Re: [Marxism] Mangling the Party: Vol. 1 of Tony Cliff's Lenin By Pham Binh
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Good point, Tom Paddy -Original Message- From: marxism-bounces+e.c.apling=btinternet@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu [mailto:marxism-bounces+e.c.apling=btinternet@greenhouse.economics.utah. edu] On Behalf Of Tom Cod Sent: 25 January 2012 8:20 PM To: e.c.apl...@btinternet.com Subject: Re: [Marxism] Mangling the Party: Vol. 1 of Tony Cliff's Lenin By Pham Binh == Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Why is this important? Seems like a lot of contrived sectarian venom about an obscure historical issue, worthy of the Healyites, aimed at a trend that has done much to build the mass movement in recent years. Thus, with all due respect it seems like an exercise in misguided and unproductive pedantry of very marginal relevance coming from someone who should know better. On Wed, Jan 25, 2012 at 8:08 AM, Louis Proyect l...@panix.com wrote: == Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == A very important contribution: http://louisproyect.wordpress.com/2012/01/25/mangling-the-party-vol-1- of-tony-cliffs-lenin-by-pham-binh/ Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/e.c.apling%40bt internet.com Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Journal Access
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Hallo Bill (and Ismail Lagardien - who you quoted), I managed to piece together the link to the Guardian article, with which I highly agree - as now, after 25 years in retirement, I really only have web-access to academic material - even though, as a fellow of the Royal Society of Chemistry I still have access to a wide section of the literature - I am constantly being frustrated with web demands for large fees to access to more than the author's abstract of a scientific article. I really cannot understand why authors put up with it. Why do they not simply publish in the journals of their professional societies who, in general, grant much greater access? They do not get PAID for contributing to a commercial academic journal, although, of course, I am aware that more and more - because of financial problems - professional societies are tending to demand PAYMENT by authors for publication (equally to be abhorred, but often this can come out of a research grant). Maybe the commercial publications are seen as a way round the need for by-passing the critical peer review of the professional publications? In which case perhaps THIS is also something which should be under discussion - as this may well be used to suppress the publication of unorthodox and unwelcome viewpoints - which is also a burning question. You have raised a very important issue - which is not simply a question of money-making - but really about the general tendency nowadays to limit discussion on sensitive and controversial topics. Paddy http://apling.freeservers.com -Original Message- From: marxism-bounces+e.c.apling=btinternet@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu [mailto:marxism-bounces+e.c.apling=btinternet@greenhouse.economics.utah. edu] On Behalf Of Bill Quimby Sent: 29 December 2011 10:23 PM To: e.c.apl...@btinternet.com Subject: Re: [Marxism] Journal Access == Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == You know, what's interesting is that, while the JSTOR's and other databases have held a rigid monopoly for the last 15 - possibly 20? - years, it is only in the last few years that a groundswell has risen to challenge that monopoly for the benefit of the serious reader/independent researcher. Does that mean that the audience has become more sophisticated and demanding in its reading? And in reference to the note from ??? that Yale now offers its alumni access to JSTOR, it always struck me as strange that (still true for most) once you graduate you fall into the dark abyss of the unknowing, content with the knowledge that was useful to the time you graduated, no matter how long ago that was! - Bill On 12/29/2011 3:18 PM, Ismail Lagardien wrote: == Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Excellent discussion underway on my Critical Realism discussion list (yeah, yeah, I'm a Critical Realist), about open access to academic journals. The following article was circulated. In case anyone hasn't come across this article yet, it's worth a read: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/aug/29/academic-publisher s-murdoch-socialist Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/quimbywm% 40gmail.com Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/e.c.apling%40bt internet.com Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Sympathy for the devil: Film justifies Thatcher's crimes
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Quite possibly - but don't you realise how dumb the 1% are - just think how Gogol's and even Mozart's quite obviously revolutionary works escaped the censorship of the Russian and Austrian autocracy !! Mind you, I haven't seen the film in question - so it might change m view of the situation Paddy http://apling.freeservers.com -Original Message- From: marxism-bounces+e.c.apling=btinternet@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu [mailto:marxism-bounces+e.c.apling=btinternet@greenhouse.economics.utah. edu] On Behalf Of Tom Cod Sent: 30 December 2011 5:39 PM To: e.c.apl...@btinternet.com Subject: Re: [Marxism] Sympathy for the devil: Film justifies Thatcher's crimes == Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == then why are right wing pundits praising it? maybe they haven't viewed it? On Thu, Dec 29, 2011 at 5:14 PM, Louis Proyect l...@panix.com wrote: I beg to differ. The Thatcher depicted in this film is really quite unsympathetic. There is a scene in which she browbeats her cabinet over a regressive tax that she supports despite their advice that it will be seen by Britons as favoring the rich. There is no question that the script was informed by recent events. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/e.c.apling%40bt internet.com Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] John Pilger article on Libya!
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Hear, Hear. On Libya John Pilger has gone right up the gum tree. Meanwhile Jacobin has got it absolutely correct !! Paddy http://apling.freeservers.com -Original Message- From: marxism-bounces+e.c.apling=btinternet@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu [mailto:marxism-bounces+e.c.apling=btinternet@greenhouse.economics.utah. edu] On Behalf Of Louis Proyect Sent: 14 September 2011 4:04 PM To: e.c.apl...@btinternet.com Subject: Re: [Marxism] John Pilger article on Libya! On 9/14/2011 10:54 AM, MARIAN BRAIN wrote: http://www.morningstaronline.co.uk/index.php/news/content/view/full/109451 Bilge from Pilger: US diplomatic cables released by WikiLeaks disclose the West's panic over Gadaffi's refusal to hand over the greatest reserves of oil in Africa and his overtures to China and Russia. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Latest on Libya
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Good for Martin Shaw (namesake of a local leading actor in the BBC1 TV series Inspector George Gently who I have several times almost barged into in the local village - no, it calls itself town as it has a charter for a market from Henry [what number woz it?] post office or newsagents) Who gives a good summary of the Libyan developments at http://www.opendemocracy.net/martin-shaw/libya-revolution-intervention-dyna mic?utm_source=feedblitzutm_medium=FeedBlitzEmailutm_content=201210utm_ca mpaign=Nightly_%272011-09-05%2005%3a30%3a00%27 = final para: For the moment, Nato's success gives a boost to western governments, which have little else to celebrate as their economies stall. And it puts governments like the Russian and Chinese, which permitted the Libyan venture with some reluctance, on the defensive. But Libya's transformation may give new life to the Arab upheavals, such as in Syria. There will then be more shocks on the way, and none of the world's governments can be confident of its future in a world in which the people are once again on the march. = March on comrades - and expand the march !! Paddy http://apling.freeservers.com Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] EEC politics and the economy
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Open Democracy today carries a notable article by Grazia letto Gillies, an Italian economist living and working in London. She is Emeritus Professor of Applied Economics, London South Bank University and Visiting Professor, Birkbeck University of London. She is one of the initiators of the World Economics Association (www.worldeconomicsassociation.org). She has published extensively on the economics of Transnational Companies and on Globalization. The article is written in a way which I believe jibes very well with the attitude to the dominant political-economy if the majority of followers of this list. Paddy http://apling.freeservers.com __ The thought-provoking piece by Rossana Rossanda that started the debate on The road to Europe in Sbilanciamoci.info, il Manifesto and OpenDemocracy raises the issue of whether political integration should have preceded economic integration. My feeling is that it may not so much be a problem of the timing of the two types of integration but of the type of Union we created and under what type of ideological context. The European Monetary Union has been conceived and realized under the banner of neoliberalism and of the neoclassical economic paradigm: markets are efficient; they, through their price mechanism, are the best allocator of resources. They are the best regulators of economic activities, not the State. This ideology is antithetic to social cohesion both within and between countries. We could have built a different type of European Union, within a different ideological, economic and political context: one in which the markets could have played a role but under the power of the State to regulate them for the benefit of all; one in which social cohesion within and between European States could have played a large role. In such an ideological context, economic, political and social integration would necessarily have gone hand-in-hand and the issue of timing of economic versus political integration would not have arisen. But this would have required adherence to different economic paradigms and a different political starting point. These are, of course, counterfactual scenarios. Before I go back to full reality, let me start my analysis of the economic situation with another counterfactual assumption: a visit to Earth from a Martian. Were a Martian to visit Earth in the XXI century, she would have observed the following: (a) an enormous quantity of resources - human, technological and capital resources - allocated to the production of so-called financial products which seem to her totally useless; (b) people who work or invest in these products earn much more than the rest of the population; and (c) most Earthlings appear to be in need of basic products from food to roads and transportation to health services and education. Why, on Earth, are the resources not allocated to more useful production? . etc. Full article at http://www.opendemocracy.net/grazia-ietto-gillies/road-to-europe-return-of- state?utm_source=feedblitzutm_medium=FeedBlitzEmailutm_content=201210utm_ campaign=Nightly_2011-09-04%2005%3a30 Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] US Militant greets NATO-backed rebel victory in Libya
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Thanks for your comment, comrade. I have to admit, as an 86-yr old veteran, that I am bemused by the discussion going on in the left about Libya, Syria, Afghanistan and all: Binh on Lou's blog made the best comparison of all - it is 1848 all over again, but now in the Arab world, with the decadent West trying their hardest to interfere to their own advantage. Our necessity seems so clear to me - WE NEED a SPRING HERE !! and let the Arabs develop THEIR OWN revolution - perhaps they will do better than we did - and I do hope so. Paddy http://apling.freeservers.com -Original Message- From: marxism-bounces+e.c.apling=btinternet@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu [mailto:marxism-bounces+e.c.apling=btinternet@greenhouse.economics.utah. edu] On Behalf Of Manuel Barrera Sent: 28 August 2011 1:03 AM To: e.c.apl...@btinternet.com Subject: Re: [Marxism] US Militant greets NATO-backed rebel victory in Libya Paddy says: Consider the situation dialectically comrades - and just follow events - FIRST OF ALL just recognise that we are just viewers from outside: it is Libyans who will decide - who will fight, and die, in the fight for a better society. I - and I hope all others on this list - just hope, with all our hearts, that the best of Libyan common society will win out in the end. All I can say here, is Paddy, you're a good guy! Indeed! Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] US Militant greets NATO-backed rebel victory in Libya
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == OH so many thanks for that contribution Lou. I feel like saying flattery will get you nowhere; but I DO think comrades SHOULD read Binh's contribution several times and THINK for yourselves, and perhaps follow up with re-reading Karl's contributions to discussion of 1848, and not least, of course, the Communist Manifesto. We are in EXCITING times: for the Arab world it IS their 1848; for us we are pawns in the global crisis of capitalism, in a situation which even Lenin had never seen the like. Our understanding of how to apply Marxist dialectics has never been so tried before. And do not forget that when the Communist Manifesto talks of the party, Marx and Engels were not thinking of the CPSU(b), the CPGB, the CPI, or the CPUSA - but of all the working class (and I think, at that time of the first beginnings of industrial capitalism, they were thinking of the whole of the common people - Burke's mob or great unwashed. We HAVE to create this unity once again. At 20 I was a young tank officer in the British Army looking forward to fighting to end fascism; now I can only watch - and hope that this century's 20 yr-olds will have better success. Paddy http://apling.freeservers.com -Original Message- From: marxism-bounces+e.c.apling=btinternet@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu [mailto:marxism-bounces+e.c.apling=btinternet@greenhouse.economics.utah. edu] On Behalf Of Louis Proyect Sent: 28 August 2011 1:34 AM To: e.c.apl...@btinternet.com Subject: Re: [Marxism] US Militant greets NATO-backed rebel victory in Libya snip On a Saturday afternoon in early January I had the distinct pleasure to meet with E.C. Paddy Apling, an 84 year old Marxmail subscriber who like dozens of others over the years have looked me up in New York City. I believe that most have found me quite amiable in person in contrast to my carefully cultivated mad dog internet persona. I was particularly interested in meeting a veteran of the 30s and 40s period since I share my friend Paul Buhle's commitment to oral history. I was also involved in an oral history project with an old friend from the SWP who has done video interviews with that truly greatest generation, namely those who stood up to capitalism and imperialism during the darkest hours of humanity. Despite being called Paddy, he is not Irish. As a youth, he found his birth name Edward Chatterton a bit stuffy for his taste. Paddy explained to me that when he was very young (5-10), he used to stay at his aunt's big farm house, which had three staircases (one with doors top and bottom leading to the servants' quarters), where he would hide from the elders, especially the formidable Aunt Kate who would summon him as if in a Dickens novel: Edward Chatterton, come here at once. This persuaded him through a kind of aversion therapy to adopt another name. The name Paddy came from a show in London in 1924 called Paddy the Next Best Thing (his mother had been hoping for a girl.) full: http://louisproyect.wordpress.com/2009/01/27/ec-paddy-apling/ Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/e.c.apling%40bt internet.com Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Hurricane report
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == This rather looks like a case of wolf, wolf - in which case there may be real trouble when a future hurricane DOES hit New York. Paddy http://apling.freeservers.com -Original Message- From: marxism-bounces+e.c.apling=btinternet@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu [mailto:marxism-bounces+e.c.apling=btinternet@greenhouse.economics.utah. edu] On Behalf Of Les Schaffer Sent: 28 August 2011 2:42 PM To: e.c.apl...@btinternet.com Subject: Re: [Marxism] Hurricane report == Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On 8/28/11 9:15 AM, Louis Proyect wrote: Weird. The hurricane is supposedly landing down in NYC now but as I look outside the rain has stopped and there is no wind. from the radar maps it looks like you are right near the eye. les Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/e.c.apling%40bt internet.com Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Gilbert Achcar interview
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Don't some people enjoy arguing about irrelevancies !! Paddy http://apling.freeservers.com -Original Message- From: marxism-bounces+e.c.apling=btinternet@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu [mailto:marxism-bounces+e.c.apling=btinternet@greenhouse.economics.utah. edu] On Behalf Of Greg McDonald Sent: 28 August 2011 2:55 PM To: e.c.apl...@btinternet.com Subject: Re: [Marxism] Gilbert Achcar interview == Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Simply by stressing the higher number Achcar demonstrates his bias. Of course, his essay is somewhat dependent on these figures being in the higher range, no? But if he had quoted the entire range of numbers being put out there, it would have been obvious that no one really knows how many people died, thus weakening his argument. And as Lenin's Tomb has just demonstrated, the 10,000 figure, a nice round number, was seemingly picked out of the air. One certainly expects more rigor from such an accomplished scholar as Achcar. Greg On Sun, Aug 28, 2011 at 9:38 AM, Jeff meis...@xs4all.nl wrote: At 09:32 28/08/11 -0400, you wrote: One must note the widely divergent numbers, and the fact that Achcar picked the most inflated count. No he did NOT pick that number at all. Here is what he originally said (unless we're just going to, again, discuss what someone said he said): Achcar: it is estimated that the number of people killed in Syria has reached 2,200. The range of estimates of the number of people who were killed in Libya in the first month alone, before the Western intervention, starts at more than that figure and reaches 10,000. Period. - Jeff Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/e.c.apling%40bt internet.com Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Repeatedly misquoting Achcar :-(
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == So what? Let us end this stupid and irrelevant argument. Paddy http://apling.freeservers.com -Original Message- From: marxism-bounces+e.c.apling=btinternet@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu [mailto:marxism-bounces+e.c.apling=btinternet@greenhouse.economics.utah. edu] On Behalf Of Lenin's Tomb Sent: 28 August 2011 3:43 PM To: e.c.apl...@btinternet.com Subject: Re: [Marxism] Repeatedly misquoting Achcar :-( On 28/08/2011 15:25, Jeff wrote: This is getting silly, where I have to go back and make such simple (but conveniently ignored!) corrections to misquotes. Rather than pointing out that the statement is probably true, that certain sources made that claim, I see one problem. As far as I can possibly tell, that article is NOT by Achcar! I'm afraid the silliness is entirely on your side. I did not allege that Achcar had written the article, as you might have gathered had you followed what you're commenting on. The cited source for the claim of up to 10,000 deaths in the first month of war in Libya was a wikipedia entry, which adduced a claim supposedly made by the ICC. In the article by Achcar that you cite, he also alleges that the ICC are responsible for the figure of 10,000 deaths. snip Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Hurricane report
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Wolf ! Wolf ! it was !! Let's press the panic button; that'll keep 'em in line. But when the wolf does not come? What then? Paddy http://apling.freeservers.com -Original Message- From: marxism-bounces+e.c.apling=btinternet@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu [mailto:marxism-bounces+e.c.apling=btinternet@greenhouse.economics.utah. edu] On Behalf Of Louis Proyect Sent: 28 August 2011 4:13 PM To: e.c.apl...@btinternet.com Subject: Re: [Marxism] Hurricane report snip I am no conspiracy theorist but I wonder if all the hoopla had something to do with a much bigger disaster, loss of jobs, foreclosures, etc. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Repeatedly misquoting Achcar :-(
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == It is just revolutionary politics we want to return to - in place of side=tracking and useless arguments about nothing. Paddy http://apling.freeservers.com -Original Message- From: marxism-bounces+e.c.apling=btinternet@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu [mailto:marxism-bounces+e.c.apling=btinternet@greenhouse.economics.utah. edu] On Behalf Of Lenin's Tomb Sent: 28 August 2011 4:22 PM To: e.c.apl...@btinternet.com Subject: Re: [Marxism] Repeatedly misquoting Achcar :-( On 28/08/2011 16:09, Paddy Apling wrote: So what? Let us end this stupid and irrelevant argument. Of course, you're always welcome to go for a stroll, pick daisies, watch a DVD, have a bubble bath or whatever else takes your fancy. For my part, I find politics interesting. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Hurricane report
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == We had the same phenomenon in UK after the terrific storm in 1987 which tore p vast area of protected forests in Surrey and all the trees along the riverside and round the Exhibition area in Norwich - not forecast by the Met service (who, in fact forecast a quiet night) - then for several years we had dire forecasts - one after the other - until everybody got completely sceptical about their weather forecasting. Recently their accuracy seems to have vastly improved - but still it is often more pessimistic than the event - and floods or torrential rain always seem to come without warning !! Meteorological (and ANY forecasting) is full of problems . (and always has to be taken with a pinch of salt !!) Paddy http://apling.freeservers.com -Original Message- From: marxism-bounces+e.c.apling=btinternet@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu [mailto:marxism-bounces+e.c.apling=btinternet@greenhouse.economics.utah. edu] On Behalf Of farmela...@juno.com Sent: 28 August 2011 4:30 PM To: e.c.apl...@btinternet.com Subject: Re: [Marxism] Hurricane report == Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == The fact is that every winter in the northeastern USA, we get storms known as northeaster. These storms are typically at least as powerful as Irene, with comparable wind speeds, and are often much more destructive, since these storms bring heavy snow rather than rain. We had storms last winter that caused much more destruction than Irene has, thus far. And we will probably experience more of the same this winter too. Those storms too, get really hyped up by the media, but the hype over Irene seems rather silly IMO. I suspect that a combination of factors is behind the hype over Irene. From the standpoint of media outlets, late summer before Labor Day, is a typical slow news period, so a big storm is a godsend for them. Then there is some reason to believe that some of the Obama people might be looking forward to using the storm as a way for providing a new economic stimulus in the form of disaster relief. Paul Krugman has been suggesting just that, and some of the GOP, like Eric Cantor, fearing that might happen, have asserted that any increases in government spending for storm relief must be compensated for by spending cuts elsewhere. Jim Farmelant http://independent.academia.edu/JimFarmelant -- Original Message -- From: Louis Proyect l...@panix.com To: farmela...@juno.com Subject: Re: [Marxism] Hurricane report Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2011 11:12:35 -0400 == Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On 8/28/11 11:06 AM, Greg McDonald wrote: http://content.usatoday.com/communities/ondeadline/post/2011/08/tornado-warn ing-issued-for-brooklyn-queens/1?csp=34news In spite of all the warnings, 11 people have died. I don't think it's a cry wolf scenario at all. As everyone knows, such storms can spawn tornados, flooding, downed trees, etc. Greg I am no meteorologist but I was skeptical of the worst case scenario for NYC all along. By definition a hurricane loses strength when it moves from the ocean, where it is fed by warm water currents, into land. Right now, the rain has stopped in NYC and there is no wind. In fact, I have not seen evidence of strong winds since yesterday. Right now CBS is reporting that there is not much evidence of fallen trees in Central Park. A couple of years ago a nasty localized storm brought down dozens. I am no conspiracy theorist but I wonder if all the hoopla had something to do with a much bigger disaster, loss of jobs, foreclosures, etc. Penny Stock Jumping 3000% Sign up to the #1 voted penny stock newsletter for free today! http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/4e5a5f228b215933526st05vuc Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/e.c.apling%40bt internet.com Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] US Militant greets NATO-backed rebel victory in Libya
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == This is not a civil war - it is a revolution started by the common people which has (partially, I still believe) been taken over by a new portion of the former elite, who are just out to replace Gaddaffi by their own group. But it is MUCH TOO SOON to write it off as a civil war, as there is quite clearly a very real and common (i.e lower class !! - am I an elitist tho' a Marxist to use such terms? But how else can ne express it - here is a gap in the language which makes it difficult to express ) But this is NOT a civil war = it is a rebellion of the masses, which has been partially taken over by a portion of the old elite who have seen that things cannot got go on in the old way... but that is why the revolution started and the section of the old elite presently in command really represent the old way, but with THEM in command . they will have their work cut out to control the demands of the masses Consider the situation dialectically comrades - and just follow events - FIRST OF ALL just recognise that we are just viewers from outside: it is Libyans who will decide - who will fight, and die, in the fight for a better society. I - and I hope all others on this list - just hope, with all our hearts, that the best of Libyan common society will win out in the end. MEANWHILE - there are pressing problems at home, which we CAN FIGHT TO RESOLVE - How to get a similar percentage of the British or American working people determined to get change their situation is OUR problem - Just cheer the Libyam people on !! Paddy http://apling.freeservers.com -Original Message- From: marxism-bounces+e.c.apling=btinternet@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu [mailto:marxism-bounces+e.c.apling=btinternet@greenhouse.economics.utah. edu] On Behalf Of Louis Proyect Sent: 27 August 2011 3:31 PM To: e.c.apl...@btinternet.com Subject: Re: [Marxism] US Militant greets NATO-backed rebel victory in Libya On 10/27/11 10:18 AM, Fred Feldman wrote: http://www.themilitant.com/2011/7531/753102.html Rebel forces take Tripoli in Libyan civil war (front page) Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Gilbert Achcar interview
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Andrew Pollack wrote 27 August 2011 7:20 PM Jeff, do you or do you not support imperialist bombing? Louis? And Louis all your parallels are nonsequiturs, and don't let Achcar off the hook. Gerry Foley correctly opposed the neoStalinists who objected to criticism of Milosevic. SA today correctly opposes the neoStalinists (including especially in the US!) who object to criticism (what they still call demonization!) of Qaddafi (and Assad and Ahmedinejad etc.) SA yesterday and today opposes imperialist bombing. Why don't you? [Paddy Apling]: What a collection of loaded (rhetorical) questions !! ALL of us are against imperialist warmongering, drones, bombing the lot. But SOME of it (some of it, such as that aimed at undoing Gaddafi, is LESS reprehensible than the ditto in Afganistan or - with drones - in Pakistan, simply because in Libya the final effect of imperialist intervention in still arguable and still to be determined by future events. For UK the main anti-imperialist struggle should be to wind up the FOURTH British (ENGLISH) invasion of Afghanistan (even tho' this invasion is led by the Yanks [word used just to show my feelings of national inferiority !!]) If the imperialists are sufficiently stupid to assist a revolution in Libya (because they HOPE to benefit) I have sufficient confidence in the common people (even of Libya, if you think their feelings are so different from ours) to think it is likely to finally work out to THEIR benefit (it is up to THEM and our influence is NIL) Paddy http://apling.freeservers.com Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] For the defeat or unconditional end of the NATO war on Libya
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == AN excellent presentation of the problem of Libya by Manuel, of course we all must be both against Ghaddafi and against the imperialist intervention -Original Message- From: marxism-bounces+e.c.apling=btinternet@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu [mailto:marxism-bounces+e.c.apling=btinternet@greenhouse.economics.utah. edu] On Behalf Of Manuel Barrera Sent: 20 July 2011 12:18 AM To: e.c.apl...@btinternet.com Subject: Re: [Marxism] For the defeat or unconditional end of the NATO war on Libya clip there is no need to take a side on whether the rebels are now bad or that Gadhafi is now good because imperialism wants him out. We Are Not Libyans! It Is Not Our Place and To Make It Our Place is the Height of Condescension or Outright Chauvinism. Our only place is to stand against the imperialist intervention--to a person--so that the Libyan masses may be able to find their own way to struggle against their own twin evils; Gadhafi and any pro-imperialist forces that crop up. If indeed the rebellion is defeated, though I still hold out that may not be (maybe on this point I can accept a tendency to being overly optimistic), the best way that democracy (and the prospects for a workers' victory) can be achieved is if we can remove imperialism from the picture. That is why, for me, U.S./NATO Out Now has no qualification. I do care that Gadhafi remains in power because the defeat of the rebellion means his position is strengthened, which means the working masses of Libya are pressed back, which means that it will make it more difficult to have Libya enter the struggle for democracy in North Africa, etc, etc. In short, I Do Not Need To Support Gadhafi To Oppose Imperialism. I can do that just fine without ceding anything to a murderer and plunderer of the people. To be sure, even if there is a temporary defeat of the Libyan masses and even if the pro-imperialist forces succeed in removing Gadhafi, it will not matter in the end because the Libyan people will be victorious in any case albeit differently than any of us may wish; that is, I am sure no one on this list will relish the repression of the masses that will surely come with either a U.S./NATO victory or by Gadhafi thereby prolonging Libya's march to real democracy. I remain supremely confident in the Libyan people, have no confidence or truck with Gadhafi, and just as less for his imperialist masters. Why is this so difficult to understand? Why is remaining true to revolutionary principles considered non reality and lesser-evilism considered realistic--you know, for revolutionaries? Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Moderator's note
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Yes, Les That is just what I meant by saying he ASKED to be unsubbed - I should have explained better. The rest was general comment on his political attitude. Paddy -Original Message- From: marxism-bounces+e.c.apling=btinternet@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu [mailto:marxism-bounces+e.c.apling=btinternet@greenhouse.economics.utah. edu] On Behalf Of Les Schaffer Sent: 16 June 2011 12:28 PM To: e.c.apl...@btinternet.com Subject: Re: [Marxism] Moderator's note On 06/16/2011 07:18 AM, Paddy Apling wrote: Jay just ASKED to be unsubbed, after proving to most on this list that he is just one of those revolutionaries who are completely incapable of understanding the complexities of real revolutions - in which always there will always be situations where political positions based on principles are irrelevant. as far as i am concerned this is NOT why Jay was unsubbed. when Jay cools it with putting words into other peoples mouths he can come back on and argue *his* case till he's blue in the face. Les Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Radioactivity
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Events in Japan have reignited controversy around the safety of nuclear energy, reviving memories of the world's worst nuclear accident, at Chernobyl. But just how bad was the worst? What were the real health consequences of Chernobyl? On the 25th anniversary of the disaster Nick Ross travels to Ukraine, to the ruined plant itself, to meet survivors and to talk to scientists and doctors to try to unravel the truth. Has Chernobyl turned out to be the health catastrophe that anti-nuclear campaigners claim? How much of our fear of radiation is rational and how much is based on myth and propaganda surrounding the Chernobyl accident? Producer: Brian King An Above The Title production for BBC Radio 4. On BBC Radio4 at 1700 BST today. Listen and consider Paddy http://apling.freeservers.com Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Achcar's latest on Libya
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Lou has led us to an excellent article, which shows a full appreciation of the dialectical nature of the situation in Libya and its importance for the rest of the Arab Spring, together with a full appreciation of the necessity for the whole European Left to aim to unite behind the slogans: Stop the bombing! Deliver arms to the insurgents! Paddy http://apling.freeservers.com -Original Message- From: marxism-bounces+e.c.apling=btinternet@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu [mailto:marxism-bounces+e.c.apling=btinternet@greenhouse.economics.utah. edu] On Behalf Of Louis Proyect Sent: 24 April 2011 2:47 PM To: e.c.apl...@btinternet.com Subject: [Marxism] Achcar's latest on Libya http://www.zcommunications.org/the-libyan-insurrection-between-gaddafis-hamm er-natos-anvil-and-the-lefts-confusion-results-and-prospects-by-gilbert-achc ar Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Environmental safety
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Halo DW and others, The line 99 calories per biscuit came at the bottom of the advertising blurb I was opposing - notice it was not ticked - and it was probably a mistake to have included that line, as it has obviously caused confusion to both you and Les. (It is really a summary line of the nutritional information block repeated from elsewhere on the pack - and, of course, I SUPPORT that !!) ... Paddy http://apling.freeservers.com -Original Message- From: marxism-bounces+e.c.apling=btinternet@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu [mailto:marxism-bounces+e.c.apling=btinternet@greenhouse.economics.utah. edu] On Behalf Of DW Sent: 19 April 2011 1:31 AM To: e.c.apl...@btinternet.com Subject: Re: [Marxism] Environmental safety I am very glad that food labeling is going universal. Paddy was extremely vague as to what exactly he was opposing with regards to calorie counts in processed foods. Perhaps he can elaborate. We had calories counts with processed food for a good many years before the actual contents were broken down into sodium, carbs (and what kind of carbs) and so on. I'm glad it is all there. As a diabetic I *need* the food companies to spend the money to examine what their food is composed of. There are 10s of millions in the US alone that rely on this information. David Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Of the 1%, by the 1%, for the 1%
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == I so much agree with you, comrade, very well put !! But, it is not just the USA. Absolutely the same applies in UK, the EU, India, Phillipines - wherever. All these peoples have to bite the bit that the Arabs have just bitten (or, at least starting biting - because as so many of our more-left-wing comrades are constantly suggesting, their present struggles, when won only promise to land them in the mess WE are in !! The whole point we all have to understand is that we NEVER know the end of the struggle - the REALLY IMPORTANT thing is to CONTUNUE and EXPAND the struggle, with the MAXIMUM UNITY along with the mass of the people - who with no theoretical understanding of the political situation or the theory of socialism or Marxism - still understand (or are on the VERGE of understanding) the need to struggle against that 1% of 1% who dominate EVERYTHING. Paddy http://apling.freeservers.com -Original Message- From: marxism-bounces+e.c.apling=btinternet@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu [mailto:marxism-bounces+e.c.apling=btinternet@greenhouse.economics.utah. edu] On Behalf Of Bonnie Weinstein Sent: 13 April 2011 5:46 PM To: e.c.apl...@btinternet.com Subject: [Marxism] Of the 1%, by the 1%, for the 1% Of the 1%, by the 1%, for the 1% Americans have been watching protests against oppressive regimes that concentrate massive wealth in the hands of an elite few. Yet in our own democracy, 1 percent of the people take nearly a quarter of the nation's income-an inequality even the wealthy will come to regret. By Joseph E. Stiglitz. May 2011 http://www.vanityfair.com/society/features/2011/05/top-one- percent-201105 It's no use pretending that what has obviously happened has not in fact happened. The upper 1 percent of Americans are now taking in nearly a quarter of the nation's income every year. In terms of wealth rather than income, the top 1 percent control 40 percent. Their lot in life has improved considerably. Twenty-five years ago, the corresponding figures were 12 percent and 33 percent. One response might be to celebrate the ingenuity and drive that brought good fortune to these people, and to contend that a rising tide lifts all boats. That response would be misguided. While the top 1 percent have seen their incomes rise 18 percent over the past decade, those in the middle have actually seen their incomes fall. For men with only high-school degrees, the decline has been precipitous-12 percent in the last quarter-century alone. All the growth in recent decades- and more-has gone to those at the top. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Recognising Palestine as a State?
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == What do members think of this? It seems to me that all that the Palestinian Authority controls is now reduced to the little bits of the West Bank of the Jordon which the in which the state of Israel has NOT YET set in place its settlers and full control by its army, and not even including the Gaza strip: just like the Kaffir/Bantustan areas set up in the last days of apartheid South Africa. Consequently, surely the only answer can be end of the partition of Palestine and its restoration as a country containing both Jews and Arabs, no longer under theocratic control, distant as such a prospect now seems. A solution to apartheid in South Africa also seemed impossible 50 years ago. Paddy http://apling.freeservers.com Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Misleading language
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Once again, the weekly Scientific Alliance Newsletter is well worth reading and considering - it is available at http://us2.campaign-archive2.com/?u=f1e3eeb023e7d88eff0dda8a2id=be1c0f359b e=27ee42a25f An excerpt follows: Paddy http://apling.freeservers.com Misleading language Use of language is one of the main factors which defines humanity. At its best, it can not only express our deepest feelings and be a source of great beauty, but also put across complex concepts with clarity and lack of ambiguity. However, language can also be misused and be deliberately misleading. Most obviously, this is in the form of propaganda, but more subtle misuse can be just as bad. This is as true in the case of science as for politics, finance or other areas. It is often assumed that misuse of a concept can change its meaning quite easily, by simple repetition. There are two ways of looking at this. Lenin is quoted as saying a lie told often enough becomes the truth, whereas Franklin Roosevelt took a different view when he said repetition does not transform a lie into a truth. Although apparently incompatible, each is equally valid in its own way. The Bolshevik view, unfortunately, tends to reflect real human behaviour: if people only hear a single view they tend - at least superficially - to accept it as the truth. But Roosevelt's more idealistic interpretation is equally well-founded because, although there may be general acceptance of an officially-sanctioned version of the truth, the fundamental reality does not change. Anyone who wants to look at the evidence rather than accept seemingly authoritative statements can discover the underlying truth for themselves. Take, for example, the term 'carbon dioxide pollution', which has become commonplace. The Oxford dictionary defines pollution as 'the presence in or introduction into the environment of a substance which has harmful or poisonous effects'. This seems fairly unambiguous, and the only argument about, for example, sub-micron carbon particulates in the air, copper and other heavy metals in the soil or harmful bacteria in water would be about the maximum acceptable level. There can be little doubt that each is a form of pollution and may be harmful. Carbon dioxide, on the other hand, is vital to life on Earth. Without it, plants could not photosynthesise. Without photosynthesis, there would be no oxygen. Without oxygen, there would be no life apart from anaerobic bacteria. To consider it to be a pollutant therefore seems somewhat perverse. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Importance of the Army
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == I think: There are two main factors which determine the eventual outcome of revolutions. The FIRST, obviously, is that the masses feel that it is impossible for them to continue to exist as things are. They feel they must TAKE ACTION. The SECOND, also obviously, is that the powers that be are also in a ?muddle? The THIRD, which tends to be the ultimate determinant of the final outcome- is the question whether the ARMY - the sole (or at least the main) controllers of lethal weapons will continue to obey the orders of their superiors, supporters of the old regime. This third was the crucial question in the earlier demonstrations in Tahir square in February/March - in which the old regime was careful to issue orders that might not be obeyed, so that rank and file and junior officers were not forced to reveal their attitudes to their superiors. Comrades, really try to think yourselves into the position of those behind the guns. They are not all our enemies; they have all the same problems as we have - compounded by their control under military law and the threat of punishment even for a word out of turn, let alone a refusal to obey the order of a superior - and to act AGAINST a superior order is likely to result in summary execution without even a warrant. REALISE that: for the junior ranks of the army, orders of superiors may, some of them, seemed a little peculiar, - but (e.g. in the earlier Tahir Square demonstrations) - if they do not cause any army sqaudies [UK English = lower ranks] to be involved in confrontations against the mass of the demonstrators, lower ranks can remain happy with their role - they are not forced to make any decisions. Just obey orders, as usual (however ridiculous those orders seem to be - but that's what army life is all about - obeying all the time - obeying orders that, you think, can only have been drafted by complete idiots - but which are not so completely stupid and obviously against OUR interest in the future as to be worth disputing (bearing completely in mind that if we object our superiors will put us up for a court martial - and even condemnation to the firing squad). But the FIST object of the February Movement has been won. Mubarek had lost his power. NOW we are in the next stage. BUT the factors remain the same. The ABSOLUTELY crucial factor for the present and future stages of the Arab Spring are the relationships between the civilian leadership (or just the masses generally) and the armed forces. It is absolutely CRUCIAL that both leaderships and masses continue cordial relationships with the lower ranks (INCLUDING lower ranks - and even sometimes even higher to at least Capt., Major, and at times even higher ranks). All these are CRUCIAL to success; but is so easy to regard these potential allies as enemies - and this is the MAIN DANGER: Forget all your prior categories of pro-imperialist, anti-working class, and all those other categories we are so used to using as explanations. THESE categories are all in a state of flux - they are IRRELEVANCES. Convincing EACH INDIVIDUAL is what everything depends on !! In Libya this is particularly confounded in that the majority of the regime forces are MERCENARIES - not just Libyans, with the future of themselves and their families (if they have any they have regard for) at stake - but just enrolled in support of the regime for the money they can make. BUT they still don't want to lose their lives and their peculiar motives are subject to development and change ... So much of our comments are also irrelevant to the situation on the ground, - but I do feel that much of what I am trying to say in really important for all to consider and bear in mind in our discussions. Comradely greetings, Paddy http://apling.freeservers.com Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] the Japanese nuclear disaster
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == This whole thread is wrongly titled. It was a tsunami disaster, not nuclear disaster. Just look at the devastation and loss of life caused by the tsunami: the nuclear plant stood up well to the earthquake - as did most of Japan - but the tsuami was DEVASTATING !! Paddy http://apling.freeservers.com -Original Message- From: marxism-bounces+e.c.apling=btinternet@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu [mailto:marxism-bounces+e.c.apling=btinternet@greenhouse.economics.utah. edu] On Behalf Of Les Schaffer Sent: 27 March 2011 5:43 PM To: e.c.apl...@btinternet.com Subject: Re: [Marxism] the Japanese nuclear disaster Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Laurie Penny's ultraleftist stupidity [or How to REAL revolutions begin?}
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Jay More at 28 March 2011 3:11 PM wrote in reply to Lou Proyect's subject heading You may be right there. But what kind of radical direct action, if any, do you think is appropriate in situations like the Big March in London? How do we as the conscious element enable people to take matters to the next level beyond a stroll through the streets and a rally controlled by the pols? [Paddy Apling] But, of course, Jay is also absolutely right. The development from the VERY large-scale demonstration to some action which REALLY troubles the powers that be is the CRUX of the problem we are all trying to cope with. I am not sure that any of this on this list have an real idea on how we do this - which almost boils down to how do we manage to make the whole mass of the population turn into hooligans because they cannot stand the oppression and the hypocrisy any more. The way that REAL revolutions begin is certainly completely obscure to me, after some 60 years or more as an, intended, revolutionary - who had never seen anything really akin to a revolution until the events in Tunisia, Egypt and the rest of the Arab world in the last month or two. Certainly at the end of WW2, I felt, in the army, I was entering a revolutionary time, but it all fizzled out into the cold war as we all got demob-happy and returned to everyday problems at home. I still do not understand why Paddy http://apling.freeservers.com Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Laurie Penny's ultraleftist stupidity
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == After having son and daughter-in-law for the weekend, and working through (much bigger than usual, collection of e-mails) I have found this thread (and the one on evolution explanation idea's needed) most interesting and useful. However, I think Dan's message should, perhaps, be the last word. Her artice has provoked a most useful discussion, which I think our moderator and list originator has performed at his best. The only point of his I would quibble at is (which contribution was this in?) his comparison with something in an article by Trotsky... Now, Lou, if I were to use in one of my contributions a quote from Stalin (which I am unlikely to do, [I am more likely to quote from William Morris, Tom Paine - or any other English revolutionary] although I grew up to political, and Marxist, understanding regarding him as Uncle Joe (as so many of my elders wrote about him on the tanks they were making: Tanks for Joe) these two names S T, should be verboten except in historical discussions, as neither have more than a strictly peripheral relevance to our current discussions and problems. I think this was a very unusual contravention of Lou's own criteria for this list !! (However, I will readily forgive him for this slip in the heat of the moment !!) Still a whole days postings to read, so please forgive me if my comments are already out-of-date I have gained considerable help to my thinking from all sides of the arguments. I disagree on these issues with Chavez and even Fidel, but still admire all they have done and continue doing, so words of condemnation when we disagree are WHOLLY inappropriate. I have now forgotten when else I was intending to say, so just send my comradely greetings to all members of the list. Paddy http://apling.freeservers.com -Original Message- From: marxism-bounces+e.c.apling=btinternet@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu [mailto:marxism-bounces+e.c.apling=btinternet@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu] On Behalf Of Dan Sent: 28 March 2011 7:49 PM To: e.c.apl...@btinternet.com Subject: Re: [Marxism] Laurie Penny's ultraleftist stupidity == Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == What on earth is so wrong about Laurie Penny's piece ? A riot, said martin Luther King Jr, is the language of the unheard. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Libya's largest tribe calls for peace march (and my comments)
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Hallo Listers, I do not claim either to know what is going on in Libya, if the (suspect) motives of the British and French governments in providing their young fighter/bomber pilots the possibility of a try-outof their murderous expertise for real on elements of Ghadaffi's forces in Libya are a helpo or hindrance ti the Arab Revolutionj - which is still spreading fast across the whole region (even affecting some of the youth of Israel, even if yet, not enough). All I do know, in my heart, is that a tidy majority of those, on the ground, backing the Liberation Committee in Benghazi, and their support of the UN-supported no-fly zone are truly, in spirit, part of the Arab Revolution which started in Tunis and Cairo, and has so much invigorated us in the last few weeks. If they see the no-fly zone as a problem for them - they will very soon tell us !! THIS is a revolution which does not fit the Marxist textbooks we all grew up with. Nattering about bourgeois, petty-bougeois, proletariat or lumpen-proletariat, is no longer apposite. We are free-wheeling, mates - in NEW territory - but, by God (save the expression) this is the REVOLUTION we have all been hoping for (for yonks, it seems to me, with my 86th birthday coming up next month). Let's savour it !! There's nothing much we can do, other than help and hope, for a really major and really meaningful turnout for the TUC-called demonstration in London on Saturday, and that, at last, there may be some (muttering at least) of a revolutionary spirit among the British youth. I am past really joining in, but I really am thrilled at the prospects before us. It all reminds me so much of the exhilaration all my comrade-in-arms felt around VE day in 1945 (we never realised how thin was the desire for change on the home front) - so rapidly replaced by demob-happiness and the onset of the Cold War (and by the time we were all separated and demobbed it was just TOO late - now we were all just looking for work !!). Now I am so enthralled, I cannot wait to see if the present young generation, who seem so determined, can achieve in what my generation so decisively failed. But I have to say, as a VERY long-standing member of this list that my right finger is rapidly wearing thin hitting the delete key to messages that show little or no original thought - and in many cases do not even indicate what message they are commenting on (which if quoted I MIGHT have found in my Deleted Files folder !! amu are just a waste of bandwidth !!). (And I might say that having lived, observed and participated from 1937 onward, the name of Trotsky, that may be interesting to historians of the early 20th century - just raises my hackles) We are NOT witnessing a proletarian revolution as expected by our revered Comrade Karl, but is a REVOLUTION he would have rejoiced in !! And just let us see what comes of it !! Are the imperialists trying to assist in Libya? Of course they are after their own ends, but want to be on the winning side to keep their prospects intact. PERHAPS they have learned a little (but I doubt it !!). They just think they have to renew their nefarious policies; but HONESTLY - I think they are in just a FOG as are most members of this list !! Just listen to an old-en, who's seen it all before - and learned to live with the spirit of Comrade Karl, rather than with the documents !! Listen to your hearts, comrades !! Paddy http://apling.freeservers.com -Original Message- From: marxism-bounces+e.c.apling=btinternet@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu [mailto:marxism-bounces+e.c.apling=btinternet@greenhouse.economics.utah. edu] On Behalf Of Fred Feldman Sent: 24 March 2011 8:11 PM To: e.c.apl...@btinternet.com Subject: [Marxism] Libya's largest tribe calls for peace march (and my comments) == Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Well it turns out that Gadhafi and his sons are not the only demons in Libya who must be dealt with to prevent the extermination of the opposition in Libya. An extermination which is guaranteed beyond the possibility of any dispute, according to Marvin, by Gadhafi's statement about crushing nuts. And by Louis' insistence on the killing of the prisoners, which I admit feels true to me. I do not think this is or has been a pretty regime. et.com Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Wrongly posted !! = Libya
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == -Original Message- From: Marv Gandall [mailto:marvg...@gmail.com] Sent: 24 March 2011 10:30 PM To: Paddy Apling Subject: OFFLIST Libya's largest tribe calls for peace march (and my comments) Terrific post, Paddy. You're always a breath of fresh air on the list. On 2011-03-24, at 5:58 PM, Paddy Apling wrote: Hallo Listers, I do not claim either to know what is going on in Libya, if the (suspect) motives of the British and French governments in providing their young fighter/bomber pilots the possibility of a try-outof their murderous expertise for real on elements of Ghadaffi's forces in Libya are a helpo or hindrance ti the Arab Revolutionj - which is still spreading fast across the whole region (even affecting some of the youth of Israel, even if yet, not enough). All I do know, in my heart, is that a tidy majority of those, on the ground, backing the Liberation Committee in Benghazi, and their support of the UN-supported no-fly zone are truly, in spirit, part of the Arab Revolution which started in Tunis and Cairo, and has so much invigorated us in the last few weeks. If they see the no-fly zone as a problem for them - they will very soon tell us !! THIS is a revolution which does not fit the Marxist textbooks we all grew up with. Nattering about bourgeois, petty-bougeois, proletariat or lumpen-proletariat, is no longer apposite. We are free-wheeling, mates - in NEW territory - but, by God (save the expression) this is the REVOLUTION we have all been hoping for (for yonks, it seems to me, with my 86th birthday coming up next month). Let's savour it !! There's nothing much we can do, other than help and hope, for a really major and really meaningful turnout for the TUC-called demonstration in London on Saturday, and that, at last, there may be some (muttering at least) of a revolutionary spirit among the British youth. I am past really joining in, but I really am thrilled at the prospects before us. It all reminds me so much of the exhilaration all my comrade-in-arms felt around VE day in 1945 (we never realised how thin was the desire for change on the home front) - so rapidly replaced by demob-happiness and the onset of the Cold War (and by the time we were all separated and demobbed it was just TOO late - now we were all just looking for work !!). Now I am so enthralled, I cannot wait to see if the present young generation, who seem so determined, can achieve in what my generation so decisively failed. But I have to say, as a VERY long-standing member of this list that my right finger is rapidly wearing thin hitting the delete key to messages that show little or no original thought - and in many cases do not even indicate what message they are commenting on (which if quoted I MIGHT have found in my Deleted Files folder !! amu are just a waste of bandwidth !!). (And I might say that having lived, observed and participated from 1937 onward, the name of Trotsky, that may be interesting to historians of the early 20th century - just raises my hackles) We are NOT witnessing a proletarian revolution as expected by our revered Comrade Karl, but is a REVOLUTION he would have rejoiced in !! And just let us see what comes of it !! Are the imperialists trying to assist in Libya? Of course they are after their own ends, but want to be on the winning side to keep their prospects intact. PERHAPS they have learned a little (but I doubt it !!). They just think they have to renew their nefarious policies; but HONESTLY - I think they are in just a FOG as are most members of this list !! Just listen to an old-en, who's seen it all before - and learned to live with the spirit of Comrade Karl, rather than with the documents !! Listen to your hearts, comrades !! Paddy http://apling.freeservers.com -Original Message- From: marxism-bounces+e.c.apling=btinternet@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu [mailto:marxism-bounces+e.c.apling=btinternet@greenhouse.economics.utah. edu] On Behalf Of Fred Feldman Sent: 24 March 2011 8:11 PM To: e.c.apl...@btinternet.com Subject: [Marxism] Libya's largest tribe calls for peace march (and my comments) == Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Well it turns out that Gadhafi and his sons are not the only demons in Libya who must be dealt with to prevent the extermination of the opposition in Libya. An extermination which is guaranteed beyond the possibility of any dispute, according to Marvin, by Gadhafi's statement about crushing nuts. And by Louis' insistence
[Marxism] The Middle East Revolution
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Al-Jazeera carries a remarkable analysis by Aslam Farouk-Alli, datelined at 15 Mar 2011 15:07 GMT, abd available in England at http://english.aljazeera.net/indepth/opinion/2011/03/201131513626957891.htm l/ It is probably too long to copy here, but I recommend all to read it with my comment that if you don't agree with it at least 90% you have bot really imbibed the spirit of Marxist philosophy and analysis, or understood the revolutionary possibilities (indeed necessities) of our current epoch. Just to quote a couple of paragraphs to whet your appetite: The Russian revolutionary Vladimir Lenin once said that there are decades when nothing happens and then there are weeks when decades happen. While Lenin's sentiment consummately captures the revolutionary contagion currently sweeping across the Middle East, any further comparison between the Arab revolt and classical socialist theories of revolution would be difficult to justify: what we are witnessing in the Middle East today is a quintessential, atypical people's revolution driven by university educated youth who are not only financially secure but also extremely cosmopolitan in their outlook. These young revolutionaries have enhanced the power of social networking to mobilise their peers, workers, political organisations, NGO's, the young, the old and even the normally disinterested to materialise what Stathis Gourgouris recently described as the essence of revolution: The people's removal of their consent to power. There is as such a much deeper historical undercurrent informing the protest movement, one that strongly resonates with the most basic of human aspirations and which dictates that freedom and honour - like the air that we breathe - are the lifeblood of all people, even when they remain for long periods of time beyond our collective gaze. Reflecting on the historical context that has shaped the modern Middle East places the current phase of popular revolution in much sharper perspective. The modern Middle East was born in crisis. Remnants of the Ottoman and Safavid Empires of the 19th century, the countries of this realm only took the form of modern nation states after passing through the brutal mill of European colonialism. Whereas state formation in Europe took centuries to develop, countries in the Middle East were created by the veritable stroke of a pen; by a line drawn on a map; by a decision taken in a smoke-filled boardroom. The results were catastrophic and for the people of this realm the transition from sultanic patronage, to colonial subject, to modern citizen of an autocratic state was overwhelming: little, if any, consideration was given to their political aspirations. clip In the post-Cold War period, the United States of America has held unchallenged sway over the region and has manipulated the politics of the Middle East in accordance with its own strategic objectives, primarily its concerns over access to oil and keeping the rising powers of China, Russia and India in check. Such control has been maintained by two major strategies. The first has been unconditional support for the State of Israel, a settler colonial enclave that is completely foreign to the cultural matrix of the region. Israel has acted as America's watchdog in the region in return for unconditional support for its own aspiration of maintaining an exclusivist Jewish homeland in the heart of the Middle East. The second American strategy has been to maintain loyal local proxies by turning a blind eye to the internal oppression within these authoritarian regimes. Some of the USA's closest allies in the region, countries like Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Yemen, the UAE and Jordan, are longstanding dictatorships that have shown no inclination to internal reform and political liberalisation. As such, the greatest achievement of the revolution currently underway is that it has spawned a new political geography. With the collapse of Egypt alone, a major pivotal state in the region, American influence in the Middle East could be drastically reduced. Furthermore, Israel would no longer be in a position to act with impunity against its Arab neighbours, as was the case in Lebanon in 2006 and Gaza in 2008/9; its deterrent capacity in favour of its own interests and that of its American Master will therefore be severely curtailed. Enjoy - and develop understanding, enjoyment, and support, of this revolutionary era. Paddy http://apling.freeservers.com Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] two unsubscribe requests
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == I thoroughly agree with Dan Paddy http://apling.freeservers.com -Original Message- From: marxism-bounces+e.c.apling=btinternet@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu [mailto:marxism-bounces+e.c.apling=btinternet@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu] On Behalf Of Dan Sent: 19 March 2011 1:01 AM To: e.c.apl...@btinternet.com Subject: [Marxism] two unsubscribe requests Well, we have two unsubscribe requests this week that fill me with both sadness and puzzlement. 1° Néstor Gorojovsky, a long term member of this list and a believer in the necessity for a nationalist bourgeoisie to come to prominence in LAtin America as a way for building principled opposition to US intervention in the region (please, please, correct me if I'm wrong) and 2) Fred Feldman, who spends a lot of time in Cuba, and therefore can always give us the latest updates on Fidel's thinking. To have two such eminent comrades desert the list at this crucial moment means a loss of factual information concerning Latin America. Though they may strongly disagree with some of the posts on this list, I for one sincerely hope they will retain a presence as purveyors of information from El Sur. I would like to add that disagreement is in fact salutary and that the purpose of this list is to be both international and broad in spectrum. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] I am amazed by many things
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Hallo Comrades, I am amazed by many things. Perhaps first of all I am amazed at how Lou Poyect does so many things - not only keeping this list going throughout all its trials and disputes, but also keeping such frequent writings on his Unrependant Marxist blog - not all of which I, as a European, fully understand - but he clicks fully with me when he is talking about jazz !! And I can understand how Nestor Gorovosky can ask to be unsubbed after all the names he has been called as a result of his support of Chavez's supposed support of Gadaffi. I don't agree with Nestor in this dispute - but do not want to lose his insight into the affairs of South America (which are the source of his different take on events in Libya). I have followed this list for so many years I just do not remember when I started - not long from the beginning of the list, I believe - and a very good number of my contributions, particularly in recent years, have met with similar opprobrium (some almost akin to flaming) - something strictly verboten on this list - but I have continued to follow - with just occasional contributions, because I support Lou's intention: to promote discussion, without sectarianism, of the contribution of Marxist ideas to the understanding of the human condition and the way forward, particularly for those of us who live in the imperialist (or western) countries of the world. Lou and I met once, for an afternoon, at the end of my winter visit to relatives and friends in Canada and USA in 2008/9 - convincing me (and, I think, Lou) that we were kindred spirits, despite obvious disagreements on certain matters such, particularly atomic energy, but more particularly in rejection of the concept of the vanguard party and its consequent sectarianism in the 21st century. Then I come on to my second amazement. I am amazed that so many contributions regarding Libya are based on a simple definition of imperialism which, apparently, must determine our evaluations of events. This seems to me to misunderstand the two-faced aspect of imperialism - the imperative of power - and the imperative of ACCEPTANCE of that power by the local populace. The governments of GB and France are, at present, all concerned with the second of these. OF COURSE, the protection of imperialism and its profits is uppermost in their minds, but they are at the same time in a problem with their populace and its distrust at the domination of the financial moneybags on their governments - so at present their humanitarian opposition to the activities of a N African dictator can be a plus for their acceptance by their local populations. OF COURSE, their intentions have really nothing to do with democracy and freedom - but they are in a mess - and although we have to beware against long-term intervention in Libya - surely their (and the UN) response to the call for a certain amount of assistance to the anti-Gaddafi rebels needs initial applaud. OF COURSE also, that you will find I am trying to talk in simple language on this issue - not on behalf of any particular party or sect - but as one who grew with Marxism and the convincement of the necessity of full consideration of a problem, and determination of what is really the main problem at issue in any political situation - and here the MAIN issue is surely the Arab Revolution - the clearing of Arabia of petty tyrants and the beginnings in Arabia of power to the people. How it plans out, we shall eventually see, but even the actions of imperialists can help. Let's stop calling names, and have sober analysis in this complex situation of 2011 across the world. My third amazement I shall leave for a further contribution. Please, listers, stay calm and consider . Comradely greetings to you all, Paddy http://apling.freeservers.com Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] I am amazed - part 3
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Just an afterthought to what provoked my earlier posts. I remember my mother making a distinction between a scientist and an engineer (she was a school teacher) as follows: A scientist is a fellow who always wants to know WHY - but couldn't care less what other people did with it when he found out. An engineer was someone who always wanted to figure out how he could do something for sixpence (½ a shilling - £0.025) what any fool could do for a bob (a shilling = £0.05). I became a scientist, but always craved to be an engineer . And perhaps I hoped to be an engineer of the human spirit - and achievement in human liberty and happiness. Paddy http://apling.freeservers.com Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Protest
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Hallo Lou, I must DIS-agree with your unsubbing of Walter Lippman, whose recent return to the list I have much welcomed, although I often do not agree with him, he is a thoughtful correspondent I can have useful discussions with. Please let him back to the list, and just let any comments of his that raise your ire fall like water off a duck's back. I don't mind telling you that as communist for something like 70 years I have never felt so excited about entering a revolutionary situation (even including those years of 1944-6, when 1947/8 followed with the start of the Cold War). This is not, nor cannot be, a revolution against world capitalism, it is the revolt of the whole Arab world against what they have been subjected to since 1918; it is a national-democratic revolution (akin perhaps to 1905 or February 1917 in Russia). It has the POSSIBILITY of raising the eyes and aims of the labour movement in the west, but we in the west can do no more than support these youngsters of the April 6th Movement - wish them well and look forward to the end of tyrannies (all US and UK supported). These youngsters are just showing what technically (but not politically) educated youngsters can achieve for democracy and freedom. The Marxist texts of the 19th century give very little guidance for the new situation of the 21st century - they (and we) have to determine our own way forward, based on our general understanding; our (and their) understanding must be of the tactics which can involve the largest number of people (whether they are working class, proletariat, petit-bourgeoisie or whatever) in ACTION against the vastly rich, the those who have collaborated in keeping the Arab peoples in subjection simce 1918. UNITY of the greatest number (shades of Jeremiah Bentham and we should not forget the likes of John Wilkes, 1715-97 against the censorship in Britain) is the greatest good; only THIS can secure even the minimal achievements of the revolution so far. Socialism (with all the bad things associated with the words socialism and communism inculcated in the minds of ordinary people 50 or 60 years of US domination) is just not on the agenda - it only confuses the issues and helps the counter-revolution at this time: the people need time to learn in their struggles with the disgustingly rich who have dominated them for so long. Only struggles for simple issues can work (remember the Bolshevik slogan of 1917 = Bread and Land). Today this equates to Freedom and a Decent Standard of Living - or something of that sort - I feel sure that Ahmed Maher, the leader of the 6th April Movement in Egypt has a better way of putting it - but all I have heard, and listened to on Al-Jazeera suggests to me that he may be the Lenin of the moment. Comrades, think this through. It is not enough, now, to be submerged in the Marxist classics. You must be able to put yourself into that great mind of Karl Marx and work out for yourselves what - two centuries later - he would have advised. (I think I have just an inkling. Let's see what others think) -Original Message- From: marxism-bounces+e.c.apling=btinternet@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu [mailto:marxism-bounces+e.c.apling=btinternet@greenhouse.economics.utah. edu] On Behalf Of Marv Gandall Sent: 04 March 2011 12:52 PM To: e.c.apl...@btinternet.com Subject: Re: [Marxism] Protest == Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On 2011-03-03, at 9:03 PM, Peggy Dobbins wrote: Me too peggy On Thu, Mar 3, 2011 at 8:41 PM, Néstor Gorojovsky nmg...@gmail.com wrote: I strongly protest against W. Lippmann´s being unsubbed for stating bluntly and honestly his point of view. I don't agree with the Walter-Fred-Nestor line on Libya, but their position is an arguable one and I don't think any or all of them have presented it provocatively, except to those who are too easily provoked. There was nothing in Walter's comments which justified his expulsion, and his persistence in advancing his particular viewpoint is not unique to the list either. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] A Libyan exception?
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == No, there's no exception except the earlier history of the tyrant. Like in so many previous cases, the leader of an earlier revolution which has not resulted in continuing democratic activities of the masses (whether these are regarded as proletarians, peasants - or any other name by us Marxists - but where the social composition of the populace goes some way to explain what happened in the interim) that (a popular) leader of the revolution found himself forced into the situation of a tyrant (cf. Joseph Stalin; or even Bonaparte) and becomes completely separated from the humanistic ideals of the revolution, with only HIS power remaining as the important result of the revolution. We have two examples remaining today - Qadaffi in Libya and Mugabe in Zimbabwe - and as one who in his youth regarded Joseph Stalin as an examplar (as he undoubtedly was - compared to the others sharing the world stage during the time of the rise of fascism, the invasion of Abyssinia, the Spanish Civil War and during WW2) - eventually became one who could only be regarded as a unconscionable tyrant. History has, so to speak, left these people behind - they have become embarrassments to the continuing revolutionary tradition. It is, for me, a sorrow that such people have been unable to adept themselves to the changes in the world around them, and so have become individuals to be execrated rather than admired - that their earlier contributions are just forgotten rather than inscribed in the complicated history of the struggle of the common people against their exploiters. History has left Qadaffi behind. He imagines himself living in a period which has passed Paddy http://apling.freeservers.com -Original Message- From: marxism- PsmallOST/small OsmallFFICE/small.#151;bounces+e.c.apling=btinternet@greenhouse.eco nomics.utah.edu [mailto:marxism-bounces+e.c.apling=btinternet@greenhouse.economics.utah. edu] On Behalf Of Louis Proyect Sent: 04 March 2011 3:24 PM To: e.c.apl...@btinternet.com Subject: [Marxism] A Libyan exception? cut Libya, so it goes, should be treated as an exception because the revolution there is stage-managed by the CIA which targets Qaddafi for elimination because of his anti-imperialist posture in the Middle East, a posture that extended to other parts of the world through (what is portrayed as) his unconditional support for national liberation movements. Libya further should be treated as an exception because Qaddafi is an Arab socialist and his socialism has given (apparently) Libyans a life way better than most Arabs; in fact, even better than the life of some people in the West. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Of course it is
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == What was this message replying to? I just do not understand what you are talking about. Paddy http://apling.freeservers.com -Original Message- From: marxism-bounces+e.c.apling=btinternet@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu [mailto:marxism-bounces+e.c.apling=btinternet@greenhouse.economics.utah. edu] On Behalf Of Mark Lause Sent: 04 March 2011 4:08 PM To: e.c.apl...@btinternet.com Cc: Jeff Subject: Re: [Marxism] Of course it is Really? You really think so? Have I missed something? Is this email list organizing joint propaganda over anything? Running a newspaper? Holding any interventions? How about even formulating a line on something? I think that radicals, no less than anyone else in modern civic culture, tends to use online things as a substitute for real activity. This isn't an organization and people should stop using it as a substitute for one. If you think you think we need such an organization, you should direct your attentions to building one. ML Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Libyan rebels reject Hugo Chávez mediation offer
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Dear Comrade Nestor, I am really surprised that you are unable to see the reality of the Arab revolution (which indeed has nothing to do DIRECTLY with the fight for socialism in the western world) - but has EVERYTHING to do with the common fight of the common people against the moneybags. We should be exhilarated that the Arabs are revolting against the oppression that the west (led originally by Britain and subsequently by the USA) has dealt them since 1918. No doubt there are tribalists, monarchists, Islamic fundamentalists, and all sorts of other ...ists that we have never heard about, and cannot understand, among the crowds opposing tyranny. But they are in ACTION against tyranny !! NO revolution has ever - or WILL EVER HAPPEN - that only includes people who have a rational understanding of the vast issues involved. These are simple people - just like the people you pass in the street or in the shops when you go to by your food. They are not political theorists like so many of us on this list - they are just coming on to the streets because things have just gone beyond what they can put up with any longer. They just know that things have become INTOLERABLE and they want CHANGE !!! Most of them have not the slightest idea what they mean by change - but they know they want it. This is the situation where your REAL understanding as a revolutionary is tested. You must be able to talk to the people in words they understand - to help them towards an understanding of who their REAL enemies are - and to help THEM make a BETTER LIFE for themselves and their families. (That is why I became both a scientist and a communist). Surely that is the fundamental reason we are revolutionaries - not to show how important Marxism is to let us understand the world - but to CHANGE the world for the betterment of HUMANITY, whatever its peculiarities and beliefs. Tyrants like Gaddaffi (and Mugabe), whatever their revolutionary credentials, have no place in this HUMAN fight for Liberté, Fraternité et Equalité.THAT, the idea of the French Revolution is what we are fighting for under the banner of Socialism and Marxism - the same REVOLUTIONARY slogan of the common people for centuries. Of course our governments want to control what happens in the future of the Arabian countries - howver, the people may be SIMPLE in theoretical terms - but they are not STUPID = and THEY HAVE GOT OFF THEIR KNEES - which is for evermore just for worshipping Allah on Saturdays. Finally, we should realise, that without knowing it - they are fighting for US as well. Let us work for a HUGE turn out for the TUC demo on March 26th. Paddy http://apling.freeservers.com -Original Message- From: marxism-bounces+e.c.apling=btinternet@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu [mailto:marxism-bounces+e.c.apling=btinternet@greenhouse.economics.utah. edu] On Behalf Of dave x Sent: 04 March 2011 4:55 PM To: e.c.apl...@btinternet.com Subject: Re: [Marxism] Libyan rebels reject Hugo Chávez mediation offer == Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Nestor: It is too easy to tell me I slander those you have defined as revolutionaries (without much experience of Lybian issues, I presume), when I have simply shown that they are, at most, rebels, with some unsavory and (for a revolutionary) uncanny elements within. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Aspects of the Egyptian Revolution
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Hallo Gary, I had not heard of US Navy movements - but doubt they will intervene (if they do they will certainly inflame matters much further throughout the region). It seems the regime is struggling to find any sensible actions to take - and presently is just relying on the hope that demonstrators will gradually run out of steam. In any prolonged demonstrative action this tendency is always there unless there are daily actions, successes or whatever to encourage everybody - and this is undoubtedly a problem for those contributing to leadership of the revolt, with which so far they have been dealing with extremely well. But the regime is still living in hopes Differentiation within the army is also still on hold during this period, but, particularly: since most of the lower ranks in the army are conscripts, so that many will have friends and relatives that they may anticipate to be among the throng of crowds, it seems very likely that the higher echelons of the army are well aware that mutiny would be a very strong possibility against any repressive action they were to ask the army to undertake - so they too are playing a waiting game, as an army mutiny would bring a rapid end to them and the regime. For the weeks ahead - maintenance of numbers in the square and in frequent demonstrations in other cities of Egypt, on the one hand; and the attitude of and differentiation within the army, on the other, are going to remain as the crucial factors. Long live the Egyptian revolution !! Paddy -Original Message- From: marxism-bounces+e.c.apling=btinternet@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu [mailto:marxism-bounces+e.c.apling=btinternet@greenhouse.economics.utah. edu] On Behalf Of Gary MacLennan Sent: 10 February 2011 9:06 AM To: e.c.apl...@btinternet.com Subject: Re: [Marxism] Aspects of the Egyptian Revolution == Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Hi Paddy, yes the situation in Egypt is very complex indeed. The entry of US warships and talk of Marines being sent there has added even more complications. The Israeli site debka.com is well worth reading if only to enjoy the hysteria being generated in Israeli ranks at the very thought of Arab democracy. The outbreak of strikes, some of which are overtly political, may well be the circuit breaker that was needed to get the Army to break up. As far as I can see the elite have only the massacre card to play now. The delay in playing it for whatever reason, means I believe that even if they do turn the Army or sections of it on the demonstrators that they might not succeed in putting down the Revolution. The Shah too let loose the helicopter gunships and that was the end of him. Of course I hope there will be no massacre. My preferred option would be for workers soldiers and students to get together to form a revolutionary government. In the current climate that is not an impossibility. I still do not understand why someone in the elite has not packed Mubarak off and gone with El Baradei. Timing is crucial in counter revolutions as well as in revolutions. The Americans have mistimed this hopelessly. Their initial reactions seemed to have been guided by the sole criterion of the what they thought was good for Israel. The decision to go with Suleiman as the successor was quite simply stupid. The use of Wisner as a mediator was also truly dumb. Meanwhile the dictatorship has made concessions which are all too little and too late. The one thing that Gibbs in Washington has said that makes sense is that the Egyptian government does not understand what is happening in the streets. The courage and elan of the demonstrators is absolutely astonishing. They now have spread out of Tahrir Square to surround parliament. Everyone now understands what is at stake here. Mubarak I think is playing on that with his talk that it is either me or chaos. But his very stubbornness has closed down the options that the Egyptian and American rulers have at their disposal. Now their is talk of workers' councils. Oh joy! Long live the Egyptian revolution! Onwards to the Arab Revolution and then the ruling class of the world will tremble. comradely Gary Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/e.c.apling%40bt internet.com Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at:
[Marxism] Aspects of the Egyptian Revolution
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == The situation in Egypt seems to be a situation of not of dual but of triple power; The Regime: the tyrannical state regime controls the country's finances and its civil security apparatus - the police and its secret appendages - which it dare not use against the people as it has for the last thirty years; while the youth organisation controlling Tahir Square in Cairo, has the world looking on .through the energetic coverage provided by the journalists of Al-Jazeera. The self-organising youth, who control Tahir Square and the day-to-day demonstrations in Alexandria and other cities, who follow no political party, and in their organisation not only of security in the square, but extending to such normal state duties as collecting rubbish; protecting lost property; providing medical, toilet and care facilities and so on, and showing not only the antipathy so general in Western Europe to party politics, but also the communal development of self-organisation, which remind one of the those characteristics of the Paris Commune of 1871, so well-described by Marx in the First Draft of Civil War in France as: The whole deception [of the omnipotence and necessity of the state] was swept away by a Commune which consisted predominantly of simple workers who organise the defence of Paris, wage war against the pretorians of Bonaparte, ensure the supplies of this giant city, and fill all the positions hitherto shared among government, police and prefecture. And, thirdly. the Army, which declares it is on the side of the people, but in reality is acting as a third estate preventing the state from repression, but the people from further and decisive activity, such as the real eventual necessity of arresting Hosni Mubarek and his cronies and bringing them to justice. Sad to say, the eventual dénouement may eventually depend on discussions taking place within the ranks of the army, where I (perhaps wrongly) presently tend to rest my hopes (having had experience of discussions on British involvement in Greece, when I was in the army in Italy in 1946. A great deal for the whole world, and, of course, particularly for the Middle East. depends on the success of this overwhelming demand of the Egyptian people for change - and ALL Marxists, whatever their differences on unrelated questions, should be bending all their efforts to support the Egyptian revolt. (And how I would wish to have similar scenes in Britain !!!) Comradely greetings to you all, Paddy http://apling.freeservers.com Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Aspects of the Egyptian Revolution - supplement
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Addition to my Army comments: It takes a good deak of thought to disobey orders in the Army. In talking of 1946 discussions, the talk of movement to Greece, the possibility of mutiny never arose: the government sent Guards Regiments (more politically reliable !!) instead of the Tank regiments first suggested. So I never had to make a choice. What would I have done? It has always bothered ME. I reckon the regiment was 50-50 about going; but disobeying = WHAT? Paddy http://apling.freeservers.com Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Just An FYI - Paul Robeson In The Emperor Jones (1933)
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Thanks for that. A lovely chance to see beloved Paul. Paddy http://apling.freeservers.com -Original Message- From: marxism-bounces+e.c.apling=btinternet@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu [mailto:marxism-bounces+e.c.apling=btinternet@greenhouse.economics.utah. edu] On Behalf Of Bill Quimby Sent: 09 February 2011 11:14 PM To: e.c.apl...@btinternet.com Subject: [Marxism] Just An FYI - Paul Robeson In The Emperor Jones (1933) == Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Attention radical Americana fans The very fun (if you like 30's-50's B movies) web site http://www.classiccinemaonline.com/1/index.php is now playing the film based on O'Neil's play Emperor Jones, with Paul Robeson. Their movies tend to only stay online for 3-4 days (it is now Wed 2/9/11). - Bill Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/e.c.apling%40bt internet.com Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] News briadcasts
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == The last ten days should surely show people in GB and USA howlittle you can trust yourown countries TV news Only al.jazeera has been broadcasting TRUTH across the world. Those staying with the BBC or the equivalent in the USA, whatever they are FOX news? - perhaps there are somewhat better than that, but I am English so am not familiar with USA TV. But I DO Know about Britain - where the BBC take TONY BLAIR as the know-all about Egypt. I have not been able to contact my many friends in Egypt - but Al-Jazeera is, I feel sure, doing its very best to show me their feelings... Hurrah for the Egyptians - they are in the vanguard of the fight against the tyranny of the Imperilists, neo-cons, the unholy rich, or whatever else you want to call them - the rich bastards who think they control the world. The Egyptians are showing how shallow is their control. Egyptians are the vanguard of the fight for a new world !! TV now is useless - but the internet gives us REAL news - and HOPE !! Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
