusion is that there is no single right physical approach to the lute; one needs simply to pay attention to what's happening between the body and the instrument. A good teacher who can "read" your body language while playing would be very helpful (Pat O'Brien could do this kind of thing). (here ends this 2 cents worth) Regards, Leonard Williams -Original Message- From: Jurgen Frenz <[4]eye-and-ear-cont...@protonmail.com> To: Leonard Williams <[5]arc...@verizon.net> Cc: [6]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu <[7]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> Sent: Sun, May 24, 2020 8:06 am Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lute strap I find the strap discussion quite interesting especially what Leonhard Williams just said - it reminds me (and everybody who likes to think about his/her playing) that the simple position we sit down and hold the instrument has quite an impact on our playing. As often, there is no "rule" except that everybody has to figure out how it's real comfortable to play. I strongly believe that the instrument has to sit there without any additional effort to hold it, one needs to figure out how that exactly can be achieved. Good luck! âââââââ Original Message âââââââ On Saturday, May 23, 2020 11:45 PM, Leonard Williams <[1][8]arc...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote: > Yes--the shelf liner material works very nicely to de-grease the piggy! > I actually use a footstool on the right to get the lute up a little > higher (thigh under the widest point). Can't say it's improved my > playing, however. > Leonard Williams > -Original Message- > From: John Mardinly [2][9]john.mardi...@asu.edu > To: howard posner [3][10]howardpos...@ca.rr.com; Lute List > [4][11]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > Sent: Sat, May 23, 2020 2:47 pm > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lute strap > I've been playing without a strap since 1970. However, I must admit > that holding the lute is a bit like holding a greased pig. What works > for me now is rubberized shelf liner: > [1][5][12]https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01LWAPOO1/ref=sspa_dk_detail_4?psc =1 d_r > d_i=B01LWAPOO1_rd_w=kPNRm_rd_p=48d372c1-f7e1-4b8b-9d02-4bd86f5158 > c5_rd_wg=FAgbm_rd_r=6BF0CZFPTPEJ3V0B4C0J_rd_r=b4cc3dc9-fcdd-4e > 91-871f-3a45b2ca6f75=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUEyQlpFOVExWUNKOFBTJ > mVuY3J5cHRlZElkPUEwMzAxNTgzMVdHTVVXMjg5QjlLUiZlbmNyeXB0ZWRBZElkPUEwNzkz > MDU1NFFLQzJMQzQzRVIzJndpZGdldE5hbWU9c3BfZGV0YWlsJmFjdGlvbj1jbGlja1JlZGl > yZWN0JmRvTm90TG9nQ2xpY2s9dHJ1ZQ== > Cut out a 15'x15' piece for each thigh, and use a footstool for the > left leg like guitarists use. The lute is then fairly stable. Makes a > guitar a bit more stable also. $5 buys enough to last a lifetime. > A. John Mardinly, Ph.D., P.E. > Classical Guitarist/Lutenist > > > On May 22, 2020, at 4:16 PM, howard posner > > <[2][6][13]howardpos...@ca.rr.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > On May 22, 2020, at 7:19 AM, Christopher Stetson > > <[3][7][14]christophertstet...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi, all. I've been playing without a strap since 1974. It is > > possible. > > > > > > Arthur: Ah. Look, the statue. How do get the cup bit to stay where it > > is, unsupported? >
[LUTE] Re: Lute strap
Disclaimer--I am a largely self-taught (with tips from this list!), falteringly intermediate player. I use strap, footstool and shelf liner. I enjoy playing, while mindfully trying to approximate recognized proper technique. It seems that what has taken me the longest time to get right (or nearly so) is the balance of comfort, security, and accessibility for right and left hands. As we are all built to different proportions and agility, my conclusion is that there is no single right physical approach to the lute; one needs simply to pay attention to what's happening between the body and the instrument. A good teacher who can "read" your body language while playing would be very helpful (Pat O'Brien could do this kind of thing). (here ends this 2 cents worth) Regards, Leonard Williams -Original Message- From: Jurgen Frenz To: Leonard Williams Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sun, May 24, 2020 8:06 am Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lute strap I find the strap discussion quite interesting especially what Leonhard Williams just said - it reminds me (and everybody who likes to think about his/her playing) that the simple position we sit down and hold the instrument has quite an impact on our playing. As often, there is no "rule" except that everybody has to figure out how it's real comfortable to play. I strongly believe that the instrument has to sit there without any additional effort to hold it, one needs to figure out how that exactly can be achieved. Good luck! âââââââ Original Message âââââââ On Saturday, May 23, 2020 11:45 PM, Leonard Williams <[1]arc...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote: > Yes--the shelf liner material works very nicely to de-grease the piggy! > I actually use a footstool on the right to get the lute up a little > higher (thigh under the widest point). Can't say it's improved my > playing, however. > Leonard Williams > -Original Message- > From: John Mardinly [2]john.mardi...@asu.edu > To: howard posner [3]howardpos...@ca.rr.com; Lute List > [4]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > Sent: Sat, May 23, 2020 2:47 pm > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lute strap > I've been playing without a strap since 1970. However, I must admit > that holding the lute is a bit like holding a greased pig. What works > for me now is rubberized shelf liner: > [1][5]https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01LWAPOO1/ref=sspa_dk_detail_4?psc=1 d_r > d_i=B01LWAPOO1_rd_w=kPNRm_rd_p=48d372c1-f7e1-4b8b-9d02-4bd86f5158 > c5_rd_wg=FAgbm_rd_r=6BF0CZFPTPEJ3V0B4C0J_rd_r=b4cc3dc9-fcdd-4e > 91-871f-3a45b2ca6f75=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUEyQlpFOVExWUNKOFBTJ > mVuY3J5cHRlZElkPUEwMzAxNTgzMVdHTVVXMjg5QjlLUiZlbmNyeXB0ZWRBZElkPUEwNzkz > MDU1NFFLQzJMQzQzRVIzJndpZGdldE5hbWU9c3BfZGV0YWlsJmFjdGlvbj1jbGlja1JlZGl > yZWN0JmRvTm90TG9nQ2xpY2s9dHJ1ZQ== > Cut out a 15'x15' piece for each thigh, and use a footstool for the > left leg like guitarists use. The lute is then fairly stable. Makes a > guitar a bit more stable also. $5 buys enough to last a lifetime. > A. John Mardinly, Ph.D., P.E. > Classical Guitarist/Lutenist > > > On May 22, 2020, at 4:16 PM, howard posner > > <[2][6]howardpos...@ca.rr.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > On May 22, 2020, at 7:19 AM, Christopher Stetson > > <[3][7]christophertstet...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi, all. I've been playing without a strap since 1974. It is > > possible. > > > > > > Arthur: Ah. Look, the statue. How do get the cup bit to stay where it > > is, unsupported? > > > > > > Wise Old Bird: It stays there because it's artistically right. > > > > > > Arthur: What? > > > > > > WOB: The Law of Gravity isn't as indiscriminate as people often > > think. You learn things like that when you're a bird. > > > > > > --Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy (original radio script) Fit the > > Tenth > > > > > > > > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > > > > > [4][8]https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.cs.dartmo uth > .edu_-7Ewbc_lute-2Dadmin_index.html=DwIFaQ=l45AxH-kUV29SRQusp9vYR0n > 1GycN4_2jInuKy6zbqQ=VLPJ8OE-c_C6joGeE1ftlvxMmQPq9N6mpKZONBRt90E=T0D > BLPWi-JsEl3u9ihtW2Cu9gVo3NkkKh4as-2CmlkM=7riCOmG8O7h8gdO6D70sBjwmU8mI > 2u_3cw-r5nvTuEw= > > ---
[LUTE] Re: Lute strap
I find the strap discussion quite interesting especially what Leonhard Williams just said - it reminds me (and everybody who likes to think about his/her playing) that the simple position we sit down and hold the instrument has quite an impact on our playing. As often, there is no "rule" except that everybody has to figure out how it's real comfortable to play. I strongly believe that the instrument has to sit there without any additional effort to hold it, one needs to figure out how that exactly can be achieved. Good luck! ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐ On Saturday, May 23, 2020 11:45 PM, Leonard Williams wrote: > Yes--the shelf liner material works very nicely to de-grease the piggy! > I actually use a footstool on the right to get the lute up a little > higher (thigh under the widest point). Can't say it's improved my > playing, however. > Leonard Williams > -Original Message- > From: John Mardinly john.mardi...@asu.edu > To: howard posner howardpos...@ca.rr.com; Lute List > lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > Sent: Sat, May 23, 2020 2:47 pm > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lute strap > I've been playing without a strap since 1970. However, I must admit > that holding the lute is a bit like holding a greased pig. What works > for me now is rubberized shelf liner: > [1]https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01LWAPOO1/ref=sspa_dk_detail_4?psc=1_r > d_i=B01LWAPOO1_rd_w=kPNRm_rd_p=48d372c1-f7e1-4b8b-9d02-4bd86f5158 > c5_rd_wg=FAgbm_rd_r=6BF0CZFPTPEJ3V0B4C0J_rd_r=b4cc3dc9-fcdd-4e > 91-871f-3a45b2ca6f75=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUEyQlpFOVExWUNKOFBTJ > mVuY3J5cHRlZElkPUEwMzAxNTgzMVdHTVVXMjg5QjlLUiZlbmNyeXB0ZWRBZElkPUEwNzkz > MDU1NFFLQzJMQzQzRVIzJndpZGdldE5hbWU9c3BfZGV0YWlsJmFjdGlvbj1jbGlja1JlZGl > yZWN0JmRvTm90TG9nQ2xpY2s9dHJ1ZQ== > Cut out a 15'x15' piece for each thigh, and use a footstool for the > left leg like guitarists use. The lute is then fairly stable. Makes a > guitar a bit more stable also. $5 buys enough to last a lifetime. > A. John Mardinly, Ph.D., P.E. > Classical Guitarist/Lutenist > > > On May 22, 2020, at 4:16 PM, howard posner > > <[2]howardpos...@ca.rr.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > On May 22, 2020, at 7:19 AM, Christopher Stetson > > <[3]christophertstet...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi, all. I've been playing without a strap since 1974. It is > > possible. > > > > > > Arthur: Ah. Look, the statue. How do get the cup bit to stay where it > > is, unsupported? > > > > > > Wise Old Bird: It stays there because it's artistically right. > > > > > > Arthur: What? > > > > > > WOB: The Law of Gravity isn't as indiscriminate as people often > > think. You learn things like that when you're a bird. > > > > > > --Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy (original radio script) Fit the > > Tenth > > > > > > > > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > > > > > [4]https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.cs.dartmouth > .edu_-7Ewbc_lute-2Dadmin_index.html=DwIFaQ=l45AxH-kUV29SRQusp9vYR0n > 1GycN4_2jInuKy6zbqQ=VLPJ8OE-c_C6joGeE1ftlvxMmQPq9N6mpKZONBRt90E=T0D > BLPWi-JsEl3u9ihtW2Cu9gVo3NkkKh4as-2CmlkM=7riCOmG8O7h8gdO6D70sBjwmU8mI > 2u_3cw-r5nvTuEw= > > --- > > References > > 1. > https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01LWAPOO1/ref=sspa_dk_detail_4?psc=1_rd_i=B01LWAPOO1_rd_w=kPNRm_rd_p=48d372c1-f7e1-4b8b-9d02-4bd86f5158c5_rd_wg=FAgbm_rd_r=6BF0CZFPTPEJ3V0B4C0J_rd_r=b4cc3dc9-fcdd-4e91-871f-3a45b2ca6f75=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUEyQlpFOVExWUNKOFBTJmVuY3J5cHRlZElkPUEwMzAxNTgzMVdHTVVXMjg5QjlLUiZlbmNyeXB0ZWRBZElkPUEwNzkzMDU1NFFLQzJMQzQzRVIzJndpZGdldE5hbWU9c3BfZGV0YWlsJmFjdGlvbj1jbGlja1JlZGlyZWN0JmRvTm90TG9nQ2xpY2s9dHJ1ZQ== > 2. mailto:howardpos...@ca.rr.com > 3. mailto:christophertstet...@gmail.com > 4. > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.cs.dartmouth.edu_-7Ewbc_lute-2Dadmin_index.html=DwIFaQ=l45AxH-kUV29SRQusp9vYR0n1GycN4_2jInuKy6zbqQ=VLPJ8OE-c_C6joGeE1ftlvxMmQPq9N6mpKZONBRt90E=T0DBLPWi-JsEl3u9ihtW2Cu9gVo3NkkKh4as-2CmlkM=7riCOmG8O7h8gdO6D70sBjwmU8mI2u_3cw-r5nvTuEw=
[LUTE] Re: Lute strap
Yes--the shelf liner material works very nicely to de-grease the piggy! I actually use a footstool on the right to get the lute up a little higher (thigh under the widest point). Can't say it's improved my playing, however. Leonard Williams -Original Message- From: John Mardinly To: howard posner ; Lute List Sent: Sat, May 23, 2020 2:47 pm Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lute strap I've been playing without a strap since 1970. However, I must admit that holding the lute is a bit like holding a greased pig. What works for me now is rubberized shelf liner: [1]https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01LWAPOO1/ref=sspa_dk_detail_4?psc=1_r d_i=B01LWAPOO1_rd_w=kPNRm_rd_p=48d372c1-f7e1-4b8b-9d02-4bd86f5158 c5_rd_wg=FAgbm_rd_r=6BF0CZFPTPEJ3V0B4C0J_rd_r=b4cc3dc9-fcdd-4e 91-871f-3a45b2ca6f75=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUEyQlpFOVExWUNKOFBTJ mVuY3J5cHRlZElkPUEwMzAxNTgzMVdHTVVXMjg5QjlLUiZlbmNyeXB0ZWRBZElkPUEwNzkz MDU1NFFLQzJMQzQzRVIzJndpZGdldE5hbWU9c3BfZGV0YWlsJmFjdGlvbj1jbGlja1JlZGl yZWN0JmRvTm90TG9nQ2xpY2s9dHJ1ZQ== Cut out a 15'x15' piece for each thigh, and use a footstool for the left leg like guitarists use. The lute is then fairly stable. Makes a guitar a bit more stable also. $5 buys enough to last a lifetime. A. John Mardinly, Ph.D., P.E. Classical Guitarist/Lutenist > On May 22, 2020, at 4:16 PM, howard posner <[2]howardpos...@ca.rr.com> wrote: > > >> On May 22, 2020, at 7:19 AM, Christopher Stetson <[3]christophertstet...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> Hi, all. I've been playing without a strap since 1974. It is possible. > > Arthur: Ah. Look, the statue. How do get the cup bit to stay where it is, unsupported? > > Wise Old Bird: It stays there because it's artistically right. > > Arthur: What? > > WOB: The Law of Gravity isn't as indiscriminate as people often think. You learn things like that when you're a bird. > > --Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy (original radio script) Fit the Tenth > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > [4]https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.cs.dartmouth .edu_-7Ewbc_lute-2Dadmin_index.html=DwIFaQ=l45AxH-kUV29SRQusp9vYR0n 1GycN4_2jInuKy6zbqQ=VLPJ8OE-c_C6joGeE1ftlvxMmQPq9N6mpKZONBRt90E=T0D BLPWi-JsEl3u9ihtW2Cu9gVo3NkkKh4as-2CmlkM=7riCOmG8O7h8gdO6D70sBjwmU8mI 2u_3cw-r5nvTuEw= -- References 1. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01LWAPOO1/ref=sspa_dk_detail_4?psc=1_rd_i=B01LWAPOO1_rd_w=kPNRm_rd_p=48d372c1-f7e1-4b8b-9d02-4bd86f5158c5_rd_wg=FAgbm_rd_r=6BF0CZFPTPEJ3V0B4C0J_rd_r=b4cc3dc9-fcdd-4e91-871f-3a45b2ca6f75=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUEyQlpFOVExWUNKOFBTJmVuY3J5cHRlZElkPUEwMzAxNTgzMVdHTVVXMjg5QjlLUiZlbmNyeXB0ZWRBZElkPUEwNzkzMDU1NFFLQzJMQzQzRVIzJndpZGdldE5hbWU9c3BfZGV0YWlsJmFjdGlvbj1jbGlja1JlZGlyZWN0JmRvTm90TG9nQ2xpY2s9dHJ1ZQ== 2. mailto:howardpos...@ca.rr.com 3. mailto:christophertstet...@gmail.com 4. https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.cs.dartmouth.edu_-7Ewbc_lute-2Dadmin_index.html=DwIFaQ=l45AxH-kUV29SRQusp9vYR0n1GycN4_2jInuKy6zbqQ=VLPJ8OE-c_C6joGeE1ftlvxMmQPq9N6mpKZONBRt90E=T0DBLPWi-JsEl3u9ihtW2Cu9gVo3NkkKh4as-2CmlkM=7riCOmG8O7h8gdO6D70sBjwmU8mI2u_3cw-r5nvTuEw=
[LUTE] Re: Lute strap
I’ve been playing without a strap since 1970. However, I must admit that holding the lute is a bit like holding a greased pig. What works for me now is rubberized shelf liner: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01LWAPOO1/ref=sspa_dk_detail_4?psc=1_rd_i=B01LWAPOO1_rd_w=kPNRm_rd_p=48d372c1-f7e1-4b8b-9d02-4bd86f5158c5_rd_wg=FAgbm_rd_r=6BF0CZFPTPEJ3V0B4C0J_rd_r=b4cc3dc9-fcdd-4e91-871f-3a45b2ca6f75=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUEyQlpFOVExWUNKOFBTJmVuY3J5cHRlZElkPUEwMzAxNTgzMVdHTVVXMjg5QjlLUiZlbmNyeXB0ZWRBZElkPUEwNzkzMDU1NFFLQzJMQzQzRVIzJndpZGdldE5hbWU9c3BfZGV0YWlsJmFjdGlvbj1jbGlja1JlZGlyZWN0JmRvTm90TG9nQ2xpY2s9dHJ1ZQ== Cut out a 15’x15’ piece for each thigh, and use a footstool for the left leg like guitarists use. The lute is then fairly stable. Makes a guitar a bit more stable also. $5 buys enough to last a lifetime. A. John Mardinly, Ph.D., P.E. Classical Guitarist/Lutenist > On May 22, 2020, at 4:16 PM, howard posner wrote: > > >> On May 22, 2020, at 7:19 AM, Christopher Stetson >> wrote: >> >> Hi, all. I've been playing without a strap since 1974. It is possible. > > Arthur: Ah. Look, the statue. How do get the cup bit to stay where it is, > unsupported? > > Wise Old Bird: It stays there because it’s artistically right. > > Arthur: What? > > WOB: The Law of Gravity isn’t as indiscriminate as people often think. You > learn things like that when you’re a bird. > > --Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy (original radio script) Fit the Tenth > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.cs.dartmouth.edu_-7Ewbc_lute-2Dadmin_index.html=DwIFaQ=l45AxH-kUV29SRQusp9vYR0n1GycN4_2jInuKy6zbqQ=VLPJ8OE-c_C6joGeE1ftlvxMmQPq9N6mpKZONBRt90E=T0DBLPWi-JsEl3u9ihtW2Cu9gVo3NkkKh4as-2CmlkM=7riCOmG8O7h8gdO6D70sBjwmU8mI2u_3cw-r5nvTuEw= >
[LUTE] Re: Lute strap
> On May 22, 2020, at 7:19 AM, Christopher Stetson > wrote: > > Hi, all. I've been playing without a strap since 1974. It is possible. Arthur: Ah. Look, the statue. How do get the cup bit to stay where it is, unsupported? Wise Old Bird: It stays there because it’s artistically right. Arthur: What? WOB: The Law of Gravity isn’t as indiscriminate as people often think. You learn things like that when you’re a bird. --Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy (original radio script) Fit the Tenth To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lute strap
Am Freitag, 22. Mai 2020 20:35 CEST, "G. C." schrieb: > I am surprized, that noone has yet mentioned the type of strap that > you sat on. It seems like a very effective solution. I think this is maybe because there is no (historical) evidence for suh straps. IIRC they are a modern invention. I first saw them with Paul O'Dette and Hopkinson Smith. Cheers, RalfD > >And can anybody remind me of the name of that modern X-strap at the >back, which seems like the optimal solution? >G. > >-- > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Ralf Mattes Hochschule für Musik Freiburg Projektleitung HISinOne Schwarzwaldstr. 141, D-79102 Freiburg http://www.mh-freiburg.de
[LUTE] Re: Lute strap
I am surprized, that noone has yet mentioned the type of strap that you sat on. It seems like a very effective solution. And can anybody remind me of the name of that modern X-strap at the back, which seems like the optimal solution? G. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lute strap
Oops forgot to paste the new url
https://lute-images.myjetbrains.com/youtrack/issues/LI?q=%23%7BLute%20strap%20in%20use%7D%20or%20%23%7BUnused%20lute%20strap%7D%20or%20%23%7BWith%20lute%20on%20strap%7D%20order%20by:%20date%20
The query is as follows:
#{Lutestrapinuse}or#{Unusedlutestrap}or#{Withluteonstrap}orderby:date
- Luke
On 22-May-2020 17:41, Luke Emmet wrote:
Here is the same list, ordered by date. The first ones shown seems to
be around 1615
- Luke
On 22-May-2020 17:39, Luke Emmet wrote:
Hi Tristan and all
You can find over 100 items in the The Lute Society's lute
iconography database that show a strap or a strap in use:
https://lute-images.myjetbrains.com/youtrack/issues/LI?q=%23%7BLute%20strap%20in%20use%7D%20or%20%23%7BUnused%20lute%20strap%7D%20or%20%23%7BWith%20lute%20on%20strap%7D%20
You can filter by date if you wish or just scan down to see them all.
Best wishes
- Luke
On 22-May-2020 12:18, Tristan von Neumann wrote:
I have been looking at Renaissance paintings or those around 1600, as I
wanted to pick the right ornaments for the strap.
Any lute straps in Renaissance paintings?
I haven't been looking through the whole database after I found nothing
in a dozen paintings, so I stopped to ask here...
That's what the list is for, right? :)
On 22.05.20 13:43, Joachim Lüdtke wrote:
Not to forget the picture of two guy playing in Castaldi's Capricci
a due stromenti … :)
-Original-Nachricht-
Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Lute strap
Datum: 2020-05-22T13:26:04+0200
Von: "Ralf Mattes"
An: "Tristan von Neumann"
Am Freitag, 22. Mai 2020 12:24 CEST, Tristan von Neumann
schrieb:
I am going to make myself a nice lute strap.
So I have been digging through paintings...
Weirdly, no one ever seems to use any form of strap...
Look closer/search better. Just two:
- https://www.vanedwards.co.uk/spencer/html/spencer4.htm, last
picture on page.
- the chitarrone player from the medici band as depicted on
Torelli's Theorbo method
(or here
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/ce/b0/1c/ceb01c35498e2df02fd664caa582f1e7.jpg)
I think you'll find more at Watteau et al.
Cheers, RalfD
How did they manage to play?
Or did the painters not bother painting them?
To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
--
__
Orlando Lutes
http://www.orlando-lutes.com
[LUTE] Re: Lute strap
Here is the same list, ordered by date. The first ones shown seems to be around 1615 - Luke On 22-May-2020 17:39, Luke Emmet wrote: Hi Tristan and all You can find over 100 items in the The Lute Society's lute iconography database that show a strap or a strap in use: https://lute-images.myjetbrains.com/youtrack/issues/LI?q=%23%7BLute%20strap%20in%20use%7D%20or%20%23%7BUnused%20lute%20strap%7D%20or%20%23%7BWith%20lute%20on%20strap%7D%20 You can filter by date if you wish or just scan down to see them all. Best wishes - Luke On 22-May-2020 12:18, Tristan von Neumann wrote: I have been looking at Renaissance paintings or those around 1600, as I wanted to pick the right ornaments for the strap. Any lute straps in Renaissance paintings? I haven't been looking through the whole database after I found nothing in a dozen paintings, so I stopped to ask here... That's what the list is for, right? :) On 22.05.20 13:43, Joachim Lüdtke wrote: Not to forget the picture of two guy playing in Castaldi's Capricci a due stromenti … :) -Original-Nachricht- Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Lute strap Datum: 2020-05-22T13:26:04+0200 Von: "Ralf Mattes" An: "Tristan von Neumann" Am Freitag, 22. Mai 2020 12:24 CEST, Tristan von Neumann schrieb: I am going to make myself a nice lute strap. So I have been digging through paintings... Weirdly, no one ever seems to use any form of strap... Look closer/search better. Just two: - https://www.vanedwards.co.uk/spencer/html/spencer4.htm, last picture on page. - the chitarrone player from the medici band as depicted on Torelli's Theorbo method (or here https://i.pinimg.com/736x/ce/b0/1c/ceb01c35498e2df02fd664caa582f1e7.jpg) I think you'll find more at Watteau et al. Cheers, RalfD How did they manage to play? Or did the painters not bother painting them? To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- __ Orlando Lutes http://www.orlando-lutes.com
[LUTE] Re: Lute strap
Hi Tristan and all You can find over 100 items in the The Lute Society's lute iconography database that show a strap or a strap in use: https://lute-images.myjetbrains.com/youtrack/issues/LI?q=%23%7BLute%20strap%20in%20use%7D%20or%20%23%7BUnused%20lute%20strap%7D%20or%20%23%7BWith%20lute%20on%20strap%7D%20 You can filter by date if you wish or just scan down to see them all. Best wishes - Luke On 22-May-2020 12:18, Tristan von Neumann wrote: I have been looking at Renaissance paintings or those around 1600, as I wanted to pick the right ornaments for the strap. Any lute straps in Renaissance paintings? I haven't been looking through the whole database after I found nothing in a dozen paintings, so I stopped to ask here... That's what the list is for, right? :) On 22.05.20 13:43, Joachim Lüdtke wrote: Not to forget the picture of two guy playing in Castaldi's Capricci a due stromenti … :) -Original-Nachricht- Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Lute strap Datum: 2020-05-22T13:26:04+0200 Von: "Ralf Mattes" An: "Tristan von Neumann" Am Freitag, 22. Mai 2020 12:24 CEST, Tristan von Neumann schrieb: I am going to make myself a nice lute strap. So I have been digging through paintings... Weirdly, no one ever seems to use any form of strap... Look closer/search better. Just two: - https://www.vanedwards.co.uk/spencer/html/spencer4.htm, last picture on page. - the chitarrone player from the medici band as depicted on Torelli's Theorbo method (or here https://i.pinimg.com/736x/ce/b0/1c/ceb01c35498e2df02fd664caa582f1e7.jpg) I think you'll find more at Watteau et al. Cheers, RalfD How did they manage to play? Or did the painters not bother painting them? To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- __ Orlando Lutes http://www.orlando-lutes.com
[LUTE] Re: Lute strap
I have been looking at Renaissance paintings or those around 1600, as I wanted to pick the right ornaments for the strap. Any lute straps in Renaissance paintings? I haven't been looking through the whole database after I found nothing in a dozen paintings, so I stopped to ask here... That's what the list is for, right? :) On 22.05.20 13:43, Joachim Lüdtke wrote: Not to forget the picture of two guy playing in Castaldi's Capricci a due stromenti … :) -Original-Nachricht- Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Lute strap Datum: 2020-05-22T13:26:04+0200 Von: "Ralf Mattes" An: "Tristan von Neumann" Am Freitag, 22. Mai 2020 12:24 CEST, Tristan von Neumann schrieb: I am going to make myself a nice lute strap. So I have been digging through paintings... Weirdly, no one ever seems to use any form of strap... Look closer/search better. Just two: - https://www.vanedwards.co.uk/spencer/html/spencer4.htm, last picture on page. - the chitarrone player from the medici band as depicted on Torelli's Theorbo method (or here https://i.pinimg.com/736x/ce/b0/1c/ceb01c35498e2df02fd664caa582f1e7.jpg) I think you'll find more at Watteau et al. Cheers, RalfD How did they manage to play? Or did the painters not bother painting them? To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lute strap
Not to forget the picture of two guy playing in Castaldi's Capricci a due stromenti … :) -Original-Nachricht- Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Lute strap Datum: 2020-05-22T13:26:04+0200 Von: "Ralf Mattes" An: "Tristan von Neumann" Am Freitag, 22. Mai 2020 12:24 CEST, Tristan von Neumann schrieb: > I am going to make myself a nice lute strap. > > So I have been digging through paintings... > > Weirdly, no one ever seems to use any form of strap... Look closer/search better. Just two: - https://www.vanedwards.co.uk/spencer/html/spencer4.htm, last picture on page. - the chitarrone player from the medici band as depicted on Torelli's Theorbo method (or here https://i.pinimg.com/736x/ce/b0/1c/ceb01c35498e2df02fd664caa582f1e7.jpg) I think you'll find more at Watteau et al. Cheers, RalfD > > How did they manage to play? > > Or did the painters not bother painting them? > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Ralf Mattes Hochschule für Musik Freiburg Projektleitung HISinOne Schwarzwaldstr. 141, D-79102 Freiburg http://www.mh-freiburg.de
[LUTE] Re: Lute strap
Am Freitag, 22. Mai 2020 12:24 CEST, Tristan von Neumann schrieb: > I am going to make myself a nice lute strap. > > So I have been digging through paintings... > > Weirdly, no one ever seems to use any form of strap... Look closer/search better. Just two: - https://www.vanedwards.co.uk/spencer/html/spencer4.htm, last picture on page. - the chitarrone player from the medici band as depicted on Torelli's Theorbo method (or here https://i.pinimg.com/736x/ce/b0/1c/ceb01c35498e2df02fd664caa582f1e7.jpg) I think you'll find more at Watteau et al. Cheers, RalfD > > How did they manage to play? > > Or did the painters not bother painting them? > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Ralf Mattes Hochschule für Musik Freiburg Projektleitung HISinOne Schwarzwaldstr. 141, D-79102 Freiburg http://www.mh-freiburg.de
[LUTE] Re: Lute Tablature using Finale
Hi Craig Another option for lute tabulature fonts are those created by Steve Horn, primarily for users of Sibelius for typesetting tabulature, but they can be used in other contexts as well, so they might meet your needs: https://www.scoringnotes.com/tutorials/leroy-early-music-fonts-for-sibelius/ I am using these fonts (with permission and acknowledgement) in LuteScribe, and they look quite nice. Best Wishes - Luke On 25-Mar-2020 01:31, Mac User wrote: Hi all! I’ve been using Finale as my primary music notation software for many years. Recently, I’ve begun arranging Renaissance and early Baroque music for a mixed lute trio (Tenor in G, Alto in A, Soprano in D), and while Finale does a fabulous job notating, transposing, printing, etc., the one complaint I’ve had (and have made it myself) is the look and function of the font used for the letters when notating in the French style. I’ve tried many fonts available on my computer; none seem adequate. Specifically, the letters cover each other when two or more notes appear at the same time. A friend recommended using Fronimo, but I don’t believe that one works on a Mac, which I use exclusively. Does anyone here have a recommendation? Craig Wiggins Durham, NC To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- __ Orlando Lutes http://www.orlando-lutes.com
[LUTE] Re: Lute Tablature using Finale
Yes, they are free for any non commercial use. Of course, I encourage
everyone to use them together with Fronimo :-)))
Francesco
Messaggio originale
Da: "Frank A. Gerbode, M.D."
Data: 29/03/20 20:15 (GMT+01:00)
A: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Oggetto: [LUTE] Re: Lute Tablature using Finale
The fronimo fonts are just regular windows fonts. They are available
in
the free demo version of fronimo.
But I would check with [1]Francesco Tribioli to see if there are
copyright issues in using these fonts in finale.
--Sarge
On 3/29/2020 06:09, Mac User wrote:
Fronimo's fonts do look great, but . . .
1. Wouldn't I have to purchase Fronimo to obtain the fonts? Then I
would have a
program I can't install or use on my Mac.
2. It is my understanding that Fronimo's fonts are formatted for
Windows and don
't work on the Mac anyway.
Is this correct?
Craig
On Mar 28, 2020, at 3:02 PM, Fabio Rizza [2]
wrote:
Just use Fronimo's fonts on Finale.
Regards
Fabio
Il 25/03/2020 02:31, Mac User ha scritto:
Hi all! I've been using Finale as my primary music notation software
for many ye
ars. Recently, I've begun arranging Renaissance and early Baroque music
for a mi
xed lute trio (Tenor in G, Alto in A, Soprano in D), and while Finale
does a fab
ulous job notating, transposing, printing, etc., the one complaint I've
had (and
have made it myself) is the look and function of the font used for the
letters
when notating in the French style. I've tried many fonts available on
my compute
r; none seem adequate. Specifically, the letters cover each other when
two or mo
re notes appear at the same time. A friend recommended using Fronimo,
but I don'
t believe that one works on a Mac, which I use exclusively. Does anyone
here hav
e a recommendation?
Craig Wiggins
Durham, NC
To get on or off this list see list information at
[3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
--
Frank A. Gerbode, M.D. ([4]sa...@gerbode.net)
11132 Dell Ave
Forestville, CA 95436-9491
Home phone: 707-820-1759
Website: [5]http://www.gerbode.net
"The map may not be the territory, but it's all we've got."
--
References
1. mailto://ftribi...@gmail.com/
2. mailto:fabio_ri...@alice.it
3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
4. mailto:sa...@gerbode.net
5. http://www.gerbode.net/
[LUTE] Re: Lute Tablature using Finale
The fronimo fonts are just regular windows fonts. They are available in the free demo version of fronimo. But I would check with [1]Francesco Tribioli to see if there are copyright issues in using these fonts in finale. --Sarge On 3/29/2020 06:09, Mac User wrote: Fronimo's fonts do look great, but . . . 1. Wouldn't I have to purchase Fronimo to obtain the fonts? Then I would have a program I can't install or use on my Mac. 2. It is my understanding that Fronimo's fonts are formatted for Windows and don 't work on the Mac anyway. Is this correct? Craig On Mar 28, 2020, at 3:02 PM, Fabio Rizza [2] wrote: Just use Fronimo's fonts on Finale. Regards Fabio Il 25/03/2020 02:31, Mac User ha scritto: Hi all! I've been using Finale as my primary music notation software for many ye ars. Recently, I've begun arranging Renaissance and early Baroque music for a mi xed lute trio (Tenor in G, Alto in A, Soprano in D), and while Finale does a fab ulous job notating, transposing, printing, etc., the one complaint I've had (and have made it myself) is the look and function of the font used for the letters when notating in the French style. I've tried many fonts available on my compute r; none seem adequate. Specifically, the letters cover each other when two or mo re notes appear at the same time. A friend recommended using Fronimo, but I don' t believe that one works on a Mac, which I use exclusively. Does anyone here hav e a recommendation? Craig Wiggins Durham, NC To get on or off this list see list information at [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Frank A. Gerbode, M.D. ([4]sa...@gerbode.net) 11132 Dell Ave Forestville, CA 95436-9491 Home phone: 707-820-1759 Website: [5]http://www.gerbode.net "The map may not be the territory, but it's all we've got." -- References 1. mailto://ftribi...@gmail.com/ 2. mailto:fabio_ri...@alice.it 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 4. mailto:sa...@gerbode.net 5. http://www.gerbode.net/
[LUTE] Re: Lute Tablature using Finale
The question of copyright and right to use may still be an issue. You might want to check with the person that writes Fronimo to be sure. David -Original Message- From: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu On Behalf Of Jurgen Frenz Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2020 9:34 AM To: Mac User Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lute Tablature using Finale from what I know there is no distinct font format for Windows. The fonts are for download in the file section of the Fronimo group, you can even you them in your text processor if you wish. As explained elsewhere also by me the use of Fronimo on a Mac is without big problems. There are a few keyboard shortcuts that work differently but I don't remember. Did you google on this list? It was discussed a number of times, as I said I explained in detail how I use it on a Mac. Good luck! Jurgen ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐ On Sunday, March 29, 2020 3:09 PM, Mac User wrote: > Fronimo’s fonts do look great, but . . . > > 1. Wouldn’t I have to purchase Fronimo to obtain the fonts? Then I would > have a program I can’t install or use on my Mac. > 2. It is my understanding that Fronimo’s fonts are formatted for Windows and > don’t work on the Mac anyway. > Is this correct? > > Craig > > > > On Mar 28, 2020, at 3:02 PM, Fabio Rizza fabio_ri...@alice.it wrote: > > Just use Fronimo's fonts on Finale. > > Regards > > Fabio > > Il 25/03/2020 02:31, Mac User ha scritto: > > > > > Hi all! I’ve been using Finale as my primary music notation software for > > > many years. Recently, I’ve begun arranging Renaissance and early Baroque > > > music for a mixed lute trio (Tenor in G, Alto in A, Soprano in D), and > > > while Finale does a fabulous job notating, transposing, printing, etc., > > > the one complaint I’ve had (and have made it myself) is the look and > > > function of the font used for the letters when notating in the French > > > style. I’ve tried many fonts available on my computer; none seem > > > adequate. Specifically, the letters cover each other when two or more > > > notes appear at the same time. A friend recommended using Fronimo, but I > > > don’t believe that one works on a Mac, which I use exclusively. Does > > > anyone here have a recommendation? > > > Craig Wiggins > > > Durham, NC > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > > > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lute Tablature using Finale
from what I know there is no distinct font format for Windows. The fonts are for download in the file section of the Fronimo group, you can even you them in your text processor if you wish. As explained elsewhere also by me the use of Fronimo on a Mac is without big problems. There are a few keyboard shortcuts that work differently but I don't remember. Did you google on this list? It was discussed a number of times, as I said I explained in detail how I use it on a Mac. Good luck! Jurgen ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐ On Sunday, March 29, 2020 3:09 PM, Mac User wrote: > Fronimo’s fonts do look great, but . . . > > 1. Wouldn’t I have to purchase Fronimo to obtain the fonts? Then I would > have a program I can’t install or use on my Mac. > 2. It is my understanding that Fronimo’s fonts are formatted for Windows and > don’t work on the Mac anyway. > Is this correct? > > Craig > > > > On Mar 28, 2020, at 3:02 PM, Fabio Rizza fabio_ri...@alice.it wrote: > > Just use Fronimo's fonts on Finale. > > Regards > > Fabio > > Il 25/03/2020 02:31, Mac User ha scritto: > > > > > Hi all! I’ve been using Finale as my primary music notation software for > > > many years. Recently, I’ve begun arranging Renaissance and early Baroque > > > music for a mixed lute trio (Tenor in G, Alto in A, Soprano in D), and > > > while Finale does a fabulous job notating, transposing, printing, etc., > > > the one complaint I’ve had (and have made it myself) is the look and > > > function of the font used for the letters when notating in the French > > > style. I’ve tried many fonts available on my computer; none seem > > > adequate. Specifically, the letters cover each other when two or more > > > notes appear at the same time. A friend recommended using Fronimo, but I > > > don’t believe that one works on a Mac, which I use exclusively. Does > > > anyone here have a recommendation? > > > Craig Wiggins > > > Durham, NC > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > > > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lute Tablature using Finale
Miles These are good options! I will have to figure out how to make Finale use "r" instead of "c" for all 2nd fret notes. I don't readily know if that's possible, but I will explore that option this week. Also: how do most players feel about using mensural notation for the rhythms? I have also created a template that uses the traditional "Stem and Flag" system used by Fronimo, and it looks really good, but I'm curious as to preferences. Cheers! Craig On Mar 28, 2020, at 3:44 PM, Miles Dempster <[1]miles.demps...@gmail.com> wrote: Hello Craig, I'm a Mac user as well. Have you tried looking at Palatino/Bold/Italic?: a b r d e f g h i k l m n. I created a modified version which I use in my publications: [2]http://scoreconversions.com For baroque style there is Cochin: a b r d e f g h i k l m n Best Miles Dempster On Mar 28, 2020, at 3:02 PM, Fabio Rizza <[3]fabio_ri...@alice.it> wrote: Just use Fronimo's fonts on Finale. Regards Fabio Il 25/03/2020 02:31, Mac User ha scritto: Hi all! I've been using Finale as my primary music notation software for many years. Recently, I've begun arranging Renaissance and early Baroque music for a mixed lute trio (Tenor in G, Alto in A, Soprano in D), and while Finale does a fabulous job notating, transposing, printing, etc., the one complaint I've had (and have made it myself) is the look and function of the font used for the letters when notating in the French style. I've tried many fonts available on my computer; none seem adequate. Specifically, the letters cover each other when two or more notes appear at the same time. A friend recommended using Fronimo, but I don't believe that one works on a Mac, which I use exclusively. Does anyone here have a recommendation? Craig Wiggins Durham, NC To get on or off this list see list information at [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:miles.demps...@gmail.com 2. http://scoreconversions.com/ 3. mailto:fabio_ri...@alice.it 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lute Tablature using Finale
Fronimo’s fonts do look great, but . . . 1. Wouldn’t I have to purchase Fronimo to obtain the fonts? Then I would have a program I can’t install or use on my Mac. 2. It is my understanding that Fronimo’s fonts are formatted for Windows and don’t work on the Mac anyway. Is this correct? Craig > On Mar 28, 2020, at 3:02 PM, Fabio Rizza wrote: > > Just use Fronimo's fonts on Finale. > > Regards > Fabio > > Il 25/03/2020 02:31, Mac User ha scritto: >> Hi all! I’ve been using Finale as my primary music notation software for >> many years. Recently, I’ve begun arranging Renaissance and early Baroque >> music for a mixed lute trio (Tenor in G, Alto in A, Soprano in D), and while >> Finale does a fabulous job notating, transposing, printing, etc., the one >> complaint I’ve had (and have made it myself) is the look and function of the >> font used for the letters when notating in the French style. I’ve tried many >> fonts available on my computer; none seem adequate. Specifically, the >> letters cover each other when two or more notes appear at the same time. A >> friend recommended using Fronimo, but I don’t believe that one works on a >> Mac, which I use exclusively. Does anyone here have a recommendation? >> >> Craig Wiggins >> Durham, NC >> >> >> >> To get on or off this list see list information at >> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >> > >
[LUTE] Re: Lute Tablature using Finale
Just use Fronimo's fonts on Finale. Regards Fabio Il 25/03/2020 02:31, Mac User ha scritto: Hi all! I’ve been using Finale as my primary music notation software for many years. Recently, I’ve begun arranging Renaissance and early Baroque music for a mixed lute trio (Tenor in G, Alto in A, Soprano in D), and while Finale does a fabulous job notating, transposing, printing, etc., the one complaint I’ve had (and have made it myself) is the look and function of the font used for the letters when notating in the French style. I’ve tried many fonts available on my computer; none seem adequate. Specifically, the letters cover each other when two or more notes appear at the same time. A friend recommended using Fronimo, but I don’t believe that one works on a Mac, which I use exclusively. Does anyone here have a recommendation? Craig Wiggins Durham, NC To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lute Tablature using Finale
> On Mar 25, 2020, at 2:30 PM, Tristan von Neumann > wrote: > > Wow thanks. That's some progress. > > Unfortunately, this creates Thysius style tabs with the 7th line always > present, which is weird to read as I tend to confuse the lower courses. > > Is there a possibility to hide the 7th line and only show when it is > used, like "normal" tabs? :) > > > On 25.03.20 18:46, guy_and_liz Smith wrote: >> Just in case it wasn't clear, I'm talking about MuseScore, not Finale. >> >> Also, here's the relevant online help URL for the Staff/Part Properties >> dialog: https://musescore.org/en/handbook/staff-part-properties >> >> >> >> -Original Message- >> From: guy_and_liz Smith >> Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2020 10:41 AM >> To: Tristan von Neumann; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu >> Subject: RE: [LUTE] Re: Lute Tablature using Finale >> >> Right-click the staff and select Staff/Part Properties from the context >> dialog. There are actually two context dialogs, so you might need to move >> the cursor and click a few times to get the one with this option. Use the >> dialog's Edit String Data (near the bottom) to add strings and define their >> pitches (you can also change the pitches for the first six from their >> defaults). >> >> Guy >> >> -Original Message- >> From: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu >> [mailto:lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Tristan von >> Neumann >> Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2020 9:17 AM >> To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu >> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lute Tablature using Finale >> >>If you have a newer version, the lute can be found in the instrument >>list. >> >>When you use the wizard, there should be a menu "plucked instruments" >>filed under "early music". >> >>Click "Lute (Tablature" and you get a 6 line staff. >> >>Edit as usual, but you get letters. As I said, more than 6 courses >>doesn't seem to be possible. >> >>If you find out how to add diapasons, please let me know. >> >>On 25.03.20 08:40, Wim Loos wrote: >> >>Daar Tristan, >>I'm using Musescore for 'normal' notes and bars. � >>I wonder of jou know where I can find a manual to use the program to >>create a french tablature. >>Thanks in advance, >>best regards, >>Wim Loos >> >>Op wo 25 mrt. 2020 06:54 schreef Tristan von Neumann >><[1]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de>: >> >> For French tabs with good optics you can also use MuseScore, which >> is >> also free. >> However I have not yet (on Linux) found any support of more than 6 >> courses. >> Editing is quite easy. >> On 25.03.20 06:21, Sean Smith wrote: >> > � � �I've used Parallels to open Fronimo on Mac and it works >> pretty well. My >> > � � �only complaint is that Mac updates sometimes would create >> problems as >> > � � �would OS upgrades. Eventually it would work but rarely the >> same problem >> > � � �twice. That was 8 or 9 years ago so that may be water under >> the bridge. >> > � � �Eventually I just got a dedicated Windows machine and all >> is >> well. They >> > � � �are getting pretty inexpensive and Fronimo doesn't use much >> in the way >> > � � �of computer power. >> > � � �One small requirement is an 'insert' key (to enter a >> space). >> If you >> > � � �don't have one on your mac (or windows keyboard) you'll >> want >> to map one >> > � � �onto it. I'd be lost without it. >> > � � �Sean >> > >> > � � �On Tue, Mar 24, 2020 at 6:33 PM Mac User >> <[1][2]cwiggin...@nc.rr.com> >> > � � �wrote: >> > >> > � � � �Hi all! I've been using Finale as my primary music >> notation >> software >> > � � � �for many years. Recently, I've begun arranging >> Renaissance >> and early >> > � � � �Baroque music for a mixed lute trio (Tenor in G, Alto >> in A, >> Soprano >> > � � � �in D), and while Finale does a fabulous job notating, >> transposing, >> > � � � �printing, etc., the one complaint
[LUTE] Re: Lute Tablature using Finale
Yes, that's how I am using it so it's definitely possible. That said It's been several months since I last used MuseScore for tablature, so my memory is a bit fuzzy. IIRC you use the Staff/Properties dialog to set the number of lines to six (near the top). It then treats the seventh and lower courses that you defined in Edit String Data like additional lines for data entry, but puts them below the 6 line staff with an appropriate number of '/' chars. Also, the Advanced Style Properties button allows you to tweak a lot of things, like the font. I remember that it took some frustrating trial and error to do all the necessary tweaks, but it eventually produced some nice looking 8-course/6-line tab. Annoying but you only need to do it once. Ganbatte! Guy -Original Message- From: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Tristan von Neumann Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2020 11:31 AM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lute Tablature using Finale Wow thanks. That's some progress. Unfortunately, this creates Thysius style tabs with the 7th line always present, which is weird to read as I tend to confuse the lower courses. Is there a possibility to hide the 7th line and only show when it is used, like "normal" tabs? :) On 25.03.20 18:46, guy_and_liz Smith wrote: > Just in case it wasn't clear, I'm talking about MuseScore, not Finale. > > Also, here's the relevant online help URL for the Staff/Part Properties > dialog: > https://eur05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmusescore.org%2Fen%2Fhandbook%2Fstaff-part-propertiesdata=02%7C01%7C%7C484d6d0b0fb24fc8dedf08d7d0ec7f9d%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C637207586527156639sdata=yo%2FBZYdMdfkm3D1eGkMudtKUrWr8WUOQDGbJhZDrXro%3Dreserved=0 > > > > -Original Message- > From: guy_and_liz Smith > Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2020 10:41 AM > To: Tristan von Neumann; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > Subject: RE: [LUTE] Re: Lute Tablature using Finale > > Right-click the staff and select Staff/Part Properties from the context > dialog. There are actually two context dialogs, so you might need to move the > cursor and click a few times to get the one with this option. Use the > dialog's Edit String Data (near the bottom) to add strings and define their > pitches (you can also change the pitches for the first six from their > defaults). > > Guy > > -Original Message- > From: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu > [mailto:lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Tristan von > Neumann > Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2020 9:17 AM > To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lute Tablature using Finale > > If you have a newer version, the lute can be found in the instrument > list. > > When you use the wizard, there should be a menu "plucked instruments" > filed under "early music". > > Click "Lute (Tablature" and you get a 6 line staff. > > Edit as usual, but you get letters. As I said, more than 6 courses > doesn't seem to be possible. > > If you find out how to add diapasons, please let me know. > > On 25.03.20 08:40, Wim Loos wrote: > > Daar Tristan, > I'm using Musescore for 'normal' notes and bars. � > I wonder of jou know where I can find a manual to use the program to > create a french tablature. > Thanks in advance, > best regards, > Wim Loos > > Op wo 25 mrt. 2020 06:54 schreef Tristan von Neumann > <[1]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de>: > > For French tabs with good optics you can also use MuseScore, which > is > also free. > However I have not yet (on Linux) found any support of more than 6 > courses. > Editing is quite easy. > On 25.03.20 06:21, Sean Smith wrote: > > � � �I've used Parallels to open Fronimo on Mac and it works > pretty well. My > > � � �only complaint is that Mac updates sometimes would create > problems as > > � � �would OS upgrades. Eventually it would work but rarely the > same problem > > � � �twice. That was 8 or 9 years ago so that may be water under > the bridge. > > � � �Eventually I just got a dedicated Windows machine and all is > well. They > > � � �are getting pretty inexpensive and Fronimo doesn't use much > in the way > > � � �of computer power. > > � � �One small requirement is an 'insert' key (to enter a space). > If you > > � � �don't have one on your mac (or windows keyboard) you'll want > to map one > > � � �onto it. I'd be lost without it. &g
[LUTE] Re: Lute Tablature using Finale
Wow thanks. That's some progress. Unfortunately, this creates Thysius style tabs with the 7th line always present, which is weird to read as I tend to confuse the lower courses. Is there a possibility to hide the 7th line and only show when it is used, like "normal" tabs? :) On 25.03.20 18:46, guy_and_liz Smith wrote: Just in case it wasn't clear, I'm talking about MuseScore, not Finale. Also, here's the relevant online help URL for the Staff/Part Properties dialog: https://musescore.org/en/handbook/staff-part-properties -Original Message- From: guy_and_liz Smith Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2020 10:41 AM To: Tristan von Neumann; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: RE: [LUTE] Re: Lute Tablature using Finale Right-click the staff and select Staff/Part Properties from the context dialog. There are actually two context dialogs, so you might need to move the cursor and click a few times to get the one with this option. Use the dialog's Edit String Data (near the bottom) to add strings and define their pitches (you can also change the pitches for the first six from their defaults). Guy -Original Message- From: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Tristan von Neumann Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2020 9:17 AM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lute Tablature using Finale If you have a newer version, the lute can be found in the instrument list. When you use the wizard, there should be a menu "plucked instruments" filed under "early music". Click "Lute (Tablature" and you get a 6 line staff. Edit as usual, but you get letters. As I said, more than 6 courses doesn't seem to be possible. If you find out how to add diapasons, please let me know. On 25.03.20 08:40, Wim Loos wrote: Daar Tristan, I'm using Musescore for 'normal' notes and bars. � I wonder of jou know where I can find a manual to use the program to create a french tablature. Thanks in advance, best regards, Wim Loos Op wo 25 mrt. 2020 06:54 schreef Tristan von Neumann <[1]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de>: For French tabs with good optics you can also use MuseScore, which is also free. However I have not yet (on Linux) found any support of more than 6 courses. Editing is quite easy. On 25.03.20 06:21, Sean Smith wrote: > � � �I've used Parallels to open Fronimo on Mac and it works pretty well. My > � � �only complaint is that Mac updates sometimes would create problems as > � � �would OS upgrades. Eventually it would work but rarely the same problem > � � �twice. That was 8 or 9 years ago so that may be water under the bridge. > � � �Eventually I just got a dedicated Windows machine and all is well. They > � � �are getting pretty inexpensive and Fronimo doesn't use much in the way > � � �of computer power. > � � �One small requirement is an 'insert' key (to enter a space). If you > � � �don't have one on your mac (or windows keyboard) you'll want to map one > � � �onto it. I'd be lost without it. > � � �Sean > > � � �On Tue, Mar 24, 2020 at 6:33 PM Mac User <[1][2]cwiggin...@nc.rr.com> > � � �wrote: > > � � � �Hi all! I've been using Finale as my primary music notation software > � � � �for many years. Recently, I've begun arranging Renaissance and early > � � � �Baroque music for a mixed lute trio (Tenor in G, Alto in A, Soprano > � � � �in D), and while Finale does a fabulous job notating, transposing, > � � � �printing, etc., the one complaint I've had (and have made it myself) > � � � �is the look and function of the font used for the letters when > � � � �notating in the French style. I've tried many fonts available on my > � � � �computer; none seem adequate. Specifically, the letters cover each > � � � �other when two or more notes appear at the same time. A friend > � � � �recommended using Fronimo, but I don't believe that one works on a > � � � �Mac, which I use exclusively. Does anyone here have a > � � � �recommendation? > � � � �Craig Wiggins > � � � �Durham, NC > � � � �To get on or off this list see list information at > � � � �[2][3]https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http:%2F%2Fwww.cs.dartmouth.edu%2F~wbc%2Flute-admin%2Findex.htmldata=02%7C01%7C%7C05c3a472c86545592ee008d7d0d9c6ef%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C637207506064961061sdata=7P6EZSl81f9nuAHDg%2BOBlbBeFH83XEVWkQmXesWHaIk%3Dreserved=0 > > � � �-- >
[LUTE] Re: Lute Tablature using Finale
Just in case it wasn't clear, I'm talking about MuseScore, not Finale. Also, here's the relevant online help URL for the Staff/Part Properties dialog: https://musescore.org/en/handbook/staff-part-properties -Original Message- From: guy_and_liz Smith Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2020 10:41 AM To: Tristan von Neumann; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: RE: [LUTE] Re: Lute Tablature using Finale Right-click the staff and select Staff/Part Properties from the context dialog. There are actually two context dialogs, so you might need to move the cursor and click a few times to get the one with this option. Use the dialog's Edit String Data (near the bottom) to add strings and define their pitches (you can also change the pitches for the first six from their defaults). Guy -Original Message- From: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Tristan von Neumann Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2020 9:17 AM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lute Tablature using Finale If you have a newer version, the lute can be found in the instrument list. When you use the wizard, there should be a menu "plucked instruments" filed under "early music". Click "Lute (Tablature" and you get a 6 line staff. Edit as usual, but you get letters. As I said, more than 6 courses doesn't seem to be possible. If you find out how to add diapasons, please let me know. On 25.03.20 08:40, Wim Loos wrote: Daar Tristan, I'm using Musescore for 'normal' notes and bars. � I wonder of jou know where I can find a manual to use the program to create a french tablature. Thanks in advance, best regards, Wim Loos Op wo 25 mrt. 2020 06:54 schreef Tristan von Neumann <[1]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de>: For French tabs with good optics you can also use MuseScore, which is also free. However I have not yet (on Linux) found any support of more than 6 courses. Editing is quite easy. On 25.03.20 06:21, Sean Smith wrote: > � � �I've used Parallels to open Fronimo on Mac and it works pretty well. My > � � �only complaint is that Mac updates sometimes would create problems as > � � �would OS upgrades. Eventually it would work but rarely the same problem > � � �twice. That was 8 or 9 years ago so that may be water under the bridge. > � � �Eventually I just got a dedicated Windows machine and all is well. They > � � �are getting pretty inexpensive and Fronimo doesn't use much in the way > � � �of computer power. > � � �One small requirement is an 'insert' key (to enter a space). If you > � � �don't have one on your mac (or windows keyboard) you'll want to map one > � � �onto it. I'd be lost without it. > � � �Sean > > � � �On Tue, Mar 24, 2020 at 6:33 PM Mac User <[1][2]cwiggin...@nc.rr.com> > � � �wrote: > > � � � �Hi all! I've been using Finale as my primary music notation software > � � � �for many years. Recently, I've begun arranging Renaissance and early > � � � �Baroque music for a mixed lute trio (Tenor in G, Alto in A, Soprano > � � � �in D), and while Finale does a fabulous job notating, transposing, > � � � �printing, etc., the one complaint I've had (and have made it myself) > � � � �is the look and function of the font used for the letters when > � � � �notating in the French style. I've tried many fonts available on my > � � � �computer; none seem adequate. Specifically, the letters cover each > � � � �other when two or more notes appear at the same time. A friend > � � � �recommended using Fronimo, but I don't believe that one works on a > � � � �Mac, which I use exclusively. Does anyone here have a > � � � �recommendation? > � � � �Craig Wiggins > � � � �Durham, NC > � � � �To get on or off this list see list information at > � � � �[2][3]https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http:%2F%2Fwww.cs.dartmouth.edu%2F~wbc%2Flute-admin%2Findex.htmldata=02%7C01%7C%7C05c3a472c86545592ee008d7d0d9c6ef%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C637207506064961061sdata=7P6EZSl81f9nuAHDg%2BOBlbBeFH83XEVWkQmXesWHaIk%3Dreserved=0 > > � � �-- > > References > > � � �1. mailto:[4]cwiggin...@nc.rr.com > � � �2. [5]https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http:%2F%2Fwww.cs.dartmouth.edu%2F~wbc%2Flute-admin%2Findex.htmldata=02%7C01%7C%7C05c3a472c86545592ee008d7d0d9c6ef%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C637207506064961061sdata=7P6EZSl81f9nuAHDg%2BOBlbBeFH83XEVWkQmXesWHaIk%3Dreserved=0 > -- References
[LUTE] Re: Lute Tablature using Finale
Right-click the staff and select Staff/Part Properties from the context dialog. There are actually two context dialogs, so you might need to move the cursor and click a few times to get the one with this option. Use the dialog's Edit String Data (near the bottom) to add strings and define their pitches (you can also change the pitches for the first six from their defaults). Guy -Original Message- From: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Tristan von Neumann Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2020 9:17 AM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lute Tablature using Finale If you have a newer version, the lute can be found in the instrument list. When you use the wizard, there should be a menu "plucked instruments" filed under "early music". Click "Lute (Tablature" and you get a 6 line staff. Edit as usual, but you get letters. As I said, more than 6 courses doesn't seem to be possible. If you find out how to add diapasons, please let me know. On 25.03.20 08:40, Wim Loos wrote: Daar Tristan, I'm using Musescore for 'normal' notes and bars. � I wonder of jou know where I can find a manual to use the program to create a french tablature. Thanks in advance, best regards, Wim Loos Op wo 25 mrt. 2020 06:54 schreef Tristan von Neumann <[1]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de>: For French tabs with good optics you can also use MuseScore, which is also free. However I have not yet (on Linux) found any support of more than 6 courses. Editing is quite easy. On 25.03.20 06:21, Sean Smith wrote: > � � �I've used Parallels to open Fronimo on Mac and it works pretty well. My > � � �only complaint is that Mac updates sometimes would create problems as > � � �would OS upgrades. Eventually it would work but rarely the same problem > � � �twice. That was 8 or 9 years ago so that may be water under the bridge. > � � �Eventually I just got a dedicated Windows machine and all is well. They > � � �are getting pretty inexpensive and Fronimo doesn't use much in the way > � � �of computer power. > � � �One small requirement is an 'insert' key (to enter a space). If you > � � �don't have one on your mac (or windows keyboard) you'll want to map one > � � �onto it. I'd be lost without it. > � � �Sean > > � � �On Tue, Mar 24, 2020 at 6:33 PM Mac User <[1][2]cwiggin...@nc.rr.com> > � � �wrote: > > � � � �Hi all! I've been using Finale as my primary music notation software > � � � �for many years. Recently, I've begun arranging Renaissance and early > � � � �Baroque music for a mixed lute trio (Tenor in G, Alto in A, Soprano > � � � �in D), and while Finale does a fabulous job notating, transposing, > � � � �printing, etc., the one complaint I've had (and have made it myself) > � � � �is the look and function of the font used for the letters when > � � � �notating in the French style. I've tried many fonts available on my > � � � �computer; none seem adequate. Specifically, the letters cover each > � � � �other when two or more notes appear at the same time. A friend > � � � �recommended using Fronimo, but I don't believe that one works on a > � � � �Mac, which I use exclusively. Does anyone here have a > � � � �recommendation? > � � � �Craig Wiggins > � � � �Durham, NC > � � � �To get on or off this list see list information at > � � � �[2][3]https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http:%2F%2Fwww.cs.dartmouth.edu%2F~wbc%2Flute-admin%2Findex.htmldata=02%7C01%7C%7C05c3a472c86545592ee008d7d0d9c6ef%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C637207506064961061sdata=7P6EZSl81f9nuAHDg%2BOBlbBeFH83XEVWkQmXesWHaIk%3Dreserved=0 > > � � �-- > > References > > � � �1. mailto:[4]cwiggin...@nc.rr.com > � � �2. [5]https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http:%2F%2Fwww.cs.dartmouth.edu%2F~wbc%2Flute-admin%2Findex.htmldata=02%7C01%7C%7C05c3a472c86545592ee008d7d0d9c6ef%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C637207506064961061sdata=7P6EZSl81f9nuAHDg%2BOBlbBeFH83XEVWkQmXesWHaIk%3Dreserved=0 > -- References 1. mailto:tristanvonneum...@gmx.de 2. mailto:cwiggin...@nc.rr.com 3. https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http:%2F%2Fwww.cs.dartmouth.edu%2F~wbc%2Flute-admin%2Findex.htmldata=02%7C01%7C%7C05c3a472c86545592ee008d7d0d9c6ef%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C637207506064961061sdata=7P6EZSl81f9nuAHDg%2BOBlbBeFH83XEVWkQmXesWHaIk%3Dreserved=0 4. mailto:
[LUTE] Re: Lute Tablature using Finale
If you have a newer version, the lute can be found in the instrument list. When you use the wizard, there should be a menu "plucked instruments" filed under "early music". Click "Lute (Tablature" and you get a 6 line staff. Edit as usual, but you get letters. As I said, more than 6 courses doesn't seem to be possible. If you find out how to add diapasons, please let me know. On 25.03.20 08:40, Wim Loos wrote: Daar Tristan, I'm using Musescore for 'normal' notes and bars. � I wonder of jou know where I can find a manual to use the program to create a french tablature. Thanks in advance, best regards, Wim Loos Op wo 25 mrt. 2020 06:54 schreef Tristan von Neumann <[1]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de>: For French tabs with good optics you can also use MuseScore, which is also free. However I have not yet (on Linux) found any support of more than 6 courses. Editing is quite easy. On 25.03.20 06:21, Sean Smith wrote: > � � �I've used Parallels to open Fronimo on Mac and it works pretty well. My > � � �only complaint is that Mac updates sometimes would create problems as > � � �would OS upgrades. Eventually it would work but rarely the same problem > � � �twice. That was 8 or 9 years ago so that may be water under the bridge. > � � �Eventually I just got a dedicated Windows machine and all is well. They > � � �are getting pretty inexpensive and Fronimo doesn't use much in the way > � � �of computer power. > � � �One small requirement is an 'insert' key (to enter a space). If you > � � �don't have one on your mac (or windows keyboard) you'll want to map one > � � �onto it. I'd be lost without it. > � � �Sean > > � � �On Tue, Mar 24, 2020 at 6:33 PM Mac User <[1][2]cwiggin...@nc.rr.com> > � � �wrote: > > � � � �Hi all! I've been using Finale as my primary music notation software > � � � �for many years. Recently, I've begun arranging Renaissance and early > � � � �Baroque music for a mixed lute trio (Tenor in G, Alto in A, Soprano > � � � �in D), and while Finale does a fabulous job notating, transposing, > � � � �printing, etc., the one complaint I've had (and have made it myself) > � � � �is the look and function of the font used for the letters when > � � � �notating in the French style. I've tried many fonts available on my > � � � �computer; none seem adequate. Specifically, the letters cover each > � � � �other when two or more notes appear at the same time. A friend > � � � �recommended using Fronimo, but I don't believe that one works on a > � � � �Mac, which I use exclusively. Does anyone here have a > � � � �recommendation? > � � � �Craig Wiggins > � � � �Durham, NC > � � � �To get on or off this list see list information at > � � � �[2][3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > � � �-- > > References > > � � �1. mailto:[4]cwiggin...@nc.rr.com > � � �2. [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > -- References 1. mailto:tristanvonneum...@gmx.de 2. mailto:cwiggin...@nc.rr.com 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 4. mailto:cwiggin...@nc.rr.com 5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lute Tablature using Finale
For French tabs with good optics you can also use MuseScore, which is also free. However I have not yet (on Linux) found any support of more than 6 courses. Editing is quite easy. On 25.03.20 06:21, Sean Smith wrote: I've used Parallels to open Fronimo on Mac and it works pretty well. My only complaint is that Mac updates sometimes would create problems as would OS upgrades. Eventually it would work but rarely the same problem twice. That was 8 or 9 years ago so that may be water under the bridge. Eventually I just got a dedicated Windows machine and all is well. They are getting pretty inexpensive and Fronimo doesn't use much in the way of computer power. One small requirement is an 'insert' key (to enter a space). If you don't have one on your mac (or windows keyboard) you'll want to map one onto it. I'd be lost without it. Sean On Tue, Mar 24, 2020 at 6:33 PM Mac User <[1]cwiggin...@nc.rr.com> wrote: Hi all! I've been using Finale as my primary music notation software for many years. Recently, I've begun arranging Renaissance and early Baroque music for a mixed lute trio (Tenor in G, Alto in A, Soprano in D), and while Finale does a fabulous job notating, transposing, printing, etc., the one complaint I've had (and have made it myself) is the look and function of the font used for the letters when notating in the French style. I've tried many fonts available on my computer; none seem adequate. Specifically, the letters cover each other when two or more notes appear at the same time. A friend recommended using Fronimo, but I don't believe that one works on a Mac, which I use exclusively. Does anyone here have a recommendation? Craig Wiggins Durham, NC To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:cwiggin...@nc.rr.com 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lute Tablature using Finale
I've used Parallels to open Fronimo on Mac and it works pretty well. My only complaint is that Mac updates sometimes would create problems as would OS upgrades. Eventually it would work but rarely the same problem twice. That was 8 or 9 years ago so that may be water under the bridge. Eventually I just got a dedicated Windows machine and all is well. They are getting pretty inexpensive and Fronimo doesn't use much in the way of computer power. One small requirement is an 'insert' key (to enter a space). If you don't have one on your mac (or windows keyboard) you'll want to map one onto it. I'd be lost without it. Sean On Tue, Mar 24, 2020 at 6:33 PM Mac User <[1]cwiggin...@nc.rr.com> wrote: Hi all! I've been using Finale as my primary music notation software for many years. Recently, I've begun arranging Renaissance and early Baroque music for a mixed lute trio (Tenor in G, Alto in A, Soprano in D), and while Finale does a fabulous job notating, transposing, printing, etc., the one complaint I've had (and have made it myself) is the look and function of the font used for the letters when notating in the French style. I've tried many fonts available on my computer; none seem adequate. Specifically, the letters cover each other when two or more notes appear at the same time. A friend recommended using Fronimo, but I don't believe that one works on a Mac, which I use exclusively. Does anyone here have a recommendation? Craig Wiggins Durham, NC To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:cwiggin...@nc.rr.com 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lute Tablature using Finale
I use Finale. For French tab font I use Times Roman bold italics. Size 11. I place the ciphers through the tab lines, not in between. I check the box to not let tab lines cross the tab ciphers. David On Wed, 25 Mar 2020 at 02:36, Mac User <[1]cwiggin...@nc.rr.com> wrote: Hi all! I've been using Finale as my primary music notation software for many years. Recently, I've begun arranging Renaissance and early Baroque music for a mixed lute trio (Tenor in G, Alto in A, Soprano in D), and while Finale does a fabulous job notating, transposing, printing, etc., the one complaint I've had (and have made it myself) is the look and function of the font used for the letters when notating in the French style. I've tried many fonts available on my computer; none seem adequate. Specifically, the letters cover each other when two or more notes appear at the same time. A friend recommended using Fronimo, but I don't believe that one works on a Mac, which I use exclusively. Does anyone here have a recommendation? Craig Wiggins Durham, NC To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- *** David van Ooijen [3]davidvanooi...@gmail.com [4]https://davidvanooijen.wordpress.com *** -- References 1. mailto:cwiggin...@nc.rr.com 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 3. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 4. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/
[LUTE] Re: Lute Tablature using Finale
Yes, you can use Fronimo on a mac. You may want to poke through the
archives to find out how to do it.
I seem to remember that there was something like emulating a pc
environment for Fronimo on your mac.
I am by no means a computer expert or something, but members of the
list talked about that issue several times.
Mathias
Gesendet mit der Telekom Mail App
--- Original-Nachricht ---
Von: Mac User
Betreff: [LUTE] Lute Tablature using Finale
Datum: 25.03.2020, 2:31 Uhr
An: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
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url("file:///android_asset/fonts/telegrotesk_normal.ttf");}html,body {
font-family: "telegrotesk-medium_normal"; font-size: medium; color:
#4b4b4b; width: 100%;}
Hi all! I've been using Finale as my primary music notation software
for many years. Recently, I've begun arranging Renaissance and early
Baroque music for a mixed lute trio (Tenor in G, Alto in A, Soprano in
D), and while Finale does a fabulous job notating, transposing,
printing, etc., the one complaint I've had (and have made it myself) is
the look and function of the font used for the letters when notating in
the French style. I've tried many fonts available on my computer; none
seem adequate. Specifically, the letters cover each other when two or
more notes appear at the same time. A friend recommended using Fronimo,
but I don't believe that one works on a Mac, which I use exclusively.
Does anyone here have a recommendation?
Craig Wiggins
Durham, NC
To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
--
[LUTE] Re: Lute Edition
The other point, which I realize is slightly tangential to this topic, is we can create, and share, our own personal lute books, if we so choose. Most lute books were collections of pieces from diverse authors and there is no reason we can't, for our own pleasure, take a piece from Milleran here, and Vienna there, add in a piece or two from Kalmar, and have them all look as one. This was standard practice back in the day and, with the advent of both fully-editable scores (TAB, Django, Fronimo) and page-editable scores (PDF), we have traded exclusivity (and beauty in some cases) for ease of use and sharing. Personally, I use both and find one not worse, nor better, but it is good to have options. .. mark. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lute Humor
We wrote about that a while ago on our blog: [1]https://www.cuerdaspulsadas.es/blog/60-anos-afinando-el-laud/ You can translate it to any language using the flags at the top left corner. Regards. El sáb., 7 dic. 2019 a las 20:07, Alain Veylit (<[2]al...@musickshandmade.com>) escribió: I agree: humans are notoriously impatient. Perhaps this explains why tempo, pitch and decibels have been going up and up throughout the history of music. On 12/6/19 11:06 PM, Sean Smith wrote: > If they are playing for other angels dancing on a pin, no rush at all. > But any human audience eventually needs to go home and feed the little > humans. > > On Fri, Dec 6, 2019 at 9:07 PM Alain Veylit > <[1][3]al...@musickshandmade.com> wrote: > >Only takes her that long because she has funny hands. Most >(anatomically >correct) people can do it in a jiffy. It's true. (Besides, if you >are >immortal, what's the rush?) >On 12/6/19 2:15 PM, Tristan von Neumann wrote: >> I just found this on TwoSetViolin's subreddit: >> >> >> [2][4]https://i.redd.it/qtufsdsfwz241.jpg >> >> >> >> >> To get on or off this list see list information at >> [3][5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > -- > > References > > 1. mailto:[6]al...@musickshandmade.com > 2. [7]https://i.redd.it/qtufsdsfwz241.jpg > 3. [8]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > -- Cuerdas Pulsadas [9]www.cuerdaspulsadas.com || [10]h...@cuerdaspulsadas.com [11]BLOG || [12]AGENDA || [13]TIMELINE [14]blog [15]facebook [16]twitter [17]instagram -- References 1. https://www.cuerdaspulsadas.es/blog/60-anos-afinando-el-laud/ 2. mailto:al...@musickshandmade.com 3. mailto:al...@musickshandmade.com 4. https://i.redd.it/qtufsdsfwz241.jpg 5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 6. mailto:al...@musickshandmade.com 7. https://i.redd.it/qtufsdsfwz241.jpg 8. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 9. http://www.cuerdaspulsadas.com/ 10. mailto:h...@cuerdaspulsadas.com 11. http://www.cuerdaspulsadas.es/blog 12. http://cuerdaspulsadas.es/blog/agenda/ 13. http://www.cuerdaspulsadas.com/timeline 14. http://.cuerdaspulsadas.com/blog 15. http://www.facebook.com/cuerdaspulsadas 16. http://www.twitter.com/cuerdaspulsadas 17. http://www.instagram.com/cuerdaspulsadas
[LUTE] Re: Lute Humor
I agree: humans are notoriously impatient. Perhaps this explains why tempo, pitch and decibels have been going up and up throughout the history of music. On 12/6/19 11:06 PM, Sean Smith wrote: If they are playing for other angels dancing on a pin, no rush at all. But any human audience eventually needs to go home and feed the little humans. On Fri, Dec 6, 2019 at 9:07 PM Alain Veylit <[1]al...@musickshandmade.com> wrote: Only takes her that long because she has funny hands. Most (anatomically correct) people can do it in a jiffy. It's true. (Besides, if you are immortal, what's the rush?) On 12/6/19 2:15 PM, Tristan von Neumann wrote: > I just found this on TwoSetViolin's subreddit: > > > [2]https://i.redd.it/qtufsdsfwz241.jpg > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:al...@musickshandmade.com 2. https://i.redd.it/qtufsdsfwz241.jpg 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lute Humor
If they are playing for other angels dancing on a pin, no rush at all. But any human audience eventually needs to go home and feed the little humans. On Fri, Dec 6, 2019 at 9:07 PM Alain Veylit <[1]al...@musickshandmade.com> wrote: Only takes her that long because she has funny hands. Most (anatomically correct) people can do it in a jiffy. It's true. (Besides, if you are immortal, what's the rush?) On 12/6/19 2:15 PM, Tristan von Neumann wrote: > I just found this on TwoSetViolin's subreddit: > > > [2]https://i.redd.it/qtufsdsfwz241.jpg > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:al...@musickshandmade.com 2. https://i.redd.it/qtufsdsfwz241.jpg 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lute Humor
Only takes her that long because she has funny hands. Most (anatomically correct) people can do it in a jiffy. It's true. (Besides, if you are immortal, what's the rush?) On 12/6/19 2:15 PM, Tristan von Neumann wrote: I just found this on TwoSetViolin's subreddit: https://i.redd.it/qtufsdsfwz241.jpg To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lute Humor
I like it. Eugene -Original Message- From: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu On Behalf Of Tristan von Neumann Sent: Friday, December 6, 2019 5:15 PM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Lute Humor I just found this on TwoSetViolin's subreddit: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://i.redd.it/qtufsdsfwz241.jpg__;!bvwDki4T53I!kh_zZmwalGl8C3drXCQQN46_ZhOqtMqKR40WuYa2hQwAmP62usf87WxFunyHs60$ To get on or off this list see list information at https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/*wbc/lute-admin/index.html__;fg!bvwDki4T53I!kh_zZmwalGl8C3drXCQQN46_ZhOqtMqKR40WuYa2hQwAmP62usf87WxFJI_4Q0k$
[LUTE] Re: Lute + recorder
The London Pro Musica editions of then-popular pieces with divisions by Bassano (with lute tablature) are particularly good. Jim Stimson -Original Message- From: David van Ooijen Cc: lutelist Net Sent: Sat, Aug 17, 2019 4:15 pm Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lute + recorder LPM had a series with written out tab parts for lute. But basically, anything polyphonic goes if you can read from the score or are willing to make your own parts from the score. It's a century or more of music up for grabs! David *** David van Ooijen [1][1]davidvanooi...@gmail.com [2]www.davidvanooijen.nl *** On Sat, 17 Aug 2019 at 22:03, Leonard Williams <[3][2]arc...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote: I'm seeking sources for music with renaissance lute accompanying recorder. Any suggestions are welcome. Thanks and regards, Leonard Williams -- To get on or off this list see list information at [4][3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:[4]davidvanooi...@gmail.com 2. [5]http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/ 3. mailto:[6]arc...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu 4. [7]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 2. mailto:arc...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 4. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 5. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/ 6. mailto:arc...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu 7. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lute + recorder
Karen Meyers (Pan's Fancy) published 3 volumes of just such pieces for lute and recorder. I think they were once available from the Am lute soc. If you can't find them get back in touch with me. Bob Purrenhage On 8/17/2019 3:59 PM, Leonard Williams wrote: I'm seeking sources for music with renaissance lute accompanying recorder. Any suggestions are welcome. Thanks and regards, Leonard Williams -- To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lute + recorder
I have asked for music for lute and recorder in the past. And some people have very kindly sent arrangements that they have made or collected from others. There must be ready-to-go lute and recorder pieces somewhere online. Sometimes in the arrangements (made by enthusiasts today), the lute has much more work to do than the recorder. For an average lute player and an average recorder player this is not good (in my opinion, of course). I think that lively recorder parts with simple lute accompaniments are likely to be most effective. On 17 August 2019, at 23:16, "Frank A. Gerbode, M.D." wrote: In case you *don't* have enough to do and you like earlier stuff, you could check out the [1]Bossinensis frottole. Also the lute parts are pretty easy. --Sarge On 8/17/2019 14:28, Leonard Williams wrote: Thanks, all! Looks like I've got some work cut out for me! Leonard -Original Message- From: Andre Nieuwlaat [2] To: lute [3] Sent: Sat, Aug 17, 2019 4:28 pm Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lute + recorder Many of the pieces in the Paston lute books are intabulations of polyphonic pieces (motets, movements from masses, madrigals, fantasias), with the superius part left out. The superius part can of course be played on recorder. Andr Op za 17 aug. 2019 om 22:07 schreef Tristan von Neumann [4]<[1][1]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de>: Dario Castello comes to mind. At least one of the solo sonatas are available online with tabs. If you play continuo, this is no problem anyway. The Bass line is pretty self explanatory. If you like older stuff: Pierre Attaignant's Tres Breve et familiere introduction with Chanson melodies is nice and easy to play. On 17.08.19 21:59, Leonard Williams wrote: > I'm seeking sources for music with renaissance lute accompanying > recorder. Any suggestions are welcome. > Thanks and regards, > Leonard Williams > > -- > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > [2][2][5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > -- References 1. mailto:[[6]3]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de 2. [4][7]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. [8]mailto:tristanvonneum...@gmx.de 2. [9]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 3. [10]mailto:tristanvonneum...@gmx.de 4. [11]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://gerbode.net/sources/Bossinensis/ 2. mailto:ajpm.nieuwl...@gmail.com 3. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 4. mailto:[1][1]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de 5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 6. mailto:3]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de 7. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 8. mailto:tristanvonneum...@gmx.de 9. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 10. mailto:tristanvonneum...@gmx.de 11. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lute + recorder
In case you *don't* have enough to do and you like earlier stuff, you could check out the [1]Bossinensis frottole. Also the lute parts are pretty easy. --Sarge On 8/17/2019 14:28, Leonard Williams wrote: Thanks, all! Looks like I've got some work cut out for me! Leonard -Original Message- From: Andre Nieuwlaat [2] To: lute [3] Sent: Sat, Aug 17, 2019 4:28 pm Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lute + recorder Many of the pieces in the Paston lute books are intabulations of polyphonic pieces (motets, movements from masses, madrigals, fantasias), with the superius part left out. The superius part can of course be played on recorder. Andr̮ ̩ Op za 17 aug. 2019 om 22:07 schreef Tristan von Neumann [4]<[1][1]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de>: Dario Castello comes to mind. At least one of the solo sonatas are available online with tabs. If you play continuo, this is no problem anyway. The Bass line is pretty self explanatory. If you like older stuff: Pierre Attaignant's Tres Breve et familiere introduction with Chanson melodies is nice and easy to play. On 17.08.19 21:59, Leonard Williams wrote: > I'm seeking sources for music with renaissance lute accompanying > recorder. Any suggestions are welcome. > Thanks and regards, > Leonard Williams > > -- > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > [2][2][5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > -- References 1. mailto:[[6]3]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de 2. [4][7]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. [8]mailto:tristanvonneum...@gmx.de 2. [9]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 3. [10]mailto:tristanvonneum...@gmx.de 4. [11]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://gerbode.net/sources/Bossinensis/ 2. mailto:ajpm.nieuwl...@gmail.com 3. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 4. mailto:[1][1]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de 5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 6. mailto:3]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de 7. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 8. mailto:tristanvonneum...@gmx.de 9. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 10. mailto:tristanvonneum...@gmx.de 11. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lute + recorder
Thanks, all! Looks like I've got some work cut out for me! Leonard -Original Message- From: Andre Nieuwlaat To: lute Sent: Sat, Aug 17, 2019 4:28 pm Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lute + recorder Many of the pieces in the Paston lute books are intabulations of polyphonic pieces (motets, movements from masses, madrigals, fantasias), with the superius part left out. The superius part can of course be played on recorder. Andrà © Op za 17 aug. 2019 om 22:07 schreef Tristan von Neumann <[1][1]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de>: Dario Castello comes to mind. At least one of the solo sonatas are available online with tabs. If you play continuo, this is no problem anyway. The Bass line is pretty self explanatory. If you like older stuff: Pierre Attaignant's Tres Breve et familiere introduction with Chanson melodies is nice and easy to play. On 17.08.19 21:59, Leonard Williams wrote: > I'm seeking sources for music with renaissance lute accompanying > recorder. Any suggestions are welcome. > Thanks and regards, > Leonard Williams > > -- > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > [2][2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > -- References 1. mailto:[3]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de 2. [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:tristanvonneum...@gmx.de 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 3. mailto:tristanvonneum...@gmx.de 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lute + recorder
Many of the pieces in the Paston lute books are intabulations of polyphonic pieces (motets, movements from masses, madrigals, fantasias), with the superius part left out. The superius part can of course be played on recorder. André Op za 17 aug. 2019 om 22:07 schreef Tristan von Neumann <[1]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de>: Dario Castello comes to mind. At least one of the solo sonatas are available online with tabs. If you play continuo, this is no problem anyway. The Bass line is pretty self explanatory. If you like older stuff: Pierre Attaignant's Tres Breve et familiere introduction with Chanson melodies is nice and easy to play. On 17.08.19 21:59, Leonard Williams wrote: > I'm seeking sources for music with renaissance lute accompanying > recorder. Any suggestions are welcome. > Thanks and regards, > Leonard Williams > > -- > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > -- References 1. mailto:tristanvonneum...@gmx.de 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lute + recorder
I don't know of any major repertoire specifically for recorder and Ren. lute, and I'm not completely familiar with recorder range and registration, but I'd think pretty much any lute song should be adaptable. Check out [1]gerbode.net for more modern editions than you'll know what to do with. In "sources", look for Attaignant and Bossinensis for earlier stuff, in composers Dowland and Campion will get you started on English, for a bit more technicality, take a look at Caccini, and there are worlds more to explore. On Sat, Aug 17, 2019 at 4:10 PM Tristan von Neumann <[2]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de> wrote: Dario Castello comes to mind. At least one of the solo sonatas are available online with tabs. If you play continuo, this is no problem anyway. The Bass line is pretty self explanatory. If you like older stuff: Pierre Attaignant's Tres Breve et familiere introduction with Chanson melodies is nice and easy to play. On 17.08.19 21:59, Leonard Williams wrote: > I'm seeking sources for music with renaissance lute accompanying > recorder. Any suggestions are welcome. > Thanks and regards, > Leonard Williams > > -- > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > -- References 1. http://gerbode.net/ 2. mailto:tristanvonneum...@gmx.de 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lute + recorder
LPM had a series with written out tab parts for lute. But basically, anything polyphonic goes if you can read from the score or are willing to make your own parts from the score. It's a century or more of music up for grabs! David *** David van Ooijen [1]davidvanooi...@gmail.com [2]www.davidvanooijen.nl *** On Sat, 17 Aug 2019 at 22:03, Leonard Williams <[3]arc...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote: I'm seeking sources for music with renaissance lute accompanying recorder. Any suggestions are welcome. Thanks and regards, Leonard Williams -- To get on or off this list see list information at [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 2. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/ 3. mailto:arc...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lute + recorder
Dario Castello comes to mind. At least one of the solo sonatas are available online with tabs. If you play continuo, this is no problem anyway. The Bass line is pretty self explanatory. If you like older stuff: Pierre Attaignant's Tres Breve et familiere introduction with Chanson melodies is nice and easy to play. On 17.08.19 21:59, Leonard Williams wrote: I'm seeking sources for music with renaissance lute accompanying recorder. Any suggestions are welcome. Thanks and regards, Leonard Williams -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lute Iconography Database - full release
Thank you very much Luke ! Much appreciated ! Best, Jean-Marie > Le 17 août 2019 à 12:22, Luke Emmet a écrit : > > Dear lute list > > I'm pleased to announce that the Lute Iconography Database is now fully > released. A previous version had been circulated last year, but it seemed > that some of the attributes had not migrated correctly. > > As you may know the database has been designed and populated by David Van > Edwards over many years, with contributions from others. This original > version was a standalone file for Mac only. My contribution has been to > design a web based solution, convert the data and upload it online. It is a > wonderful resource for lute researchers, makers, scholars and anyone who is > interested in the history or iconography of the lute. > > There are now 2264 images in there. > > For further information see the following links: > > 1. The online database, searchable: > > https://lute-images.myjetbrains.com/youtrack/issues/LI > > 2. The Lute Society summary page describing the resource and its powerful > search engine, and how to contribute new images etc: > > https://www.lutesociety.org/pages/lute-iconography-database > > 3. Some screenshots on my website (but actually using the database is even > better) > > https://www.orlando-lutes.com/pages/lute-iconography-database > > The search engine for the database is very powerful and you can combine the > attributes in interesting ways. For example if you were curious about the > emergence of the 10c lute, you could search for all depictions of 10c lutes, > ordered by date: > > > https://lute-images.myjetbrains.com/youtrack/issues/LI?q=courses:%2010%20sort%20by:%20date%20asc > > Enjoy! > > Best Wishes > > - Luke > > -- > __ > > Orlando Lutes > http://www.orlando-lutes.com > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments
A cent is 1200 times the logarithm to base 2 of a real number. And the reason for those "complicated numbers" is the rather elementary fact that log(3)/log(2) is irrational. By the Gelfond-Schneider theorem it is even transcendental, but this a very deep celebrated theorem proved in 1934 independently by Aleksandr Gelfond and Theodor Schneider. Rainer On 28.07.2019 10:43, Matthew Daillie wrote: That is not true Rainer, they simply say that the use of cents is a relatively modern one and anachronistic for dealing with Renaissance music. It is concomitant with equal temperament (in which a cent = 1/100 of a semitone). Best, Matthew Le 28 juil. 2019 à 10:13, Rainer a écrit : Apparently, they don't have the slightest idea where the concept of cents is coming from. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments
That is not true Rainer, they simply say that the use of cents is a relatively modern one and anachronistic for dealing with Renaissance music. It is concomitant with equal temperament (in which a cent = 1/100 of a semitone). Best, Matthew Le 28 juil. 2019 à 10:13, Rainer a écrit : > Apparently, they don't have the slightest idea where the concept of cents is > coming from. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments
Very entertaining, indeed. Apparently, they don't have the slightest idea where the concept of cents is coming from. Rainer PS What these guys say about "complicated numbers" and computers in part two is - I am afraid to say - bullshit. These guys are mathematical idiots. On 27.07.2019 12:33, Matthew Daillie wrote: An interesting and entertaining introduction to temperaments in the Renaissance (but which does not broach the subject of fretted instruments): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R75unSXKJXQ=youtu.be Some of the other episodes are also relevant to questions of temperament. Best, Matthew To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lute Vocabulary
Hmm. The famous caterpillar gut? Why would they call it lutestring?... Hmmm. On 27.07.19 16:42, Leonard Williams wrote: This is from my 1916 Webster's Collegiate Dictionary: lutestring: n. A plain, stout, lustrous silk, used for dresses and for ribbon. Also, a verb definition of "lute": To play upon the lute; sound like a lute. Leonard Williams -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments
An interesting and entertaining introduction to temperaments in the Renaissance (but which does not broach the subject of fretted instruments): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R75unSXKJXQ=youtu.be Some of the other episodes are also relevant to questions of temperament. Best, Matthew To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments
Ross Duffin wrote a very measured and comprehensive chapter entitled 'Tuning and Temperament' in 'A Performer's Guide to Renaissance Music' (Indiana University Press). He reviews the difficulties of using meantone on fretted instruments (and notably lutes) and discusses the various solutions that can be envisaged. For those of you wishing to listen to the expressive qualities of meantone temperament in the context of chromatic phrases, I would highly recommend Marco Vitale's recording of Sweelinck's Fantasia chromatica played on an original Ruckers spinet virginal dated 1604. Best, Matthew To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments
> On Jul 23, 2019, at 9:07 AM, Alain Veylit wrote: > > I have a practical question : is it common practice for Baroque lute players > to also adjust their frets when they change their diapason tuning? No, it’s common practice to tune the diapasons to the fretted notes if tuning them to G, Ab, Bb, B, C, C#, Eb, E or F#. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments
Never ever. There seem to be people, though, who shift their 4th frets a bit down so as to get something close to the pure major third on the 1st to 6th courses. There's no need at all to do that IMHO as long as the lute is properly tuned. Mathias __ Gesendet mit der [1]Telekom Mail App --- Original-Nachricht --- Von: Alain Veylit Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments Datum: 23.07.2019, 18:07 Uhr An: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu I have a practical question : is it common practice for Baroque lute players to also adjust their frets when they change their diapason tuning? To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. https://kommunikationsdienste.t-online.de/redirects/email_app_android_sendmail_footer 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments
I have a practical question : is it common practice for Baroque lute players to also adjust their frets when they change their diapason tuning? To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments
sometimes even with bagpipes. RT On 7/22/2019 1:59 PM, r.turov...@gmail.com wrote: Citterns play in only 2 keys, and hardly ever with other instruments. so it is not a problem there. RT http://turovsky.org Feci quod potui. Faciant meliora potentes. On Jul 22, 2019, at 10:47 AM, David van Ooijen wrote: Fixed fretted instrument had some sort of MT. Citerns with an approximation 1/6 comma MT come to mind. That's not a modern interpretation or an awkward stretch. on. There survive some historical discussions of lute fretting but the language is unclear or otherwise flawed. A sideways application of modern interpretations of keyboard temperaments to the lute and fretted viol is a bit of an awkward stretch. -- *** David van Ooijen [1]davidvanooi...@gmail.com [2]www.davidvanooijen.nl *** -- References 1. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 2. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments
Some inspiring quotes: "I once had a lute whose frets were loose, and I could play nothing, nothing but the blues ... " (Robert Johnson) "Temperaments are affairs of taste, not affairs of state." (Talleyrand, quoting Rameau quoting Aristotle's lost treatise on music). "Playing a lute with loose frets is to music what driving a car without a steering wheel is to public safety. Highly hazardous." (Public knowledge, and the reason why Volkswagen recalled all its lutes manufactured in 2015). "Loose frets on a lute is why I play the guitar" (Eddie Van Halen) "You need a lot of guts to be playing the lute theses days" (anonymous sheep not wanting to get confused for a cat). "If your frets are in the spot your lute maker told you to put them, don't f---ink move them!", George Carlin. I agree with George, even though sometimes my lute will disagree... From personal experience, the more you move a fret, the more it will move of its own accord, and rarely a graceful one. Alain On 7/22/19 5:01 AM, Ron Andrico wrote: Yes, Howard, I am very good at distilling complex ideas into concise terms, and I am tempted to stop at saying thanks for your laudatory statement, barbs and all. But we dwell in an age that places far too much value on the shaping of public perceptions through subtle language via platforms such as ours, and it will not do to let your accusations stand without remarks. We all approach music from a different perspective and I value the insights and the musical skills of many performers who are and have been on the public stage for many years. What I do not value is the manner in which various players claim authority by stating that their particular approach is the one true way. And I do not value the manner in which a large helping of attitude has been foisted on the public by mavens of marketing in the pursuit of greater notoriety, and thus sales. As lutenists, players of ancient instruments that became outmoded for very good reasons, we do the historical research and eventually come to understand how the machine evolved and how it works best for each of us today as applied to our chosen repertory. Martyn H pointed out, as I have in the past, that all this noise about temperaments really has to do with making keyboard instruments sound less bad in the pursuit of music that contains more intervallic spice as time and taste marched on. There survive some historical discussions of lute fretting but the language is unclear or otherwise flawed. A sideways application of modern interpretations of keyboard temperaments to the lute and fretted viol is a bit of an awkward stretch. As for the lute, the frets move. Move them until the music sounds right. RA __ From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu on behalf of howard posner Sent: Monday, July 22, 2019 2:01 AM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments > On Jul 20, 2019, at 4:22 AM, Ron Andrico wrote: > > musicians who > understand music and who explore the more interesting repertory for > lute follow the precepts of Galilei, which approximates equal > temperament. You just trashed most of the best musicians in early music, and, apparently, most of the best music, in a single sentence. As a person who writes for a living, I can only admire your efficiency with words. To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Virus-free. [2]www.avast.com -- References Visible links: 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 2. https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=webmail_term=link Hidden links: 4. https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=webmail_term=icon 5. file://localhost/net/ifs-users/lute-arc/L25094-236TMP.html#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2
[LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments
There is, however, a solution to the problem: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0akGtDPVRxk On 22.07.19 22:13, Andreas Schlegel wrote: I know: the citation is German. But any translation makes an interpretation and therefore it’s the best to give citations in the original language: Praetorius 1619, Syntagma II, 156–157: NB. Hierbey habe ich auch des Calvisii Meynung de Temperatura Instrumentorum uffzusetzen nicht unterlassen wollen. Das ist gewiß (sagt er) wenn die Consonantiae sollen recht klingen, so müssen sie rein in ihren proportionibus stehen, und weder uberheufft noch geringer werden; Und dasselbige befindet sich also in voce humana, auch in Posaunen und in andern [Blasinstrumenten], welchen man mit menschlichem Athem etwas zugeben oder nemen kan. Denn vox humana [hier nicht das gleichnamige Orgelregister, sondern die menschliche Singstimme] lencket sich natürlich zu der rechten Proportion der Intervallorum, und legets ihnen zu, wo etwas mangeln, oder nimpt weg, wo was uberley seyn solte. Auff den Instrumenten [besaitetete Tasteninstrumente] aber und Orgeln hat es eine andere Meynung, do seynd der Clavier gar zu wenig, darumb muß man allda etlichen Consonantiis etwas nemen, auff daß solches alles nicht auf einem Clave allein mangle. So we have at least two levels: - pure intonation for all instruments which can be played in this manner (and independently from the tuning system of the keyboard instruments!) - keyboard instruments (which have not enough keys to play all the pure intervals) - the fretted instruments are not explicitly mentioned Perhaps it’s just a modern idea that all instrument have to follow the tuning of the keyboard instruments. Perhaps it was just the contrary: All musicians, who were able, played / sung in pure tuning and the damned keyboard and fretted instruments have to play in the best possible compromise. The Renaissance of pure tuning, pythagorean and meantone tunings and all the temperaments was started by keyboard players. In consequence the keyboard is now the dominator of the scene or the rider, but as Praetorius clearly points out, in his time the keyboard was the horse. We changed the parts. A very interesting book is: Ortgies, Ibo: Die Praxis der Orgelstimmung in Norddeutschland im 17. und 18. Jahrhundert und ihr Verhältnis zur zeitgenössischen Musikpraxis, Diss. Göteborg: Göteborgs universitet, Dept. of Musicology and Film Studies, 2004, revidiert 2007. Link: https://sites.google.com/site/iboortgies/Ibo_Ortgies_PhDDiss_complete_IO01.pdf?attredirects=0 <https://sites.google.com/site/iboortgies/Ibo_Ortgies_PhDDiss_complete_IO01.pdf?attredirects=0> All the best Andreas Am 22.07.2019 um 21:41 schrieb Matthew Daillie : Citterns are keyboard instruments and metal strings introduce alternative temperament issues? Gosh, I am learning a lot of alternative facts at the moment. Best, Matthew On Jul 22, 2019, at 21:34, Ron Andrico wrote: David, citterns are strung with wire, which introduces alternative temperament issues and places them more in the class of a keyboard instrument. RA __ From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu on behalf of David van Ooijen Sent: Monday, July 22, 2019 2:47 PM Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments Fixed fretted instrument had some sort of MT. Citerns with an approximation 1/6 comma MT come to mind. That's not a modern interpretation or an awkward stretch. on. There survive some historical discussions of lute fretting but the language is unclear or otherwise flawed. A sideways application of modern interpretations of keyboard temperaments to the lute and fretted viol is a bit of an awkward stretch. -- *** David van Ooijen [1]davidvanooi...@gmail.com [2]www.davidvanooijen.nl *** -- References 1. [1]mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 2. [2]http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/ To get on or off this list see list information at [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Virus-free. [4]www.avast.com -- References Visible links: 1. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 2. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/ 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 4. https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=webmail_term=link Hidden links: 6. https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=webmail_term=icon 7. file://localhost/net/ifs-users/lute-arc/L16092-349TMP.html#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2 --
[LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments
Dear all, I hope I haven't missed anyone's mention of Bardi, but he apparently witnessed the problem discussed here âand more than once Iâve felt like laughing when I saw musicians struggling to put a lute or a viol into proper tune with a keyboard..." My own personal experience is that it can however work very well with mean tone tuning without tastini, but it requires some rethinking. Having different semitones on the on the first and forth frets can imo be very useful when playing basso continuo on the theorbo. Best, Magnus [1]Skickat frÃÂ¥n Yahoo Mail för iPhone Den mÃÂ¥ndag, juli 22, 2019, 10:30 em, skrev Leonard Williams : I'm coming late to the discussion; perhaps an interesting read for some of us would be Adam Wead's dissertation titled "Lute Tuning and Temperament in the Sixteenth and Seventeenth Centuries". Here, I believe, is the link: [2]https://scholarworks.iu.edu/dspace/bitstream/handle/2022/18424/Wead% 2C% 20Adam%20%28DM%20EMI%29.pdf?sequence=1=y He compares several period methods of fret-setting, including Dowland (mistakes noted) and Gerle. Leonard Williams -- To get on or off this list see list information at [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. https://overview.mail.yahoo.com/?.src=iOS 2. https://scholarworks.iu.edu/dspace/bitstream/handle/2022/18424/Wead,% 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments
I'm coming late to the discussion; perhaps an interesting read for some of us would be Adam Wead's dissertation titled "Lute Tuning and Temperament in the Sixteenth and Seventeenth Centuries". Here, I believe, is the link: https://scholarworks.iu.edu/dspace/bitstream/handle/2022/18424/Wead%2C% 20Adam%20%28DM%20EMI%29.pdf?sequence=1=y He compares several period methods of fret-setting, including Dowland (mistakes noted) and Gerle. Leonard Williams -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments
I quoted your words so any reader could tell whether I was distorting your meaning. And whatever I was doing, it wasn’t a “syllogism,” which is defined as "a form of reasoning in which a conclusion is drawn (whether validly or not) from two given or assumed propositions (premises), each of which shares a term with the conclusion, and shares a common or middle term not present in the conclusion” for example: All keyboard instruments have keys. Citterns have no keys. Therefore, citterns are "more in the class of a keyboard instrument.” But you’re absolutely right: I need to go back to work. > On Jul 22, 2019, at 12:32 PM, Ron Andrico wrote: > > Sorry Howard, but you employed a faulty syllogism contrived by altering and > amending my words, a typical lawyerly device. I did not state that following > Galilei's precepts is the one true way. I said that musicians who understand > music and wish to explore the more interesting repertory temper their > instrument according to Galilei's precepts. I stand by my words as I > originally stated. No subtlety. No spin. Go back to work. > > From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu on behalf of > howard posner > Sent: Monday, July 22, 2019 5:36 PM > To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments > > > On Jul 22, 2019, at 5:01 AM, Ron Andrico wrote: > > > > I am very good at distilling complex ideas into concise terms . . . > > What I do not value is the manner in which various players claim authority > > by stating that their particular approach is the one true way. > > But you’re the one who just wrote: > > > musicians who > > understand music and who explore the more interesting repertory for > > lute follow the precepts of Galilei, which approximates equal > > temperament. > > > If there’s a difference between “tuning according to the precepts of > Vincentio Galilei is the one true way” and “musicians who don’t tune > according to the precepts of Vincentio Galilei don’t understand music,” it’s > a subtlety lost on someone who hasn’t your genius for distinguishing complex > ideas from contradictory ones. > > > > > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > Virus-free. www.avast.com
[LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments
So you don't alter the tuning of the open strings on your lute when changing temperaments? No wonder you don't like meantone. Best, Matthew > On Jul 22, 2019, at 21:55, Ron Andrico wrote: > > It's even worse when a guitarist has to tune to a keyboard or an accordion in > ensemble because that means open strings have to be altered. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments
I know: the citation is German. But any translation makes an interpretation and therefore itâs the best to give citations in the original language: Praetorius 1619, Syntagma II, 156â157: NB. Hierbey habe ich auch des Calvisii Meynung de Temperatura Instrumentorum uffzusetzen nicht unterlassen wollen. Das ist gewià (sagt er) wenn die Consonantiae sollen recht klingen, so muÌssen sie rein in ihren proportionibus stehen, und weder uberheufft noch geringer werden; Und dasselbige befindet sich also in voce humana, auch in Posaunen und in andern [Blasinstrumenten], welchen man mit menschlichem Athem etwas zugeben oder nemen kan. Denn vox humana [hier nicht das gleichnamige Orgelregister, sondern die menschliche Singstimme] lencket sich natuÌrlich zu der rechten Proportion der Intervallorum, und legets ihnen zu, wo etwas mangeln, oder nimpt weg, wo was uberley seyn solte. Auff den Instrumenten [besaitetete Tasteninstrumente] aber und Orgeln hat es eine andere Meynung, do seynd der Clavier gar zu wenig, darumb muà man allda etlichen Consonantiis etwas nemen, auff daà solches alles nicht auf einem Clave allein mangle. So we have at least two levels: - pure intonation for all instruments which can be played in this manner (and independently from the tuning system of the keyboard instruments!) - keyboard instruments (which have not enough keys to play all the pure intervals) - the fretted instruments are not explicitly mentioned Perhaps itâs just a modern idea that all instrument have to follow the tuning of the keyboard instruments. Perhaps it was just the contrary: All musicians, who were able, played / sung in pure tuning and the damned keyboard and fretted instruments have to play in the best possible compromise. The Renaissance of pure tuning, pythagorean and meantone tunings and all the temperaments was started by keyboard players. In consequence the keyboard is now the dominator of the scene or the rider, but as Praetorius clearly points out, in his time the keyboard was the horse. We changed the parts. A very interesting book is: Ortgies, Ibo: Die Praxis der Orgelstimmung in Norddeutschland im 17. und 18. Jahrhundert und ihr Verhältnis zur zeitgenössischen Musikpraxis, Diss. Göteborg: Göteborgs universitet, Dept. of Musicology and Film Studies, 2004, revidiert 2007. Link: https://sites.google.com/site/iboortgies/Ibo_Ortgies_PhDDiss_complete_IO01.pdf?attredirects=0 <https://sites.google.com/site/iboortgies/Ibo_Ortgies_PhDDiss_complete_IO01.pdf?attredirects=0> All the best Andreas > Am 22.07.2019 um 21:41 schrieb Matthew Daillie : > > Citterns are keyboard instruments and metal strings introduce alternative > temperament issues? Gosh, I am learning a lot of alternative facts at the > moment. > Best, > Matthew > > > >> On Jul 22, 2019, at 21:34, Ron Andrico wrote: >> >> David, citterns are strung with wire, which introduces alternative >> temperament issues and places them more in the class of a keyboard >> instrument. >> >> RA >>__ >> >> From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu on behalf >> of David van Ooijen >> Sent: Monday, July 22, 2019 2:47 PM >> Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu >> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments >> >> Fixed fretted instrument had some sort of MT. Citerns with an >> approximation 1/6 comma MT come to mind. That's not a modern >> interpretation or an awkward stretch. >>> >>> on. There survive some historical discussions of lute >> fretting but the >>> language is unclear or otherwise flawed. A sideways >> application of >>> modern interpretations of keyboard temperaments to the lute >> and >> fretted >>> viol is a bit of an awkward stretch. >> -- >> *** >> David van Ooijen >> [1]davidvanooi...@gmail.com >> [2]www.davidvanooijen.nl >> *** >> -- >> References >> 1. [1]mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com >> 2. [2]http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/ >> To get on or off this list see list information at >> [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >> >> Virus-free. [4]www.avast.com >> >> -- >> >> References >> >> Visible links: >> 1. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com >> 2. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/ >> 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >> 4. >> https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=webmail_term=link >> >> Hidden links: >> 6. >> https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=webmail_term=icon >> 7. >> file://localhost/net/ifs-users/lute-arc/L16092-349TMP.html#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2 > > --
[LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments
Having played all manner of ensemble music, including cittern in consort, for upwards of forty years, yes, I agree. And in such cases, lute players, who have more flexibility, must shove their moveable frets around to arrive at a reasonably tempered scale, hopefully using their ears. It's even worse when a guitarist has to tune to a keyboard or an accordion in ensemble because that means open strings have to be altered. The math is interesting but the ears are necessary. RA __ From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu on behalf of David van Ooijen Sent: Monday, July 22, 2019 7:39 PM Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments My point was they were played in consort with lutes, which has consequences for the temperament of the lutes. Same is true for the wind and keyboard instruments in l'Orfeo or the Maria Vespers. Lutes are not solo instruments only, when they go out in the world and meet their fellow instruments, they'll have to adapt. Or play out of tune/temperament. David On Mon, 22 Jul 2019 at 21:34, Ron Andrico <[1]praelu...@hotmail.com> wrote: David, citterns are strung with wire, which introduces alternative temperament issues and places them more in the class of a keyboard instrument. RA __ From: [2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu <[3]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu> on behalf of David van Ooijen <[4]davidvanooi...@gmail.com> Sent: Monday, July 22, 2019 2:47 PM Cc: [5]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu <[6]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments Fixed fretted instrument had some sort of MT. Citerns with an approximation 1/6 comma MT come to mind. That's not a modern interpretation or an awkward stretch. > > on. There survive some historical discussions of lute fretting but the > language is unclear or otherwise flawed. A sideways application of > modern interpretations of keyboard temperaments to the lute and fretted > viol is a bit of an awkward stretch. -- *** David van Ooijen [1][7]davidvanooi...@gmail.com [2][8]www.davidvanooijen.nl *** -- References 1. [9]mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 2. [10]http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/ To get on or off this list see list information at [11]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Virus-free. [12]www.avast.com -- *** David van Ooijen [13]davidvanooi...@gmail.com [14]www.davidvanooijen.nl *** -- References Visible links: 1. [1]mailto:praelu...@hotmail.com 2. [2]mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. [3]mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 4. [4]mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 5. [5]mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 6. [6]mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 7. [7]mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 8. [8]http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/ 9. [9]mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 10. [10]http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/ 11. [11]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 12. [12]https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email_source=link m_campaign=sig-email_content=webmail_term=link 13. [13]mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 14. [14]http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/ Hidden links: 16. [15]https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email_source=link m_campaign=sig-email_content=webmail_term=icon 17. [16]file://localhost/net/ifs-users/lute-arc/L21479-7619TMP.html#m_63274 39462815053038_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2 -- References 1. mailto:praelu...@hotmail.com 2. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 4. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 5. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 6. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 7. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 8. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/ 9. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 10. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/ 11. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 12. https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=webmail_term=link 13. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 14. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/ 15. https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=webmail_term=icon 16. file:///net/ifs-users/lute-arc/L21479-7619TMP.html#m_6327439462815053038_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2
[LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments
Citterns are keyboard instruments and metal strings introduce alternative temperament issues? Gosh, I am learning a lot of alternative facts at the moment. Best, Matthew > On Jul 22, 2019, at 21:34, Ron Andrico wrote: > > David, citterns are strung with wire, which introduces alternative > temperament issues and places them more in the class of a keyboard > instrument. > > RA > __ > > From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu on behalf > of David van Ooijen > Sent: Monday, July 22, 2019 2:47 PM > Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments > > Fixed fretted instrument had some sort of MT. Citerns with an > approximation 1/6 comma MT come to mind. That's not a modern > interpretation or an awkward stretch. >> >> on. There survive some historical discussions of lute >fretting but the >> language is unclear or otherwise flawed. A sideways >application of >> modern interpretations of keyboard temperaments to the lute > and >fretted >> viol is a bit of an awkward stretch. > -- > *** > David van Ooijen > [1]davidvanooi...@gmail.com > [2]www.davidvanooijen.nl > *** > -- > References > 1. [1]mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com > 2. [2]http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/ > To get on or off this list see list information at > [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > Virus-free. [4]www.avast.com > > -- > > References > > Visible links: > 1. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com > 2. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/ > 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > 4. > https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=webmail_term=link > > Hidden links: > 6. > https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=webmail_term=icon > 7. > file://localhost/net/ifs-users/lute-arc/L16092-349TMP.html#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2
[LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments
My point was they were played in consort with lutes, which has consequences for the temperament of the lutes. Same is true for the wind and keyboard instruments in l'Orfeo or the Maria Vespers. Lutes are not solo instruments only, when they go out in the world and meet their fellow instruments, they'll have to adapt. Or play out of tune/temperament. David On Mon, 22 Jul 2019 at 21:34, Ron Andrico <[1]praelu...@hotmail.com> wrote: David, citterns are strung with wire, which introduces alternative temperament issues and places them more in the class of a keyboard instrument. RA __ From: [2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu <[3]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu> on behalf of David van Ooijen <[4]davidvanooi...@gmail.com> Sent: Monday, July 22, 2019 2:47 PM Cc: [5]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu <[6]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments Fixed fretted instrument had some sort of MT. Citerns with an approximation 1/6 comma MT come to mind. That's not a modern interpretation or an awkward stretch. > > on. There survive some historical discussions of lute fretting but the > language is unclear or otherwise flawed. A sideways application of > modern interpretations of keyboard temperaments to the lute and fretted > viol is a bit of an awkward stretch. -- *** David van Ooijen [1][7]davidvanooi...@gmail.com [2][8]www.davidvanooijen.nl *** -- References 1. [9]mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 2. [10]http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/ To get on or off this list see list information at [11]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Virus-free. [12]www.avast.com -- *** David van Ooijen [13]davidvanooi...@gmail.com [14]www.davidvanooijen.nl *** -- References Visible links: 1. mailto:praelu...@hotmail.com 2. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 4. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 5. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 6. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 7. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 8. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/ 9. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 10. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/ 11. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 12. https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=webmail_term=link 13. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 14. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/ Hidden links: 16. https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=webmail_term=icon 17. file://localhost/net/ifs-users/lute-arc/L21479-7619TMP.html#m_6327439462815053038_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2
[LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments
David, citterns are strung with wire, which introduces alternative temperament issues and places them more in the class of a keyboard instrument. RA __ From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu on behalf of David van Ooijen Sent: Monday, July 22, 2019 2:47 PM Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments Fixed fretted instrument had some sort of MT. Citerns with an approximation 1/6 comma MT come to mind. That's not a modern interpretation or an awkward stretch. > >on. There survive some historical discussions of lute fretting but the >language is unclear or otherwise flawed. A sideways application of >modern interpretations of keyboard temperaments to the lute and fretted >viol is a bit of an awkward stretch. -- *** David van Ooijen [1]davidvanooi...@gmail.com [2]www.davidvanooijen.nl *** -- References 1. [1]mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 2. [2]http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/ To get on or off this list see list information at [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Virus-free. [4]www.avast.com -- References Visible links: 1. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 2. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/ 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 4. https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=webmail_term=link Hidden links: 6. https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=webmail_term=icon 7. file://localhost/net/ifs-users/lute-arc/L16092-349TMP.html#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2
[LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments
Sorry Howard, but you employed a faulty syllogism contrived by altering and amending my words, a typical lawyerly device. I did not state that following Galilei's precepts is the one true way. I said that musicians who understand music and wish to explore the more interesting repertory temper their instrument according to Galilei's precepts. I stand by my words as I originally stated. No subtlety. No spin. Go back to work. __ From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu on behalf of howard posner Sent: Monday, July 22, 2019 5:36 PM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments > On Jul 22, 2019, at 5:01 AM, Ron Andrico wrote: > > I am very good at distilling complex ideas into concise terms . . . > What I do not value is the manner in which various players claim authority by stating that their particular approach is the one true way. But youâre the one who just wrote: > musicians who > understand music and who explore the more interesting repertory for > lute follow the precepts of Galilei, which approximates equal > temperament. If thereâs a difference between âtuning according to the precepts of Vincentio Galilei is the one true wayâ and âmusicians who donât tune according to the precepts of Vincentio Galilei donât understand music,â itâs a subtlety lost on someone who hasnât your genius for distinguishing complex ideas from contradictory ones. To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Virus-free. [2]www.avast.com -- References Visible links: 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 2. https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=webmail_term=link Hidden links: 4. https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=webmail_term=icon 5. file://localhost/net/ifs-users/lute-arc/L14548-9033TMP.html#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2
[LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments
That's why I am usually quiet. Better say nothing and left the others
with the doubt you are dumb than speak out and make them sure you are
dumb indeed :-):-)
Messaggio originale
Da: David van Ooijen
Data: 22/07/19 20:13 (GMT+01:00)
A:
Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Oggetto: [LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments
Citterns play in broken consort with lutes. Been there, done that.
Temperament, not to mention tuning, certainly is an issue.
It's nice for members to speak out on subjects, it's even better
when
they do so on subjects they have some experience with.
David
On Mon, 22 Jul 2019 at 20:04, <[1]r.turov...@gmail.com> wrote:
Citterns play in only 2 keys, and hardly ever with other
instruments.
so it is not a problem there.
RT
[2]http://turovsky.org
Feci quod potui. Faciant meliora potentes.
> On Jul 22, 2019, at 10:47 AM, David van Ooijen
<[3]davidvanooi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>Fixed fretted instrument had some sort of MT. Citerns with an
>approximation 1/6 comma MT come to mind. That's not a modern
>interpretation or an awkward stretch.
>
>>
>>on.There survive some historical discussions of lute
> fretting but the
>>language is unclear or otherwise flawed.A sideways
> application of
>>modern interpretations of keyboard temperaments to the lute
and
> fretted
>>viol is a bit of an awkward stretch.
>
>--
>
>***
>David van Ooijen
>[1][4]davidvanooi...@gmail.com
>[2][5]www.davidvanooijen.nl
>***
>
>--
>
> References
>
>1. mailto:[6]davidvanooi...@gmail.com
>2. [7]http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/
>
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> [8]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
--
***
David van Ooijen
[9]davidvanooi...@gmail.com
[10]www.davidvanooijen.nl
***
--
References
1. mailto:r.turov...@gmail.com
2. http://turovsky.org/
3. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com
4. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com
5. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/
6. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com
7. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/
8. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
9. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com
10. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/
[LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments
Citterns play in broken consort with lutes. Been there, done that. Temperament, not to mention tuning, certainly is an issue. It's nice for members to speak out on subjects, it's even better when they do so on subjects they have some experience with. David On Mon, 22 Jul 2019 at 20:04, <[1]r.turov...@gmail.com> wrote: Citterns play in only 2 keys, and hardly ever with other instruments. so it is not a problem there. RT [2]http://turovsky.org Feci quod potui. Faciant meliora potentes. > On Jul 22, 2019, at 10:47 AM, David van Ooijen <[3]davidvanooi...@gmail.com> wrote: > >Fixed fretted instrument had some sort of MT. Citerns with an >approximation 1/6 comma MT come to mind. That's not a modern >interpretation or an awkward stretch. > >> >>on.There survive some historical discussions of lute > fretting but the >>language is unclear or otherwise flawed.A sideways > application of >>modern interpretations of keyboard temperaments to the lute and > fretted >>viol is a bit of an awkward stretch. > >-- > >*** >David van Ooijen >[1][4]davidvanooi...@gmail.com >[2][5]www.davidvanooijen.nl >*** > >-- > > References > >1. mailto:[6]davidvanooi...@gmail.com >2. [7]http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/ > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > [8]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- *** David van Ooijen [9]davidvanooi...@gmail.com [10]www.davidvanooijen.nl *** -- References 1. mailto:r.turov...@gmail.com 2. http://turovsky.org/ 3. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 4. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 5. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/ 6. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 7. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/ 8. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 9. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 10. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/
[LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments
Hardly ever?... In paintings, there's often other instruments... And what about Orpharion? It also has fixed frets... On 22.07.19 19:59, r.turov...@gmail.com wrote: Citterns play in only 2 keys, and hardly ever with other instruments. so it is not a problem there. RT http://turovsky.org Feci quod potui. Faciant meliora potentes. On Jul 22, 2019, at 10:47 AM, David van Ooijen wrote: Fixed fretted instrument had some sort of MT. Citerns with an approximation 1/6 comma MT come to mind. That's not a modern interpretation or an awkward stretch. on. There survive some historical discussions of lute fretting but the language is unclear or otherwise flawed. A sideways application of modern interpretations of keyboard temperaments to the lute and fretted viol is a bit of an awkward stretch. -- *** David van Ooijen [1]davidvanooi...@gmail.com [2]www.davidvanooijen.nl *** -- References 1. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 2. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments
I reckon that there's also different lutist temperaments. Let's not use mean tone though :) On 22.07.19 19:36, howard posner wrote: On Jul 22, 2019, at 5:01 AM, Ron Andrico wrote: I am very good at distilling complex ideas into concise terms . . . What I do not value is the manner in which various players claim authority by stating that their particular approach is the one true way. But you’re the one who just wrote: musicians who understand music and who explore the more interesting repertory for lute follow the precepts of Galilei, which approximates equal temperament. If there’s a difference between “tuning according to the precepts of Vincentio Galilei is the one true way” and “musicians who don’t tune according to the precepts of Vincentio Galilei don’t understand music,” it’s a subtlety lost on someone who hasn’t your genius for distinguishing complex ideas from contradictory ones. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments
Citterns play in only 2 keys, and hardly ever with other instruments. so it is not a problem there. RT http://turovsky.org Feci quod potui. Faciant meliora potentes. > On Jul 22, 2019, at 10:47 AM, David van Ooijen > wrote: > > Fixed fretted instrument had some sort of MT. Citerns with an > approximation 1/6 comma MT come to mind. That's not a modern > interpretation or an awkward stretch. > >> >> on. There survive some historical discussions of lute > fretting but the >> language is unclear or otherwise flawed. A sideways > application of >> modern interpretations of keyboard temperaments to the lute and > fretted >> viol is a bit of an awkward stretch. > > -- > > *** > David van Ooijen > [1]davidvanooi...@gmail.com > [2]www.davidvanooijen.nl > *** > > -- > > References > > 1. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com > 2. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/ > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments
> On Jul 22, 2019, at 5:01 AM, Ron Andrico wrote: > > I am very good at distilling complex ideas into concise terms . . . > What I do not value is the manner in which various players claim authority by > stating that their particular approach is the one true way. But you’re the one who just wrote: > musicians who > understand music and who explore the more interesting repertory for > lute follow the precepts of Galilei, which approximates equal > temperament. If there’s a difference between “tuning according to the precepts of Vincentio Galilei is the one true way” and “musicians who don’t tune according to the precepts of Vincentio Galilei don’t understand music,” it’s a subtlety lost on someone who hasn’t your genius for distinguishing complex ideas from contradictory ones. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments
Fixed fretted instrument had some sort of MT. Citerns with an approximation 1/6 comma MT come to mind. That's not a modern interpretation or an awkward stretch. > >on. There survive some historical discussions of lute fretting but the >language is unclear or otherwise flawed. A sideways application of >modern interpretations of keyboard temperaments to the lute and fretted >viol is a bit of an awkward stretch. -- *** David van Ooijen [1]davidvanooi...@gmail.com [2]www.davidvanooijen.nl *** -- References 1. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 2. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments
Ditto ! Thanks Ron ! Jean-Marie Poirier > Le 22 juil. 2019 à 14:01, Ron Andrico a écrit : > > Yes, Howard, I am very good at distilling complex ideas into concise > terms, and I am tempted to stop at saying thanks for your laudatory > statement, barbs and all. But we dwell in an age that places far too > much value on the shaping of public perceptions through subtle language > via platforms such as ours, and it will not do to let your accusations > stand without remarks. > We all approach music from a different perspective and I value the > insights and the musical skills of many performers who are and have > been on the public stage for many years. What I do not value is the > manner in which various players claim authority by stating that their > particular approach is the one true way. And I do not value the manner > in which a large helping of attitude has been foisted on the public by > mavens of marketing in the pursuit of greater notoriety, and thus > sales. > As lutenists, players of ancient instruments that became outmoded for > very good reasons, we do the historical research and eventually come to > understand how the machine evolved and how it works best for each of us > today as applied to our chosen repertory. Martyn H pointed out, as I > have in the past, that all this noise about temperaments really has to > do with making keyboard instruments sound less bad in the pursuit of > music that contains more intervallic spice as time and taste marched > on. There survive some historical discussions of lute fretting but the > language is unclear or otherwise flawed. A sideways application of > modern interpretations of keyboard temperaments to the lute and fretted > viol is a bit of an awkward stretch. > As for the lute, the frets move. Move them until the music sounds > right. > RA > __ > > From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu on behalf > of howard posner > Sent: Monday, July 22, 2019 2:01 AM > To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments > >> On Jul 20, 2019, at 4:22 AM, Ron Andrico > wrote: >> >> musicians who >> understand music and who explore the more interesting repertory for >> lute follow the precepts of Galilei, which approximates equal >> temperament. > You just trashed most of the best musicians in early music, and, > apparently, most of the best music, in a single sentence. As a person > who writes for a living, I can only admire your efficiency with words. > To get on or off this list see list information at > [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > Virus-free. [2]www.avast.com > > -- > > References > > Visible links: > 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > 2. > https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=webmail_term=link > > Hidden links: > 4. > https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=webmail_term=icon > 5. > file://localhost/net/ifs-users/lute-arc/L25094-236TMP.html#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2 >
[LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments
Yes, Howard, I am very good at distilling complex ideas into concise terms, and I am tempted to stop at saying thanks for your laudatory statement, barbs and all. But we dwell in an age that places far too much value on the shaping of public perceptions through subtle language via platforms such as ours, and it will not do to let your accusations stand without remarks. We all approach music from a different perspective and I value the insights and the musical skills of many performers who are and have been on the public stage for many years. What I do not value is the manner in which various players claim authority by stating that their particular approach is the one true way. And I do not value the manner in which a large helping of attitude has been foisted on the public by mavens of marketing in the pursuit of greater notoriety, and thus sales. As lutenists, players of ancient instruments that became outmoded for very good reasons, we do the historical research and eventually come to understand how the machine evolved and how it works best for each of us today as applied to our chosen repertory. Martyn H pointed out, as I have in the past, that all this noise about temperaments really has to do with making keyboard instruments sound less bad in the pursuit of music that contains more intervallic spice as time and taste marched on. There survive some historical discussions of lute fretting but the language is unclear or otherwise flawed. A sideways application of modern interpretations of keyboard temperaments to the lute and fretted viol is a bit of an awkward stretch. As for the lute, the frets move. Move them until the music sounds right. RA __ From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu on behalf of howard posner Sent: Monday, July 22, 2019 2:01 AM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments > On Jul 20, 2019, at 4:22 AM, Ron Andrico wrote: > > musicians who > understand music and who explore the more interesting repertory for > lute follow the precepts of Galilei, which approximates equal > temperament. You just trashed most of the best musicians in early music, and, apparently, most of the best music, in a single sentence. As a person who writes for a living, I can only admire your efficiency with words. To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Virus-free. [2]www.avast.com -- References Visible links: 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 2. https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=webmail_term=link Hidden links: 4. https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=webmail_term=icon 5. file://localhost/net/ifs-users/lute-arc/L25094-236TMP.html#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2
[LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments
For those of you who are looking for help experimenting with meantone and other temperaments, David van Ooijen's webpage is a very good starting point: https://davidvanooijen.wordpress.com/mean-tone-temperament-for-lute/ Best, Matthew Le 21 juil. 2019 à 17:34, David van Ooijen a écrit : > The beauty of MT is that each key has it's own character. I've played > l'Orfeo 30 times. 30 Times in MT. I've lost count of the times I've > played Monteverdi's Maria Vespers (over one hundred times, anyway) all > in MT. > > David > > On Sun, 21 Jul 2019 at 17:21, <[1]r.turov...@gmail.com> wrote: > > So - I took a quick look: l'Orfeo starts in C and goes through a, d, > F, g, G, Bb, c and even f. > A separate theorbo for each key change, I suppose!)) > RT > To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments
> On Jul 20, 2019, at 4:22 AM, Ron Andrico wrote: > > musicians who > understand music and who explore the more interesting repertory for > lute follow the precepts of Galilei, which approximates equal > temperament. You just trashed most of the best musicians in early music, and, apparently, most of the best music, in a single sentence. As a person who writes for a living, I can only admire your efficiency with words. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments
Not all tastes are created equal. RT Sent from my iPhone > On Jul 20, 2019, at 11:34 AM, Tristan von Neumann > wrote: > > Roman, "insufferable" temperament does not exist. > > All temperaments are an acquired taste - otherwise you would (and some > people surely did) think the music of Arabia insufferable with its 3/4 > tones. > > Or Gamelan ensembles consisting of instruments left to rot and detune > deliberately because it reflects the age of the instrument. > > > > > >> On 20.07.19 16:45, r.turov...@gmail.com wrote: >> It is a lot more harrowing to hear the minor 3rds that are too wide, >> resulting from various masochistic temperaments. >> >> And the use of the latter in music that contains chromaticism is simply >> insufferable. >> RT >> >> >> http://turovsky.org >> Feci quod potui. Faciant meliora potentes. >> >>> On Jul 20, 2019, at 10:28 AM, Matthew Daillie >>> wrote: >>> >>> It has been well-documented that the instructions published by Robert >>> Dowland in the Varietie of Lute Lessons are critically flawed (see Lindley >>> pp. 81-83). >>> >>> It is highly probable that something close to equal temperament was used >>> during the renaissance period but so were several variants of meantone >>> temperament. The latter favours pure major thirds and creates major and >>> minor semitones with far more character than equal temperament, notably for >>> the many chromatic passages prevalent in renaissance music. I think a >>> deeper understanding of temperaments is a prerequisite for playing early >>> music and much can be learned by looking at how other instruments were >>> tuned. 1/4 comma meantone was clearly used on early keyboards and it would >>> be pretty unthinkable today to listen to a performance of 16th century >>> Italian music or the English virginalists in equal temperament (obviously >>> as we move into the baroque period, circulating temperaments were adopted >>> that favoured purer fifths rather than pure major thirds). >>> >>> When one gets used to playing a piece in 1/4 comma meantone with its pure, >>> beatless major thirds, it can be quite a harrowing experience to go back to >>> equal temperament as one is conscious of just how much crucial intervals >>> beat and everything appears to be out of tune. It is not necessarily easy >>> to adapt meantone successfully to the lute, but it can be done with time >>> and careful adjustments of frets and the addition of tastini. 1/5 comma >>> meantone is quite popular amongst major lutenists and although the thirds >>> are no longer pure, it does impart far more character than equal >>> temperament and does not require such extreme fret placement (which can be >>> particularly uncomfortable on the short string length of a lute in a', for >>> example). If one has access to an early keyboard and the help of an >>> experienced player, it can be easier to appreciate the fundamentals of >>> various temperaments than on the lute (metal strings facilitate the >>> detection of beatless intervals). >>> >>> Rather than being a daunting prospect, the use of meantone temperaments on >>> the lute can add further enjoyment to one's playing and enrich our musical >>> world. >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Matthew >>> >>> Le 20 juil. 2019 à 13:22, Ron Andrico a écrit : Tristan, the various alternative temperaments may sound nice for a narrow repertory with the excepted odd note, but musicians who understand music and who explore the more interesting repertory for lute follow the precepts of Galilei, which approximates equal temperament. RA __ From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu on behalf of Tristan von Neumann Sent: Friday, July 19, 2019 4:04 PM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Lute Temperaments I know this is a wide topic... Today, I changed my fret setup from Gerle to Dowland (Thanks to Mr. Niskanen and his marvellous calculator), because I mostly play later 16th century music. It sounds somewhat "brighter" in the keys preferred then. Maybe I will also try what Galilei recommended. Which one did you try and which one do you prefer (for solo playing). What are your thoughts on character vs. versatility? To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >>> >>> >> >> > >
[LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments
Damned be Pythagoras for inventing the comma!
Without it, music would sound so great!
On 20.07.19 21:15, r.turov...@gmail.com wrote:
The diluted minor thirds dilute music in general.
RT
http://turovsky.org
Feci quod potui. Faciant meliora potentes.
On Jul 20, 2019, at 2:40 PM, tribioli wrote:
But major thirds are absolutely better, so...
FT
Messaggio originale
Da: Roman Turovsky
Data: 20/07/19 19:54 (GMT+01:00)
A: Matthew Daillie , "lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
list"
Oggetto: [LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments
Minor thirds get compromised, so
RT
On 7/20/2019 12:55 PM, Matthew Daillie wrote:
??
Le 20 juil. 2019 à 18:45, Roman Turovsky a
écrit :
I'm referring to the minor thirds in MT that that nauseously sound
more neutral than minor.
RT
To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments
The diluted minor thirds dilute music in general. RT http://turovsky.org Feci quod potui. Faciant meliora potentes. > On Jul 20, 2019, at 2:40 PM, tribioli wrote: > > But major thirds are absolutely better, so... > > FT > > Messaggio originale > Da: Roman Turovsky > Data: 20/07/19 19:54 (GMT+01:00) > A: Matthew Daillie , "lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > list" > Oggetto: [LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments > > Minor thirds get compromised, so > RT >> On 7/20/2019 12:55 PM, Matthew Daillie wrote: >> ?? >> >> Le 20 juil. 2019 à 18:45, Roman Turovsky a > écrit : >> >>> I'm referring to the minor thirds in MT that that nauseously sound > more neutral than minor. >>> RT >>> >> >> >> >> To get on or off this list see list information at >> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >
[LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments
But major thirds are absolutely better, so...
FT
Messaggio originale
Da: Roman Turovsky
Data: 20/07/19 19:54 (GMT+01:00)
A: Matthew Daillie , "lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
list"
Oggetto: [LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments
Minor thirds get compromised, so
RT
On 7/20/2019 12:55 PM, Matthew Daillie wrote:
> ??
>
> Le 20 juil. 2019 Ã 18:45, Roman Turovsky a
écrit :
>
>> I'm referring to the minor thirds in MT that that nauseously sound
more neutral than minor.
>> RT
>>
>
>
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments
Minor thirds get compromised, so RT On 7/20/2019 12:55 PM, Matthew Daillie wrote: ?? Le 20 juil. 2019 à 18:45, Roman Turovsky a écrit : I'm referring to the minor thirds in MT that that nauseously sound more neutral than minor. RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments
?? Le 20 juil. 2019 à 18:45, Roman Turovsky a écrit : > I'm referring to the minor thirds in MT that that nauseously sound more > neutral than minor. > RT > To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments
I'm referring to the minor thirds in MT that that nauseously sound more neutral than minor. RT On 7/20/2019 12:35 PM, Matthew Daillie wrote: Yes, there are minor thirds in 1/4 comma meantone that are wider than in equal temperament and so closer to pure (they beat less)! Minor thirds in equal temperament are more than 15 cents narrower than pure. Maybe you were referring to augmented seconds (in meantone, enharmonic accidentals are no longer the same). Obviously one has to choose between, say, a D# and an Eb (unless you have a keyboard with split accidentals). Best, Matthew Le 20 juil. 2019 à 16:45, r.turov...@gmail.com a écrit : It is a lot more harrowing to hear the minor 3rds that are too wide, resulting from various masochistic temperaments. And the use of the latter in music that contains chromaticism is simply insufferable. RT http://turovsky.org Feci quod potui. Faciant meliora potentes. On Jul 20, 2019, at 10:28 AM, Matthew Daillie wrote: It has been well-documented that the instructions published by Robert Dowland in the Varietie of Lute Lessons are critically flawed (see Lindley pp. 81-83). It is highly probable that something close to equal temperament was used during the renaissance period but so were several variants of meantone temperament. The latter favours pure major thirds and creates major and minor semitones with far more character than equal temperament, notably for the many chromatic passages prevalent in renaissance music. I think a deeper understanding of temperaments is a prerequisite for playing early music and much can be learned by looking at how other instruments were tuned. 1/4 comma meantone was clearly used on early keyboards and it would be pretty unthinkable today to listen to a performance of 16th century Italian music or the English virginalists in equal temperament (obviously as we move into the baroque period, circulating temperaments were adopted that favoured purer fifths rather than pure major thirds). When one gets used to playing a piece in 1/4 comma meantone with its pure, beatless major thirds, it can be quite a harrowing experience to go back to equal temperament as one is conscious of just how much crucial intervals beat and everything appears to be out of tune. It is not necessarily easy to adapt meantone successfully to the lute, but it can be done with time and careful adjustments of frets and the addition of tastini. 1/5 comma meantone is quite popular amongst major lutenists and although the thirds are no longer pure, it does impart far more character than equal temperament and does not require such extreme fret placement (which can be particularly uncomfortable on the short string length of a lute in a', for example). If one has access to an early keyboard and the help of an experienced player, it can be easier to appreciate the fundamentals of various temperaments than on the lute (metal strings facilitate the detection of beatless intervals). Rather than being a daunting prospect, the use of meantone temperaments on the lute can add further enjoyment to one's playing and enrich our musical world. Best, Matthew Le 20 juil. 2019 à 13:22, Ron Andrico a écrit : Tristan, the various alternative temperaments may sound nice for a narrow repertory with the excepted odd note, but musicians who understand music and who explore the more interesting repertory for lute follow the precepts of Galilei, which approximates equal temperament. RA __ From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu on behalf of Tristan von Neumann Sent: Friday, July 19, 2019 4:04 PM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Lute Temperaments I know this is a wide topic... Today, I changed my fret setup from Gerle to Dowland (Thanks to Mr. Niskanen and his marvellous calculator), because I mostly play later 16th century music. It sounds somewhat "brighter" in the keys preferred then. Maybe I will also try what Galilei recommended. Which one did you try and which one do you prefer (for solo playing). What are your thoughts on character vs. versatility? To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments
Yes, there are minor thirds in 1/4 comma meantone that are wider than in equal temperament and so closer to pure (they beat less)! Minor thirds in equal temperament are more than 15 cents narrower than pure. Maybe you were referring to augmented seconds (in meantone, enharmonic accidentals are no longer the same). Obviously one has to choose between, say, a D# and an Eb (unless you have a keyboard with split accidentals). Best, Matthew Le 20 juil. 2019 à 16:45, r.turov...@gmail.com a écrit : > It is a lot more harrowing to hear the minor 3rds that are too wide, > resulting from various masochistic temperaments. > > And the use of the latter in music that contains chromaticism is simply > insufferable. > RT > > > http://turovsky.org > Feci quod potui. Faciant meliora potentes. > >> On Jul 20, 2019, at 10:28 AM, Matthew Daillie >> wrote: >> >> It has been well-documented that the instructions published by Robert >> Dowland in the Varietie of Lute Lessons are critically flawed (see Lindley >> pp. 81-83). >> >> It is highly probable that something close to equal temperament was used >> during the renaissance period but so were several variants of meantone >> temperament. The latter favours pure major thirds and creates major and >> minor semitones with far more character than equal temperament, notably for >> the many chromatic passages prevalent in renaissance music. I think a deeper >> understanding of temperaments is a prerequisite for playing early music and >> much can be learned by looking at how other instruments were tuned. 1/4 >> comma meantone was clearly used on early keyboards and it would be pretty >> unthinkable today to listen to a performance of 16th century Italian music >> or the English virginalists in equal temperament (obviously as we move into >> the baroque period, circulating temperaments were adopted that favoured >> purer fifths rather than pure major thirds). >> >> When one gets used to playing a piece in 1/4 comma meantone with its pure, >> beatless major thirds, it can be quite a harrowing experience to go back to >> equal temperament as one is conscious of just how much crucial intervals >> beat and everything appears to be out of tune. It is not necessarily easy to >> adapt meantone successfully to the lute, but it can be done with time and >> careful adjustments of frets and the addition of tastini. 1/5 comma meantone >> is quite popular amongst major lutenists and although the thirds are no >> longer pure, it does impart far more character than equal temperament and >> does not require such extreme fret placement (which can be particularly >> uncomfortable on the short string length of a lute in a', for example). If >> one has access to an early keyboard and the help of an experienced player, >> it can be easier to appreciate the fundamentals of various temperaments than >> on the lute (metal strings facilitate the detection of beatless intervals). >> >> Rather than being a daunting prospect, the use of meantone temperaments on >> the lute can add further enjoyment to one's playing and enrich our musical >> world. >> >> Best, >> >> Matthew >> >> >>> Le 20 juil. 2019 à 13:22, Ron Andrico a écrit : >>> >>> Tristan, the various alternative temperaments may sound nice for a >>> narrow repertory with the excepted odd note, but musicians who >>> understand music and who explore the more interesting repertory for >>> lute follow the precepts of Galilei, which approximates equal >>> temperament. >>> >>> RA >>> __ >>> >>> From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu on behalf >>> of Tristan von Neumann >>> Sent: Friday, July 19, 2019 4:04 PM >>> To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu >>> Subject: [LUTE] Lute Temperaments >>> >>> I know this is a wide topic... >>> Today, I changed my fret setup from Gerle to Dowland (Thanks to Mr. >>> Niskanen and his marvellous calculator), because I mostly play later >>> 16th century music. >>> It sounds somewhat "brighter" in the keys preferred then. >>> Maybe I will also try what Galilei recommended. >>> Which one did you try and which one do you prefer (for solo playing). >>> What are your thoughts on character vs. versatility? >>> To get on or off this list see list information at >>> [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >>> >>> -- >>> >>> References >>> >>> 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >> >> >> >
[LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments
Roman, "insufferable" temperament does not exist. All temperaments are an acquired taste - otherwise you would (and some people surely did) think the music of Arabia insufferable with its 3/4 tones. Or Gamelan ensembles consisting of instruments left to rot and detune deliberately because it reflects the age of the instrument. On 20.07.19 16:45, r.turov...@gmail.com wrote: It is a lot more harrowing to hear the minor 3rds that are too wide, resulting from various masochistic temperaments. And the use of the latter in music that contains chromaticism is simply insufferable. RT http://turovsky.org Feci quod potui. Faciant meliora potentes. On Jul 20, 2019, at 10:28 AM, Matthew Daillie wrote: It has been well-documented that the instructions published by Robert Dowland in the Varietie of Lute Lessons are critically flawed (see Lindley pp. 81-83). It is highly probable that something close to equal temperament was used during the renaissance period but so were several variants of meantone temperament. The latter favours pure major thirds and creates major and minor semitones with far more character than equal temperament, notably for the many chromatic passages prevalent in renaissance music. I think a deeper understanding of temperaments is a prerequisite for playing early music and much can be learned by looking at how other instruments were tuned. 1/4 comma meantone was clearly used on early keyboards and it would be pretty unthinkable today to listen to a performance of 16th century Italian music or the English virginalists in equal temperament (obviously as we move into the baroque period, circulating temperaments were adopted that favoured purer fifths rather than pure major thirds). When one gets used to playing a piece in 1/4 comma meantone with its pure, beatless major thirds, it can be quite a harrowing experience to go back to equal temperament as one is conscious of just how much crucial intervals beat and everything appears to be out of tune. It is not necessarily easy to adapt meantone successfully to the lute, but it can be done with time and careful adjustments of frets and the addition of tastini. 1/5 comma meantone is quite popular amongst major lutenists and although the thirds are no longer pure, it does impart far more character than equal temperament and does not require such extreme fret placement (which can be particularly uncomfortable on the short string length of a lute in a', for example). If one has access to an early keyboard and the help of an experienced player, it can be easier to appreciate the fundamentals of various temperaments than on the lute (metal strings facilitate the detection of beatless intervals). Rather than being a daunting prospect, the use of meantone temperaments on the lute can add further enjoyment to one's playing and enrich our musical world. Best, Matthew Le 20 juil. 2019 à 13:22, Ron Andrico a écrit : Tristan, the various alternative temperaments may sound nice for a narrow repertory with the excepted odd note, but musicians who understand music and who explore the more interesting repertory for lute follow the precepts of Galilei, which approximates equal temperament. RA __ From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu on behalf of Tristan von Neumann Sent: Friday, July 19, 2019 4:04 PM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Lute Temperaments I know this is a wide topic... Today, I changed my fret setup from Gerle to Dowland (Thanks to Mr. Niskanen and his marvellous calculator), because I mostly play later 16th century music. It sounds somewhat "brighter" in the keys preferred then. Maybe I will also try what Galilei recommended. Which one did you try and which one do you prefer (for solo playing). What are your thoughts on character vs. versatility? To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments
It is a lot more harrowing to hear the minor 3rds that are too wide, resulting from various masochistic temperaments. And the use of the latter in music that contains chromaticism is simply insufferable. RT http://turovsky.org Feci quod potui. Faciant meliora potentes. > On Jul 20, 2019, at 10:28 AM, Matthew Daillie > wrote: > > It has been well-documented that the instructions published by Robert Dowland > in the Varietie of Lute Lessons are critically flawed (see Lindley pp. 81-83). > > It is highly probable that something close to equal temperament was used > during the renaissance period but so were several variants of meantone > temperament. The latter favours pure major thirds and creates major and minor > semitones with far more character than equal temperament, notably for the > many chromatic passages prevalent in renaissance music. I think a deeper > understanding of temperaments is a prerequisite for playing early music and > much can be learned by looking at how other instruments were tuned. 1/4 comma > meantone was clearly used on early keyboards and it would be pretty > unthinkable today to listen to a performance of 16th century Italian music or > the English virginalists in equal temperament (obviously as we move into the > baroque period, circulating temperaments were adopted that favoured purer > fifths rather than pure major thirds). > > When one gets used to playing a piece in 1/4 comma meantone with its pure, > beatless major thirds, it can be quite a harrowing experience to go back to > equal temperament as one is conscious of just how much crucial intervals beat > and everything appears to be out of tune. It is not necessarily easy to adapt > meantone successfully to the lute, but it can be done with time and careful > adjustments of frets and the addition of tastini. 1/5 comma meantone is quite > popular amongst major lutenists and although the thirds are no longer pure, > it does impart far more character than equal temperament and does not require > such extreme fret placement (which can be particularly uncomfortable on the > short string length of a lute in a', for example). If one has access to an > early keyboard and the help of an experienced player, it can be easier to > appreciate the fundamentals of various temperaments than on the lute (metal > strings facilitate the detection of beatless intervals). > > Rather than being a daunting prospect, the use of meantone temperaments on > the lute can add further enjoyment to one's playing and enrich our musical > world. > > Best, > > Matthew > > >> Le 20 juil. 2019 à 13:22, Ron Andrico a écrit : >> >> Tristan, the various alternative temperaments may sound nice for a >> narrow repertory with the excepted odd note, but musicians who >> understand music and who explore the more interesting repertory for >> lute follow the precepts of Galilei, which approximates equal >> temperament. >> >> RA >>__ >> >> From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu on behalf >> of Tristan von Neumann >> Sent: Friday, July 19, 2019 4:04 PM >> To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu >> Subject: [LUTE] Lute Temperaments >> >> I know this is a wide topic... >> Today, I changed my fret setup from Gerle to Dowland (Thanks to Mr. >> Niskanen and his marvellous calculator), because I mostly play later >> 16th century music. >> It sounds somewhat "brighter" in the keys preferred then. >> Maybe I will also try what Galilei recommended. >> Which one did you try and which one do you prefer (for solo playing). >> What are your thoughts on character vs. versatility? >> To get on or off this list see list information at >> [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >> >> -- >> >> References >> >> 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > >
[LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments
It has been well-documented that the instructions published by Robert Dowland in the Varietie of Lute Lessons are critically flawed (see Lindley pp. 81-83). It is highly probable that something close to equal temperament was used during the renaissance period but so were several variants of meantone temperament. The latter favours pure major thirds and creates major and minor semitones with far more character than equal temperament, notably for the many chromatic passages prevalent in renaissance music. I think a deeper understanding of temperaments is a prerequisite for playing early music and much can be learned by looking at how other instruments were tuned. 1/4 comma meantone was clearly used on early keyboards and it would be pretty unthinkable today to listen to a performance of 16th century Italian music or the English virginalists in equal temperament (obviously as we move into the baroque period, circulating temperaments were adopted that favoured purer fifths rather than pure major thirds). When one gets used to playing a piece in 1/4 comma meantone with its pure, beatless major thirds, it can be quite a harrowing experience to go back to equal temperament as one is conscious of just how much crucial intervals beat and everything appears to be out of tune. It is not necessarily easy to adapt meantone successfully to the lute, but it can be done with time and careful adjustments of frets and the addition of tastini. 1/5 comma meantone is quite popular amongst major lutenists and although the thirds are no longer pure, it does impart far more character than equal temperament and does not require such extreme fret placement (which can be particularly uncomfortable on the short string length of a lute in a', for example). If one has access to an early keyboard and the help of an experienced player, it can be easier to appreciate the fundamentals of various temperaments than on the lute (metal strings facilitate the detection of beatless intervals). Rather than being a daunting prospect, the use of meantone temperaments on the lute can add further enjoyment to one's playing and enrich our musical world. Best, Matthew Le 20 juil. 2019 à 13:22, Ron Andrico a écrit : > Tristan, the various alternative temperaments may sound nice for a > narrow repertory with the excepted odd note, but musicians who > understand music and who explore the more interesting repertory for > lute follow the precepts of Galilei, which approximates equal > temperament. > > RA > __ > > From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu on behalf > of Tristan von Neumann > Sent: Friday, July 19, 2019 4:04 PM > To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > Subject: [LUTE] Lute Temperaments > > I know this is a wide topic... > Today, I changed my fret setup from Gerle to Dowland (Thanks to Mr. > Niskanen and his marvellous calculator), because I mostly play later > 16th century music. > It sounds somewhat "brighter" in the keys preferred then. > Maybe I will also try what Galilei recommended. > Which one did you try and which one do you prefer (for solo playing). > What are your thoughts on character vs. versatility? > To get on or off this list see list information at > [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > -- > > References > > 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments
Well, the tags refer to Gerle and Dowland because they both stand for a certain period, and both have written about setting frets – and ay, there's the rub, because Dowland cited Gerle's much earlier instructions, including a miscalculation. It would be nice to have a lute from Gerle's workshop. The man was an instrument builder as well as a teacher of both viols and lute, but there is not a single Instrument known from his Hands, only the six-course lute from a later member of the Gerle family which is in Vienna today. Best Joachim-Original-Nachricht- Betreff: Re: [LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments Datum: 2019-07-20T12:42:16+0200 Von: "Jurgen Frenz" An: "jo.lued...@t-online.de" I had the impression that the downloadable xcel sheet by the American Lute Society says so because it names tunings "Gerle's lute" and "Downland's lute" among others - I would be glad to learn better. https://home.cs.dartmouth.edu/~lsa/download/index.html Best Jurgen -- “Close your eyes. Fall in love. Stay there.” Jalāl ad-Dīn Muhammad Rumi ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐ On Saturday, July 20, 2019 2:37 PM, wrote: > That must be some misunderstanding - there are no instruments on which one > could base Gerle or Dowland tmperaments. > > Best > > Jo > > Originalnachricht > Von: Jurgen Frenz > Gesendet: Samstag, 20. Juli 2019 05:40 > An: Daniel Shoskes > Antwort an: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu > Cc: Lute List; Tristan von Neumann > Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments > > from what I read the fret calculators on the net are based on historic > instruments - hence a distinct Gerle and Dowland tuning because they are > taken from the fret marks on the neck of different instruments. > @ Daniel Shoskes, I wonder with 1/6th comma tuning what is the reference > pitch as a tuning where the fundamental is G would result in different > pitches compared to a tuning based on A. Another thing, would all common keys > sound 'better' as you describe it, i.e. where are the limits as of keys? The > Dowland Coranto for instance which is basically in F minor contains C major > and Db major chords among others. > > Best wishes > Jurgen > > > > > “Close your eyes. Fall in love. Stay there.” > > Jalāl ad-Dīn Muhammad Rumi > > ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐ > On Saturday, July 20, 2019 6:15 AM, Daniel Shoskes kidneykut...@gmail.com > wrote: > > > For my Renaissance lute I prefer 1/6 comma. Not too extreme if the keys > > stray but noticeably brighter than equal for most solo music. Even if you > > prefer equal, it’s handy to know how to get to 1/6 comma if you ever play > > in a mixed ensemble. > > If you have access to the latest LSA Quarterly, the “Lute Forum” section > > has a discussion on meantone temperament with contributions from Sylvan > > Bergeron and Lucas Harris. Lucas is of the opinion that tuning using a fret > > placement calculator is inferior to tuning by ear with an electronic tuner > > because fret calculators don’t take into account factors such as action > > that can alter the placement. > > If you have access to the archives, there is also a good article by Richard > > Kolb in the Spring 2009 edition. > > Danny > > > > > On Jul 19, 2019, at 12:04 PM, Tristan von Neumann > > > tristanvonneum...@gmx.de wrote: > > > I know this is a wide topic... > > > Today, I changed my fret setup from Gerle to Dowland (Thanks to Mr. > > > Niskanen and his marvellous calculator), because I mostly play later > > > 16th century music. > > > It sounds somewhat "brighter" in the keys preferred then. > > > Maybe I will also try what Galilei recommended. > > > Which one did you try and which one do you prefer (for solo playing). > > > What are your thoughts on character vs. versatility? > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > > > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
