[LUTE] Re: Spinacino/Capirola

[Ron Andrico]

   It's good to know you're paying attention.  Since Spinacino's books
   (1507) and Capirola's manuscript (circa 1511) are essentially from the
   same time frame, and really represents late 15th century repertory and
   practice, we don't know for certain who was copying whom.  But (if you
   read my last blog post on Bembo) at the time, the idea of imitation was
   an indication of acknowledgement and respect, and not to be considered
   the sort of plagiarism that is the basis for songwriting lawsuits so
   common today.  As Martin Shepard points out in the Lute News, Capirola
   also includes a quotation from the famous Benedictus by Isaac in the
   same recercar. By the way, the particular section you mentioned should
   really be considered to be in triple time.

   RA
 __

   From: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu
on behalf of Tristan von
   Neumann 
   Sent: Saturday, June 6, 2020 7:10 PM
   To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 
   Subject: [LUTE] Spinacino/Capirola

   *rubs his chin*
   Hmmm. so why exactly are m. 43ff in Capirola f.6v literally m. 17ff
   in Spinacino No 37?
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

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References

   1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Spinacino colloquium

[Sean Smith]

Thanks, Jean-Marie, this is much appreciated!

I sometimes think FS is the lutiest of the bunch and here we've been 
for 30 years, terrified of him!


Sean


On Feb 17, 2008, at 1:30 PM, Jean-Marie Poirier wrote:


Too many typing mistakes, too much hurry, sorry about that, Sean !

Here's the corrected intro to the text :

Sean,

I was away for the week-end and coming home now (Sunday evening French 
time) I find your message about the Spinacino colloquium in Tours, 
last December. I wasn't there unfortunately, but a friend who attended 
the colloquium did a nice report on the French lute list. Alas, for 
you, it's in French, but that could be a good opportunity to brush up 
your old school French ;-)) . If you really can't find your way 
around, I'll try to post a translation in a week's time, when I come 
back from a week's well deserved holidays on the other side of the 
Mediterranean !


It's only a report, but well worth reading.

All the best,

Jean-Marie


Expéditeur original:Jean-Marie Poirier
Adresse expéditeur original: [EMAIL PROTECTED]


Sean,

I was away for the week-end and coming home now (sunaday evening 
French time) I find your message about the Spinaciono coloquium in 
Tours, last December. I wasn't there unfortunately, but a friend who 
attended the colloquium did a nice report on the French lute list. 
Alas, for you, it's in French, but that could be a good opportunity 
to brush up you old school French ;-)) . If you rellay can't find 
your way arounf, I'll try ro post a translation in a week's time when 
I come back from a week's well served holidays on the other side of 
the Mediterranean !


It's only a report, but quite worth reading.

All the best,

Jean-Marie




Jean-Marie Poirier
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
17-02-2008
To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Spinacino colloquium

[Jean-Marie Poirier]

Too many typing mistakes, too much hurry, sorry about that, Sean !

Here's the corrected intro to the text :

Sean, 

I was away for the week-end and coming home now (Sunday evening French time) I 
find your message about the Spinacino colloquium in Tours, last December. I 
wasn't there unfortunately, but a friend who attended the colloquium did a nice 
report on the French lute list. Alas, for you, it's in French, but that could 
be a good opportunity to brush up your old school French ;-)) . If you really 
can't find your way around, I'll try to post a translation in a week's time, 
when I come back from a week's well deserved holidays on the other side of the 
Mediterranean !

It's only a report, but well worth reading.

All the best,

Jean-Marie
 

Expéditeur original:Jean-Marie Poirier 
Adresse expéditeur original: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

> Sean, 
>
>I was away for the week-end and coming home now (sunaday evening French time) 
>I find your message about the Spinaciono coloquium in Tours, last December. I 
>wasn't there unfortunately, but a friend who attended the colloquium did a 
>nice report on the French lute list. Alas, for you, it's in French, but that 
>could be a good opportunity to brush up you old school French ;-)) . If you 
>rellay can't find your way arounf, I'll try ro post a translation in a week's 
>time when I come back from a week's well served holidays on the other side of 
>the Mediterranean !
>
>It's only a report, but quite worth reading.
>
>All the best,
>
>Jean-Marie
>


Jean-Marie Poirier
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
17-02-2008 
Nˆ¶‰è®‡ß¶¬–+-±ç¥ŠËbú+™«b¢v­†Ûiÿü0ÁËj»f¢ëayÛ¿Á·?–ë^iÙ¢Ÿø§uìa¶i

[LUTE] Re: Spinacino colloquium

[Jean-Marie Poirier]

 Sean, 

I was away for the week-end and coming home now (sunaday evening French time) I 
find your message about the Spinaciono coloquium in Tours, last December. I 
wasn't there unfortunately, but a friend who attended the colloquium did a nice 
report on the French lute list. Alas, for you, it's in French, but that could 
be a good opportunity to brush up you old school French ;-)) . If you rellay 
can't find your way arounf, I'll try ro post a translation in a week's time 
when I come back from a week's well served holidays on the other side of the 
Mediterranean !

It's only a report, but quite worth reading.

All the best,

Jean-Marie

Here's the text in question written by Jean-Paul Bazin, an excellent French 
mandora, mandolino etc. player :

Sabine Meine (Institut allemand à Rome) présentait une communication sur les
frottoles chez Spinacino, titre un peu provocateur puisque s¹il est un des
recueils de Petrucci tourné vers la musique franco-flamande, c¹est bien
celui-là ! En fait de titres italiens, il n¹y a que des pièces de ceux-ci (9
sur 81 au total) transcrites dans les recueils de 1507... Elle notait aussi
que le contraste entre le goût courtisan et le vulgaire de la frottole
n¹apparaissait pas chez Dalza, que la volubilité littéraire faisait plutôt
place en musique à une sorte de répétition circulaire (besoin de variations,
de diminutions ?) et à la question si un genre vocal peut résister à la
tablature, elle concluait qu¹il fallait connaître l¹original vocal pour goûter
la version pour luth.
 
Tim Crawford (Goldsmith University London) parlait, lui, de la musique de
danse pour luth vers 1500, notamment autour du ms. London add. 31389, qui
comme le ms. Thibault, ne contient pas d¹indications de rythmes. Une pavana
svizzera contenue dans ce manuscrit est 4 fois plus longue qu¹une pavane de
Dalza, et son saltarello 2 fois plus long. La pavana ala ferrarese de Jo.
Antonio da Bergamo, du même manuscrit, est de la forme ABCBCBDBDE, alors que
celle de Dalza a pour structure : AABBCAAA BCAB, qu¹est-ce donc que la
pavane à la Ferraraise ??? Il a également présenté des manuscrits conservés à
Munich, dont un (le 1511B) contient le même type de répertoire de danses qu¹un
manuscrit de clavecin conservé à Venise.
 
Gianluigi Bello a présenté une proposition intéressante d¹interprétation des
22 à 27 pièces de Spinacino également contenues dans les publications
précédentes de Petrucci : les jouer ensemble, avec luth + instruments aux
différentes voix, ce qui s¹est déjà fait sporadiquement sur quelques
enregistrements, mais qui en fait semble fonctionner systématiquement
(démonstration audio-visuelle sur Finale à l¹appui !) à l¹exception de menus
problèmes de ficta à régler ponctuellement. Les diminutions du luth sont
souvent des ponts pendant des périodes de repos des voix, parfois le luth
complète l¹harmonie, en tous cas il est toujours audible, et de manière
extrêmement idiomatique. Conclusion (d¹un non-luthiste) : Spinacino a beaucoup
plus de force joué en complément que seul ! Les résultats de ses recherches
sont à écouter sur le CD Marguerit chez ³E Lucevan Le Stelle²
http://www.elucevanlestelle.com/ de Marco Mencoboni, petit producteur italien
indépendant (preneur de son et organiste, personnalité à voir aussi sur
Youtube sous la rubrique Fossombrone, ville natale de Petrucci), enregistré
par Emanuela Galli et Franco Pavan entre autres... Très sympathique
personnage, et loin de moi l¹idée de vouloir lui faire de la pub ;-)
Vladimir Ivanoff a réexhumé sa thèse (début des années 1980 !) pour nous
parler en détail des 6 duos de Spinacino, avec transparents d¹époque à l¹appui
(une présentation à l¹ordinateur eût été beaucoup trop moderne !). Il
considère que même si ces duos sont destinés aux amateurs (publications), ils
sont le fait d¹un professionnel aguerri. Spinacino représente selon lui les
derniers feux d¹une pratique qui semble avoir commencé à disparaître dans les
années 1480-1500 (selon les occurrences iconographiques). Agricola conseille
d¹ailleurs aux luthistes (en 1528) de prendre exemple sur les organistes pour
orner, preuve sans doute que cet art très germanique du duo de luths avait
disparu d¹Allemagne à cette époque... Tout comme les pièces du livre de
Buxheim, les duos de Spinacino ne doivent selon lui pas être joués tel quels,
mais doivent plutôt servir d¹exemple de traitement de pièces vocales.
 
Keith Polk (retraité de l'University of New Hampshire !) a présenté une vue
très fine du luth en Italie à la fin du 15e siècle, divisant son propos entre
luthistes italiens et luthistes étrangers, luthistes professionnels et
luthistes amateurs, luthistes en solo ou en ensemble (avec le passage du
plectre aux doigts, et l¹effet produit sur le public par Paumann jouant
polyphoniquement lors de son passage en Italie en 1470), luthistes de
tradition ou d¹innovation, avec le rôle novateur de la cour de Ferrare où
exerçait Pietrobono, avec le compositeur de Johanne Martini, vite rejoint dans
se

[LUTE] Re: Spinacino online

[Arthur Ness]

Dear Denys,

It could be that the missing "2" on folio 37v is something that
Mrs. Minkoff retouched.  This would suggest that in 1992 she
re-used the
1978 facsimile pages.  Hers was an innocent activity.  She just
wanted everything to look neat and clean.  When she was
criticized (I think it was in a review by Bob Spencer), she took
the remarks in very good humor, and realized her mistake.

I'll get on to some examples of publisher's corrections.  And why
it is helpful to know where a given print came from.  In a sense
it sometimes has to do with establishing authority for a given
reading.

==AJN (Boston, Mass.)
++
This week's free download from Classical Music Library is
_Prokofiev's
Sonata for Violin and Piano No. 1, Op. 80___

Go to my web page:
http://mysite.verizon.net/arthurjness/

For some free scores, go to:
http://mysite.verizon.net/vzepq31c/arthurjnesslutescores/

- Original Message - 
From: "Denys Stephens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: "'Arthur Ness'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "'Lute Net'"

Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 5:00 PM
Subject: RE: [LUTE] Re: Spinacino online



Dear Arthur,
Your information about the Minkoff facsimilies is
very useful to know. My own copy of the Spinacino
facsimile is dated 1992, but I suspect that the
images from the original edition may have been
re-used for later re-prints. Working that out for
sure would be a study in itself!

I find it fascinating that for years we have only known
Spinacino through the Minkoff edition taken from the pre-war
photos in Paris, which made them our primary source for
this work. Now these new images will also become a primary
source for those of us unable to visit Cracow to see the
original.Stephen Fryer is of course right in pointing out
that it's presumably the slight distortion of the pages
themselves that causes the stave lines to look distorted.
It seems clear from the Minkoff print that this distortion
was not evident in the photographs used to make their
facsimile,
so the damage has occurred since then. So we really need to
use the Minkoff facsimile and the new images now when studying
this
source.

At first I thought that seeing these new images would not
tell us anything new about Spinacino's music, but now I'm
not so sure. Just casually looking through the new images
this evening f.37v of the Libro Primo caught my eye -
in the bottom stave, 7th complete measure, the fourth event
looks like a very indistinct '2' and someone has faintly
added a 2 below the stave line, plus a '1' (or an extension
of the bar line). In the Minkoff print all that can be seen
for that event is a fingering dot and a crotchet sign - no
tablature numeral at all. Perhaps there may not be many more
instances like that, but they are certainly worth looking out
for.

Do tell us more about the publishers 'corrections' you know
about. The more one learns about these things, the more
apparent it becomes that 'facsimilies'are not all that we
think they are!

Best wishes,

Denys





-Original Message-
From: Arthur Ness [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 02 December 2007 23:07
To: Lute Net
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spinacino online

Dear Denys,

I think it was about the time of the Utrecht lute conference
where mention
was made of Mrs. Minkoff's practice of retouching her
facsimiles.  She
attended and took Bob Spencer's criticism at one of the
sessions with
typical good humor.  The Minkoff facsimile first dates from
1978.  Well
before the criticism was expressed.  She stopped the practice
immediately.
I wonder if she re-did the Spinacino facsijmile for the 1998ish
reprint.

That's a very interesting analysis you have made from a
comparison of the
two sets of images.  During WW_II the ex-Berlin prints were
stored in a
monestary in Poland.  It could well have been cold and damp.
As I recall,
however, they were very carefully packed.

I'll have to tell you about some other instances of publisher's
corrections.
You are quite correct in looking at all known copies of a
print, if
possible.  And in this case of the same print.

==AJN (Boston, Mass.)

This week's free download from Classical Music Library is
_Prokofiev's
Sonata for Violin and Piano No. 1, Op. 80___

Go to my web page:
http://mysite.verizon.net/arthurjness/

For some free scores, go to:
http://mysite.verizon.net/vzepq31c/arthurjnesslutescores/

- Original Message -
From: "Denys Stephens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 5:48 PM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spinacino online



Dear Arthur & All,
Even though we are looking at two sets of images
of the same prints, the published and online facsimilies
are interesting to compare. Two things are immediately
apparent. The library stamp has been removed from the
title page of the Minkoff ed

[LUTE] Re: Spinacino Online

[Rebecca Banks]

December 4th, 2007
 
Dear Lutenists:
 
 The Spinacino Lute manuscript as an electronic book is a great gift.  You 
can almost feel the soft vellum under your hands.  Almost makes one contemplate 
the possibility of reprints in part or in whole. Illustrated manuscripts are so 
exciting, it is very wonderful to be able to have a record of the original work 
and to have access to such gifts of the heart.  Many thanks to John Griffiths,
 
with thanks,
 
Rebecca Banks
Tea at Tympani Lane Records
www.tympanilanerecords.com
_
Introducing the City @ Live! Take a tour!
http://getyourliveid.ca/?icid=LIVEIDENCA006
--

To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Spinacino online

[Stephen Fryer]

Denys Stephens wrote:


Just casually looking through the new images
this evening f.37v of the Libro Primo caught my eye -
in the bottom stave, 7th complete measure, the fourth event
looks like a very indistinct '2' and someone has faintly
added a 2 below the stave line, plus a '1' (or an extension
of the bar line).


You piqued my curiosity so I looked at the location in question.  Only 
the top half of what is most probably a '2' appears to have been printed 
lightly.  Below the staff someone has written in "2 ?" (an expert in 
epigraphy could probably tell you where/when it was written in).


--
Stephen Fryer
Lund Computer Services

**
The more answers I find, the more questions I have
**




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http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Spinacino online

[Stephen Fryer]

Denys Stephens wrote:


Stephen Fryer is of course right in pointing out
that it's presumably the slight distortion of the pages
themselves that causes the stave lines to look distorted.
It seems clear from the Minkoff print that this distortion
was not evident in the photographs used to make their facsimile,
so the damage has occurred since then.


That depends on how the earlier pictures were taken.  It might be that 
pressure was applied to the pages to force tham flat, which might be 
possible with the slight cockling involved.  But then again, you could 
be right.


--
Stephen Fryer
Lund Computer Services

**
The more answers I find, the more questions I have
**




To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Spinacino online

[Denys Stephens]

Dear Sean,
Just to avoid any misunderstanding, I didn't have
anything to do with the online publication of the
Spinacino prints, but since John Griffiths anounced 
that I would be happening I had been looking forward
to seeing it, and I thought it would be good to let 
everyone know when it became available. The arrival
of this online facsimile has been organised in conjunction
with the conference held last weekend in Tours, France,
which I understand John played a significant role in 
organising. Hopefully, as John appears to be reading
this list these days, he can pass our thanks on to all
those who have made this facsimile avaiable, most of
all the Jagellionian University in Cracow who now own
the original.

Best wishes,

Denys





-Original Message-
From: Sean Smith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: 03 December 2007 04:40
To: Lute Net
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spinacino online


That is simply stunning! Many thanks to you and John Griffiths.

Sean

On Nov 30, 2007, at 3:26 PM, Denys Stephens wrote:

> Dear All,
> The digital facsimile of the two Spinacino books has gone online today 
> as John Griffiths said it would in a mailing to the list a while ago:
>
>   
> <http://www.cesr.univ-tours.fr/ricercar/luth/corpus/
> corpus_luthistes.php>
> http://www.cesr.univ-tours.fr/ricercar/luth/corpus/corpus_luthistes.ph
> p
>
> The online view seems to be not functioning correctly but the option 
> to download the complete volume in PDF format works perfectly.
> The PDF contains both books, so you only need to download it once.
>
> It's a great gift to the lute world, and a fine way to honour the 
> 500th anniversary of the first printed lute books. Great thanks are 
> due to all who made this possible.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Denys
>
>
>
> <http://www.cesr.univ-tours.fr/Ricercar/luth/corpus/fiche_source.php? 
> id_sour
> ce=1>
>
> --
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at 
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Spinacino online

[Denys Stephens]

Dear Arthur,
Your information about the Minkoff facsimilies is
very useful to know. My own copy of the Spinacino
facsimile is dated 1992, but I suspect that the
images from the original edition may have been
re-used for later re-prints. Working that out for
sure would be a study in itself!

I find it fascinating that for years we have only known 
Spinacino through the Minkoff edition taken from the pre-war 
photos in Paris, which made them our primary source for
this work. Now these new images will also become a primary
source for those of us unable to visit Cracow to see the
original.Stephen Fryer is of course right in pointing out
that it's presumably the slight distortion of the pages
themselves that causes the stave lines to look distorted.
It seems clear from the Minkoff print that this distortion
was not evident in the photographs used to make their facsimile,
so the damage has occurred since then. So we really need to
use the Minkoff facsimile and the new images now when studying this 
source.

At first I thought that seeing these new images would not
tell us anything new about Spinacino's music, but now I'm
not so sure. Just casually looking through the new images
this evening f.37v of the Libro Primo caught my eye -
in the bottom stave, 7th complete measure, the fourth event
looks like a very indistinct '2' and someone has faintly
added a 2 below the stave line, plus a '1' (or an extension
of the bar line). In the Minkoff print all that can be seen
for that event is a fingering dot and a crotchet sign - no
tablature numeral at all. Perhaps there may not be many more
instances like that, but they are certainly worth looking out
for.

Do tell us more about the publishers 'corrections' you know
about. The more one learns about these things, the more
apparent it becomes that 'facsimilies'are not all that we
think they are!

Best wishes,

Denys



 

-Original Message-
From: Arthur Ness [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: 02 December 2007 23:07
To: Lute Net
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spinacino online

Dear Denys,

I think it was about the time of the Utrecht lute conference where mention
was made of Mrs. Minkoff's practice of retouching her facsimiles.  She
attended and took Bob Spencer's criticism at one of the sessions with
typical good humor.  The Minkoff facsimile first dates from 1978.  Well
before the criticism was expressed.  She stopped the practice immediately.
I wonder if she re-did the Spinacino facsijmile for the 1998ish reprint.

That's a very interesting analysis you have made from a comparison of the
two sets of images.  During WW_II the ex-Berlin prints were stored in a
monestary in Poland.  It could well have been cold and damp.  As I recall,
however, they were very carefully packed.

I'll have to tell you about some other instances of publisher's corrections.
You are quite correct in looking at all known copies of a print, if
possible.  And in this case of the same print.

==AJN (Boston, Mass.)

This week's free download from Classical Music Library is _Prokofiev's
Sonata for Violin and Piano No. 1, Op. 80___

Go to my web page:
http://mysite.verizon.net/arthurjness/

For some free scores, go to:
http://mysite.verizon.net/vzepq31c/arthurjnesslutescores/

- Original Message -
From: "Denys Stephens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 5:48 PM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spinacino online


> Dear Arthur & All,
> Even though we are looking at two sets of images
> of the same prints, the published and online facsimilies
> are interesting to compare. Two things are immediately
> apparent. The library stamp has been removed from the
> title page of the Minkoff edition, which is fair enough
> as it's not part of the original, but it does make one wonder
> about any other details that might have been 'retouched.'
> Secondly, many of the stave lines in the online images
> are very distorted, but in the Minkoff print they are dead
> straight. So the stave lines must surely have been straight
> when the Paris photos were taken. I wonder if the distortion
> that
> has since occurred might have been from the book being in damp
> conditions during the war years? At least, it's good to know
> that Petrucci didn't print those wobbly lines! It's also very
> nice
> to see the corrections Petrucci's workshop made to misprints -
> see
> for example f.32v, Libro Primo,fourth measure of 'Adieu mes
> amours'
> where the second event has been corrected.Or f.5r of the Libro
> Primo,
> top stave, 6th measure, first event: the handwritten '5' is
> reasonably
> clear in both versions, but in the online copy it's much
> clearer that
> the '3' below it is handwritten, and that a further tablature
> letter
> below that has

[LUTE] Re: Spinacino online

[Andrew Gibbs]

I think I'll be buying that one. E lucevan le stelle Records is a  
brilliant label - I want to buy everything they've released. And  
their CD artwork and booklets are the best - have a look at the cover  
for La Musique Dangereuse:


http://www.elucevanlestelle.com/la-musique-dangereuse/

Andrew

On 1 Dec 2007, at 09:38, wolfgang wiehe wrote:


Dear denys,
Do you noticed differences to the minkoff facsimile?
By the way:
E lucevan le stelle just published their spinacino cd.
Greetings
Wolfgang w. ,  member of the 7-c renaissance lute group! My one and
only...

http://www.elucevanlestelle.com/musicstore/website/it/index.php? 
section_

name=music_store_item_show&article_obj_id=416&article_category=CD




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[LUTE] Re: Spinacino online

[Stephen Fryer]

Denys Stephens wrote:


Secondly, many of the stave lines in the online images
are very distorted, but in the Minkoff print they are dead
straight. So the stave lines must surely have been straight
when the Paris photos were taken. I wonder if the distortion that
has since occurred might have been from the book being in damp
conditions during the war years? At least, it's good to know
that Petrucci didn't print those wobbly lines!


The lines are straight; it is only the 'cockling' of the pages that 
makes them appear slightly wavy.  You can see the effect at the top and 
bottom edges of the pages too.  It doesnt take very much in the way of 
dampness to cause this to happen; very much and the pages either mildew 
or stick together.  At what point (or points?) in the book's history 
this occurred I couldn't guess.


--
Stephen Fryer
Lund Computer Services

**
The more answers I find, the more questions I have
**




To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Spinacino online

[Sean Smith]

That is simply stunning! Many thanks to you and John Griffiths.

Sean

On Nov 30, 2007, at 3:26 PM, Denys Stephens wrote:


Dear All,
The digital facsimile of the two Spinacino books has gone online today
as John Griffiths said it would in a mailing to the list a while ago:

  


http://www.cesr.univ-tours.fr/ricercar/luth/corpus/corpus_luthistes.php

The online view seems to be not functioning correctly but the option to
download the complete volume in PDF format works perfectly.
The PDF contains both books, so you only need to download it once.

It's a great gift to the lute world, and a fine way to honour the 500th
anniversary of the first printed lute books. Great thanks are due to  
all

who made this possible.

Best wishes,

Denys





--

To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Spinacino online

[Arthur Ness]

Dear Denys,

I think it was about the time of the Utrecht lute conference
where mention was made of Mrs. Minkoff's practice of retouching
her facsimiles.  She attended and took Bob Spencer's criticism at
one of the sessions with typical good humor.  The Minkoff
facsimile first dates from 1978.  Well before the criticism was
expressed.  She stopped the practice immediately.  I wonder if
she re-did the Spinacino facsijmile for the 1998ish reprint.

That's a very interesting analysis you have made from a
comparison of the two sets of images.  During WW_II the ex-Berlin
prints were stored in a monestary in Poland.  It could well have
been cold and damp.  As I recall, however, they were very
carefully packed.

I'll have to tell you about some other instances of publisher's
corrections.  You are quite correct in looking at all known
copies of a print, if possible.  And in this case of the same
print.

==AJN (Boston, Mass.)

This week's free download from Classical Music Library is
_Prokofiev's
Sonata for Violin and Piano No. 1, Op. 80___

Go to my web page:
http://mysite.verizon.net/arthurjness/

For some free scores, go to:
http://mysite.verizon.net/vzepq31c/arthurjnesslutescores/

- Original Message - 
From: "Denys Stephens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: 
Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 5:48 PM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spinacino online



Dear Arthur & All,
Even though we are looking at two sets of images
of the same prints, the published and online facsimilies
are interesting to compare. Two things are immediately
apparent. The library stamp has been removed from the
title page of the Minkoff edition, which is fair enough
as it's not part of the original, but it does make one wonder
about any other details that might have been 'retouched.'
Secondly, many of the stave lines in the online images
are very distorted, but in the Minkoff print they are dead
straight. So the stave lines must surely have been straight
when the Paris photos were taken. I wonder if the distortion
that
has since occurred might have been from the book being in damp
conditions during the war years? At least, it's good to know
that Petrucci didn't print those wobbly lines! It's also very
nice
to see the corrections Petrucci's workshop made to misprints -
see
for example f.32v, Libro Primo,fourth measure of 'Adieu mes
amours'
where the second event has been corrected.Or f.5r of the Libro
Primo,
top stave, 6th measure, first event: the handwritten '5' is
reasonably
clear in both versions, but in the online copy it's much
clearer that
the '3' below it is handwritten, and that a further tablature
letter
below that has been erased.Despite the fact that we are in
theory looking
at two identical sets of images, there are subtle differences
that are
worth looking out for.

Best wishes,

Denys









-----Original Message-
From: Arthur Ness [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 01 December 2007 23:00
To: Lute Net
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spinacino online

- Original Message -
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; 
Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 9:22 AM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spinacino online

Dear Wolfgang,

On 12/1/2007, "wolfgang wiehe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Do you noticed differences to the minkoff facsimile?


Interesting! I have both. Could you show us what differences
you have found
thus far?

All the best,

Arto

Dear Arto and friends,

They are the same book.  Before its discovery in Krakow, the
only surviving
copy of Spinacino (books 1 & 2) was in the Staatsbibliothek in
Berlin (shelf
number Mus. ant. pract.
P680/1-2).  It disappeared during WW_II, and was known after
the war from a
Photostat made by Genevieve Thibault (iirc), and
deposited in the Bibliotheque nationale in Paris.   The
original
Berlin copy (the only one known in modern days) turned up in
Krakow about
ten years ago.

Thus the on-line digitalizecd copy and Mrs. Minkoff's facsimile
are
reproductions of the very same book. At one time, Mrs.
Minkoff
retouched some of pages in her facsimiles, but stopped that
parctice after
receiving complaints.  In one instance she removed fingering
dots that she
thought were fly specs (or something like that). But I do
not know if she
did so with her Spinacino facsimile, which is fairly late, and
probably
after she got the "Word" (from Bob Spencer).

There is a modern edition of both books with transcrption and
parallel
tablature in H. L. Schmidt's dissertation at U of North Carlina
at Chapel
Hill.

==AJN (Boston, Mass.)

This week's free download from Classical Music Library is
_Prokofiev's
Sonata for Violin and Piano No. 1, Op. 80___

Go to my web page:
http://mysite.verizon.net/arthurjness/

For some free scores, go to:
http://mysite.verizon.net/vzepq31c/arthurjnesslutescores/




To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Spinacino online

[Denys Stephens]

Dear Arthur & All,
Even though we are looking at two sets of images 
of the same prints, the published and online facsimilies
are interesting to compare. Two things are immediately
apparent. The library stamp has been removed from the
title page of the Minkoff edition, which is fair enough
as it's not part of the original, but it does make one wonder
about any other details that might have been 'retouched.'
Secondly, many of the stave lines in the online images
are very distorted, but in the Minkoff print they are dead
straight. So the stave lines must surely have been straight
when the Paris photos were taken. I wonder if the distortion that
has since occurred might have been from the book being in damp
conditions during the war years? At least, it's good to know
that Petrucci didn't print those wobbly lines! It's also very nice
to see the corrections Petrucci's workshop made to misprints - see
for example f.32v, Libro Primo,fourth measure of 'Adieu mes amours'
where the second event has been corrected.Or f.5r of the Libro Primo,
top stave, 6th measure, first event: the handwritten '5' is reasonably
clear in both versions, but in the online copy it's much clearer that
the '3' below it is handwritten, and that a further tablature letter
below that has been erased.Despite the fact that we are in theory looking
at two identical sets of images, there are subtle differences that are
worth looking out for.

Best wishes,

Denys







 

-Original Message-
From: Arthur Ness [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: 01 December 2007 23:00
To: Lute Net
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spinacino online

- Original Message -
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; 
Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 9:22 AM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spinacino online

Dear Wolfgang,

On 12/1/2007, "wolfgang wiehe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Do you noticed differences to the minkoff facsimile?

Interesting! I have both. Could you show us what differences you have found
thus far?

All the best,

Arto

Dear Arto and friends,

They are the same book.  Before its discovery in Krakow, the only surviving
copy of Spinacino (books 1 & 2) was in the Staatsbibliothek in Berlin (shelf
number Mus. ant. pract.
P680/1-2).  It disappeared during WW_II, and was known after the war from a
Photostat made by Genevieve Thibault (iirc), and
deposited in the Bibliotheque nationale in Paris.   The original
Berlin copy (the only one known in modern days) turned up in Krakow about
ten years ago.

Thus the on-line digitalizecd copy and Mrs. Minkoff's facsimile are
reproductions of the very same book. At one time, Mrs.
Minkoff
retouched some of pages in her facsimiles, but stopped that parctice after
receiving complaints.  In one instance she removed fingering dots that she
thought were fly specs (or something like that). But I do not know if she
did so with her Spinacino facsimile, which is fairly late, and probably
after she got the "Word" (from Bob Spencer).

There is a modern edition of both books with transcrption and parallel
tablature in H. L. Schmidt's dissertation at U of North Carlina at Chapel
Hill.

==AJN (Boston, Mass.)

This week's free download from Classical Music Library is _Prokofiev's
Sonata for Violin and Piano No. 1, Op. 80___

Go to my web page:
http://mysite.verizon.net/arthurjness/

For some free scores, go to:
http://mysite.verizon.net/vzepq31c/arthurjnesslutescores/




To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Spinacino online

[Arthur Ness]

- Original Message - 
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; 
Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 9:22 AM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spinacino online

Dear Wolfgang,

On 12/1/2007, "wolfgang wiehe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Do you noticed differences to the minkoff facsimile?


Interesting! I have both. Could you show us what differences you
have
found thus far?

All the best,

Arto

Dear Arto and friends,

They are the same book.  Before its discovery in Krakow, the only
surviving copy of Spinacino (books 1 & 2) was in the
Staatsbibliothek in Berlin (shelf number Mus. ant. pract.
P680/1-2).  It disappeared during WW_II, and was known after the
war from a Photostat made by Genevieve Thibault (iirc), and
deposited in the Bibliotheque nationale in Paris.   The original
Berlin copy (the only one known in modern days) turned up in
Krakow about ten years ago.

Thus the on-line digitalizecd copy and Mrs. Minkoff's facsimile
are reproductions of the very same book. At one time, Mrs.
Minkoff
retouched some of pages in her facsimiles, but stopped that
parctice after receiving complaints.  In one instance she removed
fingering dots that she thought were fly specs (or something like
that). But I do not know if she did so with her Spinacino
facsimile, which is fairly late, and probably after she got the
"Word" (from Bob Spencer).

There is a modern edition of both books with transcrption and
parallel tablature in H. L. Schmidt's dissertation at U of North
Carlina at Chapel Hill.

==AJN (Boston, Mass.)

This week's free download from Classical Music Library is
_Prokofiev's Sonata for Violin and Piano No. 1, Op. 80___

Go to my web page:
http://mysite.verizon.net/arthurjness/

For some free scores, go to:
http://mysite.verizon.net/vzepq31c/arthurjnesslutescores/




To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Spinacino online

[wikla]

Dear Wolfgang,

On 12/1/2007, "wolfgang wiehe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Do you noticed differences to the minkoff facsimile?

Interesting! I have both. Could you show us what differences you have
found thus far?

All the best,

Arto



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Spinacino online

[G. Crona]

Very good news!

Now we can check the facsimile against Kenneth Be on YouTube, and D. Towne 
on the Fronimo page (and perhaps someone may even take on to put also book 
two there?). Kudos to all involved in putting this landmark facsimile freely 
on the net!


Best wishes

G.

PS. The first duet "Juli amours" sounds definitely wrong in unison. I 
couldn't figure out the tuning interval. Are the other duets all in unison?



- Original Message - 
From: "Denys Stephens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: 
Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 12:26 AM
Subject: [LUTE] Spinacino online



Dear All,
The digital facsimile of the two Spinacino books has gone online today
as John Griffiths said it would in a mailing to the list a while ago:


http://www.cesr.univ-tours.fr/ricercar/luth/corpus/corpus_luthistes.php

The online view seems to be not functioning correctly but the option to
download the complete volume in PDF format works perfectly.
The PDF contains both books, so you only need to download it once.

It's a great gift to the lute world, and a fine way to honour the 500th
anniversary of the first printed lute books. Great thanks are due to all
who made this possible.

Best wishes,

Denys





--

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http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Spinacino online

[wolfgang wiehe]

Dear denys,
Do you noticed differences to the minkoff facsimile?
By the way:
E lucevan le stelle just published their spinacino cd.
Greetings
Wolfgang w. ,  member of the 7-c renaissance lute group! My one and
only...

http://www.elucevanlestelle.com/musicstore/website/it/index.php?section_
name=music_store_item_show&article_obj_id=416&article_category=CD

-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: Denys Stephens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Gesendet: Samstag, 1. Dezember 2007 00:26
An: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Betreff: [LUTE] Spinacino online


Dear All,
The digital facsimile of the two Spinacino books has gone online today
as John Griffiths said it would in a mailing to the list a while ago:
 
 

http://www.cesr.univ-tours.fr/ricercar/luth/corpus/corpus_luthistes.php
 
The online view seems to be not functioning correctly but the option to
download the complete volume in PDF format works perfectly. The PDF
contains both books, so you only need to download it once.
 
It's a great gift to the lute world, and a fine way to honour the 500th
anniversary of the first printed lute books. Great thanks are due to all
who made this possible.
 
Best wishes,
 
Denys


 
 

--

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http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Spinacino

[wolfgang wiehe]

what a wonderful video and what a wonderful CD-label.
w.

http://www.elucevanlestelle.com/musicstore/website/it/index.php?section_name=music_store_item_list&article_category=CD



> 
>  Original-Nachricht 
> Datum: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 13:40:06 +0100
> Von: "G. Crona" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> An: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
> Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Spinacino
> 
> Tasty, timely & tactful
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXIEE0_L9Pk
> 
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 


--

[LUTE] Re: Spinacino on YouTube (Kenneth Be)

[Ron Andrico]

   On the subject of Spinacino, we still have a few copies left of our CD, La
   Rota  Fortuna,  recorded  in  celebration  of the 500th anniversary of
   Spinacino's 1507 publication.  [1]http://www.mignarda.com/cds/fortuna

   Ron Andrico & Donna Stewart
 _

   [2]Booking  a flight? Know when to buy with airfare predictions on MSN
   Travel.

References

   1. http://www.mignarda.com/cds/fortuna
   2. http://g.msn.com/8HMBENUS/2755??PS=47575


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http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Spinacino on YouTube (Kenneth Be)

[Daniel Shoskes]

Also wanted to point out a Weiss Baroque lute duet which Kenneth and  
I played:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5OGyGUuSUmQ

Along with an Allemande and Courante of the Weiss sonata I have been  
recording bit by bit:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKrwMitnYYk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dqj8czuO1Yk

DS


On Aug 8, 2007, at 2:06 PM, Kenneth Bé wrote:

> To the LuteList:
>
> I invite all to hear and see some of my  performances of  
> Spinacino.  Just
> visit my new YouTube user page:
>
> http://www.youtube.com/user/6cLuter
>
> Let's all celebrate in this 500th anniversary of this milestone  
> publication!
>
>
> regards,
> Kenneth Be
>
> --
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Spinacino on YouTube (Kenneth Be)

[Eugene C. Braig IV]

At 02:06 PM 8/8/2007, Kenneth Bé wrote:
>To the LuteList:
>
>I invite all to hear and see some of my  performances of Spinacino.  Just
>visit my new YouTube user page:
>
>http://www.youtube.com/user/6cLuter
>
>Let's all celebrate in this 500th anniversary of this milestone publication!


Wow, I had no idea Youtube was so old!

Facetiously,
Eugene

PS: And thanks for sharing your beautiful playing of this beautiful 
music.  Thanks to their brevity, I'm already through the first two pieces. 




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[LUTE] Re: Spinacino

[Arthur Ness]

DearJerzy,

The mix up in the cataloguing of the Berlin lute prints
was back in the 70s and 80s. I thought by now everything
would
be in order, and the library's catalogue would have
everything properly listed.  But Howard Mayer Brown
hired a studen tto look through the collection for 
chanson
prints, or something like that. But if the cataloguing
is still incomplete (I can't imagine that it is), the
easiest way would be to consult the pre-war card 
cataogue
in the Musik Abteilung of the Deutsche (formerly 
Prussian) Staatsbibliothek in
Berlin.

Can't you find Spinacino just by looking in the
catalogue?  Hmmm?  I looked in the on-line catalogue and
couldn't find any of the lute prints I know to be in the
Jagiellonska Library.

At the end of next week I'll post a short list of
composer/publisher and call number of everything I know
about.  But not just  now, since I'm in the midst of an
important project.

In the meantime you should be able to
get Spinacino's two books by using the call number
P680(a) and P680(b).  Those prints had been in the
Berlin library for a long time, since they came with the
Poelchau collection in 1841.  Poor Poelchau his stuff
really got messed with.  He was librarian at the Berlin
Singakademie, replacing Roman's idol Zelter.  And you
know what happened to the Singakademie library. It ended
up in Kiev (Is Kiev your hometown, Roman?). Again it was
held in secret for a half century.  It is now returned 
to Berlin, or due to be returned.

Is Piotr Pozniak still active, or has he retired?  I
would think that he would have looked at everything long
ago.  I'll post a list later this week.  Or early next
week.  Just be patient with me.

Best regards, Jerzy,  Arthur.
- Original Message - 
From: "Jerzy Zak" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Lute list" 
Sent: Saturday, May 12, 2007 9:40 PM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spinacino


> Dear Arthur,
>
> Nice to get so quick responce from you. I'm teaching
> in Krakow since
> 1993 and am there every week, since I live in Warsaw
> for quite a long
> time now. My personal sentiments, as a player, were
> always closer to
> Reusner, Le Sage, Bronikowski or Rust which I located
> at the
> Jagiellonian Libr. a long time ago already. Several
> other items,
> including many XVIth C. tablatures, are in one or the
> other way more
> famous and ''known'' anyway, so I left diging deeper
> in them to others
> (like Micha³ Gondko, for ex.). But I'd love to learn
> from you more
> about all of them, as it's probably my duty - to a
> certain extend - for
> being ''on spot''.
>
> I'll be in Krakow the next Tuesday and will check up
> things if you have
> time to list them. If that would take to long, I'll
> continue the next
> week or call Sylwia to help me. I'm glad you want to
> assist me (and us)
> in completing the list.
>
> Best regards,
> Jerzy
> __
>
>
> On 2007-05-13, at 00:20, Arthur Ness wrote:
>
>> Dear Jerzy,
>>
>> Nice to hear from you "on the spot" so to speak. How
>> long have you been in Krakow?
>>
>>  I am very busy at the moment, but at a later date
>> I'll
>> provide a complete listing of the lute tablatures in
>> Krakow.  My list has about 100 (one hundred) prints.
>> I'll comment on specifics and perhaps for the time
>> being
>> "snip" a bit.
>>> Then perhaps some of you already know which of the
>>> entries (from that
>>> badly catalogued prints in 1970s) contain in the
>>> Sammelband/ joint
>>> binder the SPINACINO book at the back - probably
>>> still
>>> kept in
>>> secret...
>>
>> [AJN>>>Both books I and II are in Krakow
>> catalogued under P680(a) and P680(b).  The "P" call
>> number is for Petrucci.
>>
>> The American guitarist Paul Wierbowski held them in
>> his
>> hand.  They are also listed
>> as being in Krakow in Stanley Boorman's recent
>> Petrucci
>> catalogue.
>>>
>> [AJN>>>I don't have time to make a list now.  But my
>> list checked by Paul on site (he looked at the
>> volumes
>> himself) includes:
>>
>> [AJN>>>Bakfark, Bassano. Besard. Drusina, FdaM (2x),
>> Fuenllana, Fuhrmann, Gabrieli, M. Galilei, Gerle,
>> Heckel
>> (bound with your Wecker), Jobin, Kapsberger, Kargel,
>> Le
>> Sage, Mylius (?)**, Negri (Gratia & Nuove)  M.
>> Newsidler, Vallet, and so forth (1 1/2
>> pages of 4 pages.).  The Newsidler volumes are
>> especially important because they are presentation
>> copies from News

[LUTE] Re: Spinacino

[Jerzy Zak]

Dear Arthur,

Nice to get so quick responce from you. I'm teaching in Krakow since 
1993 and am there every week, since I live in Warsaw for quite a long 
time now. My personal sentiments, as a player, were always closer to 
Reusner, Le Sage, Bronikowski or Rust which I located at the 
Jagiellonian Libr. a long time ago already. Several other items, 
including many XVIth C. tablatures, are in one or the other way more 
famous and ''known'' anyway, so I left diging deeper in them to others 
(like Micha³ Gondko, for ex.). But I'd love to learn from you more 
about all of them, as it's probably my duty - to a certain extend - for 
being ''on spot''.

I'll be in Krakow the next Tuesday and will check up things if you have 
time to list them. If that would take to long, I'll continue the next 
week or call Sylwia to help me. I'm glad you want to assist me (and us) 
in completing the list.

Best regards,
Jerzy
__


On 2007-05-13, at 00:20, Arthur Ness wrote:

> Dear Jerzy,
>
> Nice to hear from you "on the spot" so to speak. How
> long have you been in Krakow?
>
>  I am very busy at the moment, but at a later date I'll
> provide a complete listing of the lute tablatures in
> Krakow.  My list has about 100 (one hundred) prints.
> I'll comment on specifics and perhaps for the time being
> "snip" a bit.
>> Then perhaps some of you already know which of the
>> entries (from that
>> badly catalogued prints in 1970s) contain in the
>> Sammelband/ joint
>> binder the SPINACINO book at the back - probably still
>> kept in
>> secret...
>
> [AJN>>>Both books I and II are in Krakow
> catalogued under P680(a) and P680(b).  The "P" call
> number is for Petrucci.
>
> The American guitarist Paul Wierbowski held them in his
> hand.  They are also listed
> as being in Krakow in Stanley Boorman's recent Petrucci
> catalogue.
>>
> [AJN>>>I don't have time to make a list now.  But my
> list checked by Paul on site (he looked at the volumes
> himself) includes:
>
> [AJN>>>Bakfark, Bassano. Besard. Drusina, FdaM (2x),
> Fuenllana, Fuhrmann, Gabrieli, M. Galilei, Gerle, Heckel
> (bound with your Wecker), Jobin, Kapsberger, Kargel, Le
> Sage, Mylius (?)**, Negri (Gratia & Nuove)  M.
> Newsidler, Vallet, and so forth (1 1/2
> pages of 4 pages.).  The Newsidler volumes are
> especially important because they are presentation
> copies from Newsidler to the Duke of Bavaria.
>
> **It's there (G 140). Bound with Galilei.
>> __start
>> BB/BJ • printed LUTE music
>>
>> • N 70
>> • Narvaez de, Luis
>> Los seys libros del Delphin de musica de cifras para
>> taner vihuela.
>> • Valladolid, 1538, Diego H. de Cordova
>> • N 66: 1538/22 • T.VII, p.143
>>
>> • W 510
>> • Wyssenbach (ed.), Rudolf
>> Tabulaturbuch auff die Lutten von mancherley
>> lieplicher italianischer
>> Dantzliedern…
>> • Zürich, 1550, Rudolf Wyssenbach
>> • 1550\25 • T.X, p. 310
>
> [AJN>>>W510 has an important manuscript appendix.
>
>> • H 695 2
>> • Wecker, Hans Jakob
>> Lautenbuch vonn mancherley schönen und lieblichen
>> Stucken mit zweyen
>> Lautten zusammen zu schlagen.
>> • Basel, 1552, Ludwig Lück
>> • 2 lutes: T
>> • T.X, p. 197 (unicum)
>>
>> • G 440
>> • Gerle, Hans
>> Eyn Newes sehr künstlichs Lautenbuch darinnen etliche
>> Preambel, unnd
>> Welsche Tentz, mit vier stimmen, von den berumbsten
>> Lautenisten…
>> • Nürnberg, 1552, Hieronymus Formschneider
>> • G 1624: 1552\31 • T.IV, p. 208
>>
>> • F 900
>> • Fuenllana, Miguel de
>> Libro de musica para vihuela, intitulado Orphenica
>> lyra. En el qual se
>> contienen muchas y diversas obras.
>> • Sevilla, 1554, Martin de Montesdoca
>> • F 2093; 1554\32: • T.IV, p. 98
>>
>> • H 690
>> • Heckel, Wolff
>> Lautten Buoch von mancherley schönen und lieblichen
>> stucken, mit zweyen
>> Lauten zusamen zuschlagen und auch sonst das mehrer
>> theyl allein für
>> sich selbst…
>> • Straßburg, 1556, Urban Wyss
>> • 2 lutes: C
>> • H 4934 • T.V, p. 83
>>
>> • H 695 1
>> • Heckel, Wolff
>> Lautten Buch von mancherley schönen und lieblichen
>> stucken mit zweyen
>> Lauten zusamen zuschlagen und auch sonst das mehrer
>> theyl allein für
>> sich selbst…
>> • Straßburg, 1562, Chr. Müller
>> • 2 lutes: T
>> • H 4935: 1562\24 • T.V, p. 83
>>
>> • F 495
>> • Francesco da Milano
>> Intabolatura de Lauto di M. Francesco Milanese et M.
>> Perino Fiorentino.
>> Ricercate, Madrigali e Canzone franzese. Libro I.
>> • Roma, 1566, V. Dorico & Lodovico frat.
>> • T.XI, 2.728
>
> Unicum.  Only a fragment is in France.
>>
>> • H 40
>> • Adriaensen (ed.), Emanuel
>> Pratum musicum Longe Amoenissimum… Selectissima
>> diversorum idiomatum
>> Carmina 4.5.& 6. Vocum… Opus novum.
>> • Antwerpen, 1584, Pierre Phalese, Rubro Leone
>> • 4-6 voci, lute
>> • 1584\12 • T. p. 44
>>
>> • W 70
>> • Waissel, Matthäus
>> Lautenbuch Darinn von der Tabulatur und Application
>> der Lauten
>> gründlicher und voller Unterricht: Sampt ausserlesenen
>> Deudtschen und
>> Polnischen Tentzen…
>> • Franckfurt\O, 1592, Andreas Eichornlu

[LUTE] Re: Spinacino

[Manolo Laguillo]

what a beautiful story!
Thank you for telling it!
Manolo

Arthur Ness wrote:

>http://www.musikschulen-sh.de/feriennote/BigBand.php?sessionid
>
>scroll down to the bottom picture.  That's where they
>went.  But a general (Russian?  German?) made the castle
>into his headquarters.  A junior office opened the boxes
>and realized what they were. Because he feared the
>general's headquarters might be bombarded, he took the
>boxes of books a few miles down the road and stored them
>in another castle.
>
>After the war, when the Germans came to get their boxes 
>they
>were not where they left them. They asked the locals.
>Oh, they had seen soldiers burning books to keep warm. 
>The
>orignal scores to Magic Flute and Beethoven's Fifth had
>served to cook eggs as far as the world knew.
>
>The Polish authorities found the boxes and in secret
>moved them to Cracow as war reparations.  Only about 15
>years ago did they acknowledge that they had them.
>Everything survived!
>
>Arthur.
>- Original Message - 
>From: "Peter Martin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: "Arthur Ness" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Cc: "Lute list" 
>Sent: Friday, April 20, 2007 10:23 AM
>Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spinacino
>
>
>  
>
>>Thank you Arthur.  What an extraordinary story, and
>>what a happy ending.
>>
>>Howard Mayer Brown's book certainly lives on my desk.
>>A good quality
>>reprint is available on demand from iuniverse.com for
>>the very reasonable
>>price of $32.95.  560 jam-packed pages.
>>http://www.iuniverse.com/bookstore/book_detail.asp?isbn=1-58348-525-2
>>
>>Peter
>>
>>On 20/04/07, Arthur Ness <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Yes, the photostats made for Gen=E8vieve Thibault,
>>>are now
>>>in the Biblioth=E8que nationale. The unique Berlin
>>>copy of
>>>Spinacino, long thought destroyed, was acknowledged
>>>by
>>>Polish authorities to be in Cracow only about 15
>>>years
>>>ago.
>>>
>>>In Brown's bibliography* ALL of the prints marked
>>>"D:Bds (L)" [for "Germany: Berlin, Deutsche
>>>Staatsbibliothek (Lost)"] have survived at the
>>>Jagiellonska Library in Cracow (about 50 16th-century
>>>titles).  When I was in Berlin, I
>>>was able to consult the pre-war card catalogue in
>>>then
>>>East Berlin, and made
>>>a listing of all the lute prints and manuscripts that
>>>had been in the former Prussian State Library,
>>>including
>>>the
>>>call-numbers.  When finally only about 15 years ago,
>>>the
>>>Polish authorities admitted they had the Berlin
>>>materials, I sent the list to an American guitarist
>>>studying in Cracow. He confirmed that each and every
>>>title was extant (except for an Adriannsen print).
>>>
>>>At first there was confusion, because many of the
>>>volumes were Sammelb=E4nde (bound volumes containing
>>>several often unrelated prints).  When the collection
>>>was catalogued, reputedly by Polish students, only
>>>the
>>>first
>>>item in each Sammelband was noted.  So through an
>>>oversight, many prints
>>>remained uncatalogued and were thought to have been
>>>lost.  Also all of the manuscripts of lute music have
>>>survived, and an inventory* by Dieter Kirsch was
>>>published a few years ago.
>>>
>>>So a third of the treasures of surely the most
>>>important
>>>collection of music ever assembled were for forty+
>>>years
>>>thought to have been destroyed during World War II.
>>>(These included Mozart's autograph manuscript for
>>>_Magic
>>>Flute._)  I hope Stuart Walsh took a look when he was
>>>in
>>>Cracow.  There's even some guitar music there, too.
>>>
>>>*Howard Mayer Brown.
>>>Instrumental Music printed before
>>>1600: A bibliography. (Cambridge: Harvard U. Press,
>>>1965).
>>>
>>>This is a book that belongs on every lutenist's desk.
>>>It is out-of-print but an on-demand reprint can be
>>>acquired.  Perhaps someone can post the information
>>>(David?).
>>>
>>>**Dieter Kirsch and Lenz Meirott,
>>>Berliner Lautentabulaturen in Krakau : beschreibender
>>>Katalog der handschriftlichen Tabulaturen fur Laute
>>>und
>>>verwandte Instrumente in der Biblioteka
>>>Jagiello=F1ska
>>>Krakow aus dem
>>&g

[LUTE] Re: Spinacino

[Arthur Ness]

http://www.musikschulen-sh.de/feriennote/BigBand.php?sessionid

scroll down to the bottom picture.  That's where they
went.  But a general (Russian?  German?) made the castle
into his headquarters.  A junior office opened the boxes
and realized what they were. Because he feared the
general's headquarters might be bombarded, he took the
boxes of books a few miles down the road and stored them
in another castle.

After the war, when the Germans came to get their boxes 
they
were not where they left them. They asked the locals.
Oh, they had seen soldiers burning books to keep warm. 
The
orignal scores to Magic Flute and Beethoven's Fifth had
served to cook eggs as far as the world knew.

The Polish authorities found the boxes and in secret
moved them to Cracow as war reparations.  Only about 15
years ago did they acknowledge that they had them.
Everything survived!

Arthur.
- Original Message - 
From: "Peter Martin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Arthur Ness" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: "Lute list" 
Sent: Friday, April 20, 2007 10:23 AM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spinacino


> Thank you Arthur.  What an extraordinary story, and
> what a happy ending.
>
> Howard Mayer Brown's book certainly lives on my desk.
> A good quality
> reprint is available on demand from iuniverse.com for
> the very reasonable
> price of $32.95.  560 jam-packed pages.
> http://www.iuniverse.com/bookstore/book_detail.asp?isbn=1-58348-525-2
>
> Peter
>
> On 20/04/07, Arthur Ness <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
>>
>> Yes, the photostats made for Gen=E8vieve Thibault,
>> are now
>> in the Biblioth=E8que nationale. The unique Berlin
>> copy of
>> Spinacino, long thought destroyed, was acknowledged
>> by
>> Polish authorities to be in Cracow only about 15
>> years
>> ago.
>>
>> In Brown's bibliography* ALL of the prints marked
>> "D:Bds (L)" [for "Germany: Berlin, Deutsche
>> Staatsbibliothek (Lost)"] have survived at the
>> Jagiellonska Library in Cracow (about 50 16th-century
>> titles).  When I was in Berlin, I
>> was able to consult the pre-war card catalogue in
>> then
>> East Berlin, and made
>> a listing of all the lute prints and manuscripts that
>> had been in the former Prussian State Library,
>> including
>> the
>> call-numbers.  When finally only about 15 years ago,
>> the
>> Polish authorities admitted they had the Berlin
>> materials, I sent the list to an American guitarist
>> studying in Cracow. He confirmed that each and every
>> title was extant (except for an Adriannsen print).
>>
>> At first there was confusion, because many of the
>> volumes were Sammelb=E4nde (bound volumes containing
>> several often unrelated prints).  When the collection
>> was catalogued, reputedly by Polish students, only
>> the
>> first
>> item in each Sammelband was noted.  So through an
>> oversight, many prints
>> remained uncatalogued and were thought to have been
>> lost.  Also all of the manuscripts of lute music have
>> survived, and an inventory* by Dieter Kirsch was
>> published a few years ago.
>>
>> So a third of the treasures of surely the most
>> important
>> collection of music ever assembled were for forty+
>> years
>> thought to have been destroyed during World War II.
>> (These included Mozart's autograph manuscript for
>> _Magic
>> Flute._)  I hope Stuart Walsh took a look when he was
>> in
>> Cracow.  There's even some guitar music there, too.
>>
>> *Howard Mayer Brown.
>> Instrumental Music printed before
>> 1600: A bibliography. (Cambridge: Harvard U. Press,
>> 1965).
>>
>> This is a book that belongs on every lutenist's desk.
>> It is out-of-print but an on-demand reprint can be
>> acquired.  Perhaps someone can post the information
>> (David?).
>>
>> **Dieter Kirsch and Lenz Meirott,
>> Berliner Lautentabulaturen in Krakau : beschreibender
>> Katalog der handschriftlichen Tabulaturen fur Laute
>> und
>> verwandte Instrumente in der Biblioteka
>> Jagiello=F1ska
>> Krakow aus dem
>> Besitz der ehemaligen Preussischen Staatsbibliothek
>> Berlin.
>> ( Mainz ; New York : Schott, c1992), xxxiv, 432 p. :
>> ill., music ; 25 cm.
>> Schriften der Musikhochschule Wurzburg ; Bd. 3.
>>
>> NOTE: Catalog of intabulation incipits for lute,
>> guitar
>> and related   plucked instruments from the middle of
>> the
>> 16th century (ms. 40154) until the end of the 18th
>> century (ms. 40150)
>>
>> ==ajn

[LUTE] Re: Spinacino

[Ron Andrico]

   Please forgive our commercialism but we have a little news relevant to
   Spinacino.  We thought lute listers might be interested that our new CD, La
   Rota Fortuna, in honor of the 500th anniversary of Spinacino's publication,
   is now available.  Details can be found at the following link:

   [1]http://www.mignarda.com/cds

   Best wishes,

   Ron Andrico & Donna Stewart

   [2]http://www.mignarda.com
   __

 From:  "Peter Martin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 To:  "Lute list" 
 Subject:  [LUTE] Spinacino
 Date:  Fri, 20 Apr 2007 10:26:49 +0200
 >My Minkoff facsimile of Spinacino says that the original unique copy held
 in
 >Berlin  before  the second world war has disappeared, and that the
 facsimile
 >was made from photographs.  But I seem to remember reading somewhere that
 >the original had been found again.  Is this true?
 >
 >--
 >Peter Martin
 >Belle Serre
 >La Caulie
 >81100 Castres
 >France
 >tel: 0033 5 63 35 68 46
 >e: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 >web: www.silvius.co.uk
 >http://absolute81.blogspot.com/
 >
 >--
 >
 >To get on or off this list see list information at
 >http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 _

   [3]MSN is giving away a trip to Vegas to see Elton John.  Enter to win
   today.

References

   1. http://www.mignarda.com/cds
   2. http://www.mignarda.com/
   3. http://g.msn.com/8HMBENUS/2734??PS=47575

[LUTE] Re: Spinacino

[Peter Martin]

Thank you Arthur.  What an extraordinary story, and what a happy ending.

Howard Mayer Brown's book certainly lives on my desk.  A good quality
reprint is available on demand from iuniverse.com for the very reasonable
price of $32.95.  560 jam-packed pages.
http://www.iuniverse.com/bookstore/book_detail.asp?isbn=1-58348-525-2

Peter

On 20/04/07, Arthur Ness <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Yes, the photostats made for Gen=E8vieve Thibault, are now
> in the Biblioth=E8que nationale. The unique Berlin copy of
> Spinacino, long thought destroyed, was acknowledged by
> Polish authorities to be in Cracow only about 15 years
> ago.
>
> In Brown's bibliography* ALL of the prints marked
> "D:Bds (L)" [for "Germany: Berlin, Deutsche
> Staatsbibliothek (Lost)"] have survived at the
> Jagiellonska Library in Cracow (about 50 16th-century
> titles).  When I was in Berlin, I
> was able to consult the pre-war card catalogue in then
> East Berlin, and made
> a listing of all the lute prints and manuscripts that
> had been in the former Prussian State Library, including
> the
> call-numbers.  When finally only about 15 years ago, the
> Polish authorities admitted they had the Berlin
> materials, I sent the list to an American guitarist
> studying in Cracow. He confirmed that each and every
> title was extant (except for an Adriannsen print).
>
> At first there was confusion, because many of the
> volumes were Sammelb=E4nde (bound volumes containing
> several often unrelated prints).  When the collection
> was catalogued, reputedly by Polish students, only the
> first
> item in each Sammelband was noted.  So through an
> oversight, many prints
> remained uncatalogued and were thought to have been
> lost.  Also all of the manuscripts of lute music have
> survived, and an inventory* by Dieter Kirsch was
> published a few years ago.
>
> So a third of the treasures of surely the most important
> collection of music ever assembled were for forty+ years
> thought to have been destroyed during World War II.
> (These included Mozart's autograph manuscript for _Magic
> Flute._)  I hope Stuart Walsh took a look when he was in
> Cracow.  There's even some guitar music there, too.
>
> *Howard Mayer Brown.
> Instrumental Music printed before
> 1600: A bibliography. (Cambridge: Harvard U. Press,
> 1965).
>
> This is a book that belongs on every lutenist's desk.
> It is out-of-print but an on-demand reprint can be
> acquired.  Perhaps someone can post the information
> (David?).
>
> **Dieter Kirsch and Lenz Meirott,
> Berliner Lautentabulaturen in Krakau : beschreibender
> Katalog der handschriftlichen Tabulaturen fur Laute und
> verwandte Instrumente in der Biblioteka Jagiello=F1ska
> Krakow aus dem
> Besitz der ehemaligen Preussischen Staatsbibliothek
> Berlin.
> ( Mainz ; New York : Schott, c1992), xxxiv, 432 p. :
> ill., music ; 25 cm.
> Schriften der Musikhochschule Wurzburg ; Bd. 3.
>
> NOTE: Catalog of intabulation incipits for lute, guitar
> and related   plucked instruments from the middle of the
> 16th century (ms. 40154) until the end of the 18th
> century (ms. 40150)
>
> ==ajn.
> - Original Message -
> From: "Peter Martin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Lute list" 
> Sent: Friday, April 20, 2007 4:26 AM
> Subject: [LUTE] Spinacino
>
>
> > My Minkoff facsimile of Spinacino says that the
> > original unique copy held in
> > Berlin before the second world war has disappeared,
> > and that the facsimile
> > was made from photographs.  But I seem to remember
> > reading somewhere that
> > the original had been found again.  Is this true?
> >
> > --
> > Peter Martin
> > Belle Serre
> > La Caulie
> > 81100 Castres
> > France
> > tel: 0033 5 63 35 68 46
> > e: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > web: www.silvius.co.uk
> > http://absolute81.blogspot.com/
> >
> > --
> >
> > To get on or off this list see list information at
> > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> >
>
>


-- 
Peter Martin
Belle Serre
La Caulie
81100 Castres
France
tel: 0033 5 63 35 68 46
e: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: www.silvius.co.uk
http://absolute81.blogspot.com/

--

[LUTE] Re: Spinacino

[Arthur Ness]

Yes, the photostats made for Genèvieve Thibault, are now
in the Bibliothèque nationale. The unique Berlin copy of
Spinacino, long thought destroyed, was acknowledged by
Polish authorities to be in Cracow only about 15 years
ago.

In Brown's bibliography* ALL of the prints marked
"D:Bds (L)" [for "Germany: Berlin, Deutsche
Staatsbibliothek (Lost)"] have survived at the
Jagiellonska Library in Cracow (about 50 16th-century
titles).  When I was in Berlin, I
was able to consult the pre-war card catalogue in then
East Berlin, and made
a listing of all the lute prints and manuscripts that
had been in the former Prussian State Library, including
the
call-numbers.  When finally only about 15 years ago, the
Polish authorities admitted they had the Berlin
materials, I sent the list to an American guitarist
studying in Cracow. He confirmed that each and every
title was extant (except for an Adriannsen print).

At first there was confusion, because many of the
volumes were Sammelbände (bound volumes containing
several often unrelated prints).  When the collection
was catalogued, reputedly by Polish students, only the
first
item in each Sammelband was noted.  So through an
oversight, many prints
remained uncatalogued and were thought to have been
lost.  Also all of the manuscripts of lute music have
survived, and an inventory* by Dieter Kirsch was
published a few years ago.

So a third of the treasures of surely the most important
collection of music ever assembled were for forty+ years
thought to have been destroyed during World War II.
(These included Mozart's autograph manuscript for _Magic
Flute._)  I hope Stuart Walsh took a look when he was in
Cracow.  There's even some guitar music there, too.

*Howard Mayer Brown.
Instrumental Music printed before
1600: A bibliography. (Cambridge: Harvard U. Press,
1965).

This is a book that belongs on every lutenist's desk.
It is out-of-print but an on-demand reprint can be
acquired.  Perhaps someone can post the information
(David?).

**Dieter Kirsch and Lenz Meirott,
Berliner Lautentabulaturen in Krakau : beschreibender
Katalog der handschriftlichen Tabulaturen für Laute und
verwandte Instrumente in der Biblioteka Jagielloñska
Kraków aus dem
Besitz der ehemaligen Preussischen Staatsbibliothek
Berlin.
( Mainz ; New York : Schott, c1992), xxxiv, 432 p. :
ill., music ; 25 cm.
Schriften der Musikhochschule Würzburg ; Bd. 3.

NOTE: Catalog of intabulation incipits for lute, guitar
and related   plucked instruments from the middle of the
16th century (ms. 40154) until the end of the 18th
century (ms. 40150)

==ajn.
- Original Message - 
From: "Peter Martin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Lute list" 
Sent: Friday, April 20, 2007 4:26 AM
Subject: [LUTE] Spinacino


> My Minkoff facsimile of Spinacino says that the
> original unique copy held in
> Berlin before the second world war has disappeared,
> and that the facsimile
> was made from photographs.  But I seem to remember
> reading somewhere that
> the original had been found again.  Is this true?
>
> -- 
> Peter Martin
> Belle Serre
> La Caulie
> 81100 Castres
> France
> tel: 0033 5 63 35 68 46
> e: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> web: www.silvius.co.uk
> http://absolute81.blogspot.com/
>
> --
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>

[LUTE] Re: Spinacino

[Michal Gondko]

When Claude Chauvel was in Basel some years ago, he said that it's in the
Jagiellonian Library in Krakow, which now holds part of the Prussian
collection that was in Berlin before the Second World War.

M

On 4/20/07 10:26 AM, "Peter Martin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> My Minkoff facsimile of Spinacino says that the original unique copy held in
> Berlin before the second world war has disappeared, and that the facsimile
> was made from photographs.  But I seem to remember reading somewhere that
> the original had been found again.  Is this true?




To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html