[LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy
Dear friends, Regarding the lute in Spain, Douglas Alton Smith, as Dan points out, supports a myth, albeit a long established one. And I must agree with Monica in that it is indeed a rather silly one. For those who can read Spanish, my book El LaA-od en la EspaA+-a Cristiana (The Lute in Christian Spain) is about to appear, published by the Spanish Sociedad de la Vihuela, el LaA-od y la Guitarra. I hope It my prove helpful in dispelling the absurd notions about the alleged mistrust of things Moorish, besides paying homage to Diana Poulton and Pepe Rey's contributions to the matter. There is plenty more information and documents about the lute in Spain than those advanced by Smith, and they attest to a widespread use of the instrument there. As a matter of fact,I had already delved into the matter in my dissertation, and arrived at the conclusion -which I now can support even better- that the truly aristocratic instrument in Renaissance Spain was not the vihuela (as it is generally held), but the lute. With best wishes, Antonio __ From: Dan Winheld dwinh...@lmi.net To: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk; Mark Seifert seifertm...@att.net Cc: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, 6 May 2015, 16:53 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy Satan's Advocate could well quote from Douglas Alton Smith's support of the rather silly myth from his work, A History of the Lute, p.221 Chapter VIII The Vihuela in Renaissance Spain: At least one musician, Rodrigo Castillo, who was denoted as a lutenist in Spanish court records of 1488, was called a vihuelist in 1500. Instrument makers who were commonly called 'laudero' in the 15th century were called 'violero' in the 16th. -And of course he's got footnotes giving documentation. For what it's worth- Can anyone corroborate, contradict? (Incidentally, I could have been legitimately labeled Lutenist in 1999 and Vihuelist in 2002). Dan On 5/6/2015 12:18 PM, Monica Hall wrote: Briefly - I think the idea that the Spanish didn't like the lute because it had Moorish associations is a rather silly myth. Monica - Original Message - From: Mark Seifert [1]seifertm...@att.net To: Ron Andrico [2]praelu...@hotmail.com; Christopher Wilke [3]chriswi...@cs.dartmouth.edu; Dan Winheld [4]dwinh...@lmi.net; Rob MacKillop [5]robmackil...@gmail.com; Howard Posner [6]howardpos...@ca.rr.com; David Van Ooijen [7]davidvanooi...@gmail.com Cc: 'Lutelist' [8]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, May 06, 2015 1:51 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy Regarding the Spain versus rest-of-Europe issue ( a most fascinating topic--thanks for introducing it, Robert Barto ), English Prof Brittany Hughes said that one reason the Spanish kings/queens so brutally expelled or forced conversion on the Moors (1523 was an important date of escalation, and then the worst of the Inquisition was imposed in 1609) was that the Turks liked to raid the coast of Spain from their ships, escalating anti-Muslim hatred throughout this period. She didn't mention why the Jews were so oppressed, as they seem like innocent bystanders. I wonder if they also tried to eliminate the lute, because it was seen as a Moorish instrument, or the lute belly reminded them of something really evil, like the belly of a pregnant woman, heaven forbid. In defense of Spain, Dr. Teofilo Ruiz of UCLA in his Terror of History course said that the Spanish ended their witch hunting decades before England and Germany (and America). Maybe the adverse effects of eliminating Jews and Muslims helped them realize that getting rid of all their witches wouldn't improve anything. I had a really spooky/scary experience in 1973 after I got a minimum wage job vacuuming dust off the books in the dark stacks of Widener Library (built after the Titanic went down in honor of a son of a Boston Brahmin family). Was sitting on the cold concrete floor dusting a row of books when I encountered a black leather clad tome whose binding showed one word, my last name spelled correctly, and the date 1728 in silver Gothic letters. Shocked and amazed, I pulled it out, opened it and discovered it was a baroque legal textbook discussing in incredible detail some issues regarding die Hexen. Though I was studying German at the time, I couldn't quite figure out if it covered how to identify/prosecute or how to defend/absolve the witches! There were columns and tables of criteria, and even some numbers. I suspect the botched Salem trials and executions before the turn of the century caused Germans
[LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy
It wasn't just the Church - the secular justice was equally brutal. Ever seen anyone hung, drawn and quartered? Monica - Original Message - From: Dan Winheld dwinh...@lmi.net To: theoj89...@aol.com; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, May 06, 2015 10:55 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy And the Albigensian Crusade was just as brutal. The church was already honing its skills. On 5/6/2015 2:40 PM, theoj89...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu wrote: Wow, the (Spanish) Inquisition was rather mild ? I was under the impression that it was rather brutal. Emperor Rudolf II spent his childhood with relatives in Spain and was so abhorred by the torutre and murder of non Christians that, when he was Emperor he assured religious tolerance in his realm. Are you sure you are not referring to the Monty Python version of the Spanish Inquisition (Ge the comfy chair!). trj -Original Message- From: r.turovsky r.turov...@gmail.com To: lute lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wed, May 6, 2015 5:07 pm Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy Mark, there are a lot of misconceptions about inquisition, it was rather mild by our 20th century standards, and most suspects were let off the hook. And no one was really eliminated in Spain: 1 in 5 male Spaniards are genetically patrilineally Jewish now, and 1 in 10 are Moors. University of Leeds did a large scale DNA study a few years ago. RT On 5/6/2015 8:51 AM, Mark Seifert wrote: Regarding the Spain versus rest-of-Europe issue ( a most fascinating topic--thanks for introducing it, Robert Barto ), English Prof Brittany Hughes said that one reason the Spanish kings/queens so brutally expelled or forced conversion on the Moors (1523 was an important date of escalation, and then the worst of the Inquisition was imposed in 1609) was that the Turks liked to raid the coast of Spain from their ships, escalating anti-Muslim hatred throughout this period. She didn't mention why the Jews were so oppressed, as they seem like innocent bystanders. I wonder if they also tried to eliminate the lute, because it was seen as a Moorish instrument, or the lute belly reminded them of something really evil, like the belly of a pregnant woman, heaven forbid. In defense of Spain, Dr. Teofilo Ruiz of UCLA in his Terror of History course said that the Spanish ended their witch hunting decades before England and Germany (and America). Maybe the adverse effects of eliminating Jews and Muslims helped them realize that getting rid of all their witches wouldn't improve anything. I had a really spooky/scary experience in 1973 after I got a minimum wage job vacuuming dust off the books in the dark stacks of Widener Library (built after the Titanic went down in honor of a son of a Boston Brahmin family). Was sitting on the cold concrete floor dusting a row of books when I encountered a black leather clad tome whose binding showed one word, my last name spelled correctly, and the date 1728 in silver Gothic letters. Shocked and amazed, I pulled it out, opened it and discovered it was a baroque legal textbook discussing in incredible detail some issues regarding die Hexen. Though I was studying German at the time, I couldn't quite figure out if it covered how to identify/prosecute or how to defend/absolve the witches! There were columns and tables of criteria, and even some numbers. I suspect the botched Salem trials and executions before the turn of the century caused Germans concern so they wanted to do a better legal job than the crazed Massachusetts clerics. Talk about having a skeleton in one's family's ancestral closet. I tried later to access that volume on line, but the book appears to be gone. Since classes had ended, I didn't take the book to my German teacher Herr Reller, but I also feared what the book might contain. I believe by 1728 the Spanish had gotten over any obsession about Hexen, but not yet England and Germany. Mark Seifert On Wednesday, May 6, 2015 4:07 AM, Mathias Roesel [1]mathias.roe...@t-online.de wrote: Read Hillary Mantel on that topic, you'll get another view. Mathias -Original Message- From: [2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[3]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Chris Barker Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2015 6:11 PM To: 'Monica Hall'; 'Edward Chrysogonus Yong' Cc: 'Lutelist' Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy I agree on Thomas Cromwell as well! Had Henry VIII not been king at that time I'd call him a thug too! Chris -Original Message- From: [4]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[5]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Monica Hall Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2015 9:19 AM To: Edward Chrysogonus Yong Cc
[LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy
Is there any evidence that the vihuela is really a Spanish invention or is it just Spanish for viola da mano? Maybe it is just another Italian thing... In that case Moors or not Moors is moot. Spanish people at the time may have been like everyone else: they prefer to think they are borrowing when they are actually stealing. And they did borrow the southern half of Italy around that time. Given the confusion between viola da mano and viola dell arco I wonder if in the taxonomy of instruments, lute did not equal round back versus viola equal flat back. It may have been that simple. Da Vinci improvised on the flat back if I recall, perhaps because it was more reminiscent of the antique lyra, so more cool... He was a bit of a snob. I have been gardening: what they sell here (California) as French thyme is not the right kind - if you want the French variety, actually buy what they sell as English thyme. Cultural misappropriations abound, as any Mexican who tastes a burrito in Los Angeles will testify. Alain On 05/06/2015 10:41 PM, Joshua Burkholder wrote: This is interesting evidence, but all it proves is that the vihuela experienced a great fashion in that period, which no one really doubts. The reasons for the vihuela’s popularity will probably always remain a matter for conjecture, but the idea that it was because of “Moorish associations” doesn’t really bear closer scrutiny, as the Christian Spanish (and other Europeans too) happily incorporated many Moorish elements in many different cultural areas, from language to cuisine, which is not surprising given the refinement and sophistication of Moorish civilization in Spain. Is there any evidence anywhere of cultural elements (not people but things) being rejected explicitly for their origins? Christian theologians such as Thomas of Aquinas even liberally used Moorish theology in is work. Joshua On 06 May 2015, at 23:53, Dan Winheld dwinh...@lmi.net wrote: Satan's Advocate could well quote from Douglas Alton Smith's support of the rather silly myth from his work, A History of the Lute, p.221 Chapter VIII The Vihuela in Renaissance Spain: At least one musician, Rodrigo Castillo, who was denoted as a lutenist in Spanish court records of 1488, was called a vihuelist in 1500. Instrument makers who were commonly called 'laudero' in the 15th century were called 'violero' in the 16th. -And of course he's got footnotes giving documentation. For what it's worth- Can anyone corroborate, contradict? (Incidentally, I could have been legitimately labeled Lutenist in 1999 and Vihuelist in 2002). Dan On 5/6/2015 12:18 PM, Monica Hall wrote: Briefly - I think the idea that the Spanish didn't like the lute because it had Moorish associations is a rather silly myth. Monica - Original Message - From: Mark Seifert seifertm...@att.net To: Ron Andrico praelu...@hotmail.com; Christopher Wilke chriswi...@cs.dartmouth.edu; Dan Winheld dwinh...@lmi.net; Rob MacKillop robmackil...@gmail.com; Howard Posner howardpos...@ca.rr.com; David Van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com Cc: 'Lutelist' lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, May 06, 2015 1:51 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy Regarding the Spain versus rest-of-Europe issue ( a most fascinating topic--thanks for introducing it, Robert Barto ), English Prof Brittany Hughes said that one reason the Spanish kings/queens so brutally expelled or forced conversion on the Moors (1523 was an important date of escalation, and then the worst of the Inquisition was imposed in 1609) was that the Turks liked to raid the coast of Spain from their ships, escalating anti-Muslim hatred throughout this period. She didn't mention why the Jews were so oppressed, as they seem like innocent bystanders. I wonder if they also tried to eliminate the lute, because it was seen as a Moorish instrument, or the lute belly reminded them of something really evil, like the belly of a pregnant woman, heaven forbid. In defense of Spain, Dr. Teofilo Ruiz of UCLA in his Terror of History course said that the Spanish ended their witch hunting decades before England and Germany (and America). Maybe the adverse effects of eliminating Jews and Muslims helped them realize that getting rid of all their witches wouldn't improve anything. I had a really spooky/scary experience in 1973 after I got a minimum wage job vacuuming dust off the books in the dark stacks of Widener Library (built after the Titanic went down in honor of a son of a Boston Brahmin family). Was sitting on the cold concrete floor dusting a row of books when I encountered a black leather clad tome whose binding showed one word, my last name spelled correctly, and the date 1728 in silver Gothic letters. Shocked and amazed, I pulled it out, opened it and discovered it was a baroque legal textbook discussing in incredible detail some issues regarding die Hexen. Though I was studying
[LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy
Jacob plays Ah Robin at the beginning of one or two episodes. The rest of the music was nondescript. MOnica - Original Message - From: Ron Andrico praelu...@hotmail.com To: Edward C. Yong edward.y...@gmail.com; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, May 07, 2015 3:45 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy Although I simply can't bear to read historical fiction, and haven't seen the televised version of Mantel's popular book, I have to say that trivial details like historical facts are often purged from any story based on historical drama in favor of popular appeal during the process of adapting for the screen. Donna read the book and found it diverting, but I simply feel cheated when I read something lacking footnotes. We slogged through most of the Tudors series (on discs from the library because we have no TV), and were so incensed over the general abuse of historical fact and the particular choice of music, that we put together a series of concerts just to right the terrible wrongs committed by the music director. We saw one small bit of the Borgias only because they used a recording by Ronn McFarlane for a scene - of course it was a piece from Attaingnant (I think) played in the background behind a scene from the 1480s, and the music can be heard faintly while Jeremy Irons is subjected to some rather embarrassing ablutions or examination before a group Vatican onlookers, all depicted as drooling thugs. We haven't seen the televised series based on Mantel's novel but I understand Jacob Heringman's playing is featured in one or more episode. Whatever the producers do to adapt historical fact to suit current public taste, at least we have to congratulate any lutenist who manages to penetrate the closed circle of Hollywood or television music directors, who seldom make tasteful choices let alone observe historical accuracy. RA Date: Thu, 7 May 2015 21:55:17 +0800 To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu From: edward.y...@gmail.com Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy Mantels about as historical as The Tudors or The Borgias Edward C. Yong edward.y...@gmail.com On 6 May 2015, at 7:04 pm, Mathias Roesel mathias.roe...@t-online.de wrote: Read Hillary Mantel on that topic, you'll get another view. Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy
Hi Antonio Yes - I read your dissertation which is why I am so knowlegible...Hope to read your book eventually. Monica - Original Message - From: Antonio Corona abcor...@cs.dartmouth.edu To: Dan Winheld dwinh...@lmi.net; Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk; Mark Seifert seifertm...@att.net Cc: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, May 07, 2015 10:20 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy Dear friends, Regarding the lute in Spain, Douglas Alton Smith, as Dan points out, supports a myth, albeit a long established one. And I must agree with Monica in that it is indeed a rather silly one. For those who can read Spanish, my book El LaA-od en la EspaA+-a Cristiana (The Lute in Christian Spain) is about to appear, published by the Spanish Sociedad de la Vihuela, el LaA-od y la Guitarra. I hope It my prove helpful in dispelling the absurd notions about the alleged mistrust of things Moorish, besides paying homage to Diana Poulton and Pepe Rey's contributions to the matter. There is plenty more information and documents about the lute in Spain than those advanced by Smith, and they attest to a widespread use of the instrument there. As a matter of fact,I had already delved into the matter in my dissertation, and arrived at the conclusion -which I now can support even better- that the truly aristocratic instrument in Renaissance Spain was not the vihuela (as it is generally held), but the lute. With best wishes, Antonio __ From: Dan Winheld dwinh...@lmi.net To: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk; Mark Seifert seifertm...@att.net Cc: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, 6 May 2015, 16:53 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy Satan's Advocate could well quote from Douglas Alton Smith's support of the rather silly myth from his work, A History of the Lute, p.221 Chapter VIII The Vihuela in Renaissance Spain: At least one musician, Rodrigo Castillo, who was denoted as a lutenist in Spanish court records of 1488, was called a vihuelist in 1500. Instrument makers who were commonly called 'laudero' in the 15th century were called 'violero' in the 16th. -And of course he's got footnotes giving documentation. For what it's worth- Can anyone corroborate, contradict? (Incidentally, I could have been legitimately labeled Lutenist in 1999 and Vihuelist in 2002). Dan On 5/6/2015 12:18 PM, Monica Hall wrote: Briefly - I think the idea that the Spanish didn't like the lute because it had Moorish associations is a rather silly myth. Monica - Original Message - From: Mark Seifert [1]seifertm...@att.net To: Ron Andrico [2]praelu...@hotmail.com; Christopher Wilke [3]chriswi...@cs.dartmouth.edu; Dan Winheld [4]dwinh...@lmi.net; Rob MacKillop [5]robmackil...@gmail.com; Howard Posner [6]howardpos...@ca.rr.com; David Van Ooijen [7]davidvanooi...@gmail.com Cc: 'Lutelist' [8]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, May 06, 2015 1:51 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy Regarding the Spain versus rest-of-Europe issue ( a most fascinating topic--thanks for introducing it, Robert Barto ), English Prof Brittany Hughes said that one reason the Spanish kings/queens so brutally expelled or forced conversion on the Moors (1523 was an important date of escalation, and then the worst of the Inquisition was imposed in 1609) was that the Turks liked to raid the coast of Spain from their ships, escalating anti-Muslim hatred throughout this period. She didn't mention why the Jews were so oppressed, as they seem like innocent bystanders. I wonder if they also tried to eliminate the lute, because it was seen as a Moorish instrument, or the lute belly reminded them of something really evil, like the belly of a pregnant woman, heaven forbid. In defense of Spain, Dr. Teofilo Ruiz of UCLA in his Terror of History course said that the Spanish ended their witch hunting decades before England and Germany (and America). Maybe the adverse effects of eliminating Jews and Muslims helped them realize that getting rid of all their witches wouldn't improve anything. I had a really spooky/scary experience in 1973 after I got a minimum wage job vacuuming dust off the books in the dark stacks of Widener Library (built after the Titanic went down in honor of a son of a Boston Brahmin family). Was sitting on the cold concrete floor dusting a row of books when I encountered a black leather clad tome whose binding showed one word, my last name spelled correctly, and the date 1728 in silver Gothic letters. Shocked and amazed, I pulled it out, opened it and discovered it was a baroque legal textbook discussing in incredible detail some issues regarding die Hexen. Though I was studying German
[LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy
Mantel’s about as historical as The Tudors or The Borgias… Edward C. Yong edward.y...@gmail.com On 6 May 2015, at 7:04 pm, Mathias Rösel mathias.roe...@t-online.de wrote: Read Hillary Mantel on that topic, you'll get another view. Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy
I don't think most historians would agree with you. Monica - Original Message - From: Mathias Rösel mathias.roe...@t-online.de To: 'Monica Hall' mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Sent: Thursday, May 07, 2015 1:04 PM Subject: RE: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy My impression is that she had quite a look into her stuff before she started to pen it down. I may be wrong, of course, but chapters and verses from those who contradict. Mantel's being a novelist doesn't mean her writing is mere and nothing else but fiction. Mathias -Original Message- From: Monica Hall [mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk] Sent: Wednesday, May 06, 2015 2:46 PM To: Mathias Rösel Cc: Lutelist Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy The purely fictional - non-historical one. - Original Message - From: Mathias Rösel mathias.roe...@t-online.de Cc: 'Lutelist' lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, May 06, 2015 12:04 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy Read Hillary Mantel on that topic, you'll get another view. Mathias -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Chris Barker Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2015 6:11 PM To: 'Monica Hall'; 'Edward Chrysogonus Yong' Cc: 'Lutelist' Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy I agree on Thomas Cromwell as well! Had Henry VIII not been king at that time I'd call him a thug too! Chris -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Monica Hall Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2015 9:19 AM To: Edward Chrysogonus Yong Cc: Lutelist Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy Yes - Simon Schama has likened Cromwell and his supporters to the Taliban in Afghanistan. They were certainly responsible for destroying some of our cultural heritage. And Thomas Cromwell a century earlier was just an avaricious thug. Monica - Original Message - From: Edward Chrysogonus Yong edward.y...@gmail.com To: Mark Wheeler l...@pantagruel.de Cc: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk; ml man...@manololaguillo.com; Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2015 10:55 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy England falling to 16th C Catholic Spain may have been better for music and culture than falling to Cromwell and the Puritans, just saying... τούτο ηλεκτρονικόν ταχυδρομείον εκ είΦωνου εμεύ επέμφθη. Hæ litteræ electronicæ ab iPhono missæ sunt. 此電子郵件發送于自吾iPhone。 This e-mail was sent from my iPhone. On 5 May 2015, at 4:40 pm, Mark Wheeler l...@pantagruel.de wrote: Regarding Elizabeth I's racism here is an interesting article https://www.press.jhu.edu/timeline/sel/Bartels_2006.pdf What Monica says about not judging the past by an inappropriate set of criteria is true and is also appropriate to the racism of the English Queen. It may not be PC, but I personally am exceedingly happy that England did not fall to 16th century Catholic Spain! All the best Mark On May 5, 2015, at 9:41 AM, Monica Hall wrote: Yes - you are right. We shouldn't judge the past by an inappropriate set of criteria. Spain has got a bad press in the English speaking world because most of us study history from an English/Northern Europe point of view. Queen Elizabeth I was a racist - want to expel all coloured people from England. So was Shakespeare. Jews are always villains. Monica briefly - Original Message - From: ml man...@manololaguillo.com To: LUTELIST List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, May 04, 2015 8:53 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy Spain was not an exception regarding free vs. conservative thinking. I mean, Spain was not more conservative than England or France, in regard to what is right or wrong in religion, morality (for instance sexuality.) and so on. Fear was (and is) the explication of nearly everything. Perhaps Jean Delumeau (La peur en Occident, Fayard, 1978) hits the nail when he says, concluding his wonderful book, that Satan was seen everywhere. He is the enemy, he inspires the turks, the witches, the heresies, the plagues, etc. When the attention is focused on jews and 'moriscos' (that is what happens in Spain), the witches are not so closely monitorized. In other european countries, not so much worried with jews, heresies (here the protestants, there the catholics) were prosecuted instead. Only two countries, Delumeau continues, escaped from this general fear: Poland and Italy. The latter perhaps because of being more pagan than his neighbors (that was Erasmus' opinion), or because the church was controlling it better than elsewhere. In any case, it seems that Italy lost his mind because of these fears in a lesser degree than other countries. But. if we read Carlo Ginzburg's Il formaggio e i fermi. Il cosmo di un mugnaio del '500 (1976), a seminal work in micro
[LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy
Although I simply can't bear to read historical fiction, and haven't seen the televised version of Mantel's popular book, I have to say that trivial details like historical facts are often purged from any story based on historical drama in favor of popular appeal during the process of adapting for the screen. Donna read the book and found it diverting, but I simply feel cheated when I read something lacking footnotes. We slogged through most of the Tudors series (on discs from the library because we have no TV), and were so incensed over the general abuse of historical fact and the particular choice of music, that we put together a series of concerts just to right the terrible wrongs committed by the music director. We saw one small bit of the Borgias only because they used a recording by Ronn McFarlane for a scene - of course it was a piece from Attaingnant (I think) played in the background behind a scene from the 1480s, and the music can be heard faintly while Jeremy Irons is subjected to some rather embarrassing ablutions or examination before a group Vatican onlookers, all depicted as drooling thugs. We haven't seen the televised series based on Mantel's novel but I understand Jacob Heringman's playing is featured in one or more episode. Whatever the producers do to adapt historical fact to suit current public taste, at least we have to congratulate any lutenist who manages to penetrate the closed circle of Hollywood or television music directors, who seldom make tasteful choices let alone observe historical accuracy. RA Date: Thu, 7 May 2015 21:55:17 +0800 To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu From: edward.y...@gmail.com Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy Mantels about as historical as The Tudors or The Borgias Edward C. Yong edward.y...@gmail.com On 6 May 2015, at 7:04 pm, Mathias Roesel mathias.roe...@t-online.de wrote: Read Hillary Mantel on that topic, you'll get another view. Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy
Star Wars was historical fiction, too. It happened a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away, remember? In all seriousness, the genre should really be called fictionalized history rather than historical fiction. Chris [1]Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone At May 7, 2015, 10:49:10 AM, Ron Andrico'praelu...@hotmail.com' wrote: Although I simply can't bear to read historical fiction, and haven't seen the televised version of Mantel's popular book, I have to say that trivial details like historical facts are often purged from any story based on historical drama in favor of popular appeal during the process of adapting for the screen. Donna read the book and found it diverting, but I simply feel cheated when I read something lacking footnotes. We slogged through most of the Tudors series (on discs from the library because we have no TV), and were so incensed over the general abuse of historical fact and the particular choice of music, that we put together a series of concerts just to right the terrible wrongs committed by the music director. We saw one small bit of the Borgias only because they used a recording by Ronn McFarlane for a scene - of course it was a piece from Attaingnant (I think) played in the background behind a scene from the 1480s, and the music can be heard faintly while Jeremy Irons is subjected to some rather embarrassing ablutions or examination before a group Vatican onlookers, all depicted as drooling thugs. We haven't seen the televised series based on Mantel's novel but I understand Jacob Heringman's playing is featured in one or more episode. Whatever the producers do to adapt historical fact to suit current public taste, at least we have to congratulate any lutenist who manages to penetrate the closed circle of Hollywood or television music directors, who seldom make tasteful choices let alone observe historical accuracy. RA Date: Thu, 7 May 2015 21:55:17 +0800 To: [2]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu From: [3]edward.y...@gmail.com Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy Mantels about as historical as The Tudors or The Borgias Edward C. Yong [4]edward.y...@gmail.com On 6 May 2015, at 7:04 pm, Mathias Roesel [5]mathias.roe...@t-online.de wrote: Read Hillary Mantel on that topic, you'll get another view. Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at [6]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. https://yho.com/footer0 2. javascript:return 3. javascript:return 4. javascript:return 5. javascript:return 6. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy
Read Hillary Mantel on that topic, you'll get another view. Mathias -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Chris Barker Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2015 6:11 PM To: 'Monica Hall'; 'Edward Chrysogonus Yong' Cc: 'Lutelist' Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy I agree on Thomas Cromwell as well! Had Henry VIII not been king at that time I'd call him a thug too! Chris -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Monica Hall Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2015 9:19 AM To: Edward Chrysogonus Yong Cc: Lutelist Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy Yes - Simon Schama has likened Cromwell and his supporters to the Taliban in Afghanistan. They were certainly responsible for destroying some of our cultural heritage. And Thomas Cromwell a century earlier was just an avaricious thug. Monica - Original Message - From: Edward Chrysogonus Yong edward.y...@gmail.com To: Mark Wheeler l...@pantagruel.de Cc: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk; ml man...@manololaguillo.com; Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2015 10:55 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy England falling to 16th C Catholic Spain may have been better for music and culture than falling to Cromwell and the Puritans, just saying... τούτο ηλεκτρονικόν ταχυδρομείον εκ είΦωνου εμεύ επέμφθη. Hæ litteræ electronicæ ab iPhono missæ sunt. 此電子郵件發送于自吾iPhone。 This e-mail was sent from my iPhone. On 5 May 2015, at 4:40 pm, Mark Wheeler l...@pantagruel.de wrote: Regarding Elizabeth I's racism here is an interesting article https://www.press.jhu.edu/timeline/sel/Bartels_2006.pdf What Monica says about not judging the past by an inappropriate set of criteria is true and is also appropriate to the racism of the English Queen. It may not be PC, but I personally am exceedingly happy that England did not fall to 16th century Catholic Spain! All the best Mark On May 5, 2015, at 9:41 AM, Monica Hall wrote: Yes - you are right. We shouldn't judge the past by an inappropriate set of criteria. Spain has got a bad press in the English speaking world because most of us study history from an English/Northern Europe point of view. Queen Elizabeth I was a racist - want to expel all coloured people from England. So was Shakespeare. Jews are always villains. Monica briefly - Original Message - From: ml man...@manololaguillo.com To: LUTELIST List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, May 04, 2015 8:53 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy Spain was not an exception regarding free vs. conservative thinking. I mean, Spain was not more conservative than England or France, in regard to what is right or wrong in religion, morality (for instance sexuality.) and so on. Fear was (and is) the explication of nearly everything. Perhaps Jean Delumeau (La peur en Occident, Fayard, 1978) hits the nail when he says, concluding his wonderful book, that Satan was seen everywhere. He is the enemy, he inspires the turks, the witches, the heresies, the plagues, etc. When the attention is focused on jews and 'moriscos' (that is what happens in Spain), the witches are not so closely monitorized. In other european countries, not so much worried with jews, heresies (here the protestants, there the catholics) were prosecuted instead. Only two countries, Delumeau continues, escaped from this general fear: Poland and Italy. The latter perhaps because of being more pagan than his neighbors (that was Erasmus' opinion), or because the church was controlling it better than elsewhere. In any case, it seems that Italy lost his mind because of these fears in a lesser degree than other countries. But. if we read Carlo Ginzburg's Il formaggio e i fermi. Il cosmo di un mugnaio del '500 (1976), a seminal work in micro-history, Italy suffered under the inquisition as well. Galileo's case is of course very well known. It's all too easy to project from our present time to that past. Regards from Barcelona, dear lute friends. :-) Manolo El 04/05/2015, a las 19:27, Sean Smith lutesm...@mac.com escribió: That's what I'm thinking, too. The very first piece in Dalza's book is the Caldibi Castigliano and it certainly points to a refined and complex idiom unlike anything else in his Ferrerese or Venetiana dance cycles. Sean On May 4, 2015, at 9:52 AM, Gary Boye wrote: A word of caution here: We are making judgements based primarily on the printed evidence (i.e., the 7 main vihuela tablatures); there was a great deal of music (most of it!) that took place in Spain outside of these formal, published works. Publishing was a big deal in the 16th century. Getting an imprimatur from a conservative and literally
[LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy
The purely fictional - non-historical one. - Original Message - From: Mathias Rösel mathias.roe...@t-online.de Cc: 'Lutelist' lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, May 06, 2015 12:04 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy Read Hillary Mantel on that topic, you'll get another view. Mathias -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Chris Barker Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2015 6:11 PM To: 'Monica Hall'; 'Edward Chrysogonus Yong' Cc: 'Lutelist' Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy I agree on Thomas Cromwell as well! Had Henry VIII not been king at that time I'd call him a thug too! Chris -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Monica Hall Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2015 9:19 AM To: Edward Chrysogonus Yong Cc: Lutelist Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy Yes - Simon Schama has likened Cromwell and his supporters to the Taliban in Afghanistan. They were certainly responsible for destroying some of our cultural heritage. And Thomas Cromwell a century earlier was just an avaricious thug. Monica - Original Message - From: Edward Chrysogonus Yong edward.y...@gmail.com To: Mark Wheeler l...@pantagruel.de Cc: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk; ml man...@manololaguillo.com; Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2015 10:55 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy England falling to 16th C Catholic Spain may have been better for music and culture than falling to Cromwell and the Puritans, just saying... τούτο ηλεκτρονικόν ταχυδρομείον εκ είΦωνου εμεύ επέμφθη. Hæ litteræ electronicæ ab iPhono missæ sunt. 此電子郵件發送于自吾iPhone。 This e-mail was sent from my iPhone. On 5 May 2015, at 4:40 pm, Mark Wheeler l...@pantagruel.de wrote: Regarding Elizabeth I's racism here is an interesting article https://www.press.jhu.edu/timeline/sel/Bartels_2006.pdf What Monica says about not judging the past by an inappropriate set of criteria is true and is also appropriate to the racism of the English Queen. It may not be PC, but I personally am exceedingly happy that England did not fall to 16th century Catholic Spain! All the best Mark On May 5, 2015, at 9:41 AM, Monica Hall wrote: Yes - you are right. We shouldn't judge the past by an inappropriate set of criteria. Spain has got a bad press in the English speaking world because most of us study history from an English/Northern Europe point of view. Queen Elizabeth I was a racist - want to expel all coloured people from England. So was Shakespeare. Jews are always villains. Monica briefly - Original Message - From: ml man...@manololaguillo.com To: LUTELIST List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, May 04, 2015 8:53 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy Spain was not an exception regarding free vs. conservative thinking. I mean, Spain was not more conservative than England or France, in regard to what is right or wrong in religion, morality (for instance sexuality.) and so on. Fear was (and is) the explication of nearly everything. Perhaps Jean Delumeau (La peur en Occident, Fayard, 1978) hits the nail when he says, concluding his wonderful book, that Satan was seen everywhere. He is the enemy, he inspires the turks, the witches, the heresies, the plagues, etc. When the attention is focused on jews and 'moriscos' (that is what happens in Spain), the witches are not so closely monitorized. In other european countries, not so much worried with jews, heresies (here the protestants, there the catholics) were prosecuted instead. Only two countries, Delumeau continues, escaped from this general fear: Poland and Italy. The latter perhaps because of being more pagan than his neighbors (that was Erasmus' opinion), or because the church was controlling it better than elsewhere. In any case, it seems that Italy lost his mind because of these fears in a lesser degree than other countries. But. if we read Carlo Ginzburg's Il formaggio e i fermi. Il cosmo di un mugnaio del '500 (1976), a seminal work in micro-history, Italy suffered under the inquisition as well. Galileo's case is of course very well known. It's all too easy to project from our present time to that past. Regards from Barcelona, dear lute friends. :-) Manolo El 04/05/2015, a las 19:27, Sean Smith lutesm...@mac.com escribió: That's what I'm thinking, too. The very first piece in Dalza's book is the Caldibi Castigliano and it certainly points to a refined and complex idiom unlike anything else in his Ferrerese or Venetiana dance cycles. Sean On May 4, 2015, at 9:52 AM, Gary Boye wrote: A word of caution here: We are making judgements based primarily on the printed evidence (i.e., the 7 main vihuela tablatures); there was a great deal of music (most of it!) that took place in Spain outside of these formal, published works
[LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy
Regarding the Spain versus rest-of-Europe issue ( a most fascinating topic--thanks for introducing it, Robert Barto ), English Prof Brittany Hughes said that one reason the Spanish kings/queens so brutally expelled or forced conversion on the Moors (1523 was an important date of escalation, and then the worst of the Inquisition was imposed in 1609) was that the Turks liked to raid the coast of Spain from their ships, escalating anti-Muslim hatred throughout this period. She didn't mention why the Jews were so oppressed, as they seem like innocent bystanders. I wonder if they also tried to eliminate the lute, because it was seen as a Moorish instrument, or the lute belly reminded them of something really evil, like the belly of a pregnant woman, heaven forbid. In defense of Spain, Dr. Teofilo Ruiz of UCLA in his Terror of History course said that the Spanish ended their witch hunting decades before England and Germany (and America). Maybe the adverse effects of eliminating Jews and Muslims helped them realize that getting rid of all their witches wouldn't improve anything. I had a really spooky/scary experience in 1973 after I got a minimum wage job vacuuming dust off the books in the dark stacks of Widener Library (built after the Titanic went down in honor of a son of a Boston Brahmin family). Was sitting on the cold concrete floor dusting a row of books when I encountered a black leather clad tome whose binding showed one word, my last name spelled correctly, and the date 1728 in silver Gothic letters. Shocked and amazed, I pulled it out, opened it and discovered it was a baroque legal textbook discussing in incredible detail some issues regarding die Hexen. Though I was studying German at the time, I couldn't quite figure out if it covered how to identify/prosecute or how to defend/absolve the witches! There were columns and tables of criteria, and even some numbers. I suspect the botched Salem trials and executions before the turn of the century caused Germans concern so they wanted to do a better legal job than the crazed Massachusetts clerics. Talk about having a skeleton in one's family's ancestral closet. I tried later to access that volume on line, but the book appears to be gone. Since classes had ended, I didn't take the book to my German teacher Herr Reller, but I also feared what the book might contain. I believe by 1728 the Spanish had gotten over any obsession about Hexen, but not yet England and Germany. Mark Seifert On Wednesday, May 6, 2015 4:07 AM, Mathias RAP:sel mathias.roe...@t-online.de wrote: Read Hillary Mantel on that topic, you'll get another view. Mathias -Original Message- From: [1]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Chris Barker Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2015 6:11 PM To: 'Monica Hall'; 'Edward Chrysogonus Yong' Cc: 'Lutelist' Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy I agree on Thomas Cromwell as well! Had Henry VIII not been king at that time I'd call him a thug too! Chris -Original Message- From: [3]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[4]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Monica Hall Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2015 9:19 AM To: Edward Chrysogonus Yong Cc: Lutelist Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy Yes - Simon Schama has likened Cromwell and his supporters to the Taliban in Afghanistan. They were certainly responsible for destroying some of our cultural heritage. And Thomas Cromwell a century earlier was just an avaricious thug. Monica - Original Message - From: Edward Chrysogonus Yong [5]edward.y...@gmail.com To: Mark Wheeler [6]l...@pantagruel.de Cc: Monica Hall [7]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk; ml [8]man...@manololaguillo.com; Lutelist [9]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2015 10:55 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy England falling to 16th C Catholic Spain may have been better for music and culture than falling to Cromwell and the Puritans, just saying... II?III? I.IIuI-oIII?I 1/2I^1I-oII 1/2 II+-III'II?I 1/4IuI-I?I 1/2 IuI-o IuI-I|II 1/2I?I IuI 1/4IuI IuIII 1/4II,I.. HA| litterA| electronicA| ab iPhono missA| sunt. aeCUReaaeuaeP:c, 1/4eae-oe-aaa 3/4iPhonea This e-mail was sent from my iPhone. On 5 May 2015, at 4:40 pm, Mark Wheeler [10]l...@pantagruel.de wrote: Regarding Elizabeth I's racism here is an interesting article [11]https://www.press.jhu.edu/timeline/sel/Bartels_2006.pdf What Monica says about not judging the past by an inappropriate set of criteria is true and is also appropriate to the racism of the English Queen. It may not be PC, but I personally am exceedingly
[LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy
And the Albigensian Crusade was just as brutal. The church was already honing its skills. On 5/6/2015 2:40 PM, theoj89...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu wrote: Wow, the (Spanish) Inquisition was rather mild ? I was under the impression that it was rather brutal. Emperor Rudolf II spent his childhood with relatives in Spain and was so abhorred by the torutre and murder of non Christians that, when he was Emperor he assured religious tolerance in his realm. Are you sure you are not referring to the Monty Python version of the Spanish Inquisition (Ge the comfy chair!). trj -Original Message- From: r.turovsky r.turov...@gmail.com To: lute lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wed, May 6, 2015 5:07 pm Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy Mark, there are a lot of misconceptions about inquisition, it was rather mild by our 20th century standards, and most suspects were let off the hook. And no one was really eliminated in Spain: 1 in 5 male Spaniards are genetically patrilineally Jewish now, and 1 in 10 are Moors. University of Leeds did a large scale DNA study a few years ago. RT On 5/6/2015 8:51 AM, Mark Seifert wrote: Regarding the Spain versus rest-of-Europe issue ( a most fascinating topic--thanks for introducing it, Robert Barto ), English Prof Brittany Hughes said that one reason the Spanish kings/queens so brutally expelled or forced conversion on the Moors (1523 was an important date of escalation, and then the worst of the Inquisition was imposed in 1609) was that the Turks liked to raid the coast of Spain from their ships, escalating anti-Muslim hatred throughout this period. She didn't mention why the Jews were so oppressed, as they seem like innocent bystanders. I wonder if they also tried to eliminate the lute, because it was seen as a Moorish instrument, or the lute belly reminded them of something really evil, like the belly of a pregnant woman, heaven forbid. In defense of Spain, Dr. Teofilo Ruiz of UCLA in his Terror of History course said that the Spanish ended their witch hunting decades before England and Germany (and America). Maybe the adverse effects of eliminating Jews and Muslims helped them realize that getting rid of all their witches wouldn't improve anything. I had a really spooky/scary experience in 1973 after I got a minimum wage job vacuuming dust off the books in the dark stacks of Widener Library (built after the Titanic went down in honor of a son of a Boston Brahmin family). Was sitting on the cold concrete floor dusting a row of books when I encountered a black leather clad tome whose binding showed one word, my last name spelled correctly, and the date 1728 in silver Gothic letters. Shocked and amazed, I pulled it out, opened it and discovered it was a baroque legal textbook discussing in incredible detail some issues regarding die Hexen. Though I was studying German at the time, I couldn't quite figure out if it covered how to identify/prosecute or how to defend/absolve the witches! There were columns and tables of criteria, and even some numbers. I suspect the botched Salem trials and executions before the turn of the century caused Germans concern so they wanted to do a better legal job than the crazed Massachusetts clerics. Talk about having a skeleton in one's family's ancestral closet. I tried later to access that volume on line, but the book appears to be gone. Since classes had ended, I didn't take the book to my German teacher Herr Reller, but I also feared what the book might contain. I believe by 1728 the Spanish had gotten over any obsession about Hexen, but not yet England and Germany. Mark Seifert On Wednesday, May 6, 2015 4:07 AM, Mathias Roesel [1]mathias.roe...@t-online.de wrote: Read Hillary Mantel on that topic, you'll get another view. Mathias -Original Message- From: [2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[3]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Chris Barker Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2015 6:11 PM To: 'Monica Hall'; 'Edward Chrysogonus Yong' Cc: 'Lutelist' Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy I agree on Thomas Cromwell as well! Had Henry VIII not been king at that time I'd call him a thug too! Chris -Original Message- From: [4]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[5]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Monica Hall Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2015 9:19 AM To: Edward Chrysogonus Yong Cc: Lutelist Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy Yes - Simon Schama has likened Cromwell and his supporters to the Taliban in Afghanistan. They were certainly responsible for destroying some of our cultural heritage. And Thomas Cromwell a century earlier was just an avaricious thug
[LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy
Satan's Advocate could well quote from Douglas Alton Smith's support of the rather silly myth from his work, A History of the Lute, p.221 Chapter VIII The Vihuela in Renaissance Spain: At least one musician, Rodrigo Castillo, who was denoted as a lutenist in Spanish court records of 1488, was called a vihuelist in 1500. Instrument makers who were commonly called 'laudero' in the 15th century were called 'violero' in the 16th. -And of course he's got footnotes giving documentation. For what it's worth- Can anyone corroborate, contradict? (Incidentally, I could have been legitimately labeled Lutenist in 1999 and Vihuelist in 2002). Dan On 5/6/2015 12:18 PM, Monica Hall wrote: Briefly - I think the idea that the Spanish didn't like the lute because it had Moorish associations is a rather silly myth. Monica - Original Message - From: Mark Seifert seifertm...@att.net To: Ron Andrico praelu...@hotmail.com; Christopher Wilke chriswi...@cs.dartmouth.edu; Dan Winheld dwinh...@lmi.net; Rob MacKillop robmackil...@gmail.com; Howard Posner howardpos...@ca.rr.com; David Van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com Cc: 'Lutelist' lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, May 06, 2015 1:51 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy Regarding the Spain versus rest-of-Europe issue ( a most fascinating topic--thanks for introducing it, Robert Barto ), English Prof Brittany Hughes said that one reason the Spanish kings/queens so brutally expelled or forced conversion on the Moors (1523 was an important date of escalation, and then the worst of the Inquisition was imposed in 1609) was that the Turks liked to raid the coast of Spain from their ships, escalating anti-Muslim hatred throughout this period. She didn't mention why the Jews were so oppressed, as they seem like innocent bystanders. I wonder if they also tried to eliminate the lute, because it was seen as a Moorish instrument, or the lute belly reminded them of something really evil, like the belly of a pregnant woman, heaven forbid. In defense of Spain, Dr. Teofilo Ruiz of UCLA in his Terror of History course said that the Spanish ended their witch hunting decades before England and Germany (and America). Maybe the adverse effects of eliminating Jews and Muslims helped them realize that getting rid of all their witches wouldn't improve anything. I had a really spooky/scary experience in 1973 after I got a minimum wage job vacuuming dust off the books in the dark stacks of Widener Library (built after the Titanic went down in honor of a son of a Boston Brahmin family). Was sitting on the cold concrete floor dusting a row of books when I encountered a black leather clad tome whose binding showed one word, my last name spelled correctly, and the date 1728 in silver Gothic letters. Shocked and amazed, I pulled it out, opened it and discovered it was a baroque legal textbook discussing in incredible detail some issues regarding die Hexen. Though I was studying German at the time, I couldn't quite figure out if it covered how to identify/prosecute or how to defend/absolve the witches! There were columns and tables of criteria, and even some numbers. I suspect the botched Salem trials and executions before the turn of the century caused Germans concern so they wanted to do a better legal job than the crazed Massachusetts clerics. Talk about having a skeleton in one's family's ancestral closet. I tried later to access that volume on line, but the book appears to be gone. Since classes had ended, I didn't take the book to my German teacher Herr Reller, but I also feared what the book might contain. I believe by 1728 the Spanish had gotten over any obsession about Hexen, but not yet England and Germany. Mark Seifert On Wednesday, May 6, 2015 4:07 AM, Mathias RAP:sel mathias.roe...@t-online.de wrote: Read Hillary Mantel on that topic, you'll get another view. Mathias -Original Message- From: [1]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Chris Barker Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2015 6:11 PM To: 'Monica Hall'; 'Edward Chrysogonus Yong' Cc: 'Lutelist' Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy I agree on Thomas Cromwell as well! Had Henry VIII not been king at that time I'd call him a thug too! Chris -Original Message- From: [3]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[4]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Monica Hall Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2015 9:19 AM To: Edward Chrysogonus Yong Cc: Lutelist Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy Yes - Simon Schama has likened Cromwell and his supporters to the Taliban in Afghanistan. They were certainly responsible for destroying some of our cultural heritage. And Thomas Cromwell a century earlier was just an avaricious thug. Monica - Original Message - From: Edward
[LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy
I'm curious how long Giordano Bruno would have lasted in Russia in the 1930's. Certainly not the 8 (!!!) years in which the Inquisition was trying to get him to recant. RT https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Inquisition On 5/6/2015 5:55 PM, Dan Winheld wrote: On 5/6/2015 2:40 PM, theoj89...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu wrote: Wow, the (Spanish) Inquisition was rather mild ? I was under the impression that it was rather brutal. Emperor Rudolf II spent his childhood with relatives in Spain and was so abhorred by the torutre and murder of non Christians that, when he was Emperor he assured religious tolerance in his realm. Are you sure you are not referring to the Monty Python version of the Spanish Inquisition (Ge the comfy chair!). trj To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy
Death tolls Contemporary illustration of the auto-da-fe of [1]Valladolid, in which fourteen Protestants were burned at the stake for their faith, on May 21, 1559 Garcia Carcel estimates that the total number processed by the Inquisition throughout its history was approximately 150,000; applying the percentages of executions that appeared in the trials of 1560-1700--about 2%--the approximate total would be about 3,000 put to death. Nevertheless, it is likely that the toll was higher, keeping in mind the data provided by Dedieu and Garcia Carcel for the tribunals of Toledo and Valencia, respectively. It is likely that between 3,000 and 5,000 were executed.^[2][99] Modern historians have begun to study the documentary records of the Inquisition. The archives of the Suprema, today held by the [3]National Historical Archive of Spain (Archivo Historico Nacional), conserves the annual relations of all processes between 1540 and 1700. This material provides information on about 44,674 judgements, the latter studied by Gustav Henningsen and Jaime Contreras. These 44,674 cases include 826 executions in persona and 778 in effigie. This material, however, is far from being complete--for example, the tribunal of Cuenca is entirely omitted, because no relaciones de causas from this tribunal have been found, and significant gaps concern some other tribunals (e.g. Valladolid). Many more cases not reported to the Suprema are known from the other sources (e.g. no relaciones de causas from Cuenca have been found, but its original records have been preserved), but were not included in Contreras-Henningsen's statistics for the methodological reasons.^[4][100] William Monter estimates 1000 executions between 1530 and 1630 and 250 between 1630 and 1730.^[5][101] The archives of the Suprema only provide information surrounding the processes prior to 1560. To study the processes themselves, it is necessary to examine the archives of the local tribunals; however, the majority have been lost to the devastation of war, the ravages of time or other events. [6]Jean-Pierre Dedieu has studied those of Toledo, where 12,000 were judged for offences related to heresy.^[7][102] Ricardo Garcia Carcel has analyzed those of the tribunal of Valencia.^[8][103] These authors' investigations find that the Inquisition was most active in the period between 1480 and 1530, and that during this period the percentage condemned to death was much more significant than in the years studied by Henningsen and Contreras. Henry Kamen gives the number of about 2,000 executions in persona in the whole of Spain up to 1530.^[9][104] ^ RT On 5/6/2015 5:55 PM, Dan Winheld wrote: And the Albigensian Crusade was just as brutal. The church was already honing its skills. On 5/6/2015 2:40 PM, [10]theoj89...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu wrote: Wow, the (Spanish) Inquisition was rather mild ? I was under the impression that it was rather brutal. Emperor Rudolf II spent his childhood with relatives in Spain and was so abhorred by the torutre and murder of non Christians that, when he was Emperor he assured religious tolerance in his realm. Are you sure you are not referring to the Monty Python version of the Spanish Inquisition (Ge the comfy chair!). trj -Original Message- From: r.turovsky [11]r.turov...@gmail.com To: lute [12]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wed, May 6, 2015 5:07 pm Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy Mark, there are a lot of misconceptions about inquisition, it was rather mild by our 20th century standards, and most suspects were let off the hook. And no one was really eliminated in Spain: 1 in 5 male Spaniards are genetically patrilineally Jewish now, and 1 in 10 are Moors. University of Leeds did a large scale DNA study a few years ago. RT On 5/6/2015 8:51 AM, Mark Seifert wrote: Regarding the Spain versus rest-of-Europe issue ( a most fascinating topic--thanks for introducing it, Robert Barto ), English Prof Brittany Hughes said that one reason the Spanish kings/queens so brutally expelled or forced conversion on the Moors (1523 was an important date of escalation, and then the worst of the Inquisition was imposed in 1609) was that the Turks liked to raid the coast of Spain from their ships, escalating anti-Muslim hatred throughout this period. She didn't mention why the Jews were so oppressed, as they seem like innocent bystanders. I wonder if they also tried to eliminate the lute, because it was seen as a Moorish
[LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy
I agree with you, Monica. Again it's a case of retroprojection: we have this sense for comparing everything with everything because we have a sense for history, something they did not have: history as we know it was invented in the 19th century. We can arrive to some conclusions about all this it if we consider the big quantity of words with arabic roots that are now still present in the spanish language: lots of them! We in Spain are not conscious of these roots now, but in the 16th century they were very present, for sure, because arabic belonged to the daily life. But they were nevertheless used, otherwise they would now be extinct, and that is not the case. Excuse my poor english... Manolo Enviado desde mi iPhone El 6/5/2015, a las 21:18, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk escribió: Briefly - I think the idea that the Spanish didn't like the lute because it had Moorish associations is a rather silly myth. Monica - Original Message - From: Mark Seifert seifertm...@att.net To: Ron Andrico praelu...@hotmail.com; Christopher Wilke chriswi...@cs.dartmouth.edu; Dan Winheld dwinh...@lmi.net; Rob MacKillop robmackil...@gmail.com; Howard Posner howardpos...@ca.rr.com; David Van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com Cc: 'Lutelist' lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, May 06, 2015 1:51 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy Regarding the Spain versus rest-of-Europe issue ( a most fascinating topic--thanks for introducing it, Robert Barto ), English Prof Brittany Hughes said that one reason the Spanish kings/queens so brutally expelled or forced conversion on the Moors (1523 was an important date of escalation, and then the worst of the Inquisition was imposed in 1609) was that the Turks liked to raid the coast of Spain from their ships, escalating anti-Muslim hatred throughout this period. She didn't mention why the Jews were so oppressed, as they seem like innocent bystanders. I wonder if they also tried to eliminate the lute, because it was seen as a Moorish instrument, or the lute belly reminded them of something really evil, like the belly of a pregnant woman, heaven forbid. In defense of Spain, Dr. Teofilo Ruiz of UCLA in his Terror of History course said that the Spanish ended their witch hunting decades before England and Germany (and America). Maybe the adverse effects of eliminating Jews and Muslims helped them realize that getting rid of all their witches wouldn't improve anything. I had a really spooky/scary experience in 1973 after I got a minimum wage job vacuuming dust off the books in the dark stacks of Widener Library (built after the Titanic went down in honor of a son of a Boston Brahmin family). Was sitting on the cold concrete floor dusting a row of books when I encountered a black leather clad tome whose binding showed one word, my last name spelled correctly, and the date 1728 in silver Gothic letters. Shocked and amazed, I pulled it out, To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy
Yes. I thought Diana Poulton demonstrated that the lute was present in Spain throughout the 16th century in her article, The Lute in Christian Spain. Lute Society Journal 19 (1977): 34-49. I always thought the vihuela was more popular in Spain because it was more graceful to play while wearing those silly outfits. RA Date: Wed, 6 May 2015 20:18:28 +0100 To: seifertm...@att.net CC: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu From: mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy Briefly - I think the idea that the Spanish didn't like the lute because it had Moorish associations is a rather silly myth. Monica - Original Message - From: Mark Seifert seifertm...@att.net To: Ron Andrico praelu...@hotmail.com; Christopher Wilke chriswi...@cs.dartmouth.edu; Dan Winheld dwinh...@lmi.net; Rob MacKillop robmackil...@gmail.com; Howard Posner howardpos...@ca.rr.com; David Van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com Cc: 'Lutelist' lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, May 06, 2015 1:51 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy Regarding the Spain versus rest-of-Europe issue ( a most fascinating topic--thanks for introducing it, Robert Barto ), English Prof Brittany Hughes said that one reason the Spanish kings/queens so brutally expelled or forced conversion on the Moors (1523 was an important date of escalation, and then the worst of the Inquisition was imposed in 1609) was that the Turks liked to raid the coast of Spain from their ships, escalating anti-Muslim hatred throughout this period. She didn't mention why the Jews were so oppressed, as they seem like innocent bystanders. I wonder if they also tried to eliminate the lute, because it was seen as a Moorish instrument, or the lute belly reminded them of something really evil, like the belly of a pregnant woman, heaven forbid. In defense of Spain, Dr. Teofilo Ruiz of UCLA in his Terror of History course said that the Spanish ended their witch hunting decades before England and Germany (and America). Maybe the adverse effects of eliminating Jews and Muslims helped them realize that getting rid of all their witches wouldn't improve anything. I had a really spooky/scary experience in 1973 after I got a minimum wage job vacuuming dust off the books in the dark stacks of Widener Library (built after the Titanic went down in honor of a son of a Boston Brahmin family). Was sitting on the cold concrete floor dusting a row of books when I encountered a black leather clad tome whose binding showed one word, my last name spelled correctly, and the date 1728 in silver Gothic letters. Shocked and amazed, I pulled it out, opened it and discovered it was a baroque legal textbook discussing in incredible detail some issues regarding die Hexen. Though I was studying German at the time, I couldn't quite figure out if it covered how to identify/prosecute or how to defend/absolve the witches! There were columns and tables of criteria, and even some numbers. I suspect the botched Salem trials and executions before the turn of the century caused Germans concern so they wanted to do a better legal job than the crazed Massachusetts clerics. Talk about having a skeleton in one's family's ancestral closet. I tried later to access that volume on line, but the book appears to be gone. Since classes had ended, I didn't take the book to my German teacher Herr Reller, but I also feared what the book might contain. I believe by 1728 the Spanish had gotten over any obsession about Hexen, but not yet England and Germany. Mark Seifert On Wednesday, May 6, 2015 4:07 AM, Mathias RAP:sel mathias.roe...@t-online.de wrote: Read Hillary Mantel on that topic, you'll get another view. Mathias -Original Message- From: [1]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Chris Barker Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2015 6:11 PM To: 'Monica Hall'; 'Edward Chrysogonus Yong' Cc: 'Lutelist' Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy I agree on Thomas Cromwell as well! Had Henry VIII not been king at that time I'd call him a thug too! Chris -Original Message- From: [3]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[4]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Monica Hall Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2015 9:19 AM To: Edward Chrysogonus Yong Cc: Lutelist Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy Yes - Simon Schama has likened Cromwell and his supporters to the Taliban in Afghanistan. They were certainly responsible for destroying some of our cultural heritage. And Thomas
[LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy
I have always heard that the Spanish preferred the vihuela because it was shaped like their native guitar, and that the lute's (oud's) Moorish association was a widespread prejudice. I have read this in several treatises. That doesn't necessarily make it true though. Anybody can write anything they wish. Best, Chris -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Monica Hall Sent: Wednesday, May 06, 2015 2:18 PM To: Mark Seifert Cc: Lutelist Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy Briefly - I think the idea that the Spanish didn't like the lute because it had Moorish associations is a rather silly myth. Monica - Original Message - From: Mark Seifert seifertm...@att.net To: Ron Andrico praelu...@hotmail.com; Christopher Wilke chriswi...@cs.dartmouth.edu; Dan Winheld dwinh...@lmi.net; Rob MacKillop robmackil...@gmail.com; Howard Posner howardpos...@ca.rr.com; David Van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com Cc: 'Lutelist' lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, May 06, 2015 1:51 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy Regarding the Spain versus rest-of-Europe issue ( a most fascinating topic--thanks for introducing it, Robert Barto ), English Prof Brittany Hughes said that one reason the Spanish kings/queens so brutally expelled or forced conversion on the Moors (1523 was an important date of escalation, and then the worst of the Inquisition was imposed in 1609) was that the Turks liked to raid the coast of Spain from their ships, escalating anti-Muslim hatred throughout this period. She didn't mention why the Jews were so oppressed, as they seem like innocent bystanders. I wonder if they also tried to eliminate the lute, because it was seen as a Moorish instrument, or the lute belly reminded them of something really evil, like the belly of a pregnant woman, heaven forbid. In defense of Spain, Dr. Teofilo Ruiz of UCLA in his Terror of History course said that the Spanish ended their witch hunting decades before England and Germany (and America). Maybe the adverse effects of eliminating Jews and Muslims helped them realize that getting rid of all their witches wouldn't improve anything. I had a really spooky/scary experience in 1973 after I got a minimum wage job vacuuming dust off the books in the dark stacks of Widener Library (built after the Titanic went down in honor of a son of a Boston Brahmin family). Was sitting on the cold concrete floor dusting a row of books when I encountered a black leather clad tome whose binding showed one word, my last name spelled correctly, and the date 1728 in silver Gothic letters. Shocked and amazed, I pulled it out, opened it and discovered it was a baroque legal textbook discussing in incredible detail some issues regarding die Hexen. Though I was studying German at the time, I couldn't quite figure out if it covered how to identify/prosecute or how to defend/absolve the witches! There were columns and tables of criteria, and even some numbers. I suspect the botched Salem trials and executions before the turn of the century caused Germans concern so they wanted to do a better legal job than the crazed Massachusetts clerics. Talk about having a skeleton in one's family's ancestral closet. I tried later to access that volume on line, but the book appears to be gone. Since classes had ended, I didn't take the book to my German teacher Herr Reller, but I also feared what the book might contain. I believe by 1728 the Spanish had gotten over any obsession about Hexen, but not yet England and Germany. Mark Seifert On Wednesday, May 6, 2015 4:07 AM, Mathias RAP:sel mathias.roe...@t-online.de wrote: Read Hillary Mantel on that topic, you'll get another view. Mathias -Original Message- From: [1]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Chris Barker Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2015 6:11 PM To: 'Monica Hall'; 'Edward Chrysogonus Yong' Cc: 'Lutelist' Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy I agree on Thomas Cromwell as well! Had Henry VIII not been king at that time I'd call him a thug too! Chris -Original Message- From: [3]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[4]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Monica Hall Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2015 9:19 AM To: Edward Chrysogonus Yong Cc: Lutelist Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy Yes - Simon Schama has likened Cromwell and his supporters to the Taliban in Afghanistan. They were certainly responsible for destroying some of our cultural heritage. And Thomas Cromwell a century earlier was just an avaricious thug. Monica - Original Message - From: Edward Chrysogonus Yong [5]edward.y...@gmail.com To: Mark Wheeler [6]l...@pantagruel.de Cc: Monica
[LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy
Re: Those silly costumes... When I was an altar boy back in pre-Pleistocene times I never had to wear an ruff. Those who did were proud of it but found it awfully miserable. Chris -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Ron Andrico Sent: Wednesday, May 06, 2015 3:26 PM To: Monica Hall; Mark Seifert Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy Yes. I thought Diana Poulton demonstrated that the lute was present in Spain throughout the 16th century in her article, The Lute in Christian Spain. Lute Society Journal 19 (1977): 34-49. I always thought the vihuela was more popular in Spain because it was more graceful to play while wearing those silly outfits. RA Date: Wed, 6 May 2015 20:18:28 +0100 To: seifertm...@att.net CC: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu From: mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy Briefly - I think the idea that the Spanish didn't like the lute because it had Moorish associations is a rather silly myth. Monica - Original Message - From: Mark Seifert seifertm...@att.net To: Ron Andrico praelu...@hotmail.com; Christopher Wilke chriswi...@cs.dartmouth.edu; Dan Winheld dwinh...@lmi.net; Rob MacKillop robmackil...@gmail.com; Howard Posner howardpos...@ca.rr.com; David Van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com Cc: 'Lutelist' lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, May 06, 2015 1:51 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy Regarding the Spain versus rest-of-Europe issue ( a most fascinating topic--thanks for introducing it, Robert Barto ), English Prof Brittany Hughes said that one reason the Spanish kings/queens so brutally expelled or forced conversion on the Moors (1523 was an important date of escalation, and then the worst of the Inquisition was imposed in 1609) was that the Turks liked to raid the coast of Spain from their ships, escalating anti-Muslim hatred throughout this period. She didn't mention why the Jews were so oppressed, as they seem like innocent bystanders. I wonder if they also tried to eliminate the lute, because it was seen as a Moorish instrument, or the lute belly reminded them of something really evil, like the belly of a pregnant woman, heaven forbid. In defense of Spain, Dr. Teofilo Ruiz of UCLA in his Terror of History course said that the Spanish ended their witch hunting decades before England and Germany (and America). Maybe the adverse effects of eliminating Jews and Muslims helped them realize that getting rid of all their witches wouldn't improve anything. I had a really spooky/scary experience in 1973 after I got a minimum wage job vacuuming dust off the books in the dark stacks of Widener Library (built after the Titanic went down in honor of a son of a Boston Brahmin family). Was sitting on the cold concrete floor dusting a row of books when I encountered a black leather clad tome whose binding showed one word, my last name spelled correctly, and the date 1728 in silver Gothic letters. Shocked and amazed, I pulled it out, opened it and discovered it was a baroque legal textbook discussing in incredible detail some issues regarding die Hexen. Though I was studying German at the time, I couldn't quite figure out if it covered how to identify/prosecute or how to defend/absolve the witches! There were columns and tables of criteria, and even some numbers. I suspect the botched Salem trials and executions before the turn of the century caused Germans concern so they wanted to do a better legal job than the crazed Massachusetts clerics. Talk about having a skeleton in one's family's ancestral closet. I tried later to access that volume on line, but the book appears to be gone. Since classes had ended, I didn't take the book to my German teacher Herr Reller, but I also feared what the book might contain. I believe by 1728 the Spanish had gotten over any obsession about Hexen, but not yet England and Germany. Mark Seifert On Wednesday, May 6, 2015 4:07 AM, Mathias RAP:sel mathias.roe...@t-online.de wrote: Read Hillary Mantel on that topic, you'll get another view. Mathias -Original Message- From: [1]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Chris Barker Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2015 6:11 PM To: 'Monica Hall'; 'Edward Chrysogonus Yong' Cc: 'Lutelist' Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy I agree on Thomas Cromwell as well! Had Henry VIII not been king at that time I'd call him a thug too! Chris -Original Message- From: [3]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
[LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy
Mark, there are a lot of misconceptions about inquisition, it was rather mild by our 20th century standards, and most suspects were let off the hook. And no one was really eliminated in Spain: 1 in 5 male Spaniards are genetically patrilineally Jewish now, and 1 in 10 are Moors. University of Leeds did a large scale DNA study a few years ago. RT On 5/6/2015 8:51 AM, Mark Seifert wrote: Regarding the Spain versus rest-of-Europe issue ( a most fascinating topic--thanks for introducing it, Robert Barto ), English Prof Brittany Hughes said that one reason the Spanish kings/queens so brutally expelled or forced conversion on the Moors (1523 was an important date of escalation, and then the worst of the Inquisition was imposed in 1609) was that the Turks liked to raid the coast of Spain from their ships, escalating anti-Muslim hatred throughout this period. She didn't mention why the Jews were so oppressed, as they seem like innocent bystanders. I wonder if they also tried to eliminate the lute, because it was seen as a Moorish instrument, or the lute belly reminded them of something really evil, like the belly of a pregnant woman, heaven forbid. In defense of Spain, Dr. Teofilo Ruiz of UCLA in his Terror of History course said that the Spanish ended their witch hunting decades before England and Germany (and America). Maybe the adverse effects of eliminating Jews and Muslims helped them realize that getting rid of all their witches wouldn't improve anything. I had a really spooky/scary experience in 1973 after I got a minimum wage job vacuuming dust off the books in the dark stacks of Widener Library (built after the Titanic went down in honor of a son of a Boston Brahmin family). Was sitting on the cold concrete floor dusting a row of books when I encountered a black leather clad tome whose binding showed one word, my last name spelled correctly, and the date 1728 in silver Gothic letters. Shocked and amazed, I pulled it out, opened it and discovered it was a baroque legal textbook discussing in incredible detail some issues regarding die Hexen. Though I was studying German at the time, I couldn't quite figure out if it covered how to identify/prosecute or how to defend/absolve the witches! There were columns and tables of criteria, and even some numbers. I suspect the botched Salem trials and executions before the turn of the century caused Germans concern so they wanted to do a better legal job than the crazed Massachusetts clerics. Talk about having a skeleton in one's family's ancestral closet. I tried later to access that volume on line, but the book appears to be gone. Since classes had ended, I didn't take the book to my German teacher Herr Reller, but I also feared what the book might contain. I believe by 1728 the Spanish had gotten over any obsession about Hexen, but not yet England and Germany. Mark Seifert On Wednesday, May 6, 2015 4:07 AM, Mathias Roesel [1]mathias.roe...@t-online.de wrote: Read Hillary Mantel on that topic, you'll get another view. Mathias -Original Message- From: [2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[3]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Chris Barker Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2015 6:11 PM To: 'Monica Hall'; 'Edward Chrysogonus Yong' Cc: 'Lutelist' Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy I agree on Thomas Cromwell as well! Had Henry VIII not been king at that time I'd call him a thug too! Chris -Original Message- From: [4]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[5]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Monica Hall Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2015 9:19 AM To: Edward Chrysogonus Yong Cc: Lutelist Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy Yes - Simon Schama has likened Cromwell and his supporters to the Taliban in Afghanistan. They were certainly responsible for destroying some of our cultural heritage. And Thomas Cromwell a century earlier was just an avaricious thug. Monica - Original Message - From: Edward Chrysogonus Yong [6]edward.y...@gmail.com To: Mark Wheeler [7]l...@pantagruel.de Cc: Monica Hall [8]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk; ml [9]man...@manololaguillo.com; Lutelist [10]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2015 10:55 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy England falling to 16th C Catholic Spain may have been better for music and culture than falling to Cromwell and the Puritans, just saying... tou%to ylektroniko'n taxudromei'on ek ei'Fwnou emeu% epe'mfthy. Hae litterae electronicae ab iPhono missae sunt. iPhone._ This e-mail was sent from my iPhone. On 5 May 2015, at 4:40 pm, Mark Wheeler [11]l...@pantagruel.de wrote: Regarding Elizabeth I's racism
[LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy
Wow, the (Spanish) Inquisition was rather mild ? I was under the impression that it was rather brutal. Emperor Rudolf II spent his childhood with relatives in Spain and was so abhorred by the torutre and murder of non Christians that, when he was Emperor he assured religious tolerance in his realm. Are you sure you are not referring to the Monty Python version of the Spanish Inquisition (Ge the comfy chair!). trj -Original Message- From: r.turovsky r.turov...@gmail.com To: lute lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wed, May 6, 2015 5:07 pm Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy Mark, there are a lot of misconceptions about inquisition, it was rather mild by our 20th century standards, and most suspects were let off the hook. And no one was really eliminated in Spain: 1 in 5 male Spaniards are genetically patrilineally Jewish now, and 1 in 10 are Moors. University of Leeds did a large scale DNA study a few years ago. RT On 5/6/2015 8:51 AM, Mark Seifert wrote: Regarding the Spain versus rest-of-Europe issue ( a most fascinating topic--thanks for introducing it, Robert Barto ), English Prof Brittany Hughes said that one reason the Spanish kings/queens so brutally expelled or forced conversion on the Moors (1523 was an important date of escalation, and then the worst of the Inquisition was imposed in 1609) was that the Turks liked to raid the coast of Spain from their ships, escalating anti-Muslim hatred throughout this period. She didn't mention why the Jews were so oppressed, as they seem like innocent bystanders. I wonder if they also tried to eliminate the lute, because it was seen as a Moorish instrument, or the lute belly reminded them of something really evil, like the belly of a pregnant woman, heaven forbid. In defense of Spain, Dr. Teofilo Ruiz of UCLA in his Terror of History course said that the Spanish ended their witch hunting decades before England and Germany (and America). Maybe the adverse effects of eliminating Jews and Muslims helped them realize that getting rid of all their witches wouldn't improve anything. I had a really spooky/scary experience in 1973 after I got a minimum wage job vacuuming dust off the books in the dark stacks of Widener Library (built after the Titanic went down in honor of a son of a Boston Brahmin family). Was sitting on the cold concrete floor dusting a row of books when I encountered a black leather clad tome whose binding showed one word, my last name spelled correctly, and the date 1728 in silver Gothic letters. Shocked and amazed, I pulled it out, opened it and discovered it was a baroque legal textbook discussing in incredible detail some issues regarding die Hexen. Though I was studying German at the time, I couldn't quite figure out if it covered how to identify/prosecute or how to defend/absolve the witches! There were columns and tables of criteria, and even some numbers. I suspect the botched Salem trials and executions before the turn of the century caused Germans concern so they wanted to do a better legal job than the crazed Massachusetts clerics. Talk about having a skeleton in one's family's ancestral closet. I tried later to access that volume on line, but the book appears to be gone. Since classes had ended, I didn't take the book to my German teacher Herr Reller, but I also feared what the book might contain. I believe by 1728 the Spanish had gotten over any obsession about Hexen, but not yet England and Germany. Mark Seifert On Wednesday, May 6, 2015 4:07 AM, Mathias Roesel [1]mathias.roe...@t-online.de wrote: Read Hillary Mantel on that topic, you'll get another view. Mathias -Original Message- From: [2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[3]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Chris Barker Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2015 6:11 PM To: 'Monica Hall'; 'Edward Chrysogonus Yong' Cc: 'Lutelist' Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy I agree on Thomas Cromwell as well! Had Henry VIII not been king at that time I'd call him a thug too! Chris -Original Message- From: [4]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[5]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Monica Hall Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2015 9:19 AM To: Edward Chrysogonus Yong Cc: Lutelist Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy Yes - Simon Schama has likened Cromwell and his supporters to the Taliban in Afghanistan. They were certainly responsible for destroying some of our cultural heritage. And Thomas Cromwell a century earlier was just an avaricious thug. Monica - Original Message - From: Edward Chrysogonus Yong [6]edward.y...@gmail.com To: Mark Wheeler [7]l...@pantagruel.de Cc: Monica Hall [8]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk; ml [9]man...@manololaguillo.com; Lutelist [10
[LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy
Probably the Seiffert witch book is the German translation of Cautio criminalis seu de processibus contra Sagas Liber (English: Cautio criminalis or juridical objection because of the witch processes) by Friedrich von der Spee, who was a Jesuit and struggled against the condemnation and killing of witches. Indeed it is from 1648, when fortunately the witch mania was coming slowly to an end. Online at: http://reader.digitale-sammlungen.de/de/fs1/object/display/bsb10395497_5.html In the 18th century only very few persons were murdered as witches. Best regards Markus Am 06.05.2015 um 14:51 schrieb Mark Seifert: Regarding the Spain versus rest-of-Europe issue ( a most fascinating topic--thanks for introducing it, Robert Barto ), English Prof Brittany Hughes said that one reason the Spanish kings/queens so brutally expelled or forced conversion on the Moors (1523 was an important date of escalation, and then the worst of the Inquisition was imposed in 1609) was that the Turks liked to raid the coast of Spain from their ships, escalating anti-Muslim hatred throughout this period. She didn't mention why the Jews were so oppressed, as they seem like innocent bystanders. I wonder if they also tried to eliminate the lute, because it was seen as a Moorish instrument, or the lute belly reminded them of something really evil, like the belly of a pregnant woman, heaven forbid. In defense of Spain, Dr. Teofilo Ruiz of UCLA in his Terror of History course said that the Spanish ended their witch hunting decades before England and Germany (and America). Maybe the adverse effects of eliminating Jews and Muslims helped them realize that getting rid of all their witches wouldn't improve anything. I had a really spooky/scary experience in 1973 after I got a minimum wage job vacuuming dust off the books in the dark stacks of Widener Library (built after the Titanic went down in honor of a son of a Boston Brahmin family). Was sitting on the cold concrete floor dusting a row of books when I encountered a black leather clad tome whose binding showed one word, my last name spelled correctly, and the date 1728 in silver Gothic letters. Shocked and amazed, I pulled it out, opened it and discovered it was a baroque legal textbook discussing in incredible detail some issues regarding die Hexen. Though I was studying German at the time, I couldn't quite figure out if it covered how to identify/prosecute or how to defend/absolve the witches! There were columns and tables of criteria, and even some numbers. I suspect the botched Salem trials and executions before the turn of the century caused Germans concern so they wanted to do a better legal job than the crazed Massachusetts clerics. Talk about having a skeleton in one's family's ancestral closet. I tried later to access that volume on line, but the book appears to be gone. Since classes had ended, I didn't take the book to my German teacher Herr Reller, but I also feared what the book might contain. I believe by 1728 the Spanish had gotten over any obsession about Hexen, but not yet England and Germany. Mark Seifert On Wednesday, May 6, 2015 4:07 AM, Mathias RAP:sel mathias.roe...@t-online.de wrote: Read Hillary Mantel on that topic, you'll get another view. Mathias -Original Message- From: [1]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Chris Barker Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2015 6:11 PM To: 'Monica Hall'; 'Edward Chrysogonus Yong' Cc: 'Lutelist' Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy I agree on Thomas Cromwell as well! Had Henry VIII not been king at that time I'd call him a thug too! Chris -Original Message- From: [3]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[4]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Monica Hall Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2015 9:19 AM To: Edward Chrysogonus Yong Cc: Lutelist Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy Yes - Simon Schama has likened Cromwell and his supporters to the Taliban in Afghanistan. They were certainly responsible for destroying some of our cultural heritage. And Thomas Cromwell a century earlier was just an avaricious thug. Monica - Original Message - From: Edward Chrysogonus Yong [5]edward.y...@gmail.com To: Mark Wheeler [6]l...@pantagruel.de Cc: Monica Hall [7]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk; ml [8]man...@manololaguillo.com; Lutelist [9]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2015 10:55 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy England falling to 16th C Catholic Spain may have been better for music and culture than falling to Cromwell and the Puritans, just saying
[LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy
This is interesting evidence, but all it proves is that the vihuela experienced a great fashion in that period, which no one really doubts. The reasons for the vihuela’s popularity will probably always remain a matter for conjecture, but the idea that it was because of “Moorish associations” doesn’t really bear closer scrutiny, as the Christian Spanish (and other Europeans too) happily incorporated many Moorish elements in many different cultural areas, from language to cuisine, which is not surprising given the refinement and sophistication of Moorish civilization in Spain. Is there any evidence anywhere of cultural elements (not people but things) being rejected explicitly for their origins? Christian theologians such as Thomas of Aquinas even liberally used Moorish theology in is work. Joshua On 06 May 2015, at 23:53, Dan Winheld dwinh...@lmi.net wrote: Satan's Advocate could well quote from Douglas Alton Smith's support of the rather silly myth from his work, A History of the Lute, p.221 Chapter VIII The Vihuela in Renaissance Spain: At least one musician, Rodrigo Castillo, who was denoted as a lutenist in Spanish court records of 1488, was called a vihuelist in 1500. Instrument makers who were commonly called 'laudero' in the 15th century were called 'violero' in the 16th. -And of course he's got footnotes giving documentation. For what it's worth- Can anyone corroborate, contradict? (Incidentally, I could have been legitimately labeled Lutenist in 1999 and Vihuelist in 2002). Dan On 5/6/2015 12:18 PM, Monica Hall wrote: Briefly - I think the idea that the Spanish didn't like the lute because it had Moorish associations is a rather silly myth. Monica - Original Message - From: Mark Seifert seifertm...@att.net To: Ron Andrico praelu...@hotmail.com; Christopher Wilke chriswi...@cs.dartmouth.edu; Dan Winheld dwinh...@lmi.net; Rob MacKillop robmackil...@gmail.com; Howard Posner howardpos...@ca.rr.com; David Van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com Cc: 'Lutelist' lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, May 06, 2015 1:51 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy Regarding the Spain versus rest-of-Europe issue ( a most fascinating topic--thanks for introducing it, Robert Barto ), English Prof Brittany Hughes said that one reason the Spanish kings/queens so brutally expelled or forced conversion on the Moors (1523 was an important date of escalation, and then the worst of the Inquisition was imposed in 1609) was that the Turks liked to raid the coast of Spain from their ships, escalating anti-Muslim hatred throughout this period. She didn't mention why the Jews were so oppressed, as they seem like innocent bystanders. I wonder if they also tried to eliminate the lute, because it was seen as a Moorish instrument, or the lute belly reminded them of something really evil, like the belly of a pregnant woman, heaven forbid. In defense of Spain, Dr. Teofilo Ruiz of UCLA in his Terror of History course said that the Spanish ended their witch hunting decades before England and Germany (and America). Maybe the adverse effects of eliminating Jews and Muslims helped them realize that getting rid of all their witches wouldn't improve anything. I had a really spooky/scary experience in 1973 after I got a minimum wage job vacuuming dust off the books in the dark stacks of Widener Library (built after the Titanic went down in honor of a son of a Boston Brahmin family). Was sitting on the cold concrete floor dusting a row of books when I encountered a black leather clad tome whose binding showed one word, my last name spelled correctly, and the date 1728 in silver Gothic letters. Shocked and amazed, I pulled it out, opened it and discovered it was a baroque legal textbook discussing in incredible detail some issues regarding die Hexen. Though I was studying German at the time, I couldn't quite figure out if it covered how to identify/prosecute or how to defend/absolve the witches! There were columns and tables of criteria, and even some numbers. I suspect the botched Salem trials and executions before the turn of the century caused Germans concern so they wanted to do a better legal job than the crazed Massachusetts clerics. Talk about having a skeleton in one's family's ancestral closet. I tried later to access that volume on line, but the book appears to be gone. Since classes had ended, I didn't take the book to my German teacher Herr Reller, but I also feared what the book might contain. I believe by 1728 the Spanish had gotten over any obsession about Hexen, but not yet England and Germany. Mark Seifert On Wednesday, May 6, 2015 4:07 AM, Mathias RAP:sel mathias.roe...@t-online.de wrote: Read Hillary Mantel on that topic, you'll get another view. Mathias -Original Message- From: [1]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[2]lute
[LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy
What Monica says is true: english history writing had this bias against Spain (Hispanophobia) that can easily be explained because Spain was the hegemonic country in the 16th Century. In Spain this example of negative propaganda is labeled under the expression black legend (Julian Juderias, La leyenda negra 1914). In the english wiki this topic is well exposed. The spanish austrian court was very very strict in its etiquette rules, but was the model for the other european courts. Reading the spanish theatre of this centuries is a pleasure: often it is very funny! Ok, you english speaking people have a very particular sense of humor, which I really enjoy, but the rest of the world also knows how to smile and laugh… The humans were as complex and contradictory then as they are now. I think we shall avoid those easy reductionisms, that are being invented to better control people. BTW, comparing Spain in the 16th Century with the shoah is a bit too much, don't you think so? Manolo El 05/05/2015, a las 14:15, Chris Barker csbarker...@att.net escribió: Cromwell and the Puritans were the worst thing that ever happened to England. The Puritans who came to the U.S. (British colonies then) persecuted and murdered scores of non-Puritans. Chris -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Edward Chrysogonus Yong Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2015 4:55 AM To: Mark Wheeler Cc: Monica Hall; ml; Lutelist Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy England falling to 16th C Catholic Spain may have been better for music and culture than falling to Cromwell and the Puritans, just saying... τούτο ηλεκτρονικόν ταχυδρομείον εκ είΦωνου εμεύ επέμφθη. Hæ litteræ electronicæ ab iPhono missæ sunt. 此電子郵件發送于自吾iPhone。 This e-mail was sent from my iPhone. On 5 May 2015, at 4:40 pm, Mark Wheeler l...@pantagruel.de wrote: Regarding Elizabeth I's racism here is an interesting article https://www.press.jhu.edu/timeline/sel/Bartels_2006.pdf What Monica says about not judging the past by an inappropriate set of criteria is true and is also appropriate to the racism of the English Queen. It may not be PC, but I personally am exceedingly happy that England did not fall to 16th century Catholic Spain! All the best Mark On May 5, 2015, at 9:41 AM, Monica Hall wrote: Yes - you are right. We shouldn't judge the past by an inappropriate set of criteria. Spain has got a bad press in the English speaking world because most of us study history from an English/Northern Europe point of view. Queen Elizabeth I was a racist - want to expel all coloured people from England. So was Shakespeare. Jews are always villains. Monica briefly - Original Message - From: ml man...@manololaguillo.com To: LUTELIST List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, May 04, 2015 8:53 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy Spain was not an exception regarding free vs. conservative thinking. I mean, Spain was not more conservative than England or France, in regard to what is right or wrong in religion, morality (for instance sexuality.) and so on. Fear was (and is) the explication of nearly everything. Perhaps Jean Delumeau (La peur en Occident, Fayard, 1978) hits the nail when he says, concluding his wonderful book, that Satan was seen everywhere. He is the enemy, he inspires the turks, the witches, the heresies, the plagues, etc. When the attention is focused on jews and 'moriscos' (that is what happens in Spain), the witches are not so closely monitorized. In other european countries, not so much worried with jews, heresies (here the protestants, there the catholics) were prosecuted instead. Only two countries, Delumeau continues, escaped from this general fear: Poland and Italy. The latter perhaps because of being more pagan than his neighbors (that was Erasmus' opinion), or because the church was controlling it better than elsewhere. In any case, it seems that Italy lost his mind because of these fears in a lesser degree than other countries. But. if we read Carlo Ginzburg's Il formaggio e i fermi. Il cosmo di un mugnaio del '500 (1976), a seminal work in micro-history, Italy suffered under the inquisition as well. Galileo's case is of course very well known. It's all too easy to project from our present time to that past. Regards from Barcelona, dear lute friends. :-) Manolo El 04/05/2015, a las 19:27, Sean Smith lutesm...@mac.com escribió: That's what I'm thinking, too. The very first piece in Dalza's book is the Caldibi Castigliano and it certainly points to a refined and complex idiom unlike anything else in his Ferrerese or Venetiana dance cycles. Sean On May 4, 2015, at 9:52 AM, Gary Boye wrote: A word of caution here: We are making judgements based primarily on the printed evidence (i.e., the 7 main vihuela
[LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy
Cromwell and the Puritans were the worst thing that ever happened to England. The Puritans who came to the U.S. (British colonies then) persecuted and murdered scores of non-Puritans. Chris -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Edward Chrysogonus Yong Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2015 4:55 AM To: Mark Wheeler Cc: Monica Hall; ml; Lutelist Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy England falling to 16th C Catholic Spain may have been better for music and culture than falling to Cromwell and the Puritans, just saying... τούτο ηλεκτρονικόν ταχυδρομείον εκ είΦωνου εμεύ επέμφθη. Hæ litteræ electronicæ ab iPhono missæ sunt. 此電子郵件發送于自吾iPhone。 This e-mail was sent from my iPhone. On 5 May 2015, at 4:40 pm, Mark Wheeler l...@pantagruel.de wrote: Regarding Elizabeth I's racism here is an interesting article https://www.press.jhu.edu/timeline/sel/Bartels_2006.pdf What Monica says about not judging the past by an inappropriate set of criteria is true and is also appropriate to the racism of the English Queen. It may not be PC, but I personally am exceedingly happy that England did not fall to 16th century Catholic Spain! All the best Mark On May 5, 2015, at 9:41 AM, Monica Hall wrote: Yes - you are right. We shouldn't judge the past by an inappropriate set of criteria. Spain has got a bad press in the English speaking world because most of us study history from an English/Northern Europe point of view. Queen Elizabeth I was a racist - want to expel all coloured people from England. So was Shakespeare. Jews are always villains. Monica briefly - Original Message - From: ml man...@manololaguillo.com To: LUTELIST List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, May 04, 2015 8:53 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy Spain was not an exception regarding free vs. conservative thinking. I mean, Spain was not more conservative than England or France, in regard to what is right or wrong in religion, morality (for instance sexuality.) and so on. Fear was (and is) the explication of nearly everything. Perhaps Jean Delumeau (La peur en Occident, Fayard, 1978) hits the nail when he says, concluding his wonderful book, that Satan was seen everywhere. He is the enemy, he inspires the turks, the witches, the heresies, the plagues, etc. When the attention is focused on jews and 'moriscos' (that is what happens in Spain), the witches are not so closely monitorized. In other european countries, not so much worried with jews, heresies (here the protestants, there the catholics) were prosecuted instead. Only two countries, Delumeau continues, escaped from this general fear: Poland and Italy. The latter perhaps because of being more pagan than his neighbors (that was Erasmus' opinion), or because the church was controlling it better than elsewhere. In any case, it seems that Italy lost his mind because of these fears in a lesser degree than other countries. But. if we read Carlo Ginzburg's Il formaggio e i fermi. Il cosmo di un mugnaio del '500 (1976), a seminal work in micro-history, Italy suffered under the inquisition as well. Galileo's case is of course very well known. It's all too easy to project from our present time to that past. Regards from Barcelona, dear lute friends. :-) Manolo El 04/05/2015, a las 19:27, Sean Smith lutesm...@mac.com escribió: That's what I'm thinking, too. The very first piece in Dalza's book is the Caldibi Castigliano and it certainly points to a refined and complex idiom unlike anything else in his Ferrerese or Venetiana dance cycles. Sean On May 4, 2015, at 9:52 AM, Gary Boye wrote: A word of caution here: We are making judgements based primarily on the printed evidence (i.e., the 7 main vihuela tablatures); there was a great deal of music (most of it!) that took place in Spain outside of these formal, published works. Publishing was a big deal in the 16th century. Getting an imprimatur from a conservative and literally Inquisitorial government was unlikely with a large collection of dance music; much easier to play it conservative and stick to sacred intabulations. The vihuela manuscripts hint at a wider repertoire, as does the existence of guitar music from a later period. Who knows what was happening on the streets, but the Inquisition wouldn't have had much to do if everyone in Spain was a straight-laced as the vihuela tablatures make it seem . . . Gary Dr. Gary R. Boye Professor and Music Librarian Appalachian State University On 5/4/2015 12:37 PM, Dan Winheld wrote: In other words, because the only two ethnic/cultural groups that had any rhythm were invited to leave the premises at once. It was said that when all the Jewish Moorish doctors, scholars, scientists, and artists academics showed up on his doorstep, the Sultan of Turkey asked Has
[LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy
Gary's point really answers the question. Printed music was indeed rare, expensive, and required an essentially monopolized royal privilege to publish. Besides, Spain is really considered the source of many of the grounds that were the basis for improvised dance music that traveled widely in the 15th and 16th centuries. As is the case with so-called ficta in vocal polyphony, why bother to publish something so commonly known and so well understood? There simply was no need to write it down. In the words of Reinhard Strohm: As [music] is essentially aural communication, the best part of it cannot be recovered, only reconstructedMusical notation is only a secondary witness. What is more, much of the music actually heard in the late Middle Ages was never written down at all. Reinhard Strohm, The Close of the Middle Ages, Antiquity and the Middle Ages : From ancient Greece to the 15th century, Ed. McKinnon, James: Englewood Cliffs, N.J. : Prentice Hall, 1991, p. 276. RA Date: Mon, 4 May 2015 12:52:47 -0400 To: dwinh...@lmi.net; praelu...@hotmail.com; r.ba...@gmx.de; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu From: boy...@appstate.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy A word of caution here: We are making judgements based primarily on the printed evidence (i.e., the 7 main vihuela tablatures); there was a great deal of music (most of it!) that took place in Spain outside of these formal, published works. Publishing was a big deal in the 16th century. Getting an imprimatur from a conservative and literally Inquisitorial government was unlikely with a large collection of dance music; much easier to play it conservative and stick to sacred intabulations. The vihuela manuscripts hint at a wider repertoire, as does the existence of guitar music from a later period. Who knows what was happening on the streets, but the Inquisition wouldn't have had much to do if everyone in Spain was a straight-laced as the vihuela tablatures make it seem . . . Gary Dr. Gary R. Boye Professor and Music Librarian Appalachian State University On 5/4/2015 12:37 PM, Dan Winheld wrote: In other words, because the only two ethnic/cultural groups that had any rhythm were invited to leave the premises at once. It was said that when all the Jewish Moorish doctors, scholars, scientists, and artists academics showed up on his doorstep, the Sultan of Turkey asked Has the King of Spain lost his mind? Lacking some rhythm myself, I do enjoy the all the great vihuela music a lot- but even I have to sometimes move over to Italy Germany for a little jumping around. Dan On 5/4/2015 3:36 AM, Ron Andrico wrote: Well, the first answer that springs to mind is because Spain had recently kicked out all the dance musicians, who had moved to Italy. They were left with a bunch of upwardly mobile courtiers (Milan), and serious-minded priests with so much time on their hands that they intabulated every piece of vocal polyphony they could put their hands on. Actually, there is quite a bit of dance music in Fuenllana's print, some but much less in the other six published books. Also, there was quite a bit of dance music evident in Naples, which was Spanish at the time. RA Date: Mon, 4 May 2015 09:29:52 +0200 To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu From: r.ba...@gmx.de Subject: [LUTE] Spain vs. Italy Hi all, In the early 1500s, why are dances so common in Italian lute music and so rare in the vihuela rep. ? Thanks -- Sent from my Android phone with GMX Mail. Please excuse my brevity. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- --
[LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy
Yes - Simon Schama has likened Cromwell and his supporters to the Taliban in Afghanistan. They were certainly responsible for destroying some of our cultural heritage. And Thomas Cromwell a century earlier was just an avaricious thug. Monica - Original Message - From: Edward Chrysogonus Yong edward.y...@gmail.com To: Mark Wheeler l...@pantagruel.de Cc: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk; ml man...@manololaguillo.com; Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2015 10:55 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy England falling to 16th C Catholic Spain may have been better for music and culture than falling to Cromwell and the Puritans, just saying... τούτο ηλεκτρονικόν ταχυδρομείον εκ είΦωνου εμεύ επέμφθη. Hæ litteræ electronicæ ab iPhono missæ sunt. 此電子郵件發送于自吾iPhone。 This e-mail was sent from my iPhone. On 5 May 2015, at 4:40 pm, Mark Wheeler l...@pantagruel.de wrote: Regarding Elizabeth I's racism here is an interesting article https://www.press.jhu.edu/timeline/sel/Bartels_2006.pdf What Monica says about not judging the past by an inappropriate set of criteria is true and is also appropriate to the racism of the English Queen. It may not be PC, but I personally am exceedingly happy that England did not fall to 16th century Catholic Spain! All the best Mark On May 5, 2015, at 9:41 AM, Monica Hall wrote: Yes - you are right. We shouldn't judge the past by an inappropriate set of criteria. Spain has got a bad press in the English speaking world because most of us study history from an English/Northern Europe point of view. Queen Elizabeth I was a racist - want to expel all coloured people from England. So was Shakespeare. Jews are always villains. Monica briefly - Original Message - From: ml man...@manololaguillo.com To: LUTELIST List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, May 04, 2015 8:53 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy Spain was not an exception regarding free vs. conservative thinking. I mean, Spain was not more conservative than England or France, in regard to what is right or wrong in religion, morality (for instance sexuality.) and so on. Fear was (and is) the explication of nearly everything. Perhaps Jean Delumeau (La peur en Occident, Fayard, 1978) hits the nail when he says, concluding his wonderful book, that Satan was seen everywhere. He is the enemy, he inspires the turks, the witches, the heresies, the plagues, etc. When the attention is focused on jews and 'moriscos' (that is what happens in Spain), the witches are not so closely monitorized. In other european countries, not so much worried with jews, heresies (here the protestants, there the catholics) were prosecuted instead. Only two countries, Delumeau continues, escaped from this general fear: Poland and Italy. The latter perhaps because of being more pagan than his neighbors (that was Erasmus' opinion), or because the church was controlling it better than elsewhere. In any case, it seems that Italy lost his mind because of these fears in a lesser degree than other countries. But. if we read Carlo Ginzburg's Il formaggio e i fermi. Il cosmo di un mugnaio del '500 (1976), a seminal work in micro-history, Italy suffered under the inquisition as well. Galileo's case is of course very well known. It's all too easy to project from our present time to that past. Regards from Barcelona, dear lute friends. :-) Manolo El 04/05/2015, a las 19:27, Sean Smith lutesm...@mac.com escribió: That's what I'm thinking, too. The very first piece in Dalza's book is the Caldibi Castigliano and it certainly points to a refined and complex idiom unlike anything else in his Ferrerese or Venetiana dance cycles. Sean On May 4, 2015, at 9:52 AM, Gary Boye wrote: A word of caution here: We are making judgements based primarily on the printed evidence (i.e., the 7 main vihuela tablatures); there was a great deal of music (most of it!) that took place in Spain outside of these formal, published works. Publishing was a big deal in the 16th century. Getting an imprimatur from a conservative and literally Inquisitorial government was unlikely with a large collection of dance music; much easier to play it conservative and stick to sacred intabulations. The vihuela manuscripts hint at a wider repertoire, as does the existence of guitar music from a later period. Who knows what was happening on the streets, but the Inquisition wouldn't have had much to do if everyone in Spain was a straight-laced as the vihuela tablatures make it seem . . . Gary Dr. Gary R. Boye Professor and Music Librarian Appalachian State University On 5/4/2015 12:37 PM, Dan Winheld wrote: In other words, because the only two ethnic/cultural groups that had any rhythm were invited to leave the premises at once. It was said that when all the Jewish Moorish doctors, scholars, scientists, and artists academics showed up on his doorstep, the Sultan of Turkey
[LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy
A bit off topic now - but I don't think Philip and his Armada had conquering and ruling England at the top their agenda. What they wanted to do was to stop English pirates from interfering with their trading interests in the New World. Monica - Original Message - From: Mark Wheeler l...@pantagruel.de To: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Cc: ml man...@manololaguillo.com; Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2015 9:40 AM Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy Regarding Elizabeth I's racism here is an interesting article https://www.press.jhu.edu/timeline/sel/Bartels_2006.pdf What Monica says about not judging the past by an inappropriate set of criteria is true and is also appropriate to the racism of the English Queen. It may not be PC, but I personally am exceedingly happy that England did not fall to 16th century Catholic Spain! All the best Mark On May 5, 2015, at 9:41 AM, Monica Hall wrote: Yes - you are right. We shouldn't judge the past by an inappropriate set of criteria. Spain has got a bad press in the English speaking world because most of us study history from an English/Northern Europe point of view. Queen Elizabeth I was a racist - want to expel all coloured people from England. So was Shakespeare. Jews are always villains. Monica briefly - Original Message - From: ml man...@manololaguillo.com To: LUTELIST List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, May 04, 2015 8:53 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy Spain was not an exception regarding free vs. conservative thinking. I mean, Spain was not more conservative than England or France, in regard to what is right or wrong in religion, morality (for instance sexuality.) and so on. Fear was (and is) the explication of nearly everything. Perhaps Jean Delumeau (La peur en Occident, Fayard, 1978) hits the nail when he says, concluding his wonderful book, that Satan was seen everywhere. He is the enemy, he inspires the turks, the witches, the heresies, the plagues, etc. When the attention is focused on jews and 'moriscos' (that is what happens in Spain), the witches are not so closely monitorized. In other european countries, not so much worried with jews, heresies (here the protestants, there the catholics) were prosecuted instead. Only two countries, Delumeau continues, escaped from this general fear: Poland and Italy. The latter perhaps because of being more pagan than his neighbors (that was Erasmus' opinion), or because the church was controlling it better than elsewhere. In any case, it seems that Italy lost his mind because of these fears in a lesser degree than other countries. But. if we read Carlo Ginzburg's Il formaggio e i fermi. Il cosmo di un mugnaio del '500 (1976), a seminal work in micro-history, Italy suffered under the inquisition as well. Galileo's case is of course very well known. It's all too easy to project from our present time to that past. Regards from Barcelona, dear lute friends. :-) Manolo El 04/05/2015, a las 19:27, Sean Smith lutesm...@mac.com escribió: That's what I'm thinking, too. The very first piece in Dalza's book is the Caldibi Castigliano and it certainly points to a refined and complex idiom unlike anything else in his Ferrerese or Venetiana dance cycles. Sean On May 4, 2015, at 9:52 AM, Gary Boye wrote: A word of caution here: We are making judgements based primarily on the printed evidence (i.e., the 7 main vihuela tablatures); there was a great deal of music (most of it!) that took place in Spain outside of these formal, published works. Publishing was a big deal in the 16th century. Getting an imprimatur from a conservative and literally Inquisitorial government was unlikely with a large collection of dance music; much easier to play it conservative and stick to sacred intabulations. The vihuela manuscripts hint at a wider repertoire, as does the existence of guitar music from a later period. Who knows what was happening on the streets, but the Inquisition wouldn't have had much to do if everyone in Spain was a straight-laced as the vihuela tablatures make it seem . . . Gary Dr. Gary R. Boye Professor and Music Librarian Appalachian State University On 5/4/2015 12:37 PM, Dan Winheld wrote: In other words, because the only two ethnic/cultural groups that had any rhythm were invited to leave the premises at once. It was said that when all the Jewish Moorish doctors, scholars, scientists, and artists academics showed up on his doorstep, the Sultan of Turkey asked Has the King of Spain lost his mind? Lacking some rhythm myself, I do enjoy the all the great vihuela music a lot- but even I have to sometimes move over to Italy Germany for a little jumping around. Dan On 5/4/2015 3:36 AM, Ron Andrico wrote: Well, the first answer that springs to mind is because Spain had recently kicked out all the dance musicians, who had moved to Italy. They were left with a bunch
[LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy
I agree on Thomas Cromwell as well! Had Henry VIII not been king at that time I'd call him a thug too! Chris -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Monica Hall Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2015 9:19 AM To: Edward Chrysogonus Yong Cc: Lutelist Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy Yes - Simon Schama has likened Cromwell and his supporters to the Taliban in Afghanistan. They were certainly responsible for destroying some of our cultural heritage. And Thomas Cromwell a century earlier was just an avaricious thug. Monica - Original Message - From: Edward Chrysogonus Yong edward.y...@gmail.com To: Mark Wheeler l...@pantagruel.de Cc: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk; ml man...@manololaguillo.com; Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2015 10:55 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy England falling to 16th C Catholic Spain may have been better for music and culture than falling to Cromwell and the Puritans, just saying... τούτο ηλεκτρονικόν ταχυδρομείον εκ είΦωνου εμεύ επέμφθη. Hæ litteræ electronicæ ab iPhono missæ sunt. 此電子郵件發送于自吾iPhone。 This e-mail was sent from my iPhone. On 5 May 2015, at 4:40 pm, Mark Wheeler l...@pantagruel.de wrote: Regarding Elizabeth I's racism here is an interesting article https://www.press.jhu.edu/timeline/sel/Bartels_2006.pdf What Monica says about not judging the past by an inappropriate set of criteria is true and is also appropriate to the racism of the English Queen. It may not be PC, but I personally am exceedingly happy that England did not fall to 16th century Catholic Spain! All the best Mark On May 5, 2015, at 9:41 AM, Monica Hall wrote: Yes - you are right. We shouldn't judge the past by an inappropriate set of criteria. Spain has got a bad press in the English speaking world because most of us study history from an English/Northern Europe point of view. Queen Elizabeth I was a racist - want to expel all coloured people from England. So was Shakespeare. Jews are always villains. Monica briefly - Original Message - From: ml man...@manololaguillo.com To: LUTELIST List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, May 04, 2015 8:53 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy Spain was not an exception regarding free vs. conservative thinking. I mean, Spain was not more conservative than England or France, in regard to what is right or wrong in religion, morality (for instance sexuality.) and so on. Fear was (and is) the explication of nearly everything. Perhaps Jean Delumeau (La peur en Occident, Fayard, 1978) hits the nail when he says, concluding his wonderful book, that Satan was seen everywhere. He is the enemy, he inspires the turks, the witches, the heresies, the plagues, etc. When the attention is focused on jews and 'moriscos' (that is what happens in Spain), the witches are not so closely monitorized. In other european countries, not so much worried with jews, heresies (here the protestants, there the catholics) were prosecuted instead. Only two countries, Delumeau continues, escaped from this general fear: Poland and Italy. The latter perhaps because of being more pagan than his neighbors (that was Erasmus' opinion), or because the church was controlling it better than elsewhere. In any case, it seems that Italy lost his mind because of these fears in a lesser degree than other countries. But. if we read Carlo Ginzburg's Il formaggio e i fermi. Il cosmo di un mugnaio del '500 (1976), a seminal work in micro-history, Italy suffered under the inquisition as well. Galileo's case is of course very well known. It's all too easy to project from our present time to that past. Regards from Barcelona, dear lute friends. :-) Manolo El 04/05/2015, a las 19:27, Sean Smith lutesm...@mac.com escribió: That's what I'm thinking, too. The very first piece in Dalza's book is the Caldibi Castigliano and it certainly points to a refined and complex idiom unlike anything else in his Ferrerese or Venetiana dance cycles. Sean On May 4, 2015, at 9:52 AM, Gary Boye wrote: A word of caution here: We are making judgements based primarily on the printed evidence (i.e., the 7 main vihuela tablatures); there was a great deal of music (most of it!) that took place in Spain outside of these formal, published works. Publishing was a big deal in the 16th century. Getting an imprimatur from a conservative and literally Inquisitorial government was unlikely with a large collection of dance music; much easier to play it conservative and stick to sacred intabulations. The vihuela manuscripts hint at a wider repertoire, as does the existence of guitar music from a later period. Who knows what was happening on the streets, but the Inquisition wouldn't have had much to do if everyone in Spain was a straight-laced as the vihuela tablatures make it seem
[LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy
Yes - you are right. We shouldn't judge the past by an inappropriate set of criteria. Spain has got a bad press in the English speaking world because most of us study history from an English/Northern Europe point of view. Queen Elizabeth I was a racist - want to expel all coloured people from England. So was Shakespeare. Jews are always villains. Monica briefly - Original Message - From: ml man...@manololaguillo.com To: LUTELIST List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, May 04, 2015 8:53 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy Spain was not an exception regarding free vs. conservative thinking. I mean, Spain was not more conservative than England or France, in regard to what is right or wrong in religion, morality (for instance sexuality.) and so on. Fear was (and is) the explication of nearly everything. Perhaps Jean Delumeau (La peur en Occident, Fayard, 1978) hits the nail when he says, concluding his wonderful book, that Satan was seen everywhere. He is the enemy, he inspires the turks, the witches, the heresies, the plagues, etc. When the attention is focused on jews and 'moriscos' (that is what happens in Spain), the witches are not so closely monitorized. In other european countries, not so much worried with jews, heresies (here the protestants, there the catholics) were prosecuted instead. Only two countries, Delumeau continues, escaped from this general fear: Poland and Italy. The latter perhaps because of being more pagan than his neighbors (that was Erasmus' opinion), or because the church was controlling it better than elsewhere. In any case, it seems that Italy lost his mind because of these fears in a lesser degree than other countries. But. if we read Carlo Ginzburg's Il formaggio e i fermi. Il cosmo di un mugnaio del '500 (1976), a seminal work in micro-history, Italy suffered under the inquisition as well. Galileo's case is of course very well known. It's all too easy to project from our present time to that past. Regards from Barcelona, dear lute friends. :-) Manolo El 04/05/2015, a las 19:27, Sean Smith lutesm...@mac.com escribió: That's what I'm thinking, too. The very first piece in Dalza's book is the Caldibi Castigliano and it certainly points to a refined and complex idiom unlike anything else in his Ferrerese or Venetiana dance cycles. Sean On May 4, 2015, at 9:52 AM, Gary Boye wrote: A word of caution here: We are making judgements based primarily on the printed evidence (i.e., the 7 main vihuela tablatures); there was a great deal of music (most of it!) that took place in Spain outside of these formal, published works. Publishing was a big deal in the 16th century. Getting an imprimatur from a conservative and literally Inquisitorial government was unlikely with a large collection of dance music; much easier to play it conservative and stick to sacred intabulations. The vihuela manuscripts hint at a wider repertoire, as does the existence of guitar music from a later period. Who knows what was happening on the streets, but the Inquisition wouldn't have had much to do if everyone in Spain was a straight-laced as the vihuela tablatures make it seem . . . Gary Dr. Gary R. Boye Professor and Music Librarian Appalachian State University On 5/4/2015 12:37 PM, Dan Winheld wrote: In other words, because the only two ethnic/cultural groups that had any rhythm were invited to leave the premises at once. It was said that when all the Jewish Moorish doctors, scholars, scientists, and artists academics showed up on his doorstep, the Sultan of Turkey asked Has the King of Spain lost his mind? Lacking some rhythm myself, I do enjoy the all the great vihuela music a lot- but even I have to sometimes move over to Italy Germany for a little jumping around. Dan On 5/4/2015 3:36 AM, Ron Andrico wrote: Well, the first answer that springs to mind is because Spain had recently kicked out all the dance musicians, who had moved to Italy. They were left with a bunch of upwardly mobile courtiers (Milan), and serious-minded priests with so much time on their hands that they intabulated every piece of vocal polyphony they could put their hands on. Actually, there is quite a bit of dance music in Fuenllana's print, some but much less in the other six published books. Also, there was quite a bit of dance music evident in Naples, which was Spanish at the time. RA Date: Mon, 4 May 2015 09:29:52 +0200 To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu From: r.ba...@gmx.de Subject: [LUTE] Spain vs. Italy Hi all, In the early 1500s, why are dances so common in Italian lute music and so rare in the vihuela rep. ? Thanks -- Sent from my Android phone with GMX Mail. Please excuse my brevity. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- --
[LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy
The late Robin Williams was asked on German TV, Why are there so few German comedians? He replied, Because you killed all the funny people. Gary On 2015-05-04 09:37, Dan Winheld wrote: In other words, because the only two ethnic/cultural groups that had any rhythm were invited to leave the premises at once. It was said that when all the Jewish Moorish doctors, scholars, scientists, and artists academics showed up on his doorstep, the Sultan of Turkey asked Has the King of Spain lost his mind? Lacking some rhythm myself, I do enjoy the all the great vihuela music a lot- but even I have to sometimes move over to Italy Germany for a little jumping around. Dan On 5/4/2015 3:36 AM, Ron Andrico wrote: Well, the first answer that springs to mind is because Spain had recently kicked out all the dance musicians, who had moved to Italy. They were left with a bunch of upwardly mobile courtiers (Milan), and serious-minded priests with so much time on their hands that they intabulated every piece of vocal polyphony they could put their hands on. Actually, there is quite a bit of dance music in Fuenllana's print, some but much less in the other six published books. Also, there was quite a bit of dance music evident in Naples, which was Spanish at the time. RA Date: Mon, 4 May 2015 09:29:52 +0200 To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu From: r.ba...@gmx.de Subject: [LUTE] Spain vs. Italy Hi all, In the early 1500s, why are dances so common in Italian lute music and so rare in the vihuela rep. ? Thanks -- Sent from my Android phone with GMX Mail. Please excuse my brevity. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy
England falling to 16th C Catholic Spain may have been better for music and culture than falling to Cromwell and the Puritans, just saying... τούτο ηλεκτρονικόν ταχυδρομείον εκ είΦωνου εμεύ επέμφθη. Hæ litteræ electronicæ ab iPhono missæ sunt. 此電子郵件發送于自吾iPhone。 This e-mail was sent from my iPhone. On 5 May 2015, at 4:40 pm, Mark Wheeler l...@pantagruel.de wrote: Regarding Elizabeth I's racism here is an interesting article https://www.press.jhu.edu/timeline/sel/Bartels_2006.pdf What Monica says about not judging the past by an inappropriate set of criteria is true and is also appropriate to the racism of the English Queen. It may not be PC, but I personally am exceedingly happy that England did not fall to 16th century Catholic Spain! All the best Mark On May 5, 2015, at 9:41 AM, Monica Hall wrote: Yes - you are right. We shouldn't judge the past by an inappropriate set of criteria. Spain has got a bad press in the English speaking world because most of us study history from an English/Northern Europe point of view. Queen Elizabeth I was a racist - want to expel all coloured people from England. So was Shakespeare. Jews are always villains. Monica briefly - Original Message - From: ml man...@manololaguillo.com To: LUTELIST List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, May 04, 2015 8:53 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy Spain was not an exception regarding free vs. conservative thinking. I mean, Spain was not more conservative than England or France, in regard to what is right or wrong in religion, morality (for instance sexuality.) and so on. Fear was (and is) the explication of nearly everything. Perhaps Jean Delumeau (La peur en Occident, Fayard, 1978) hits the nail when he says, concluding his wonderful book, that Satan was seen everywhere. He is the enemy, he inspires the turks, the witches, the heresies, the plagues, etc. When the attention is focused on jews and 'moriscos' (that is what happens in Spain), the witches are not so closely monitorized. In other european countries, not so much worried with jews, heresies (here the protestants, there the catholics) were prosecuted instead. Only two countries, Delumeau continues, escaped from this general fear: Poland and Italy. The latter perhaps because of being more pagan than his neighbors (that was Erasmus' opinion), or because the church was controlling it better than elsewhere. In any case, it seems that Italy lost his mind because of these fears in a lesser degree than other countries. But. if we read Carlo Ginzburg's Il formaggio e i fermi. Il cosmo di un mugnaio del '500 (1976), a seminal work in micro-history, Italy suffered under the inquisition as well. Galileo's case is of course very well known. It's all too easy to project from our present time to that past. Regards from Barcelona, dear lute friends. :-) Manolo El 04/05/2015, a las 19:27, Sean Smith lutesm...@mac.com escribió: That's what I'm thinking, too. The very first piece in Dalza's book is the Caldibi Castigliano and it certainly points to a refined and complex idiom unlike anything else in his Ferrerese or Venetiana dance cycles. Sean On May 4, 2015, at 9:52 AM, Gary Boye wrote: A word of caution here: We are making judgements based primarily on the printed evidence (i.e., the 7 main vihuela tablatures); there was a great deal of music (most of it!) that took place in Spain outside of these formal, published works. Publishing was a big deal in the 16th century. Getting an imprimatur from a conservative and literally Inquisitorial government was unlikely with a large collection of dance music; much easier to play it conservative and stick to sacred intabulations. The vihuela manuscripts hint at a wider repertoire, as does the existence of guitar music from a later period. Who knows what was happening on the streets, but the Inquisition wouldn't have had much to do if everyone in Spain was a straight-laced as the vihuela tablatures make it seem . . . Gary Dr. Gary R. Boye Professor and Music Librarian Appalachian State University On 5/4/2015 12:37 PM, Dan Winheld wrote: In other words, because the only two ethnic/cultural groups that had any rhythm were invited to leave the premises at once. It was said that when all the Jewish Moorish doctors, scholars, scientists, and artists academics showed up on his doorstep, the Sultan of Turkey asked Has the King of Spain lost his mind? Lacking some rhythm myself, I do enjoy the all the great vihuela music a lot- but even I have to sometimes move over to Italy Germany for a little jumping around. Dan On 5/4/2015 3:36 AM, Ron Andrico wrote: Well, the first answer that springs to mind is because Spain had recently kicked out all the dance musicians, who had moved to Italy. They were left with a bunch of upwardly mobile
[LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy
Spain was not an exception regarding free vs. conservative thinking. I mean, Spain was not more conservative than England or France, in regard to what is right or wrong in religion, morality (for instance sexuality ) and so on. Fear was (and is) the explication of nearly everything. Perhaps Jean Delumeau (La peur en Occident, Fayard, 1978) hits the nail when he says, concluding his wonderful book, that Satan was seen everywhere. He is the enemy, he inspires the turks, the witches, the heresies, the plagues, etc. When the attention is focused on jews and 'moriscos' (that is what happens in Spain), the witches are not so closely monitorized. In other european countries, not so much worried with jews, heresies (here the protestants, there the catholics) were prosecuted instead. Only two countries, Delumeau continues, escaped from this general fear: Poland and Italy. The latter perhaps because of being more pagan than his neighbors (that was Erasmus' opinion), or because the church was controlling it better than elsewhere. In any case, it seems that Italy lost his mind because of these fears in a lesser degree than other countries. But if we read Carlo Ginzburg's Il formaggio e i fermi. Il cosmo di un mugnaio del '500 (1976), a seminal work in micro-history, Italy suffered under the inquisition as well. Galileo's case is of course very well known. It's all too easy to project from our present time to that past. Regards from Barcelona, dear lute friends. :-) Manolo El 04/05/2015, a las 19:27, Sean Smith lutesm...@mac.com escribió: That's what I'm thinking, too. The very first piece in Dalza's book is the Caldibi Castigliano and it certainly points to a refined and complex idiom unlike anything else in his Ferrerese or Venetiana dance cycles. Sean On May 4, 2015, at 9:52 AM, Gary Boye wrote: A word of caution here: We are making judgements based primarily on the printed evidence (i.e., the 7 main vihuela tablatures); there was a great deal of music (most of it!) that took place in Spain outside of these formal, published works. Publishing was a big deal in the 16th century. Getting an imprimatur from a conservative and literally Inquisitorial government was unlikely with a large collection of dance music; much easier to play it conservative and stick to sacred intabulations. The vihuela manuscripts hint at a wider repertoire, as does the existence of guitar music from a later period. Who knows what was happening on the streets, but the Inquisition wouldn't have had much to do if everyone in Spain was a straight-laced as the vihuela tablatures make it seem . . . Gary Dr. Gary R. Boye Professor and Music Librarian Appalachian State University On 5/4/2015 12:37 PM, Dan Winheld wrote: In other words, because the only two ethnic/cultural groups that had any rhythm were invited to leave the premises at once. It was said that when all the Jewish Moorish doctors, scholars, scientists, and artists academics showed up on his doorstep, the Sultan of Turkey asked Has the King of Spain lost his mind? Lacking some rhythm myself, I do enjoy the all the great vihuela music a lot- but even I have to sometimes move over to Italy Germany for a little jumping around. Dan On 5/4/2015 3:36 AM, Ron Andrico wrote: Well, the first answer that springs to mind is because Spain had recently kicked out all the dance musicians, who had moved to Italy. They were left with a bunch of upwardly mobile courtiers (Milan), and serious-minded priests with so much time on their hands that they intabulated every piece of vocal polyphony they could put their hands on. Actually, there is quite a bit of dance music in Fuenllana's print, some but much less in the other six published books. Also, there was quite a bit of dance music evident in Naples, which was Spanish at the time. RA Date: Mon, 4 May 2015 09:29:52 +0200 To: l...@cs.dartmouth.edu From: r.ba...@gmx.de Subject: [LUTE] Spain vs. Italy Hi all, In the early 1500s, why are dances so common in Italian lute music and so rare in the vihuela rep. ? Thanks -- Sent from my Android phone with GMX Mail. Please excuse my brevity. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- --
[LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy
Well, the first answer that springs to mind is because Spain had recently kicked out all the dance musicians, who had moved to Italy. They were left with a bunch of upwardly mobile courtiers (Milan), and serious-minded priests with so much time on their hands that they intabulated every piece of vocal polyphony they could put their hands on. Actually, there is quite a bit of dance music in Fuenllana's print, some but much less in the other six published books. Also, there was quite a bit of dance music evident in Naples, which was Spanish at the time. RA Date: Mon, 4 May 2015 09:29:52 +0200 To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu From: r.ba...@gmx.de Subject: [LUTE] Spain vs. Italy Hi all, In the early 1500s, why are dances so common in Italian lute music and so rare in the vihuela rep. ? Thanks -- Sent from my Android phone with GMX Mail. Please excuse my brevity. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy
Il 04/05/2015 09:29, Robert Barto ha scritto: Hi all, In the early 1500s, why are dances so common in Italian lute music and so rare in the vihuela rep. ? Because we know how to party! :) Best regards Fabio To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy
In other words, because the only two ethnic/cultural groups that had any rhythm were invited to leave the premises at once. It was said that when all the Jewish Moorish doctors, scholars, scientists, and artists academics showed up on his doorstep, the Sultan of Turkey asked Has the King of Spain lost his mind? Lacking some rhythm myself, I do enjoy the all the great vihuela music a lot- but even I have to sometimes move over to Italy Germany for a little jumping around. Dan On 5/4/2015 3:36 AM, Ron Andrico wrote: Well, the first answer that springs to mind is because Spain had recently kicked out all the dance musicians, who had moved to Italy. They were left with a bunch of upwardly mobile courtiers (Milan), and serious-minded priests with so much time on their hands that they intabulated every piece of vocal polyphony they could put their hands on. Actually, there is quite a bit of dance music in Fuenllana's print, some but much less in the other six published books. Also, there was quite a bit of dance music evident in Naples, which was Spanish at the time. RA Date: Mon, 4 May 2015 09:29:52 +0200 To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu From: r.ba...@gmx.de Subject: [LUTE] Spain vs. Italy Hi all, In the early 1500s, why are dances so common in Italian lute music and so rare in the vihuela rep. ? Thanks -- Sent from my Android phone with GMX Mail. Please excuse my brevity. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy
A word of caution here: We are making judgements based primarily on the printed evidence (i.e., the 7 main vihuela tablatures); there was a great deal of music (most of it!) that took place in Spain outside of these formal, published works. Publishing was a big deal in the 16th century. Getting an imprimatur from a conservative and literally Inquisitorial government was unlikely with a large collection of dance music; much easier to play it conservative and stick to sacred intabulations. The vihuela manuscripts hint at a wider repertoire, as does the existence of guitar music from a later period. Who knows what was happening on the streets, but the Inquisition wouldn't have had much to do if everyone in Spain was a straight-laced as the vihuela tablatures make it seem . . . Gary Dr. Gary R. Boye Professor and Music Librarian Appalachian State University On 5/4/2015 12:37 PM, Dan Winheld wrote: In other words, because the only two ethnic/cultural groups that had any rhythm were invited to leave the premises at once. It was said that when all the Jewish Moorish doctors, scholars, scientists, and artists academics showed up on his doorstep, the Sultan of Turkey asked Has the King of Spain lost his mind? Lacking some rhythm myself, I do enjoy the all the great vihuela music a lot- but even I have to sometimes move over to Italy Germany for a little jumping around. Dan On 5/4/2015 3:36 AM, Ron Andrico wrote: Well, the first answer that springs to mind is because Spain had recently kicked out all the dance musicians, who had moved to Italy. They were left with a bunch of upwardly mobile courtiers (Milan), and serious-minded priests with so much time on their hands that they intabulated every piece of vocal polyphony they could put their hands on. Actually, there is quite a bit of dance music in Fuenllana's print, some but much less in the other six published books. Also, there was quite a bit of dance music evident in Naples, which was Spanish at the time. RA Date: Mon, 4 May 2015 09:29:52 +0200 To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu From: r.ba...@gmx.de Subject: [LUTE] Spain vs. Italy Hi all, In the early 1500s, why are dances so common in Italian lute music and so rare in the vihuela rep. ? Thanks -- Sent from my Android phone with GMX Mail. Please excuse my brevity. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy
That's what I'm thinking, too. The very first piece in Dalza's book is the Caldibi Castigliano and it certainly points to a refined and complex idiom unlike anything else in his Ferrerese or Venetiana dance cycles. Sean On May 4, 2015, at 9:52 AM, Gary Boye wrote: A word of caution here: We are making judgements based primarily on the printed evidence (i.e., the 7 main vihuela tablatures); there was a great deal of music (most of it!) that took place in Spain outside of these formal, published works. Publishing was a big deal in the 16th century. Getting an imprimatur from a conservative and literally Inquisitorial government was unlikely with a large collection of dance music; much easier to play it conservative and stick to sacred intabulations. The vihuela manuscripts hint at a wider repertoire, as does the existence of guitar music from a later period. Who knows what was happening on the streets, but the Inquisition wouldn't have had much to do if everyone in Spain was a straight-laced as the vihuela tablatures make it seem . . . Gary Dr. Gary R. Boye Professor and Music Librarian Appalachian State University On 5/4/2015 12:37 PM, Dan Winheld wrote: In other words, because the only two ethnic/cultural groups that had any rhythm were invited to leave the premises at once. It was said that when all the Jewish Moorish doctors, scholars, scientists, and artists academics showed up on his doorstep, the Sultan of Turkey asked Has the King of Spain lost his mind? Lacking some rhythm myself, I do enjoy the all the great vihuela music a lot- but even I have to sometimes move over to Italy Germany for a little jumping around. Dan On 5/4/2015 3:36 AM, Ron Andrico wrote: Well, the first answer that springs to mind is because Spain had recently kicked out all the dance musicians, who had moved to Italy. They were left with a bunch of upwardly mobile courtiers (Milan), and serious-minded priests with so much time on their hands that they intabulated every piece of vocal polyphony they could put their hands on. Actually, there is quite a bit of dance music in Fuenllana's print, some but much less in the other six published books. Also, there was quite a bit of dance music evident in Naples, which was Spanish at the time. RA Date: Mon, 4 May 2015 09:29:52 +0200 To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu From: r.ba...@gmx.de Subject: [LUTE] Spain vs. Italy Hi all, In the early 1500s, why are dances so common in Italian lute music and so rare in the vihuela rep. ? Thanks -- Sent from my Android phone with GMX Mail. Please excuse my brevity. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy
Spain was not an exception regarding free vs. conservative thinking. I mean, Spain was not more conservative than England or France, in regard to what is right or wrong in religion, morality (for instance sexuality ) and so on. Fear was (and is) the explication of nearly everything. Perhaps Jean Delumeau (La peur en Occident, Fayard, 1978) hits the nail when he says, concluding his wonderful book, that Satan was seen everywhere. He is the enemy, he inspires the turks, the witches, the heresies, the plagues, etc. When the attention is focused on jews and 'moriscos' (that is what happens in Spain), the witches are not so closely monitorized. In other european countries, not so much worried with jews, heresies (here the protestants, there the catholics) were prosecuted instead. Only two countries, Delumeau continues, escaped from this general fear: Poland and Italy. The latter perhaps because of being more pagan than his neighbors (that was Erasmus' opinion), or because the church was controlling it better than elsewhere. In any case, it seems that Italy lost his mind because of these fears in a lesser degree than other countries. But if we read Carlo Ginzburg's Il formaggio e i fermi. Il cosmo di un mugnaio del '500 (1976), a seminal work in micro-history, Italy suffered under the inquisition as well. Galileo's case is of course very well known. It's all too easy to project from our present time to that past. Regards from Barcelona, dear lute friends. :-) Manolo El 04/05/2015, a las 19:27, Sean Smith lutesm...@mac.com escribió: That's what I'm thinking, too. The very first piece in Dalza's book is the Caldibi Castigliano and it certainly points to a refined and complex idiom unlike anything else in his Ferrerese or Venetiana dance cycles. Sean On May 4, 2015, at 9:52 AM, Gary Boye wrote: A word of caution here: We are making judgements based primarily on the printed evidence (i.e., the 7 main vihuela tablatures); there was a great deal of music (most of it!) that took place in Spain outside of these formal, published works. Publishing was a big deal in the 16th century. Getting an imprimatur from a conservative and literally Inquisitorial government was unlikely with a large collection of dance music; much easier to play it conservative and stick to sacred intabulations. The vihuela manuscripts hint at a wider repertoire, as does the existence of guitar music from a later period. Who knows what was happening on the streets, but the Inquisition wouldn't have had much to do if everyone in Spain was a straight-laced as the vihuela tablatures make it seem . . . Gary Dr. Gary R. Boye Professor and Music Librarian Appalachian State University On 5/4/2015 12:37 PM, Dan Winheld wrote: In other words, because the only two ethnic/cultural groups that had any rhythm were invited to leave the premises at once. It was said that when all the Jewish Moorish doctors, scholars, scientists, and artists academics showed up on his doorstep, the Sultan of Turkey asked Has the King of Spain lost his mind? Lacking some rhythm myself, I do enjoy the all the great vihuela music a lot- but even I have to sometimes move over to Italy Germany for a little jumping around. Dan On 5/4/2015 3:36 AM, Ron Andrico wrote: Well, the first answer that springs to mind is because Spain had recently kicked out all the dance musicians, who had moved to Italy. They were left with a bunch of upwardly mobile courtiers (Milan), and serious-minded priests with so much time on their hands that they intabulated every piece of vocal polyphony they could put their hands on. Actually, there is quite a bit of dance music in Fuenllana's print, some but much less in the other six published books. Also, there was quite a bit of dance music evident in Naples, which was Spanish at the time. RA Date: Mon, 4 May 2015 09:29:52 +0200 To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu From: r.ba...@gmx.de Subject: [LUTE] Spain vs. Italy Hi all, In the early 1500s, why are dances so common in Italian lute music and so rare in the vihuela rep. ? Thanks -- Sent from my Android phone with GMX Mail. Please excuse my brevity. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- --
