Re: Fixing font spacing in Terminal.app

[Charles Albrecht]

At 8:28 PM -0500 1/8/2003, Erik Price wrote:
>On Wednesday, January 8, 2003, at 10:38  AM, Ken Williams wrote:
>
>>The Allegory of the Cave springs to mind. =)
>
>Is that an Empire Strikes Back reference?
>
>"Luke, the cave... remember your experience at the cave..." -- Yoda

Youngsters these days, >sigh<

-C

Re: Fixing font spacing in Terminal.app

[Erik Price]

On Wednesday, January 8, 2003, at 10:38  AM, Ken Williams wrote:


The funny thing is that I never did find a value (though I played 
with the
plist values) that looked right, so I just learned to live with it, 
and now
it is right, but looks WEIRD!

The Allegory of the Cave springs to mind. =)


Is that an Empire Strikes Back reference?

"Luke, the cave... remember your experience at the cave..." -- Yoda




Erik




--
Erik Price

email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
jabber: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: Fixing font spacing in Terminal.app

[Charles Albrecht]

On 9:38 AM -0600 on 1/8/2003, Ken Williams wrote:
>Not much good anymore.  I'm now just another schmoe trying to figure out how I can 
>use iSync to save the world, and whether I want to switch from Omniweb to Safari.

Some nice features, but with a couple dozen shortcuts leveraging %@ in OmniWeb, I'd 
lose a fair amount of functionality with Safari. Still, the implication that other K 
apps might make it into the OS X userspace with polished interfaces is intriguing...

-C

Re: Fixing font spacing in Terminal.app

[Ken Williams]

On Tuesday, January 7, 2003, at 06:33  PM, Chris Nandor wrote:

I use 120 x 40 too, and had the same problem, also with Monaco 9.  
Great
minds think alike.  :-)

Heh.


The funny thing is that I never did find a value (though I played with 
the
plist values) that looked right, so I just learned to live with it, 
and now
it is right, but looks WEIRD!

The Allegory of the Cave springs to mind. =)



So you broke my Terminal by making it look right, and you can't break
Mac::Carbon on Mac OS X 10.1.5 anymore.  What good ARE you, anyway?  
;-)

Not much good anymore.  I'm now just another schmoe trying to figure 
out how I can use iSync to save the world, and whether I want to switch 
from Omniweb to Safari.

 -Ken

Re: Fixing font spacing in Terminal.app

[Rich & Michaela]

"William H. Magill" wrote:

> This is the real issue.
>
> I've been through many Unix upgrades on many different platforms and
> they all have exactly the same characteristic.
>
> There is hardware which runs releases which run fine on the hardware
> which existed when they were released. But that same hardware has all
> kinds of problems with "new releases" which were developed and
> optimized on "new hardware." Doesn't matter the vendor -- DEC, IBM,
> SUN, SGI, HP they have all have had the same problems. And Linux is an
> unmitigated disaster every time a new release come out, you get to sit
> around and twiddle things for days just to get it to boot.

That has not been my experience. I've run 3 revs on the same HP machine
without problem (9.04-10.2-11.0), 2 full revs and many dot revs on Sun
(SunOS to Solaris 2.1-2.4), ditto for IBM (3.25 to 4.1-4.3.3), and 2 on
Sequent (4.0.4 to 4.4.2 - yeah I know this looks like a dot release, but
trust me it was not).

My first linux box is running RH8.0 now, having gone from 5.2 to 6.2 to 7.1.
All that on a Pentium 133 with 128MB RAM. I have another somewhat newer that
gone 3 steps from 5.2 to 7.1. Neither of these systems has ever failed to
boot as part of the upgrade.

Re: Fixing font spacing in Terminal.app

[Kee Hinckley]

At 1:49 PM -0800 1/7/03, Daniel Stillwaggon wrote:

Same here, had to recompile lynx (btw, the fink lynx didn't work for 
me, I had to download source) and MySQL, but everything else went 
smoothly.

Right, I forgot that one.  MySQL server ran fine, but the client had 
to be recompiled.

In fairness that's not really Apple's fault.  They moved forward a 
major rev of g++, and there were major incompatible changes made in 
the compiler.  I don't know the details, but I gather the performance 
tradeoff had made it worth while for everyone to bite the bullet, but 
shared C++ libraries suffered the compatibility issue.
--

Kee Hinckley - Somewhere.Com, LLC
http://consulting.somewhere.com/

I'm not sure which upsets me more: that people are so unwilling to accept
responsibility for their own actions, or that they are so eager to regulate
everyone else's.

Re: Fixing font spacing in Terminal.app

[Chris Nandor]

In article ,
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Heather Madrone) wrote:

> OTOH, I stuck Perl 5.8 in /usr/local, and I've had no difficulty
> with it whatsoever. 

Yay!

-- 
Chris Nandor  [EMAIL PROTECTED]http://pudge.net/
Open Source Development Network[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://osdn.com/

Re: Fixing font spacing in Terminal.app

[Chris Nandor]

In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Ken Williams) wrote:

> I suppose it depends on the size of your windows - mine are usually 120 
> x 40.  The annoying extra pixel is probably a rounding error spread 
> over the width of the window, so the exact number will probably vary.

I use 120 x 40 too, and had the same problem, also with Monaco 9.  Great 
minds think alike.  :-)

The funny thing is that I never did find a value (though I played with the 
plist values) that looked right, so I just learned to live with it, and now 
it is right, but looks WEIRD!

So you broke my Terminal by making it look right, and you can't break 
Mac::Carbon on Mac OS X 10.1.5 anymore.  What good ARE you, anyway?  ;-)

Thanks,

-- 
Chris Nandor  [EMAIL PROTECTED]http://pudge.net/
Open Source Development Network[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://osdn.com/

Re: Fixing font spacing in Terminal.app

[Rich & Michaela]

Thanks to everyone for the responses. Again I apologize for re-opening this
OT thread. I'm very intrigued now, as several of the respondees are in very
similar circumstances. BTW I have a(n) ibook600 with lot's of UNIX stuff
built/configured/tweaked. I use my machine in a big way at work, so I can't
afford to spend a lot of time getting back to the functionality I have right
now. Otherwise I'd be solely reliant on the company supplied W2K (alias
crash-o-matic) machine. Eeech! Bad enough I have to use it for the usual
office crud (Notes, Project, blah, blah, blah). Thanks again.

-Rich

Puneet Kishor wrote:

>
>
> I have now installed Jaguar on a PB400, iMac350, and iBook600 (all G3
> machines) and all work without any pains or problem of any kind.
>
> And yes, now I can print from all the machines to one cheap printer in
> the house.

Re: Fixing font spacing in Terminal.app

[Daniel Stillwaggon]

Thought that I'd go ahead and provide another data point...

On Tuesday, Jan 7, 2003, at 05:50 US/Pacific, Kee Hinckley wrote:


Well those of us who had a completely painless upgrade obviously don't  
have anything to say.  My upgrade to Jaguar was virtually trouble  
free.  I did have to recompile lynx though.  But my hand-built  
Apache/mod_perl/embperl stuff all continued to work just fine.  As did  
the hundreds of other unix utilities I've built.
Same here, had to recompile lynx (btw, the fink lynx didn't work for  
me, I had to download source) and MySQL, but everything else went  
smoothly.

 
-
Daniel C. Stillwaggon
([EMAIL PROTECTED])

Re: Fixing font spacing in Terminal.app

[William H. Magill]

On Tuesday, January 7, 2003, at 02:37  PM, Jeffrey Melloy wrote:

You really shouldn't seeing any stuff like that that's entirely 
random.  My bet would be bad RAM.  I'd say dig out your hardware 
checkup disk and run it.  If it's not ram, it's almost definitely a 
hardware problem, since that's about the only stuff that runs in 
kernel space.

I concur on this -- out-of-spec RAM... which worked fine in 10.1.5, 
won't work with Jaguar.

It's one aspect of hardware engineering...

Performance optimizations (aka improvements) are frequently made by 
trimming tolerances for things, on the assumption that components will 
adhere to a particular spec. Consequently things which will operate 
within a large tolerance window, will fail when that window size is 
reduced.

In the old days of discrete components things like resistors and 
capacitors came with "tolerance" ratings 1% 10%, etc. A classic example 
of the problem was the original AirPort BaseStation -- they had an 
infant mortality problem (after 53 weeks) caused by  too low a 
tolerance on a couple of components. Replace those two components and 
they run "forever."

Now with the new FireWire 800 and integrated BlueTooth in the new 
powerbooks, it's not much wonder that they won't boot OS 9. While it 
might be possible, it would take a lot of resources to Qual them and 
address all of the "disable this component if" issues.

T.T.F.N.
William H. Magill
# Beige G3 - Rev A motherboard
# Flat-panel iMac (2.1) 800MHz - Super Drive - 768 Meg
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: Fixing font spacing in Terminal.app

[William H. Magill]

On Tuesday, January 7, 2003, at 12:25  PM, Chris Devers wrote:

And no, I haven't messed with Perl or Apache or anything like that. I'm
seeing this behavior on two G3s, of which one behaved this way almost 
from
the start with Jaguar.

This is the real issue.

I've been through many Unix upgrades on many different platforms and 
they all have exactly the same characteristic.

There is hardware which runs releases which run fine on the hardware 
which existed when they were released. But that same hardware has all 
kinds of problems with "new releases" which were developed and 
optimized on "new hardware." Doesn't matter the vendor -- DEC, IBM, 
SUN, SGI, HP they have all have had the same problems. And Linux is an 
unmitigated disaster every time a new release come out, you get to sit 
around and twiddle things for days just to get it to boot.

I have a G4 and G3 as primary machines -- the G4 has been trouble free 
with Jaguar.
The G3 has been a nightmare. But the G3 also has a lot of "add-ons" -- 
like SCSI and extra memory, the G4 is "Apple pure." And the G4 was 
upgraded from 9 to 10 to jaguar, while the G3 has been wiped and 
re-installed an incredible number of times.

So what OS does the new iBook run -- 10.2.3 or 10.2.4?

T.T.F.N.
William H. Magill
# Beige G3 - Rev A motherboard
# Flat-panel iMac (2.1) 800MHz - Super Drive - 768 Meg
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: Fixing font spacing in Terminal.app

[Jeffrey Melloy]

You really shouldn't seeing any stuff like that that's entirely random. 
 My bet would be bad RAM.  I'd say dig out your hardware checkup disk 
and run it.  If it's not ram, it's almost definitely a hardware 
problem, since that's about the only stuff that runs in kernel space.
On Tuesday, January 7, 2003, at 01:18  PM, Heather Madrone wrote:

I thought the Monaco 9 font was incredibly hard to read in the
Terminal app, so I changed it to Courier New and upped the
size to 12.

At 12:25 PM -0500 1/7/03, Chris Devers wrote:

That is, it's much nicer, everything seems to run faster and there's 
a lot
more polish to many of the system applications. But I'm also seeing 
things
like kernel panics & random, fatal interface freezes for the first 
time
since I dunno maybe 10.0.4 or so, and none of the patch releases since
10.2 have corrected these issues.

I'm running on a new Powerbook.  I've finally gotten most of the
wrinkles out of the system, but I also get regular kernel panics
and random freezes.  The system also refuses to shut down
frequently, often with no message.  As I figure out what causes
these events, I change my behavior, but the Powerbook is
definitely flakier than Windows 95, 98, or NT.

OTOH, I stuck Perl 5.8 in /usr/local, and I've had no difficulty
with it whatsoever.

--
Heather Madrone  ([EMAIL PROTECTED])  http://www.madrone.com
Reality: deeper than I dreamed.

Re: Fixing font spacing in Terminal.app

[Heather Madrone]

I thought the Monaco 9 font was incredibly hard to read in the
Terminal app, so I changed it to Courier New and upped the
size to 12.

At 12:25 PM -0500 1/7/03, Chris Devers wrote:
>That is, it's much nicer, everything seems to run faster and there's a lot
>more polish to many of the system applications. But I'm also seeing things
>like kernel panics & random, fatal interface freezes for the first time
>since I dunno maybe 10.0.4 or so, and none of the patch releases since
>10.2 have corrected these issues.

I'm running on a new Powerbook.  I've finally gotten most of the
wrinkles out of the system, but I also get regular kernel panics
and random freezes.  The system also refuses to shut down
frequently, often with no message.  As I figure out what causes
these events, I change my behavior, but the Powerbook is
definitely flakier than Windows 95, 98, or NT.

OTOH, I stuck Perl 5.8 in /usr/local, and I've had no difficulty
with it whatsoever. 

-- 
Heather Madrone  ([EMAIL PROTECTED])  http://www.madrone.com
Reality: deeper than I dreamed.

Re: Fixing font spacing in Terminal.app

[Chris Devers]

On Mon, 6 Jan 2003, Rich & Michaela wrote:

> I've avoided the upgrade to Jaguar for a number of reasons.

Just to be contrary -- as everyone else seems to be saying that Jaguar has
been great for them -- I'll see Ken a "two steps forward and one step
back" and raise you an "the candle that burns twice as bright lasts half
as long."

That is, it's much nicer, everything seems to run faster and there's a lot
more polish to many of the system applications. But I'm also seeing things
like kernel panics & random, fatal interface freezes for the first time
since I dunno maybe 10.0.4 or so, and none of the patch releases since
10.2 have corrected these issues.

And no, I haven't messed with Perl or Apache or anything like that. I'm
seeing this behavior on two G3s, of which one behaved this way almost from
the start with Jaguar.

Then again, as Andrew Langmead has pointed out to me, it's possible that
the hardware on that machine has a flaky memory sector or something, and
I'm willing to accept that -- but it didn't fail this way for the week or
so that I ran it with 10.1 before upgrading. But yeah, both of these
computers are old, and may just Have Issues in the first place.

If you've got newer hardware to run Jaguar on, you might be fine, but in
my experience it has seemed like for all the dozens of enhancements & new
features that Jaguar has brought, there has also been a handful of bugs
and, unfortunately, some of them remain today. That said, the new stuff is
nice enough that, even in spite of the occasional crashes (maybe a couple
per week), I wouldn't want to go back to 10.1 now. Jaguar is better -- I'm
just hoping that 10.3 is a bit more polished :)



-- 
Chris Devers[EMAIL PROTECTED]

regular, adj.
UNIX (Of an expression) irregular; convoluted.

One of the many AUTO-ANTONYMS in the DP laxicon. Regular expressions
are ideal if you want to grep (search) for strings that contain
anagrams of "[]\/*()-!~", end with a period, but do not start with a
caret.

-- from _The Computer Contradictionary_, Stan Kelly-Bootle, 1995

Re: Fixing font spacing in Terminal.app

[Puneet Kishor]

fwiw,

I paid, installed, and have not had any problems whatsoever. If 
anything, previous problems created by me by upgrading Perl and Apache 
all vanished because they got set back to the vendor provided versions.

I have now installed Jaguar on a PB400, iMac350, and iBook600 (all G3 
machines) and all work without any pains or problem of any kind.

And yes, now I can print from all the machines to one cheap printer in 
the house.


On Tuesday, January 7, 2003, at 07:50  AM, Kee Hinckley wrote:

At 11:05 PM -0600 1/6/03, Rich & Michaela wrote:


I've avoided the upgrade to Jaguar for a number of reasons.
 - Annoyed over being charged for what still seems like a maintenance
release to me.


Apple's mistake there was in the numbering, not the charging.  It's 
definitely as much an upgrade as others they have charged for--perhaps 
more. The printing changes alone are worth the price.

 - Listening to all of the pain you folks and others have gone through
getting things to work.


Well those of us who had a completely painless upgrade obviously don't 
have anything to say.  My upgrade to Jaguar was virtually trouble 
free.  I did have to recompile lynx though.  But my hand-built 
Apache/mod_perl/embperl stuff all continued to work just fine.  As did 
the hundreds of other unix utilities I've built.
--

Kee Hinckley - Somewhere.Com, LLC
http://consulting.somewhere.com/

I'm not sure which upsets me more: that people are so unwilling to 
accept
responsibility for their own actions, or that they are so eager to 
regulate
everyone else's.

Re: Fixing font spacing in Terminal.app

[Kee Hinckley]

At 11:05 PM -0600 1/6/03, Rich & Michaela wrote:


I've avoided the upgrade to Jaguar for a number of reasons.
 - Annoyed over being charged for what still seems like a maintenance
release to me.


Apple's mistake there was in the numbering, not the charging.  It's 
definitely as much an upgrade as others they have charged 
for--perhaps more. The printing changes alone are worth the price.

 - Listening to all of the pain you folks and others have gone through
getting things to work.


Well those of us who had a completely painless upgrade obviously 
don't have anything to say.  My upgrade to Jaguar was virtually 
trouble free.  I did have to recompile lynx though.  But my 
hand-built Apache/mod_perl/embperl stuff all continued to work just 
fine.  As did the hundreds of other unix utilities I've built.
--

Kee Hinckley - Somewhere.Com, LLC
http://consulting.somewhere.com/

I'm not sure which upsets me more: that people are so unwilling to accept
responsibility for their own actions, or that they are so eager to regulate
everyone else's.

Re: Fixing font spacing in Terminal.app

[Ken Williams]

On Tuesday, January 7, 2003, at 06:57  AM, Erik Price wrote:

I'm not trying to invalidate the claims of the afflicted, I merely 
want to mention that there's probably at least as many people who 
aren't having problems (and for whom Jaguar offers worthwhile niceties 
that aren't available in 10.1.x, though this is of course subjective). 
 Hopefully you don't encounter any either when you do upgrade.

Yeah, I don't mean to suggest that the upgrade hasn't been worthwhile.  
In almost every functional area, there's been improvement, but it's two 
steps forward, one step back.  There are plenty of visual candy things 
that are nicer now, but this one little font bug was annoying me, and 
now that it's fixed too, I'm even happier.

Also, I wasn't able to build things like libapreq on 10.1.5, but that 
should be much easier on Jag.

 -Ken

Re: Fixing font spacing in Terminal.app

[Pete Prodoehl]

The Jaguar upgrade went fairly smooth for me. I didn't have to do too 
much tweaking and re-customization. I mainly moved to Jaguar for a speed 
increase, and to fix various bugs, especially regarding Windows-related 
things at the office.

My PowerBook remains at 10.1.5 though, since Jaguar won't install on it, 
but as my secondary lesser-used Mac, that's ok.

There are some Jaguar-only apps I'd sure like to run on it though...

Pete


On Tuesday, January 7, 2003, at 12:05  AM, Rich & Michaela wrote:


Sorry for the rant. I don't mean to open up these old threads (wounds),
but I still don't see Jaguar's silver lining. So for now, I'm staying put
at 10.1.5 and hoping that by the time I'm able to buy a new machine (~12
months), that Apple will have gotten things right.

Re: Fixing font spacing in Terminal.app

[Erik Price]

On Tuesday, January 7, 2003, at 12:05  AM, Rich & Michaela wrote:


Sorry for the rant. I don't mean to open up these old threads (wounds),
but I still don't see Jaguar's silver lining. So for now, I'm staying 
put
at 10.1.5 and hoping that by the time I'm able to buy a new machine 
(~12
months), that Apple will have gotten things right.

FWIW, I upgraded to Jaguar a few months ago and have not encountered 
any bugs that weren't already present, despite the fact that I do see a 
lot of Jaguar bugs talked about on the various OS X mailing lists.  In 
fact, a lot of little issues went away.  I'm cautious about upgrading 
to point releases (currently still at 10.2.2), usually waiting at least 
a week to see what kinds of problems could happen, but so far I guess 
I've been lucky with my 500mhz iBook.

I'm not trying to invalidate the claims of the afflicted, I merely want 
to mention that there's probably at least as many people who aren't 
having problems (and for whom Jaguar offers worthwhile niceties that 
aren't available in 10.1.x, though this is of course subjective).  
Hopefully you don't encounter any either when you do upgrade.



Erik




--
Erik Price

email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
jabber: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: Fixing font spacing in Terminal.app

[Rich & Michaela]

I've avoided the upgrade to Jaguar for a number of reasons.
 - Annoyed over being charged for what still seems like a maintenance
release to me.
 - Listening to all of the pain you folks and others have gone through
getting things to work.

I'd really like to get there, but I have dozens (hundreds?) of hours
getting everything I want/need working under 10.1.5 (perl 5.6.1, upgraded
apache w/php, tomcat, mod_perl, XDarwin, perl/tk, Tcl/Tk, etc.). My ibook
is everything I expected, and more, but I can't bear the thought of
reliving all of that pain and paying Apple ~$90 for the priviledge.

Sorry for the rant. I don't mean to open up these old threads (wounds),
but I still don't see Jaguar's silver lining. So for now, I'm staying put
at 10.1.5 and hoping that by the time I'm able to buy a new machine (~12
months), that Apple will have gotten things right.

-Rich

Ken Williams wrote:

> > (I still want the ATS guys to fix this bug, however... :)
>
> Yeah, likewise.
>
>   -Ken

Re: Fixing font spacing in Terminal.app

[Ken Williams]

On Monday, January 6, 2003, at 03:48  PM, John Siracusa wrote:


On 1/6/03 4:40 PM, John Siracusa wrote:

On 1/6/03 4:15 PM, Ken Williams wrote:

What finally worked was to add the following to any of my .term 
files,
and to ~/Library/Preferences/com.apple.Terminal.plist :

   FontWidthSpacing
   1.002

Hm, doesn't work for me.  Also, my plist files have the value in
 tags, not .  I tried it both ways and neither 
fixed
the problem.

Huh...I changed it to 1.003 and now it works!


I suppose it depends on the size of your windows - mine are usually 120 
x 40.  The annoying extra pixel is probably a rounding error spread 
over the width of the window, so the exact number will probably vary.


(I still want the ATS guys to fix this bug, however... :)


Yeah, likewise.

 -Ken

Re: Fixing font spacing in Terminal.app

[John Siracusa]

On 1/6/03 4:40 PM, John Siracusa wrote:
> On 1/6/03 4:15 PM, Ken Williams wrote:
>> What finally worked was to add the following to any of my .term files,
>> and to ~/Library/Preferences/com.apple.Terminal.plist :
>> 
>>FontWidthSpacing
>>1.002
> 
> Hm, doesn't work for me.  Also, my plist files have the value in
>  tags, not .  I tried it both ways and neither fixed
> the problem.

Huh...I changed it to 1.003 and now it works!

(I still want the ATS guys to fix this bug, however... :)
-John

Re: Fixing font spacing in Terminal.app

[John Siracusa]

On 1/6/03 4:15 PM, Ken Williams wrote:
> What finally worked was to add the following to any of my .term files,
> and to ~/Library/Preferences/com.apple.Terminal.plist :
> 
>FontWidthSpacing
>1.002

Hm, doesn't work for me.  Also, my plist files have the value in
 tags, not .  I tried it both ways and neither fixed
the problem.

-John