Re: [osol-discuss] Getting rid of CD images for future SX:CE deliveries
Hi Guys, It would be nice to have single solid DVD ISO download as an option. Though I know the parts need to be retained for folks who want the DVD ISO but have bad connections. -J On 2/23/07, john g4lt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What's the functional difference to the user between getting a dvd image that's split into 5 parts and 5 iso images first of all? if the dvd image is going to be split anyways, why not make each image able to be burnt independently? With the present dvd image split up into 5 files, I see no gain in dropping the CD images and only headaches if one part fails the download. headaches that you don't have if you download each cd and burn it independently. with cd images, you can always have the install running while you refetch/burn the missing image. this would be different if there was a unified dvd image that didn't need to be concatenated. short of that, dropping the cd images is just not supportable, because now the user doesn't have the option to have one download per tangible piece of install media. ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] Getting rid of CD images for future SX:CE deliveries
Hi, Alan Coopersmith wrote: Would you have a problem with DVD-only images for SX:CE? Do you have systems you use for OpenSolaris that don't have DVD drives and that you can't netinstall from another system or Live Upgrade from a mounted image? Posting late to an old thread, but very much -1 from me. Anything that actually *increases* the barrier to entry for Solaris isn't a good thing right now. We desperately need to increase our volume, if that wasn't at all obvious from the 60K goal, and making that as easy as possible should be the priority. I have a vague feeling that a stack of 100 CDs worked out cheaper for me in NZ, than the equivalent in DVDs - those numbers were based on having to burn 5 CDs, so they may now be different with 6. Glynn ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] Getting rid of CD images for future SX:CE deliveries
Joerg Schilling wrote: Alan Coopersmith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Joerg Schilling wrote: Unfortunately, Sun did not sell DVD drives for the v20z. Are there many v20z owners who don't have another machine to netinstall from? I'm much more concerned about community members with a single Ultra 10, or older PC without a DVD burner than any rack-mounted server. I did replace the CD drive in the U-10 with a DVD burner long ago I have no DVD drives in the subnet where the pile of v20z is located. Note that the netinstall media need not be on the same subnet as the system to be installed. A boot-only server can be configured using the -b option to setup_install_server, and the addclient script can point to an off-link NFS path when adding clients to that boot server. -Seb ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] Getting rid of CD images for future SX:CE deliveries
Joerg Schilling wrote: Alan Coopersmith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Unfortunately, Sun did not sell DVD drives for the v20z. Are there many v20z owners who don't have another machine to netinstall from? I'm much more concerned about community members with a single Ultra 10, or older PC without a DVD burner than any rack-mounted server. I have no DVD drives in the subnet where the pile of v20z is located. But you have a pile of them, so you could mount the ISO image file on one of them (I'm sure you of all people know how to do that) and use that to set up a netinstall server for the rest. -- -Alan Coopersmith- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sun Microsystems, Inc. - X Window System Engineering ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] Getting rid of CD images for future SX:CE deliveries
Sebastien Roy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Joerg Schilling wrote: Alan Coopersmith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Joerg Schilling wrote: Unfortunately, Sun did not sell DVD drives for the v20z. Are there many v20z owners who don't have another machine to netinstall from? I'm much more concerned about community members with a single Ultra 10, or older PC without a DVD burner than any rack-mounted server. I did replace the CD drive in the U-10 with a DVD burner long ago I have no DVD drives in the subnet where the pile of v20z is located. Note that the netinstall media need not be on the same subnet as the system to be installed. A boot-only server can be configured using the -b option to setup_install_server, and the addclient script can point to an off-link NFS path when adding clients to that boot server. In my case, there is a firewall between... I would need to be able to use NFSv4 and to modify the firewall. Jörg -- EMail:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin [EMAIL PROTECTED](uni) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] Getting rid of CD images for future SX:CE deliveries
On 2/24/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Are the engineering benefits got out of abandoning CD-ROMS greater than the loss of a few (?) developers, students and users ? This is something we need to discuss; and what alternatives there might be. Driving upward the installer footprint, requiring live upgrade and other current plans run, I think, contrary to the goal of increasing the developer base. Absolutely. And starting to cause trouble for existing committed users. I would estimate that many developers we might wish to attract have less well resourced systems than I have, and I'm starting to get worried. If anything, we need to lessen the footprint and simplify deployment instead of making it ever more bloated. Question we can ask ourselves as community are: - Can OpenSolaris distributions fill the low-end void? - Would a single CD installer image which can point to an (Internet) based server fill the need of the DVD have-nots? It's not just a case of DVD vs CD media. I use the DVD download, because there are none of the architecture dependent issues that go with CD1, and it's not as though I can save on downloads by only grabbing a few of the CDs - the split between them is such that I need all of them. There was a time during one of the beta programs I was involved with when we had netinstall images available. For me, the only thing I do with a DVD image is build a netinstall image. One significant improvement would be a way of pruning that image to minimise the amount I need to download. And I would want to pull stuff across to my local install server. Another issue is that - particularly for SXCE - the differences between releases are rather less than the whole image. It would be nice if we could just grab the changes rather than having to pull the whole lot. (For example, staroffice doesn't change every build.) - Is live upgrade really something we should force? Definitely not. I don't use it; it add significantly to the install and management cost. If the problem we're trying to address is the possibility that upgrades cause harm, then we need to address that so that in-place upgrades are safe and successful. -- -Peter Tribble http://www.petertribble.co.uk/ - http://ptribble.blogspot.com/ ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] Getting rid of CD images for future SX:CE deliveries
Alan Coopersmith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Joerg Schilling wrote: Alan Coopersmith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Unfortunately, Sun did not sell DVD drives for the v20z. Are there many v20z owners who don't have another machine to netinstall from? I'm much more concerned about community members with a single Ultra 10, or older PC without a DVD burner than any rack-mounted server. I have no DVD drives in the subnet where the pile of v20z is located. But you have a pile of them, so you could mount the ISO image file on one of them (I'm sure you of all people know how to do that) and use that to set up a netinstall server for the rest. This is possible in case that there still is a boot CD that is able to start the install. Jörg -- EMail:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin [EMAIL PROTECTED](uni) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] Getting rid of CD images for future SX:CE deliveries
John Plocher wrote: It sounds like the answer is probably along the lines of don't do this right now; come back in 6 to 12 months and ask again... Sounds reasonable to me. The most consistent feedback (ok, vats of vitriol) that I get about the OpenSolaris download process is two-fold: 1) why is there no link to the solitary sparc or x86 dvd iso image? People *really* hate having to start 5 or 6 separate downloads when they have the connection to sustain a single iso download. 2) why don't Sun provide a torrent? I believe I know some of the answers/reasons for (2), but it would be *really good* if they could be spelt out on the dlc.sun.com site as well as sun.com/downloads. cheers, James C. McPherson -- Solaris kernel software engineer Sun Microsystems ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] Getting rid of CD images for future SX:CE deliveries
I believe I know some of the answers/reasons for (2), but it would be *really good* if they could be spelt out on the dlc.sun.com site as well as sun.com/downloads. If we have a better understanding of the reasons, it might be possible to come up with a, possibly stripped down, torrentable release of Solaris with a register for the rest direct download, preferrably as easy as pkg-get. Casper ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] Getting rid of CD images for future SX:CE deliveries
James C. McPherson wrote: John Plocher wrote: It sounds like the answer is probably along the lines of don't do this right now; come back in 6 to 12 months and ask again... Sounds reasonable to me. The most consistent feedback (ok, vats of vitriol) that I get about the OpenSolaris download process is two-fold: 1) why is there no link to the solitary sparc or x86 dvd iso image? People *really* hate having to start 5 or 6 separate downloads when they have the connection to sustain a single iso download. As a quick fix suggestion the SUN Download Manager can be enhanced to start 1 download streams in parallel for the file segments, unzip and subsequently join them together (and also verify the checksums). This should ease the hate factor. Regards, Moinak. 2) why don't Sun provide a torrent? I believe I know some of the answers/reasons for (2), but it would be *really good* if they could be spelt out on the dlc.sun.com site as well as sun.com/downloads. cheers, James C. McPherson -- Solaris kernel software engineer Sun Microsystems ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] Getting rid of CD images for future SX:CE deliveries
Moinak Ghosh wrote: James C. McPherson wrote: John Plocher wrote: It sounds like the answer is probably along the lines of don't do this right now; come back in 6 to 12 months and ask again... Sounds reasonable to me. The most consistent feedback (ok, vats of vitriol) that I get about the OpenSolaris download process is two-fold: 1) why is there no link to the solitary sparc or x86 dvd iso image? People *really* hate having to start 5 or 6 separate downloads when they have the connection to sustain a single iso download. As a quick fix suggestion the SUN Download Manager can be enhanced to start 1 download streams in parallel for the file segments, unzip and subsequently join them together (and also verify the checksums). This should ease the hate factor. A good suggestion, except that the people who complain to me about it really do not want to be using a java app in order to do a download. wget is where it's at for them. The incrediblylongandwierdlygeneratedrandomdownloadfilenames are also a significant annoyance factor. James C. McPherson -- Solaris kernel software engineer Sun Microsystems ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] Getting rid of CD images for future SX:CE deliveries
James C. McPherson wrote: Moinak Ghosh wrote: James C. McPherson wrote: [...] 1) why is there no link to the solitary sparc or x86 dvd iso image? People *really* hate having to start 5 or 6 separate downloads when they have the connection to sustain a single iso download. As a quick fix suggestion the SUN Download Manager can be enhanced to start 1 download streams in parallel for the file segments, unzip and subsequently join them together (and also verify the checksums). This should ease the hate factor. A good suggestion, except that the people who complain to me about it really do not want to be using a java app in order to do a download. wget is where it's at for them. The incrediblylongandwierdlygeneratedrandomdownloadfilenames are also a significant annoyance factor. In that case another alternative is to have the download center generate a shell script on the fly that will have all the wget, md5sum and sundry with URLs valid for the particular login session and proxy settings being detected from the browser's settings. Regards, Moinak. James C. McPherson -- Solaris kernel software engineer Sun Microsystems ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] Getting rid of CD images for future SX:CE deliveries
Would you have a problem with DVD-only images for SX:CE? Do you have systems you use for OpenSolaris that don't have DVD drives and that you can't netinstall from another system or Live Upgrade from a mounted image? No problem for me. But YES for a bunch of students who are trying to get their feet wet with OpenSolaris. There is already some bad-mouthing about how the Developer Edition needs a truckload of RAM to just install. We don't want people to compare Solaris hardware requirements with that of the Vista beast :-( Most colleges I know have machines that happily run Windows and Linux and have *only* CDROM drives. Netinstall might be feasible in some of these cases, but not all. Are the engineering benefits got out of abandoning CD-ROMS greater than the loss of a few (?) developers, students and users ? Ananth ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] Getting rid of CD images for future SX:CE deliveries
Are the engineering benefits got out of abandoning CD-ROMS greater than the loss of a few (?) developers, students and users ? This is something we need to discuss; and what alternatives there might be. Driving upward the installer footprint, requiring live upgrade and other current plans run, I think, contrary to the goal of increasing the developer base. Question we can ask ourselves as community are: - Can OpenSolaris distributions fill the low-end void? - Would a single CD installer image which can point to an (Internet) based server fill the need of the DVD have-nots? - Is live upgrade really something we should force? - If the latter, is live fresh install ability then a requirement? What is required of Sun in this space? What can the community do? Casper text based installer guy ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] Getting rid of CD images for future SX:CE deliveries
On 2/24/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Are the engineering benefits got out of abandoning CD-ROMS greater than the loss of a few (?) developers, students and users ? This is something we need to discuss; and what alternatives there might be. Driving upward the installer footprint, requiring live upgrade and other current plans run, I think, contrary to the goal of increasing the developer base. Question we can ask ourselves as community are: - Can OpenSolaris distributions fill the low-end void? - Would a single CD installer image which can point to an (Internet) based server fill the need of the DVD have-nots? To this I can hold up the example of Ubuntu. The installer is minimalistic, fits in a cd and get packages from repos. A similar strategy currently would be having a minimal installer (OS/gnome) on a 1 CD install and other packages from a blastwave like repository. The repository itself can be put up as a local network server and all the PCs can leech from it. This scenario works if you can get hold of 1 pc with a DVD rom.. (or allow for d/l of repository in many CDs). I'm planning on using this technique in college. Regards Anil SUN Campus Ambassador, JSSATE ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] Getting rid of CD images for future SX:CE deliveries
On 2/24/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Are the engineering benefits got out of abandoning CD-ROMS greater than the loss of a few (?) developers, students and users ? This is something we need to discuss; and what alternatives there might be. Driving upward the installer footprint, requiring live upgrade and other current plans run, I think, contrary to the goal of increasing the developer base. Question we can ask ourselves as community are: - Can OpenSolaris distributions fill the low-end void? from the opensolaris web page: To build OpenSolaris from the source, you first need to install a suitable OpenSolaris distribution, which at this time is limited to the Solaris Express Community Release (above).wouldn't removing the cd image mean the low end developers would be unable to contribute code? ( they would be unable to test it) - Would a single CD installer image which can point to an (Internet) based server fill the need of the DVD have-nots? you mean something like what debian does? yes, please! - Is live upgrade really something we should force? - If the latter, is live fresh install ability then a requirement? What is required of Sun in this space? What can the community do? i think having the posibility to build opensolaris using other opensolaris distributions and documentation to do that proplerly would be a good start nacho ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] Getting rid of CD images for future SX:CE deliveries
Would you have a problem with DVD-only images for SX:CE? Do you have systems you use for OpenSolaris that don't have DVD drives and that you can't netinstall from another system or Live Upgrade from a mounted image? Like others have mentioned, what I think should be done is to have one small download CD needed for the initial install and once the network is setup the rest of the packages needed are downloaded automatically by the install. Obviously this won't work for everyone but I think it would for most people. Bill rushmores.net ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] Getting rid of CD images for future SX:CE deliveries
James C. McPherson wrote: 2) why don't Sun provide a torrent? Some of the third-party software in Solaris requires certain agreements be made with those who redistribute. BitTorrent could be seen as allowing redistribution by people who haven't agreed to those license terms. If we someday made a separate OpenSolaris distro consisting of just those parts that are open source or allow redistribution under a license like the OpenSolaris binary license, that could be torrentable, or if we finally removed all the affected software from Solaris. (I don't actually know how much there is - I've only seen the licenses for the third-party software shipped in X, and can't comment publicly on the details of those licenses. We are in the process of EOF'ing one of the two bits of third-party software in X (Display Postscript), but have no plans to drop the other one (Bitstream's TrueType engine, used in both Xsun Xorg).) -- -Alan Coopersmith- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sun Microsystems, Inc. - X Window System Engineering ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] Getting rid of CD images for future SX:CE deliveries
Ananth Shrinivas wrote: Would you have a problem with DVD-only images for SX:CE? Do you have systems you use for OpenSolaris that don't have DVD drives and that you can't netinstall from another system or Live Upgrade from a mounted image? No problem for me. But YES for a bunch of students who are trying to get their feet wet with OpenSolaris. There is already some bad-mouthing about how the Developer Edition needs a truckload of RAM to just install. We don't want people to compare Solaris hardware requirements with that of the Vista beast :-( More so when Developer Edition can actually run fine with half the RAM that is required to install it. Regards, Moinak. ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] Getting rid of CD images for future SX:CE deliveries
On Sat, 24 Feb 2007, Moinak Ghosh wrote: Ananth Shrinivas wrote: Would you have a problem with DVD-only images for SX:CE? Do you have systems you use for OpenSolaris that don't have DVD drives and that you can't netinstall from another system or Live Upgrade from a mounted image? No problem for me. But YES for a bunch of students who are trying to get their feet wet with OpenSolaris. There is already some bad-mouthing about how the Developer Edition needs a truckload of RAM to just install. We don't want people to compare Solaris hardware requirements with that of the Vista beast :-( More so when Developer Edition can actually run fine with half the RAM that is required to install it. Moinak -- I think that's 128 MB, correct? Don't you need way more than 128 to effectively run a SX Developer Edition Desktop? (I'm presuming we're talking about simultaneously running at least X/GNOME, multiple gnome-terminals, and Firefox.) Eric ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] Getting rid of CD images for future SX:CE deliveries
On 2/24/07, Eric Boutilier [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sat, 24 Feb 2007, Moinak Ghosh wrote: Ananth Shrinivas wrote: Would you have a problem with DVD-only images for SX:CE? Do you have systems you use for OpenSolaris that don't have DVD drives and that you can't netinstall from another system or Live Upgrade from a mounted image? No problem for me. But YES for a bunch of students who are trying to get their feet wet with OpenSolaris. There is already some bad-mouthing about how the Developer Edition needs a truckload of RAM to just install. We don't want people to compare Solaris hardware requirements with that of the Vista beast :-( More so when Developer Edition can actually run fine with half the RAM that is required to install it. Moinak -- I think that's 128 MB, correct? Don't you need way more than 128 to effectively run a SX Developer Edition Desktop? (I'm presuming we're talking about simultaneously running at least X/GNOME, multiple gnome-terminals, and Firefox.) i used to run solaris 10 and old nevadas with 256 mb of ram, it was pretty usable till you opened mozilla and used it for a while (a few hours), then it would start complaining about lack of memory to spawn new processes and such, that with an old jds, i assume things are worse now with the more hungry gnome and firefox. i also had 256 mb of swap i think 512mb is a more accurate limit, but 384mb should be enough nacho ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] Getting rid of CD images for future SX:CE deliveries
Regarding Casper's and Bill's posts about a single-CD + network network based install: This topic came up in install-discuss too, and over there Dave Miner just wrote: Date: Sat Feb 24 09:52:39 2007 From: Dave Miner [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [install-discuss] distributed locations for installations James C. McPherson wrote: Hi all, apologies if this has already been mentioned - I couldn't find it in the archives so any pointers would be appreciated. Fourth paragraph on page 21 of the Installation Strategy document I posted for this community's review a year ago. We've spent a bunch of time discussing this in planning meetings this week, and I'll post more about the roadmap in a week or so. This particular feature is definitely something we will do. ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] Getting rid of CD images for future SX:CE deliveries
Eric Boutilier wrote: On Sat, 24 Feb 2007, Moinak Ghosh wrote: Ananth Shrinivas wrote: [...] No problem for me. But YES for a bunch of students who are trying to get their feet wet with OpenSolaris. There is already some bad-mouthing about how the Developer Edition needs a truckload of RAM to just install. We don't want people to compare Solaris hardware requirements with that of the Vista beast :-( More so when Developer Edition can actually run fine with half the RAM that is required to install it. Moinak -- I think that's 128 MB, correct? Don't you need way more than 128 to effectively run a SX Developer Edition Desktop? (I'm presuming we're talking about simultaneously running at least X/GNOME, multiple gnome-terminals, and Firefox.) Ah yes, of course, but for a Developer use you'd want to use Netbeans and or maybe build OpenSolaris etc., and that's when things get a little thrashy with 128 MB. Regards, Moinak. Eric ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] Getting rid of CD images for future SX:CE deliveries
Eric Boutilier wrote: On Sat, 24 Feb 2007, Moinak Ghosh wrote: More so when Developer Edition can actually run fine with half the RAM that is required to install it. Moinak -- I think that's 128 MB, correct? Don't you need way more than 128 to effectively run a SX Developer Edition Desktop? (I'm presuming we're talking about simultaneously running at least X/GNOME, multiple gnome-terminals, and Firefox.) The Developer Edition requires 768Mb RAM to run the Developer Edition version of the installer, so half that would be 384Mb RAM. -- -Alan Coopersmith- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sun Microsystems, Inc. - X Window System Engineering ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] Getting rid of CD images for future SX:CE deliveries
Moinak Ghosh wrote: In that case another alternative is to have the download center generate a shell script on the fly that will have all the wget, md5sum and sundry with URLs valid for the particular login session and proxy settings being detected from the browser's settings. .. And then people show up that want the same with curl... how about making the tiny fix (another http header entry) that sends the real file name (without all the gibberish) to the client? that http header would look like: Content-Disposition: inline; filename=real.name patrick georgi ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] Getting rid of CD images for future SX:CE deliveries
Alan Coopersmith wrote: James C. McPherson wrote: 2) why don't Sun provide a torrent? Some of the third-party software in Solaris requires certain agreements be made with those who redistribute. BitTorrent could be seen as allowing redistribution by people who haven't agreed to those license terms. If we someday made a separate OpenSolaris distro consisting of just those parts that are open source or allow redistribution under a license like the OpenSolaris binary license, that could be torrentable, or if we finally removed all the affected software from Solaris. what if you send it as aes encrypted file (or openpgp, or whatever) via torrent and provide the key in the download center. the torrent file is utterly useless without the key, and the key needs the license sign-off, but is tiny. this mechanism would still provide working load balancing beyond whatever sun could ever provide. patrick georgi ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] Getting rid of CD images for future SX:CE deliveries
Ignacio Marambio Catán wrote: On 2/24/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Question we can ask ourselves as community are: - Can OpenSolaris distributions fill the low-end void? from the opensolaris web page: To build OpenSolaris from the source, you first need to install a suitable OpenSolaris distribution, which at this time is limited to the Solaris Express Community Release (above).wouldn't removing the cd image mean the low end developers would be unable to contribute code? ( they would be unable to test it) As that realistic? To build from source, a developer either requires a fairly modern machine, or a lot of patience. Ian ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] Getting rid of CD images for future SX:CE deliveries
Alan Coopersmith wrote: Eric Boutilier wrote: On Sat, 24 Feb 2007, Moinak Ghosh wrote: More so when Developer Edition can actually run fine with half the RAM that is required to install it. Moinak -- I think that's 128 MB, correct? Don't you need way more than 128 to effectively run a SX Developer Edition Desktop? (I'm presuming we're talking about simultaneously running at least X/GNOME, multiple gnome-terminals, and Firefox.) The Developer Edition requires 768Mb RAM to run the Developer Edition version of the installer, so half that would be 384Mb RAM. Which would be useless for running the NetBeans IDE. Let's face it, a development machine should have a minimum of 1GB per core. Ian ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
[osol-discuss] Getting rid of CD images for future SX:CE deliveries
Due to some changes planned in the way install images are built for Solaris Nevada, we've been having an internal discussion this week about whether it would be okay to drop CD images for the future Nevada builds (which the community sees as Solaris Express: Community Edition) and only have DVD images. We've got some statistics which show downloaders seem to prefer DVD images over CD at about a 2:1 ratio - but we don't know if those downloading CD images could use DVD images instead. The internal discussion thus has been based mostly on our assumptions about who the community members are and what hardware they have, but no one has yet asked the community. Would you have a problem with DVD-only images for SX:CE? Do you have systems you use for OpenSolaris that don't have DVD drives and that you can't netinstall from another system or Live Upgrade from a mounted image? -- -Alan Coopersmith- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sun Microsystems, Inc. - X Window System Engineering February 2007 Selection: LSARC Chair of the Month Club ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] Getting rid of CD images for future SX:CE deliveries
Alan Coopersmith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Due to some changes planned in the way install images are built for Solaris Nevada, we've been having an internal discussion this week about whether it would be okay to drop CD images for the future Nevada builds (which the community sees as Solaris Express: Community Edition) and only have DVD images. ... Would you have a problem with DVD-only images for SX:CE? Do you have systems you use for OpenSolaris that don't have DVD drives and that you can't netinstall from another system or Live Upgrade from a mounted image? Unfortunately, Sun did not sell DVD drives for the v20z. If Sun did sell DVD drives only since y2000, I did not have a problem with a DVD only release. Jörg -- EMail:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin [EMAIL PROTECTED](uni) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] Getting rid of CD images for future SX:CE deliveries
Joerg Schilling wrote: Unfortunately, Sun did not sell DVD drives for the v20z. Are there many v20z owners who don't have another machine to netinstall from? I'm much more concerned about community members with a single Ultra 10, or older PC without a DVD burner than any rack-mounted server. -- -Alan Coopersmith- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sun Microsystems, Inc. - X Window System Engineering February 2007 Selection: LSARC Chair of the Month Club ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] Getting rid of CD images for future SX:CE deliveries
Alan Coopersmith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Joerg Schilling wrote: Unfortunately, Sun did not sell DVD drives for the v20z. Are there many v20z owners who don't have another machine to netinstall from? I'm much more concerned about community members with a single Ultra 10, or older PC without a DVD burner than any rack-mounted server. I did replace the CD drive in the U-10 with a DVD burner long ago I have no DVD drives in the subnet where the pile of v20z is located. Jörg -- EMail:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin [EMAIL PROTECTED](uni) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] Getting rid of CD images for future SX:CE deliveries
On Fri, 23 Feb 2007, Alan Coopersmith wrote: Would you have a problem with DVD-only images for SX:CE? Do you have systems you use for OpenSolaris that don't have DVD drives and that you can't netinstall from another system or Live Upgrade from a mounted image? Speaking personally, no I have no issues with this. -- Rich Teer, SCSA, SCNA, SCSECA, OpenSolaris CAB member President, Rite Online Inc. Voice: +1 (250) 979-1638 URL: http://www.rite-group.com/rich ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] Getting rid of CD images for future SX:CE deliveries
On 2/23/07, Rich Teer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, 23 Feb 2007, Alan Coopersmith wrote: Would you have a problem with DVD-only images for SX:CE? Do you have systems you use for OpenSolaris that don't have DVD drives and that you can't netinstall from another system or Live Upgrade from a mounted image? Speaking personally, no I have no issues with this. -- That would probably be a show stopper in many third world countries, but then again, as long as the developer edition has cd images, there shouldn't be a problem. Solaris requires 512 mb of ram to install, that is a limiting factor anyway nacho ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] Getting rid of CD images for future SX:CE deliveries
On 2/23/07, Alan Coopersmith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ignacio Marambio Catán wrote: On 2/23/07, Rich Teer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, 23 Feb 2007, Alan Coopersmith wrote: Would you have a problem with DVD-only images for SX:CE? Do you have systems you use for OpenSolaris that don't have DVD drives and that you can't netinstall from another system or Live Upgrade from a mounted image? Speaking personally, no I have no issues with this. -- That would probably be a show stopper in many third world countries, but then again, as long as the developer edition has cd images, there shouldn't be a problem. Getting rid of them for Nevada will affect the Developer Edition as well. I see, i'm guessing making cd images of one SX:CE every once in a while is out of the question too right? nacho ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] Getting rid of CD images for future SX:CE deliveries
Hi Alan, We've removed all of our v20z's so its not an issue for us...but if we still had them it would be painful in extreme circumstances. The ILOM and ELOM both support remote ISO mounting, and the basic BMC on the v20z doesn't. So in an emergency you're stuck with CDs. Best Regards, Jason On 2/23/07, Alan Coopersmith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ignacio Marambio Catán wrote: On 2/23/07, Rich Teer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, 23 Feb 2007, Alan Coopersmith wrote: Would you have a problem with DVD-only images for SX:CE? Do you have systems you use for OpenSolaris that don't have DVD drives and that you can't netinstall from another system or Live Upgrade from a mounted image? Speaking personally, no I have no issues with this. -- That would probably be a show stopper in many third world countries, but then again, as long as the developer edition has cd images, there shouldn't be a problem. Getting rid of them for Nevada will affect the Developer Edition as well. -- -Alan Coopersmith- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sun Microsystems, Inc. - X Window System Engineering February 2007 Selection: LSARC Chair of the Month Club ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] Getting rid of CD images for future SX:CE deliveries
Getting rid of CDs is not a good idea at least for a while. I deal with users from around the world everyday and there are many who do not have either DVD reading or writing capabilities. (Some don't have CD burning hardware either, but that is getting to be rare.) Surely many of these will not be moving to Opensolaris or even Solaris 10 on their hardware and so maybe the OpenSolaris community should not care, but by not offering CDs you are guaranteed to keep them from trying OpenSolaris or contributing to the effort in any way. Some of these people have only one Solaris system, so using another system to install might not work. Live Upgrade could work though there may be limits to that as well. It is also my experience that there are organizations (oddly enough some very large ones) and individuals in the US who would fit the third world category. Steve Christensen Jason J. W. Williams wrote: Hi Alan, We've removed all of our v20z's so its not an issue for us...but if we still had them it would be painful in extreme circumstances. The ILOM and ELOM both support remote ISO mounting, and the basic BMC on the v20z doesn't. So in an emergency you're stuck with CDs. Best Regards, Jason On 2/23/07, Alan Coopersmith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ignacio Marambio Catán wrote: On 2/23/07, Rich Teer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, 23 Feb 2007, Alan Coopersmith wrote: Would you have a problem with DVD-only images for SX:CE? Do you have systems you use for OpenSolaris that don't have DVD drives and that you can't netinstall from another system or Live Upgrade from a mounted image? Speaking personally, no I have no issues with this. -- That would probably be a show stopper in many third world countries, but then again, as long as the developer edition has cd images, there shouldn't be a problem. Getting rid of them for Nevada will affect the Developer Edition as well. -- -Alan Coopersmith- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sun Microsystems, Inc. - X Window System Engineering February 2007 Selection: LSARC Chair of the Month Club ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] Getting rid of CD images for future SX:CE deliveries
What's the functional difference to the user between getting a dvd image that's split into 5 parts and 5 iso images first of all? if the dvd image is going to be split anyways, why not make each image able to be burnt independently? With the present dvd image split up into 5 files, I see no gain in dropping the CD images and only headaches if one part fails the download. headaches that you don't have if you download each cd and burn it independently. with cd images, you can always have the install running while you refetch/burn the missing image. this would be different if there was a unified dvd image that didn't need to be concatenated. short of that, dropping the cd images is just not supportable, because now the user doesn't have the option to have one download per tangible piece of install media. ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] Getting rid of CD images for future SX:CE deliveries
On 2/23/07, Alan Coopersmith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Due to some changes planned in the way install images are built for Solaris Nevada, we've been having an internal discussion this week about whether it would be okay to drop CD images for the future Nevada builds (which the community sees as Solaris Express: Community Edition) and only have DVD images. We've got some statistics which show downloaders seem to prefer DVD images over CD at about a 2:1 ratio - but we don't know if those downloading CD images could use DVD images instead. The internal discussion thus has been based mostly on our assumptions about who the community members are and what hardware they have, but no one has yet asked the community. Would you have a problem with DVD-only images for SX:CE? Do you have systems you use for OpenSolaris that don't have DVD drives and that you can't netinstall from another system or Live Upgrade from a mounted image? I think for x86 its okay to discontinue cdroms ( a box with 256MB ram most likely has a dvd drive or can spend $20 and get a dvd drive, but for sparc it should be continued many sparc machines that run solaris 10 don't have dvd drives and scsi dvd drives are not cheap and are hard to find used. James Dickens uadmin.blogspot.com -- -Alan Coopersmith- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sun Microsystems, Inc. - X Window System Engineering February 2007 Selection: LSARC Chair of the Month Club ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] Getting rid of CD images for future SX:CE deliveries
James Dickens wrote: On 2/23/07, *Alan Coopersmith* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Due to some changes planned in the way install images are built for Solaris Nevada, we've been having an internal discussion this week about whether it would be okay to drop CD images for the future Nevada builds (which the community sees as Solaris Express: Community Edition) and only have DVD images. We've got some statistics which show downloaders seem to prefer DVD images over CD at about a 2:1 ratio - but we don't know if those downloading CD images could use DVD images instead. The internal discussion thus has been based mostly on our assumptions about who the community members are and what hardware they have, but no one has yet asked the community. Would you have a problem with DVD-only images for SX:CE? Do you have systems you use for OpenSolaris that don't have DVD drives and that you can't netinstall from another system or Live Upgrade from a mounted image? I think for x86 its okay to discontinue cdroms ( a box with 256MB ram most likely has a dvd drive or can spend $20 and get a dvd drive, but for sparc it should be continued many sparc machines that run solaris 10 don't have dvd drives and scsi dvd drives are not cheap and are hard to find used. James Dickens uadmin.blogspot.com http://uadmin.blogspot.com You'd be amazed at what OpenSolaris runs on. I've got a B57 mail server running happily on an ancient Gateway 433 Mhz celeron. Problem is the BIOS is from 1998 and doesn't know what to do with DVD's. I have s strong suspicion that people interested in trying OpenSolaris will be happy to sacrifice an older box to play with it, but not one of their newer ones. I'm fortunate to be able to perform netinstalls, but not everyone is. Keep your options open. ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] Getting rid of CD images for future SX:CE deliveries
We've got some statistics which show downloaders seem to prefer let's see the numbers. DVD images over CD at about a 2:1 ratio - but we don't know if those downloading CD images could use DVD images instead. The data you have in hand clearly says that you have a pile of people that do actually download the CDROM images. This is the same as the large pile of people out there running Solaris 8. I don't think we can simply shut the door on them without fair warning. Well, some warning at least. The internal discussion thus has been based mostly on our assumptions about who the community members are and what hardware they have, but no one has yet asked the community. I have a whack of gear here. Old stuff. Newer stuff. Weird stuff. Would you have a problem with DVD-only images for SX:CE? yes and no ... let me explain People hate change and they hate being pushed forwards when they bloody well know that they need to just stop using the floppy drive. Or the old QIC tape drive. Or the old 3Com 10 Mbit network hub or heck even Token Ring or some other damn piece of history. I like my old Sparc gear but I don't know why. Because it still works? We do need to just issue a DVD image and move forwards. Do you have systems you use for OpenSolaris that don't have DVD drives yes in fact, no DVD or CDROM at all sometimes. Sometimes CDROM only. and that you can't netinstall from another system or Live Upgrade from a mounted image? thats a whole other kettle of fish. sometimes the easy thing to do is to just boot from a CDROM and then feed them one at a time. Sometimes I will feed in the first one only and then use NFS to fetch the rest. I often use a CD-RW media because I can just blank it and then repeat the process with the next release. I have a drawer here .. full of older versions on CDROM. Its shameful really because I am just making landfill. This may be one of those things whose day has come and we just have to stop the CDROM images and thus force people ( me also ) to use a DVD or netboot situation. I don't use a floppy anymore. The CDROM has done its job and its only a matter of time before we stop this DVD situation also and switch to pure internet based boot services. Oh, one last thing that bugs me. This really irks me but it is also my own damn fault probably. I dunno. Here it is. I have a few boxes that I term as production grade. That means they are Solaris 10 based on either Update 2 or Update 3. They are well patched and even the Studio 11 patches and stuff not in the Recommended patch cluster are applied. I buy support contracts for these machines and they work. Perfectly. If I want to burn a DVD ISO image on this machine ( the one I am using right now to type this email ) then I use cdrecord. I don't use cdrw and that may be my own fault but cdrecord is just way better in my opinion. However the cdrecord that ships with Solaris 10 does not burn DVDs. Here is the situation : # uname -a SunOS titan 5.10 Generic_125101-01 i86pc i386 i86pc # cat /etc/release Solaris 10 6/06 s10x_u2wos_09a X86 Copyright 2006 Sun Microsystems, Inc. All Rights Reserved. Use is subject to license terms. Assembled 09 June 2006 # pkginfo -l SUNWmkcd PKGINST: SUNWmkcd NAME: CD creation utilities CATEGORY: system ARCH: i386 VERSION: 11.10.0,REV=2005.01.08.01.09 BASEDIR: / VENDOR: Sun Microsystems, Inc. DESC: CD creation utilities 2.01 PSTAMP: sfw10-x20050108014014 INSTDATE: Sep 14 2006 15:02 HOTLINE: Please contact your local service provider STATUS: completely installed FILES:6 installed pathnames 2 shared pathnames 2 directories 4 executables 2176 blocks used (approx) # /bin/cdrecord -v -scanbus Cdrecord-Clone 2.01 (i386-pc-solaris2.10) Copyright (C) 1995-2004 Jörg Schilling TOC Type: 1 = CD-ROM Warning: Using USCSI interface. Using libscg version 'schily-0.8'. SCSI buffer size: 57344 scsibus0: 0,0,0 0) 'SONY' 'DVD RW DRU-820A ' '1.0b' Removable CD-ROM 0,1,0 1) 'PIONEER ' 'DVD-RW DVR-107D' '1.21' Removable CD-ROM 0,2,0 2) * 0,3,0 3) * 0,4,0 4) * 0,5,0 5) * 0,6,0 6) * 0,7,0 7) * scsibus1: 1,0,0 100) 'SEAGATE ' 'ST39173W' '6244' Disk 1,1,0 101) * 1,2,0 102) * 1,3,0 103) * 1,4,0 104) * 1,5,0 105) * 1,6,0 106) * 1,7,0 107) * scsibus3: 3,0,0 300) 'SEAGATE ' 'ST39102LW ' '8320' Disk 3,1,0 301) * 3,2,0 302) * 3,3,0 303) * 3,4,0 304) * 3,5,0 305) * 3,6,0 306) * 3,7,0 307) * scsibus4: 4,0,0 400) * 4,1,0 401) 'SEAGATE ' 'ST336704LSUN36G ' '032C' Disk
Re: [osol-discuss] Getting rid of CD images for future SX:CE deliveries
Dennis Clarke wrote: The data you have in hand clearly says that you have a pile of people that do actually download the CDROM images. This is the same as the large pile of people out there running Solaris 8. I don't think we can simply shut the door on them without fair warning. Well, some warning at least. No one said anything about changing the way any pre-Nevada release is delivered, so those people happily running Solaris 8 will still have their CD's - and the people proposing this said it's been announced on the Solaris Express site for the past two years now (I don't remember how to log in there to check). -- -Alan Coopersmith- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sun Microsystems, Inc. - X Window System Engineering February 2007 Selection: LSARC Chair of the Month Club ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] Getting rid of CD images for future SX:CE deliveries
Thanks for your feedback - the people proposing this are taking it into consideration, and the current proposal was not approved. -- -Alan Coopersmith- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sun Microsystems, Inc. - X Window System Engineering February 2007 Selection: LSARC Chair of the Month Club ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] Getting rid of CD images for future SX:CE deliveries
Ignacio Marambio Catán wrote: On 2/23/07, Rich Teer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, 23 Feb 2007, Alan Coopersmith wrote: Would you have a problem with DVD-only images for SX:CE? Do you have systems you use for OpenSolaris that don't have DVD drives and that you can't netinstall from another system or Live Upgrade from a mounted image? Speaking personally, no I have no issues with this. -- That would probably be a show stopper in many third world countries, but then again, as long as the developer edition has cd images, there shouldn't be a problem. Solaris requires 512 mb of ram to install, that is a limiting factor anyway Dropping CD inages will be a big problem in India. Many individuals and colleges having large labs with PCs purchased 2-3 years back have only CDROM drives. When these colleges get onto the SUN University program and want to install OpenSolaris on these machines they obviously need CD images. Dropping CD images will block out 50% of these folks. The situation is changing and DVD drives are getting cheaper and popular but we still need the CD images around for a while. Regards, Moinak. nacho ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] Getting rid of CD images for future SX:CE deliveries
Dennis Clarke wrote: The data you have in hand clearly says that you have a pile of people that do actually download the CDROM images. This is the same as the large pile of people out there running Solaris 8. I don't think we can simply shut the door on them without fair warning. Well, some warning at least. No one said anything about changing the way any pre-Nevada release is delivered, so those people happily running Solaris 8 will still have their CD's - and the people proposing this said it's been announced on the Solaris Express site for the past two years now (I don't remember how to log in there to check). I have a Solaris Express subscription and I guess I could check. Either way .. it doesn't matter. The floppy is dead. The QIC tape is dead and Solaris 8 has passed its last ship date. Thank God. The CDROM as a media needs to just die also. Same with the DVD. Its just landfill. Junk that will never decompose. Dennis ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] Getting rid of CD images for future SX:CE deliveries
It sounds like the answer is probably along the lines of don't do this right now; come back in 6 to 12 months and ask again... -John ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
