[LUTE] Re: Leonardo Sciulzzo
>Arne Keller >Tue, 16 Aug 2005 10:53:58 -0700 > >MO wrote: > > >So let me make an offer you cannot refuse: stop your anti-guitar and > >anti-MO campaign in this forum, and you will never hear from me > >again. Not you and not your cyber body-guard Turovsky. Do I make myself > >clear? > >You do, very clear indeed. > >How about making yourself clear away? An excellent suggestion, but not very original. Been suggested before. As I said, I will refrain from posting here on subjects that do not concern me directly, but as long as Arthur Ness continues his trolling against me, disguised however he wants, and as long as this ridiculous anti-guitar campaign continues on this list, not only by Arthur but also by a few others, I will offer my rebuttals as best as I can. You can count on that. Matanya Ophee Editions Orphe'e, Inc., 1240 Clubview Blvd. N. Columbus, OH 43235-1226 Phone: 614-846-9517 Fax: 614-846-9794 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.orphee.com http://www.livejournal.com/users/matanya/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Leonardo Sciulzzo
MO wrote: >So let me make an offer you cannot refuse: stop your anti-guitar and >anti-MO campaign in this forum, and you will never hear from me >again. Not you and not your cyber body-guard Turovsky. Do I make myself clear? You do, very clear indeed. How about making yourself clear away? With all due respect, Arne Keller. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Leonardo Sciulzzo
At 09:12 PM 8/15/2005, I wrote: At 02:45 PM 8/15/2005, Arthur Ness <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >I am not going to be drawn into a debate about Madame Robert >Sidney-Pratten, the famous guitar virtuosa of the Victorian era. I >do not understand why Matanya considers this a proper topic for this >lute list. Oops... you have already been drawn, as obvious for the quantity of verbal effluence you have been posting here and in RMCG o the subject, and it was you who introduced this subject into the Lute list. Just like you introduced other OT subjects here like Berlioz and the Guitar, Leonardo Schultz and the guitar. Mozart and the guitar, and constantly been harping about some mysterious "guitarists" whose ideas you disapprove of. And your hypocrisy regarding the question of the term "keyboard" to indicate grand staff notation for lute music, when it was you yourself who so decided it should be called in the MOLA series (to refresh your memory, here is this document which you wrote yourself: ) http://www.orphee.com/RMCG/brochure.html , is downright mind boggling. So let me make an offer you cannot refuse: stop your anti-guitar and anti-MO campaign in this forum, and you will never hear from me again. Not you and not your cyber body-guard Turovsky. Do I make myself clear? Matanya Ophee Editions Orphe'e, Inc., 1240 Clubview Blvd. N. Columbus, OH 43235-1226 Phone: 614-846-9517 Fax: 614-846-9794 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.orphee.com http://www.livejournal.com/users/matanya/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Leonardo Sciulzzo
At 02:45 PM 8/15/2005, Arthur Ness <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >I am not going to be drawn into a debate about Madame Robert >Sidney-Pratten, the famous guitar virtuosa of the Victorian era. I >do not understand why Matanya considers this a proper topic for this >lute list. Oops... you have already been drawn, as obvious for the quantity of verbal effluence you have been posting here and in RMCG o the subject, and it was you who introduced this subject into the Lute list. Just like you introduced other OT subjects here like Berlioz and the Guitar, Leonardo Schultz and the guitar. Mozart and the guitar, and constantly been harping about some mysterious "guitarists" whose ideas you disapprove of. And your hypocrisy regarding the question of the term "keyboard" to indicate grand staff notation for lute music, when it was you yourself who so decided it should be called in the MOLA series (to refresh your memory, here is this document which you wrote yourself: http://www.orphee.com/RMCG/brochure.html), is downright mind boggling. So let me make an offer you cannot refuse: stop your anti-guitar and anti-MO campaign in this forum, and you will never hear from me again. Not you and not your cyber body-guard Turovsky. Do I make myself clear? Matanya Ophee Editions Orphe'e, Inc., 1240 Clubview Blvd. N. Columbus, OH 43235-1226 Phone: 614-846-9517 Fax: 614-846-9794 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.orphee.com http://www.livejournal.com/users/matanya/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Leonardo Sciulzzo
At 02:50 AM 8/15/2005, Arthur Ness <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >does he know >that Giuliani published a book of guitar music in >tablature notation, Heck doesn't even mention it in his >Giuliani monograph, publ. by Orphee. Which Giuliani? there are 7 Giulianis in the Columbus OH telephone directory, and probably a couple of hundred in New York including one fellow named Rudolph (or Rodolfo if you want). As for early 19th century guitarists named Giuliani, there are at least 10 that we know of. You did not know that, did you? Matanya Ophee Editions Orphe'e, Inc., 1240 Clubview Blvd. N. Columbus, OH 43235-1226 Phone: 614-846-9517 Fax: 614-846-9794 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.orphee.com http://www.livejournal.com/users/matanya/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Leonardo Sciulzzo
I am not going to be drawn into a debate about Madame Robert Sidney-Pratten, the famous guitar virtuosa of the Victorian era. I do not understand why Matanya considers this a proper topic for this lute list. It seems to have been an obsession with Matanya that her husband's name was Sydney. See the confused remarks at http://www.orphee.com/RMCG/pratten.html Her husband's family's last name was Sidney-Pratten (with and without the hyphen). On September 27, 1854, she married the famed British flutist Robert Sidney-Pratten (1824-1864). (For confirmation, see Rokstro's history of the flute, and for their some 200+ published works, the British Library catalogue. There is even a photograph of Rokstro and Sidney-Pratten standing together. Rockstro credits her for much of the information she provided about her husband after his death.) His mother's maiden name was Sidney, and thereafter the Bristol branch of the Pratten family zseems to have used Sidney-Pratten, even into the 20th century. The only reason why this is worthy of note is because in researching or seeking library materials, one need to look under P for Pratten AND S for Sidney-Pratten. She had a valuable collection that included guitars that had belonged to Regondi, Leonardo Schulz, and Sor, as well as a still missing treatise by Sor in his own handwriting. I have heard from Graham Pratten, a family geneaologist and he's proivided interesting extra information. - Original Message - From: Matanya Ophee To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, August 14, 2005 12:41 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Leonardo Sciulzzo At 06:24 AM 8/14/2005, Arthur Ness <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >This is what I mean about misrepresentation. I did not refer to >OPhee's edition because it is so filled with mistakes. Mistakes >that were first pointed out by Erik Stenstadvolrt in a review in >Classical Guitar magazine. I "scandalously usurped" nothing of >Ophee's. In fact I ignored it deliberately. <> You don't want to bring this canard once again. Trust me. I have prepared a rather large article on this subject last time we went through this, one which proves beyond any shadow of a possible doubt that when it comes to guitar matters you are an incompetent bumbling and moronic idiot. I have been in a charitable mood and refrained from publishing it, but if you are really interested in learning something, I will. In the meantime, just let me acquaint you with the genealogy of the Pratten family. http://www.prattens.co.uk/FAMILIES/PRATTEN/start.html This was brought to my attention by Graham Pratten, a direct descendant. Matanya Ophee Editions Orphe'e, Inc., 1240 Clubview Blvd. N. Columbus, OH 43235-1226 Phone: 614-846-9517 Fax: 614-846-9794 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.orphee.com http://www.livejournal.com/users/matanya/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[LUTE] Re: Leonardo Sciulzzo
At 02:50 AM 8/15/2005, Arthur Ness <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >With all due respect, I think I know a bit more about >the history of guitar than does Matanya. For example, >does he know that Madame Robert Sidney-Pratten published >a posthumous work by Leonardo Schultz that she played >with great pleasure at her recitals? Yes, I do. I even have a copy of it. > Or does he know >that Giuliani published a book of guitar music in >tablature notation, Heck doesn't even mention it in his >Giuliani monograph, publ. by Orphee. That's a good one. I am sure Giuliani scholars like Heck and Marco Riboni would love to hear about that. Published where? by whom? and for what possible market during Giuliani's life time? Oh I got it. Giuliani published posthumously, just like that famous contest he had with Sor in London in 1833, four years after his death. Check your Baker's for details. As for your knowledge of guitar history, you can claim anything you want, but without published evidence, it is meaningless boasting. You should know that much from your past academic work. There is nothing in Music Index or OCLC that would even remotely link you to any scholarship on guitar history. Matanya Ophee Editions Orphe'e, Inc., 1240 Clubview Blvd. N. Columbus, OH 43235-1226 Phone: 614-846-9517 Fax: 614-846-9794 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.orphee.com http://www.livejournal.com/users/matanya/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Leonardo Sciulzzo
> I'm happy that you and your family arrived safely at > home. We too had a huge tree snap off outsideour > bedroom window. It sounded like an explosion. MO at work, obviously. One of these days he'll get squashed by an airborn outhouse from Kansas. > > With all due respect, I think I know a bit more about > the history of guitar than does Matanya. Why am I not surprised? RT For example, > does he know that Madame Robert Sidney-Pratten published > a posthumous work by Leonardo Schultz that she played > with great pleasure at her recitals? Or does he know > that Giuliani published a book of guitar music in > tablature notation, Heck doesn't even mention it in his > Giuliani monograph, publ. by Orphee. > > ajn > - Original Message - > From: Roman Turovsky > To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > Sent: Monday, August 15, 2005 1:42 AM > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Leonardo Sciulzzo > > > > from Arthur on the merits of the issues at hand. Dr. > > Arthur Joseph > > Stonewall PH.D. is a well known figure in these parts. > > What I am > > getting out of this is the simple matter of making a > > public record > > which establishes the fact that in spite of his vast > > knowledge of > > lute matters, Arthur knows nothing about the guitar > > and its history, > So what? This is not a shortcoming in our > neck-o-the-woods. > > > > and the sooner he shuts up and not bring up guitar > > issues in this > > forum, or elsewhere, the better he will be prepared to > > deflect the > > impression of him as a fraud. > This impression is in your "mind" alone. > RT > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > >
[LUTE] Re: Leonardo Sciulzzo
Hello Roman, I'm happy that you and your family arrived safely at home. We too had a huge tree snap off outsideour bedroom window. It sounded like an explosion. With all due respect, I think I know a bit more about the history of guitar than does Matanya. For example, does he know that Madame Robert Sidney-Pratten published a posthumous work by Leonardo Schultz that she played with great pleasure at her recitals? Or does he know that Giuliani published a book of guitar music in tablature notation, Heck doesn't even mention it in his Giuliani monograph, publ. by Orphee. ajn - Original Message - From: Roman Turovsky To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, August 15, 2005 1:42 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Leonardo Sciulzzo > from Arthur on the merits of the issues at hand. Dr. > Arthur Joseph > Stonewall PH.D. is a well known figure in these parts. > What I am > getting out of this is the simple matter of making a > public record > which establishes the fact that in spite of his vast > knowledge of > lute matters, Arthur knows nothing about the guitar > and its history, So what? This is not a shortcoming in our neck-o-the-woods. > and the sooner he shuts up and not bring up guitar > issues in this > forum, or elsewhere, the better he will be prepared to > deflect the > impression of him as a fraud. This impression is in your "mind" alone. RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Leonardo Sciulzzo
> from Arthur on the merits of the issues at hand. Dr. Arthur Joseph > Stonewall PH.D. is a well known figure in these parts. What I am > getting out of this is the simple matter of making a public record > which establishes the fact that in spite of his vast knowledge of > lute matters, Arthur knows nothing about the guitar and its history, So what? This is not a shortcoming in our neck-o-the-woods. > and the sooner he shuts up and not bring up guitar issues in this > forum, or elsewhere, the better he will be prepared to deflect the > impression of him as a fraud. This impression is in your "mind" alone. RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Leonardo Sciulzzo
> your predictability. Too bad you do not live > closer to me. I can certainly use an artist on > the pay roll, and I would love to have you closer > to observe. I don't work for insolvent crooks. > It should be obvious, even to mental midgets like > you, that the relevance of the subject matter of > my invective in this forum was established by > Arthur Ness' unconscionable introduction of > Leonhard Schulz into this forum. Once introduced, > the subject is fair game for discussion. Indeed. For those who have nothing to say. You are an indisputable mental giant, a mental sperm-whale, no less. > you do not mean to suggest that on any subject > whatsoever, there is only one point of view that > can be allowed here, and that is the view of the current nomenklatura? MO, you tend to confuse a point of view with rectal discharge. RT ___ $0 Web Hosting with up to 200MB web space, 1000 MB Transfer 10 Personalized POP and Web E-mail Accounts, and much more. Signup at www.doteasy.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Leonardo Sciulzzo
At 06:24 AM 8/14/2005, Arthur Ness <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >This is what I mean about misrepresentation. I did not refer to >OPhee's edition because it is so filled with mistakes. Mistakes >that were first pointed out by Erik Stenstadvolrt in a review in >Classical Guitar magazine. I "scandalously usurped" nothing of >Ophee's. In fact I ignored it deliberately. Now here is a misrepresentation on the grandest scale: The review in CG was of the 1984 printed edition, not on the 1997 on line edition. And thank you for stating the obvious, that you deliberately ignored some thing that you knew very well of its existence, which is exactly what I am talking about. Mistakes or otherwise, you pretended that the you just found the R&BS copy, when in fact, the very edition which you chose to criticize 8 years ago, contained the full details on the location of the original, and copies of it were reproduced in my on-line LTTE. [needless repetitions of some bullshit snipped] >This first came up on some guitar list with Stenstadvolt >participating. That's when I drew the Beethoven comparison,because >it explained whAt the correct notes were in the introduction, >F-naturals and B flats, not the F-sharps and B naturals favored by >Ophee and Erik. Thank you for once again, confirming that you knew all along that this edition existed and that your pretensions of finding it were false. >If Schulz (Schultz) wanted to use an Italianized form of his first >name,so what? That's not the issue. The issue is that you don't know if Schulz ever wanted to use an Italianized name, there is no contemporary source with him that ever used an Italianized name and, the whole thing is based on some trumped up sick imagination that emanates from you and you alone. >There's also some confusion about the spelling of Leonardo's last name. There is no confusion, unless it is in your sick mind. All the sources, including all the dictionaries, newspaper advertisement, catalog entries in the R&BS collection, and particularly, all of Schulz' publications, of which there are quite a few, always spell the name as Schulz. Without the T. Thought you'd like to know. > This reminds me, RT, that the Bambino guitar that once belonged to > Madame Robert Sidney-Pratten, You don't want to bring this canard once again. Trust me. I have prepared a rather large article on this subject last time we went through this, one which proves beyond any shadow of a possible doubt that when it comes to guitar matters you are an incompetent bumbling and moronic idiot. I have been in a charitable mood and refrained from publishing it, but if you are really interested in learning something, I will. In the meantime, just let me acquaint you with the genealogy of the Pratten family. http://www.prattens.co.uk/FAMILIES/PRATTEN/start.html This was brought to my attention by Graham Pratten, a direct descendant. Matanya Ophee Editions Orphe'e, Inc., 1240 Clubview Blvd. N. Columbus, OH 43235-1226 Phone: 614-846-9517 Fax: 614-846-9794 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.orphee.com http://www.livejournal.com/users/matanya/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Leonardo Sciulzzo
This is what I mean about misrepresentation. I did not refer to OPhee's edition because it is so filled with mistakes. Mistakes that were first pointed out by Erik Stenstadvolrt in a review in Classical Guitar magazine. I "scandalously usurped" nothing of Ophee's. In fact I ignored it deliberately. I went to the best source, the original manuscript copied by an amateur Danish guitar player, which I saw for the first time just a few days ago. It is the only source for these "Recollections of Ireland." One can see just what is in the score, not what Ophee _thinks_ might be in the score. I guess because he published it, he thinks he has exclusive rights to it. He doesn't. It's in the public domain. This first came up on some guitar list with Stenstadvolt participating. That's when I drew the Beethoven comparison,because it explained whAt the correct notes were in the introduction, F-naturals and B flats, not the F-sharps and B naturals favored by Ophee and Erik. When Eugene brought up the Beethoven connection, I remembered this slight little piece and realized it would make his point for him. The Beethoven connexction also helps to explain away some of the wrong notes which pepper the original manuscript, copied by an amateur. If Schulz (Schultz) wanted to use an Italianized form of his first name,so what? How does that detract from his stature as a guitarist/composer. "Recollections of Ireland" not withstanding. To the list of Austrians with Italianized names we can add Antonio Rosetti (Anton Roessler) and Giovanni Colomba (Joh.Friedr. Daube). There's also some confusion about the spelling of Leonardo's last name. This reminds me, RT, that the Bambino guitar that once belonged to Madame Robert Sidney-Pratten, the famous English guitarist, is now in the Boston Museum of Fine Arts. - Original Message - From: Roman Turovsky To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, August 12, 2005 11:55 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Leonardo Sciulzzo > To present this as your recent find, when you knew damn well that I > published this piece in paper format in 1984, and when it ran out of > print, I posted it on line in 1997, at which time you chose to > criticize it on RMCG, in other words, you knew that it was there, is > nothing short of a scandalous usurpation of my work. MO, your nipping at Arthur's soles is not getting you anywhere. RT ___ $0 Web Hosting with up to 200MB web space, 1000 MB Transfer 10 Personalized POP and Web E-mail Accounts, and much more. Signup at www.doteasy.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[LUTE] Re: Leonardo Sciulzzo
At 11:18 PM 8/12/2005, you wrote: >Arthur wrote: > >I'll stand on my F naturals, which both MO and ES turn to F sharps. > >My original printed edition did have the F naturals, and that was the >point on which Erik criticized it. Eventually, in our discussions on >RMCG, you were the one who told me (Remember, all of this is still >on-line in the Google archives of RMCG) that Erik was right and I was >wrong, and I should put the sharp back in. As I explain in my on-line >article, I eventually made the change not because of what you and >Erik said, but for my own reasons. I any case, the critical apparatus >attached to the edition clearly spells out the available choices and >each guitarist can make up his or her mind without being spoon-fed by >you or by me. All of the above is of course exactly 180 degrees off. My original 1984 paper edition had the F#, and that is the point Erik criticized it. (Takes a bit of reflection to get untangled from Arthur's obfuscations...) The current on line edition has the F natural and for Arthur to say that it is a sharp is not only a misrepresentation, but an outright lie. Check it out for yourself: http://www.orphee.com/schulz-1.pdf Matanya Ophee Editions Orphe'e, Inc., 1240 Clubview Blvd. N. Columbus, OH 43235-1226 Phone: 614-846-9517 Fax: 614-846-9794 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.orphee.com http://www.livejournal.com/users/matanya/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Leonardo Sciulzzo / Pirates of Penance
At 01:23 PM 8/13/2005, Arthur wrote: > To catch modern day pirates Ophee changes a few notes in his editions of public domain >music, so that when someone else publishes the same pieces with his alterations he can >charge them with copyright infringement. Of course one can go back to the original public >domain piece and publish that, and there is nothing that Ophee can do about it. Which is why I provide the full information on the source used in the edition itself. Right? It does not take long for you to grab on a word expressed by a poster to try to change the subject. The issue is not pirating but your claim that you found the R&BS copy of Schulz' Recollections of Ireland Op. 41, when in point of fact you knew about it for more than 8 years by now since I gave you all the information about it. > He only has copyright on the edition he publishes, such as "Recollections of Ireland" with >all those mistakes. Anyone can use and even publish the same piece by downloading the >pubic domain copy from the Royal Library in Copenhagen, thanks to Coldwell. Anyone >can correct all the mistakes in that manuscript, and publish it and obtain their own copyright >protection. Is there an echo in here? >(Just don't copy from Ophee, or he will get you.) Damn right I will. Last fellow who did that, one Vladimir Mikulka, learned the hard way that when I provide the full information about the source I used for my edition, it is much better and cheaper to go back to the original and do his own edition, completely independent of my work. Mikulka's edition of Bobrowicz' Variations on La Ci Darem La Mano was removed from circulation by its publisher, Lemoine, when I proved that it was a rip off of my edition of the same. That was back in 1992, and since then, people have learned to leave my editions alone. So far, no one had attempted the Mikulka caper. There is no need to. There is so much PD music available, (only I happen to have published some of the best stuff first...) > From what he is harping on in this thread seems to suggest he thinks he has some > exclusive rights to the piece. He doesn't. That's bullshit. Of course I do not have any rights to the piece. But I do have an inalienable right to the fact that I published this pieces in 1984, posted it on line in 1997, and there is no way in Hell you can come now and pretend to have just found it. > And I was under no obligation to refer to his faulty edition, since the piece is readily > available from Copenhagen, without Ophee's heavy-handed mis-editing. My editing methodology, and all the decisions I made, are readily available for study on line by anyone. You do not state clearly what are your objections and expect readers to take you at your words. Needless to say, sycophants such as Roman Turovsky take at your words even before you pronounced them. I do not. I am not aware of any published music for the guitar under your editorship, ever making itself known. None. You have never edited guitar music, you do not even play the guitar and never did, and as a matter of fact, you do not even play the lute. As for editing lute music, let's see... the last time you published anything in this field was when? Oh, I get it. 1970. 35 years ago. As far as I can tell, you are very good at making lists of things, but you are simply unqualified to express an opinion on editing guitar music. Matanya Ophee Editions Orphe'e, Inc., 1240 Clubview Blvd. N. Columbus, OH 43235-1226 Phone: 614-846-9517 Fax: 614-846-9794 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.orphee.com http://www.livejournal.com/users/matanya/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Leonardo Sciulzzo / Pirates of Penance
I am certain that Phalese's customers were grateful to him for rounding up all that music.It wouldhave been very expensive for an individual to buy all those books. And I think stationers may also have been in the business of providing handwritten music to order. Scribes came quite cheaply back then. There was a glut of scribes in Augsburg during the 16th century that the guild of scribes refused to take any apprentices unless they agreed to leave Augsburg when their training had ended. - Original Message - From: Alain Veylit To: Arthur Ness Cc: Lute Net Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2005 1:23 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Leonardo Sciulzzo / Pirates of Penance Arthur, Copyright laws were first passed in England in 1712. The previous laws consisted of publisher's privileges, which essentially meant that the authors did not get any share in the profit of the sales. Hence the necessity for them to have dedicatees and patrons willing to finance their works. Copyright laws came into existence in fact to protect the rights of authors against their publishers. Pirates were not always bad: there was a famous publishing pirate in England in the early 18th century, named Curll. A story goes that Alexander Pope once met him in disguise in a dark alley to sell him his own manuscript which he pretended to have obtained illegally. A pirated work was a popular work, and as we know, there is no bad publicity. Alain Arthur Ness wrote: >Webster's under "Pirate" > >To reproduce without authorization, esp. in infringement of copyright. > >There was copyright of sorts in the 16th century, when composers or publishers were given exclusive rights from the ruler (king, dodge, duke) for a period of time, usually just ten years. If Phalese's lute books were brought into Venice they would probably be confiscated, and perhaps the owner fined. The fine would go to the publisher whose works were pirated by Phalese. > - Original Message - > From: Arthur Ness > To: Jon Murphy ; Lute Net ; Roman Turovsky > Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2005 10:34 AM > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Leonardo Sciulzzo / Pirates of Penance > > > Dear Jon, > > I don't understand why you are writing to me. "Piracy" and "Pirate" are a proper terms used by bibliographers to refer to a publisher who puts out works previously published by others. (Much piracy is prevented these days by the copyright laws.) > > The most notorious musical pirate of the 16th century was Pierre Phal=E8se. For example, in the 1540s he published five books of lute music. Not a single piece originated with him, but all were pirated from earlier prints by Petrucci (Venice, 1508), Attaingnant (Paris1529 and 1530), Formschneider (Nuremberg 1533), Narvaez (Vallodolid, 1538), H. Newsidler (Nuremberg 1533), Rotta (Venice 1546), F da Milano/Borrono (Venice, 1546), da Crema (Venice 1546), Bianchini (Venice 1546) and Francesco/Pierino (Venice 1547). He really traveled far and wide to amass all that boodle. > > To catch modern day pirates Ophee changes a few notes in his editions of public domain music, so that when someone else publishes the same pieces with his alterations he can charge them with copyright infringement. Of course one can go back to the original public domain piece and publish that, and there is nothing that Ophee can do about it. > > He only has copyright on the edition he publishes, such as "Recollections of Ireland" with all those mistakes. Anyone can use and even publish the same piece by downloading the pubic domain copy from the Royal Library in Copenhagen, thanks to Coldwell. Anyone can correct all the mistakes in that manuscript, and publish it and obtain their own copyright protection. (Just don't copy from Ophee, or he will get you.) > > From what he is harping on in this thread seems to suggest he thinks he has some exclusive rights to the piece. He doesn't. And I was under no obligation to refer to his faulty edition, since the piece is readily available from Copenhagen, without Ophee's heavy-handed mis-editing. >- Original Message ----- > From: Jon Murphy >To: Arthur Ness ; Lute Net ; Roman Turovsky >Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2005 3:37 AM >Subject: [LUTE] Re: Leonardo Sciulzzo > > >Being uniformed on this thread I'll say "I don't know no MO". I have some >knowledge of piracy, but only on the high seas. Is it so important (and it >might be for the personal income of the individuals involved) that this list >be dedicated to the finding of rights for publication. If that is the case >is there a list with all the same p
[LUTE] Re: Leonardo Sciulzzo / Pirates of Penance
Arthur, Copyright laws were first passed in England in 1712. The previous laws consisted of publisher's privileges, which essentially meant that the authors did not get any share in the profit of the sales. Hence the necessity for them to have dedicatees and patrons willing to finance their works. Copyright laws came into existence in fact to protect the rights of authors against their publishers. Pirates were not always bad: there was a famous publishing pirate in England in the early 18th century, named Curll. A story goes that Alexander Pope once met him in disguise in a dark alley to sell him his own manuscript which he pretended to have obtained illegally. A pirated work was a popular work, and as we know, there is no bad publicity. Alain Arthur Ness wrote: >Webster's under "Pirate" > >To reproduce without authorization, esp. in infringement of > copyright. > >There was copyright of sorts in the 16th century, when composers or publishers >were given exclusive rights from the ruler (king, dodge, duke) for a period of >time, usually just ten years. If Phalese's lute books were brought into Venice >they would probably be confiscated, and perhaps the owner fined. The fine >would go to the publisher whose works were pirated by Phalese. > - Original Message - > From: Arthur Ness > To: Jon Murphy ; Lute Net ; Roman Turovsky > Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2005 10:34 AM > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Leonardo Sciulzzo / Pirates of Penance > > > Dear Jon, > > I don't understand why you are writing to me. "Piracy" and "Pirate" are a > proper terms used by bibliographers to refer to a publisher who puts out > works previously published by others. (Much piracy is prevented these days > by the copyright laws.) > > The most notorious musical pirate of the 16th century was Pierre Phal=E8se. > For example, in the 1540s he published five books of lute music. Not a > single piece originated with him, but all were pirated from earlier prints by > Petrucci (Venice, 1508), Attaingnant (Paris1529 and 1530), Formschneider > (Nuremberg 1533), Narvaez (Vallodolid, 1538), H. Newsidler (Nuremberg 1533), > Rotta (Venice 1546), F da Milano/Borrono (Venice, 1546), da Crema (Venice > 1546), Bianchini (Venice 1546) and Francesco/Pierino (Venice 1547). He > really traveled far and wide to amass all that boodle. > > To catch modern day pirates Ophee changes a few notes in his editions of > public domain music, so that when someone else publishes the same pieces with > his alterations he can charge them with copyright infringement. Of course > one can go back to the original public domain piece and publish that, and > there is nothing that Ophee can do about it. > > He only has copyright on the edition he publishes, such as "Recollections of > Ireland" with all those mistakes. Anyone can use and even publish the same > piece by downloading the pubic domain copy from the Royal Library in > Copenhagen, thanks to Coldwell. Anyone can correct all the mistakes in that > manuscript, and publish it and obtain their own copyright protection. (Just > don't copy from Ophee, or he will get you.) > > From what he is harping on in this thread seems to suggest he thinks he has > some exclusive rights to the piece. He doesn't. And I was under no > obligation to refer to his faulty edition, since the piece is readily > available from Copenhagen, without Ophee's heavy-handed mis-editing. >- Original Message - >From: Jon Murphy >To: Arthur Ness ; Lute Net ; Roman Turovsky >Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2005 3:37 AM >Subject: [LUTE] Re: Leonardo Sciulzzo > > >Being uniformed on this thread I'll say "I don't know no MO". I have some >knowledge of piracy, but only on the high seas. Is it so important (and it >might be for the personal income of the individuals involved) that this > list >be dedicated to the finding of rights for publication. If that is the case >is there a list with all the same people where publishing rights are less >important than the music? I am not a scholar, nor do I pretend to be. I do >read things, and make opinions for myself, but I gather that a scholar must >have some qualification. I don't. I shall retire to my bed at this late > hour >with that knowledge (where I shall console myself by eating popcorn and >reading a book, the latest being Evan Thomas' writings on John Paul Jones, > a >flawed but seldom examined Naval Officer who basically created the US Navy. >But I might choose another book on musical history, or another on Celtic >Warriors. I'll kn
[LUTE] Re: Leonardo Sciulzzo / Pirates of Penance
Webster's under "Pirate" To reproduce without authorization, esp. in infringement of copyright. There was copyright of sorts in the 16th century, when composers or publishers were given exclusive rights from the ruler (king, dodge, duke) for a period of time, usually just ten years. If Phalese's lute books were brought into Venice they would probably be confiscated, and perhaps the owner fined. The fine would go to the publisher whose works were pirated by Phalese. - Original Message - From: Arthur Ness To: Jon Murphy ; Lute Net ; Roman Turovsky Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2005 10:34 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Leonardo Sciulzzo / Pirates of Penance Dear Jon, I don't understand why you are writing to me. "Piracy" and "Pirate" are a proper terms used by bibliographers to refer to a publisher who puts out works previously published by others. (Much piracy is prevented these days by the copyright laws.) The most notorious musical pirate of the 16th century was Pierre Phal=E8se. For example, in the 1540s he published five books of lute music. Not a single piece originated with him, but all were pirated from earlier prints by Petrucci (Venice, 1508), Attaingnant (Paris1529 and 1530), Formschneider (Nuremberg 1533), Narvaez (Vallodolid, 1538), H. Newsidler (Nuremberg 1533), Rotta (Venice 1546), F da Milano/Borrono (Venice, 1546), da Crema (Venice 1546), Bianchini (Venice 1546) and Francesco/Pierino (Venice 1547). He really traveled far and wide to amass all that boodle. To catch modern day pirates Ophee changes a few notes in his editions of public domain music, so that when someone else publishes the same pieces with his alterations he can charge them with copyright infringement. Of course one can go back to the original public domain piece and publish that, and there is nothing that Ophee can do about it. He only has copyright on the edition he publishes, such as "Recollections of Ireland" with all those mistakes. Anyone can use and even publish the same piece by downloading the pubic domain copy from the Royal Library in Copenhagen, thanks to Coldwell. Anyone can correct all the mistakes in that manuscript, and publish it and obtain their own copyright protection. (Just don't copy from Ophee, or he will get you.) From what he is harping on in this thread seems to suggest he thinks he has some exclusive rights to the piece. He doesn't. And I was under no obligation to refer to his faulty edition, since the piece is readily available from Copenhagen, without Ophee's heavy-handed mis-editing. - Original Message - From: Jon Murphy To: Arthur Ness ; Lute Net ; Roman Turovsky Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2005 3:37 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Leonardo Sciulzzo Being uniformed on this thread I'll say "I don't know no MO". I have some knowledge of piracy, but only on the high seas. Is it so important (and it might be for the personal income of the individuals involved) that this list be dedicated to the finding of rights for publication. If that is the case is there a list with all the same people where publishing rights are less important than the music? I am not a scholar, nor do I pretend to be. I do read things, and make opinions for myself, but I gather that a scholar must have some qualification. I don't. I shall retire to my bed at this late hour with that knowledge (where I shall console myself by eating popcorn and reading a book, the latest being Evan Thomas' writings on John Paul Jones, a flawed but seldom examined Naval Officer who basically created the US Navy. But I might choose another book on musical history, or another on Celtic Warriors. I'll know which I read when I pick it up off my bedside table. But scholar I'm not, as one needs an official imprimature for that. Best, Jon - Original Message - From: "Roman Turovsky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Arthur Ness" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Lute Net" Sent: Friday, August 12, 2005 6:49 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Leonardo Sciulzzo > > Besides, Ophee's edition has so many mistakes, I couldn't refer to it to > make my point about Beethoven influences. > MO deliberately inserts mistakes into his "editions", to track down > potential piracy. A scholarly type, isn't he? > RT > > > > ___ > $0 Web Hosting with up to 200MB web space, 1000 MB Transfer > 10 Personalized POP and Web E-mail Accounts, and much more. > Signup at www.doteasy.com > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > -- --
[LUTE] Re: Leonardo Sciulzzo
At 11:55 PM 8/12/2005, Roman Turovsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > To present this as your recent find, when you knew damn well that I > > published this piece in paper format in 1984, and when it ran out of > > print, I posted it on line in 1997, at which time you chose to > > criticize it on RMCG, in other words, you knew that it was there, is > > nothing short of a scandalous usurpation of my work. >MO, your nipping at Arthur's soles is not getting you anywhere. Right again. I do not expect an intelligent and responsible response from Arthur on the merits of the issues at hand. Dr. Arthur Joseph Stonewall PH.D. is a well known figure in these parts. What I am getting out of this is the simple matter of making a public record which establishes the fact that in spite of his vast knowledge of lute matters, Arthur knows nothing about the guitar and its history, and the sooner he shuts up and not bring up guitar issues in this forum, or elsewhere, the better he will be prepared to deflect the impression of him as a fraud. Matanya Ophee Editions Orphe'e, Inc., 1240 Clubview Blvd. N. Columbus, OH 43235-1226 Phone: 614-846-9517 Fax: 614-846-9794 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.orphee.com http://www.livejournal.com/users/matanya/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Leonardo Sciulzzo
At 11:33 PM 8/12/2005, Roman Turovsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > I am listening. Intently. > To yourself. Once again, you are exactly right. There is no chance in tarnation that Arthur Ness will ever respond to the challenge, and for two simple reasons: 1. he hasn't a clue of where he got this bastardized form of a historic person's name and does not really know if it exists anywhere or is simply a product of his sick imagination, 2. he is not in a position to admit that he was wrong. Never did before, and will never do again. Matanya Ophee Editions Orphe'e, Inc., 1240 Clubview Blvd. N. Columbus, OH 43235-1226 Phone: 614-846-9517 Fax: 614-846-9794 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.orphee.com http://www.livejournal.com/users/matanya/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Leonardo Sciulzzo
At 06:18 PM 8/12/2005, Roman Turovsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > IOW, you are assuming that a simple discussion of plagiarism, on > > which there is no question, would necessarily deteriorate in this > > forum into personal insults and name calling. You are right, and > > Roman Turovsky did not waste any time changing the subject into a > > personal attack on me and on my day job as a music publisher. But the > > issue for me is real: if Arthur Ness had included the information he > > ripped off my web site in a school paper, a scholarly article, or a > > published book, he would have been tarred and feathered and > > ostracized forever as a scholar. But in this forum, so it seems, he > > can get away with anything. >Yo've got that wrong. THIS IS ONE FORUM WHERE >"MO" CANNOT GET AWAY WITH HIS USUAL "ANYTHING". You are probably right. But since there is no moderator, the degree of getting away with something or nothing can only be determined by the number of people who put me in their kill file. This is a number which no one can know for certain, and certainly not you. If you think that resorting to your scurrilous personal attacks on me constitutes a degree of policing this forum, then you are probably right again. I used to worry about your posts, and even put you in a kill file. But once I figured out that you have nothing to say of any real importance, and all that you are capable of is spouting these Pavlovian predetermined responses to the slightest provocation, I removed you from my kill file. I have a few weeks of free time at the present, and I can well devote them to enjoying your predictability. Too bad you do not live closer to me. I can certainly use an artist on the pay roll, and I would love to have you closer to observe. There is a large banner on the front door of my office. It says: Hire the high IQ intellectually challenged buffoons. They are fun to watch. > > The issue here is that Leonhard Schulz left Vienna at the tender age > > of 14, never to return, and spent most of his adult life in England > > where he died in 1860. The number of newspaper reviews of his > > concerts all over Europe, are far larger than the number of reviews > > of all his contemporaries combined, and none of them, absolutely none > > of them, use an Italianized Leonardo. The only place the name appears > > in this spelling is in the 1934 Diccionario of Domingo Prat, in which > > _all_ European names have been translated into their Spanish > > equivalents. To use this spelling in the context of a discussion in > > English, is to insinuate a false image of this talented guitarist >Your little "invective" has as much relevance on this forum as your >daughter's Moroccan eggplant (while the world knows that only Arabs can be >trusted with eggplant preparation..) I agree with you about the Arabs and eggplants, but I can do a pretty good babaganouj and imam bayeldi, and my ratatouille provençal is also a dish some people who tasted it still talk about. As for the relevance of my invective to this forum: It should be obvious, even to mental midgets like you, that the relevance of the subject matter of my invective in this forum was established by Arthur Ness' unconscionable introduction of Leonhard Schulz into this forum. Once introduced, the subject is fair game for discussion. Surely you do not mean to suggest that on any subject whatsoever, there is only one point of view that can be allowed here, and that is the view of the current nomenklatura? But of course this is what you mean to suggest! Matanya Ophee Editions Orphe'e, Inc., 1240 Clubview Blvd. N. Columbus, OH 43235-1226 Phone: 614-846-9517 Fax: 614-846-9794 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.orphee.com http://www.livejournal.com/users/matanya/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Leonardo Sciulzzo / Pirates of Penance
Dear Jon, I don't understand why you are writing to me. "Piracy" and "Pirate" are a proper terms used by bibliographers to refer to a publisher who puts out works previously published by others. (Much piracy is prevented these days by the copyright laws.) The most notorious musical pirate of the 16th century was Pierre Phal=E8se. For example, in the 1540s he published five books of lute music. Not a single piece originated with him, but all were pirated from earlier prints by Petrucci (Venice, 1508), Attaingnant (Paris1529 and 1530), Formschneider (Nuremberg 1533), Narvaez (Vallodolid, 1538), H. Newsidler (Nuremberg 1533), Rotta (Venice 1546), F da Milano/Borrono (Venice, 1546), da Crema (Venice 1546), Bianchini (Venice 1546) and Francesco/Pierino (Venice 1547). He really traveled far and wide to amass all that boodle. To catch modern day pirates Ophee changes a few notes in his editions of public domain music, so that when someone else publishes the same pieces with his alterations he can charge them with copyright infringement. Of course one can go back to the original public domain piece and publish that, and there is nothing that Ophee can do about it. He only has copyright on the edition he publishes, such as "Recollections of Ireland" with all those mistakes. Anyone can use and even publish the same piece by downloading the pubic domain copy from the Royal Library in Copenhagen, thanks to Coldwell. Anyone can correct all the mistakes in that manuscript, and publish it and obtain their own copyright protection. (Just don't copy from Ophee, or he will get you.) >From what he is harping on in this thread seems to suggest he thinks he has >some exclusive rights to the piece. He doesn't. And I was under no obligation >to refer to his faulty edition, since the piece is readily available from >Copenhagen, without Ophee's heavy-handed mis-editing. - Original Message - From: Jon Murphy To: Arthur Ness ; Lute Net ; Roman Turovsky Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2005 3:37 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Leonardo Sciulzzo Being uniformed on this thread I'll say "I don't know no MO". I have some knowledge of piracy, but only on the high seas. Is it so important (and it might be for the personal income of the individuals involved) that this list be dedicated to the finding of rights for publication. If that is the case is there a list with all the same people where publishing rights are less important than the music? I am not a scholar, nor do I pretend to be. I do read things, and make opinions for myself, but I gather that a scholar must have some qualification. I don't. I shall retire to my bed at this late hour with that knowledge (where I shall console myself by eating popcorn and reading a book, the latest being Evan Thomas' writings on John Paul Jones, a flawed but seldom examined Naval Officer who basically created the US Navy. But I might choose another book on musical history, or another on Celtic Warriors. I'll know which I read when I pick it up off my bedside table. But scholar I'm not, as one needs an official imprimature for that. Best, Jon - Original Message - From: "Roman Turovsky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Arthur Ness" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Lute Net" Sent: Friday, August 12, 2005 6:49 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Leonardo Sciulzzo > > Besides, Ophee's edition has so many mistakes, I couldn't refer to it to > make my point about Beethoven influences. > MO deliberately inserts mistakes into his "editions", to track down > potential piracy. A scholarly type, isn't he? > RT > > > > ___ > $0 Web Hosting with up to 200MB web space, 1000 MB Transfer > 10 Personalized POP and Web E-mail Accounts, and much more. > Signup at www.doteasy.com > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > --
[LUTE] Re: Leonardo Sciulzzo
Being uniformed on this thread I'll say "I don't know no MO". I have some knowledge of piracy, but only on the high seas. Is it so important (and it might be for the personal income of the individuals involved) that this list be dedicated to the finding of rights for publication. If that is the case is there a list with all the same people where publishing rights are less important than the music? I am not a scholar, nor do I pretend to be. I do read things, and make opinions for myself, but I gather that a scholar must have some qualification. I don't. I shall retire to my bed at this late hour with that knowledge (where I shall console myself by eating popcorn and reading a book, the latest being Evan Thomas' writings on John Paul Jones, a flawed but seldom examined Naval Officer who basically created the US Navy. But I might choose another book on musical history, or another on Celtic Warriors. I'll know which I read when I pick it up off my bedside table. But scholar I'm not, as one needs an official imprimature for that. Best, Jon - Original Message - From: "Roman Turovsky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Arthur Ness" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Lute Net" Sent: Friday, August 12, 2005 6:49 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Leonardo Sciulzzo > > Besides, Ophee's edition has so many mistakes, I couldn't refer to it to > make my point about Beethoven influences. > MO deliberately inserts mistakes into his "editions", to track down > potential piracy. A scholarly type, isn't he? > RT > > > > ___ > $0 Web Hosting with up to 200MB web space, 1000 MB Transfer > 10 Personalized POP and Web E-mail Accounts, and much more. > Signup at www.doteasy.com > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > >
[LUTE] Re: Leonardo Sciulzzo
> To present this as your recent find, when you knew damn well that I > published this piece in paper format in 1984, and when it ran out of > print, I posted it on line in 1997, at which time you chose to > criticize it on RMCG, in other words, you knew that it was there, is > nothing short of a scandalous usurpation of my work. MO, your nipping at Arthur's soles is not getting you anywhere. RT ___ $0 Web Hosting with up to 200MB web space, 1000 MB Transfer 10 Personalized POP and Web E-mail Accounts, and much more. Signup at www.doteasy.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Leonardo Sciulzzo
>Fri, 12 Aug 2005 15:28:06 -0700 Arthur Ness wrote: > >I really dislike seeing my words misrepresented on these pages, >first by Thames/Haskins, and now Ophee. My sympathy to you. It is indeed difficult to see one's words misrepresented. It is even more difficult to see complete distortion and misrepresentations, not to mention deliberate falsification of historically relevant data being posted on a public forum by people who should have known better, and should have had some measure of shame before posting. A discussion of one of your recent capers in this direction is on the Spanish language forum Guitarra.artelinkado at: http://tinyurl.com/7fj54 Ah, you do not know Spanish all that well? Ask Roman to translate. He knows all the languages. > > >Since my remarks are quite different from those of Ophee and >Stenstadvold, they do not constitute plagiarism. Let's get to the misrepresentation issue first, since you are so upset about misrepresentations. Earlier today you said: >I found the piece. It's "Recollections of Ireland" by Leonardo Schultz >(Op.41). It's RiBs ms244c in that immense collection of guitar music at the >Royal Library in Copenhagen To present this as your recent find, when you knew damn well that I published this piece in paper format in 1984, and when it ran out of print, I posted it on line in 1997, at which time you chose to criticize it on RMCG, in other words, you knew that it was there, is nothing short of a scandalous usurpation of my work. You found nothing. It was presented to you on a silver platter by myself, not only through my publication of the piece, but also through my publication of the R&BS catalog. You may not like my edition, which is your right, and you may very well do one all by yourself from scratch, but you cannot ignore my work and pretend it did not exist. People are getting thrown out of graduate school on a lot less than that. >Besides, Ophee's edition has so many mistakes, I couldn't refer to >it to make my point about Beethoven influences. An interesting point but hardly earth shaking. Schulz was born in Vienna when Beethoven was still alive, so it does not take rocket science to assume a Beethoven influence, but it is a good question if the influence was on Schulz, or on the copyist J.G. Holm sometimes in the 1880s. You do not know that, and I do not know that and to make the assertion of a Beethoven influence on the basis of such an amateurish piece of copyist work, is to beg the question of your understanding of basic paleography. As for the mistakes in my edition: since the J.G. Holm abschrift from which I worked is now available for free download, anybody can compare the two and reach their own conclusions. I am not even prepared to argue with you which are the mistakes you referring to, since no one had ever seen the actual original copy by Schulz himself. > Something neither Ophee or E.S. mention. Of course we did not, because both of us, as much as we disagreed with each other, knew damn well that Beethoven was not even in the picture and to bring him in here could only be a figment of a very fertile imagination. > >I'll stand on my F naturals, which both MO and ES turn to F sharps. My original printed edition did have the F naturals, and that was the point on which Erik criticized it. Eventually, in our discussions on RMCG, you were the one who told me (Remember, all of this is still on-line in the Google archives of RMCG) that Erik was right and I was wrong, and I should put the sharp back in. As I explain in my on-line article, I eventually made the change not because of what you and Erik said, but for my own reasons. I any case, the critical apparatus attached to the edition clearly spells out the available choices and each guitarist can make up his or her mind without being spoon-fed by you or by me. But now that I got your attention: can you please tell me where you got the spelling Leonardo Schultz from? I am listening. Intently. Matanya Ophee Editions Orphe'e, Inc., 1240 Clubview Blvd. N. Columbus, OH 43235-1226 Phone: 614-846-9517 Fax: 614-846-9794 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.orphee.com http://www.livejournal.com/users/matanya/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Leonardo Sciulzzo
> Besides, Ophee's edition has so many mistakes, I couldn't refer to it to make my point about Beethoven influences. MO deliberately inserts mistakes into his "editions", to track down potential piracy. A scholarly type, isn't he? RT ___ $0 Web Hosting with up to 200MB web space, 1000 MB Transfer 10 Personalized POP and Web E-mail Accounts, and much more. Signup at www.doteasy.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Leonardo Sciulzzo
I really dislike seeing my words misrepresented on these pages, first by Thames/Haskins, and now Ophee. Since my remarks are quite different from those of Ophee and Stenstadvold, they do not constitute plagiarism. Besides, Ophee's edition has so many mistakes, I couldn't refer to it to make my point about Beethoven influences. Something neither Ophee or E.S. mention. I'll stand on my F naturals, which both MO and ES turn to F sharps. - Original Message - From: Roman Turovsky To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, August 12, 2005 6:18 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Leonardo Sciulzzo > IOW, you are assuming that a simple discussion of plagiarism, on > which there is no question, would necessarily deteriorate in this > forum into personal insults and name calling. You are right, and > Roman Turovsky did not waste any time changing the subject into a > personal attack on me and on my day job as a music publisher. But the > issue for me is real: if Arthur Ness had included the information he > ripped off my web site in a school paper, a scholarly article, or a > published book, he would have been tarred and feathered and > ostracized forever as a scholar. But in this forum, so it seems, he > can get away with anything. Yo've got that wrong. THIS IS ONE FORUM WHERE "MO" CANNOT GET AWAY WITH HIS USUAL "ANYTHING". > The issue here is that Leonhard Schulz left Vienna at the tender age > of 14, never to return, and spent most of his adult life in England > where he died in 1860. The number of newspaper reviews of his > concerts all over Europe, are far larger than the number of reviews > of all his contemporaries combined, and none of them, absolutely none > of them, use an Italianized Leonardo. The only place the name appears > in this spelling is in the 1934 Diccionario of Domingo Prat, in which > _all_ European names have been translated into their Spanish > equivalents. To use this spelling in the context of a discussion in > English, is to insinuate a false image of this talented guitarist Your little "invective" has as much relevance on this forum as your daughter's Moroccan eggplant (while the world knows that only Arabs can be trusted with eggplant preparation..) RT ___ $0 Web Hosting with up to 200MB web space, 1000 MB Transfer 10 Personalized POP and Web E-mail Accounts, and much more. Signup at www.doteasy.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[LUTE] Re: Leonardo Sciulzzo
Howard Posner wrote: >Get your tickets to this flame war early... IOW, you are assuming that a simple discussion of plagiarism, on which there is no question, would necessarily deteriorate in this forum into personal insults and name calling. You are right, and Roman Turovsky did not waste any time changing the subject into a personal attack on me and on my day job as a music publisher. But the issue for me is real: if Arthur Ness had included the information he ripped off my web site in a school paper, a scholarly article, or a published book, he would have been tarred and feathered and ostracized forever as a scholar. But in this forum, so it seems, he can get away with anything. Sorry, but I do not buy the notion that anyone's reputation and standing is a good justification for usurping the work of others. > >Matanio Opheo wrote: If you want to follow Arthur's Italianizations, Matanya should be rendered as Teodoro or Matteo. There is no Italianization possibly for Ophee, since this is a transliteration of a made up Hebrew word. >>If you are saying that some Austrians used Italianized names, you are >>breaking the lock on an open door. We know that already. If you >>intimate that just because one Austrian football coach working in >>Italy had an Italianized name, then an Atrian guitarist who was >>born in 1818 and was never in Italy could also have an Italianized >>name, without any evidence that he was so called, then allow me to >>introduce you to Giovanni Sebastiano Bach, Francesco Haydn, Roberto >>Schumann, Francesco Dolcevillico (Franz Suessmayr) and Federico Handel. > >I don't know about them, but Beethoven's original title page for his >third symphony said, in his handwriting: > >Sinfonia Grande >Intitolata Buonaparte > > del Sigr > >Luigi van Beethoven I can bring thousands of other similar examples and they have no bearing at all on the issue at hand. The phenomenon of the use of the Italian language by musicians at the turn of the 19th century, not only in Austria but all over Europe, is so well known, it would be to belabor the point, or, to use RT's example, to break the lock on an open door. The issue here is that Leonhard Schulz left Vienna at the tender age of 14, never to return, and spent most of his adult life in England where he died in 1860. The number of newspaper reviews of his concerts all over Europe, are far larger than the number of reviews of all his contemporaries combined, and none of them, absolutely none of them, use an Italianized Leonardo. The only place the name appears in this spelling is in the 1934 Diccionario of Domingo Prat, in which _all_ European names have been translated into their Spanish equivalents. To use this spelling in the context of a discussion in English, is to insinuate a false image of this talented guitarist Matanya Ophee Editions Orphe'e, Inc., 1240 Clubview Blvd. N. Columbus, OH 43235-1226 Phone: 614-846-9517 Fax: 614-846-9794 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.orphee.com http://www.livejournal.com/users/matanya/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Leonardo Sciulzzo
At 04:00 PM 8/12/2005, Alain Veylit <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >Personally, I think that Michael Thames and Matanya Ophee are one and >the same person - the timing is just too weird: one goes, the other one >arrives... >But I don't recall M.O. mentioning being a luthier or M.T. mentioning >publishing. Maybe it's a case of split personality? Cute, but does not adequately explains the flame war last year between me and Michael Thames regarding printed facsimiles, in which, it so appeared, Michael and Roman joined forces to denounce this money grabbing filthy merchant MO, who so much as expects to be paid for his work. It was with a certain degree of amusement that I have been reading Michael's tribulations with Roman more recently. I could have come to his assistance, but frankly, I decided to let him stew in the realization that siding with RT against MO, is no insurance against the venom of this viper. Anyway, the issue here is not RT, but Arturo Ness, Esq. Matanya Ophee Editions Orphe'e, Inc., 1240 Clubview Blvd. N. Columbus, OH 43235-1226 Phone: 614-846-9517 Fax: 614-846-9794 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.orphee.com http://www.livejournal.com/users/matanya/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Leonardo Sciulzzo
Personally, I think that Michael Thames and Matanya Ophee are one and the same person - the timing is just too weird: one goes, the other one arrives... But I don't recall M.O. mentioning being a luthier or M.T. mentioning publishing. Maybe it's a case of split personality? Alain Howard Posner wrote: >Get your tickets to this flame war early... > >Matanio Opheo wrote: > > > >>If you are saying that some Austrians used Italianized names, you are >>breaking the lock on an open door. We know that already. If you >>intimate that just because one Austrian football coach working in >>Italy had an Italianized name, then an Austrian guitarist who was >>born in 1818 and was never in Italy could also have an Italianized >>name, without any evidence that he was so called, then allow me to >>introduce you to Giovanni Sebastiano Bach, Francesco Haydn, Roberto >>Schumann, Francesco Dolcevillico (Franz Suessmayr) and Federico Handel. >> >> > >I don't know about them, but Beethoven's original title page for his >third symphony said, in his handwriting: > >Sinfonia Grande >Intitolata Buonaparte > > del Sigr > >Luigi van Beethoven > >According to Ferdinand Ries, when he learned that Napoleon had >crowned himself emperor, Beethoven scratched out "Buonaparte," >leaving a hole in the page. A new title page for the first edition >says: > > S I N F O N I AE R O I C A > >composta >per festiggiare il sovvenire di un grand Uomo > e dedicate >A Sua Altessa Serenissima in Principe di Lobkowikz > da > Luigi van Beethoven > > > >To get on or off this list see list information at >http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > >
[LUTE] Re: Leonardo Sciulzzo
Get your tickets to this flame war early... Matanio Opheo wrote: > If you are saying that some Austrians used Italianized names, you are > breaking the lock on an open door. We know that already. If you > intimate that just because one Austrian football coach working in > Italy had an Italianized name, then an Austrian guitarist who was > born in 1818 and was never in Italy could also have an Italianized > name, without any evidence that he was so called, then allow me to > introduce you to Giovanni Sebastiano Bach, Francesco Haydn, Roberto > Schumann, Francesco Dolcevillico (Franz Suessmayr) and Federico Handel. I don't know about them, but Beethoven's original title page for his third symphony said, in his handwriting: Sinfonia Grande Intitolata Buonaparte del Sigr Luigi van Beethoven According to Ferdinand Ries, when he learned that Napoleon had crowned himself emperor, Beethoven scratched out "Buonaparte," leaving a hole in the page. A new title page for the first edition says: S I N F O N I AE R O I C A composta per festiggiare il sovvenire di un grand Uomo e dedicate A Sua Altessa Serenissima in Principe di Lobkowikz da Luigi van Beethoven To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
