[LUTE] Re: Spinacino/Capirola
It's good to know you're paying attention. Since Spinacino's books (1507) and Capirola's manuscript (circa 1511) are essentially from the same time frame, and really represents late 15th century repertory and practice, we don't know for certain who was copying whom. But (if you read my last blog post on Bembo) at the time, the idea of imitation was an indication of acknowledgement and respect, and not to be considered the sort of plagiarism that is the basis for songwriting lawsuits so common today. As Martin Shepard points out in the Lute News, Capirola also includes a quotation from the famous Benedictus by Isaac in the same recercar. By the way, the particular section you mentioned should really be considered to be in triple time. RA __ From: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu on behalf of Tristan von Neumann Sent: Saturday, June 6, 2020 7:10 PM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Spinacino/Capirola *rubs his chin* Hmmm. so why exactly are m. 43ff in Capirola f.6v literally m. 17ff in Spinacino No 37? To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Spinacino colloquium
Sean, I was away for the week-end and coming home now (sunaday evening French time) I find your message about the Spinaciono coloquium in Tours, last December. I wasn't there unfortunately, but a friend who attended the colloquium did a nice report on the French lute list. Alas, for you, it's in French, but that could be a good opportunity to brush up you old school French ;-)) . If you rellay can't find your way arounf, I'll try ro post a translation in a week's time when I come back from a week's well served holidays on the other side of the Mediterranean ! It's only a report, but quite worth reading. All the best, Jean-Marie Here's the text in question written by Jean-Paul Bazin, an excellent French mandora, mandolino etc. player : Sabine Meine (Institut allemand à Rome) présentait une communication sur les frottoles chez Spinacino, titre un peu provocateur puisque s¹il est un des recueils de Petrucci tourné vers la musique franco-flamande, c¹est bien celui-là ! En fait de titres italiens, il n¹y a que des pièces de ceux-ci (9 sur 81 au total) transcrites dans les recueils de 1507... Elle notait aussi que le contraste entre le goût courtisan et le vulgaire de la frottole n¹apparaissait pas chez Dalza, que la volubilité littéraire faisait plutôt place en musique à une sorte de répétition circulaire (besoin de variations, de diminutions ?) et à la question si un genre vocal peut résister à la tablature, elle concluait qu¹il fallait connaître l¹original vocal pour goûter la version pour luth. Tim Crawford (Goldsmith University London) parlait, lui, de la musique de danse pour luth vers 1500, notamment autour du ms. London add. 31389, qui comme le ms. Thibault, ne contient pas d¹indications de rythmes. Une pavana svizzera contenue dans ce manuscrit est 4 fois plus longue qu¹une pavane de Dalza, et son saltarello 2 fois plus long. La pavana ala ferrarese de Jo. Antonio da Bergamo, du même manuscrit, est de la forme ABCBCBDBDE, alors que celle de Dalza a pour structure : AABBCAAA BCAB, qu¹est-ce donc que la pavane à la Ferraraise ??? Il a également présenté des manuscrits conservés à Munich, dont un (le 1511B) contient le même type de répertoire de danses qu¹un manuscrit de clavecin conservé à Venise. Gianluigi Bello a présenté une proposition intéressante d¹interprétation des 22 à 27 pièces de Spinacino également contenues dans les publications précédentes de Petrucci : les jouer ensemble, avec luth + instruments aux différentes voix, ce qui s¹est déjà fait sporadiquement sur quelques enregistrements, mais qui en fait semble fonctionner systématiquement (démonstration audio-visuelle sur Finale à l¹appui !) à l¹exception de menus problèmes de ficta à régler ponctuellement. Les diminutions du luth sont souvent des ponts pendant des périodes de repos des voix, parfois le luth complète l¹harmonie, en tous cas il est toujours audible, et de manière extrêmement idiomatique. Conclusion (d¹un non-luthiste) : Spinacino a beaucoup plus de force joué en complément que seul ! Les résultats de ses recherches sont à écouter sur le CD Marguerit chez ³E Lucevan Le Stelle² http://www.elucevanlestelle.com/ de Marco Mencoboni, petit producteur italien indépendant (preneur de son et organiste, personnalité à voir aussi sur Youtube sous la rubrique Fossombrone, ville natale de Petrucci), enregistré par Emanuela Galli et Franco Pavan entre autres... Très sympathique personnage, et loin de moi l¹idée de vouloir lui faire de la pub ;-) Vladimir Ivanoff a réexhumé sa thèse (début des années 1980 !) pour nous parler en détail des 6 duos de Spinacino, avec transparents d¹époque à l¹appui (une présentation à l¹ordinateur eût été beaucoup trop moderne !). Il considère que même si ces duos sont destinés aux amateurs (publications), ils sont le fait d¹un professionnel aguerri. Spinacino représente selon lui les derniers feux d¹une pratique qui semble avoir commencé à disparaître dans les années 1480-1500 (selon les occurrences iconographiques). Agricola conseille d¹ailleurs aux luthistes (en 1528) de prendre exemple sur les organistes pour orner, preuve sans doute que cet art très germanique du duo de luths avait disparu d¹Allemagne à cette époque... Tout comme les pièces du livre de Buxheim, les duos de Spinacino ne doivent selon lui pas être joués tel quels, mais doivent plutôt servir d¹exemple de traitement de pièces vocales. Keith Polk (retraité de l'University of New Hampshire !) a présenté une vue très fine du luth en Italie à la fin du 15e siècle, divisant son propos entre luthistes italiens et luthistes étrangers, luthistes professionnels et luthistes amateurs, luthistes en solo ou en ensemble (avec le passage du plectre aux doigts, et l¹effet produit sur le public par Paumann jouant polyphoniquement lors de son passage en Italie en 1470), luthistes de tradition ou d¹innovation, avec le rôle novateur de la cour de Ferrare où exerçait Pietrobono, avec le compositeur de Johanne Martini, vite rejoint dans
[LUTE] Re: Spinacino colloquium
Too many typing mistakes, too much hurry, sorry about that, Sean ! Here's the corrected intro to the text : Sean, I was away for the week-end and coming home now (Sunday evening French time) I find your message about the Spinacino colloquium in Tours, last December. I wasn't there unfortunately, but a friend who attended the colloquium did a nice report on the French lute list. Alas, for you, it's in French, but that could be a good opportunity to brush up your old school French ;-)) . If you really can't find your way around, I'll try to post a translation in a week's time, when I come back from a week's well deserved holidays on the other side of the Mediterranean ! It's only a report, but well worth reading. All the best, Jean-Marie Expéditeur original:Jean-Marie Poirier Adresse expéditeur original: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sean, I was away for the week-end and coming home now (sunaday evening French time) I find your message about the Spinaciono coloquium in Tours, last December. I wasn't there unfortunately, but a friend who attended the colloquium did a nice report on the French lute list. Alas, for you, it's in French, but that could be a good opportunity to brush up you old school French ;-)) . If you rellay can't find your way arounf, I'll try ro post a translation in a week's time when I come back from a week's well served holidays on the other side of the Mediterranean ! It's only a report, but quite worth reading. All the best, Jean-Marie Jean-Marie Poirier [EMAIL PROTECTED] 17-02-2008 N ¶è®ß¶¬+-±ç¥Ëbú+«b¢vÛiÿü0ÁË j»f¢ëayÛ¿Á·?ë^iÙ¢ø§uìa¶i
[LUTE] Re: Spinacino colloquium
Thanks, Jean-Marie, this is much appreciated! I sometimes think FS is the lutiest of the bunch and here we've been for 30 years, terrified of him! Sean On Feb 17, 2008, at 1:30 PM, Jean-Marie Poirier wrote: Too many typing mistakes, too much hurry, sorry about that, Sean ! Here's the corrected intro to the text : Sean, I was away for the week-end and coming home now (Sunday evening French time) I find your message about the Spinacino colloquium in Tours, last December. I wasn't there unfortunately, but a friend who attended the colloquium did a nice report on the French lute list. Alas, for you, it's in French, but that could be a good opportunity to brush up your old school French ;-)) . If you really can't find your way around, I'll try to post a translation in a week's time, when I come back from a week's well deserved holidays on the other side of the Mediterranean ! It's only a report, but well worth reading. All the best, Jean-Marie Expéditeur original:Jean-Marie Poirier Adresse expéditeur original: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sean, I was away for the week-end and coming home now (sunaday evening French time) I find your message about the Spinaciono coloquium in Tours, last December. I wasn't there unfortunately, but a friend who attended the colloquium did a nice report on the French lute list. Alas, for you, it's in French, but that could be a good opportunity to brush up you old school French ;-)) . If you rellay can't find your way arounf, I'll try ro post a translation in a week's time when I come back from a week's well served holidays on the other side of the Mediterranean ! It's only a report, but quite worth reading. All the best, Jean-Marie Jean-Marie Poirier [EMAIL PROTECTED] 17-02-2008 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Spinacino Online
December 4th, 2007 Dear Lutenists: The Spinacino Lute manuscript as an electronic book is a great gift. You can almost feel the soft vellum under your hands. Almost makes one contemplate the possibility of reprints in part or in whole. Illustrated manuscripts are so exciting, it is very wonderful to be able to have a record of the original work and to have access to such gifts of the heart. Many thanks to John Griffiths, with thanks, Rebecca Banks Tea at Tympani Lane Records www.tympanilanerecords.com _ Introducing the City @ Live! Take a tour! http://getyourliveid.ca/?icid=LIVEIDENCA006 -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Spinacino online
Dear Denys, It could be that the missing 2 on folio 37v is something that Mrs. Minkoff retouched. This would suggest that in 1992 she re-used the 1978 facsimile pages. Hers was an innocent activity. She just wanted everything to look neat and clean. When she was criticized (I think it was in a review by Bob Spencer), she took the remarks in very good humor, and realized her mistake. I'll get on to some examples of publisher's corrections. And why it is helpful to know where a given print came from. In a sense it sometimes has to do with establishing authority for a given reading. ==AJN (Boston, Mass.) ++ This week's free download from Classical Music Library is _Prokofiev's Sonata for Violin and Piano No. 1, Op. 80___ Go to my web page: http://mysite.verizon.net/arthurjness/ For some free scores, go to: http://mysite.verizon.net/vzepq31c/arthurjnesslutescores/ - Original Message - From: Denys Stephens [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'Arthur Ness' [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'Lute Net' lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 5:00 PM Subject: RE: [LUTE] Re: Spinacino online Dear Arthur, Your information about the Minkoff facsimilies is very useful to know. My own copy of the Spinacino facsimile is dated 1992, but I suspect that the images from the original edition may have been re-used for later re-prints. Working that out for sure would be a study in itself! I find it fascinating that for years we have only known Spinacino through the Minkoff edition taken from the pre-war photos in Paris, which made them our primary source for this work. Now these new images will also become a primary source for those of us unable to visit Cracow to see the original.Stephen Fryer is of course right in pointing out that it's presumably the slight distortion of the pages themselves that causes the stave lines to look distorted. It seems clear from the Minkoff print that this distortion was not evident in the photographs used to make their facsimile, so the damage has occurred since then. So we really need to use the Minkoff facsimile and the new images now when studying this source. At first I thought that seeing these new images would not tell us anything new about Spinacino's music, but now I'm not so sure. Just casually looking through the new images this evening f.37v of the Libro Primo caught my eye - in the bottom stave, 7th complete measure, the fourth event looks like a very indistinct '2' and someone has faintly added a 2 below the stave line, plus a '1' (or an extension of the bar line). In the Minkoff print all that can be seen for that event is a fingering dot and a crotchet sign - no tablature numeral at all. Perhaps there may not be many more instances like that, but they are certainly worth looking out for. Do tell us more about the publishers 'corrections' you know about. The more one learns about these things, the more apparent it becomes that 'facsimilies'are not all that we think they are! Best wishes, Denys -Original Message- From: Arthur Ness [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 02 December 2007 23:07 To: Lute Net Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spinacino online Dear Denys, I think it was about the time of the Utrecht lute conference where mention was made of Mrs. Minkoff's practice of retouching her facsimiles. She attended and took Bob Spencer's criticism at one of the sessions with typical good humor. The Minkoff facsimile first dates from 1978. Well before the criticism was expressed. She stopped the practice immediately. I wonder if she re-did the Spinacino facsijmile for the 1998ish reprint. That's a very interesting analysis you have made from a comparison of the two sets of images. During WW_II the ex-Berlin prints were stored in a monestary in Poland. It could well have been cold and damp. As I recall, however, they were very carefully packed. I'll have to tell you about some other instances of publisher's corrections. You are quite correct in looking at all known copies of a print, if possible. And in this case of the same print. ==AJN (Boston, Mass.) This week's free download from Classical Music Library is _Prokofiev's Sonata for Violin and Piano No. 1, Op. 80___ Go to my web page: http://mysite.verizon.net/arthurjness/ For some free scores, go to: http://mysite.verizon.net/vzepq31c/arthurjnesslutescores/ - Original Message - From: Denys Stephens [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 5:48 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spinacino online Dear Arthur All, Even though we are looking at two sets of images of the same prints, the published and online facsimilies are interesting to compare. Two things are immediately apparent. The library stamp has been removed from the title page of the Minkoff edition, which is fair enough as it's not part of the original, but it does make one wonder about any other details that might have been 'retouched.' Secondly, many of the stave
[LUTE] Re: Spinacino online
I think I'll be buying that one. E lucevan le stelle Records is a brilliant label - I want to buy everything they've released. And their CD artwork and booklets are the best - have a look at the cover for La Musique Dangereuse: http://www.elucevanlestelle.com/la-musique-dangereuse/ Andrew On 1 Dec 2007, at 09:38, wolfgang wiehe wrote: Dear denys, Do you noticed differences to the minkoff facsimile? By the way: E lucevan le stelle just published their spinacino cd. Greetings Wolfgang w. , member of the 7-c renaissance lute group! My one and only... http://www.elucevanlestelle.com/musicstore/website/it/index.php? section_ name=music_store_item_showarticle_obj_id=416article_category=CD To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Spinacino online
Dear Arthur, Your information about the Minkoff facsimilies is very useful to know. My own copy of the Spinacino facsimile is dated 1992, but I suspect that the images from the original edition may have been re-used for later re-prints. Working that out for sure would be a study in itself! I find it fascinating that for years we have only known Spinacino through the Minkoff edition taken from the pre-war photos in Paris, which made them our primary source for this work. Now these new images will also become a primary source for those of us unable to visit Cracow to see the original.Stephen Fryer is of course right in pointing out that it's presumably the slight distortion of the pages themselves that causes the stave lines to look distorted. It seems clear from the Minkoff print that this distortion was not evident in the photographs used to make their facsimile, so the damage has occurred since then. So we really need to use the Minkoff facsimile and the new images now when studying this source. At first I thought that seeing these new images would not tell us anything new about Spinacino's music, but now I'm not so sure. Just casually looking through the new images this evening f.37v of the Libro Primo caught my eye - in the bottom stave, 7th complete measure, the fourth event looks like a very indistinct '2' and someone has faintly added a 2 below the stave line, plus a '1' (or an extension of the bar line). In the Minkoff print all that can be seen for that event is a fingering dot and a crotchet sign - no tablature numeral at all. Perhaps there may not be many more instances like that, but they are certainly worth looking out for. Do tell us more about the publishers 'corrections' you know about. The more one learns about these things, the more apparent it becomes that 'facsimilies'are not all that we think they are! Best wishes, Denys -Original Message- From: Arthur Ness [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 02 December 2007 23:07 To: Lute Net Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spinacino online Dear Denys, I think it was about the time of the Utrecht lute conference where mention was made of Mrs. Minkoff's practice of retouching her facsimiles. She attended and took Bob Spencer's criticism at one of the sessions with typical good humor. The Minkoff facsimile first dates from 1978. Well before the criticism was expressed. She stopped the practice immediately. I wonder if she re-did the Spinacino facsijmile for the 1998ish reprint. That's a very interesting analysis you have made from a comparison of the two sets of images. During WW_II the ex-Berlin prints were stored in a monestary in Poland. It could well have been cold and damp. As I recall, however, they were very carefully packed. I'll have to tell you about some other instances of publisher's corrections. You are quite correct in looking at all known copies of a print, if possible. And in this case of the same print. ==AJN (Boston, Mass.) This week's free download from Classical Music Library is _Prokofiev's Sonata for Violin and Piano No. 1, Op. 80___ Go to my web page: http://mysite.verizon.net/arthurjness/ For some free scores, go to: http://mysite.verizon.net/vzepq31c/arthurjnesslutescores/ - Original Message - From: Denys Stephens [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 5:48 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spinacino online Dear Arthur All, Even though we are looking at two sets of images of the same prints, the published and online facsimilies are interesting to compare. Two things are immediately apparent. The library stamp has been removed from the title page of the Minkoff edition, which is fair enough as it's not part of the original, but it does make one wonder about any other details that might have been 'retouched.' Secondly, many of the stave lines in the online images are very distorted, but in the Minkoff print they are dead straight. So the stave lines must surely have been straight when the Paris photos were taken. I wonder if the distortion that has since occurred might have been from the book being in damp conditions during the war years? At least, it's good to know that Petrucci didn't print those wobbly lines! It's also very nice to see the corrections Petrucci's workshop made to misprints - see for example f.32v, Libro Primo,fourth measure of 'Adieu mes amours' where the second event has been corrected.Or f.5r of the Libro Primo, top stave, 6th measure, first event: the handwritten '5' is reasonably clear in both versions, but in the online copy it's much clearer that the '3' below it is handwritten, and that a further tablature letter below that has been erased.Despite the fact that we are in theory looking at two identical sets of images, there are subtle differences that are worth looking out for. Best wishes, Denys -Original Message- From: Arthur Ness [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 01 December 2007 23:00
[LUTE] Re: Spinacino online
Dear Sean, Just to avoid any misunderstanding, I didn't have anything to do with the online publication of the Spinacino prints, but since John Griffiths anounced that I would be happening I had been looking forward to seeing it, and I thought it would be good to let everyone know when it became available. The arrival of this online facsimile has been organised in conjunction with the conference held last weekend in Tours, France, which I understand John played a significant role in organising. Hopefully, as John appears to be reading this list these days, he can pass our thanks on to all those who have made this facsimile avaiable, most of all the Jagellionian University in Cracow who now own the original. Best wishes, Denys -Original Message- From: Sean Smith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 03 December 2007 04:40 To: Lute Net Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spinacino online That is simply stunning! Many thanks to you and John Griffiths. Sean On Nov 30, 2007, at 3:26 PM, Denys Stephens wrote: Dear All, The digital facsimile of the two Spinacino books has gone online today as John Griffiths said it would in a mailing to the list a while ago: http://www.cesr.univ-tours.fr/ricercar/luth/corpus/ corpus_luthistes.php http://www.cesr.univ-tours.fr/ricercar/luth/corpus/corpus_luthistes.ph p The online view seems to be not functioning correctly but the option to download the complete volume in PDF format works perfectly. The PDF contains both books, so you only need to download it once. It's a great gift to the lute world, and a fine way to honour the 500th anniversary of the first printed lute books. Great thanks are due to all who made this possible. Best wishes, Denys http://www.cesr.univ-tours.fr/Ricercar/luth/corpus/fiche_source.php? id_sour ce=1 -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Spinacino online
Denys Stephens wrote: Just casually looking through the new images this evening f.37v of the Libro Primo caught my eye - in the bottom stave, 7th complete measure, the fourth event looks like a very indistinct '2' and someone has faintly added a 2 below the stave line, plus a '1' (or an extension of the bar line). You piqued my curiosity so I looked at the location in question. Only the top half of what is most probably a '2' appears to have been printed lightly. Below the staff someone has written in 2 ? (an expert in epigraphy could probably tell you where/when it was written in). -- Stephen Fryer Lund Computer Services ** The more answers I find, the more questions I have ** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Spinacino online
Denys Stephens wrote: Stephen Fryer is of course right in pointing out that it's presumably the slight distortion of the pages themselves that causes the stave lines to look distorted. It seems clear from the Minkoff print that this distortion was not evident in the photographs used to make their facsimile, so the damage has occurred since then. That depends on how the earlier pictures were taken. It might be that pressure was applied to the pages to force tham flat, which might be possible with the slight cockling involved. But then again, you could be right. -- Stephen Fryer Lund Computer Services ** The more answers I find, the more questions I have ** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Spinacino online
Dear Arthur All, Even though we are looking at two sets of images of the same prints, the published and online facsimilies are interesting to compare. Two things are immediately apparent. The library stamp has been removed from the title page of the Minkoff edition, which is fair enough as it's not part of the original, but it does make one wonder about any other details that might have been 'retouched.' Secondly, many of the stave lines in the online images are very distorted, but in the Minkoff print they are dead straight. So the stave lines must surely have been straight when the Paris photos were taken. I wonder if the distortion that has since occurred might have been from the book being in damp conditions during the war years? At least, it's good to know that Petrucci didn't print those wobbly lines! It's also very nice to see the corrections Petrucci's workshop made to misprints - see for example f.32v, Libro Primo,fourth measure of 'Adieu mes amours' where the second event has been corrected.Or f.5r of the Libro Primo, top stave, 6th measure, first event: the handwritten '5' is reasonably clear in both versions, but in the online copy it's much clearer that the '3' below it is handwritten, and that a further tablature letter below that has been erased.Despite the fact that we are in theory looking at two identical sets of images, there are subtle differences that are worth looking out for. Best wishes, Denys -Original Message- From: Arthur Ness [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 01 December 2007 23:00 To: Lute Net Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spinacino online - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 9:22 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spinacino online Dear Wolfgang, On 12/1/2007, wolfgang wiehe [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Do you noticed differences to the minkoff facsimile? Interesting! I have both. Could you show us what differences you have found thus far? All the best, Arto Dear Arto and friends, They are the same book. Before its discovery in Krakow, the only surviving copy of Spinacino (books 1 2) was in the Staatsbibliothek in Berlin (shelf number Mus. ant. pract. P680/1-2). It disappeared during WW_II, and was known after the war from a Photostat made by Genevieve Thibault (iirc), and deposited in the Bibliotheque nationale in Paris. The original Berlin copy (the only one known in modern days) turned up in Krakow about ten years ago. Thus the on-line digitalizecd copy and Mrs. Minkoff's facsimile are reproductions of the very same book. At one time, Mrs. Minkoff retouched some of pages in her facsimiles, but stopped that parctice after receiving complaints. In one instance she removed fingering dots that she thought were fly specs (or something like that).g But I do not know if she did so with her Spinacino facsimile, which is fairly late, and probably after she got the Word (from Bob Spencer). There is a modern edition of both books with transcrption and parallel tablature in H. L. Schmidt's dissertation at U of North Carlina at Chapel Hill. ==AJN (Boston, Mass.) This week's free download from Classical Music Library is _Prokofiev's Sonata for Violin and Piano No. 1, Op. 80___ Go to my web page: http://mysite.verizon.net/arthurjness/ For some free scores, go to: http://mysite.verizon.net/vzepq31c/arthurjnesslutescores/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Spinacino online
Dear Denys, I think it was about the time of the Utrecht lute conference where mention was made of Mrs. Minkoff's practice of retouching her facsimiles. She attended and took Bob Spencer's criticism at one of the sessions with typical good humor. The Minkoff facsimile first dates from 1978. Well before the criticism was expressed. She stopped the practice immediately. I wonder if she re-did the Spinacino facsijmile for the 1998ish reprint. That's a very interesting analysis you have made from a comparison of the two sets of images. During WW_II the ex-Berlin prints were stored in a monestary in Poland. It could well have been cold and damp. As I recall, however, they were very carefully packed. I'll have to tell you about some other instances of publisher's corrections. You are quite correct in looking at all known copies of a print, if possible. And in this case of the same print. ==AJN (Boston, Mass.) This week's free download from Classical Music Library is _Prokofiev's Sonata for Violin and Piano No. 1, Op. 80___ Go to my web page: http://mysite.verizon.net/arthurjness/ For some free scores, go to: http://mysite.verizon.net/vzepq31c/arthurjnesslutescores/ - Original Message - From: Denys Stephens [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 5:48 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spinacino online Dear Arthur All, Even though we are looking at two sets of images of the same prints, the published and online facsimilies are interesting to compare. Two things are immediately apparent. The library stamp has been removed from the title page of the Minkoff edition, which is fair enough as it's not part of the original, but it does make one wonder about any other details that might have been 'retouched.' Secondly, many of the stave lines in the online images are very distorted, but in the Minkoff print they are dead straight. So the stave lines must surely have been straight when the Paris photos were taken. I wonder if the distortion that has since occurred might have been from the book being in damp conditions during the war years? At least, it's good to know that Petrucci didn't print those wobbly lines! It's also very nice to see the corrections Petrucci's workshop made to misprints - see for example f.32v, Libro Primo,fourth measure of 'Adieu mes amours' where the second event has been corrected.Or f.5r of the Libro Primo, top stave, 6th measure, first event: the handwritten '5' is reasonably clear in both versions, but in the online copy it's much clearer that the '3' below it is handwritten, and that a further tablature letter below that has been erased.Despite the fact that we are in theory looking at two identical sets of images, there are subtle differences that are worth looking out for. Best wishes, Denys -Original Message- From: Arthur Ness [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 01 December 2007 23:00 To: Lute Net Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spinacino online - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 9:22 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spinacino online Dear Wolfgang, On 12/1/2007, wolfgang wiehe [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Do you noticed differences to the minkoff facsimile? Interesting! I have both. Could you show us what differences you have found thus far? All the best, Arto Dear Arto and friends, They are the same book. Before its discovery in Krakow, the only surviving copy of Spinacino (books 1 2) was in the Staatsbibliothek in Berlin (shelf number Mus. ant. pract. P680/1-2). It disappeared during WW_II, and was known after the war from a Photostat made by Genevieve Thibault (iirc), and deposited in the Bibliotheque nationale in Paris. The original Berlin copy (the only one known in modern days) turned up in Krakow about ten years ago. Thus the on-line digitalizecd copy and Mrs. Minkoff's facsimile are reproductions of the very same book. At one time, Mrs. Minkoff retouched some of pages in her facsimiles, but stopped that parctice after receiving complaints. In one instance she removed fingering dots that she thought were fly specs (or something like that).g But I do not know if she did so with her Spinacino facsimile, which is fairly late, and probably after she got the Word (from Bob Spencer). There is a modern edition of both books with transcrption and parallel tablature in H. L. Schmidt's dissertation at U of North Carlina at Chapel Hill. ==AJN (Boston, Mass.) This week's free download from Classical Music Library is _Prokofiev's Sonata for Violin and Piano No. 1, Op. 80___ Go to my web page: http://mysite.verizon.net/arthurjness/ For some free scores, go to: http://mysite.verizon.net/vzepq31c/arthurjnesslutescores/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Spinacino online
That is simply stunning! Many thanks to you and John Griffiths. Sean On Nov 30, 2007, at 3:26 PM, Denys Stephens wrote: Dear All, The digital facsimile of the two Spinacino books has gone online today as John Griffiths said it would in a mailing to the list a while ago: http://www.cesr.univ-tours.fr/ricercar/luth/corpus/ corpus_luthistes.php http://www.cesr.univ-tours.fr/ricercar/luth/corpus/corpus_luthistes.php The online view seems to be not functioning correctly but the option to download the complete volume in PDF format works perfectly. The PDF contains both books, so you only need to download it once. It's a great gift to the lute world, and a fine way to honour the 500th anniversary of the first printed lute books. Great thanks are due to all who made this possible. Best wishes, Denys http://www.cesr.univ-tours.fr/Ricercar/luth/corpus/fiche_source.php? id_sour ce=1 -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Spinacino online
Denys Stephens wrote: Secondly, many of the stave lines in the online images are very distorted, but in the Minkoff print they are dead straight. So the stave lines must surely have been straight when the Paris photos were taken. I wonder if the distortion that has since occurred might have been from the book being in damp conditions during the war years? At least, it's good to know that Petrucci didn't print those wobbly lines! The lines are straight; it is only the 'cockling' of the pages that makes them appear slightly wavy. You can see the effect at the top and bottom edges of the pages too. It doesnt take very much in the way of dampness to cause this to happen; very much and the pages either mildew or stick together. At what point (or points?) in the book's history this occurred I couldn't guess. -- Stephen Fryer Lund Computer Services ** The more answers I find, the more questions I have ** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Spinacino online
Dear denys, Do you noticed differences to the minkoff facsimile? By the way: E lucevan le stelle just published their spinacino cd. Greetings Wolfgang w. , member of the 7-c renaissance lute group! My one and only... http://www.elucevanlestelle.com/musicstore/website/it/index.php?section_ name=music_store_item_showarticle_obj_id=416article_category=CD -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: Denys Stephens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Gesendet: Samstag, 1. Dezember 2007 00:26 An: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Betreff: [LUTE] Spinacino online Dear All, The digital facsimile of the two Spinacino books has gone online today as John Griffiths said it would in a mailing to the list a while ago: http://www.cesr.univ-tours.fr/ricercar/luth/corpus/corpus_luthistes.php http://www.cesr.univ-tours.fr/ricercar/luth/corpus/corpus_luthistes.php The online view seems to be not functioning correctly but the option to download the complete volume in PDF format works perfectly. The PDF contains both books, so you only need to download it once. It's a great gift to the lute world, and a fine way to honour the 500th anniversary of the first printed lute books. Great thanks are due to all who made this possible. Best wishes, Denys http://www.cesr.univ-tours.fr/Ricercar/luth/corpus/fiche_source.php?id_ sour ce=1 -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Spinacino online
Very good news! Now we can check the facsimile against Kenneth Be on YouTube, and D. Towne on the Fronimo page (and perhaps someone may even take on to put also book two there?). Kudos to all involved in putting this landmark facsimile freely on the net! Best wishes G. PS. The first duet Juli amours sounds definitely wrong in unison. I couldn't figure out the tuning interval. Are the other duets all in unison? - Original Message - From: Denys Stephens [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 12:26 AM Subject: [LUTE] Spinacino online Dear All, The digital facsimile of the two Spinacino books has gone online today as John Griffiths said it would in a mailing to the list a while ago: http://www.cesr.univ-tours.fr/ricercar/luth/corpus/corpus_luthistes.php http://www.cesr.univ-tours.fr/ricercar/luth/corpus/corpus_luthistes.php The online view seems to be not functioning correctly but the option to download the complete volume in PDF format works perfectly. The PDF contains both books, so you only need to download it once. It's a great gift to the lute world, and a fine way to honour the 500th anniversary of the first printed lute books. Great thanks are due to all who made this possible. Best wishes, Denys http://www.cesr.univ-tours.fr/Ricercar/luth/corpus/fiche_source.php?id_sour ce=1 -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Spinacino online
Dear Wolfgang, On 12/1/2007, wolfgang wiehe [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Do you noticed differences to the minkoff facsimile? Interesting! I have both. Could you show us what differences you have found thus far? All the best, Arto To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Spinacino online
- Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 9:22 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spinacino online Dear Wolfgang, On 12/1/2007, wolfgang wiehe [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Do you noticed differences to the minkoff facsimile? Interesting! I have both. Could you show us what differences you have found thus far? All the best, Arto Dear Arto and friends, They are the same book. Before its discovery in Krakow, the only surviving copy of Spinacino (books 1 2) was in the Staatsbibliothek in Berlin (shelf number Mus. ant. pract. P680/1-2). It disappeared during WW_II, and was known after the war from a Photostat made by Genevieve Thibault (iirc), and deposited in the Bibliotheque nationale in Paris. The original Berlin copy (the only one known in modern days) turned up in Krakow about ten years ago. Thus the on-line digitalizecd copy and Mrs. Minkoff's facsimile are reproductions of the very same book. At one time, Mrs. Minkoff retouched some of pages in her facsimiles, but stopped that parctice after receiving complaints. In one instance she removed fingering dots that she thought were fly specs (or something like that).g But I do not know if she did so with her Spinacino facsimile, which is fairly late, and probably after she got the Word (from Bob Spencer). There is a modern edition of both books with transcrption and parallel tablature in H. L. Schmidt's dissertation at U of North Carlina at Chapel Hill. ==AJN (Boston, Mass.) This week's free download from Classical Music Library is _Prokofiev's Sonata for Violin and Piano No. 1, Op. 80___ Go to my web page: http://mysite.verizon.net/arthurjness/ For some free scores, go to: http://mysite.verizon.net/vzepq31c/arthurjnesslutescores/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Spinacino
what a wonderful video and what a wonderful CD-label. w. http://www.elucevanlestelle.com/musicstore/website/it/index.php?section_name=music_store_item_listarticle_category=CD Original-Nachricht Datum: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 13:40:06 +0100 Von: G. Crona [EMAIL PROTECTED] An: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Spinacino Tasty, timely tactful http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXIEE0_L9Pk To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[LUTE] Re: Spinacino on YouTube (Kenneth Be)
Also wanted to point out a Weiss Baroque lute duet which Kenneth and I played: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5OGyGUuSUmQ Along with an Allemande and Courante of the Weiss sonata I have been recording bit by bit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKrwMitnYYk http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dqj8czuO1Yk DS On Aug 8, 2007, at 2:06 PM, Kenneth Bé wrote: To the LuteList: I invite all to hear and see some of my performances of Spinacino. Just visit my new YouTube user page: http://www.youtube.com/user/6cLuter Let's all celebrate in this 500th anniversary of this milestone publication! regards, Kenneth Be -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Spinacino on YouTube (Kenneth Be)
On the subject of Spinacino, we still have a few copies left of our CD, La Rota Fortuna, recorded in celebration of the 500th anniversary of Spinacino's 1507 publication. [1]http://www.mignarda.com/cds/fortuna Ron Andrico Donna Stewart _ [2]Booking a flight? Know when to buy with airfare predictions on MSN Travel. References 1. http://www.mignarda.com/cds/fortuna 2. http://g.msn.com/8HMBENUS/2755??PS=47575 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Spinacino
http://www.musikschulen-sh.de/feriennote/BigBand.php?sessionid scroll down to the bottom picture. That's where they went. But a general (Russian? German?) made the castle into his headquarters. A junior office opened the boxes and realized what they were. Because he feared the general's headquarters might be bombarded, he took the boxes of books a few miles down the road and stored them in another castle. After the war, when the Germans came to get their boxes they were not where they left them. They asked the locals. Oh, they had seen soldiers burning books to keep warm. The orignal scores to Magic Flute and Beethoven's Fifth had served to cook eggs as far as the world knew. The Polish authorities found the boxes and in secret moved them to Cracow as war reparations. Only about 15 years ago did they acknowledge that they had them. Everything survived! Arthur. - Original Message - From: Peter Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Arthur Ness [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Lute list lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, April 20, 2007 10:23 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spinacino Thank you Arthur. What an extraordinary story, and what a happy ending. Howard Mayer Brown's book certainly lives on my desk. A good quality reprint is available on demand from iuniverse.com for the very reasonable price of $32.95. 560 jam-packed pages. http://www.iuniverse.com/bookstore/book_detail.asp?isbn=1-58348-525-2 Peter On 20/04/07, Arthur Ness [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yes, the photostats made for Gen=E8vieve Thibault, are now in the Biblioth=E8que nationale. The unique Berlin copy of Spinacino, long thought destroyed, was acknowledged by Polish authorities to be in Cracow only about 15 years ago. In Brown's bibliography* ALL of the prints marked D:Bds (L) [for Germany: Berlin, Deutsche Staatsbibliothek (Lost)] have survived at the Jagiellonska Library in Cracow (about 50 16th-century titles). When I was in Berlin, I was able to consult the pre-war card catalogue in then East Berlin, and made a listing of all the lute prints and manuscripts that had been in the former Prussian State Library, including the call-numbers. When finally only about 15 years ago, the Polish authorities admitted they had the Berlin materials, I sent the list to an American guitarist studying in Cracow. He confirmed that each and every title was extant (except for an Adriannsen print). At first there was confusion, because many of the volumes were Sammelb=E4nde (bound volumes containing several often unrelated prints). When the collection was catalogued, reputedly by Polish students, only the first item in each Sammelband was noted. So through an oversight, many prints remained uncatalogued and were thought to have been lost. Also all of the manuscripts of lute music have survived, and an inventory* by Dieter Kirsch was published a few years ago. So a third of the treasures of surely the most important collection of music ever assembled were for forty+ years thought to have been destroyed during World War II. (These included Mozart's autograph manuscript for _Magic Flute._) I hope Stuart Walsh took a look when he was in Cracow. There's even some guitar music there, too. *Howard Mayer Brown. Instrumental Music printed before 1600: A bibliography. (Cambridge: Harvard U. Press, 1965). This is a book that belongs on every lutenist's desk. It is out-of-print but an on-demand reprint can be acquired. Perhaps someone can post the information (David?). **Dieter Kirsch and Lenz Meirott, Berliner Lautentabulaturen in Krakau : beschreibender Katalog der handschriftlichen Tabulaturen fur Laute und verwandte Instrumente in der Biblioteka Jagiello=F1ska Krakow aus dem Besitz der ehemaligen Preussischen Staatsbibliothek Berlin. ( Mainz ; New York : Schott, c1992), xxxiv, 432 p. : ill., music ; 25 cm. Schriften der Musikhochschule Wurzburg ; Bd. 3. NOTE: Catalog of intabulation incipits for lute, guitar and related plucked instruments from the middle of the 16th century (ms. 40154) until the end of the 18th century (ms. 40150) ==ajn. - Original Message - From: Peter Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lute list lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, April 20, 2007 4:26 AM Subject: [LUTE] Spinacino My Minkoff facsimile of Spinacino says that the original unique copy held in Berlin before the second world war has disappeared, and that the facsimile was made from photographs. But I seem to remember reading somewhere that the original had been found again. Is this true? -- Peter Martin Belle Serre La Caulie 81100 Castres France tel: 0033 5 63 35 68 46 e: [EMAIL PROTECTED] web: www.silvius.co.uk http://absolute81.blogspot.com/ -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Peter Martin Belle Serre La Caulie 81100 Castres France tel
[LUTE] Re: Spinacino
what a beautiful story! Thank you for telling it! Manolo Arthur Ness wrote: http://www.musikschulen-sh.de/feriennote/BigBand.php?sessionid scroll down to the bottom picture. That's where they went. But a general (Russian? German?) made the castle into his headquarters. A junior office opened the boxes and realized what they were. Because he feared the general's headquarters might be bombarded, he took the boxes of books a few miles down the road and stored them in another castle. After the war, when the Germans came to get their boxes they were not where they left them. They asked the locals. Oh, they had seen soldiers burning books to keep warm. The orignal scores to Magic Flute and Beethoven's Fifth had served to cook eggs as far as the world knew. The Polish authorities found the boxes and in secret moved them to Cracow as war reparations. Only about 15 years ago did they acknowledge that they had them. Everything survived! Arthur. - Original Message - From: Peter Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Arthur Ness [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Lute list lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, April 20, 2007 10:23 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spinacino Thank you Arthur. What an extraordinary story, and what a happy ending. Howard Mayer Brown's book certainly lives on my desk. A good quality reprint is available on demand from iuniverse.com for the very reasonable price of $32.95. 560 jam-packed pages. http://www.iuniverse.com/bookstore/book_detail.asp?isbn=1-58348-525-2 Peter On 20/04/07, Arthur Ness [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yes, the photostats made for Gen=E8vieve Thibault, are now in the Biblioth=E8que nationale. The unique Berlin copy of Spinacino, long thought destroyed, was acknowledged by Polish authorities to be in Cracow only about 15 years ago. In Brown's bibliography* ALL of the prints marked D:Bds (L) [for Germany: Berlin, Deutsche Staatsbibliothek (Lost)] have survived at the Jagiellonska Library in Cracow (about 50 16th-century titles). When I was in Berlin, I was able to consult the pre-war card catalogue in then East Berlin, and made a listing of all the lute prints and manuscripts that had been in the former Prussian State Library, including the call-numbers. When finally only about 15 years ago, the Polish authorities admitted they had the Berlin materials, I sent the list to an American guitarist studying in Cracow. He confirmed that each and every title was extant (except for an Adriannsen print). At first there was confusion, because many of the volumes were Sammelb=E4nde (bound volumes containing several often unrelated prints). When the collection was catalogued, reputedly by Polish students, only the first item in each Sammelband was noted. So through an oversight, many prints remained uncatalogued and were thought to have been lost. Also all of the manuscripts of lute music have survived, and an inventory* by Dieter Kirsch was published a few years ago. So a third of the treasures of surely the most important collection of music ever assembled were for forty+ years thought to have been destroyed during World War II. (These included Mozart's autograph manuscript for _Magic Flute._) I hope Stuart Walsh took a look when he was in Cracow. There's even some guitar music there, too. *Howard Mayer Brown. Instrumental Music printed before 1600: A bibliography. (Cambridge: Harvard U. Press, 1965). This is a book that belongs on every lutenist's desk. It is out-of-print but an on-demand reprint can be acquired. Perhaps someone can post the information (David?). **Dieter Kirsch and Lenz Meirott, Berliner Lautentabulaturen in Krakau : beschreibender Katalog der handschriftlichen Tabulaturen fur Laute und verwandte Instrumente in der Biblioteka Jagiello=F1ska Krakow aus dem Besitz der ehemaligen Preussischen Staatsbibliothek Berlin. ( Mainz ; New York : Schott, c1992), xxxiv, 432 p. : ill., music ; 25 cm. Schriften der Musikhochschule Wurzburg ; Bd. 3. NOTE: Catalog of intabulation incipits for lute, guitar and related plucked instruments from the middle of the 16th century (ms. 40154) until the end of the 18th century (ms. 40150) ==ajn. - Original Message - From: Peter Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lute list lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, April 20, 2007 4:26 AM Subject: [LUTE] Spinacino My Minkoff facsimile of Spinacino says that the original unique copy held in Berlin before the second world war has disappeared, and that the facsimile was made from photographs. But I seem to remember reading somewhere that the original had been found again. Is this true? -- Peter Martin Belle Serre La Caulie 81100 Castres France tel: 0033 5 63 35 68 46 e: [EMAIL PROTECTED] web: www.silvius.co.uk http://absolute81.blogspot.com/ -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Peter Martin Belle Serre La Caulie 81100 Castres France tel: 0033 5 63 35 68 46 e: [EMAIL
[LUTE] Re: Spinacino
Dear Arthur, Nice to get so quick responce from you. I'm teaching in Krakow since 1993 and am there every week, since I live in Warsaw for quite a long time now. My personal sentiments, as a player, were always closer to Reusner, Le Sage, Bronikowski or Rust which I located at the Jagiellonian Libr. a long time ago already. Several other items, including many XVIth C. tablatures, are in one or the other way more famous and ''known'' anyway, so I left diging deeper in them to others (like Micha³ Gondko, for ex.). But I'd love to learn from you more about all of them, as it's probably my duty - to a certain extend - for being ''on spot''. I'll be in Krakow the next Tuesday and will check up things if you have time to list them. If that would take to long, I'll continue the next week or call Sylwia to help me. I'm glad you want to assist me (and us) in completing the list. Best regards, Jerzy __ On 2007-05-13, at 00:20, Arthur Ness wrote: Dear Jerzy, Nice to hear from you on the spot so to speak. How long have you been in Krakow? I am very busy at the moment, but at a later date I'll provide a complete listing of the lute tablatures in Krakow. My list has about 100 (one hundred) prints. I'll comment on specifics and perhaps for the time being snip a bit. Then perhaps some of you already know which of the entries (from that badly catalogued prints in 1970s) contain in the Sammelband/ joint binder the SPINACINO book at the back - probably still kept in secret... [AJNBoth books I and II are in Krakow catalogued under P680(a) and P680(b). The P call number is for Petrucci. The American guitarist Paul Wierbowski held them in his hand. They are also listed as being in Krakow in Stanley Boorman's recent Petrucci catalogue. [AJNI don't have time to make a list now. But my list checked by Paul on site (he looked at the volumes himself) includes: [AJNBakfark, Bassano. Besard. Drusina, FdaM (2x), Fuenllana, Fuhrmann, Gabrieli, M. Galilei, Gerle, Heckel (bound with your Wecker), Jobin, Kapsberger, Kargel, Le Sage, Mylius (?)**, Negri (Gratia Nuove) M. Newsidler, Vallet, and so forth (1 1/2 pages of 4 pages.). The Newsidler volumes are especially important because they are presentation copies from Newsidler to the Duke of Bavaria. **It's there (G 140). Bound with Galilei. __start BB/BJ printed LUTE music N 70 Narvaez de, Luis Los seys libros del Delphin de musica de cifras para taner vihuela. Valladolid, 1538, Diego H. de Cordova N 66: 1538/22 T.VII, p.143 W 510 Wyssenbach (ed.), Rudolf Tabulaturbuch auff die Lutten von mancherley lieplicher italianischer Dantzliedern Zürich, 1550, Rudolf Wyssenbach 1550\25 T.X, p. 310 [AJNW510 has an important manuscript appendix. H 695 2 Wecker, Hans Jakob Lautenbuch vonn mancherley schönen und lieblichen Stucken mit zweyen Lautten zusammen zu schlagen. Basel, 1552, Ludwig Lück 2 lutes: T T.X, p. 197 (unicum) G 440 Gerle, Hans Eyn Newes sehr künstlichs Lautenbuch darinnen etliche Preambel, unnd Welsche Tentz, mit vier stimmen, von den berumbsten Lautenisten Nürnberg, 1552, Hieronymus Formschneider G 1624: 1552\31 T.IV, p. 208 F 900 Fuenllana, Miguel de Libro de musica para vihuela, intitulado Orphenica lyra. En el qual se contienen muchas y diversas obras. Sevilla, 1554, Martin de Montesdoca F 2093; 1554\32: T.IV, p. 98 H 690 Heckel, Wolff Lautten Buoch von mancherley schönen und lieblichen stucken, mit zweyen Lauten zusamen zuschlagen und auch sonst das mehrer theyl allein für sich selbst Straßburg, 1556, Urban Wyss 2 lutes: C H 4934 T.V, p. 83 H 695 1 Heckel, Wolff Lautten Buch von mancherley schönen und lieblichen stucken mit zweyen Lauten zusamen zuschlagen und auch sonst das mehrer theyl allein für sich selbst Straßburg, 1562, Chr. Müller 2 lutes: T H 4935: 1562\24 T.V, p. 83 F 495 Francesco da Milano Intabolatura de Lauto di M. Francesco Milanese et M. Perino Fiorentino. Ricercate, Madrigali e Canzone franzese. Libro I. Roma, 1566, V. Dorico Lodovico frat. T.XI, 2.728 Unicum. Only a fragment is in France. H 40 Adriaensen (ed.), Emanuel Pratum musicum Longe Amoenissimum Selectissima diversorum idiomatum Carmina 4.5. 6. Vocum Opus novum. Antwerpen, 1584, Pierre Phalese, Rubro Leone 4-6 voci, lute 1584\12 T. p. 44 W 70 Waissel, Matthäus Lautenbuch Darinn von der Tabulatur und Application der Lauten gründlicher und voller Unterricht: Sampt ausserlesenen Deudtschen und Polnischen Tentzen Franckfurt\O, 1592, Andreas Eichornlute W 77 T.X, p. 156 N 138 Negri, Cesare Le gratie d'amore opera nuova, et vaghissima. Milano, 1602, P Pontio, G.B.Piccaglia N 358 T.VII, p.166 K 65 (2) Kapsberger, Johannes Hieronymus Libro primo di villanelle a 1. 2 et 3
[LUTE] Re: Spinacino
DearJerzy, The mix up in the cataloguing of the Berlin lute prints was back in the 70s and 80s. I thought by now everything would be in order, and the library's catalogue would have everything properly listed. But Howard Mayer Brown hired a studen tto look through the collection for chanson prints, or something like that. But if the cataloguing is still incomplete (I can't imagine that it is), the easiest way would be to consult the pre-war card cataogue in the Musik Abteilung of the Deutsche (formerly Prussian) Staatsbibliothek in Berlin. Can't you find Spinacino just by looking in the catalogue? Hmmm? I looked in the on-line catalogue and couldn't find any of the lute prints I know to be in the Jagiellonska Library. At the end of next week I'll post a short list of composer/publisher and call number of everything I know about. But not just now, since I'm in the midst of an important project. In the meantime you should be able to get Spinacino's two books by using the call number P680(a) and P680(b). Those prints had been in the Berlin library for a long time, since they came with the Poelchau collection in 1841. Poor Poelchau his stuff really got messed with. He was librarian at the Berlin Singakademie, replacing Roman's idol Zelter. And you know what happened to the Singakademie library. It ended up in Kiev (Is Kiev your hometown, Roman?). Again it was held in secret for a half century. It is now returned to Berlin, or due to be returned. Is Piotr Pozniak still active, or has he retired? I would think that he would have looked at everything long ago. I'll post a list later this week. Or early next week. Just be patient with me.g Best regards, Jerzy, Arthur. - Original Message - From: Jerzy Zak [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lute list lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, May 12, 2007 9:40 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spinacino Dear Arthur, Nice to get so quick responce from you. I'm teaching in Krakow since 1993 and am there every week, since I live in Warsaw for quite a long time now. My personal sentiments, as a player, were always closer to Reusner, Le Sage, Bronikowski or Rust which I located at the Jagiellonian Libr. a long time ago already. Several other items, including many XVIth C. tablatures, are in one or the other way more famous and ''known'' anyway, so I left diging deeper in them to others (like Micha³ Gondko, for ex.). But I'd love to learn from you more about all of them, as it's probably my duty - to a certain extend - for being ''on spot''. I'll be in Krakow the next Tuesday and will check up things if you have time to list them. If that would take to long, I'll continue the next week or call Sylwia to help me. I'm glad you want to assist me (and us) in completing the list. Best regards, Jerzy __ On 2007-05-13, at 00:20, Arthur Ness wrote: Dear Jerzy, Nice to hear from you on the spot so to speak. How long have you been in Krakow? I am very busy at the moment, but at a later date I'll provide a complete listing of the lute tablatures in Krakow. My list has about 100 (one hundred) prints. I'll comment on specifics and perhaps for the time being snip a bit. Then perhaps some of you already know which of the entries (from that badly catalogued prints in 1970s) contain in the Sammelband/ joint binder the SPINACINO book at the back - probably still kept in secret... [AJNBoth books I and II are in Krakow catalogued under P680(a) and P680(b). The P call number is for Petrucci. The American guitarist Paul Wierbowski held them in his hand. They are also listed as being in Krakow in Stanley Boorman's recent Petrucci catalogue. [AJNI don't have time to make a list now. But my list checked by Paul on site (he looked at the volumes himself) includes: [AJNBakfark, Bassano. Besard. Drusina, FdaM (2x), Fuenllana, Fuhrmann, Gabrieli, M. Galilei, Gerle, Heckel (bound with your Wecker), Jobin, Kapsberger, Kargel, Le Sage, Mylius (?)**, Negri (Gratia Nuove) M. Newsidler, Vallet, and so forth (1 1/2 pages of 4 pages.). The Newsidler volumes are especially important because they are presentation copies from Newsidler to the Duke of Bavaria. **It's there (G 140). Bound with Galilei. __start BB/BJ printed LUTE music N 70 Narvaez de, Luis Los seys libros del Delphin de musica de cifras para taner vihuela. Valladolid, 1538, Diego H. de Cordova N 66: 1538/22 T.VII, p.143 W 510 Wyssenbach (ed.), Rudolf Tabulaturbuch auff die Lutten von mancherley lieplicher italianischer Dantzliedern Zürich, 1550, Rudolf Wyssenbach 1550\25 T.X, p. 310 [AJNW510 has an important manuscript appendix. H 695 2 Wecker, Hans Jakob Lautenbuch vonn mancherley schönen und lieblichen Stucken mit zweyen Lautten zusammen zu schlagen. Basel, 1552, Ludwig Lück 2 lutes: T T.X, p. 197 (unicum) G 440 Gerle, Hans Eyn Newes
[LUTE] Re: Spinacino
Yes, the photostats made for Genèvieve Thibault, are now in the Bibliothèque nationale. The unique Berlin copy of Spinacino, long thought destroyed, was acknowledged by Polish authorities to be in Cracow only about 15 years ago. In Brown's bibliography* ALL of the prints marked D:Bds (L) [for Germany: Berlin, Deutsche Staatsbibliothek (Lost)] have survived at the Jagiellonska Library in Cracow (about 50 16th-century titles). When I was in Berlin, I was able to consult the pre-war card catalogue in then East Berlin, and made a listing of all the lute prints and manuscripts that had been in the former Prussian State Library, including the call-numbers. When finally only about 15 years ago, the Polish authorities admitted they had the Berlin materials, I sent the list to an American guitarist studying in Cracow. He confirmed that each and every title was extant (except for an Adriannsen print). At first there was confusion, because many of the volumes were Sammelbände (bound volumes containing several often unrelated prints). When the collection was catalogued, reputedly by Polish students, only the first item in each Sammelband was noted. So through an oversight, many prints remained uncatalogued and were thought to have been lost. Also all of the manuscripts of lute music have survived, and an inventory* by Dieter Kirsch was published a few years ago. So a third of the treasures of surely the most important collection of music ever assembled were for forty+ years thought to have been destroyed during World War II. (These included Mozart's autograph manuscript for _Magic Flute._) I hope Stuart Walsh took a look when he was in Cracow. There's even some guitar music there, too. *Howard Mayer Brown. Instrumental Music printed before 1600: A bibliography. (Cambridge: Harvard U. Press, 1965). This is a book that belongs on every lutenist's desk. It is out-of-print but an on-demand reprint can be acquired. Perhaps someone can post the information (David?). **Dieter Kirsch and Lenz Meirott, Berliner Lautentabulaturen in Krakau : beschreibender Katalog der handschriftlichen Tabulaturen für Laute und verwandte Instrumente in der Biblioteka Jagielloñska Kraków aus dem Besitz der ehemaligen Preussischen Staatsbibliothek Berlin. ( Mainz ; New York : Schott, c1992), xxxiv, 432 p. : ill., music ; 25 cm. Schriften der Musikhochschule Würzburg ; Bd. 3. NOTE: Catalog of intabulation incipits for lute, guitar and related plucked instruments from the middle of the 16th century (ms. 40154) until the end of the 18th century (ms. 40150) ==ajn. - Original Message - From: Peter Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lute list lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, April 20, 2007 4:26 AM Subject: [LUTE] Spinacino My Minkoff facsimile of Spinacino says that the original unique copy held in Berlin before the second world war has disappeared, and that the facsimile was made from photographs. But I seem to remember reading somewhere that the original had been found again. Is this true? -- Peter Martin Belle Serre La Caulie 81100 Castres France tel: 0033 5 63 35 68 46 e: [EMAIL PROTECTED] web: www.silvius.co.uk http://absolute81.blogspot.com/ -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Spinacino
Thank you Arthur. What an extraordinary story, and what a happy ending. Howard Mayer Brown's book certainly lives on my desk. A good quality reprint is available on demand from iuniverse.com for the very reasonable price of $32.95. 560 jam-packed pages. http://www.iuniverse.com/bookstore/book_detail.asp?isbn=1-58348-525-2 Peter On 20/04/07, Arthur Ness [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yes, the photostats made for Gen=E8vieve Thibault, are now in the Biblioth=E8que nationale. The unique Berlin copy of Spinacino, long thought destroyed, was acknowledged by Polish authorities to be in Cracow only about 15 years ago. In Brown's bibliography* ALL of the prints marked D:Bds (L) [for Germany: Berlin, Deutsche Staatsbibliothek (Lost)] have survived at the Jagiellonska Library in Cracow (about 50 16th-century titles). When I was in Berlin, I was able to consult the pre-war card catalogue in then East Berlin, and made a listing of all the lute prints and manuscripts that had been in the former Prussian State Library, including the call-numbers. When finally only about 15 years ago, the Polish authorities admitted they had the Berlin materials, I sent the list to an American guitarist studying in Cracow. He confirmed that each and every title was extant (except for an Adriannsen print). At first there was confusion, because many of the volumes were Sammelb=E4nde (bound volumes containing several often unrelated prints). When the collection was catalogued, reputedly by Polish students, only the first item in each Sammelband was noted. So through an oversight, many prints remained uncatalogued and were thought to have been lost. Also all of the manuscripts of lute music have survived, and an inventory* by Dieter Kirsch was published a few years ago. So a third of the treasures of surely the most important collection of music ever assembled were for forty+ years thought to have been destroyed during World War II. (These included Mozart's autograph manuscript for _Magic Flute._) I hope Stuart Walsh took a look when he was in Cracow. There's even some guitar music there, too. *Howard Mayer Brown. Instrumental Music printed before 1600: A bibliography. (Cambridge: Harvard U. Press, 1965). This is a book that belongs on every lutenist's desk. It is out-of-print but an on-demand reprint can be acquired. Perhaps someone can post the information (David?). **Dieter Kirsch and Lenz Meirott, Berliner Lautentabulaturen in Krakau : beschreibender Katalog der handschriftlichen Tabulaturen fur Laute und verwandte Instrumente in der Biblioteka Jagiello=F1ska Krakow aus dem Besitz der ehemaligen Preussischen Staatsbibliothek Berlin. ( Mainz ; New York : Schott, c1992), xxxiv, 432 p. : ill., music ; 25 cm. Schriften der Musikhochschule Wurzburg ; Bd. 3. NOTE: Catalog of intabulation incipits for lute, guitar and related plucked instruments from the middle of the 16th century (ms. 40154) until the end of the 18th century (ms. 40150) ==ajn. - Original Message - From: Peter Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lute list lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, April 20, 2007 4:26 AM Subject: [LUTE] Spinacino My Minkoff facsimile of Spinacino says that the original unique copy held in Berlin before the second world war has disappeared, and that the facsimile was made from photographs. But I seem to remember reading somewhere that the original had been found again. Is this true? -- Peter Martin Belle Serre La Caulie 81100 Castres France tel: 0033 5 63 35 68 46 e: [EMAIL PROTECTED] web: www.silvius.co.uk http://absolute81.blogspot.com/ -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Peter Martin Belle Serre La Caulie 81100 Castres France tel: 0033 5 63 35 68 46 e: [EMAIL PROTECTED] web: www.silvius.co.uk http://absolute81.blogspot.com/ --
[LUTE] Re: Spinacino
Please forgive our commercialism but we have a little news relevant to Spinacino. We thought lute listers might be interested that our new CD, La Rota Fortuna, in honor of the 500th anniversary of Spinacino's publication, is now available. Details can be found at the following link: [1]http://www.mignarda.com/cds Best wishes, Ron Andrico Donna Stewart [2]http://www.mignarda.com __ From: Peter Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lute list lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Spinacino Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 10:26:49 +0200 My Minkoff facsimile of Spinacino says that the original unique copy held in Berlin before the second world war has disappeared, and that the facsimile was made from photographs. But I seem to remember reading somewhere that the original had been found again. Is this true? -- Peter Martin Belle Serre La Caulie 81100 Castres France tel: 0033 5 63 35 68 46 e: [EMAIL PROTECTED] web: www.silvius.co.uk http://absolute81.blogspot.com/ -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html _ [3]MSN is giving away a trip to Vegas to see Elton John. Enter to win today. References 1. http://www.mignarda.com/cds 2. http://www.mignarda.com/ 3. http://g.msn.com/8HMBENUS/2734??PS=47575
