Re: [PROPOSAL] Initiate a Contest for Branding of 4.0

[Shane Curcuru]

On 10/26/2012 4:36 AM, Graham Lauder wrote:
...

The proposal therefore is to initiate a contest to create this new
branding, this would have multiple benefits in terms of community outreach,
marketing and raising brand awareness.

...

Several Apache projects have run logo contests in the past; some were 
quite successful both with wide participation and good designs to come 
out of them.  As noted in many of the comments on this thread, there are 
a lot of details to work out, especially if the PMC is looking for a 
whole "branding" package of logos, icons, colors, etc.


- Be clear in your request for submissions.  Spend the time to go over 
the whole package you plan to put out, since it will get a lot of 
interest.  Having a good experience for submitters with clear guidelines 
on what parts of branding are being sought, and if designs are expected 
to be used as-is, or if designs may be modified once selected is important.


- I'd suggest having a preliminary voting round (primarily community 
based), and then a separate runoff round from the top X voted designs 
(primarily committer based, with the PMC making final decision).  With a 
large number of original submissions, it's really hard to get a good 
sense of support for each one.  Runoffs from the top designs are much 
simpler, plus the PMC can use the runoff selection process to promote or 
restrict designs the PMC has specific thoughts on.


The various points on this thread about the community here on ooo-dev@ 
versus the actual end-user community are spot on as well.  Re-branding a 
product with this many millions of end users is important to do 
carefully and consistently.


- From the legal standpoint, we will likely need the winning designer to 
donate all trademark rights in the design(s) to the ASF explicitly. 
Given that we may register new trademarks about AOO, we will need to be 
clear on this point.  But the details can be handled later, and should 
not be difficult, so don't let that get in the way of running the contest!


- Shane

Re: Why a mailing list is superior to any web-based "forum"

[Shane Curcuru]

In a community-driven project, whichever tool is easier for the people 
contributing the work to use is the superior tool.  But this is an [OT] 
thread since the AOO *development* community is already decided that 
ooo-dev@ is it's primary home (although it will shortly move to 
@openoffice.apache.org!).


Luckily, AOO has both a set of mailing lists and a rich set of forums, 
so we get the best of both worlds!


For those interested in following or linking to past mailing threads on 
any ASF mailing list, I also recommend MarkMail like Joe does in this 
thread, which has an awesome search interface:


  http://apache.markmail.org/

- Shane

Re: Estimating contributors by looking at wiki accounts?

[Shane Curcuru]

+1 all around.  This sounds like it would be more interesting on the 
ooo-marketing@ list, since it's more about telling the story of "who 
helps make AOO".  With a project with as many different kinds of end 
users as AOO has, accurate stats like these would be good, if you want 
to go generate them.  Plus, I like numbers. 8-)


The most useful thing about generating them would be showing exactly how 
they're generated, with code (if any), and being very clear - as you 
suggest - at what the specific numbers mean.  Openness in the way you 
generate the details is key to ensuring people know exactly what you're 
measuring.


- Shane

P.S. Is there already a chart of auto-upgrade "downloads" anywhere? 
Just curious.


On 10/19/2012 11:38 AM, jan iversen wrote:

I think your idea of filtering out account that actually contributed is a
wise thing, especially because our product has many end-users that want to
be informed but do not contribute.

As a developer I do not care, but thinking of some of the ongoing
discussions in other forums (like: nearly nobody contributes to AOO anymore
because Apache rules makes it far to difficult and restrictive), makes it
worth while to publish a figure on our web, especially a figure saying e.g.
"during the last year we had xxx active contributors and xx active
committers".

jan.


On 19 October 2012 17:28, Rob Weir  wrote:


I recently saw another open source project claim that they had over
3000 contributors.  They derived this estimate by looking at the
number of user accounts they had in their wiki.

That is quite clever, I thought.  Since we use the same wiki software,
I thought I'd check this metric for us.  Our wiki says we have over
58,000 user accounts.

I know we're doing well, but would it really make sense to claim that
we have over 58,000 contributors?  I don't think so.

I suppose we could look only at accounts where the person has actually
contributed edits, or even recent edits. (MediaWiki is a well-known
target of registration spam).  Although the other project did not seem
to filter out inactive or unused accounts, I think the metrics are
meaningless unless we do that.

What do you think?  Or do we even care?

-Rob

Re: Marketing events

[Shane Curcuru]

This thread is a great source of energy - and I'd love to see plenty of 
people following it... over on ooo-marketing@, as several have suggested!


Please - if you're interested in marketing, outreach, consulting, or 
anything like that around AOO, send mail to 
ooo-marketing-subscr...@incubator.apache.org and/or read the archives at 
my favorite mail archive, http://ooo-marketing.markmail.org


- Shane (moving over there now)

On 10/9/2012 12:36 PM, Ian Lynch wrote:

OOo had a substantial community marketing project with community members
attending key events. How do we improve on that now with AOO?

Re: Policy question: How to link to books about OpenOffice?

[Shane Curcuru]

On 10/2/2012 11:42 AM, Rob Weir wrote:

On our support website, at the bottom, we have a list of
OpenOffice-related books:

http://www.openoffice.org/support/

As you see, we have links to 3rd party pages for purchasing the books,
usually Amazon or Lulu.

I'm in the process of updating this page, as part of adding a list of
consultants, and it occurred to me that we should probably think about
how Shane's draft linking policy applies to books:

http://www.apache.org/foundation/marks/linking


Good question: the above policy doesn't directly address the question of 
listing pages for books; i.e. actual publishers.  Even if many people 
simply get the free PDF, historical branding questions have tended to be 
much simpler relating to what we traditionally think of as publishers or 
authors rather than "Consultants" of any kind.


In particular, traditional publishers tend to be *far* better at 
respecting branding and licensing issues, both up front and if we ever 
have to ask them for changes.


AOO is the first project to have a large enough ecosystem that I should 
work with trademarks@ to update the policy.  Having AOO think through 
how you might present books would be helpful.




One way to think of it is to treat the publisher or author (for
self-published books) as the "consultant" in the terms of the policy.
They are the ones providing the service, via their book.  So we would
allow linking to the author's website or the publisher's website which
describes the book.  But we would not link to Amazon, since they are a
retailer, not the author or the publisher.


In principle I certainly like providing a link to the author or 
publisher's actual homepage for the book.  But I'd tend to allow 
projects to decide: in some cases, there may not be a book homepage, and 
in some cases, it might be worth simply pointing to one (or more) useful 
places to directly order the book.  So including an Amazon or B&N link 
is fine if you want to do that.  Note: it would not be a good idea to 
use one of the "affiliate" links, unless it's one controlled by the PMC 
(i.e. so the affiliate referrals aren't going to some third party).




Otherwise, same criteria as consultants -- factual list, respect
trademark, impartial,  rel="nofollow", etc.


Yup.  In AOO's case, I'd think this would be a separate page, since 
there's plenty of material to list, and users would tend to think of 
"find a book to read" differently than "hire a consultant to help". 
Also, book listings could be persistent (presuming the URL is still 
available, as Andrea notes.




Does this make sense?

-Rob


- Shane

Re: Call for comments: Webpage for Listing OpenOffice Consultants

[Shane Curcuru]

One specific comment:

On 9/27/2012 5:02 PM, Louis Suárez-Potts wrote:
...snip...

My solution was to ask the NLCs for assistance here and to place a
rule regarding advertising. The rule I drafted was never formally
enacted but a compromise was put into effect and came down to no ads.
I had argued for ads but distinguished from the site proper, and that
location was, when in the OOo domain, at the support page,
support.openoffice.

...snip...

We do not host third party advertisements on any *.apache.org domain.  I 
don't personally see that changing for openoffice.org.


The ASF's mission is to provide software for the public good, so hosting 
"advertisements" is not something we do.


We do recognize the importance of the ecosystem, in that a healthy (and 
often commercial) group of organizations using our software will tend to 
bring more contributors to our projects.  So it is a good thing to host 
a factual "Organizations providing AOO related services" or such page - 
which it sounds like you have a great start on rebooting here.


- Shane

Re: Call for comments: Webpage for Listing OpenOffice Consultants

[Shane Curcuru]

On 9/26/2012 4:58 PM, Rob Weir wrote:

Another one of those "larger ecosystem" things I'll be pushing on.

If you recall the legacy OpenOffice.org project had a webpage that
listed various consultants who provided services for OpenOffice.  We
took it down because it was very out of date and we didn't have time
(at that time) to figure out the policy implications and update the
content.  Well guess what?  I have time now.

> A draft of a proposed approach is on the wiki here:
https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Draft+--+Apache+OpenOffice+Consultants+Directory
<

...

I'd suggest folks read the draft-but-pretty-close document about Apache 
Project Corporate Recognition Best Practices here when thinking about 
how AOO wants to organize web pages like this:


  http://www.apache.org/foundation/marks/linking

This is something that we haven't necessarily had a clearly written 
policy for all projects in the past.  In fact, within basic trademark 
and "projects must be independent" guidelines, there's a lot of room for 
different projects to approach this (or not bother with it) in different 
ways.


We've tried to lay out the basic issues in the page above, although I 
know there are several areas that need better explanations, or that 
we're missing some important point.


I think the key things are:

- Respect Apache marks fully (both by our projects, and others)

- Maintain the ASF's public charity mission; avoid appearances of 
endorsement or affiliation


- Ensure the project is being managed independently, *and* that 
independence is clear in public perception


- Be factual, relevant, fair, and consistent in how listings are 
done/removed/etc.


Oh, and automating (yay XSLT!) pages like this will be a big win for 
maintenance.


- Shane

Re: Updating Committers on Project Status Page (was RE: New committer: Chen ZuoJun)

[Shane Curcuru]

On 9/24/2012 7:34 AM, Rob Weir wrote:
...snip...

Is there any easy way to track PMC membership?  Maybe that be derived
from the authz for the eventual /pmc/openoffice tree?Eventually we
want an easy way to generate a roster that lists committers but also
identifies PMC members.


TLPs have a slightly different way to track PMC members, specified here:

  http://www.apache.org/dev/pmc.html#newpmc

PMC membership is mostly an organizational thing, so I'm not sure 
there's a simple automated way to detect it.  However committers can 
view some of the great tools at whimsy, and I'd bet someone could find 
the code there that auto-parses both committer and PMC lists, and 
repurpose it to create an AOO specific page that could be public:


  https://whimsy.apache.org/

There's a look under the hood link that takes you to the source in the 
infra SVN tree.


- Shane

Re: What is a good Project Management Committee member?

[Shane Curcuru]

This is a great discussion.  Info for the newly arrived: currently, the 
AOO podling is governed by the Podling Project Management Committee 
(PPMC) members - voting on releases, new committers, etc.  For the 
podling to "graduate" and become a top level project (TLP), the podling 
needs to submit a graduation proposal, including a future list of 
Project Management Committee (PMC) members, including a Chair of the 
PMC, to the Incubator PMC.  Once the Incubator PMC votes on it, the 
proposal goes to the Board of Directors of the ASF for a final vote to 
formally create AOO as a project of the ASF.

  https://incubator.apache.org/guides/graduation.html#process

On 9/5/2012 3:19 PM, Jürgen Schmidt wrote:

On 9/5/12 11:32 AM, Ian Lynch wrote:

On 5 September 2012 09:40, Regina Henschel  wrote:

Hi all,

some time ago we expressed, that we think the project is ready to graduate.
In the process of graduating, a proposal for a Project Management Committee
(PMC) will be brought to the Apache Board. Although discussion about
individual persons will not be done public, it is important to get a shared
conviction about the criteria for our PMC members.

You find information about project management and the role of the PMC in
http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html


 From the Apache governance point of view, I'd recommend these two 
pages which also define and describe (in the larger context of a PMC) 
the basic duties of PMC members and PMC chairs:


  http://www.apache.org/dev/pmc.html#chair
  http://www.apache.org/foundation/governance/pmcs.html

Being a PMC member is about having the ability to directly help govern 
the project direction, primarily by voting on releases, and proposing 
and voting on new committers or PMC members.




Each TLP's PMC (but not not podlings/PPMCs) also has a Chair of the 
committee - a single individual who is also appointed as the Vice 
President of the project by a board resolution.  Conceptually, there are 
two kinds of duties the chair needs to perform:


- The first is paperwork: the chair is the person tasked with ensuring 
that various ASF organizational paperwork is completed accurately and in 
a timely manner: PMC roster changes, new committer activations, and 
board reports.  In some cases, the chair or a specific designee must 
actually do the duties (requesting ACKs, etc.).  In other cases - like 
writing a board report - the PMC as a whole often helps or does the 
work, although it should be the chair that should actually check the 
report into the board agenda.


- The second is to serve as the representative of the project to the 
board, and vice-versa.  This is why PMC chairs are officers of the 
corporation: they are directly responsible to the board both to make 
accurate reports on what the project is doing to the board (via 
quarterly reports), as well as taking feedback from the board back to 
the project to consider and act on.  Thus, PMC chairs are required to 
subscribe to the board@ mailing list (which is only open to Members and 
officers).




Note that operationally, PMC chairs typically act the same as any other 
PMC member: they don't have other special privileges, they only get one 
vote, and in general project governance decisions are expected to be 
made by the PMC as a whole.  From the Apache point of view, the current 
employment of a chair is not an issue; however the podling should be 
aware that the external *perception* of the selection of the chair for a 
project like AOO is something to keep in the back of your mind.



...snip excellent lists of traits of a good PMC member...

I'd urge everyone to read through Jurgen's excellent ideas in the 
previous email on this thread.While no-one should assume that being 
a PMC member is a full-time job, he does have some really good questions 
for people to think about.



... snip Jurgen's excellent ideas...


And the end of this email I want to say that from my point of view
"roles" are not so important. We are all equal here in the project and I
think we all have the same goal. We want make AOO even more successful
and we want a community where it is fun to be part of it and where
anybody can drive things forward by simply doing it aligned with the
overall project rules and guidelines.


Indeed - roles should not be important in how actual project work gets 
done the majority of the time.  Apache projects rely on many different 
people volunteering their time and skills freely to donate code, ideas, 
documentation, tests, and all sorts of other things to our projects. 
Anyone should feel welcome to propose ideas and send patches to our 
code, websites, and policies.  So whether someone is on the final PMC 
after graduation or not doesn't affect the great majority of things any 
volunteer here can do.


- Shane

P.S. Thanks Regina et al for taking this to ooo-dev@!

Re: What is a PMC Chair?

[Shane Curcuru]

On 2012-05-31 10:31 AM, Yong Lin Ma wrote:

How often a new chair will be selected? Yearly or depends on ...


Up to the project.

Many TLPs have bylaws that state they'll have an annual election, 
although in many cases this is ignored (or forgotten, more likely), and 
PMC chairs sit for... however long the project wants them.  In many 
cases, the existing chair either gets overloaded (typically with 
real-life changes outside the project) or simply wants to give someone 
else a chance, and they call for nominations themselves.


It's really up to the PMC to decide this, and then submit resolutions to 
the board (which are required to change chairs).  Presuming the PMC is 
acting in a healthy manner, the board simply passes the resolution at 
the next meeting.


For a project like AOO, I personally think it would be valuable to have 
an expectation of an annual nomination/vote process for the chair.


- Shane



On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 9:56 PM, Ross Gardler
  wrote:

Since discussion has turned to graduation I'd like to invite people to
consider who they would like to have as PMC chair. The first part of
this is understanding what the role of a PMC chair is.

First and foremost the position of chair does not bring any additional
authority over the project, at least not in normal circumstances. It
is true that in the event of a deadlock the chair has a casting vote,
however I have never seen this happen. In reality the chair is just
the same as any other PMC member except that they are expected to do a
certain amount of "paperwork" for the PMC and, more importantly, they
are a community facilitator. You can find a full description of the
responsibilities at [1]. In summary they are:

  - Subscribe to and monitor board@ (and board meeting minutes) and
infrastructure@ at lists, ensuring the community takes any necessary
actions

  - Submit quarterly reports

  - Maintain PMC membership records

  - Ensure everyones voice is heard

Before calling for nominations (and people can self-nominate if they
so desire) I would like to take a few days to allow people to ask any
questions about the role and the type of individual that is best
suited to be a chair.

Ross

[1] http://www.apache.org/dev/pmc.html#chair






--
Ross Gardler (@rgardler)
Programme Leader (Open Development)
OpenDirective http://opendirective.com

Re: What is a PMC Chair?

[Shane Curcuru]

Excellent points from the project perspective.  Note that PMC chairs are 
also made officers - Vice Presidents - of the ASF.


From the larger organizational perspective, the most important duty of 
a PMC chair is ensuring that:


- The project's status is accurately reported to the board.

- Any feedback or questions from the board are communicated to the PMC 
and an answer (if required) is provided back to the board in a timely 
manner.


For those interested in the subject of governance at the ASF, I 
recommend these pages (which while listed as DRAFT are really just about 
done already):


  http://www.apache.org/foundation/governance/
  http://www.apache.org/foundation/governance/orgchart.html

- Shane

On 2012-05-31 9:56 AM, Ross Gardler wrote:

Since discussion has turned to graduation I'd like to invite people to
consider who they would like to have as PMC chair. The first part of
this is understanding what the role of a PMC chair is.

First and foremost the position of chair does not bring any additional
authority over the project, at least not in normal circumstances. It
is true that in the event of a deadlock the chair has a casting vote,
however I have never seen this happen. In reality the chair is just
the same as any other PMC member except that they are expected to do a
certain amount of "paperwork" for the PMC and, more importantly, they
are a community facilitator. You can find a full description of the
responsibilities at [1]. In summary they are:

   - Subscribe to and monitor board@ (and board meeting minutes) and
infrastructure@ at lists, ensuring the community takes any necessary
actions

   - Submit quarterly reports

   - Maintain PMC membership records

   - Ensure everyones voice is heard

Before calling for nominations (and people can self-nominate if they
so desire) I would like to take a few days to allow people to ask any
questions about the role and the type of individual that is best
suited to be a chair.

Ross

[1] http://www.apache.org/dev/pmc.html#chair

Re: [PROPOSAL] Starting the graduation process

[Shane Curcuru]

On 2012-05-29 6:45 PM, Rob Weir wrote:

On Tue, May 29, 2012 at 6:29 PM, Kay Schenk  wrote:

On Mon, May 28, 2012 at 11:10 AM, Rob Weir  wrote:

...


There is a LOT to go through here. I was OK up until the "Prepare a
Charter" and then I'm confused. I see the minutes of board actions but not
actual charters(?) OK, I may have missed the essence...I'll move on.



I think Charter == Board Resolution.

So we need something according to this template:

https://svn.apache.org/repos/private/committers/board/templates/podling-tlp-resolution.txt

...

The template is simple, and comes after the graduation vote.  But read 
the third to last para thereof.


It would be instructive to search "apache project bylaws" to see 
examples.  While I'm pretty sure there are some projects that have never 
actually written down bylaws (they really should), with a project the 
size of AOO it would be useful to have at least a sketch of how the 
project plans to govern itself written down.


- Shane

Re: [PROPOSAL] "Get it here" community download promotion program

[Shane Curcuru]

+1 on the general plan.  Allowing broad use of logo(s) that point to 
AOO, but is clearly distinct from the actual AOO product logo(s) is a 
great idea.


On 2012-05-28 2:16 PM, Rob Weir wrote:

On Sun, May 13, 2012 at 10:45 AM, Rob Weir  wrote:

We get regular requests from individuals and companies that want to
add a link to the AOO download, and to use the logo with it.  These
range from websites of individual users, to websites that aggregate
download links for many open source projects.

Currently, requesting and receiving such permission requires a request
to the PMC, approval and then additional approval by the Apache VP
Branding.



I don't think we received any feedback from Trademarks@ on this proposal.

-Rob


I'd like to propose a streamlined approach where we can give blanket
permission, without an additional request, for using a specific logo
(the one that Drew designed) for a specific download situation.  If
there are no objections from the PMC, and we get a +1 from
Trademarks@, I'll write this up on the website.

=Use of the Apache OpenOffice Download Promotion Logo=

Anyone, without additional permission from this project, may use the
following logo subject to the following conditions:

The logo:  
https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/download/attachments/27834483/get-aoo-300x100-cf.png?version=1&modificationDate=1331970198000

[NB. We should move this to a more memorable location]


Yes, please; have it checked into SVN and on the main site since that's 
a location that all projects clearly monitor for changes and use for 
permanent storage.




Conditions:

1. The logo may not be modified except to resize it.  If translations
of the "Get it here!" text are required, send a request to the ooo-dev
list and we can provide a translated version for you.


Resizing should keep the aspect ratio.  I'm less concerned (although you 
may want to specify) about demanding minimum and maximum pixel sizes.  8-)


Also, if folks wanted to submit and get PPMC approval of a couple of 
alternate versions (perhaps a wide banner-like one, and a square one) 
that would be useful.  This is up to the project, but feel free to 
create other similar-ish logos that third parties can use under the same 
(or similar) guidelines)




2. The image must be linked to one of:

a) the http://www.openoffice.org webpage
b) one of the official Native Language pages at openoffice.org, e.g.,
http://de.openoffice.org


Provide another example, so it's clear what the pattern is.


c) the download page for Apache OpenOffice:
http://download.openoffice.org or
http://www.openoffice.org/download/other.html

3. The logo must not link to a specific download file or mirror.  This
causes problems with load balancing and fallbacks and may prevent
users from getting the latest version of OpenOffice.


Yes, this is important, both for our project purposes, as well as 
mirroring purposes.  You might want to emphasize (just for those who 
have their own agenda in mind) that this logo cannot point to any other 
sites besides the official download/homepages of the project.  (I.e. I 
want it to be crystal clear that using this to point to someone else's 
distribution site is an explicit violation, and will be dealt with).




4. Any use Apache-owned logos beyond the above is not covered by this
program an must be explicitly requested from the ASF.



Would it useful to ask third parties to email the URL to where they have 
posted this logo to the ooo-marketing@ list?  That way, we have a sense 
of (most of) the places people are using this, and can spot check the 
uses as we have time.  No explicit approval required, just sending the 
email is sufficient.  But that's a project decision.


- Shane

Re: [WWW] What to do with OOo related domains?

[Shane Curcuru]

On 2012-05-25 9:37 PM, Louis Suárez-Potts wrote:


On 2012-05-25, at 20:34 , Albino Biasutti Neto wrote:


Hi.

2012/5/25 Louis Suárez-Potts




On 2012-05-23, at 12:21 , Andrew Rist wrote:


As part of the transfer of the web properties of OOo to the ASF, the set

of related domains has also been offered to ASF.

We (PPMC) need to decide what we want to do with the related domains.

There are three obvious options available to us:


* Ignore and let the domains expire
* Continue to register to block squatting, but do no more
* Continue to register and forward to oo.o



As I have mentioned more than once, I seem to own openoffice.ca and would
be willing to contribute it (or whatever one does) to AOO. In general,
historically we have approached the owners of such sites and asked them to
work with the community.




If the PPMC is interested in keeping that domain, then please do work 
with infra to get it transferred.  That would be great.



+1

The better option.

There are many alternatives. I don't like very much and confuse me.





Likewise. I prefer very simple and when possible friendly solutions.

Only if the rose of friendship is crushed should we show our thorns. But
in general what I would rather have is that for all similar to AOO
domains a) pointing to AOO proper, and if needed, the NL projects, and
b) hosting, as mirrors, code, binaries, documents, if that is desired.


There is a third point. One reason I tacitly enabled and even
silently

promoted the development of these satellites was to promote the global
ecosystems that implicitly support OO by providing support, etc. Thus,
I'd be in favour of proposing a model where a domain that reflects
"openoffice" and is used in behalf of the wider community, be promoted.
The only things to stipulate would be, I imagine, that any binaries or
code offered as representing or identical to AOO *be* such; and that any
representations of or on behalf of AOO be in keeping with Apache's
ethos. That said, should it be the case then, that there is no need for
such satellites and that they only serve to confuse, then, of course, we
simply say, no—to this proposal, to the satellites, unless there is a
good reason for them.


Yes - a robust ecosystem is important for the long-term health and 
growth of AOO or any Apache project.  However we need to be clear on 
branding guidelines, and ensure that there's a clear separation between 
anyone representing themselves as "official" AOO things, versus everyone 
else.


*Only* PPMC-controlled sites or activities should be using our full 
branding and call themselves "official" or other similar wording. 
Everyone else is welcome to talk about our brands and products, and 
indeed talk about how amazing/awesome/whatever support/addons/whatever 
they make on top of our products.  But these other domains and groups 
should *not* be presenting themselves as part of the AOO project or part 
of the ASF in any way.


In the end, I think a lot of these initiatives can continue in a 
productive way - although some of the subtleties of how they brand 
themselves may need to change compared to how Sun allowed them to operate.


- Shane



But I think as long as the freedom described above is not confusing

and does not lead to deception, that it will only actually help the
expansion of the communities.


We do need robust ecosystems.
Louis




Albino

Re: [WWW] What to do with OOo related domains?

[Shane Curcuru]

On 2012-05-26 9:23 AM, Rob Weir wrote:

On Fri, May 25, 2012 at 10:38 PM, Fernando Cassia  wrote:

On Fri, May 25, 2012 at 9:48 PM, Rob Weir  wrote:


Of course, the easy decision is simply to say "yes" to everything.
But unless the ASF gets free registrations, this is a cost that will
need to be handled on an ongoing basis.



Suppose we're speaking about 10 domains, I don't think $100 /year is going
to break the ASF's coffers, or does it?.

http://www.maddogdomains.com/?isc=mddgdic04&gclid=CMH82K_gnLACFQKCnQodP1NCYA
.com $8.17/yr
.org  $7/yr



I count 28 domains on Andrew's list.

The 28 by themselves is not a huge expense.  I just want us to
consider whether this actually accomplishing anything.  For example,
I'd hate to see us expand this strategy to other NL's or other
permutations of domain names without really understanding how the
"game" is played today.  With the expansion of TLD's, the game seems
to be getting domains like openoffice.fm and then using Twitter and
Google+ to spam advertisements, or to use Google or Bing sponsored
search ads to drive traffic to the fake website.


Don't worry particularly about cost.  If there's a good reason, and an 
agreement within the PPMC for the project to request it, we should be 
able to take care of it.


Personally, I support continuing any existing domains, simply because 
there may well be existing links or traffic to them already which we 
don't want to fall into spammer's hands.


I don't see the need to go grab a whole bunch of new names though, 
unless there's specific evidence that shows there's value in it.  There 
are far more important things to work on than trying to out-guess 
spammers who rely on mis-typings.


- Shane




-Rob



FC

--
During times of Universal Deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary
act
- George Orwell

Re: [WWW] What to do with OOo related domains?

[Shane Curcuru]

It depends on what the PPMC thinks, and also how popular the links to 
those existing domains are.  IF any of them still have much attention 
publicly, then it's probably worth keeping them for the time being, 
pointing to an appropriate place on oo.o.


- Shane, who had one of his previous unused domains taken over by a 
squatter (and it's not like I'm famous!)



On 2012-05-23 12:21 PM, Andrew Rist wrote:

As part of the transfer of the web properties of OOo to the ASF, the set
of related domains has also been offered to ASF.
We (PPMC) need to decide what we want to do with the related domains.
There are three obvious options available to us:

* Ignore and let the domains expire
* Continue to register to block squatting, but do no more
* Continue to register and forward to oo.o


And...
Just to make things more complex, I've grouped the domains into two
groups. similar-domains, nls-domains.
What are peoples' thought on what to do with each group??

A.



similar-domains

www-open-office.org ooo3.org testopenoffice.org






nls-domains

openoffice-pt.com openoffice-pl.com openoffice-nl.com
openoffice-fr.com
openoffice09fr.com openoffice-gratuit.com de-openoffice.org
deopenoffice.org
de-openoffice.com deopenoffice.com es-openoffice.com
esopenoffice.com
fr-openoffice.com fropenoffice.com it-openoffice.com
itopenoffice.com
en-openoffice.org enopenoffice.org es-openoffice.org
esopenoffice.org
fr-openoffice.org it-openoffice.org itopenoffice.org
nl-openoffice.org
nlopenoffice.org

LibreOffice relicensing efforts

[Shane Curcuru]

In case folks haven't seen this:

  http://legal-discuss.markmail.org/thread/mleqsm636zf5fqia

Which points to:

  http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Development/Relicensing

So it looks like there will be plenty of code sharing! 8->

- Shane

Re: [Comment] Apache software is always free

[Shane Curcuru]

Some of this is also covered explicitly in readme.txt/readme.html in the 
root of an installed build, which is great.  Although it seems the text 
there could use a few updates for Apache branding and the like. 8-)



Separately, it would be good sometime to think through which kinds of 
links - especially those within actual releases - point to oo.o URLs 
versus a.o URLs.  While we certainly want to keep oo.o as a key end-user 
facing resource, we should ensure we have sufficient links and 
references to the official a.o website to make it clear where the 
software comes from.


Obviously this should wait until after graduation, when the official 
homepage of the project is at (presumably) ooo.apache.org!


- Shane

Re: [Comment] Apache software is always free

[Shane Curcuru]

On 2012-05-22 1:41 AM, Rory O'Farrell wrote:

On Mon, 21 May 2012 21:37:54 -0400 Shane
Curcuru  wrote:


Since this question is coming up much much more now that we have
AOO, I figured we need an official URL and resource to point to
when people ask.

http://www.apache.org/free

Any glaring errors?  Anything I should add, or express more
clearly?

The immediate driver for this as a memorable URL is the AOO
podling, since you clearly have the greatest need (with the huge
non-technical user base).  Is there anything in particular we
should consider adding to address AOO or OOo users specifically?

- Shane



The Project list might benefit from a few explanatory words attached
to each Project name, as these names can be rather esoteric; remember
we are not preaching to the converted who know Apache software is
free, but to a puzzled stranger.out t


True, but the purpose of this page is singular: answer the question 
about "do I have to pay for Apache software".  So I'm trying to keep it 
as short and sweet - yet still explain the concepts - as possible.




As this request for review is posted on an OpenOffice list, I remark
that the presence of OpenOffice is not readily apparent.  I have not
statistics before me of uptake of all Apache projects, but I would
expect that OpenOffice (although Incubating) is or shortly will be
among the front runners and deserves a presence.



Apache OpenOffice is listed alongside the webserver (first/most widely 
used ASF project), and Hadoop and Lucene (both very visible in the 
developer space these days).


Note that if AOO wants to create your own version of this page that 
specifically addresses these points for AOO, please feel free.  You 
could then link to the /free page as reference, but explain the 
OOo-specific issues in detail.


- Shane

Re: [Comment] Apache software is always free

[Shane Curcuru]

On 2012-05-22 3:42 AM, Roberto Galoppini wrote:

On Tue, May 22, 2012 at 9:26 AM, Andrea Pescetti  wrote:

Shane Curcuru wrote:


http://www.apache.org/free
Any glaring errors? Anything I should add, or express more clearly?



I would add, when you state that the Apache License meets the Open Source
Initiative's (OSI) Open Source Definition, that it also meets the Free
Software Foundation's Free Software definition and thus it qualifies as
Free/Libre software. In the case of OpenOffice, which used to ship under a
GNU license, this would be helpful to users who want to be sure that the
license change gives them more freedom and not less freedom than before.


True, although this URL is meant for ASF-wide use, not just for AOO.  So 
I'm trying to keep the information as simple (and conflict-inducing 
phrases free) as possible.  But I think a mention that we meet both OSI 
and FSF guidelines is worth adding.




Regards,
  Andrea.



Great job Shane, I'd consider a couple of minor changes.

Add in the first paragraph that it can be used for any purpose and you
can make copies. I know that a careful reader could read it below, but
many just read the very first paragraph.


Good point.



I'd consider also to add in the "Is Apache software free to use? May I
use it for any purpose?" section a couple of hints for who want to
repackage it, so that we can point this people to thart page.


Again, this page is primarily meant to be a memorable URL to provide as 
a reference for the "do I ever have to pay for Apache software" type 
question.


What information for repackagers do you mean?  Wouldn't that kind of 
information better go on the /legal or /licenses areas anyway?


- Shane



Roberto

[Comment] Apache software is always free

[Shane Curcuru]

Since this question is coming up much much more now that we have AOO, I 
figured we need an official URL and resource to point to when people ask.


  http://www.apache.org/free

Any glaring errors?  Anything I should add, or express more clearly?

The immediate driver for this as a memorable URL is the AOO podling, 
since you clearly have the greatest need (with the huge non-technical 
user base).  Is there anything in particular we should consider adding 
to address AOO or OOo users specifically?


- Shane

Re: [HEADS UP] Re: [UPDATE SERVICE] proposal for a AOO 3.4 update service

[Shane Curcuru]

AOO340m1(Build:9590) - Rev. 1327774

Microsoft Windows [Version 6.1.7601]
Which is Win7 SP1

- Shane


On 2012-05-21 10:43 AM, Oliver-Rainer Wittmann wrote:

Hi

On 21.05.2012 16:35, Shane Curcuru wrote:

"OpenOffice.org 3.4 is up to date." Yay! Fast work indeed #asfinfra folk!

Although we should update the product name there for the next build, eh?



Thanks for the test.

Yes, infrastructure is very kind.

One little question: On which operating system do you have your AOO 3.4
instance running.

Yes, I have already seen the "old" strings.


Best regards, Oliver.

Re: [HEADS UP] Re: [UPDATE SERVICE] proposal for a AOO 3.4 update service

[Shane Curcuru]

"OpenOffice.org 3.4 is up to date."  Yay!  Fast work indeed #asfinfra folk!

Although we should update the product name there for the next build, eh?

- Shane

On 2012-05-21 10:30 AM, Oliver-Rainer Wittmann wrote:

Hi,

On 21.05.2012 15:29, Oliver-Rainer Wittmann wrote:

Hi,

On 21.05.2012 13:55, Oliver-Rainer Wittmann wrote:

Hi,

On 15.05.2012 20:45, Oliver-Rainer Wittmann wrote:

Hi,

Am 15.05.12 16:11, schrieb Rob Weir:

On Tue, May 15, 2012 at 8:11 AM, Oliver-Rainer Wittmann
 wrote:

Hi,

From my point of view it would make sense to reactivate a simple
update
service for AOO 3.4.

The update URL for AOO 3.4 is:
http://update38.services.openoffice.org/ProductUpdateService/check.Update

(plus a query part ?pkgfmt= for non-Windows platforms)

As this URL resolves to nothing, the user currently gets the
following
response from the update functionality in AOO 3.4:
Status: Checking for an update failed.
Description: General Internet error has occurred.

I propose provide the following XML document when a HTTP GET
request to the
above given URL is made:

http://installation.openoffice.org/description";>


Kay already made such an XML document available at:
http://www.openoffice.org/ProductUpdateService/check.Update

This response would allow the update functionality in AOO 3.4 to
return to
the user that the version is up to date.

Thus, to reactivate an working update service for AOO 3.4 a
redirection is
needed.



Are proposing that we just have a static XML file and redirect the
requests so it loads that static file?



Yes, as a short-term and fast solution.


I can see that as being a useful short-term solution. But soon we'll
need some more complicated logic, right? For example, when we enable
the 3.3. update check, we'll need to know that updates are available
for some languages, but not others. Can we do that all with
redirection to static files? Or do we need server-based logic, i.e.,
a cgi script?



Static files would be possible, because each version has its own
update service
URL, but it would be not the best solution for the long-term.
Thus, some server-based logic would make sense.


If we're going to need a cgi script in the end, I wonder if it makes
sense to start with one now? We could have a simply script that today
just always points to the "no update available" XML for AOO 3.4. But
then we make it more complicated as we go.



I am currently in preparation of a proposal for an update service
for OOo 3.3
installations. Here, I can/will demonstrate how a server-based logic
would look
like.


Can somebody make this happen?
I have to admit that do not have the knowledge to do it on my own.



If we just redirect to a static file, I think you can just enter a
JIRA request for Infra. If we go with a cgi script then we need
someone to develop that script first.



If nobody objects, I would go for this short-term and static
approach and would
ask via JIRA request for Infra, if the redirect to the already
existing static
file can be established.



Ok, let us drive this issue a little bit more.

For the static and short-term update service for AOO 3.4 I will do
the following:
- Creation of HTTP resource [1] provided the above given simple XML
document


Done.


- Asking ASF Infrastructure via corresponding JIRA issue to redirect
HTTP GET
requests for URL [2] (Update URL of AOO 3.4) to URL [2]


Done - https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-4830



The infrastructure team was reacting very fast.
The redirect is established.

Thus, please check in your AOO 3.4 installation, if the update
functionality returns that your installation is up to date.

Thanks in advance, Oliver



[1]
http://www.openoffice.org/projects/update38/ProductUpdateService/check.Update

[2]
http://update38.services.openoffice.org/ProductUpdateService/check.Update

Re: [PROPOSAL] Suggesting 2 new features for AOO 4.0.

[Shane Curcuru]

You just did!  The ooo-dev@ list is exactly the place to suggest these. 
 In particular, please do start sharing your details, if you have them 
ready.  Also, are you volunteering to work on this code, or are these 
just good ideas you're hoping someone else will pick up?


Here's a good place to look as well: it's sometimes easier if you have a 
chunk of work outlined to add it to an appropriate place in the wiki, 
and then post an email here with a link asking for feedback.


https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/AOO+4.0+Feature+Planning

It might be useful to see if either of these intersect in the Symphony 
code that IBM is donating to the project for inclusion, as the 
committers here accept it and work to integrate it:


http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Symphony_contribution

- Shane

On 2012-05-17 8:42 PM, Michael Acevedo wrote:

Hi,

I was wondering where I can propose the following two features for Apache
OpenOffice 4.0. These are the two features that I have in mind.

1. OpenGL 3D transitions in Impress - I think this is a long overdue
feature in OOo and it certainly helps AOO to better compete with
other proprietary office suites which already have them.
2. Integrated Grammar Checker for Writer - This too as well is a long
overdue feature in OOo. I read somewhere that LibreOffice now has a grammar
checker integrated to it.

I hope that someone can point me in the right direction when it comes to
this proposal.

Many thanks and congrats to the AOO team with their 1 millionth download in
the first week of release!

Discussions should be on ooo-dev@

[Shane Curcuru]

As a general rule, any discussion about the AOO project of any kind 
should be held on the ooo-dev@ mailing list, or the appropriate more 
focused publicly archived list (ooo-marketing@, qa, native language 
list, users, etc.).


If you're in doubt, your post should probably be on a public list.

The only exclusions are about security issues (probably best on 
ooo-security@), or discussions about individuals; i.e. about specific 
committers or contributors as people or committer nominees (versus about 
technical ideas or contributions).  Another exclusion is when responding 
to a third party request that comes to ooo-private@ where the third 
party requests or expects privacy.


Just a friendly reminder about keeping the recent level of ooo-private@ 
traffic down, some of which really belongs here on ooo-dev@.


- Shane, AOO Mentor

Re: [WWW] AOOo french website

[Shane Curcuru]

On 2012-05-11 11:57 AM, eric b wrote:
...

Now, back to the question : who did these changes ?


Thanks,
Eric



Everything's in SVN, so we can (usually) see who changed what. ViewVC is 
useful if you don't have the ooo-site tree checked out locally:


https://svn.apache.org/viewvc/incubator/ooo/ooo-site/trunk/content/fr/index.html?view=log

Those two sites seem to have been in the /fr/index.html page for at 
least the past 6 months, apparently since they were imported, I think? 
So it's not a recent change.  (I also see a lot of people don't include 
commit logs, which is a shame)


It certainly is something that the PPMC should be aware of, and the fr 
site volunteers to consider updating.


- Shane

Re: Are there 3 wiki websites?

[Shane Curcuru]

Excellent question!

On 2012-05-08 2:03 AM, shzh zhao wrote:

hi,

Are there 3 wiki websites? What is the difference?
1. http://wiki.ooo4kids.org/


This is not part of the Apache OpenOffice project.  Eric b has already 
noted it's from the OOo4Kids project, which is a separate organization 
that builds software based on OOo (and we hope in the future based on AOO).



2. http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/


This is part of the Apache OpenOffice project.  It is the old OOo wiki 
from the Sun/Oracle days, and includes all the old content, and is 
partly updated to reflect some of the new development happening on 
future AOO releases.



3. https://cwiki.apache.org


This is an official wiki used by many different Apache projects.  A 
better link for Apache OpenOffice podling is:


  https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Help+Wanted

Note: In general, if the domain name of the website does not end in 
.apache.org, then it is *not* part of any Apache project.  The 
.openoffice.org domain name is one of the very few exceptions; this 
domain *is* part of the Apache OpenOffice podling.


- Shane

3.4 Release Notes overview / brief listing?

[Shane Curcuru]

Given the large end-user population, it feels like it would be really 
helpful for less technical users if the Release Notes [1] included both 
an additional sentence in the first para about the change from 
OpenOffice.org to Apache OpenOffice (same great stuff, just a "new" 
name), and *especially* if they included a single *high-level* bullet 
list of the major functional updates made.


I.e. while ooo-dev@ folks understand the distinctions between things 
added from the OO340 codeline versus things completely new at Apache, 
etc., the average end user won't have a clue what the difference is. 
They're just looking for a simple high-level list of functionality 
changes at the start of the document.


I'd think this could lump a number of the detailed items (which should 
still be listed in the doc later on like they are!) into some "higher 
level" items, like "Improved startup speed, reliability, and security" 
as a rollup description of several of the features.


Just an idea.  If I have time tonight I'll try to make more specific 
suggestions - although I hadn't realized the list was so long!



- Shane

[1] 
https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/AOO+3.4+Release+Notes

Re: [PROPOSAL] Setting Up Official Taiwan

[Shane Curcuru]

On 2012-05-06 12:11 PM, imacat wrote:

On 2012/05/06 23:34, Shane Curcuru said:

Basic guidelines would include:
- (P)PMC approval.  You're already handling this one here on the lists,
great!


 Thanks.


- PPMC ownership.  More than one PPMC member should be able to fully
administer the account.  A best practice is to have several PPMC members
being able to post to the account at will, and to have a basic agreement
at keeping the PPMC apprised of the administrator list and allowing
other PPMC members to join as authors or administrators.


 There is some problem here.  Currently there is no other Taiwan PMC
member but me.  I plan to use these pages as a start to invite more
volunteers, refer them to ooo-dev, and eventually propose some of them
as new PMC members when appropriate.  Surely I can invite other
English-speaking PPMC member to fullfill this request now, but that does
not make sense.

 In cases other than Taiwan, this means the official local page needs
to have at least two PMC members in order to work.  That may not be an
easy condition for non-English-speaking countries.


The minimum from the ASF side is that more than one PPMC member has 
access to the account - for example to be able to quickly send an urgent 
message, or if the account creator disappears and isn't maintaining the 
account.  So adding another PPMC member to help administer will work 
just fine - even if they don't speak your target language, they could at 
least still access the account and update it (perhaps updating the list 
of admins with a new volunteer) if for some reason you are not able to.


I.e. not everyone who is an admin on the account has to post to it 
regularly.  Some projects - smaller ones than this, however - just send 
the login details to all PMC members, just to ensure they can access the 
account if needed.


Does that make sense?

I agree, the other important issue is having volunteers who can actually 
post relevant things to the account regularly - it sounds like you are 
covering that for the time being.


- Shane




- A note on the homepage of the social media account/page/whatever
noting that it is run my PPMC members from the AOO project.
- A link back from the AOO site itself to the account.  This is a key
way that we can inform users of which social media accounts truly could
speak for the project or not.  I.e. any "official" accounts the PPMC
approves and manages should be linked directly to from someplace on our
website.  Any other, non-PPMC accounts could also be linked, but on our
website we can let users know which ones we run versus third parties.


 These are OK.

Re: [PROPOSAL] Setting Up Official Taiwan

[Shane Curcuru]

It's great to see so many volunteers working at setting up social media 
accounts for the podling in various cultures.  I'm definitely +1 for 
PPMC members working on the lists to setup new accounts - presuming that 
we also have the volunteers to put some relevant content on them.  It 
sounds like imacat will do just fine on this one.  8-)


Given the likely increase in these requests, I hope to have some more 
detailed best practices and a few requirements for social media accounts 
that are labeled as official; i.e. are run by the project itself (versus 
the many other accounts run by individuals about our projects).


Basic guidelines would include:

- (P)PMC approval.  You're already handling this one here on the lists, 
great!


- PPMC ownership.  More than one PPMC member should be able to fully 
administer the account.  A best practice is to have several PPMC members 
being able to post to the account at will, and to have a basic agreement 
at keeping the PPMC apprised of the administrator list and allowing 
other PPMC members to join as authors or administrators.


- A note on the homepage of the social media account/page/whatever 
noting that it is run my PPMC members from the AOO project.


- A link back from the AOO site itself to the account.  This is a key 
way that we can inform users of which social media accounts truly could 
speak for the project or not.  I.e. any "official" accounts the PPMC 
approves and manages should be linked directly to from someplace on our 
website.  Any other, non-PPMC accounts could also be linked, but on our 
website we can let users know which ones we run versus third parties.


Comments on these guidelines?

- Shane

On 2012-05-06 11:05 AM, imacat wrote:

Dear all,

 I would like to propose setting up three official Apache OpenOffice
social media accounts for the Taiwan local community:

  1. I would like to set up the Facebook group:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/ooo.tw/

 as the official Apache OpenOffice Taiwan Facebook users' group.  It
is a Facebook group started since 2010/12, and is the current Facebook
group for our local community.

  2. I would also like to set up an official Apache OpenOffice Taiwan
Plurk account, too (whether @apacheoo or @apacheootw is not decided
yet.)  Plurk is the most popular micro-blogging service here in Taiwan,
and is even more active than Facebook.

  3. I do not know if this is appropriate.  I would like to set up an
official Apache OpenOffice Taiwan blog.  That may be apacheoo-tw on
blogspot.  It shall contain Apache OpenOffice announcements, as well as
local news.  Please tell me if there are other suggestions on this.

Re: Apache branded presentation template?

[Shane Curcuru]

We do not have an "official" Apache or project-related presentation 
template currently.  Folks looking for potential content to use or mimic 
may be available on the ComDev project's Speaker Resource page:


  http://community.apache.org/speakers/index.html

If folks do develop a PPMC suggested template, we could definitely put 
it up there as well.


- Shane

On 2012-05-03 11:05 AM, Jürgen Schmidt wrote:

Hi,

do we already have an Apache branded presentation template that can we
share? I think about a nice template (not overloaded) with Apache
OpenOfifce and Apache branding elements that can be used to talk about
AOO at any kind of events.

Anybody interested in designing one?

Juergen

Re: [PROPOSAL] Official Facebook Fan Page for AOO

[Shane Curcuru]

Thanks.  First thing is to remove the "proposed" from the about, now 
that you have other PPMC'ers helping.


Please add me as an admin; I'd like to see how (P)PMCs can best manage 
this kind of resource in other situations, and once my current overload 
of work tails off hope to have more time to contribute.


I'm pretty sure I'm the only "Shane Curcuru" out there.

- Shane

On 2012-05-02 11:01 PM, Rob Weir wrote:

I think we should have an official Facebook "fan page" in time for the
release of Apache OpenOffice 3.4.  I think this is critical, since the
average end user does not subscribe to mailing lists, or even use
Google+ or Twitter.  But almost every user, current and potential,
does use Facebook.  So it is our best opportunity for engaging with
users.

Here is the proposed page: http://www.facebook.com/ApacheOO

I need your help in managing and running this page.   I'm offering to
hand total control of this page over to the PPMC.  If anyone (from the
PPMC) wants to be co-admin on this account, please send me an email
address associated with your Facebook account.   You can send this to
me via private email if you prefer.

So, is anyone willing to help?

Also, if you are not a PPMC member, but would still like to help, this
is very welcome as well, from all volunteers:

1) "Like" the page

2) Share the page with your friends

3) If you find interesting stories or tips related to OpenOffice, post
them on our Wall

4) If you have interesting photos or stories of the history of
OpenOffice, add them to our Timeline

5) Visit the page regularly and add comments to posts, and generally
help with any user questions.

With this page, we'll have a good set of social media accounts ready
for the AOO 3.4 launch, including Google+, Twitter, Identi.ca and
Xing, a Facebook group (which is different than a FB fan page), as
well as a Brazilian Twitter and Indenti.ca account.

Note that with Facebook every page admin is equal and even has the
ability to remove other admins, including removing me.  So I have
absolutely no exclusive special privileges.   I'm reserving nothing.
I'm giving the page over entirely to the PPMC.

Finally, please know that I've made every effort to get the existing
OpenOffice.org FB page made available for our use.  I've asked
repeatedly [1][2] for this, as well as provided detailed technical
steps [3] needed to make this transition.  I think it was worth the
effort to try to make that work, but sadly, this has failed to occur.
  However, we still have enough time (barely) to have a new page ready
for the AOO 3.4 launch, and to promote this page and turn it into
another way in which we can engage with our users in the future.So
I hope I have your support.

[1] https://issues.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=119297
[2] http://markmail.org/message/27wxv4h2mwpahyel
[3] http://markmail.org/message/p5z5o2g74qe6rl6j

Regards,

-Rob

Re: [www][DISCUSS]"Planet" AOO?

[Shane Curcuru]

All Apache committers are allowed to add their own personal blogs - 
whether they're related to their Apache project work or not - as feeds 
to Planet Apache.


  Read: http://planet.apache.org/committers/
  Config: https://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/planet/committers.ini

Do folks here know who runs the existing http://planetopenoffice.org/ 
aggregation site?  It already has quite a number of feeds in it.  Domain 
is owned by Kahlil Johson, or jzarecta@g... from Mexico.


If the AOO PPMC and larger community want to organize a single site to 
aggregate committers and community members' blogs, that would be great. 
 Personally I like the community aspect of Planet Apache, in that some 
committers only blog about technology, but many of them blog about 
personal and other issues too.


Hey, the https://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/planet/FAQ file has a note:
Q. How can I make category RSS feeds in MovableType?
A. See: http://www.hutteman.com/weblog/2003/03/07-49.html
   but you'll need a sufficently new version of MovableType.

If the PPMC gets organized about this, I don't see why we couldn't host 
it at planet.oo.o directly.  That would likely mean only committers' 
blogs content would be added, since it's on an official Apache domain. 
Similarly, folks interested in setting up aggregators should take a look 
at Venus, which is a great aggregator:


  http://intertwingly.net/code/venus/

- Shane

On 2012-04-08 10:20 AM, RGB ES wrote:

Something to think about without hurry, maybe after 3.4 release: to
create a "planet" to aggregate blogs and other content generated by
commiters and other volunteers.

AOO blog is perfect for news about the project, but IMHO a planet like
sub-site to see on one place what contributors do will give a more
dynamic image to the project.

I must admit I have no idea how such sites are created but almost all
FOSS projects have one.

Also, we need to considering our multilingual user base providing a
way to follow specific languages.

Regards

Ricardo

Re: Fwd: Re: After AOO 3.4, attracting new contributors

[Shane Curcuru]

Thanks Pedro for explaining the non-profit angle.  The ASF does not 
offer any such certificates currently - it's hard to see how they work 
with our primary mission (of the ASF overall), which is providing 
software for the public good.


There are plenty of other third parties who do this kind of thing, both 
in terms of training, and in terms of education and the real world. 
Presuming those third parties respect our brand and trademarks, that 
model works out better for everyone, since they can focus on the 
training and ensuring the certifications are meaningful and fairly awarded.


One model that Apache (and many projects) do participate in is Google's 
Summer of Code, so that might be a place to look for project ideas or 
just ask for help, either from the GSoC folks or from the various Apache 
projects (including this podling, right?) participating:


  http://community.apache.org/gsoc.html

- Shane

On 2012-03-29 1:21 AM, q...@imsoftwaresystems.com wrote:


Hi Pedro Giffuni,

You are absolutely right, i could not think the other side it(exploiting&
making money inexchange of certificates). The certificates are issyed by
Apache and issued only when there is a contribution.
The second point is that most of the students generally do not have any
ideas on projects. When a person is seriously working on the project, i am
not sure how much time he/she can spend guiding/mentoring the
students/freshers.

With out any benefit to the student/fresher i am not sure how many people
will be willing to contribute because they should be able to show the
contribution as experience in their resumes.

Thanks&  Regards,
Ram,
Im Software Systems.


On Wed, 28 Mar 2012 21:37:56 -0700 (PDT), Pedro Giffuni
wrote:

Hi Ram;

We are strictly non-profit here so I am not sure how far
we could go with such certifications. I think it's a
delicate matter and sooner or later someone would likely
complain about students being exploited or your company
making money in exchange of ASF certificates.

We certainly can have a Wiki page for students to register
their projects and ideas and if their projects are really
good we would almost certainly invite them to become
Apache committers but that as far as we can go (I think).

cheers,

Pedro.

--- Mer 28/3/12, q...@imsoftwaresystems.com ha scritto:


Hi Rob,

Well, the large talent pool is available here in India with
millions of
students graduating in Engineering,MCA(Master of computer
applications).
They all look for a project for their final semester. We can
somehow try to
attract them but they also try to see what  is the
benefit for them. Most
of these guys they learn C/Java as part of their
syllabus.But we need to
retrain them as they generally  just try to pass and
not to be master of
it.
So we need to train them and make them useful.

I have not seen the code base yet but based on the search
results what i
have understood is that it is implemented in

Java,
OOBasic,
Cpp,
Python,
XSL,
ooRexx

 From Freshers point of view they prefer the new languages
like
Java(ofcourse it is a old one but still new when compared to
C/C++) or
advanced stuff like Android. But still we can train people
in C++ but it is
easy to attract people for Java.

If we know the exact requirement of people then we can try
to gather the
people and train them and make them good to contribute to
the project.

We have a software training institute and staff are from top
MNC's.Lot of
students approach us for Live Projects to gain some real
experience.

So we may try to accept the people and train them. We charge
the students
for training as we have to pay the trainers.
Ultimately what students expect is an experience letter from
Apache so that
they can utilise it for future employment. In addition to
issuing the
certificate we should have their contribution mentioned in
our website
otherwise other job seekers will fake the cetificates.

I think if the company(Apache) is ready to issue a
certificate mentioning
their contribution towards the project and list their
contribution in AOO
website then it should definetly work.

Thanks&  Regards,
Ram,
Im Software Systems

Re: Unconquerable Mail Delivery Failures

[Shane Curcuru]

Apache mail infrastructure uses Apache SpamAssassin for scanning all 
mail coming to our lists.  You can at least see what might be tripping 
up your mail by searching for "SpamAssassin URIBL_BLACK" or similar.


In particular, you hit these rules:

  http://wiki.apache.org/spamassassin/Rules/URIBL_BLACK
  http://wiki.apache.org/spamassassin/Rules/URIBL_JP_SURBL

These each mean that some URI in your message body (i.e. not your sender 
information) is on one of the blacklists above.


Each rule has a certain weighting on the Apache mail servers, and if the 
total weight exceeds the threshold, the mail is rejected.


- Shane

On 2012-03-26 10:18 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton wrote:

Huh??  I can't get past this filter from any of my e-mail addresses with a 
particular piece of mail.  I've tried everything I can think of.   Could it be 
that it talks about P A T C H I N G some W I N D O W S ?

-Original Message-
From: Mail Delivery System [mailto:mailer-dae...@a2s42.a2hosting.com]
Sent: Monday, March 26, 2012 19:09
To: orc...@apache.org
Subject: Mail delivery failed: returning message to sender

This message was created automatically by mail delivery software.

A message that you sent could not be delivered to one or more of its
recipients. This is a permanent error. The following address(es) failed:

   ooo-us...@incubator.apache.org
 SMTP error from remote mail server after end of data:
 host mx1.us.apache.org [140.211.11.136]: 552 spam score (6.1) exceeded 
threshold (SPF_NEUTRAL,URIBL_BLACK,URIBL_JP_SURBL
   ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
 SMTP error from remote mail server after end of data:
 host mx1.us.apache.org [140.211.11.136]: 552 spam score (6.1) exceeded 
threshold (SPF_NEUTRAL,URIBL_BLACK,URIBL_JP_SURBL

-- This is a copy of the message, including all the headers. --

Return-path:
Received: from 71-217-30-179.tukw.qwest.net ([71.217.30.179] helo=Astraendo)
by a2s42.a2hosting.com with esmtpa (Exim 4.69)
(envelope-from)
id 1SCLqD-001ylR-Bn; Mon, 26 Mar 2012 22:08:57 -0400
Reply-To:
From: "Dennis E. Hamilton"
To: "OOo-dev Apache Incubator "
Cc: "ooo-users Apache Incubator List "
Subject: Tips on Windows CVE-2012-0037 Patch
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 19:08:57 -0700
Message-ID:<00b301cd0bbe$91ee0780$b5ca1680$@apache.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0
Thread-Index: Ac0Lvo6SeytgPE0YQlay98e3NQspTQ==
Content-Language: en-us

Something about this message triggers spam filters on both ooo-user and =
ooo-dev.  I am going to reformat the e-mail and see whether that works.

My thanks to Matthew McCue for providing a complete report that helped =
me see where difficulties were coming up.

INSTRUCTIONS FOR MICROSOFT WINDOWS, INCLUDING WINDOWS XP

[ ... the rest deleted in case that is where the trigger is ...]

Re: Clarifying facts

[Shane Curcuru]

On 2012-03-14 1:23 AM, Larry Gusaas wrote:


On 2012-03-13 10:43 PM Rob Weir wrote:

I disagree entirely. Simon was the one apply the blunt instrument
here. He started the day by posting on Google+:

"Since there is no currently maintained version of OpenOffice.org
following Oracle disbanding the team, and since the new Apache
OpenOffice hasn't shipped, defaulting to LibreOffice is the only
responsible thing to do at the moment."


Link please. I couldn't find it.


The quote above comes from Simon on this Google+ comment thread:

https://plus.google.com/u/0/107646708505179576030/posts/ViuT8bLgz2p

It seems like that thread is public so you should be able to click 
through and see some more arguments over the issue as well.


- Shane

P.S. For those who might actually be reading this but are otherwise new 
to open source projects at Apache, please realize that AOO is not the 
norm for Apache projects in terms of the incredible volume of mail 
traffic, nor in terms of continued poor behavior patterns played out 
here with some regularity.

Re: Is any one here familiar with OpenOffice?

[Shane Curcuru]

+1 to Pedro's point that the main end-user channel is crucially important.

In one way, it feels like there are two discussions in this sub-thread:

- Rob zeroing in on his infographic idea (and building at least a small 
subset of good data on participant history).  It will make a good blog 
post and pointer for information on who's working here.


- Several other people believing that the main end-user facing 
information source is probably the most important tool we have to deal 
with either FUD, or just plain user interest.


Dave - do we have a "one stop shop" for pointers for committers who want 
to work on the oo.o website?  In particular for text only changes (i.e. 
no graphics or style stuff), are there any gotchas on any of the main 
parts of the site these days?


Personally, I agree with Pedro, and I'm far more interested in working 
on the larger story of ensuring that end users understand the transition 
from OOo -> AOO.  Presuming I can free up some time next week I'd like 
to do something about the quite annoying lack of obvious "Apache" 
mentions all over the oo.o site.


- Shane

On 2012-03-12 5:49 PM, Dave Fisher wrote:


On Mar 12, 2012, at 1:07 PM, Rob Weir wrote:


On Mon, Mar 12, 2012 at 3:59 PM, Pedro Giffuni  wrote:

On 03/12/12 14:48, Rob Weir wrote:


On Mon, Mar 12, 2012 at 3:41 PM, Pedro Giffuni   wrote:


On 03/12/12 13:42, Rob Weir wrote:



I'm not suggesting we argue with anyone.  I'm suggesting we make
truthful positive statements about this project and the experience
level of its participants.


FWIW, and just my humble opinion ...

I don't think we should spend time discussing such arguments
when we have the one instrument that defines the true
continuation of the project, namely www.openoffice.org .


Oh, I'm sure we all have our own preferred ways of doing this.  The
nice thing is that they are not mutually exclusive. We only need to
agree to be accurate and positive.   We don't need to agree on a
narrow set of specific communications. Some volunteers might work
better with HTML, others with YouTube videos, others with graphics.
Let's find more ways of saying "yes and"  instead of "no, but".

-Rob



You didn't get it: the channel matters.

If a blog from the Apache Foundation says "OpenOffice is not
dead" and a blog from TDF says "OpenOffice.org is dead",
well ... both can be wrong or right ...

OTOH, If the openoffice.org says "alive and kicking" the
message is way more credible.



So that is a "yes, and" statement.  Yes, let's do the home page, and
the other things as well, if we have volunteers to do them. They work
together.  Certainly the home page gets a lot of traffic, so it can
reinforce a message.


This said ... I don't feel confident enough to modify the
main page: if I, for example, screw things up badly and
want to revert my changes, can I do that easily in
Apache CMS?



It may depend on whether you want to change only the main index.html
page, or change the repeated page elements that appear on every page.
Dave would know how far you can go without forcing a complete rebuild.


We now use Server Side Includes and there are no longer any sledgehammer builds.

I have a notion to make it easy to add news to the main page. The buttons are a 
current issue on the main page and the downloads.

It is safe to change/update news stories using the Apache CMS Bookmarklet 
directly from www.openoffice.org. If you are not a committer then you can 
create a patch.

Regards,
Dave




-Rob


cheers,

Pedro.

Re: AOO Logo for FreeBSD

[Shane Curcuru]

Is there a particular reason you're using a different font and layout 
than the normal AOO logo?  Has the FreeBSD port usually had a very 
different logo than past OOO builds?


I really like the license underneath, and the small daemon on the 
corner, almost as if he's looking in to seeing what's happening here. 
That's a great combination.


- Shane

P.S. Personally, I don't like the font: too heavy and mushy looking, 
especially (I bet) at smaller resolutions - but you really don't need to 
listen to me on that kind of issue, since you're doing the work! Thanks!


On 2012-03-01 11:01 PM, Pedro Giffuni wrote:

I am giving a thought on a new logo for use with FreeBSD's
port. Here is a WIP:

http://people.apache.org/~pfg/images/ApacheOO-BSD.png

The idea is to use a modern logo and give a little more strength
to the fact that we are using the new license. It would also be
good to use the concept of a feather like the classic pen but
that's a little tough at this time. I also kept the small BSD
daemon separated on purpose so that there is no
confusion.

All the fonts used are under AL2 (droid), no daemons or any
form of dead or undead creatures were harmed during the
making of this logo.

Opinions?

cheers,

Pedro.

Re: selling open office

[Shane Curcuru]

On 2012-02-28 12:23 PM, flamin hotdog wrote:


hi, i was wondering where you stand on people selling open office. i know of 
somebody who is selling open office on ebay for profit.
thanks andy


As other folks have commented, the Apache License is designed to be 
permissive, in that third parties may take code under that license and 
use it for all sorts of activities.  This includes selling derivative 
software products based on our Apache licensed code, as well as charging 
a fee for providing CDs, training, consulting, and other activities 
based on actual Apache software products.


One of the main restrictions in the Apache License is that it does *not* 
grant rights to the trademarks - i.e. the brand names, logos, etc. - 
associated with the software products using this license.


Legal issues always depend on all the details around each specific case, 
so it's very difficult to provide general advice.  But in general third 
parties can charge for providing customers with copies of Apache 
licensed software products *as long as* they don't attempt to misuse the 
trademarks of the original producer of the software product.



In general, lengthy discussions of cases of license or trademark abuse 
are not helpful unless a (P)PMC can define a *specific* legal question, 
which can then be brought to the appropriate officer of the ASF or ASF 
counsel for legal advice.


Folks who want to learn more about the ASF's polices are strongly urged 
to read the actual license and trademark policies, along with the FAQs 
linked from their pages:


  http://www.apache.org/licenses/
  http://www.apache.org/foundation/marks/


- Shane
  Apache OpenOffice mentor

Re: Reminder: Not all list posts are from list subscribers

[Shane Curcuru]

On 2012-02-16 8:41 PM, Ariel Constenla-Haile wrote:

On Thu, Feb 16, 2012 at 02:06:56PM -0500, Rob Weir wrote:

You is welcome to scrutinize your mail headers with a hex editor if
that is your thing.


That's why I said a "decent MUA"... In mutt, for example, all you have
to do is add to your ~/.muttrc two lines:


Where MUA = Mail User Agent, i.e. the actual program that you use to 
read your emails - like Thunderbird, Outlook, GMail (really, the browser 
you use to open gmail.com), etc.



unignore "Delivered-To: moderator for"
color headerbrightred   color233'^delivered-to: moderator for'

and you see the header in a color impossible to miss its moderated:
http://people.apache.org/~arielch/images/mutt-moderated.png

It's not rocket science to use a "decent MUA".

Regards


Indeed - for folks who use Thunderbird (like I do), I posted 
instructions on how to setup mail filters based on headers.


  http://markmail.org/message/katmtejfsx5xomvo

Given the broad reach (both users and developers) and new community 
around AOO, it would be awesome to post a page on the AOO site with tips 
on how to manage mail subscriptions at Apache.  Some projects have tips 
like this, but they're normally developer-focused, and the average user 
probably has no clue what a mua is.


Huh.  The Jakarta mailing list guidelines page is a fairly good overview 
that's not too technical about list etiquette that might be worth 
copying parts of:


  http://jakarta.apache.org/site/mail.html

I don't remember if we have a specific page that details how our ezmlm 
sets headers by default (remember, each project may configure various 
lists slightly differently), but I wish I had time to crib a list of 
some of the important headers, like the discussion here about "moderator 
for" (knowing if a post comes from a subscriber will be important in AOO!).


- Shane

Re: How to give proper attributions to patches?

[Shane Curcuru]

On 2012-02-15 4:44 PM, Pedro Giffuni wrote:
...

Perhaps we should establish some policy concerning
the list of contributors (where is it, BTW?); no
idea if we want to distinguish between recent (AOO)
contributors and previous (OOo) contributors.

...

Excellent discussion.  I'd suggest PPMC members look at the 
well-established and (incredibly) detailed commit log message standards 
our own Apache Subversion project uses:



http://subversion.apache.org/docs/community-guide/conventions.html#crediting

It might be useful if a couple of folks review those guidelines, pick a 
couple that seem pertinent, and propose them for this project to adopt. 
 As you might expect, as a project that builds a source code tracker, 
the Subversion project is pretty detailed about how they track commit 
logs. 8-)


In general, providing credit like this in a simple way that's visible to 
the active developers on the project (wherever that is) is definitely 
important.  There are both some contributors who simply like to get the 
credit; it also allows the existing committers to clearly see what new 
contributors are doing over time, allowing the community to better see 
who to consider for future committer votes.


Note: in general, giving credit is a good thing, especially to new 
submitters.  Making people "owners" or "leaders" of specific modules in 
the larger sense is... not necessarily a good thing; in terms of 
ownership, we encourage the community as a whole to own the project.


- shane

Re: Logo - banner artwork

[Shane Curcuru]

Hey, how'd you do the feather, and what was your source for that part of 
the graphic?  It's a little tiny bit different than the a.o homepage one 
(which is quite small), but yours looks great!  (Note: we could also use 
updated versions of the main Apache feather - no changes, just some 
better graphics in different sizes for distribution)


Not that you probably shouldn't listen to me when it comes to graphics, 
since I'm really bad at visual design.  But... when you look at 
logo2.png, I can't quite tell if the kerning is right, or if it needs 
tweaking:


"A" might move a sqinch closer to the p in the title line

The two "O"s in the title line might tweak closer to the following letters

The "i" in the title line might skootch closer to the following "c"

Oddly enough, I like the kerning on the subhead - it's only the *bold* 
characters in the title line that seem the tiniest bit off.



- Shane, who recently read https://www.xkcd.com/1015/ and reminds you 
that he's really bad at graphics, so he might just be crazy on this one


On 2012-02-09 2:05 PM, drew wrote:

Hi,

Worked on the logo and banner, etc yesterday.

There was a request for something more square and that ended up getting
me to think about a more squarish layout - so I put together a variant
of the incubator tag line.

http://lo-portal.us/temp/logo2.png

The only real change to the Apache OpenOffie part is a slight increase
of the space between the words Apache and OpenOffie.

So - for the baseline logo then I have the color, b+W and grayscale
wrapped up I think, minus just a couple of 300dpi png files suitable for
printing.

Will finish that this afternoon and send in - if anyone wants that
variation included, let me know and I'll include that also.

Thanks,

//drew

Re: License name

[Shane Curcuru]

I'd recommend using the OSI / SPDX abbreviations:

  http://www.opensource.org/licenses/alphabetical

Which is: Apache-2.0

Otherwise, I would use just use "AL", I think.

- Shane

On 2012-02-14 12:14 PM, Armin Le Grand wrote:

Hi List,

I'm looking for a short name (abbreviation) for 'Apache License, Version
2.0'. Does something like that exist?

Background: There are fields called 'LICENSENAME' in
trunk\main\instsetoo_native\util\openoffice.lst which currently are set
to 'LGPL' and I want to replace those. I'm also investigating where
these are used, but something short without spaces may be needed.
Comments appreciated!

Sincerely,
Armin
--
ALG

Re: May I use "OpenOffice.org" and "Apache Incubator" logos on OpenOffice.org CD

[Shane Curcuru]

(In case someone from AOO hasn't answered yet)

I certainly think it would look better with a similar font to the ASF 
logo, but it's not required in a project like this.  Unfortunately, I 
don't know the details of the specific font.


Hopefully the AOO folks can update the links - thanks for the notes and 
for working on the details of your project!


- Shane

On 2012-02-02 5:36 PM, Kazunari Hirano wrote:

Hi Shane and all,

I have a question.

When we write the text "Apache Incubator Project" and its URL along
with the Feather, http://apache.org/images/feather.gif, can we use any
font for the text "Apache Incubator Project" and its URL ?  Or should
we use the same font for the text "The Apache Software Foundation" and
its URL as shown in http://www.apache.org/images/asf_logo_wide.gif ?
What font is it?

I have found a wrong link on the OpenOffice.org Official Logo page,
http://www.openoffice.org/marketing/art/galleries/logos/

In the line "You can download the OpenOffice.org logo as SVG or EPS,"
the word "SVG" is linked to
http://www.openoffice.org/marketing/art/galleries/logos/%3Chttp://www.openoffice.org/trademark/logo_color.svg%3E
I think this should be http://www.openoffice.org/trademark/logo_color.svg

Thanks,
khirano

Re: Committers and Alias.txt

[Shane Curcuru]

This has recently changed to be part of the shiny new power tool with 
the strength to move mountains, the ID tool:


  https://id.apache.org/

I presume the documentation for this, and the new committer invite, 
etc., has not caught up to the amazing speed and functionality of this 
new and innovative way to track committer information at the Foundation.


Please - login, check it out, and be amazed!

- Shane, whose sense of humor is clearly over-blown before coffee

P.S. MailAlias.txt is an important way that committers can officially 
(since it's in SVN, it can only be changed by committers) let other 
committers know what their normal email addresses are - very helpful for 
mail moderation, etc.


P.P.S. MailAlias.txt and a number of other bits of committer-specific 
information is now all accessed through LDAP and such on the id.a.o 
site, where you can change your password, mail aliases, PGP key id, and 
more.  Somewhere is documentation that shows how you can both do this 
stuff through that website by yourself, but you can also get most of the 
data from underlying files or services programmatically.


P.P.P.S. Thanks infra team!

Re: Abofallen URLs for OOo

[Shane Curcuru]

Yes, please just forward or checkin the list to SVN.  This would be 
valuable for the PPMC to review.


- Shane

On 2012-02-02 12:32 AM, Louis Suárez-Potts wrote:

Abofallen is German for fraudulent subscriptions. When we in the OOo
days had the trademark project, we collected fraudulent URLs. Hat off
to Florian E. and many others for compiling them. I came across the
spreadsheet--I imagine it's still in the archives for
tradem...@council.openoffice.org--for 2010-03-28. There may be later
ones, and Florian may have them still. It's a useful list.

If we here now do not have it, I can post the old one, and it can be
progressively updated. I also think it worthwhile that for something
like this, all implementations and variants of OOo combine forces.

-louis

PS the list is long. Also, FWIW, I've not received in some while any
notice from eBay regarding my ownership (?) of the About
OpenOffice.org page. Many defrauders and not use eBay as their
shopwindow.

Re: Fake OpenOffice site?

[Shane Curcuru]

On 2012-02-01 9:01 PM, Rob Weir wrote:

On Wed, Feb 1, 2012 at 8:09 PM, Shane Curcuru  wrote:

No, that website and any related websites are not affiliated with the Apache
Software Foundation, the Apache OpenOffice podling, nor with the
OpenOffice.org software product.

We strongly recommend that you do not do business with the owners of that
website.

Past releases of OpenOffice.org software products are available at:

  http://www.openoffice.org/download/other.html

Note that while OpenOffice.org the product does not have any future release


Products don't have release plans.  Projects do.   If you see the code
starting to have a release plan of its then own please enter a defect
in Bugzilla so we can fix any emergent intelligence that got into the
code.


plans, this Apache OpenOffice project plans to use most of the code from
that product to create a great new - and always free - office productivity
suite.  You can learn more about this podling's plans for the future Apache


This is a very tortured way of expressing some very simple facts that
should be known by route by every PPMC member:


Sorry about my possibly convoluted phrasing if anyone besides Rob was 
confused by it, but my message was primarily focused at people not on 
the PPMC, and on anyone reviewing this thread in the archives. 
Similarly, besides the phrasing, I would be astounded if any PPMC 
members weren't aware of all this, and I see that another committer here 
already answered the user's question while I was writing my reply.




1) Oracle contributed the OpenOffice.org source code and trademarks to Apache


Really?  I thought Oracle granted a license of most of the 
OpenOffice.org source code to Apache, not all of it.  If they had 
granted a license of all the source code, we'd probably be about a month 
further along in the schedule, maybe?  But we've done amazing work 
filling in the pieces and making the current Apache OpenOffice releases 
work while ensuring we only use permissively licensed code.


- Shane



2) We have an project here at Apache working on the next version of OpenOffice.

I'd encourage us not to try to be too clever in expressing these basic
facts.   In particular, we are not creating a "new office productivity
suite".  If we were it would be called version 1.0, not 3.4.  In fact
everyone involved in this project has been consistent in saying that
our initial Apache release would be a modest completion of the earlier
OpenOffice.org 3.4 beta.  So I have no idea why you would feel
entitled to start delivering your own, conflicting marketing message
on this point.


OpenOffice product here on their blog:

  http://blogs.apache.org/ooo/

Reminder: if the domain name does not end in "apache.org" or
"openoffice.org", then the domain you're looking at is almost certainly not
affiliated with the ASF or this podling, nor with OpenOffice.org.

Note also that Apache projects are *always* offered for free download. If
you ever see an Apache (or OpenOffice.org) product offered with strings
attached, or where payment is required, please consider coming to an
apache.org website to get a free copy.  There are companies that sell
support contracts related to Apache software products, or training, or the
like - but you should never have to pay to download and install an Apache
software product.

Thanks for the tip.  It's likely we'll be contacting that domain owner to
complain about their confusing links using our logos and products.

- Shane Curcuru
  VP, Brand Management
  The Apache Software Foundation


On 2012-02-01 6:37 PM, Nardia Keenan wrote:


Hello

Is this site part of OpenOffice.org? It has the seagull logo but says it's
free then asks for money

http://www.openofficeonline2011.com/

Thank you
Nardia Keenan

Re: Fake OpenOffice site?

[Shane Curcuru]

No, that website and any related websites are not affiliated with the 
Apache Software Foundation, the Apache OpenOffice podling, nor with the 
OpenOffice.org software product.


We strongly recommend that you do not do business with the owners of 
that website.


Past releases of OpenOffice.org software products are available at:

  http://www.openoffice.org/download/other.html

Note that while OpenOffice.org the product does not have any future 
release plans, this Apache OpenOffice project plans to use most of the 
code from that product to create a great new - and always free - office 
productivity suite.  You can learn more about this podling's plans for 
the future Apache OpenOffice product here on their blog:


  http://blogs.apache.org/ooo/

Reminder: if the domain name does not end in "apache.org" or 
"openoffice.org", then the domain you're looking at is almost certainly 
not affiliated with the ASF or this podling, nor with OpenOffice.org.


Note also that Apache projects are *always* offered for free download. 
If you ever see an Apache (or OpenOffice.org) product offered with 
strings attached, or where payment is required, please consider coming 
to an apache.org website to get a free copy.  There are companies that 
sell support contracts related to Apache software products, or training, 
or the like - but you should never have to pay to download and install 
an Apache software product.


Thanks for the tip.  It's likely we'll be contacting that domain owner 
to complain about their confusing links using our logos and products.


- Shane Curcuru
  VP, Brand Management
  The Apache Software Foundation

On 2012-02-01 6:37 PM, Nardia Keenan wrote:

Hello

Is this site part of OpenOffice.org? It has the seagull logo but says it's
free then asks for money

http://www.openofficeonline2011.com/

Thank you
Nardia Keenan

Re: Updates: IBM Lotus Symphony, Apache OpenOffice, IBM Docs and other fun stuff

[Shane Curcuru]

This thread has gone pretty far off topic for our already heavily loaded 
ooo-dev@ mailing list, so I suggest we drop discussions of 
jurisdictional distinctions of corporate law and Adam Smith references.


- Shane

Re: admin permissions on old OOo

[Shane Curcuru]

On 2012-01-30 1:37 PM, Louis Suárez-Potts wrote:

On 30 January 2012 13:35, Dave Fisher  wrote:


On Jan 30, 2012, at 8:26 AM, Louis Suárez-Potts wrote:


Hi all,

I used to have admin permissions on the old site. I no longer seem to.
I receive requests (as does Florian E.) to delete mail mistakenly
posted to the public lists, but I cannot do much about it directly.

I can route to those who *do* have admin permissions on the old site,
if you like. There are other small things to do, too, that require
admin on the Kenai site.


You should be able to get to the old site, but it will be going away.


I can easily get to the old site.
The point of my email was that I no longer have admin privileges. I
need them to do the things asked of me.


What specific things are being asked of you?

Why aren't they being brought to the list (either details, or at least 
an overview of what this work is about)?


What of this work will still need to be done once the old site goes away?

- Shane








If none of this is needed, good to hear. But the messages are there still.


As soon as we decide to cut it off we will. We thought we needed to keep it 
around for template and extension site login, but that is already broken.

I did find it necessary to go to the Kenai svn to finish the specs migration, 
but that was done by altering my /etc/hosts/.

Is it time to remove the old OOo?


Yes.


Regards,
Dave



louis

Re: [WWW] question about current Web site instructions...

[Shane Curcuru]

On 2012-01-30 11:56 AM, Kay Schenk wrote:

On Sun, Jan 29, 2012 at 3:35 PM, Dave Fisher  wrote:



On Jan 29, 2012, at 2:36 PM, Kay Schenk wrote:


I'm looking at --

http://incubator.apache.org/openofficeorg/website-local.html

In the SETUP area, past the svn instructions is a section on installing
python that also references the Apache CMS. Are these only needed for
basically building the "ooo" site locally?

... snip...

Start here:
I'm not a committer on $project, which uses the CMS. Can I still use the 
CMS?

http://www.apache.org/dev/cmsref.html#non-committer

Updates to the /dev site appreciated as well, especially to make this 
kind of ASF-wide technical details about how to use the CMS and other 
ASF deployed systems more useful for new users.  Remember, not all 
Apache projects use the CMS, many still use Confluence (wiki export) or 
their own custom setup.


- Shane

Re: May I use "OpenOffice.org" and "Apache Incubator" logos on OpenOffice.org CD

[Shane Curcuru]

Yes, the proposed uses are appropriate for use of the logos on CDs that 
contain actual OpenOffice.org or Apache OpenOffice binaries (and/or 
source code).


For the purposes of this CD either Incubator logo is acceptable, 
although I agree with you that the logo with the project URL in it is 
probably a better choice.


Good luck with your efforts!  We appreciate the work all our volunteers 
do in promoting Apache projects and podlings.


Thanks,
- Shane Curcuru
  VP, Brand Management
  The Apache Software Foundation

On 2012-01-22 10:52 PM, Kazunari Hirano wrote:

Hi trademarks team,

http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/JA/Marketing/OpenOffice.org_CD
We would like to produce OpenOffice.org 3.3.0 CDs as soon as possible.
Because we are planning to distribute these CDs to freshmen in
collages and universities.
In Japan schools, collages and universities start in April.
We have to promote OpenOffice.org CDs now.

We would like to use "OpenOffice.org" and "Apache Incubator" logos on the CDs.
Can we also use a logo ("Apache Incubator Project" with its URL) proposed in
https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/AOOLogo+proposal
?
I think it's better because the proposed logo has the URL,
http://incubator.apache.org/openofficeorg/

May I use them on the CDs?
If I can use them, can I get bigger Logo Images?
Because I would like to make a much larger CD label image like
http://www.openoffice.org/marketing/art/galleries/cdart/3.0/OOo3_CD_label_nc.png
for good printing.
Thanks,
khirano


On Sun, Jan 15, 2012 at 7:19 PM, Kazunari Hirano  wrote:

Thank you, Rob, for forwarding my request to tradema...@apache.org.

I would like to use "Apache Incubator" logo with "OpenOffice.org" logo
on the OpenOffice.org 3.0.0 CD Japanese because I think I can
emphasize that OpenOffice.org the code, the product and the community
are now hosted by Apache.

Thanks,
khirano

On Sun, Jan 15, 2012 at 12:37 PM, Rob Weir  wrote:

Hi Shane.

This request to use the OpenOffice.org logo came to the ooo-dev list.
We reviewed and there were no objections after 72-hours to forwarding
this request on to you with our positive recommendation.

Note:  the request was also for use of the "Apache Incubator" logo.
We gave no opinion on that.

Regards,

-Rob


-- Forwarded message --
From: Kazunari Hirano
Date: Wed, Jan 11, 2012 at 9:58 AM
Subject: May I use "OpenOffice.org" and "Apache Incubator" logos on
OpenOffice.org CD
To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org


Happy New Year!

Please take a look at the following page.
http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/JA/Marketing/OpenOffice.org_CD/

May I use "OpenOffice.org" and "Apache Incubator" logos on OpenOffice.org CD?

Thanks,
khirano
--
khir...@apache.org
Apache OpenOffice (incubating)
http://incubator.apache.org/openofficeorg/

Re: 18 Jan 2012: SOPA and PIPA Protest Banner

[Shane Curcuru]

On 2012-01-18 11:11 PM, Louis Suárez-Potts wrote:

Sally,


On 18 January 2012 22:11, Sally Khudairi  wrote:

Sorry, Louis -- not ignoring you; have been offsite for most of the day.


Actually, not a problem. I knew when I posted my first of several
messages late last night that it was way, way too late. But I had
waited for ASF to do something obvious on its own behalf, and when it
didn't--and when no one on the A OO list did, either--I thought at the
least I'd raise the issue, conscious of its belatedness; indeed, that
was part of the point, and I should hope that for the next time (and
there will be no end of next times) we can act before not after it's
too late.



Usually we (ASF Marketing&  Publicity) need more than same-day notice to
coordinate such efforts.

I know there's been discussion about this on the Membership side as well,
but the consensus (thus far) is to not black out *.apache.org, as was
suggested. No further action has been decided upon, IIRC.


Evidently.



Let's also keep in mind that the ASF Infrastructure team need to be kept
abreast of any decisions/proposals here as well, as they're the ones capable
of pulling the trigger on the site.


I am conscious of these things. So. Let's imagine that I want to get
ASF to do something reflecting the will of at least one of its
podlings. As was pointed out, we here can put up a demonstration. But
how would I go about persuading the ASF directorate? And is there any
kind of apparatus (political, technical) that would even allow for the
entire domain to reflect a banner message? (I'd assume, yes, but one
never knows.)


By "ASF directorate" do you mean the board?  8-)  In terms of politics, 
I think you'll find the ASF Membership generally stays out of politics, 
at least in terms of official ASF messages (although many Members 
certainly have their own strongly held and blogged views!).  In terms of 
technology, the infra team can provide advice and implement all sorts of 
cool things on the website if necessary.


The list of ASF officers is public:
  http://www.apache.org/foundation/

And this is a somewhat helpful overview of corporate structure:
  http://apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html#structure

For this kind of question, it's really first up to a sufficient group of 
ASF Members who also volunteer to help do the work of publishing any 
theoretical apache.org top level website message.  Depending on the 
situation, we'd certainly ask press@ for advice on how to make the 
message most effective.  And any official statement would either be 
voted on by the board@, or would be signed by a specific ASF officer, 
depending on what topic it's on.


But historically we've shown that the ASF tends to take official 
positions rarely, and only about fundamental issues that are likely to 
affect all of our projects.  My general impression of the Membership is 
that we don't want to be an advocacy group: we merely want to provide a 
good home for like-minded projects who choose to come here.


Individual projects are obviously allowed to manage their own websites 
as they wish, as long as they respect ASF policy and don't cross the 
line into types of lobbying that we're not allowed to do (for our 
particular kind of non-profit status in the US).


- Shane



Thanks
louis


Thanks,
Sally

= = = = =
Boston +1 617 921 8656
London +44 (0) 20 3239 9686
skype sallykhudairi


From: Louis Suárez-Potts
To: "ooo-dev@incubator"; ASF Marketing&
Marketing&  Publicity
Sent: Wednesday, 18 January 2012, 11:05
Subject: 18 Jan 2012: SOPA and PIPA Protest Banner

All,
Proposal:

1. Let's vote on supporting those who have protested the proposed US
bills supposed to combat piracy but actually doing a lot more than
that and none of it good. These two proposals: SOPA and PIPA.
Wikipedia has a fair account:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop_Online_Piracy_Act

2. I would propose we post on the Apache OpenOffice podling site this
language, for remainder of the day, to be taken down at the onset of
19 January 2012 GMT.


** The Apache OpenOffice Podling members support those who have
darkened their Web sites as a unified gesture to protect the freedoms
of the Internet and stop misguided legislation that would threaten
them. **


I would propose further that we have the text white on a black banner
at the top of every podling page.

Please vote as soon as you can, as obviously time is of the essence.

thanks
louis

PS I'm cc'ing the ASF marketing and publicity list. Quite possible
that Apache will say no, if so, that's fine. Better we act as a body
together. But I would also suggest that ASF take the lead here and
issue a statement, if they have not done so already.

Re: Team OpenOffice White Label Office (powered by Apache Open Office)

[Shane Curcuru]

On 2012-01-04 9:21 AM, Rob Weir wrote:

On Wed, Jan 4, 2012 at 3:03 AM, eric b  wrote:

Hi Rob,

Le 4 janv. 12 à 02:24, Rob Weir a écrit :



Note that this does not become your product's name.  It is a logo, like
"Intel Inside", that can be used by 3rd party products that include or are
based on an Apache product.




This point is ESSENTIAL, and imho, only official Apache OpenOffice.org
websites should use the logo.

Though, if 3rd party product want to mention they are based on Apache
product, then they can write it, and why not, add the apache logo. But not
the OpenOffice.org one.



I'm not sure we're authorized (as a project) to permit use of the
Apache logo.  I suspect not.  But we are able to create a "powered by
logo" that is distinct from the "product" logo, for 3rd party products
to use.  The idea is to avoid diluting the value of the core product
logo, but still allow 3rd party apps to express their use of the code,
and for them to help us raise awareness of the brand.

Think of it this way:  Did the "Intel Inside" program help or hurt
Intel and the value of their brand?  I don't think it hurt them.

...snip...

The whole point of "Powered By" is that we allow broad and simple useage 
of a *related* logo to third parties under certain conditions, but we 
reserve rights to the official primary project logo to ourselves.


This ensures that when people see the official primary logo, they are 
thinking of Apache OpenOffice provided by the ASF.  And when they see 
the "Powered By AOO" or similar logo, they'll think of Apache 
OpenOffice, and know that it's a related product, but is not Apache 
OpenOffice (just based on).


Note that "Powered By" is only a suggested separator phrase, trademarks@ 
is happy to review requests for other naming styles.  "Based On", "Built 
With", etc. might be potentially good alternatives.


- Shane

Re: Holiday Greetings...

[Shane Curcuru]

Discussions of the appropriate verbiage for goodwill greetings near the 
turn of the new year (at least under the Gregorian or Western calendar) 
is offtopic for this list and should be taken elsewhere.


Hope everyone had a Joyous Winter Solstice earlier this week!

- Shane

On 2011-12-25 7:24 PM, John Boyle wrote:

On 12/25/2011 11:42 AM, drew wrote:

This has been quite a year for the extended community and communities of
individuals formed since the decision to open source the original
StarOffice application suite some 12 years ago. Then again the same
could be said for the entire dozen years - and here is my meager attempt
to capture that in 2 minutes...


soHappyHoliday2011.mp4

Merry Christmas

~~ Drew Jensen





To Dev: What is with this "HAPPY HOLIDAY" business? Christ IS a PROVEN
HISTORICAL PERSON, BY ATHEISTIC AND AGNOSTIC SCIENTISTS, Jewish
Historians and even Muslim historians, so you cannot argue he did not!
SO WHY CAN'T THIS SEASON BE CALLED BY ITS HISTORIC NAME, *MERRY
CHRISTMAS and NOTHING LESS!!! I thought this list was about OOo and NOT
something Politically sickening!>:o *

Re: IP Clearance Milestone

[Shane Curcuru]

On 2011-12-23 5:13 PM, Louis Suárez-Potts wrote:

Juergen, et al., We used to have on Ye Olde a pr@ list charged with
drafting and then sending out, first in En, then in other tongues
announcements related to OOo releases, etc.

Apache of course maintains its own PR machinery.

So, obvious question: What is the logistic to coordinate or to work
with the Apache release PR, should we want to do that?


One might look in the obvious place:

  http://www.apache.org/press/

However please realize that as a podling, you do not necessarily get the 
same level of support as a top level Apache project, and similarly the 
Apache Incubator has some restrictions on the formal types of press 
activities a podling can normally do.


But I have and idea.  Why not make a blog post, and then use the new 
announce list (and various social media channels) to tell this story?


- Shane



Louis

Re: Team OpenOffice White Label Office (powered by Apache Open Office)

[Shane Curcuru]

On 2011-12-21 8:28 PM, Thomas Horn wrote:

Sorry for the formatting, I'll try again if it comes out better now;
I'm not such a computer expert as all the developers on the list :-).


Thank you, Thomas, for speaking up!  Many of the mentors do realize that 
the ooo-dev@ list can be quite daunting to approach for newcomers - 
especially non-developers, so we certainly appreciate your honest feedback.


There's a lot here, at the moment I only have a few comments.


as I have only susbcried around a months ago because I found TOOo
messaging about donations and source code sponsors suspicious, I still
get the impression that they are somehow not "playing with open
cards".

So as TOOo asked for clear feedback in the other thread, I just
thought I'd throw in my $.02. All of this being my opion -- the
perspective of a user -- only, of course.

If I read the annoucement about "White Label Office" and all the
website, I get the impression that they somehow want to conceive the
message that they are "the official partner"/"development leader" of
OpenOffice.org. It isn't expressed explicitly anywhere but it is
manifested in many small aspects, which are not lies but very near
too.

E.g. "first to be published since the withdrawal of the main sponsor
ORACLE" [1] implies some "official" continuity of versioning, which
IMHO can only be provided by ASF. On the other hand, as it stands,
it's just false as "White Label Office" uses the sources granted by
Oracle under LGPL v3 as LibreOffice does. So there is no difference
between LibreOffice and "White Label Office", with LibreOffice having
released versions BEFORE "White Label Office".


I'm not sure I'd use terms like "false" in this context.  But I do agree 
(and am glad to see a specific user experience like this) that the TOO 
messaging and press around the White Label Office, when taken as a 
whole, is clearly confusing to users.




Another thing is to insist on the "fact that about 95% of the current
source code is a product of the programming of the engineering team in
Hamburg" [2], implying some sort of copyright on most of the code of
OOo/AOO, which is plainly wrong as the engineering team did this as
part of their duties at Sun/Oracle, with Sun/Oracle and now ASF being
the copyright owner of any of their work.


The ASF does not require (nor ask for) copyright assignment, so this is 
not necessarily an important point.  Oracle has licensed the bulk of the 
OOo software to the ASF under the permissive Apache License, and as 
such, the ASF is now licensing that software under our license to 
everyone.  Thus people really are free to use the code that they get 
from this podling in just about any way they choose, under the Apache 
License - as long as they respect our trademarks.


I presume (but have not verified) that TOO has taken the original 
GPL\LGPL licensed code from the earlier Sun/Oracle repositories and used 
that for their White Label Office.




And lastly, I feel a bit alienated by sentences like "die farbigen
Dokumenten-Icons, die trotz Protest der Anwender unter der Regie von
Oracle ersetzt wurden" (only in the German version of the page [3], in
english it is something like: "the colored document icons, which were
removed under the regime of Oracle despite the protest of the users").
I understand this as some form of taking revenge on Oracle (but this
might only be my interpretation), which, I think, anybody in the
community should avoid at all, given the generous move of Oracle to
donate OpenOffice.org to ASF. And of course, it somehow feels funny
given the fact that the key members of TOOo were originally in favor
of the change [4].

While "White Label Office" seems to be on the okay side legally
(though the use of the logo with the gulls is somehow questionable,
with [5] suggesting that Oracle saw it as their trademark, too), I do
not think that I will help very much in bringing AOO forward. I do not
think that anybody in corporate will switch from OpenOffice.org to a
software called "White Label Office", so only home users misguided by
misleading articles in computer magazines, suggesting "White Label
Office" as an official OpenOffice.org release might use it.


Indeed, the use of the gull logos is problematic, since they're a clear 
identifier of the software product itself.




So I think, the only reasonable thing would be for ASF to release an
OOo 3.3.1 if there is consesus that such a version (I suspect that it
is needed, however, given the big progress of AOO and the fact that a
lot of things will have to change in AOO 3.4 anyhow; but this is just
my $.02), maybe even provided/compiled by TOOo.

But - as this directly stoke into my eye when trying "White Label
Office" - if done so, it will clearly not be allowed to have a
"Donate..." button on the Welcome Screen as "White Label Office" now
has (btw: I would advise not to use t...@openoffice.org as PayPal
account as it negatively adds to the image of trying to be "official"
and will be aw

Re: Off topic

[Shane Curcuru]

On 2011-12-15 6:03 PM, Rob Weir wrote:

On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 5:44 PM, Graham Lauder  wrote:




The evidence actually reveals the complete opposite.  A vast vibrant community
with all the tension and  foibles that brings with it, that produced, marketed
and distributed a well featured and reliable Office suite to a community of
probably tens of millions of users.  Could we have done some things better, of
course, nothing is ever perfect but it was never as bad as you and others have
been painting it.



OOo was a failure because it only worked as a recipient of corporate
charity.


First off, the real reason that the previous OpenOffice.org project - as 
a project - is now dead is because Oracle made a business decision to 
kill the project.  That's why part of The Apache Way is about having a 
healthy and diverse community, so that one for-profit corporation's 
whims of changing it's business model don't necessarily kill an 
otherwise great open source project that other people are passionate 
about working on.


Secondly, the rest of this thread is off topic, and personally, I don't 
see arguing over theories and business models and the past helping 
actually get the first AOO build running.  ooo-dev@ should be about 
helping the community work together to plan and do work to move the 
project forward, not trying to convince each other of our own world views.


But that's just me.

- Shane

Re: Cleanup of Docs section of OOo wiki?

[Shane Curcuru]

On 2011-12-18 7:01 AM, Jean Weber wrote:
...snip...

Just checking: when editing am I supposed to be in the raw HTML? (This
isn't a problem; I actually prefer to edit in the code. I'm just
checking that I'm not missing something.)


It depends.  When editing, you'll be editing the checked-in source that 
generates that particular page.


In some cases, this is HTML, because that's what we have checked in.  In 
other cases, it will be .mdtext, or Markdown syntax, because that's 
what's checked in (and is auto-converted into HTML by the build process 
underneath the CMS system).


Best overall ref:
http://www.apache.org/dev/cmsref.html

But note: Dave and many others have done a huge amount of work with the 
ooo-site build, which uses a variety of different formats and builders 
to make the site work.


- Shane

Re: A timeline for an Apache OO release

[Shane Curcuru]

On 2011-12-17 12:00 PM, Ross Gardler wrote:

On 17 December 2011 16:57, Donald Harbison  wrote:

On Sat, Dec 17, 2011 at 11:54 AM, Ross Gardler
wrote:


A further, related question (I'm working on a blog piece) would we say
"Apache OpenOffice (incubating) plans to release a reference
implementation of the OpenOffice.org suite in ...", or is some other
phrasing preferred?

What's your definition of a reference build? Would an official Apache

release of OpenOffice 3.4 meet that definition?


That's a good question and I think is probably what I'm asking ;-)

I'm a little confused as to what brand the release will push, Apache
OpenOffice or OpenOffice.org.


The PPMC voted a while back to call their product "Apache OpenOffice". 
I would expect the primary branding will be updated to reflect that in 
various places, including the main icons.


I strongly urge the PPMC to consider continuing the OOo version numbers 
- 3.4 or 3.5 or the like.  While many of us, as software engineers, have 
a detailed understanding of release number nuances, the vast majority of 
the rest of humanity does not have a clue.  They'll expect - presuming 
we're showing them that we're the obvious "next" release of an 
OpenOffice.org-like product to install - to see something in the 3.x line.


The most important thing that I see Ross asking for is our best 
projection at the big picture; the very basic bits of the marketing 
message.  That's what needs to be told to the world.  The rest is just 
details for the podling committers to continue to work out.  (Obviously, 
immensely important and hard details!  But still - mostly just details 
that the vast majority of humanity will never care about.)


- Shane

Re: Too many lists

[Shane Curcuru]

A side note:

On 2011-12-14 11:33 PM, Raphael Bircher wrote:
...snip...

the ooo-dev@i.a.o
is one of the moast active ML at the whole Apche project.


For those interested in activity statistics:

  http://pulse.apache.org/#statistics

ooo-dev@ is clearly in the top 5 most active lists at the ASF recently.

This is a difficult situation, especially because the podling is still 
in the Incubator.  We have to simultaneously ensure that the core 
community of committers gets a shared sense of purpose, so they can 
become a healthy community in terms of applying the Apache Way.  We also 
have to - in the case of AOO - attract plenty of new contributors in all 
sorts of areas, especially non-development ones.


We are adding new lists.  We should just be cautious and very clear on 
how and when we add them to ensure that there's sufficient interested - 
and Apache Way clueful - participants on any new lists.


It would be very very helpful if someone with an end-user writer 
experience tried to better explain what each of the different lists are 
for (in the perspective of a new person) at 
/openofficeorg/mailing-lists.html  Similarly, it would be useful to have 
more pointers to that page, so newcomers can quickly and easily 
understand where they might want to ask questions (or, if they're users, 
perhaps the forums...)


- Shane

Re: Too many lists

[Shane Curcuru]

On 2011-12-14 6:26 PM, Ross Gardler wrote:

I'm really concerned about the tendency of the AOO project to keep
proposing and seriously considering new lists (well that is probably
over stating it, but I am genuinely concerned).


I've tried to share this concern as well.



Each time you create a list you separate the community from itself. It
should not happen until there is a proven need for it. Splitting the
community in this way leads to questions like "which list should this
be on" and subsequently "which list should I search to find the answer
to this".

The most recent example is the I10n proposal. It will, probably,
become necessary to create such a list in the future. But i10n affects
everyone, not just those doing translations. The discussion about how
to structure the I10n effort in AOO should happen here where everyone
can easily find it.


Suggestion: instead of creating two Italian lists, create only the 
users-italian@ (whatever name) one.


Then create the i10n@ list, and use that for the dev-italian@ work - or 
any other development work in different languages.  That way, people 
working on code or translations in different languages all have one 
"home" for the time being.


Yes, some Italian discussion will be moot for the other folks on the 
list, but given that everyone on the list is focused on various kinds of 
internationalization, they will be tolerant of different language 
conversations.


Just a suggestion... not sure if it works, but it's worth thinking about.

- Shane



Clear email subjects will allow people to quickly skip over emails on
topics they are not concerned about, but it ensures that nobody is
forced off into a quiet corner where they are all alone.

Ross

Re: [PROPOSAL] Setup of ooo-users-it and ooo-project-it mailing lists

[Shane Curcuru]

How much traffic do the existing Italian lists get?

My first suggestion would be to create only a single list for Italian 
discussions about AOO, instead of two lists.  If the single list gets 
too crowded, then split it into two lists later - but only split it 
later if it's clear we need separate lists from the amount of traffic it 
gets.


While I definitely understand the desire to have some user focus to some 
of the lists (who are probably not very tolerant of lots of technical 
discussions), and have a place to discuss project issues, I'm really 
concerned that we're simply making more and more lists, and will end up 
like OOo was with too many lists.


But that's just my suggestion, and sorry, I don't speak Italian.

- Shane

On 2011-12-11 9:55 AM, Andrea Pescetti wrote:

The Italian OpenOffice.org community relies on mailing lists (some with
several hundreds subscribers) for user support, discussions and project
coordination. While these are a legacy asset, I see it necessary that
Apache OpenOffice provides a replacement for these lists as part of the
infrastructure migration. Depending on the situation on Oracle servers,
we might start using the new lists gradually or immediately.

For the time being, we would map the existing (12) Italian lists to
- A support list, named ooo-users-it at incubator.apache.org
- A project list, named ooo-project-it at incubator.apache.org

We will revise the list names when the project graduates; for the time
being, I propose to use the "ooo" prefix for continuity and consistency
with the existing lists, and to use "ooo-project-it" instead of
"ooo-general-it" since it is much easier to understand for us.

The three moderators of the Italian OpenOffice.org lists are available
to continue their tasks in the new infrastructure:
- Davide Dozza
- Andrea Pescetti
- Paolo Pozzan

If there are no objections to the above proposal within 72 hours, I will
invoke Lazy Consensus and will create a JIRA issue.

Regards,
Andrea.

Re: [VOTE][RESULT] Trademark and Brand

[Shane Curcuru]

On 2011-11-30 1:55 PM, Lawrence Rosen wrote:

Folks,

I notice that you're leaning toward "Apache OpenOffice".


Actually the PPMC held a formal vote and specifically chose this name, 
so it's their plan of record, and not just leaning towards.



Please proceed cautiously and get proper legal advice first. On first
blush, this sounds and looks very much like the OpenOffice trademark
that Oracle already had to work around. Simply putting Apache in
front of something doesn't necessarily distinguish it from other
trademarks.


We also have different objectives (and a vastly different set of 
resources) than Oracle has with it's corporate trademark strategy.  So 
from a policy standpoint, I still support the name, and the PPMC should 
feel free to move ahead with their rebranding.


I will work with VP, Legal to get at least some form of feedback from 
counsel on the issues that may come up from using this name.  The 
podling does need to be aware that there are holders of "OpenOffice" as 
a registered trademark in certain jurisdictions, so the AOO podling and 
future TLP will need to be diligent in ensuring that we always properly 
refer to our own products with the "Apache" in front.




For example, I imagine that Apache Firefox would be resisted by
Mozilla.

NOTE: This email is not legal advice.


I didn't imagine that it was, but that's something that is very 
important for our PPMC to realize: you (Larry) are explicitly *not* 
serving as counsel for the ASF either on this matter or in any other 
capacities currently.  Merely as an interested ASF member commenting on 
one of our very interesting projects.


- Shane



/Larry




-Original Message- From: Shane Curcuru
[mailto:a...@shanecurcuru.org] Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2011
6:56 AM To: tradema...@apache.org; ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: [VOTE][RESULT] Trademark and Brand

Note: yes, you should explicitly email trademarks@ if you have a
specific brand question that needs a direct answer.  Thanks.

On 2011-11-29 8:58 AM, Rob Weir wrote:

In case it was not clear, we're waiting for a "go-ahead" from
Shane before taking the rebranding to the next step, e.g.
updating website, revising the logo, communicating the change,
etc.


+1, Apache OpenOffice is the perfect name for the podling.

Have folks thought about a final logo yet?  (Note: that's not at
all required, I'm just curious - and am wondering how to make a
smooth looking logo including the "Apache" with the gulls)



Also, one of the incubator graduation checklist items is:

"Make sure that the requested project name does not already exist
and check www.nameprotect.com to be sure that the name is not
already trademarked for an existing software product."


I have not seen any issue in similar TM searches.

- Shane



It would be good to know whether this is something that Shane
does as part of this approval project, or whether this is
something we do. (And if we do it, then how do we get a login?).

Finally, I've seen other podlings call for a vote on
general.i.a.o

for

a podling name change, e.g., HMS to Ambari.  Is this required?

-Rob

...snip...

Re: Trademark Clearance: Apache OpenOffice

[Shane Curcuru]

On 2011-12-01 10:56 AM, Donald Harbison wrote:

The PPMC has approved the trademark and brand for the project and
product as 'Apache OpenOffice'[1].

We request confirmation that the ASF has registered the trademark in the
US.


Trademark for what, specifically?  You don't have an available software 
product yet.  ;-)


Trademarks - at least in the US - only have being as an identifier tying 
a specific product to a specific organization that produces that 
product, so as to prevent consumer confusion over the source of the 
actual goods (typically for us, the actual software product downloads).


Normally we would not process trademark registrations - which take 
resources and funding - for podlings.  But this may be a special case, 
so once the AOO PPMC has a publicly downloadable release of a useable 
software product called "Apache OpenOffice", we can discuss if we are 
willing to start the registration process for the podling, or if we wait 
(as we usually would) for you to graduate to TLP.


In any case, you should certainly treat Apache OpenOffice as our 
trademark for our website and the product we plan to offer, and use a TM 
by it as noted in the branding policy.




What is the ASF guidelines for using 'Apache OpenOffice' worldwide?


Currently, the same as all the rest of our TLP projects (i.e., when AOO 
wants to graduate): make sure your website and product comply with the 
branding policy:


  http://www.apache.org/foundation/marks/pmcs

Given that our only real presence is on the web, we don't have specific 
policies for different jurisdictions at this time.


- Shane



[1]http://s.apache.org/O3P

Re: [VOTE][RESULT] Trademark and Brand

[Shane Curcuru]

Note: yes, you should explicitly email trademarks@ if you have a 
specific brand question that needs a direct answer.  Thanks.


On 2011-11-29 8:58 AM, Rob Weir wrote:

In case it was not clear, we're waiting for a "go-ahead" from Shane
before taking the rebranding to the next step, e.g. updating website,
revising the logo, communicating the change, etc.


+1, Apache OpenOffice is the perfect name for the podling.

Have folks thought about a final logo yet?  (Note: that's not at all 
required, I'm just curious - and am wondering how to make a smooth 
looking logo including the "Apache" with the gulls)




Also, one of the incubator graduation checklist items is:

"Make sure that the requested project name does not already exist and
check www.nameprotect.com to be sure that the name is not already
trademarked for an existing software product."


I have not seen any issue in similar TM searches.

- Shane



It would be good to know whether this is something that Shane does as
part of this approval project, or whether this is something we do.
(And if we do it, then how do we get a login?).

Finally, I've seen other podlings call for a vote on general.i.a.o for
a podling name change, e.g., HMS to Ambari.  Is this required?

-Rob

...snip...

Re: Can we update our migration status table?

[Shane Curcuru]

On 2011-11-27 9:53 PM, Dave Fisher wrote:


On Nov 27, 2011, at 6:20 PM, TJ Frazier wrote:

...snip...

Two quick comments: (1) We're seriously abandoning Registration? I
wonder what Marketing (ours and ASF's) thinks about that?


Who is "Marketing"?

People like the most excellent Sally, VP of Marketing & Publicity for 
the ASF are primarily here to provide additional services for Apache 
projects that ask for them - not to direct how Apache projects do their 
marketing.  So any marketing that this PPMC thinks it needs is what to 
consider, not what someone else says you need.




While we must abandon the registration in the Kenai database at
Oracle. We need not abandon registration. As far as I can tell there
are new constraints.

(a) We need volunteers to propose how they are willing to work to
replace it with a new registration system. (b) That system must not
provide an openoffice.org email forwarder / anonymous email address.
(c) It will be a completely new and fresh registration database. (d)
Apache Infrastructure needs to be asked to host it, or the PPMC will
need to agree about an external location. (e) The volunteers will
need to be able to maintain the system.

Strange idea. Is it possible to make either MediaWiki or Bugzilla
registration double as user registration?

Our mentors will no doubt think of a couple more requirements.


- If you want it, have a specific and detailed proposal that includes 
how to maintain the registration database with PPMC volunteers in the future


- Do not expose the ASF or this project to any additional legal risks, 
especially considering privacy laws (for example, in the US or Europe)





(2) Both Registration and Crash Reporter have code links, i.e.,
will require code changes in the product so that users aren't sent
to dead ends.


Does the project want a Crash Reporter? Possibly again volunteers
with a proposal and negotiation with Infrastructure are needed.

Regards, Dave


Personally I'm -0 on a user registration, but +1 on crash reporting if 
there's PPMC energy to make it happen.  As the only major end-user 
facing project at Apache, getting better details from crash reports 
would be very useful.


- Shane

Re: Non-Apache maintenance release for OOo 3.3?

[Shane Curcuru]

On 2011-11-22 4:06 PM, Louis R Suárez-Potts wrote:
...

Can I suggest an agenda for a meeting—teleconference, I suppose, or its 
newfangled equivalent—where we place those items that Martin (hi Martin) 
mentions as well as the concerns Rob expresses?


We have a mailing list that is made for just this purpose, right here. 
Heck, we even have a mailing list that's privately archived, if people 
really feel the need to express private thoughts about possibly 
unannounced business plans over at ooo-private@.


We don't need a group call.  We need people to actually engage here on 
(one of) the Apache lists, to work on the actual Apache OpenOffice project.


- Shane

Re: oooforum.org

[Shane Curcuru]

+1 as well, your thread really is not a good description of the thought 
process here, nor is the reference to the "Apache group" (which means 
something different) a good idea.


It would be really, really helpful to find a way for PPMC members on 
this list to work directly with the server admins for oooforum to talk; 
this should be a positive engagement, not a negative one.


- Shane

On 2011-11-22 9:40 AM, RGB ES wrote:

2011/11/22 Andrew Douglas Pitonyak



I posted this to their forum, see if it may motivate some people there

http://www.oooforum.org/forum/**viewtopic.phtml?p=456167#**456167




I don't think that some emails on the AOO mailing list can be considered as
an "Apache petition". There is nothing "official" on this thread, IMO, just
people worried about the situation and some random thoughts.
I think you need to rephrase your post.

Ricardo

Re: [OT] Re: [WWW][Policy] Participate! - Rewriting contributing.openoffice.org

[Shane Curcuru]

On 2011-11-21 1:35 AM, eric b wrote:
...

So why do you protect people like you do with Hagar Delest ?

Refuse other people to know all the people working with them is exactly
the beginning of such Monarchy : people are not equal in your system.


Because that's ASF policy in terms of accepting iCLAs and allowing 
committers to have access.  It has nothing to do with Hagar.  It's also 
not going to change.  It's also not going to allow or become a monarchy.




Remember : I only ask that PPMC know the real name of everybody in the
PPMC, nothing else. How can we trust people if we don't know who they are ?


"Get used to disappointment."

...

I also think it's pretty clear from the discussions here by the most
active PPMC members (in terms of actual commits, not mailing list
traffic) that this PPMC explicitly does not want to re-form any of the
structures from the previous OpenOffice.org project.



I have perfectly understood, but you'll probably have to distrubute some
roles too. This is urgent.


Why do you say that?  What roles besides sufficiently diverse PPMC 
members and enough committers to work on the code base does the podling 
need?


...


In return, I got your sarcasms.


Apologies if my style was misinterpreted; I was not trying to be 
sarcastic in my previous reply.  Just trying to point out the very real 
differences between how Apache projects are run and how the previous 
OpenOffice.org project was run.  Differences that will be enforced if 
the project wishes to graduate to become a full Apache project.


- Shane

Re: Source Code Sponsor of OOo

[Shane Curcuru]

On 2011-11-21 6:46 AM, Martin Hollmichel wrote:

Shane,

the reference to the Apache Project is required here, agreed. We are
reworking the content of the pages to make the message more clear, your
guidance on how to point to Apache OpenOffice project is appreciated here,

Martin


This is a good starting point:
  http://www.apache.org/foundation/marks/faq/#integrateswith

Note that OpenOffice.org, the OpenOffice.org logo, and various other OOo 
related marks are registered trademarks of the ASF in the US and many 
other countries.


- Shane



On 11/21/11 2:19 AM, Shane Curcuru wrote:

Note that the listed page is in no way associated with the ASF nor the
AOO podling, and as best I can tell is directly infringing on a number
of registered trademarks of the ASF. I will be sending the admins of
that website an email shortly demanding that that page and similar
fundraising pages are taken down, and that their attempts (as it seems
from that page) to create what I can only imagine would be called
OpenOffice.org 3.4 cease, and immediately start using a new,
non-infringing name.

At the ASF, our software is *always* free (as in no cost); the ASF
will *never* charge for either our source code our or project's
software product releases.

Any time you see someone stating or implying that you need to pay for
any ASF-hosted code you should be suspicious.

- Shane

On 2011-11-20 12:44 PM, Thomas Horn wrote:

Hi all,

I've read on http://teamopenoffice.org/en/become-a-partner.html that
you could become a "Source Code Sponsor" with your named displayed in
OpenOffice.org 3.4 by paying EUR 5000.

Do you really thinks that this is a good idea? I think that will lower
the neutrality of the Apache Foundation as I before wasn't under the
impression that you could buy yourself into Apache software.

Greetings from
Thomas

Re: [WWW][Policy] Rewriting contributing.openoffice.org

[Shane Curcuru]

A general observation: sooner is better.  Personally, I would rather see 
possibly incomplete pages hosted on ASF hardware (and with our 
trademarks, terms, etc.) sooner rather than waiting for everything to be 
completed on the staging site for some grand migration.


It's been more than long enough to let the world see the new versions of 
various pages, even if they're not as pretty as we might want yet.


- Shane

Re: Source Code Sponsor of OOo

[Shane Curcuru]

Note that the listed page is in no way associated with the ASF nor the 
AOO podling, and as best I can tell is directly infringing on a number 
of registered trademarks of the ASF.  I will be sending the admins of 
that website an email shortly demanding that that page and similar 
fundraising pages are taken down, and that their attempts (as it seems 
from that page) to create what I can only imagine would be called 
OpenOffice.org 3.4 cease, and immediately start using a new, 
non-infringing name.


At the ASF, our software is *always* free (as in no cost); the ASF will 
*never* charge for either our source code our or project's software 
product releases.


Any time you see someone stating or implying that you need to pay for 
any ASF-hosted code you should be suspicious.


- Shane

On 2011-11-20 12:44 PM, Thomas Horn wrote:

Hi all,

I've read on http://teamopenoffice.org/en/become-a-partner.html that
you could become a "Source Code Sponsor" with your named displayed in
OpenOffice.org 3.4 by paying EUR 5000.

Do you really thinks that this is a good idea? I think that will lower
the neutrality of the Apache Foundation as I before wasn't under the
impression that you could buy yourself into Apache software.

Greetings from
Thomas

Re: oooforum.org

[Shane Curcuru]

On 2011-11-20 12:35 PM, Simon Phipps wrote:


On 20 Nov 2011, at 16:20, Shane Curcuru wrote:



If you have an actual concern about improper use of any Apache
marks, then I suggest you take action to ensure that the
appropriate ASF (P)PMC or officer knows about the *specific*
situation.


That's great advice in the general case.  Given the specific URL is
in this thread, that you are known to follow this list pretty closely
and are the officer in question, is there any further action
necessary in this specific case?

S.


Yes.

Merely because I read this list as a mentor does not mean that I have 
the attention or brainwidth to understand what the PPMC's specific issue 
is with this site, and how important it is to them.


There are probably hundreds of thousands of potentially infringing 
websites on Apache marks.  We, like most trademark holders, need to 
prioritize which ones are most important.  The most important 
prioritization factor for our efforts is the input of our (P)PMCs, since 
they are the group that is most affected by potential mis-use of their 
specific brands.


So actually I'm looking to some of the PPMC members to let trademarks@ 
(which is read by many more people than just me) know what specific 
issues they want addressed.


- Shane

Re: [OT] Re: [WWW][Policy] Participate! - Rewriting contributing.openoffice.org

[Shane Curcuru]

On 2011-11-20 3:19 AM, eric b wrote:

Hi,


Le 20 nov. 11 à 01:30, Kay Schenk a écrit :


OK, I truly hate to make a comment like this, but...

eric b, any chance you could take your issues with Louis somewhere other
than this list?


Kay has a point, and in a more established Apache project this kind of 
discussion would *not* be appreciated.  However I understand that 
there's a lot of history in the previous OpenOffice.org project, 
especially with a lot of strong-willed individuals, so I'll contribute 
to this thread.



Everything I reported are facts, that you can verify in the archives.
I'm simply describing a system who caused a disaster in OpenOffice.org.
Louis was just one ot "the band".

If what people reported me is true, this "Monarchy" is still alive (I've
heard of "discussions with old Community Council") , and probably, there
is one plan behind the wood.


Do you have specific references to such behavior happening within an 
Apache project?


If you do not, well, then I can only say with my 9 years of experience 
being an Apache Member that Monarchies are *not* tolerated at Apache, 
and if the relevant (P)PMC can't ensure that the community acts in an 
open and meritocratic way, that either the Incubator PMC or the board 
will step in to ensure that it does (or, will terminate the 
podling/project).


I can also say with my AOO Mentor hat that from my perspective, the 
Community Council of the previous OpenOffice.org project is gone, 
ceased, no longer exists as an officially recognized organization.  A 
lot of past organizational structures that were related to the Sun or 
Oracle led project in the past are gone; it's just that Oracle never 
bothered to officially announce the end of them (as best I can see). 
It's obvious that a number of people who used to have titles or roles in 
those organizations are hoping to get them back or otherwise continue to 
use them, but they have no meaning within the governance of this Apache 
podling.


I also think it's pretty clear from the discussions here by the most 
active PPMC members (in terms of actual commits, not mailing list 
traffic) that this PPMC explicitly does not want to re-form any of the 
structures from the previous OpenOffice.org project.



As volunteer, not being paid, and working a lot on the code in my spare
time, I'd like to concentrate me on something ethical and true, to avoid
this occur again, and see the MERIT and TRUE CONTRIBUTIONS (not only
code) being the motor, but not politics, nor mind manipulators.


If I have some doubts, or if ever the old crappy system is back, I
promise to immediately stop to contribute to Apache OpenOffice.org,
without regret.


Yes, you've said this before (in terms of leaving the project if you 
couldn't know Hagar's true identity), which I have to say from my 
perspective doesn't help your argument any (at least not in the typical 
Apache Way mindset).


- Shane





This is, I believe, the second personal rant I've seen like this, and
I, for one, don't really feel it's appropriate for the venue.



Well, if you read carefully :
http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Community_Council_Log_20091217

... you'll read that I "alienated developers" : [15:27:41] louis_to and
the fact that the lead seems to alienate a lot of develoopers,
arccording to reports


Please be curious : notice the name of the people present, and think
what's happening with them today.

My reaction is not a rant, but rather some "please, Apache people, open
your eyes".



Regards,
Eric

Re: oooforum.org

[Shane Curcuru]

On 2011-11-20 6:28 AM, Simon Phipps wrote:


On 20 Nov 2011, at 09:33, Peter Junge wrote:


Hi,

is there any admin of oooforum.org around here?

It's getting spamed with really disgusting content on the front page.


I don't see that, but I do see unlicensed use of Apache trademarks.

S.



If you have an actual concern about improper use of any Apache marks, 
then I suggest you take action to ensure that the appropriate ASF (P)PMC 
or officer knows about the *specific* situation.


PPMC members should review the guidelines, although that remember as a 
podling you should be working with trademarks@ first before 
communicating formally with any third parties:


  http://www.apache.org/foundation/marks/responsibility.html#police

- Shane

Re: [WWW][Policy] Rewriting contributing.openoffice.org

[Shane Curcuru]

I can actually answer part of this question somewhat definitively:

On 2011-11-18 9:07 PM, MiguelAngel wrote:

El 19/11/11 0:50, Rob Weir escribió:

On Fri, Nov 18, 2011 at 6:23 PM, Louis Suárez-Potts
  wrote:



I pretty much did the initial draft of the page and set the logic of
what counted as "participate" and "contribute".  And I was raked over
the coals by the United Developers of the World who critiqued my
conflation of any old contribution with sophisticated development.
Point taken, they were right, I was wrong, but the point was to grow
the project and to thus justify its existence. Development would come,
once the market was established.

So now we are here. What do we want out of this? Do we want to re-do
the strategy of yore and expand the market?


Hi Louis,  I was making a much narrower point, that if I were looking
to donate cash to an open source project, I would not think to look
under a link that read "I want to participate".  That was my only
point.  I wasn't expressing an opinion on code versus other forms of
participation.  We need and welcome volunteers of all kinds.

-Rob

Hi Louis, Rob,
Please, who is ** we **?
Maybe can be misunderstood.
Miguel Ángel


The we in "We need and welcome volunteers of all kinds" refers to the 
Apache OpenOffice PPMC and it's set of active committers on this mailing 
list.


I think this is another significant difference between how the previous 
OpenOffice.org project ran, and how the Apache OpenOffice podling runs. 
 From discussion here and elsewhere, it's clear that in the past there 
were a *lot* of people who claimed various relationships with the 
previous OpenOffice.org project.  Then, as now, it wasn't often clear 
what, specifically, those relationships were, or who could 
authoritatively speak on behalf of the project (well, in that case, 
various projects, like education, calc, marketing, etc. etc.)


For Apache OpenOffice, the governance is clear: PPMC members vote on 
releases and new committers, and may, in consultation with the PPMC, 
speak about the project with some authority.  All committers may checkin 
code and make proposals for the direction of the project.


Contributors on Apache OpenOffice are welcomed, and encouraged to 
participate more by submitting patches, ideas, proposals, and whatever 
else you can think of that would help.  But they are not officially part 
of the project and may not speak on the project's behalf.


Separately, the idea of "admins", "leads", and various other titles from 
the previous OpenOffice.org project is no more.  Apache OpenOffice has 
PPMC members, committers, and now - while it's in incubation - mentors. 
 There are no other titles normally given out at Apache projects, nor 
are there *any* long-term titles for Apache projects other than a PMC 
chair (which is after AOO graduates).


Justin Erenkrantz' presentation about the Apache Way has a great way to 
think about leadership in Apache projects:


"Whomever has the best idea 'leads'... until a better idea is presented 
to the group, and then that new person 'leads'."


- Shane, AOO mentor

Re: [WWW][Policy] Rewriting contributing.openoffice.org

[Shane Curcuru]

Clarifying an important point again...

On 2011-11-18 6:23 PM, Louis Suárez-Potts wrote:
...snip...

I'd also also like for the fundraising to be clearly identified with
the project. Right now, we use SPI and—not sure if "still" is
relevant—Team OOo. (It probably is not; and probably a foundation or
more humble and simpler bank account possessed of a humanoid
treasurer, would be sufficient and even gooder.)


Fundraising at the ASF is handled centrally, on behalf of all Apache 
projects.  And no, neither SPI nor Team OOo are involved with 
fundraising for any Apache project; I'm working to address that 
misconception shortly.  The only group at the ASF that does fundraising 
is found on the fundraising@ privately archived mailing list, or on the 
main Donate/Sponsor pages:


  http://www.apache.org/foundation/contributing.html

Obviously all Apache projects link to the main fundraising pages, and 
the AOOo podling is welcome to have it's own explanations of why it's 
important to donate to the ASF along with a link to the donation page.


It is an important to-do for the PPMC to remove any external donation 
buttons or direct links from any of our websites, as well.


- Shane

Re: Non-Apache maintenance release for OOo 3.3?

[Shane Curcuru]

On 2011-11-18 11:16 AM, Stefan Taxhet wrote:

Hi Don, all,

Am 17.11.2011 15:34, schrieb Donald Harbison:

On Thu, Nov 17, 2011 at 9:14 AM, Stefan Taxhet wrote:

Am 17.11.2011 02:23, schrieb Rob Weir:

...snip...

What is your proposal for the name of your release? Please make a
proposal

for what you wish to name your release.


Rob described the two options very concise. The preference would be to
release "OpenOffice.org 3.3.1" with consent of the home of development
work for future releases.

...
The Apache Open Office PPMC is the only organization that should be 
releasing a software product using just the name "OpenOffice.org". 
Apache trademark policy is clear that third parties are *not* allowed to 
use Apache brands in confusing or infringing manners on software products.


We offer broad guidelines for using a "Powered By" style of naming for 
third party software products that are either built on top of, extend, 
or otherwise use Apache code but add your own code to your product:


  http://www.apache.org/foundation/marks/faq/#products

Note that we'd certainly consider permitting other phrases besides the 
"Powered By" phrase, like "Built Using", etc. (but not "Distribution" or 
"Release" or other similarly non-specific phrases).  This allows third 
parties to create their own, independently branded products while still 
allowing third parties to show the obvious relationship to the 
underlying Apache product.


-Shane

Re: Time for the ASF to send an Open Letter?

[Shane Curcuru]

On 2011-11-17 7:24 AM, Kazunari Hirano wrote:
...snip...

If we (Apache) use OpenOffice as product name and Apache OpenOffice as
project name, then we can give Team OOo the OpenOffice.org brand and
trademark?


No, the ASF will not do that.

- Shane, VP, Brand Management

Re: [VOTE][RESULT] Trademark and Brand

[Shane Curcuru]

On 2011-11-17 5:06 AM, tora - Takamichi Akiyama wrote:

Could you take account of voter turnout for the PPMC?
And take the sampling error into account for the others?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sampling_error


This is not a poll or sampling of some large population.  This is a vote 
amongst the Podling Project Management Committee members of the Apache 
OpenOffice (Incubating) podling.  Only PPMC votes are binding.


The fact that we allow other, non-PPMC members to express opinions or 
cast +1/-1 votes in no way means that we're attempting an accurate 
sample of all users.  Only the votes of PPMC members count towards the 
actual decisions.


This is a critical point to understand about how Apache projects are 
run.  While we appreciate feedback, suggestions, and contributions from 
all of our users, the individuals who have shown merit on the project 
and have officially been voted in as committers or PPMC members are the 
ones who make final decisions on the project.


- Shane


If those figures are relatively inadequate, please consider what we can
be for more appropriate ways to get an actual result.

In general, with less than 100 votes, we cannot estimate whole
population because of large error.

Tora

On 11/17/2011 6:31 PM, Ian Lynch wrote:

Looks like an overall majority for Apache OpenOffice.


On 11/17/2011 10:21 AM, Donald Harbison wrote:
 > 14 TOTAL (a) Apache OpenOffice.org: 40.00%
 > 20 TOTAL (b) Apache OpenOffice: 57.14%
 > 1 TOTAL (c) Apache Open Office: 2.86%
 > 35 TOTAL PPMC VOTES

 > *OVERALL BALLOT RESULTS*
 > 30 TOTAL (a) Apache OpenOffice.org : 43.48%
 > 38 TOTAL (b) Apache OpenOffice : 55.07%
 > 1 TOTAL (c) Apache Open Office : 1.45%
 > 0 TOTAL d : 0.00%
 > 69 TOTAL VOTES

Re: Time for the ASF to send an Open Letter?

[Shane Curcuru]

I just want to make one observation that is critical to understanding 
how Apache projects work:


On 2011-11-16 11:56 AM, Martin Hollmichel wrote:
...snip...

The coding work we've done in the 3.3.1 is about some security and
bugfixing issues,

Martin


I would strongly urge everyone here to read the brief Code of Conduct 
for Apache projects here:


http://community.apache.org/newbiefaq.html#NewbieFAQ-IsthereaCodeofConductforApacheprojects?

In particular, the old saying that "If it didn't happen on a mailing 
list, it didn't happen." is critically important to understand.


I know that Martin and others have done a tremendous amount of work for 
the past OpenOffice.org project, and I bet that he and others will 
continue to create great code in the future OOo related ecosystem.


However the comment above is quite disingenuous, given that none of that 
work (as far as I can tell) in terms of code or planning has been here 
on ooo-dev@.


The Apache OpenOffice podling is truly happy to have people donate their 
work to the podling, and hopes more people will choose to contribute 
their work collaboratively here on the list.  We are also - as all 
Apache projects are - happy to have third parties take the code we 
produce under our permissive Apache License and use it for virtually any 
purpose they wish.  All that we ask when you take are code is that you 
follow the license, and that you respect our identity, brands, and 
trademarks.


- Shane, mentor for AOO podling

Re: Time for the ASF to send an Open Letter?

[Shane Curcuru]

On 2011-11-16 3:26 PM, Pedro Giffuni wrote:

Hi Martin;

--- On Wed, 11/16/11, Martin Hollmichel wrote:
...

On 11/16/11 6:33 PM, Ross Gardler wrote:

On 16 November 2011 16:56, Martin Hollmichel


wrote:



...


What kind of a "release" are you talking about. OOo
releases can only be made from the Apache Software
Foundation. Perhaps you are planning a downstream
release that conforms to our trademark policy.

Please let us know your plans.

we're offering to provide an interim release of
OpenOffice.org 3.3.1 with a joint messaging of ASF and Team
OpenOffice.org. This would fill the gap between the 3.3.0
release from beginning of this year (with some known severe
issues) and the first AOO release in the future. I'm
convinced that this proceeding will help strengthen the
trust in OpenOffice.org / AOO.


Based on the very little bit of information provided here on the Apache 
lists, I can't see how your plans would possibly be approved by the ASF.


Obviously, having more information about your plans, and being able to 
see your work in the form of patches or commits to the AOO podling's 
Subversion tree would be a great start to be able to do this kind of work.


So my first suggestion is to start doing some of the actual coding work 
here, on the ooo-dev@ list.  Then, work with the podling to show the 
PPMC that this is a good idea, and deserves to proceed together with the 
excellent progress the PPMC is making on the 3.4 release.


Then, if the PPMC has a clear consensus to work with such an interim 
release plan, we can discuss any trademark, legal, or press/messaging 
questions you might have.


- Shane





As much as we would like to do an interim release I am
afraid there are issues that won't make it possible:

- Apache releases have to be approved by the PPMC and
can only be released under an Apache License.
- The old OpenOffice.Org made available 3.4 RC, releasing
3.3.1 would not give the right signal wrt continuity.
- The ASF, through the PPMC, cannot approve code that it
hasn't seen and AFAICT Team OOo hasn't been very visible
here in the community (sorry if I just missed it).

This said, 3.4 is advancing very nicely. I don't want to
hurry things but I think we are moving in the right
direction.

Pedro.

Re: Mailing list user migration: Staging and volunteers

[Shane Curcuru]

On 2011-11-13 7:20 AM, Andrea Pescetti wrote:

On 25/10/2011 Rob Weir wrote:

Process for getting a new mailing list created is here:
http://www.apache.org/dev/committers.html#new-mailing-list
Probably makes sense to start with the largest NL communities first?


I had a look at this and at the mentioned EZMLM "Moderator's and
Administrator's Manual" to have an idea, and it seems that the moderator
role and its processes are quite different from what we are used to at
openoffice.org.

While I do have a general understanding now, I still miss some
information on how the lists are actually configured at Apache:


Yeah, there are some other usual FAQs that haven't been written up on 
that page yet.



- Must all moderation happen by e-mail through the -accept address and
similar? Isn't a web interface available?


- Moderation is done over email.  Each email you get has an -accept, 
-reject, and -allow reply address - if you send to the -allow, then that 
user's email address is whitelisted, and that email address can send 
mail in the future without going through moderation.



- The distinction between a "Moderator" and an "Administrator" is new to
me, and I realized that at it.openoffice.org I act much more as an
Administrator than a Moderator. My most frequent task is a user asking
me to change his e-mail address, which I have to do in two steps
(automatically subscribe the new address, then remove the old one; he
could do it himself of course, but often he experienced difficulties
while trying). Can this be done on the Apache lists too?


Yes, ezmlm allows moderators to remove and add other email addresses to 
a list.  It still sends a confirmation email, but it sends it to the 
moderator (i.e. you can do this without the user having to respond to 
anything.




- Can a lists be set up so that it automatically rejects posts from
non-members, sending a (possibly configurable) standard reply?


I'm pretty sure we have some subscriber-only lists, but you'd need to 
check with ASF Infra.  Normally you'd mail apm...@apache.org with 
specific questions about the details of mailing list setups.




- Can subject tags and e-mail footers be customized?


Yes, as Rob noted, moderators can send emails to custom addresses to 
check and set footers/headers etc., as well as get the list of subscribers.


Oh, and folks interested in mailing list statistics might like this:

  http://pulse.apache.org/

- Shane

Re: [VOTE] Trademark and Brand

[Shane Curcuru]

On 2011-11-09 7:47 PM, Donald Harbison wrote:

As promised, here's the ballot. Choose one, cast your vote.  If none of
them get more than 50% of the binding votes, we will start a ballot for the
top two contenders.

a) Apache OpenOffice.org
b) Apache OpenOffice
c) Apache Open Office
d) Apache Office


+1 b) Apache OpenOffice (non-binding)

- Shane, podling mentor

Re: OOo Business...

[Shane Curcuru]

Thanks Dave for including the links to some of the existing 
trademark-related pages.


There are a few high level points about branding at the ASF that are 
useful to have a better understanding of, very briefly:


- The ASF holds all trademarks on behalf of, and for the benefit of, 
each of it's projects.  This ensures that users can be assured in the 
long term that our brands will be managed fairly and evenly.


- One of my goals with trademark policy is to move to a state where many 
of the common requests are covered by existing FAQ entries.  So I'm 
hoping - over time, and as we codify more specific policy decisions for 
ways of using Apache brands that we're happy with.


A key point is that as an all volunteer organization, we need to try to 
provide as many answers in existing FAQs to let third parties find many 
answers themselves, or to allow us to simply respond to queries the the 
URL to a FAQ that addresses their issue.  In my experience on other 
projects, most requesters that have a FAQ entries, the requester is 
happy to simply get the link to the FAQ without having the community to 
vote and go through the whole process.


- Third parties with trademark requests need to be provided both a 
public and a private way to make requests.  We should certainly 
encourage people to submit questions on public lists; this helps the 
whole community.  But in some cases, a third party may have a new idea 
or project that they want to keep confidential; in those cases we need 
to respect the privacy of their request if needed (i.e., sometimes we 
should allow them to ask on ooo-private@).



I agree some key migration issues that the PPMC needs to address include:

- Better explaining to users and third parties how we expect people to 
use our brands - which in the near future will include two brands; the 
existing openoffice.org mark, and the to-be-decided mark like Apache 
OpenOffice for the project going forward.


- Figuring out a specific workflow for third parties to 1) check the 
FAQ, or other areas that may answer their question directly, or 2) a 
place to make a specific permission request.


- Shane Curcuru
  VP, Brand Management
  The Apache Software Foundation

P.S. Useful Trademark related documents at the ASF:

Formal policy:
  http://www.apache.org/foundation/marks/

What PMCs are required to do on their sites:
  http://www.apache.org/foundation/marks/pmcs.html

What PMC members are expected to be responsible for:
  http://www.apache.org/foundation/marks/responsibility.html

A basic step-by-step How To for PMCs who want to address potential 
infringements:

  http://www.apache.org/foundation/marks/reporting.html

Some key FAQ's (I want to expand this!) about specific trademark issues:
  http://www.apache.org/foundation/marks/faq

A listing (partial!) of Apache marks:
  http://www.apache.org/foundation/marks/list
(This definitely needs updating, especially to reflect which ones are 
registered marks in various jurisdictions).


Rationale section of the Domain Name policy, which I think is one of the 
best places (so far) that I've written that explains the *why* of hour 
our Apache brand policies are they way they are:

  http://www.apache.org/foundation/marks/domains.html#rationale

The Incubator's existing Podling branding requirements (should be 
updated to better explain and match the PMC requirements someday)

  http://incubator.apache.org/guides/branding.html

Re: Shutdown of openoffice.org email forwarder: How to notify users

[Shane Curcuru]

On 2011-11-10 11:09 AM, Louis Suárez-Potts wrote:
...snip...

I would argue for plan 1 and further have a bulletin posted to OOo
(this can be done) alerting people of it. It would also give me the
chance then to announce the closure of OOo, and its new life as a new
thing for old people like me (and young-uns, too).


Can you describe more what you mean when you say "give me the chance to 
announce the closure of OOo"?


I thought that was what the PPMC as a whole was doing with the site 
migration, the official project blog, the migration wiki page, etc.


- Shane, curious

Re: [DISCUSS][WWW] Current Polish web site -- pl.openoffice.org

[Shane Curcuru]

On 2011-11-10 8:44 AM, Kay Schenk wrote:

On Wed, Nov 9, 2011 at 3:06 PM, Dave Fisher  wrote:

...snip...

Warning - using the webgui the first time on ooo-site it is suggested that
you brew a cup of coffee and come back in 10 minutes.



well I didn't use this -- just svn and the publish.pl CLI, but still .. oh
my!


I'll freely admit I don't always understand how the webgui for the CMS 
is doing it's magic.  But yes - depending on how you use it, the first 
time you edit a file using the webgui on a new source tree, it may need 
to complete a full checkout of that tree (on it's server), which might 
take a while before the build completes.


In most cases, after that, it uses the cached/previously checked out 
tree, so changes afterwards should be quick.


But this conversation does show a key "hidden" feature of the CMS: it 
makes site editing simple for everyone: both those who just want to 
tweak something while they're browsing a page, or for those who prefer 
the command line or are even just checking in interim files without 
looking to publish yet.


Thanks Joe!

- Shane

Re: Want to blog

[Shane Curcuru]

INFRA-4099 has been completed, so welcome Armin and Oliver to the OOO blog.

- Shane

On 2011-11-01 6:00 AM, Oliver-Rainer Wittmann wrote:

Hi Gavin,

On 01.11.2011 12:41, Gavin McDonald wrote:




-Original Message-
From: Marcus (OOo) [mailto:marcus.m...@wtnet.de]
Sent: Tuesday, 1 November 2011 9:13 PM
To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: Want to blog

Am 11/01/2011 11:46 AM, schrieb Armin Le Grand:

I wanted to blog about e.g. extended OLE attribute/geometry stuff in
http://blogs.apache.org/OOo/ to make new possibilities more known to
the public. Looks like if I have to do a JIRA request.

If there are no objections I will put in an Infra request to get added
as an blog author for the project's blog.


I've tried to send you an invitation for getting an author but it
failed.

Maybe

we have to wait 1-2 days before your user name is known everywhere at
ASF.


Blogs is not LDAP aware and so accounts need to be requested and then
created
(by me usually.)

At that stage you can invite Armin in though I usually do that at the
same
time.

I just need an ok from a PPMC member ...



Here is another Ok.

Can you also add myself to the blog world?
After a corresponding Ok from another PPMC member, of course.

Thanks in advance, Oliver.

Re: [DISCUSS]+[VOTE] Trademark and Branding

[Shane Curcuru]

On 2011-11-10 2:18 AM, Jürgen Schmidt wrote:
...snip...


i think it is important to know the possibilities later for a project name.

If we vote for a) and later on the project name would be the same and
the project Url would be openofficeorg.apache.org. Then i would say a
bad choice.


Note: the URL to the official community homepage of the project on the 
a.o site is not relevant at the moment, since there's no strict 
requirement for the full brand name of the project to be identical to 
the actual URL.


It would be fine to call it "Apache OpenOffice", and then have the 
community homepage of the project be ooo.apache.org, for example.  The 
URL only needs to be decided later, before the project graduates from 
incubation.


...snip...

So my question is where should the new product name be used all about?
Only on the intro screen, in the help system, in all written docu where
we use the product name. Or also as name for the install directory, menu
entries etc.


The new project name should be the primary branding of the product as an 
end user would see it on our websites.  I.e. it would be at the top of 
the web page, displayed in the logo (perhaps, depending on the graphical 
design), would say "Download FooBrandSoftware" in the links to the 
download page, and would be part of the actual filename of the primary 
download file that users would install from.


From a branding perspective, the full product branding does not need to 
be in the menubar, any directory or class or module names, nor similar 
areas - unless the project wishes to use them there.  I really don't 
think we need to worry about the details of the code and the bulk of the 
UI yet; that is a larger discussion that can happen once we actually 
pick a name.




I never liked the .org but have conditioned my brain to use it over the
past 14 years. Many people don't say OpenOffice.org but OpenOffice,
means it is more often used when you reference the product somewhere in
written form.


Personally, since the common usage is OpenOffice, I strongly prefer that 
form, as in Apache OpenOffice.


- Shane



Juergen





Just wondering if there will be a second vote for
the project name.

regards,

Pedro.

--- On Wed, 11/9/11, Donald Harbison wrote:


We've had a lengthy discussion on
ooo-marketing regarding trademark and
branding considerations and options. It's time we moved
forward and made a
decision in order to expedite the ongoing migration of the
web site and to
remove one more obstacle from the dev team.

We want to preserve and protect the historic OpenOffice.org
trademark. The
choice of an Apache name and new trademark will not impact
the historic
mark as granted to the Apache Software Foundation for
stewardship.

Since this is a major decision we felt it important to
bring it back to
ooo-dev for final discussion then vote. We have the choices
presented on
the wiki[1] for your reference.

[1]https://cwiki.apache.org/**confluence/display/OOOUSERS/**
Branding+Planning<

https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Branding+Planning>

Re: [DISCUSS]+[VOTE] Trademark and Branding

[Shane Curcuru]

On 2011-11-09 10:11 PM, Pedro Giffuni wrote:

Hi Shane;

OpenOffice.org is a brand the ASF owns now and I
don't want it diluted. I have also heard the name
is in some countries' legislation.


I'm not following your point here.  The project branding requirements 
mean that both the product and project names must start with "Apache 
...", so just "OpenOffice.org" is not an option as either name.


The existing trademark registration is not an issue (or, should not be, 
in my opinion) in terms of choosing a name for the project going 
forward.  I suggest that the PPMC needs to primarily think of what the 
future branding will be.


In terms of "keeping" the existing registration, I would not worry about 
that now.  My current thinking is that our keeping the domain name as a 
site that still distributes the past OpenOffice.org builds will be more 
than sufficient to defend that brand as long as will be pertinent for 
this project.


- Shane



I think Apache OpenOffice is a better name for
the project because it is shorter/simpler, and is
more catchy. TBH I wouldn't complain if it's the
name of the product too.

I am aware of projects that have subprojects that
later fork, maybe we will end up having, say
Apache OO Spellchecker :-).

cheers,

Pedro.

--- On Thu, 11/10/11, Shane Curcuru  wrote:


From: Shane Curcuru
Subject: Re: [DISCUSS]+[VOTE] Trademark and Branding
To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
Date: Thursday, November 10, 2011, 12:57 AM
On 2011-11-09 8:14 PM, Pedro Giffuni
wrote:

Hello;

An important question. The vote is for choosing the
product name, can the project name be different?

To make this clear: I would think it practical to
keep option (a) for the product, but option (b)
for the project.


One question: why would that be desirable?  I.e. what
is the benefit of
having a separate project name (i.e. the name of the
website and the PMC
here) versus the product name (i.e. the actual downloadable
releases in
the future)?

By way of comparison, all (I think) other Apache projects
use the same
terminology for the project name and the product name.

I would expect that the product and project would use the
same name
(whatever it is) unless there is a strong and clear
consensus among the
PPMC to explicitly use different names.

- Shane



Just wondering if there will be a second vote for
the project name.

regards,

Pedro.

--- On Wed, 11/9/11, Donald Harbison

wrote:



We've had a lengthy discussion on
ooo-marketing regarding trademark and
branding considerations and options. It's time we

moved

forward and made a
decision in order to expedite the ongoing

migration of the

web site and to
remove one more obstacle from the dev team.

We want to preserve and protect the historic

OpenOffice.org

trademark. The
choice of an Apache name and new trademark will

not impact

the historic
mark as granted to the Apache Software Foundation

for

stewardship.

Since this is a major decision we felt it

important to

bring it back to
ooo-dev for final discussion then vote. We have

the choices

presented on
the wiki[1] for your reference.

[1]https://cwiki.apache.org/**confluence/display/OOOUSERS/**
Branding+Planning<https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Branding+Planning>

Re: [DISCUSS]+[VOTE] Trademark and Branding

[Shane Curcuru]

On 2011-11-09 8:14 PM, Pedro Giffuni wrote:

Hello;

An important question. The vote is for choosing the
product name, can the project name be different?

To make this clear: I would think it practical to
keep option (a) for the product, but option (b)
for the project.


One question: why would that be desirable?  I.e. what is the benefit of 
having a separate project name (i.e. the name of the website and the PMC 
here) versus the product name (i.e. the actual downloadable releases in 
the future)?


By way of comparison, all (I think) other Apache projects use the same 
terminology for the project name and the product name.


I would expect that the product and project would use the same name 
(whatever it is) unless there is a strong and clear consensus among the 
PPMC to explicitly use different names.


- Shane



Just wondering if there will be a second vote for
the project name.

regards,

Pedro.

--- On Wed, 11/9/11, Donald Harbison  wrote:


We've had a lengthy discussion on
ooo-marketing regarding trademark and
branding considerations and options. It's time we moved
forward and made a
decision in order to expedite the ongoing migration of the
web site and to
remove one more obstacle from the dev team.

We want to preserve and protect the historic OpenOffice.org
trademark. The
choice of an Apache name and new trademark will not impact
the historic
mark as granted to the Apache Software Foundation for
stewardship.

Since this is a major decision we felt it important to
bring it back to
ooo-dev for final discussion then vote. We have the choices
presented on
the wiki[1] for your reference.

[1]https://cwiki.apache.org/**confluence/display/OOOUSERS/**
Branding+Planning

Re: [VOTE] Trademark and Brand

[Shane Curcuru]

On 2011-11-09 9:42 PM, Louis Suárez-Potts wrote:
...

[OT, and surely dumb: what happens to the old name, OpenOffice.org?
Apache now "owns" it, I believe. If the answer is long, and I expect
it is, and if it's already been answered, then just point me away and
I'll find it. If not, let's answer it? It needs address if only
because there are *many* companies and  orgs. using it.]


It's best to keep [VOTE] threads on topic.  If there are other questions 
on related or unrelated topics, please start a new thread.  (That is a 
good question, but it deserves it's own thread)


- Shane, wearing a mentor hat

Re: Do recent bugs filed against Libre 3.4 need to be refiled with apache tracker?

[Shane Curcuru]

Thank you, David, for looking to ensure that issues that might pertain 
to multiple projects are reported appropriately to each project.  We 
definitely appreciate the extra effort from our users!


Personally, I think it would be good to submit full independent bugs to 
each project's issue tracker.  Since the active development communities 
are notably different, this would make it easier for AOOo and LO 
developers to work on fixes in their respective projects.  But that's 
just my suggestion.


Thanks!
- Shane

On 2011-11-08 9:21 PM, David C. Rankin wrote:

Guys,

I apologize if this has been asked and answered, but over the past year
I have filed several bugs against Libre which would also apply to OO
3.4. How do you want to handle these types of issues? Do you review the
Libre tracker at freedesktop.org or do duplicates bugs need to be opened
in the apache tracker?

I presume you won't want duplicates filed, but is there some mechanism
in place to make sure those bugs don't slip through the cracks and
plague OO 3.4 the way they have Libre 3.4? May also be worth a note on
the http://incubator.apache.org/projects/openofficeorg.html page or the
https://issues.apache.org/ooo/ page. Thanks.

Re: Foundation policy for email forwarding service

[Shane Curcuru]

To add onto this policy with my brand management hat, I would strongly 
advise the AOOo PPMC to choose to not provide mail forwarding addresses 
@openoffice.org domain for project committers.


All committers already have @apache.org email addresses, which would be 
the best way to for active committers to show their participation in 
this new project, working in the Apache Way, called Apache OpenOffice 
going forward.


- Shane

On 2011-11-08 3:32 PM, Greg Stein wrote:

Hello everybody,

At the Board's face-to-face meeting here in Vancouver, we discussed
the issue of transferring [from Oracle to Apache] the set of
email-forwards for usernames in the openoffice.org domain. There are
certainly some legal concerns and some technical work to get through,
and I know the podling is working through that.

However, the Board felt it appropriate to set a general
Foundation-wide policy in terms of email forwarding services using the
Foundation's domains and brands. In short, *only* people directly
affiliated with the Foundation as a committer or Member are eligible
for email forwarding services using our domains.

The core of this issue is based on avoiding
confusion/misrepresentation based on sending email using our domains.
Just as I can no longer send mail using my old gst...@google.com or
gst...@microsoft.com addresses, we do not want to allow unaffiliated
third parties to send email using our brands/domains. Email addresses
using the @apache.org domain are provided for all committers once they
are voted/approved by one of our Project Management Committees (PMC)
and have returned an Individual Contributor License Agreement. Email
forwarding addresses using our other domains (such as @subversion.com,
@myfaces.org, or @openoffice.org) would be subject to all the above
rules, along with technical input and support from Infrastructure. The
PMCs associated with these extra domain(s) may set additional
requirements/policies, but the general recommendation of the Board is
to avoid all email forwarding services beyond @apache.org.

If you have any questions, then please feel to contact myself or the Board.

Cheers,
Greg Stein
Vice Chairman, Director,
Apache Software Foundation

Re: [Request] create ooo-disc...@incubator.apache.org mailing list

[Shane Curcuru]

As a mentor, I have two comments:

- When requesting a new mailing list, it is critical to clearly define 
the focus and expected community that would use a list.  In particular, 
showing specific threads on other lists that would be better moved to 
the new list is helpful to give others a detailed explanation of the 
kinds of things a new list proposer would expect to see on the new list.


Creating new email lists is simple technically, but should be approached 
with caution in terms of the effects of splitting community energy.


- I highly recommend that people view through the slides for the 
well-respected "How Open Source Projects Survive Poisonous People" set 
of slides:


https://sites.google.com/site/io/how-open-source-projects-survive-poisonous-people

The talk is worth watching, but for those short on time the slides are 
worth reading.  In particular, the aspects about how communities of many 
different kinds of people (the vast majority who are not poisonous, by 
the way!) can effectively work together on public mailing lists.  A key 
slide is pp 5, and pp7 as a followup:


"Attention and Focus
These are your scarcest resources
You must protect them"

- Shane

Re: The Old OOo Site

[Shane Curcuru]

The best place to get an overview on the technical work of 
decomissioning the Oracle-hosted *.openoffice.org sites and 
reconstructing (or merging, etc.) the pages on ASF hosting is:


https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/OpenOffice.org+Migration+Status

Similarly, I'm sure plenty of users have lots of questions about what is 
happening to the many @openoffice.org mailing lists:


https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Mailing+lists

Note that the OOOUSERS wiki allows anyone to sign up for an account to 
make edits; an iCLA is not required.


- Shane

On 2011-11-08 8:38 AM, Louis Suárez-Potts wrote:

Hi,
I periodically (read: every day) receive requests from OOo community
members and OOo users to fix, alter or otherwise change the OOo site
(www.openoffice.org). These requests include such things as expunging
private information as well as normal updates.

As we all know, the old OOo site is pretty much in the past, and we
are progressively moving to the new.

But: I'd like to have some more concrete information to provide, and
ideally, be able to address the requests, too.

Thanks
Louis<-the person formerly known as the OOo Community Manager

Re: Hunspell dictionaries are not just words lists (+ other matters)

[Shane Curcuru]

Without commenting on the merits of Hunspell or how to - or how not to - 
incorporate it or related dictionaries into AOOo builds, I will note 
that this thread has strayed off topic for the developers here on ooo-dev@.


If an Apache project needs legal advice to move forward with their 
project's work, it should form a *specific* question and take it to 
legal-discuss@.  Otherwise, we should focus on figuring out how to make 
a great AOOo build and organizing the many migration tasks from the 
*.oo.o handover here on ooo-dev@ and leave complex and non-specififc 
legal discussions elsewhere.


- Shane, having seen far too many discussions between developers about 
the law distract far too much attention from writing useful code

Re: Hunspell dictionaries are not just words lists (+ other matters)

[Shane Curcuru]

On 2011-11-07 8:27 AM, Dave Fisher wrote:

Hi Olivier,

Thanks for bringing your experienced perspective to the list!

On Nov 7, 2011, at 8:14 AM, Olivier R. wrote:


Le 07/11/2011 16:53, Rob Weir a écrit :


Why would Apache care about that?


Maybe just because you are an Apache member and you make a strong statement on 
an Apache list about FLOSS you are willing to bundle in your software.
I’d prefer an official statement about this point, if you don’t mind.


Rob is not an Apache Member, neither am I. We are Apache Committers and on the 
Apache OpenOffice.org (incubating) PPMC.


The list of Apache Members is here:
  http://www.apache.org/foundation/members.html

A very brief description of roles is here:
  http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html#roles


An official opinion is a reasonable request.


If the PPMC does have specific legal (or other) questions about Apache 
policy, then the PPMC should take those specific questions or proposals 
to legal-internal@ or the appropriate mailing list.  But you need to 
have a specific question for some purpose for the project.  The ASF's 
Foundation-level activities are designed to support it's projects in 
their direct work in building software for the public good. Hypothetical 
questions are unlikely to get official policy answers from VP, Legal or 
other officers, so it's important to be specific.


- Shane

Re: Moved over the old OOo archive

[Shane Curcuru]

Yay old builds are saved!

On 11/4/2011 8:16 AM, Marcus (OOo) wrote:
...snip...

Right. That's the reason why I've done it already in June as I also
won't loose this history. Furthermore it's a complete shapshot and
includes also all OOo 3.3.0 and 3.4.0 Beta builds.

I wasn't sure if infra would be happy to store ~180 GB on their disks
that don't belong to ASF. So I've haven't asked but asked the mirror
admin as he has the GB already on disk anyway (see here:
https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/OpenOffice.org+Migration+Status).


Please note that the http://archive.apache.org/ server is for historical 
archives - things we (the ASF) won't ever delete.  It does *not* 
replicate to mirrors!


Only the normal /dist directory is on the mirror system.  The archive is 
not mirrored.  Just didn't want people expecting something to mirror 
that isn't going to mirror.


More info on ASF Mirroring: http://www.apache.org/dev/mirrors.html

- Shane