Re: Cisco moves even more to china.
This race exists, because American employees keeps many unnecessary expenses, making local workforce very expensive. In reality, even if people in India or Russia will have the same life level as in USA, they will cost 2 - 3 times less. There are many core reasons, driving work costs up and workforce offshore. (1) Number 1 - LIABILITY and LAWERS. It became anecdote for the all world around. Some girl in NY failed near the train - and company pay her $24M dollars for _future lost_. My friends closed boat rental because of liability costs are too high. Palo Alto Hospital pay to the mother many millions because _she believe they did not do their best..._. Who pay it all - Hospitals, transport companies, rentals? Not, it is paid by customers, consumers (I do not want to revert liability to the doctor, but I am forced to pay for others who can claim liability). lawyers are doing nothing, they just pull money from others and drive costs high - and it drives workforce offshore. (2) Number 2 - landlords and real estate costs. Who pay for the homes ($500,000 here and $1,000,000 in Santa Barbara) - homeowners? Not, employers - consumers. I can live in Moscow paying $300 / month for the apartment, I can not live here paying less than $1,000 for apartment. Who pay it? Employers, at the end. This is main driving engine. No one want to outsource (with exceptions, of course - if you are from country A, you will likely outsource engineering to country A) - it is much more convenient to have a local workforce vs. remote. But if call center agent pays to the lawyers, pays for liabilities, pays $2K/month for the rent here - and the same agent in India pay $200 , no liabilities (because smart people are responsible for themselves, because _coffee is hot, and train is dangerous_), no huge lawyers costs, no huge payments to licensed doctors (while many unlicensed can not get a job, and many do not take this career because of huge liabilities) - employer have not other chance than outsourcing. Smart employers keeps core team local and outsource utilities, technical jobs, mass programming etc; other outsource everything and then die, but no one have a chance to survive, paying this liabilities, rentals and so on, when competitors are not doing it. On Fri, 24 Sep 2004, Robin Lynn Frank wrote: This race exists because of imbalances in prosperity in world. This race exists because governments beholden to corporate interests, permit it to exist. No, with free trade, it exists because of imbalance. Unless of course you are completely against free trade, and hence blame the government for not tariffing the problem out of existence - which of course means you end-up paying more for your clothes, food, oil, computers, etc. Which means growth in your economy slows down, your stocks dont do as well, etc... A US company that sacrifices the welfare of US workers for the sake of its bottom line, or to curry favor with a foreign government, is not one I care to do business with. See Suresh's post, what do you do for clothes? BTW, I work for an American technology company. I'm probably doing a job that would otherwise be done by an American (or, at least, a US resident, good few of my colleagues in the US are not of american origin), and I'm probably doing it for a lower salary than an american would - and that's despite fact that cost of living in my country is at least comparable to that in the USA (if possibly even slightly higher). But think to yourself, what happens to the profits made by american multinational, US parented, companies? regards, -- Paul Jakma [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Key ID: 64A2FF6A Fortune: Left to themselves, things tend to go from bad to worse.
Re: Cisco moves even more to china.
Nicole wrote: China is a communist and closed loop society. Thats teh real problem. The company that claims it runs the internet (or some such phrase) is now saying we prefer communist China than America and American Jobs. Who are you to say communism's bad if you've never even tried it? Btw the best definition I ever heard of trickle down economy was from Bill Maher who said its like a eufamism for being peed on from above. of Gosh we have so much money to hold.. some may fall through as we try to hang onto it all.. so you can have that. Much like scraps for the pet dog. That's euphemism. And to you believe everything the liberal news media says? As I recall, this whole thread (which, I might add, is not in the least bit operational, nor relevent) was started in response to a sound bite you heard on TV, whcih you were unable to even provide a proper reference for. They don't really buy much from us. What they Have to buy they seem to be counterfitting or getting cheaply or just plain ol stealing as far as technology goes. Have should be lower-case. Yes, but it will be done by the chineese. You won't see more than a handfull Chinese and handful, you mean? of people their. Probobly mostly the execs smiling about their payoff and there is the word you're looking for, not their not busy. But when a company can find a way to cut costs. They will! Becouse we as Americans are lazy and complacent and most don't even know what's going on in the world. Sounds like Cisco's doing something smart. Maybe it's time to quit crying and purchase some shares in CSCO.
Re: Cisco moves even more to china.
Ricardo, If I were you, I'd atleast pipe my shit through aspell a couple hundred times, before I even consider hitting 'y'. That's euphemism. And to you believe everything the liberal news media says? As I recall, this whole thread (which, I might add, is You mean And do you..., right? not in the least bit operational, nor relevent) was started in relevant response to a sound bite you heard on TV, whcih you were unable to which ~Hani Mustafa P.S As a random exercise, compose a sentence from the following scrambled words: house, stones, glass, throw
RE: Cisco moves even more to china.
Isn't this just business, there is a huge untapped VOIP and mobile market in China and Cisco is a vendor that sells these products. As a shareholder I would be disappointed if they didn't want a share of this. Paul Gilbert Router Management Solutions, Inc. www.routermanagement.com work: 5167666068 mobile: 5164564983 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, September 24, 2004 7:10 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Cisco moves even more to china. Its time for all American Tech workers to stand up and let our voices be heard. Yes, definitely. Emigrate to the countries where the jobs are going to. Learn to speak a new language if necessary, after all you are all smart people, right? Learning a new human language only takes a couple of years to get fluent enough to handle a job in the tech field. Salaries in these countries may be low from a US perspective but they are usually high within the local economy of the foreign country. There's always more than one way to skin a cat... --Michael Dillon P.S. This list has people on it from around the world including all the countries to which US jobs are fleeing.
Re: Cisco moves even more to china.
Sorry - I tried it; I can said that it is BAD. - Original Message - From: Ricardo Rick Gonzalez [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Nicole [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Peter Galbavy [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, September 25, 2004 7:41 AM Subject: Re: Cisco moves even more to china. Nicole wrote: China is a communist and closed loop society. Thats teh real problem. The company that claims it runs the internet (or some such phrase) is now saying we prefer communist China than America and American Jobs. Who are you to say communism's bad if you've never even tried it? Btw the best definition I ever heard of trickle down economy was from Bill Maher who said its like a eufamism for being peed on from above. of Gosh we have so much money to hold.. some may fall through as we try to hang onto it all.. so you can have that. Much like scraps for the pet dog. That's euphemism. And to you believe everything the liberal news media says? As I recall, this whole thread (which, I might add, is not in the least bit operational, nor relevent) was started in response to a sound bite you heard on TV, whcih you were unable to even provide a proper reference for. They don't really buy much from us. What they Have to buy they seem to be counterfitting or getting cheaply or just plain ol stealing as far as technology goes. Have should be lower-case. Yes, but it will be done by the chineese. You won't see more than a handfull Chinese and handful, you mean? of people their. Probobly mostly the execs smiling about their payoff and there is the word you're looking for, not their not busy. But when a company can find a way to cut costs. They will! Becouse we as Americans are lazy and complacent and most don't even know what's going on in the world. Sounds like Cisco's doing something smart. Maybe it's time to quit crying and purchase some shares in CSCO.
Re: Cisco moves even more to china.
The only event that is driving this, is Cisco wants to dominate the Chinese market and the only way to sell in China is to manufacture product there, using their people to manufacture, that is how the game is played there and for the chinese it makes sense, considering the government there has has around 1.3 billion people to care for. The lack of understanding here is that Americans need to be cared for to, with economy that providers us with a sense of financial security. The problem centers around jobs now being promoted for poltical purposes as jobs, when you focus on these jobs, you will discover they are not living wage jobs and certainly not jobs that provide for intelligent people staffing them. The other issue that fits into this problem, is the Bush administration gets $1.12 for every dollar earned offshore from any product, so it basically doesn't care, since it keeps the US government solvent, while the rest of us get flushed down the tubes. Making matter's worse is the fact, that executives that support the Bush administration with outsourcing offshore, are financial rewards and tax incentrives that make it attractive to do so. If you don't like the politics of what is happening to you change it in November and work to turn our country around and preserve our friendships globally in the process. My 2 cents -henry
Re: Cisco moves even more to china.
On Sat, 25 Sep 2004, Robin Lynn Frank wrote: Hey, Mr. Spelling Bee, it is *their*, not there. So, you can't make an argument that is valid and focus on the spelling? This thread has gotten a bit long in the tooth, so I'm waiting for Godwin's law to take effect. Had you written above with s/\(Hey, Mr. Spelling\) Bee/\1 Nazi/ it would have done, missed opportunity, but not anymore ;) regards, -- Paul Jakma [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Key ID: 64A2FF6A Fortune: The cost of living is going up, and the chance of living is going down.
RE: Cisco moves even more to china.
On Sat, 25 Sep 2004 10:41:16 -0400 Ricardo \Rick\ Gonzalez [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: of people their. Probobly mostly the execs smiling about their payoff and there is the word you're looking for, not their Hey, Mr. Spelling Bee, it is *their*, not there. So, you can't make an argument that is valid and focus on the spelling? This thread has gotten a bit long in the tooth, so I'm waiting for Godwin's law to take effect. Yes, quite a bit OT for this list... Other lists and forums around... Thanks, mh -- Michael Hallgren, AS6453, mh2198-ripe -- Robin Lynn Frank Director of Operations Paradigm-Omega, LLC http://www.paradigm-omega.com == Sed quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Re: Cisco moves even more to china.
Alexei Roudnev wrote: This race exists, because American employees keeps many unnecessary expenses, making local workforce very expensive. In reality, even if people in India or Russia will have the same life level as in USA, they will cost 2 - 3 times less. There are many core reasons, driving work costs up and workforce offshore. (1) Number 1 - LIABILITY and LAWERS. It became anecdote for the all world around. Some girl in NY failed near the train - and company pay her $24M dollars for _future lost_. That's right, the train company should pay handsomely for not installing a $500.00 guardrail to prevent the accident in the first place and as a result a child is killed. Yes trains are dangerous, that's why the railroad should do everything in its power to protect the public where it will be close to moving trains. Protecting the public is much less expensive than the lawsuit. And you think this way until its your child that trips and falls an dinstead being caught by a fence, falls onto the track in front of an oncoming train. My friends closed boat rental because of liability costs are too high. Palo Alto Hospital pay to the mother many millions because _she believe they did not do their best..._. Who pay it all - Hospitals, transport companies, rentals? Not, it is paid by customers, consumers (I do not want to revert liability to the doctor, but I am forced to pay for others who can claim liability). lawyers are doing nothing, they just pull money from others and drive costs high - and it drives workforce offshore. Frivolous lawsuits drive up those costs. The lack of a system for weeding out those lawsuits is the problem. If a manufacturer is negligent and places the fuel tank in my vehicle in such a way that a $10.00 will protect it so that when my vehicle is rear ended by someone else (who is also negligent, BTW) and that fuel tank explodes setting my entire vehicle instantly ablaze and they knew about the problema and did nothing about it and I'm burned over 50% of my body and will probably cost me millions in reconstructive surgery and therapies both physical and mental, probably my job, not to mention the social costs of having large parts of my body covered with scars, that manufacturer should pay through the nose for every body that happens to. If manufacturers weren't so focused on the bottom line and worried more about the safety and quality of their products then this point would be moot. The actuaried make decisions like 1,000,000.00 vehicles X $10.00 = $10,000,000.00 the number of accidents of this type is low and the damage awards will amount to less than the $10 million, screw the shield we'll take the lawsuit. This kind of thing happens all the time. If a doctor is negligent and reduces my child or my wife to persistent vegitative state, or say, amputates the wrong limb and is forced to amputate both, or kills them, then that doctor should pay handsomely. What's the price of my (your) wife's or my (your) child's life? As far as I'm concerned, its pretty damn high. How can you cap that damage award? Please, the answer isn't that simple. Massachusetts has a pretty good system for weeding out frivolous lawsuits and that has kept medical malpractice insurance costs significantly lower than other parts of the country. Oh, and BTW, the neglegent doctor shouldn't be allowed to pass those costs on to other patients. That damage award is supposed to hurt and come out of that doctor's hide. He'll think twice before he makes the same mistake. Its supposed to weed out bad doctors. Health Insurance in the United States is the problem, not the solution. National healthcare is the solution. Billions of dollars are syphoned out of healthcare every year in the form of profits. Profiting from the misery of others is immoral. You can't defend it. Its just plain wrong. Other countries, even poor ones, have national healthcare and healtcare costs in those countries are substantially lower. Health Insurers only want to insure the healthy. (2) Number 2 - landlords and real estate costs. Who pay for the homes ($500,000 here and $1,000,000 in Santa Barbara) - homeowners? Not, employers - consumers. I can live in Moscow paying $300 / month for the apartment, I can not live here paying less than $1,000 for apartment. Who pay it? Employers, at the end. The market will get what it can. That's why the same home that cost's $1,000,000.00 in Santa Barbara costs $250,000.00 in Portland, Maine. For those of you who don't know, that's way up in northern Maine not near much of anything but farmland. Companies don't need to locate their companies in the most expensive places in the country. That's a choice. If I look in the right town, I can find apartments in the $300.00 range or even the $500.00 range, unlike, say, LaJolla, CA where they go for about 10 times that. This is main driving engine. No one want to outsource (with
Re: Cisco moves even more to china.
At 02:23 PM 9/25/2004, you wrote: engagement is fair trade. Lessaiz Faire economics was tried about 100 years ago. It resulted in the Great Depression and children dying of tuberculosis in the factories. Why does anyone think it'll work today? Curtis, I tried to stay out of this since it isn't really on topic at all, but your statement above is so completely wrong that I can't let it pass without correcting it. Actually, the Smoot-Hawley Tariff which was intended to be fair trade in your parlance CAUSED the Great Depression, NOT free trade. Some economists particularly those of the Keynesian school wrongly (imho) see the S-H Tariff as a result of the Great Depression rather than a cause. However, all parties agree that it did nothing but prolong the depression. Properly analyzing the facts and knowing the time which is involved in passing legislation and Hoover's promises to enact the tariff if he was elected caused the capital markets to dry up when it became evident that he would win and that the tariff would be enacted. The anticipation of the act was enough to scare away the smart money from the market which caused the stock market crash of '29. The depression lasted as a result of the tariff essentially killing trade between the US and the rest of the world. Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it! Here are a few references for you: http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ho/time/id/17606.htm http://www.buyandhold.com/bh/en/education/history/2002/smoot_hawley.html http://www.encyclopedia.com/html/H/HawleyS1m.asp -Robert btw- The good news is that Bush or Kerry will loose. The bad news is that the other one of them will win. :( Tellurian Networks - The Ultimate Internet Connection http://www.tellurian.com | 888-TELLURIAN | 973-300-9211 Good will, like a good name, is got by many actions, and lost by one. - Francis Jeffrey
Re: Cisco moves even more to china.
Hmm. It was not developing countries, who claimed _free trade_; it was _developed counrties_. When free trade was coming, it caused a lot of local problems - local car vendors was unhappy because of competition, local TV vendors closed their factories, etc. But it appeared to be two side weapon - and , developing countried get their reward in shape of outsourcing after adapting to this free trade. It is just payment for initial loses and disadvantages. So, it is smart - ok, wanna free trade, wanna to sell Boeings to Russia and India - be ready to move workforce there, too. Do not want free trade - be ready that Cisco, Boeing, Intel will not sell anything to this countries (and use local workforce, and pay $300 for DVD player _made in USA_ instead of paying $50 for the same one _made in China_). Some fields still have not free trade (Music Industry, for example, still have uncompetitive prices $20 for CD disk, but it is compensated by pirates so that no one is paying this $20 except americans - people pays $3 for the same thing in India or China), but be sure, it is for limited time only - after 5 years CD / 20 songs will cost $2, no matter what this fat label companies are saying and doing... Do not make unreasonable dreams - it is FREE TRADE vs CLOSED MARKET. You can not have free trade for goods and closed market for workforce. And vice versa. And you can not make long life for uncompetitive society, which makes life easy for individuals but pay huge price as a society (incompetitive workforce). No way. Other side is company structure. If companies have 80% _sales_ and 20% _Engineering_, they can not compete with new China companies with 80% Engineering and 20% sales. Just no way. It will got worst, not because of outsourcing, but because of lost of drive, wasting expenses, huge internal prices. Returning to Cisco . They was (WAS) a great company. They are (ARE) still a good company. But overall tendency is so scared that I will not bet on them too much - they lost internal drive, lost internal quality. They have a chance to became a bad company during next 5 years. China is just a simple example of growing competition. (Btw, I like an idea - I teached Cisco networking in Russia, and it was very useful for the students. ) - Original Message - From: Robert Boyle [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Curtis Maurand [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, September 25, 2004 1:27 PM Subject: Re: Cisco moves even more to china. At 02:23 PM 9/25/2004, you wrote: engagement is fair trade. Lessaiz Faire economics was tried about 100 years ago. It resulted in the Great Depression and children dying of tuberculosis in the factories. Why does anyone think it'll work today? Curtis, I tried to stay out of this since it isn't really on topic at all, but your statement above is so completely wrong that I can't let it pass without correcting it. Actually, the Smoot-Hawley Tariff which was intended to be fair trade in your parlance CAUSED the Great Depression, NOT free trade. Some economists particularly those of the Keynesian school wrongly (imho) see the S-H Tariff as a result of the Great Depression rather than a cause. However, all parties agree that it did nothing but prolong the depression. Properly analyzing the facts and knowing the time which is involved in passing legislation and Hoover's promises to enact the tariff if he was elected caused the capital markets to dry up when it became evident that he would win and that the tariff would be enacted. The anticipation of the act was enough to scare away the smart money from the market which caused the stock market crash of '29. The depression lasted as a result of the tariff essentially killing trade between the US and the rest of the world. Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it! Here are a few references for you: http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ho/time/id/17606.htm http://www.buyandhold.com/bh/en/education/history/2002/smoot_hawley.html http://www.encyclopedia.com/html/H/HawleyS1m.asp -Robert btw- The good news is that Bush or Kerry will loose. The bad news is that the other one of them will win. :( Tellurian Networks - The Ultimate Internet Connection http://www.tellurian.com | 888-TELLURIAN | 973-300-9211 Good will, like a good name, is got by many actions, and lost by one. - Francis Jeffrey
Re: Cisco moves even more to china.
Robert Boyle wrote: [snip] I answered this off list with references. If anyone is interested, contact me off list. Curtis
RE: Cisco moves even more to china.
You can't logically, in the same e-mail talk about Cisco wanting to dominate a new/growing market (e.g. would account for new jobs, new stuff, new monies previously unseen) and then talk about Bush (or whomever) getting money from this and not caring therefore screwing US workers. If it's a new market, nobody is getting screwed. There are certainly no rules saying that every sale that Cisco (or any other US-based company) makes must flow through American hands. That would be absurd. If it were growing or supplementing existing business in the US where they deliberately go in and lay off US workers in order to bring on workers in other countries, then THAT is the part where you may be upset about this. Outsourcing may indeed be a problem in some aspects and some industries, but (IMHO) THIS particular announcement about playing by the necessary political rules and seeking to establish a firm hold in a new/growing market doesn't even come close to the issues that you seem to be complaining about. So please, if you're going to try to bring politics into the thread and blame it on whoever (which the particular administration really has nothing to impact this one way or the other) then stick with some semblance of logic that follows all the way through. Personally, I don't like the concept of certain types of outsourcing where jobs are indeed lost to save a buck or two. But I think that too many people go off the logical deep-end on what items fall into this category and soon we are looking at McCarty's tactics for deciding the conforming or non-conforming which is not a good idea. Someone in a previous e-mail mentioned someone's law about annihilating this thread. While I don't know whose law that was I hope whatever it is takes effect soon because the sky really is not falling. Scott -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Henry Linneweh Sent: Saturday, September 25, 2004 1:42 PM To: Alexei Roudnev; Paul Jakma; Robin Lynn Frank Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Cisco moves even more to china. The only event that is driving this, is Cisco wants to dominate the Chinese market and the only way to sell in China is to manufacture product there, using their people to manufacture, that is how the game is played there and for the chinese it makes sense, considering the government there has has around 1.3 billion people to care for. The lack of understanding here is that Americans need to be cared for to, with economy that providers us with a sense of financial security. The problem centers around jobs now being promoted for poltical purposes as jobs, when you focus on these jobs, you will discover they are not living wage jobs and certainly not jobs that provide for intelligent people staffing them. The other issue that fits into this problem, is the Bush administration gets $1.12 for every dollar earned offshore from any product, so it basically doesn't care, since it keeps the US government solvent, while the rest of us get flushed down the tubes. Making matter's worse is the fact, that executives that support the Bush administration with outsourcing offshore, are financial rewards and tax incentrives that make it attractive to do so. If you don't like the politics of what is happening to you change it in November and work to turn our country around and preserve our friendships globally in the process. My 2 cents -henry
Godwin's Law (Was: RE: Cisco moves even more to china.)
Godwin's Law: As a Usenet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one. See also: http://www.faqs.org/faqs/usenet/legends/godwin/ - ferg -- Scott Morris [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Someone in a previous e-mail mentioned someone's law about annihilating this thread. While I don't know whose law that was I hope whatever it is takes effect soon because the sky really is not falling. Scott -- Fergie, a.k.a. Paul Ferguson Engineering Architecture for the Internet [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Cisco moves even more to china.
I tried configuring my router this way but all I got were syntax errors... Can we PLEASE move on? Thanks, Tony On Sep 25, 2004, at 2:10 PM, Alexei Roudnev wrote: Hmm. It was not developing countries, who claimed _free trade_; it was _developed counrties_. When free trade was coming, it caused a lot of local problems - local car vendors was unhappy because of competition, local TV vendors closed their factories, etc. But it appeared to be two side weapon - and , developing countried get their reward in shape of outsourcing after adapting to this free trade. It is just payment for initial loses and disadvantages. So, it is smart - ok, wanna free trade, wanna to sell Boeings to Russia and India - be ready to move workforce there, too. Do not want free trade - be ready that Cisco, Boeing, Intel will not sell anything to this countries (and use local workforce, and pay $300 for DVD player _made in USA_ instead of paying $50 for the same one _made in China_). Some fields still have not free trade (Music Industry, for example, still have uncompetitive prices $20 for CD disk, but it is compensated by pirates so that no one is paying this $20 except americans - people pays $3 for the same thing in India or China), but be sure, it is for limited time only - after 5 years CD / 20 songs will cost $2, no matter what this fat label companies are saying and doing... Do not make unreasonable dreams - it is FREE TRADE vs CLOSED MARKET. You can not have free trade for goods and closed market for workforce. And vice versa. And you can not make long life for uncompetitive society, which makes life easy for individuals but pay huge price as a society (incompetitive workforce). No way. Other side is company structure. If companies have 80% _sales_ and 20% _Engineering_, they can not compete with new China companies with 80% Engineering and 20% sales. Just no way. It will got worst, not because of outsourcing, but because of lost of drive, wasting expenses, huge internal prices. Returning to Cisco . They was (WAS) a great company. They are (ARE) still a good company. But overall tendency is so scared that I will not bet on them too much - they lost internal drive, lost internal quality. They have a chance to became a bad company during next 5 years. China is just a simple example of growing competition. (Btw, I like an idea - I teached Cisco networking in Russia, and it was very useful for the students. ) - Original Message - From: Robert Boyle [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Curtis Maurand [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, September 25, 2004 1:27 PM Subject: Re: Cisco moves even more to china. At 02:23 PM 9/25/2004, you wrote: engagement is fair trade. Lessaiz Faire economics was tried about 100 years ago. It resulted in the Great Depression and children dying of tuberculosis in the factories. Why does anyone think it'll work today? Curtis, I tried to stay out of this since it isn't really on topic at all, but your statement above is so completely wrong that I can't let it pass without correcting it. Actually, the Smoot-Hawley Tariff which was intended to be fair trade in your parlance CAUSED the Great Depression, NOT free trade. Some economists particularly those of the Keynesian school wrongly (imho) see the S-H Tariff as a result of the Great Depression rather than a cause. However, all parties agree that it did nothing but prolong the depression. Properly analyzing the facts and knowing the time which is involved in passing legislation and Hoover's promises to enact the tariff if he was elected caused the capital markets to dry up when it became evident that he would win and that the tariff would be enacted. The anticipation of the act was enough to scare away the smart money from the market which caused the stock market crash of '29. The depression lasted as a result of the tariff essentially killing trade between the US and the rest of the world. Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it! Here are a few references for you: http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ho/time/id/17606.htm http://www.buyandhold.com/bh/en/education/history/2002/ smoot_hawley.html http://www.encyclopedia.com/html/H/HawleyS1m.asp -Robert btw- The good news is that Bush or Kerry will loose. The bad news is that the other one of them will win. :( Tellurian Networks - The Ultimate Internet Connection http://www.tellurian.com | 888-TELLURIAN | 973-300-9211 Good will, like a good name, is got by many actions, and lost by one. - Francis Jeffrey
Re: Cisco moves even more to china.
Nicole wrote: So.. I guess we will be cranking out those H1b's...Plan to kiss your raises and or jobs bye bye to some specialized cheap imported Cisco trained networking person from China. There is an implicit assumption here that the objective of 100% of these trainees will be to move as economic migrants to the West. Wrong folks. Very very wrong. Notice how China as a *consumer* is growing faster than anyone else around ? While there may well be some (what's the right word ?) retro-sourcing of cheap labour into the US (and the EU), I suspect that once any initial levelling of the field happens, there will be just as much, if not more, movement the other way. There is a lot of jingoistic rhetoric here, and not enough rational thought about the objective - building big networks in the biggest economy of the near future. PS I hate *all* certification with a passion, regardless of level and including things like my BSc which was just a great excuse to drink lots for a few years. The person doing the selection of candidates should have enough expertise themselves to make a rational judgement based on a face to face interview. Peter
RE: Cisco moves even more to china.
On Fri, 2004-09-24 at 03:53, Joseph wrote: Its time for all American Tech workers to stand up and let our voices be heard. Perhaps it's time instead to make sure you're good at what you do and try to be on the forefront of tech, rather than whining about how all those bad people from abroad are stealing your job. It's largely our own fault labour pricing in large outsourcing countries like India are so low, and now it's coming back to bite some of us. We as world citizens need to come to grips with the fact that we must compete with workers internationally but we should be doing so on FAIR playing field. Strangely people only start calling for a level, fair playing field when they feel something's threatening their own little piece of the cake. If most companies and governments we're happy to work for wouldn't have been undermining other people's economies for ages, we wouldn't have this problem and we would have a more or less fair playing field. But now practices that we still are making money of is making our companies stronger, but our workforce weaker, so in the long term probably our overall economy will be weaker. Anyone else see the irony here..? Don't Support Outsourcing, Don't buy from companies that outsource US jobs. Hmm...let me see now, no Juniper, no Cisco, no Oracle, no Microsoft, basically not a single vendor left...ah yes, we should just stop working completely and dismantle the Internet, that might just do the trick. Cheers, Erik -- --- Erik Haagsman Network Architect We Dare BV tel: +31(0)10 7507008 fax:+31(0)10 7507005 http://www.we-dare.nl
Re: Cisco moves even more to china.
- Original Message - From: Erik Haagsman [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Joseph [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, September 24, 2004 5:59 AM Subject: RE: Cisco moves even more to china. On Fri, 2004-09-24 at 03:53, Joseph wrote: Its time for all American Tech workers to stand up and let our voices be heard. Perhaps it's time instead to make sure you're good at what you do and try to be on the forefront of tech, rather than whining about how all those bad people from abroad are stealing your job. It's largely our own fault labour pricing in large outsourcing countries like India are so low, and now it's coming back to bite some of us. well said. for some reason (could be my wacky soviet upbringing), i've always felt that only people who have no confidence in their own abilities can feel threatened by those of others. somehow, when you're busy doing new and interesting stuff, you just don't have the time or the inclination to get up on that soapbox.. paul
RE: Cisco moves even more to china.
Its time for all American Tech workers to stand up and let our voices be heard. Yes, definitely. Emigrate to the countries where the jobs are going to. Learn to speak a new language if necessary, after all you are all smart people, right? Learning a new human language only takes a couple of years to get fluent enough to handle a job in the tech field. Salaries in these countries may be low from a US perspective but they are usually high within the local economy of the foreign country. There's always more than one way to skin a cat... --Michael Dillon P.S. This list has people on it from around the world including all the countries to which US jobs are fleeing.
RE: Cisco moves even more to china.
Hello Erik, Although I agree with you on many points I think its time people stop complaining and take action. My point was not to idly complain about the outsourcing trend and claim that protectionism is the answer but, to ask if there is a better way to deal with the long term trend for ALL of us. Boycotting is just one way to send a message rather than simply complaining. Your perception of Americans I think is very skewed by the media. You obviously did not read my post and wanted take a cheap shot. Many Americans like myself have always been fighting for equity, fairness and democracy from the beginning in all our activities. Try not to equate a people with what you read and hear in the media and realize they have much more diversity of opinion than is portrayed therein. I argue we BOTH American and international workers (that means you) need to change the system so that we are all treated fairly. I don't think this is an off the wall ideal. But to each his own. Hmmm. I had no idea there were only 2 networking companies, 1 database and 1 OS. =) With the rich competitive nature of the market I will continue to support companies which conform to a baseline of ethical business practice for all workers worldwide. With deepest respect, JErik Haagsman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, 2004-09-24 at 03:53, Joseph wrote: Its time for all American Tech workers to stand up and let our voices be heard.Perhaps it's time instead to make sure you're good at what you do andtry to be on the forefront of tech, rather than whining about how allthose bad people from abroad are stealing your job. It's largely our ownfault labour pricing in large outsourcing countries like India are solow, and now it's coming back to bite some of us. We as world citizens need to come to grips with the fact that we must compete with workers internationally but we should be doing so on FAIR playing field. Strangely people only start calling for a level, fair playing field whenthey feel something's threatening their own little piece of the cake. Ifmost companies and governments we're happy to work for wouldn't havebeen undermining other people's economies for ages, we wouldn't havethis problem and we would have a more or less fair playing field. Butnow practices that we still are making money of is making our companiesstronger, but our workforce weaker, so in the long term probably ouroverall economy will be weaker. Anyone else see the irony here..? Don't Support Outsourcing, Don't buy from companies that outsource US jobs.Hmm...let me see now, no Juniper, no Cisco, no Oracle, no Microsoft,basically not a single vendor left...ah yes, we should just stop workingcompletely and dismantle the Internet, that might just do the trick.Cheers,Erik-- ---Erik HaagsmanNetwork ArchitectWe Dare BVtel: +31(0)10 7507008fax:+31(0)10 7507005http://www.we-dare.nl Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone.
Re: Cisco moves even more to china.
Then you all need to stop purchasing from Dell, IBM, HP, Cisco, et al. They've all outsourced quite a bit to the third world. 90% of the parts for any of this stuff come from Asia. The US has lost more manufacturing jobs in the last 3 years then the previous 22. There are 18% fewer tech jobs in this country than there were 4 years ago. You'll also need to stop dealing with Citicorp and Bank of America and the rest of the big financial companies that have moved IT operations to Bangalor or deal with companies like Keane that do as much as possible offshore. Motorola is moving RD to China (tantamount to giving away military secrets). I can go on. Those last two statements don't make much sense to me. The way to fix things is to remove the incentives to move the jobs overseas in the first place. Fair trade, not free trade. Joseph wrote: [snip] We as world citizens need to come to grips with the fact that we must compete with workers internationally but we should be doing so on FAIR playing field. Pure free market capitalism has no concept fairness and equity and no room for correcting the drastic changes that can sometimes cause great societal costs. Capitalism is not inherently bad but it is an imperfect system in need of much guidance. Historically the only way this system has been improved is by Labor action, political involvement and transparent government. Getting upset about job losses is useless and futile we need to take action! Don't Support Outsourcing Don't buy from companies that outsource US jobs. Be very vocal and call and mail these companies and let them know you will not support them. Let them know you are watching what they are doing and will vote with your Dollars. Check out the site below to look up any company. http://www.workingamerica.org/ Be Politically Active Be politically aware and active! Remain politically active and tell your state local politician and the president that they need to be protective of American jobs and leveling the playing field in world wide labor market. Check out these links http://www.pbs.org/now/politics/outsourcedebate.html http://www.workingamerica.org/ Just my 2 cents. =)
RE: Cisco moves even more to china.
Too Late CDL drivers are already outsourced a couple of years ago we agreed to allow Mexican trucking firms access to the entire CONUS. Before that they were limited to 100 Miles from the border. Become a mechanic or plumber instead... Scott C. McGrath On Thu, 23 Sep 2004, Dan Mahoney, System Admin wrote: On Thu, 23 Sep 2004, Jason Graun wrote: I think the IT field as a whole, programmers, network guys, etc... are going to go the way of the auto workers in the 70's and 80's. I am a CCIE working and on a second one and it saddens me that all my hard work and advanced knowledge could be replaced by a chop-shop guy because from a business standpoint quarter to quarter the chop-shop guy is cheaper on the books. Never mind the fact that I solve problems on the network in under 30mins and save the company from downtime but I am too expensive. I used to love technology and all it had to offer but now I feel cheated, I feel like we all have been burned by the way the business guys look at the technology, as a commodity. Thankfully I am still young (mid 20's) I can make a career switch but I'll still love the technology. Anyway I am going to start the paper work to be an H1b to China and brush up on my Mandarin. I've felt this way about things at times. It's why I'm getting my CDL. I highly doubt they can find a way to outsource *that* to some third-world country. -Dan Jason -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Erik Haagsman Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2004 7:55 PM To: Dan Mahoney, System Admin Cc: Nicole; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Cisco moves even more to china. On Fri, 2004-09-24 at 02:29, Dan Mahoney, System Admin wrote: I've always personally taken anyone who said but I'm an MCSE with a grain of salt. I've had equal respect for the A-plus and Net-Plus certifications, which are basically bought. I take most certifications with a grain of salt, including degrees, unless someone clearly demonstrates he know's what he's talking about, is able to make intelligent decisions and learns new techniques quickly. In which case a certification is still just an add-on ;-) I used to have more trust in the /CC../ certifications but I find I may be laughing those off too quite soon. The vendor's introductory certs (CCNA, CCNP, JNCIA, JNCIS) don't say anything about a candidate, except exactly that (I got the cert). CCIE and JNCIE are still at least an indicator someone was at a certain level at the time of getting the certification, but are still no substitute for experience and a brain in good working order. It's too bad there aren't better general (non-vendor specific) certs, since what often lacks is general understanding of network architecture and protocols. You can teach anyone the right commands for Vendor X and they'll prolly get a basic config going on a few nodes, but when troubleshooting time comes it's useless without good knowledge of the underlying technology, which none of the vendor certs teach very well (IMHO anyway ;-) Cheers, Erik -- --- Erik Haagsman Network Architect We Dare BV tel: +31.10.7507008 fax: +31.10.7507005 http://www.we-dare.nl -- Don't be so depressed dear. I have no endorphins, what am I supposed to do? -DM and SK, February 10th, 1999 Dan Mahoney Techie, Sysadmin, WebGeek Gushi on efnet/undernet IRC ICQ: 13735144 AIM: LarpGM Site: http://www.gushi.org ---
Re: Cisco moves even more to china.
In article [EMAIL PROTECTED], Curtis Maurand [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes The way to fix things is to remove the incentives to move the jobs overseas in the first place. So are you suggesting wages (and standard of living) in America are reduced to the level of those in the 3rd world? -- Roland Perry
RE: Cisco moves even more to china.
Hi Joseph, On Fri, 2004-09-24 at 13:19, Joseph wrote: Your perception of Americans I think is very skewed by the media. You obviously did not read my post and wanted take a cheap shot. Although this is hardly the place to discuss this, I never said Americans, I said we. I'm Dutch, and we've got an equal amount of people whining about the same problems, thinking we'll be invaded and robbed from jobs because Poland joins the EU and Philips and CMG out-source to China and India. It's the same everywhere in the Western world, and my message was not intended as an attack on either an invidual or one country and it's people. I realise this is very generalising, but the majority of the people in all our countries couldn't care less if we rob the rest of the world blind, until there's a slight possibility they might actually be affected themselves. Hmmm. I had no idea there were only 2 networking companies, 1 database and 1 OS. =) With the rich competitive nature of the market I will continue to support companies which conform to a baseline of ethical business practice for all workers worldwide. I would like to do the same, but the fact of the matter is that in some key areas there's not much choice, especially when it comes to hardware...unless I've missed something I haven't seen an Open-Source carrier-grade routing system that can rival C or J's, and just about any commercial hardware manufacturer in the world has a production plant in one third world country or another, or at least uses loads of low-priced parts (memory, IC's etc.) that are manufactured in those same places. There's no escaping it if you're working in networking and IT. Kind regards, -- --- Erik Haagsman Network Architect We Dare BV tel: +31(0)10 7507008 fax:+31(0)10 7507005 http://www.we-dare.nl
RE: Cisco moves even more to china.
Yeah, but don't they already have a company over there that is producing Cisco stuff? Or did I mis-read a lawsuit? Cisco don't have a choice, they are starting to see the competition from Chinese companies already - they need to reduce the cost of manufacturing so that they can stay competitive and not have to reduce their margins, of which Cisco regularly state that they will maintain at all costs in a number of financial statements/briefings. So either they maintain their business by moving people to China or they pull the plug on product lines they can't maintain margins on. In either case people will be laid off, its not a great situation but it's the push that we all make to have things cheaper with more features in them. There are a number of companies building networking equipment in China: www.huawei.com www.zte.com.cn www.harbournetworks.com They make everything from mobile phones to Long Haul Optical Systems. A large number of big well known vendors have been making things in China for years. I've recently see one of Huawei's 1760 alternative boxes and the build quality is fantastic. Regards, Neil.
Re: Cisco moves even more to china.
The way to fix things is to remove the incentives to move the jobs overseas in the first place. So are you suggesting wages (and standard of living) in America are reduced to the level of those in the 3rd world? Hmmm... A beginning software engineer in Bangalore makes 15,000 Rupees per month which is about $330 USD. On the other hand, he can afford to hire one or two full-time servants to look after his apartment, cleaning, cooking, driving him home from the bars when he's had one too many. Is this a higher standard of living or a lower one? Many Indian citizens who emigrated to the USA have returned home because they want to INCREASE their standard of living. Let's just agree that lifestyles in different countries are different and diversity is a better thing than forcing everyone to adopt American standards and lifestyle. Many of us on this list are not Americans and many of us have had a taste of the American lifestyle and decided that life is better elsewhere. http://www.novapolis.de/india/bangalore_e.html And now we come to the Internet. This is the great enabler that allows people to live where they want and still participate in the modern world, work in challenging occupations and lead an intellectually fulfilling lifestyle without the constraints of geography. For the past 12 years I have been doing everything that I can to support this type of Internet and I'm now quite confident that it has enough momentum that not even the members of this mailing list are capable of stopping it. The Internet today is like the big wave http://www.towsurfer.com/ and nobody will stop it. This list is for people who want to ride the wave and find a fulfilling career doing so. If you really want to try and stop the wave, go ahead, but I think you should do that work elsewhere. --Michael Dillon
RE: Cisco moves even more to china.
On Thu, 23 Sep 2004, Joseph wrote: Modern capitalism does create a race to the bottom effect for labor which seems to have no end. This race exists because of imbalances in prosperity in world. The ultimate effect will be to completely level standard of living in the world, which in the greater scheme of things will be a good thing. This level will be far higher than it is now for the vast majority of people in the world. For some unfortunately it will no improvement, possibly even a slight drop. It's easy for me to say though, I live in a country that has gone from one of Europe's poorest, to one of Europe's richest in barely 20 years, thanks to globalisation and external investment (and EU grants and tax breaks to help attract that external investment). regards, -- Paul Jakma [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Key ID: 64A2FF6A Fortune: Kilroe hic erat!
Re: Cisco moves even more to china.
Neil J. McRae wrote: www.huawei.com I've recently see one of Huawei's 1760 alternative boxes and the build quality is fantastic. As a matter of fact, Huawei outsources a lot of its coding / design to their sei-cmm5 certified operation in Bangalore, India, and its shenzhen campus has at least a few hundred Indian engineers on its staff. srs
Re: Cisco moves even more to china.
In article [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes If you really want to try and stop the wave, go ahead, but I think you should do that work elsewhere. I'm all in favour of enhancing the wave; but who is worst off, the American engineer who fears the day he can't afford the payments on his Hummer, or the chap driving the Bangalorian engineer for a dollar a day? -- Roland Perry
Re: Cisco moves even more to china.
Great...So Cisco is turning into the Nike of technology. I can't wait to see 11 year olds building routers that sell for $1.5 million USD, while getting paid 7 cents/hour. [Thu, Sep 23, 2004 at 04:49:11PM -0700] Nicole Inscribed these words... Lovely, Just lovely. Just heard On CNN, Lou Dobbs. (but can't find it on their site) During a Beijing news conference John Chambers (Cisco CEO) Says We believe in giving something back and truly becoming a Chineese company. China will become the IT center or the world China will become the largest economy in the world. CNN Reports: Cisco is investing 32 Million into Changi and is training 10's of thousands of Chineese university students in Cisco technology. So.. I guess we will be cranking out those H1b's...Plan to kiss your raises and or jobs bye bye to some specialized cheap imported Cisco trained networking person from China. *SIGH* Nicole -- |\ __ /| (`\ | o_o |__ ) ) // \\ - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Powered by FreeBSD - -- The term daemons is a Judeo-Christian pejorative. Such processes will now be known as spiritual guides - Politicaly Correct UNIX Page Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work. - Thomas Edison Microsoft isn't evil, they just make really crappy operating systems. - Linus Torvalds -- Stephen (routerg) irc.dks.ca
RE: Cisco moves even more to china.
I just find the whole idea of Cisco amusing, they still sell new 7500 series routers for 6 figures with the right configurations, and they've been around for 10 years, in what other industry can you take a product that is a decade old, hasn't advanced in technology, and still sell them new for $100,000? Although admittedly most sensible people buy them on ebay for a grand these days. -Drew -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Stephen Perciballi Sent: Friday, September 24, 2004 9:56 AM To: Nicole Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Cisco moves even more to china. Great...So Cisco is turning into the Nike of technology. I can't wait to see 11 year olds building routers that sell for $1.5 million USD, while getting paid 7 cents/hour. [Thu, Sep 23, 2004 at 04:49:11PM -0700] Nicole Inscribed these words... Lovely, Just lovely. Just heard On CNN, Lou Dobbs. (but can't find it on their site) During a Beijing news conference John Chambers (Cisco CEO) Says We believe in giving something back and truly becoming a Chineese company. China will become the IT center or the world China will become the largest economy in the world. CNN Reports: Cisco is investing 32 Million into Changi and is training 10's of thousands of Chineese university students in Cisco technology. So.. I guess we will be cranking out those H1b's...Plan to kiss your raises and or jobs bye bye to some specialized cheap imported Cisco trained networking person from China. *SIGH* Nicole -- |\ __ /| (`\ | o_o |__ ) ) // \\ - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Powered by FreeBSD - -- The term daemons is a Judeo-Christian pejorative. Such processes will now be known as spiritual guides - Politicaly Correct UNIX Page Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work. - Thomas Edison Microsoft isn't evil, they just make really crappy operating systems. - Linus Torvalds -- Stephen (routerg) irc.dks.ca
Re: Cisco moves even more to china.
On Fri, Sep 24, 2004 at 10:45:01AM -0400, Drew Weaver wrote: I just find the whole idea of Cisco amusing, they still sell new 7500 series routers for 6 figures with the right configurations, and they've been around for 10 years, in what other industry can you take a product that is a decade old, hasn't advanced in technology, and still sell them new for $100,000? You're asking the wrong question, and with wrong basis. 7500 platform has evolved significantly over time. Think about RSP1, and *IP linecards, all with centralized RSP-based process/fast switching. Nowadays you have z-Chassis, RSP16, VIP8, PAs, with distributed CEF. Also, you have a large range of interfaces available, even somewhat exotic ones. And you can still use the old *IP linecards without having to make too many compromises (you'll lose some features on those *IP based interfaces, and dCEF from/to them). I'm seeing a lot of RSP4/VIP[24] based 7507/7513 still in nice use, basically unchanged in terms of upgrades since around five years. I can think of very few products in the ISP network device industry which do survive such a long usable life cycle, shifting nicely from the very high-speed core down to access/pop-in-a-box applications and still run code (12.2S) which has almost all of today's technical bells and whistles. The 7500 line is clearly an outstanding example of what kind of gear the industry needs. IMHO, said by a known Cisco anti-fan. YMMV. Although admittedly most sensible people buy them on ebay for a grand these days. Yup. Regards, Daniel
RE: Cisco moves even more to china.
Outsourcing is a way of life. It is a result of free trade policy. It has been happening for a long time in the other industries. There are very real benefits to the outsourcing. It helps keep our cost of living down (I live in California). On the other hand, it is very hard on the folks whose livelihood it is affecting. On the the other hand, there can be some concrete steps that can be taken to alleviate the problem in US. More education and training would help the displaced folks better adapt to the changing landscape. Did you know that only 7% of native born Californians go to graduate school? Government should invest in infrastructure or give tax incentives to companies investing in infrastructure. Building infrastructure provides base on which innovation flourishes. There should be pressure built on foreign governments to play by the rules. For instance, if a country were to have fixed currency instead of allowing it float, then it is using unfair practices. Allowing currencies to float in countries where the outsourced jobs are landing would increase their buying power and the cost differential goes down very quickly. This country (USA) has always been on the cutting edge of innovation for generations. They have always managed to come up with the next level of innovation to come out on tops. They have been doing it for years and there is no reason to believe that it won't happen again. Don't listen to all the doom and gloom being spewed. Vinay Bannai
Re: Cisco moves even more to china.
Then you all need to stop purchasing from Dell, IBM, HP, Cisco, et al. Of course. Don't purchase from DELL, purchase from ServersDirect. Don't purchase from HP, purchase (for home) from brand-less or E-Machine. Don't purchase from EMC, purchase from Adap. Are any idiots here, who purchase CA Unicenter? etc... Btw, I do not deal with Bank Of America; I deal with Patelco CU. (But I deal with Safeway and walMart -:)). It's not about outsourcing, through, it's about _BIG, OLD, and FAT_ brands. Cisco was the only one who keeps going as a startup for more than 5 - 7 years; but now (few years) they behave as a _BIG, FAT and OLD brand_ (not in everything, they still have a lot of drive). (Compare - AX100 from AMC and FS4500 from Adaptec. Compare server frm DELL and server from SuperMicro... Comp[are RedHat linux and SuSe linux. The same happen with Cisco; knowing their internal athmosphere, which changed dramatically - I should not want to work for them, no I bet on their long life). They've all outsourced quite a bit to the third world. 90% of the parts for any of this stuff come from Asia. The US has lost more manufacturing jobs in the last 3 years then the previous 22. There are 18% fewer tech jobs in this country than there were 4 years ago. You'll also need to stop dealing with Citicorp and Bank of America and the rest of the big financial companies that have moved IT operations to Bangalor or deal with companies like Keane that do as much as possible offshore. Motorola is moving RD to China (tantamount to giving away military secrets). I can go on. Those last two statements don't make much sense to me. The way to fix things is to remove the incentives to move the jobs overseas in the first place. Fair trade, not free trade. Joseph wrote: [snip] We as world citizens need to come to grips with the fact that we must compete with workers internationally but we should be doing so on FAIR playing field. Pure free market capitalism has no concept fairness and equity and no room for correcting the drastic changes that can sometimes cause great societal costs. Capitalism is not inherently bad but it is an imperfect system in need of much guidance. Historically the only way this system has been improved is by Labor action, political involvement and transparent government. Getting upset about job losses is useless and futile we need to take action! Don't Support Outsourcing Don't buy from companies that outsource US jobs. Be very vocal and call and mail these companies and let them know you will not support them. Let them know you are watching what they are doing and will vote with your Dollars. Check out the site below to look up any company. http://www.workingamerica.org/ Be Politically Active Be politically aware and active! Remain politically active and tell your state local politician and the president that they need to be protective of American jobs and leveling the playing field in world wide labor market. Check out these links http://www.pbs.org/now/politics/outsourcedebate.html http://www.workingamerica.org/ Just my 2 cents. =)
RE: Cisco moves even more to china.
Without getting into the entire conceptual argument about capitalism in general and why some semi-sane economic decisions are made... What is it that makes you think that boycotting a company (particularly one the size or deployment of Cisco and/or Juniper) would make someone say "oh, I'm sorry, it looks like we made a bad decision in saving some money"??? Now, let's also go back and look at the original post. Cisco is putting in what? $32 million. in the grand scheme of things, just what kind of impact do you really believe this is going to have? Committing to training people in another country is not a commitment to abandon jobs elsewhere. Look at the economics of how much the Chinese market is growing. Or should we handle all of that extra work in supporting that country's expanding market with jobs already here in the US (or wherever). Oh wait, don't many US folks already complain about the down-, right-, left-, some-direction-sizing that's going on and how overworked they may be? There are SOME areas where the outsourcing may hit a chord, and everyone is always welcome to their soapbox. I just don't think it really applies to the particulars that were announced here, and certainly not to this level. As ANY good job-seeker should realize, it's all about economics. So make yourself a more marketable or valuable person than others. Whether through certifications (not starting this war) or experiences or the ability to demonstrate business prowess along with technical skills... But where do we draw the line? Almost ANY electronics company uses non-American parts. Many clothing manufacturers use off-shore assembly. Everyone is entitled to desire purchasing locally-produced goods only, but at the same time it's hard to justify complaining about how much more expensive some of those items may be! It's everywhere As long as there are options, it'll never change. We see the shift now because of the ease of travel and shipping and ubiquitous communications (oh damn, that means were in an industry that may have helped this "evil" trend). It's economic destiny, which means to fight it we need to make the overall economic choice one that leans our direction (whever that "our" may be). But simply complaining about it is the easy part. Figuring out the "why" and then working to make the decision better to go a different direction is harder. Business decisions, like routes, have metrics. Figure out what they are and change them if desired. but it's not nearly as simple! Scott From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of JosephSent: Friday, September 24, 2004 7:19 AMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: RE: Cisco moves even more to china. Hello Erik, Although I agree with you on many points I think its time people stop complaining and take action. My point was not to idly complain about the outsourcing trend and claim that protectionism is the answer but, to ask if there is a better way to deal with the long term trend for ALL of us. Boycotting is just one way to send a message rather than simply complaining. Your perception of Americans I think is very skewed by the media. You obviously did not read my post and wanted take a cheap shot. Many Americans like myself have always been fighting for equity, fairness and democracy from the beginning in all our activities. Try not to equate a people with what you read and hear in the media and realize they have much more diversity of opinion than is portrayed therein. I argue we BOTH American and international workers (that means you) need to change the system so that we are all treated fairly. I don't think this is an off the wall ideal. But to each his own. Hmmm. I had no idea there were only 2 networking companies, 1 database and 1 OS. =) With the rich competitive nature of the market I will continue to support companies which conform to a baseline of ethical business practice for all workers worldwide. With deepest respect, JErik Haagsman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, 2004-09-24 at 03:53, Joseph wrote: Its time for all American Tech workers to stand up and let our voices be heard.Perhaps it's time instead to make sure you're good at what you do andtry to be on the forefront of tech, rather than whining about how allthose bad people from abroad are stealing your job. It's largely our ownfault labour pricing in large outsourcing countries like India are solow, and now it's coming back to bite some of us. We as world citizens need to come to grips with the fact that we must compete with workers internationally but we should be doing so on FAIR playing field. Strangely people only start calling for a level, fair playing field whenthey feel something's threatening their own little piece of the cake. Ifmost companies and governments we're happy to work for wouldn't havebeen undermini
Re: Cisco moves even more to china.
Nicole wrote: Lovely, Just lovely. Just heard On CNN, Lou Dobbs. (but can't find it on their site) Well if Lou Dobbs said it on the air, then it must be true...
Re: Cisco moves even more to china.
The current wave of outsourcing is driven by greed and greed alone. What's going on now would make Gordon Gekko blush. There is nothing stopping the companies from paying the workers in India or China the prevailing wage in the developed countries which would really accelerate growth in these countries and would have the side effect of making the playing field level as in let the best engineer win rather than the cheapest. Right now outsourcers are moving jobs from India to Bangladesh and Africa because wages and the standard of living in India is rising so the Indians are seeing what we see here in the US. What is often forgotten is that innovation in an industry comes from its practitioners not a collective of marketing types and systems archetects. So by outsourcing we are sending the wellspring of innovation and the attendant wealth creation elsewhere. Scott C. McGrath On Fri, 24 Sep 2004, Robin Lynn Frank wrote: On Fri, 24 Sep 2004 14:49:54 +0100 (IST) Paul Jakma [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Modern capitalism does create a race to the bottom effect for labor which seems to have no end. This race exists because of imbalances in prosperity in world. This race exists because governments beholden to corporate interests, permit it to exist. A US company that sacrifices the welfare of US workers for the sake of its bottom line, or to curry favor with a foreign government, is not one I care to do business with. I usually lurk, not post. I just needed to say this. -- Robin Lynn Frank Director of Operations Paradigm-Omega, LLC http://www.paradigm-omega.com == Sed quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Re: Cisco moves even more to china.
On Fri, 24 Sep 2004, Robin Lynn Frank wrote: This race exists because of imbalances in prosperity in world. This race exists because governments beholden to corporate interests, permit it to exist. No, with free trade, it exists because of imbalance. Unless of course you are completely against free trade, and hence blame the government for not tariffing the problem out of existence - which of course means you end-up paying more for your clothes, food, oil, computers, etc. Which means growth in your economy slows down, your stocks dont do as well, etc... A US company that sacrifices the welfare of US workers for the sake of its bottom line, or to curry favor with a foreign government, is not one I care to do business with. See Suresh's post, what do you do for clothes? BTW, I work for an American technology company. I'm probably doing a job that would otherwise be done by an American (or, at least, a US resident, good few of my colleagues in the US are not of american origin), and I'm probably doing it for a lower salary than an american would - and that's despite fact that cost of living in my country is at least comparable to that in the USA (if possibly even slightly higher). But think to yourself, what happens to the profits made by american multinational, US parented, companies? regards, -- Paul Jakma [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Key ID: 64A2FF6A Fortune: Left to themselves, things tend to go from bad to worse.
Re: Cisco moves even more to china.
On 24-Sep-04 the GW commando coersion squad reported Peter Galbavy said : Nicole wrote: So.. I guess we will be cranking out those H1b's...Plan to kiss your raises and or jobs bye bye to some specialized cheap imported Cisco trained networking person from China. There is an implicit assumption here that the objective of 100% of these trainees will be to move as economic migrants to the West. Wrong folks. Very very wrong. Notice how China as a *consumer* is growing faster than anyone else around ? While there may well be some (what's the right word ?) retro-sourcing of cheap labour into the US (and the EU), I suspect that once any initial levelling of the field happens, there will be just as much, if not more, movement the other way. China is a communist and closed loop society. Thats teh real problem. The company that claims it runs the internet (or some such phrase) is now saying we prefer communist China than America and American Jobs. China is very very good and writing into their contacts that most all training and workers are Chineese. No one can reasonably assume that any number larger than you have fingers and toes will be imported to work on Cisco gear. Let alone any other networking. What company woudl not want to hire someone who puts on his resume helped configure and work on the largest new networking buildout since 1993. Or trained in Cisco training center. Now yes, some of that money will eeek its way back into the hands of the American companies. But with their seting themselves up offshore to avoid taxes and re-investing into China etc and feeding their economy. After they pay their million dollar salary's how much do you think trickles back down to us? Btw the best definition I ever heard of trickle down economy was from Bill Maher who said its like a eufamism for being peed on from above. of Gosh we have so much money to hold.. some may fall through as we try to hang onto it all.. so you can have that. Much like scraps for the pet dog. Yes it may hit China eventually like it did with Japan that our futures are linked. But China is playing things close to the chest. They really don't need to import much so they are not so linked to us during their growth. They don't really buy much from us. What they Have to buy they seem to be counterfitting or getting cheaply or just plain ol stealing as far as technology goes. There is a lot of jingoistic rhetoric here, and not enough rational thought about the objective - building big networks in the biggest economy of the near future. Yes, but it will be done by the chineese. You won't see more than a handfull of people their. Probobly mostly the execs smiling about their payoff and planned happy retirement. PS I hate *all* certification with a passion, regardless of level and including things like my BSc which was just a great excuse to drink lots for a few years. The person doing the selection of candidates should have enough expertise themselves to make a rational judgement based on a face to face interview. If Cisco was sex there would be 90% fewer babies! You need a manual even for something basic and you can't do much more without loads of training. It's what assured and kept most networking people fat and happy. It's not some windows based thing that can be additionally assigned to bob in accounting when he's not busy. But when a company can find a way to cut costs. They will! Becouse we as Americans are lazy and complacent and most don't even know what's going on in the world. The most amazing thing to me is the concept that someone actually had a house, a car, was married with kids and supported them well by owning a hat store! Nicole Peter -- |\ __ /| (`\ | o_o |__ ) ) // \\ - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Powered by FreeBSD - -- The term daemons is a Judeo-Christian pejorative. Such processes will now be known as spiritual guides - Politicaly Correct UNIX Page Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work. - Thomas Edison Microsoft isn't evil, they just make really crappy operating systems. - Linus Torvalds
Re: Cisco moves even more to china.
Thus spake Nicole [EMAIL PROTECTED] On 24-Sep-04 the GW commando coersion squad reported Peter Galbavy said : Nicole wrote: So.. I guess we will be cranking out those H1b's...Plan to kiss your raises and or jobs bye bye to some specialized cheap imported Cisco trained networking person from China. There is an implicit assumption here that the objective of 100% of these trainees will be to move as economic migrants to the West. Wrong folks. Very very wrong. Notice how China as a *consumer* is growing faster than anyone else around ? While there may well be some (what's the right word ?) retro-sourcing of cheap labour into the US (and the EU), I suspect that once any initial levelling of the field happens, there will be just as much, if not more, movement the other way. China is a communist and closed loop society. Thats teh real problem. The company that claims it runs the internet (or some such phrase) is now saying we prefer communist China than America and American Jobs. Cisco investing 0.1% of their revenue into China is hardly a preference for that country over America. They spend more than that buying (er, contributing to campaigns for) politicians in the US. This bashing of overseas workers always comes down to Americans not willing to accept that demanding obscene salaries will lose them jobs when there are people elsewhere willing to work for four figures (or even three); welcome to Supply and Demand 101. Also, having worked there at the time, Cisco started moving sustaining work on IOS to India because American coders simply refused to work on bug-fixing projects and demanded assignments working on new features. If the cost of hiring Americans is hundreds of times more, why would any sane company insist on hiring more Americans -- if they can even find any to do the work? The problem with China and several other countries in that region is the fact the people are effectively slave laborers -- assigned to jobs by (in effect) a military dictatorship and jailed or executed if they complain about the work or wages. We would be rightfully outraged if this were happening in the US, and IMHO this is the _only_ legitimate reason to complain about Cisco's investment in that particular country. Cisco's also in a rough position. Investors and analysts expect Cisco to maintain 70% margins overall, and customers want lower prices and more aggressive discounts or they'll go to competitors. The only way Cisco can make both sides happy is to find cheaper labor, hence India, Mexico, and China. Before you complain about this, take a close look at your 401k and see how much money you have invested in Cisco -- you're probably part of the problem, if only indirectly. China is very very good and writing into their contacts that most all training and workers are Chineese. No one can reasonably assume that any number larger than you have fingers and toes will be imported to work on Cisco gear. Let alone any other networking. That's standard practice in int'l business. Many European countries require that on-site techs, engineers, etc. be citizens of that country. The US Govt even does the same on many contracts, requiring foreign companies hire a certain percentage of US citizens to work on the project. What company woudl not want to hire someone who puts on his resume helped configure and work on the largest new networking buildout since 1993. Or trained in Cisco training center. When I'm hiring folks, all I care about is whether they're competent at the particular job I have a req for. Typically that requires skills far above anything offerred in a Cisco training class; CCNAs in particular are a pain to hire since so much of the training is outdated or downright wrong. S Stephen Sprunk God does not play dice. --Albert Einstein CCIE #3723 God is an inveterate gambler, and He throws the K5SSSdice at every possible opportunity. --Stephen Hawking
Cisco moves even more to china.
Lovely, Just lovely. Just heard On CNN, Lou Dobbs. (but can't find it on their site) During a Beijing news conference John Chambers (Cisco CEO) Says We believe in giving something back and truly becoming a Chineese company. China will become the IT center or the world China will become the largest economy in the world. CNN Reports: Cisco is investing 32 Million into Changi and is training 10's of thousands of Chineese university students in Cisco technology. So.. I guess we will be cranking out those H1b's...Plan to kiss your raises and or jobs bye bye to some specialized cheap imported Cisco trained networking person from China. *SIGH* Nicole -- |\ __ /| (`\ | o_o |__ ) ) // \\ - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Powered by FreeBSD - -- The term daemons is a Judeo-Christian pejorative. Such processes will now be known as spiritual guides - Politicaly Correct UNIX Page Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work. - Thomas Edison Microsoft isn't evil, they just make really crappy operating systems. - Linus Torvalds
Re: Cisco moves even more to china.
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 16:49:11 -0700 (PDT) From: Nicole [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Cisco moves even more to china. Lovely, Just lovely. Just heard On CNN, Lou Dobbs. (but can't find it on their site) During a Beijing news conference John Chambers (Cisco CEO) Says We believe in giving something back and truly becoming a Chineese company. China will become the IT center or the world China will become the largest economy in the world. CNN Reports: Cisco is investing 32 Million into Changi and is training 10's of thousands of Chineese university students in Cisco technology. So.. I guess we will be cranking out those H1b's...Plan to kiss your raises and or jobs bye bye to some specialized cheap imported Cisco trained networking person from China. Yeah, but don't they already have a company over there that is producing Cisco stuff? Or did I mis-read a lawsuit? *SIGH* Nicole -- |\ __ /| (`\ | o_o |__ ) ) // \\ - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Powered by FreeBSD - -- The term daemons is a Judeo-Christian pejorative. Such processes will now be known as spiritual guides - Politicaly Correct UNIX Page Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work. - Thomas Edison Microsoft isn't evil, they just make really crappy operating systems. - Linus Torvalds --- Gregory Hicks| Principal Systems Engineer Cadence Design Systems | Direct: 408.576.3609 555 River Oaks Pkwy M/S 6B1 | Fax: 408.894.3400 San Jose, CA 95134 | Internet: [EMAIL PROTECTED] I am perfectly capable of learning from my mistakes. I will surely learn a great deal today. A democracy is a sheep and two wolves deciding on what to have for lunch. Freedom is a well armed sheep contesting the results of the decision. - Benjamin Franklin The best we can hope for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed. --Alexander Hamilton
Re: Cisco moves even more to china.
Nicole wrote: Lovely, Just lovely. Just heard On CNN, Lou Dobbs. (but can't find it on their site) During a Beijing news conference John Chambers (Cisco CEO) Says We believe in giving something back and truly becoming a Chineese company. China will become the IT center or the world China will become the largest economy in the world. CNN Reports: Cisco is investing 32 Million into Changi and is training 10's of thousands of Chineese university students in Cisco technology. So.. I guess we will be cranking out those H1b's...Plan to kiss your raises and or jobs bye bye to some specialized cheap imported Cisco trained networking person from China. Oh, I don't know, somebody has to stay over there and assist the spammers and their colo websites. Jeff
Re: Cisco moves even more to china.
Hmm..we're flooded by CCNA's and CCNP's that often hardly know how logon to a router as it is, so this will probably add a lot more, a bit like the MCSE craze a few years ago ;-) When they say training thousands of students, they're not talking thousands of CCIE-level specialists that actually know what they're doing. If anything it looks like we should feel sorry for people working production for Cisco since it looks like production will be completely based in China in the not too far future. Cheers, Erik On Fri, 2004-09-24 at 01:49, Nicole wrote: Lovely, Just lovely. Just heard On CNN, Lou Dobbs. (but can't find it on their site) During a Beijing news conference John Chambers (Cisco CEO) Says We believe in giving something back and truly becoming a Chineese company. China will become the IT center or the world China will become the largest economy in the world. CNN Reports: Cisco is investing 32 Million into Changi and is training 10's of thousands of Chineese university students in Cisco technology. So.. I guess we will be cranking out those H1b's...Plan to kiss your raises and or jobs bye bye to some specialized cheap imported Cisco trained networking person from China. *SIGH* Nicole -- |\ __ /| (`\ | o_o |__ ) ) // \\ - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Powered by FreeBSD - -- The term daemons is a Judeo-Christian pejorative. Such processes will now be known as spiritual guides - Politicaly Correct UNIX Page Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work. - Thomas Edison Microsoft isn't evil, they just make really crappy operating systems. - Linus Torvalds -- --- Erik Haagsman Network Architect We Dare BV tel: +31.10.7507008 fax: +31.10.7507005 http://www.we-dare.nl
Re: Cisco moves even more to china.
On Fri, 24 Sep 2004, Erik Haagsman wrote: I've always personally taken anyone who said but I'm an MCSE with a grain of salt. I've had equal respect for the A-plus and Net-Plus certifications, which are basically bought. I used to have more trust in the /CC../ certifications but I find I may be laughing those off too quite soon. MCSE - Microsoft-claimed Substitute for Experience. A-Plus - The only possible grade in a pass/fail test. Net-Plus - An accounting term for how can we net more money with this bull certification Not one of the above properly teaches you how to run, say, DNS correctly (my opinions on the Active Directory DNS butchery notwithstanding). I'm sure in time I'll come up with others sometime after I have to argue with green CC.. people who think the paper makes them infallible and prove them wrong with a 20-second search of cisco.com. Hmm..we're flooded by CCNA's and CCNP's that often hardly know how logon to a router as it is, so this will probably add a lot more, a bit like the MCSE craze a few years ago ;-) When they say training thousands of students, they're not talking thousands of CCIE-level specialists that actually know what they're doing. If anything it looks like we should feel sorry for people working production for Cisco since it looks like production will be completely based in China in the not too far future. Cheers, Erik On Fri, 2004-09-24 at 01:49, Nicole wrote: Lovely, Just lovely. Just heard On CNN, Lou Dobbs. (but can't find it on their site) During a Beijing news conference John Chambers (Cisco CEO) Says We believe in giving something back and truly becoming a Chineese company. China will become the IT center or the world China will become the largest economy in the world. CNN Reports: Cisco is investing 32 Million into Changi and is training 10's of thousands of Chineese university students in Cisco technology. So.. I guess we will be cranking out those H1b's...Plan to kiss your raises and or jobs bye bye to some specialized cheap imported Cisco trained networking person from China. *SIGH* Nicole -- |\ __ /| (`\ | o_o |__ ) ) // \\ - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Powered by FreeBSD - -- The term daemons is a Judeo-Christian pejorative. Such processes will now be known as spiritual guides - Politicaly Correct UNIX Page Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work. - Thomas Edison Microsoft isn't evil, they just make really crappy operating systems. - Linus Torvalds -- --- Erik Haagsman Network Architect We Dare BV tel: +31.10.7507008 fax: +31.10.7507005 http://www.we-dare.nl -- She's been getting attacked by these leeches, they're leaving these marks all over her neck. You gotta keep her out of those woods. If one more leech gets her, she's gonna get a smack. -Someone's Mother, December 18th, 1998 Dan Mahoney Techie, Sysadmin, WebGeek Gushi on efnet/undernet IRC ICQ: 13735144 AIM: LarpGM Site: http://www.gushi.org ---
Re: Cisco moves even more to china.
On Fri, 2004-09-24 at 02:29, Dan Mahoney, System Admin wrote: I've always personally taken anyone who said but I'm an MCSE with a grain of salt. I've had equal respect for the A-plus and Net-Plus certifications, which are basically bought. I take most certifications with a grain of salt, including degrees, unless someone clearly demonstrates he know's what he's talking about, is able to make intelligent decisions and learns new techniques quickly. In which case a certification is still just an add-on ;-) I used to have more trust in the /CC../ certifications but I find I may be laughing those off too quite soon. The vendor's introductory certs (CCNA, CCNP, JNCIA, JNCIS) don't say anything about a candidate, except exactly that (I got the cert). CCIE and JNCIE are still at least an indicator someone was at a certain level at the time of getting the certification, but are still no substitute for experience and a brain in good working order. It's too bad there aren't better general (non-vendor specific) certs, since what often lacks is general understanding of network architecture and protocols. You can teach anyone the right commands for Vendor X and they'll prolly get a basic config going on a few nodes, but when troubleshooting time comes it's useless without good knowledge of the underlying technology, which none of the vendor certs teach very well (IMHO anyway ;-) Cheers, Erik -- --- Erik Haagsman Network Architect We Dare BV tel: +31.10.7507008 fax: +31.10.7507005 http://www.we-dare.nl
RE: Cisco moves even more to china.
I think the IT field as a whole, programmers, network guys, etc... are going to go the way of the auto workers in the 70's and 80's. I am a CCIE working and on a second one and it saddens me that all my hard work and advanced knowledge could be replaced by a chop-shop guy because from a business standpoint quarter to quarter the chop-shop guy is cheaper on the books. Never mind the fact that I solve problems on the network in under 30mins and save the company from downtime but I am too expensive. I used to love technology and all it had to offer but now I feel cheated, I feel like we all have been burned by the way the business guys look at the technology, as a commodity. Thankfully I am still young (mid 20's) I can make a career switch but I'll still love the technology. Anyway I am going to start the paper work to be an H1b to China and brush up on my Mandarin. Jason -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Erik Haagsman Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2004 7:55 PM To: Dan Mahoney, System Admin Cc: Nicole; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Cisco moves even more to china. On Fri, 2004-09-24 at 02:29, Dan Mahoney, System Admin wrote: I've always personally taken anyone who said but I'm an MCSE with a grain of salt. I've had equal respect for the A-plus and Net-Plus certifications, which are basically bought. I take most certifications with a grain of salt, including degrees, unless someone clearly demonstrates he know's what he's talking about, is able to make intelligent decisions and learns new techniques quickly. In which case a certification is still just an add-on ;-) I used to have more trust in the /CC../ certifications but I find I may be laughing those off too quite soon. The vendor's introductory certs (CCNA, CCNP, JNCIA, JNCIS) don't say anything about a candidate, except exactly that (I got the cert). CCIE and JNCIE are still at least an indicator someone was at a certain level at the time of getting the certification, but are still no substitute for experience and a brain in good working order. It's too bad there aren't better general (non-vendor specific) certs, since what often lacks is general understanding of network architecture and protocols. You can teach anyone the right commands for Vendor X and they'll prolly get a basic config going on a few nodes, but when troubleshooting time comes it's useless without good knowledge of the underlying technology, which none of the vendor certs teach very well (IMHO anyway ;-) Cheers, Erik -- --- Erik Haagsman Network Architect We Dare BV tel: +31.10.7507008 fax: +31.10.7507005 http://www.we-dare.nl
RE: Cisco moves even more to china.
On Thu, 23 Sep 2004, Jason Graun wrote: I think the IT field as a whole, programmers, network guys, etc... are going to go the way of the auto workers in the 70's and 80's. I am a CCIE working and on a second one and it saddens me that all my hard work and advanced knowledge could be replaced by a chop-shop guy because from a business standpoint quarter to quarter the chop-shop guy is cheaper on the books. Never mind the fact that I solve problems on the network in under 30mins and save the company from downtime but I am too expensive. I used to love technology and all it had to offer but now I feel cheated, I feel like we all have been burned by the way the business guys look at the technology, as a commodity. Thankfully I am still young (mid 20's) I can make a career switch but I'll still love the technology. Anyway I am going to start the paper work to be an H1b to China and brush up on my Mandarin. I've felt this way about things at times. It's why I'm getting my CDL. I highly doubt they can find a way to outsource *that* to some third-world country. -Dan Jason -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Erik Haagsman Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2004 7:55 PM To: Dan Mahoney, System Admin Cc: Nicole; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Cisco moves even more to china. On Fri, 2004-09-24 at 02:29, Dan Mahoney, System Admin wrote: I've always personally taken anyone who said but I'm an MCSE with a grain of salt. I've had equal respect for the A-plus and Net-Plus certifications, which are basically bought. I take most certifications with a grain of salt, including degrees, unless someone clearly demonstrates he know's what he's talking about, is able to make intelligent decisions and learns new techniques quickly. In which case a certification is still just an add-on ;-) I used to have more trust in the /CC../ certifications but I find I may be laughing those off too quite soon. The vendor's introductory certs (CCNA, CCNP, JNCIA, JNCIS) don't say anything about a candidate, except exactly that (I got the cert). CCIE and JNCIE are still at least an indicator someone was at a certain level at the time of getting the certification, but are still no substitute for experience and a brain in good working order. It's too bad there aren't better general (non-vendor specific) certs, since what often lacks is general understanding of network architecture and protocols. You can teach anyone the right commands for Vendor X and they'll prolly get a basic config going on a few nodes, but when troubleshooting time comes it's useless without good knowledge of the underlying technology, which none of the vendor certs teach very well (IMHO anyway ;-) Cheers, Erik -- --- Erik Haagsman Network Architect We Dare BV tel: +31.10.7507008 fax: +31.10.7507005 http://www.we-dare.nl -- Don't be so depressed dear. I have no endorphins, what am I supposed to do? -DM and SK, February 10th, 1999 Dan Mahoney Techie, Sysadmin, WebGeek Gushi on efnet/undernet IRC ICQ: 13735144 AIM: LarpGM Site: http://www.gushi.org ---
Re: Cisco moves even more to china.
Oh Jesus cry me a river... People, you're in tech. It will never stop changing. That means you should never stop learning. If you stop learning, yes somebody else is going to take your job because as an area of tech matures, tools to manage it become better, less sophisticated people can do the job, and operational cost of that widget goes down. Do you really want to still be hand-editing BGP configs in 5 years time? Should web monkeys still make $80k for writing HTML? Go learn something new and be the badass at that and you'll keep making your 6 figure salary. Or, to look at it from a humorous point of view: It's just a matter of time until neurosurgeons will be coming from ITT tech. ;) John On Thu, Sep 23, 2004 at 08:12:47PM -0500, Jason Graun wrote: I think the IT field as a whole, programmers, network guys, etc... are going to go the way of the auto workers in the 70's and 80's. I am a CCIE working and on a second one and it saddens me that all my hard work and advanced knowledge could be replaced by a chop-shop guy because from a business standpoint quarter to quarter the chop-shop guy is cheaper on the books. Never mind the fact that I solve problems on the network in under 30mins and save the company from downtime but I am too expensive. I used to love technology and all it had to offer but now I feel cheated, I feel like we all have been burned by the way the business guys look at the technology, as a commodity. Thankfully I am still young (mid 20's) I can make a career switch but I'll still love the technology. Anyway I am going to start the paper work to be an H1b to China and brush up on my Mandarin. Jason -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Erik Haagsman Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2004 7:55 PM To: Dan Mahoney, System Admin Cc: Nicole; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Cisco moves even more to china. On Fri, 2004-09-24 at 02:29, Dan Mahoney, System Admin wrote: I've always personally taken anyone who said but I'm an MCSE with a grain of salt. I've had equal respect for the A-plus and Net-Plus certifications, which are basically bought. I take most certifications with a grain of salt, including degrees, unless someone clearly demonstrates he know's what he's talking about, is able to make intelligent decisions and learns new techniques quickly. In which case a certification is still just an add-on ;-) I used to have more trust in the /CC../ certifications but I find I may be laughing those off too quite soon. The vendor's introductory certs (CCNA, CCNP, JNCIA, JNCIS) don't say anything about a candidate, except exactly that (I got the cert). CCIE and JNCIE are still at least an indicator someone was at a certain level at the time of getting the certification, but are still no substitute for experience and a brain in good working order. It's too bad there aren't better general (non-vendor specific) certs, since what often lacks is general understanding of network architecture and protocols. You can teach anyone the right commands for Vendor X and they'll prolly get a basic config going on a few nodes, but when troubleshooting time comes it's useless without good knowledge of the underlying technology, which none of the vendor certs teach very well (IMHO anyway ;-) Cheers, Erik -- --- Erik Haagsman Network Architect We Dare BV tel: +31.10.7507008 fax: +31.10.7507005 http://www.we-dare.nl
RE: Cisco moves even more to china.
Hello Everyone,
Hey, I feel your pain and am seeing the same things happen all over our industry. Sadly, globalization is not a new trend and it will never end but I think its time WE alter its course. Its time for all American Tech workers to stand up and let our voices be heard. Modern capitalism does create a race to the bottom effect for labor which seems to have no end. Workers world wide need to realize they are at risk for the same slippery slope we now see in the United States. No one is insulated. Unless we all mobilize and make our voices heard the economic landscape will leave us behind as another casualty. This made worse by the multinational corporation who's only desire is to satisfy stockholders needs. We as world citizens need to come to grips with the fact that we must compete with workers internationally but we should be doing so on FAIR playing field. Pure free market capitalism has no concept fairness and equity and no room for correcting the drastic
changes that can sometimes cause great societal costs. Capitalism is not inherently bad but it is an imperfect system in need of much guidance. Historically the only way this system has been improved is by Labor action, political involvement and transparent government. Getting upset about job losses is useless and futile we need to take action!
Don't Support Outsourcing
Don't buy from companies that outsource US jobs. Be very vocal and call and mail these companies and let them know you will not support them. Let them know you are watching what they are doing and will vote with your Dollars. Check out the site below to look up any company. http://www.workingamerica.org/
Be Politically Active
Be politically aware and active! Remain politically active and tell your state local politician and the president that they need to be protective of American jobs and leveling the playing field in world wide labor market.
Check out these links
http://www.pbs.org/now/politics/outsourcedebate.html
http://www.workingamerica.org/
Just my 2 cents. =) Jason Graun [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I think the IT field as a whole, programmers, network guys, etc... are goingto go the way of the auto workers in the 70's and 80's. I am a CCIE workingand on a second one and it saddens me that all my hard work and advancedknowledge could be replaced by a chop-shop guy because from a businessstandpoint quarter to quarter the chop-shop guy is cheaper on the books.Never mind the fact that I solve problems on the network in under 30mins andsave the company from downtime but I am too expensive. I used to lovetechnology and all it had to offer but now I feel cheated, I feel like weall have been burned by the way the business guys look at the technology, asa commodity. Thankfully I am still young (mid 20's) I can make a careerswitch but I'll still love the technology. Anyway I am going to start thepaper work to be an H1b to China and brush up
on my Mandarin.Jason-Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of ErikHaagsmanSent: Thursday, September 23, 2004 7:55 PMTo: Dan Mahoney, System AdminCc: Nicole; [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: Cisco moves even more to china.On Fri, 2004-09-24 at 02:29, Dan Mahoney, System Admin wrote: I've always personally taken anyone who said "but I'm an MCSE" with a grain of salt. I've had equal respect for the A-plus and Net-Plus certifications, which are basically bought.I take most certifications with a grain of salt, including degrees,unless someone clearly demonstrates he know's what he's talking about,is able to make intelligent decisions and learns new techniques quickly.In which case a certification is still just an add-on ;-) I used to have more trust in the /CC../ certifications but I find I may be laughing those off
too quite soon.The vendor's introductory certs (CCNA, CCNP, JNCIA, JNCIS) don't sayanything about a candidate, except exactly that ("I got the cert"). CCIEand JNCIE are still at least an indicator someone was at a certain levelat the time of getting the certification, but are still no substitutefor experience and a brain in good working order. It's too bad therearen't better "general" (non-vendor specific) certs, since what oftenlacks is general understanding of network architecture and protocols. You can teach anyone the right commands for Vendor X and they'll prollyget a basic config going on a few nodes, but when troubleshooting timecomes it's useless without good knowledge of the underlying technology,which none of the vendor certs teach very well (IMHO anyway ;-)Cheers,Erik-- ---Erik HaagsmanNetwork ArchitectWe Dare BVtel: +31.10.7507008fax:
+31.10.7507005http://www.we-dare.nl
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Re: Cisco moves even more to china.
Joseph [23/09/04 18:53 -0700]: Don't Support Outsourcing I suggest you lead by example. Don't buy from companies that outsource US jobs. Be very vocal and Now please go unplug all your cisco and juniper equipment. Then open up your servers and remove all the RAM / hard disks etc that are made in Malaysia / Taiwan etc. Oh wait - check the labels on your clothes. The last Macy's I visited had a whole lot of shirts / trousers / underwear that had US brand names but were all made in Vietnam / China / Bangladesh etc. You might want to strip them off and wear just your own, all american skin. Sheesh. Please take it to Lou Dobbs, or if you have any more rational arguments than these to advocate what looks like a boycott of cisco equipment, please take it to somewhere like Dave Farber's IP .. lots of posters there love to beat this dead horse even more than you do. srs
Re: Cisco moves even more to china.
Hello Suresh, I appreciate and respect your opinion. Please offer me that same respect in kind. Iam aware of the fact of our diverseglobal economy and only think as many in US do we should be fair and equitable to all parties WORLDWIDE. Respectfully yours, JosephSuresh Ramasubramanian [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Joseph [23/09/04 18:53 -0700]: Don't Support OutsourcingI suggest you lead by example. Don't buy from companies that outsource US jobs. Be very vocal andNow please go unplug all your cisco and juniper equipment.Then open up your servers and remove all the RAM / hard disks etc that aremade in Malaysia / Taiwan etc.Oh wait - check the labels on your clothes. The last Macy's I visited had awhole lot of shirts / trousers / underwear that had US brand names but wereall made in Vietnam / China / Bangladesh etc. You might want to strip themoff and wear just your own, all american skin.Sheesh. Please take it to Lou Dobbs, or if you have any more rationalarguments than these to advocate what looks like a boycott of ciscoequipment, please take it to somewhere like Dave Farber's IP .. lots ofposters there love to beat this dead horse even more than you do.srs Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages!
Re: Cisco moves even more to china.
While it is certainly an operational issue if there are no operators left (or on the flip side, too many), I think even that is quite a stretch. Perhaps the economic discussion can be completed elsewhere? Joe Johnson From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Joseph Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2004 9:24 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Suresh Ramasubramanian Subject: Re: Cisco moves even more to china. Hello Suresh, I appreciate and respect your opinion. Please offer me that same respect in kind. Iam aware of the fact of our diverseglobal economy and only think as many in US do we should be fair and equitable to all parties WORLDWIDE. Respectfully yours, Joseph Suresh Ramasubramanian [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Joseph [23/09/04 18:53 -0700]: Don't Support Outsourcing I suggest you lead by example. Don't buy from companies that outsource US jobs. Be very vocal and Now please go unplug all your cisco and juniper equipment. Then open up your servers and remove all the RAM / hard disks etc that are made in Malaysia / Taiwan etc. Oh wait - check the labels on your clothes. The last Macy's I visited had a whole lot of shirts / trousers / underwear that had US brand names but were all made in Vietnam / China / Bangladesh etc. You might want to strip them off and wear just your own, all american skin. Sheesh. Please take it to Lou Dobbs, or if you have any more rational arguments than these to advocate what looks like a boycott of cisco equipment, please take it to somewhere like Dave Farber's IP .. lots of posters there love to beat this dead horse even more than you do. srs Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages!
Re: Cisco moves even more to china.
Support, do not support... In realiity, Cisco today is not Cisco 5 years ago - it rapidly became very common and fat company. One of the reasons - outsourcing (instead of having 10 good engineers here, they use 100 bad engineers in India... /not beause Indians are worst, but because having 100 engineers, you will always have most of them bad). So, let's just wait a little. - Original Message - From: Joe Johnson To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2004 9:15 PM Subject: Re: Cisco moves even more to china. While it is certainly an operational issue if there are no operators left (or on the flip side, too many), I think even that is quite a stretch. Perhaps the economic discussion can be completed elsewhere? Joe Johnson From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of JosephSent: Thursday, September 23, 2004 9:24 PMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Cc: Suresh RamasubramanianSubject: Re: Cisco moves even more to china. Hello Suresh, I appreciate and respect your opinion. Please offer me that same respect in kind. Iam aware of the fact of our diverseglobal economy and only think as many in US do we should be fair and equitable to all parties WORLDWIDE. Respectfully yours, JosephSuresh Ramasubramanian [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Joseph [23/09/04 18:53 -0700]: Don't Support OutsourcingI suggest you lead by example. Don't buy from companies that outsource US jobs. Be very vocal andNow please go unplug all your cisco and juniper equipment.Then open up your servers and remove all the RAM / hard disks etc that aremade in Malaysia / Taiwan etc.Oh wait - check the labels on your clothes. The last Macy's I visited had awhole lot of shirts / trousers / underwear that had US brand names but wereall made in Vietnam / China / Bangladesh etc. You might want to strip themoff and wear just your own, all american skin.Sheesh. Please take it to Lou Dobbs, or if you have any more rationalarguments than these to advocate what looks like a boycott of ciscoequipment, please take it to somewhere like Dave Farber's IP .. lots ofposters there love to beat this dead horse even more than you do.srs Do you Yahoo!?New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages!
