subject:"Re\: \[NF\} FoxPro and .NET better than Linux\?"

  That really isn't the problem at all.  The old code works, but could you
  change a looping scan to a LINQ statement?  The bar is getting raised all
  the time and it's hard to stay with it.

 Why does the saying if it ain't broke, ... come to mind?  Sure, I
 could rip all the walls off of my house to use the latest/greatest
 technology in siding, but would it really be worth it?  Likewise with
 rewriting a working application in DotNyet!

Just because something isn't broken, doesn't mean it can't be done
better. Innovation in technology shouldn't be held back by 'if it
ain't broke' mentality-- 'if it ain't broke' mentality is more an
argument for business ROI evaluations.


-- 
Derek


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Re: [NF} FoxPro and .NET better than Linux?

  Is that comment coming from a php flip boy?

 That's a new title. I've been called worse.

 Microsoft set Windows development back ten years with DotNet. I had to
 do something while I was waiting for the dust to clear. I've been
 having a blast. I like Python more than PHP, but PHP is paying the
 bills right now.

Please, Ted-- tell us what Windows development SHOULD be right now.
How did Dotnet set it 'back'?

Have you looked at .NET? For once, access to core libraries are
somewhat standardized versus the mish-mash of win32 API's that we have
dealt with for years.

Please, tell me where the setback is and where we SHOULD be going
today(in 'Windows development' as you put it)?


-- 
Derek


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Re: [NF} FoxPro and .NET better than Linux?

2007-06-07 Thread Ed Leafe

On Jun 7, 2007, at 12:18 PM, Derek Kalweit wrote:

 Just because something isn't broken, doesn't mean it can't be done
 better. Innovation in technology shouldn't be held back by 'if it
 ain't broke' mentality-- 'if it ain't broke' mentality is more an
 argument for business ROI evaluations.

Isn't that exactly what is being discussed? Apps that are being re- 
written simply because Microsoft announces a new way to develop them,  
without regard for ROI?

While I wouldn't recommend that clients do new development in VFP, I  
sure as hell wouldn't recommend dumping a VFP app that is doing what  
they need without a strong business justification.

-- Ed Leafe
-- http://leafe.com
-- http://dabodev.com




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Re: [NF} FoxPro and .NET better than Linux?

 I'll bet that whatever money was
 spent on it, they could have saved money having it written in VFP
 (assuming it could have been) since it required much much more
 development time to do something in DotNot 1.0 that you could have done
 much much easier in VFP.  g

Who says it would take more time in .NET 1.0 than VFP? I guarantee for
many developers, it would be FAR faster to do most things in .NET
versus VFP-- learning VFP code syntax, idealogy, and then the years of
learning how to work around the 'quirks'(bugs) in VFP to keep it from
crashing? Give me .NET for new projects, please.


-- 
Derek


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RE: [NF} FoxPro and .NET better than Linux?

2007-06-07 Thread David Crooks

On Wednesday, June 06, 2007 10:19 PM Ted Roche wrote:

snipped
Microsoft set Windows development back ten years with DotNet. I had to
do something while I was 
waiting for the dust to clear. I've been having a blast. I like Python
more than PHP, but PHP is. paying the bills right now.

I don't agree that .NET set Windows development back 10 years. Many
people jumped from FoxPro when 3.0 came out waiting for the dust to
clear.  I guess people don't remember that it was Dr. Dave Fulton when
he went to MSFT was designing an UI development tool that would allow
the programmer to program in what ever language he or she wanted.  Of
course, FoxPro was supposed to be one of the languages.  

David L. Crooks



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Re: [NF} FoxPro and .NET better than Linux?

  Just because something isn't broken, doesn't mean it can't be done
  better. Innovation in technology shouldn't be held back by 'if it
  ain't broke' mentality-- 'if it ain't broke' mentality is more an
  argument for business ROI evaluations.

 Isn't that exactly what is being discussed? Apps that are being re-
 written simply because Microsoft announces a new way to develop them,
 without regard for ROI?

My interpretation is that the line is being considerably blurred by
some on this list at times with the technology itself under attack
instead of the push to rewrite itself...


-- 
Derek


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Re: [NF} FoxPro and .NET better than Linux?

2007-06-07 Thread Bill Anderson

MB Software Solutions wrote:
 One of the all-time great quotes from a MSFT marketer at LA Fox re: .NET 
 1.0 -- Companies are throwing out their mission critical applications 
 sight unseen to rewrite them in the beta version of .NET [1.0].
   
 
 That's absolutely absurd!  Talk about fools drinking the kool-aid!  What 
 a freakin' idiot.  He was paid to say crap like that...regardless of how 
 ludicrous it was.
But you see, it wasn't a lie.

Companies (Revlon/Dell may have been the only two but that's good 
enough for the plural designation) are throwing out their mission 
critical applications sight unseen (especially if Microsoft Consulting 
came to them and said something along the lines of We'll write and 
install a brand new application for you for free if you'll allow us to 
promote it) to rewrite them in the beta version of .NET [1.0].

MSFT didn't lie per se, but to intentionally deceive -- (another quote 
from the same individual) -- That's just business.

Bill



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Re: [NF} FoxPro and .NET better than Linux?

2007-06-07 Thread Ted Roche

On 6/7/07, Derek Kalweit [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Microsoft set Windows development back ten years with DotNet.

 Please, Ted-- tell us what Windows development SHOULD be right now.
 How did Dotnet set it 'back'?

Derek:

You really do need a good answer to this question, but I'm under
deadline on a couple of projects, and might not get back to this right
away, but here's a nutshell answer you can take potshots at:

Windows development should have plowed ahead with VB 7, 8, and 9.
ASP.NET should have been released as ASP2 to give web developers a
chance to keep up with the other web development stuff while MSFT
reprised the learning curve of developing .NET into a stable, mature
and powerful framework. It was enormous gaul on the part of MS to cut
off the majority of its (customer's) toolkit and replace it with a 1.0
product. It showed a lack of appreciation for what real developers
(and by that I mean you and I) do with MS' tools in the field. It
showed a lack of respect and understanding for the crafts of
programming and application development.

MS should have sucked it up and run .NET in parallel to its offerings,
like Sprite and Coke, and learned from its customers what the adoption
curve should be.

 Have you looked at .NET?

Nearly five years ago, a few of us hung out in Redmond and discussed
it in some depth:

http://www.tedroche.com/images/RedmondJuly2002.jpg

For once, access to core libraries are
 somewhat standardized versus the mish-mash of win32 API's that we have
 dealt with for years.

Unquestionably, great goals, good design, and fair implementation for
a first, second and third try, so far. They're getting towards a great
product.

 Please, tell me where the setback is and

The setback is that huge amounts of time and effort have been spent on
learning MS' beta. Now that the production version is within sight,
the slideshows that Microsoft subjected us to in DevCon Miami (in
2000!) are pretty irrelevant.

 where we SHOULD be going
 today(in 'Windows development' as you put it)?

That's the question that started this thread, isn't it? Where do you
want to go today? (tm)

-- 
Ted mmm. warm flames. Roche
Ted Roche  Associates, LLC
http://www.tedroche.com


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Re: [NF} FoxPro and .NET better than Linux?

David Crooks wrote:
 snipped
   
 Microsoft set Windows development back ten years with DotNet. I had to do 
 something while I was 
 
 waiting for the dust to clear. I've been having a blast. I like Python
 
 more than PHP, but PHP is. paying the bills right now.

 I don't agree that .NET set Windows development back 10 years. 

He was trying to stir up the dust, he said.   g

-- 
Michael J. Babcock, MCP
MB Software Solutions, LLC
http://mbsoftwaresolutions.com
http://fabmate.com
Work smarter, not harder, with MBSS custom software solutions!



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Re: [NF} FoxPro and .NET better than Linux?

Bill Anderson wrote:
 snipped
 MSFT didn't lie per se, but to intentionally deceive -- (another quote 
 from the same individual) -- That's just business.
   

I thought that's the definition of marketing.   What's that 
line---lies, lies, and damned lies.     g

-- 
Michael J. Babcock, MCP
MB Software Solutions, LLC
http://mbsoftwaresolutions.com
http://fabmate.com
Work smarter, not harder, with MBSS custom software solutions!



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RE: [NF} FoxPro and .NET better than Linux?

2007-06-07 Thread David Crooks

On Thursday, June 07, 2007 3:31 PM Michael wrote:

He was trying to stir up the dust, he said.   g

Got it. He needs a dust pan. :-)

I can't wait until PHP is a legacy language...

David L. Crooks



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Re: [NF} FoxPro and .NET better than Linux?

Ted Roche wrote:
 Have you looked at .NET?
 

 Nearly five years ago, a few of us hung out in Redmond and discussed
 it in some depth:

 http://www.tedroche.com/images/RedmondJuly2002.jpg
   
on the overhead:  Visual Basic Strategic Design Review ?!??   huh?



-- 
Michael J. Babcock, MCP
MB Software Solutions, LLC
http://mbsoftwaresolutions.com
http://fabmate.com
Work smarter, not harder, with MBSS custom software solutions!



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Re: [NF} FoxPro and .NET better than Linux?

David Crooks wrote:
 On Thursday, June 07, 2007 3:31 PM Michael wrote:

   
 He was trying to stir up the dust, he said.   g
 

 Got it. He needs a dust pan. :-)

 I can't wait until PHP is a legacy language...
   

But sometimes that's in vogue:  look at AJAX!  I thought legacy code 
was anything you wrote yesterday?  g  That's the big nuttiness in this 
freakin' business that makes many want to bail!

-- 
Michael J. Babcock, MCP
MB Software Solutions, LLC
http://mbsoftwaresolutions.com
http://fabmate.com
Work smarter, not harder, with MBSS custom software solutions!



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Re: [NF} FoxPro and .NET better than Linux?

2007-06-07 Thread Ted Roche

On 6/7/07, MB Software Solutions [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 on the overhead:  Visual Basic Strategic Design Review ?!??   huh?

Wonder what that's about?

I can neither confirm not deny that I may or maybe not be, or may have
been at the time, under an NDA. I just helped set up the picture g.
You'll have to connect the dots yourself.

-- 
Ted It's a conspiracy, I tell you! Roche
Ted Roche  Associates, LLC
http://www.tedroche.com


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Re: [NF} FoxPro and .NET better than Linux?

2007-06-07 Thread Ted Roche

On 6/7/07, David Crooks [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 I can't wait until PHP is a legacy language...

Maybe the PHP Corporation will declare that they're no longer going to
support it.

-- 
Ted Roche
Ted Roche  Associates, LLC
http://www.tedroche.com


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Re: [NF} FoxPro and .NET better than Linux?

 You really do need a good answer to this question, but I'm under
 deadline on a couple of projects, and might not get back to this right
 away, but here's a nutshell answer you can take potshots at:

Thanks for responding.


 Windows development should have plowed ahead with VB 7, 8, and 9.
 ASP.NET should have been released as ASP2 to give web developers a
 chance to keep up with the other web development stuff while MSFT
 reprised the learning curve of developing .NET into a stable, mature
 and powerful framework.

What would be in VB7,8,9 and what would ASP2 do? VB6 and ASP code
still work today and many important applications are written with
them. Both VB6 and ASP/VBScript have major fundamental problems, and
simply adding on more and more onto this would have made it even more
of a mess. Just look at VFP9's property sheet..


 It was enormous gaul on the part of MS to cut
 off the majority of its (customer's) toolkit and replace it with a 1.0
 product. It showed a lack of appreciation for what real developers
 (and by that I mean you and I) do with MS' tools in the field. It
 showed a lack of respect and understanding for the crafts of
 programming and application development.

 MS should have sucked it up and run .NET in parallel to its offerings,
 like Sprite and Coke, and learned from its customers what the adoption
 curve should be.

No one was forced to move to .NET. .NET is at 3.0 now-- 5+ years
later. VFP is still supported, and I believe ASP and VB6 still
are(even if they're not, they're extensively used even today). I
personally see their strategy as exactly what you discuss-- running in
parallel. They simply didn't dedicated considerable new-development
resources/releases to their old legacy products/technologies(except
VFP)-- they DID, however, make sure they still worked...


  Have you looked at .NET?

 Nearly five years ago, a few of us hung out in Redmond and discussed
 it in some depth:

 http://www.tedroche.com/images/RedmondJuly2002.jpg

Excellent. They released 2.0 and 3.0 since


 For once, access to core libraries are
  somewhat standardized versus the mish-mash of win32 API's that we have
  dealt with for years.

 Unquestionably, great goals, good design, and fair implementation for
 a first, second and third try, so far. They're getting towards a great
 product.

'try'? That implies that they started fresh each time... Rather, .NET
2.0 enhanced 1.0, and .NET 3.0 enhanced 2.0. Yes, some small misc.
things got dropped with new versions. Development works this way--
1.0, 2.0, 3.0. Releasing a new version isn't a failure, as first,
second, and third try implies...


  Please, tell me where the setback is and

 The setback is that huge amounts of time and effort have been spent on
 learning MS' beta. Now that the production version is within sight,
 the slideshows that Microsoft subjected us to in DevCon Miami (in
 2000!) are pretty irrelevant.

Much of what people learned for .NET 1.0 is still relevent with 2.0
and 3.0 today. Basics and specifics. Sure, more has been added, and a
small portion taken away, but the general structures are still there--
with some new ones added on, such as Master Pages for asp.net in 2.0
and LINQ in 3.0.


  where we SHOULD be going
  today(in 'Windows development' as you put it)?

 That's the question that started this thread, isn't it? Where do you
 want to go today? (tm)

I want to go to a place where I don't have to worry about bills--
where I have enough money that I work only when/because I want to, and
not because I have to. I see the path to that is far more likely going
towards Microsoft versus Linux. If I cared purely about living free
and making the world a better place(yet working 'till 80 'cause I have
to), I might choose Linux...


-- 
Derek


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Re: [NF} FoxPro and .NET better than Linux?

2007-06-07 Thread Vince Teachout

Ted Roche wrote:

It was enormous gaul on the part of MS to cut
 off the majority of its (customer's) toolkit

I'm not really following this thread at all, I was just surprised to see 
  Julius Caesar working for Microsoft.  :-P

Ok why I don't just go sit in the corner and just shut the hell 
right up, eh?

-- 
Vince Teachout
Caracal Software
www.caracal.net
518-733-9411


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Re: [NF} FoxPro and .NET better than Linux?

2007-06-07 Thread Richard Kaye

I wanted to say something, Vince. So good of you to step in vbg

Vince Teachout wrote:
 Ted Roche wrote:

   
 It was enormous gaul on the part of MS to cut
 off the majority of its (customer's) toolkit
 

 I'm not really following this thread at all, I was just surprised to see 
   Julius Caesar working for Microsoft.  :-P

 Ok why I don't just go sit in the corner and just shut the hell 
 right up, eh?

   

-- 
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Voice: 617.219.1038
Fax:  617.219.1001

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Re: [NF} FoxPro and .NET better than Linux?

2007-06-07 Thread Chet Gardiner

By this logic, shouldn't car manufacturers move the steering wheel to 
the rear of the car and the pedals to the passenger side requiring twice 
as many folks to drive the thing down the road? 

That would be new and exciting!

And analogous to moving/changing the application development methodology 
just to get more cash flow coming in...

Derek Kalweit wrote:
 I'll bet that whatever money was
 spent on it, they could have saved money having it written in VFP
 (assuming it could have been) since it required much much more
 development time to do something in DotNot 1.0 that you could have done
 much much easier in VFP.  g
 

 Who says it would take more time in .NET 1.0 than VFP? I guarantee for
 many developers, it would be FAR faster to do most things in .NET
 versus VFP-- learning VFP code syntax, idealogy, and then the years of
 learning how to work around the 'quirks'(bugs) in VFP to keep it from
 crashing? Give me .NET for new projects, please.


   


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Re: [NF} FoxPro and .NET better than Linux?

2007-06-07 Thread Leland F. Jackson, CPA

After naming SUN Studio Creator 2 as a good example of a linux 
programming IDE that ran on Linux, I decided to install it on my FC6 
desktop computer, since I hadn't looked at it since I evaluated it on 
FC4.  I had problems installing Creator 2 on FC6, but after doing some 
additional reading, I learned that Creator 2 had been ported to the 
Netbeans ide.  I downloaded the Netbeans 5.5.1 package, and installed it 
on my desktop computer.  That gave me the Netbeans ide, Apache Tomcat 
Web Server, and SUN's application server.

Then I installed netbeans-visualweb-5_5_1-linux.bin.  This  gave me the 
visual web drag and drop features of Creator 2 as a Netbeans ide 
plugin.  Everything installed on my FC6 via installshield, and 
everything seems to be working great.  With these tools I can build a 
web site without the need of writing a single line of java code.  
Netbeans visual web plugin allows me to create web pages by dragging and 
dropping objects onto the designer frame and then filling out a property 
sheets on the objects.  This is also a great way to lean java and jsp 
programming.

Web 2.0 technologies have been great for web developers, and a great 
migration of the workload from personal computers onto the Web servers 
is taking place, as I am seeing  more and more server-based applications 
vs. software that is installed on PCs.

Hosted applications are gaining popularity.  They are versatile, 
cost-effective and hassle-free.  Customers do not need IT staff to 
handle such application; a host takes care of tech support.  More and 
more businesses are adjusting there model to adopt open-source and 
server-based solutions, providing clients with the means to run their 
business virtually form anywhere in the world.  As solution providers we 
can develop web based applications and then have them hosted by IP 
professionals.  For example, a customer  who had an on-the-road sales 
force, needed to replace a practice of manually sending printouts of 
monthly reports to hundreds of people with a better solution.  The 
solution was to provide the client with a secure, Web-based single point 
of information, where each team member had access to business data at 
any time, form anywhere.

Also, business and application developers are moving toward software 
that is OS agnostic.  Software like Netbeans with its visual designer 
work well here, as the java jre, sdk, and netbeans ide with its visual 
web plugin are available across all the major OS(s) including Solaris, 
Linux, UNIX, and Windows.  Just something to think about.

Some of my thoughts came from an article in the June 4, 2007 issue of 
CRN Perspectives titled Embracing Web 2.0.

Regards,

LelandJ


Derek Kalweit wrote:
 That really isn't the problem at all.  The old code works, but could you
 change a looping scan to a LINQ statement?  The bar is getting raised all
 the time and it's hard to stay with it.
   

   
 Why does the saying if it ain't broke, ... come to mind?  Sure, I
 could rip all the walls off of my house to use the latest/greatest
 technology in siding, but would it really be worth it?  Likewise with
 rewriting a working application in DotNyet!
 

 Just because something isn't broken, doesn't mean it can't be done
 better. Innovation in technology shouldn't be held back by 'if it
 ain't broke' mentality-- 'if it ain't broke' mentality is more an
 argument for business ROI evaluations.


   



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Re: [NF} FoxPro and .NET better than Linux?

2007-06-07 Thread Kenneth Kixmoeller/fh


On Jun 7, 2007, at 3:40 PM, Vince Teachout wrote:


 It was enormous gaul on the part of MS to cut
 off the majority of its (customer's) toolkit

 I'm not really following this thread at all, I was just surprised  
 to see
   Julius Caesar working for Microsoft.  :-P

Oops, you meant Napoleon. But he wasn't big, at least in physical  
stature. In breaking news, Charles de Gaulle is still dead. Details  
at 11. 
  


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Re: [NF} FoxPro and .NET better than Linux?

2007-06-07 Thread Vince Teachout

Kenneth Kixmoeller/fh wrote:
 On Jun 7, 2007, at 3:40 PM, Vince Teachout wrote:
 
 It was enormous gaul on the part of MS to cut
 off the majority of its (customer's) toolkit
 I'm not really following this thread at all, I was just surprised  
 to see
   Julius Caesar working for Microsoft.  :-P
 
 Oops, you meant Napoleon. But he wasn't big, at least in physical  
 stature. In breaking news, Charles de Gaulle is still dead. Details  
 at 11. 

No, both are correct - I was referring to old Gaul, as in:

Gaul (gôl)
Formerly Gal·li·a (gal?e-ä)

An ancient region of western Europe south and west of the Rhine River, 
west of the Alps, and north of the Pyrenees, corresponding roughly to 
modern-day France and Belgium. The Romans extended the designation to 
include northern Italy, particularly after Julius Caesar's conquest of 
the area in the Gallic Wars (58-51 B.C.).

Excerpted from The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, 
Third Edition Copyright © 1992 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Electronic 
version licensed from Lernout  Hauspie Speech Products N.V., further 
reproduction and distribution restricted in accordance with the 
Copyright Law of the United States. All rights reserved.


If you made a Napoleon joke, some might think it small of you.



-- 
Vince Teachout
Caracal Software
www.caracal.net
518-733-9411


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RE: [NF} FoxPro and .NET better than Linux?

2007-06-07 Thread Bill Arnold


I think Linux is the best bet for the long run, with one assumption:
that IBM endows it with it's SMP maintenance system. Then language/tool
vendors can work within that paradigm to distribute and maintain their
products without our having to deal with versioning, dependencies and
other maintenance/management headaches. 

I think Linux is risky today because we build things for our customers,
which is fine, but then down the road when any one of the unpredictable
happen, they demand that we solve the problem, which we may not be able
to do without considerable time and effort. 

But then I'm also betting that, sometime before our 10 years is up,
we'll have something on the Linux side to port (as in native language
conversion) our VFP applications to.


Bill




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Re: [NF} FoxPro and .NET better than Linux?

2007-06-07 Thread Leland F. Jackson, CPA

IBM in the past had used red hat Linux for its smaller clients and SUSE 
Linux to run with the big dogs.  IBM upgraded SUSE Linux security to run 
on its mainframe computers (eg the 390 I think).

Now that Microsoft has signed an agreement with Novell, who own SUSE 
Linux, to partner in allowing Microsoft to offer SUSE Linux to its 
clients and to improve interoperability between Linux and Window, IBM is 
now going with a stronger relationship with Red Hat, and will use Red 
Hat on its mainframe computers.

Both Red Hat and SUSE Linux are commercial product that are offered 
under a license that includes support, but other non-commercial version 
of Linux do a heck of a job of keeping their products patch and up to date.

Most ides and languages running on Linux are OS agnostic.  Going with an 
ide and language that is OS agnostic has its advantages.  Many open 
source languages are both OS agnostic and free.  This avoid the 
Microsoft or other vendor lock-in that could cost big buck to the 
clueless over the long haul.

Anyway, its a great time to be involved with developing web based 
applications using tools like the Komodo ide, perl, php, python, ruby, 
and java languages, the eclipse ide, the netbeans ide, etc.  Once an 
application is developed, you offer it to your client base or otherwise 
market it,  and then place it on computers that are hosted by IP (eg 
Internet Provider).  The hosting providers receive income from providing 
hosting services and doing all the IP stuff like keeping the hardware 
running and applications backed up,  and the application developer 
receive income from licensing the software, installing it on the hosting 
provider, and maintaining/updating the application.

Regards,

LelandJ



Bill Arnold wrote:
 I think Linux is the best bet for the long run, with one assumption:
 that IBM endows it with it's SMP maintenance system. Then language/tool
 vendors can work within that paradigm to distribute and maintain their
 products without our having to deal with versioning, dependencies and
 other maintenance/management headaches. 

 I think Linux is risky today because we build things for our customers,
 which is fine, but then down the road when any one of the unpredictable
 happen, they demand that we solve the problem, which we may not be able
 to do without considerable time and effort. 

 But then I'm also betting that, sometime before our 10 years is up,
 we'll have something on the Linux side to port (as in native language
 conversion) our VFP applications to.


 Bill




[excessive quoting removed by server]

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Re: [NF} FoxPro and .NET better than Linux?

2007-06-07 Thread Leland F. Jackson, CPA

Whoops, I didn't include the below link in the previous post:

http://www.novell.com/news/press/microsoft_and_novell_announce_broad_collaboration_on_windows_and_linux_interoperability_and_support

http://tinyurl.com/3xp67r

Regards,

LelandJ

Leland F. Jackson, CPA wrote:
IBM in the past had used red hat Linux for its smaller clients and SUSE
Linux to run with the big dogs. IBM upgraded SUSE Linux security to run
on its mainframe computers (eg the 390 I think).

Now that Microsoft has signed an agreement with Novell, who own SUSE
Linux, to partner in allowing Microsoft to offer SUSE Linux to its
clients and to improve interoperability between Linux and Window, IBM is
now going with a stronger relationship with Red Hat, and will use Red
Hat on its mainframe computers.

Both Red Hat and SUSE Linux are commercial product that are offered
under a license that includes support, but other non-commercial version
of Linux do a heck of a job of keeping their products patch and up to date.

Most ides and languages running on Linux are OS agnostic. Going with an
ide and language that is OS agnostic has its advantages. Many open
source languages are both OS agnostic and free. This avoid the
Microsoft or other vendor lock-in that could cost big buck to the
clueless over the long haul.

Anyway, its a great time to be involved with developing web based
applications using tools like the Komodo ide, perl, php, python, ruby,
and java languages, the eclipse ide, the netbeans ide, etc. Once an
application is developed, you offer it to your client base or otherwise
market it, and then place it on computers that are hosted by IP (eg
Internet Provider). The hosting providers receive income from providing
hosting services and doing all the IP stuff like keeping the hardware
running and applications backed up, and the application developer
receive income from licensing the software, installing it on the hosting
provider, and maintaining/updating the application.

Regards,

LelandJ

Bill Arnold wrote:

I think Linux is the best bet for the long run, with one assumption:
that IBM endows it with it's SMP maintenance system. Then language/tool
vendors can work within that paradigm to distribute and maintain their
products without our having to deal with versioning, dependencies and
other maintenance/management headaches.

I think Linux is risky today because we build things for our customers,
which is fine, but then down the road when any one of the unpredictable
happen, they demand that we solve the problem, which we may not be able
to do without considerable time and effort.

But then I'm also betting that, sometime before our 10 years is up,
we'll have something on the Linux side to port (as in native language
conversion) our VFP applications to.

Bill

[excessive quoting removed by server]

Re: [NF} FoxPro and .NET better than Linux?

2007-06-07 Thread Kenneth Kixmoeller/fh


On Jun 7, 2007, at 8:36 PM, Vince Teachout wrote:

 If you made a Napoleon joke, some might think it small of you.

groan

Thanks for the enlightenment on gall, Gaul, Gallia, by golly!


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RE: [NF} FoxPro and .NET better than Linux?

2007-06-07 Thread Bill Arnold


Leland, I can't, quickly anyway, seem to locate an overview, but one of
IBM's redbooks describes SMP with a few words: 

Chapter 3 describes OS/390 SMP/E which is a tool designed to manage the
installation of software products on your OS/390 system and to track the
modifications you make to those products.
http://www.redbooks.ibm.com/abstracts/SG245653.html?Open

Substitute Linux for OS/390 in the above, is what I'm saying. Not
impossible. IBM has done this with z/OS
http://www-306.ibm.com/common/ssi/rep_ca/7/897/ENUS201-257/index.html

Here's a book that describes the rules for packaging products and
maintenance for MVS using SMP
http://publibz.boulder.ibm.com/epubs/pdf/gim25x00.pdf

That that I'm saying anyone should read these specific rules, because
it's for a specific OS, but to point out that such a reference does
exist and that one can be made for Linux as well. 

This approach to product packaging, delivery, installation and
maintenance has served IBM very well over the years, and it's something
that can work to our great advantage (unless we like dealing with
solving compatibility problems) if it works out this way. 

And the whole thing can be automated, fed over the net (as the 2nd
reference above talks about, for z/OS).


Bill

 
 IBM in the past had used red hat Linux for its smaller 
 clients and SUSE 
 Linux to run with the big dogs.  IBM upgraded SUSE Linux 
 security to run 
 on its mainframe computers (eg the 390 I think).
 
 Now that Microsoft has signed an agreement with Novell, who own SUSE 
 Linux, to partner in allowing Microsoft to offer SUSE Linux to its 
 clients and to improve interoperability between Linux and 
 Window, IBM is 
 now going with a stronger relationship with Red Hat, and will use Red 
 Hat on its mainframe computers.
 
 Both Red Hat and SUSE Linux are commercial product that are offered 
 under a license that includes support, but other 
 non-commercial version 
 of Linux do a heck of a job of keeping their products patch 
 and up to date.
 
 Most ides and languages running on Linux are OS agnostic.  
 Going with an 
 ide and language that is OS agnostic has its advantages.  Many open 
 source languages are both OS agnostic and free.  This avoid the 
 Microsoft or other vendor lock-in that could cost big buck to the 
 clueless over the long haul.
 
 Anyway, its a great time to be involved with developing web based 
 applications using tools like the Komodo ide, perl, php, 
 python, ruby, 
 and java languages, the eclipse ide, the netbeans ide, etc.  Once an 
 application is developed, you offer it to your client base or 
 otherwise 
 market it,  and then place it on computers that are hosted by IP (eg 
 Internet Provider).  The hosting providers receive income 
 from providing 
 hosting services and doing all the IP stuff like keeping the hardware 
 running and applications backed up,  and the application developer 
 receive income from licensing the software, installing it on 
 the hosting 
 provider, and maintaining/updating the application.
 
 Regards,
 
 LelandJ



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RE: [NF} FoxPro and .NET better than Linux?

2007-06-06 Thread Andy Davies

Stephen Russell [predictably g] said:
 .NET is overwhelming in it's capabilities today and they are going to
roll out a more feature rich version later this year or early next.

exactly what was said about .net v1, and v2 was a re-learning exercise.
There is no (ongoing) money in selling a stable platform!

Andrew Davies  MBCS CITP
  - AndyD    8-)#



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RE: [NF} FoxPro and .NET better than Linux?

Ted Roche  wrote:
 On 6/5/07, Stephen the Cook [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 From the school of Denial  ;-
 
 Mmmm... getting warmer!
 
 .NET is overwhelming in it's capabilities today and they are going to
 roll out a more feature rich version later this year or early next.
 
 Yeah, yeah! Just wait til next year!

This year has Expression Blend adding yet another layer to using XAML within
.NET.  /Who has time to get good at this when it improves way to quick.

 
 God I love those clients!
 
 Spoken like a true data ho.

Thank you.

Stephen Russell
DBA / .Net Developer

Memphis TN 38115
901.246-0159

A good way to judge people is by observing how they treat those who
can do them absolutely no good. ---Unknown

http://spaces.msn.com/members/srussell/

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Re: [NF} FoxPro and .NET better than Linux?

2007-06-06 Thread Ed Leafe

On Jun 6, 2007, at 7:29 AM, Stephen the Cook wrote:

 Who has time to get good at this when it improves way to quick.

+1 New Microsoft Motto!

-- Ed Leafe
-- http://leafe.com
-- http://dabodev.com




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Re: [NF} FoxPro and .NET better than Linux?

He's certainly right about the development environment. There is nothing
in the Linux world that I've seen that comes close to the integration
and power of Visual Studio and SQL Server. And even the free express
editions are very viable platforms to build a business on.

THen again, it depends on whether the above is the most important thing
to you is the development environment.
-- 
  Alan Bourke
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]



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Re: [NF} FoxPro and .NET better than Linux?

2007-06-06 Thread Andy Davies

 Alan said:
  There is nothing in the Linux world that I've seen that comes close to
the integration and power of Visual Studio and SQL Server.

I used to hear good things about Kommodo but I 've never used it - anyone?

Andrew Davies  MBCS CITP
  - AndyD    8-)#



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Re: [NF} FoxPro and .NET better than Linux?

On 6/5/07, Eugene Vital [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 He speaks as though anyone cares what he is saying.


Meeeooowww! I actually appreciate his columns when he's advocating for
consumers against Big Companies. I think he's had some insightful
things to say on the DMCA, patents and copyrights. But I thought he
was off-base in several of the things he had to say in this column,
and wondered if others on ProFox list -  some pretty astute folks,
generally - would see similar problems.

I've tried starting similar discussions in Linux forums and either get
Windows-hating fanboys or I don't use WIndows for responses, which
makes for a pretty dull discussion.

-- 
Ted Roche
Ted Roche  Associates, LLC
http://www.tedroche.com


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Re: [NF} FoxPro and .NET better than Linux?

On 6/6/07, Stephen the Cook [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 This year has Expression Blend adding yet another layer to using XAML within
 .NET.  /Who has time to get good at this when it improves way to quick.

Assuming that it's possible to get good at DotNet at all. I'm not
convinced that's been proven.

-- 
Ted Roche
Ted Roche  Associates, LLC
http://www.tedroche.com


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Re: [NF} FoxPro and .NET better than Linux?

2007-06-06 Thread Leland F. Jackson, CPA

I use Komodo and I'm happy with it.  It makes it easy to organize a 
development project.  Komodo is not the fastest IDE, but it very feature 
rich,  and Komodo is stable as a rock.  Komodo runs on all the major 
platforms including Windows, Linux, Mac, and Solaris.  Komodo works with 
several OS agnostic languages like perl, python, Tcl/TK, and Ruby.  
Komodo is an ActiveState product.

I mostly use Komodo with the perl language.  ActiveState has some other 
products that work with perl like the PDK, (eg Perl Development Kit).  
It allows me to compile my perl application, so all dependencies, like 
CPAN modules, are included in the compiled code.  Also, the perl runtime 
engine is compiled into the code, so the product can run on any OS as an 
executable, whether perl is installed or not.  The PDK also insures that 
everyone will be running the same version of perl regarding the compiled 
application.

http://www.activestate.com/products/komodo_ide/

http://www.activestate.com/products/perl_dev_kit/

Regards,

LelandJ

Andy Davies wrote:
 Alan said:
  There is nothing in the Linux world that I've seen that comes close to
 
 the integration and power of Visual Studio and SQL Server.

 I used to hear good things about Kommodo but I 've never used it - anyone?

 Andrew Davies  MBCS CITP
   - AndyD8-)#



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Re: [NF} FoxPro and .NET better than Linux?

On 6/6/07, Alan Bourke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 He's certainly right about the development environment. There is nothing
 in the Linux world that I've seen that comes close to the integration
 and power of Visual Studio and SQL Server.

That hasn't been my experience. While there are a lot of developers in
the LAMP world who argue that such an IDE is overweight and gets in
the way (ask Ed and Paul, for example, who mostly work with text
editors and separate runtime, testing, debugging tools), there are a
couple of IDEs I've worked with that have the features you expect:
color-coding, syntax error flagging, project manager, integration with
source code control, debuggers, language completion and reference
(IntelliSense(tm)), integrated browsers, etc. Take a look at Eclipse
for example (here's a screenshot:
http://www.tedroche.com/Present/2005/FossFutureWeb/img8.html) or phpEd
(http://www.nusphere.com/products/phped_features.htm). Leland likes
Komodo  (http://www.activestate.com/products/komodo_ide/) and there
are lots of fans. SUN offers NetBeans
(http://www.netbeans.org/products/ide/).

For talking with databases, xCase rocks, and then there's phpMyAdmin,
phpPostAdmin, pgAdmin, Data Architect, and lots and lots and lots of
other tools.

 And even the free express
 editions are very viable platforms to build a business on.

And the free editions of Perl, Python, PHP, Ruby, MySQL and PostgreSQL
are pretty popular, too. And they're not limited to an expressly
crippled version.

 THen again, it depends on whether the above is the most important thing
 to you is the development environment.

Well, the most important thing in a development environment to me is
not being dependent on a sole-source vendor who can ruin the value of
the investment I've made in my business by changing the rules.

-- 
Ted Roche
Ted Roche  Associates, LLC
http://www.tedroche.com


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Re: [NF} FoxPro and .NET better than Linux?

2007-06-06 Thread Leland F. Jackson, CPA

Another impressive tool I've tried is Sun's Studio Creator 2.  
Applications written in Creator 2 are OS agnostic and Creator 2 is 
free.  I evaluated it on Linux.  Creator 2 even comes with its own web 
server.  Below is a link.  When the web page comes up, click on the 
product tour to get some idea of how Creator 2 works.

http://developers.sun.com/jscreator/

Regards,

LelandJ

Alan Bourke wrote:
 He's certainly right about the development environment. There is nothing
 in the Linux world that I've seen that comes close to the integration
 and power of Visual Studio and SQL Server. And even the free express
 editions are very viable platforms to build a business on.

 THen again, it depends on whether the above is the most important thing
 to you is the development environment.
   



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Re: [NF} FoxPro and .NET better than Linux?

Leland F. Jackson, CPA wrote:
 snipped The interest and growth of OS agnostic languages 
 and applications, including JAVA, is probably why Micorsoft developed 
 C#, and then made C# open, so C# would become a language that is OS 
 agnostic.
   

I didn't think that C# was open source (or did you mean a different 
kind of open)? 

-- 
Michael J. Babcock, MCP
MB Software Solutions, LLC
http://mbsoftwaresolutions.com
http://fabmate.com
Work smarter, not harder, with MBSS custom software solutions!



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Re: [NF} FoxPro and .NET better than Linux?

Andy Davies wrote:
 Stephen Russell [predictably g] said:
   
 .NET is overwhelming in it's capabilities today and they are going to
 
 roll out a more feature rich version later this year or early next.

 exactly what was said about .net v1, and v2 was a re-learning exercise.
 There is no (ongoing) money in selling a stable platform!
   

I believe that the fact that v2 was a big overhaul (that's what I heard, 
anyway) was another deterrent from other developers wanting to jump onto 
the DotNet bandwagon---no one likes having to retrain over and over so 
quickly.

-- 
Michael J. Babcock, MCP
MB Software Solutions, LLC
http://mbsoftwaresolutions.com
http://fabmate.com
Work smarter, not harder, with MBSS custom software solutions!



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Re: [NF} FoxPro and .NET better than Linux?

Stephen the Cook wrote:
 Who has time to get good at this when it improves way to quick.

   

This is exactly what I mean!  It drives new developers crazy with 
anxiety.  Ugh...what I learn now won't matter come next release--I'll 
have to relearn yet again (and that means the code may not be backward 
compatible either).  How many times must I write the same piece of code 
that works?  ;-)

-- 
Michael J. Babcock, MCP
MB Software Solutions, LLC
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http://fabmate.com
Work smarter, not harder, with MBSS custom software solutions!



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Re: [NF} FoxPro and .NET better than Linux?

Alan Bourke wrote:
 He's certainly right about the development environment. There is nothing
 in the Linux world that I've seen that comes close to the integration
 and power of Visual Studio and SQL Server. And even the free express
 editions are very viable platforms to build a business on.

 THen again, it depends on whether the above is the most important thing
 to you is the development environment.
   
It's where you're spending the majority of your time, working on your 
applicationsto me, yes.  I wonder what other possible answers there 
are, and if they're more important, is that because the person is a 
die-hard command line or all-text-code junky?!??

-- 
Michael J. Babcock, MCP
MB Software Solutions, LLC
http://mbsoftwaresolutions.com
http://fabmate.com
Work smarter, not harder, with MBSS custom software solutions!



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Re: [NF} FoxPro and .NET better than Linux?

2007-06-06 Thread Leland F. Jackson, CPA

Microsoft developed C#, but instead of making it proprietary, Microsoft 
released C# into the international community (eg Ecma), so everyone has 
access to the C# language.  This in effect opened up the C# language.  
Changes and additions to the C# language must be submitted to Ecma for 
approval.

SUN has followed suit and has made JAVA open.

http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/netframework/aa569283.aspx

http://www.sun.com/2006-1113/feature/

Regards,

LelandJ

MB Software Solutions wrote:
 Leland F. Jackson, CPA wrote:
   
 snipped The interest and growth of OS agnostic languages 
 and applications, including JAVA, is probably why Micorsoft developed 
 C#, and then made C# open, so C# would become a language that is OS 
 agnostic.
   
 

 I didn't think that C# was open source (or did you mean a different 
 kind of open)? 

   



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Re: [NF} FoxPro and .NET better than Linux?

Leland F. Jackson, CPA wrote:
 Microsoft developed C#, but instead of making it proprietary, Microsoft 
 released C# into the international community (eg Ecma), so everyone has 
 access to the C# language.  This in effect opened up the C# language.  
 Changes and additions to the C# language must be submitted to Ecma for 
 approval.

 SUN has followed suit and has made JAVA open.

 http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/netframework/aa569283.aspx

 http://www.sun.com/2006-1113/feature/

   

Wasn't JAVA supposed to have been made open LONG ago?  Wonder why it 
took so long for Sun to do it?

-- 
Michael J. Babcock, MCP
MB Software Solutions, LLC
http://mbsoftwaresolutions.com
http://fabmate.com
Work smarter, not harder, with MBSS custom software solutions!



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Re: [NF} FoxPro and .NET better than Linux?

On 6/6/07, MB Software Solutions [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Wasn't JAVA supposed to have been made open LONG ago?  Wonder why it
 took so long for Sun to do it?

That's a really interesting story. It was the front-cover-article on
Linux Journal last month:

http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/9624

-- 
Ted Roche
Ted Roche  Associates, LLC
http://www.tedroche.com


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Re: [NF} FoxPro and .NET better than Linux?

  Wasn't JAVA supposed to have been made open LONG ago?  Wonder why it
  took so long for Sun to do it?

 That's a really interesting story. It was the front-cover-article on
 Linux Journal last month:

 http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/9624

I just read the first few sentences, but read something that doesn't make sense:

...when he was selling freeware from home as a sideline while working
at Unisys.

Selling freeware?


-- 
Derek


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Re: [NF} FoxPro and .NET better than Linux?

2007-06-06 Thread Ed Leafe

On Jun 6, 2007, at 10:55 AM, Derek Kalweit wrote:

 ...when he was selling freeware from home as a sideline while working
 at Unisys.

 Selling freeware?

You can create a compilation disk of free software and sell it.  
What's so hard to understand?

-- Ed Leafe
-- http://leafe.com
-- http://dabodev.com




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Re: [NF} FoxPro and .NET better than Linux?

Derek Kalweit wrote:
 I just read the first few sentences, but read something that doesn't make 
 sense:

 ...when he was selling freeware from home as a sideline while working
 at Unisys.

 Selling freeware?
   
Shareware (not freeware) perhaps?  Or perhaps they meant freeware as in 
freedom of choice instead of free price  gdr


-- 
Michael J. Babcock, MCP
MB Software Solutions, LLC
http://mbsoftwaresolutions.com
http://fabmate.com
Work smarter, not harder, with MBSS custom software solutions!



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Re: [NF} FoxPro and .NET better than Linux?

MB Software Solutions wrote:


 I believe that the fact that v2 was a big overhaul (that's what I heard, 
 anyway) was another deterrent from other developers wanting to jump onto 
 the DotNet bandwagon---no one likes having to retrain over and over so 
 quickly.
Per MSFT, .NET 1.x series was revolutionary, so revolutionary that...it 
isn't supported anymore.

Bill



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Re: [NF} FoxPro and .NET better than Linux?

  ...when he was selling freeware from home as a sideline while working
  at Unisys.

  Selling freeware?

 You can create a compilation disk of free software and sell it.
 What's so hard to understand?

That's not selling freeware, that's charging for the service of
burning onto the media, distribution, etc. Secondly, the term
'freeware' usually refers to something different than the gpl'd 'free
software' that you're referring to(far simpler than GPL), particularly
back in the late 80's as this was...


-- 
Derek


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Re: [NF} FoxPro and .NET better than Linux?

  I believe that the fact that v2 was a big overhaul (that's what I heard,
  anyway) was another deterrent from other developers wanting to jump onto
  the DotNet bandwagon---no one likes having to retrain over and over so
  quickly.

 Per MSFT, .NET 1.x series was revolutionary, so revolutionary that...it
 isn't supported anymore.

Just like VFP. Well, depending on your definition of 'support' anyways...


-- 
Derek


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Re: [NF} FoxPro and .NET better than Linux?

On 6/6/07, Bill Anderson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Per MSFT, .NET 1.x series was revolutionary, so revolutionary that...it
 isn't supported anymore.

DotNet 1.x isn't supported any more? What about those revolutionary
DotNet OnePointOh applications that MS featured at the rollout, like
the one at Revlon?

-- 
Ted Roche
Ted Roche  Associates, LLC
http://www.tedroche.com


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Re: [NF} FoxPro and .NET better than Linux?

Ted Roche wrote:
 On 6/6/07, Bill Anderson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

   
 Per MSFT, .NET 1.x series was revolutionary, so revolutionary that...it
 isn't supported anymore.
 

 DotNet 1.x isn't supported any more? What about those revolutionary
 DotNet OnePointOh applications that MS featured at the rollout, like
 the one at Revlon?
Or Dell?

Bill



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Re: [NF} FoxPro and .NET better than Linux?

Derek Kalweit wrote:
 I believe that the fact that v2 was a big overhaul (that's what I heard,
 anyway) was another deterrent from other developers wanting to jump onto
 the DotNet bandwagon---no one likes having to retrain over and over so
 quickly.
   

   
 Per MSFT, .NET 1.x series was revolutionary, so revolutionary that...it
 isn't supported anymore.
 

 Just like VFP. Well, depending on your definition of 'support' anyways...
Let's put it this way, VFP will have Vista support. those revolutionary, 
revolutionary .NET 1.x apps won't...

Bill



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Re: [NF} FoxPro and .NET better than Linux?

  Secondly, the term
  'freeware' usually refers to something different than the gpl'd 'free
  software' that you're referring to(far simpler than GPL), particularly
  back in the late 80's as this was...

 Yeah, and before the internet, you had to have disks mailed to you.
 I remember people selling disks of games, fonts, etc.

Indeed-- or dial-in BBS's. compilations on a disk were very rare as
well-- rather, you had multiple disks for one thing... :-)


-- 
Derek


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Re: [NF} FoxPro and .NET better than Linux?

Derek Kalweit wrote:
 I believe that the fact that v2 was a big overhaul (that's what I heard,
 anyway) was another deterrent from other developers wanting to jump onto
 the DotNet bandwagon---no one likes having to retrain over and over so
 quickly.
   

   
 Per MSFT, .NET 1.x series was revolutionary, so revolutionary that...it
 isn't supported anymore.
 

 Just like VFP. Well, depending on your definition of 'support' anyways...


   
But the backwards compatibility makes VFP really attractive!!!  DotNot 
can't say that apparently?

-- 
Michael J. Babcock, MCP
MB Software Solutions, LLC
http://mbsoftwaresolutions.com
http://fabmate.com
Work smarter, not harder, with MBSS custom software solutions!



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Re: [NF} FoxPro and .NET better than Linux?

Bill Anderson wrote:
 Ted Roche wrote:
   
 DotNet 1.x isn't supported any more? What about those revolutionary
 DotNet OnePointOh applications that MS featured at the rollout, like
 the one at Revlon?
 
 Or Dell?

   

What're you guys talking about?  Got any URLs to illustrate your point?

-- 
Michael J. Babcock, MCP
MB Software Solutions, LLC
http://mbsoftwaresolutions.com
http://fabmate.com
Work smarter, not harder, with MBSS custom software solutions!



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Re: [NF} FoxPro and .NET better than Linux?

  Per MSFT, .NET 1.x series was revolutionary, so revolutionary that...it
  isn't supported anymore.

  Just like VFP. Well, depending on your definition of 'support' anyways...

 But the backwards compatibility makes VFP really attractive!!!  DotNot
 can't say that apparently?

VFP7, VFP8, and VFP9 all had things that were broken by default(SET
ENGINEBEHAVIOR, etc.). .NET 1.x-2.x are similar things. The core
language didn't change-- some obscure things did, and new features
were added to 2.x, etc. I'm not 100% familiar, but I did look at the
differences and all I could find was obscure things that were in 1.x
and not 2.x...


-- 
Derek


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RE: [NF} FoxPro and .NET better than Linux?


On Wed, 6 Jun 2007 09:33:46 +0100, Andy Davies
[EMAIL PROTECTED] said:

 exactly what was said about .net v1, and v2 was a re-learning exercise.
 There is no (ongoing) money in selling a stable platform!

.NET is free. As are the entry-level versions of the various dev tools.
-- 
  Alan Bourke
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]



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Re: [NF} FoxPro and .NET better than Linux?

Older version not supported any more! More news at 10!

-- 
  Alan Bourke
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]



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Re: [NF} FoxPro and .NET better than Linux?

The only thing I've ever come across is that the recommended approach
for using configuration files was deprecated in 2.0. It will still work,
it'll just throw up warnings when you compile it. Granted, they did
replace the old way with an overly complicated method as well.
-- 
  Alan Bourke
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]



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Re: [NF} FoxPro and .NET better than Linux?

On 6/6/07, MB Software Solutions [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  Ted Roche wrote:
  the one at Revlon?
 
 Bill Anderson wrote:
  Or Dell?

 What're you guys talking about?  Got any URLs to illustrate your point?


I think Dell is at www.dell.com. Revlon... hmm, I'm not sure, but you
can probably google it.

Dell and Revlon were the two case studies of early adopters featured
at the official DotNet 1DotZero rollout world-wide net-cast as
incredible successes of DotNet before it was even officially released.
Word on the street is that huge contingents of Microsofties (likely
via MS Consulting Services) were involved in pitching, designing,
implementing and rolling out both applications. Further word on the
street is that neither project actually ended up being used by any
real end-users. To be fair, 80% of projects of that size probably
fail.

-- 
Ted Roche
Ted Roche  Associates, LLC
http://www.tedroche.com


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Re: [NF} FoxPro and .NET better than Linux?

Ted Roche wrote:
 I think Dell is at www.dell.com. Revlon... hmm, I'm not sure, but you
 can probably google it.
   
They make them thar computer thingies, don't they?  g

 Dell and Revlon were the two case studies of early adopters featured
 at the official DotNet 1DotZero rollout world-wide net-cast as
 incredible successes of DotNet before it was even officially released.
 Word on the street is that huge contingents of Microsofties (likely
 via MS Consulting Services) were involved in pitching, designing,
 implementing and rolling out both applications. Further word on the
 street is that neither project actually ended up being used by any
 real end-users. To be fair, 80% of projects of that size probably
 fail.
   

So the key to success is to keep the projects small, eh?  That's why I 
like working with SMBs!   ;-)

-- 
Michael J. Babcock, MCP
MB Software Solutions, LLC
http://mbsoftwaresolutions.com
http://fabmate.com
Work smarter, not harder, with MBSS custom software solutions!



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RE: [NF} FoxPro and .NET better than Linux?

2007-06-06 Thread David Crooks

On Wednesday, June 06, 2007 12:54 PM Michael wrote:

So the key to success is to keep the projects small, eh?  That's why I 
like working with SMBs!   ;-)

Just read this column this morning:
http://www.sswug.org/nlarchive.asp 

David L. Crooks



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Re: [NF} FoxPro and .NET better than Linux?

 real end-users. To be fair, 80% of projects of that size probably
 fail.

True. Companies of that size also have a habit of outsourcing them to
India, too... Coincidence? Maybe...


-- 
Derek


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Re: [NF} FoxPro and .NET better than Linux?

On 6/6/07, Derek Kalweit [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  real end-users. To be fair, 80% of projects of that size probably
  fail.

 True. Companies of that size also have a habit of outsourcing them to
 India, too... Coincidence? Maybe...

Coincidence in this case. I believe the projects were sourced to
Microsoft Consulting Services. Wonder what their batting average is.

-- 
Ted Roche
Ted Roche  Associates, LLC
http://www.tedroche.com


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Re: [NF} FoxPro and .NET better than Linux?

   real end-users. To be fair, 80% of projects of that size probably
   fail.

  True. Companies of that size also have a habit of outsourcing them to
  India, too... Coincidence? Maybe...

 Coincidence in this case. I believe the projects were sourced to
 Microsoft Consulting Services. Wonder what their batting average is.

Microsoft isn't just Redmond anymore..


-- 
Derek


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RE: [NF} FoxPro and .NET better than Linux?

Ted Roche  wrote:
 On 6/6/07, Stephen the Cook [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 This year has Expression Blend adding yet another layer to using XAML
 within .NET.  /Who has time to get good at this when it improves way
 to quick. 
 
 Assuming that it's possible to get good at DotNet at all. I'm not
 convinced that's been proven. 

Is that comment coming from a php flip boy?  

Stephen Russell
DBA / .Net Developer

Memphis TN 38115
901.246-0159

A good way to judge people is by observing how they treat those who
can do them absolutely no good. ---Unknown

http://spaces.msn.com/members/srussell/

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Re: [NF} FoxPro and .NET better than Linux?

2007-06-06 Thread Eugene Vital

Ted Roche wrote:
 On 6/5/07, Eugene Vital [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
   
 He speaks as though anyone cares what he is saying.

 

 Meeeooowww! I actually appreciate his columns when he's advocating for
 consumers against Big Companies. I think he's had some insightful
 things to say on the DMCA, patents and copyrights. But I thought he
 was off-base in several of the things he had to say in this column,
 and wondered if others on ProFox list -  some pretty astute folks,
 generally - would see similar problems.

 I've tried starting similar discussions in Linux forums and either get
 Windows-hating fanboys or I don't use WIndows for responses, which
 makes for a pretty dull discussion.
You did say something about a Flame war, didn't you ? :-P
















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Re: [NF} FoxPro and .NET better than Linux?

Ted Roche wrote:
 I think Dell is at www.dell.com. Revlon... hmm, I'm not sure, but you
 can probably google it.

 Dell and Revlon were the two case studies of early adopters featured
 at the official DotNet 1DotZero rollout world-wide net-cast as
 incredible successes of DotNet before it was even officially released.
 Word on the street is that huge contingents of Microsofties (likely
 via MS Consulting Services) were involved in pitching, designing,
 implementing and rolling out both applications. Further word on the
 street is that neither project actually ended up being used by any
 real end-users. To be fair, 80% of projects of that size probably
 fail.

   

...and from what I understand, the companies didn't have to pay a cent 
for the development of these applications. Apparently, they got their 
money's worth g.

One of the all-time great quotes from a MSFT marketer at LA Fox re: .NET 
1.0 -- Companies are throwing out their mission critical applications 
sight unseen to rewrite them in the beta version of .NET [1.0].

I must be cranky today, sorry g.

Bill





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Re: [NF} FoxPro and .NET better than Linux?

Bill Anderson wrote:
 ...and from what I understand, the companies didn't have to pay a cent 
 for the development of these applications. Apparently, they got their 
 money's worth g.
   
lol!  Would they have spent the money that normally would have been 
required to write those applications?  I'll bet that whatever money was 
spent on it, they could have saved money having it written in VFP 
(assuming it could have been) since it required much much more 
development time to do something in DotNot 1.0 that you could have done 
much much easier in VFP.  g

 One of the all-time great quotes from a MSFT marketer at LA Fox re: .NET 
 1.0 -- Companies are throwing out their mission critical applications 
 sight unseen to rewrite them in the beta version of .NET [1.0].
   
That's absolutely absurd!  Talk about fools drinking the kool-aid!  What 
a freakin' idiot.  He was paid to say crap like that...regardless of how 
ludicrous it was.

-- 
Michael J. Babcock, MCP
MB Software Solutions, LLC
http://mbsoftwaresolutions.com
http://fabmate.com
Work smarter, not harder, with MBSS custom software solutions!



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Re: [NF} FoxPro and .NET better than Linux?

On 6/6/07, Eugene Vital [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 You did say something about a Flame war, didn't you ? :-P

I did indeed. Throw a little gasoline on the fire and we'll all have a
wonderful time.

It was getting too quiet around here...

-- 
Ted Roche
Ted Roche  Associates, LLC
http://www.tedroche.com


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Re: [NF} FoxPro and .NET better than Linux?

On 6/6/07, Stephen the Cook [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Ted Roche  wrote:

 Is that comment coming from a php flip boy?


That's a new title. I've been called worse.

Microsoft set Windows development back ten years with DotNet. I had to
do something while I was waiting for the dust to clear. I've been
having a blast. I like Python more than PHP, but PHP is paying the
bills right now.

-- 
Ted Roche
Ted Roche  Associates, LLC
http://www.tedroche.com


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RE: [NF} FoxPro and .NET better than Linux?

MB Software Solutions  wrote:
 Stephen the Cook wrote:
 Who has time to get good at this when it improves way to quick.
 
 
 
 This is exactly what I mean!  It drives new developers crazy with
 anxiety.  Ugh...what I learn now won't matter come next
 release--I'll have to relearn yet again (and that means the code may
 not be backward compatible either).  How many times must I write the
 same piece of code that works?  ;-)

That really isn't the problem at all.  The old code works, but could you
change a looping scan to a LINQ statement?  The bar is getting raised all
the time and it's hard to stay with it.

 

Stephen Russell
DBA / .Net Developer

Memphis TN 38115
901.246-0159

A good way to judge people is by observing how they treat those who
can do them absolutely no good. ---Unknown

http://spaces.msn.com/members/srussell/

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Re: [NF} FoxPro and .NET better than Linux?

Stephen the Cook wrote:
 MB Software Solutions  wrote:
   
 Stephen the Cook wrote:
 
 Who has time to get good at this when it improves way to quick.


   
 This is exactly what I mean!  It drives new developers crazy with
 anxiety.  Ugh...what I learn now won't matter come next
 release--I'll have to relearn yet again (and that means the code may
 not be backward compatible either).  How many times must I write the
 same piece of code that works?  ;-)
 

 That really isn't the problem at all.  The old code works, but could you
 change a looping scan to a LINQ statement?  The bar is getting raised all
 the time and it's hard to stay with it.
   

Why does the saying if it ain't broke, ... come to mind?  Sure, I 
could rip all the walls off of my house to use the latest/greatest 
technology in siding, but would it really be worth it?  Likewise with 
rewriting a working application in DotNyet!

-- 
Michael J. Babcock, MCP
MB Software Solutions, LLC
http://mbsoftwaresolutions.com
http://fabmate.com
Work smarter, not harder, with MBSS custom software solutions!



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RE: [NF} FoxPro and .NET better than Linux?