[LUTE] Re: Memorization
Dear Doc You will no doubt know the article in Lute News No 80 12/2006 p.6-8, by Matthew Wadsworth, on exactly this subject. I really believed I was totally incapable of memorizing, but after reading this issue I felt I had to give it a go, and I was quite surprised to find I could just about learn a piece. What surprised me more was that when I closed my eyes to stop seeing the page, I found my fingers seemed to know better exactly where to go. Of course that is a metaphor, but I think that having closed off the sigh mechanisms the touch mechanisms probably became more active. Now, I can't say that I kept this process up, as all other players I spoke to, told me that there was nothing really to gain by this process. Nevertheless, I do wonder if you don't come to grips better with a piece if you go through this process. Unfortunately, at the time I began my schooling, learning by rote was no longer fashionable, and I never learnt anything this way. I am sure it is something that can be developed. I had two aunts who had left school at the age of sixteen who knew long passages of Shakespeare that they could quote, and use for Cross-words, but my French brother-in law, who learnt earlier by a very out-of-date French system, and who became an agricultural engineer, can quote long passages in Latin, Cicero, the Gallic wars, etc; and he told me recently he continues learning anything he can by rote, just to keep the possibility open. I am sure it is something that can be developed, even if a few a lore gifted than others. It is fashionable at present to speak of the lizard brain component to the human brain, I rather feel this finger feeling learning could be our shell-fish brain. They are experts at following a single track and finding their way back excatly to the place they began. Well that is not exactly what you need to do, but you probably know what I mean. I have just remembered that Bill Kilpatrick in answer to a question about Vertical Dyslexia, says he has to learn everything by rote, as a form of dyslexia prevents him from reading music in the normal way. Perhaps Bill might have some tips for you. Regards Anthony Le 4 avr. 08 à 16:20, Stewart McCoy a écrit : Dear Doc, Part of the problem may be tablature. It is such an ideal system for notating music for fretted instruments, that one only has to read it. You're a good reader, so there is no need to memorise anything. Staff notation for modern classical guitar, on the other hand, can be difficult to read, especially when high positions are involved, so by the time you have worked out what to play, you have virtually memorised it anyway. If you really had to memorise a piece, for example, because you were going to perform it on stage in a play, you'd find a way to memorise it. Best wishes, Stewart McCoy. -Original Message- From: Doc Rossi [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 04 April 2008 12:06 To: cittern list Subject: [CITTERN] memorization I was wondering whether anyone has any strategies for memorizing pieces. In the last few years I've had no luck at all memorizing music and really can't play without the tab in front of me any more. I think part of it might be age (although I'm not that old) and part of it is that I'm playing more complex arrangements, but it never used to be so difficult for me to remember music. Some years ago I memorized both parts of the JC Bach sonata for guitar and violin without actually making a conscious effort to do so - it just happened. I'd like to solve this and would appreciate hearing what any of you do to memorize music. Thanks, Doc To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Memorization
On Apr 4, 2008, at 4:24 PM, Stewart McCoy wrote: If you really had to memorise a piece, for example, because you were going to perform it on stage in a play, you'd find a way to memorise it. Boy, if that were only true! It's exactly the pieces that I perform that I'm concerned about. I did think about tablature, although I still do a fair amount of arranging - that is, working out the fingering - as most of what I play is in notation which I then tab out. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Memorization
On Fri, May 5, 2006, Robert Clair <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said: > Where I come from, "sight-reading" means playing at first sight, not > just any playing from a piece of music: A new, previously unseen > piece of music of music is placed in front of you and you play it, as > best you can. ayup. However, some players work like this with any sheet of music placed in front of them, deliberately avoiding memorization. I dont do that, I play mostly from memory, but others do things differently. It has been said to me that playing by sight allows a larger repetoire, which I readily acede, it takes a fair amount of time to commit anything to memory, even if only partialy. It is also true that one who plays from the written note is less likely to make mistakes with look-alike passages and inexact imitation. >> HAs it ever occurred to you that all orchestral (and most small- >> ensemble) >> music is sightread, always? When did you last see Pavaroti holding sheet music on stage? > the actual performance - especially in any > exposed parts - will depend heavily on the artistry of the player. yet, there are Principal players, and there are the others. I would hope NOT to have any of the several first violins be distinquished from the others, they are supposed to have a blended sound. The conductor spends a lot of time and energy making his artistic points and concerns known to the orchestra, they are expected to be busy with pencils while he talks in rehearsal, and then to actually play what he asks for. It is in chamber music that one has one-to-a-part players, and here one expects to have more artistic leeway, but still, there is a need for ensemble; it isnt a total free-for-all. > There will > be extended passages where the conductor has both hands heavily > occupied on the keyboard, yet there is no sudden decline into a flop > in those passages. ah, consider the choir director who also has a three (or four) manual Organ (with pedals too) to busy his hands, feet, assistant/pageturner and whatnot. Rhythm is conveyed by body motion, eye contact, ear wriggling, mouthed words are all used to give cues and otherwise lead the choir and any accompanying instruments. -- Dana Emery To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Memorization
There seem to be a lot of straw men and unsupportable declarations going on here. Where I come from, "sight-reading" means playing at first sight, not just any playing from a piece of music: A new, previously unseen piece of music of music is placed in front of you and you play it, as best you can. There is a vast territory between sight-reading and memorization. It is quite possible to have studied a piece of music , thought about it, made interpretive decisions about it and played it many. many times without having it memorized. Such a performance will be a far cry from sight-reading even if it is not from memory. > HAs it ever occurred to you that all orchestral (and most small- > ensemble) > music is sightread, always? By this definition orchestral and small-ensemble music is hardly sight reading, even if played from music. For a normal subscription concert a major orchestra will have had probably three rehearsals with the conductor as well as private wood-shedding if the piece is new to the musicians. (Most standard repertoire pieces will probably already be familiar, possibly to the point of boredom.) > In an orchestra the players are acting as a sequencer and their job > is to > reproduce the written music accurately. The musical value comes > from the > conductor - who usually has the score in front of him, but, if he's > any > good, he doesn't actually need it. That's why experiments with > conductorless orchestras are generally flops. This is silly and a bit of an affront to orchestral musicians. A conductor may set the tempi, the general interpretation and make some specific requests, but the actual performance - especially in any exposed parts - will depend heavily on the artistry of the player. Try listening to the same piece, same conductor but different orchestras, preferably one top tier ensemble and one second tier. If you can't hear the difference (and it is not because the players in the lesser orchestra aren't playing the correct pitches at the correct time and duration) you are wasting your money going to live concerts. A mechanical playing of a MIDI file with a good synthesizer should do it for you. The Orpheus Chamber orchestra plays without a conductor. You may not care for the results, but it is hardly a flop. Note that "no conductor" doesn't mean "no leader". For the purposes of starting and stopping and such, somebody has to drive. If I remember from an article I once read, Orpheus rotates "leader" by the piece. Also note any number of performances of piano concertos with major orchestra and famous conductor/pianist "conducting from the piano." There will be extended passages where the conductor has both hands heavily occupied on the keyboard, yet there is no sudden decline into a flop in those passages. .Bob -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Memorization
Rudolf Kehrer had a similar experience in GULAG, he survived by having penciled keys on a wooden plank. RT > On memorization: The Chinese pianist Liu Chi Kung was imprisoned by the > Maoists for 7 years after the "cultural revolution." During his > imprisonment > he had no access to a piano but, since the guards held him is some regard, > was granted a cell with a window. After his release he, like so many of > China's intelligentsia, departed for Taiwan and after only about a month > played a concert with the symphony there. When asked how he accomplished > such a feat, considering the lack of practice for 7 years, he replied that > he had actually practiced daily. During meditation periods he would pull > his > chair up to the windowsill and close his eyes, imagining the keyboard > before > him. He would then "play" his entire memorized repertoire on the > windowsill, > hearing the notes in the ear of his mind. That constant visualization and > reinforcement of the intellectual and muscle memory allowed him to get > into > performance shape in record time. > > I've always been a good memorizer and a poor sight reader (one probably > affecting the other) and in high school band always had all the parts > memorized in short order. In Texas, if you're in the band, you play at > football games (a pervert in Texas is defined as someone who likes sex > better than football) and one must march with the band at the halftime > show. > I remember many poor fellows marching around reading the little sheet > music > on a lyre before their eyes, sometimes smashing into each other in the > process. > > Being a poor sight reader, I have most things memorized by the time I get > the fingering and positions worked out and the piece up to speed. In > recital, I usually have the music before me as a place to stare so as not > to > be so aware of the audience. I suffer from almost debilitating stage > fright > and it seems to help, a placebo security blanket. > > Best, > Rob Dorsey, luthier > Florence, KY USA > > -Original Message- > From: Doctor Oakroot [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Friday, May 05, 2006 9:39 AM > To: Roman Turovsky > Cc: Doctor Oakroot; Lute Net > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lute straps > > In an orchestra the players are acting as a sequencer and their job is to > reproduce the written music accurately. The musical value comes from the > conductor - who usually has the score in front of him, but, if he's any > good, he doesn't actually need it. That's why experiments with > conductorless > orchestras are generally flops. > > And, no, blues isn't memorized - it's created during the performance... a > whole different art. > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > ___ $0 Web Hosting with up to 200MB web space, 1000 MB Transfer 10 Personalized POP and Web E-mail Accounts, and much more. Signup at www.doteasy.com
[LUTE] Re: Memorization
On memorization: The Chinese pianist Liu Chi Kung was imprisoned by the Maoists for 7 years after the "cultural revolution." During his imprisonment he had no access to a piano but, since the guards held him is some regard, was granted a cell with a window. After his release he, like so many of China's intelligentsia, departed for Taiwan and after only about a month played a concert with the symphony there. When asked how he accomplished such a feat, considering the lack of practice for 7 years, he replied that he had actually practiced daily. During meditation periods he would pull his chair up to the windowsill and close his eyes, imagining the keyboard before him. He would then "play" his entire memorized repertoire on the windowsill, hearing the notes in the ear of his mind. That constant visualization and reinforcement of the intellectual and muscle memory allowed him to get into performance shape in record time. I've always been a good memorizer and a poor sight reader (one probably affecting the other) and in high school band always had all the parts memorized in short order. In Texas, if you're in the band, you play at football games (a pervert in Texas is defined as someone who likes sex better than football) and one must march with the band at the halftime show. I remember many poor fellows marching around reading the little sheet music on a lyre before their eyes, sometimes smashing into each other in the process. Being a poor sight reader, I have most things memorized by the time I get the fingering and positions worked out and the piece up to speed. In recital, I usually have the music before me as a place to stare so as not to be so aware of the audience. I suffer from almost debilitating stage fright and it seems to help, a placebo security blanket. Best, Rob Dorsey, luthier Florence, KY USA -Original Message- From: Doctor Oakroot [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, May 05, 2006 9:39 AM To: Roman Turovsky Cc: Doctor Oakroot; Lute Net Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lute straps In an orchestra the players are acting as a sequencer and their job is to reproduce the written music accurately. The musical value comes from the conductor - who usually has the score in front of him, but, if he's any good, he doesn't actually need it. That's why experiments with conductorless orchestras are generally flops. And, no, blues isn't memorized - it's created during the performance... a whole different art. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: memorization
>Which Chaconne? G minor, or A major? >ed Ed, I was thinking THE CHACONNE, the one in D minor, by Bach. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Edward Martin To: Michael Thames ; Roman Turovsky ; lute net ; Denys Stephens Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2005 8:04 PM Subject: Re: memorization Which Chaconne? G minor, or A major? ed At 06:41 PM 3/30/2005 -0700, Michael Thames wrote: > If your giving a concert of Weiss and decide half way thought to play > the Chaconne and happen to have the tab handy, this will hardly be a > professional concert, will it? >Not necessarily. Has been seen before, at the highest of >levels. >RT Not if one has never read through the chaconne before. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: "Roman Turovsky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Michael Thames" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "lute net" ; "Denys Stephens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 5:32 PM Subject: Re: memorization > > If your giving a concert of Weiss and decide half way thought to play > > the Chaconne and happen to have the tab handy, this will hardly be a > > professional concert, will it? > Not necessarily. Has been seen before, at the highest of levels. > RT > __ > Roman M. Turovsky > http://polyhymnion.org/swv > > > To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
Re: memorization
> Which Chaconne? G minor, or A major? > ed This wasn't about any particular Chaconne per se, but about not respecting the announced program. > > > > At 06:41 PM 3/30/2005 -0700, Michael Thames wrote: >>> If your giving a concert of Weiss and decide half way thought to play >>> the Chaconne and happen to have the tab handy, this will hardly be a >>> professional concert, will it? >>> Not necessarily. Has been seen before, at the highest of >levels. >>> RT >> >> Not if one has never read through the chaconne before. >> Michael Thames >> www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com >> - Original Message - >> From: "Roman Turovsky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> To: "Michael Thames" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "lute net" >> ; "Denys Stephens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 5:32 PM >> Subject: Re: memorization >> >> >>>> If your giving a concert of Weiss and decide half way thought to play >>>> the Chaconne and happen to have the tab handy, this will hardly be a >>>> professional concert, will it? >>> Not necessarily. Has been seen before, at the highest of levels. >>> RT >>> __ >>> Roman M. Turovsky >>> http://polyhymnion.org/swv >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> To get on or off this list see list information at >> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > -- >
Re: memorization
Which Chaconne? G minor, or A major? ed At 06:41 PM 3/30/2005 -0700, Michael Thames wrote: > > If your giving a concert of Weiss and decide half way thought to play > > the Chaconne and happen to have the tab handy, this will hardly be a > > professional concert, will it? > >Not necessarily. Has been seen before, at the highest of >levels. > >RT > > Not if one has never read through the chaconne before. >Michael Thames >www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com >- Original Message - >From: "Roman Turovsky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >To: "Michael Thames" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "lute net" >; "Denys Stephens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 5:32 PM >Subject: Re: memorization > > > > > If your giving a concert of Weiss and decide half way thought to play > > > the Chaconne and happen to have the tab handy, this will hardly be a > > > professional concert, will it? > > Not necessarily. Has been seen before, at the highest of levels. > > RT > > __ > > Roman M. Turovsky > > http://polyhymnion.org/swv > > > > > > > > > > >To get on or off this list see list information at >http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
Re: memorization
At 5:14 PM -0400 4/6/05, James A Stimson wrote: > > Just for the record, Ronn McFarlane has performed entire concerts from >>memory. This has sometimes included some of his own compositions -- which >>of course is an entirely different thing regarding memorization > >How so? >Dear Ed: > Well, that's a good question. I just imagine it would be easier to >memorize a piece after you'd taken the time to work out every last detail >in the compositional process. But perhaps a composer/performer might >approach it, once composed, just like any other composition. > I have heard guitarist/composers say that once they'd gotten a piece fully >worked out, they didn't need to write it down because it was already >imprinted on their memory. >Cheers,' >Jim I agree 100%. The intimate work of composition is a working out, even if it isn't a concious analysis, and so often a piece is memorized just from going through the compositional process. I think this is especially true when composed on the instrument of composition in an idiomatic manner. This makes a good argument for Weiss, Dowland & Milano performing from memory, but who knows? In my own experience, I forget my own music as easily as any other music. In other words, whatever state of memorization a piece may be in, and directly after the compositional process is completed it may be in a very memorized state, if I don't play it once in a while it will disintegrate and I'll have to practice it like any other piece I want to memorize. cheers, -- Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: memorization/Re: Gallot speaks...
-Original Message-
From: Jon Murphy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Apr 2, 2005 3:59 AM
To: "Dr. Marion Ceruti" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
Ed Durbrow <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
lute list
Subject: Re: memorization/Re: Gallot speaks...
Wow, motion and motor - and time and space - and memory. How basic can you
get.
Both of you spend a lot of words and speculation on the forms of memory and
analysis.
++Most of it is not speculation, but observation, metacognitive analysis and
deductive reasoning.
But the process is not one or another, it is a combination.
++Certainly we use many techniques together (without even realizing it)
but there is no reason to assume apriori that everyone uses the all methods
for memorizing equally. You do whatever works for you and it is not the
same for everyone. At least for some people, one way will work much better
than the other ways and that is the method that they use, maybe not even
being aware of other ways to memorize. For example, I almost never use
the method of remembering the visual image of the printed page but I
know someone who did.
Do I memorize which finger goes to which fret, or do I memorize the tones and my
"muscle memory" interprets the interval? No, it is the same processes as are
involved in sports. There is an innate skill for spatial relations, better
in some and worse in others. But that applies to fighter pilots and sailors.
++And to musicians but the motions are on a smaller scale.
And there is an analysis of the piece and the directions of the patterns -
but that again means a memorization specific to the piece. (And as to the
leading directions I recommend Fux's Gradus ad Parnassum, still available as
a paperback although it has been off the best seller list for 500 years -
only to suggest a basis, not to define the entirety of the spectrum).
But then I may be being too strict on the terms, one of you refers to Paul
Odette moving from one lute to another with a few chords. That isn't spatial
memory, it is a very good (and quick) adjustment of psychokinetics\
++Once you invlolve kinetics you have involved space.
- the sense of where you, and your body parts, are.
++Spatial reasoning - where you are and where your body parts are.
It is that sense that the cops test when they think you are driving drunk
and ask you to touch your nose (or bring your index fingers together)
with your eyes closed. This isn't
memory, it is a sense.
++It is nonsense and never take this test. It is not legally required no
matter what the cop says to you.
What Odette has is the ability to quickly change the
length of the nose he is trying to touch. (Yes, it is a form of memory in
that it is an adjustment in the "where" - but it isn't a memory in the sense
of memorization).
++How can memory be separated form memorization?
Muscle memory is more the which muscle and how much, and is more related to
the sequencing than the spacing.
++Here I would refer to motor memory, which includes spatial memory and
a time-dependent sequence of events.
I play tin/penny whistles of varying lengths (and therefore spacing). The
muscle memory is the finger movement, the spacing is a mental adjustment
(which for me takes hours when going from
a D to a low F). But that is a parallel to Odette's shift of lutes.
++Maybe spatial and motor memory are the main methods that you use when
you memorize music.
Aural memory is more complex, it involves not only the memorization of the
melody but also the chording. And, as you both say, the chording can be an
analysis in order to predict it.
++Very interesting subjet. I seems that i cannot imagine a melody without
my mind filling in chords underneath it. I can select the type of chords
and the style but unless I concentrate on the image of only the melody
alone with no chords, my mind automatically fills in chords for me.
But what about different modes?
++The modes are wonderful. Once you recognize the mode you can fill
in the chords!
The patterns vary. I have a guitar, I have played it as a folk/traditional
guitarist for over fifty years. Sometimes when I'm arranging a piece for
harp and can't hear the progression I just pick up the guitar and sing the
melody - my fingers seem to play the right chord automatically.
++We think alike in this regard.
That is a combination of the aural memory of the overall sound that should
go with the melody, the muscle memory of my fingers in chording, and a
subconscious analysis.
++You have just reinforced the point I made above about the combination
of memorization methods.
I can do the same on the harp, but I have to think whether this
should be the 4th, the 5th, the relative minor - or any of the related
chords. A lot quicker to use the old git-fiddle that has the fingering in
muscle memory.
As to the lute, there is one place where motor memory may be needed.
++It helps.
In my limited experience I&#
Re: memorization/Re: Gallot speaks...
Wow, motion and motor - and time and space - and memory. How basic can you get. Both of you spend a lot of words and speculation on the forms of memory and analysis. But the process is not one or another, it is a combination. Do I memorize which finger goes to which fret, or do I memorize the tones and my "muscle memory" interprets the interval? No, it is the same processes as are involved in sports. There is an innate skill for spatial relations, better in some and worse in others. But that applies to fighter pilots and sailors. And there is an analysis of the piece and the directions of the patterns - but that again means a memorization specific to the piece. (And as to the leading directions I recommend Fux's Gradus ad Parnassum, still available as a paperback although it has been off the best seller list for 500 years - only to suggest a basis, not to define the entirety of the spectrum). But then I may be being too strict on the terms, one of you refers to Paul Odette moving from one lute to another with a few chords. That isn't spatial memory, it is a very good (and quick) adjustment of psychokinetics - the sense of where you, and your body parts, are. It is that sense that the cops test when they think you are driving drunk and ask you to touch your nose (or bring your index fingers together) with your eyes closed. This isn't memory, it is a sense. What Odette has is the ability to quickly change the length of the nose he is trying to touch. (Yes, it is a form of memory in that it is an adjustment in the "where" - but it isn't a memory in the sense of memorization). Muscle memory is more the which muscle and how much, and is more related to the sequencing than the spacing. I play tin/penny whistles of varying lengths (and therefore spacing). The muscle memory is the finger movement, the spacing is a mental adjustment (which for me takes hours when going from a D to a low F). But that is a parallel to Odette's shift of lutes. Aural memory is more complex, it involves not only the memorization of the melody but also the chording. And, as you both say, the chording can be an analysis in order to predict it. But what about different modes? The patterns vary. I have a guitar, I have played it as a folk/traditional guitarist for over fifty years. Sometimes when I'm arranging a piece for harp and can't hear the progression I just pick up the guitar and sing the melody - my fingers seem to play the right chord automatically. That is a combination of the aural memory of the overall sound that should go with the melody, the muscle memory of my fingers in chording, and a subconscious analysis. I can do the same on the harp, but I have to think whether this should be the 4th, the 5th, the relative minor - or any of the related chords. A lot quicker to use the old git-fiddle that has the fingering in muscle memory. As to the lute, there is one place where motor memory may be needed. In my limited experience I've found the divisions to be something I'd like to put into muscle memory if I want to play the same piece in the same way. But after all, aren't the divisions merely variations on the main theme that lead into the next key note? So combining the aural memory of the piece, and its musical surroundings, with the muscle memory of the intervals involved (and therefore fingers and courses) and adding the psychokinetic sense of the particular instrument should make the play of the instrument. Not to leave out analysis, but that is predictive rather than reactive. The pattern of the piece is set in your head by your analysis before you play the first note (and hopefully your memory is such that you don't have to go through the whole piece in your head first, although at my age I'm getting to that point - but it does make for some interesting segues into new pieces - I discovered during the Carter Presidency that Hail to the Chief slides right into Marching Through Georgia (( for the foreign among you, that song is anathema to southerners being a celebration of Sherman's destruction))). OK, in summary the memorization of music is a matter of feel - where feel is a combination of a number of senses and memories. Memories of music in general, and this piece in particular. The sense of the instrument, and the memory of the instrument. It helps if the piece has meaningful words, then you can play the song. But it isn't necessary. Make a song without words of it in your head. I have harpist friends who can only play from written music (we call them paper trained), but others can play a melody, and the basic harmony, just on hearing it - the intervals are in their minds and their fingers go to them. I'm not at all sure if memorizing the details of the divisions is aural or "spatial". Best, Jon - Original Message - From: "Dr. Marion Ceruti" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Ed
Re: memorization/Re: Gallot speaks...
Dear Ed,
Please see comments below.
Thank you for contributing to this very interesting
thread.
Best regards,
Marion
-Original Message-
From: Ed Durbrow <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Apr 1, 2005 1:43 AM
To: "Dr. Marion Ceruti" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
lute list
Subject: Re: memorization/Re: Gallot speaks...
Marion wrote:
>I don't believe it is necessary to have a lot of theoretical knowledge
>though. If you can explain it to your self you are analyzing. A teacher
>once told me, 'analysis is making the best case for the piece.' It
>may be as simple
>as describing it in mundane terms: it goes up the scale here, has
>block chords here and then comes to a cadence.
++I think someone else wrote this although I cannot say I disagree
with it. You can get theoretical knowledge by performing the right
kind of analysis, this is how experts learn new knowledge and
formulate new theories. In computer sicence we call a process
similar to this 'knowledge discovery.' Analysis of a piece of music
can go beyond where the notes and chords are going structurally.
You can drill down (at least) one layer below that in detail and ask:
What is the chord sequence, where does that occur elsewhere, what
are the inversions and is there a pattern that repeats itself throughout
this piece and is it similar to other patterns that repeat in pieces
of music by the same composer? By noting what is absent from
a piece you can tell quite a bit about it, so we cannot look only
at what is present in a piece.
Maybe we had the same teacher Marion! I remember my composition
teacher, Will Johnson saying exactly that. I think this kind of
analysis is very useful for memorization and 'organic' because you
are applying your own terms which may be most meaningful to you.
++It has been a long time since I had a music theory class, but
I took it for the easy A anyway. I just needed to know the names of
much of what I had discovered from analysis. The kind of analysis that
can identify patterns that repeat can allow one to perform a sort of
information compression mentally, so one just has to remember
the pattern and where it occurs, rather than to reconstruct the entire
piece from memory as though this kind of long-range order were
not present. Of course, I am not aware of this process when I memorize
music, unless I concentrate on metacognition. Memorizing the repeating
pattern and where it occurs is a form of task reduction, which is a technique
that experts in general use to solve problems.
>Spatial memory:1 This is very important if you have more than one
>lute. There are few other instruments where the physical dimensions
>vary so radically from instrument to instrument.
++Very true, especially if you count the Lombard mandolino which is
the smallest member of the lute family.
>Finding the bass strings on a Baroque lute and landing on familiar
>chord shapes in the left hand would be examples of spatial memory.
++For some reason, I don't have as much trouble finding the correct
left-hand position as finding the bass strings with the right hand, which
brings up another theoretical question. Does spatial and/or motor memory
differ between the right and left hand, not counting the difference in
tasks that the right and left hand must perform to play the music? One can
be sure that associative memory is active when memorizing spatial
positions of the hands. If you remember where to put your left hand, that
should remind you where to put your right hand also as the two positions
are highly correlated in time. This is a process of which we may not
be aware, seeing how automatic it is.
>++How does this differ from motor memory? Aren't both about spatially
>where you put your fingers? Maybe it does not include the time aspect.
>Motor implies motion which includes space and time. Maybe spatial
>memory is more static. What is your idea on that?
I see it as, well, a spatial thing. For example, Paul Odette can pick
up any lute, play a few chords and then play whatever on it, whereas
I still can't get used to the difference in spacing between my Ren
and Baroque lute after years.
++But motor memory also includes spatial memory as one of its two
components, the other one being time. I play several instruments also
but once I pick up an instrument and play a little while, I shift into the
mental mode of that instrument and other instruments don't distract
me unless I have not played an instrument in a long time. I understand
how Paul Odette can do it but it is a hard thing to explain to someone
else who is having trouble doing it. Maybe his approach to music is
similar to mine. You are causing me to analyze what I do when I
pick up a different instrument! I can say that thinking of what I want
to play is a big help. Here again you have associative memory. I associate
the instrument with what I want to p
Re: memorization
Tony, After re-reading your message I though it might be necessary to clear up a few of your misconceptions about early music nostalgia. > >a rock band consisting of four guys, one playing >> guitar, one on Bass, a funny drummer , and a Messo >>soprano, at times. > and the two left are a trout farmer (I think you are >hearing falsetto rather >than mezzosoprano) and a sanctimonious prat The trout farmer, I think your confusing with Ian Anderson. Secondly, I said Messo, not Mezzo, the former having the root firmly biased in the word messy. >Only Townsend wrote 'Tommy', Wrong, Sonny Boy Williams wrote a tune or two. >Only because of amplifiers - see previous threads on >lute amplification I think I could safely say, that even unpluged their louder than your average lute lute player, that of course, if there not using one of my lutes. >>They were flamboyant live, And that's more than I can say about what's taking place tonight at, the Brewist Monks' Stage, at 41 E 7th St. (underneath the popular pubs Brewsky's and Burp Castle) Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: "Tony Chalkley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Friday, April 01, 2005 11:47 AM Subject: OT: memorization > Dear Michael, > > > > BTW, Roman, the Who are > > were - two of them are dead > > >a rock band consisting of four guys, one playing > > guitar, one on Bass, a funny drummer , and a Messo soprano, at times. > > and the two left are a trout farmer (I think you are hearing falsetto rather > than mezzosoprano) and a sanctimonious prat. > > >They wrote probably the best most popular opera of the century. At > least > > according to record sales. > > Only Townsend wrote 'Tommy', and popularity doesn't make it good - people > like bandwagons. There's some pretty duff stuff in there if you listen. > > > However, they've been known to play variations on a simple theme, and > > they are much louder than most lute players. > > Only because of amplifiers - see previous threads on lute amplification. > > > And I would assign them in the " GOOD " music category. > > They were flamboyant live, and some of the early songs may last, but it'll > take a while to sift out the good from the bad. > > Don't confuse nostalgia with early music. > > Yours, > > Tony > > > > Michael Thames > > www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com > > - Original Message - > > From: "Roman Turovsky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; > > Sent: Friday, April 01, 2005 10:31 AM > > Subject: Re: Antwort: Re: memorization > > > > > > > > Evangelina Mascardi already did a record of Bach > > > > Thomas > > > But it includes some SLW as well. > > > RT > > > > > > > > > > > Am Freitag, 1. April 2005 18:27 schrieb Roman Turovsky: > > > >>>> I do not know if my judgment is heretic, but between a >Bach's or > > Weiss' > > > >>>> CD > > > >>> > > > >>> I have no doubts... > > > >>> > > > >>>> Weiss is really interesting, but Bach is a genius > > > >>>> > > > >>>> Paolo > > > >>> > > > >>> Yes, I wonder who the next genius to make an all Bach lute recording > > is > > > >>> going to be. > > > >> > > > >> Karamazov or Mascardi. > > > >> RT > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> To get on or off this list see list information at > > > >> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Thomas Schall > > > > Niederhofheimer Weg 3 > > > > D-65843 Sulzbach > > > > 06196/74519 > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
RE: Antwort: Re: memorization
>Ed, Personally I think the trend to online music sales will be a boon to all kinds of musicians who never make it to Top 40 radio status. I think all it would take would be a hosting service with an e-commerce front end and an account with a bank that would accept the credit transfers. For a long time there has been a similar niche market for special-purpose software for things like PDAs. You can't find software like that in computer stores, but you can buy it online. And it went online for the same reason that music is going online: a few big names dominate the software industry. Classical music recording is almost like academic publishing. Academics need to publish their work in order to get tenure and promotion, but there is virtually no monetary reward and the author must pay for all kinds of things like photographs and image rights. In the end, most copies of academic books end up on sale tables in front of bookstores in university towns. Tim > > > Original Message >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], lute@cs.dartmouth.edu >Subject: RE: Antwort: Re: memorization >Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 02:47:07 +0900 > >>>I think that most of the expense in putting out a CD comes from >>>marketing the CD, not in physically producing it. Judging from his >>>website, Ed Durbrow does professional level recording in his home. >> >>Thank you. >> >>>I've tried voice (spoken word) recording using a >>>laptop and a TASCAM interface and was surprised at how simple it >was >>>(at least on that level - recording instruments is, I'm sure, much >>>more complicated). >> >>Let's say it's a craft bordering on an art. A great engineer can >>demand 'points' from a recording, just like a producer. >> >>>So the initial expense doesn't have to be huge. But to make enough >>>money to support yourself at even a modest level requires huge >sales >>>and the marketing effort to achieve those sales. >> >>So true. The technology available today is incredible. >Interestingly, >>the most important link, the microphone, has hardly changed and >>'vintage' mics sell for thousands of dollars. >> >>> And that's where >>>the record companies pick and choose. Even in popular music there >>>are more rock bands that sign contracts and make albums than end up >>>in your local record store. Record companies decide which bands >will >>>have a market and those are the ones they push. The same thing >>>happens in book publishing. >> >>The general public just doesn't understand this. For every band that > >>is signed, only a fraction will become profitable. >> >>>Personally, I find niche online music stores like Magnatune to be >>>very interesting for that reason. >> >>Bless Mr. Buckman. >> >>> My son hasn't bought a physical CD in years, >>>he downloads it all and puts it on his iPod. So if people in early >>>music want to attract a wider audience, that's the way to do it. >You >>>won't make a lot of money, but it is a way for music that doesn't >>>have a vast audience to be heard by people who enjoy and appreciate >>>it, and for the musicians to earn at least some money from their >>>efforts. >> >>It is definitely moving in that direction. My daughter went from CD >>Walkman to MD to iPod. This is not good news for recording >companies, >>but it is reality. Now there are PodCasts too. >> >>The careers of recording artists have always been a symbiotic >>relationship between record sales and live performance. Record sales > >>get the artist known so that people go to the concerts. Concerts >>turn-on the audience so that they go to the lobby, or record store >>later, and buy the CDs, - or online in the new paradigm. >> >>A well known lutenist told me he never received a penny from the >many >>recordings he'd done, except for one where he got a composition >>credit. >> >>cheers, >>-- >>Ed Durbrow >>Saitama, Japan >>http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ >> >> >> >>To get on or off this list see list information at >>http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >>
Re: memorization
>Don't confuse nostalgia with early music. >Yours, >Tony Tony are you for real ? I have no words for what you just wrote. Man you take things seriously, lightin up Dude. I would have expected this kind of reply from Roman But from you! Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: "Tony Chalkley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Friday, April 01, 2005 11:47 AM Subject: OT: memorization > Dear Michael, > > > > BTW, Roman, the Who are > > were - two of them are dead > > >a rock band consisting of four guys, one playing > > guitar, one on Bass, a funny drummer , and a Messo soprano, at times. > > and the two left are a trout farmer (I think you are hearing falsetto rather > than mezzosoprano) and a sanctimonious prat. > > >They wrote probably the best most popular opera of the century. At > least > > according to record sales. > > Only Townsend wrote 'Tommy', and popularity doesn't make it good - people > like bandwagons. There's some pretty duff stuff in there if you listen. > > > However, they've been known to play variations on a simple theme, and > > they are much louder than most lute players. > > Only because of amplifiers - see previous threads on lute amplification. > > > And I would assign them in the " GOOD " music category. > > They were flamboyant live, and some of the early songs may last, but it'll > take a while to sift out the good from the bad. > > Don't confuse nostalgia with early music. > > Yours, > > Tony > > > > Michael Thames > > www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com > > - Original Message - > > From: "Roman Turovsky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; > > Sent: Friday, April 01, 2005 10:31 AM > > Subject: Re: Antwort: Re: memorization > > > > > > > > Evangelina Mascardi already did a record of Bach > > > > Thomas > > > But it includes some SLW as well. > > > RT > > > > > > > > > > > Am Freitag, 1. April 2005 18:27 schrieb Roman Turovsky: > > > >>>> I do not know if my judgment is heretic, but between a >Bach's or > > Weiss' > > > >>>> CD > > > >>> > > > >>> I have no doubts... > > > >>> > > > >>>> Weiss is really interesting, but Bach is a genius > > > >>>> > > > >>>> Paolo > > > >>> > > > >>> Yes, I wonder who the next genius to make an all Bach lute recording > > is > > > >>> going to be. > > > >> > > > >> Karamazov or Mascardi. > > > >> RT > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> To get on or off this list see list information at > > > >> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Thomas Schall > > > > Niederhofheimer Weg 3 > > > > D-65843 Sulzbach > > > > 06196/74519 > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
Re: memorization
If you go to the links section of the Lute Society of America web site www.LuteSocietyofAmerica.org there are links to several big research projects that will give you a bit of information on how much is out there. The Craig-Feeley dissertation on Elizabethan manuscripts is there as well as some others. Nancy Carlin > > I would like some definite information on the true extent of the lute > >rep. I hear, for instance about the English "Golden Age." How many printed > >sources? 4? 5? How many manuscripts, and in those ms. How many pieces that > >are repeated. > >D. A. Smith in _A History of the Lute_ says in the Epilog that there >are more than 40,000 pieces divided almost equally between Baroque >and Renaissance. I've seen higher estimates. Try the LuteNet >archives. I think Arthur Ness mentioned a number once. If you want to >include song books that would significantly up the ante. > >cheers, >-- >Ed Durbrow >Saitama, Japan >http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ > > > >To get on or off this list see list information at >http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Nancy Carlin Associates P.O. Box 6499 Concord, CA 94524 USA phone 925/686-5800 fax 925/680-2582 web site - www.nancycarlinassociates.com Administrator THE LUTE SOCIETY OF AMERICA web site - http://LuteSocietyofAmerica.org --
Re: Antwort: Re: memorization
BTW, Roman, the Who are a rock band consisting of four guys, one playing guitar, one on Bass, a funny drummer , and a Messo soprano, at times. They wrote probably the best most popular opera of the century. At least according to record sales. However, they've been known to play variations on a simple theme, and they are much louder than most lute players. And I would assign them in the " GOOD " music category. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: "Roman Turovsky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; Sent: Friday, April 01, 2005 10:31 AM Subject: Re: Antwort: Re: memorization > > Evangelina Mascardi already did a record of Bach > > Thomas > But it includes some SLW as well. > RT > > > > > Am Freitag, 1. April 2005 18:27 schrieb Roman Turovsky: > >>>> I do not know if my judgment is heretic, but between a >Bach's or Weiss' > >>>> CD > >>> > >>> I have no doubts... > >>> > >>>> Weiss is really interesting, but Bach is a genius > >>>> > >>>> Paolo > >>> > >>> Yes, I wonder who the next genius to make an all Bach lute recording is > >>> going to be. > >> > >> Karamazov or Mascardi. > >> RT > >> > >> > >> > >> To get on or off this list see list information at > >> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > > -- > > Thomas Schall > > Niederhofheimer Weg 3 > > D-65843 Sulzbach > > 06196/74519 > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > >
RE: Antwort: Re: memorization
>I think that most of the expense in putting out a CD comes from >marketing the CD, not in physically producing it. Judging from his >website, Ed Durbrow does professional level recording in his home. Thank you. >I've tried voice (spoken word) recording using a >laptop and a TASCAM interface and was surprised at how simple it was >(at least on that level - recording instruments is, I'm sure, much >more complicated). Let's say it's a craft bordering on an art. A great engineer can demand 'points' from a recording, just like a producer. >So the initial expense doesn't have to be huge. But to make enough >money to support yourself at even a modest level requires huge sales >and the marketing effort to achieve those sales. So true. The technology available today is incredible. Interestingly, the most important link, the microphone, has hardly changed and 'vintage' mics sell for thousands of dollars. > And that's where >the record companies pick and choose. Even in popular music there >are more rock bands that sign contracts and make albums than end up >in your local record store. Record companies decide which bands will >have a market and those are the ones they push. The same thing >happens in book publishing. The general public just doesn't understand this. For every band that is signed, only a fraction will become profitable. >Personally, I find niche online music stores like Magnatune to be >very interesting for that reason. Bless Mr. Buckman. > My son hasn't bought a physical CD in years, >he downloads it all and puts it on his iPod. So if people in early >music want to attract a wider audience, that's the way to do it. You >won't make a lot of money, but it is a way for music that doesn't >have a vast audience to be heard by people who enjoy and appreciate >it, and for the musicians to earn at least some money from their >efforts. It is definitely moving in that direction. My daughter went from CD Walkman to MD to iPod. This is not good news for recording companies, but it is reality. Now there are PodCasts too. The careers of recording artists have always been a symbiotic relationship between record sales and live performance. Record sales get the artist known so that people go to the concerts. Concerts turn-on the audience so that they go to the lobby, or record store later, and buy the CDs, - or online in the new paradigm. A well known lutenist told me he never received a penny from the many recordings he'd done, except for one where he got a composition credit. cheers, -- Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: memorization
>Dear All: > Just for the record, Ronn McFarlane has performed entire concerts from >memory. This has sometimes included some of his own compositions -- which >of course is an entirely different thing regarding memorization How so? -- Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Antwort: Re: memorization
> Evangelina Mascardi already did a record of Bach > Thomas But it includes some SLW as well. RT > > Am Freitag, 1. April 2005 18:27 schrieb Roman Turovsky: I do not know if my judgment is heretic, but between a >Bach's or Weiss' CD >>> >>> I have no doubts... >>> Weiss is really interesting, but Bach is a genius Paolo >>> >>> Yes, I wonder who the next genius to make an all Bach lute recording is >>> going to be. >> >> Karamazov or Mascardi. >> RT >> >> >> >> To get on or off this list see list information at >> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > -- > Thomas Schall > Niederhofheimer Weg 3 > D-65843 Sulzbach > 06196/74519 > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >
Re: Antwort: Re: memorization
Evangelina Mascardi already did a record of Bach Thomas Am Freitag, 1. April 2005 18:27 schrieb Roman Turovsky: > >> I do not know if my judgment is heretic, but between a >Bach's or Weiss' > >> CD > > > > I have no doubts... > > > >> Weiss is really interesting, but Bach is a genius > >> > >> Paolo > > > > Yes, I wonder who the next genius to make an all Bach lute recording is > > going to be. > > Karamazov or Mascardi. > RT > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Thomas Schall Niederhofheimer Weg 3 D-65843 Sulzbach 06196/74519 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: memorization
Joseph Mayes wrote: >"some duplication?" I would say much duplication. Julia Craig McFeely addresses this issue. I forgot the number, but it may be less duplication than you think. Anybody? -- Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Antwort: Re: memorization
actually I think the effort to study Bach's work isn't justified by the result. I just played a bit of it for two reason's: It was unwritten rule at the conservatory to play a piece by Bach in the exams and I wanted to prove to myself that I would be able to pass them and second I wondered why so many people seem to enjoy playing Bach on the lute. I stuck with the versions of Weyrauch/Falckenhagen ... Best wishes Thomas Am Freitag, 1. April 2005 18:14 schrieb Michael Thames: > >I agree with Michael that Weiss wins on lute, but as so >many > >things are, this is a matter of personal preference. If I had > >to select a composer who is most responsible for the >renewed > >interest in baroque lute today, it would be Weiss. Bach's >music > >is very beautiful and fun to play but it is not lute specific. > >He wrote for ***voice***:) and a variety of non->biological > >instruments. > > > >Cheers, > >Marion > > Marion, Thank God! your a Beautiful voice in the wilderness. > > Michael Thames > www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com > - Original Message - > From: "Dr. Marion Ceruti" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "Michael Thames" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: "thomas.schall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; > "lute" > ; "tamotz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Friday, April 01, 2005 9:09 AM > Subject: Re: Antwort: Re: memorization > -- Thomas Schall Niederhofheimer Weg 3 D-65843 Sulzbach 06196/74519 [EMAIL PROTECTED] To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Antwort: Re: memorization
>Thank you, Michael for your kind words. I believe that >many people >agree with us that not only does Weiss music sound good >but >feels good to play under the fingers. You can tell that it >was written >for baroque lute. >Best regards, >Marion Absolutely, My lute has a scale of 73cm very difficult to play Bach on. Although Weiss is no problem. I'm considering making a liitle Frei conversion bass rider thingy, like Paul Odettes Baroque lute, Just for Bach. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: "Dr. Marion Ceruti" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Michael Thames" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: "thomas.schall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "lute" ; "tamotz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Friday, April 01, 2005 9:26 AM Subject: Re: Antwort: Re: memorization > Thank you, Michael for your kind words. I believe that many people > agree with us that not only does Weiss music sound good but > feels good to play under the fingers. You can tell that it was written > for baroque lute. > > Best regards, > Marion > > -Original Message- > From: Michael Thames <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Apr 1, 2005 8:14 AM > To: "Dr. Marion Ceruti" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Cc: "thomas.schall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, lute , > tamotz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: Re: Antwort: Re: memorization > > >I agree with Michael that Weiss wins on lute, but as so >many > >things are, this is a matter of personal preference. If I had > >to select a composer who is most responsible for the >renewed > >interest in baroque lute today, it would be Weiss. Bach's >music > >is very beautiful and fun to play but it is not lute specific. > >He wrote for ***voice***:) and a variety of non->biological > >instruments. > > >Cheers, > >Marion > > Marion, Thank God! your a Beautiful voice in the wilderness. > > Michael Thames > www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com > - Original Message - > From: "Dr. Marion Ceruti" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "Michael Thames" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Cc: "thomas.schall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "lute" > ; "tamotz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Friday, April 01, 2005 9:09 AM > Subject: Re: Antwort: Re: memorization > > > > > > I agree with Michael that Weiss wins on lute, but as so many > > things are, this is a matter of personal preference. If I had > > to select a composer who is most responsible for the renewed > > interest in baroque lute today, it would be Weiss. Bach's music > > is very beautiful and fun to play but it is not lute specific. > > He wrote for ***voice***:) and a variety of non-biological > > instruments. > > > > Cheers, > > Marion > > > > -Original Message- > > From: Michael Thames <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Sent: Apr 1, 2005 8:00 AM > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Cc: "thomas.schall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, lute > , > > tamotz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Subject: Re: Antwort: Re: memorization > > > > >I do not know if my judgment is heretic, but between a >Bach's or Weiss' > CD > > I have no doubts... > > >Weiss is really interesting, but Bach is a genius > > > > >Paolo > > > > Yes, I wonder who the next genius to make an all Bach lute recording > is > > going to be. > > I respectfully disagree, on the lute Weiss wins, however, Bach is a > > very close second. > > Michael Thames > > www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com > > - Original Message - > > From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: "michaelthames" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Cc: "thomas.schall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "lute" > > ; "tamotz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Sent: Friday, April 01, 2005 8:27 AM > > Subject: Re: Antwort: Re: memorization > > > > > > > I do not know if my judgement is heretic, but between a Bach's or Weiss' > > CD I have no doubts... > > > Weiss is really intersting, but Bach is a genius > > > > > > Paolo > > > > > > > >Timothy wrote, > > > > > Record companies decide which bands will > > > > >have a market and those are the ones they push. The >same thing > > > > >happens in book publishing. > > > > > > > > This also why Paul Odette's
Re: Antwort: Re: memorization
Thank you, Michael for your kind words. I believe that many people agree with us that not only does Weiss music sound good but feels good to play under the fingers. You can tell that it was written for baroque lute. Best regards, Marion -Original Message- From: Michael Thames <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Apr 1, 2005 8:14 AM To: "Dr. Marion Ceruti" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: "thomas.schall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, lute , tamotz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: Antwort: Re: memorization >I agree with Michael that Weiss wins on lute, but as so >many >things are, this is a matter of personal preference. If I had >to select a composer who is most responsible for the >renewed >interest in baroque lute today, it would be Weiss. Bach's >music >is very beautiful and fun to play but it is not lute specific. >He wrote for ***voice***:) and a variety of non->biological >instruments. >Cheers, >Marion Marion, Thank God! your a Beautiful voice in the wilderness. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: "Dr. Marion Ceruti" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Michael Thames" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: "thomas.schall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "lute" ; "tamotz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Friday, April 01, 2005 9:09 AM Subject: Re: Antwort: Re: memorization > > I agree with Michael that Weiss wins on lute, but as so many > things are, this is a matter of personal preference. If I had > to select a composer who is most responsible for the renewed > interest in baroque lute today, it would be Weiss. Bach's music > is very beautiful and fun to play but it is not lute specific. > He wrote for ***voice***:) and a variety of non-biological > instruments. > > Cheers, > Marion > > -Original Message- > From: Michael Thames <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Apr 1, 2005 8:00 AM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Cc: "thomas.schall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, lute , > tamotz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: Re: Antwort: Re: memorization > > >I do not know if my judgment is heretic, but between a >Bach's or Weiss' CD > I have no doubts... > >Weiss is really interesting, but Bach is a genius > > >Paolo > > Yes, I wonder who the next genius to make an all Bach lute recording is > going to be. > I respectfully disagree, on the lute Weiss wins, however, Bach is a > very close second. > Michael Thames > www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com > - Original Message - > From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "michaelthames" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Cc: "thomas.schall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "lute" > ; "tamotz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Friday, April 01, 2005 8:27 AM > Subject: Re: Antwort: Re: memorization > > > > I do not know if my judgement is heretic, but between a Bach's or Weiss' > CD I have no doubts... > > Weiss is really intersting, but Bach is a genius > > > > Paolo > > > > > >Timothy wrote, > > > > Record companies decide which bands will > > > >have a market and those are the ones they push. The >same thing > > > >happens in book publishing. > > > > > > This also why Paul Odette's latest CD has three Bach suites, and one > > > Weiss. They know where their bread is buttered. > > > Michael Thames > > > www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com > > > - Original Message - > > > From: "timothy motz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; > > > Sent: Friday, April 01, 2005 8:07 AM > > > Subject: RE: Antwort: Re: memorization > > > > > > > > > > >Thomas, > > > > I think that most of the expense in putting out a CD comes from > > > > marketing the CD, not in physically producing it. Judging from his > > > > website, Ed Durbrow does professional level recording in his home. I > > > > once had a neighbor who did the same thing (with rock music, > > > > unfortunately). I've tried voice (spoken word) recording using a > > > > laptop and a TASCAM interface and was surprised at how simple it was > > > > (at least on that level - recording instruments is, I'm sure, much > > > > more complicated). > > > > > > > > So the initial expense doesn't have to be huge. But to make enough > > > > money to support yourself at even a modest level requires huge sales > > > &g
Re: memorization
>Could it then be there are actually 5000 lutenist in the world? If you count everyone who owns a lute, probably a lot more. We had this discussion a year or more ago on the LuteNet. cheers, -- Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Antwort: Re: memorization
>I agree with Michael that Weiss wins on lute, but as so >many >things are, this is a matter of personal preference. If I had >to select a composer who is most responsible for the >renewed >interest in baroque lute today, it would be Weiss. Bach's >music >is very beautiful and fun to play but it is not lute specific. >He wrote for ***voice***:) and a variety of non->biological >instruments. >Cheers, >Marion Marion, Thank God! your a Beautiful voice in the wilderness. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: "Dr. Marion Ceruti" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Michael Thames" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: "thomas.schall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "lute" ; "tamotz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Friday, April 01, 2005 9:09 AM Subject: Re: Antwort: Re: memorization > > I agree with Michael that Weiss wins on lute, but as so many > things are, this is a matter of personal preference. If I had > to select a composer who is most responsible for the renewed > interest in baroque lute today, it would be Weiss. Bach's music > is very beautiful and fun to play but it is not lute specific. > He wrote for ***voice***:) and a variety of non-biological > instruments. > > Cheers, > Marion > > -Original Message- > From: Michael Thames <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Apr 1, 2005 8:00 AM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Cc: "thomas.schall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, lute , > tamotz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: Re: Antwort: Re: memorization > > >I do not know if my judgment is heretic, but between a >Bach's or Weiss' CD > I have no doubts... > >Weiss is really interesting, but Bach is a genius > > >Paolo > > Yes, I wonder who the next genius to make an all Bach lute recording is > going to be. > I respectfully disagree, on the lute Weiss wins, however, Bach is a > very close second. > Michael Thames > www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com > - Original Message - > From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "michaelthames" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Cc: "thomas.schall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "lute" > ; "tamotz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Friday, April 01, 2005 8:27 AM > Subject: Re: Antwort: Re: memorization > > > > I do not know if my judgement is heretic, but between a Bach's or Weiss' > CD I have no doubts... > > Weiss is really intersting, but Bach is a genius > > > > Paolo > > > > > >Timothy wrote, > > > > Record companies decide which bands will > > > >have a market and those are the ones they push. The >same thing > > > >happens in book publishing. > > > > > > This also why Paul Odette's latest CD has three Bach suites, and one > > > Weiss. They know where their bread is buttered. > > > Michael Thames > > > www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com > > > - Original Message - > > > From: "timothy motz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; > > > Sent: Friday, April 01, 2005 8:07 AM > > > Subject: RE: Antwort: Re: memorization > > > > > > > > > > >Thomas, > > > > I think that most of the expense in putting out a CD comes from > > > > marketing the CD, not in physically producing it. Judging from his > > > > website, Ed Durbrow does professional level recording in his home. I > > > > once had a neighbor who did the same thing (with rock music, > > > > unfortunately). I've tried voice (spoken word) recording using a > > > > laptop and a TASCAM interface and was surprised at how simple it was > > > > (at least on that level - recording instruments is, I'm sure, much > > > > more complicated). > > > > > > > > So the initial expense doesn't have to be huge. But to make enough > > > > money to support yourself at even a modest level requires huge sales > > > > and the marketing effort to achieve those sales. And that's where > > > > the record companies pick and choose. Even in popular music there > > > > are more rock bands that sign contracts and make albums than end up > > > > in your local record store. Record companies decide which bands will > > > > have a market and those are the ones they push. The same thing > > > > happens in book publishing. > > > > > > > > Personally, I find niche online music stores like M
Re: Antwort: Re: memorization
I agree with Michael that Weiss wins on lute, but as so many things are, this is a matter of personal preference. If I had to select a composer who is most responsible for the renewed interest in baroque lute today, it would be Weiss. Bach's music is very beautiful and fun to play but it is not lute specific. He wrote for ***voice***:) and a variety of non-biological instruments. Cheers, Marion -Original Message- From: Michael Thames <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Apr 1, 2005 8:00 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: "thomas.schall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, lute , tamotz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: Antwort: Re: memorization >I do not know if my judgment is heretic, but between a >Bach's or Weiss' CD I have no doubts... >Weiss is really interesting, but Bach is a genius >Paolo Yes, I wonder who the next genius to make an all Bach lute recording is going to be. I respectfully disagree, on the lute Weiss wins, however, Bach is a very close second. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "michaelthames" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: "thomas.schall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "lute" ; "tamotz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Friday, April 01, 2005 8:27 AM Subject: Re: Antwort: Re: memorization > I do not know if my judgement is heretic, but between a Bach's or Weiss' CD I have no doubts... > Weiss is really intersting, but Bach is a genius > > Paolo > > > >Timothy wrote, > > > Record companies decide which bands will > > >have a market and those are the ones they push. The >same thing > > >happens in book publishing. > > > > This also why Paul Odette's latest CD has three Bach suites, and one > > Weiss. They know where their bread is buttered. > > Michael Thames > > www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com > > - Original Message - > > From: "timothy motz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; > > Sent: Friday, April 01, 2005 8:07 AM > > Subject: RE: Antwort: Re: memorization > > > > > > > >Thomas, > > > I think that most of the expense in putting out a CD comes from > > > marketing the CD, not in physically producing it. Judging from his > > > website, Ed Durbrow does professional level recording in his home. I > > > once had a neighbor who did the same thing (with rock music, > > > unfortunately). I've tried voice (spoken word) recording using a > > > laptop and a TASCAM interface and was surprised at how simple it was > > > (at least on that level - recording instruments is, I'm sure, much > > > more complicated). > > > > > > So the initial expense doesn't have to be huge. But to make enough > > > money to support yourself at even a modest level requires huge sales > > > and the marketing effort to achieve those sales. And that's where > > > the record companies pick and choose. Even in popular music there > > > are more rock bands that sign contracts and make albums than end up > > > in your local record store. Record companies decide which bands will > > > have a market and those are the ones they push. The same thing > > > happens in book publishing. > > > > > > Personally, I find niche online music stores like Magnatune to be > > > very interesting for that reason. They lessen the need for an > > > expensive marketing effort. If your music is being sold online and > > > the web site has been designed and metatagged correctly, interested > > > listeners will find it. My son hasn't bought a physical CD in years, > > > he downloads it all and puts it on his iPod. So if people in early > > > music want to attract a wider audience, that's the way to do it. You > > > won't make a lot of money, but it is a way for music that doesn't > > > have a vast audience to be heard by people who enjoy and appreciate > > > it, and for the musicians to earn at least some money from their > > > efforts. > > > > > > I think it would be better for the LSA to start up something like > > > that than to hold a lute competition, as has been suggested. > > > Although I've enjoyed the Venere Quartet CD that the LSA is selling, > > > I wonder if in the future the LSA might be better off to do things > > > completely online. > > > > > > Tim > > > > > > > > > > > > Original Message > > > >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >
Re: memorization
> I would like some definite information on the true extent of the lute >rep. I hear, for instance about the English "Golden Age." How many printed >sources? 4? 5? How many manuscripts, and in those ms. How many pieces that >are repeated. D. A. Smith in _A History of the Lute_ says in the Epilog that there are more than 40,000 pieces divided almost equally between Baroque and Renaissance. I've seen higher estimates. Try the LuteNet archives. I think Arthur Ness mentioned a number once. If you want to include song books that would significantly up the ante. cheers, -- Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Antwort: Re: memorization
>> I do not know if my judgment is heretic, but between a >Bach's or Weiss' CD > I have no doubts... >> Weiss is really interesting, but Bach is a genius > >> Paolo > > Yes, I wonder who the next genius to make an all Bach lute recording is > going to be. Karamazov or Mascardi. RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Antwort: Re: memorization
>I do not know if my judgment is heretic, but between a >Bach's or Weiss' CD I have no doubts... >Weiss is really interesting, but Bach is a genius >Paolo Yes, I wonder who the next genius to make an all Bach lute recording is going to be. I respectfully disagree, on the lute Weiss wins, however, Bach is a very close second. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "michaelthames" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: "thomas.schall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "lute" ; "tamotz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Friday, April 01, 2005 8:27 AM Subject: Re: Antwort: Re: memorization > I do not know if my judgement is heretic, but between a Bach's or Weiss' CD I have no doubts... > Weiss is really intersting, but Bach is a genius > > Paolo > > > >Timothy wrote, > > > Record companies decide which bands will > > >have a market and those are the ones they push. The >same thing > > >happens in book publishing. > > > > This also why Paul Odette's latest CD has three Bach suites, and one > > Weiss. They know where their bread is buttered. > > Michael Thames > > www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com > > - Original Message - > > From: "timothy motz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; > > Sent: Friday, April 01, 2005 8:07 AM > > Subject: RE: Antwort: Re: memorization > > > > > > > >Thomas, > > > I think that most of the expense in putting out a CD comes from > > > marketing the CD, not in physically producing it. Judging from his > > > website, Ed Durbrow does professional level recording in his home. I > > > once had a neighbor who did the same thing (with rock music, > > > unfortunately). I've tried voice (spoken word) recording using a > > > laptop and a TASCAM interface and was surprised at how simple it was > > > (at least on that level - recording instruments is, I'm sure, much > > > more complicated). > > > > > > So the initial expense doesn't have to be huge. But to make enough > > > money to support yourself at even a modest level requires huge sales > > > and the marketing effort to achieve those sales. And that's where > > > the record companies pick and choose. Even in popular music there > > > are more rock bands that sign contracts and make albums than end up > > > in your local record store. Record companies decide which bands will > > > have a market and those are the ones they push. The same thing > > > happens in book publishing. > > > > > > Personally, I find niche online music stores like Magnatune to be > > > very interesting for that reason. They lessen the need for an > > > expensive marketing effort. If your music is being sold online and > > > the web site has been designed and metatagged correctly, interested > > > listeners will find it. My son hasn't bought a physical CD in years, > > > he downloads it all and puts it on his iPod. So if people in early > > > music want to attract a wider audience, that's the way to do it. You > > > won't make a lot of money, but it is a way for music that doesn't > > > have a vast audience to be heard by people who enjoy and appreciate > > > it, and for the musicians to earn at least some money from their > > > efforts. > > > > > > I think it would be better for the LSA to start up something like > > > that than to hold a lute competition, as has been suggested. > > > Although I've enjoyed the Venere Quartet CD that the LSA is selling, > > > I wonder if in the future the LSA might be better off to do things > > > completely online. > > > > > > Tim > > > > > > > > > > > > Original Message > > > >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > >To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > > > >Subject: RE: Antwort: Re: memorization > > > >Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 09:44:05 +0200 > > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >>There is also an aspect different to the economical: Naxos has a > > > >world-wide > > > >>marketing and I found his CDs even in the record shop near to my > > > >home town > > > >>(although seldom the newest - I think at the moment they have #4 in > > > >stock). > > > >>And on t
Re: Antwort: Re: memorization
I do not know if my judgement is heretic, but between a Bach's or Weiss' CD I have no doubts... Weiss is really intersting, but Bach is a genius Paolo > >Timothy wrote, > > Record companies decide which bands will > >have a market and those are the ones they push. The >same thing > >happens in book publishing. > > This also why Paul Odette's latest CD has three Bach suites, and one > Weiss. They know where their bread is buttered. > Michael Thames > www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com > - Original Message - > From: "timothy motz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; > Sent: Friday, April 01, 2005 8:07 AM > Subject: RE: Antwort: Re: memorization > > > > >Thomas, > > I think that most of the expense in putting out a CD comes from > > marketing the CD, not in physically producing it. Judging from his > > website, Ed Durbrow does professional level recording in his home. I > > once had a neighbor who did the same thing (with rock music, > > unfortunately). I've tried voice (spoken word) recording using a > > laptop and a TASCAM interface and was surprised at how simple it was > > (at least on that level - recording instruments is, I'm sure, much > > more complicated). > > > > So the initial expense doesn't have to be huge. But to make enough > > money to support yourself at even a modest level requires huge sales > > and the marketing effort to achieve those sales. And that's where > > the record companies pick and choose. Even in popular music there > > are more rock bands that sign contracts and make albums than end up > > in your local record store. Record companies decide which bands will > > have a market and those are the ones they push. The same thing > > happens in book publishing. > > > > Personally, I find niche online music stores like Magnatune to be > > very interesting for that reason. They lessen the need for an > > expensive marketing effort. If your music is being sold online and > > the web site has been designed and metatagged correctly, interested > > listeners will find it. My son hasn't bought a physical CD in years, > > he downloads it all and puts it on his iPod. So if people in early > > music want to attract a wider audience, that's the way to do it. You > > won't make a lot of money, but it is a way for music that doesn't > > have a vast audience to be heard by people who enjoy and appreciate > > it, and for the musicians to earn at least some money from their > > efforts. > > > > I think it would be better for the LSA to start up something like > > that than to hold a lute competition, as has been suggested. > > Although I've enjoyed the Venere Quartet CD that the LSA is selling, > > I wonder if in the future the LSA might be better off to do things > > completely online. > > > > Tim > > > > > > > > > Original Message > > >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > >To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > > >Subject: RE: Antwort: Re: memorization > > >Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 09:44:05 +0200 > > > > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >>There is also an aspect different to the economical: Naxos has a > > >world-wide > > >>marketing and I found his CDs even in the record shop near to my > > >home town > > >>(although seldom the newest - I think at the moment they have #4 in > > >stock). > > >>And on the economical side: Producing a CD on a professional level > > >is > > >>expensive. Lute players usually are not rich and I imagine it would > > >be hard > > >>to pay for a record with uncertainty that you will ever get back the > > >money > > >>you invested and when you will get it back > > >> > > >>Best wishes > > >>Thomas > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >>"Michael Thames" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> am 31.03.2005 18:09:35 > > >> > > >>An:"lute net" , "Denys Stephens" > > >> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "Roman Turovsky" > > >> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > >>Kopie: > > >> > > >>Thema: Re: memorization > > >> > > >>>> I also, happen to know that no record company will invest in > > >something > > >>>> that won't sell. >
Re: Antwort: Re: memorization
>Timothy wrote, > Record companies decide which bands will >have a market and those are the ones they push. The >same thing >happens in book publishing. This also why Paul Odette's latest CD has three Bach suites, and one Weiss. They know where their bread is buttered. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: "timothy motz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; Sent: Friday, April 01, 2005 8:07 AM Subject: RE: Antwort: Re: memorization > >Thomas, > I think that most of the expense in putting out a CD comes from > marketing the CD, not in physically producing it. Judging from his > website, Ed Durbrow does professional level recording in his home. I > once had a neighbor who did the same thing (with rock music, > unfortunately). I've tried voice (spoken word) recording using a > laptop and a TASCAM interface and was surprised at how simple it was > (at least on that level - recording instruments is, I'm sure, much > more complicated). > > So the initial expense doesn't have to be huge. But to make enough > money to support yourself at even a modest level requires huge sales > and the marketing effort to achieve those sales. And that's where > the record companies pick and choose. Even in popular music there > are more rock bands that sign contracts and make albums than end up > in your local record store. Record companies decide which bands will > have a market and those are the ones they push. The same thing > happens in book publishing. > > Personally, I find niche online music stores like Magnatune to be > very interesting for that reason. They lessen the need for an > expensive marketing effort. If your music is being sold online and > the web site has been designed and metatagged correctly, interested > listeners will find it. My son hasn't bought a physical CD in years, > he downloads it all and puts it on his iPod. So if people in early > music want to attract a wider audience, that's the way to do it. You > won't make a lot of money, but it is a way for music that doesn't > have a vast audience to be heard by people who enjoy and appreciate > it, and for the musicians to earn at least some money from their > efforts. > > I think it would be better for the LSA to start up something like > that than to hold a lute competition, as has been suggested. > Although I've enjoyed the Venere Quartet CD that the LSA is selling, > I wonder if in the future the LSA might be better off to do things > completely online. > > Tim > > > > > > Original Message > >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > >Subject: RE: Antwort: Re: memorization > >Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 09:44:05 +0200 > > > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >>There is also an aspect different to the economical: Naxos has a > >world-wide > >>marketing and I found his CDs even in the record shop near to my > >home town > >>(although seldom the newest - I think at the moment they have #4 in > >stock). > >>And on the economical side: Producing a CD on a professional level > >is > >>expensive. Lute players usually are not rich and I imagine it would > >be hard > >>to pay for a record with uncertainty that you will ever get back the > >money > >>you invested and when you will get it back > >> > >>Best wishes > >>Thomas > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >>"Michael Thames" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> am 31.03.2005 18:09:35 > >> > >>An:"lute net" , "Denys Stephens" > >> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "Roman Turovsky" > >> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >>Kopie: > >> > >>Thema: Re: memorization > >> > >>>> I also, happen to know that no record company will invest in > >something > >>>> that won't sell. > >>>Weiss-Barto series sold over 7. > >>>RT > >> > >> I have heard, that Naxos, pays an artist, an up front fee of > >$1400.00 > >>per > >>CD. and no royalties. They figure they will sell 2000, and that's > >it. > >> Your better off doing it at home on your computer with a good > >mic. and > >>marketing them for $15.00 or $ 20.00 a CD rather than $7.95. > >Surely, > >>better > >>for the artist. I wouldn't hesitate to buy Barto's Cd's at that > >price. He > >>would get what he deserves. > >> >
Re: memorization
>You wouldn't sell 7 CDs at $15-$20 per CD. So a >significant number of >people now enjoying Weiss and Barto would not be. > Gary I don't know, but I really think this is the future of recordings. I have friends in the guitar world that are making a small fortune. And will play anywhere for free if they can sell there CD's One can invest $400.00 in soft ware, and buy a couple of good mics. $500.00 each and your in business. With the internet and a good website that takes VISA your in business. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: "gary digman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Friday, April 01, 2005 2:44 AM Subject: Re: memorization > You wouldn't sell 7 CDs at $15-$20 per CD. So a significant number of > people now enjoying Weiss and Barto would not be. > > Gary > > - Original Message - > From: "Michael Thames" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "lute net" ; "Denys Stephens" > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Roman Turovsky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2005 8:09 AM > Subject: Re: memorization > > > >>> I also, happen to know that no record company will invest in something > >>> that won't sell. > >>Weiss-Barto series sold over 7. > >>RT > > > > I have heard, that Naxos, pays an artist, an up front fee of $1400.00 > > per > > CD. and no royalties. They figure they will sell 2000, and that's it. > > Your better off doing it at home on your computer with a good mic. and > > marketing them for $15.00 or $ 20.00 a CD rather than $7.95. Surely, > > better > > for the artist. I wouldn't hesitate to buy Barto's Cd's at that price. He > > would get what he deserves. > > > > > > Michael Thames > > www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com > > - Original Message - > > From: "Roman Turovsky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: "Michael Thames" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "lute net" > > ; "Denys Stephens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2005 8:32 AM > > Subject: Re: memorization > > > > > >> >> Yes, I totally agree So why is Paul Odette's next CD going to > >> >> have > >> >> 3 Bach suites, and one Weiss. Why did Nigel North, record the > >> >> Chaconne > >> > and > >> >> a 4 CD set of all Bach, and one Weiss suite, Edwardo Eg? CD's of all > >> >> Bach? and no Weiss. I'll tell you whyit's marketed to > > guitarist's. > >> >> Not quite. It is a bit more complicated. People record >Bach because > >> >> it > > is > >> >> the grandest achievement of human spirit and there is no >better > > measuring > >> >> tool for our ambitions/qualities. > >> >> Eduardo has an extremely fine CD of Weiss as well, >although his > > affinity > >> >> towards JSB is far greater than for SLW (I have it from >the horse's > >> > mouth). > >> > > >> > No question, I totally agree with you concerning Bach as the ultimate. > >> > I also, happen to know that no record company will invest in something > >> > that won't sell. > >> Weiss-Barto series sold over 7. > >> RT > >> > >> > >> > >> To get on or off this list see list information at > >> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >
RE: Antwort: Re: memorization
>Thomas, I think that most of the expense in putting out a CD comes from marketing the CD, not in physically producing it. Judging from his website, Ed Durbrow does professional level recording in his home. I once had a neighbor who did the same thing (with rock music, unfortunately). I've tried voice (spoken word) recording using a laptop and a TASCAM interface and was surprised at how simple it was (at least on that level - recording instruments is, I'm sure, much more complicated). So the initial expense doesn't have to be huge. But to make enough money to support yourself at even a modest level requires huge sales and the marketing effort to achieve those sales. And that's where the record companies pick and choose. Even in popular music there are more rock bands that sign contracts and make albums than end up in your local record store. Record companies decide which bands will have a market and those are the ones they push. The same thing happens in book publishing. Personally, I find niche online music stores like Magnatune to be very interesting for that reason. They lessen the need for an expensive marketing effort. If your music is being sold online and the web site has been designed and metatagged correctly, interested listeners will find it. My son hasn't bought a physical CD in years, he downloads it all and puts it on his iPod. So if people in early music want to attract a wider audience, that's the way to do it. You won't make a lot of money, but it is a way for music that doesn't have a vast audience to be heard by people who enjoy and appreciate it, and for the musicians to earn at least some money from their efforts. I think it would be better for the LSA to start up something like that than to hold a lute competition, as has been suggested. Although I've enjoyed the Venere Quartet CD that the LSA is selling, I wonder if in the future the LSA might be better off to do things completely online. Tim > > > Original Message >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu >Subject: RE: Antwort: Re: memorization >Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 09:44:05 +0200 > >> >> >> >> >> >>There is also an aspect different to the economical: Naxos has a >world-wide >>marketing and I found his CDs even in the record shop near to my >home town >>(although seldom the newest - I think at the moment they have #4 in >stock). >>And on the economical side: Producing a CD on a professional level >is >>expensive. Lute players usually are not rich and I imagine it would >be hard >>to pay for a record with uncertainty that you will ever get back the >money >>you invested and when you will get it back >> >>Best wishes >>Thomas >> >> >> >> >> >>"Michael Thames" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> am 31.03.2005 18:09:35 >> >>An:"lute net" , "Denys Stephens" >> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "Roman Turovsky" >> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>Kopie: >> >>Thema: Re: memorization >> >>>> I also, happen to know that no record company will invest in >something >>>> that won't sell. >>>Weiss-Barto series sold over 7. >>>RT >> >> I have heard, that Naxos, pays an artist, an up front fee of >$1400.00 >>per >>CD. and no royalties. They figure they will sell 2000, and that's >it. >> Your better off doing it at home on your computer with a good >mic. and >>marketing them for $15.00 or $ 20.00 a CD rather than $7.95. >Surely, >>better >>for the artist. I wouldn't hesitate to buy Barto's Cd's at that >price. He >>would get what he deserves. >> >> >>Michael Thames >>www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com >>- Original Message - >>From: "Roman Turovsky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>To: "Michael Thames" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "lute net" >>; "Denys Stephens" ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2005 8:32 AM >>Subject: Re: memorization >> >> >>> >> Yes, I totally agree So why is Paul Odette's next CD going >to >>have >>> >> 3 Bach suites, and one Weiss. Why did Nigel North, record the >>Chaconne >>> > and >>> >> a 4 CD set of all Bach, and one Weiss suite, Edwardo Eg? CD's >of all >>> >> Bach? and no Weiss. I'll tell you whyit's marketed to >>guitarist's. >>> >> Not quite. It is a bit more complicated. People record >Bach >because >>it >>is >>> >> the grandes
Re: memorization
>Dear All: > Just for the record, Ronn McFarlane has performed >entire concerts from >memory. This has sometimes included some of his own >compositions -- which >of course is an entirely different thing regarding >memorization -- but also >many 16th century classics and his Scottish repertoire. Cheers, >Jim Yes, Ronn played a concert here in Taos about 3 years ago, as I recall he did not use any sheet music. Great concert BTW. I bought 4 CD's. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: "James A Stimson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Michael Thames" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: ; "Stuart LeBlanc" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Friday, April 01, 2005 4:27 AM Subject: Re: memorization > > > > > Dear All: > Just for the record, Ronn McFarlane has performed entire concerts from > memory. This has sometimes included some of his own compositions -- which > of course is an entirely different thing regarding memorization -- but also > many 16th century classics and his Scottish repertoire. > Cheers, > Jim > > To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Antwort: Re: Antwort: Re: memorization
Thomas, By the term "sign off" I simply meant Did Bach give his approval. From what you say then, Bach wrote out the Tablature, or signed his name. Does that include the rest of the pieces that Schouster published as well or just the G minor suite? Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Friday, April 01, 2005 12:50 AM Subject: Antwort: Re: Antwort: Re: memorization > > > > > > I'm not sure I have understood the term "sign off". > The version for Schouster is in Bach's hand and signed "for the lute" and > we know that a certain Schouster was in Leipzig at that time who also > played the lute. The bad thing is that Bach's version require a tone > (contra G) which is not on the common baroque lute of that time. > Falckenhagen has simply put all occurances of this tone up an octave but > many modern editions (for example the one of Stefan Lundgren which I use in > comparision to the versions of Falckenhagen/Weyrauch) require a 14-course > baroque lute. I think Bach's suites are the only one's which make use of a > 14th course (in german baroque - the archlute goes down to F and usually > has 14 courses). > > Thomas > > > > > > "Michael Thames" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> am 31.03.2005 17:54:21 > > An:, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Kopie: > > Thema: Re: Antwort: Re: memorization > > > >The small prelude in c-minor is for lute and the g-minor >suite (pour > >Schouster) is an arrangement of a cello suite for lute by >Bach himself. > >Thomas, >Did Bach actually sign off on the G minor suite? I like to think he > did. > Michael Thames > www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com > - Original Message - > From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: > Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2005 4:41 AM > Subject: Antwort: Re: memorization > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The small prelude in c-minor is for lute and the g-minor suite (pour > > Schouster) is an arrangement of a cello suite for lute by Bach himself. > All > > other works are either uncertain or surely not meant for the lute. > > This mainly has to do with a mistake in the first complete edition where > > pieces for the "Lautenwerck" were catagorised as "lute works" (sorry - > I'm > > working from memory). > > There are some contemporary arrangements by Falckenhagen and Weyrauch > > (c-minor suite, g-minor suite and the fuga BWV1000) > > > > This all was discussed here several times > > Best wishes > > Thomas > > > > > > > > > > > > "gary digman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> am 31.03.2005 13:31:37 > > > > An:"Michael Thames" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Kopie: > > > > Thema: Re: memorization > > > > Bach never wrote anything for lute??? > > > > Gary Digman > > > > - Original Message - > > From: "Michael Thames" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: "lute net" ; "Denys Stephens" > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 6:32 PM > > Subject: Re: memorization > > > > > > > Stephan wrote, > > >>Segovia (whom I admire greatly) did much to establish >the form and > > >>content > > >>of the guitar recital format, which included playing from >memory, but > it > > > has > > >>to be said that the content of his performances was >predictable. > > >>There are only so many times that you want to hear the >Bach Chaconne, > > the > > >>Villa Lobos preludes and so on before your ears glaze >over > > > > > > Yes, I totally agree So why is Paul Odette's next CD going to > > > have > > > 3 Bach suites, and one Weiss. Why did Nigel North, record the Chaconne > > > and > > > a 4 CD set of all Bach, and one Weiss suite, Edwardo Egez 2 CD's of > all > > > Bach? and no Weiss. I'll tell you whyit's marketed to > guitarist's. > > > All this for an instrument Bach never wrote anything for in the first > > > place, all transcriptions, just like the guitar. > > > Michael Thames > > > www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com > > > - Original Message - > > > From: "Denys Stephens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > To: "lute net" > > > Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 4:01 PM > > > Subject: Re: m
Re: Antwort: Re: Antwort: Re: memorization
Dear Thomas and All: I play a couple of my own arrangements (Handel, Scarlatti) that require a low G. I just tune my 13th course to G. Scarlatti's music in particular uses octave leaps and other gestures in the low bass register to great effect. They can be reproduced effectively with a baroque lute in a way that is impossible on the six-string guitar. Cheers, Jim To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: memorization
Dear All: Just for the record, Ronn McFarlane has performed entire concerts from memory. This has sometimes included some of his own compositions -- which of course is an entirely different thing regarding memorization -- but also many 16th century classics and his Scottish repertoire. Cheers, Jim To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: memorization
You wouldn't sell 7 CDs at $15-$20 per CD. So a significant number of people now enjoying Weiss and Barto would not be. Gary - Original Message - From: "Michael Thames" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "lute net" ; "Denys Stephens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Roman Turovsky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2005 8:09 AM Subject: Re: memorization >>> I also, happen to know that no record company will invest in something >>> that won't sell. >>Weiss-Barto series sold over 7. >>RT > > I have heard, that Naxos, pays an artist, an up front fee of $1400.00 > per > CD. and no royalties. They figure they will sell 2000, and that's it. > Your better off doing it at home on your computer with a good mic. and > marketing them for $15.00 or $ 20.00 a CD rather than $7.95. Surely, > better > for the artist. I wouldn't hesitate to buy Barto's Cd's at that price. He > would get what he deserves. > > > Michael Thames > www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com > - Original Message - > From: "Roman Turovsky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "Michael Thames" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "lute net" > ; "Denys Stephens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2005 8:32 AM > Subject: Re: memorization > > >> >> Yes, I totally agree So why is Paul Odette's next CD going to >> >> have >> >> 3 Bach suites, and one Weiss. Why did Nigel North, record the >> >> Chaconne >> > and >> >> a 4 CD set of all Bach, and one Weiss suite, Edwardo Eg? CD's of all >> >> Bach? and no Weiss. I'll tell you whyit's marketed to > guitarist's. >> >> Not quite. It is a bit more complicated. People record >Bach because >> >> it > is >> >> the grandest achievement of human spirit and there is no >better > measuring >> >> tool for our ambitions/qualities. >> >> Eduardo has an extremely fine CD of Weiss as well, >although his > affinity >> >> towards JSB is far greater than for SLW (I have it from >the horse's >> > mouth). >> > >> > No question, I totally agree with you concerning Bach as the ultimate. >> > I also, happen to know that no record company will invest in something >> > that won't sell. >> Weiss-Barto series sold over 7. >> RT >> >> >> >> To get on or off this list see list information at >> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >> > > > >
Re: memorization/Re: Gallot speaks...
Marion wrote: >I don't believe it is necessary to have a lot of theoretical knowledge >though. If you can explain it to your self you are analyzing. A teacher >once told me, 'analysis is making the best case for the piece.' It >may be as simple >as describing it in mundane terms: it goes up the scale here, has >block chords here and then comes to a cadence. Maybe we had the same teacher Marion! I remember my composition teacher, Will Johnson saying exactly that. I think this kind of analysis is very useful for memorization and 'organic' because you are applying your own terms which may be most meaningful to you. >Spatial memory:1 This is very important if you have more than one >lute. There are few other instruments where the physical dimensions >vary so radically from instrument to instrument. Finding the bass >strings on a Baroque lute and landing on familiar chord shapes in the >left hand would be examples of spatial memory. > >++How does this differ from motor memory? Aren't both about spatially >where you put your fingers? Maybe it does not include the time aspect. >Motor implies motion which includes space and time. Maybe spatial >memory is more static. What is your idea on that? I see it as, well, a spatial thing. For example, Paul Odette can pick up any lute, play a few chords and then play whatever on it, whereas I still can't get used to the difference in spacing between my Ren and Baroque lute after years. I still often miss because the sixth string on my B. lute is about where the fifth would be on my Ren lute. This would apply to sight reading, though no memorization of music was required. Motor memorization on the other hand would be that memorization that tells the fingers where to go next in order to play a piece. For example, you can play the same memorized piece on a little lute or a big lute and your fingers know which frets to go to. Finding and landing on the frets and strings would be an application of the spatial memory. That's my take on it. cheers, -- Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: memorization
To paraphrase William "Count" Basie, 'I do what I like to do. If I'm competent, that's great. If not, I'm doing what I like to do." Gary - Original Message - From: "Michael Thames" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "gary digman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2005 7:56 AM Subject: Re: memorization > >The only reason for doing anything is the love of doing it. > >> Gary Digman > > Only in a perfect world. > > Michael Thames > www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com > - Original Message - > From: "gary digman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "Michael Thames" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Cc: > Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2005 4:35 AM > Subject: Re: memorization > > >> The only reason for doing anything is the love of doing it. >> >> Gary Digman >> >> - Original Message - >> From: "Michael Thames" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> To: "lute net" ; "Denys Stephens" >> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Roman Turovsky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 9:18 PM >> Subject: Re: memorization >> >> >> >> Yes, I totally agree So why is Paul Odette's next CD going to >> >> have >> >> 3 Bach suites, and one Weiss. Why did Nigel North, record the >> >> Chaconne >> > and >> >> a 4 CD set of all Bach, and one Weiss suite, Edwardo Egüez 2 CD's of >> >> all >> >> Bach? and no Weiss. I'll tell you whyit's marketed to > guitarist's. >> >>Not quite. It is a bit more complicated. People record >Bach because it > is >> >>the grandest achievement of human spirit and there is no >better > measuring >> >>tool for our ambitions/qualities. >> >>Eduardo has an extremely fine CD of Weiss as well, >although his > affinity >> >>towards JSB is far greater than for SLW (I have it from >the horse's >> > mouth). >> > >> > No question, I totally agree with you concerning Bach as the > ultimate. >> > I also, happen to know that no record company will invest in > something >> > that won't sell. They often times will tell the performer what, and >> > what >> > not >> > to play. Record companies are not doing so well these days. Bach >> > sells. >> > There are as of last count 6 billion people in the world, out of 6 >> > billion >> > maybe 100 million people play guitar in some way or another, and maybe >> > 3000 >> > play the lute. you do the math. >> > Michael Thames >> > www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com >> > - Original Message - >> > From: "Roman Turovsky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> > To: "Michael Thames" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "lute net" >> > ; "Denys Stephens" >> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> > Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 9:05 PM >> > Subject: Re: memorization >> > >> > >> >> > Stephan wrote, >> >> >> Segovia (whom I admire greatly) did much to establish >the form and >> > content >> >> >> of the guitar recital format, which included playing from >memory, > but >> > it >> >> > has >> >> >> to be said that the content of his performances was >predictable. >> >> >> There are only so many times that you want to hear the >Bach > Chaconne, >> > the >> >> >> Villa Lobos preludes and so on before your ears glaze >over >> >> > >> >> > Yes, I totally agree So why is Paul Odette's next CD going to > have >> >> > 3 Bach suites, and one Weiss. Why did Nigel North, record the > Chaconne >> > and >> >> > a 4 CD set of all Bach, and one Weiss suite, Edwardo Egüez 2 CD's > of >> > all >> >> > Bach? and no Weiss. I'll tell you whyit's marketed to >> >> > guitarist's. >> >> Not quite. It is a bit more complicated. People record Bach because it > is >> >> the grandest achievement of human spirit and there is no better > measuring >> >> tool for our ambitions/qualities. >> >> Eduardo has an extremely fine CD of Weiss as well, although his > affinity >> >> towards JSB is far greater than for SLW (I have it from the horse's >> > mouth). >> >> He also recorded De Visee, equally beautifully. >> >> >> >> > All this for an instrument Bach never wrote anything for in the >> >> > first >> >> > place, all transcriptions, just like the guitar. >> >> > Michael Thames >> >> All Bach is a transcription, just because it is absolute music and no >> >> instrument could do it absolute justice. >> >> RT >> >> >> >> http://polyhymnion.org >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> To get on or off this list see list information at >> >> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >> >> >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> >> > > >
Antwort: Re: Antwort: Re: memorization
I'm not sure I have understood the term "sign off". The version for Schouster is in Bach's hand and signed "for the lute" and we know that a certain Schouster was in Leipzig at that time who also played the lute. The bad thing is that Bach's version require a tone (contra G) which is not on the common baroque lute of that time. Falckenhagen has simply put all occurances of this tone up an octave but many modern editions (for example the one of Stefan Lundgren which I use in comparision to the versions of Falckenhagen/Weyrauch) require a 14-course baroque lute. I think Bach's suites are the only one's which make use of a 14th course (in german baroque - the archlute goes down to F and usually has 14 courses). Thomas "Michael Thames" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> am 31.03.2005 17:54:21 An:, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Kopie: Thema: Re: Antwort: Re: memorization >The small prelude in c-minor is for lute and the g-minor >suite (pour >Schouster) is an arrangement of a cello suite for lute by >Bach himself. Thomas, Did Bach actually sign off on the G minor suite? I like to think he did. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2005 4:41 AM Subject: Antwort: Re: memorization > > > > > > The small prelude in c-minor is for lute and the g-minor suite (pour > Schouster) is an arrangement of a cello suite for lute by Bach himself. All > other works are either uncertain or surely not meant for the lute. > This mainly has to do with a mistake in the first complete edition where > pieces for the "Lautenwerck" were catagorised as "lute works" (sorry - I'm > working from memory). > There are some contemporary arrangements by Falckenhagen and Weyrauch > (c-minor suite, g-minor suite and the fuga BWV1000) > > This all was discussed here several times > Best wishes > Thomas > > > > > > "gary digman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> am 31.03.2005 13:31:37 > > An:"Michael Thames" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Kopie: > > Thema: Re: memorization > > Bach never wrote anything for lute??? > > Gary Digman > > - Original Message - > From: "Michael Thames" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "lute net" ; "Denys Stephens" > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 6:32 PM > Subject: Re: memorization > > > > Stephan wrote, > >>Segovia (whom I admire greatly) did much to establish >the form and > >>content > >>of the guitar recital format, which included playing from >memory, but it > > has > >>to be said that the content of his performances was >predictable. > >>There are only so many times that you want to hear the >Bach Chaconne, > the > >>Villa Lobos preludes and so on before your ears glaze >over > > > > Yes, I totally agree So why is Paul Odette's next CD going to > > have > > 3 Bach suites, and one Weiss. Why did Nigel North, record the Chaconne > > and > > a 4 CD set of all Bach, and one Weiss suite, Edwardo Egez 2 CD's of all > > Bach? and no Weiss. I'll tell you whyit's marketed to guitarist's. > > All this for an instrument Bach never wrote anything for in the first > > place, all transcriptions, just like the guitar. > > Michael Thames > > www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com > > - Original Message - > > From: "Denys Stephens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: "lute net" > > Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 4:01 PM > > Subject: Re: memorization > > > > > >> Dear Michael, > >> > >> You wrote: > >> > >> "I wonder if lute concerts will ever be on the level of guitar concerts > >> where lutenist's have the proper professional stage presence to not be > >> staring at their music all the time. This might give them more appeal > to > >> the general concert going public, and more acceptance by guitarist's. I > >> always felt a little jiped when a guitarist would play a concert sight > >> reading the whole thing, I thought they didn't spend enough time > learning > >> the music." > >> > >> Funnily enough I don't take great exception to this, although it baffles > > me > >> as to why you would want to be in the company of lutenists if you think > >> so > >> little of our ability as performers! > >> > >> The paths of lutenists and guitarists diverge
Antwort: Re: memorization
There is also an aspect different to the economical: Naxos has a world-wide marketing and I found his CDs even in the record shop near to my home town (although seldom the newest - I think at the moment they have #4 in stock). And on the economical side: Producing a CD on a professional level is expensive. Lute players usually are not rich and I imagine it would be hard to pay for a record with uncertainty that you will ever get back the money you invested and when you will get it back Best wishes Thomas "Michael Thames" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> am 31.03.2005 18:09:35 An:"lute net" , "Denys Stephens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "Roman Turovsky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Kopie: Thema: Re: memorization >> I also, happen to know that no record company will invest in something >> that won't sell. >Weiss-Barto series sold over 7. >RT I have heard, that Naxos, pays an artist, an up front fee of $1400.00 per CD. and no royalties. They figure they will sell 2000, and that's it. Your better off doing it at home on your computer with a good mic. and marketing them for $15.00 or $ 20.00 a CD rather than $7.95. Surely, better for the artist. I wouldn't hesitate to buy Barto's Cd's at that price. He would get what he deserves. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: "Roman Turovsky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Michael Thames" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "lute net" ; "Denys Stephens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2005 8:32 AM Subject: Re: memorization > >> Yes, I totally agree So why is Paul Odette's next CD going to have > >> 3 Bach suites, and one Weiss. Why did Nigel North, record the Chaconne > > and > >> a 4 CD set of all Bach, and one Weiss suite, Edwardo Eg? CD's of all > >> Bach? and no Weiss. I'll tell you whyit's marketed to guitarist's. > >> Not quite. It is a bit more complicated. People record >Bach because it is > >> the grandest achievement of human spirit and there is no >better measuring > >> tool for our ambitions/qualities. > >> Eduardo has an extremely fine CD of Weiss as well, >although his affinity > >> towards JSB is far greater than for SLW (I have it from >the horse's > > mouth). > > > > No question, I totally agree with you concerning Bach as the ultimate. > > I also, happen to know that no record company will invest in something > > that won't sell. > Weiss-Barto series sold over 7. > RT > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > CONFIDENTIALITY : This e-mail and any attachments are confidential and may be privileged. If you are not a named recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to another person, use it for any purpose or store or copy the information in any medium.
Antwort: Re: memorization
There are much more people buying lutemusic than lute players. Actually lute players are the minority of buyers. My personal experience tells it and this is shared by several other players I know. Best wishes Thomas "Michael Thames" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> am 31.03.2005 21:29:26 An:"Roman Turovsky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "lute net" , "Denys Stephens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Kopie: Thema: Re: memorization >That was before #6. >RT Sorry, I figured everyone who was going to buy #6 all ready did. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: "Roman Turovsky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Michael Thames" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "lute net" ; "Denys Stephens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2005 12:48 PM Subject: Re: memorization > >>> Weiss-Barto series sold over 7. > >>> RT > >> Is that 70,000, or 7000? > >>> The FORMER. > >>> RT > > So then, thats actually very good news. So, 70,000 divided by 6 volumes > > equals 11,600 each volume, half lutenist lets sat bought them and half > > others. Could it then be there are actually 5000 lutenist in the world? > > > > Michael Thames > That was before #6. > RT > > > > > Subject: Re: memorization > > > > > >>>> Weiss-Barto series sold over 7. > >>>> RT > >>> Is that 70,000, or 7000? > >> The FORMER. > >> RT > >> > >> > >>> > >>> > >>>>>> Yes, I totally agree So why is Paul Odette's next CD going to > > have > >>>>>> 3 Bach suites, and one Weiss. Why did Nigel North, record the > > Chaconne > >>>>> and > >>>>>> a 4 CD set of all Bach, and one Weiss suite, Edwardo Eg? CD's of all > >>>>>> Bach? and no Weiss. I'll tell you whyit's marketed to > >>> guitarist's. > >>>>>> Not quite. It is a bit more complicated. People record >Bach because > > it > >>> is > >>>>>> the grandest achievement of human spirit and there is no >better > >>> measuring > >>>>>> tool for our ambitions/qualities. > >>>>>> Eduardo has an extremely fine CD of Weiss as well, >although his > >>> affinity > >>>>>> towards JSB is far greater than for SLW (I have it from >the horse's > >>>>> mouth). > >>>>> > >>>>> No question, I totally agree with you concerning Bach as the ultimate. > >>>>> I also, happen to know that no record company will invest in something > >>>>> that won't sell. > >>>> Weiss-Barto series sold over 7. > >>>> RT > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > CONFIDENTIALITY : This e-mail and any attachments are confidential and may be privileged. If you are not a named recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to another person, use it for any purpose or store or copy the information in any medium.
Re: memorization/Re: Gallot speaks...
As one who has experienced all sorts of memory over 70 years I'll say that Ed's analysis is technically correct (although I'd disagree with the muscle memory being the most dangerous, it has saved my butt a number of times on the ski slope - but an aerial recovery from an unseen bump isn't the same as playing a fixed piece of music - so regarding music he is accurate). But, as I'm still a newbie, I wonder about the nature of the pieces (and this is a question, not a statement). I've not yet branched out into Baroque lute - and I gather from the messages on the list that they are more of a "set piece" style with several instruments playing. But regarding the renaissance lute it was on this list that I learned that "divisions" are actually almost a form of ornamentation - at least that is the way I'm looking at them for the moment. The pieces in my limited collection (from McFarlane's Scots Lute, Damiano's Method, and the kindness of many of you who have posted pieces on the web which now fill a notebook of printouts) all seem to have the characteristic of divisions as variations. A repeated theme, sometimes quite short, with variations. Perhaps my analysis of that era is wrong, but if right it would seem that the memorization need only be the theme and that the variations could vary, and yet fit with the continuo or the other instruments. It raises the question as to whether the written music of those days really reflects the play, or merely the composer's guides to his piece that he might have varied himself. Unlike the full orchestral scores of a bit later the instruments might have been played more freely. This is speculation, and I bow to the more knowlegeable. But I wonder if the aural memory, combined with a good feeling for the scales and harmonys, might be the best memorization for the lute. The sense of the song may be just the way the old boys played. Best, Jon To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: memorization
Dear Joseph, Yes, I own to pushing my luck a bit! But the numbers are impressive nonetheless. I didn't mean, incidentally, not to have a level playing field: one could either count only the pieces specific to each instrument, which would give one result, or add in the legitimate music aquired from other sources, which would give another. If one follows the latter school of thought there is a line of reasoning which would say that the entire lute repertoire is the natural heritage of the guitar and legitimate guitar music. That would blow me out of the water completely! But I am sure that you are too much of a gentleman to do that :-) Best wishes, Denys - Original Message - From: "Joseph Mayes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Denys Stephens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "lute net" Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2005 10:09 PM Subject: Re: memorization > Dear Denys > > Thank you for your cordial response, but it raises as many questions as > it answers - more or less. (see below) > > > On 3/31/05 3:20 PM, "Denys Stephens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > Dear Joseph, > > I think that's a fair challenge! > > > > I don't have the week or two spare that it would take to do the job > > thoroughly, but we could make some guestimates: > > > > Howard Mayer Brown lists over 300 printed books of > > lute music up to 1600 in his bibliography. Multiply that by > > a conservative estimate of 30 pieces per volume and you > > get 9000 pieces - there's a bit of double counting in there, > > but not a bad start. > I would say, looking at tables of concordances, etc. that the ammount of > double counting is huge! > > Julia Craig McFeely lists 52 sources > > of English Renaissance repertoire (mainly manuscripts) in her > > online dissertation -multiply that by an average of 40 pieces per > > volume and you would get another 2000 pieces. Some duplication > > of course - this is only broad brush. I have left out earlier Italian > > manuscripts, which would be a much smaller number of pieces. > > "some duplication?" I would say much duplication. This is tantamount to > counting every separate edition of Leyenda as another piece. Let me put this > in a bit more perspective: Johann Kaspar Mertz composed into the 300s in > opus numbers. Many of those opera contain 12 to 20 pieces, all of which are > as original and as interesting as "My Lady Hundson's Puffe." JK Mertz is > only one of many 19th C. composers for the guitar. Add to that huge number > of unique works the composers from the 20th C. in Europe, Asia, Latin > America, and The United States. > > > > Where things start to get interesting is where we draw the boundaries: > > If one were to omit everything from the guitar repertoire that was > > not specifically written for the modern instrument its size would reduce > > drastically. On the other hand, if you include in the lute repertoire all of > > the Renaissance choral music that can legitimately be intabulated for it > > (as 16c. performance practice) then the volume of lute music rises > > exponentially. > > Now we have a problem. You would deny the guitar all transcriptions and > rather than do the same for the lute - that means about half of Francesco's > output. You want to include choral works that haven't yet been > transcribed(?) it's OK for the 16th C. on lute because it was the > performance practice - then why is it not OK for the guitar for the same > reason? > > > And we have not broached the subject of Baroque lute music, which I am > > not greatly familiar with and will leave to others to comment if they wish. > > > > It was not my intention to draw comparisons of musical value over > > the volume of repertoire issue, but rather to suggest that the volume > > of lute music tends to make lutenists move around from one sub-group > > of repertoire to another. That's one of the reasons why I don't > > want to memorise all of the music I play. > > I agree to a point. One of the short comings of classical guitarists has > been their inability to read. This is changing in recent years, but has a > long way to go. But one of the areas that the guitar must claim predominance > is variety. Renaissance lute players play music of the renaissance. Baroque > lute players play music of the baroque. Classical guitarists play music of > the renaissance, baroque, classical, romantic, 20th C., 21st. C. Latin etc. > All aspects of geographical sub groups are the same. This is not the reason > that guitarists memorize. They memorize because it is the tradition. Some > musicians r
Re: memorization
> >> Yes, I totally agree So why is Paul Odette's next CD going to have > >> 3 Bach suites, and one Weiss. Why did Nigel North, record the Chaconne > > and > >> a 4 CD set of all Bach, and one Weiss suite, Edwardo Eg? If, as I guess, "Edwardo Eg?" is Eduardo Eguez, he has recorded so far Bach (2 CDs), Weiss (1 CD) (yes, "E lucean le stelle" it is not worldwide distributed) and De Visée (1 CD). PD CD's of all > >> Bach? and no Weiss. I'll tell you whyit's marketed to guitarist's. > >> Not quite. It is a bit more complicated. People record >Bach because it is > >> the grandest achievement of human spirit and there is no >better measuring > >> tool for our ambitions/qualities. > >> Eduardo has an extremely fine CD of Weiss as well, >although his affinity > >> towards JSB is far greater than for SLW (I have it from >the horse's > > mouth). > > > > No question, I totally agree with you concerning Bach as the ultimate. > > I also, happen to know that no record company will invest in something > > that won't sell. > Weiss-Barto series sold over 7. > RT > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > Navighi a 2 MEGA e i primi 3 mesi sono GRATIS. Scegli Libero Adsl Flat senza limiti su http://www.libero.it
Re: memorization
>I don't know whether they meet today's standard of >"professionalism," but a few of them include: Etc. Etc. Each one of these artist's have performed concerts relying only on their memory as well. You can't say the same for lutenist's. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: "Stuart LeBlanc" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2005 5:30 PM Subject: RE: memorization > > I don't know whether they meet today's standard of "professionalism," but a few > of the people who I've see perform with a score in front of them include: > > David Starobin > Julian Bream > Yo-Yo Ma > Itzakh Perlman > Daniel Barenboim > Maurizio Pollini > Richard Stoltzman > Jean-Pierre Rampal > Juilliard Quartet > Emerson Quartet > James Levine > Pierre Boulez > etc. > > > -Original Message- > From: Roman Turovsky [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2005 9:29 AM > To: Joseph Mayes; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; > lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > Subject: Re: memorization > > > >> This is really a very interesting thread! I memorize pieces for solo > >> performance, and sight read (duo, or whatever) ensemble pieces. I find that > >> memorization actually gives me much more freedom in interpretation, from one > >> performance to the next. I memorize the notes, not the way I play them. The > >> guitar > >> repertoire is as vast as that of the lute; it's not like we have to just > >> learn > >> a few "masterpieces" and then begin our world tours. For the audience, I > >> think concerts are like "theatre". To sit down and play with nothing between > >> you > >> and them but your instrument, probably seems a bit magical. Imagine going to > >> a production of Shakespeare, or an opera, and having the cast walk out with > >> notebooks to recite their lines from, or remind them of the lyrics... > >> > >> James > >> > I am reminded of a Svyatoslav Richter quote, where he said that the dreaded > habit of playing from memory only permits one Haydn sonata per recital, > while the sightreading would have permitted half a dozen, and he would have > loved to be able to do that. > RT > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > >
RE: memorization
I don't know whether they meet today's standard of "professionalism," but a few of the people who I've see perform with a score in front of them include: David Starobin Julian Bream Yo-Yo Ma Itzakh Perlman Daniel Barenboim Maurizio Pollini Richard Stoltzman Jean-Pierre Rampal Juilliard Quartet Emerson Quartet James Levine Pierre Boulez etc. -Original Message- From: Roman Turovsky [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2005 9:29 AM To: Joseph Mayes; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: Re: memorization >> This is really a very interesting thread! I memorize pieces for solo >> performance, and sight read (duo, or whatever) ensemble pieces. I find that >> memorization actually gives me much more freedom in interpretation, from one >> performance to the next. I memorize the notes, not the way I play them. The >> guitar >> repertoire is as vast as that of the lute; it's not like we have to just >> learn >> a few "masterpieces" and then begin our world tours. For the audience, I >> think concerts are like "theatre". To sit down and play with nothing between >> you >> and them but your instrument, probably seems a bit magical. Imagine going to >> a production of Shakespeare, or an opera, and having the cast walk out with >> notebooks to recite their lines from, or remind them of the lyrics... >> >> James >> I am reminded of a Svyatoslav Richter quote, where he said that the dreaded habit of playing from memory only permits one Haydn sonata per recital, while the sightreading would have permitted half a dozen, and he would have loved to be able to do that. RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: memorization
Dear Denys Thank you for your cordial response, but it raises as many questions as it answers - more or less. (see below) On 3/31/05 3:20 PM, "Denys Stephens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Dear Joseph, > I think that's a fair challenge! > > I don't have the week or two spare that it would take to do the job > thoroughly, but we could make some guestimates: > > Howard Mayer Brown lists over 300 printed books of > lute music up to 1600 in his bibliography. Multiply that by > a conservative estimate of 30 pieces per volume and you > get 9000 pieces - there's a bit of double counting in there, > but not a bad start. I would say, looking at tables of concordances, etc. that the ammount of double counting is huge! Julia Craig McFeely lists 52 sources > of English Renaissance repertoire (mainly manuscripts) in her > online dissertation -multiply that by an average of 40 pieces per > volume and you would get another 2000 pieces. Some duplication > of course - this is only broad brush. I have left out earlier Italian > manuscripts, which would be a much smaller number of pieces. "some duplication?" I would say much duplication. This is tantamount to counting every separate edition of Leyenda as another piece. Let me put this in a bit more perspective: Johann Kaspar Mertz composed into the 300s in opus numbers. Many of those opera contain 12 to 20 pieces, all of which are as original and as interesting as "My Lady Hundson's Puffe." JK Mertz is only one of many 19th C. composers for the guitar. Add to that huge number of unique works the composers from the 20th C. in Europe, Asia, Latin America, and The United States. > > Where things start to get interesting is where we draw the boundaries: > If one were to omit everything from the guitar repertoire that was > not specifically written for the modern instrument its size would reduce > drastically. On the other hand, if you include in the lute repertoire all of > the Renaissance choral music that can legitimately be intabulated for it > (as 16c. performance practice) then the volume of lute music rises > exponentially. Now we have a problem. You would deny the guitar all transcriptions and rather than do the same for the lute - that means about half of Francesco's output. You want to include choral works that haven't yet been transcribed(?) it's OK for the 16th C. on lute because it was the performance practice - then why is it not OK for the guitar for the same reason? > And we have not broached the subject of Baroque lute music, which I am > not greatly familiar with and will leave to others to comment if they wish. > > It was not my intention to draw comparisons of musical value over > the volume of repertoire issue, but rather to suggest that the volume > of lute music tends to make lutenists move around from one sub-group > of repertoire to another. That's one of the reasons why I don't > want to memorise all of the music I play. I agree to a point. One of the short comings of classical guitarists has been their inability to read. This is changing in recent years, but has a long way to go. But one of the areas that the guitar must claim predominance is variety. Renaissance lute players play music of the renaissance. Baroque lute players play music of the baroque. Classical guitarists play music of the renaissance, baroque, classical, romantic, 20th C., 21st. C. Latin etc. All aspects of geographical sub groups are the same. This is not the reason that guitarists memorize. They memorize because it is the tradition. Some musicians read from music when they play - like string players, some memorize - like pianists. Guitarists also memorize because they can't read. > > I still love to hear the guitar played well and admire the musicianship > of accomplished guitarists. But we should surely judge performance > on the quality of the music? The original issue here was the predjudice > that playing from memory is inately superior to playing with the > aide-memoire of the written music at hand. The truth must surely be > that there are sublime performances to be heard from lutenists playing > from their music and uninspiring ones from guitarists playing from memory. > And vice-versa in equal measure! We absolutely agree. Or as (I think it was) Duke Ellington once said, "There are two kinds of music - good music and bad music." Best regards Joseph > > > To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: memorization
Dear Joseph, I think that's a fair challenge! I don't have the week or two spare that it would take to do the job thoroughly, but we could make some guestimates: Howard Mayer Brown lists over 300 printed books of lute music up to 1600 in his bibliography. Multiply that by a conservative estimate of 30 pieces per volume and you get 9000 pieces - there's a bit of double counting in there, but not a bad start. Julia Craig McFeely lists 52 sources of English Renaissance repertoire (mainly manuscripts) in her online dissertation -multiply that by an average of 40 pieces per volume and you would get another 2000 pieces. Some duplication of course - this is only broad brush. I have left out earlier Italian manuscripts, which would be a much smaller number of pieces. Where things start to get interesting is where we draw the boundaries: If one were to omit everything from the guitar repertoire that was not specifically written for the modern instrument its size would reduce drastically. On the other hand, if you include in the lute repertoire all of the Renaissance choral music that can legitimately be intabulated for it (as 16c. performance practice) then the volume of lute music rises exponentially. And we have not broached the subject of Baroque lute music, which I am not greatly familiar with and will leave to others to comment if they wish. It was not my intention to draw comparisons of musical value over the volume of repertoire issue, but rather to suggest that the volume of lute music tends to make lutenists move around from one sub-group of repertoire to another. That's one of the reasons why I don't want to memorise all of the music I play. I still love to hear the guitar played well and admire the musicianship of accomplished guitarists. But we should surely judge performance on the quality of the music? The original issue here was the predjudice that playing from memory is inately superior to playing with the aide-memoire of the written music at hand. The truth must surely be that there are sublime performances to be heard from lutenists playing from their music and uninspiring ones from guitarists playing from memory. And vice-versa in equal measure! Best wishes, Denys - Original Message - From: "Joseph Mayes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Denys Stephens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "lute net" Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2005 2:52 PM Subject: Re: memorization > Dear Denys > > I have heard the claim - only from lute players - that the lute > repertoire is much larger than that of the classical guitar. This seems to > be accepted as undisputed fact - again, only by lute players. > > I have been immersed in both worlds now for over 40 years, I have been > paying close attention, I am not in any way hampered by some bias one way or > the other - and I do not see it that way at all. > > I think, without any basis in solid research, that there's more guitar > music just from the 19th century than there is lute music in total. To cast > modern guitarists in the same mold as Segovia in terms of repertoire is just > short sighted. The man died almost 20 years ago. > > If a guitarist already knew all of the music for his instrument - > including the art songs, guitar ensemble music, duos, concerti, etudes, etc. > - he couldn't possibly keep up with the music that is being published every > day. > > I would like some definite information on the true extent of the lute > rep. I hear, for instance about the English "Golden Age." How many printed > sources? 4? 5? How many manuscripts, and in those ms. How many pieces that > are repeated. > > The "lack of repertoire" has nothing to do with the lessening of the > number of guitar recitals. There are fewer recitals of any kind than there > were 20 years ago. Or do you think that the piano, for instance, also > suffers from the same lack? > > I don't mean to sound like I am angrily defending the classical guitar - > I don't think it needs my defense - I just would like some clarification to > what seems to me to be an unbelievable conclusion. > > Regards, > > Joseph Mayes > > > On 3/30/05 6:01 PM, "Denys Stephens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > Dear Michael, > > > > You wrote: > > > > "I wonder if lute concerts will ever be on the level of guitar concerts > > where lutenist's have the proper professional stage presence to not be > > staring at their music all the time. This might give them more appeal to > > the general concert going public, and more acceptance by guitarist's. I > > always felt a little jiped when a guitarist would play a concert sight > > reading the whole thing, I thought they didn
Re: memorization
>That was before #6. >RT Sorry, I figured everyone who was going to buy #6 all ready did. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: "Roman Turovsky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Michael Thames" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "lute net" ; "Denys Stephens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2005 12:48 PM Subject: Re: memorization > >>> Weiss-Barto series sold over 7. > >>> RT > >> Is that 70,000, or 7000? > >>> The FORMER. > >>> RT > > So then, thats actually very good news. So, 70,000 divided by 6 volumes > > equals 11,600 each volume, half lutenist lets sat bought them and half > > others. Could it then be there are actually 5000 lutenist in the world? > > > > Michael Thames > That was before #6. > RT > > > > > Subject: Re: memorization > > > > > >>>> Weiss-Barto series sold over 7. > >>>> RT > >>> Is that 70,000, or 7000? > >> The FORMER. > >> RT > >> > >> > >>> > >>> > >>>>>> Yes, I totally agree So why is Paul Odette's next CD going to > > have > >>>>>> 3 Bach suites, and one Weiss. Why did Nigel North, record the > > Chaconne > >>>>> and > >>>>>> a 4 CD set of all Bach, and one Weiss suite, Edwardo Eg? CD's of all > >>>>>> Bach? and no Weiss. I'll tell you whyit's marketed to > >>> guitarist's. > >>>>>> Not quite. It is a bit more complicated. People record >Bach because > > it > >>> is > >>>>>> the grandest achievement of human spirit and there is no >better > >>> measuring > >>>>>> tool for our ambitions/qualities. > >>>>>> Eduardo has an extremely fine CD of Weiss as well, >although his > >>> affinity > >>>>>> towards JSB is far greater than for SLW (I have it from >the horse's > >>>>> mouth). > >>>>> > >>>>> No question, I totally agree with you concerning Bach as the ultimate. > >>>>> I also, happen to know that no record company will invest in something > >>>>> that won't sell. > >>>> Weiss-Barto series sold over 7. > >>>> RT > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > >
Re: memorization
>>> Weiss-Barto series sold over 7. >>> RT >> Is that 70,000, or 7000? >>> The FORMER. >>> RT > So then, thats actually very good news. So, 70,000 divided by 6 volumes > equals 11,600 each volume, half lutenist lets sat bought them and half > others. Could it then be there are actually 5000 lutenist in the world? > > Michael Thames That was before #6. RT > Subject: Re: memorization > > >>>> Weiss-Barto series sold over 7. >>>> RT >>> Is that 70,000, or 7000? >> The FORMER. >> RT >> >> >>> >>> >>>>>> Yes, I totally agree So why is Paul Odette's next CD going to > have >>>>>> 3 Bach suites, and one Weiss. Why did Nigel North, record the > Chaconne >>>>> and >>>>>> a 4 CD set of all Bach, and one Weiss suite, Edwardo Eg? CD's of all >>>>>> Bach? and no Weiss. I'll tell you whyit's marketed to >>> guitarist's. >>>>>> Not quite. It is a bit more complicated. People record >Bach because > it >>> is >>>>>> the grandest achievement of human spirit and there is no >better >>> measuring >>>>>> tool for our ambitions/qualities. >>>>>> Eduardo has an extremely fine CD of Weiss as well, >although his >>> affinity >>>>>> towards JSB is far greater than for SLW (I have it from >the horse's >>>>> mouth). >>>>> >>>>> No question, I totally agree with you concerning Bach as the ultimate. >>>>> I also, happen to know that no record company will invest in something >>>>> that won't sell. >>>> Weiss-Barto series sold over 7. >>>> RT >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> >> > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: memorization
>>> Weiss-Barto series sold over 7. >>> RT >> Is that 70,000, or 7000? >>> The FORMER. >>> RT > So then, thats actually very good news. So, 70,000 divided by 6 volumes > equals 11,600 each volume, half lutenist lets sat bought them and half > others. Could it then be there are actually 5000 lutenist in the world? I tried estimating once and came up with 6000, based on the new lute production rate. RT > Subject: Re: memorization > > >>>> Weiss-Barto series sold over 7. >>>> RT >>> Is that 70,000, or 7000? >> The FORMER. >> RT >> >> >>> >>> >>>>>> Yes, I totally agree So why is Paul Odette's next CD going to > have >>>>>> 3 Bach suites, and one Weiss. Why did Nigel North, record the > Chaconne >>>>> and >>>>>> a 4 CD set of all Bach, and one Weiss suite, Edwardo Eg? CD's of all >>>>>> Bach? and no Weiss. I'll tell you whyit's marketed to >>> guitarist's. >>>>>> Not quite. It is a bit more complicated. People record >Bach because > it >>> is >>>>>> the grandest achievement of human spirit and there is no >better >>> measuring >>>>>> tool for our ambitions/qualities. >>>>>> Eduardo has an extremely fine CD of Weiss as well, >although his >>> affinity >>>>>> towards JSB is far greater than for SLW (I have it from >the horse's >>>>> mouth). >>>>> >>>>> No question, I totally agree with you concerning Bach as the ultimate. >>>>> I also, happen to know that no record company will invest in something >>>>> that won't sell. >>>> Weiss-Barto series sold over 7. >>>> RT >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> >> > > To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: memorization
>> Weiss-Barto series sold over 7. >> RT > Is that 70,000, or 7000? >>The FORMER. >>RT So then, thats actually very good news. So, 70,000 divided by 6 volumes equals 11,600 each volume, half lutenist lets sat bought them and half others. Could it then be there are actually 5000 lutenist in the world? Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: "Roman Turovsky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Michael Thames" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "lute net" ; "Denys Stephens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2005 12:25 PM Subject: Re: memorization > >> Weiss-Barto series sold over 7. > >> RT > > Is that 70,000, or 7000? > The FORMER. > RT > > > > > > > >>>> Yes, I totally agree So why is Paul Odette's next CD going to have > >>>> 3 Bach suites, and one Weiss. Why did Nigel North, record the Chaconne > >>> and > >>>> a 4 CD set of all Bach, and one Weiss suite, Edwardo Eg? CD's of all > >>>> Bach? and no Weiss. I'll tell you whyit's marketed to > > guitarist's. > >>>> Not quite. It is a bit more complicated. People record >Bach because it > > is > >>>> the grandest achievement of human spirit and there is no >better > > measuring > >>>> tool for our ambitions/qualities. > >>>> Eduardo has an extremely fine CD of Weiss as well, >although his > > affinity > >>>> towards JSB is far greater than for SLW (I have it from >the horse's > >>> mouth). > >>> > >>> No question, I totally agree with you concerning Bach as the ultimate. > >>> I also, happen to know that no record company will invest in something > >>> that won't sell. > >> Weiss-Barto series sold over 7. > >> RT > >> > >> > > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: memorization
Where did you hear that? I had an employee of Naxos tell me that they anticipated sales of their CDs to average about 2000 and that was why they do not work with the usual royalty arrangements but pay a flat fee to the artists on their label. Nancy Carlin > > No question, I totally agree with you concerning Bach as the ultimate. > > I also, happen to know that no record company will invest in something > > that won't sell. >Weiss-Barto series sold over 7. >RT > > > >To get on or off this list see list information at >http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Nancy Carlin Associates P.O. Box 6499 Concord, CA 94524 USA phone 925/686-5800 fax 925/680-2582 web site - www.nancycarlinassociates.com Representing: FROM WALES - Robin Huw Bowen, Crasdant, Telyneg with Robin Huw Bowen & Eiry Palfrey, Sian James, Rhes Ganol, Neil & Meg Browning"s Never Mind the Bocs & Carreg Lafar, FROM CORNWALL - Dalla, FROM ENGLAND - The City Waites, Jez Lowe, & Jez Lowe & The Bad Pennies FROM FRANCE - Gabriel Yacoub, FROM DENMARK - Ph=F8nix Administrator THE LUTE SOCIETY OF AMERICA web site - http://LuteSocietyofAmerica.org --
Re: memorization
>> Weiss-Barto series sold over 7. >> RT > Is that 70,000, or 7000? The FORMER. RT > > Yes, I totally agree So why is Paul Odette's next CD going to have 3 Bach suites, and one Weiss. Why did Nigel North, record the Chaconne >>> and a 4 CD set of all Bach, and one Weiss suite, Edwardo Eg? CD's of all Bach? and no Weiss. I'll tell you whyit's marketed to > guitarist's. Not quite. It is a bit more complicated. People record >Bach because it > is the grandest achievement of human spirit and there is no >better > measuring tool for our ambitions/qualities. Eduardo has an extremely fine CD of Weiss as well, >although his > affinity towards JSB is far greater than for SLW (I have it from >the horse's >>> mouth). >>> >>> No question, I totally agree with you concerning Bach as the ultimate. >>> I also, happen to know that no record company will invest in something >>> that won't sell. >> Weiss-Barto series sold over 7. >> RT >> >> > > To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: memorization
Michael,
Nancy Carlin's estimate sounds reasonable. I have not exactly "switched
over" to baroque lute to the exclusion of renaissance lute, but include it
among the instruments that I practice on a regular basis. I think
that this trend is a natural effect of the desire in general to play a wider
range of music. My interest in baroque lute is not only to play Weiss' music
on the instrument for which it was written but also to compose music for
the instrument, both solo and continuo, with a better idea of what works
and what does not.
Best regards,
Marion
-Original Message-
From: Michael Thames <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Mar 31, 2005 7:34 AM
To: "Dr. Marion Ceruti" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, lute net ,
Denys Stephens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
Roman Turovsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: memorization
>Michael,
>How would you estimate the breakdown of the 3000 who play lutes?
>How many play renaissance lute only? How many play >baroque lute only?
>How may play both, theorbo, etc? How many play lutes >who have NOT
>also studied guitar? Has anyone done a study on the >statistics? A master's
>thesis?
>Best regards,
>Marion
Marion,
I don't know how accurate my break down is, so don't take it to the bank,
I think I read that Dick Hoban, did a poll of the lute society and found
70% ren.lute and 30% baroque lute, but speaking with Nancy Carlin, she said
the baroque lute is now at about 40% and raising.
Michael Thames
www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com
-Original Message-
From: Michael Thames <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Mar 30, 2005 9:18 PM
To: lute net ,
Denys Stephens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
Roman Turovsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: memorization
> Yes, I totally agree So why is Paul Odette's next CD going to have
> 3 Bach suites, and one Weiss. Why did Nigel North, record the Chaconne
and
> a 4 CD set of all Bach, and one Weiss suite, Edwardo Egüez 2 CD's of all
> Bach? and no Weiss. I'll tell you whyit's marketed to guitarist's.
>Not quite. It is a bit more complicated. People record >Bach because it is
>the grandest achievement of human spirit and there is no >better measuring
>tool for our ambitions/qualities.
>Eduardo has an extremely fine CD of Weiss as well, >although his affinity
>towards JSB is far greater than for SLW (I have it from >the horse's
mouth).
No question, I totally agree with you concerning Bach as the ultimate.
I also, happen to know that no record company will invest in something
that won't sell. They often times will tell the performer what, and what not
to play. Record companies are not doing so well these days. Bach sells.
There are as of last count 6 billion people in the world, out of 6 billion
maybe 100 million people play guitar in some way or another, and maybe 3000
play the lute. you do the math.
Michael Thames
www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com
- Original Message -
From: "Roman Turovsky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Michael Thames" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "lute net"
; "Denys Stephens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 9:05 PM
Subject: Re: memorization
> > Stephan wrote,
> >> Segovia (whom I admire greatly) did much to establish >the form and
content
> >> of the guitar recital format, which included playing from >memory, but
it
> > has
> >> to be said that the content of his performances was >predictable.
> >> There are only so many times that you want to hear the >Bach Chaconne,
the
> >> Villa Lobos preludes and so on before your ears glaze >over
> >
> > Yes, I totally agree So why is Paul Odette's next CD going to have
> > 3 Bach suites, and one Weiss. Why did Nigel North, record the Chaconne
and
> > a 4 CD set of all Bach, and one Weiss suite, Edwardo Egüez 2 CD's of
all
> > Bach? and no Weiss. I'll tell you whyit's marketed to guitarist's.
> Not quite. It is a bit more complicated. People record Bach because it is
> the grandest achievement of human spirit and there is no better measuring
> tool for our ambitions/qualities.
> Eduardo has an extremely fine CD of Weiss as well, although his affinity
> towards JSB is far greater than for SLW (I have it from the horse's
mouth).
> He also recorded De Visee, equally beautifully.
>
> > All this for an instrument Bach never wrote anything for in the first
> > place, all transcriptions, just like the guitar.
> > Michael Thames
> All Bach is a transcription, just because it is absolute music and no
> instrument could do it absolute justice.
> RT
>
> http://polyhymnion.org
>
>
>
>
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
Re: memorization
If this is true I must have imagined the lute prelude that Parkening has recorded on the guitar and that is in my music book. Cheers, Marion -Original Message- From: gary digman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Mar 31, 2005 3:31 AM To: Michael Thames <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: Re: memorization Bach never wrote anything for lute??? Gary Digman - Original Message - From: "Michael Thames" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "lute net" ; "Denys Stephens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 6:32 PM Subject: Re: memorization > Stephan wrote, >>Segovia (whom I admire greatly) did much to establish >the form and >>content >>of the guitar recital format, which included playing from >memory, but it > has >>to be said that the content of his performances was >predictable. >>There are only so many times that you want to hear the >Bach Chaconne, the >>Villa Lobos preludes and so on before your ears glaze >over > > Yes, I totally agree So why is Paul Odette's next CD going to > have > 3 Bach suites, and one Weiss. Why did Nigel North, record the Chaconne > and > a 4 CD set of all Bach, and one Weiss suite, Edwardo Egez 2 CD's of all > Bach? and no Weiss. I'll tell you whyit's marketed to guitarist's. > All this for an instrument Bach never wrote anything for in the first > place, all transcriptions, just like the guitar. > Michael Thames > www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com > - Original Message - > From: "Denys Stephens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "lute net" > Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 4:01 PM > Subject: Re: memorization > > >> Dear Michael, >> >> You wrote: >> >> "I wonder if lute concerts will ever be on the level of guitar concerts >> where lutenist's have the proper professional stage presence to not be >> staring at their music all the time. This might give them more appeal to >> the general concert going public, and more acceptance by guitarist's. I >> always felt a little jiped when a guitarist would play a concert sight >> reading the whole thing, I thought they didn't spend enough time learning >> the music." >> >> Funnily enough I don't take great exception to this, although it baffles > me >> as to why you would want to be in the company of lutenists if you think >> so >> little of our ability as performers! >> >> The paths of lutenists and guitarists diverged 30 years ago - there is a >> tradition of playing from tablature amongst lutenists, but I would not >> necessarily equate it with sight reading. I think you will find most lute >> players spend as much time studying the music and developing their >> interpretations as any guitarist - it's just a different way of working. >> The lute repertoire is very significantly larger than that of the > classical >> guitar. >> Segovia (whom I admire greatly) did much to establish the form and >> content >> of the guitar recital format, which included playing from memory, but it > has >> to be said that the content of his performances was predictable. >> There are only so many times that you want to hear the Bach Chaconne, the >> Villa Lobos preludes and so on before your ears glaze over, whether >> played >> from memory or not. I don't know what others on the list think, but I >> have >> certainly noticed a marked reduction in the number of classical guitar >> recitals since the 1980's and I think the lack of repertoire is very much >> part of that. >> >> Lutenists, by way of contrast, have a sufficient wealth of repertoire to >> play concert after concert without playing the same piece twice. I'm not >> claiming that we always do that, but there is great scope for variety. >> We don't need to hang our careers on grandiose "interpretations" of the >> same few pieces. Renaissance music is not Romantic music (in the >> context of the music history definition of the word) - the players role >> is >> often to detach one's ego from the performance and let the music >> speak for itself. >> >> So it's a different world to that of the classical guitar - please feel >> welcome to be part of it, but try to understand that there are reasons >> why >> we do things our own way. >> >> Best wishes, >> >> Denys >> >> >> >> >> To get on or off this list see list information at >> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >> > > > >
Re: Antwort: Re: memorization
>Yes - it's a pity that many lute players repeat the same >pieces all over >again. But in difference to the guitar world we do have a >vast repertoire >and it's work for generations to bring it back on stage. Regardless of how huge the repertoire is, either in the guitar world, or lute world, people play the most popular and well composed stuff. However, there are still some who insist on torturing themselves and others Taunenbaum I've heard has done yet another recording of Hense's "Royal Winter Music". I rather be eaten alive by South American Ants! Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2005 12:22 AM Subject: Antwort: Re: memorization > > > > > > Yes - it's a pity that many lute players repeat the same pieces all over > again. But in difference to the guitar world we do have a vast repertoire > and it's work for generations to bring it back on stage. > Just to tell a possible reason why the same pieces are played again and > again: When I ask the responsible person(s) for a recital what I should > play they will tell Bach and to a lesser degree Weiss. When I don't ask > even a "Galanterie" by Blohm is considered as "by Bach" from them (those > who know the pieces will know why I am naming this one - it has simply > nothing to do with any work by Bach). > I think it's the same with the guitar. There are a few pieces which are > fairly well known and that's what the performer is asked to play. I have > made good experiences with playing a different repertoire. > > BTW: I don't memorize the music. > > Best wishes > Thomas > > > > > > "Michael Thames" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> am 31.03.2005 04:32:16 > > An:"lute net" , "Denys Stephens" ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Kopie: > > Thema: Re: memorization > > Stephan wrote, > >Segovia (whom I admire greatly) did much to establish >the form and > content > >of the guitar recital format, which included playing from >memory, but it > has > >to be said that the content of his performances was >predictable. > >There are only so many times that you want to hear the >Bach Chaconne, the > >Villa Lobos preludes and so on before your ears glaze >over > > Yes, I totally agree So why is Paul Odette's next CD going to > have > 3 Bach suites, and one Weiss. Why did Nigel North, record the Chaconne and > a 4 CD set of all Bach, and one Weiss suite, Edwardo Egez 2 CD's of all > Bach? and no Weiss. I'll tell you whyit's marketed to guitarist's. > All this for an instrument Bach never wrote anything for in the first > place, all transcriptions, just like the guitar. > Michael Thames > www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com > - Original Message - > From: "Denys Stephens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "lute net" > Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 4:01 PM > Subject: Re: memorization > > > > Dear Michael, > > > > You wrote: > > > > "I wonder if lute concerts will ever be on the level of guitar concerts > > where lutenist's have the proper professional stage presence to not be > > staring at their music all the time. This might give them more appeal to > > the general concert going public, and more acceptance by guitarist's. I > > always felt a little jiped when a guitarist would play a concert sight > > reading the whole thing, I thought they didn't spend enough time learning > > the music." > > > > Funnily enough I don't take great exception to this, although it baffles > me > > as to why you would want to be in the company of lutenists if you think > so > > little of our ability as performers! > > > > The paths of lutenists and guitarists diverged 30 years ago - there is a > > tradition of playing from tablature amongst lutenists, but I would not > > necessarily equate it with sight reading. I think you will find most lute > > players spend as much time studying the music and developing their > > interpretations as any guitarist - it's just a different way of working. > > The lute repertoire is very significantly larger than that of the > classical > > guitar. > > Segovia (whom I admire greatly) did much to establish the form and > content > > of the guitar recital format, which included playing from memory, but it > has > > to be said that the content of his performances was predictable. > > There are only so many times that you want to hear the Bach C
Re: memorization
>> I also, happen to know that no record company will invest in something >> that won't sell. >Weiss-Barto series sold over 7. >RT I have heard, that Naxos, pays an artist, an up front fee of $1400.00 per CD. and no royalties. They figure they will sell 2000, and that's it. Your better off doing it at home on your computer with a good mic. and marketing them for $15.00 or $ 20.00 a CD rather than $7.95. Surely, better for the artist. I wouldn't hesitate to buy Barto's Cd's at that price. He would get what he deserves. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: "Roman Turovsky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Michael Thames" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "lute net" ; "Denys Stephens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2005 8:32 AM Subject: Re: memorization > >> Yes, I totally agree So why is Paul Odette's next CD going to have > >> 3 Bach suites, and one Weiss. Why did Nigel North, record the Chaconne > > and > >> a 4 CD set of all Bach, and one Weiss suite, Edwardo Eg? CD's of all > >> Bach? and no Weiss. I'll tell you whyit's marketed to guitarist's. > >> Not quite. It is a bit more complicated. People record >Bach because it is > >> the grandest achievement of human spirit and there is no >better measuring > >> tool for our ambitions/qualities. > >> Eduardo has an extremely fine CD of Weiss as well, >although his affinity > >> towards JSB is far greater than for SLW (I have it from >the horse's > > mouth). > > > > No question, I totally agree with you concerning Bach as the ultimate. > > I also, happen to know that no record company will invest in something > > that won't sell. > Weiss-Barto series sold over 7. > RT > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >
Re: memorization
>The only reason for doing anything is the love of doing it. > Gary Digman Only in a perfect world. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: "gary digman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Michael Thames" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2005 4:35 AM Subject: Re: memorization > The only reason for doing anything is the love of doing it. > > Gary Digman > > - Original Message - > From: "Michael Thames" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "lute net" ; "Denys Stephens" > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Roman Turovsky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 9:18 PM > Subject: Re: memorization > > > >> Yes, I totally agree So why is Paul Odette's next CD going to have > >> 3 Bach suites, and one Weiss. Why did Nigel North, record the Chaconne > > and > >> a 4 CD set of all Bach, and one Weiss suite, Edwardo Egüez 2 CD's of > >> all > >> Bach? and no Weiss. I'll tell you whyit's marketed to guitarist's. > >>Not quite. It is a bit more complicated. People record >Bach because it is > >>the grandest achievement of human spirit and there is no >better measuring > >>tool for our ambitions/qualities. > >>Eduardo has an extremely fine CD of Weiss as well, >although his affinity > >>towards JSB is far greater than for SLW (I have it from >the horse's > > mouth). > > > > No question, I totally agree with you concerning Bach as the ultimate. > > I also, happen to know that no record company will invest in something > > that won't sell. They often times will tell the performer what, and what > > not > > to play. Record companies are not doing so well these days. Bach sells. > > There are as of last count 6 billion people in the world, out of 6 > > billion > > maybe 100 million people play guitar in some way or another, and maybe > > 3000 > > play the lute. you do the math. > > Michael Thames > > www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com > > - Original Message - > > From: "Roman Turovsky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: "Michael Thames" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "lute net" > > ; "Denys Stephens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 9:05 PM > > Subject: Re: memorization > > > > > >> > Stephan wrote, > >> >> Segovia (whom I admire greatly) did much to establish >the form and > > content > >> >> of the guitar recital format, which included playing from >memory, but > > it > >> > has > >> >> to be said that the content of his performances was >predictable. > >> >> There are only so many times that you want to hear the >Bach Chaconne, > > the > >> >> Villa Lobos preludes and so on before your ears glaze >over > >> > > >> > Yes, I totally agree So why is Paul Odette's next CD going to have > >> > 3 Bach suites, and one Weiss. Why did Nigel North, record the Chaconne > > and > >> > a 4 CD set of all Bach, and one Weiss suite, Edwardo Egüez 2 CD's of > > all > >> > Bach? and no Weiss. I'll tell you whyit's marketed to > >> > guitarist's. > >> Not quite. It is a bit more complicated. People record Bach because it is > >> the grandest achievement of human spirit and there is no better measuring > >> tool for our ambitions/qualities. > >> Eduardo has an extremely fine CD of Weiss as well, although his affinity > >> towards JSB is far greater than for SLW (I have it from the horse's > > mouth). > >> He also recorded De Visee, equally beautifully. > >> > >> > All this for an instrument Bach never wrote anything for in the first > >> > place, all transcriptions, just like the guitar. > >> > Michael Thames > >> All Bach is a transcription, just because it is absolute music and no > >> instrument could do it absolute justice. > >> RT > >> > >> http://polyhymnion.org > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> To get on or off this list see list information at > >> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >
Re: Antwort: Re: memorization
>The small prelude in c-minor is for lute and the g-minor >suite (pour >Schouster) is an arrangement of a cello suite for lute by >Bach himself. Thomas, Did Bach actually sign off on the G minor suite? I like to think he did. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2005 4:41 AM Subject: Antwort: Re: memorization > > > > > > The small prelude in c-minor is for lute and the g-minor suite (pour > Schouster) is an arrangement of a cello suite for lute by Bach himself. All > other works are either uncertain or surely not meant for the lute. > This mainly has to do with a mistake in the first complete edition where > pieces for the "Lautenwerck" were catagorised as "lute works" (sorry - I'm > working from memory). > There are some contemporary arrangements by Falckenhagen and Weyrauch > (c-minor suite, g-minor suite and the fuga BWV1000) > > This all was discussed here several times > Best wishes > Thomas > > > > > > "gary digman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> am 31.03.2005 13:31:37 > > An:"Michael Thames" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Kopie: > > Thema: Re: memorization > > Bach never wrote anything for lute??? > > Gary Digman > > - Original Message - > From: "Michael Thames" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "lute net" ; "Denys Stephens" > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 6:32 PM > Subject: Re: memorization > > > > Stephan wrote, > >>Segovia (whom I admire greatly) did much to establish >the form and > >>content > >>of the guitar recital format, which included playing from >memory, but it > > has > >>to be said that the content of his performances was >predictable. > >>There are only so many times that you want to hear the >Bach Chaconne, > the > >>Villa Lobos preludes and so on before your ears glaze >over > > > > Yes, I totally agree So why is Paul Odette's next CD going to > > have > > 3 Bach suites, and one Weiss. Why did Nigel North, record the Chaconne > > and > > a 4 CD set of all Bach, and one Weiss suite, Edwardo Egez 2 CD's of all > > Bach? and no Weiss. I'll tell you whyit's marketed to guitarist's. > > All this for an instrument Bach never wrote anything for in the first > > place, all transcriptions, just like the guitar. > > Michael Thames > > www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com > > - Original Message - > > From: "Denys Stephens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: "lute net" > > Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 4:01 PM > > Subject: Re: memorization > > > > > >> Dear Michael, > >> > >> You wrote: > >> > >> "I wonder if lute concerts will ever be on the level of guitar concerts > >> where lutenist's have the proper professional stage presence to not be > >> staring at their music all the time. This might give them more appeal > to > >> the general concert going public, and more acceptance by guitarist's. I > >> always felt a little jiped when a guitarist would play a concert sight > >> reading the whole thing, I thought they didn't spend enough time > learning > >> the music." > >> > >> Funnily enough I don't take great exception to this, although it baffles > > me > >> as to why you would want to be in the company of lutenists if you think > >> so > >> little of our ability as performers! > >> > >> The paths of lutenists and guitarists diverged 30 years ago - there is a > >> tradition of playing from tablature amongst lutenists, but I would not > >> necessarily equate it with sight reading. I think you will find most > lute > >> players spend as much time studying the music and developing their > >> interpretations as any guitarist - it's just a different way of working. > >> The lute repertoire is very significantly larger than that of the > > classical > >> guitar. > >> Segovia (whom I admire greatly) did much to establish the form and > >> content > >> of the guitar recital format, which included playing from memory, but it > > has > >> to be said that the content of his performances was predictable. > >> There are only so many times that you want to hear the Bach Chaconne, > the > >> Villa Lobos preludes and so on before your ears glaze o
Re: memorization
>Weiss-Barto series sold over 7. >RT Is that 70,000, or 7000? Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: "Roman Turovsky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Michael Thames" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "lute net" ; "Denys Stephens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2005 8:32 AM Subject: Re: memorization > >> Yes, I totally agree So why is Paul Odette's next CD going to have > >> 3 Bach suites, and one Weiss. Why did Nigel North, record the Chaconne > > and > >> a 4 CD set of all Bach, and one Weiss suite, Edwardo Eg? CD's of all > >> Bach? and no Weiss. I'll tell you whyit's marketed to guitarist's. > >> Not quite. It is a bit more complicated. People record >Bach because it is > >> the grandest achievement of human spirit and there is no >better measuring > >> tool for our ambitions/qualities. > >> Eduardo has an extremely fine CD of Weiss as well, >although his affinity > >> towards JSB is far greater than for SLW (I have it from >the horse's > > mouth). > > > > No question, I totally agree with you concerning Bach as the ultimate. > > I also, happen to know that no record company will invest in something > > that won't sell. > Weiss-Barto series sold over 7. > RT > > To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: memorization
>Michael, >How would you estimate the breakdown of the 3000 who play lutes? >How many play renaissance lute only? How many play >baroque lute only? >How may play both, theorbo, etc? How many play lutes >who have NOT >also studied guitar? Has anyone done a study on the >statistics? A master's >thesis? >Best regards, >Marion Marion, I don't know how accurate my break down is, so don't take it to the bank, I think I read that Dick Hoban, did a poll of the lute society and found 70% ren.lute and 30% baroque lute, but speaking with Nancy Carlin, she said the baroque lute is now at about 40% and raising. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: "Dr. Marion Ceruti" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Michael Thames" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "lute net" ; "Denys Stephens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Roman Turovsky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2005 2:55 AM Subject: Re: memorization Michael, How would you estimate the breakdown of the 3000 who play lutes? How many play renaissance lute only? How many play baroque lute only? How may play both, theorbo, etc? How many play lutes who have NOT also studied guitar? Has anyone done a study on the statistics? A master's thesis? Best regards, Marion -Original Message- From: Michael Thames <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Mar 30, 2005 9:18 PM To: lute net , Denys Stephens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Roman Turovsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: memorization > Yes, I totally agree So why is Paul Odette's next CD going to have > 3 Bach suites, and one Weiss. Why did Nigel North, record the Chaconne and > a 4 CD set of all Bach, and one Weiss suite, Edwardo Egüez 2 CD's of all > Bach? and no Weiss. I'll tell you whyit's marketed to guitarist's. >Not quite. It is a bit more complicated. People record >Bach because it is >the grandest achievement of human spirit and there is no >better measuring >tool for our ambitions/qualities. >Eduardo has an extremely fine CD of Weiss as well, >although his affinity >towards JSB is far greater than for SLW (I have it from >the horse's mouth). No question, I totally agree with you concerning Bach as the ultimate. I also, happen to know that no record company will invest in something that won't sell. They often times will tell the performer what, and what not to play. Record companies are not doing so well these days. Bach sells. There are as of last count 6 billion people in the world, out of 6 billion maybe 100 million people play guitar in some way or another, and maybe 3000 play the lute. you do the math. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: "Roman Turovsky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Michael Thames" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "lute net" ; "Denys Stephens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 9:05 PM Subject: Re: memorization > > Stephan wrote, > >> Segovia (whom I admire greatly) did much to establish >the form and content > >> of the guitar recital format, which included playing from >memory, but it > > has > >> to be said that the content of his performances was >predictable. > >> There are only so many times that you want to hear the >Bach Chaconne, the > >> Villa Lobos preludes and so on before your ears glaze >over > > > > Yes, I totally agree So why is Paul Odette's next CD going to have > > 3 Bach suites, and one Weiss. Why did Nigel North, record the Chaconne and > > a 4 CD set of all Bach, and one Weiss suite, Edwardo Egüez 2 CD's of all > > Bach? and no Weiss. I'll tell you whyit's marketed to guitarist's. > Not quite. It is a bit more complicated. People record Bach because it is > the grandest achievement of human spirit and there is no better measuring > tool for our ambitions/qualities. > Eduardo has an extremely fine CD of Weiss as well, although his affinity > towards JSB is far greater than for SLW (I have it from the horse's mouth). > He also recorded De Visee, equally beautifully. > > > All this for an instrument Bach never wrote anything for in the first > > place, all transcriptions, just like the guitar. > > Michael Thames > All Bach is a transcription, just because it is absolute music and no > instrument could do it absolute justice. > RT > > http://polyhymnion.org > > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >
Re: memorization
This is really a very interesting thread! I memorize pieces for solo performance, and sight read (duo, or whatever) ensemble pieces. I find that memorization actually gives me much more freedom in interpretation, from one performance to the next. I memorize the notes, not the way I play them. The guitar repertoire is as vast as that of the lute; it's not like we have to just learn a few "masterpieces" and then begin our world tours. For the audience, I think concerts are like "theatre". To sit down and play with nothing between you and them but your instrument, probably seems a bit magical. Imagine going to a production of Shakespeare, or an opera, and having the cast walk out with notebooks to recite their lines from, or remind them of the lyrics... James > James, Very well said. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2005 12:04 AM Subject: Re: memorization > This is really a very interesting thread! I memorize pieces for solo > performance, and sight read (duo, or whatever) ensemble pieces. I find that > memorization actually gives me much more freedom in interpretation, from one > performance to the next. I memorize the notes, not the way I play them. The guitar > repertoire is as vast as that of the lute; it's not like we have to just learn > a few "masterpieces" and then begin our world tours. For the audience, I > think concerts are like "theatre". To sit down and play with nothing between you > and them but your instrument, probably seems a bit magical. Imagine going to > a production of Shakespeare, or an opera, and having the cast walk out with > notebooks to recite their lines from, or remind them of the lyrics... > > James > > -- > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >
Re: memorization
>> Yes, I totally agree So why is Paul Odette's next CD going to have >> 3 Bach suites, and one Weiss. Why did Nigel North, record the Chaconne > and >> a 4 CD set of all Bach, and one Weiss suite, Edwardo Eg? CD's of all >> Bach? and no Weiss. I'll tell you whyit's marketed to guitarist's. >> Not quite. It is a bit more complicated. People record >Bach because it is >> the grandest achievement of human spirit and there is no >better measuring >> tool for our ambitions/qualities. >> Eduardo has an extremely fine CD of Weiss as well, >although his affinity >> towards JSB is far greater than for SLW (I have it from >the horse's > mouth). > > No question, I totally agree with you concerning Bach as the ultimate. > I also, happen to know that no record company will invest in something > that won't sell. Weiss-Barto series sold over 7. RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: memorization
>> This is really a very interesting thread! I memorize pieces for solo >> performance, and sight read (duo, or whatever) ensemble pieces. I find that >> memorization actually gives me much more freedom in interpretation, from one >> performance to the next. I memorize the notes, not the way I play them. The >> guitar >> repertoire is as vast as that of the lute; it's not like we have to just >> learn >> a few "masterpieces" and then begin our world tours. For the audience, I >> think concerts are like "theatre". To sit down and play with nothing between >> you >> and them but your instrument, probably seems a bit magical. Imagine going to >> a production of Shakespeare, or an opera, and having the cast walk out with >> notebooks to recite their lines from, or remind them of the lyrics... >> >> James >> I am reminded of a Svyatoslav Richter quote, where he said that the dreaded habit of playing from memory only permits one Haydn sonata per recital, while the sightreading would have permitted half a dozen, and he would have loved to be able to do that. RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: memorization
Hear Hear!! On 3/31/05 2:04 AM, "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > This is really a very interesting thread! I memorize pieces for solo > performance, and sight read (duo, or whatever) ensemble pieces. I find that > memorization actually gives me much more freedom in interpretation, from one > performance to the next. I memorize the notes, not the way I play them. The > guitar > repertoire is as vast as that of the lute; it's not like we have to just learn > a few "masterpieces" and then begin our world tours. For the audience, I > think concerts are like "theatre". To sit down and play with nothing between > you > and them but your instrument, probably seems a bit magical. Imagine going to > a production of Shakespeare, or an opera, and having the cast walk out with > notebooks to recite their lines from, or remind them of the lyrics... > > James > > -- > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: memorization
Dear Denys I have heard the claim - only from lute players - that the lute repertoire is much larger than that of the classical guitar. This seems to be accepted as undisputed fact - again, only by lute players. I have been immersed in both worlds now for over 40 years, I have been paying close attention, I am not in any way hampered by some bias one way or the other - and I do not see it that way at all. I think, without any basis in solid research, that there's more guitar music just from the 19th century than there is lute music in total. To cast modern guitarists in the same mold as Segovia in terms of repertoire is just short sighted. The man died almost 20 years ago. If a guitarist already knew all of the music for his instrument - including the art songs, guitar ensemble music, duos, concerti, etudes, etc. - he couldn't possibly keep up with the music that is being published every day. I would like some definite information on the true extent of the lute rep. I hear, for instance about the English "Golden Age." How many printed sources? 4? 5? How many manuscripts, and in those ms. How many pieces that are repeated. The "lack of repertoire" has nothing to do with the lessening of the number of guitar recitals. There are fewer recitals of any kind than there were 20 years ago. Or do you think that the piano, for instance, also suffers from the same lack? I don't mean to sound like I am angrily defending the classical guitar - I don't think it needs my defense - I just would like some clarification to what seems to me to be an unbelievable conclusion. Regards, Joseph Mayes On 3/30/05 6:01 PM, "Denys Stephens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Dear Michael, > > You wrote: > > "I wonder if lute concerts will ever be on the level of guitar concerts > where lutenist's have the proper professional stage presence to not be > staring at their music all the time. This might give them more appeal to > the general concert going public, and more acceptance by guitarist's. I > always felt a little jiped when a guitarist would play a concert sight > reading the whole thing, I thought they didn't spend enough time learning > the music." > > Funnily enough I don't take great exception to this, although it baffles me > as to why you would want to be in the company of lutenists if you think so > little of our ability as performers! > > The paths of lutenists and guitarists diverged 30 years ago - there is a > tradition of playing from tablature amongst lutenists, but I would not > necessarily equate it with sight reading. I think you will find most lute > players spend as much time studying the music and developing their > interpretations as any guitarist - it's just a different way of working. > The lute repertoire is very significantly larger than that of the classical > guitar. > Segovia (whom I admire greatly) did much to establish the form and content > of the guitar recital format, which included playing from memory, but it has > to be said that the content of his performances was predictable. > There are only so many times that you want to hear the Bach Chaconne, the > Villa Lobos preludes and so on before your ears glaze over, whether played > from memory or not. I don't know what others on the list think, but I have > certainly noticed a marked reduction in the number of classical guitar > recitals since the 1980's and I think the lack of repertoire is very much > part of that. > > Lutenists, by way of contrast, have a sufficient wealth of repertoire to > play concert after concert without playing the same piece twice. I'm not > claiming that we always do that, but there is great scope for variety. > We don't need to hang our careers on grandiose "interpretations" of the > same few pieces. Renaissance music is not Romantic music (in the > context of the music history definition of the word) - the players role is > often to detach one's ego from the performance and let the music > speak for itself. > > So it's a different world to that of the classical guitar - please feel > welcome to be part of it, but try to understand that there are reasons why > we do things our own way. > > Best wishes, > > Denys > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Antwort: Re: memorization
The small prelude in c-minor is for lute and the g-minor suite (pour Schouster) is an arrangement of a cello suite for lute by Bach himself. All other works are either uncertain or surely not meant for the lute. This mainly has to do with a mistake in the first complete edition where pieces for the "Lautenwerck" were catagorised as "lute works" (sorry - I'm working from memory). There are some contemporary arrangements by Falckenhagen and Weyrauch (c-minor suite, g-minor suite and the fuga BWV1000) This all was discussed here several times Best wishes Thomas "gary digman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> am 31.03.2005 13:31:37 An:"Michael Thames" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Kopie: Thema: Re: memorization Bach never wrote anything for lute??? Gary Digman - Original Message - From: "Michael Thames" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "lute net" ; "Denys Stephens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 6:32 PM Subject: Re: memorization > Stephan wrote, >>Segovia (whom I admire greatly) did much to establish >the form and >>content >>of the guitar recital format, which included playing from >memory, but it > has >>to be said that the content of his performances was >predictable. >>There are only so many times that you want to hear the >Bach Chaconne, the >>Villa Lobos preludes and so on before your ears glaze >over > > Yes, I totally agree So why is Paul Odette's next CD going to > have > 3 Bach suites, and one Weiss. Why did Nigel North, record the Chaconne > and > a 4 CD set of all Bach, and one Weiss suite, Edwardo Egez 2 CD's of all > Bach? and no Weiss. I'll tell you whyit's marketed to guitarist's. > All this for an instrument Bach never wrote anything for in the first > place, all transcriptions, just like the guitar. > Michael Thames > www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com > - Original Message - > From: "Denys Stephens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "lute net" > Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 4:01 PM > Subject: Re: memorization > > >> Dear Michael, >> >> You wrote: >> >> "I wonder if lute concerts will ever be on the level of guitar concerts >> where lutenist's have the proper professional stage presence to not be >> staring at their music all the time. This might give them more appeal to >> the general concert going public, and more acceptance by guitarist's. I >> always felt a little jiped when a guitarist would play a concert sight >> reading the whole thing, I thought they didn't spend enough time learning >> the music." >> >> Funnily enough I don't take great exception to this, although it baffles > me >> as to why you would want to be in the company of lutenists if you think >> so >> little of our ability as performers! >> >> The paths of lutenists and guitarists diverged 30 years ago - there is a >> tradition of playing from tablature amongst lutenists, but I would not >> necessarily equate it with sight reading. I think you will find most lute >> players spend as much time studying the music and developing their >> interpretations as any guitarist - it's just a different way of working. >> The lute repertoire is very significantly larger than that of the > classical >> guitar. >> Segovia (whom I admire greatly) did much to establish the form and >> content >> of the guitar recital format, which included playing from memory, but it > has >> to be said that the content of his performances was predictable. >> There are only so many times that you want to hear the Bach Chaconne, the >> Villa Lobos preludes and so on before your ears glaze over, whether >> played >> from memory or not. I don't know what others on the list think, but I >> have >> certainly noticed a marked reduction in the number of classical guitar >> recitals since the 1980's and I think the lack of repertoire is very much >> part of that. >> >> Lutenists, by way of contrast, have a sufficient wealth of repertoire to >> play concert after concert without playing the same piece twice. I'm not >> claiming that we always do that, but there is great scope for variety. >> We don't need to hang our careers on grandiose "interpretations" of the >> same few pieces. Renaissance music is not Romantic music (in the >> context of the music history definition of the word) - the players role >> is >> often to detach one's ego from the performance and let the music >> speak for its
Re: memorization
The only reason for doing anything is the love of doing it. Gary Digman - Original Message - From: "Michael Thames" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "lute net" ; "Denys Stephens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Roman Turovsky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 9:18 PM Subject: Re: memorization >> Yes, I totally agree So why is Paul Odette's next CD going to have >> 3 Bach suites, and one Weiss. Why did Nigel North, record the Chaconne > and >> a 4 CD set of all Bach, and one Weiss suite, Edwardo Egüez 2 CD's of >> all >> Bach? and no Weiss. I'll tell you whyit's marketed to guitarist's. >>Not quite. It is a bit more complicated. People record >Bach because it is >>the grandest achievement of human spirit and there is no >better measuring >>tool for our ambitions/qualities. >>Eduardo has an extremely fine CD of Weiss as well, >although his affinity >>towards JSB is far greater than for SLW (I have it from >the horse's > mouth). > > No question, I totally agree with you concerning Bach as the ultimate. > I also, happen to know that no record company will invest in something > that won't sell. They often times will tell the performer what, and what > not > to play. Record companies are not doing so well these days. Bach sells. > There are as of last count 6 billion people in the world, out of 6 > billion > maybe 100 million people play guitar in some way or another, and maybe > 3000 > play the lute. you do the math. > Michael Thames > www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com > - Original Message ----- > From: "Roman Turovsky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "Michael Thames" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "lute net" > ; "Denys Stephens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 9:05 PM > Subject: Re: memorization > > >> > Stephan wrote, >> >> Segovia (whom I admire greatly) did much to establish >the form and > content >> >> of the guitar recital format, which included playing from >memory, but > it >> > has >> >> to be said that the content of his performances was >predictable. >> >> There are only so many times that you want to hear the >Bach Chaconne, > the >> >> Villa Lobos preludes and so on before your ears glaze >over >> > >> > Yes, I totally agree So why is Paul Odette's next CD going to have >> > 3 Bach suites, and one Weiss. Why did Nigel North, record the Chaconne > and >> > a 4 CD set of all Bach, and one Weiss suite, Edwardo Egüez 2 CD's of > all >> > Bach? and no Weiss. I'll tell you whyit's marketed to >> > guitarist's. >> Not quite. It is a bit more complicated. People record Bach because it is >> the grandest achievement of human spirit and there is no better measuring >> tool for our ambitions/qualities. >> Eduardo has an extremely fine CD of Weiss as well, although his affinity >> towards JSB is far greater than for SLW (I have it from the horse's > mouth). >> He also recorded De Visee, equally beautifully. >> >> > All this for an instrument Bach never wrote anything for in the first >> > place, all transcriptions, just like the guitar. >> > Michael Thames >> All Bach is a transcription, just because it is absolute music and no >> instrument could do it absolute justice. >> RT >> >> http://polyhymnion.org >> >> >> >> >> >> To get on or off this list see list information at >> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >> > > > >
Re: memorization
Bach never wrote anything for lute??? Gary Digman - Original Message - From: "Michael Thames" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "lute net" ; "Denys Stephens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 6:32 PM Subject: Re: memorization > Stephan wrote, >>Segovia (whom I admire greatly) did much to establish >the form and >>content >>of the guitar recital format, which included playing from >memory, but it > has >>to be said that the content of his performances was >predictable. >>There are only so many times that you want to hear the >Bach Chaconne, the >>Villa Lobos preludes and so on before your ears glaze >over > > Yes, I totally agree So why is Paul Odette's next CD going to > have > 3 Bach suites, and one Weiss. Why did Nigel North, record the Chaconne > and > a 4 CD set of all Bach, and one Weiss suite, Edwardo Egez 2 CD's of all > Bach? and no Weiss. I'll tell you whyit's marketed to guitarist's. > All this for an instrument Bach never wrote anything for in the first > place, all transcriptions, just like the guitar. > Michael Thames > www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com > - Original Message - > From: "Denys Stephens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "lute net" > Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 4:01 PM > Subject: Re: memorization > > >> Dear Michael, >> >> You wrote: >> >> "I wonder if lute concerts will ever be on the level of guitar concerts >> where lutenist's have the proper professional stage presence to not be >> staring at their music all the time. This might give them more appeal to >> the general concert going public, and more acceptance by guitarist's. I >> always felt a little jiped when a guitarist would play a concert sight >> reading the whole thing, I thought they didn't spend enough time learning >> the music." >> >> Funnily enough I don't take great exception to this, although it baffles > me >> as to why you would want to be in the company of lutenists if you think >> so >> little of our ability as performers! >> >> The paths of lutenists and guitarists diverged 30 years ago - there is a >> tradition of playing from tablature amongst lutenists, but I would not >> necessarily equate it with sight reading. I think you will find most lute >> players spend as much time studying the music and developing their >> interpretations as any guitarist - it's just a different way of working. >> The lute repertoire is very significantly larger than that of the > classical >> guitar. >> Segovia (whom I admire greatly) did much to establish the form and >> content >> of the guitar recital format, which included playing from memory, but it > has >> to be said that the content of his performances was predictable. >> There are only so many times that you want to hear the Bach Chaconne, the >> Villa Lobos preludes and so on before your ears glaze over, whether >> played >> from memory or not. I don't know what others on the list think, but I >> have >> certainly noticed a marked reduction in the number of classical guitar >> recitals since the 1980's and I think the lack of repertoire is very much >> part of that. >> >> Lutenists, by way of contrast, have a sufficient wealth of repertoire to >> play concert after concert without playing the same piece twice. I'm not >> claiming that we always do that, but there is great scope for variety. >> We don't need to hang our careers on grandiose "interpretations" of the >> same few pieces. Renaissance music is not Romantic music (in the >> context of the music history definition of the word) - the players role >> is >> often to detach one's ego from the performance and let the music >> speak for itself. >> >> So it's a different world to that of the classical guitar - please feel >> welcome to be part of it, but try to understand that there are reasons >> why >> we do things our own way. >> >> Best wishes, >> >> Denys >> >> >> >> >> To get on or off this list see list information at >> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >> > > > >
Re: memorization
- Original Message - From: "Nancy Carlin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Michael Thames" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "lute net" Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 4:11 PM Subject: Re: memorization > When Nigel North was here recently he played 3 concerts in the San > > Francisco area. At the one I was at there were 200-300 people and I > recognized about 15 people from the "lute community". > > Nancy Carlin Most of them were probably sitting in the back of the hall because, the way these concerts are organized, the first twenty rows are reserved for season ticket holders. So if I want to sit somewhere where I can actually hear the lute, I have to buy a ticket to every concert offered by the sponsors. Something most musicians I know could not afford to do. I do not attend lute concerts with such large audiences unless the seating is first come first seated. I refuse to pay $35 to $50 to watch someone, however famous and gifted, play a lute I cannot hear. It seems to me that if lutenists are going to play to such large audiences, we must seriously consider using some kind of sound reinformancement. Anyway, Nancy, that's why I wasn't there. All the Best, Gary Digman . To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: memorization
Michael, How would you estimate the breakdown of the 3000 who play lutes? How many play renaissance lute only? How many play baroque lute only? How may play both, theorbo, etc? How many play lutes who have NOT also studied guitar? Has anyone done a study on the statistics? A master's thesis? Best regards, Marion -Original Message- From: Michael Thames <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Mar 30, 2005 9:18 PM To: lute net , Denys Stephens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Roman Turovsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: memorization > Yes, I totally agree So why is Paul Odette's next CD going to have > 3 Bach suites, and one Weiss. Why did Nigel North, record the Chaconne and > a 4 CD set of all Bach, and one Weiss suite, Edwardo Egüez 2 CD's of all > Bach? and no Weiss. I'll tell you whyit's marketed to guitarist's. >Not quite. It is a bit more complicated. People record >Bach because it is >the grandest achievement of human spirit and there is no >better measuring >tool for our ambitions/qualities. >Eduardo has an extremely fine CD of Weiss as well, >although his affinity >towards JSB is far greater than for SLW (I have it from >the horse's mouth). No question, I totally agree with you concerning Bach as the ultimate. I also, happen to know that no record company will invest in something that won't sell. They often times will tell the performer what, and what not to play. Record companies are not doing so well these days. Bach sells. There are as of last count 6 billion people in the world, out of 6 billion maybe 100 million people play guitar in some way or another, and maybe 3000 play the lute. you do the math. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: "Roman Turovsky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Michael Thames" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "lute net" ; "Denys Stephens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 9:05 PM Subject: Re: memorization > > Stephan wrote, > >> Segovia (whom I admire greatly) did much to establish >the form and content > >> of the guitar recital format, which included playing from >memory, but it > > has > >> to be said that the content of his performances was >predictable. > >> There are only so many times that you want to hear the >Bach Chaconne, the > >> Villa Lobos preludes and so on before your ears glaze >over > > > > Yes, I totally agree So why is Paul Odette's next CD going to have > > 3 Bach suites, and one Weiss. Why did Nigel North, record the Chaconne and > > a 4 CD set of all Bach, and one Weiss suite, Edwardo Egüez 2 CD's of all > > Bach? and no Weiss. I'll tell you whyit's marketed to guitarist's. > Not quite. It is a bit more complicated. People record Bach because it is > the grandest achievement of human spirit and there is no better measuring > tool for our ambitions/qualities. > Eduardo has an extremely fine CD of Weiss as well, although his affinity > towards JSB is far greater than for SLW (I have it from the horse's mouth). > He also recorded De Visee, equally beautifully. > > > All this for an instrument Bach never wrote anything for in the first > > place, all transcriptions, just like the guitar. > > Michael Thames > All Bach is a transcription, just because it is absolute music and no > instrument could do it absolute justice. > RT > > http://polyhymnion.org > > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >
Re: memorization
Good for you, James, I'm with you. We are kindred spirits. There is something totally natural about not having to bother with sheet notation. Marion -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Mar 30, 2005 11:04 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: Re: memorization This is really a very interesting thread! I memorize pieces for solo performance, and sight read (duo, or whatever) ensemble pieces. I find that memorization actually gives me much more freedom in interpretation, from one performance to the next. I memorize the notes, not the way I play them. The guitar repertoire is as vast as that of the lute; it's not like we have to just learn a few "masterpieces" and then begin our world tours. For the audience, I think concerts are like "theatre". To sit down and play with nothing between you and them but your instrument, probably seems a bit magical. Imagine going to a production of Shakespeare, or an opera, and having the cast walk out with notebooks to recite their lines from, or remind them of the lyrics... James -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Antwort: Re: memorization
Yes - it's a pity that many lute players repeat the same pieces all over again. But in difference to the guitar world we do have a vast repertoire and it's work for generations to bring it back on stage. Just to tell a possible reason why the same pieces are played again and again: When I ask the responsible person(s) for a recital what I should play they will tell Bach and to a lesser degree Weiss. When I don't ask even a "Galanterie" by Blohm is considered as "by Bach" from them (those who know the pieces will know why I am naming this one - it has simply nothing to do with any work by Bach). I think it's the same with the guitar. There are a few pieces which are fairly well known and that's what the performer is asked to play. I have made good experiences with playing a different repertoire. BTW: I don't memorize the music. Best wishes Thomas "Michael Thames" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> am 31.03.2005 04:32:16 An:"lute net" , "Denys Stephens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Kopie: Thema: Re: memorization Stephan wrote, >Segovia (whom I admire greatly) did much to establish >the form and content >of the guitar recital format, which included playing from >memory, but it has >to be said that the content of his performances was >predictable. >There are only so many times that you want to hear the >Bach Chaconne, the >Villa Lobos preludes and so on before your ears glaze >over Yes, I totally agree So why is Paul Odette's next CD going to have 3 Bach suites, and one Weiss. Why did Nigel North, record the Chaconne and a 4 CD set of all Bach, and one Weiss suite, Edwardo Egez 2 CD's of all Bach? and no Weiss. I'll tell you whyit's marketed to guitarist's. All this for an instrument Bach never wrote anything for in the first place, all transcriptions, just like the guitar. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: "Denys Stephens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "lute net" Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 4:01 PM Subject: Re: memorization > Dear Michael, > > You wrote: > > "I wonder if lute concerts will ever be on the level of guitar concerts > where lutenist's have the proper professional stage presence to not be > staring at their music all the time. This might give them more appeal to > the general concert going public, and more acceptance by guitarist's. I > always felt a little jiped when a guitarist would play a concert sight > reading the whole thing, I thought they didn't spend enough time learning > the music." > > Funnily enough I don't take great exception to this, although it baffles me > as to why you would want to be in the company of lutenists if you think so > little of our ability as performers! > > The paths of lutenists and guitarists diverged 30 years ago - there is a > tradition of playing from tablature amongst lutenists, but I would not > necessarily equate it with sight reading. I think you will find most lute > players spend as much time studying the music and developing their > interpretations as any guitarist - it's just a different way of working. > The lute repertoire is very significantly larger than that of the classical > guitar. > Segovia (whom I admire greatly) did much to establish the form and content > of the guitar recital format, which included playing from memory, but it has > to be said that the content of his performances was predictable. > There are only so many times that you want to hear the Bach Chaconne, the > Villa Lobos preludes and so on before your ears glaze over, whether played > from memory or not. I don't know what others on the list think, but I have > certainly noticed a marked reduction in the number of classical guitar > recitals since the 1980's and I think the lack of repertoire is very much > part of that. > > Lutenists, by way of contrast, have a sufficient wealth of repertoire to > play concert after concert without playing the same piece twice. I'm not > claiming that we always do that, but there is great scope for variety. > We don't need to hang our careers on grandiose "interpretations" of the > same few pieces. Renaissance music is not Romantic music (in the > context of the music history definition of the word) - the players role is > often to detach one's ego from the performance and let the music > speak for itself. > > So it's a different world to that of the classical guitar - please feel > welcome to be part of it, but try to understand that there are reasons why > we do things our own way. > > Best wishes, > > Denys > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > CONFIDENTIALITY : This e-mail and any attachments are confidential and may be privileged. If you are not a named recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to another person, use it for any purpose or store or copy the information in any medium.
Antwort: Re: memorization
wasn't/isn't that kind of performance typical for Bob Barto? Thomas Roman Turovsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> am 31.03.2005 02:32:18 An:Michael Thames <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, lute net , Denys Stephens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Kopie: Thema: Re: memorization > If your giving a concert of Weiss and decide half way thought to play > the Chaconne and happen to have the tab handy, this will hardly be a > professional concert, will it? Not necessarily. Has been seen before, at the highest of levels. RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://polyhymnion.org/swv To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html CONFIDENTIALITY : This e-mail and any attachments are confidential and may be privileged. If you are not a named recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to another person, use it for any purpose or store or copy the information in any medium.
Re: memorization
This is really a very interesting thread! I memorize pieces for solo performance, and sight read (duo, or whatever) ensemble pieces. I find that memorization actually gives me much more freedom in interpretation, from one performance to the next. I memorize the notes, not the way I play them. The guitar repertoire is as vast as that of the lute; it's not like we have to just learn a few "masterpieces" and then begin our world tours. For the audience, I think concerts are like "theatre". To sit down and play with nothing between you and them but your instrument, probably seems a bit magical. Imagine going to a production of Shakespeare, or an opera, and having the cast walk out with notebooks to recite their lines from, or remind them of the lyrics... James -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: memorization
>> All this for an instrument Bach never wrote anything for in the first >> place, all transcriptions, just like the guitar. >> Michael Thames >All Bach is a transcription, just because it is absolute >music and no >instrument could do it absolute justice. >RT I disagree, some of it works well on the lute, and some doesn't. The partita in E major BWV 1006a is an example of this, too thin in texture to be a good lute transcription. On the other hand the 5th cello suite has a very thick lute like texture and works very well. Just a couple examples. However, Roman, I would say none of the cello suites sound as good on the lute, as the cello. Although they are great fun to play on the lute. I think Bach chose his medium very well in this case. Most people thesedays tend to transcribe Bach note for note, to the lute and guitar big mistake. In Bach's arrangements of his own suites, he added chords and harmonies to change the texture. I don't see many lutenist's adopting Bach's idea and thickening up the texture in their transcriptions. On Weiss. what Weiss lacks, compared to Bach as a composer, He makes up for, in his full use of texture, something a Bach transcription has never come close to doing, none of Bach's pieces ever take full advantage of the resources of the 13 course lute. So in the end it's a close stalemate, with a slight advantage to Weiss, at least regarding all things lute. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: "Roman Turovsky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Michael Thames" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "lute net" ; "Denys Stephens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 9:05 PM Subject: Re: memorization > > Stephan wrote, > >> Segovia (whom I admire greatly) did much to establish >the form and content > >> of the guitar recital format, which included playing from >memory, but it > > has > >> to be said that the content of his performances was >predictable. > >> There are only so many times that you want to hear the >Bach Chaconne, the > >> Villa Lobos preludes and so on before your ears glaze >over > > > > Yes, I totally agree So why is Paul Odette's next CD going to have > > 3 Bach suites, and one Weiss. Why did Nigel North, record the Chaconne and > > a 4 CD set of all Bach, and one Weiss suite, Edwardo Egüez 2 CD's of all > > Bach? and no Weiss. I'll tell you whyit's marketed to guitarist's. > Not quite. It is a bit more complicated. People record Bach because it is > the grandest achievement of human spirit and there is no better measuring > tool for our ambitions/qualities. > Eduardo has an extremely fine CD of Weiss as well, although his affinity > towards JSB is far greater than for SLW (I have it from the horse's mouth). > He also recorded De Visee, equally beautifully. > > > All this for an instrument Bach never wrote anything for in the first > > place, all transcriptions, just like the guitar. > > Michael Thames > All Bach is a transcription, just because it is absolute music and no > instrument could do it absolute justice. > RT > > http://polyhymnion.org > > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >
Re: memorization
>Eduardo Eguez has recorded Weiss. >ed To be honest, I've never seen any reference to a Weiss recording by Egez anywhere, if I had I would have bought one, please tell me where one can order his CD. Thanks, Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: "Edward Martin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Michael Thames" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "lute net" ; "Denys Stephens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 9:26 PM Subject: Re: memorization > Eduardo Eguez has recorded Weiss. > > ed > > > > > > Yes, I totally agree So why is Paul Odette's next CD going to have > >3 Bach suites, and one Weiss. Why did Nigel North, record the Chaconne and > >a 4 CD set of all Bach, and one Weiss suite, Edwardo Egez 2 CD's of all > >Bach? and no Weiss. I'll tell you whyit's marketed to guitarist's. > > All this for an instrument Bach never wrote anything for in the first > >place, all transcriptions, just like the guitar. > >Michael Thames > >www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com > >- Original Message - > >From: "Denys Stephens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >To: "lute net" > >Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 4:01 PM > >Subject: Re: memorization > > > > > > > Dear Michael, > > > > > > You wrote: > > > > > > "I wonder if lute concerts will ever be on the level of guitar concerts > > > where lutenist's have the proper professional stage presence to not be > > > staring at their music all the time. This might give them more appeal to > > > the general concert going public, and more acceptance by guitarist's. I > > > always felt a little jiped when a guitarist would play a concert sight > > > reading the whole thing, I thought they didn't spend enough time learning > > > the music." > > > > > > Funnily enough I don't take great exception to this, although it baffles > >me > > > as to why you would want to be in the company of lutenists if you think so > > > little of our ability as performers! > > > > > > The paths of lutenists and guitarists diverged 30 years ago - there is a > > > tradition of playing from tablature amongst lutenists, but I would not > > > necessarily equate it with sight reading. I think you will find most lute > > > players spend as much time studying the music and developing their > > > interpretations as any guitarist - it's just a different way of working. > > > The lute repertoire is very significantly larger than that of the > >classical > > > guitar. > > > Segovia (whom I admire greatly) did much to establish the form and content > > > of the guitar recital format, which included playing from memory, but it > >has > > > to be said that the content of his performances was predictable. > > > There are only so many times that you want to hear the Bach Chaconne, the > > > Villa Lobos preludes and so on before your ears glaze over, whether played > > > from memory or not. I don't know what others on the list think, but I have > > > certainly noticed a marked reduction in the number of classical guitar > > > recitals since the 1980's and I think the lack of repertoire is very much > > > part of that. > > > > > > Lutenists, by way of contrast, have a sufficient wealth of repertoire to > > > play concert after concert without playing the same piece twice. I'm not > > > claiming that we always do that, but there is great scope for variety. > > > We don't need to hang our careers on grandiose "interpretations" of the > > > same few pieces. Renaissance music is not Romantic music (in the > > > context of the music history definition of the word) - the players role is > > > often to detach one's ego from the performance and let the music > > > speak for itself. > > > > > > So it's a different world to that of the classical guitar - please feel > > > welcome to be part of it, but try to understand that there are reasons why > > > we do things our own way. > > > > > > Best wishes, > > > > > > Denys > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > > > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > > > > > Edward Martin > 2817 East 2nd Street > Duluth, Minnesota 55812 > e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > voice: (218) 728-1202 > > > >
Re: memorization
> Yes, I totally agree So why is Paul Odette's next CD going to have > 3 Bach suites, and one Weiss. Why did Nigel North, record the Chaconne and > a 4 CD set of all Bach, and one Weiss suite, Edwardo Egüez 2 CD's of all > Bach? and no Weiss. I'll tell you whyit's marketed to guitarist's. >Not quite. It is a bit more complicated. People record >Bach because it is >the grandest achievement of human spirit and there is no >better measuring >tool for our ambitions/qualities. >Eduardo has an extremely fine CD of Weiss as well, >although his affinity >towards JSB is far greater than for SLW (I have it from >the horse's mouth). No question, I totally agree with you concerning Bach as the ultimate. I also, happen to know that no record company will invest in something that won't sell. They often times will tell the performer what, and what not to play. Record companies are not doing so well these days. Bach sells. There are as of last count 6 billion people in the world, out of 6 billion maybe 100 million people play guitar in some way or another, and maybe 3000 play the lute. you do the math. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: "Roman Turovsky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Michael Thames" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "lute net" ; "Denys Stephens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 9:05 PM Subject: Re: memorization > > Stephan wrote, > >> Segovia (whom I admire greatly) did much to establish >the form and content > >> of the guitar recital format, which included playing from >memory, but it > > has > >> to be said that the content of his performances was >predictable. > >> There are only so many times that you want to hear the >Bach Chaconne, the > >> Villa Lobos preludes and so on before your ears glaze >over > > > > Yes, I totally agree So why is Paul Odette's next CD going to have > > 3 Bach suites, and one Weiss. Why did Nigel North, record the Chaconne and > > a 4 CD set of all Bach, and one Weiss suite, Edwardo Egüez 2 CD's of all > > Bach? and no Weiss. I'll tell you whyit's marketed to guitarist's. > Not quite. It is a bit more complicated. People record Bach because it is > the grandest achievement of human spirit and there is no better measuring > tool for our ambitions/qualities. > Eduardo has an extremely fine CD of Weiss as well, although his affinity > towards JSB is far greater than for SLW (I have it from the horse's mouth). > He also recorded De Visee, equally beautifully. > > > All this for an instrument Bach never wrote anything for in the first > > place, all transcriptions, just like the guitar. > > Michael Thames > All Bach is a transcription, just because it is absolute music and no > instrument could do it absolute justice. > RT > > http://polyhymnion.org > > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >
Re: memorization
Eduardo Eguez has recorded Weiss. ed > Yes, I totally agree So why is Paul Odette's next CD going to have >3 Bach suites, and one Weiss. Why did Nigel North, record the Chaconne and >a 4 CD set of all Bach, and one Weiss suite, Edwardo Egez 2 CD's of all >Bach? and no Weiss. I'll tell you whyit's marketed to guitarist's. > All this for an instrument Bach never wrote anything for in the first >place, all transcriptions, just like the guitar. >Michael Thames >www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com >- Original Message - >From: "Denys Stephens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >To: "lute net" >Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 4:01 PM >Subject: Re: memorization > > > > Dear Michael, > > > > You wrote: > > > > "I wonder if lute concerts will ever be on the level of guitar concerts > > where lutenist's have the proper professional stage presence to not be > > staring at their music all the time. This might give them more appeal to > > the general concert going public, and more acceptance by guitarist's. I > > always felt a little jiped when a guitarist would play a concert sight > > reading the whole thing, I thought they didn't spend enough time learning > > the music." > > > > Funnily enough I don't take great exception to this, although it baffles >me > > as to why you would want to be in the company of lutenists if you think so > > little of our ability as performers! > > > > The paths of lutenists and guitarists diverged 30 years ago - there is a > > tradition of playing from tablature amongst lutenists, but I would not > > necessarily equate it with sight reading. I think you will find most lute > > players spend as much time studying the music and developing their > > interpretations as any guitarist - it's just a different way of working. > > The lute repertoire is very significantly larger than that of the >classical > > guitar. > > Segovia (whom I admire greatly) did much to establish the form and content > > of the guitar recital format, which included playing from memory, but it >has > > to be said that the content of his performances was predictable. > > There are only so many times that you want to hear the Bach Chaconne, the > > Villa Lobos preludes and so on before your ears glaze over, whether played > > from memory or not. I don't know what others on the list think, but I have > > certainly noticed a marked reduction in the number of classical guitar > > recitals since the 1980's and I think the lack of repertoire is very much > > part of that. > > > > Lutenists, by way of contrast, have a sufficient wealth of repertoire to > > play concert after concert without playing the same piece twice. I'm not > > claiming that we always do that, but there is great scope for variety. > > We don't need to hang our careers on grandiose "interpretations" of the > > same few pieces. Renaissance music is not Romantic music (in the > > context of the music history definition of the word) - the players role is > > often to detach one's ego from the performance and let the music > > speak for itself. > > > > So it's a different world to that of the classical guitar - please feel > > welcome to be part of it, but try to understand that there are reasons why > > we do things our own way. > > > > Best wishes, > > > > Denys > > > > > > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202
Re: memorization
> Stephan wrote, >> Segovia (whom I admire greatly) did much to establish >the form and content >> of the guitar recital format, which included playing from >memory, but it > has >> to be said that the content of his performances was >predictable. >> There are only so many times that you want to hear the >Bach Chaconne, the >> Villa Lobos preludes and so on before your ears glaze >over > > Yes, I totally agree So why is Paul Odette's next CD going to have > 3 Bach suites, and one Weiss. Why did Nigel North, record the Chaconne and > a 4 CD set of all Bach, and one Weiss suite, Edwardo Egüez 2 CD's of all > Bach? and no Weiss. I'll tell you whyit's marketed to guitarist's. Not quite. It is a bit more complicated. People record Bach because it is the grandest achievement of human spirit and there is no better measuring tool for our ambitions/qualities. Eduardo has an extremely fine CD of Weiss as well, although his affinity towards JSB is far greater than for SLW (I have it from the horse's mouth). He also recorded De Visee, equally beautifully. > All this for an instrument Bach never wrote anything for in the first > place, all transcriptions, just like the guitar. > Michael Thames All Bach is a transcription, just because it is absolute music and no instrument could do it absolute justice. RT http://polyhymnion.org To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: memorization
Stephan wrote, >Segovia (whom I admire greatly) did much to establish >the form and content >of the guitar recital format, which included playing from >memory, but it has >to be said that the content of his performances was >predictable. >There are only so many times that you want to hear the >Bach Chaconne, the >Villa Lobos preludes and so on before your ears glaze >over Yes, I totally agree So why is Paul Odette's next CD going to have 3 Bach suites, and one Weiss. Why did Nigel North, record the Chaconne and a 4 CD set of all Bach, and one Weiss suite, Edwardo Egez 2 CD's of all Bach? and no Weiss. I'll tell you whyit's marketed to guitarist's. All this for an instrument Bach never wrote anything for in the first place, all transcriptions, just like the guitar. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: "Denys Stephens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "lute net" Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 4:01 PM Subject: Re: memorization > Dear Michael, > > You wrote: > > "I wonder if lute concerts will ever be on the level of guitar concerts > where lutenist's have the proper professional stage presence to not be > staring at their music all the time. This might give them more appeal to > the general concert going public, and more acceptance by guitarist's. I > always felt a little jiped when a guitarist would play a concert sight > reading the whole thing, I thought they didn't spend enough time learning > the music." > > Funnily enough I don't take great exception to this, although it baffles me > as to why you would want to be in the company of lutenists if you think so > little of our ability as performers! > > The paths of lutenists and guitarists diverged 30 years ago - there is a > tradition of playing from tablature amongst lutenists, but I would not > necessarily equate it with sight reading. I think you will find most lute > players spend as much time studying the music and developing their > interpretations as any guitarist - it's just a different way of working. > The lute repertoire is very significantly larger than that of the classical > guitar. > Segovia (whom I admire greatly) did much to establish the form and content > of the guitar recital format, which included playing from memory, but it has > to be said that the content of his performances was predictable. > There are only so many times that you want to hear the Bach Chaconne, the > Villa Lobos preludes and so on before your ears glaze over, whether played > from memory or not. I don't know what others on the list think, but I have > certainly noticed a marked reduction in the number of classical guitar > recitals since the 1980's and I think the lack of repertoire is very much > part of that. > > Lutenists, by way of contrast, have a sufficient wealth of repertoire to > play concert after concert without playing the same piece twice. I'm not > claiming that we always do that, but there is great scope for variety. > We don't need to hang our careers on grandiose "interpretations" of the > same few pieces. Renaissance music is not Romantic music (in the > context of the music history definition of the word) - the players role is > often to detach one's ego from the performance and let the music > speak for itself. > > So it's a different world to that of the classical guitar - please feel > welcome to be part of it, but try to understand that there are reasons why > we do things our own way. > > Best wishes, > > Denys > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >
Re: memorization
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Re: memorization
>> If your giving a concert of Weiss and decide half way thought to play >> the Chaconne and happen to have the tab handy, this will hardly be a >> professional concert, will it? >> Not necessarily. Has been seen before, at the highest of >levels. >> RT > > Not if one has never read through the chaconne before. > Michael Thames > www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com You will have difficulties finding such an individual. RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://polyhymnion.org/swv > > >>> If your giving a concert of Weiss and decide half way thought to play >>> the Chaconne and happen to have the tab handy, this will hardly be a >>> professional concert, will it? >> Not necessarily. Has been seen before, at the highest of levels. >> RT >> __ >> Roman M. Turovsky >> http://polyhymnion.org/swv >> >> >> > > To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: memorization
Nancy, Thanks for correcting me there. And great to here about the successes of Nigel North's concert. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Nancy Carlin To: Michael Thames ; lute net Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 5:11 PM Subject: Re: memorization Michael, Just to clarify the point about the lute players decline. I had mentioned that there seem to be less than 30 years ago when we had more than 25 of them at a lute event in the San Francisco area. On the other hand the LSA has had a 35% increase in members last year, and hopefully that's because we are offering things that people want. Maybe we have as many lute players as before and it's just that we're more diversified. The baroque people go to baroque concerts and likewise with the renaissance people. When Nigel North was here recently he played 3 concerts in the San Francisco area. At the one I was at there were 200-300 people and I recognized about 15 people from the "lute community". Nancy Carlin >Funnily enough I don't take great exception to this, >although it baffles me >as to why you would want to be in the company of >lutenists if you think so >little of our ability as performers! Stephan, I wish I were in the company of more lute players, but living out here in Taos, in a house with solar power and water collected from the rain, I don't get to see many humans let alone lute players. Seriously, I didn't criticize the ability of any lutenist, just the reliance on sight reading. Don't forget I'm a lutenist as well, I don't consider myself a guitarist.. Don't think that you have the whole lute repertoire at your instant call if you haven't worked on every piece . If your giving a concert of Weiss and decide half way thought to play the Chaconne and happen to have the tab handy, this will hardly be a professional concert, will it? The other day, Nancy Carlin was telling me about the steady decline of members of the LSA. This I think is true all over the classical music world not just guitar and lute. If you think this is bad try going to a Jazz concert. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: "Denys Stephens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "lute net" Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 4:01 PM Subject: Re: memorization > Dear Michael, > > You wrote: > > "I wonder if lute concerts will ever be on the level of guitar concerts > where lutenist's have the proper professional stage presence to not be > staring at their music all the time. This might give them more appeal to > the general concert going public, and more acceptance by guitarist's. I > always felt a little jiped when a guitarist would play a concert sight > reading the whole thing, I thought they didn't spend enough time learning > the music." > > Funnily enough I don't take great exception to this, although it baffles me > as to why you would want to be in the company of lutenists if you think so > little of our ability as performers! > > The paths of lutenists and guitarists diverged 30 years ago - there is a > tradition of playing from tablature amongst lutenists, but I would not > necessarily equate it with sight reading. I think you will find most lute > players spend as much time studying the music and developing their > interpretations as any guitarist - it's just a different way of working. > The lute repertoire is very significantly larger than that of the classical > guitar. > Segovia (whom I admire greatly) did much to establish the form and content > of the guitar recital format, which included playing from memory, but it has > to be said that the content of his performances was predictable. > There are only so many times that you want to hear the Bach Chaconne, the > Villa Lobos preludes and so on before your ears glaze over, whether played > from memory or not. I don't know what others on the list think, but I have > certainly noticed a marked reduction in the number of classical guitar > recitals since the 1980's and I think the lack of repertoire is very much > part of that. > > Lutenists, by way of contrast, have a sufficient wealth of repertoire to > play concert after concert without playing the same piece twice. I'm not > claiming that we always do that, but there is great scope for variety. > We don't need to hang our careers on grandiose "interpreta
Re: memorization
> If your giving a concert of Weiss and decide half way thought to play > the Chaconne and happen to have the tab handy, this will hardly be a > professional concert, will it? >Not necessarily. Has been seen before, at the highest of >levels. >RT Not if one has never read through the chaconne before. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: "Roman Turovsky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Michael Thames" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "lute net" ; "Denys Stephens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 5:32 PM Subject: Re: memorization > > If your giving a concert of Weiss and decide half way thought to play > > the Chaconne and happen to have the tab handy, this will hardly be a > > professional concert, will it? > Not necessarily. Has been seen before, at the highest of levels. > RT > __ > Roman M. Turovsky > http://polyhymnion.org/swv > > > To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: memorization
Michael, Just to clarify the point about the lute players decline. I had mentioned that there seem to be less than 30 years ago when we had more than 25 of them at a lute event in the San Francisco area. On the other hand the LSA has had a 35% increase in members last year, and hopefully that's because we are offering things that people want. Maybe we have as many lute players as before and it's just that we're more diversified. The baroque people go to baroque concerts and likewise with the renaissance people. When Nigel North was here recently he played 3 concerts in the San Francisco area. At the one I was at there were 200-300 people and I recognized about 15 people from the "lute community". Nancy Carlin > >Funnily enough I don't take great exception to this, >although it baffles >me > >as to why you would want to be in the company of >lutenists if you think so > >little of our ability as performers! > > Stephan, >I wish I were in the company of more lute players, but living out here in >Taos, in a house with solar power and water collected from the rain, I don't >get to see many humans let alone lute players. >Seriously, I didn't criticize the ability of any lutenist, just the >reliance on sight reading. Don't forget I'm a lutenist as well, I don't >consider myself a guitarist.. > Don't think that you have the whole lute repertoire at your instant call >if you haven't worked on every piece >. If your giving a concert of Weiss and decide half way thought to play >the Chaconne and happen to have the tab handy, this will hardly be a >professional concert, will it? > The other day, Nancy Carlin was telling me about the steady decline of >members of the LSA. This I think is true all over the classical music world >not just guitar and lute. If you think this is bad try going to a Jazz >concert. >Michael Thames >www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com >- Original Message - >From: "Denys Stephens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >To: "lute net" >Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 4:01 PM >Subject: Re: memorization > > > > Dear Michael, > > > > You wrote: > > > > "I wonder if lute concerts will ever be on the level of guitar concerts > > where lutenist's have the proper professional stage presence to not be > > staring at their music all the time. This might give them more appeal to > > the general concert going public, and more acceptance by guitarist's. I > > always felt a little jiped when a guitarist would play a concert sight > > reading the whole thing, I thought they didn't spend enough time learning > > the music." > > > > Funnily enough I don't take great exception to this, although it baffles >me > > as to why you would want to be in the company of lutenists if you think so > > little of our ability as performers! > > > > The paths of lutenists and guitarists diverged 30 years ago - there is a > > tradition of playing from tablature amongst lutenists, but I would not > > necessarily equate it with sight reading. I think you will find most lute > > players spend as much time studying the music and developing their > > interpretations as any guitarist - it's just a different way of working. > > The lute repertoire is very significantly larger than that of the >classical > > guitar. > > Segovia (whom I admire greatly) did much to establish the form and content > > of the guitar recital format, which included playing from memory, but it >has > > to be said that the content of his performances was predictable. > > There are only so many times that you want to hear the Bach Chaconne, the > > Villa Lobos preludes and so on before your ears glaze over, whether played > > from memory or not. I don't know what others on the list think, but I have > > certainly noticed a marked reduction in the number of classical guitar > > recitals since the 1980's and I think the lack of repertoire is very much > > part of that. > > > > Lutenists, by way of contrast, have a sufficient wealth of repertoire to > > play concert after concert without playing the same piece twice. I'm not > > claiming that we always do that, but there is great scope for variety. > > We don't need to hang our careers on grandiose "interpretations" of the > > same few pieces. Renaissance music is not Romantic music (in the > > context of the music history definition of the word) - the players role is > > often to detach one's ego from the performance and let the music > > speak for itse
Re: memorization
> If your giving a concert of Weiss and decide half way thought to play > the Chaconne and happen to have the tab handy, this will hardly be a > professional concert, will it? Not necessarily. Has been seen before, at the highest of levels. RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://polyhymnion.org/swv To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: memorization
>Funnily enough I don't take great exception to this, >although it baffles me >as to why you would want to be in the company of >lutenists if you think so >little of our ability as performers! Stephan, I wish I were in the company of more lute players, but living out here in Taos, in a house with solar power and water collected from the rain, I don't get to see many humans let alone lute players. Seriously, I didn't criticize the ability of any lutenist, just the reliance on sight reading. Don't forget I'm a lutenist as well, I don't consider myself a guitarist.. Don't think that you have the whole lute repertoire at your instant call if you haven't worked on every piece . If your giving a concert of Weiss and decide half way thought to play the Chaconne and happen to have the tab handy, this will hardly be a professional concert, will it? The other day, Nancy Carlin was telling me about the steady decline of members of the LSA. This I think is true all over the classical music world not just guitar and lute. If you think this is bad try going to a Jazz concert. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: "Denys Stephens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "lute net" Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 4:01 PM Subject: Re: memorization > Dear Michael, > > You wrote: > > "I wonder if lute concerts will ever be on the level of guitar concerts > where lutenist's have the proper professional stage presence to not be > staring at their music all the time. This might give them more appeal to > the general concert going public, and more acceptance by guitarist's. I > always felt a little jiped when a guitarist would play a concert sight > reading the whole thing, I thought they didn't spend enough time learning > the music." > > Funnily enough I don't take great exception to this, although it baffles me > as to why you would want to be in the company of lutenists if you think so > little of our ability as performers! > > The paths of lutenists and guitarists diverged 30 years ago - there is a > tradition of playing from tablature amongst lutenists, but I would not > necessarily equate it with sight reading. I think you will find most lute > players spend as much time studying the music and developing their > interpretations as any guitarist - it's just a different way of working. > The lute repertoire is very significantly larger than that of the classical > guitar. > Segovia (whom I admire greatly) did much to establish the form and content > of the guitar recital format, which included playing from memory, but it has > to be said that the content of his performances was predictable. > There are only so many times that you want to hear the Bach Chaconne, the > Villa Lobos preludes and so on before your ears glaze over, whether played > from memory or not. I don't know what others on the list think, but I have > certainly noticed a marked reduction in the number of classical guitar > recitals since the 1980's and I think the lack of repertoire is very much > part of that. > > Lutenists, by way of contrast, have a sufficient wealth of repertoire to > play concert after concert without playing the same piece twice. I'm not > claiming that we always do that, but there is great scope for variety. > We don't need to hang our careers on grandiose "interpretations" of the > same few pieces. Renaissance music is not Romantic music (in the > context of the music history definition of the word) - the players role is > often to detach one's ego from the performance and let the music > speak for itself. > > So it's a different world to that of the classical guitar - please feel > welcome to be part of it, but try to understand that there are reasons why > we do things our own way. > > Best wishes, > > Denys > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >
Re: Antwort: Re: memorization/Re: Gallot speaks...
>Hi Michael, >most of us luteplayers play several different instruments. Thomas, I play the Baroque lute, ren. lute 6 course. I use thumb under for ren lute, and thumb out for baroque lute. I must be strange, because I don't forget the pieces I've memorized on either instrument just because I use a different tuning, ( perhaps other reasons ) although I must admit I'm not a professional musician. I guess what I'm getting at is thesedays when one goes to a solo concert of guitar, piano, cello, violin etc. the norm is to see these performers play from memory. I saw a concert years ago of Aner Blysma, playing the six cello suites over a two evening show, with just him and his cello and 5000 people in attendance. There was a Zen like quality to it, truly a transcendental experience, and that to me is what the price of admission is all about. I've seen David Taunenbuam play the 4 Bach lute suites all from memory in one concert,. Alfred Brendel etc. Why is this not the case for performers on the lute thesedays, one would have thought that the lute would have caught up with the rest of the world by now. Maybe this is what keeps the upper realm of lute players playing for the same old shrinking audience year after year, and not breaking through the next level. Whether lute players like it is one thing, but I know most guitars look down on this kind of performance practice. I will remind you I am one of the very people I'm talking about. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 3:56 AM Subject: Antwort: Re: memorization/Re: Gallot speaks... > > > > > > Hi Michael, > > most of us luteplayers play several different instruments. > If you would memorize all the music as a result you just could do it by > memorizing the mechanical process. But I rather like to remember the > melodies, motifs etc... I have to admit that when playing from memory I > often confuse the instruments I am playing on: Soon I play a line or chord > on the b-lute as if I would play a renaissance instrument and vice versa > which leads to some kind of "modern sound". So having the tab in front of > you gives security. (Funnily when improvising I seldom have such problems. > ) > > Another of the general disadvantages of memorizing pieces is that you fix > an interpretation. You will always play a piece exactly like memorized with > just a very limited choice of reacting to the room you're playing in, the > audience and other factors. And to develop your interpretation will get > very hard. > > What do we actually want to archive when we memorize a piece? > I think it's (technical) security. You will be able to view you're hands > while playing and you usually should know where to put your fingers. > But - I do well remember that as guitar student I always was in panic to > forget a passage or to miss a tone because every tiny little mistake could > completly throw me out of the piece. > Finally now I think it depends much on the players personality if > memorizing makes sense or not. It certainly has nothing to do with > professionalsimn or that playing from memory "looks" more professional. > *Why* should it look more professional too play without a music stand? > > For me personally memorizing music for lute brings more disadvantages than > advantages as long as you want to play more than one instrument. > > Anyhow I would recommend to everybody to have some pieces in memory just > for the situation - which sooner or later will occur - that someone is > asking you to play a piece and you don't have any tabulature at hand. > > Best wishes > Thomas > > > > > > "Michael Thames" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> am 30.03.2005 08:19:05 > > An:"lute list" , "Ed Durbrow" ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Kopie: > > Thema: Re: memorization/Re: Gallot speaks... > > Ed, > Thanks for advice. I think your right about memorizing it and then using > the tab as a reference. Just playing through stuff is fun but you don't > really progress, or perfect anything. Sight reading it seems, can become a > crutch one can never free oneself of. > One day I played the prelude of the Bach G minor suite for Michael > Chapdaliane, hoping to turn him on to the lute ( no success) I forgot a > section and he stopped me and said I didn't know the music, I said what do > you mean, he said you should be able to tell me every note of the piece > without playing it. I know this method of memorization is popular amongst > guitar students of Aaron Shear > I wonder if lute concerts will ever be on the level of guitar conc
Re: memorization/Re: Gallot speaks...
++If you have memorized a piece completely you will not be able to forget any note even if you want to. I would have preferred if you used the word properly, instead of completely. I've seen everyone, drop notes in concerts including, John Williams. ++I have music in front of me when playing with others just for reference, but I never actually look at notes if playing a concert or for recordings on any instrument. The music notation is too distracting Then why have it there? Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: "Dr. Marion Ceruti" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Michael Thames" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "lute list" ; "Ed Durbrow" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 9:46 AM Subject: Re: memorization/Re: Gallot speaks... -Original Message- From: Michael Thames <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Mar 29, 2005 10:19 PM To: lute list , Ed Durbrow <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: memorization/Re: Gallot speaks... Ed, Thanks for advice. I think your right about memorizing it and then using the tab as a reference. Just playing through stuff is fun but you don't really progress, or perfect anything. Sight reading it seems, can become a crutch one can never free oneself of. ++For some people, memorization is the crutch. One day I played the prelude of the Bach G minor suite for Michael Chapdaliane, hoping to turn him on to the lute ( no success) I forgot a section and he stopped me and said I didn't know the music, I said what do you mean, he said you should be able to tell me every note of the piece without playing it. I know this method of memorization is popular amongst guitar students of Aaron Shear ++If you have memorized a piece completely you will not be able to forget any note even if you want to. I wonder if lute concerts will ever be on the level of guitar concerts where lutenist's have the proper professional stage presence to not be staring at their music all the time. ++I have music in front of me when playing with others just for reference, but I never actually look at notes if playing a concert or for recordings on any instrument. The music notation is too distracting. This might give them more appeal to the general concert going public, and more acceptance by guitarist's. I always felt a little jiped when a guitarist would play a concert sight reading the whole thing, I thought they didn't spend enough time learning the music. ++For me, it is no different whether playing the lute or guitar in terms of whether or not I memoize the music. I really don't care if someone else wants notes in front of them when they are playing. We all have our own approaches to what feels natural. Some people can't live without sheet notation. Others can't wait to memorize the music so the sheet notation can go back in the folder where it belongs. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: "Ed Durbrow" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "lute list" Sent: Monday, March 28, 2005 9:29 PM Subject: memorization/Re: Gallot speaks... > >I've always been curious about the aspect of memorization in lute music. > >In this paragraph Gallot seems to suggest it. Baron advises to memorize in > >the beginning stages of learning, but then goes on to say he's not > >recommending it ( don't have the book handy). > > Sterling Price, has visited a few times, and I was shocked, at how well > >he can sight read, and says this is what everyone does. Up to that point, I > >had two, and working on three, Weiss Sonatas completely memorized. > > > > This for me, not being a professional performer, was allot of RAM to > >store. Since that time I have been only sight reading, but then this seems > >to have it's own short comings as well. Is there a middle ground. > > Could this aspect of memorization be a result of the lute being frozen in > >time, whilst the rest of the musical world went on to fancy memorization ? > >Michael Thames > > Robert Barto told me he tends to memorize when > learning a piece. I think this is the best > approach. After you learn a piece you can go on > to really memorize it or play from tab, where the > tab just reminds you of how it goes. > > One of the biggest mistakes people make, > according to a video I watched about > memorization, is that they work on too large a > chunk at one time. When I'm learning a piece, I > find that I should just work on a phrase and get > it in my ear and fingers and concentrate on > playing lightly and musically. This means taking > a small enough chunk and playing it by memory > while I look at my fingers and analyze what is > going on. It's hard wo
Re: memorization
Dear Michael, You wrote: "I wonder if lute concerts will ever be on the level of guitar concerts where lutenist's have the proper professional stage presence to not be staring at their music all the time. This might give them more appeal to the general concert going public, and more acceptance by guitarist's. I always felt a little jiped when a guitarist would play a concert sight reading the whole thing, I thought they didn't spend enough time learning the music." Funnily enough I don't take great exception to this, although it baffles me as to why you would want to be in the company of lutenists if you think so little of our ability as performers! The paths of lutenists and guitarists diverged 30 years ago - there is a tradition of playing from tablature amongst lutenists, but I would not necessarily equate it with sight reading. I think you will find most lute players spend as much time studying the music and developing their interpretations as any guitarist - it's just a different way of working. The lute repertoire is very significantly larger than that of the classical guitar. Segovia (whom I admire greatly) did much to establish the form and content of the guitar recital format, which included playing from memory, but it has to be said that the content of his performances was predictable. There are only so many times that you want to hear the Bach Chaconne, the Villa Lobos preludes and so on before your ears glaze over, whether played from memory or not. I don't know what others on the list think, but I have certainly noticed a marked reduction in the number of classical guitar recitals since the 1980's and I think the lack of repertoire is very much part of that. Lutenists, by way of contrast, have a sufficient wealth of repertoire to play concert after concert without playing the same piece twice. I'm not claiming that we always do that, but there is great scope for variety. We don't need to hang our careers on grandiose "interpretations" of the same few pieces. Renaissance music is not Romantic music (in the context of the music history definition of the word) - the players role is often to detach one's ego from the performance and let the music speak for itself. So it's a different world to that of the classical guitar - please feel welcome to be part of it, but try to understand that there are reasons why we do things our own way. Best wishes, Denys To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: memorization/Re: Gallot speaks...
Thank you, Ed, for your very interesting and informative message. Please see my comments below. Cheers, Marion -Original Message- From: Ed Durbrow <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Mar 30, 2005 9:04 AM To: lute list Subject: Re: memorization/Re: Gallot speaks... >I would be interested to know if anyone has seen a study >of different methods that musicians use to memorize music. >Such a study would be quite interesting indeed. I've been threatening to right an article about the subject for the LSA Quarterly. Actually, I've already written a great deal, but it is very disorganized and not fit for public consumption. I've been _encouraged_ to get it together. I don't know if I will because I'm a) not a writer and b) not really qualified. Just do a search and you will find all kinds of information on the subject. There are several aspects to musical memorization. Here is a short excerpt of what I have garnered. There are different types of memory. The more different kinds of memory you can draw on, the more solid the memory will likely be. Motor memory: Also known as muscle memory or tactile memory. Everyone seems to agree that muscle memory is the most dangerous or least trustworthy form of memory. ++I think that it is the least realiable form because it is most easily forgotten without constant reinforcement. I play several instruments, all with different tunings and I could not use this method to memorize music if it were all I used. And yet we use it all the time when we sightread. Our eyes are on the printed page, leaving our fingers to find the strings on their own using muscle or motor memory. We've all had the experience of something we've played a hundred times going astray for some reason (nerves?). ++This can happen if we get distracted. Aural memory: That which allows us to hear what comes next. The melody, harmony, form, expression and all the rest that go into the music (aural & analytic), ++This is where I live Using the logic of the music itself, and basing where a piece is going on that logic, may be a form of non verbal thinking, simple aural memory. ++It is absolutely a non-verbal form of memory. For example to it is totally effortless for me to memorize music with relatively few exposures, either listening or playing. To memorize words to a song regardless of language, I need about ten to 50 times more repetitions. Sure I can memorize words to a song but the process involved a totally different part of the brain from tonal memory. Visual memory: recall of the score and symbolic (being able to say the names of the notes). Also recall of the shapes the fingers make on the fretboard. ++You also can use visual memory to memorize what the printed page looks like and then 'read' off of this from memory. I don't usually do not do this because it is not necessary for me. Analytical memory: aka Intellectual memory An analysis of the piece in question will reveal many aspects that can help you memorize it. The more theoretical musical knowledge you have, the more you can draw upon it to aid you to dig into the piece. ++How true. Also being having a 'tape recorder' memory allows you to play mentally anything you can imagine whether you have heard it or not. It allows you to analyze a piece of music without having to have the sheet notation in front of you. You can compare the music to other memorized tonal images and learn facts about music theory without having to read them in a book, having complete control of how fast you can replay the images. Using this technique I have been able to predict, for example, when and where a cadenza will occur in pieces I have not heard before. My hit rate is near 100%. I don't believe it is necessary to have a lot of theoretical knowledge though. If you can explain it to your self you are analyzing. A teacher once told me, 'analysis is making the best case for the piece.' It may be as simple as describing it in mundane terms: it goes up the scale here, has block chords here and then comes to a cadence. Spatial memory:1 This is very important if you have more than one lute. There are few other instruments where the physical dimensions vary so radically from instrument to instrument. Finding the bass strings on a Baroque lute and landing on familiar chord shapes in the left hand would be examples of spatial memory. ++How does this differ from motor memory? Aren't both about spatially where you put your fingers? Maybe it does not include the time aspect. Motor implies motion which includes space and time. Maybe spatial memory is more static. What is your idea on that? Symbolic memory: Some teachers recommend saying out loud the note names, analytical descriptions and other things ++Maybe this works for some people but I am not sure how I would use it. There are also personal aspects that you add, like images or feeli
Re: memorization/Re: Gallot speaks...
> I wonder if lute concerts will ever be on the level of guitar concerts >where lutenist's have the proper professional stage presence to not be >staring at their music all the time. This might give them more appeal to >the general concert going public, and more acceptance by guitarist's. I >always felt a little jiped when a guitarist would play a concert sight >reading the whole thing, I thought they didn't spend enough time learning >the music. Hmm. We had a long thread about this about a year ago on the LuteNet. I certainly don't feel jiped when I hear a concert by Bob Barto or Paul Odette. I notice not too many symphony members playing from memory. :-) For myself, although I have memory lapses, I seem to have even more problems with scores in performance: music blowing away, losing my place, forgetting to put my glasses on etc. cheers, -- Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: memorization/Re: Gallot speaks...
>I would be interested to know if anyone has seen a study >of different methods that musicians use to memorize music. >Such a study would be quite interesting indeed. I've been threatening to right an article about the subject for the LSA Quarterly. Actually, I've already written a great deal, but it is very disorganized and not fit for public consumption. I've been _encouraged_ to get it together. I don't know if I will because I'm a) not a writer and b) not really qualified. Just do a search and you will find all kinds of information on the subject. There are several aspects to musical memorization. Here is a short excerpt of what I have garnered. There are different types of memory. The more different kinds of memory you can draw on, the more solid the memory will likely be. Motor memory: Also known as muscle memory or tactile memory. Everyone seems to agree that muscle memory is the most dangerous or least trustworthy form of memory. We've all had the experience of something we've played a hundred times going astray for some reason (nerves?). Aural memory: That which allows us to hear what comes next. The melody, harmony, form, expression and all the rest that go into the music (aural & analytic), Using the logic of the music itself, and basing where a piece is going on that logic, may be a form of non verbal thinking, simple aural memory. Visual memory: recall of the score and symbolic (being able to say the names of the notes). Also recall of the shapes the fingers make on the fretboard. Analytical memory: aka Intellectual memory An analysis of the piece in question will reveal many aspects that can help you memorize it. The more theoretical musical knowledge you have, the more you can draw upon it to aid you to dig into the piece. I don't believe it is necessary to have a lot of theoretical knowledge though. If you can explain it to your self you are analyzing. A teacher once told me, 'analysis is making the best case for the piece.' It may be as simple as describing it in mundane terms: it goes up the scale here, has block chords here and then comes to a cadence. Spatial memory:1 This is very important if you have more than one lute. There are few other instruments where the physical dimensions vary so radically from instrument to instrument. Finding the bass strings on a Baroque lute and landing on familiar chord shapes in the left hand would be examples of spatial memory. Symbolic memory: Some teachers recommend saying out loud the note names, analytical descriptions and other things There are also personal aspects that you add, like images or feelings associated with certain parts of the piece. I'm not sure if that is a side effect or involved in the memorization process. cheers, (Hey, how come the yen sign doesn't come through email if I offer my 2 yen?) -- Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
