Re: [MBZ] I can not believe how stupid people are

[Allan Streib via Mercedes]

I'm wondering how this affects 2020 and future income taxes. In prior
years most people didn't have any consequential "home office" dedicated
space or supply expenses. This year, many more people will. I'm using my
personal living space, electricity, and internet connection to do work
for my employer every single workday since the end of March.

Allan

Clay Monroe via Mercedes  writes:

> For virtual work to function well will require a mass change to home 
> architecture to include work cells for kids and office drones.  In normal 
> times social intercourse could be sustained in bars and dining spaces.  The 
> current plague is swiftly ridding the landscape of any business lunch or 
> social interaction locations.  
>
> clay 
>
> Who has Whuhoo flu hair style and a dentist who can no longer provide service 
> under lock up regulations
>
>
>
>> On Dec 4, 2020, at 4:09 AM, Meade Dillon via Mercedes > > wrote:
>> 
>> I've been thinking that the current situation of almost all virtual work
>> (for those that can do so) is a losing proposition in the long term.  I'm
>> not sure when the impact will be felt, but eventually the work-place
>> relationships will shrivel up into superficial and shallow relationships,
>> and the trust and social cohesion needed to keep an organization vital and
>> energized and innovating will slip.  Companies / workplaces that maintain
>> in-person environments will gain the advantage.  Perhaps some companies
>> will develop business models that allow them to remain competitive, but I
>> fear that those models will be brutal for the 'workers' and heavily benefit
>> the company and its leadership.  Man is a social being, and there will be a
>> price to pay for reducing workplace social contact.
>> -
>> Max
>> Charleston SC

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Re: [MBZ] OT: I love this bike

[Clay Monroe via Mercedes]

Those things are expensive.  SEA neighbor got one last Autumn.  Loved riding 
it.  WRD struck, his Priapus got the catastrophic converter swiped thrice this 
year, and some hobo absconded with is bike while he was at the park.

Local SEA news channel had an in depth report on the illicit markets the 
vagabonds have.  From the video, plug in bikes (any bike) were big sellers.  
Seems the tent dwellers do not face the same draconian restrictions on 
conducting business that tax paying retailers do.



clay 

I have no pronouns please do not refer to me.



> On Dec 4, 2020, at 12:10 PM, Mitch Haley via Mercedes  > wrote:
> 
> I don't know why, but I entered this thread expecting an electrically 
> assisted pedal bike, which seem to be all the rage among those of a certain 
> age (Sammich loves his).
> 
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Clay


inter urinas et faeces nascimur

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Re: [MBZ] U.S. Cadillac Dealers to Exit Brand, Rather Than Sell Electric Cars

[Rick Knoble via Mercedes]

>The 67 GTFO is one of my favorite cars of all time


I believe 3M restored the Monkey Mobile model of one of those.


Rick
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Re: [MBZ] I can not believe how stupid people are -- now remote work

[Clay Monroe via Mercedes]

Exact description of the Korean College exams that are being seated this week.  
Lots of complaints that the physical accommodations are horrid and impacts to 
future success are being damaged by Plexiglas panels, masking, cyber stalking 
recording and locked down computers.  

Not sure, sounds terrible to me.  But then having everything about your future 
life depend upon some entrance exam is pretty bad to my mind

Clay


inter urinas et faeces nascimur

> On Dec 4, 2020, at 11:48 AM, Allan Streib via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> For the online exams, you have to install and use a "lockdown browser"
> which takes over your computer and prevents you from accessing any other
> applications or unapproved websites.
> 
> Your camera and microphone is used to verify that nobody else is in the
> room helping you, and supposedly also to catch if you are using a
> calculator, a separate computer, looking at notes or books if not
> permitted, etc.
> 
> You have to submit a 360 camera view of the room to show what is on your
> desk and that there are no other screens or computers.
> 
> All very Orwellian. I get that cheating is a thing, but a determined
> cheater is going to cheat. At some point it's a cost of doing business
> and trying to prevent it puts too much burden on the majority of people
> who are (mostly) honest.
> 
> Allan
> 
> 
> Dan Penoff via Mercedes  writes:
> 
>> I’ve heard that our certification authorities are doing stuff like this so 
>> they can still have people testing for certs. I’m curious as to how they do 
>> it…
>> 
>> -D
>> 
>>> On Dec 4, 2020, at 3:15 PM, Allan Streib via Mercedes 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> The next thing is using the camera and screenshots to verify that you
>>> are sitting at the computer and actually working on work stuff. Similar
>>> stuff is being done for students taking online exams, to try to detect
>>> cheating.
>>> 
>>> Yeah I would not work under those conditions. Also since I use an
>>> obscure OS at home, none of that would work on my computer.
>>> 
>>> Allan
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Dan Penoff via Mercedes  writes:
>>> 
 Agreed.
 
 Just as there are app developers out there who have come up with apps
 that “twitch” your mouse every few minutes, too.
 
 -D
>>> 
> 
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Re: [MBZ] 500 SEL $2,000

[Kaleb Striplin via Mercedes]

What a dummy 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Dec 4, 2020, at 6:13 PM, Allan Streib via Mercedes  
> wrote:
> 
> Looks pretty clean. Why upload screenshots of your phone instead of the
> actual photos?
> 
> https://cincinnati.craigslist.org/cto/d/cincinnati-1985-mercedes-benz-500-sel/7241342990.html
> 
> Allan
> 
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Re: [MBZ] I can not believe how stupid people are -- now remote work

[Clay Monroe via Mercedes]

Trousers

For me it was home is where the trousers are not worn.  Work required I look 
human and behave human.

---
clay

I turned my computer upside down and shook it, but the bookmark for what I'm 
looking for didn't fall out.




> On Dec 4, 2020, at 8:29 AM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> I was teleworking full time before I retired this summer and as you said,
> missed the daily interactions with other humans.  I also found that working
> from home meant LONGER hours, since I had no reason to log out and there
> was always a new email to open, which often kept me well beyond 8 hours.
> 
> On Fri, Dec 4, 2020 at 12:03 PM Dan Penoff via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
> 
>> I would agree with this. I have a team that I work with, two of which are
>> younger people about 20 years my junior, and one who is a few years older
>> than me. We all get along well and have a lot of common interests, so the
>> social interaction was definitely a part of the work day. I definitely miss
>> that aspect of work.
>> 
>> The other aspect that hasn’t been mentioned here is what I would describe
>> as a “separation of duties”, although that’s not the ideal description.
>> 
>> I’m talking about the distinct delineation of “work” versus “home”. That
>> is, when I leave work, I’m done for the day both mentally and physically.
>> That’s not the case when you’re working from home. This is probably the big
>> negative for me when it comes to working from home. I like the physical
>> separation between the two environments.
>> 
>> -D
>> 
>>> On Dec 4, 2020, at 11:51 AM, Floyd Thursby via Mercedes <
>> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> I realized when I was at Lotus that I was working mostly with people who
>> were not in my office so it really didn't matter much where I was.  Instead
>> of fighting traffic at 830 I would drop the kids at school, go home and
>> work for a coupla hours, make phone calls, emails, work on computer stuff,
>> whatever.  Then I would head into the office for the afternoon and if I
>> needed to meet with anyone I could do that.  I got more done at home
>> without the distractions, and dealing with colleagues in England or Europe
>> was fine from home.  It was a really nice sorta hybrid scheme. Working
>> always from home got to be old, even though I got more done and it was
>> relaxing and flexible, I missed the social interactions, random drop-in
>> discussions, and serendipitous ideas that popped up being around other
>> people and seeing them in the cafeteria or hallways.  It was just easier in
>> a lot of ways to get a job done being around others, at least for some
>> things.
>>> 
>>> IBM went to a remote work environment back in the late 90s, got rid of a
>> lot of office space but still had some for meetings/conf rooms and hot
>> desking if you needed to be somewhere with those resources.  Most of the
>> people were always traveling somewhere anyway so it did not make a lot of
>> difference.  I spent a lot of time in hotels, airports, airplanes, and
>> off-site partners and our other offices so it was fine with me though I did
>> (until I moved away) have an office at our main building in Cambridge with
>> a killer view of Boston and the river.  Plus I really liked a lot of the
>> people I worked with so that was nice to be around friends.
>>> 
>>> But yeah, the social interaction is a key factor not just in work but in
>> lots of other things, I find that people are getting cranky and ill-behaved
>> not having that.
>>> 
>>> --FT
>>> 
>>> On 12/4/20 9:26 AM, Dan Penoff via Mercedes wrote:
 And in a nutshell that’s what this company found. While the initial
>> approach was to let roughly 50% of the employees work remotely, about a
>> third of those ended up wanting to return t the office if I recall
>> correctly. Many of them were younger people whose social lives involved
>> relationships with their (work) peers.
 
 It was pretty interesting, I thought.
 
 -D
 
> On Dec 4, 2020, at 9:17 AM, M. Mitchell Marmel via Mercedes <
>> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
> 
> A wise company will do an intelligent mix.   Those who do better
>> working
> from home, work from home.  Those who do better in an office
>> environment,
> work in an office.
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>>> --
>>> --FT
>>> 
>>> 
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>>> 
>>> To search list 

Re: [MBZ] 1973 Mercedes-Benz,$7,000

[Clay Monroe via Mercedes]

Totally wrong fog lamps.  Not sure about the steering wheel, as that might have 
been a transition year from Bakelite to collapsable.  The w115 240D should have 
had the mushy wheel


clay 

I have no pronouns please do not refer to me.



> On Dec 4, 2020, at 7:42 AM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> Incorrect (and probably cracked) steering wheel is all wrong.  As is the
> price...
> 
> On Fri, Dec 4, 2020 at 11:27 AM Floyd Thursby via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
> 
>> looks pretty nice
>> 
>> 
>> https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/13759591029/?ref=search_code=undefined
>> 
>> --
>> --FT
>> 
>> 
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Re: [MBZ] I can not believe how stupid people are

[Clay Monroe via Mercedes]

Pink collar jobs in the legal field are all but gone.  There used to be massive 
word processing, secretarial pools, paralegals and a host of desk occupants.  
Now the shyster has to do his own WP, support tasks and self help/care.  If the 
firm is large enough, it has a central processing unit 
(HR/Tech/records/travel/etc.) in the main office, and a skeleton crew at that.  
Most of it has been outsourced to India or other 24/7 site.  Far less expensive 
and no need for benefits or interaction.

The Tech/FB fiasco is that US citizens are not being considered because the 
H1-B sorts are much cheaper.  Maybe US talent is inadequate (based on some of 
the young workers, not surprising).  Still, US employers should use US talent 
first, not undercut and hire slave wage workers.  

Clay


inter urinas et faeces nascimur

> On Dec 4, 2020, at 7:26 AM, Rick Knoble via Mercedes  
> wrote:
> 
> Max says:
> 
>> I've been thinking that the current situation of almost all virtual work 
>> (for those that can do so) is a losing proposition in the long term.
> 
> I would agree, but not for the reasons you state.
> If one can work for a company from home for $100k a year, that "work from 
> home" position can be done from India, Pakistan, or China for MUCH less. 
> Currently, there is a legal issue between FB and the DoJ over H-1b preference 
> over US citizen workers. "Work from home" (India), and the legal issue 
> disappears.
> 
> Blue collar jobs disappeared overseas in the eighties and nineties. White 
> collar jobs are next.
> 
> Rick

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Re: [MBZ] I can not believe how stupid people are

[Clay Monroe via Mercedes]

For virtual work to function well will require a mass change to home 
architecture to include work cells for kids and office drones.  In normal times 
social intercourse could be sustained in bars and dining spaces.  The current 
plague is swiftly ridding the landscape of any business lunch or social 
interaction locations.  

clay 

Who has Whuhoo flu hair style and a dentist who can no longer provide service 
under lock up regulations



> On Dec 4, 2020, at 4:09 AM, Meade Dillon via Mercedes  > wrote:
> 
> I've been thinking that the current situation of almost all virtual work
> (for those that can do so) is a losing proposition in the long term.  I'm
> not sure when the impact will be felt, but eventually the work-place
> relationships will shrivel up into superficial and shallow relationships,
> and the trust and social cohesion needed to keep an organization vital and
> energized and innovating will slip.  Companies / workplaces that maintain
> in-person environments will gain the advantage.  Perhaps some companies
> will develop business models that allow them to remain competitive, but I
> fear that those models will be brutal for the 'workers' and heavily benefit
> the company and its leadership.  Man is a social being, and there will be a
> price to pay for reducing workplace social contact.
> -
> Max
> Charleston SC



Clay


inter urinas et faeces nascimur

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Re: [MBZ] U.S. Cadillac Dealers to Exit Brand, Rather Than Sell Electric Cars

[Buggered Benzmail via Mercedes]

The 67 GTFO is one of my favorite cars of all time

--FT
Sent from iPhone

> On Dec 4, 2020, at 8:53 PM, Mitch Haley via Mercedes  
> wrote:
> 
> Dealers were allowed to opt out of Volt and ELR sales/service, but now it's 
> EV or GTFO.
> 
> Nobody would willingly sell a franchise for $1MM or less. Those 17% must have 
> decided that Caddy was a sinking ship and it was time to flee.
> 
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Re: [MBZ] U.S. Cadillac Dealers to Exit Brand, Rather Than Sell Electric Cars

[Mitch Haley via Mercedes]

Dealers were allowed to opt out of Volt and ELR sales/service, but now 
it's EV or GTFO.


Nobody would willingly sell a franchise for $1MM or less. Those 17% must 
have decided that Caddy was a sinking ship and it was time to flee.


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[MBZ] U.S. Cadillac Dealers to Exit Brand, Rather Than Sell Electric Cars

[Allan Streib via Mercedes]

GM recently gave Cadillac dealers a choice: Accept a buyout offer to
exit from the brand or spend roughly $200,000 on dealership upgrades---
including charging stations and repair tools---to get their stores ready
to sell electric vehicles, these people said.

The buyout offers ranged from around $300,000 to more than $1 million,
the people familiar with the effort added. About 17% of Cadilac's 880
U.S. dealerships agreed to take the offer to end their franchise
agreements for the luxury brand, these people said.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/about-150-u-s-cadillac-dealers-to-exit-brand-rather-than-sell-electric-cars-11607111494

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Re: [MBZ] 500 SEL $2,000

[Buggered Benzmail via Mercedes]

I see this all the time. Defies understanding 

--FT
Sent from iPhone

> On Dec 4, 2020, at 7:13 PM, Allan Streib via Mercedes  
> wrote:
> 

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[MBZ] 500 SEL $2,000

[Allan Streib via Mercedes]

Looks pretty clean. Why upload screenshots of your phone instead of the
actual photos?

https://cincinnati.craigslist.org/cto/d/cincinnati-1985-mercedes-benz-500-sel/7241342990.html

Allan

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Re: [MBZ] I can not believe how stupid people are -- now remote work

[Curt Raymond via Mercedes]

 You'd have to get rid of the CEO, CTO and all the other do nothing corporate 
types that eat up the vast majority of the budget while providing very little 
in return...
-Curt

On Friday, December 4, 2020, 3:57:17 PM EST, mi...@mitchellhaley.com 
 wrote:  
 
 On 2020-12-04 14:53, Curt Raymond via Mercedes wrote:
> I've read about folks who have workstations that track active time, so
> if you don't interact every 5 seconds or so it assumes you've left.
> Pretty good sign it's time to get a new job...

How hard is it to track $$$ spent vs work received, and give raises to 
the producers while nudging the useless ones towards the door?
  
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Re: [MBZ] I can not believe how stupid people are

[Curt Raymond via Mercedes]

 We outsourced some stuff to China about 12 years ago. After 1 year we stopped 
that, the code that came back was completely unusable.
Then we outsourced to the Ukraine and Russia invaded...
The problem with outsourcing is not the quality of the code its the oversight 
required to get quality code. Years ago I managed a call center in Canada. The 
biggest problem I had was that the call center was paid per call and then paid 
on an inverse scale for the duration of the call, meaning they got paid more 
for shorter calls.After a couple months I had customers telling me that wait 
times were high, we had a real time dashboard that told me calls were being 
answered in under a minute. Well they were but the call center then put you in 
a 10 minute queue hoping that you would hang up and call back so they could get 
paid again.
It made for some interesting conference calls. "I know you're cheating us, if 
you've been cheating us this week you were probably cheating us last week too. 
Here's what you're going to do to make it up lest I tell my bosses and we 
decide to sue your ass." What followed was a year of them cheating and me 
figuring out how to catch them. It was one of the more fun jobs I've ever had.
So the call center worked out well but only because we had an employee (me) 
dedicated to making sure we were getting what we paid for.

-Curt

On Friday, December 4, 2020, 3:47:15 PM EST, Mitch Haley via Mercedes 
 wrote:  
 
 On 2020-12-04 14:20, Allan Streib via Mercedes wrote:
> If it does prove to be that virtual workers are acceptible for many
> companies or jobs, the 6-figure-income techies in California can say
> goodbye to their jobs. There are smart motivated people in eastern
> Europe, Asia, and elsewhere who will do those jobs for a fraction of 
> the
> wages. Google, Amazon, etc. will not hesitate. The need for the workers
> to be physically present was the only bottleneck. They were already
> lobbying hard for increased work visa quotas so they could hire more
> Indian programmers (who they also pay less).

It's been credibly alleged (I have no direct knowledge) that Indian 
coders working remotely produce horrible code.

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Re: [MBZ] 1973 Mercedes-Benz,$7,000

[Dimitri Seretakis via Mercedes]

1973 was a transition year. I think that steering wheel might be correct on 
later production 1973 models.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Dec 4, 2020, at 11:43 AM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> Incorrect (and probably cracked) steering wheel is all wrong.  As is the
> price...
> 
>> On Fri, Dec 4, 2020 at 11:27 AM Floyd Thursby via Mercedes <
>> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
>> 
>> looks pretty nice
>> 
>> 
>> https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/13759591029/?ref=search_code=undefined
>> 
>> --
>> --FT
>> 
>> 
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Re: [MBZ] OT: I love this bike

[Mitch Haley via Mercedes]

I don't know why, but I entered this thread expecting an electrically 
assisted pedal bike, which seem to be all the rage among those of a 
certain age (Sammich loves his).


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Re: [MBZ] I can not believe how stupid people are

[Allan Streib via Mercedes]

Mitch Haley via Mercedes  writes:

> It's been credibly alleged (I have no direct knowledge) that Indian
> coders working remotely produce horrible code.

I've directly experienced it but it was about 10 years ago. No idea what
things are like today.

Allan

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Re: [MBZ] I can not believe how stupid people are -- now remote work

[Mitch Haley via Mercedes]

On 2020-12-04 14:53, Curt Raymond via Mercedes wrote:

I've read about folks who have workstations that track active time, so
if you don't interact every 5 seconds or so it assumes you've left.
Pretty good sign it's time to get a new job...


How hard is it to track $$$ spent vs work received, and give raises to 
the producers while nudging the useless ones towards the door?


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Re: [MBZ] I can not believe how stupid people are -- now remote work

[Mitch Haley via Mercedes]

On 2020-12-04 15:28, Dan Penoff via Mercedes wrote:

I’ve heard that our certification authorities are doing stuff like
this so they can still have people testing for certs. I’m curious as
to how they do it…


I did a 16 hour webinar for CPE credit last month.
4x an hour a prompt would appear on the screen, you had to push a button 
to open the dialog, then answer a question, then submit your answer 
within 30 seconds. One time the dialog disappeared as I was moving the 
mouse towards the submit button.
They said you didn't need to answer every time to get credit, but they 
didn't say how many misses were allowed.


Mitch, who needs to check his CPE account right about now...

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Re: [MBZ] I can not believe how stupid people are -- now remote work

[Allan Streib via Mercedes]

For the online exams, you have to install and use a "lockdown browser"
which takes over your computer and prevents you from accessing any other
applications or unapproved websites.

Your camera and microphone is used to verify that nobody else is in the
room helping you, and supposedly also to catch if you are using a
calculator, a separate computer, looking at notes or books if not
permitted, etc.

You have to submit a 360 camera view of the room to show what is on your
desk and that there are no other screens or computers.

All very Orwellian. I get that cheating is a thing, but a determined
cheater is going to cheat. At some point it's a cost of doing business
and trying to prevent it puts too much burden on the majority of people
who are (mostly) honest.

Allan


Dan Penoff via Mercedes  writes:

> I’ve heard that our certification authorities are doing stuff like this so 
> they can still have people testing for certs. I’m curious as to how they do 
> it…
>
> -D
>
>> On Dec 4, 2020, at 3:15 PM, Allan Streib via Mercedes 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> The next thing is using the camera and screenshots to verify that you
>> are sitting at the computer and actually working on work stuff. Similar
>> stuff is being done for students taking online exams, to try to detect
>> cheating.
>> 
>> Yeah I would not work under those conditions. Also since I use an
>> obscure OS at home, none of that would work on my computer.
>> 
>> Allan
>> 
>> 
>> Dan Penoff via Mercedes  writes:
>> 
>>> Agreed.
>>> 
>>> Just as there are app developers out there who have come up with apps
>>> that “twitch” your mouse every few minutes, too.
>>> 
>>> -D
>> 

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Re: [MBZ] I can not believe how stupid people are

[Mitch Haley via Mercedes]

On 2020-12-04 14:20, Allan Streib via Mercedes wrote:

If it does prove to be that virtual workers are acceptible for many
companies or jobs, the 6-figure-income techies in California can say
goodbye to their jobs. There are smart motivated people in eastern
Europe, Asia, and elsewhere who will do those jobs for a fraction of 
the

wages. Google, Amazon, etc. will not hesitate. The need for the workers
to be physically present was the only bottleneck. They were already
lobbying hard for increased work visa quotas so they could hire more
Indian programmers (who they also pay less).


It's been credibly alleged (I have no direct knowledge) that Indian 
coders working remotely produce horrible code.


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Re: [MBZ] I can not believe how stupid people are -- now remote work

[Allan Streib via Mercedes]

Rick Knoble via Mercedes  writes:

>>Also since I use an obscure OS at home,
>
> What OS?

OpenBSD.

Allan

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Re: [MBZ] I can not believe how stupid people are -- now remote work

[Dan Penoff via Mercedes]

I’ve heard that our certification authorities are doing stuff like this so they 
can still have people testing for certs. I’m curious as to how they do it…

-D

> On Dec 4, 2020, at 3:15 PM, Allan Streib via Mercedes  
> wrote:
> 
> The next thing is using the camera and screenshots to verify that you
> are sitting at the computer and actually working on work stuff. Similar
> stuff is being done for students taking online exams, to try to detect
> cheating.
> 
> Yeah I would not work under those conditions. Also since I use an
> obscure OS at home, none of that would work on my computer.
> 
> Allan
> 
> 
> Dan Penoff via Mercedes  writes:
> 
>> Agreed.
>> 
>> Just as there are app developers out there who have come up with apps
>> that “twitch” your mouse every few minutes, too.
>> 
>> -D
> 
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> 
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
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> 


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Re: [MBZ] I can not believe how stupid people are -- now remote work

[Rick Knoble via Mercedes]

>Also since I use an obscure OS at home,

What OS?


Rick
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Re: [MBZ] I can not believe how stupid people are -- now remote work

[Allan Streib via Mercedes]

The next thing is using the camera and screenshots to verify that you
are sitting at the computer and actually working on work stuff. Similar
stuff is being done for students taking online exams, to try to detect
cheating.

Yeah I would not work under those conditions. Also since I use an
obscure OS at home, none of that would work on my computer.

Allan


Dan Penoff via Mercedes  writes:

> Agreed.
>
> Just as there are app developers out there who have come up with apps
> that “twitch” your mouse every few minutes, too.
>
> -D

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Re: [MBZ] I can not believe how stupid people are -- now remote work

[Dan Penoff via Mercedes]

Agreed.

Just as there are app developers out there who have come up with apps that 
“twitch” your mouse every few minutes, too.

-D

> On Dec 4, 2020, at 2:53 PM, Curt Raymond  wrote:
> 
> I've read about folks who have workstations that track active time, so if you 
> don't interact every 5 seconds or so it assumes you've left. Pretty good sign 
> it's time to get a new job...
> 
> Curt
> 
> Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android 
> 
> On Fri, Dec 4, 2020 at 2:28 PM, Dan Penoff via Mercedes
> mailto:mercedes@okiebenz.com>> wrote:
> Our HR department was reaching out to find some sort of application or 
> logging method to track employee’s time via Active Directory or VPN access.
> 
> We pretty much told them “No” and explained that logging can’t be a means of 
> time racking, as it’s easy to spoof and doesn’t always relate directly to 
> specific operations or actions by a user.
> 
> For example, our Cisco VPN client regularly logs on and off in the background 
> as a normal part of it’s operation. So that’s a service function, not a user 
> one. Does it mean the user wasn’t working?
> 
> Slippery slope, for sure.
> 
> -D
> 
> > On Dec 4, 2020, at 2:23 PM, Curt Raymond  > > wrote:
> > 
> > I keep a definite separation of church and state, 8 hours after I log in I 
> > log out and go do something else.
> > Or sometimes, like hunting season, I take a couple hours off to hunt and 
> > log back in after dark.
> > I think the hip and trendy term is "work/life balance".
> > 
> > Curt
> > 
> > Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android 
> >  >  
> > >
> > On Fri, Dec 4, 2020 at 2:05 PM, Dan Penoff via Mercedes
> > mailto:mercedes@okiebenz.com>> wrote:
> > This is a common finding in the research on remote workers who work from 
> > home. They typically put in more hours because there’s no disconnect 
> > between home and work. There can also be concerns that there is a 
> > perception that if they’re not producing they’re not working. This is also 
> > something that’s come up in research as well.
> > 
> > We’ve focused on task or project completion, not watching clocks, and that 
> > seems to work well. As my boss says, he doesn’t care where or how much you 
> > work as long as things get done and when expected.
> > 
> > -D
> > 
> > > On Dec 4, 2020, at 12:29 PM, Andrew Strasfogel  > >   > > >> wrote:
> > > 
> > > I was teleworking full time before I retired this summer and as you said, 
> > > missed the daily interactions with other humans.  I also found that 
> > > working from home meant LONGER hours, since I had no reason to log out 
> > > and there was always a new email to open, which often kept me well beyond 
> > > 8 hours.  
> > > 
> > > On Fri, Dec 4, 2020 at 12:03 PM Dan Penoff via Mercedes 
> > > mailto:mercedes@okiebenz.com> 
> > > > 
> > >  
> > >  > > I would agree with this. I have a team that I work with, two of which are 
> > > younger people about 20 years my junior, and one who is a few years older 
> > > than me. We all get along well and have a lot of common interests, so the 
> > > social interaction was definitely a part of the work day. I definitely 
> > > miss that aspect of work.
> > > 
> > > The other aspect that hasn’t been mentioned here is what I would describe 
> > > as a “separation of duties”, although that’s not the ideal description.
> > > 
> > > I’m talking about the distinct delineation of “work” versus “home”. That 
> > > is, when I leave work, I’m done for the day both mentally and physically. 
> > > That’s not the case when you’re working from home. This is probably the 
> > > big negative for me when it comes to working from home. I like the 
> > > physical separation between the two environments.
> > > 
> > > -D
> > > 
> > > > On Dec 4, 2020, at 11:51 AM, Floyd Thursby via Mercedes 
> > > > mailto:mercedes@okiebenz.com> 
> > > > > 
> > > >  
> > > >  > > > 
> > > > I realized when I was at Lotus that I was working mostly with people 
> > > > who were not in my office so it really didn't matter much where I was. 

Re: [MBZ] I can not believe how stupid people are -- now remote work

[Curt Raymond via Mercedes]

I've read about folks who have workstations that track active time, so if you 
don't interact every 5 seconds or so it assumes you've left. Pretty good sign 
it's time to get a new job...
Curt

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android 
 
  On Fri, Dec 4, 2020 at 2:28 PM, Dan Penoff via 
Mercedes wrote:   Our HR department was reaching out to 
find some sort of application or logging method to track employee’s time via 
Active Directory or VPN access.

We pretty much told them “No” and explained that logging can’t be a means of 
time racking, as it’s easy to spoof and doesn’t always relate directly to 
specific operations or actions by a user.

For example, our Cisco VPN client regularly logs on and off in the background 
as a normal part of it’s operation. So that’s a service function, not a user 
one. Does it mean the user wasn’t working?

Slippery slope, for sure.

-D

> On Dec 4, 2020, at 2:23 PM, Curt Raymond  wrote:
> 
> I keep a definite separation of church and state, 8 hours after I log in I 
> log out and go do something else.
> Or sometimes, like hunting season, I take a couple hours off to hunt and log 
> back in after dark.
> I think the hip and trendy term is "work/life balance".
> 
> Curt
> 
> Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android 
> 
> On Fri, Dec 4, 2020 at 2:05 PM, Dan Penoff via Mercedes
>  wrote:
> This is a common finding in the research on remote workers who work from 
> home. They typically put in more hours because there’s no disconnect between 
> home and work. There can also be concerns that there is a perception that if 
> they’re not producing they’re not working. This is also something that’s come 
> up in research as well.
> 
> We’ve focused on task or project completion, not watching clocks, and that 
> seems to work well. As my boss says, he doesn’t care where or how much you 
> work as long as things get done and when expected.
> 
> -D
> 
> > On Dec 4, 2020, at 12:29 PM, Andrew Strasfogel  > > wrote:
> > 
> > I was teleworking full time before I retired this summer and as you said, 
> > missed the daily interactions with other humans.  I also found that working 
> > from home meant LONGER hours, since I had no reason to log out and there 
> > was always a new email to open, which often kept me well beyond 8 hours.  
> > 
> > On Fri, Dec 4, 2020 at 12:03 PM Dan Penoff via Mercedes 
> > mailto:mercedes@okiebenz.com> 
> > >> wrote:
> > I would agree with this. I have a team that I work with, two of which are 
> > younger people about 20 years my junior, and one who is a few years older 
> > than me. We all get along well and have a lot of common interests, so the 
> > social interaction was definitely a part of the work day. I definitely miss 
> > that aspect of work.
> > 
> > The other aspect that hasn’t been mentioned here is what I would describe 
> > as a “separation of duties”, although that’s not the ideal description.
> > 
> > I’m talking about the distinct delineation of “work” versus “home”. That 
> > is, when I leave work, I’m done for the day both mentally and physically. 
> > That’s not the case when you’re working from home. This is probably the big 
> > negative for me when it comes to working from home. I like the physical 
> > separation between the two environments.
> > 
> > -D
> > 
> > > On Dec 4, 2020, at 11:51 AM, Floyd Thursby via Mercedes 
> > > mailto:mercedes@okiebenz.com> 
> > > >> wrote:
> > > 
> > > I realized when I was at Lotus that I was working mostly with people who 
> > > were not in my office so it really didn't matter much where I was.  
> > > Instead of fighting traffic at 830 I would drop the kids at school, go 
> > > home and work for a coupla hours, make phone calls, emails, work on 
> > > computer stuff, whatever.  Then I would head into the office for the 
> > > afternoon and if I needed to meet with anyone I could do that.  I got 
> > > more done at home without the distractions, and dealing with colleagues 
> > > in England or Europe was fine from home.  It was a really nice sorta 
> > > hybrid scheme. Working always from home got to be old, even though I got 
> > > more done and it was relaxing and flexible, I missed the social 
> > > interactions, random drop-in discussions, and serendipitous ideas that 
> > > popped up being around other people and seeing them in the cafeteria or 
> > > hallways.  It was just easier in a lot of ways to get a job done being 
> > > around others, at least for some things.
> > > 
> > > IBM went to a remote work environment back in the late 90s, got rid of a 
> > > lot of office space but still had some for meetings/conf rooms and hot 
> > > desking if you needed to be somewhere with those resources.  Most 

Re: [MBZ] OT: $800 MacBook with iPhone CPU?

[Craig via Mercedes]

On Fri, 4 Dec 2020 14:22:46 -0500 Dan Penoff via Mercedes
 wrote:

> Hee. Having been a trainer, I can really relate to this.

I ran into it when I was a TA for an undergraduate physics lab class.
At one point I got tired of students writing their lab report around
the (sloppy and confusing!) raw data they took and said I would start
grading by looking for the raw data and grading everything after that,
which meant I ignored everything before the raw data, even if that
included abstract, introduction, et al.

Even after telling them multiple times, you would (not?) believe the howl
I got from some students when they received their lab books back.


Craig


> 
> > On Dec 4, 2020, at 2:19 PM, Curt Raymond  wrote:
> > 
> > I get one or two students in every class that dont listen and end up
> > with no GUI. "So it's like I told you..."
> > 
> > Curt
> > 
> > Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android
> > 
> > On Fri, Dec 4, 2020 at 11:36 AM, Dan Penoff via Mercedes
> >  wrote: I know, it’s just that I find it
> > annoying. That and if you’re a relative newbie and don’t know to
> > avoid this during setup, you’re surprised by a machine and interface
> > you didn’t expect.

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Re: [MBZ] I can not believe how stupid people are

[Kaleb Striplin via Mercedes]

I will say this I have worked remotely the last 15 years. At my previous job we 
had company meetings and people got to know each other there pretty well. Aside 
from that we got to know each other well on our weekly calls, just calling each 
other for help etc. We were not millennials though and probably know how to 
interact with people be it in person or remote. At my new job which I have been 
at a year, some folks I have been out on site with have developed into 
friendships somewhat. Most of these are older folks my age. We have a ton of 
millennials that work for us and no relationship has been built with them at 
all. One guy I did a couple of installs with is about my age and he said when 
he is paired up with somebody he will ask them 3 non work related questions. If 
by the 3rd question they have not asked him some sort of not work related 
question, he is done trying with them. We are talking about things such as 
favorite movie, hobbies, stuff like that. He says almost all of them will 
answer but never ask him anything in return to keep the conversation going. 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Dec 4, 2020, at 1:21 PM, Allan Streib via Mercedes  
> wrote:
> 
> I feel the same way. You said it better than I did in a reply that I
> started and then trashed.
> 
> Also it's one thing for established workers to continue their jobs
> remotely, but it seems to me very difficult to bring on new hires and
> get them integrated into the "team" if everything is remote and you
> don't get to actually meet anybody or work with them during an
> introductory or training period. I guess you can try to do that
> virtually also but I don't think it would be optimal.
> 
> If it does prove to be that virtual workers are acceptible for many
> companies or jobs, the 6-figure-income techies in California can say
> goodbye to their jobs. There are smart motivated people in eastern
> Europe, Asia, and elsewhere who will do those jobs for a fraction of the
> wages. Google, Amazon, etc. will not hesitate. The need for the workers
> to be physically present was the only bottleneck. They were already
> lobbying hard for increased work visa quotas so they could hire more
> Indian programmers (who they also pay less).
> 
> Allan
> 
> 
> Meade Dillon via Mercedes  writes:
> 
>> I've been thinking that the current situation of almost all virtual
>> work (for those that can do so) is a losing proposition in the long
>> term.  I'm not sure when the impact will be felt, but eventually the
>> work-place relationships will shrivel up into superficial and shallow
>> relationships, and the trust and social cohesion needed to keep an
>> organization vital and energized and innovating will slip.  Companies
>> / workplaces that maintain in-person environments will gain the
>> advantage.  Perhaps some companies will develop business models that
>> allow them to remain competitive, but I fear that those models will be
>> brutal for the 'workers' and heavily benefit the company and its
>> leadership.  Man is a social being, and there will be a price to pay
>> for reducing workplace social contact.
>> -
>> Max
>> Charleston SC
>> 
>> 
>>> On Fri, Dec 4, 2020 at 1:48 AM Scott Ritchey via Mercedes <
>>> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> If we still have the Internet and virtual processes used during
>>> COVID, do we really need markets and exchanges in big cities?  Why
>>> can't all that be virtual from wherever?  With online banking,
>>> investing, etc. I think we are close to that now.  There is, however,
>>> a serious drawback in reduced social contact:
>>> https://biggeekdad.com/2016/12/the-millennial-question/
>>> 
>>> The traditional retirement investment was to have kids who can take
>>> care of you in old age.  If we, as a nation, continue to have too few
>>> children it won't matter how much gold or dollars the old geezers
>>> have; there will be no care-givers to hire, at least not American
>>> ones.
>>> 
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From:  Allan Streib via Mercedes
>>> 
>>> Subject: Re: [MBZ] I can not believe how stupid people are
>>> 
>>> I get the sentiment but we need both unless we revert to pure
>>> subsistence living. Farmers absolutely need commodities markets in
>>> Chicago and New York, for example. Anyone with any substantial assets
>>> needs insurance. Anyone who wants income to retire on needs
>>> investments.
>>> 
>>> ...
> 
> -- 
> Allan Streib
> Indiana University
> Luddy School of Informatics, Computing, and Engineering
> Digital Science Center | Intelligent Systems Engineering | FutureSystems
> 
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> 
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
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> 


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Re: [MBZ] I can not believe how stupid people are -- now remote work

[Dan Penoff via Mercedes]

Our HR department was reaching out to find some sort of application or logging 
method to track employee’s time via Active Directory or VPN access.

We pretty much told them “No” and explained that logging can’t be a means of 
time racking, as it’s easy to spoof and doesn’t always relate directly to 
specific operations or actions by a user.

For example, our Cisco VPN client regularly logs on and off in the background 
as a normal part of it’s operation. So that’s a service function, not a user 
one. Does it mean the user wasn’t working?

Slippery slope, for sure.

-D

> On Dec 4, 2020, at 2:23 PM, Curt Raymond  wrote:
> 
> I keep a definite separation of church and state, 8 hours after I log in I 
> log out and go do something else.
> Or sometimes, like hunting season, I take a couple hours off to hunt and log 
> back in after dark.
> I think the hip and trendy term is "work/life balance".
> 
> Curt
> 
> Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android 
> 
> On Fri, Dec 4, 2020 at 2:05 PM, Dan Penoff via Mercedes
>  wrote:
> This is a common finding in the research on remote workers who work from 
> home. They typically put in more hours because there’s no disconnect between 
> home and work. There can also be concerns that there is a perception that if 
> they’re not producing they’re not working. This is also something that’s come 
> up in research as well.
> 
> We’ve focused on task or project completion, not watching clocks, and that 
> seems to work well. As my boss says, he doesn’t care where or how much you 
> work as long as things get done and when expected.
> 
> -D
> 
> > On Dec 4, 2020, at 12:29 PM, Andrew Strasfogel  > > wrote:
> > 
> > I was teleworking full time before I retired this summer and as you said, 
> > missed the daily interactions with other humans.  I also found that working 
> > from home meant LONGER hours, since I had no reason to log out and there 
> > was always a new email to open, which often kept me well beyond 8 hours.  
> > 
> > On Fri, Dec 4, 2020 at 12:03 PM Dan Penoff via Mercedes 
> > mailto:mercedes@okiebenz.com> 
> > >> wrote:
> > I would agree with this. I have a team that I work with, two of which are 
> > younger people about 20 years my junior, and one who is a few years older 
> > than me. We all get along well and have a lot of common interests, so the 
> > social interaction was definitely a part of the work day. I definitely miss 
> > that aspect of work.
> > 
> > The other aspect that hasn’t been mentioned here is what I would describe 
> > as a “separation of duties”, although that’s not the ideal description.
> > 
> > I’m talking about the distinct delineation of “work” versus “home”. That 
> > is, when I leave work, I’m done for the day both mentally and physically. 
> > That’s not the case when you’re working from home. This is probably the big 
> > negative for me when it comes to working from home. I like the physical 
> > separation between the two environments.
> > 
> > -D
> > 
> > > On Dec 4, 2020, at 11:51 AM, Floyd Thursby via Mercedes 
> > > mailto:mercedes@okiebenz.com> 
> > > >> wrote:
> > > 
> > > I realized when I was at Lotus that I was working mostly with people who 
> > > were not in my office so it really didn't matter much where I was.  
> > > Instead of fighting traffic at 830 I would drop the kids at school, go 
> > > home and work for a coupla hours, make phone calls, emails, work on 
> > > computer stuff, whatever.  Then I would head into the office for the 
> > > afternoon and if I needed to meet with anyone I could do that.  I got 
> > > more done at home without the distractions, and dealing with colleagues 
> > > in England or Europe was fine from home.  It was a really nice sorta 
> > > hybrid scheme. Working always from home got to be old, even though I got 
> > > more done and it was relaxing and flexible, I missed the social 
> > > interactions, random drop-in discussions, and serendipitous ideas that 
> > > popped up being around other people and seeing them in the cafeteria or 
> > > hallways.  It was just easier in a lot of ways to get a job done being 
> > > around others, at least for some things.
> > > 
> > > IBM went to a remote work environment back in the late 90s, got rid of a 
> > > lot of office space but still had some for meetings/conf rooms and hot 
> > > desking if you needed to be somewhere with those resources.  Most of the 
> > > people were always traveling somewhere anyway so it did not make a lot of 
> > > difference.  I spent a lot of time in hotels, airports, airplanes, and 
> > > off-site partners and our other offices so it was fine with me though I 
> > > did (until I moved away) have an office at our main 

Re: [MBZ] OT: $800 MacBook with iPhone CPU?

[Curt Raymond via Mercedes]

The other one, in VM, building a Microsoft cluster with 2 members you need a 
total of 4 drives, 2 get shared between the members. Somebody always ends up 
making 6 drives, no shares and can't figure out why the cluster fails...Took me 
hours to figure out what they had done the first time I saw it...
Curt

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android 
 
  On Fri, Dec 4, 2020 at 2:23 PM, Dan Penoff via 
Mercedes wrote:   Hee. Having been a trainer, I can 
really relate to this.

-D

> On Dec 4, 2020, at 2:19 PM, Curt Raymond  wrote:
> 
> I get one or two students in every class that dont listen and end up with no 
> GUI. "So it's like I told you..."
> 
> Curt
> 
> Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android 
> 
> On Fri, Dec 4, 2020 at 11:36 AM, Dan Penoff via Mercedes
>  wrote:
> I know, it’s just that I find it annoying. That and if you’re a relative 
> newbie and don’t know to avoid this during setup, you’re surprised by a 
> machine and interface you didn’t expect.
> 
> -D
> 
> > On Dec 4, 2020, at 10:55 AM, Curt Raymond  > > wrote:
> > 
> > 16 and 19 both ask during install.
> > 
> > Curt
> > 
> > Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android 
> >  >  
> > >
> > On Fri, Dec 4, 2020 at 6:42 AM, Dan Penoff via Mercedes
> > mailto:mercedes@okiebenz.com>> wrote:
> > The thing I didn’t care for in the later Windows Server products was that 
> > the “base” install is a headless design, CLI only.
> > 
> > -D
> > 
> > > On Dec 3, 2020, at 8:42 PM, Curt Raymond via Mercedes 
> > > mailto:mercedes@okiebenz.com> 
> > > >> wrote:
> > > 
> > > For Windows 10 I've given up on using menus for anything. I just hit the 
> > > windows key and start typing what I want. I've gotta say its not so bad, 
> > > no searching through menus, just let Windows find it for me.
> > > Actually my favorite OS right now is Windows Server 2016, actually 2019 
> > > seems mostly the same from a UI perspective. Very old school look, 
> > > minimal GUI, more like WinXP than Win10. Much better than 2012 which was 
> > > like Win8. Too bad its very expensive although you could use the free 
> > > trial for half a year at a time.
> > > 
> > > -Curt
> > > 
> > >    On Thursday, December 3, 2020, 3:57:21 PM EST, Mitch Haley via 
> > >Mercedes mailto:mercedes@okiebenz.com> 
> > >>> wrote:  
> > > 
> > > On 2020-12-03 15:18, Scott Ritchey via Mercedes wrote:
> > >>  I never saw any benefit to those stupid boxes in Win10.
> > >> AND it's not worth my time to learn a new GUI every time some liberal 
> > >> arts
> > >> clown at Micro$oft has a wild hair.
> > > 
> > > Now that you mention it, I run everything at work off a Win10 Desktop 
> > > homescreen, except I have to hit
> > > some key combo like CTRL-I to get a power button. I just got that 
> > > computer at the end of January, and haven't seen it since we closed the 
> > > office March 23.
> > > 
> > > ___
> > > http://www.okiebenz.com  
> > >  > > >
> > > 
> > > To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/  
> > >  > > >
> > > 
> > > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> > > http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com  
> > >  > >  >
> 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > ___
> > > http://www.okiebenz.com  
> > >  > > >
> > > 
> > > To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/  
> > >  > > >
> > > 
> > > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
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> > >  > >  >
> > 
> > > 
> > 
> > 
> > ___
> > http://www.okiebenz.com  
> > 

Re: [MBZ] I can not believe how stupid people are -- now remote work

[Curt Raymond via Mercedes]

I keep a definite separation of church and state, 8 hours after I log in I log 
out and go do something else.Or sometimes, like hunting season, I take a couple 
hours off to hunt and log back in after dark.I think the hip and trendy term is 
"work/life balance".
Curt

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android 
 
  On Fri, Dec 4, 2020 at 2:05 PM, Dan Penoff via 
Mercedes wrote:   This is a common finding in the 
research on remote workers who work from home. They typically put in more hours 
because there’s no disconnect between home and work. There can also be concerns 
that there is a perception that if they’re not producing they’re not working. 
This is also something that’s come up in research as well.

We’ve focused on task or project completion, not watching clocks, and that 
seems to work well. As my boss says, he doesn’t care where or how much you work 
as long as things get done and when expected.

-D

> On Dec 4, 2020, at 12:29 PM, Andrew Strasfogel  wrote:
> 
> I was teleworking full time before I retired this summer and as you said, 
> missed the daily interactions with other humans.  I also found that working 
> from home meant LONGER hours, since I had no reason to log out and there was 
> always a new email to open, which often kept me well beyond 8 hours.  
> 
> On Fri, Dec 4, 2020 at 12:03 PM Dan Penoff via Mercedes 
> mailto:mercedes@okiebenz.com>> wrote:
> I would agree with this. I have a team that I work with, two of which are 
> younger people about 20 years my junior, and one who is a few years older 
> than me. We all get along well and have a lot of common interests, so the 
> social interaction was definitely a part of the work day. I definitely miss 
> that aspect of work.
> 
> The other aspect that hasn’t been mentioned here is what I would describe as 
> a “separation of duties”, although that’s not the ideal description.
> 
> I’m talking about the distinct delineation of “work” versus “home”. That is, 
> when I leave work, I’m done for the day both mentally and physically. That’s 
> not the case when you’re working from home. This is probably the big negative 
> for me when it comes to working from home. I like the physical separation 
> between the two environments.
> 
> -D
> 
> > On Dec 4, 2020, at 11:51 AM, Floyd Thursby via Mercedes 
> > mailto:mercedes@okiebenz.com>> wrote:
> > 
> > I realized when I was at Lotus that I was working mostly with people who 
> > were not in my office so it really didn't matter much where I was.  Instead 
> > of fighting traffic at 830 I would drop the kids at school, go home and 
> > work for a coupla hours, make phone calls, emails, work on computer stuff, 
> > whatever.  Then I would head into the office for the afternoon and if I 
> > needed to meet with anyone I could do that.  I got more done at home 
> > without the distractions, and dealing with colleagues in England or Europe 
> > was fine from home.  It was a really nice sorta hybrid scheme. Working 
> > always from home got to be old, even though I got more done and it was 
> > relaxing and flexible, I missed the social interactions, random drop-in 
> > discussions, and serendipitous ideas that popped up being around other 
> > people and seeing them in the cafeteria or hallways.  It was just easier in 
> > a lot of ways to get a job done being around others, at least for some 
> > things.
> > 
> > IBM went to a remote work environment back in the late 90s, got rid of a 
> > lot of office space but still had some for meetings/conf rooms and hot 
> > desking if you needed to be somewhere with those resources.  Most of the 
> > people were always traveling somewhere anyway so it did not make a lot of 
> > difference.  I spent a lot of time in hotels, airports, airplanes, and 
> > off-site partners and our other offices so it was fine with me though I did 
> > (until I moved away) have an office at our main building in Cambridge with 
> > a killer view of Boston and the river.  Plus I really liked a lot of the 
> > people I worked with so that was nice to be around friends.
> > 
> > But yeah, the social interaction is a key factor not just in work but in 
> > lots of other things, I find that people are getting cranky and ill-behaved 
> > not having that.
> > 
> > --FT
> > 
> > On 12/4/20 9:26 AM, Dan Penoff via Mercedes wrote:
> >> And in a nutshell that’s what this company found. While the initial 
> >> approach was to let roughly 50% of the employees work remotely, about a 
> >> third of those ended up wanting to return t the office if I recall 
> >> correctly. Many of them were younger people whose social lives involved 
> >> relationships with their (work) peers.
> >> 
> >> It was pretty interesting, I thought.
> >> 
> >> -D
> >> 
> >>> On Dec 4, 2020, at 9:17 AM, M. Mitchell Marmel via Mercedes 
> >>> mailto:mercedes@okiebenz.com>> wrote:
> >>> 
> >>> A wise company will do an intelligent mix.  Those who do better working
> >>> from home, work from home.  Those who do better in an office 

Re: [MBZ] OT: $800 MacBook with iPhone CPU?

[Dan Penoff via Mercedes]

Hee. Having been a trainer, I can really relate to this.

-D

> On Dec 4, 2020, at 2:19 PM, Curt Raymond  wrote:
> 
> I get one or two students in every class that dont listen and end up with no 
> GUI. "So it's like I told you..."
> 
> Curt
> 
> Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android 
> 
> On Fri, Dec 4, 2020 at 11:36 AM, Dan Penoff via Mercedes
>  wrote:
> I know, it’s just that I find it annoying. That and if you’re a relative 
> newbie and don’t know to avoid this during setup, you’re surprised by a 
> machine and interface you didn’t expect.
> 
> -D
> 
> > On Dec 4, 2020, at 10:55 AM, Curt Raymond  > > wrote:
> > 
> > 16 and 19 both ask during install.
> > 
> > Curt
> > 
> > Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android 
> >  >  
> > >
> > On Fri, Dec 4, 2020 at 6:42 AM, Dan Penoff via Mercedes
> > mailto:mercedes@okiebenz.com>> wrote:
> > The thing I didn’t care for in the later Windows Server products was that 
> > the “base” install is a headless design, CLI only.
> > 
> > -D
> > 
> > > On Dec 3, 2020, at 8:42 PM, Curt Raymond via Mercedes 
> > > mailto:mercedes@okiebenz.com> 
> > > >> wrote:
> > > 
> > > For Windows 10 I've given up on using menus for anything. I just hit the 
> > > windows key and start typing what I want. I've gotta say its not so bad, 
> > > no searching through menus, just let Windows find it for me.
> > > Actually my favorite OS right now is Windows Server 2016, actually 2019 
> > > seems mostly the same from a UI perspective. Very old school look, 
> > > minimal GUI, more like WinXP than Win10. Much better than 2012 which was 
> > > like Win8. Too bad its very expensive although you could use the free 
> > > trial for half a year at a time.
> > > 
> > > -Curt
> > > 
> > >On Thursday, December 3, 2020, 3:57:21 PM EST, Mitch Haley via 
> > > Mercedes mailto:mercedes@okiebenz.com> 
> > > >> wrote:  
> > > 
> > > On 2020-12-03 15:18, Scott Ritchey via Mercedes wrote:
> > >>  I never saw any benefit to those stupid boxes in Win10.
> > >> AND it's not worth my time to learn a new GUI every time some liberal 
> > >> arts
> > >> clown at Micro$oft has a wild hair.
> > > 
> > > Now that you mention it, I run everything at work off a Win10 Desktop 
> > > homescreen, except I have to hit
> > > some key combo like CTRL-I to get a power button. I just got that 
> > > computer at the end of January, and haven't seen it since we closed the 
> > > office March 23.
> > > 
> > > ___
> > > http://www.okiebenz.com  
> > >  > > >
> > > 
> > > To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/  
> > >  > > >
> > > 
> > > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> > > http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com  
> > >  > >  >
> 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > ___
> > > http://www.okiebenz.com  
> > >  > > >
> > > 
> > > To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/  
> > >  > > >
> > > 
> > > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> > > http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com  
> > >  > >  >
> > 
> > > 
> > 
> > 
> > ___
> > http://www.okiebenz.com  
> >  > >
> > 
> > To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/  
> >  > >
> > 
> > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> > http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com  
> > 

Re: [MBZ] OT: $800 MacBook with iPhone CPU?

[Curt Raymond via Mercedes]

I get one or two students in every class that dont listen and end up with no 
GUI. "So it's like I told you..."
Curt

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android 
 
  On Fri, Dec 4, 2020 at 11:36 AM, Dan Penoff via 
Mercedes wrote:   I know, it’s just that I find it 
annoying. That and if you’re a relative newbie and don’t know to avoid this 
during setup, you’re surprised by a machine and interface you didn’t expect.

-D

> On Dec 4, 2020, at 10:55 AM, Curt Raymond  wrote:
> 
> 16 and 19 both ask during install.
> 
> Curt
> 
> Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android 
> 
> On Fri, Dec 4, 2020 at 6:42 AM, Dan Penoff via Mercedes
>  wrote:
> The thing I didn’t care for in the later Windows Server products was that the 
> “base” install is a headless design, CLI only.
> 
> -D
> 
> > On Dec 3, 2020, at 8:42 PM, Curt Raymond via Mercedes 
> > mailto:mercedes@okiebenz.com>> wrote:
> > 
> > For Windows 10 I've given up on using menus for anything. I just hit the 
> > windows key and start typing what I want. I've gotta say its not so bad, no 
> > searching through menus, just let Windows find it for me.
> > Actually my favorite OS right now is Windows Server 2016, actually 2019 
> > seems mostly the same from a UI perspective. Very old school look, minimal 
> > GUI, more like WinXP than Win10. Much better than 2012 which was like Win8. 
> > Too bad its very expensive although you could use the free trial for half a 
> > year at a time.
> > 
> > -Curt
> > 
> >    On Thursday, December 3, 2020, 3:57:21 PM EST, Mitch Haley via Mercedes 
> >mailto:mercedes@okiebenz.com>> wrote:  
> > 
> > On 2020-12-03 15:18, Scott Ritchey via Mercedes wrote:
> >>  I never saw any benefit to those stupid boxes in Win10.
> >> AND it's not worth my time to learn a new GUI every time some liberal 
> >> arts
> >> clown at Micro$oft has a wild hair.
> > 
> > Now that you mention it, I run everything at work off a Win10 Desktop 
> > homescreen, except I have to hit
> > some key combo like CTRL-I to get a power button. I just got that 
> > computer at the end of January, and haven't seen it since we closed the 
> > office March 23.
> > 
> > ___
> > http://www.okiebenz.com 
> > 
> > To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ 
> > 
> > 
> > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> > http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > ___
> > http://www.okiebenz.com 
> > 
> > To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ 
> > 
> > 
> > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> > http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> 
> ___
> http://www.okiebenz.com 
> 
> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ 
> 
> 
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com 
> 
> 

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Re: [MBZ] I can not believe how stupid people are

[Allan Streib via Mercedes]

I feel the same way. You said it better than I did in a reply that I
started and then trashed.

Also it's one thing for established workers to continue their jobs
remotely, but it seems to me very difficult to bring on new hires and
get them integrated into the "team" if everything is remote and you
don't get to actually meet anybody or work with them during an
introductory or training period. I guess you can try to do that
virtually also but I don't think it would be optimal.

If it does prove to be that virtual workers are acceptible for many
companies or jobs, the 6-figure-income techies in California can say
goodbye to their jobs. There are smart motivated people in eastern
Europe, Asia, and elsewhere who will do those jobs for a fraction of the
wages. Google, Amazon, etc. will not hesitate. The need for the workers
to be physically present was the only bottleneck. They were already
lobbying hard for increased work visa quotas so they could hire more
Indian programmers (who they also pay less).

Allan


Meade Dillon via Mercedes  writes:

> I've been thinking that the current situation of almost all virtual
> work (for those that can do so) is a losing proposition in the long
> term.  I'm not sure when the impact will be felt, but eventually the
> work-place relationships will shrivel up into superficial and shallow
> relationships, and the trust and social cohesion needed to keep an
> organization vital and energized and innovating will slip.  Companies
> / workplaces that maintain in-person environments will gain the
> advantage.  Perhaps some companies will develop business models that
> allow them to remain competitive, but I fear that those models will be
> brutal for the 'workers' and heavily benefit the company and its
> leadership.  Man is a social being, and there will be a price to pay
> for reducing workplace social contact.
> -
> Max
> Charleston SC
>
>
> On Fri, Dec 4, 2020 at 1:48 AM Scott Ritchey via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
>
>> If we still have the Internet and virtual processes used during
>> COVID, do we really need markets and exchanges in big cities?  Why
>> can't all that be virtual from wherever?  With online banking,
>> investing, etc. I think we are close to that now.  There is, however,
>> a serious drawback in reduced social contact:
>> https://biggeekdad.com/2016/12/the-millennial-question/
>>
>> The traditional retirement investment was to have kids who can take
>> care of you in old age.  If we, as a nation, continue to have too few
>> children it won't matter how much gold or dollars the old geezers
>> have; there will be no care-givers to hire, at least not American
>> ones.
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From:  Allan Streib via Mercedes
>>
>> Subject: Re: [MBZ] I can not believe how stupid people are
>>
>> I get the sentiment but we need both unless we revert to pure
>> subsistence living. Farmers absolutely need commodities markets in
>> Chicago and New York, for example. Anyone with any substantial assets
>> needs insurance. Anyone who wants income to retire on needs
>> investments.
>>
>> ...

-- 
Allan Streib
Indiana University
Luddy School of Informatics, Computing, and Engineering
Digital Science Center | Intelligent Systems Engineering | FutureSystems

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Re: [MBZ] I can not believe how stupid people are -- now remote work

[Dan Penoff via Mercedes]

This is a common finding in the research on remote workers who work from home. 
They typically put in more hours because there’s no disconnect between home and 
work. There can also be concerns that there is a perception that if they’re not 
producing they’re not working. This is also something that’s come up in 
research as well.

We’ve focused on task or project completion, not watching clocks, and that 
seems to work well. As my boss says, he doesn’t care where or how much you work 
as long as things get done and when expected.

-D

> On Dec 4, 2020, at 12:29 PM, Andrew Strasfogel  wrote:
> 
> I was teleworking full time before I retired this summer and as you said, 
> missed the daily interactions with other humans.  I also found that working 
> from home meant LONGER hours, since I had no reason to log out and there was 
> always a new email to open, which often kept me well beyond 8 hours.  
> 
> On Fri, Dec 4, 2020 at 12:03 PM Dan Penoff via Mercedes 
> mailto:mercedes@okiebenz.com>> wrote:
> I would agree with this. I have a team that I work with, two of which are 
> younger people about 20 years my junior, and one who is a few years older 
> than me. We all get along well and have a lot of common interests, so the 
> social interaction was definitely a part of the work day. I definitely miss 
> that aspect of work.
> 
> The other aspect that hasn’t been mentioned here is what I would describe as 
> a “separation of duties”, although that’s not the ideal description.
> 
> I’m talking about the distinct delineation of “work” versus “home”. That is, 
> when I leave work, I’m done for the day both mentally and physically. That’s 
> not the case when you’re working from home. This is probably the big negative 
> for me when it comes to working from home. I like the physical separation 
> between the two environments.
> 
> -D
> 
> > On Dec 4, 2020, at 11:51 AM, Floyd Thursby via Mercedes 
> > mailto:mercedes@okiebenz.com>> wrote:
> > 
> > I realized when I was at Lotus that I was working mostly with people who 
> > were not in my office so it really didn't matter much where I was.  Instead 
> > of fighting traffic at 830 I would drop the kids at school, go home and 
> > work for a coupla hours, make phone calls, emails, work on computer stuff, 
> > whatever.  Then I would head into the office for the afternoon and if I 
> > needed to meet with anyone I could do that.  I got more done at home 
> > without the distractions, and dealing with colleagues in England or Europe 
> > was fine from home.  It was a really nice sorta hybrid scheme. Working 
> > always from home got to be old, even though I got more done and it was 
> > relaxing and flexible, I missed the social interactions, random drop-in 
> > discussions, and serendipitous ideas that popped up being around other 
> > people and seeing them in the cafeteria or hallways.  It was just easier in 
> > a lot of ways to get a job done being around others, at least for some 
> > things.
> > 
> > IBM went to a remote work environment back in the late 90s, got rid of a 
> > lot of office space but still had some for meetings/conf rooms and hot 
> > desking if you needed to be somewhere with those resources.  Most of the 
> > people were always traveling somewhere anyway so it did not make a lot of 
> > difference.  I spent a lot of time in hotels, airports, airplanes, and 
> > off-site partners and our other offices so it was fine with me though I did 
> > (until I moved away) have an office at our main building in Cambridge with 
> > a killer view of Boston and the river.  Plus I really liked a lot of the 
> > people I worked with so that was nice to be around friends.
> > 
> > But yeah, the social interaction is a key factor not just in work but in 
> > lots of other things, I find that people are getting cranky and ill-behaved 
> > not having that.
> > 
> > --FT
> > 
> > On 12/4/20 9:26 AM, Dan Penoff via Mercedes wrote:
> >> And in a nutshell that’s what this company found. While the initial 
> >> approach was to let roughly 50% of the employees work remotely, about a 
> >> third of those ended up wanting to return t the office if I recall 
> >> correctly. Many of them were younger people whose social lives involved 
> >> relationships with their (work) peers.
> >> 
> >> It was pretty interesting, I thought.
> >> 
> >> -D
> >> 
> >>> On Dec 4, 2020, at 9:17 AM, M. Mitchell Marmel via Mercedes 
> >>> mailto:mercedes@okiebenz.com>> wrote:
> >>> 
> >>> A wise company will do an intelligent mix.   Those who do better working
> >>> from home, work from home.  Those who do better in an office environment,
> >>> work in an office.
> >>> ___
> >>> http://www.okiebenz.com 
> >>> 
> >>> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ 
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> >>> 

Re: [MBZ] I can not believe how stupid people are -- now remote work

[Randy Bennell via Mercedes]

On 04/12/2020 11:29 AM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes wrote:

I was teleworking full time before I retired this summer . . .


Did I miss something? I don't recall you saying you had retired.

Congratulations! You made it out alive.

RB


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Re: [MBZ] OT: I love this bike

[OK Don via Mercedes]

My '62 R69S looked just like that - but it also had a little folding
luggage rack thingy on the back. The Earl's fork front suspension goes up
during braking instead of down, so if you balanced the front and rear
brakes, you stayed level.

On Fri, Dec 4, 2020 at 10:44 AM Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> By the time the auction ends it will be in five figures and out of my
> range.
>
> On Fri, Dec 4, 2020 at 11:28 AM Randy Bennell via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
>
> > Just buy it and get it over with. Consider it an investment.
> >
> > RB
> >
> > On 04/12/2020 9:47 AM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes wrote:
> > > Somebody lock me away from the computer.
> > >
> > >
> >
> https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1965-bmw-r60-2-6/?utm_source=dm_medium=email_campaign=2020-12-04
> > > ___
> > >
> >
> >
> > ___
> > http://www.okiebenz.com
> >
> > To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
> >
> > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> > http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
> >
> >
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>
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>
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>
>

-- 
OK Don

"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to
pause and reflect." Mark Twain

“Basic research is what I’m doing when I don’t know what I am doing.”  Wernher
Von Braun
2013 F150, 18 mpg
2017 Subaru Legacy, 30 mpg
1957 C182A, 12 mpg - but at 150 mph!
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Re: [MBZ] I can not believe how stupid people are -- now remote work

[Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes]

I was teleworking full time before I retired this summer and as you said,
missed the daily interactions with other humans.  I also found that working
from home meant LONGER hours, since I had no reason to log out and there
was always a new email to open, which often kept me well beyond 8 hours.

On Fri, Dec 4, 2020 at 12:03 PM Dan Penoff via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> I would agree with this. I have a team that I work with, two of which are
> younger people about 20 years my junior, and one who is a few years older
> than me. We all get along well and have a lot of common interests, so the
> social interaction was definitely a part of the work day. I definitely miss
> that aspect of work.
>
> The other aspect that hasn’t been mentioned here is what I would describe
> as a “separation of duties”, although that’s not the ideal description.
>
> I’m talking about the distinct delineation of “work” versus “home”. That
> is, when I leave work, I’m done for the day both mentally and physically.
> That’s not the case when you’re working from home. This is probably the big
> negative for me when it comes to working from home. I like the physical
> separation between the two environments.
>
> -D
>
> > On Dec 4, 2020, at 11:51 AM, Floyd Thursby via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
> >
> > I realized when I was at Lotus that I was working mostly with people who
> were not in my office so it really didn't matter much where I was.  Instead
> of fighting traffic at 830 I would drop the kids at school, go home and
> work for a coupla hours, make phone calls, emails, work on computer stuff,
> whatever.  Then I would head into the office for the afternoon and if I
> needed to meet with anyone I could do that.  I got more done at home
> without the distractions, and dealing with colleagues in England or Europe
> was fine from home.  It was a really nice sorta hybrid scheme. Working
> always from home got to be old, even though I got more done and it was
> relaxing and flexible, I missed the social interactions, random drop-in
> discussions, and serendipitous ideas that popped up being around other
> people and seeing them in the cafeteria or hallways.  It was just easier in
> a lot of ways to get a job done being around others, at least for some
> things.
> >
> > IBM went to a remote work environment back in the late 90s, got rid of a
> lot of office space but still had some for meetings/conf rooms and hot
> desking if you needed to be somewhere with those resources.  Most of the
> people were always traveling somewhere anyway so it did not make a lot of
> difference.  I spent a lot of time in hotels, airports, airplanes, and
> off-site partners and our other offices so it was fine with me though I did
> (until I moved away) have an office at our main building in Cambridge with
> a killer view of Boston and the river.  Plus I really liked a lot of the
> people I worked with so that was nice to be around friends.
> >
> > But yeah, the social interaction is a key factor not just in work but in
> lots of other things, I find that people are getting cranky and ill-behaved
> not having that.
> >
> > --FT
> >
> > On 12/4/20 9:26 AM, Dan Penoff via Mercedes wrote:
> >> And in a nutshell that’s what this company found. While the initial
> approach was to let roughly 50% of the employees work remotely, about a
> third of those ended up wanting to return t the office if I recall
> correctly. Many of them were younger people whose social lives involved
> relationships with their (work) peers.
> >>
> >> It was pretty interesting, I thought.
> >>
> >> -D
> >>
> >>> On Dec 4, 2020, at 9:17 AM, M. Mitchell Marmel via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> A wise company will do an intelligent mix.   Those who do better
> working
> >>> from home, work from home.  Those who do better in an office
> environment,
> >>> work in an office.
> >>> ___
> >>> http://www.okiebenz.com
> >>>
> >>> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
> >>>
> >>> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> >>> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
> >>>
> >>
> >> ___
> >> http://www.okiebenz.com
> >>
> >> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
> >>
> >> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> >> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
> >>
> > --
> > --FT
> >
> >
> > ___
> > http://www.okiebenz.com
> >
> > To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
> >
> > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> > http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
> >
>
>
> ___
> http://www.okiebenz.com
>
> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> 

Re: [MBZ] I can not believe how stupid people are -- now remote work

[Dan Penoff via Mercedes]

I would agree with this. I have a team that I work with, two of which are 
younger people about 20 years my junior, and one who is a few years older than 
me. We all get along well and have a lot of common interests, so the social 
interaction was definitely a part of the work day. I definitely miss that 
aspect of work.

The other aspect that hasn’t been mentioned here is what I would describe as a 
“separation of duties”, although that’s not the ideal description.

I’m talking about the distinct delineation of “work” versus “home”. That is, 
when I leave work, I’m done for the day both mentally and physically. That’s 
not the case when you’re working from home. This is probably the big negative 
for me when it comes to working from home. I like the physical separation 
between the two environments.

-D

> On Dec 4, 2020, at 11:51 AM, Floyd Thursby via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> I realized when I was at Lotus that I was working mostly with people who were 
> not in my office so it really didn't matter much where I was.  Instead of 
> fighting traffic at 830 I would drop the kids at school, go home and work for 
> a coupla hours, make phone calls, emails, work on computer stuff, whatever.  
> Then I would head into the office for the afternoon and if I needed to meet 
> with anyone I could do that.  I got more done at home without the 
> distractions, and dealing with colleagues in England or Europe was fine from 
> home.  It was a really nice sorta hybrid scheme. Working always from home got 
> to be old, even though I got more done and it was relaxing and flexible, I 
> missed the social interactions, random drop-in discussions, and serendipitous 
> ideas that popped up being around other people and seeing them in the 
> cafeteria or hallways.  It was just easier in a lot of ways to get a job done 
> being around others, at least for some things.
> 
> IBM went to a remote work environment back in the late 90s, got rid of a lot 
> of office space but still had some for meetings/conf rooms and hot desking if 
> you needed to be somewhere with those resources.  Most of the people were 
> always traveling somewhere anyway so it did not make a lot of difference.  I 
> spent a lot of time in hotels, airports, airplanes, and off-site partners and 
> our other offices so it was fine with me though I did (until I moved away) 
> have an office at our main building in Cambridge with a killer view of Boston 
> and the river.  Plus I really liked a lot of the people I worked with so that 
> was nice to be around friends.
> 
> But yeah, the social interaction is a key factor not just in work but in lots 
> of other things, I find that people are getting cranky and ill-behaved not 
> having that.
> 
> --FT
> 
> On 12/4/20 9:26 AM, Dan Penoff via Mercedes wrote:
>> And in a nutshell that’s what this company found. While the initial approach 
>> was to let roughly 50% of the employees work remotely, about a third of 
>> those ended up wanting to return t the office if I recall correctly. Many of 
>> them were younger people whose social lives involved relationships with 
>> their (work) peers.
>> 
>> It was pretty interesting, I thought.
>> 
>> -D
>> 
>>> On Dec 4, 2020, at 9:17 AM, M. Mitchell Marmel via Mercedes 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> A wise company will do an intelligent mix.   Those who do better working
>>> from home, work from home.  Those who do better in an office environment,
>>> work in an office.
>>> ___
>>> http://www.okiebenz.com
>>> 
>>> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>>> 
>>> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
>>> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>>> 
>> 
>> ___
>> http://www.okiebenz.com
>> 
>> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>> 
>> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
>> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>> 
> -- 
> --FT
> 
> 
> ___
> http://www.okiebenz.com
> 
> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
> 
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
> 


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Re: [MBZ] I can not believe how stupid people are -- now remote work

[Floyd Thursby via Mercedes]

I realized when I was at Lotus that I was working mostly with people who 
were not in my office so it really didn't matter much where I was.  
Instead of fighting traffic at 830 I would drop the kids at school, go 
home and work for a coupla hours, make phone calls, emails, work on 
computer stuff, whatever.  Then I would head into the office for the 
afternoon and if I needed to meet with anyone I could do that.  I got 
more done at home without the distractions, and dealing with colleagues 
in England or Europe was fine from home.  It was a really nice sorta 
hybrid scheme. Working always from home got to be old, even though I got 
more done and it was relaxing and flexible, I missed the social 
interactions, random drop-in discussions, and serendipitous ideas that 
popped up being around other people and seeing them in the cafeteria or 
hallways.  It was just easier in a lot of ways to get a job done being 
around others, at least for some things.


IBM went to a remote work environment back in the late 90s, got rid of a 
lot of office space but still had some for meetings/conf rooms and hot 
desking if you needed to be somewhere with those resources.  Most of the 
people were always traveling somewhere anyway so it did not make a lot 
of difference.  I spent a lot of time in hotels, airports, airplanes, 
and off-site partners and our other offices so it was fine with me 
though I did (until I moved away) have an office at our main building in 
Cambridge with a killer view of Boston and the river.  Plus I really 
liked a lot of the people I worked with so that was nice to be around 
friends.


But yeah, the social interaction is a key factor not just in work but in 
lots of other things, I find that people are getting cranky and 
ill-behaved not having that.


--FT

On 12/4/20 9:26 AM, Dan Penoff via Mercedes wrote:

And in a nutshell that’s what this company found. While the initial approach 
was to let roughly 50% of the employees work remotely, about a third of those 
ended up wanting to return t the office if I recall correctly. Many of them 
were younger people whose social lives involved relationships with their (work) 
peers.

It was pretty interesting, I thought.

-D


On Dec 4, 2020, at 9:17 AM, M. Mitchell Marmel via Mercedes 
 wrote:

A wise company will do an intelligent mix.   Those who do better working
from home, work from home.  Those who do better in an office environment,
work in an office.
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--
--FT


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Re: [MBZ] OT: I love this bike

[Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes]

By the time the auction ends it will be in five figures and out of my range.

On Fri, Dec 4, 2020 at 11:28 AM Randy Bennell via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> Just buy it and get it over with. Consider it an investment.
>
> RB
>
> On 04/12/2020 9:47 AM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes wrote:
> > Somebody lock me away from the computer.
> >
> >
> https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1965-bmw-r60-2-6/?utm_source=dm_medium=email_campaign=2020-12-04
> > ___
> >
>
>
> ___
> http://www.okiebenz.com
>
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>
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>
>
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Re: [MBZ] 1973 Mercedes-Benz,$7,000

[Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes]

Incorrect (and probably cracked) steering wheel is all wrong.  As is the
price...

On Fri, Dec 4, 2020 at 11:27 AM Floyd Thursby via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> looks pretty nice
>
>
> https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/13759591029/?ref=search_code=undefined
>
> --
> --FT
>
>
> ___
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>
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>
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>
>
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Re: [MBZ] OT: $800 MacBook with iPhone CPU?

[Dan Penoff via Mercedes]

I know, it’s just that I find it annoying. That and if you’re a relative newbie 
and don’t know to avoid this during setup, you’re surprised by a machine and 
interface you didn’t expect.

-D

> On Dec 4, 2020, at 10:55 AM, Curt Raymond  wrote:
> 
> 16 and 19 both ask during install.
> 
> Curt
> 
> Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android 
> 
> On Fri, Dec 4, 2020 at 6:42 AM, Dan Penoff via Mercedes
>  wrote:
> The thing I didn’t care for in the later Windows Server products was that the 
> “base” install is a headless design, CLI only.
> 
> -D
> 
> > On Dec 3, 2020, at 8:42 PM, Curt Raymond via Mercedes 
> > mailto:mercedes@okiebenz.com>> wrote:
> > 
> > For Windows 10 I've given up on using menus for anything. I just hit the 
> > windows key and start typing what I want. I've gotta say its not so bad, no 
> > searching through menus, just let Windows find it for me.
> > Actually my favorite OS right now is Windows Server 2016, actually 2019 
> > seems mostly the same from a UI perspective. Very old school look, minimal 
> > GUI, more like WinXP than Win10. Much better than 2012 which was like Win8. 
> > Too bad its very expensive although you could use the free trial for half a 
> > year at a time.
> > 
> > -Curt
> > 
> >On Thursday, December 3, 2020, 3:57:21 PM EST, Mitch Haley via Mercedes 
> > mailto:mercedes@okiebenz.com>> wrote:  
> > 
> > On 2020-12-03 15:18, Scott Ritchey via Mercedes wrote:
> >>  I never saw any benefit to those stupid boxes in Win10.
> >> AND it's not worth my time to learn a new GUI every time some liberal 
> >> arts
> >> clown at Micro$oft has a wild hair.
> > 
> > Now that you mention it, I run everything at work off a Win10 Desktop 
> > homescreen, except I have to hit
> > some key combo like CTRL-I to get a power button. I just got that 
> > computer at the end of January, and haven't seen it since we closed the 
> > office March 23.
> > 
> > ___
> > http://www.okiebenz.com 
> > 
> > To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ 
> > 
> > 
> > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> > http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > ___
> > http://www.okiebenz.com 
> > 
> > To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ 
> > 
> > 
> > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> > http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> 
> ___
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> 
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> 
> 
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
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> 
> 

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Re: [MBZ] OT: I love this bike

[Randy Bennell via Mercedes]

Just buy it and get it over with. Consider it an investment.

RB

On 04/12/2020 9:47 AM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes wrote:

Somebody lock me away from the computer.

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1965-bmw-r60-2-6/?utm_source=dm_medium=email_campaign=2020-12-04
___




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[MBZ] 1973 Mercedes-Benz,$7,000

[Floyd Thursby via Mercedes]

looks pretty nice

https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/13759591029/?ref=search_code=undefined

--
--FT


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Re: [MBZ] I can not believe how stupid people are

[Rick Knoble via Mercedes]

Max says:

>I've been thinking that the current situation of almost all virtual work (for 
>those that can do so) is a losing proposition in the long term.

I would agree, but not for the reasons you state.
If one can work for a company from home for $100k a year, that "work from home" 
position can be done from India, Pakistan, or China for MUCH less. Currently, 
there is a legal issue between FB and the DoJ over H-1b preference over US 
citizen workers. "Work from home" (India), and the legal issue disappears.

Blue collar jobs disappeared overseas in the eighties and nineties. White 
collar jobs are next.

Rick
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[MBZ] The front Mercedes symbol on the front is diamonds

[Floyd Thursby via Mercedes]

I think that would be the one on the front, the front one, not the back one

M-Class ML 500 Sport Utility 4D
$6,000

https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/395249475057572/?ref=search_code=undefined

--
--FT

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Re: [MBZ] OT: I love this bike

[Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes]

I drove a single cylinder R25 during my senior year in college.

On Fri, Dec 4, 2020 at 10:50 AM Jim Cathey  wrote:

>
> https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1965-bmw-r60-2-6/?utm_source=dm_medium=email_campaign=2020-12-04
>
>
> Oooo
>
> -- Jim
>
>
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Re: [MBZ] OT: $800 MacBook with iPhone CPU?

[Curt Raymond via Mercedes]

16 and 19 both ask during install.
Curt

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android 
 
  On Fri, Dec 4, 2020 at 6:42 AM, Dan Penoff via 
Mercedes wrote:   The thing I didn’t care for in the 
later Windows Server products was that the “base” install is a headless design, 
CLI only.

-D

> On Dec 3, 2020, at 8:42 PM, Curt Raymond via Mercedes  
> wrote:
> 
> For Windows 10 I've given up on using menus for anything. I just hit the 
> windows key and start typing what I want. I've gotta say its not so bad, no 
> searching through menus, just let Windows find it for me.
> Actually my favorite OS right now is Windows Server 2016, actually 2019 seems 
> mostly the same from a UI perspective. Very old school look, minimal GUI, 
> more like WinXP than Win10. Much better than 2012 which was like Win8. Too 
> bad its very expensive although you could use the free trial for half a year 
> at a time.
> 
> -Curt
> 
>    On Thursday, December 3, 2020, 3:57:21 PM EST, Mitch Haley via Mercedes 
> wrote:  
> 
> On 2020-12-03 15:18, Scott Ritchey via Mercedes wrote:
>>  I never saw any benefit to those stupid boxes in Win10.
>> AND it's not worth my time to learn a new GUI every time some liberal 
>> arts
>> clown at Micro$oft has a wild hair.
> 
> Now that you mention it, I run everything at work off a Win10 Desktop 
> homescreen, except I have to hit
> some key combo like CTRL-I to get a power button. I just got that 
> computer at the end of January, and haven't seen it since we closed the 
> office March 23.
> 
> ___
> http://www.okiebenz.com
> 
> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
> 
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
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> 
> 
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> 
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> 


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Re: [MBZ] OT: I love this bike

[Jim Cathey via Mercedes]

> https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1965-bmw-r60-2-6/?utm_source=dm_medium=email_campaign=2020-12-04
>  
> 

Oooo

-- Jim

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[MBZ] OT: I love this bike

[Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes]

Somebody lock me away from the computer.

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1965-bmw-r60-2-6/?utm_source=dm_medium=email_campaign=2020-12-04
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Re: [MBZ] I can not believe how stupid people are

[Dan Penoff via Mercedes]

And in a nutshell that’s what this company found. While the initial approach 
was to let roughly 50% of the employees work remotely, about a third of those 
ended up wanting to return t the office if I recall correctly. Many of them 
were younger people whose social lives involved relationships with their (work) 
peers.

It was pretty interesting, I thought.

-D

> On Dec 4, 2020, at 9:17 AM, M. Mitchell Marmel via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> A wise company will do an intelligent mix.   Those who do better working
> from home, work from home.  Those who do better in an office environment,
> work in an office.
> ___
> http://www.okiebenz.com
> 
> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
> 
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
> 


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Re: [MBZ] I can not believe how stupid people are

[M. Mitchell Marmel via Mercedes]

A wise company will do an intelligent mix.   Those who do better working
from home, work from home.  Those who do better in an office environment,
work in an office.
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Re: [MBZ] OT: $800 MacBook with iPhone CPU?

[Mitch Haley via Mercedes]

On 2020-12-04 08:14, Meade Dillon via Mercedes wrote:

But the OS is not Winders.

Operating System = Arch Linux 5.9.9-arch1-1 x86_64 in the first test 
you

linked to.


Check out the OS on this one.
Somehow I don't think that's a Ryzen 7 CPU
https://browser.geekbench.com/v5/cpu/5136824

Was this what you were looking for?
https://browser.geekbench.com/v5/cpu/5139402

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Re: [MBZ] I can not believe how stupid people are

[Dan Penoff via Mercedes]

Along those lines, there’s a “Hidden Brain” episode that addresses a study that 
a company in China did in the last year on remote workers. It’s pretty 
interesting, especially the social aspects of what they discovered.

You can fast-forward in to about 11:00 or 12:00 when the segment on this starts:

https://hiddenbrain.org/podcast/when-you-start-to-miss-tony-from-accounting/ 


-D

> On Dec 4, 2020, at 8:09 AM, Meade Dillon via Mercedes  
> wrote:
> 
> I've been thinking that the current situation of almost all virtual work
> (for those that can do so) is a losing proposition in the long term.  I'm
> not sure when the impact will be felt, but eventually the work-place
> relationships will shrivel up into superficial and shallow relationships,
> and the trust and social cohesion needed to keep an organization vital and
> energized and innovating will slip.  Companies / workplaces that maintain
> in-person environments will gain the advantage.  Perhaps some companies
> will develop business models that allow them to remain competitive, but I
> fear that those models will be brutal for the 'workers' and heavily benefit
> the company and its leadership.  Man is a social being, and there will be a
> price to pay for reducing workplace social contact.
> -
> Max
> Charleston SC
> 
> 
> On Fri, Dec 4, 2020 at 1:48 AM Scott Ritchey via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
> 
>> If we still have the Internet and virtual processes used during COVID, do
>> we
>> really need markets and exchanges in big cities?  Why can't all that be
>> virtual from wherever?  With online banking, investing, etc. I think we are
>> close to that now.   There is, however, a serious drawback in reduced
>> social
>> contact:  https://biggeekdad.com/2016/12/the-millennial-question/
>> 
>> The traditional retirement investment was to have kids who can take care of
>> you in old age.  If we, as a nation, continue to have too few children it
>> won't matter how much gold or dollars the old geezers have; there will be
>> no
>> care-givers to hire, at least not American ones.
>> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From:  Allan Streib via Mercedes
>> 
>> Subject: Re: [MBZ] I can not believe how stupid people are
>> 
>> I get the sentiment but we need both unless we revert to pure subsistence
>> living. Farmers absolutely need commodities markets in Chicago and New
>> York,
>> for example. Anyone with any substantial assets needs insurance. Anyone who
>> wants income to retire on needs investments.
>> 
>> ...
>> 
>> 
>> ___
>> http://www.okiebenz.com
>> 
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>> 
>> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
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>> 
>> 
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Re: [MBZ] OT: $800 MacBook with iPhone CPU?

[Meade Dillon via Mercedes]

But the OS is not Winders.

Operating System = Arch Linux 5.9.9-arch1-1 x86_64 in the first test you
linked to.
-
Max
Charleston SC


On Fri, Dec 4, 2020 at 7:25 AM Mitch Haley via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> In theory, that's close to a low wattage Ryzen 7 in a laptop.
> https://browser.geekbench.com/v5/cpu/5031421
>
> Or an i7:
> https://browser.geekbench.com/v5/cpu/5137449
>
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>
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>
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>
>
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Re: [MBZ] I can not believe how stupid people are

[Meade Dillon via Mercedes]

I've been thinking that the current situation of almost all virtual work
(for those that can do so) is a losing proposition in the long term.  I'm
not sure when the impact will be felt, but eventually the work-place
relationships will shrivel up into superficial and shallow relationships,
and the trust and social cohesion needed to keep an organization vital and
energized and innovating will slip.  Companies / workplaces that maintain
in-person environments will gain the advantage.  Perhaps some companies
will develop business models that allow them to remain competitive, but I
fear that those models will be brutal for the 'workers' and heavily benefit
the company and its leadership.  Man is a social being, and there will be a
price to pay for reducing workplace social contact.
-
Max
Charleston SC


On Fri, Dec 4, 2020 at 1:48 AM Scott Ritchey via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> If we still have the Internet and virtual processes used during COVID, do
> we
> really need markets and exchanges in big cities?  Why can't all that be
> virtual from wherever?  With online banking, investing, etc. I think we are
> close to that now.   There is, however, a serious drawback in reduced
> social
> contact:  https://biggeekdad.com/2016/12/the-millennial-question/
>
> The traditional retirement investment was to have kids who can take care of
> you in old age.  If we, as a nation, continue to have too few children it
> won't matter how much gold or dollars the old geezers have; there will be
> no
> care-givers to hire, at least not American ones.
>
> -Original Message-
> From:  Allan Streib via Mercedes
>
> Subject: Re: [MBZ] I can not believe how stupid people are
>
> I get the sentiment but we need both unless we revert to pure subsistence
> living. Farmers absolutely need commodities markets in Chicago and New
> York,
> for example. Anyone with any substantial assets needs insurance. Anyone who
> wants income to retire on needs investments.
>
> ...
>
>
> ___
> http://www.okiebenz.com
>
> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>
>
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Re: [MBZ] OT: $800 MacBook with iPhone CPU?

[Mitch Haley via Mercedes]

On 2020-12-04 06:44, Dan Penoff via Mercedes wrote:

https://www.cultofmac.com/729236/m1-mac-mini-runs-windows-10-enormously-faster-than-microsoft-surface-pro-x/


In theory, that's close to a low wattage Ryzen 7 in a laptop.
https://browser.geekbench.com/v5/cpu/5031421

Or an i7:
https://browser.geekbench.com/v5/cpu/5137449

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Re: [MBZ] OT: $800 MacBook with iPhone CPU?

[Dan Penoff via Mercedes]

https://www.cultofmac.com/729236/m1-mac-mini-runs-windows-10-enormously-faster-than-microsoft-surface-pro-x/?utm_campaign=Cult%20of%20Mac%20Today_medium=email_source=Revue%20newsletter
 


-D


> On Dec 4, 2020, at 6:42 AM, Dan Penoff via Mercedes  
> wrote:
> 
> The thing I didn’t care for in the later Windows Server products was that the 
> “base” install is a headless design, CLI only.
> 
> -D
> 
>> On Dec 3, 2020, at 8:42 PM, Curt Raymond via Mercedes 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> For Windows 10 I've given up on using menus for anything. I just hit the 
>> windows key and start typing what I want. I've gotta say its not so bad, no 
>> searching through menus, just let Windows find it for me.
>> Actually my favorite OS right now is Windows Server 2016, actually 2019 
>> seems mostly the same from a UI perspective. Very old school look, minimal 
>> GUI, more like WinXP than Win10. Much better than 2012 which was like Win8. 
>> Too bad its very expensive although you could use the free trial for half a 
>> year at a time.
>> 
>> -Curt
>> 
>>   On Thursday, December 3, 2020, 3:57:21 PM EST, Mitch Haley via Mercedes 
>>  wrote:  
>> 
>> On 2020-12-03 15:18, Scott Ritchey via Mercedes wrote:
>>>  I never saw any benefit to those stupid boxes in Win10.
>>> AND it's not worth my time to learn a new GUI every time some liberal 
>>> arts
>>> clown at Micro$oft has a wild hair.
>> 
>> Now that you mention it, I run everything at work off a Win10 Desktop 
>> homescreen, except I have to hit
>> some key combo like CTRL-I to get a power button. I just got that 
>> computer at the end of January, and haven't seen it since we closed the 
>> office March 23.
>> 
>> ___
>> http://www.okiebenz.com
>> 
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>> 
>> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
>> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>> 
>> 
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>> 
>> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
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>> 
> 
> 
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Re: [MBZ] OT: $800 MacBook with iPhone CPU?

[Dan Penoff via Mercedes]

The thing I didn’t care for in the later Windows Server products was that the 
“base” install is a headless design, CLI only.

-D

> On Dec 3, 2020, at 8:42 PM, Curt Raymond via Mercedes  
> wrote:
> 
> For Windows 10 I've given up on using menus for anything. I just hit the 
> windows key and start typing what I want. I've gotta say its not so bad, no 
> searching through menus, just let Windows find it for me.
> Actually my favorite OS right now is Windows Server 2016, actually 2019 seems 
> mostly the same from a UI perspective. Very old school look, minimal GUI, 
> more like WinXP than Win10. Much better than 2012 which was like Win8. Too 
> bad its very expensive although you could use the free trial for half a year 
> at a time.
> 
> -Curt
> 
>On Thursday, December 3, 2020, 3:57:21 PM EST, Mitch Haley via Mercedes 
>  wrote:  
> 
> On 2020-12-03 15:18, Scott Ritchey via Mercedes wrote:
>>   I never saw any benefit to those stupid boxes in Win10.
>> AND it's not worth my time to learn a new GUI every time some liberal 
>> arts
>> clown at Micro$oft has a wild hair.
> 
> Now that you mention it, I run everything at work off a Win10 Desktop 
> homescreen, except I have to hit
> some key combo like CTRL-I to get a power button. I just got that 
> computer at the end of January, and haven't seen it since we closed the 
> office March 23.
> 
> ___
> http://www.okiebenz.com
> 
> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
> 
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
> 
> 
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> 
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
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> 


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