subject:"Re\: Adults on bicycles"

I thought being your own grandpaw was quite common in some parts of the US?  
8-) Being your own niece is probably much more difficult for someone of the 
masculine persuasion.

 From: graywolf [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Date: 2006/11/01 Wed PM 09:26:40 GMT
 To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net
 Subject: Re: Adults on bicycles

 That makes as much sense as anything else in this thread...

 Bob W wrote:
  thanks to the magic of HG's time machine, Orson was simultaneously his
  grandfather and his niece.

  --
  Cheers,
   Bob

  -Original Message-
  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On 
  Behalf Of graywolf
  Sent: 01 November 2006 12:23
  To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List
  Subject: Re: Adults on bicycles

  Oh, well, I was having one of those senior moments and was 
  thinking of 
  Orson Wells who became famous with a radio broadcast based 
  upon one of 
  HG's stories. I wonder if they were related? Yes, I know I could
  look 
  that up...

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RE: Adults on bicycles

 From: Bob W [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Date: 2006/11/01 Wed PM 09:23:41 GMT
 To: 'Pentax-Discuss Mail List' pdml@pdml.net
 Subject: RE: Adults on bicycles

 That might work, Bob, if it were applied consistently in all other
 areas of activity, and if the wearing of cycle helmets could be shown
 conclusively to be effective. 

 Neither of these conditions apply. 

 For consistency all insurance and health care would have to be
 withdrawn from anybody who was negligent of their health in some way,
 for example by smoking, drinking, eating the wrong kind of food, not
 taking enough exercise, running with knives, etc. etc.

 And the final judgement is certainly not in yet on the effectiveness
 of cycle helmets, so one could not in any case argue that a cyclist
 without a helmet was neglecting his health in a way that could justify
 (if anything can) withholding or withdrawing medical treatment or
 insurance.

 Furthermore, it doesn't take into account who was at fault in an
 accident - something that could rarely be determined at the time of
 the accident. It is also wide open to mistakes. If someone's helmet
 were knocked off in an accident and not immediately visible to the
 paramedics, should they withhold treatment on the grounds that the
 rider was not wearing their helmet? 

 --
 Cheers,
  Bob

The other problem is the, in reality, very limited protection that helmets 
provide.  If you hit your head against anything unyielding at more than about 
20mph, you will die.  Helmets mitigate the effect but, apparently, only 
slightly.  You can't get quality volunteers these days.  When it comes down to 
it, luck seems to be the arbiter of how seriously you are injured in a 
collision.

  -Original Message-
  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On 
  Behalf Of Bob Sullivan
  Sent: 01 November 2006 21:03
  To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List
  Subject: Re: Adults on bicycles

  I believe the law should read, If you won't wear a helmet on your
  motorcycle, no public funds or insurance monies may be used to
 support
  your life or recovery after an accident.
  Bicycle riding is another matter, but still deserves the helmet.
  Regards,  Bob S.

  On 11/1/06, Mat Maessen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
   On 11/1/06, frank theriault [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Then there's always the possibility that a cyclist may be 
  completely
in the right, and that a car might be in the wrong and 
  hit a cyclist.
Since cars have a mass of some 20 times that of a bicycle 
  and rider,
physics tend to be on the side of the car in collisions.  
  I'll take
whatever protection I can, especially if it's unobtrusive and
inexpensive.

   There's a saying in the motorcycle community:

   'I had the right of way' is a terrible epithet for your 
  gravestone.

   I still have the scars on my arm from a bicycle accident I 
  had when I
   was 14. The helmet saved my life in that accident by striking the
   stone wall and shattering into a million pieces. I still wear the
   helmet that I bought to replace that one.

   -Mat

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Re: Adults on bicycles

2006-11-02 Thread Cotty

On 2/11/06, John Forbes, discombobulated, unleashed:

Of course, it's different in America.  Your suburbs are much larger.

Amazing what botox can do ;-)

-- 


Cheers,
  Cotty


___/\__
||   (O)   | People, Places, Pastiche
||=|http://www.cottysnaps.com
_



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Re: Adults on bicycles

From: John Francis [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: 2006/11/01 Wed PM 10:26:38 GMT
To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net
Subject: Re: Adults on bicycles

On Wed, Nov 01, 2006 at 09:12:22PM -, Bob W wrote:
Your wise neurosurgeon might care to reflect on this:
(http://www.cyclecraft.co.uk/digest/effectiveness.pdf)

... the average distance cycled per person in the UK each year is
only 62 km42 (and in the Netherlands only 850 km43), so the average
cyclist would expect a serious injury only once in more than 80 lifetimes.

That would only be true if the likelihood of accident was directly
proportional to distance travelled, which is a questionable assumption.

Compare this, for example, to the equally often-quoted figure that
50% of all automobile accidents occur within 1.5 miles of the home.
If this is true, and if the probability of an accident is directly
proportional to the length of the journey, then we are forced to the
conclusion that the average journey in an automobile is three miles.
This is plainly ridiculous, so one of the underlying assumptions
must be wrong.

I can find no online reference to journey distances on other than European and,
oddly, South African sites. Discounting the ones that are measuring commuting
journeys only, the only site that gives a number is this:
http://www-wds.worldbank.org/servlet/WDSContentServer/WDSP/IB/1997/01/01/09265_3970716145200/Rendered/INDEX/multi_page.txt
which says that 70% of Nederland journeys are under 7.5Km. About 5 miles.

Away from southern UK, the majority of people commute only about 5 miles or so.
Combined with a large number of vehicles doing very short journeys (delivery
vans, waste collectors, post vehicles, door to door salespersons, travelling
thieves, local authority workers, retired people) it is no suprise to me that
average journey distances are in single figures.

Short, regularly travelled routes seem to have a disproportionate number of
accidents. I don't think anyone has done any work (at least, I can't find it
online) to work out if that is merely due to a statistical function or if there
is a human effect at work.

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Re: Adults on bicycles

2006-11-02 Thread John Coyle

Don, I'll have to take you to task for suggesting that I did not maintain my 
bicycle!  The problem was a large uneven pothole, which, because it was 
dusk, I simply did not see.  I was meticulous in maintenance - almost 
paranoid, in fact (reflecting Frank's contributions)

John Coyle
Brisbane, Australia
- Original Message - 
From: Don Williams [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net
Sent: Thursday, November 02, 2006 5:42 PM
Subject: Re: Adults on bicycles

Hi John,

There must have been something seriously wrong with the bicycle for a
front wheel to collapse. A little maintenance might have helped -- as
well as care and attention when riding? A serious fall would do me no
good whatsoever at 74. I tweak the spokes and check my brakes regularly.
The route I take over the hill to the village is rocky and steep and so
these days I stay away from rough terrain when it gets below zero. Once
my front wheel went sideways on an icy rock and I ended up in a heap.
The damage was not serious and I was riding again in a week. But
bicycles, especially those like mine, a Scott mountain bike, need a lot
of care and attention because they get pretty rough treatment. Ten years
ago I used to change the tyres in the autumn to a pair with spikes; but
as the years went by I began to realise that I was not as young as I
seemed to imagine. If I were to wear a helmet in the autumn (I have one
for summer) my skull would freeze before I got half a kilometre.

I'm just about to set off for the village by the way, there's about 50
cm of snow on the hill. I'll go round and push the 1km to the road.

Don

John Coyle wrote:
 Having once, many years ago, gone over the handlebars when a front wheel
 collapsed, landing on my face and spending three days in hospital as a
 result, I would prefer to wear a helmet when riding, whether or not I was
 required to do so.
 Note that, in my case, I was on a quiet country road, no other vehicle was
 involved, and I was riding at a reasonably sedate pace, correctly 
 positioned
 on the road.  No amount of care or caution could have prevented that
 accident, as far as I can see, negating some of the arguments put forward 
 in
 this thread.
 It's really like wearing a seat-belt in a car: a helmet won't prevent 
 every
 fatality, but it will reduce the severity of injury in a statistically
 significant number of cases.

 John Coyle
 Brisbane, Australia
 - Original Message - 
 From: David Mann [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net
 Sent: Thursday, November 02, 2006 4:00 PM
 Subject: Re: Adults on bicycles

 On Nov 2, 2006, at 10:49 AM, Bob W wrote:

 The best protection for cyclists is to learn how to cycle properly
 in traffic.

 That helps, but you need to bear in mind that drivers have blind
 spots, are often inattentive (especially while in a hurry), and in
 some cases, as much as I hate to say it, they can be downright
 inconsiderate.  Just as cyclists sometimes are.

 I haven't been bowled by a car for quite a while despite some close
 calls, but the most recent time was when I was hit from the side by a
 guy pulling out of a driveway.  He was running late and his token
 glance for traffic missed the only thing on that stretch of road.
 Sometimes shit just happens, and by then it's too late to wonder
 whether you're going to hit the concrete hard enough to matter.

 In then end, a helmet won't always save someone's life: the reality
 is that in a crash there is a certain amount of impact force applied
 to the head.  The helmet can absorb a certain amount, and spreads the
 rest across that side of the skull.  With a big enough impact nothing
 will save you, and you can easily be killed by other injuries
 anyway.  IMO the helmet gives me worthwhile protection of the one
 thing that won't heal, without getting in my way while riding.

 As you mentioned, prevention by careful riding is the best cure but
 my experience is that this can only reduce the danger - not eliminate
 it.  Riding offroad is an entirely different kettle of fish as the
 terrain is much more interesting, and because I ride that stuff for
 fun, fitness and challenge, crashing is much more likely and in many
 places there are pointy rocks to land on.

 The dynamics of any crash are far too variable to be able to make
 predictions of the outcome, and personally I'd rather have the helmet
 than not have it because I'm slightly on the paranoid side.  If
 someone wants to take their chances without a helmet that's fine by
 me, but I'll still mutter a few opinionated words to myself :)

 - Dave

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Re: Adults on bicycles

2006-11-02 Thread Don Williams

Okay I apologise. But a collapsed wheel from a pothole? That must have 
been a hell of a pothole.

Don

John Coyle wrote:
 Don, I'll have to take you to task for suggesting that I did not maintain my 
 bicycle!  The problem was a large uneven pothole, which, because it was 
 dusk, I simply did not see.  I was meticulous in maintenance - almost 
 paranoid, in fact (reflecting Frank's contributions)

 John Coyle
 Brisbane, Australia
 - Original Message - 
 From: Don Williams [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net
 Sent: Thursday, November 02, 2006 5:42 PM
 Subject: Re: Adults on bicycles


 Hi John,

 There must have been something seriously wrong with the bicycle for a
 front wheel to collapse. A little maintenance might have helped -- as
 well as care and attention when riding? A serious fall would do me no
 good whatsoever at 74. I tweak the spokes and check my brakes regularly.
 The route I take over the hill to the village is rocky and steep and so
 these days I stay away from rough terrain when it gets below zero. Once
 my front wheel went sideways on an icy rock and I ended up in a heap.
 The damage was not serious and I was riding again in a week. But
 bicycles, especially those like mine, a Scott mountain bike, need a lot
 of care and attention because they get pretty rough treatment. Ten years
 ago I used to change the tyres in the autumn to a pair with spikes; but
 as the years went by I began to realise that I was not as young as I
 seemed to imagine. If I were to wear a helmet in the autumn (I have one
 for summer) my skull would freeze before I got half a kilometre.

 I'm just about to set off for the village by the way, there's about 50
 cm of snow on the hill. I'll go round and push the 1km to the road.

 Don

 John Coyle wrote:
   
 Having once, many years ago, gone over the handlebars when a front wheel
 collapsed, landing on my face and spending three days in hospital as a
 result, I would prefer to wear a helmet when riding, whether or not I was
 required to do so.
 Note that, in my case, I was on a quiet country road, no other vehicle was
 involved, and I was riding at a reasonably sedate pace, correctly 
 positioned
 on the road.  No amount of care or caution could have prevented that
 accident, as far as I can see, negating some of the arguments put forward 
 in
 this thread.
 It's really like wearing a seat-belt in a car: a helmet won't prevent 
 every
 fatality, but it will reduce the severity of injury in a statistically
 significant number of cases.

 John Coyle
 Brisbane, Australia
 - Original Message - 
 From: David Mann [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net
 Sent: Thursday, November 02, 2006 4:00 PM
 Subject: Re: Adults on bicycles



 
 On Nov 2, 2006, at 10:49 AM, Bob W wrote:


   
 The best protection for cyclists is to learn how to cycle properly
 in traffic.

 
 That helps, but you need to bear in mind that drivers have blind
 spots, are often inattentive (especially while in a hurry), and in
 some cases, as much as I hate to say it, they can be downright
 inconsiderate.  Just as cyclists sometimes are.

 I haven't been bowled by a car for quite a while despite some close
 calls, but the most recent time was when I was hit from the side by a
 guy pulling out of a driveway.  He was running late and his token
 glance for traffic missed the only thing on that stretch of road.
 Sometimes shit just happens, and by then it's too late to wonder
 whether you're going to hit the concrete hard enough to matter.

 In then end, a helmet won't always save someone's life: the reality
 is that in a crash there is a certain amount of impact force applied
 to the head.  The helmet can absorb a certain amount, and spreads the
 rest across that side of the skull.  With a big enough impact nothing
 will save you, and you can easily be killed by other injuries
 anyway.  IMO the helmet gives me worthwhile protection of the one
 thing that won't heal, without getting in my way while riding.

 As you mentioned, prevention by careful riding is the best cure but
 my experience is that this can only reduce the danger - not eliminate
 it.  Riding offroad is an entirely different kettle of fish as the
 terrain is much more interesting, and because I ride that stuff for
 fun, fitness and challenge, crashing is much more likely and in many
 places there are pointy rocks to land on.

 The dynamics of any crash are far too variable to be able to make
 predictions of the outcome, and personally I'd rather have the helmet
 than not have it because I'm slightly on the paranoid side.  If
 someone wants to take their chances without a helmet that's fine by
 me, but I'll still mutter a few opinionated words to myself :)

 - Dave



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Re: Adults on bicycles

2006-11-02 Thread Doug Franklin

mike wilson wrote:

 Short, regularly travelled routes seem to have a disproportionate
 number of accidents.  I don't think anyone has done any work (at
 least, I can't find it online) to work out if that is merely due to
 a statistical function or if there is a human effect at work.

I suspect that it mostly boils down to familiarity breeds contempt.
Those short, regularly traveled routes are the ones where the driver is
most likely to be running on autopilot because they know the route,
and probably also the most likely, therefore, to be where they're doing
everything except paying attention to the traffic ... shaving, putting
on makeup, reading the newspaper, etc.  Those are also the routes I'd
guess people would be most likely to be running late on. :-)

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DougF (KG4LMZ)

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Re: Adults on bicycles

I find it difficult to disagree with you. 8-)))

 From: Doug Franklin [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Date: 2006/11/02 Thu PM 01:13:53 GMT
 To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net
 Subject: Re: Adults on bicycles

 mike wilson wrote:

  Short, regularly travelled routes seem to have a disproportionate
  number of accidents.  I don't think anyone has done any work (at
  least, I can't find it online) to work out if that is merely due to
  a statistical function or if there is a human effect at work.

 I suspect that it mostly boils down to familiarity breeds contempt.
 Those short, regularly traveled routes are the ones where the driver is
 most likely to be running on autopilot because they know the route,
 and probably also the most likely, therefore, to be where they're doing
 everything except paying attention to the traffic ... shaving, putting
 on makeup, reading the newspaper, etc.  Those are also the routes I'd
 guess people would be most likely to be running late on. :-)

 -- 
 Thanks,
 DougF (KG4LMZ)

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Re: Adults on bicycles

2006-11-02 Thread Adam Maas

Sometimes shit happens. My only over-the-handlebars journey was due to a 
failure of the front QR squewer at approximately the same time I hit a 
2 lip of asphalt around a drain grate. Either occurance would have been 
no big deal (Especialy  the lip, since I was riding a mountain bike, and 
going only moderately fast), but  the combo resulted in my going over 
the bars (And then most of the bike going over me). This likely wouldn't 
have happened on a newer bike, but the one I was riding at the time was 
too old to have lawyer tabs to retain the wheel in the event of a QR 
being open or failing.

-Adam


Don Williams wrote:
 Hi John,
 
 There must have been something seriously wrong with the bicycle for a 
 front wheel to collapse. A little maintenance might have helped -- as 
 well as care and attention when riding? A serious fall would do me no 
 good whatsoever at 74. I tweak the spokes and check my brakes regularly. 
 The route I take over the hill to the village is rocky and steep and so 
 these days I stay away from rough terrain when it gets below zero. Once 
 my front wheel went sideways on an icy rock and I ended up in a heap. 
 The damage was not serious and I was riding again in a week. But 
 bicycles, especially those like mine, a Scott mountain bike, need a lot 
 of care and attention because they get pretty rough treatment. Ten years 
 ago I used to change the tyres in the autumn to a pair with spikes; but 
 as the years went by I began to realise that I was not as young as I 
 seemed to imagine. If I were to wear a helmet in the autumn (I have one 
 for summer) my skull would freeze before I got half a kilometre.
 
 I'm just about to set off for the village by the way, there's about 50 
 cm of snow on the hill. I'll go round and push the 1km to the road.
 
 Don
 
 John Coyle wrote:
 Having once, many years ago, gone over the handlebars when a front wheel 
 collapsed, landing on my face and spending three days in hospital as a 
 result, I would prefer to wear a helmet when riding, whether or not I was 
 required to do so.
 Note that, in my case, I was on a quiet country road, no other vehicle was 
 involved, and I was riding at a reasonably sedate pace, correctly positioned 
 on the road.  No amount of care or caution could have prevented that 
 accident, as far as I can see, negating some of the arguments put forward in 
 this thread.
 It's really like wearing a seat-belt in a car: a helmet won't prevent every 
 fatality, but it will reduce the severity of injury in a statistically 
 significant number of cases.

 John Coyle
 Brisbane, Australia
 - Original Message - 
 From: David Mann [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net
 Sent: Thursday, November 02, 2006 4:00 PM
 Subject: Re: Adults on bicycles


   
 On Nov 2, 2006, at 10:49 AM, Bob W wrote:

 
 The best protection for cyclists is to learn how to cycle properly
 in traffic.
   
 That helps, but you need to bear in mind that drivers have blind
 spots, are often inattentive (especially while in a hurry), and in
 some cases, as much as I hate to say it, they can be downright
 inconsiderate.  Just as cyclists sometimes are.

 I haven't been bowled by a car for quite a while despite some close
 calls, but the most recent time was when I was hit from the side by a
 guy pulling out of a driveway.  He was running late and his token
 glance for traffic missed the only thing on that stretch of road.
 Sometimes shit just happens, and by then it's too late to wonder
 whether you're going to hit the concrete hard enough to matter.

 In then end, a helmet won't always save someone's life: the reality
 is that in a crash there is a certain amount of impact force applied
 to the head.  The helmet can absorb a certain amount, and spreads the
 rest across that side of the skull.  With a big enough impact nothing
 will save you, and you can easily be killed by other injuries
 anyway.  IMO the helmet gives me worthwhile protection of the one
 thing that won't heal, without getting in my way while riding.

 As you mentioned, prevention by careful riding is the best cure but
 my experience is that this can only reduce the danger - not eliminate
 it.  Riding offroad is an entirely different kettle of fish as the
 terrain is much more interesting, and because I ride that stuff for
 fun, fitness and challenge, crashing is much more likely and in many
 places there are pointy rocks to land on.

 The dynamics of any crash are far too variable to be able to make
 predictions of the outcome, and personally I'd rather have the helmet
 than not have it because I'm slightly on the paranoid side.  If
 someone wants to take their chances without a helmet that's fine by
 me, but I'll still mutter a few opinionated words to myself :)

 - Dave



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 PDML@pdml.net
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RE: Adults on bicycles

2006-11-02 Thread Malcolm Smith

Doug Franklin wrote:

 I suspect that it mostly boils down to familiarity breeds contempt.
 Those short, regularly traveled routes are the ones where the 
 driver is most likely to be running on autopilot because 
 they know the route, and probably also the most likely, 
 therefore, to be where they're doing everything except paying 
 attention to the traffic ... shaving, putting on makeup, 
 reading the newspaper, etc.  Those are also the routes I'd 
 guess people would be most likely to be running late on. :-)

Every morning I nip down the road to buy a newspaper and have to cross a
slow moving, very busy road. Getting eye contact with a driver to
acknowledge your existence in front of her/him is fairly tricky as the route
is so familiar too them, they do other things to pass the time; in the last
week I've seen the obvious 'phone use, chatting, eating breakfast, finishing
getting dressed for work, tie, collar buttons...Even if they do see you, do
they 'see' you, do you register in their mind?

The speed cameras on sections in the morning that could be activated are
slowed down for and side roads are raced up instead to 'make up the time'.
As a pedestrian crossing the road for a short distance it's alarming enough,
but to share the road space as a cyclist with many of these people has made
me considerably more nervous. I haven't worn a cycle helmet before, but I'll
be looking at them this weekend :-(

Malcolm



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RE: Adults on bicycles

2006-11-02 Thread Bob W

In that case you'd better unsubscribe. Doug B won't want agreement
breaking out all over his list.


 
 I find it difficult to disagree with you. 8-)))
  


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Re: Adults on bicycles

2006-11-02 Thread ann sanfedele

One of my favorite photos ever...
I'm way behind on reading stuff on list -
I was expecting a photo of yours though :)

ann

Bob W wrote:

 Every time I see an adult on a bicycle, said H G Wells, I no longer
 despair for the human race

 Cast your despair to the four winds, and enjoy:
 http://todayspictures.slate.com/20061031/

 --
 Regards,
  Bob

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Re: Adults on bicycles

2006-11-02 Thread graywolf

Proper maintenance of the bicycle? Bicycle wheels are immensely strong 
they support my fat body no problem. They do not just collapse out of 
the blue for no reason.

You folks remind me of those college kids I see jaywalking, If I don't 
look he will not hit me. You have to operate with the idea, He sees 
me, and he is going to try and run me down, so I had better be ready.




John Coyle wrote:
 Having once, many years ago, gone over the handlebars when a front wheel 
 collapsed, landing on my face and spending three days in hospital as a 
 result, I would prefer to wear a helmet when riding, whether or not I was 
 required to do so.
 Note that, in my case, I was on a quiet country road, no other vehicle was 
 involved, and I was riding at a reasonably sedate pace, correctly positioned 
 on the road.  No amount of care or caution could have prevented that 
 accident, as far as I can see, negating some of the arguments put forward in 
 this thread.
 It's really like wearing a seat-belt in a car: a helmet won't prevent every 
 fatality, but it will reduce the severity of injury in a statistically 
 significant number of cases.

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Re: Adults on bicycles

2006-11-02 Thread graywolf

Oh, that is different. I once hit a pothole. It pretzeled the front 
wheel, and bent the frame. I can understand that. Of course I was doing 
35 mph across a park in the middle of the night, so I still say it was 
stupidity rather than an accident.


John Coyle wrote:
 Don, I'll have to take you to task for suggesting that I did not maintain my 
 bicycle!  The problem was a large uneven pothole, which, because it was 
 dusk, I simply did not see.  I was meticulous in maintenance - almost 
 paranoid, in fact (reflecting Frank's contributions)
 
 John Coyle
 Brisbane, Australia
 - Original Message - 
 From: Don Williams [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net
 Sent: Thursday, November 02, 2006 5:42 PM
 Subject: Re: Adults on bicycles
 
 
 Hi John,
 
 There must have been something seriously wrong with the bicycle for a
 front wheel to collapse. A little maintenance might have helped -- as
 well as care and attention when riding? A serious fall would do me no
 good whatsoever at 74. I tweak the spokes and check my brakes regularly.
 The route I take over the hill to the village is rocky and steep and so
 these days I stay away from rough terrain when it gets below zero. Once
 my front wheel went sideways on an icy rock and I ended up in a heap.
 The damage was not serious and I was riding again in a week. But
 bicycles, especially those like mine, a Scott mountain bike, need a lot
 of care and attention because they get pretty rough treatment. Ten years
 ago I used to change the tyres in the autumn to a pair with spikes; but
 as the years went by I began to realise that I was not as young as I
 seemed to imagine. If I were to wear a helmet in the autumn (I have one
 for summer) my skull would freeze before I got half a kilometre.
 
 I'm just about to set off for the village by the way, there's about 50
 cm of snow on the hill. I'll go round and push the 1km to the road.
 
 Don
 
 John Coyle wrote:
 Having once, many years ago, gone over the handlebars when a front wheel
 collapsed, landing on my face and spending three days in hospital as a
 result, I would prefer to wear a helmet when riding, whether or not I was
 required to do so.
 Note that, in my case, I was on a quiet country road, no other vehicle was
 involved, and I was riding at a reasonably sedate pace, correctly 
 positioned
 on the road.  No amount of care or caution could have prevented that
 accident, as far as I can see, negating some of the arguments put forward 
 in
 this thread.
 It's really like wearing a seat-belt in a car: a helmet won't prevent 
 every
 fatality, but it will reduce the severity of injury in a statistically
 significant number of cases.

 John Coyle
 Brisbane, Australia
 - Original Message - 
 From: David Mann [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net
 Sent: Thursday, November 02, 2006 4:00 PM
 Subject: Re: Adults on bicycles



 On Nov 2, 2006, at 10:49 AM, Bob W wrote:


 The best protection for cyclists is to learn how to cycle properly
 in traffic.

 That helps, but you need to bear in mind that drivers have blind
 spots, are often inattentive (especially while in a hurry), and in
 some cases, as much as I hate to say it, they can be downright
 inconsiderate.  Just as cyclists sometimes are.

 I haven't been bowled by a car for quite a while despite some close
 calls, but the most recent time was when I was hit from the side by a
 guy pulling out of a driveway.  He was running late and his token
 glance for traffic missed the only thing on that stretch of road.
 Sometimes shit just happens, and by then it's too late to wonder
 whether you're going to hit the concrete hard enough to matter.

 In then end, a helmet won't always save someone's life: the reality
 is that in a crash there is a certain amount of impact force applied
 to the head.  The helmet can absorb a certain amount, and spreads the
 rest across that side of the skull.  With a big enough impact nothing
 will save you, and you can easily be killed by other injuries
 anyway.  IMO the helmet gives me worthwhile protection of the one
 thing that won't heal, without getting in my way while riding.

 As you mentioned, prevention by careful riding is the best cure but
 my experience is that this can only reduce the danger - not eliminate
 it.  Riding offroad is an entirely different kettle of fish as the
 terrain is much more interesting, and because I ride that stuff for
 fun, fitness and challenge, crashing is much more likely and in many
 places there are pointy rocks to land on.

 The dynamics of any crash are far too variable to be able to make
 predictions of the outcome, and personally I'd rather have the helmet
 than not have it because I'm slightly on the paranoid side.  If
 someone wants to take their chances without a helmet that's fine by
 me, but I'll still mutter a few opinionated words to myself :)

 - Dave



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Re: Adults on bicycles

2006-11-02 Thread graywolf

I suggest that folks read Effective Cycling by John Forester with a open 
mind, then think critically about what he says because his information 
is based upon the facts, not the feelings involved. Riding according to 
his teachings I have never even had a near accident even when commuting 
in big city rush hour traffic. The establishment disagrees with about 
everything he says therein, but they have no facts to support their 
disagreement, just feelings, very strong feelings... and a lot of ignorance.


Bob W wrote:
 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On 
 Behalf Of David Mann

 On Nov 2, 2006, at 10:49 AM, Bob W wrote:

 The best protection for cyclists is to learn how to cycle properly
 
 in traffic.
 [...]
 The dynamics of any crash are far too variable to be able to make  
 predictions of the outcome, and personally I'd rather have 
 the helmet  
 than not have it because I'm slightly on the paranoid side.  If  
 someone wants to take their chances without a helmet that's fine by
 
 me, but I'll still mutter a few opinionated words to myself :)

 
 You make your own choices (or do you? isn't it compulsory in NZ?), and
 you're entitled to your opinion, of course, but your opinion isn't
 obviously supported by facts. A lot of people think it's intuitively
 obvious that a helmet offers more protection than no helmet, but they
 don't appear to offer any protection against the most serious types of
 head injuries, and there is plenty of evidence that they increase the
 likelihood of those injuries. 
 
 The case for helmets is massively overstated, and certainly does not
 offer any justification whatsoever for making it a legal requirement
 to wear one.
 
 Until earlier this year I was of the general opinion that helmets were
 probably safer than no helmets, but I didn't wear one because I simply
 don't like them. Some people I spoke to about it were horrified to
 learn that I don't use one, and I couldn't understand the strength of
 their reaction - cycling has never seemed like an unsafe activity to
 me. So I started looking into the facts and the arguments for and
 against, and I am simply not convinced that cycle helmets have any
 worthwhile value. I suspect that most people just accept the
 propaganda at face value without looking into it.
 
 Regards,
 Bob
 
 

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RE: Adults on bicycles

2006-11-02 Thread Bob W

Ann, 

there's a whole series of bike photos there (none of them mine though)
- follow the Next link. Slate is not a well-designed user interface,
but the photos are good.

Here are some of my bike photos (family snaps, not Magnum standard),
starting in the middle with a literary joke that might appeal to you:
http://www.web-options.com/Hadrian/pages/Hadrian%27s%20Wall68.htm
(have I already posted this?)

--
Cheers,
 Bob
 

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On 
 Behalf Of ann sanfedele
 Sent: 02 November 2006 15:20
 To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List
 Subject: Re: Adults on bicycles
 
 One of my favorite photos ever...
 I'm way behind on reading stuff on list -
 I was expecting a photo of yours though :)
 
 ann
 
 Bob W wrote:
 
  Every time I see an adult on a bicycle, said H G Wells, 
 I no longer
  despair for the human race
 
  Cast your despair to the four winds, and enjoy:
  http://todayspictures.slate.com/20061031/
 
  --
  Regards,
   Bob
 
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RE: Adults on bicycles

 From: Malcolm Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Date: 2006/11/02 Thu PM 02:30:47 GMT
 To: 'Pentax-Discuss Mail List' pdml@pdml.net
 Subject: RE: Adults on bicycles

 Doug Franklin wrote:

  I suspect that it mostly boils down to familiarity breeds contempt.
  Those short, regularly traveled routes are the ones where the 
  driver is most likely to be running on autopilot because 
  they know the route, and probably also the most likely, 
  therefore, to be where they're doing everything except paying 
  attention to the traffic ... shaving, putting on makeup, 
  reading the newspaper, etc.  Those are also the routes I'd 
  guess people would be most likely to be running late on. :-)

 Every morning I nip down the road to buy a newspaper and have to cross a
 slow moving, very busy road. Getting eye contact with a driver to
 acknowledge your existence in front of her/him is fairly tricky as the route
 is so familiar too them, they do other things to pass the time; in the last
 week I've seen the obvious 'phone use, chatting, eating breakfast, finishing
 getting dressed for work, tie, collar buttons...Even if they do see you, do
 they 'see' you, do you register in their mind?

 The speed cameras on sections in the morning that could be activated are
 slowed down for and side roads are raced up instead to 'make up the time'.
 As a pedestrian crossing the road for a short distance it's alarming enough,
 but to share the road space as a cyclist with many of these people has made
 me considerably more nervous. I haven't worn a cycle helmet before, but I'll
 be looking at them this weekend :-(

 Malcolm

Being on the large side, I find that some ferocious wobbling makes most car 
divers keep well away.

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Re: Adults on bicycles

2006-11-02 Thread Gonz



[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 On Wed, Nov 01, 2006 at 09:12:22PM -, Bob W wrote:
 
Your wise neurosurgeon might care to reflect on this:
(http://www.cyclecraft.co.uk/digest/effectiveness.pdf)

... the average distance cycled per person in the UK each year is
only 62 km42 (and in the Netherlands only 850 km43), so the average
cyclist would expect a serious injury only once in more than 80 lifetimes.
 
 
 That would only be true if the likelihood of accident was directly
 proportional to distance travelled, which is a questionable assumption.
 
 Compare this, for example, to the equally often-quoted figure that
 50% of all automobile accidents occur within 1.5 miles of the home.
 If this is true, and if the probability of an accident is directly
 proportional to the length of the journey, then we are forced to the
 conclusion that the average journey in an automobile is three miles.
 This is plainly ridiculous, so one of the underlying assumptions
 must be wrong.
 
 
Hmm, it might just be right.  In my household, besides driving to work 
(15miles and 6miles), there are mostly short trips: grocery shopping 1 
mile, post office 1/2 mile, gym 1/4 mile, gas fillup varies but about 1 
mile avg, other shopping 3 miles, movies etc 5 miles, eating out usually 
within 5 miles, dropping the kids off to school 1 mile.  I guess it 
depends on how close everything is to you.  The more rural you are, the 
further you have to go for everything.  For people in a dense urban 
environment (and more likely to have accidents) the average driving 
distance must be really short.

rg

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RE: Adults on bicycles

2006-11-02 Thread Bob W

  In my household, besides 
 driving to work 
 (15miles and 6miles), there are mostly short trips: [...] gym 1/4
mile,

Mark!

--
Cheers,
 Bob
 

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On 
 Behalf Of Gonz
 Sent: 02 November 2006 16:30
 To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List
 Subject: Re: Adults on bicycles
 
 
 
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  On Wed, Nov 01, 2006 at 09:12:22PM -, Bob W wrote:
  
 Your wise neurosurgeon might care to reflect on this:
 (http://www.cyclecraft.co.uk/digest/effectiveness.pdf)
 
 ... the average distance cycled per person in the UK each year is
 only 62 km42 (and in the Netherlands only 850 km43), so the
average
 cyclist would expect a serious injury only once in more 
 than 80 lifetimes.
  
  
  That would only be true if the likelihood of accident was directly
  proportional to distance travelled, which is a questionable 
 assumption.
  
  Compare this, for example, to the equally often-quoted figure that
  50% of all automobile accidents occur within 1.5 miles of the
home.
  If this is true, and if the probability of an accident is directly
  proportional to the length of the journey, then we are forced to
the
  conclusion that the average journey in an automobile is three
miles.
  This is plainly ridiculous, so one of the underlying assumptions
  must be wrong.
  
  
 Hmm, it might just be right.  In my household, besides 
 driving to work 
 (15miles and 6miles), there are mostly short trips: grocery 
 shopping 1 
 mile, post office 1/2 mile, gym 1/4 mile, gas fillup varies 
 but about 1 
 mile avg, other shopping 3 miles, movies etc 5 miles, eating 
 out usually 
 within 5 miles, dropping the kids off to school 1 mile.  I guess it 
 depends on how close everything is to you.  The more rural 
 you are, the 
 further you have to go for everything.  For people in a dense urban 
 environment (and more likely to have accidents) the average driving 
 distance must be really short.
 
 rg
 
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Re: Adults on bicycles

2006-11-02 Thread John Francis


Can I recommend to you a short story, ... All You Zombies,
by Robert Heinlein?   This involves levels of consanguinity
far more complicated than simply being your own niece.

It can be found, together with the excellent And He Built
a Crooked House, in a collection entitled The Unpleasant
Profession of Jonathan Hoag.


On Thu, Nov 02, 2006 at 08:18:38AM +, mike wilson wrote:
 I thought being your own grandpaw was quite common in some parts of the US?  
 8-) Being your own niece is probably much more difficult for someone of the 
 masculine persuasion.
  
  From: graywolf [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  Date: 2006/11/01 Wed PM 09:26:40 GMT
  To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net
  Subject: Re: Adults on bicycles
  
  That makes as much sense as anything else in this thread...
  
  Bob W wrote:
   thanks to the magic of HG's time machine, Orson was simultaneously his
   grandfather and his niece.
   
   --
   Cheers,
Bob

   
   -Original Message-
   From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On 
   Behalf Of graywolf
   Sent: 01 November 2006 12:23
   To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List
   Subject: Re: Adults on bicycles
  
   Oh, well, I was having one of those senior moments and was 
   thinking of 
   Orson Wells who became famous with a radio broadcast based 
   upon one of 
   HG's stories. I wonder if they were related? Yes, I know I could
   look 
   that up...
  
   
   
  
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Re: Adults on bicycles

2006-11-02 Thread Shel Belinkoff

LOL

Based on a 30 stride, that's 528 steps.

Shel



 [Original Message]
 From: Gonz 

 In my household, besides driving to work 
 (15miles and 6miles), there are mostly short trips: 
 gym 1/4 mile



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Re: Adults on bicycles

2006-11-02 Thread frank theriault

On 11/2/06, David Mann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 On Nov 2, 2006, at 10:49 AM, Bob W wrote:

  The best protection for cyclists is to learn how to cycle properly
  in traffic.

 That helps, but you need to bear in mind that drivers have blind
 spots, are often inattentive (especially while in a hurry), and in
 some cases, as much as I hate to say it, they can be downright
 inconsiderate.  Just as cyclists sometimes are.

 I haven't been bowled by a car for quite a while despite some close
 calls, but the most recent time was when I was hit from the side by a
 guy pulling out of a driveway.  He was running late and his token
 glance for traffic missed the only thing on that stretch of road.
 Sometimes shit just happens, and by then it's too late to wonder
 whether you're going to hit the concrete hard enough to matter.

 In then end, a helmet won't always save someone's life: the reality
 is that in a crash there is a certain amount of impact force applied
 to the head.  The helmet can absorb a certain amount, and spreads the
 rest across that side of the skull.  With a big enough impact nothing
 will save you, and you can easily be killed by other injuries
 anyway.  IMO the helmet gives me worthwhile protection of the one
 thing that won't heal, without getting in my way while riding.

 As you mentioned, prevention by careful riding is the best cure but
 my experience is that this can only reduce the danger - not eliminate
 it.  Riding offroad is an entirely different kettle of fish as the
 terrain is much more interesting, and because I ride that stuff for
 fun, fitness and challenge, crashing is much more likely and in many
 places there are pointy rocks to land on.

 The dynamics of any crash are far too variable to be able to make
 predictions of the outcome, and personally I'd rather have the helmet
 than not have it because I'm slightly on the paranoid side.  If
 someone wants to take their chances without a helmet that's fine by
 me, but I'll still mutter a few opinionated words to myself :)

 - Dave

Hear, hear!!

That's a lucid, well-organized, well-presented argument, Dave.  (of
course, I only say that because I agree 100%)  LOL

cheers,
frank


-- 
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Re: Adults on bicycles

2006-11-02 Thread Gonz

We drop off the kids to go swimming.

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 LOL
 
 Based on a 30 stride, that's 528 steps.
 
 Shel
 
 
 
 
[Original Message]
From: Gonz 
 
 
In my household, besides driving to work 
(15miles and 6miles), there are mostly short trips: 
gym 1/4 mile
 
 
 
 

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Re: Adults on bicycles

Bob W wrote:
 Ann, 
 
 there's a whole series of bike photos there (none of them mine though)
 - follow the Next link. Slate is not a well-designed user interface,
 but the photos are good.
 
 Here are some of my bike photos (family snaps, not Magnum standard),
 starting in the middle with a literary joke that might appeal to you:
 http://www.web-options.com/Hadrian/pages/Hadrian%27s%20Wall68.htm
 (have I already posted this?)
 
 --
 Cheers,
  Bob

You sent me the link but that was after I'd been away.

  
 
 
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On 
Behalf Of ann sanfedele
Sent: 02 November 2006 15:20
To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List
Subject: Re: Adults on bicycles

One of my favorite photos ever...
I'm way behind on reading stuff on list -
I was expecting a photo of yours though :)

ann

Bob W wrote:


Every time I see an adult on a bicycle, said H G Wells, 

I no longer

despair for the human race

Cast your despair to the four winds, and enjoy:
http://todayspictures.slate.com/20061031/

--
Regards,
 Bob

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Re: Adults on bicycles

2006-11-02 Thread David Mann

On Nov 2, 2006, at 8:15 PM, Bob W wrote:

 You make your own choices (or do you? isn't it compulsory in NZ?)

It is compulsory in NZ, and I just happen to agree that wearing a  
helmet is a good idea for my situation.  I may have become  
indoctrinated by the requirement though :)

The way things are going, I'm almost surprised that I'm not required  
to wear a metre-thick layer of bubblewrap at all times.

 , and you're entitled to your opinion, of course, but your opinion  
 isn't
 obviously supported by facts. A lot of people think it's intuitively
 obvious that a helmet offers more protection than no helmet, but they
 don't appear to offer any protection against the most serious types of
 head injuries, and there is plenty of evidence that they increase the
 likelihood of those injuries.

Nothing can guarantee protection against a really serious head  
injury.  The impact is just too large, and even the best helmets can  
only absorb so much of it.  Personally I doubt they can absorb much;  
the biggest benefit will come from the fact that the impact force is  
spread across the whole head rather than being concentrated on the  
tiny part of the skull that makes contact with the ground.  So it'll  
protect against painful grazes and bruising, it might turn a  
potential cracked skull (ouch!) into a concussion, but anything  
really big is still rolling the dice.

I lean slightly towards the paranoid side and I believe that a helmet  
_can_ help in many situations, and I've heard enough tales from  
people who are only alive today because of one, so I consider it to  
be worth the insignificant expense/inconvenience.  I don't exactly  
relish the prospect of even a minor head injury!

I'm not going to offer any arguments for or against the legal  
mandating of helmets, mainly as I haven't studied the statistics or  
the limitations of the processes used to obtain and interpret them.   
I'm not sure that statistics will tell the full story, as they'll  
only be based on what was reported (I could go out on some tangents  
here).  Merely counting the incidence of serious injuries in a large  
population isn't going to tell me enough to form a full opinion.   
OTOH, neither is talking to a bunch of fellow bikers :)

Another facet which I don't think has been mentioned yet is  
insurance.  In NZ we'll never be refused treatment or the subsequent  
rehabilitation but there may be a condition in my life insurance that  
would deny payment if I was found to be breaking the law, or not  
using what the insurers might define as reasonable safety  
precautions, by not wearing a helmet.  By that stage I wouldn't be  
around to care, but it would make things a bit more difficult for my  
partner.

- Dave



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Re: Adults on bicycles

2006-11-01 Thread Cotty

On 1/11/06, Bob W, discombobulated, unleashed:

Hmm. Maybe.

That's a small crack of willingness I can just get my crowbar of
persuasion into

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Re: Adults on bicycles

2006-11-01 Thread mike wilson

 From: graywolf [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Date: 2006/11/01 Wed AM 01:47:38 GMT
 To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net
 Subject: Re: Adults on bicycles

 Let's see, did he say that before WWII when almost no adults in the US 
 rode bicycles, durning WWII when many rode out of necessity, after WWII 
 when adults never would be caught on one in fear that others would think 
 they could not afford an automobile, or in the 70's and later when 
 bicycles became a high tech fad? He wasn't around in the 1880's when it 
 was a wild wild craze.

On the contrary, he was in his physical peak (born 1860something) at that time 
and almost certainly participated.  It was the only way to meet ladies who were 
willing to wear skirts above the ankle.  He was probably remeniscing in his 
dotage.

 Inquiring minds want to know grin... When do we set the Wayback 
 Machine for, Peabody?

 Bob W wrote:
  Every time I see an adult on a bicycle, said H G Wells, I no longer
  despair for the human race

  Cast your despair to the four winds, and enjoy:
  http://todayspictures.slate.com/20061031/

  --
  Regards,
   Bob 

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Re: Adults on bicycles

I have only rode bicycles for a short while, less than sixty years, but 
I have never fallen off and landed on my head. Most of my contemporaries 
managed to get through at least childhood without wearing a helmet too. 
I imagine those laws sure do make a lot of money for the helmet sellers, 
however.

I have my own opinion about who is a stupid git in this issue, people 
who fall on their heads all the time!

--graywolf


David Mann wrote:
 On Nov 1, 2006, at 5:29 AM, Bertil Holmberg wrote:
 
 The up to date version should be:

 Every time I see and adult cyclist wearing a helmet, I no longer
 despair for the human race
 
 Last week I saw a fellow riding down one of our local trails without  
 a helmet.  I don't care that it was the easiest track on the hill, or  
 that he was going slowly; he's still a stupid git.  Technically he  
 may have been breaking the law due to the paper-road status of that  
 track.
 
 My own helmet saved me from a nasty knock last Saturday.  Pity I  
 almost broke my thumb as well, so I can't ride offroad for now...  
 although I might do some hill climbs this weekend as I need to work  
 off the sympathy chocolate.  I think I can manage braking on the  
 road, so getting back down shouldn't be too hair-raising.
 
 - Dave (have you ever tried to brush your teeth with the other hand?)
 
 
 

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Re: Adults on bicycles

Oh, well, I was having one of those senior moments and was thinking of 
Orson Wells who became famous with a radio broadcast based upon one of 
HG's stories. I wonder if they were related? Yes, I know I could look 
that up...

mike wilson wrote:
 From: graywolf [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Date: 2006/11/01 Wed AM 01:47:38 GMT
 To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net
 Subject: Re: Adults on bicycles

 Let's see, did he say that before WWII when almost no adults in the US 
 rode bicycles, durning WWII when many rode out of necessity, after WWII 
 when adults never would be caught on one in fear that others would think 
 they could not afford an automobile, or in the 70's and later when 
 bicycles became a high tech fad? He wasn't around in the 1880's when it 
 was a wild wild craze.

 On the contrary, he was in his physical peak (born 1860something) at that 
 time and almost certainly participated.  It was the only way to meet ladies 
 who were willing to wear skirts above the ankle.  He was probably remeniscing 
 in his dotage.

 Inquiring minds want to know grin... When do we set the Wayback 
 Machine for, Peabody?

 Bob W wrote:
 Every time I see an adult on a bicycle, said H G Wells, I no longer
 despair for the human race

 Cast your despair to the four winds, and enjoy:
 http://todayspictures.slate.com/20061031/

 --
 Regards,
  Bob 

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Re: Adults on bicycles

2006-11-01 Thread Digital Image Studio

On 01/11/06, graywolf [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 I have only rode bicycles for a short while, less than sixty years, but
 I have never fallen off and landed on my head. Most of my contemporaries
 managed to get through at least childhood without wearing a helmet too.
 I imagine those laws sure do make a lot of money for the helmet sellers,
 however.

 I have my own opinion about who is a stupid git in this issue, people
 who fall on their heads all the time!

It's law in every state here too.

Evaluation of the Bicycle Helmet Wearing Law in Victoria during its
First Four Years
http://www.monash.edu.au/muarc/reports/muarc076.html

http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/2000/Bic_Crash_5.aspx

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Re: Adults on bicycles

2006-11-01 Thread frank theriault

On 11/1/06, graywolf [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 I have only rode bicycles for a short while, less than sixty years, but
 I have never fallen off and landed on my head. Most of my contemporaries
 managed to get through at least childhood without wearing a helmet too.
 I imagine those laws sure do make a lot of money for the helmet sellers,
 however.

 I have my own opinion about who is a stupid git in this issue, people
 who fall on their heads all the time!

I'm always amused when I hear the money issue brought up WRT helmets.
Just last night, on my way home in the dark, I passed another cyclist
who had no lights, thus breaking the law.  I wondered why one would
spend from several hundred to several thousand dollars on a bike
wouldn't spend another $15 on a headlight - at that price theyr'e
almost disposable.

The same goes for helmets.  One can be gotten for as cheap as $30US or
less.  I doubt that many helmet makers are making a whole hell of a
lot on their cheapest helmets.

All that being said, perhaps I'm a stupid git.  I've had at least
three occasions in the past few years where I fell from my bike and
struck my head.  I believe that on at least two of those occasions my
helmet saved me from a concussion, or worse.  Seems to me that being a
stupid git, I have to jealously guard the few brain cells I have left,
so a helmet's a pretty good idea for the likes of me.

Then there's always the possibility that a cyclist may be completely
in the right, and that a car might be in the wrong and hit a cyclist.
Since cars have a mass of some 20 times that of a bicycle and rider,
physics tend to be on the side of the car in collisions.  I'll take
whatever protection I can, especially if it's unobtrusive and
inexpensive.

OTOH, it is a personal decision, and I wouldn't think less of someone
who has perhaps decided that they don't want or need a helmet...

cheers,
frank

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Re: Adults on bicycles

On Wed, 01 Nov 2006 13:03:49 -, frank theriault  
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 On 11/1/06, graywolf [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 I have only rode bicycles for a short while, less than sixty years, but
 I have never fallen off and landed on my head. Most of my contemporaries
 managed to get through at least childhood without wearing a helmet too.
 I imagine those laws sure do make a lot of money for the helmet sellers,
 however.

 I have my own opinion about who is a stupid git in this issue, people
 who fall on their heads all the time!

 I'm always amused when I hear the money issue brought up WRT helmets.
 Just last night, on my way home in the dark, I passed another cyclist
 who had no lights, thus breaking the law.  I wondered why one would
 spend from several hundred to several thousand dollars on a bike
 wouldn't spend another $15 on a headlight - at that price theyr'e
 almost disposable.

 The same goes for helmets.  One can be gotten for as cheap as $30US or
 less.  I doubt that many helmet makers are making a whole hell of a
 lot on their cheapest helmets.

 All that being said, perhaps I'm a stupid git.  I've had at least
 three occasions in the past few years where I fell from my bike and
 struck my head.  I believe that on at least two of those occasions my
 helmet saved me from a concussion, or worse.  Seems to me that being a
 stupid git, I have to jealously guard the few brain cells I have left,
 so a helmet's a pretty good idea for the likes of me.

 Then there's always the possibility that a cyclist may be completely
 in the right, and that a car might be in the wrong and hit a cyclist.
 Since cars have a mass of some 20 times that of a bicycle and rider,
 physics tend to be on the side of the car in collisions.  I'll take
 whatever protection I can, especially if it's unobtrusive and
 inexpensive.

Here lies the body of Michael O'Shay,
Who died defending the right of way.
He was right, dead right, as he sailed along,
But he's just as dead as if he'd been wrong.

I don't tend to wear a helmet, though common sense dictates that I  
should.  On the other hand, I don't like the nanny state telling me what  
to do.

The only dead person I have seen in the UK, outside a coffin, was a  
cyclist who had just been knocked over.

John

 OTOH, it is a personal decision, and I wouldn't think less of someone
 who has perhaps decided that they don't want or need a helmet...

 cheers,
 frank




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Re: Adults on bicycles

2006-11-01 Thread mike wilson

 From: Digital Image Studio [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Date: 2006/11/01 Wed PM 12:30:05 GMT
 To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net
 Subject: Re: Adults on bicycles

 On 01/11/06, graywolf [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  I have only rode bicycles for a short while, less than sixty years, but
  I have never fallen off and landed on my head. Most of my contemporaries
  managed to get through at least childhood without wearing a helmet too.
  I imagine those laws sure do make a lot of money for the helmet sellers,
  however.

  I have my own opinion about who is a stupid git in this issue, people
  who fall on their heads all the time!

 It's law in every state here too.

 Evaluation of the Bicycle Helmet Wearing Law in Victoria during its
 First Four Years
 http://www.monash.edu.au/muarc/reports/muarc076.html

 http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/2000/Bic_Crash_5.aspx

What utter twaddle.  It gives a number representing the reduction in facial 
injuries when wearing a bicycle helmet.  Possibly that is due to the peak 
catching on the road and tipping your head forwards, therefore preventing your 
face rubbing on the surface.  Which might explain the increase in neck 
injuries..

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Re: Adults on bicycles

2006-11-01 Thread Godfrey DiGiorgi


On Nov 1, 2006, at 5:23 AM, John Forbes wrote:

 Here lies the body of Michael O'Shay,
 Who died defending the right of way.
 He was right, dead right, as he sailed along,
 But he's just as dead as if he'd been wrong.

 I don't tend to wear a helmet, though common sense dictates that I
 should.  On the other hand, I don't like the nanny state telling me  
 what
 to do.

I never listened to the nanny state. When I was a child, bicycle  
helmets were uncommon and I rode without one. But from the point of  
being age 16 and beyond, I got away from bicycles, rode motorcycles  
and hung around racing cars ... and anyone with any brains in their  
heads knew that wearing a helmet was essential for survival if  
anything untoward occurred in those endeavors. When I took up  
bicycling again as a young adult, riding without a helmet was  
unthinkable to me. A dear friend of mine nearly lost his life in a  
bicycle accident right around then, 25 years ago; without the helmet  
he would have been dead. He survives to this day, still rides.

I didn't realize until this thread came up that they were required by  
law now, even though I bought a new bicycle, new helmet and riding  
gloves this past summer. Riding without a helmet on a bicycle is just  
about as unthinkable to me as riding a motocycle, or flying to the  
moon, without one.

G

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RE: Adults on bicycles

2006-11-01 Thread Tim Øsleby

One of the symptoms after a head injury is lack of memory. Especially about
the accident itself. 

Draw your own conclusions Tom ;-)


Tim (who tend to forget using a helmet when riding a bike)


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
graywolf
Sent: 1. november 2006 13:14
To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List
Subject: Re: Adults on bicycles

I have only rode bicycles for a short while, less than sixty years, but 
I have never fallen off and landed on my head. Most of my contemporaries 
managed to get through at least childhood without wearing a helmet too. 
I imagine those laws sure do make a lot of money for the helmet sellers, 
however.

I have my own opinion about who is a stupid git in this issue, people 
who fall on their heads all the time!

--graywolf


David Mann wrote:
 On Nov 1, 2006, at 5:29 AM, Bertil Holmberg wrote:
 
 The up to date version should be:

 Every time I see and adult cyclist wearing a helmet, I no longer
 despair for the human race
 
 Last week I saw a fellow riding down one of our local trails without  
 a helmet.  I don't care that it was the easiest track on the hill, or  
 that he was going slowly; he's still a stupid git.  Technically he  
 may have been breaking the law due to the paper-road status of that  
 track.
 
 My own helmet saved me from a nasty knock last Saturday.  Pity I  
 almost broke my thumb as well, so I can't ride offroad for now...  
 although I might do some hill climbs this weekend as I need to work  
 off the sympathy chocolate.  I think I can manage braking on the  
 road, so getting back down shouldn't be too hair-raising.
 
 - Dave (have you ever tried to brush your teeth with the other hand?)
 
 
 

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RE: Adults on bicycles

 
 The only dead person I have seen in the UK, outside a coffin, was a

 cyclist who had just been knocked over.
 
 John
 

I guess you've been lucky. I've seen dead motorists, dead shoppers who
were waiting for a lift, and dead motor-cyclists (all wearing
helmets), but never a dead cyclist.

Bob


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RE: Adults on bicycles

My crack may open wider for you, Cotty...

I have 5 days more holiday this year than last (but still no time to
take it all!) and I need to plan how to use it.

--
Cheers,
 Bob
 

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On 
 Behalf Of Cotty
 Sent: 01 November 2006 08:05
 To: pentax list
 Subject: Re: Adults on bicycles
 
 On 1/11/06, Bob W, discombobulated, unleashed:
 
 Hmm. Maybe.
 
 That's a small crack of willingness I can just get my crowbar of
 persuasion into
 
 -- 
 
 
 Cheers,
   Cotty
 
 
 ___/\__
 ||   (O)   | People, Places, Pastiche
 ||=|http://www.cottysnaps.com
 _
 
 
 
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RE: Adults on bicycles

 
 
 OTOH, it is a personal decision, and I wouldn't think less of
someone
 who has perhaps decided that they don't want or need a helmet...
 

Precisely, and I would not think less of someone who chose to wear
one. I am an adult of sound mind. It's not for some
health-and-safety-obsessed busybody to tell me what to do. 

If I were taking part in one of the dangerous cycling activities, such
as hell-for-leather off-road riding down rock-strewn mountains, I
would wear some serious safety gear, including a helmet. Maybe even
two. However, road touring, commuting and occasional off-road cycling
such as bridleways and towpaths is no more dangerous than walking
provided one knows how to deal with traffic, which I do.

And for every academic, statistical study which shows that helmet laws
lengthen lives, an equal number can be quoted that show they make no
difference, or even (paradoxically) shorten lives. Here is an
anti-helmet-law site:
http://www.cycle-helmets.com/england_helmets.html

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Re: Re: Adults on bicycles

2006-11-01 Thread DagT

I use a bike to get to work from the beginning of April to the end of October 
each year and I never used a helmet (or had an accident) until last year.  Then 
someone reminded me that my head was realy not only mine any more and that I 
have three kids who at least partially depend on it.

Then I started using a helmet.

DagT 
 
 Fra: graywolf [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
 I have only rode bicycles for a short while, less than sixty years, but 
 I have never fallen off and landed on my head. Most of my contemporaries 
 managed to get through at least childhood without wearing a helmet too. 
 I imagine those laws sure do make a lot of money for the helmet sellers, 
 however.
 
 I have my own opinion about who is a stupid git in this issue, people 
 who fall on their heads all the time!
 
 --graywolf
 
 
 David Mann wrote:
  On Nov 1, 2006, at 5:29 AM, Bertil Holmberg wrote:
  
  The up to date version should be:
 
  Every time I see and adult cyclist wearing a helmet, I no longer
  despair for the human race
  
  Last week I saw a fellow riding down one of our local trails without  
  a helmet.  I don't care that it was the easiest track on the hill, or  
  that he was going slowly; he's still a stupid git.  Technically he  
  may have been breaking the law due to the paper-road status of that  
  track.
  
  My own helmet saved me from a nasty knock last Saturday.  Pity I  
  almost broke my thumb as well, so I can't ride offroad for now...  
  although I might do some hill climbs this weekend as I need to work  
  off the sympathy chocolate.  I think I can manage braking on the  
  road, so getting back down shouldn't be too hair-raising.
  
  - Dave (have you ever tried to brush your teeth with the other hand?)
  
  
  
 
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Re: Adults on bicycles

2006-11-01 Thread Mat Maessen

On 11/1/06, frank theriault [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Then there's always the possibility that a cyclist may be completely
 in the right, and that a car might be in the wrong and hit a cyclist.
 Since cars have a mass of some 20 times that of a bicycle and rider,
 physics tend to be on the side of the car in collisions.  I'll take
 whatever protection I can, especially if it's unobtrusive and
 inexpensive.

There's a saying in the motorcycle community:

'I had the right of way' is a terrible epithet for your gravestone.

I still have the scars on my arm from a bicycle accident I had when I
was 14. The helmet saved my life in that accident by striking the
stone wall and shattering into a million pieces. I still wear the
helmet that I bought to replace that one.

-Mat

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RE: Adults on bicycles

2006-11-01 Thread Bertil Holmberg

My old neurosurgery teacher said:

”It is wise to use a helmet,
it protects the brain,
that is were the wisdom is located.

Regards,
Bertil


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Re: Adults on bicycles

2006-11-01 Thread Bob Sullivan

I believe the law should read, If you won't wear a helmet on your
motorcycle, no public funds or insurance monies may be used to support
your life or recovery after an accident.
Bicycle riding is another matter, but still deserves the helmet.
Regards,  Bob S.

On 11/1/06, Mat Maessen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 On 11/1/06, frank theriault [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  Then there's always the possibility that a cyclist may be completely
  in the right, and that a car might be in the wrong and hit a cyclist.
  Since cars have a mass of some 20 times that of a bicycle and rider,
  physics tend to be on the side of the car in collisions.  I'll take
  whatever protection I can, especially if it's unobtrusive and
  inexpensive.

 There's a saying in the motorcycle community:

 'I had the right of way' is a terrible epithet for your gravestone.

 I still have the scars on my arm from a bicycle accident I had when I
 was 14. The helmet saved my life in that accident by striking the
 stone wall and shattering into a million pieces. I still wear the
 helmet that I bought to replace that one.

 -Mat

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RE: Adults on bicycles

thanks to the magic of HG's time machine, Orson was simultaneously his
grandfather and his niece.

--
Cheers,
 Bob
 

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On 
 Behalf Of graywolf
 Sent: 01 November 2006 12:23
 To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List
 Subject: Re: Adults on bicycles
 
 Oh, well, I was having one of those senior moments and was 
 thinking of 
 Orson Wells who became famous with a radio broadcast based 
 upon one of 
 HG's stories. I wonder if they were related? Yes, I know I could
look 
 that up...
 


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RE: Adults on bicycles

Your wise neurosurgeon might care to reflect on this:
(http://www.cyclecraft.co.uk/digest/effectiveness.pdf)

... the average distance cycled per person in the UK each year is
only 62 km42 (and in the
Netherlands only 850 km43), so the average cyclist would expect a
serious injury only once in more
than 80 lifetimes.

In Australia the promotion of helmets for car occupants is being
considered. Research by the
University of Adelaide and Monash University44 has shown that
bicycle-style helmets would afford
motorists more protection than interior padding, air bags or seat
belts. Helmets could lessen the
severity of 50% to 60% of motorist brain injuries and avoid 1 in 5
fatal crashes.

A subsequent report from New Zealand45 notes that helmets for car
occupants have been proved to be
more effective in preventing serious injury than helmets for cyclists.

Conclusions
The wearing of helmets by cyclists is a controversial and very emotive
subject. It is not always easy to
disentangle fact from conjecture and views can be strongly polarised.
Also, people often find it
difficult to make a logical assessment of relative risk.

Although there has been much research into cycle helmets, too much of
this is suspect with regard to
assumptons made and control groups used. It does not relate well to
real-world circumstances. Most
research has been predictive in nature and based on small samples.
Little has looked at the results that
have actually been achieved in large population samples when helmet
use has increased significantly.
No research has put the risk of head injury when cycling into
perspective with the risk from other
common activities and the overall effect on life expectancy and
health.

It seems reasonable to expect that reductions in injuries brought
about through the wearing of cycle
helmets would be reflected in the general accident statistics in
places where helmet use has become
significant. This should particularly be the case if the more
optimistic predictions for injury reduction
are correct. However, whole population statistics from Australia, New
Zealand, the United States and
Canada show no distinguishable change in fatalities, and statistics
for London show no such change
for any severity of injury, as helmet use has increased substantially.

This suggests that the real-world performance of cycle helmets may be
falling well short of the
predictions that have been made.


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 Bob
 

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On 
 Behalf Of Bertil Holmberg
 Sent: 01 November 2006 20:50
 To: pdml@pdml.net
 Subject: RE: Adults on bicycles
 
 My old neurosurgery teacher said:
 
 It is wise to use a helmet,
 it protects the brain,
 that is were the wisdom is located.
 
 Regards,
 Bertil
 
 
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Re: Adults on bicycles

2006-11-01 Thread Scott Loveless

On 11/1/06, Bob Sullivan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 I believe the law should read, If you won't wear a helmet on your
 motorcycle, no public funds or insurance monies may be used to support
 your life or recovery after an accident.
 Bicycle riding is another matter, but still deserves the helmet.
 Regards,  Bob S.


This is actually very interesting, Bob.  A few years ago Kentucky
partially repealed their helmet law for motorcyclists.  If you're 21
or older and carry a certain amount of bodily injury insurance, you
can ride without one.  If you're younger or don't want to pay for the
extra insurance, buying only the state minimum, you have to wear it.
I like this thinking.  Puts responsibility on the rider, and takes it
off the taxpayer.  I'm not sure if the state will cover medical
expenses once the insurance runs out.

-- 
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Re: Adults on bicycles

2006-11-01 Thread Scott Loveless

On 11/1/06, Mat Maessen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 On 11/1/06, frank theriault [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  Then there's always the possibility that a cyclist may be completely
  in the right, and that a car might be in the wrong and hit a cyclist.
  Since cars have a mass of some 20 times that of a bicycle and rider,
  physics tend to be on the side of the car in collisions.  I'll take
  whatever protection I can, especially if it's unobtrusive and
  inexpensive.

 There's a saying in the motorcycle community:

 'I had the right of way' is a terrible epithet for your gravestone.

 I still have the scars on my arm from a bicycle accident I had when I
 was 14. The helmet saved my life in that accident by striking the
 stone wall and shattering into a million pieces. I still wear the
 helmet that I bought to replace that one.

That explains the shrunken head.  g

Kidding, Mat.

I don't recall ever wearing a helmet on a bicycle.  I also don't ever
recall riding a bicycle in the kind of traffic Frank rides in.  I
would definitely wear one were I commuting in an urban environment.

I used to ride motorcycles off-road.  I always wore a helmet.  I've
wrapped more than one bike around a tree, tumbled down very steep
inclines I had no business riding on, and on one occasion hit a ditch
with vertical sides that was wider and deeper than the tire's
diameter.  The bike stopped, I didn't.  Fortunately, I caught a knee
on the handlebars which sent my head straight for the ground.  I cut a
little trench in the dirt with my helmet that was nearly six feet
long.  Fun times!  Strangely enough, I've never broken any bones.

I tend to only wear a helmet riding on the street when the weather is
bad, the bugs are out, or the law requires it.  It's certainly a risk,
and I've had to rely on my reflexes and the bike's acceleration to get
me out of trouble more than once.  But it's a hell of a lot more fun
without that damned thing making my head all sweaty.

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Re: Adults on bicycles

That makes as much sense as anything else in this thread...

Bob W wrote:
 thanks to the magic of HG's time machine, Orson was simultaneously his
 grandfather and his niece.
 
 --
 Cheers,
  Bob
  
 
 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On 
 Behalf Of graywolf
 Sent: 01 November 2006 12:23
 To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List
 Subject: Re: Adults on bicycles

 Oh, well, I was having one of those senior moments and was 
 thinking of 
 Orson Wells who became famous with a radio broadcast based 
 upon one of 
 HG's stories. I wonder if they were related? Yes, I know I could
 look 
 that up...

 
 

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Re: Adults on bicycles

If you get hit by a car doing 30mph a bicycle helmet is not likely to 
help you at all. Paranoia is far better protection. Thet are out to get 
you, don't let them.


Mat Maessen wrote:
 On 11/1/06, frank theriault [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Then there's always the possibility that a cyclist may be completely
 in the right, and that a car might be in the wrong and hit a cyclist.
 Since cars have a mass of some 20 times that of a bicycle and rider,
 physics tend to be on the side of the car in collisions.  I'll take
 whatever protection I can, especially if it's unobtrusive and
 inexpensive.

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RE: Adults on bicycles

That might work, Bob, if it were applied consistently in all other
areas of activity, and if the wearing of cycle helmets could be shown
conclusively to be effective. 

Neither of these conditions apply. 

For consistency all insurance and health care would have to be
withdrawn from anybody who was negligent of their health in some way,
for example by smoking, drinking, eating the wrong kind of food, not
taking enough exercise, running with knives, etc. etc.

And the final judgement is certainly not in yet on the effectiveness
of cycle helmets, so one could not in any case argue that a cyclist
without a helmet was neglecting his health in a way that could justify
(if anything can) withholding or withdrawing medical treatment or
insurance.

Furthermore, it doesn't take into account who was at fault in an
accident - something that could rarely be determined at the time of
the accident. It is also wide open to mistakes. If someone's helmet
were knocked off in an accident and not immediately visible to the
paramedics, should they withhold treatment on the grounds that the
rider was not wearing their helmet? 

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Cheers,
 Bob
 

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On 
 Behalf Of Bob Sullivan
 Sent: 01 November 2006 21:03
 To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List
 Subject: Re: Adults on bicycles
 
 I believe the law should read, If you won't wear a helmet on your
 motorcycle, no public funds or insurance monies may be used to
support
 your life or recovery after an accident.
 Bicycle riding is another matter, but still deserves the helmet.
 Regards,  Bob S.
 
 On 11/1/06, Mat Maessen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  On 11/1/06, frank theriault [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
   Then there's always the possibility that a cyclist may be 
 completely
   in the right, and that a car might be in the wrong and 
 hit a cyclist.
   Since cars have a mass of some 20 times that of a bicycle 
 and rider,
   physics tend to be on the side of the car in collisions.  
 I'll take
   whatever protection I can, especially if it's unobtrusive and
   inexpensive.
 
  There's a saying in the motorcycle community:
 
  'I had the right of way' is a terrible epithet for your 
 gravestone.
 
  I still have the scars on my arm from a bicycle accident I 
 had when I
  was 14. The helmet saved my life in that accident by striking the
  stone wall and shattering into a million pieces. I still wear the
  helmet that I bought to replace that one.
 
  -Mat
 
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Re: Adults on bicycles

2006-11-01 Thread frank theriault

On 11/1/06, graywolf [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 If you get hit by a car doing 30mph a bicycle helmet is not likely to
 help you at all. Paranoia is far better protection. Thet are out to get
 you, don't let them.

Absolutely wrong on both counts, IMHO.

If a car hits you doing 50kmh, the direct hit will likely be on the
lower body.  The head will then either whip down hit the hood or
bodywork, or hit the pavement after flying over the car.  In either
case, a helmet will likely be of great assistance.

As for paranoia, why is that mutually exclusive with wearing a helmet?
 Can't one be paranoid ~and~ wear a helmet?  Surely that's the best of
both worlds?

I, for one, have much paranoia to go around...  g

cheers,
frank
-- 
Sharpness is a bourgeois concept.  -Henri Cartier-Bresson

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RE: Adults on bicycles

The best protection for cyclists is to learn how to cycle properly in
traffic. This means behaving like the driver of a vehicle, obeying the
traffic laws, changing lanes properly, positioning yourself on the
road properly, stopping at red lights, cycling the right way up one
way streets, making proper hand signals, using lights, making sure
other drivers know what you're doing, anticipating trouble and being
just paranoid enough.

--
Cheers,
 Bob
 

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On 
 Behalf Of graywolf
 Sent: 01 November 2006 21:26
 To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List
 Subject: Re: Adults on bicycles
 
 If you get hit by a car doing 30mph a bicycle helmet is not likely
to 
 help you at all. Paranoia is far better protection. Thet are 
 out to get 
 you, don't let them.
 
 
 Mat Maessen wrote:
  On 11/1/06, frank theriault [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  Then there's always the possibility that a cyclist may be 
 completely
  in the right, and that a car might be in the wrong and hit 
 a cyclist.
  Since cars have a mass of some 20 times that of a bicycle 
 and rider,
  physics tend to be on the side of the car in collisions.  I'll
take
  whatever protection I can, especially if it's unobtrusive and
  inexpensive.
 
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Re: Adults on bicycles

2006-11-01 Thread frank theriault

On 11/1/06, Bob W [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 The best protection for cyclists is to learn how to cycle properly in
 traffic. This means behaving like the driver of a vehicle, obeying the
 traffic laws, changing lanes properly, positioning yourself on the
 road properly, stopping at red lights, cycling the right way up one
 way streets, making proper hand signals, using lights, making sure
 other drivers know what you're doing, anticipating trouble and being
 just paranoid enough.

I agree.

However, if you do all those things ~plus~ wear a helmet...

g

cheers,
frank

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Re: Adults on bicycles

2006-11-01 Thread Bob Sullivan

Bob W,
It would be a hard law, but I have no inclination to support those
motorcyclists who suffered brain injuries from not wearing helmets and
are in presistent vegitative states in need of public care for the
remainder of their lives.
We have a quarterback for last year's superbowl winning football
(gridiron) team here who bought a 200 mile per hour motorcycle and
crashed it into a little old lady's car as she left turned in front of
him in Pittsburgh.
No helmet!  What a fool.  He broke his jaw and face on the windshield
of the car, but is back on the football field.  His play is erratic
and he is now suffering from concussions on the field as some
recurrence of the head trama he sustained.
Regards,  Bob S.

On 11/1/06, Bob W [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 That might work, Bob, if it were applied consistently in all other
 areas of activity, and if the wearing of cycle helmets could be shown
 conclusively to be effective.

 Neither of these conditions apply.

 For consistency all insurance and health care would have to be
 withdrawn from anybody who was negligent of their health in some way,
 for example by smoking, drinking, eating the wrong kind of food, not
 taking enough exercise, running with knives, etc. etc.

 And the final judgement is certainly not in yet on the effectiveness
 of cycle helmets, so one could not in any case argue that a cyclist
 without a helmet was neglecting his health in a way that could justify
 (if anything can) withholding or withdrawing medical treatment or
 insurance.

 Furthermore, it doesn't take into account who was at fault in an
 accident - something that could rarely be determined at the time of
 the accident. It is also wide open to mistakes. If someone's helmet
 were knocked off in an accident and not immediately visible to the
 paramedics, should they withhold treatment on the grounds that the
 rider was not wearing their helmet?

 --
 Cheers,
  Bob


  -Original Message-
  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
  Behalf Of Bob Sullivan
  Sent: 01 November 2006 21:03
  To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List
  Subject: Re: Adults on bicycles
 
  I believe the law should read, If you won't wear a helmet on your
  motorcycle, no public funds or insurance monies may be used to
 support
  your life or recovery after an accident.
  Bicycle riding is another matter, but still deserves the helmet.
  Regards,  Bob S.
 
  On 11/1/06, Mat Maessen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
   On 11/1/06, frank theriault [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Then there's always the possibility that a cyclist may be
  completely
in the right, and that a car might be in the wrong and
  hit a cyclist.
Since cars have a mass of some 20 times that of a bicycle
  and rider,
physics tend to be on the side of the car in collisions.
  I'll take
whatever protection I can, especially if it's unobtrusive and
inexpensive.
  
   There's a saying in the motorcycle community:
  
   'I had the right of way' is a terrible epithet for your
  gravestone.
  
   I still have the scars on my arm from a bicycle accident I
  had when I
   was 14. The helmet saved my life in that accident by striking the
   stone wall and shattering into a million pieces. I still wear the
   helmet that I bought to replace that one.
  
   -Mat
  
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Re: Adults on bicycles

2006-11-01 Thread Adam Maas

frank theriault wrote:
 On 11/1/06, graywolf [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
If you get hit by a car doing 30mph a bicycle helmet is not likely to
help you at all. Paranoia is far better protection. Thet are out to get
you, don't let them.
 
 
 Absolutely wrong on both counts, IMHO.
 
 If a car hits you doing 50kmh, the direct hit will likely be on the
 lower body.  The head will then either whip down hit the hood or
 bodywork, or hit the pavement after flying over the car.  In either
 case, a helmet will likely be of great assistance.
 
 As for paranoia, why is that mutually exclusive with wearing a helmet?
  Can't one be paranoid ~and~ wear a helmet?  Surely that's the best of
 both worlds?
 
 I, for one, have much paranoia to go around...  g
 
 cheers,
 frank

Wearing a helmet IS paranoia.

-Adam
Who wears a helmet.


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Re: Adults on bicycles

2006-11-01 Thread John Francis

On Wed, Nov 01, 2006 at 09:12:22PM -, Bob W wrote:
 Your wise neurosurgeon might care to reflect on this:
 (http://www.cyclecraft.co.uk/digest/effectiveness.pdf)
 
 ... the average distance cycled per person in the UK each year is
 only 62 km42 (and in the Netherlands only 850 km43), so the average
 cyclist would expect a serious injury only once in more than 80 lifetimes.

That would only be true if the likelihood of accident was directly
proportional to distance travelled, which is a questionable assumption.

Compare this, for example, to the equally often-quoted figure that
50% of all automobile accidents occur within 1.5 miles of the home.
If this is true, and if the probability of an accident is directly
proportional to the length of the journey, then we are forced to the
conclusion that the average journey in an automobile is three miles.
This is plainly ridiculous, so one of the underlying assumptions
must be wrong.


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Re: Adults on bicycles

No, wearing a helmet is a way to avoid paranoia. Anything that makes you 
feel safer, actually increases your real world risks. Any competent 
survival instructor will tell you the safest thing to do in a real 
survival situation is to be alone, unarmed, and naked.



Adam Maas wrote:
 frank theriault wrote:
 On 11/1/06, graywolf [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 If you get hit by a car doing 30mph a bicycle helmet is not likely to
 help you at all. Paranoia is far better protection. Thet are out to get
 you, don't let them.

 Absolutely wrong on both counts, IMHO.

 If a car hits you doing 50kmh, the direct hit will likely be on the
 lower body.  The head will then either whip down hit the hood or
 bodywork, or hit the pavement after flying over the car.  In either
 case, a helmet will likely be of great assistance.

 As for paranoia, why is that mutually exclusive with wearing a helmet?
  Can't one be paranoid ~and~ wear a helmet?  Surely that's the best of
 both worlds?

 I, for one, have much paranoia to go around...  g

 cheers,
 frank
 
 Wearing a helmet IS paranoia.
 
 -Adam
 Who wears a helmet.
 
 

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Re: Adults on bicycles

2006-11-01 Thread Cotty

On 1/11/06, Bob W, discombobulated, unleashed:

The best protection for cyclists is to learn how to cycle properly in
traffic. This means behaving like the driver of a vehicle, obeying the
traffic laws, changing lanes properly, positioning yourself on the
road properly, stopping at red lights, cycling the right way up one
way streets, making proper hand signals, using lights, making sure
other drivers know what you're doing, anticipating trouble and being
just paranoid enough.

Har! You really should come cycle in Oxford

-- 


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||=|http://www.cottysnaps.com
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Re: Adults on bicycles

On Wed, 01 Nov 2006 22:55:02 -, graywolf [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 No, wearing a helmet is a way to avoid paranoia. Anything that makes you
 feel safer, actually increases your real world risks. Any competent
 survival instructor will tell you the safest thing to do in a real
 survival situation is to be alone, unarmed, and naked.

He's obviously never met a hungry polar bear.

John

 Adam Maas wrote:
 frank theriault wrote:
 On 11/1/06, graywolf [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 If you get hit by a car doing 30mph a bicycle helmet is not likely to
 help you at all. Paranoia is far better protection. Thet are out to  
 get
 you, don't let them.

 Absolutely wrong on both counts, IMHO.

 If a car hits you doing 50kmh, the direct hit will likely be on the
 lower body.  The head will then either whip down hit the hood or
 bodywork, or hit the pavement after flying over the car.  In either
 case, a helmet will likely be of great assistance.

 As for paranoia, why is that mutually exclusive with wearing a helmet?
  Can't one be paranoid ~and~ wear a helmet?  Surely that's the best of
 both worlds?

 I, for one, have much paranoia to go around...  g

 cheers,
 frank

 Wearing a helmet IS paranoia.

 -Adam
 Who wears a helmet.






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Re: Adults on bicycles

2006-11-01 Thread John Francis

On Thu, Nov 02, 2006 at 12:13:05AM -, John Forbes wrote:
 
 I believe that in the UK the average car journey isn't much more than 3  
 miles.  All those mums who drive their kids half a mile to school, and  
 then a quarter of a mile to the supermarket.  It's why they're so fat.

I'd question that.  I could believe that the median journey was under
three miles, but the average would be considerably higher - one 50-mile
trip pushes the average up considerably.



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Re: Adults on bicycles

On Wed, 01 Nov 2006 22:26:38 -, John Francis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 On Wed, Nov 01, 2006 at 09:12:22PM -, Bob W wrote:
 Your wise neurosurgeon might care to reflect on this:
 (http://www.cyclecraft.co.uk/digest/effectiveness.pdf)

 ... the average distance cycled per person in the UK each year is
 only 62 km42 (and in the Netherlands only 850 km43), so the average
 cyclist would expect a serious injury only once in more than 80  
 lifetimes.

 That would only be true if the likelihood of accident was directly
 proportional to distance travelled, which is a questionable assumption.

 Compare this, for example, to the equally often-quoted figure that
 50% of all automobile accidents occur within 1.5 miles of the home.
 If this is true, and if the probability of an accident is directly
 proportional to the length of the journey, then we are forced to the
 conclusion that the average journey in an automobile is three miles.
 This is plainly ridiculous, so one of the underlying assumptions
 must be wrong.

I believe that in the UK the average car journey isn't much more than 3  
miles.  All those mums who drive their kids half a mile to school, and  
then a quarter of a mile to the supermarket.  It's why they're so fat.

Of course, it's different in America.  Your suburbs are much larger.

John


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Re: Adults on bicycles

On Wed, 01 Nov 2006 21:49:11 -, Bob W [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 The best protection for cyclists is to learn how to cycle properly in
 traffic. This means behaving like the driver of a vehicle, obeying the
 traffic laws, changing lanes properly, positioning yourself on the
 road properly, stopping at red lights, cycling the right way up one
 way streets, making proper hand signals, using lights, making sure
 other drivers know what you're doing, anticipating trouble and being
 just paranoid enough.

 --
 Cheers,
  Bob

Amen to that.

John



 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
 Behalf Of graywolf
 Sent: 01 November 2006 21:26
 To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List
 Subject: Re: Adults on bicycles

 If you get hit by a car doing 30mph a bicycle helmet is not likely
 to
 help you at all. Paranoia is far better protection. Thet are
 out to get
 you, don't let them.


 Mat Maessen wrote:
  On 11/1/06, frank theriault [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  Then there's always the possibility that a cyclist may be
 completely
  in the right, and that a car might be in the wrong and hit
 a cyclist.
  Since cars have a mass of some 20 times that of a bicycle
 and rider,
  physics tend to be on the side of the car in collisions.  I'll
 take
  whatever protection I can, especially if it's unobtrusive and
  inexpensive.

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 PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List
 PDML@pdml.net
 http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net







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Re: Adults on bicycles

2006-11-01 Thread David Mann

On Nov 2, 2006, at 10:49 AM, Bob W wrote:

 The best protection for cyclists is to learn how to cycle properly  
 in traffic.

That helps, but you need to bear in mind that drivers have blind  
spots, are often inattentive (especially while in a hurry), and in  
some cases, as much as I hate to say it, they can be downright  
inconsiderate.  Just as cyclists sometimes are.

I haven't been bowled by a car for quite a while despite some close  
calls, but the most recent time was when I was hit from the side by a  
guy pulling out of a driveway.  He was running late and his token  
glance for traffic missed the only thing on that stretch of road.   
Sometimes shit just happens, and by then it's too late to wonder  
whether you're going to hit the concrete hard enough to matter.

In then end, a helmet won't always save someone's life: the reality  
is that in a crash there is a certain amount of impact force applied  
to the head.  The helmet can absorb a certain amount, and spreads the  
rest across that side of the skull.  With a big enough impact nothing  
will save you, and you can easily be killed by other injuries  
anyway.  IMO the helmet gives me worthwhile protection of the one  
thing that won't heal, without getting in my way while riding.

As you mentioned, prevention by careful riding is the best cure but  
my experience is that this can only reduce the danger - not eliminate  
it.  Riding offroad is an entirely different kettle of fish as the  
terrain is much more interesting, and because I ride that stuff for  
fun, fitness and challenge, crashing is much more likely and in many  
places there are pointy rocks to land on.

The dynamics of any crash are far too variable to be able to make  
predictions of the outcome, and personally I'd rather have the helmet  
than not have it because I'm slightly on the paranoid side.  If  
someone wants to take their chances without a helmet that's fine by  
me, but I'll still mutter a few opinionated words to myself :)

- Dave



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Re: Adults on bicycles

2006-11-01 Thread John Coyle

Having once, many years ago, gone over the handlebars when a front wheel 
collapsed, landing on my face and spending three days in hospital as a 
result, I would prefer to wear a helmet when riding, whether or not I was 
required to do so.
Note that, in my case, I was on a quiet country road, no other vehicle was 
involved, and I was riding at a reasonably sedate pace, correctly positioned 
on the road.  No amount of care or caution could have prevented that 
accident, as far as I can see, negating some of the arguments put forward in 
this thread.
It's really like wearing a seat-belt in a car: a helmet won't prevent every 
fatality, but it will reduce the severity of injury in a statistically 
significant number of cases.

John Coyle
Brisbane, Australia
- Original Message - 
From: David Mann [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net
Sent: Thursday, November 02, 2006 4:00 PM
Subject: Re: Adults on bicycles


 On Nov 2, 2006, at 10:49 AM, Bob W wrote:

 The best protection for cyclists is to learn how to cycle properly
 in traffic.

 That helps, but you need to bear in mind that drivers have blind
 spots, are often inattentive (especially while in a hurry), and in
 some cases, as much as I hate to say it, they can be downright
 inconsiderate.  Just as cyclists sometimes are.

 I haven't been bowled by a car for quite a while despite some close
 calls, but the most recent time was when I was hit from the side by a
 guy pulling out of a driveway.  He was running late and his token
 glance for traffic missed the only thing on that stretch of road.
 Sometimes shit just happens, and by then it's too late to wonder
 whether you're going to hit the concrete hard enough to matter.

 In then end, a helmet won't always save someone's life: the reality
 is that in a crash there is a certain amount of impact force applied
 to the head.  The helmet can absorb a certain amount, and spreads the
 rest across that side of the skull.  With a big enough impact nothing
 will save you, and you can easily be killed by other injuries
 anyway.  IMO the helmet gives me worthwhile protection of the one
 thing that won't heal, without getting in my way while riding.

 As you mentioned, prevention by careful riding is the best cure but
 my experience is that this can only reduce the danger - not eliminate
 it.  Riding offroad is an entirely different kettle of fish as the
 terrain is much more interesting, and because I ride that stuff for
 fun, fitness and challenge, crashing is much more likely and in many
 places there are pointy rocks to land on.

 The dynamics of any crash are far too variable to be able to make
 predictions of the outcome, and personally I'd rather have the helmet
 than not have it because I'm slightly on the paranoid side.  If
 someone wants to take their chances without a helmet that's fine by
 me, but I'll still mutter a few opinionated words to myself :)

 - Dave



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RE: Adults on bicycles

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On 
 Behalf Of David Mann
 
 On Nov 2, 2006, at 10:49 AM, Bob W wrote:
 
  The best protection for cyclists is to learn how to cycle properly

  in traffic.
 
[...]
 
 The dynamics of any crash are far too variable to be able to make  
 predictions of the outcome, and personally I'd rather have 
 the helmet  
 than not have it because I'm slightly on the paranoid side.  If  
 someone wants to take their chances without a helmet that's fine by

 me, but I'll still mutter a few opinionated words to myself :)
 

You make your own choices (or do you? isn't it compulsory in NZ?), and
you're entitled to your opinion, of course, but your opinion isn't
obviously supported by facts. A lot of people think it's intuitively
obvious that a helmet offers more protection than no helmet, but they
don't appear to offer any protection against the most serious types of
head injuries, and there is plenty of evidence that they increase the
likelihood of those injuries. 

The case for helmets is massively overstated, and certainly does not
offer any justification whatsoever for making it a legal requirement
to wear one.

Until earlier this year I was of the general opinion that helmets were
probably safer than no helmets, but I didn't wear one because I simply
don't like them. Some people I spoke to about it were horrified to
learn that I don't use one, and I couldn't understand the strength of
their reaction - cycling has never seemed like an unsafe activity to
me. So I started looking into the facts and the arguments for and
against, and I am simply not convinced that cycle helmets have any
worthwhile value. I suspect that most people just accept the
propaganda at face value without looking into it.

Regards,
Bob


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RE: Adults on bicycles

Hi John,

about 12 years ago I tripped unavoidably while walking along the
pavement, and hit my head and face on the concrete. I was concussed, I
broke both wrists and my front teeth went through my upper lip which
led to me having stitches in my lip, dislodged the tooth and killed
the nerves in it. Despite that I never wear a helmet while walking
along the pavement. Shit happens in all sorts of unpredictable ways.

--
Cheers,
 Bob
 

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On 
 Behalf Of John Coyle
 Sent: 02 November 2006 06:59
 To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List
 Subject: Re: Adults on bicycles
 
 Having once, many years ago, gone over the handlebars when a 
 front wheel 
 collapsed, landing on my face and spending three days in 
 hospital as a 
 result, I would prefer to wear a helmet when riding, whether 
 or not I was 
 required to do so.
 Note that, in my case, I was on a quiet country road, no 
 other vehicle was 
 involved, and I was riding at a reasonably sedate pace, 
 correctly positioned 
 on the road.  No amount of care or caution could have prevented that

 accident, as far as I can see, negating some of the arguments 
 put forward in 
 this thread.
 It's really like wearing a seat-belt in a car: a helmet won't 
 prevent every 
 fatality, but it will reduce the severity of injury in a 
 statistically 
 significant number of cases.
 
 John Coyle
 Brisbane, Australia
 - Original Message - 
 From: David Mann [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net
 Sent: Thursday, November 02, 2006 4:00 PM
 Subject: Re: Adults on bicycles
 
 
  On Nov 2, 2006, at 10:49 AM, Bob W wrote:
 
  The best protection for cyclists is to learn how to cycle
properly
  in traffic.
 
  That helps, but you need to bear in mind that drivers have blind
  spots, are often inattentive (especially while in a hurry), and in
  some cases, as much as I hate to say it, they can be downright
  inconsiderate.  Just as cyclists sometimes are.
 
  I haven't been bowled by a car for quite a while despite some
close
  calls, but the most recent time was when I was hit from the 
 side by a
  guy pulling out of a driveway.  He was running late and his token
  glance for traffic missed the only thing on that stretch of road.
  Sometimes shit just happens, and by then it's too late to wonder
  whether you're going to hit the concrete hard enough to matter.
 
  In then end, a helmet won't always save someone's life: the
reality
  is that in a crash there is a certain amount of impact force
applied
  to the head.  The helmet can absorb a certain amount, and 
 spreads the
  rest across that side of the skull.  With a big enough 
 impact nothing
  will save you, and you can easily be killed by other injuries
  anyway.  IMO the helmet gives me worthwhile protection of the one
  thing that won't heal, without getting in my way while riding.
 
  As you mentioned, prevention by careful riding is the best cure
but
  my experience is that this can only reduce the danger - not 
 eliminate
  it.  Riding offroad is an entirely different kettle of fish as the
  terrain is much more interesting, and because I ride that 
 stuff for
  fun, fitness and challenge, crashing is much more likely and in
many
  places there are pointy rocks to land on.
 
  The dynamics of any crash are far too variable to be able to make
  predictions of the outcome, and personally I'd rather have 
 the helmet
  than not have it because I'm slightly on the paranoid side.  If
  someone wants to take their chances without a helmet that's fine
by
  me, but I'll still mutter a few opinionated words to myself :)
 
  - Dave
 
 
 
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Re: Adults on bicycles

2006-11-01 Thread Don Williams

Hi John,

There must have been something seriously wrong with the bicycle for a 
front wheel to collapse. A little maintenance might have helped -- as 
well as care and attention when riding? A serious fall would do me no 
good whatsoever at 74. I tweak the spokes and check my brakes regularly. 
The route I take over the hill to the village is rocky and steep and so 
these days I stay away from rough terrain when it gets below zero. Once 
my front wheel went sideways on an icy rock and I ended up in a heap. 
The damage was not serious and I was riding again in a week. But 
bicycles, especially those like mine, a Scott mountain bike, need a lot 
of care and attention because they get pretty rough treatment. Ten years 
ago I used to change the tyres in the autumn to a pair with spikes; but 
as the years went by I began to realise that I was not as young as I 
seemed to imagine. If I were to wear a helmet in the autumn (I have one 
for summer) my skull would freeze before I got half a kilometre.

I'm just about to set off for the village by the way, there's about 50 
cm of snow on the hill. I'll go round and push the 1km to the road.

Don

John Coyle wrote:
 Having once, many years ago, gone over the handlebars when a front wheel 
 collapsed, landing on my face and spending three days in hospital as a 
 result, I would prefer to wear a helmet when riding, whether or not I was 
 required to do so.
 Note that, in my case, I was on a quiet country road, no other vehicle was 
 involved, and I was riding at a reasonably sedate pace, correctly positioned 
 on the road.  No amount of care or caution could have prevented that 
 accident, as far as I can see, negating some of the arguments put forward in 
 this thread.
 It's really like wearing a seat-belt in a car: a helmet won't prevent every 
 fatality, but it will reduce the severity of injury in a statistically 
 significant number of cases.

 John Coyle
 Brisbane, Australia
 - Original Message - 
 From: David Mann [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net
 Sent: Thursday, November 02, 2006 4:00 PM
 Subject: Re: Adults on bicycles


   
 On Nov 2, 2006, at 10:49 AM, Bob W wrote:

 
 The best protection for cyclists is to learn how to cycle properly
 in traffic.
   
 That helps, but you need to bear in mind that drivers have blind
 spots, are often inattentive (especially while in a hurry), and in
 some cases, as much as I hate to say it, they can be downright
 inconsiderate.  Just as cyclists sometimes are.

 I haven't been bowled by a car for quite a while despite some close
 calls, but the most recent time was when I was hit from the side by a
 guy pulling out of a driveway.  He was running late and his token
 glance for traffic missed the only thing on that stretch of road.
 Sometimes shit just happens, and by then it's too late to wonder
 whether you're going to hit the concrete hard enough to matter.

 In then end, a helmet won't always save someone's life: the reality
 is that in a crash there is a certain amount of impact force applied
 to the head.  The helmet can absorb a certain amount, and spreads the
 rest across that side of the skull.  With a big enough impact nothing
 will save you, and you can easily be killed by other injuries
 anyway.  IMO the helmet gives me worthwhile protection of the one
 thing that won't heal, without getting in my way while riding.

 As you mentioned, prevention by careful riding is the best cure but
 my experience is that this can only reduce the danger - not eliminate
 it.  Riding offroad is an entirely different kettle of fish as the
 terrain is much more interesting, and because I ride that stuff for
 fun, fitness and challenge, crashing is much more likely and in many
 places there are pointy rocks to land on.

 The dynamics of any crash are far too variable to be able to make
 predictions of the outcome, and personally I'd rather have the helmet
 than not have it because I'm slightly on the paranoid side.  If
 someone wants to take their chances without a helmet that's fine by
 me, but I'll still mutter a few opinionated words to myself :)

 - Dave



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Re: Adults on bicycles

On 10/31/06, Bob W [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Every time I see an adult on a bicycle, said H G Wells, I no longer
 despair for the human race

 Cast your despair to the four winds, and enjoy:
 http://todayspictures.slate.com/20061031/

Well, if the bicyclist is the main subject of the photo, I'd have
thought he could have made it a bit sharper.  Perhaps if he'd have
panned?  Or, maybe a faster shutter speed would have frozen him.  As
an added bonus, his aperture would have opened up a bit, blurring
those distracting stairs and railings a bit.

Speaking of the stairs, I think if he'd have zoomed in a bit on the
cyclist, he could have eliminated them altogether.  Then, maybe his
cameras AE would have been able to better deal with the exposure of
the cyclist, which is a bit dark, to my eye.

All in all, however, a good attempt, and I think if he works a few of
those details a bit, Mr. Bresson may become a fine photographer
someday, just like Kenny Rockwell is.

Thanks for posting this, Bob.

cheers,
framnk
-- 
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Re: Adults on bicycles

2006-10-31 Thread John Forbes

On Tue, 31 Oct 2006 13:07:12 -, frank theriault  
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 On 10/31/06, Bob W [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Every time I see an adult on a bicycle, said H G Wells, I no longer
 despair for the human race

 Cast your despair to the four winds, and enjoy:
 http://todayspictures.slate.com/20061031/

 Well, if the bicyclist is the main subject of the photo, I'd have
 thought he could have made it a bit sharper.  Perhaps if he'd have
 panned?  Or, maybe a faster shutter speed would have frozen him.  As
 an added bonus, his aperture would have opened up a bit, blurring
 those distracting stairs and railings a bit.

 Speaking of the stairs, I think if he'd have zoomed in a bit on the
 cyclist, he could have eliminated them altogether.  Then, maybe his
 cameras AE would have been able to better deal with the exposure of
 the cyclist, which is a bit dark, to my eye.

 All in all, however, a good attempt, and I think if he works a few of
 those details a bit, Mr. Bresson may become a fine photographer
 someday, just like Kenny Rockwell is.

You're absolutely right, Frank, but I don't think this chap had AE and  
zoom lenses.  It only goes to show that you need decent equipment if you  
want to take a good photograph.

John

 Thanks for posting this, Bob.

 cheers,
 framnk



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Re: Adults on bicycles

2006-10-31 Thread mike wilson

 From: frank theriault [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Date: 2006/10/31 Tue PM 01:07:12 GMT
 To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net
 Subject: Re: Adults on bicycles

 On 10/31/06, Bob W [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  Every time I see an adult on a bicycle, said H G Wells, I no longer
  despair for the human race

  Cast your despair to the four winds, and enjoy:
  http://todayspictures.slate.com/20061031/

 Well, if the bicyclist is the main subject of the photo, I'd have
 thought he could have made it a bit sharper.  Perhaps if he'd have
 panned?  Or, maybe a faster shutter speed would have frozen him.  As
 an added bonus, his aperture would have opened up a bit, blurring
 those distracting stairs and railings a bit.

 Speaking of the stairs, I think if he'd have zoomed in a bit on the
 cyclist, he could have eliminated them altogether.  Then, maybe his
 cameras AE would have been able to better deal with the exposure of
 the cyclist, which is a bit dark, to my eye.

 All in all, however, a good attempt, and I think if he works a few of
 those details a bit, Mr. Bresson may become a fine photographer
 someday, just like Kenny Rockwell is.

 Thanks for posting this, Bob.

Seconded.  I like the boys discussing the Tour on their racers.  Today, they 
would probably be sitting in a darkened room playing Lance's Tour on their 
Xbox/Playstation/PC.

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Re: Adults on bicycles

2006-10-31 Thread Bertil Holmberg

The up to date version should be:

Every time I see and adult cyclist wearing a helmet, I no longer  
despair for the human race

Take care, Bertil

31 okt 2006 kl. 09:39 skrev [EMAIL PROTECTED]:

 Every time I see an adult on a bicycle, said H G Wells, I no longer
 despair for the human race


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Re: Adults on bicycles

On 10/31/06, John Forbes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


 You're absolutely right, Frank, but I don't think this chap had AE and
 zoom lenses.  It only goes to show that you need decent equipment if you
 want to take a good photograph.


We must remember:  People don't take photographs, cameras do...

cheers,
frank

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RE: Adults on bicycles

2006-10-31 Thread Bob W

I never wear a bicycle helmet. I don't even one, and I cycle everyday
(2 days at weekends).

--
Cheers,
 Bob
 

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On 
 Behalf Of Bertil Holmberg
 Sent: 31 October 2006 16:30
 To: pdml@pdml.net
 Subject: Re: Adults on bicycles
 
 The up to date version should be:
 
 Every time I see and adult cyclist wearing a helmet, I no longer  
 despair for the human race
 
 Take care, Bertil
 
 31 okt 2006 kl. 09:39 skrev [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
 
  Every time I see an adult on a bicycle, said H G Wells, 
 I no longer
  despair for the human race
 
 
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 PDML@pdml.net
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Re: Adults on bicycles

On 10/31/06, Bob W [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 I never wear a bicycle helmet. I don't even one, and I cycle everyday
 (2 days at weekends).

Obviously...

-frank

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Re: Adults on bicycles

2006-10-31 Thread Mark Roberts

frank theriault wrote:

On 10/31/06, Bob W [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 I never wear a bicycle helmet. I don't even one, and I cycle everyday
 (2 days at weekends).

Obviously...

Could you clarify this a bit, Frank. Do you mean you think it's obvious 
he never wears a helmet? (Inquiring minds and all that...)


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Re: Adults on bicycles

2006-10-31 Thread John Francis

On Tue, Oct 31, 2006 at 04:58:17PM -0500, Mark Roberts wrote:
 frank theriault wrote:
 
 On 10/31/06, Bob W [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  I never wear a bicycle helmet. I don't even one, and I cycle everyday
  (2 days at weekends).
 
 Obviously...
 
 Could you clarify this a bit, Frank. Do you mean you think it's obvious 
 he never wears a helmet? (Inquiring minds and all that...)

My guess is that Frank's comment is aimed at the parenthetical phrase.

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Re: Adults on bicycles

On 10/31/06, Mark Roberts [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


 Could you clarify this a bit, Frank. Do you mean you think it's obvious
 he never wears a helmet? (Inquiring minds and all that...)

I have no idea what I meant.  I rarely do.

cheers,
frank


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Re: Adults on bicycles