[LUTE] Re: historical lute stringings
interchangeable fingerboards for different temperaments- and there is an Iranian guitarist (forget her name) who has jusdiciously placed tastini on her guitar for Persian microtonal work. Lily Afshar? YES. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: historical lute stringings
And don't forget characters like Gorzanis in the 16th. And Wilson in the 17th. And Falkenhagen in the 18th century. I've just started reading a book titled How Equal Temperament Ruined Harmony (and Why You Should Care) by Ross Duffin (Norton 2007). ==AJN Boston, Mass. This week's free download from Classical Music Library: Lalo Symphonie espagnole Go to my web page: http://mysite.verizon.net/arthurjness/ For some free scores, go to: http://mysite.verizon.net/vzepq31c/arthurjnesslutescores/ - Original Message - From: Eugene C. Braig IV [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Daniel Winheld [EMAIL PROTECTED]; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, November 05, 2007 10:20 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: historical lute stringings At 06:03 PM 11/4/2007, Daniel Winheld wrote: Not all guitarists are harmonic bone heads. This guy has guitars with interchangeable fingerboards for different temperaments- and there is an Iranian guitarist (forget her name) who has jusdiciously placed tastini on her guitar for Persian microtonal work. ..And don't forget the enharmonic guitar experiments by characters like Panormo and Lacote in the 19th c. Eugene To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: historical lute stringings
And don't forget characters like Gorzanis in the 16th. And Wilson in the 17th. And Falkenhagen in the 18th century. I've just started reading a book titled How Equal Temperament Ruined Harmony (and Why You Should Care) by Ross Duffin (Norton 2007). ==AJN Boston, Mass. This week's free download from Classical Music Library: Lalo Symphonie espagnole Go to my web page: http://mysite.verizon.net/arthurjness/ For some free scores, go to: http://mysite.verizon.net/vzepq31c/arthurjnesslutescores/ - Original Message - From: Eugene C. Braig IV [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Daniel Winheld [EMAIL PROTECTED]; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, November 05, 2007 10:20 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: historical lute stringings At 06:03 PM 11/4/2007, Daniel Winheld wrote: Not all guitarists are harmonic bone heads. This guy has guitars with interchangeable fingerboards for different temperaments- and there is an Iranian guitarist (forget her name) who has jusdiciously placed tastini on her guitar for Persian microtonal work. ..And don't forget the enharmonic guitar experiments by characters like Panormo and Lacote in the 19th c. Eugene To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: historical lute stringings
At 05:50 PM 11/4/2007, vance wood wrote: You cannot argue with a Guitar player about fixed metal frets, especially if their only exposure to the Lute is at a distance. They have to have first hand experience with gut frets and the fineness of the sound before they start to grasp the significance of them. Don't even try discussing different temperament, that's like having that discussion with a piano player. Come now, I'm a guitar player who has no problem with gut frets on my gut-fretted thingies or with fixed metal on my wire-fretted thingies. I suppose modern guitarists could be equally correct in saying You cannot argue with a lute player about tied-gut frets and all manor of non-equal temperament schemes that do not permit modulation or the use of many accidentals on fretted strings. Play and enjoy. Feel free to listen if you happen to hear somebody else playing something you enjoy. Peace to all brethren and sistren in pluckiude, Eugene To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: historical lute stringings
At 06:03 PM 11/4/2007, Daniel Winheld wrote: Not all guitarists are harmonic bone heads. This guy has guitars with interchangeable fingerboards for different temperaments- and there is an Iranian guitarist (forget her name) who has jusdiciously placed tastini on her guitar for Persian microtonal work. ..And don't forget the enharmonic guitar experiments by characters like Panormo and Lacote in the 19th c. Eugene To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: historical lute stringings
Taco I think Mimmo Peruffo may not reply because he may not want to appear to be advertising his wares on this list. It is a difficult situation for string makers and lute makers whenever they communicate, it could be considered that indirectly they are trying to sell their wares. Also, there is a limit to what they can say without giving away their trade-secrets. One problem in researching historic strings, is that string makers have always kept their recipes secret. Thus, only indirect evidence can often be used to rediscover these processes. And yet, string makers would be by far the best persons to speak about their own strings. However, you will notice that very few do. I gave you an answer because, I did see and hear those strings, however, I am far from being a competent person in this field. I can but use my imagination to think what may be going on in the discovery of these old strings, and metaphors about wine-making are my weak attempts at imagining the sort of difficulties involved. My reply may, anyway, seem a little strange, because I say that the loaded strings seemed quite good, but may not be available. If I heard them why aren't they available? The problem I think is that when you research into old techniques, you may or may not rediscover them; but it is different rediscovering the technique, and using it efficiently to produce the strings in sufficient numbers and in a controlled way to be able to commercialize them. I suppose we can remake glass for the Hall of Mirrors at the Palace of Versailles using the original technique, but they only use old ones from that time, as the original ones used mercury fumes, which are quite lethal, (and also I suppose new ones would look too new, but that is not relevant to the question, here) I am not suggesting that it is exactly the same for a loaded string, but working conditions at the time of historic string making would take little notice of the time spent, or the wastage, or the danger of chemicals. It may have been that most strings were thrown away. Some techniques cannot even be considered today, such as loading with Mercury salts. I imagine that once you have found the original technique, you need to find a modern substitute method that allows you to speed up the production, and control it so that you don't lose most of it. The original loaded strings, on an ordinary hightwist base, were quite good according to Jakob Lindberg. He says about the Rauwolf, I had it all gut strung, with Dan Larson's gimped strings in the basses, except the last two, (...) where I had one of Mimmo Peruffo's early corde appesantite. He used them on his early Dowland recording, but later the quality was not so good. Perhaps the ones he had first, were the result of a long process of careful hand-picked experimental production, the later ones may have been, perhaps, an attempt at making them by a quicker controlled method. If so they may not have been so good. Lindberg says so in his article for the LSA journal. I am not entirely inventing this explanation. Actually, I thought of it, and then I found my thoughts were more or less confirmed by what I found in the FAQ at Aquila's site. I will quote from this : http://www.aquilacorde.com/faqi.htm 46) Why did you suspend the production of loaded (C type) gut strings? (...) The production of loaded gut has been suspended on several important grounds: 1) the manufacturing process was extremely elaborate and difficult to standardize 2) the waste was very high (up to 70%) 3) the selling price could never cover the expenses 4) even after passing our quality control the risk the strings would still develop serious problems (like early breakage or becoming false) and cause justified customers complaints remained high. Seeking new technical solutions for the loading of gut has never been given up, though; we still aim at developing a different procedure that will allow us to produce loaded strings in a less costly, less wasteful and completely reliable way. If the new Venice loaded strings are still the result of a slow experimental research process. MP may not want to begin selling them, until he has perfected the next stage, finding a way of producing them more quickly and with a controlled method. Thus, at the Greenwich early music festival, he could be showing the results of his research experimentation, like any body else reading an article on some aspect of their research into lutemaking or interpretation. Mimmo has possibly not yet perfected the production stage, and may be, he does not know whether he will be able to do so. (I have no idea about that, perhaps on the other hand he is completely ready to produce them). He may nevertheless consider he has gathered enough proof to show that loaded strings did exist and he is now able to show that they can be made, and also
[LUTE] Re: historical lute stringings
I think Mimmo Peruffo may not reply because he may not want to appear to be advertising his wares on this list. It is a difficult situation for string makers and lute makers whenever they communicate, it could be considered that indirectly they are trying to sell their wares. Couple of thoughts- I'm sure that Mimmo, our most advanced, dedicated commercial stringmaker, wouldn't merely be sharing his latest conclusions and historical/scientific research results just for the hell of it- something's got to be up; and he knows how badly some of us want the next inevitable step to fall (waiting patiently for the other shoe to drop?) in regard to the loaded gut bass strings. They were so close! -But as pointed out, too many problems and headaches involved. I still have a pair of perfectly matched, in tune, loaded guts for the only satisfactory unison pairing of this string type I've encountered for the 6th course of my 7 course Andreas Holst lute. At the 2005 LSA event in Cleveland Cathy Liddell was still wearing a very carefully maintained set of loaded gut bass fundamentals 6 - 11 on her Baroque lute. Come on, Mimmo! You've got our attention, big time- unload the loaded guts on us- please! Dan P.S.- How many of us have had success- long term, that is, playing cleanly and maintaining in tune the doubled first course, any string material or on any instrument? -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: historical lute stringings
For what it's worth... Perhaps the difference is that we lutenists daren't take our eyes off the tablature, and so we have to find our way about the neck of our instrument by touch, not sight. Having said that, I think I might just stick something close tothe 7th fret... Alan - Original Message - From: Daniel Winheld [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, November 04, 2007 6:15 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: historical lute stringings I think Mimmo Peruffo may not reply because he may not want to appear to be advertising his wares on this list. It is a difficult situation for string makers and lute makers whenever they communicate, it could be considered that indirectly they are trying to sell their wares. Couple of thoughts- I'm sure that Mimmo, our most advanced, dedicated commercial stringmaker, wouldn't merely be sharing his latest conclusions and historical/scientific research results just for the hell of it- something's got to be up; and he knows how badly some of us want the next inevitable step to fall (waiting patiently for the other shoe to drop?) in regard to the loaded gut bass strings. They were so close! -But as pointed out, too many problems and headaches involved. I still have a pair of perfectly matched, in tune, loaded guts for the only satisfactory unison pairing of this string type I've encountered for the 6th course of my 7 course Andreas Holst lute. At the 2005 LSA event in Cleveland Cathy Liddell was still wearing a very carefully maintained set of loaded gut bass fundamentals 6 - 11 on her Baroque lute. Come on, Mimmo! You've got our attention, big time- unload the loaded guts on us- please! Dan P.S.- How many of us have had success- long term, that is, playing cleanly and maintaining in tune the doubled first course, any string material or on any instrument? -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.486 / Virus Database: 269.15.17/1103 - Release Date: 01/11/2007 06:01 -- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter for private users. It has removed 1056 spam emails to date. Paying users do not have this message in their emails. Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len
[LUTE] Re: historical lute stringings
We luters have it pretty easy worrying only now and then about our h's and k's. Pity the polite citternist who must mind their p's and q's. Sean On Nov 4, 2007, at 11:42 AM, Alan Hoyle wrote: For what it's worth... Perhaps the difference is that we lutenists daren't take our eyes off the tablature, and so we have to find our way about the neck of our instrument by touch, not sight. Having said that, I think I might just stick something close tothe 7th fret... Alan - Original Message - From: Daniel Winheld [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, November 04, 2007 6:15 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: historical lute stringings I think Mimmo Peruffo may not reply because he may not want to appear to be advertising his wares on this list. It is a difficult situation for string makers and lute makers whenever they communicate, it could be considered that indirectly they are trying to sell their wares. Couple of thoughts- I'm sure that Mimmo, our most advanced, dedicated commercial stringmaker, wouldn't merely be sharing his latest conclusions and historical/scientific research results just for the hell of it- something's got to be up; and he knows how badly some of us want the next inevitable step to fall (waiting patiently for the other shoe to drop?) in regard to the loaded gut bass strings. They were so close! -But as pointed out, too many problems and headaches involved. I still have a pair of perfectly matched, in tune, loaded guts for the only satisfactory unison pairing of this string type I've encountered for the 6th course of my 7 course Andreas Holst lute. At the 2005 LSA event in Cleveland Cathy Liddell was still wearing a very carefully maintained set of loaded gut bass fundamentals 6 - 11 on her Baroque lute. Come on, Mimmo! You've got our attention, big time- unload the loaded guts on us- please! Dan P.S.- How many of us have had success- long term, that is, playing cleanly and maintaining in tune the doubled first course, any string material or on any instrument? -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.486 / Virus Database: 269.15.17/1103 - Release Date: 01/11/2007 06:01 -- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter for private users. It has removed 1056 spam emails to date. Paying users do not have this message in their emails. Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len
[LUTE] Re: historical lute stringings /Re: marker at 7th fret
Uh-oh boys 'n girls- we're mixing our threads here. I've never felt strongly about the marker marks except that they've always bothered me aesthetically- but on rare occasions helped me out when playing strictly from memory; which (classical) guitarists have always done far more than any of us lute critters. (How do you get the guitarist to shut up? -Give him sheet music) I still want answers about the new, improved loaded basses that are UNDOUBTEDLY coming our way any minute now... .. And isn't it interesting that by the mid 17th century, seventy some years after the Great String Improvement the French lutenists had dropped the 1st course down to f, singled out the 2nd, and re-established 8ves at the 6th. Of course Dowland could have been voicing a musically elite and minority opinion in regard to the unison 6th. Not sure what the norm was for 8ves in Italy- but still set up for mostly doubled firsts on liuti attorbiati, no? Dan For what it's worth... Perhaps the difference is that we lutenists daren't take our eyes off the tablature, and so we have to find our way about the neck of our instrument by touch, not sight. Having said that, I think I might just stick something close tothe 7th fret... Alan - Original Message - From: Daniel Winheld [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, November 04, 2007 6:15 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: historical lute stringings I think Mimmo Peruffo may not reply because he may not want to appear to be advertising his wares on this list. It is a difficult situation for string makers and lute makers whenever they communicate, it could be considered that indirectly they are trying to sell their wares. Couple of thoughts- I'm sure that Mimmo, our most advanced, dedicated commercial stringmaker, wouldn't merely be sharing his latest conclusions and historical/scientific research results just for the hell of it- something's got to be up; and he knows how badly some of us want the next inevitable step to fall (waiting patiently for the other shoe to drop?) in regard to the loaded gut bass strings. They were so close! -But as pointed out, too many problems and headaches involved. I still have a pair of perfectly matched, in tune, loaded guts for the only satisfactory unison pairing of this string type I've encountered for the 6th course of my 7 course Andreas Holst lute. At the 2005 LSA event in Cleveland Cathy Liddell was still wearing a very carefully maintained set of loaded gut bass fundamentals 6 - 11 on her Baroque lute. Come on, Mimmo! You've got our attention, big time- unload the loaded guts on us- please! Dan P.S.- How many of us have had success- long term, that is, playing cleanly and maintaining in tune the doubled first course, any string material or on any instrument? -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.486 / Virus Database: 269.15.17/1103 - Release Date: 01/11/2007 06:01 -- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter for private users. It has removed 1056 spam emails to date. Paying users do not have this message in their emails. Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len -- Rachel Winheld 820 Colusa Avenue Berkeley, CA 94707 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tel 510.526.0242 Cell 510.915.4276
[LUTE] Re: historical lute stringings
A tiny dot on the 3rd, 5th and 7th for me, only because as a geeetarist I like the reference it gives me, so I've carried it over to the lute. I'd also like the lists opinion on fixed metal frets, I had a rather heated discussion with a classical guitarist recently who was very critical of what he called the 'plastic frets' that we lutenists use. -Original Message- From: Alan Hoyle [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 04 November 2007 19:43 To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Daniel Winheld Subject: [LUTE] Re: historical lute stringings For what it's worth... Perhaps the difference is that we lutenists daren't take our eyes off the tablature, and so we have to find our way about the neck of our instrument by touch, not sight. Having said that, I think I might just stick something close tothe 7th fret... Alan - Original Message - From: Daniel Winheld [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, November 04, 2007 6:15 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: historical lute stringings I think Mimmo Peruffo may not reply because he may not want to appear to be advertising his wares on this list. It is a difficult situation for string makers and lute makers whenever they communicate, it could be considered that indirectly they are trying to sell their wares. Couple of thoughts- I'm sure that Mimmo, our most advanced, dedicated commercial stringmaker, wouldn't merely be sharing his latest conclusions and historical/scientific research results just for the hell of it- something's got to be up; and he knows how badly some of us want the next inevitable step to fall (waiting patiently for the other shoe to drop?) in regard to the loaded gut bass strings. They were so close! -But as pointed out, too many problems and headaches involved. I still have a pair of perfectly matched, in tune, loaded guts for the only satisfactory unison pairing of this string type I've encountered for the 6th course of my 7 course Andreas Holst lute. At the 2005 LSA event in Cleveland Cathy Liddell was still wearing a very carefully maintained set of loaded gut bass fundamentals 6 - 11 on her Baroque lute. Come on, Mimmo! You've got our attention, big time- unload the loaded guts on us- please! Dan P.S.- How many of us have had success- long term, that is, playing cleanly and maintaining in tune the doubled first course, any string material or on any instrument? -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.486 / Virus Database: 269.15.17/1103 - Release Date: 01/11/2007 06:01 -- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter for private users. It has removed 1056 spam emails to date. Paying users do not have this message in their emails. Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len
[LUTE] Re: historical lute stringings /Re: marker at 7th fret
I hope you may be right for the loaded strings. Perhaps they are on their way, and you read the signs better than I do. Undoubtedly, Mimmo will be demonstrating something this month at the Greenwich early music festival. I suppose you may see his lute strung with loaded strings, perhaps he has gone further and is ready to sell you a complete set. I rather hope so/ As to the marks on the 5th and 7th fret, I noticed that a French lute player who has over 30 lutes, has a little marketry circle set into the lute neck near the 5th and 7th frets. The various lutemakers who made these lutes, obviously accepted making this alteration to their lutes. I imagine that the more varied the lutes you play the more reason you might have to introdcuing this sort of aid. Anthony Le 4 nov. 07 à 21:25, Daniel Winheld a écrit : Uh-oh boys 'n girls- we're mixing our threads here. I've never felt strongly about the marker marks except that they've always bothered me aesthetically- but on rare occasions helped me out when playing strictly from memory; which (classical) guitarists have always done far more than any of us lute critters. (How do you get the guitarist to shut up? -Give him sheet music) I still want answers about the new, improved loaded basses that are UNDOUBTEDLY coming our way any minute now... .. And isn't it interesting that by the mid 17th century, seventy some years after the Great String Improvement the French lutenists had dropped the 1st course down to f, singled out the 2nd, and re-established 8ves at the 6th. Of course Dowland could have been voicing a musically elite and minority opinion in regard to the unison 6th. Not sure what the norm was for 8ves in Italy- but still set up for mostly doubled firsts on liuti attorbiati, no? Dan For what it's worth... Perhaps the difference is that we lutenists daren't take our eyes off the tablature, and so we have to find our way about the neck of our instrument by touch, not sight. Having said that, I think I might just stick something close tothe 7th fret... Alan - Original Message - From: Daniel Winheld [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, November 04, 2007 6:15 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: historical lute stringings I think Mimmo Peruffo may not reply because he may not want to appear to be advertising his wares on this list. It is a difficult situation for string makers and lute makers whenever they communicate, it could be considered that indirectly they are trying to sell their wares. Couple of thoughts- I'm sure that Mimmo, our most advanced, dedicated commercial stringmaker, wouldn't merely be sharing his latest conclusions and historical/scientific research results just for the hell of it- something's got to be up; and he knows how badly some of us want the next inevitable step to fall (waiting patiently for the other shoe to drop?) in regard to the loaded gut bass strings. They were so close! -But as pointed out, too many problems and headaches involved. I still have a pair of perfectly matched, in tune, loaded guts for the only satisfactory unison pairing of this string type I've encountered for the 6th course of my 7 course Andreas Holst lute. At the 2005 LSA event in Cleveland Cathy Liddell was still wearing a very carefully maintained set of loaded gut bass fundamentals 6 - 11 on her Baroque lute. Come on, Mimmo! You've got our attention, big time- unload the loaded guts on us- please! Dan P.S.- How many of us have had success- long term, that is, playing cleanly and maintaining in tune the doubled first course, any string material or on any instrument? -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.486 / Virus Database: 269.15.17/1103 - Release Date: 01/11/2007 06:01 -- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter for private users. It has removed 1056 spam emails to date. Paying users do not have this message in their emails. Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len -- Rachel Winheld 820 Colusa Avenue Berkeley, CA 94707 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tel 510.526.0242 Cell 510.915.4276
[LUTE] Re: historical lute stringings /Re: marker at 7th fret
Howdy, Dan! I do use markers, as I play many different sized instruments. I recall working with a lutenist about 8 years, ago, practicing duets. This particular lutenist plays many different kinds of lutes, and in one piece, he was not hitting the right note up on the 8th or 9th fret. I suggested a marker on the 7th, he initially resisted, but then decided to consent in trying it. After using a drop of white out on the 7th fret, he played the correct note every time. He was a convert at that time. Paul O'Dette also uses markers, and for good reason - it makes him a more accurate player. If one had only 1 instrument, then it would be less of a need to mark the 7th fret. However, with many different styles and length lutes, it really is helpful to use a marker, in my opinion. I am curious to see, hear, or play the newly loaded strings; however, I am satisfied with copper or solver gimped, as they are true accurate. Dan Larson stopped loading strings years ago, for the same reasons that Mimmo did. It was too time consuming expensive. Many strings would break, many were false. It was also too time consuming for him to be replacing false loaded strings. So, he stopped production, and went with a gut bass that sounds great the quality control is vastly improved - the gimped string. ed At 12:25 PM 11/4/2007 -0800, Daniel Winheld wrote: Uh-oh boys 'n girls- we're mixing our threads here. I've never felt strongly about the marker marks except that they've always bothered me aesthetically- but on rare occasions helped me out when playing strictly from memory; which (classical) guitarists have always done far more than any of us lute critters. (How do you get the guitarist to shut up? -Give him sheet music) I still want answers about the new, improved loaded basses that are UNDOUBTEDLY coming our way any minute now... .. And isn't it interesting that by the mid 17th century, seventy some years after the Great String Improvement the French lutenists had dropped the 1st course down to f, singled out the 2nd, and re-established 8ves at the 6th. Of course Dowland could have been voicing a musically elite and minority opinion in regard to the unison 6th. Not sure what the norm was for 8ves in Italy- but still set up for mostly doubled firsts on liuti attorbiati, no? Dan For what it's worth... Perhaps the difference is that we lutenists daren't take our eyes off the tablature, and so we have to find our way about the neck of our instrument by touch, not sight. Having said that, I think I might just stick something close tothe 7th fret... Alan - Original Message - From: Daniel Winheld [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, November 04, 2007 6:15 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: historical lute stringings I think Mimmo Peruffo may not reply because he may not want to appear to be advertising his wares on this list. It is a difficult situation for string makers and lute makers whenever they communicate, it could be considered that indirectly they are trying to sell their wares. Couple of thoughts- I'm sure that Mimmo, our most advanced, dedicated commercial stringmaker, wouldn't merely be sharing his latest conclusions and historical/scientific research results just for the hell of it- something's got to be up; and he knows how badly some of us want the next inevitable step to fall (waiting patiently for the other shoe to drop?) in regard to the loaded gut bass strings. They were so close! -But as pointed out, too many problems and headaches involved. I still have a pair of perfectly matched, in tune, loaded guts for the only satisfactory unison pairing of this string type I've encountered for the 6th course of my 7 course Andreas Holst lute. At the 2005 LSA event in Cleveland Cathy Liddell was still wearing a very carefully maintained set of loaded gut bass fundamentals 6 - 11 on her Baroque lute. Come on, Mimmo! You've got our attention, big time- unload the loaded guts on us- please! Dan P.S.- How many of us have had success- long term, that is, playing cleanly and maintaining in tune the doubled first course, any string material or on any instrument? -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.486 / Virus Database: 269.15.17/1103 - Release Date: 01/11/2007 06:01 -- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter for private users. It has removed 1056 spam emails to date. Paying users do not have this message in their emails. Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len -- Rachel Winheld 820 Colusa Avenue Berkeley, CA 94707 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tel 510.526.0242 Cell 510.915.4276 -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503
[LUTE] Re: historical lute stringings /Re: marker at 7th fret
Top of the afternoon to you too, Ed- Not against markers, just don't like the appearance. On my 72 cm. 8 course, (that's a LONG highway for these old fingers) Barber put a very discreet little white dot at the seventh, on the neck near the neck/fingerboard junction, worked very well anytime I was stupid enough to look down at unspeakable activities happening on the fingerboard. I thought metal frets were avoided because they would eat up gut strings? -Dan Howdy, Dan! I do use markers, as I play many different sized instruments. I recall working with a lutenist about 8 years, ago, practicing duets. This particular lutenist plays many different kinds of lutes, and in one piece, he was not hitting the right note up on the 8th or 9th fret. I suggested a marker on the 7th, he initially resisted, but then decided to consent in trying it. After using a drop of white out on the 7th fret, he played the correct note every time. He was a convert at that time. Paul O'Dette also uses markers, and for good reason - it makes him a more accurate player. If one had only 1 instrument, then it would be less of a need to mark the 7th fret. However, with many different styles and length lutes, it really is helpful to use a marker, in my opinion. I am curious to see, hear, or play the newly loaded strings; however, I am satisfied with copper or solver gimped, as they are true accurate. Dan Larson stopped loading strings years ago, for the same reasons that Mimmo did. It was too time consuming expensive. Many strings would break, many were false. It was also too time consuming for him to be replacing false loaded strings. So, he stopped production, and went with a gut bass that sounds great the quality control is vastly improved - the gimped string. ed -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: historical lute stringings
You cannot argue with a Guitar player about fixed metal frets, especially if their only exposure to the Lute is at a distance. They have to have first hand experience with gut frets and the fineness of the sound before they start to grasp the significance of them. Don't even try discussing different temperament, that's like having that discussion with a piano player. - Original Message - From: Narada [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'Alan Hoyle' [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: 'Lute List' lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, November 04, 2007 3:44 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: historical lute stringings A tiny dot on the 3rd, 5th and 7th for me, only because as a geeetarist I like the reference it gives me, so I've carried it over to the lute. I'd also like the lists opinion on fixed metal frets, I had a rather heated discussion with a classical guitarist recently who was very critical of what he called the 'plastic frets' that we lutenists use. -Original Message- From: Alan Hoyle [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 04 November 2007 19:43 To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Daniel Winheld Subject: [LUTE] Re: historical lute stringings For what it's worth... Perhaps the difference is that we lutenists daren't take our eyes off the tablature, and so we have to find our way about the neck of our instrument by touch, not sight. Having said that, I think I might just stick something close tothe 7th fret... Alan - Original Message - From: Daniel Winheld [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, November 04, 2007 6:15 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: historical lute stringings I think Mimmo Peruffo may not reply because he may not want to appear to be advertising his wares on this list. It is a difficult situation for string makers and lute makers whenever they communicate, it could be considered that indirectly they are trying to sell their wares. Couple of thoughts- I'm sure that Mimmo, our most advanced, dedicated commercial stringmaker, wouldn't merely be sharing his latest conclusions and historical/scientific research results just for the hell of it- something's got to be up; and he knows how badly some of us want the next inevitable step to fall (waiting patiently for the other shoe to drop?) in regard to the loaded gut bass strings. They were so close! -But as pointed out, too many problems and headaches involved. I still have a pair of perfectly matched, in tune, loaded guts for the only satisfactory unison pairing of this string type I've encountered for the 6th course of my 7 course Andreas Holst lute. At the 2005 LSA event in Cleveland Cathy Liddell was still wearing a very carefully maintained set of loaded gut bass fundamentals 6 - 11 on her Baroque lute. Come on, Mimmo! You've got our attention, big time- unload the loaded guts on us- please! Dan P.S.- How many of us have had success- long term, that is, playing cleanly and maintaining in tune the doubled first course, any string material or on any instrument? -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.486 / Virus Database: 269.15.17/1103 - Release Date: 01/11/2007 06:01 -- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter for private users. It has removed 1056 spam emails to date. Paying users do not have this message in their emails. Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.21/1109 - Release Date: 11/4/2007 11:05 AM
[LUTE] Re: historical lute stringings
I don't think the sound of carbon is that great even when treated with a bit of sanding, but I use them when I play under high intensity spotlights, which is I'm afraid where most of the concerts are these dayslights and A/C. There is nothing as good as gut, especially for the ornaments. dt David I am certainly not going to argue in favour of carbon that I have personally never used. However, I do undoubtedly prefer gut to any other strings that I have tried, such as Nylon or even Nylgut, although Nylgut does work alright as a substitute in most cases on Trebles. Mimmo Peruffo, in his article at http://www.aquilacorde.com/ lutes.htm, however, stated that carbon is generally bright. 1. PVF (‘carbon’) strings: much too bright in comparison with any type of gut string. I think that is true, where TREBLES are concerned, simply because the density of carbon is so high the strings are too thin, and also the unsanded strings are too smooth and have that bell note characteristic you mentioned. However when used for the MEANES, carbon might not be quite bright enough, compared to Venice, for example. According to Martin Shepherd, in difficult conditions, such as those you describe (or humid conditions, the oppositie scenario), on the 5th course, KF work as an acceptable replacement for Venice or Pistoy; but in that context they are in fact not bright enough to be used in unison. They need an octave string. I find they work well for a 5th course on a 60cm lute. I first came across one of these on one of Jacob's lutes, and thought it was a gut string - it looked and felt exactly like a perfect, low-twist gut string. Even at this diameter, it is quite a stiff string, with very little peg movement resulting in a big change in pitch, and it takes a while to settle, but once settled in it works really well. I'm using it with an octave, of course, on 6c lute, and I'm not convinced it would necessarily be successful on a unison course, but it makes a very handy alternative for a gut string when you want to be waterproof.Martin Shepherd http://tinyurl.com/2husza Note that MP also says, 3. Nylgut: thin strings sound very close to gut, but does not quite compare by increasing diameters. Therefore, pehaps at the typical thickness of the 5th course diapason, Nylgut is already in difficulty, and KF is a possible alternative, if not entirely happy, solution. The fact that you do need an octave string, according to Martin is not a problem, as historically up till 1600 there was clear evidence that octave stringing was used on 5c and even 4c. This agrees with what Mimmo Peruffo also says about octave and unison, in the above mentioned article. In bad conditions, Jacob Heringman, nevertheless, continues to use gut diapasons, below the 5th course; then on the 5th course he uses KF, and everywhere above that he uses nylgut. including 1c, where nylgut is a slight problem. However, some lutists have suggested to me that it is best to use the next guage up, where nylgut is concerned on the 1c, to take care of its tendancy to stretch. At first sight Jacob seem to break the rules of the BASE/MEANE/TREBLE cut-off point, that MP describes, The break between Basses and Meanes does occur between 6c and 5c, as MP suggest historically was the case (here gut to synthetics), but then there is a break in the middle of the MEANES, with KF on 5, and Nylgut on 4). However, as Dowland also breaks Meanes into Small and Great Meanes, this may not be a problem for a smooth passage from BASSES to MEANES. Although, a French luthist who uses a similar set-up, tells me that he does use KF on 5c and 4c., and then above on 3c to 1c, he used to use nylgut, but is now experimenting with TN on 1c. It is rather a pity that while the thrust of MP's article is gut stringing, at the moment we are discussing synthetic replacement strings, as you definitely perfer gut, and I rarely use replacement strings at all. I notice that MP speaks a great deal about equal to the touch tension stringing, and I wonder how many luthists on our list use this method. Also he mentions the question of the octaves on the lower courses having been historically about half the tension of the basses themselves. 6. Octave strings: the modern tendency is to apply a noticeably lower tension than on their respective fundamental strings (Virdung, 1511 wrote that the octave's gauge must be half than the paired bass string) I wonder whether most of you are using this historical string pattern, and also I am wondering about the low tension string solution that Satoh uses. Does this correspond well with the explanations in MP's article? Regards Anthony Le 3 nov. 07 à 08:12, David Tayler a écrit : To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: historical lute stringings
At 01:42 PM 11/3/2007 +0100, Anthony Hind wrote: Also he mentions the question of the octaves on the lower courses having been historically about half the tension of the basses themselves. 6. Octave strings: the modern tendency is to apply a noticeably lower tension than on their respective fundamental strings (Virdung, 1511 wrote that the octave's gauge must be half than the paired bass string) Interesting. I was unaware of Virdung's quote, but I am also a gut user, and I have found this to be true. For me, the best results are where the octave is 1/2 the diameter of the fundamental. For instance, if I have a 1.0 fundamental, the octave usually is around .50. It I use 1.6 fundamental, the octave ends up .80. It is interesting with these equalities, that the tension in Kg or newtons comes out to be the same, which is the fundamental it's octave end up being the same tension. To me, it feels and sound the best when strung in that manner. ed Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: historical lute stringings
Le 3 nov. 07 à 14:08, Edward Martin a écrit : At 01:42 PM 11/3/2007 +0100, Anthony Hind wrote: Also he mentions the question of the octaves on the lower courses having been historically about half the tension of the basses themselves. 6. Octave strings: the modern tendency is to apply a noticeably lower tension than on their respective fundamental strings (Virdung, 1511 wrote that the octave's gauge must be half than the paired bass string) Interesting. I was unaware of Virdung's quote, but I am also a gut user, and I have found this to be true. For me, the best results are where the octave is 1/2 the diameter of the fundamental. For instance, if I have a 1.0 fundamental, the octave usually is around .50. It I use 1.6 fundamental, the octave ends up .80. It is interesting with these equalities, that the tension in Kg or newtons comes out to be the same, which is the fundamental it's octave end up being the same tension. To me, it feels and sound the best when strung in that manner. To what extent would it be possible to raise the tension of the octave to lower the tension of the diapason, so as to obtain a thinner Pistoy instead of a Gimped or a loaded string. Could one avoid using a Gimped or loaded string by this method? I assume not, but I am thinking of Satoh, who I thought used relatively thin Pistoys instead of gimped strings. Anthony ed Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: historical lute stringings
Why would you want a thinner Pistoy? If you want that, it would be best, in my opinion, to also lower the octave tension play overall with light tension. In my experience, to merely put on a smaller diameter Pistoy, or other plain gut, would not sound any brighter. ed At 02:37 PM 11/3/2007 +0100, Anthony Hind wrote: To what extent would it be possible to raise the tension of the octave to lower the tension of the diapason, so as to obtain a thinner Pistoy instead of a Gimped or a loaded string. Could one avoid using a Gimped or loaded string by this method? I assume not, but I am thinking of Satoh, who I thought used relatively thin Pistoys instead of gimped strings. Anthony Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: historical lute stringings
Actually, I also wonder whether the arguments for low tension stringing (Satoh) are not similar to those in favour of loaded strings (MP). Both argue in relation to small historic lute holes. The main difference is that MP argues also from the colour of the strings in paintings. Another argument could be from iconography showing the RH position of lute players, who in the Baroque period, play nearer the bridge. However, I don't think that allows you to discriminate between the two hypotheses. I believe that with low tension strings, or with loaded strings, the player has to play nearer the bridge, so this position in imagery does not, I think differentiate the two hypotheses. Regards Anthony Le 3 nov. 07 à 15:03, Edward Martin a écrit : Why would you want a thinner Pistoy? If you want that, it would be best, in my opinion, to also lower the octave tension play overall with light tension. In my experience, to merely put on a smaller diameter Pistoy, or other plain gut, would not sound any brighter. ed At 02:37 PM 11/3/2007 +0100, Anthony Hind wrote: To what extent would it be possible to raise the tension of the octave to lower the tension of the diapason, so as to obtain a thinner Pistoy instead of a Gimped or a loaded string. Could one avoid using a Gimped or loaded string by this method? I assume not, but I am thinking of Satoh, who I thought used relatively thin Pistoys instead of gimped strings. Anthony Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: historical lute stringings
Dear all, just a new work on the lute historical stringings: http://www.aquilacorde.com/lutes.htm Maybe it help to open some new excange of ideas... Ciao Mimmo Interesting article and I'm very much interested in the new production of the loaded gut strings even after yesterdays experience with a small concert with a soprano in amsterdam: after a walk through drizzling rain, tuning in a relative warm room which was filled later with people wearing wet clothes and temperature rising to a hot and super humid level. I think that not many people understood my frustration when I answered a question from a listener why I had to tune after every song. When are these loaded gut string available? Anybody already experience with these strings from Aquila. (especially: How do they stay?) Taco To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: historical lute stringings
Taco It would be better, if Mimmo Peruffo would answer this, and perhaps he will. However, I heard them and saw them on Mimmo Peruffo's bass lute, through Skype, and as far as I could hear and see in such a context they did seem good. I have an M-Audio Transit plus JBL on Tour speakers connected to my computer, which is not hifi by any means, but with a decent MP3 Stream such as the examples on Aquila's site, or Dan Larson's recordings of his lutes, it is quite reasonable. The previous type of loaded strings were easily damaged, being on a treble type string base. Now they are loaded Venice, which are a sort of twine. In particular they can be screwed up into a little ball and still come out looking like an unbroken string, which was not the case with the original ones. Mimmo demonstated that to me infront of the computer. He also did that trick of having the string vibrate between both hands, so that you can see that the vibration is even and regular. I understand that as they are almost tanned, they are more immune from the effect of humidity than a normal string. I think MP will be introducing them to the lute world at the Greenwich early music festival this month, November 2007 However, that does not mean they are about to be commercialized. As I understand it, the method for producing them is highly complex and rather long (and there will have been many hours/days/years? research). It may then be, that only a small number in the production will be up to standard. Thus how do you commercialize such a product? It is a little like those wines made with a few of the grapes in each bunch, hand chosen at the end of November when the grapes have almost dried out, and then laid down in casks for 10 years. I tasted such a wine recently, at £90 a bottle. I did not actually buy it, but was allowed to taste it as a favour by the wine producer, because he knew I would appreciate it. It was an extraordinarily complex taste, but if I did not buy the wine (although I was sorely tempted) who is going to buy a string at £90 a go, and yet, when you think about it, that bottle of wine was only 375 ml, and would not have lasted an evening. A lute bass lute string will last several years. I am not saying that would be the price of such a string, but I can easily imagine that the production might take the same pains taking work and time as that wine. Regards Anthony Le 3 nov. 07 à 18:53, Taco Walstra a écrit : Dear all, just a new work on the lute historical stringings: http://www.aquilacorde.com/lutes.htm Maybe it help to open some new excange of ideas... Ciao Mimmo Interesting article and I'm very much interested in the new production of the loaded gut strings even after yesterdays experience with a small concert with a soprano in amsterdam: after a walk through drizzling rain, tuning in a relative warm room which was filled later with people wearing wet clothes and temperature rising to a hot and super humid level. I think that not many people understood my frustration when I answered a question from a listener why I had to tune after every song. When are these loaded gut string available? Anybody already experience with these strings from Aquila. (especially: How do they stay?) Taco To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: historical lute stringings
Dear All After reading Mimmo Peruffo's interesting article, I find that it explains an improvement, I obtained by changing my stringing, in an experiment I described at http://tinyurl.com/2husza. I would like to discuss various points raised by MP in the light of my experiment, but I do realize that I have much less experience in using different types of gut stringing than many other people on this list, and also I have no experience at all in stringing varied types of instruments. It is not clear that all instruments respond identically to each way of stringing. It is even possible that some lutes that are naturally slightly dull, could respond well to PVF carbon strings, which MP says are much too bright in comparison with any type of gut string; and some PVF (KF) might be slightly less bright than others, especially when treated by David Tayler's sand-papering technique. Other lutes that are particularly bright, might not respond so well to Venice gut, and prefer Pistoys. Furthermore, room acoustics may play a role, and general problems of the context in which one might be called on to play, such as D V Ooijen's fishing trip, sea-port, lute expedition. Therefore, please take this into account, and take what I say here almost as a tentative question. CUT-OFF POINTS: I notice that among the questions raised by Mimmo Peruffo, there is the necessity of using three different types of strings (Trebles, Meanes, and Basses), and that finding the right cut-off point between string types, is essential for having a smooth passage from one type to another (homogenous overall sound). That was exactly what I had found in my experiment with my particular lute. MEANES: He suggests the following specific 'historically based break-off points for these string types: - Treble strings (Dowland’s and Mace’s Trebles; i.e. Romans, Minikins etc), i.e. the first three courses of both Renaissance and Baroque lutes. - Mid register (4th and 5th courses, Dowland’s Meanes, which he divides in Small and Great Meanes; i.e. Gansars). - Low register (from the 6th course down, the Basses; Lyons, Pistoys, Catlins). In the experiment mentioned above, I was looking for a remedy for what had seemed to me to be exactly a situation of this type, where the break between string types had seemed wrong, and the passage therefore across these strings was not smooth. The break I had had between the Trebles and Meanes came between the 5th and the 4th (rather than the 4th and 3rd). I had Trebles from the 4th up (and even the 5th were Larson Lyons which are stiffish). I felt intuitively that the 5th and 4th should be of the same type, however, neither Lyons nor Pistoy exist down to 0,70. I tried using treble types down to the 5th, but it did not sound right, although the transition was smoother. Eventually I discovered that Venice Aquila Meane diapasons do go down to 0,70, and can therefore be used on the 4th. There is no doubt that switching over to Venice on the 5th and 4th made the passage across the lute smoother. While their suppleness improved the higher frequency response at the harmonics. I do think these strings are ideal for that use (Meanes), at least on my 60 cm 440 Hz diapason Martin Haycock Gerle Lute. BASSES: I later changed the the 6th Pistoy, to Venice, and while that gave an overall brighter sound, it was slightly less obvious that it was an improvement, it was rather an alternative sound, but it did not particularly effect the smooth passage across the lute strings. Previously, for the Basses, I had a gimped Pistoy string + octave on the 7th and a simple Pistoy + octave on the 6th. This was probably closer to the ideal quoted from MP above, since both gimped and Pistoys are in fact Pistoys, and thus among the basses quoted by MP above. Pistoy Basses are tresses (with three elements), rather than twines (two elements). Venice Meanes are twines. One would expect Pistoys to be slightly more bass orientated than the Venice, and indeed that seems true, and this should be a good quality for the set of bass strings. In other words, Venice could be ideal for the Meanes, and Pistoys for the Basses. Another solution for basses could be to adopt loaded Venice strings on 7 and 6. The loading would tend to damp the higher frequencies, and allow a smaller diameter. This might be an interesting and historical solution. MP gives very good arguments in favour of such a solution, but for the moment no such string is being marketed, and Gimped (which is a different way of loading a string) remains probably the best compromise, better than wound strings. Note that Charles Besnaiou CNRS telephone twist nylon or nylgut, might be good solutions for those who choose synthetics but don't want wirewounds. Carlos Gonzales, lutemaker, also mentioned carbon- wound-carbons. I have no idea what these
[LUTE] Re: historical lute stringings
I don't think the sound of carbon is that great even when treated with a bit opf sanding, but I use them when I play under high intensity spotlights, which is I'm afraid where most of the concerts are these dayslights and A/C. There is nothing as good as gut, especially for the ornaments. dt To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
