Re: [newbie] Linux for home consumers?
jeanette russo wrote: From: "jeanette russo" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Fw: [newbie] Linux for home consumers? Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 05:25:35 PDT From: "Jeanette Russo" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Fw: [newbie] Linux for home consumers? Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 06:35:04 -0500 - Original Message - From: Bernhard Rosenkraenzer [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, August 16, 1999 8:10 AM Subject: Re: [newbie] Linux for home consumers? On Mon, 16 Aug 1999, Jeanette Russo wrote: The problem is if you look at this list a lot of people start I just bought Linux Mandrake 6.0 and can't get it installed. So I think the install still needs work. This is currently being done. 6.1 will have a completely different installer. Red Hat is also working on a new installer (which probably won't be finished for their 6.1; I expect to see it in 7.0). Also still have problems with dependency's in installing software and I installed the whole distro. Which ones? Ok here is what I am talking about and I have other programs I can't get installed. As I say I installed everything on Mandrake 5.3 yet still everything needs something I don't have and don't know how to get. When Linux can solve these problems its going to be a lot more consumer friendly. OK Bero here is what I am having trouble installing plus anything using the GTK update library since I can't get that installed. And a lot of HTML editors that I want to use are using this library like Bluefish. Jeanette Here are some of them I can' get installed gtk+-1.2.3-2.i, coffeeLinux glibc.tar.gz cooledit-3.11.6-1.i386.rpm curl-5.9.1-1.i386.rpm, gaim-0.8.1-1, and gaim-0.9.7-1, WebMaker-0.8.r-4.i386.rpm. By any chance, are you trying to install RPMs that were meant for either an older version, or a very different distribution (e.g. SuSE)? I have about 6 programs I am trying to install and can't install any of them. Which ones? Where can I download them to see? LLaP bero -- Tired of waiting for Windows 2000? STOP WAITING! http://www.ms-windows-2000.com/ ___ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ___ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com
Re: [[newbie] Linux for home consumers?]
What does it take to write a video card driver that some hotshot unix guru programmer can't come up with? If they can talk the talk, how about trying to walk the walk? I keep hearing about what geniuses inhabit the Unix crowd, how about putting up or shutting up? Original Message Follows On 16-Aug-99 Rick Fry wrote: That 'silly reason' is that like most manufacturers Diamond does not bother making Linux drivers for its products. You're throwing your blame in the wrong direction. -Tom ___ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com
Re: [[newbie] Linux for home consumers?]
Device specs would be nice. But Diamond doesn't release THEM either. Without documentation writing drivers is a tediously painful process of guesswork. Yes, geniuses inhabit the *nix crowd, but they're only geniuses, not psychics or gods. - Theo Rick Fry wrote: What does it take to write a video card driver that some hotshot unix guru programmer can't come up with? If they can talk the talk, how about trying to walk the walk? I keep hearing about what geniuses inhabit the Unix crowd, how about putting up or shutting up? Original Message Follows On 16-Aug-99 Rick Fry wrote: That 'silly reason' is that like most manufacturers Diamond does not bother making Linux drivers for its products. You're throwing your blame in the wrong direction. -Tom ___ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com
Re: [[newbie] Linux for home consumers?]
On Wed, 18 Aug 1999, you wrote: What does it take to write a video card driver that some hotshot unix guru programmer can't come up with? If they can talk the talk, how about trying to walk the walk? I keep hearing about what geniuses inhabit the Unix crowd, how about putting up or shutting up? It takes some knowledge of the low-level programming for that video card, which is proprietary information that Diamond isn't going to release to just anyone. You almost have to "hack" the hardware to find out how it works. Granted there are some real geniuses who can do that, but there is a limited staff available at Xfree86.org who can do that, since they aren't getting paid for the work! John
RE: [[newbie] Linux for home consumers?]
You are really aiming at the wrong target here. Consider two very major things here. 1) These programmers produce these wonderful drivers we do have with no thought of compensation for their time and effort. 2) You can't program a driver for a piece of hardware if the hardware manufacturer claims proprietary interests and won't release the necessary information to make it possible to program for the hardware. I might suggest easing up a little here. For what we pay for Linux, I personally bought the McMillan distribution of Mandrake, we receive a value far greater in the view of support and usability than we would from the makers of the various commercial operating systems. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Rick Fry Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 1999 4:08 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [[newbie] Linux for home consumers?] What does it take to write a video card driver that some hotshot unix guru programmer can't come up with? If they can talk the talk, how about trying to walk the walk? I keep hearing about what geniuses inhabit the Unix crowd, how about putting up or shutting up?
Re: [[newbie] Linux for home consumers?]
Rick Fry wrote: What does it take to write a video card driver that some hotshot unix guru programmer can't come up with? If they can talk the talk, how about trying to walk the walk? I keep hearing about what geniuses inhabit the Unix crowd, how about putting up or shutting up? That's JUST about the rudest thing I've ever heard. Don't like the hardware support? Write some or go elsewhere. Maybe try the few "pay to play" sites that are popping up and pledge some dollars for the work. Acting like the school yard bully will get you absolutely nowhere. Original Message Follows On 16-Aug-99 Rick Fry wrote: That 'silly reason' is that like most manufacturers Diamond does not bother making Linux drivers for its products. You're throwing your blame in the wrong direction. -Tom ___ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com -- Steve Philp Network Administrator Advance Packaging Corp. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [newbie] Linux for home consumers?
At www.thelinuxstore.com they are now taking orders for the PIA a Personal Internet Appliance. It comes preconfigured w/ Red Hat, and is fully functional as a linux box. All for only $199. Brian -Original Message- From: Dan Brown [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: Richard Salts [EMAIL PROTECTED] I wonder. Are there any home users on this list? I'm a home user. I'm also a tech support rep for a major ISP. There's no way I'd recommend Linux to the majority of the people with whom I deal daily. For the most part, it's not a matter of intelligence or competence, it's a matter of mindset. To use Linux effectively, you have to think as a sysadmin at least part of the time, and you have to care about knowing how the computer and OS works. Windoze and (especially) MacOS tend to discourage this--their mindset seems to be that you don't need or want to know what's going on. With Linux, you do need to know, whether you want to or not. If we were shipping out preconfigured Internet-only boxes, I wouldn't have a problem with Linux as the OS--we'd set up all the hardware, software, etc., and it'd be ready to go, out of the box. However, we don't do that.
Re: [[newbie] Linux for home consumers?]
On 16-Aug-99 Rick Fry wrote: It's not the card. It's the monitor. The card is a Diamond A50. The monitor is a Pixie 770 which is a 17" monitor that both of my Windows run at 1280x1024 with 24 bit color. According to the monitor specs, it uses scan frequencies between 30-86Hz Horizontal and 47-150Hz on the vertical side. It does 640x480@85hz, 800x600@75hz, 1024x768@85hz and 1280x1024@65hz. You can stretch to get 1600x1200@65hz. I told Xconfig that it was a monitor that would do 1280x1024@65hz and it said, "No it won't" and went back to the "There's a problem" screen. I was told that neither RedHat or Mandrake adequately support the Diamond card for some silly reason. That 'silly reason' is that like most manufacturers Diamond does not bother making Linux drivers for its products. You're throwing your blame in the wrong direction. -Tom
Re: [newbie] Linux for home consumers?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On this topic i agree with both Dan Brown and Aaron deRozario. Aaron has a point in that Linux is not difficult to learn or has a steep learning curve. It is just that users find it difficult 'cos they still have the Windows mindset. Example...I have a friend with a Mac and she needed my help to install programs ... it took me 20 minutes of hunting for a file manager equivalent in the MacOS before I realised that all i had to do was to pop the floppy in and the folder for the floppy would automagically pop out. I remembered thinking then that this was not intuitive but then after i thought longer it is becuase i was trying to do things the Windows way that created all the wasted time. Now that i use Linux all the time I find that I am suddenly very inefficient in Windows (example open MS-DOS prompt...type ls..'oops'...should be dir...type grep sometext *...ooops no such feature ...etc.) But Dan put it well that many ppl will not be interested in getting under the hood and unless the hardware and software are fixed, configuration for the average joe might discourage him. I have this idea that some coy can make and sell a linux box. Put in netscape and star office and sell it as an office package. Kinda like network computer ... since your employees would not know anything abt linux they are less liable to install their own games run virus etc! Just my 2 ecntsI have had a frustrating day and my mind is jello now .. pls excuse me if u r offended by my rants. - - PGP Public Key : http://jackal.dhis.org/jackal.txt http://pgp5.ai.mit.edu/pks-commands.html ICQ # : 38756924 Big book, big bore. -- Callimachus - - -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: PGPfreeware 5.0i for non-commercial use Charset: noconv iQA/AwUBN7fKfd/tgTsNXrtmEQLwiACgqMS+4JABsB1spJDZQ66mERjoF+0An17C N5zHoAUO6I0Qo2lRjW+jpqxj =hpX4 -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [newbie] Linux for home consumers?
On Mon, 16 Aug 1999, Richard Salts wrote:
Somebody was saying to me that he believed Linux was a good corporate tool
but not a good op system for home use because of it's steep learning curve.
I disagree.
Linux is more powerful, not more difficult, than Windows.
If people are telling you Linux is stuff like
find / -name "*.txt" -exec perl -p -i -e "s/Blah/blah/" {} /dev/null \;
they're ignoring the fact that you probably won't need to know this and
you won't need to understand what it does.
This particular thing is a shell command saying 'find all files ending on
.txt, then search them for occurences of "Blah" and replace them with
"blah"'. Yes, it does look cryptic for a beginner - but a beginner won't
need it and it's something you definitely can't do that easily in Windows
or DOS. And saying Windows is easy because there's a number of things it
just can't do is quite odd ("Notepad is better than WordPerfect because it
doesn't have all the complicated settings I don't understand and won't
ever use!!!").
You can do pretty much everything a home user will need in the graphical
interfaces, KDE and GNOME. They are somewhat different from Windows, but
not more difficult.
LLaP
bero
--
Tired of waiting for Windows 2000?
STOP WAITING! http://www.ms-windows-2000.com/
Re: [newbie] Linux for home consumers?
Hi Richard, I am a linux newbie, but have been in IT for 5 years no and from that back ground I would say Linux is in the stage "coming of age". I believe it is not for the new computer user but is definitely for the average- advanced computer user. Someone with a little computer experience under their belt. With a few more click and pick interfaces, and support for more types of devices eg usb and more divervse device support it will become a Windows killer. If linux developers got the support from hardware and software manufactures that Microsoft does, Linux would have already beaten Microsoft for the most superior OS. These are my thoughts only and do not represent anyone else. Stephan Rex - Original Message - From: Richard Salts [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, August 16, 1999 3:16 PM Subject: [newbie] Linux for home consumers? Somebody was saying to me that he believed Linux was a good corporate tool but not a good op system for home use because of it's steep learning curve. What do the list subscribers here think? Think Linux-Mandrake isn't ready for Prime Time yet? I wonder. Are there any home users on this list? Thanks for any replies, Richard
Re: [[newbie] Linux for home consumers?]
Richard Salts [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Somebody was saying to me that he believed Linux was a good corporate tool but not a good op system for home use because of it's steep learning curve. What do the list subscribers here think? Think Linux-Mandrake isn't ready for Prime Time yet? I wonder. Are there any home users on this list? Thanks for any replies, Richard I've only been using linux since May and it's now just about all I use at home. It's as easy to use as windows. In fact, I foret I'm not in windows, except no BSOD ;o)
Re: [newbie] Linux for home consumers?
I use it at home. I think its almost ready for primetime. Still a problem finding out how to make stuff work. But for the most part I can do everything I can do in Windows on Mandrake. I think its the best Linux at this point and I have tried many others. I had to do a lot of reading and I am still doing a lot. Most people are not going to be willing to put the time into it that I have. Jeanette - Original Message - From: Richard Salts [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, August 16, 1999 12:16 AM Subject: [newbie] Linux for home consumers? Somebody was saying to me that he believed Linux was a good corporate tool but not a good op system for home use because of it's steep learning curve. What do the list subscribers here think? Think Linux-Mandrake isn't ready for Prime Time yet? I wonder. Are there any home users on this list? Thanks for any replies, Richard
Re: [newbie] Linux for home consumers?
The problem is if you look at this list a lot of people start
I just bought Linux Mandrake 6.0 and can't get it installed.
So I think the install still needs work.
Also still have problems with dependency's in installing software
and I installed the whole distro. I still get these cryptic messages
about files I need and it never tells you where to get these files or
what needs to be done to install it. I have about 6 programs I am
trying to install and can't install any of them.
Jeanette
- Original Message -
From: Bernhard Rosenkraenzer [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, August 16, 1999 4:31 AM
Subject: Re: [newbie] Linux for home consumers?
On Mon, 16 Aug 1999, Richard Salts wrote:
Somebody was saying to me that he believed Linux was a good corporate
tool
but not a good op system for home use because of it's steep learning
curve.
I disagree.
Linux is more powerful, not more difficult, than Windows.
If people are telling you Linux is stuff like
find / -name "*.txt" -exec perl -p -i -e "s/Blah/blah/" {} /dev/null \;
they're ignoring the fact that you probably won't need to know this and
you won't need to understand what it does.
This particular thing is a shell command saying 'find all files ending on
.txt, then search them for occurences of "Blah" and replace them with
"blah"'. Yes, it does look cryptic for a beginner - but a beginner won't
need it and it's something you definitely can't do that easily in Windows
or DOS. And saying Windows is easy because there's a number of things it
just can't do is quite odd ("Notepad is better than WordPerfect because it
doesn't have all the complicated settings I don't understand and won't
ever use!!!").
You can do pretty much everything a home user will need in the graphical
interfaces, KDE and GNOME. They are somewhat different from Windows, but
not more difficult.
LLaP
bero
--
Tired of waiting for Windows 2000?
STOP WAITING! http://www.ms-windows-2000.com/
Re: [[newbie] Linux for home consumers?]
Cute. I'm running Mandrake 6.0 with crummy graphics, Windows 98 second edition and Windows 2000 release candidate 1 with 1280 by 1024 by 24 bit graphics and I haven't seen a bsod in months. I'm running on a celeron 400 with 128M of ram and 20G of disk space. Haven't frozen up or crashed in that many months either. In as much as I'm willing to learn Linux/Unix, you guys need to get out of the Windows 95/Windows 3.1 syndrome. Windows has grown up lately and it's obviously passed you by. Ooops, I take that back. The machine has frozen up a couple of times trying to get my version of Red Hat to give me better graphics. Original Message Follows I've only been using linux since May and it's now just about all I use at home. It's as easy to use as windows. In fact, I foret I'm not in windows, except no BSOD ;o) ___ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com
Re: [newbie] Linux for home consumers?
- Original Message - From: Stephan Rex [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, August 16, 1999 11:16 AM Subject: Re: [newbie] Linux for home consumers? Hi Richard, I am a linux newbie, but have been in IT for 5 years no and from that back ground I would say Linux is in the stage "coming of age". I believe it is not for the new computer user but is definitely for the average- advanced computer user. Someone with a little computer experience under their belt. With a few more click and pick interfaces, and support for more types of devices eg usb and more divervse device support it will become a Windows killer. I whole heartedly agree with this. After all, exactly who is 'the average joe' ?? More and more people these days, know plenty enough about computers and OSs to be able to get on with Mandrake. For starters the percentage of people that use a PC at home and are also IT professionals has to be pretty high doesn't it ?? If linux developers got the support from hardware and software manufactures that Microsoft does, Linux would have already beaten Microsoft for the most superior OS. These are my thoughts only and do not represent anyone else. [SNIP] Martin. PS: I am both a corporate and home Linux user - have been for about three years now - still use Windows for both also though !!.
Re: [newbie] Linux for home consumers?
If by "home user" he means "the average user", then he's absolutely right (just scanning this list proves that). I'm sure there are people who happen to be using Linux at home, but tha's not really the point. If Linux was ready for the "home user", they'd already be using it. At 12:16 AM 8/16/99 -0500, you wrote: Somebody was saying to me that he believed Linux was a good corporate tool but not a good op system for home use because of it's steep learning curve. What do the list subscribers here think? Think Linux-Mandrake isn't ready for Prime Time yet? I wonder. Are there any home users on this list? Thanks for any replies, Richard
Re: [[newbie] Linux for home consumers?]
Rick Fry wrote: Original Message Follows I've only been using linux since May and it's now just about all I use at home. It's as easy to use as windows. In fact, I foret I'm not in windows, except no BSOD ;o) ___ I use the BSOD screensaver just to feel more "at home!" John
Re: [newbie] Linux for home consumers?
On Mon, 16 Aug 1999, Jeanette Russo wrote: The problem is if you look at this list a lot of people start I just bought Linux Mandrake 6.0 and can't get it installed. So I think the install still needs work. This is currently being done. 6.1 will have a completely different installer. Red Hat is also working on a new installer (which probably won't be finished for their 6.1; I expect to see it in 7.0). Also still have problems with dependency's in installing software and I installed the whole distro. Which ones? By any chance, are you trying to install RPMs that were meant for either an older version, or a very different distribution (e.g. SuSE)? I have about 6 programs I am trying to install and can't install any of them. Which ones? Where can I download them to see? LLaP bero -- Tired of waiting for Windows 2000? STOP WAITING! http://www.ms-windows-2000.com/
Re: [newbie] Linux for home consumers?
On Mon, 16 Aug 1999 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If by "home user" he means "the average user", then he's absolutely right (just scanning this list proves that). Not quite. Follow some Windows mailing lists and you'll see people have quite some trouble getting that to work, also. Most of the problem reports here are either directly related to installation, or very specific to something most others don't use. If Linux was ready for the "home user", they'd already be using it. And they are. The only reason why Windoze is still around is Microsoft's marketing and the "it is what I've used all the time, so why should I change now" attitude a lot of people have. LLaP bero -- Tired of waiting for Windows 2000? STOP WAITING! http://www.ms-windows-2000.com/
Re: [newbie] Linux for home consumers?
Hello and thanks for your response. So installers are being worked on for both Mandrake and Red Hat? Very good. For what this is worth for anyone, I used the Workstation to install my copy of Red Hat 6.0 and it worked beautifully well. RH 6.0 is still on my D: drive and it works all right as far as I can tell. I just have to learn to use what I have. That's the hard part for me! At 03:10 PM 8/16/99 +0200, you wrote: On Mon, 16 Aug 1999, Jeanette Russo wrote: The problem is if you look at this list a lot of people start I just bought Linux Mandrake 6.0 and can't get it installed. So I think the install still needs work. This is currently being done. 6.1 will have a completely different installer. Red Hat is also working on a new installer (which probably won't be finished for their 6.1; I expect to see it in 7.0). Also still have problems with dependency's in installing software and I installed the whole distro. Which ones? By any chance, are you trying to install RPMs that were meant for either an older version, or a very different distribution (e.g. SuSE)? I have about 6 programs I am trying to install and can't install any of them. Which ones? Where can I download them to see? LLaP bero -- Tired of waiting for Windows 2000? STOP WAITING! http://www.ms-windows-2000.com/ Richard
RE: [[newbie] Linux for home consumers?]
Give me a break. I'm sitting here on a duel Pentium 300 with 300+Mb memory, a 32Mb video card and 11Gigs of hard drive running NT4 and it SUCKS. I need to reboot this useless machine at least once a day if not more because the damned thing keeps locking up. On the other hand at home I've got a AMD k6-2 250 with 32 Mb RAM, 2 Gig HD and a 2 Mb video card running Linux and it ROCKS. I can't wait to convert my others over to Linux and teach my kids how to use it and reformat all of "Uncle Bill's" floppies so I can reuse the disk's (probably use the CD's for coasters or perhaps sell them as tacky earrings). If I ever have the time to sit down and get email setup I'll probably never get my wife off the thing 8-). Now in the spirit of the Linux community if you would share with us your configuration perhaps we could help you with your "crummy graphics" problem ( and we won't even charge you the M$ standard of $150 / hr - 1 hr min) G Regards, You're average Joe. Joseph Gardner -Original Message- From: Rick Fry [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, August 16, 1999 7:54 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [[newbie] Linux for home consumers?] Cute. I'm running Mandrake 6.0 with crummy graphics, Windows 98 second edition and Windows 2000 release candidate 1 with 1280 by 1024 by 24 bit graphics and I haven't seen a bsod in months. I'm running on a celeron 400 with 128M of ram and 20G of disk space. Haven't frozen up or crashed in that many months either. In as much as I'm willing to learn Linux/Unix, you guys need to get out of the Windows 95/Windows 3.1 syndrome. Windows has grown up lately and it's obviously passed you by. Ooops, I take that back. The machine has frozen up a couple of times trying to get my version of Red Hat to give me better graphics. Original Message Follows I've only been using linux since May and it's now just about all I use at home. It's as easy to use as windows. In fact, I foret I'm not in windows, except no BSOD ;o) ___ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com application/ms-tnef
Re: [[newbie] Linux for home consumers?]
Rick Fry wrote: Cute. I'm running Mandrake 6.0 with crummy graphics, Windows 98 second edition and Windows 2000 release candidate 1 with 1280 by 1024 by 24 bit graphics and I haven't seen a bsod in months. I'm running on a celeron 400 with 128M of ram and 20G of disk space. Haven't frozen up or crashed in that many months either. In as much as I'm willing to learn Linux/Unix, you guys need to get out of the Windows 95/Windows 3.1 syndrome. Windows has grown up lately and it's obviously passed you by. Ooops, I take that back. The machine has frozen up a couple of times trying to get my version of Red Hat to give me better graphics. . Visit http://www.msn.com I made the move after 2 years of Hardcore gaming with Win95/98. As soon as I heard that I could play Q1/Q2/Q3 on Linux, I moved over.. I've been running Mandrake now for just over 2 weeks, and I have my Banshee and Soundblaster Live working perfectly, Netscape is stable and I have no need what so ever to use a Microsoft OS any more. Quake III looks better on Linux (Q3 compatible Banshee drivers for Win 95/98/NT are dreadful and unstable) and the steep learning curve is just what I needed to add a little more interest into my life. Unreal Tournament is gonna be released for Linux, Kingpin ports are in beta stage and Tribes 2 is gonna be ported so I figure that by the time Linux really takes off (I reckon another year or two) then I will be a newbie no more! I think now is the perfect time to get into Linux so that when the masses decide to give it a try, we can just all sit back, relax and praise ourselves for taking it up when we did :-) -- | Executive level IT Consultancy/Training | |[EMAIL PROTECTED] | | Trade price Electronic and Networking Equipment | |[EMAIL PROTECTED]|
Re: [newbie] Linux for home consumers?
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: No they aren't. Do you know any people who don't know anything about computers, who don't WANT to know anything about computers, who just want to surf, get email, and do processing, who run Linux? I don't. And if you I don't know any who do, but they _could_ run Linux without a problem. Of course, Netscape's kind of flaky, which doesn't help, but if people were selling preconfigured boxes to do this, Joe average user could handle Linux just as well as Win9x. Even the setup isn't necessarily that bad--Caldera, for example, has a pretty intuitive setup procedure--but it's more of a pain than using it. -- Dan Brown, KE6MKS, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.
RE: [newbie] Linux for home consumers?
On 16-Aug-99 Richard Salts wrote: Somebody was saying to me that he believed Linux was a good corporate tool but not a good op system for home use because of it's steep learning curve. What do the list subscribers here think? Think Linux-Mandrake isn't ready for Prime Time yet? I wonder. Are there any home users on this list? This note is in response to most of what has been said in this thread, and I apologize in advance for my extreme wordiness. :) Sure, I'm a home user. I started using Linux with RedHat 5.2 in February. One of the first things I did was download and compile KDE; that made transitioning to Linux very easy. Even though I was a complete newbie to Linux I was able to get on-line and do whatever I wanted, and immediately cease using Windows for anything other than occasionally playing a couple games. And when I DID boot to Windows for that, I found the slowness and instability to be even more unacceptable than I considered it before. It was like driving an old, slow car that breaks down on a regular basis for so long that you get used to it, then switching to a nice new sports car that never has any problems, and then having to use the old car one day... then it breaks down, and you think "WHY did I EVER put up with this piece of crap?!?!?" That's what using Windows after Linux was like. I eventually stopped using KDE and switched to using smaller, faster window managers (my current favorite is WindowMaker, but I also like XFCE and fvwm2). Once one adjusts to Linux, one realizes that the command line is not so difficult, and that running programs from an xterm instead of a Start Menu is not only just as easy, but faster. I still appreciate KDE for helping me during the transition phase though. I also deleted Win95 from my hard drive about a month ago, and I have not had any desire to reinstall it since then. So the idea that Linux is 'not for the home user' seems very silly to me. At this point I will admit that I am not an 'average' user--I've been using computers since I was 9 years old, they are probably my biggest hobby, and I feel very motivated to learn computer-related subjects. BUT that also puts this question in my mind: If I learned DOS at 9 years old as if it was no big deal (I did not use a GUI until I got a computer preinstalled with Win3.1 when I was 15), and if DOS was the commonly accepted standard operating system that everyone with an IBM-compatible PC used, then WHAT is so hard about Linux? If you're a newbie home computer user, and you look at a computer showing a DOS prompt, and a computer showing Linux running X with KDE, which are you going to pick? And yet, somehow, NOW Linux is considered too difficult for a home user? I don't buy it. The problem isn't that Linux is too hard, it's that most people will simply become as lazy as they can possibly get away with. And modern society is culling people's desire and ability to learn by making it so they don't have to; Windows and Mac OS's are perfect examples of that. In the short run that can easily seem like a good thing--but it forms habits that bleed into other areas of life. When people can't learn how do anything because reading a little instruction manual seems way too inconvenient, that is a big, big, BIG problem! Not just for computer users, but that suggests scary things about the direction society as a whole is going in. I can picture the future now. One day someone will invent the PantsBot, a machine that puts people's pants on them for them. It will be mass produced and almost everyone will buy one, and it will gradually become common practice for everyone to have their PantsBot clothe them every morning. Then one day some people will get a strange idea--putting their pants on themselves! They will, for the sake of saving people money (the PantsBot is expensive and needs to be upgraded whenever a new style of pants comes out--and clothesmakers are paid off by the PantsBot company to make new styles of pants every year so they can all keep making money), and more importantly for the sake of mass social improvement, suggest to people that they put their pants on themselves without the aid of a PantsBot, but by then it will have been so widely used for so long that people will respond, "It seems like putting your pants on yourself would be very inconvenient. I'm not sure if the average pants wearer would be able to do that." I will conclude by mentioning that I think the biggest block to making Linux more widely used by 'average' users is not the fault of Linux NOR the fault of the users. The problem is compatibility of the hardware that's preinstalled in the computers that the users buy, and the fault is with the hardware manufacturers who make nonstandard hardware and only provide drivers for Windows, and with the computer manufacturers who put this hardware into their computers without even asking themselves, "Gee, what if Windows really ISN'T the only OS my customers
RE: [newbie] Linux for home consumers?
I am a home user of Linux (although I am also a computer professional). I am
running Mandrake 6.0 and had absolutely no problems with the installation
(with the exception of getting the proper server for my video card). As a
matter of fact, I had more problems installing Windoze98. ("Plug Play??"
Hah!) Now, I pretty much use Windoze as a game machine for my family. I do
everything else in Linux.
Like it or not, the public at large expects, and probably will not accept
anything other than, an OS like Windoze. Until recently, Linux was unknown
to most average users. That is changing however. I find a lot of people
asking me about it: "What is this Linux thing I keep hearing about?"
I only hope that Linux retains its "hacker" qualities. While I think it does
need to "do Windoze better than Windoze," it also needs to retain it's own
identity.
Rick
Rick Friedman
Salant Corp. - MIS
800-472-8013 x75105
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
-Original Message-
From: Richard Salts [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Monday, August 16, 1999 1:16 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [newbie] Linux for home consumers?
Somebody was saying to me that he believed Linux was a good
corporate tool
but not a good op system for home use because of it's steep learning
curve.
What do the list subscribers here think? Think Linux-Mandrake isn't
ready
for Prime Time yet?
I wonder. Are there any home users on this list?
Thanks for any replies,
Richard
Re: [newbie] Linux for home consumers?
I am a home user The only really big problem with the home user and linux is advertisement... remember "Where do you want to go today?" The first time you saw it was probably on tv. When was the last time you have seen a linux commercial? I never have... Linux doesn't get the advertisement it needs to draw people in because it is a free os, That means no advertisement $$ to get people interested,. It is more of a stumble upon it or see it for free and try it... If it did have more people involved there would be alot more toys and programs for it also, Installation of hardware would be easier because more people would get on hardware makers cases about drivers and easy of use This is only my opinion... But i feel linux is the next generation of mass os evolution. I think the best advertising is unpaid. People who use Linux and are excited about it have the option of "advertising" it on their site by talking about it, offering support for it, providing snazzy screenshots and tips, writing anecdotes, and being just plain enthusiastic (and also providing some good links). It would be really nice if a strong net of Linux advertising developed on the Internet. Maybe some nice rich dude (NOT thinking of Bill!) will contribute some cash that can be used for paid banner ads, magazine spots, or even TV time. Then again, I often feel that TV ads cheapen a product... I'd HATE to see a cheesy Linux ad on TV. Andy Goth [EMAIL PROTECTED] zap.to/andygoth ICQ: 35256413 ,.-"``"-.,__,.-"``"-.,__,.-"``"-.,__,.-"``"-.,__,.-"``"-.,__,.-"``"-.,_ "Success is a disease; it can make smart people think they can't lose." -- Bill Gates, on why IBM is going down (as seen in Pirates of Silicon Valley) ,.-"``"-.,__,.-"``"-.,__,.-"``"-.,__,.-"``"-.,__,.-"``"-.,__,.-"``"-.,_ "Down with big brother!" -- George Orwell
Re: [newbie] Linux for home consumers?
I'm a home user.. I use Mandrake for everything: school work, web surfing, image manipulation, email, ICQ, IRC... nothing better tha a stable platform as linux. El dom, 15 ago 1999, escribiste: Somebody was saying to me that he believed Linux was a good corporate tool but not a good op system for home use because of it's steep learning curve. What do the list subscribers here think? Think Linux-Mandrake isn't ready for Prime Time yet? I wonder. Are there any home users on this list? Thanks for any replies, Richard
Re: [newbie] Linux for home consumers?
Altough there's no advertising, there are thousands of people moving into Linux. I give help to newbies in an IRC channel, and I see some 10 guys getting rid of windows every day. or just giving Linux a try. El lun, 16 ago 1999, escribiste: I am a home user The only really big problem with the home user and linux is advertisement... remember "Where do you want to go today?" The first time you saw it was probably on tv. When was the last time you have seen a linux commercial? I never have... Linux doesn't get the advertisement it needs to draw people in because it is a free os, That means no advertisement $$ to get people interested,. It is more of a stumble upon it or see it for free and try it... If it did have more people involved there would be alot more toys and programs for it also, Installation of hardware would be easier because more people would get on hardware makers cases about drivers and easy of use This is only my opinion... But i feel linux is the next generation of mass os evolution. - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, August 16, 1999 5:55 AM Subject: Re: [newbie] Linux for home consumers? If by "home user" he means "the average user", then he's absolutely right (just scanning this list proves that). I'm sure there are people who happen to be using Linux at home, but tha's not really the point. If Linux was ready for the "home user", they'd already be using it. At 12:16 AM 8/16/99 -0500, you wrote: Somebody was saying to me that he believed Linux was a good corporate tool but not a good op system for home use because of it's steep learning curve. What do the list subscribers here think? Think Linux-Mandrake isn't ready for Prime Time yet? I wonder. Are there any home users on this list? Thanks for any replies, Richard
[newbie] Linux for home consumers?
Somebody was saying to me that he believed Linux was a good corporate tool but not a good op system for home use because of it's steep learning curve. What do the list subscribers here think? Think Linux-Mandrake isn't ready for Prime Time yet? I wonder. Are there any home users on this list? Thanks for any replies, Richard
Re: [newbie] Linux for home consumers?
From: Richard Salts [EMAIL PROTECTED] I wonder. Are there any home users on this list? I'm a home user. I'm also a tech support rep for a major ISP. There's no way I'd recommend Linux to the majority of the people with whom I deal daily. For the most part, it's not a matter of intelligence or competence, it's a matter of mindset. To use Linux effectively, you have to think as a sysadmin at least part of the time, and you have to care about knowing how the computer and OS works. Windoze and (especially) MacOS tend to discourage this--their mindset seems to be that you don't need or want to know what's going on. With Linux, you do need to know, whether you want to or not. If we were shipping out preconfigured Internet-only boxes, I wouldn't have a problem with Linux as the OS--we'd set up all the hardware, software, etc., and it'd be ready to go, out of the box. However, we don't do that.
Re: [newbie] Linux for home consumers?
I am also a home user, although I am having a few problems, especially with my sound card (Acer FX-3D -- AD1816 which is supposed to be supported, but can't get it to work) and my mouse (don't think my Matsonic 3 button mouse on COM 1, configured as Generic 3 button mouse with 3 button simulation works as a 3 button mouse) works. I did use UNIX (I especially liked SGI's IRIX - hated Sun's Solaris) before I retired. It took 18 months to find a version of LINUX which would work with my video card (Mandrake 6.0). Dan Brown wrote: From: Richard Salts [EMAIL PROTECTED]> > I wonder. Are there any home users on this list? I'm a home user. I'm also a tech support rep for a major ISP. There's no way I'd recommend Linux to the majority of the people with whom I deal daily. For the most part, it's not a matter of intelligence or competence, it's a matter of mindset. To use Linux effectively, you have to think as a sysadmin at least part of the time, and you have to care about knowing how the computer and OS works. Windoze and (especially) MacOS tend to discourage this--their mindset seems to be that you don't need or want to know what's going on. With Linux, you do need to know, whether you want to or not. If we were shipping out preconfigured Internet-only boxes, I wouldn't have a problem with Linux as the OS--we'd set up all the hardware, software, etc., and it'd be ready to go, out of the box. However, we don't do that. -- Murray and Diane Strome 1275 Burnside Road West VICTORIA BC V8Z 1P3 Canada Phone: (250) 479-6448 Fax: (250) 727-3427
Re: [newbie] Linux for home consumers?
i am a music composition and electronic music grad student. i got into linux because of the stereotypical MS windows hatred. i think it is great, but i wouldnt recommend it to the average joe. i worked for flashnet tech support for a while, and i definately wouldnt recommend it to most of the users calling up with computer trouble. now, if only i could get my soundcard to work :P
RE: [newbie] Linux for home consumers?
I am a home user and I find Mandrake perfect. I don't think the learning curve is any steeper than for any other OS. The problem most people find when trying Linux is that it doesn't do things the Windows way. This doesn't necessarily make Linux harder to use it is just different to use and it is the process of learning to do things again that some have described as a 'learning curve'. Most commentators have used Windows and have forgotton the length of time it took to learn to do basic things in Win9x. My mother, an avid user of Win95 for three years still calls me regularly about 'simple things' she hasn't learnt yet or has forgotton. Mandrake has done an excellent job in blending Linux and KDE. Although I do write a few very simple shell scripts to execute programs, the drag and drop features in Mandrake (dragging programs onto the panel) means that you rarely ever need to use the command line, even for executing programs. As for its suitability for home use. Most home users will use a computer for email, internet, word processing and entertainment. Email and Internet are not a problem. Kppp is a great dial in utility (much easier than setting up internet using Win95) the news and email clients more than adequate for home use. The File Browser works fine as a web browser a lot of the time and you always have Netscape if you need a more powerful browser. For word processing the obvious choice is the freely available version of Corel WordPerfect 8. Now I know it is not flawless (the on screen presentation is very dubious), however it is more than adequate for home use. There is of course Star Office, though I have never tried it myself. Applix is another alternative if you want to shell out the cash and I've found it very good. For Entertainment you obviously do not have teh same variety as you have with Windows. As far as games go I have Quake 2 and Civilisation - Call to Power, both of which work extrememly well (a few quirks with Quake but I'm working on that). OF course I never get to use the computer since my girlfriend got her hands on Civ CTP. All in all this combination meets all my home needs more than adequately. In addition Linux teaches you about things. I've learnt more about how networking works, what protocols are, what compiling is etc than I ever did using Windows. Given Mandrake is so cheap it's well worth a punt. -Original Message- From: Richard Salts [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, 16 August 1999 13:16 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [newbie] Linux for home consumers? Somebody was saying to me that he believed Linux was a good corporate tool but not a good op system for home use because of it's steep learning curve. What do the list subscribers here think? Think Linux-Mandrake isn't ready for Prime Time yet? I wonder. Are there any home users on this list? Thanks for any replies, Richard
