[RE-wrenches] AC V DC RE: electrolysis

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Friends:



I have an installation of 12 Enphase IQ inverters that is downstream from a
generator transfer switch.  During power outages the generator will run
poorly when the Enphase is on and the sun is shining.  The problems go away
when the Enphase is shut off.  No surprises about this.



The Enphase is installed on a barn about 150 conduit feet from the
generator transfer switch.  My plan is to create a low voltage signal when
the generator is running and send it to a coil on a contactor in the barn.
Said contactor will disconnect the 12 micro-inverters.



There is existing one 26 AWG pairs of a Cat 6 cable running between the
buildings.  I have found a two pole, 30A contactor that draws 7 watts on
the coil.  The voltage drop calcs on 150 feet of 26 AWG wire shows a 24
volt signal will not cause excessive voltage drop (~4%).



Here is where I am uncertain:  Should I run 24 volts AC or DC?  My concern
about DC is if there are any damp connections, electrolysis will occur that
might erode the 26 AWG conductors.  We’ve all seen powder where copper used
to be.  Is AC less susceptible to electrolysis?  My research has turned up
no pertinent conclusions.



Thanks in advance.



William Miller



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Dual battery bank switch for 48 VDC system

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Greg:

Let me say I think the idea is generally bad.  Your client would need to be
actively involved managing this system on an hour by hour basis or both
battery banks are likely to be ruined.  If you want to switch between
batteries, unless both battery arrays are at a very similar voltage (+/- 0.5
volts) you should not parallel them.  In that scenario you would need to
shut down the inverter(s), switch battery banks, then restart the inverter.
A breaker interlock may be in order to prevent bad things from happening.
Like I said, a bad idea.  If you have too much battery to match the PV
capabilities you need to reduce the battery bank capacity.

If this system includes valid BOS components, and you still want to
experiment, integrate within that system by adding a battery breaker.  If it
does not have a decent BOS (Outback Flexware, Midnite DC breaker panel, for
example) that is a problem in itself.  Add the BOS.  The PV charge needs to
have either two battery breakers or be wired on the inverter side of the
battery breaker, an arrangement that I do not recommend.

Did I mention I think this is a bad idea?

William Miller

Miller Solar
17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
805-438-5600
www.millersolar.com
CA Lic. 773985



-Original Message-
From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On
Behalf Of greg egan via RE-wrenches
Sent: Saturday, June 15, 2024 10:18 AM
To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Cc: greg egan
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Dual battery bank switch for 48 VDC system

Wrenches,  I have a customer who has a 2 strings of AGM's @ 48 VDC that
we want to split so we can charge them at decent charge rate. Adding
more PV and/or larger generator and inverter is cost prohibitive.  I've
seen Blue Seas (#3002) 4 position 500 amp switches that are rated for
32VDC.  Max he could possibly pull at once with his system is less than
100 amps.

I would assume the Blue Seas 3002 would work and I'd probably use it in
my garage, but I'm not comfortable recommending it to a customer.  Any
suggestions on a 60 VDC rated unit that could handle say 150 amps and
4/0 cables?

Maybe I'm being too cautious since the max load would be < 6KW and the
3002 is rated for 16kW load (32 VDC /500A)?   Thoughts?

Thank you,

Greg Egan
Remote Power Inc.
Fairbanks, AK
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[RE-wrenches] Need 1 Siemens SP160-24P

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

To replace a failed unit.  As always, off list response is appreciated.



Thanks,



William



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15k solar panel frame grounding

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Friends:



On a related subject, I was researching the question: What color should my
grounded PV conductor be?



History:



In the beginning, negative leads were always black.



When it became apparent that negative PV leads were indeed grounded, the
requirement to have them white or grey became enforced per 200.6(A)(3).



When transformerless inverters were implemented it was assumed the negative
was floating, so white/grey was no longer acceptable.



Then the NEC recognized that some leads were kind of grounded, not solidly,
but through some components, either OCPD, resistors, sensor or a
combination.  A new term was created,  functionally grounded.  This
grounding was most often done to implement ground fault detection and
interruption, or GFDI.  I always assumed that if PV equipment had GFDI it
had to feature a grounded polarity, most often indirectly, or functionally.



Grounded conductors need to be white or grey.  Therefore we are back to
needing grey/white, most often for the negative lead.



I wanted to verify if the Sol-Arc PV inputs established a grounded lead.
They have GFDI so I assumed it likely they did.  In order to verify, I
called Sol-Arc.  Their tech support had no idea what I was talking about.
They did not know the term functionally grounded and could not verify if
their equipment established a ground connection, solid or otherwise, to
either polarity.



This distinction applies here because it may help determine what is causing
the GFDI fault.  I can’t tell you for sure if one side of the PV circuit is
functionally grounded, but if it is, grounding it elsewhere will defeat the
GFDI and may cause nuisance tripping.



Does anyone know if Sol-Arc PV inputs have a functional ground bond?



Side note:  I called my local Greentech distributor, who sells plenty of
Sol-Arc inverters and asked if they carried white PV wire.  They said none
of their customers are asking for white PV wire.  I suspect they should be
using white for negative leads.  I can’t confirm that because Sol-Arc can’t
tell me it the PV circuits are functionally grounded or not.  Frustrating!



Fortunately the manual for Outback charge controllers specifically says the
negative lead is functionally grounded.  So if you are installing Outback
CCs you must use white or grey.  PV-Cables sells white PV wire.



Confusing?  Yeah, a bit.  But as my local roofing companies say:  “Solar?
It can’t be that complicated!”



William Miller



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985





*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches
*Sent:* Wednesday, June 5, 2024 6:02 AM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Cc:* Jason Szumlanski
*Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15k solar panel frame grounding



Can anybody clarify the following instruction from the manual?



"GND the panel MOUNTS/FRAMES to any GND outside the circuit via 12AWG wire"



Does this mean do not connect the array equipment grounding conductor to
the grounding terminal in the inverter? Where would be the suggested place
to connect the equipment grounding conductor, and why does it make a
difference? It would still be electrically bonded to the grounding terminal
in the inverter.



I'm asking because I do, in fact, have an equipment grounding conductor
from the array connected to the ground terminal in the inverter at a home.
I am getting an F08 GFDI fault. The manual doesn't say anything about the
DC side with respect to this error. It suggests it is an AC current leakage
to ground. But Sol-Ark tech support suggested that I disconnect the PV to
rule it out as a source of the fault.







Jason Szumlanski

Florida Solar Design Group
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Re: [RE-wrenches] How many times can a rafter have a lag screw put in and out before it is no longer structurally sound? Some roofs getting their 3rd set of new shingles

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Scot:



Fascinating question.  It’s a bit ironic that the changing climate is
damaging the equipment we are utilizing to combat climate change.



A lag unscrewed will damage a wooden member less than a lag ripped out.
>From your post it seems we are dealing with the former, rather than the
latter.



If your layout isn’t changing there is a likelihood that the new mounting
locations will be at our near the old mounting locations.  This will be
true for a rafter lag or deck mount screw.  It seems to me the process of
re-screwing in the same spot in a rafter is just as questionable as
re-screwing in the same spot in sheeting.  I see no benefit in deck
mounting and many disadvantages.



If severe weather is an issue I would avoid deck mounting unless you have
vetted the decking and the applicability of the chosen fasteners to that
material.  I would not standing-seam mount without knowing how the sheeting
panels are secured and finding a method to calculate how many clips are
needed given the increasing wind loads.



I see two questions about reinstalling screws repeatedly:

1.   Is the rafter less able to support loads?  Or,

2.   Is the rafter (or decking) less able to retain the fasteners holding
the PV to the roof?



Speculation on the above:

1.   Wood fibers adhere to each other.  They are not like a bundle of
straws.  If you damage a fiber in one place, it is supported on either side
of the point of damage by this adherence.  My guess is by just withdrawing
screws a few times you do not compromise the load handling ability of a
rafter member.  Site built rafters require different considerations than
trusses.  Site built are a wild-card and need to be considered on a
case-by-case basis.

2.   If you penetrate wood with screws multiple times in a small area, you
are going to make that area “soft.”  Screw holding capabilities will be
drastically reduced.



Options that I see:



1.   Flashed stanchions.  The lags never need to be removed.

2.   Blocking, to attach in new locations.

3.   Sistering, again to attach in new locations.

4.   Not deck mounting (IMHO).



Anecdote:  We had a tile roof mount inspected one August afternoon.  The
inspector insisted on looking in the attic.  We asked why and he said this
city has a particular concern about structural integrity of wood framed
roofs.  I was aware of this because I have had some silly arguments about
this with the lead inspector.  Apparently they have seen a lot of big-box
solar company installers drive lags carelessly and had the lags blow out
the side of the rafter.  If they spot this they make the installer hire an
engineer and design a system to sister the rafters to engineering
standards.  I totally get this concern.  We use a rafter locator and are
really careful.  This is not to say we have not had a blow out now and
then.  You gotta have a feel for the torque resistance of a lag while
seating.



Thank you for bringing this up.  As I said, fascinating (to this wonk).



William



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985





*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
Behalf Of *Scot Arey via RE-wrenches
*Sent:* Wednesday, May 29, 2024 3:16 PM
*To:* 'RE-wrenches'
*Cc:* scot.a...@solarcentex.com
*Subject:* [RE-wrenches] How many times can a rafter have a lag screw put
in and out before it is no longer structurally sound? Some roofs getting
their 3rd set of new shingles



With all our Texas hail storms, we now have roof solar systems that might
have to come down for the third time as hail-pockmarked shingles need
replacement. We’re at the 11-year mark of doing business and we have some
customers ready for another insurance roof claim,



So that means a new set of lag screws drilled into rafters…after how many
times is that 2x6 rafter not 2x6 strength?

I’ve asked this to my 3rd party structural engineer and instead of an
answer got a “wow, hadn’t thought of that.” We’ve considered going to deck
mounts to avoid rafters at the 3rd “detach and reset.”

Any of you guys consider this and have your techniques? I suppose in
perfect world, the mount would stay in place and roofer would shingle
around it but we still use old-school metal flashing so that is really not
possible. I look forward to hearing your thoughts on this.
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Re: [RE-wrenches] I know you've all said, "I told you so..." SolarEdge...

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Sorry but my previous post went out before I finished my thoughts.

I know MLPE electronics can be a pain. I hated the RSS requirements when
first introduced. However solar energy sources pose unique safety concerns.
There is no safety disconnect on the sun. IMHO, having a means to safely
work on high voltage PV circuits during daylight hours is worth the added
cost and inconvenience.

With all due respect.  Rant off.

William Miller
Miller Solar.com
805-438-5600
www.millersolar.com


On Fri, May 24, 2024 at 12:25 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via
RE-wrenches  wrote:

> Well to me the final, final straw is their stock price losing 2/3 its
> value in a year.
>
> I tell all of my clients if you ever have to do roof solar, you should use
> a central inverter and not ever put electronics on a roof. Bad enough to
> put solar panels up there!
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
> "we go where powerlines don't"
><http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/>https://offgridsolar1.com/ 
> <https://offgridsolar1.com/>  <http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/>
> e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net 
> text 209 813 0060*
>
>
> On 2024-05-24 9:10 am, Scot Arey via RE-wrenches wrote:
>
> SolarEdge…I keep saying they fixed their reliability issues, but the
> latest storms in Central Texas leave me again with frustration. Some
> systems worked, others did not. Worst was ones that were surge-sensitive as
> grid utility power was restored so a system in backup yesterday turns into
> a service call with the grid back, as a finicky BUI transfer switch didn’t
> go back to grid power.
>
> Make the run to the affected customer and wait and wait and wait for tech
> support, only for them to finally take my call after I’ve packed everything
> up (how long must we wait for a call pickup?) and the first question is
> “send us pics of the installation.” Of course that is to grade the work and
> despite me saying we replaced a comms card in November, and don’t you have
> that picture still? I get the tier-1 blocking before I get to tier-2.
>
> I’ve had a lot of final straws with SolarEdge, each time assuaged by a
> “we’re fixing reliability…we’ve improved tech support” but objectively,
> this company drives most of my reliability frustration. Intra-“box” comms
> are so finicky. I’ve told them they have Backup Interface Units that get
> stuck between grid and backup during the rapid on and off utility outages
> that come with many storms and they try to say “we have not seen that” but
> I tell them I gave five examples just from me!
>
> Vent over…know many of you have left SolarEdge and I suppose its stock
> price a manifestation of that.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] I know you've all said, "I told you so..." SolarEdge...

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Tell that to your local fire fighters.

William Miller
Miller Solar.com
805-438-5600
www.millersolar.com


On Fri, May 24, 2024 at 12:25 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via
RE-wrenches  wrote:

> Well to me the final, final straw is their stock price losing 2/3 its
> value in a year.
>
> I tell all of my clients if you ever have to do roof solar, you should use
> a central inverter and not ever put electronics on a roof. Bad enough to
> put solar panels up there!
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
> "we go where powerlines don't"
><http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/>https://offgridsolar1.com/ 
> <https://offgridsolar1.com/>  <http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/>
> e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net 
> text 209 813 0060*
>
>
> On 2024-05-24 9:10 am, Scot Arey via RE-wrenches wrote:
>
> SolarEdge…I keep saying they fixed their reliability issues, but the
> latest storms in Central Texas leave me again with frustration. Some
> systems worked, others did not. Worst was ones that were surge-sensitive as
> grid utility power was restored so a system in backup yesterday turns into
> a service call with the grid back, as a finicky BUI transfer switch didn’t
> go back to grid power.
>
> Make the run to the affected customer and wait and wait and wait for tech
> support, only for them to finally take my call after I’ve packed everything
> up (how long must we wait for a call pickup?) and the first question is
> “send us pics of the installation.” Of course that is to grade the work and
> despite me saying we replaced a comms card in November, and don’t you have
> that picture still? I get the tier-1 blocking before I get to tier-2.
>
> I’ve had a lot of final straws with SolarEdge, each time assuaged by a
> “we’re fixing reliability…we’ve improved tech support” but objectively,
> this company drives most of my reliability frustration. Intra-“box” comms
> are so finicky. I’ve told them they have Backup Interface Units that get
> stuck between grid and backup during the rapid on and off utility outages
> that come with many storms and they try to say “we have not seen that” but
> I tell them I gave five examples just from me!
>
> Vent over…know many of you have left SolarEdge and I suppose its stock
> price a manifestation of that.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ___
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> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org
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[RE-wrenches] Outback:

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Friends:



Optics is still down as of Monday morning.  Outback does not answer
telephone calls.  Options on their automated attendant are Tech Support and
Sales.  Either selection directs you to sales but no one picks up.  I left
several messages.



I called Zonna Energy to ask.  They told me Outback had been purchased and
moved to Texas.  Zonna has stock and is being promised manufacturing will
be continued.  Zonna is aware Optics and Tech Support are unavailable but
don’t know when it will return. Zonna says Outback has been responding to
on-line case requests.  They seem confident that the Outback line will
continue as before.



That’s what I have learned this morning.



William



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Optics

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Friends:



I am sure you are all acutely aware, but this is not a trivial matter.  We
depend on Optics for alerts and trouble shooting.  We rely on Optics for
the history it records to analyze trends and evaluate production and
consumption. I doubt the data lost will back-fill.  I sell Outback based in
great part on the Optics interface.  For this system to be down for days at
a time is not a good sign at all.



I will be lighting up the phone lines on Monday to find out what happened
and to emphasize this cannot become a pattern.



William



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985





*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
Behalf Of *Lou Russo via RE-wrenches
*Sent:* Saturday, May 18, 2024 11:50 AM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Cc:* Lou Russo
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Optics



All my sites are currently down.



Not related but I tried to call tech support yesterday during business
hours and got message saying thank you for calling Outback Sales leave a
message.



I do hope they are just in transition but I got a bad feeling about this. I
hope I am wrong.



Has anyone heard for sure who bought them? I know they were bought from
talking to tech support but that is all I know and the Internet has 0 info
on a recent sale.



On Sat, May 18, 2024, 6:48 AM Dan Fink via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

Mine all went down yesterday at noon MDT. I wonder if this has to do with
the sale of Outback?


Dan Fink

Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC

IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation

NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector

NABCEP PV Associate

d anbo...@gmail.com

970-672-4342








On Sat, May 18, 2024 at 10:17 AM William Miller via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

Friends:



100% of our Optics sites are down since 11 AM yesterday. Is it just us?

William Miller
Miller Solar.com
805-438-5600
www.millersolar.com



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[RE-wrenches] Optics

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Friends:

100% of our Optics sites are down since 11 AM yesterday. Is it just us?

William Miller
Miller Solar.com
805-438-5600
www.millersolar.com
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Fortress Avalon

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Dave:

Have you actually used the product?

William Miller
Miller Solar.com
805-438-5600
www.millersolar.com


On Tue, May 14, 2024 at 5:38 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches
 wrote:

> Huge mistake to me to use high voltage battery.  I am biased for offgrid.
>
>
>
> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
> "we go where powerlines don't"
><http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/>https://offgridsolar1.com/ 
> <https://offgridsolar1.com/>  <http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/>
> e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net 
> text 209 813 0060*
>
>
> On 2024-05-14 5:28 pm, Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches wrote:
>
> Hello Wrenches,
>
> I am looking closely at offering the Fortress Avalon system.  I would like
> to hear from anyone that has installed, commissioned and seen them work in
> the field. Pros and cons, all of your thoughts are appreciated.
>
> Thanks!
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Bootstrapping and AC Coupled Sunny Island

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Jay:

I am considering ditching the Sunny Boys and installing 2 Outback FM100s.
It seems to me this might solve a few problems:

1. The cc should voltage clamp and prevent over voltage when the batteries
go higher Z.
2. The CCs should start up at lower voltages as soon as the sun comes out.
3. One of the FM 100s could be configured to drive an AGS relay.
4. The operation would be voltage dependent, not SOC dependent.

My concern is the shallow voltage/charge curve. Can I set this system fine
enough to work reliably?

Has anyone used Outback charge controllers with lithium batteries?  Any
advice?


William Miller
Miller Solar.com
805-438-5600
www.millersolar.com


On Wed, May 8, 2024 at 8:30 AM jay  wrote:

> Hi William,
>
> Since the SOC isn’t being reliable maybe due to not charging correctly?
>
> I would recommend going to volts for the relay driver.  Thats why I
> suggested the tristar with RD-1.
> Because really volts at full is the most accurate.
> Not knowing how many PV inputs you could do a cascade.
>
>
> jay
>
> On May 8, 2024, at 9:00 AM, William Miller 
> wrote:
>
> Jay:
>
> Thank you for taking the time.
>
> We are doing just what you suggest as an interim solution.
>
> The shortcoming of this work-around is that the highest setting for this
> relay function is 90% SOC. This may not be high enough to recalibrate the
> BMS units. And again, relying on SOC to drive operational decisions becomes
> problematic when one can’t rely on the accuracy of the SOC value.
>
>
> William Miller
> Miller Solar.com
> 805-438-5600
> www.millersolar.com
>
>
> On Wed, May 8, 2024 at 7:16 AM jay  wrote:
>
>> A possible fix.
>>
>> You could run a DC relay on the SB PV input that would be voltage
>> triggered to prevent the battery volts from getting higher than you want.
>>
>> The SI has 2 aux relays I think?  Or could do a tristar with RD-1 relay
>> that has 4 channels.
>>
>> Just a thought
>>
>> jay
>>
>> On May 7, 2024, at 11:11 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches <
>> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>
>> Friends:
>>
>>
>> I am still wrestling with problems integrating a Sunny Island / Sunny Boy
>> AC coupled system to a set of 5 E-vault Max battery cabinets.
>>
>>
>> As a refresher, with closed loop comms, the Frequency Shift Power Control
>> system is not working, or not working quickly enough, and when nearing full
>> charge, the voltage can spike up to 66 volts and the SI system shuts down.
>> Fortress has told me in a roundabout way that they agree this is a real
>> problem and they are working on a solution.
>>
>>
>> Another problem has reared its head:  If the E-Vaults do not get charged
>> fully every 5 to 7 days, the BMS units SOC value becomes radically out of
>> calibration.  The E-vault will report a higher SOC than is realistic.  The
>> SI system starts the generator based on SOC and if the SOC is reported as
>> high the generator don’t start.  Sooner rather than later the battery
>> voltage gets too low and the system shuts down.
>>
>>
>> I have been tweaking on the settings like days-since-full-charge to
>> attempt to get this cycle to stop.  No definitive answer yet.
>>
>>
>> Here is the reason I am writing:  Yesterday I could not get the Sunny
>> Islands to start.  The battery voltage was 46 which should have been enough
>> but for some reason they just would not start.  Because of this I could not
>> charge the batteries from generator or from AC coupled solar.  I called SMA
>> but they told me they could not advise because of the non-compatible
>> batteries.  I asked about the emergency charging procedure in the manual
>> but I was told this does not work with lithium batteries.  The process is
>> pretty scary anyway so I was not inclined to try.
>>
>>
>> SMA told me I may need an external 48 volt charging system.  I have heard
>> of this being required in certain scenarios by wrenches.  This would be a
>> huge pain in the ass: ordering one, waiting for it, hooking it up, etc.
>>
>>
>> Here is what I did:  I initiated the Quick Start Configuration mode and
>> told the SI system there was a new battery bank.  I told it the bank was a
>> very small VRLA battery.   The SI system accepted the 46 volts, started up
>> and allowed a generator charge.  After an hour or so we reprogrammed the
>> system for lithium and problem resolved, at least for now.
>>
>>
>> Hopefully this trick may help one of you some day.  If it does, it was
>> worth my time typing it out.
>>
>>
>> William
&g

Re: [RE-wrenches] Bootstrapping and AC Coupled Sunny Island

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Jay:

Thank you for taking the time.

We are doing just what you suggest as an interim solution.

The shortcoming of this work-around is that the highest setting for this
relay function is 90% SOC. This may not be high enough to recalibrate the
BMS units. And again, relying on SOC to drive operational decisions becomes
problematic when one can’t rely on the accuracy of the SOC value.


William Miller
Miller Solar.com
805-438-5600
www.millersolar.com


On Wed, May 8, 2024 at 7:16 AM jay  wrote:

> A possible fix.
>
> You could run a DC relay on the SB PV input that would be voltage
> triggered to prevent the battery volts from getting higher than you want.
>
> The SI has 2 aux relays I think?  Or could do a tristar with RD-1 relay
> that has 4 channels.
>
> Just a thought
>
> jay
>
> On May 7, 2024, at 11:11 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
> Friends:
>
>
> I am still wrestling with problems integrating a Sunny Island / Sunny Boy
> AC coupled system to a set of 5 E-vault Max battery cabinets.
>
>
> As a refresher, with closed loop comms, the Frequency Shift Power Control
> system is not working, or not working quickly enough, and when nearing full
> charge, the voltage can spike up to 66 volts and the SI system shuts down.
> Fortress has told me in a roundabout way that they agree this is a real
> problem and they are working on a solution.
>
>
> Another problem has reared its head:  If the E-Vaults do not get charged
> fully every 5 to 7 days, the BMS units SOC value becomes radically out of
> calibration.  The E-vault will report a higher SOC than is realistic.  The
> SI system starts the generator based on SOC and if the SOC is reported as
> high the generator don’t start.  Sooner rather than later the battery
> voltage gets too low and the system shuts down.
>
>
> I have been tweaking on the settings like days-since-full-charge to
> attempt to get this cycle to stop.  No definitive answer yet.
>
>
> Here is the reason I am writing:  Yesterday I could not get the Sunny
> Islands to start.  The battery voltage was 46 which should have been enough
> but for some reason they just would not start.  Because of this I could not
> charge the batteries from generator or from AC coupled solar.  I called SMA
> but they told me they could not advise because of the non-compatible
> batteries.  I asked about the emergency charging procedure in the manual
> but I was told this does not work with lithium batteries.  The process is
> pretty scary anyway so I was not inclined to try.
>
>
> SMA told me I may need an external 48 volt charging system.  I have heard
> of this being required in certain scenarios by wrenches.  This would be a
> huge pain in the ass: ordering one, waiting for it, hooking it up, etc.
>
>
> Here is what I did:  I initiated the Quick Start Configuration mode and
> told the SI system there was a new battery bank.  I told it the bank was a
> very small VRLA battery.   The SI system accepted the 46 volts, started up
> and allowed a generator charge.  After an hour or so we reprogrammed the
> system for lithium and problem resolved, at least for now.
>
>
> Hopefully this trick may help one of you some day.  If it does, it was
> worth my time typing it out.
>
>
> William
>
>
> Miller Solar
> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
> 805-438-5600
> www.millersolar.com
> CA Lic. 773985
>
>
>
>
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[RE-wrenches] Bootstrapping and AC Coupled Sunny Island

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Friends:



I am still wrestling with problems integrating a Sunny Island / Sunny Boy
AC coupled system to a set of 5 E-vault Max battery cabinets.



As a refresher, with closed loop comms, the Frequency Shift Power Control
system is not working, or not working quickly enough, and when nearing full
charge, the voltage can spike up to 66 volts and the SI system shuts down.
Fortress has told me in a roundabout way that they agree this is a real
problem and they are working on a solution.



Another problem has reared its head:  If the E-Vaults do not get charged
fully every 5 to 7 days, the BMS units SOC value becomes radically out of
calibration.  The E-vault will report a higher SOC than is realistic.  The
SI system starts the generator based on SOC and if the SOC is reported as
high the generator don’t start.  Sooner rather than later the battery
voltage gets too low and the system shuts down.



I have been tweaking on the settings like days-since-full-charge to attempt
to get this cycle to stop.  No definitive answer yet.



Here is the reason I am writing:  Yesterday I could not get the Sunny
Islands to start.  The battery voltage was 46 which should have been enough
but for some reason they just would not start.  Because of this I could not
charge the batteries from generator or from AC coupled solar.  I called SMA
but they told me they could not advise because of the non-compatible
batteries.  I asked about the emergency charging procedure in the manual
but I was told this does not work with lithium batteries.  The process is
pretty scary anyway so I was not inclined to try.



SMA told me I may need an external 48 volt charging system.  I have heard
of this being required in certain scenarios by wrenches.  This would be a
huge pain in the ass: ordering one, waiting for it, hooking it up, etc.



Here is what I did:  I initiated the Quick Start Configuration mode and
told the SI system there was a new battery bank.  I told it the bank was a
very small VRLA battery.   The SI system accepted the 46 volts, started up
and allowed a generator charge.  After an hour or so we reprogrammed the
system for lithium and problem resolved, at least for now.



Hopefully this trick may help one of you some day.  If it does, it was
worth my time typing it out.



William



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985
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Re: [RE-wrenches] PWM Controllers in parallel

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Andrew:



I see no problem paralleling the Charge Controller outputs but I would not
parallel the inputs.  With parallel inputs, unless there is protection to
prevent excessive current, there is a risk that one CC will take over and
try to regulate the entire array.



I suggest you divide up the panels to create one appropriately sized
discrete array into each CC.  You can parallel two strings of panels
without OCPD.



William



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985





*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
Behalf Of *Andrew Perkins via RE-wrenches
*Sent:* Tuesday, May 7, 2024 9:24 AM
*To:* Re Wrenches
*Cc:* Andrew Perkins
*Subject:* [RE-wrenches] PWM Controllers in parallel



Hello Wrenches,

I have a client who has a large 2000 watt 12v array
that he said used to be hooked into an internal solar charger on his old
trace. Never seen a trace with one of those in it but he claims it could do
200a. This internal charger has now died and needs a replacement. He is
refusing to rewire his panels into a new configuration and their aren't
many options for him out there. I did get him a Coleman Aire 400a Charge
controller but it is more of a load controller and wants to be able to
properly absorb is batteries off the sun. He currently has a c60 running
only part of the array and now he is asking about running another c60 in
parallel. Not quite sure if this would work or not but my gut feeling says
no and there will be problems.



If anyone knows of any controllers that would fit that or if running those
in parallel works your advice would be greatly appreciated.



Andrew Perkins

Greenwired

P: 707-923-2001 ext. 100

1150 #1 Evergreen Rd

Redway, CA 95560

www.greenwired.com
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Large transformer losses

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Should be easy enough to look up on the manufacturer’s website.

William Miller
Miller Solar.com
805-438-5600
www.millersolar.com


On Fri, Apr 26, 2024 at 3:54 PM Jay via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Hi all.
>
> Anyone know what the tare loss and efficiency is of a 75 kw transformer?
> And it would be run mostly at 1-10kw max.
>
> This one specifically.
> hammond SG3L0075PE
>
> I’m just curious about it. The situation is 240vac grid at the street,
> 600’ to the house 400 amps.
>
>
> Why 400 amps on a house with propane heat, cooking, water heater, dryer
> and no AC.
> I don’t know.
>
> Thanks
> Jay
>
>
>
> ___
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[RE-wrenches] Converting from transformer to transformerless

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Friends:

I researched this and got no clear answer:

If I were to replace an old Sunny Boy transformer inverter with a modern
transformerless inverter, what are the implications?

I know I need PV rated or conduited feeders.

Is PID an issue?

Should I disable arc fault as a legacy entitlement or is arc fault even
more important with older PV?

Thanks in advance.

William Miller
Miller Solar.com
805-438-5600
www.millersolar.com
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Re: [RE-wrenches] PV/Charge Controller Troubleshoot Help

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

If the fan fails would there be an error message?  As always, I looked this
up before posting.  The manual is not clear on the matter.

William

Miller Solar
17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
805-438-5600
www.millersolar.com
CA Lic. 773985


-Original Message-
From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On
Behalf Of MDElectricSolar via RE-wrenches
Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2024 6:58 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Cc: MDElectricSolar
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] PV/Charge Controller Troubleshoot Help

It may be the fan. I had an FM 80 where the fan went bad that caused very
limited solar production throughout the day.

Michael D Nelson
MD Electric & Solar, Inc.
707-684-0064 mobile
707-884-1862 office
www.mdelectricsolar.com
www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar


> On Apr 23, 2024, at 6:54 AM, jay via RE-wrenches
>  wrote:
>
> HI Jim,
>
> The CC is sure suspect.
> You didn’t mention what the battery voltage is.
> Those CC have a hard PV watt input limit.
>
> You can try and set it back to factory default and then reprogram,
> sometimes that works.
>
> I don’t use the FM-60, but always the FM-80 because of the fan
> replacement.  the 80 takes 3 minutes, the 60 takes 2 hours.
>
> jay
>
>> On Apr 23, 2024, at 6:00 AM, Jim Gowdy via RE-wrenches
>>  wrote:
>>
>> I'm troubleshooting the solar aspect of a small offgrid 120v outback
>> system and need some opinions.  The customer was complaining that the
>> generator was running too much so I went out to their property and
>> investigated.  The solar array consists of 16 total panels (4 strings of
>> 4).  At the combiner box, I took the voltage and amperage reading of each
>> string and found the following..BREAKER 1 (85VDC/8.87A) BREAKER 2
>> (84.5VDC/8.9A) BREAKER 3 (.03VDC/0A) BREAKER 4(85VDC/8.89A).  Breaker 3
>> string was not producing and so I did a fix and then read
>> (87.1VDC/8.43A).  After reviewing the online monitor since that fix from
>> a few days prior I'm realizing that the first day after had 4.5KWH
>> production, second day had 0.7KWH production, and yesterday had 0.3KWH
>> production.sun has been out without clouds.  The 60A Outback charge
>> controller shows there is PV voltage, but noticed it was in "silent mode"
>> a good amount of time.  Charge controller is old, but all the other
>> equipment was updated about a year and a half ago.  I was wondering if
>> there is a way to diagnose if the charge controller is bad without just
>> replacing it and what does it mean when it's in "silent mode".  Another
>> side note is that their generator threw an AGS fault code on the MATE3
>> controller and found that the generator has problems so I ended up
>> turning from "auto" to "off"
>> --
>> Jim with Gowdy Electric
>> Cambria, Ca 93428
>> business  805 927 2630
>> cell  805 975 5279
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T

Re: [RE-wrenches] midnite new inverter

[William Bryce via RE-wrenches]

Maverick

The new inverter is NOT a rebrand. The Inverter is mainly designed  by
Midnite Solar, and is manufactured at a Tier 1 facility in Asia.
It is a MNS Prodcut through and Through, just missing the cool cabinet and
black paint.


On Wed, Apr 10, 2024 at 1:06 PM Maverick Brown 
wrote:

> Logan
>
> Is MidNite making the AIO or is it rebrand like the other guys?
>
> If MidNite is actually making it, that adds a whole new level of interest.
> MidNite makes great products already. This would be a game changer.
>
>
> Thank you,
>
> Maverick
>
> Maverick Brown
> Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006
> Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc.
>  • Solar Commander Remote Power
>  • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection
> maver...@mavericksolar.com
> 512-460-9825
>
>
>
> On Apr 10, 2024, at 10:54 AM, William Bryce via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
> 
> All
>
> As a Beta tester and being a part of the development of the MNS All in
> One,  MNS is working to ensure that the current limitations from the use
> of  LA batteries will be addressed and supported.
>
> MNS is addressing the concerns of using an AOI inverter because failure
> will require the R of the unit. This AIO is designed to be
> completely field serviceable and MNS will stock the boards and  will
> provide the technical help to get the system back up and running in the
> field.
>
> Thanks
>
> Logan
>
> On Wed, Apr 10, 2024 at 11:01 AM Steve Higgins via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
>> Good Morning Wrenches...
>>
>> When it comes to lead batteries, just be cautious of the all-in-ones and
>> some of the hybrid inverters.
>>
>> Most of these inverters were not designed for Lead batteries and will
>> struggle to charge them, resulting in sulfation (undercharging) issues.
>> Eventually, this will lead to swelling of VRLA or excessive gassing on
>> Flooded Batteries. Unfortunately, many of the "Hybrid" or "All-in-One"
>> inverters released in the past 5-8 years are tailored more to
>> lithium-chemistry batteries. I can't tell you how many battery banks have
>> been cooked over the past couple of years due to the inability to control
>> charging settings.
>>
>> If you can't control the Bulk/Absorb Voltage and Time, as well as the end
>> amps termination setpoints, you will generally struggle to get and keep a
>> Lead-Acid battery charged regardless of the battery you are using.
>>
>> I looked at the Midnite site and I don't see a user manual yet,  once
>> it's posted I'll take a look and see if it's compatible for Rolls
>> Batteries,  I'm pretty sure it will as Midnight has been asking battery
>> charging questions the last couple of years.
>>
>>
>>
>> <http://www.rollsbattery.com> <http://www.rollsbattery.com>
>> <http://www.rollsbattery.com> <http://www.rollsbattery.com>
>> <http://www.rollsbattery.com> <http://www.rollsbattery.com>
>> <http://www.rollsbattery.com> <http://www.rollsbattery.com>
>> <http://www.rollsbattery.com> <http://www.rollsbattery.com>
>> <http://www.rollsbattery.com> <http://www.rollsbattery.com>
>> <http://www.rollsbattery.com> <http://www.rollsbattery.com>
>> <http://www.rollsbattery.com> <http://www.rollsbattery.com>
>> <http://www.rollsbattery.com> <http://www.rollsbattery.com>
>> Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager
>> t +1.902.597.4020  m +1.206.790.5840
>> f +1.902.597.8447  e st...@surrette.com
>> <http://www.facebook.com/RollsBattery>
>> <https://www.youtube.com/user/RollsBattery>
>> <https://www.youtube.com/RollsBatteryEngineering>
>> <https://www.youtube.com/RollsBatteryEngineering>
>> <https://www.youtube.com/RollsBatteryEngineering>
>> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/rolls-battery-engineering>
>> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/rolls-battery-engineering>
>> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/rolls-battery-engineering>
>> <http://www.instagram.com/RollsBattery>
>> <http://www.instagram.com/RollsBattery>
>> --
>> CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for
>> the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged
>> material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the
>> taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If
>> you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or
>> dest

Re: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid array far, far from the batteries

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Chris:

The Outback 100 amp controller operating at a max of 300 VDC might be a
good solution.

Pondering this further:  I suppose a 600 volt charge controller would be
better for voltage drop but I suspect one string of 12 would exceed 600
VDC. If true then strings of 6 would exceed 300vdc. If using a FM100 the
fall back is strings of 4. Strings of 6 into a 600 volt charge controller
is only marginally superior for voltage drop over strings of 4.

Using the nameplate wattage you are just over 100 amps at 48VDC satisfying
the power criteria.

An added benefit is that all of the electronics will communicate.

Recent pricing of the 100 seems to indicate the price has dropped
significantly making this a good value.

It is possible you could combine at the battery location and pull multiple
smaller conductors. You’d still need a disconnecting means at the array.
Run the numbers.

https://millersolar.com/MillerSolar/Resources/Voltage_Drop.xls

William Miller
Miller Solar.com
805-438-5600
www.millersolar.com


On Wed, Apr 10, 2024 at 9:41 AM Chris Daum via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

>
>
> The crazy things folks do.  Dear people:  We have a fellow who has an
> initial off-grid array with a Radian 8048A (and related e-panel, etc.) and
> six 410W Canadian solar modules.  He has six more of the same modules…but
> the ideal site for solar is 900 feet away from his batteries and the rest
> of the system.  Yeah, good planning, right?
>
>
>
> In terms of getting AC power out of his ‘new’ 6X array, Enphase won’t work
> since he doesn’t have an Enphase system.  We’re looking at perhaps SMA or
> Chilcon (so the size of the wire run won’t be so astronomical).  Any
> suggestions?
>
>
>
> Best,
>
>
>
> Chris Daum
>
> Oasis Montana Inc.
>
> 406-777-4309 or 4321
>
> 406-777-4309 fax
>
> www.oasismontana.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] midnite new inverter

[William Bryce via RE-wrenches]

All

As a Beta tester and being a part of the development of the MNS All in
One,  MNS is working to ensure that the current limitations from the use
of  LA batteries will be addressed and supported.

MNS is addressing the concerns of using an AOI inverter because failure
will require the R of the unit. This AIO is designed to be
completely field serviceable and MNS will stock the boards and  will
provide the technical help to get the system back up and running in the
field.

Thanks

Logan

On Wed, Apr 10, 2024 at 11:01 AM Steve Higgins via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Good Morning Wrenches...
>
> When it comes to lead batteries, just be cautious of the all-in-ones and
> some of the hybrid inverters.
>
> Most of these inverters were not designed for Lead batteries and will
> struggle to charge them, resulting in sulfation (undercharging) issues.
> Eventually, this will lead to swelling of VRLA or excessive gassing on
> Flooded Batteries. Unfortunately, many of the "Hybrid" or "All-in-One"
> inverters released in the past 5-8 years are tailored more to
> lithium-chemistry batteries. I can't tell you how many battery banks have
> been cooked over the past couple of years due to the inability to control
> charging settings.
>
> If you can't control the Bulk/Absorb Voltage and Time, as well as the end
> amps termination setpoints, you will generally struggle to get and keep a
> Lead-Acid battery charged regardless of the battery you are using.
>
> I looked at the Midnite site and I don't see a user manual yet,  once it's
> posted I'll take a look and see if it's compatible for Rolls Batteries,
> I'm pretty sure it will as Midnight has been asking battery charging
> questions the last couple of years.
>
>
>
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
> Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager
> t +1.902.597.4020  m +1.206.790.5840
> f +1.902.597.8447  e st...@surrette.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --
> CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for
> the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged
> material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the
> taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If
> you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or
> destroy this message and all copies.
> --
>
>
> On Wed, Apr 10, 2024 at 7:29 AM jay via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
>> Can you explain what changes the eg4 18 inverter has vs the Envy as to LA
>> programming?
>>
>> To me the Envy has a big advantage due to it having AGS warm up/cool down
>> that the EG4 does not.
>>
>> Jay
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Apr 10, 2024, at 7:49 AM, Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches <
>> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>
>> John,
>> If you are thinking of pairing the Envy with lead-acid batteries, I would
>> strongly suggest not doing it. Even though Fortress sales advertises the
>> Envy to be compatible with lead-acid, after trying it in my off-grid home,
>> I would emphatically say that it is not. The programming is inadequate, to
>> put it kindly. And their support really doesn't have a clue about lead-acid
>> - Fortress support literally said that they don't recommend pairing the
>> Envy with l-a. However, I don't have an opinion about how it does with
>> closed loop Li batteries.
>> I did recently install an EG4 18k system, off-grid, with the client's
>> knowledge that this was a bit of an experiment for me. Both the Envy and
>> the EG4 are made by LuxPower and have been, to date, physically and
>> programmatically almost identical. I had stayed away from EG4 since it
>> seemed to be primarily aimed at the DIY market. However, the 18k appears to
>> be a serious contender so far, although this installation is a fairly low
>> stress situation. I've been fairly impressed with the system.   While this
>> 18k is 

Re: [RE-wrenches] midnite new inverter

[William Bryce via RE-wrenches]

John

The New MidNite AIO is completely field serviceable. If you have an
issue (say lightning) MNS will stock all the needed boards and everything
can be replaced on the wall.
On a scale of one to ten, it's a 7 with 10 being the hardest (lots of
screws). Only tools needed are an 11in One, pliers, and some hex wrenches.

I am a Beta tester.

Logan




On Wed, Apr 10, 2024 at 9:49 AM Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> John,
> If you are thinking of pairing the Envy with lead-acid batteries, I would
> strongly suggest not doing it. Even though Fortress sales advertises the
> Envy to be compatible with lead-acid, after trying it in my off-grid home,
> I would emphatically say that it is not. The programming is inadequate, to
> put it kindly. And their support really doesn't have a clue about lead-acid
> - Fortress support literally said that they don't recommend pairing the
> Envy with l-a. However, I don't have an opinion about how it does with
> closed loop Li batteries.
> I did recently install an EG4 18k system, off-grid, with the client's
> knowledge that this was a bit of an experiment for me. Both the Envy and
> the EG4 are made by LuxPower and have been, to date, physically and
> programmatically almost identical. I had stayed away from EG4 since it
> seemed to be primarily aimed at the DIY market. However, the 18k appears to
> be a serious contender so far, although this installation is a fairly low
> stress situation. I've been fairly impressed with the system.   While this
> 18k is paired with EG4 Lithium batteries, EG4 has been making adjustments
> to the firmware to make it much more friendly to lead-acid. If you decide
> to go this route, check with EG4 (installer support - ask for Jarrett or
> Colt) to see where they are at with upgrading the firmware.
> I am also eagerly awaiting Midnite's AIO entry...
>
> Howie
>
>
> On Wed, Apr 10, 2024 at 9:02 AM John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
>> Time will tell where the failure modes are.   I still don't like all the
>> eggs in one basket. Do you have to send the units back for repair?  Had
>> enough of that with Trace SW series inverters..
>> For off grid, I'll stick to the tried and true for now.  For Grid tie it
>> is just a financial hit.  For off-grid power loss it is more important
>> to deal with right away..
>>
>> I am going to try a Fortress Envy at my off grid home but will keep my
>> Outback field repairable VFXR wired in just in case. I had a massive
>> lightning strike between my house and a guest cabin 1/4 mile away and I
>> lost power from my Fortress Eflex battery at the cabin and my Outback
>> inverter at my house.  I replaced the control board on my inverter ( I
>> always keep one in reserve as it is usually the only board failure due to
>> lightning)  and was back on line in 1/2 hour and Fortress rushed me a new
>> BMS board for the E-flex and a day later and a half hour swap had it back
>> in service,  Now it is a different story with 2 Simpliphi batteries I have
>> from a customer that failed.  I have to ship them to California to have
>> them evaluated to see if we had damaged them by misuse.  Lots of expense
>> and time lost.
>>
>>
>>
>> John Blittersdorf
>> CV Wind Service / Off Grid Vermont
>> 802-770-8625
>>
>> On Tue, Apr 9, 2024 at 11:43 PM Scot Arey via RE-wrenches <
>> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Wow, are we in the golden age of inverter/chargers? If it had 200-a.p
>>> pass thru it would be near perfect.
>>>
>>> Begs the question: are stand alone charge controllers becoming a
>>> historical artifact?
>>>
>>> Howard "Scot" Arey
>>> Owner, Solar CenTex
>>> 254-300-1228
>>> ___
>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>>>
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>>>
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>> 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback Optics RE and Starlink

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Dan:



There was a period of time when the Mate3 or 3s would lock up pretty
regularly.  We built a system that could disconnect the Mate from the hub
via a din rail mount RJ-45 relay.  This link
<https://millersolar.com/MillerSolar/Portfolio/Commercial/Cal_Trans/Remote/Remote_Control.html>
may provide some more info.  If you want more details let me know.



William



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985





*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
Behalf Of *Dan Fink via RE-wrenches
*Sent:* Friday, April 5, 2024 12:07 PM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Cc:* Dan Fink
*Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Outback Optics RE and Starlink



Esteemed Wrenches - One of my Optics sites started acting up last summer,
randomly dropping its connection, and requiring a manual Mate reboot
(unplug Mate connection to Hub, wait 30 seconds and replug - but a 4-hour
drive), after which the Mate3S would be back online in under a minute. It
was set to reboot every 24 hours as per advice from Outback years ago, and
it all worked fine for years.



We upgraded the Mate3S firmware last fall, and turned the Mate auto-reboot
off, no help. Rebooted manually again, set auto reboot to 24 hours again,
then to 4 hours. No help.



The site is rural and offgrid, but has Centurylink DSL that has been
getting slower with more dropouts every month, and everyone in town is
complaining about it.



So we installed Starlink for the client, the wired router is right next to
the Mate. . It's blazing fast, but we are having the same issue of random
disconnects, requiring manual reboot . The little tab on the Mate3S RJ-45
cable is wearing out...



Outback says "This is a known issue with Starlink customers and has
engineers for both our companies working on a joint solution on how to
remedy this connectivity issue."



I'm going to install a load-balancing failback router this weekend, so
hopefully during the times the Starlink gets too wonky, hopefully it fails
back to the DSL and the Mate stays connected...



Has anyone else here dealt with Optics RE and Starlink? Any tips or tricks?

 I have monitoring systems in the field running on Starlink from Magnum,
Midnite, and Schnieder, and none of them had any trouble with the Starlink
internet connection. Odd that only Outback is causing problems.



I appreciate any and all advice!



Dan Fink

Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC

IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation

NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector

NABCEP PV Associate

d anbo...@gmail.com

970-672-4342
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Plaques

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Lou:

I tried this with my little, cheap shapeoko CNC router. It can be done but
it kind of became more of a hobby than I wanted.  Your bed has to be dead
nuts flat, much more so than through-cutting parts (like interlock plates,
for example).  Holding the material tight to the bed really requires a
vacuum bed. You need the software and a spare computer you don’t mind
getting dusty. I spoiled three for every one successfully completed. Maybe
I gave up too soon. Maybe I had the wrong approach.

I suppose you-tube might give you some insight. Have you checked there?
Sorry my experience is so limited.

PV Labels is so darn quick and good and reasonable I could not justify
carrying on with making my own.

William Miller
Miller Solar.com
805-438-5600
www.millersolar.com


On Sat, Mar 30, 2024 at 1:52 PM Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> I use a thermal printer with labels that are UV rated. (duralabel). The
> problem with engraved is if you make a mistake and have to have it redone.
> The labels from my printer are best placed out of the sun although UV
> rated.  I do see fading after 8 or 10 years.
> On 3/30/2024 4:33 PM, Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches wrote:
>
> Good question I’m curious on this also, I have to say the ones that I’ve
> had made are not inexpensive
> Dana Orzel
> C: 208.721.7003
> E- d...@solarwork.com
>
> On Mar 30, 2024, at 12:58 PM, Lou Russo via RE-wrenches
>  
> wrote:
>
> 
> Aloha Wrenches,
>
> Anyone out there making their own engraved plaques and labels?
> If so, is it worth it and what machine are you using?
> Thanks for your time and insight, it is always appreciated.
>
> Aloha,
>
> Lou Russo
> Owner
> l...@spreesolarsystems.com
> 808 345 6762
> Spree Solar Systems LLC
> CT-34322
>
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> --
>Christopher Warfel
>   ENTECH Engineering Inc.
>PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807
>   401-477-5773
> [image: EE Logo] <https://entech-engineering.com/Home/default.php>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Minimum bus size, new requirements

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Lloyd:



Thank you so much for forwarding these links.  This should have been on my
radar.  You saved me some time searching this out.  For those who may not
be totally up-to-speed on these regulations, they make some interesting
reading.



Some will undoubtedly call them burdensome, but it in my opinion many of
the concepts are well-founded.  For example, I have been known to whine
when roof area is not available for solar panels.  This is addressed.  I
have also been pretty pathetic when breaker space is not available for
back-feed,  This too is addressed.  Segregated, essential load panel?  It’s
in there.  There are a lot of provisions that will make it easier to do our
jobs.



Reading through this mandate may raise hackles for some who do not like to
be told how to do their jobs.  We all know it is difficult to adapt to new
regulations.  Having just skimmed them, I like what is being laid down.



William



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985





*From:* Lloyd Hoffstatter [mailto:ll...@sunstruckconsulting.com]
*Sent:* Thursday, March 28, 2024 11:34 AM
*To:* will...@millersolar.com; RE-wrenches
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Minimum bus size, new requirements



William,



Here is the CA Energy Code with the upsized busbar requirements under solar
/ ess readiness:



https://title24energyreports.com/articles/basic-facts-changes-2022-energy-code.php



Best regard

Title 24: 2022 Energy Code - Basic Facts | CompuCalc
<https://title24energyreports.com/articles/basic-facts-changes-2022-energy-code.php>

Summary of changes and updates in the 2022 California Energy Code

title24energyreports.com





Lloyd Hoffstatter, M.S. Applied Solar Energy

Inaugural NABCEP Cetrified PV Installer Emeritus

Director, Sunstruck Consulting

ll...@sunstruckconsulting.com

845-657-8132 (office)

914-844-3404 (cell)


--

*From:* RE-wrenches  on behalf
of William Miller via RE-wrenches 
*Sent:* Thursday, March 28, 2024 1:00 PM
*To:* RE-wrenches 
*Cc:* William Miller 
*Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Minimum bus size, new requirements



Friends:



A local building official recently wrote this:



This is to comply with the new codes (California Energy Code and the Nation
Electric Code) that require this minimum buss rating regardless of the
service size or main size.



The new code allegedly requires a minimum bus rating of 225A in all new
services of 200A rating or less.



Do any of you know what new code this might be?



Thanks in advance for your time.



William



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.millersolar.com_=DwMFaQ=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=p2tHyHEAjVe2zSh4C_236V4KkHnn0z0ynUvWz0mobds=9uejohzp8xlaOjgzFRzK5pSkQX5Jtrq-KM0zg-kn9sGvQF-Ezmo9hA2K0hbNA1ns=7RIp61FIGVkUrnLeJuaaLlwwPwqGeMEQXVgB04GNECk=>

CA Lic. 773985
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[RE-wrenches] Minimum bus size, new requirements

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Friends:



A local building official recently wrote this:



This is to comply with the new codes (California Energy Code and the Nation
Electric Code) that require this minimum buss rating regardless of the
service size or main size.



The new code allegedly requires a minimum bus rating of 225A in all new
services of 200A rating or less.



Do any of you know what new code this might be?



Thanks in advance for your time.



William



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985
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[RE-wrenches] Thread relevancy.

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Jason:



I spent a lot of time trying to help you with your design.  If you take my
advice I think you will save a lot of time and money.  From the pushback I
gather you are not convinced.  So be it--others may benefit from the
discussion.



I commented on Kirk Herander’s link by thoughtfully evaluating three
realistic options for integrating multiple inverters with bypass
capabilities.  I did this in hopes someone would find the information
helpful.  I have long ago gone through the thought process and made my
choice so I am not doing it for myself.



The $26 amazon product will not be useful at all in this case because it
interlocks only two breakers.  It looks like you are comparing the $26
solution as equivalent to the $350-450 custom fabricated interlock or the
home-made option.  It is not and is therefore not relevant.  Also, it is
pretty common knowledge that labor practices at scamazon are atrocious
<https://www.reuters.com/world/us/amazon-accused-violating-us-labor-law-after-union-supporters-arrests-2022-02-25/>.
I encourage my fellow wrenches to find alternative, more ethical vendors.



I get that these discussions can branch out, and that can be useful in its
own way, but if it does and the poster that branches out does not indicate
the subject has shifted, the thread does not track.  The reader is left
wondering how an off-subject response applies to the question.



I’d like to respectfully request that my fellow wrenches read the questions
posted here carefully and try to answer the question at hand in order to
keep the discussions as useful and succinct as possible.  Good sentence and
paragraph structure helps readability.  I’d also like to point out that
anecdotal information that does not have factual foundation is not all that
helpful.



Respectfully,



William Miller

Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985





*From:* Jason Szumlanski [mailto:ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com]
*Sent:* Wednesday, March 27, 2024 5:28 PM
*To:* William Miller
*Cc:* Kirk Herander; RE-wrenches
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output



Sorry. $26.



https://www.amazon.com/Eaton-BR-150-200-Amp/dp/B0CQLLMJSR/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.nBkEJ_I45rWhjLizp-sNRe96GAusMPeLrV_hHB_AHqS-PYYUBpCOZW61zhW7w9Nr6aw3jveD5Yy-vhQwntrpy2F7qtyGTPjT-qoOCEUWYciI5TZyidNca2hFolpBVpY5eaf-62n1oO-EhsWNpWyyvQLlZt_de_cSMKtD5sQCqEr2lndRphXKRpNpai1yAp1alK7DIy_lBCipNBFwtVGWVuiFC0ZI_x1zG7lboOVqJU6nFZqgOvMGbx4R_qo53GtrQ5QPRtEL_cEg_rwzK6ERkIyQ6RL_ofS8Dj4f0h2oIyE.Q4CtcWkC33vhyQh4SPTTRHX16WcdaKhfiHVP-oHJtkw_tag=se=405275792334=t=9053055=g=e=1514810600998942803=kwd-847960718866=7662_9903424=ch+generator+interlock+kit=1711585215=8-1-spons_csd=d2lkZ2V0TmFtZT1zcF9hdGY=1



This fits a 200A CH panel that could be used as a combiner panel with the
interlocked breaker as a bypass.



I was commenting generally about interlock kits for existing panels. I
can't remember the last time I paid over $70 for any existing panel for an
interlock kit when a customer wanted a generator inlet installed (unrelated
to solar). Maybe it's different elsewhere, but every panel installed in my
area since the 70s has an interlock kit somewhere on the Interwebs for
cheap.





Jason





On Wed, Mar 27, 2024, 8:13 PM William Miller 
wrote:

Jason:



Out of respect for everyone’s time on this forum, I try to do some research
before I post.  Please post a link to these $35 interlocks for 5 breakers
(4 inverter breakers against 1 bypass breaker).   Otherwise we are talking
apples against oranges.



Thank you.



William



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985





*From:* Jason Szumlanski [mailto:ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com]
*Sent:* Wednesday, March 27, 2024 3:52 PM
*To:* Kirk Herander
*Cc:* William Miller; RE-wrenches
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output



I have purchased interlocks for older CH panels and others for around $35
on other sites. If you look around you can get interlocks for all kinds of
legacy panels.



Jason





On Wed, Mar 27, 2024, 6:47 PM Kirk Herander  wrote:

I agree. That website is way overpriced on their interlocks. I’ve looked at
the one you made from your photos and it looks good. I guess I’ll have to
ask you to make me one someday if I am ever in need

*Kirk Herander / kirkh@vermont.solar *

*Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC*

*Celebrating our 33st Anniversary 1991-2024!!*

dba Vermont Solar Engineering

802.559.1225





On Wed, Mar 27, 2024 at 5:33 PM William Miller 
wrote:

Kirk:



Very interesting.  Thank you for that link.



Let’s consider the options:



·The interlocks from this supplier can be a bit pricey ($350-450
for what we are talking about).



·If you want to make your own interlock the materials are less than
$10.  The hardest part is cutting clean slots in aluminum plate.  I use a
CNC router.  Before I acquired the CNC I made

[RE-wrenches] Good tech support

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Friends:



Some of you may remember the problems I am having integrating a set of
Fortress batteries with an off-grid Sunny Island/Sunny Boy ac-coupled
system.  If not, here
<https://millersolar.com/MillerSolar/case_studies/36_SIFortress/36_SunnyIslandFortressIntegration.html>
is the case study.



The problem has been in abeyance for the last few months because due to
short days and cloudy weather.  There has not been enough sunshine to cause
a recurrence.  Now that spring has sprung the problem is back.



I did come up with a work-around:  I installed a contactor to disconnect
the Sunny Boys whenever the SOC gets to 90%.  This works but it does waste
some solar capability.



I have been working with Fortress on the issue.  They have been in touch
and have been very generous in offering support and spending time trying to
find a solution.  Most important they have admitted the problem exists.



To me this is very refreshing.  This makes me want to use more Fortress
products and sing their praises.  I think my fellow wrenches would want to
know about this great support when contemplating which battery products to
use, which is the reason for this post.



Below is an excerpt from an email received today from Fortress.



Hi William,



Apologies for the lapse in communication on this subject, we are still
actively working on this case to provide you with a solution.



We have confirmed here in our Lab that the older firmware does not resolve
the issue as you have stated and the engineering and product teams are in
discussions to provide a solution to this battery/inverter compatibility
issue. We will provide updates on a solution as we receive them. I
unfortunately do not have a timeline to provide, but we will have one soon.



Thank you for your patience.



Warm regards,

Galen Gennaria



I will update the case study when new developments occur.



William



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Jason:



Out of respect for everyone’s time on this forum, I try to do some research
before I post.  Please post a link to these $35 interlocks for 5 breakers
(4 inverter breakers against 1 bypass breaker).   Otherwise we are talking
apples against oranges.



Thank you.



William



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985





*From:* Jason Szumlanski [mailto:ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com]
*Sent:* Wednesday, March 27, 2024 3:52 PM
*To:* Kirk Herander
*Cc:* William Miller; RE-wrenches
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output



I have purchased interlocks for older CH panels and others for around $35
on other sites. If you look around you can get interlocks for all kinds of
legacy panels.



Jason





On Wed, Mar 27, 2024, 6:47 PM Kirk Herander  wrote:

I agree. That website is way overpriced on their interlocks. I’ve looked at
the one you made from your photos and it looks good. I guess I’ll have to
ask you to make me one someday if I am ever in need

*Kirk Herander / **kirkh@vermont.solar *

*Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC*

*Celebrating our 33st Anniversary 1991-2024!!*

dba Vermont Solar Engineering

802.559.1225





On Wed, Mar 27, 2024 at 5:33 PM William Miller 
wrote:

Kirk:



Very interesting.  Thank you for that link.



Let’s consider the options:



·The interlocks from this supplier can be a bit pricey ($350-450
for what we are talking about).



·If you want to make your own interlock the materials are less than
$10.  The hardest part is cutting clean slots in aluminum plate.  I use a
CNC router.  Before I acquired the CNC I made a jig for a standard router.
Or drill, jig saw and file.  The notches are easy to mock up in either CAD
format (cardboard or computer) and cut with a band or jig saw.  Your first
one will take an hour or two to fabricate.



·Compare this to a Ronk 7416 at about $1500 (I find the Ronks to be
a bit wonky to use.  Let’s call them Ronky.)  Add to that the space
required and the plumbing and wiring for 400 amps (I think Jason can
specify a 200 A switch).  Plus if you are not combining your inverters in
an existing load center you need another load center for combining. This
can really add up.



With either interlock option, the inverter combining, the interlocked
bypass and output breakers all fit into one load center.



I hope the time we spent on this discussion helps someone out there.
That’s why we do it.



Wm



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985





*From:* Kirk Herander [mailto:kirkh@vermont.solar]
*Sent:* Wednesday, March 27, 2024 12:38 PM
*To:* RE-wrenches; will...@millersolar.com
*Cc:* Jason Szumlanski
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output



www.interlockkit.com - they stock and custom make interlock bypasses
including multiple breakers.



Square D also makes a 400 A panel which excepts either bolt on or snap on
QO breakers.








*Kirk Herander / **kirkh@vermont.solar *

*Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC*

*Celebrating our 33st Anniversary 1991-2024!!*

dba Vermont Solar Engineering

802.559.1225





On Wed, Mar 27, 2024 at 3:15 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

Jason:



Replies below.



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985





*From:* Jason Szumlanski [mailto:ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com]
*Sent:* Wednesday, March 27, 2024 3:12 AM
*To:* will...@millersolar.com
*Cc:* RE-wrenches
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output



William,



Thanks for the information on grid peak shaving. That is what I thought
could be done. The description is a misnomer of sorts (like a lot of things
in Sol-Ark lingo). It's a bit hard to follow and not nearly well
enough documented, particularly with respect to parallel systems.  You are
welcome.  The Sol-Arc manual is not a great manual in any regards.



I follow what you are saying about using the 80A input breakers. The
problem I have is that you must set the generator kW to 36,000 in the
master inverter, not 9,000W in each inverter. The concept of "underrating"
the input breakers theorizes that each inverter will share the generator
pass-through equally. I do not know that to be the case. And what happens
if the three slave inverters have a fault or are turned off? That would
allow the single master to pass through the full generator supply.
Obviously this trips the 80A input breaker and protects the conductors, but
I feel that is a design deficiency when a single inverter is fully capable
of passing through all 150A.  You may be designing for an eventuality that
will never occur:  If the inverters fail then they should be repaired or
replaced.  While awaiting repair the bypass will keep your loads powered at
full capacity.



On top of that, I don't think the 80A output breakers are suffici

Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Kirk:



Very interesting.  Thank you for that link.



Let’s consider the options:



·The interlocks from this supplier can be a bit pricey ($350-450
for what we are talking about).



·If you want to make your own interlock the materials are less than
$10.  The hardest part is cutting clean slots in aluminum plate.  I use a
CNC router.  Before I acquired the CNC I made a jig for a standard router.
Or drill, jig saw and file.  The notches are easy to mock up in either CAD
format (cardboard or computer) and cut with a band or jig saw.  Your first
one will take an hour or two to fabricate.



·Compare this to a Ronk 7416 at about $1500 (I find the Ronks to be
a bit wonky to use.  Let’s call them Ronky.)  Add to that the space
required and the plumbing and wiring for 400 amps (I think Jason can
specify a 200 A switch).  Plus if you are not combining your inverters in
an existing load center you need another load center for combining. This
can really add up.



With either interlock option, the inverter combining, the interlocked
bypass and output breakers all fit into one load center.



I hope the time we spent on this discussion helps someone out there.
That’s why we do it.



Wm



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985





*From:* Kirk Herander [mailto:kirkh@vermont.solar]
*Sent:* Wednesday, March 27, 2024 12:38 PM
*To:* RE-wrenches; will...@millersolar.com
*Cc:* Jason Szumlanski
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output



www.interlockkit.com - they stock and custom make interlock bypasses
including multiple breakers.



Square D also makes a 400 A panel which excepts either bolt on or snap on
QO breakers.










*Kirk Herander / **kirkh@vermont.solar *

*Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC*

*Celebrating our 33st Anniversary 1991-2024!!*

dba Vermont Solar Engineering

802.559.1225





On Wed, Mar 27, 2024 at 3:15 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

Jason:



Replies below.



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985





*From:* Jason Szumlanski [mailto:ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com]
*Sent:* Wednesday, March 27, 2024 3:12 AM
*To:* will...@millersolar.com
*Cc:* RE-wrenches
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output



William,



Thanks for the information on grid peak shaving. That is what I thought
could be done. The description is a misnomer of sorts (like a lot of things
in Sol-Ark lingo). It's a bit hard to follow and not nearly well
enough documented, particularly with respect to parallel systems.  You are
welcome.  The Sol-Arc manual is not a great manual in any regards.



I follow what you are saying about using the 80A input breakers. The
problem I have is that you must set the generator kW to 36,000 in the
master inverter, not 9,000W in each inverter. The concept of "underrating"
the input breakers theorizes that each inverter will share the generator
pass-through equally. I do not know that to be the case. And what happens
if the three slave inverters have a fault or are turned off? That would
allow the single master to pass through the full generator supply.
Obviously this trips the 80A input breaker and protects the conductors, but
I feel that is a design deficiency when a single inverter is fully capable
of passing through all 150A.  You may be designing for an eventuality that
will never occur:  If the inverters fail then they should be repaired or
replaced.  While awaiting repair the bypass will keep your loads powered at
full capacity.



On top of that, I don't think the 80A output breakers are sufficient
because each inverter can peak shave 50A with inverter power from the
batteries. Add that to the theorized balanced 37.5A "grid" input, and you
are at 87.5A of possible throughput.  I am not sure why you are designing
to deliver more than the inverters will produce.  The generator support
function is intended to assist powering loads when the generator is
undersized.  I define that as the generator ampacity being less than that
of the inverter system.  The 36kVA generator is greater in ampacity than 4
Sol-Arc 15s.  You can turn the generator support function down or off in
the Sol-Arc.  I would recommend it be set to off for this project.  (If
there are to be occasional loads that are greater than the inverters can
deliver, like a welder or a car charger, with the plan I suggested you have
a generator-fed panel that can feed those occasional large loads with the
generator running.)



But assuming the 80A input/output concept works, other than a panelboard
with bolt on breakers, what low-cost load center allows you to fasten four
80A backfed breakers? If this is available, I could use a recommendation.
The load centers I am familiar with only have provisions for one fastened
backfed breaker.  I use to specify bolt-on panels for this but I came t

Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Jason:



Replies below.



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985





*From:* Jason Szumlanski [mailto:ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com]
*Sent:* Wednesday, March 27, 2024 3:12 AM
*To:* will...@millersolar.com
*Cc:* RE-wrenches
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output



William,



Thanks for the information on grid peak shaving. That is what I thought
could be done. The description is a misnomer of sorts (like a lot of things
in Sol-Ark lingo). It's a bit hard to follow and not nearly well
enough documented, particularly with respect to parallel systems.  You are
welcome.  The Sol-Arc manual is not a great manual in any regards.



I follow what you are saying about using the 80A input breakers. The
problem I have is that you must set the generator kW to 36,000 in the
master inverter, not 9,000W in each inverter. The concept of "underrating"
the input breakers theorizes that each inverter will share the generator
pass-through equally. I do not know that to be the case. And what happens
if the three slave inverters have a fault or are turned off? That would
allow the single master to pass through the full generator supply.
Obviously this trips the 80A input breaker and protects the conductors, but
I feel that is a design deficiency when a single inverter is fully capable
of passing through all 150A.  You may be designing for an eventuality that
will never occur:  If the inverters fail then they should be repaired or
replaced.  While awaiting repair the bypass will keep your loads powered at
full capacity.



On top of that, I don't think the 80A output breakers are sufficient
because each inverter can peak shave 50A with inverter power from the
batteries. Add that to the theorized balanced 37.5A "grid" input, and you
are at 87.5A of possible throughput.  I am not sure why you are designing
to deliver more than the inverters will produce.  The generator support
function is intended to assist powering loads when the generator is
undersized.  I define that as the generator ampacity being less than that
of the inverter system.  The 36kVA generator is greater in ampacity than 4
Sol-Arc 15s.  You can turn the generator support function down or off in
the Sol-Arc.  I would recommend it be set to off for this project.  (If
there are to be occasional loads that are greater than the inverters can
deliver, like a welder or a car charger, with the plan I suggested you have
a generator-fed panel that can feed those occasional large loads with the
generator running.)



But assuming the 80A input/output concept works, other than a panelboard
with bolt on breakers, what low-cost load center allows you to fasten four
80A backfed breakers? If this is available, I could use a recommendation.
The load centers I am familiar with only have provisions for one fastened
backfed breaker.  I use to specify bolt-on panels for this but I came to
believe this is overkill.  QO breakers are held in place by the panel cover
that overlaps the breakers.  Other breakers are configured so the contact
points for the breaker bus are recessed.  You need to convince your AHJ
that this satisfies the requirement.  Part of the discussion should include
the point that off-grid systems are specialized and people that do not
understand them should not be working on them (or judging them-- is what I
tell inexperienced plan-checkers).



With respect to the bypass, I would usually use a DPDT switch to accomplish
this, Even for 400A bypasses, there seems to be a relatively cost effective
option in the Ronk 7416 (which to date I have not used). I get the concept
for smaller (<=100A) generators that you could use a generator interlock on
an off-the-shelf load center. But they typically only allow a single
backfed 2-pole breaker, whereas something like a Square D QO panel with a
backfed 150A breaker requires 4 spaces and is incompatible with the
interlock device.  Since bypass is an emergency condition, I sometimes
limit my bypass to 100 amps.  If you want full bypass ampacity you can
build an interlock to accommodate any size breaker.  Here
<https://millersolar.com/MillerSolar/Portfolio/Commercial/RM/Interlock.JPG>
is a photo of a large frame breaker being interlocked.  Here
<https://millersolar.com/MillerSolar/Portfolio/Commercial/RM/RM_Interlock.pdf>
is a design sketch exploring multiple interlock options.



Always, this is a great discussion and specific recommended equipment is
appreciated.


Jason Szumlanski

Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group
NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP)
Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956

Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208





On Wed, Mar 27, 2024 at 12:33 AM William Miller 
wrote:

Jason:



Sol-Arc does provide generator support.  They call it “grid peak load
shaving” and it is described on page 22 of the manual.  Below is an excerpt.



*Error! Fi

Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Jason:



I am wondering on the advisability of hardwiring the outputs of all four
inverters together.  If one inverter fails the other three can backfeed
into it without any means to disconnect the failed inverter and without
over-current protection.  Have you considered landing the output of each
inverter on a separate, appropriately sized 2 pole breaker in the output
load-center?



In the same vein, how are you feeding generator input into the inverters?
Are these hard-wired paralleled as well?  You might consider having the
generator feed a dedicated load-center with an appropriately sized breaker
to feed each inverter.  You protect the conductors as required and you can
isolate any inverter for service



What size should these breaker be?  If your inverter can supply 62.5 AAC,
upsizing for continuous duty and to the next higher standard breaker size
you get 80 amps.  If you use 80 amp breakers into and out of each Sol-Arc
you require #4 copper at 75°C.  Each inverter and all of the conductors are
protected for the max current they will see and you get the combined
amperage at your output.  There should be no need to run 400 amp wire.



BTW, you can easily contrive a bypass system by creating a sliding
mechanical interlock.  You run an appropriately sized feeder between the
generator fed and inverter fed panels.  The bypass breaker in the
inverter-fed panels is interlocked with the inverter output breakers.  The
installation might look like this
<https://millersolar.com/MillerSolar/Portfolio/Inverters/battery_iinverters/Chimney_Rock/Chimney_rock.html>.
This is way cheaper and easier than installing an additional 200A,
double-throw safety switch.  (A home-made interlock may not be listed but
what is the worse that will happen if all breakers are on?  The inverters
will detect backfeed and shut down.  No harm will come of it.)



Hope this helps.



William



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985





*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches
*Sent:* Tuesday, March 26, 2024 2:26 PM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Cc:* Jason Szumlanski
*Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output



I am going to have a quad-stack of Sol-Ark 15K for an off-grid 120/240V
system with a 150A generator. I know the max real power is 62.5A each
inverter including battery and PV. That would be 62.5A x 4 = 250A total. I
intend to connect the output of the 4 inverters together with a 5-port
Polaris tap, with the output of the Polaris Tap going to a 400A main lug
only panelboard.



My question revolves around the 200A passthrough capability for the
generator, which is 150A max output and would be connected to the Grid
input on each inverter. Since each inverter would need to handle the full
pass-through current, that would require minimum 150A conductors on the
input side of each inverter. I am under the impression that the inverters
can supplement the "grid" or generator in this case if the current exceeds
the available input. That means the inverter would have 150A of input plus
62.5A  of inverter power for a total of 212.5A. But there is a 200A load
OCPD, so I could size the load conductors from each inverter for 200A.



Obviously the 4 inverters can only pass through 150A from the generator in
total, which would probably be split among them, but could go through a
single unit if the rest fail.



Now, is it possible for each inverter to output 62.5A each PLUS 150A of
generator power spread across them for a total of 400A? That is important
because I would need to size the combined output conductors for 400A if
that is the case.



I guess I'm not clear on how Sol-Ark 15K handles grid/generator
assist/supplement. It does not seem to be documented clearly.



Jason Szumlanski

Florida Solar Design Group
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[RE-wrenches] SMA 22 series inverters, resetting AFCI fault

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Friends:



I learned something yesterday about the SMA 22 series string inverters:  I
have a client that experienced an arc-fault shutdown.  I tried to reset the
error condition by following the procedure in the manual.  This involves
shutting down the inverter and then knocking on the front panel during
re-start when directed.  I had no luck.



Techs support said to knock harder.  I knocked so hard my knuckle started
bleeding.  Tech support said: sometimes these inverters get “stuck” and you
need to connect with a speedwire device to unstick them.



The speedwire is no longer made but I did find one to purchase for a little
over $200.  I have the same inverter at home so I practiced hooking the
device up to my inverter.  I had some problems so I called tech support and
spoke to a different person. He said I don’t need a speedwire, I just need
to knock harder with the back of a screwdriver in the correct spot.



I went the location with the failure and using a screwdriver tapping
vigorously just to the left of the display I got the unit to reset.



I am keeping the speedwire because I am paranoid I might need one in the
future and not be able to procure one.  If anyone wants to borrow the
thing, let me know.



William



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Adding customer to Optics RE system-Solved

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Friends:



I discovered the cause of my problems:  The customer has multiple email
addresses.  When he created his account on Optics he used a different email
address from the one he gave me to use in the invitation.  Once we got on
the same email address we connected successfully.



Thank for the advice.



William



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985





*From:* Nick A Lucchese [mailto:luccheseso...@me.com]
*Sent:* Wednesday, February 21, 2024 11:46 AM
*To:* will...@millersolar.com; RE-wrenches
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Adding customer to Optics RE system



Greetings William,



I think the trick is to have the customer wait until they get the invite
and not have them create an account ahead of time. However on your end, it
does say something about the client being able to add the system if they
already have an account. I too have come across this exact headache you’re
referring to and seems like it always resolves itself by way of the
invitation email the installer initiates.



Hope that helps. I know luck shouldn't need be associated but, good luck!
Nick







On Feb 21, 2024, at 11:12 AM, William Miller via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:



Friends:



This is a subject that has frustrated me for a long time.  I have asked
Outback Tech support but none of their people do this because they are not
customers.



I will connect anew system to Optics and send the client an invitation.
The customer creates and account and then is directed to a page that shows
this:







There is only one link to click and it takes you to this:





Again, you have only one choice.  The next step prompts to enter a MAC
address but that MAC address is already in the system and the system will
not let the customer proceed.



I have dealt with this for years.  Some customers stumble onto the solution
but if I look over someone’s shoulder I do not see how to log into an
existing system.  Anyone know what I am missing?



Thanks in advance.



William







Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985





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Re: [RE-wrenches] Insurance for solar design and inspections

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Dave:



I have thought about this dilemma pretty carefully in the past.  I have
come up with a line of logic that works for me.  I will try to keep the
explanation short but there is some nuance to it that might take some
‘splaning.



As a licensed electrical contractor it is my responsibility to design the
systems I install, with certain exceptions.  I don’t know if this is the
correct term, but I call it design/build.  My exposure is covered and my
requirements are met if I have a general liability policy and the required
bonding any contractor would.  Coverage for errors and omissions is not
required.



If the scope of the project is complicated beyond some level then the
services of a PE will be required and a wet-stamped plan may be needed, or
at least sensible to provide.  The client or the building department may
require this added service.



The level of complexity at which external, licensed design services are
needed is subjective.  Most electricians don’t need a PE to draw up a new
or replacement service or the details of configuring branch circuits, to
name a few examples.  The requirements can be deduced from the particulars
of the project and the language of the NEC.  If the contractor is
inexperienced, then more design help is needed.  If the contractor is more
experienced, then more complex projects can be designed in-house.  I decide
for myself if I am qualified to do the design work, or not.



Before a bid is prepared some level of design needs to be accomplished in
order to define the scope of the project, specify the materials and predict
the labor required.  My preference is to design the heck out of any job so
I don’t get any unpleasant, expensive surprises once the project
commences.  I don’t do this level of design work for free.  There is always
a work order for design time.



However I do not always get the contract to perform the physical work.  The
bid price may be too high or the project may not go forward for any number
of reasons.



Unless there is some proprietary information in the design, once the
customer pays my design fee the customer owns that design and is entitled
to deliverables in the form of drawings, calculations, bill of materials,
etc.  If I hand over those documents but do not install the work, I am
essentially working design only, not design/build.  However because the
intent was to design a project I would build, I don’t worry about that
detail.  I assume no liability for any part of the project unless I am
hired to build it.  I have no control over what the client does with the
design information once I turn it over.



Under this logic I am pretty comfortable providing occasional design-only
services as long as I could demonstrate, if asked, that I was operating in
good faith on a design/build project.  This intent can be satisfied by the
language of the work order, specifying the client will provide an
opportunity for you to bid on the work in hopes of winning the contract.



This approach might work for you or at least give you something to think
about.  Not everyone is willing to take the same risks.  Sorry about all of
the words.  I could not explain this approach any more concisely.



William



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985





*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
Behalf Of *Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches
*Sent:* Sunday, March 10, 2024 3:23 PM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Cc:* Dave Tedeyan
*Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Insurance for solar design and inspections



Hi All,



I have an insurance question and am very curious about how others deal with
this, or don't. People will sometimes ask us to either do some design work
for a system that we will not be installing, or to inspect a system and
give my professional opinion about it. These are two separate work
situations.



Recently, our insurance agent brought it to our attention that we should
have insurance specifically for these kinds of work, and it is not
something that is covered under our general liability (contractors)
insurance.



Their recommendation for design work is to get "professional liability"
(errors and omissions) insurance. Even though I may do one or two designs a
year, we are looking at a roughly $12,000 policy. This would be meant to
cover us if I make a mistake in the design that leads to some sort of
failure or fire.



Their recommendation for the inspection type work is to get essentially a
home inspector insurance policy for about $2400 per year. Again, this is
something that we do a handful of times per year. This insurance is meant
to cover us if I inspect a system and miss something that then ends up
being a problem or a hazard.



With a brief conversation with a lawyer acquaintance, he thought that I may
be fine with out these insurances. It sounded like I should have something
in my service contracts that would essentially say something like "we wi

[RE-wrenches] Evaluating battery health

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Friends:



Evaluating the state of health of a battery array is one concept I struggle
with.



It pretty easy with flooded batteries—charge them up and check SG.  Sealed
batteries are different.



I do track “at-rest” voltages of discrete 2 volt VRLA cells.  This
generally can’t be done for monoblock batteries.  I see trending towards
greater deviation over time.  For example a UnigyII array I am currently
working with is about 8 years old and has been worked hard.  Recent at-rest
voltage readings show a deviation of 8%.  Four years ago it was 2%.  How
much deviation is too much?



The O manual for UnigyII batteries suggests making ohmic measurements.
My research indicates this requires a rather expensive meter, such as a
Hioki 3554.  I suppose it may be cheap of me to not invest in one of these
meters and I am still considering doing so.  Have any of you worked with
one of these meters?



Here is another idea:  As we have discussed here, I am not a fan of battery
monitor modules in a battery inverter BOS package.  I am an Outback
integrator so the option is the FNDC.  The FNDC will generate SOC values
which are often inaccurate and confuse my clients.  These inaccuracies
occur when the programmed efficiency does not reflect an accurate value.
The eff will change over time, with different ambient temperature and at
different states of charge.  (Another problem with the FNDC is it has only
3 shunt inputs.  This can be difficult to implement if you have a large
battery array and many inverters and charge controllers.)



My idea is to turn this concept around.  Instead of calculating SOC one
could use the ratio of AH in to AH out over time to determine the actual
efficiency of a battery array.  Battery efficiency seems like as good an
indicator of battery health as any other value.  It is easy to obtain data
files for the FNDC in CSV format.  (I suspect this is kind of like what is
done internally for the Sunny Island battery health reading.)



Have any of you pondered these questions?  I am interested in your thoughts.



TIA.



William



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985
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Re: [RE-wrenches] TPM Search

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

https://solarrackworks.com/top-of-pole-racks.html

Jeff Randall has been in the business for years and he is as solid as they
come.  He started DPW.

William

Miller Solar
17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
805-438-5600
www.millersolar.com
CA Lic. 773985


-Original Message-
From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On
Behalf Of Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches
Sent: Friday, March 8, 2024 2:31 PM
To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Cc: Jeremy Rodriguez
Subject: [RE-wrenches] TPM Search

With news that PLP has dropped the TPM line, what are you all recommending
for a good mount for up to 8 modules , 400 w range.
I looked in the archives, but no luck.
I thought there was someone formerly at DPW that was making them.

Jeremy Rodriguez
Solar Installation / Design
All Solar, Inc.
1453 M St.
Penrose Colorado 81240

Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand.
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Older Sunny Islands charging newer Lithium's

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Peter:



I have been working at interfacing a set of SIs with LiFPO4 batteries.  It
is documented here
<https://millersolar.com/MillerSolar/case_studies/36_SIFortress/36_SunnyIslandFortressIntegration.html>
.



Because the Sis are so SOc-centric they can be hard to intergrate with
Lithium.



William



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985





*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
Behalf Of *Peter Giroux via RE-wrenches
*Sent:* Friday, March 1, 2024 12:53 PM
*To:* 'RE-wrenches'
*Cc:* pgir...@mindspring.com
*Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Older Sunny Islands charging newer Lithium's



My fellow wrenchers. Have sought help from SMA but they just defer to
owner’s manuals and the older batteries listed.. I have a customer with two
SMA 5048’s, roughly 11 years old and appear to be working fine. Customer
wants to move to LIPO batteries and keep his SMA’s. Has anybody made these
transitions and how did you do it, not sure the SMA programing for LIPO’s
works the way Lithium’s need. Any and all help and ideas appreciated.



Thx

Peter Giroux

American Solar & Alternative Energy Solutions inc
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Electrolyte level measurement

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Todd:

This is about batteries that exist.

William Miller
Miller Solar.com
805-438-5600
www.millersolar.com


On Wed, Feb 28, 2024 at 1:23 PM Todd Cory via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Another option for grid tied with battery based systems, is to use flooded
> lead calcium batteries which last 20 years and only need about 20 ml/ cell,
> added every 3 years.
>
> Todd
>
>
>
> On Wednesday, February 28, 2024 12:35pm, "Roy Butler via RE-wrenches" <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> said:
>
>
> And to add to Steve's good advice, make sure the sprayer has a plastic
> wand. Some are made with brass
> wands and that can add a degree of excitement that I can live without.
>
> I also only fill when the batteries are mostly charged. That lessens the
> chance of the cell being overfilled
> as the state of charge increases. Oh...and a headlamp helps to see the
> fluid level, just cock you head
> and you'll find just the right angle to see the fluid.
>
> Roy Butler Four Winds Renewable Energy, LLC 8902 Route 46
> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/8902+Route+46?entry=gmail=g>,
> Arkport, NY 14807
>
>
>
> Sent from Finest Planet WebMail.
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[RE-wrenches] Electrolyte level measurement

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Friends:



In spite of all of this talk about Li batteries, I still maintain a whole
lot of flooded cells.  I have always struggled with getting accurate
measurements of the electrolyte level.  Staring past a flashlight down into
a cell looking with one eye through scratched safety glasses, it is hard to
see just how high (or low) the level is.  I am cogitating on a few ideas to
make this easier and more accurate, but in the meantime, what are your
favorite tricks for this?



TIA



William



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Fwd: Re: $300 + transmission fee!

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Friends:

I am pondering a plan to prevent usage spikes. It would involve installing
a battery inverter that has true generator support. Connect the utility to
the generator input on the inverter and program the generator amps to just
below the threshold that incurs peak demand charges. If the load exceeds
that amount occasionally the inverter supplies the difference. The battery
is sized to sustain the shortfall for the expected duration.

The potential to save $300 a month provides a budget for the project.

William Miller
Miller Solar.com
805-438-5600
www.millersolar.com


On Sun, Feb 25, 2024 at 9:12 AM Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

>
> Peter,
>
> Right, that is about it. The fee is a monthly fee. It will take a year
> of keeping the spike below that before the fee will be dropped from the
> bill.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Drake
>
> Drake Chamberlin
> Athens Electric LLC
> Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810
> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
>
>
> ---
>
>
> On 2024-02-23 11:12, pgir...@mindspring.com wrote:
> > Drake
> >
> >   AEP should be able to provide your client ( if they are the one
> > asking ) with a real time readout showing the "spike / load increase "
> > and what actual equipment they had to install. Sounds a bit dodgy.
> > What's next, special fees for homeowners who kick on the well pump
> > flushing a toilet while using a hairdryer at the same time?
> >
> > Peter Giroux
> > ASAE
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: RE-wrenches  On
> > Behalf Of Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches
> > Sent: Friday, February 23, 2024 10:57 AM
> > To: RE-wrenches 
> > Cc: drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org
> > Subject: [RE-wrenches] $300 + transmission fee!
> >
> > Hello All,
> >
> > A system we installed several years ago is on an old school building
> > that has been repurposed to office space and small shops. The loads
> > are very small. The electric bill, during the short days of the year
> > with lots of clouds (very little solar), was around $30.
> >
> > Suddenly the electric bill came with a $300+ fee for transmission. AEP
> > claimed that the load, at some point, went over a certain amount of
> > power, so that the company had to charge for equipment that would
> > handle that load year around. No equipment changes have been made. The
> > service is 200 A.
> >
> > Has anyone else encountered this? I wonder if there is any other type
> > of rate schedule the building could be put on to eliminate this
> > problem.
> > AEP is not forthcoming about rate schedules or this issue.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Drake
> >
> > Drake Chamberlin
> > Athens Electric LLC
> > Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810 NABCEP Certified PV
> > Installation Professional
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > ___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Non-battery string inverter options?

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Friends:



Thanks to all who replied to my plea for help.  I know it takes time to
reply to this list, time that can’t be monetized.



So here are the options, as I see it:



SolarLovesYou.com:  Interesting site.  It’s like a museum in there.  A
refurbished inverter is a great idea for a legacy install with old panels
and wiring. I can’t offer refurbished for a new install with the warranty
required.



Tesla:  This is a personal opinion, but I find Elon Musk to be a
reprehensible person and it would be very hard for me to bring myself to
put one penny in his pocket.  I also thought you had to be Tesla certified
to access Tesla products and that would be a non-starter for me.



Fronius:  It would also be hard for me to purchase a Fronius.  We installed
maybe 20 of the IG series and most of them failed multiple times.  Fronius
staff disparaged me to clients behind my back.  Fronius would not send me
warranty replacement parts unless I gave them my credit card number, which
I refused on principal (I never once failed to return cores).  We lost work
because of the problems and conflicts.  The product, the people and the
policies may be better now, but the bitterness remains.  (It is interesting
that many of you have described positive experiences with Fronius.  This is
like the thread about lithium off-grid:  There were those adamantly against
it and others much the opposite.  The only way I can explain the disparity
of experiences with Fronius is that many of our failures where at sites
within a few miles of the coast and the IG series has flow through
ventilation and visibly thin or missing PCB coating.)



The new SMA hybrid:  Like I said, expensive and with a lot of unnecessary
parts.  The release date keeps getting pushed back so who knows when they
will ship.



Goodwe:  One of my suppliers recommended the GoodWe A-MS Series GW7600A-MS
7.6kW.  I have taken a cursory look and this may be the choice.



Its soon since I posted my question, maybe more options will come to light.



Thanks again everyone.



William





PS:  There was a section in the 2011 code (690.35) that indicates that if
you upgrade from a transformer based inverter the wiring has to either be
PV rated or in a conduit.  That section disappeared but the recollection
reminds me to inspect wiring in older systems before replacing inverters.



Wm



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985





*From:* August Goers [mailto:aug...@luminalt.com]
*Sent:* Thursday, February 22, 2024 4:55 PM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Cc:* will...@millersolar.com; Jay
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Non-battery string inverter options?



The last I checked, Fronius's inverters were not compatible with current CA
smart grid requirements, so won't be approved to connect to the grid, so be
careful there. Maybe they have new models now?



Tesla's 7.6 kW PV inverter is good, affordable, and can be installed
without MLPE. It also has 4 independent MPPTs and can be software derated
to lower AC values if necessary for the 120% rule. I believe BayWa and
Greentech are distributing these inverters.



https://www.tesla.com/support/energy/solar-inverter/tesla-solar-inverter



Best,



August







On Thu, Feb 22, 2024 at 4:46 PM Jay via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

Hi william



Fronius 7.6 kw are in stock.



I’ve installed a number of fronius with no issues.



Jay



On Feb 22, 2024, at 4:56 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:



Friends:



Now that RSS is required on almost every installation, I am having trouble
finding a plain old, non-battery, non-MLPE string inverter.  This is for a
ground mount with the inverter mounted to the rack-- the only scenario I
can imagine that does not require RSS.  I don’t need or want battery
capability, now or in the future.  The project does not have shading issues
and the inverter will be mounted on the array, so no version of MLPE is
needed.



My usual go-to would be the legacy SMA Sunny Boy series.  I can’t dine one
for sale and I am getting the impression these are no longer available.



What might you recommend for this new installation?



This brings up the question:  Of all the Sunny Boy installations I  have
out there, the next time one fails, what am I going to replace it with?



The new Sunny Boy Smarty-Pants series is not yet shipping, it is very
expensive and to replace a grid-connected inverter I don’t need battery
capabilities.



I can’t use Solar Edge because I won’t want to unwire a complete array and
add optimizers.



I am not that taken with Sol-Ark, not only because it includes the word Arc
in its name.  I don’t need the battery capabilities, AC load center or any
of the other complexities.



Any advice is appreciated.



William



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA

[RE-wrenches] Non-battery string inverter options?

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Friends:



Now that RSS is required on almost every installation, I am having trouble
finding a plain old, non-battery, non-MLPE string inverter.  This is for a
ground mount with the inverter mounted to the rack-- the only scenario I
can imagine that does not require RSS.  I don’t need or want battery
capability, now or in the future.  The project does not have shading issues
and the inverter will be mounted on the array, so no version of MLPE is
needed.



My usual go-to would be the legacy SMA Sunny Boy series.  I can’t dine one
for sale and I am getting the impression these are no longer available.



What might you recommend for this new installation?



This brings up the question:  Of all the Sunny Boy installations I  have
out there, the next time one fails, what am I going to replace it with?



The new Sunny Boy Smarty-Pants series is not yet shipping, it is very
expensive and to replace a grid-connected inverter I don’t need battery
capabilities.



I can’t use Solar Edge because I won’t want to unwire a complete array and
add optimizers.



I am not that taken with Sol-Ark, not only because it includes the word Arc
in its name.  I don’t need the battery capabilities, AC load center or any
of the other complexities.



Any advice is appreciated.



William



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback Board Repair

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Friends:



I have noticed the new verbiage on the vice line but as of yet I have not
been denied tech support due to the age of the equipment.



By the way, I called Fronius tech support yesterday for the first time in
quite a while about 3 dead IG inverters (no surprise to me).  Fronius was
willing to start the conversation but the call mysteriously dropped a few
minutes in and I could not reconnect…



William



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985





*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
Behalf Of *John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches
*Sent:* Thursday, February 22, 2024 5:46 AM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Cc:* John Blittersdorf
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback Board Repair



I just tried to get Outback tech support and the message was if the product
is under warranty, stay on the line for next available rep.  If not
warranty. contact Zonna Energy or NAZ Solar !



On Wed, Feb 21, 2024 at 10:14 PM Bradley Bassett via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

Regarding AEE and off grid support, I'm not really in touch with them much
any more so I can't say. You could ask Glenn Hall, he'd be able to say if
he's heard anything about hiring a new tech.  Of course finding someone
with much off grid experience would be hard. Glenn and Alex do have some
experience and may be able to help out.



Brad



On Wed, Feb 21, 2024 at 12:15 PM Nick A Lucchese via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

Zonna is a dependable resource. I often find they have more repair boards
and parts in their inventory than Outback does themselves. Whether the
older legacy boards or newer VFXR series, Zonna has them. I think of them
as the off grid distributor solution provider that AEE used to be known for.



Bradley B., has AEE made any effort to hire anyone that can attempt to
offer the type of support and knowledge you were known for? Perhaps this is
the reason they are phasing out Outback?



Wallace, am I understanding correctly that they now offer repair services
or refurbished board sets? I’ve only purchased new from them in the past
and last time it seemed Kris Stone was perhaps too overburdened for an
expedient repair solution. Judging by the amount of failures myself or
other off grid focused Outback dealers out there I imagine Kris would be
tied up for years! Not trying to throw any negativity towards Outback as I
know many are trying to deal with growing pains and providing sufficient
support but it can certainly be painful at times. Really looking forward to
going all in on Midnite’s newest offerings once they get the comms box out.
Really loving the Barcelona and Rosie so far.



Nick











On Feb 21, 2024, at 11:23 AM, Wallace Stahle via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:



Zonna Energy is one option.  Thats zone-ah

I sent them a faulty radian stack after they sent me a repaired one.

330-674-1750.   Ask for Amos or  Ext. 2.   zonnaenergy.com


On Feb 21, 2024, at 11:00 AM, Matt Sherald via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

Hi All,

I'm looking to move along some damaged Outback (GVFX and VFX) boards.

I found an older thread referencing Kris Stone, but didn't have luck with
the email.

Any suggestions would be appreciated.  Thanks!

-- 
Matt Sherald
PIMBY Energy, LLC
304-704-5943


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[RE-wrenches] Adding customer to Optics RE system

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Friends:



This is a subject that has frustrated me for a long time.  I have asked
Outback Tech support but none of their people do this because they are not
customers.



I will connect anew system to Optics and send the client an invitation.
The customer creates and account and then is directed to a page that shows
this:





There is only one link to click and it takes you to this:



Again, you have only one choice.  The next step prompts to enter a MAC
address but that MAC address is already in the system and the system will
not let the customer proceed.



I have dealt with this for years.  Some customers stumble onto the solution
but if I look over someone’s shoulder I do not see how to log into an
existing system.  Anyone know what I am missing?



Thanks in advance.



William







Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985
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Re: [RE-wrenches] EG4 Equipment

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Drake:



I prefer the UnigyII VRLA batteries.  Full river 2 volt L-16s are pretty
good and they allow one string configuration in larger AH settings.



I agree that as features grow so does complexity.  However there is no
substitute for good remote monitoring and control.  I can understand much
better the operation of systems with easy access to historic data and I
save a butt-load of driving.  I wish the Outback and Sunny Island files
could be obtained remotely for better analysis.



William



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985





*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
Behalf Of *Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches
*Sent:* Saturday, February 17, 2024 9:43 AM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Cc:* drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] EG4 Equipment



I fully agree that off grid solar has taken a major downturn. Once the
equipment became software based, the reliability dropped. Sure, there are
nice features available with these cyber enhanced systems, but the cost in
reliability makes being energy independent off the grid hard to accomplish.

There are good reports on Samlex products. Has anyone tried their new
120/240 split phase units? Are they stack-able yet?

As far as batteries go, I'm pretty much in the Lead Head club, especially
for off grid. That being said, lead acid batteries, especially AGMs have
gotten really expensive and it seems the quality isn't what it used to be.

What is the best AGM battery these days?

Thanks,

Drake



---





On 2024-02-16 17:02, Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches wrote:

We gave EG4 and Signature another chance after promises from their dealer
oriented support department that we could expect better service from them.
We had an EG4 BMS crap out a couple months ago after only a few months.
Lots and lots of communications with Signature and we still don't have a
BMS or replacement battery. It's been a shit show with them. I think we are
going to remove them and install 3rd party BMS's and find some use for
them. Maybe donate them. We've only had luck with Schneider/Discover
pairings in closed loop. A large system we did with Sol-Arks never really
worked in Closed loop, despite Discover coming to the site. Most likely
it's a Sol-Ark issue, but we've reached Sol-Arks technical expertise
limits. Even with Schneider/AES, there have been some issues that are
causing me to re-consider Li for offgrid. I just had a conversation this
morning with a long time off-grid pro and he said the same thing. It used
to be, we'd install a wet lead acid bank and then ten years would pass
before hearing from the client when it was time for another bank. Sometimes
fifteen years. Our call backs with systems over the last ten years, first
with a decline in equipment quality and then the switch to Li are costing
us too much money and causing a lot of heartburn for our clients. Rant Over



On Fri, Feb 16, 2024 at 12:57 PM Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

Hi All,



I've searched the archives for info pertaining to EG4 inverters and
batteries. The comments have been mostly positive.  I have stayed away from
EG4 until now in part, for the reason the Michael Morningstar suggested
last June - that is, they seemed very oriented to the DIY market and not
real serious contenders in the lasting marketplace. However, I was at RE+
Boston this week and was quite surprised to see that the EG4 18k inverter
is, for all I could tell, identical to the Fortress Envy 12k, in both
physical layout as well as menu structure. I have very limited experience
with the Envy (having just installed my 1st one last week, in order to
compare it to the Sol-Ark 15). I don't have any thoughts about it yet,
except that the font on the screen is quite small and the opening screen is
not as intuitive as the Sol-Ark, but that might just take familiarizing
myself more to the Envy (and/or the EG4).



My question is, for folks who have had either the Envy or the EG4 inverters
installed for a decent period of time, what is your current take on their
functionality, durability, and for the EG4, the quality of support? Also,
what experience have folks had similarly with the EG4 LLI batteries? I'm
not unhappy with the Sol-Ark or in general the Fortress eVault Max battery,
but there are some attractive things about the Envy and potentially the EG4
18k, and the price point and seemingly smart configuration of the EG4 LLI
batteries are certainly eye-catching.



I'm also currently starting to lean toward using Lithium batteries and
inverters from the same manufacturer, as I'm growing weary of the
mismatching firmware updates that are causing somewhat frequent issues
between the 2 components. Although the inverter/battery integrated units
(i.e. Sonen, Tesla, etc.) don't seem ideal, since the market is so volatile
at the moment. If one component fails, I'd like the 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Fortress

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Jay:



Here is a link
<https://millersolar.com/MillerSolar/case_studies/36_SIFortress/36_SunnyIslandFortressIntegration.html>
to the study.



The web page needs to be updated with this information:



There are two settings to be changed in the Sunny Boy Inverters:  Backup
mode and Default.  See Below:





I had set the default to OFF_Grid but I had not set the Backup Mode to On
All.  It was in Off.



There is a possibility changing the Backup Mode setting may fix the
Frequency Shift Power Control problem that is the root of this dilemma.
There have not been enough sunny days to see the PV bring SOC up to the
level of near 100% where the problem exhibits.  As soon as the weather gets
sunnier and the days get longer I will see what happens and report back.



William



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985





*From:* Jay [mailto:jay.pe...@gmail.com]
*Sent:* Thursday, February 15, 2024 5:50 AM
*To:* will...@millersolar.com; RE-wrenches
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Fortress



Hi william



Could you share the equipment used and what issues you had?



Thx

Jay



On Feb 14, 2024, at 3:13 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:



Peter:



I have only purchased one set of Fortress batteries.  There have been
issues, I am sure many of them self-induced.  Fortress has been overall
very responsive.  There have been a few days where I could not get through
to technical support but with persistence I always manage.  Fortress has
offered truck–roll compensation at a reasonable rate as well.



William Miller



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985





*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
Behalf Of *Peter Giroux via RE-wrenches
*Sent:* Wednesday, February 14, 2024 6:47 AM
*To:* 'RE-wrenches'
*Cc:* pgir...@mindspring.com
*Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Fortress



Good morning my fellow wrenchers. While I see the comments on SunPower and
the challenges, are any of you having similar issues with Fortress? Their
bms boards from the early classics have not held up and even after
replacement there are still issues ( parallel batteries and stand alone not
showing accurate #’s,  ). While support has been, well supportive, the
issues persist. Any thoughts or fixes you have come up with?? I just had a
customer unplug the coms cable from their sol-ark and bring their readings
to volts VS %% and it is starting to work a bit better. Any and all help or
ideas appreciated.



Thx
peter Giroux

American Solar

Norcross Ga

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Fortress

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Peter:



I have only purchased one set of Fortress batteries.  There have been
issues, I am sure many of them self-induced.  Fortress has been overall
very responsive.  There have been a few days where I could not get through
to technical support but with persistence I always manage.  Fortress has
offered truck–roll compensation at a reasonable rate as well.



William Miller



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985





*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
Behalf Of *Peter Giroux via RE-wrenches
*Sent:* Wednesday, February 14, 2024 6:47 AM
*To:* 'RE-wrenches'
*Cc:* pgir...@mindspring.com
*Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Fortress



Good morning my fellow wrenchers. While I see the comments on SunPower and
the challenges, are any of you having similar issues with Fortress? Their
bms boards from the early classics have not held up and even after
replacement there are still issues ( parallel batteries and stand alone not
showing accurate #’s,  ). While support has been, well supportive, the
issues persist. Any thoughts or fixes you have come up with?? I just had a
customer unplug the coms cable from their sol-ark and bring their readings
to volts VS %% and it is starting to work a bit better. Any and all help or
ideas appreciated.



Thx
peter Giroux

American Solar

Norcross Ga
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Fwd: Re: Cantilevered array

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Good question about rain shedding.

My questions for Sky:  were the installations evaluated by a structural
engineer to calculate ability to withstand wind effects and snow load?
What roof anchors were recommended?

William Miller
Miller Solar.com
805-438-5600
www.millersolar.com


On Tue, Feb 13, 2024 at 7:55 AM Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> If the array covers the rain gutters, doesn't that prevent the gutters
> from catching rain? Doesn't the edge of the extended modules form a drip
> edge, where water will not be diverted by the gutters, but hit the ground
> directly?
>
> Will the gutters be accessible for future maintenance?
>
>
> *Drake Chamberlin*
>
> *Athens Electric LLC*
>
> *Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810*
>
> *NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional*
> ---
>
>
>
> On 2024-02-12 11:02, Christopher Warfel wrote:
>
> Hi, in what way?  The loading is obviously less, and the clamps are rated
> for the load.
> On 2/12/2024 10:56 AM, drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org wrote:
>
> How do you deal with the rain gutters?
>
>
> Drake Chamberlin
>
> Media & Communication Action Project
>
> https://m-cap.org/
> ---
>
>
>
> On 2024-02-08 16:46, Sky Sims via RE-wrenches wrote:
>
> I've designed and installed several thousand cantilevered arrays over the
> last three decades and never had a single issue. Unfortunately, code
> changes have taken a turn for the worse in most jurisdictions and
> oftentimes disallow cantilevering.
>
> Sky Sims
> Https://EcologicalSystems.org
> 732-462-3858
>
> On Jan 19, 2024, at 3:09 PM, Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches
>  
> wrote:
>
> I've done a fair amount of roof mounted solar structural compliance, and
> I would say that the cantilevered design looks like a disaster waiting to
> happen. You could not use conventional solar racking products.  Chris
>
>
>
> On 1/13/2024 12:42 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches wrote:
>
> Drake
>
>
>
> My earlier reply may have been a bit facetious.  What I meant by it was
> that big-box solar contractors can be lazy when it comes to solar design.
> They will rely totally on satellite imagery and not check the design on the
> ground.  This is how you get solar proposed for shaded areas, where
> skylights and roof vents are located, or overhanging thin air.  This may be
> what is happening in the image you shared.
>
>
>
> What is unique here is someone actually specified overhanging panels.
> Looking more closely at the image, a roof outline is shown but it is not
> clear that the outline is actually situated over a building.  It almost
> looks like there is landscaped area inside the outline.
>
>
>
> The solution of course is to get on out there, measure the roof and any
> obstructions and analyze the shading.  I use the Sun Seeker
> <https://apps.apple.com/us/app/sun-seeker-tracker-surveyor/id330247123>
> app for IOS for the shading analysis.
>
>
>
> William
>
>
>
> Miller Solar
>
> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
>
> 805-438-5600
>
> www.millersolar.com
>
> CA Lic. 773985
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
> Behalf Of *Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches
> *Sent:* Saturday, January 13, 2024 8:47 AM
> *To:* RE-wrenches
> *Cc:* drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org
> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Fwd: Re: Cantilevered array
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Here is a larger snip of the situation.
>
>
>
>
> 
>
> Label says overhang from upper roof.
>
>
>
> *Drake Chamberlin*
>
> *Athens Electric LLC*
>
> *Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810*
>
> *NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional*
>
>
>
> ---
>
>
>
>
>
> On 2024-01-12 07:29, Jason Szumlanski wrote:
>
> Are you sure that's what you're looking at? To me, that looks like there
> was an addition made to the house, and maybe it's a multi-pitch roof. That
> lower part might be a covered wrap-around porch.
>
>
> Jason Szumlanski
>
> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group
> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP)
> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jan 11, 2024 at 5:59 PM Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
> I was given a drawing, produced by a very large solar company, showing the
> array cantilevered over the edge of the roof by several feet.
>
> 
>
>
>
> Notice how the array hangs out over the 

[RE-wrenches] Deka Duration

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Pals:



Anyone have any experience with this product, good or bad?



https://www.mkbattery.com/products/energy-storage#deka



We have had excellent results using their flooded and valve regulated
lead-acid batteries.



William



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985
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Re: [RE-wrenches] State of Charge Meter for Sol-Ark

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Jason:



EVs apparently have their own problems with metering:
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a44754199/tesla-range-display-estimate-tested/



William





Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985





*From:* Jason Szumlanski [mailto:ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com]
*Sent:* Monday, February 5, 2024 9:52 AM
*To:* William Miller
*Cc:* RE-wrenches
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] State of Charge Meter for Sol-Ark



This isn't an acceptable response that I can give to people spending tens
of thousands of dollars on batteries. These clients roll into their garage
and their EV tells them how many miles are left (state of charge,
effectively). If it can be done in an EV, it's unacceptable to resign
ourselves as solar professionals to tell clients there is no reasonably
accurate way estimate state of charge of a backup battery, which is based
on the same technology as an EV battery.



I have seen the "elasticity" of SOC reading you mentioned. It's just
unacceptable in this day and age. We need to demand better from the
manufacturers. Clients will be okay with some degree of uncertainty, but we
can't have a fuel gauge bouncing all over the place.



-end of rant-



Jason





On Mon, Feb 5, 2024, 11:51 AM William Miller 
wrote:

Jason:



I am careful about getting my clients too dependent on SOC readings.  SOC
is a calculated value based on changing variables and is notoriously
inaccurate.



Below is a screenshot of the Optics reporting for a client.  The graph line
that begins as the lower of the two is the SOC, the other is voltage.  The
SOC is out of calibration until about noon when it jumps from about 20% to
about 80%.  This does not mean the SOC changed by that amount, it means
that it was just very wrong.  Who knows when it is correct?



In spite of repeated entreaties this client still reads the SOC and becomes
concerned when it gets low-- even if the voltage level indicates the
batteries are well charged.  I have to deal with his misplaced anxiety.





[image: SOC][image: VDC]



This problem appears to occur across all battery/inverter technology.  For
example, SMA touts their “coulomb counting” as more accurate than others
but I have witnessed otherwise.  You’d think that BMS units built by
lithium manufacturers for their own products would be consistently accurate
but even those BMS units need to recalibrate frequently, this according to
the battery manufacturer’s engineers.



It would be nice to offer clients a simple, accurate method of ascertaining
battery charge levels.  SOC is not that method.  I train my clients to
watch voltage levels and to understand these values are elastic.  If you
can see trends in the battery voltage, so much the better. This is why I
like the Outback Optics interface.  This is also why a good AGS system
examines battery voltage over time.



I no longer install Outback FNDC units.  Without them there is no SOC
reading.  I don’t install Sunny Island systems—they are SOC centered and
suffer for it.



William



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985





*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches
*Sent:* Sunday, February 4, 2024 7:30 AM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Cc:* Jason Szumlanski
*Subject:* [RE-wrenches] State of Charge Meter for Sol-Ark



Are there any off the shelf solutions to view battery SOC via a wired meter
mounted remotely on a property? I have a client with a simple voltage based
meter for lead acid batteries that they are accustomed to using as a quick
and approximate gauge of SOC. They want something similar for their new
Sol-Ark with EG4 LL batteries.



They will have smartphone app visibility, but they want something they can
see inside the house without picking up a phone or going out to the
inverter. Ideally the SOC will come from the inverter or the battery
itself, not an external source (to avoid discrepancies).



Jason Szumlanski

Florida Solar Design Group
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Re: [RE-wrenches] State of Charge Meter for Sol-Ark

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Jason:



I am careful about getting my clients too dependent on SOC readings.  SOC
is a calculated value based on changing variables and is notoriously
inaccurate.



Below is a screenshot of the Optics reporting for a client.  The graph line
that begins as the lower of the two is the SOC, the other is voltage.  The
SOC is out of calibration until about noon when it jumps from about 20% to
about 80%.  This does not mean the SOC changed by that amount, it means
that it was just very wrong.  Who knows when it is correct?



In spite of repeated entreaties this client still reads the SOC and becomes
concerned when it gets low-- even if the voltage level indicates the
batteries are well charged.  I have to deal with his misplaced anxiety.





[image: SOC][image: VDC]



This problem appears to occur across all battery/inverter technology.  For
example, SMA touts their “coulomb counting” as more accurate than others
but I have witnessed otherwise.  You’d think that BMS units built by
lithium manufacturers for their own products would be consistently accurate
but even those BMS units need to recalibrate frequently, this according to
the battery manufacturer’s engineers.



It would be nice to offer clients a simple, accurate method of ascertaining
battery charge levels.  SOC is not that method.  I train my clients to
watch voltage levels and to understand these values are elastic.  If you
can see trends in the battery voltage, so much the better. This is why I
like the Outback Optics interface.  This is also why a good AGS system
examines battery voltage over time.



I no longer install Outback FNDC units.  Without them there is no SOC
reading.  I don’t install Sunny Island systems—they are SOC centered and
suffer for it.



William



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985





*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches
*Sent:* Sunday, February 4, 2024 7:30 AM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Cc:* Jason Szumlanski
*Subject:* [RE-wrenches] State of Charge Meter for Sol-Ark



Are there any off the shelf solutions to view battery SOC via a wired meter
mounted remotely on a property? I have a client with a simple voltage based
meter for lead acid batteries that they are accustomed to using as a quick
and approximate gauge of SOC. They want something similar for their new
Sol-Ark with EG4 LL batteries.



They will have smartphone app visibility, but they want something they can
see inside the house without picking up a phone or going out to the
inverter. Ideally the SOC will come from the inverter or the battery
itself, not an external source (to avoid discrepancies).



Jason Szumlanski

Florida Solar Design Group


image002.emz
Description: Binary data


image006.emz
Description: Binary data
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[RE-wrenches] Recommendation on DC Breaker/Musings on PV disconnecting/Tigo warning

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

ground mount or using a piece of
copper pipe to retrieve a Frisbee from under a PV array, or a homeowner
falling into a PV array while hanging holiday decorations on a dormer-- to
name just a few scenarios.  Number three, the goal is to eliminate MLPE.
Until PV panels come with an accessible off switch, we need MLPE.  We
cannot have power sources so ubiquitous to our lives that can’t be turned
off.



As an industry, I think we have not prioritized PV safety nearly as much as
the industry does for regular electric equipment safety. If you don’t
believe me, try running conductors to a roof-top air conditioning unit
without conduit protection and see what your inspector thinks about that.



I am interested in thoughts any of you may have on the above topics.



William



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985





*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
Behalf Of *Nick A Lucchese via RE-wrenches
*Sent:* Thursday, January 18, 2024 9:50 AM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Cc:* Nick A Lucchese
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Recommendation on DC Breaker



The Siemens HNF361RPV is worth looking into. Quite affordable and reliable
build quality without having to resort to Amazon. It first appears that
it’s limit is 250 vdc but the footnotes indicate 600 once going deeper into
the details. Obviously not a fuse though.



Nick







On Jan 18, 2024, at 7:59 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:



Thanks, all, for the quick recommendations. I believe an isolator like the
IMO is technically all that is needed since it is a current limited circuit
and OCPD shouldn't be required, but the manual calls for a circuit breaker.
That is probably just a semantics issue.



On the other hand, the 1000V DIN rail breakers on Amazon are a dead cheap
option and worth considering, too.


Jason Szumlanski

Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group
NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP)
Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956

Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208





On Thu, Jan 18, 2024 at 10:48 AM Jay via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

I’d use an IMO disconnect as you don’t have any current limitations.



I think sometimes things get lost in translation.



Jay







On Jan 18, 2024, at 8:43 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:



I am installing an EG4 off-grid 3k inverter for the first time, and the
manual requires a DC circuit breaker on the PV input. It will be a small PV
array with adjusted max Voc around 280V @ Isc 10.6A.



I'm looking for a cost-effective DC breaker and enclosure for this purpose.



Jason Szumlanski
Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group
NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP)
Florida Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956
Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208



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Re: [RE-wrenches] Odd battery charging behavior with Outback inverters

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Jay:

Thanks for the reply. My understanding is that a new bulk process begins
every time AC power is reapplied. Rebulk only applies if AC power is
maintained after absorption completes. That’s not what is happening here.


William Miller
Miller Solar.com
805-438-5600
www.millersolar.com


On Fri, Jan 12, 2024 at 8:50 AM Jay via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> There is or was a setting in the mate 3/s that the rebulk volts has a
> trigger. If the voltage doesn’t get below it it won’t charge (absorb)
> properly. Fix is to set the rebulk up higher than the charge volts
>
> I don’t know if that’s your issue or not but I have fixed this  on
> systems.
>
> Jay
>
>
> On Jan 12, 2024, at 8:52 AM, Steve Higgins via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
> 
>
> Good Morning Everyone,
>
> The graphs look like something is bypassing the absorb timers.   I haven't
> been at Outback for a long time now, but from my experience, this can be
> caused by the FNDC, end amps programming of the FM Controllers,  or the
> operating mode of the inverter.
>
> On the FM Charge Controllers:
>
> In the Advanced menus are the End Amps settings; this should be programmed
> to about .5 to 1% of the battery bank capacity at the most.  If the absorb
> timers are over 4 hours, I would defeat this setting altogether, especially
> if they charge lead batteries.   The issue with this setting is most lead
> manufacturers want the current going into the battery under charge to fall
> to less than 2-3% for 60 mins.   The timer in the FM's is only 3 mins and
> is not programmable.
>
> On the FNDC:
>
> Still, to this day, I find FNDC installations that are not correctly
> programmed, even from experienced installers.  It does not help that the
> FNDC was a very misunderstood product.
>
> The FNDC has 5 Settings that Matter: Battery Capacity, End Amps,
> Parameters Met Time, Parameters Met Voltage, and Battery Charge Factor%.
>
> Battery Capascity = C20 Battery Capascity.
> End Amp 2-3% of the C20 rate
>
> The settings that trip up most are met voltage, Met Time, and BCF%.   The
> Met time for FLA, AGM, and GEL should be 45 to 60 mins. For LFP, it should
> be around 30 mins.   It could be 45 to 60 minutes if you have over three
> parallel strings of LFP batteries. A bit longer will allow for better
> balancing between strings.
>
> Parameters Met Voltage should be one step under the target
> absorb voltage.   So, if you charge 59.2, this should be set to 58.8.
>
> As for the Mode of the inverter, if the inverter is attempting to support
> or grid sell, these modes will shorten the charging and bypass the Absrob
> timers depending on how low the battery voltage dropped and for how long.
>  In the old days, this used to be on only the GT-version inverters; now,
> it's present in all of them. It just depends on what mode the inverter is
> programmed to operate in.
>
> 
>
>
> For a straight off-grid system, generator mode is the correct mode, but
> it's been a while, and I would have to check the OB documentation as to
> what mode to operate in.
>
> Contact me offlist or call me, and maybe I can better explain it...
>
> I do have an optics account (st...@surrette.com). If you invite me to
> view your setup, I may be able to take a look and help find the setting(s)
> causing this, but I would look first for the above-mentioned issues.
>
> One last thing: it could be a failing battery cell or connection issue, as
> this would also trigger end amps terminations early.  The problem with this
> is you have a lot of installs doing the same thing, so this is a settings
> issue rather than failing cells.
>
> Hope this helps!
>
> <http://www.rollsbattery.com> <http://www.rollsbattery.com>
> <http://www.rollsbattery.com> <http://www.rollsbattery.com>
> <http://www.rollsbattery.com> <http://www.rollsbattery.com>
> <http://www.rollsbattery.com> <http://www.rollsbattery.com>
> <http://www.rollsbattery.com> <http://www.rollsbattery.com>
> <http://www.rollsbattery.com> <http://www.rollsbattery.com>
> <http://www.rollsbattery.com> <http://www.rollsbattery.com>
> <http://www.rollsbattery.com> <http://www.rollsbattery.com>
> <http://www.rollsbattery.com> <http://www.rollsbattery.com>
> Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager
> t +1.902.597.4020  m +1.206.790.5840
> f +1.902.597.8447  e st...@surrette.com
> <http://www.facebook.com/RollsBattery>
> <https://www.youtube.com/user/RollsBattery>
> <https://www.youtube.com/RollsBatteryEngineering>
> <https://www.youtube.com/RollsBatteryEngineering&

[RE-wrenches] Odd battery charging behavior with Outback inverters

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Friends:



I got a call from a client inquiring as to why his generator was starting
every morning, even though no one was staying at the property and there was
decent, albeit winter, sunshine.



While looking into it I noticed that when his generator did run the battery
voltage did not stay at absorb level for the prescribed time period as set
in the battery charging settings.



Outback tech support said that, lacking a better theory, it might be
possible the FNDC could be affecting the charge settings.  I do not allow
FNDCs to control generator run, so this seemed unlikely.  However I had no
better idea and am being not much of a fan of the FNDC, I agreed to unplug
it.  There was no change in the generator charging voltage profile made by
this.



I got curiouser and started looking at other Outback sites.  All of my
normal Outback off-grid systems with both Radian and VFX inverters are
exhibiting the same problem.



I know this is kind of in the weeds, but that is what we are here for,
right?  I made a little web page about this issue to easily share
information and graphics.  Here is the link
<https://millersolar.com/MillerSolar/case_studies/38-Radian_Charging/Outback_Charging.html>
.



This issue has serious implications for my clients.  The charging profiles
seen are not good for these batteries.  Eventually the deficiencies in the
charging regime will shorten the life spans of very expensive batteries.



I am not very informed about lithium batteries, but I would be interested
if this profile is bad or not for lithium batteries.



I am hoping this is not a design or programming defect.  I would be
interested in any shared experience.  Maybe some of you could glance at
your Optics displays and see if you are seeing the same thing.  All input
is very much appreciated.



William Miller



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985
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Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA String inverters

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Jeremy:



We generally avoided using the 41 series inverter for reasons specified here
<https://millersolar.com/MillerSolar/case_studies/SMA_40_Series/Whats_wrong_with_40_Series.html>.
If you find a new string inverter in the SMA lineup, you might want to
check to see if they have resolved some of the shortcomings.



I have not had reason to use string inverters because, other than Solar
Edge, they do not offer intrinsic rapid shutdown.  Careful reading of the
NEC indicates that even ground mount arrays require RSS unless the PV
feeders run to a building with the sole use being to house solar
equipment.  Having said that, I would imagine that if an inverter were
mounted on the ground-mount rack, the requirement for RSS could be avoided.



William Miller



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985





-Original Message-
From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On
Behalf Of Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches
Sent: Monday, January 8, 2024 1:44 PM
To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Cc: Jeremy Rodriguez
Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA String inverters



What are you wrenches that used to install the SB-41 units sourcing
now? Looks like there is a new model on their website





Jeremy Rodriguez

Solar Installation / Design

All Solar, Inc.

1453 M St.

Penrose Colorado 81240



Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand.

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Automatic load control

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Howie:

Segregated load distribution. Simple, automatic.

I don’t get why they put 200 amp pass-through on an inverter that can only
produce 62.5 amps.


William Miller
Miller Solar.com
805-438-5600
www.millersolar.com


On Thu, Dec 14, 2023 at 6:37 PM Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> I am trying to figure out best options to control loads in a  Sol-Ark15k
> battery backup residential system.  It's been quite a few years since I've
> set up an automatic load control, and never with a Sol-Ark. The Sol-Ark
> will output to the main breaker panel, so no separate "backed up" panel -
> all house loads will likely be on the Sol-Ark's load side.
>
> What do folks like to use in this type of circumstance to automatically
> shed loads when the grid is down,  either sequentially as the battery bank
> drops down or more simply triggered by loss of grid? Are they pieces of
> equipment that work specifically with the Sol-Ark?
> I'd also be open to considering Fortress's Envy, if there is an option
> that would work well specifically with it.
> I'm interested in the range of options from simple to complicated, as long
> as it is automated.  All automated ideas/options appreciated.
> Thanks!
> Howie Michaelson
> Sun Catcher
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Re: [RE-wrenches] 48 V DC temp sensing relay

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Drake:

I tried running 48 VDC muffin fans on battery voltage. They failed. I
switched to a Dc-Dc converter (12 or 24, can’t remember) from digi-key and
problem solved.

Point being battery voltage ranges may be too extreme for some components.


William Miller
Miller Solar.com
805-438-5600
www.millersolar.com


On Wed, Dec 13, 2023 at 8:08 AM Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Hello,
>
> Does anyone know of a 48 VDC temperature sensing relay? I need to use one
> to control a fan in a 48 V battery bank, to bring in cold air when the bank
> gets too hot from the wood heating system in the house.
>
> The relay needs to operate with the 48 VDC power supply and disconnect a
> small current with 48 VDC contacts.
>
> Thank you,
>
> Drake
>
>
> *Drake Chamberlin*
>
> *Athens Electric LLC*
>
> *Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810*
>
> *NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional*
>
>
> --
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Gateway causing lamp to flicker

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Adam:



I have experienced the same scenario some years ago with an oval gateway.
We tried some filters but they did not help. We did not have an isolated
load center for the gateway.  I think the client bought a new lamp without
touch control.



You need to connect the gateway and inverter to an isolated load center so
you can put a filter on the feeder to that subpanel.



William



*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
Behalf Of *AE Solar via RE-wrenches
*Sent:* Monday, December 11, 2023 6:56 AM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Cc:* AE Solar
*Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Enphase Gateway causing lamp to flicker



Wrenches

We have a project where the homeowner has some of those bedside lamps where
you touch them to turn them on/off/dim (rather than having a switch). It
seems like when the Enphase Gateway is powered up it causes the lights to
freak out. Once we flip the breaker to the Gateway off the lamp operates as
normalZ Interestingly, with another load (homeowner was using a
dehumidifier) plugged into the circuit it seems to stabilize the lights. We
isolated the problem to the Gateway specifically (ie having PV breakers
on/off doesn’t make a difference). It’s a supply side connection. The house
is small but we tried the lamp in multiple parts of the house and it
happens everywhere.  Enphase doesn’t have any ideas. Anyone have this
happen to them?



I think we might just need to buy them some new lamps, but I’m also
interested to understand what is happening. These are just some cheap
lamps, but wondering if other household loads that are more sensitive might
be affected as well?



Adam
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Fortress remote monitoring

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Friends:



The Guardian app does not provide any historical data.  Fortress says they
are working on that.  They claim that on request they can provide
historical data but the one time I asked there was an hours-long gap in the
data at the exact time I needed.  Maybe Rose Mary Woods’ incarnation is
working for them.



William



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985





*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
Behalf Of *Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches
*Sent:* Wednesday, December 6, 2023 9:40 AM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Cc:* Kirk Herander
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Fortress remote monitoring



Yep, I found this out when I installed my first Fortress Evault / Envy
inverter combo last month.



What was also a bit different at first is the fact there are -2- different
apps: the Guardian gateway app and the Envy inverter app. I bought the
guardian thinking it was the only way to see the system remotely, but this
is not true IF you've installed the Envy inverter also. The limitation of
no "fleet" monitoring is puzzling.



But now I'm glad there's a unique app for the inverter. The inverter app is
much more detailed and allows most parameters to be tweaked remotely. The
Guardian app id for basic system monitoring only.



So the single-user per app has worked out OK. My customer uses the
at-a-glance Guardian app, and I use the Envy app for more detailed
monitoring and programming.



On Wed, Dec 6, 2023 at 12:11 PM Sam Haraldson via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

Here is an official communication from Fortress that we received recently
when inquiring about monitoring Fortress batteries as an Installer.  Some
of you may find the info relevant.



-- Forwarded message -
From:  
Date: Mon, Dec 4, 2023 at 12:37 PM
Subject: Re:[## 5635 ##] Remote Monitoring Access
To: -@---.com



Hi -,



As of right now, the Guardian app is designed to be used by the end user
only and does not have "fleet management" capabilities as you have
described. This is a highly demanded feature so we are working on getting
this added by Q2 2024.



If you would like to view the info from their Guardian, you can use their
login info and log in using their credentials on your phone.



Best,

- --

Applications Engineer II

Fortress Power

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-- 

*Kirk Herander / **kirkh@vermont.solar *

*Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC*

*Celebrating our 33st Anniversary 1991-2024!!*

dba Vermont Solar Engineering

802.559.1225
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[RE-wrenches] ESS in attached garage: Heat or smoke detectors

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Friends:



We are installing an off-grid power system in an attached garage with VRLA
batteries (UnigyII).  I need to show compliance with California Residential
Code section R328.7.  That code language is below:



*R328.7 Fire detection.*

Rooms and areas within dwelling units, basements and attached garages in
which ESS are installed shall be protected by smoke alarms in accordance
with Section R314. A heat detector, listed and interconnected to the smoke
alarms, shall be installed in locations within dwelling units and attached
garages where smoke alarms cannot be installed based on their listing.

[SFMJ ESS installed in Group R-3 and townhomes shall comply with the
following:

1. Rooms and areas within dwellings units, sleeping units, basements and
attached garages in which ESS are installed shall be protected by smoke
alarms in accordance with Section R314.

2. A listed heat alarm interconnected to the smoke alarms shall be
installed in locations within dwelling units, sleeping units and attached
garages where smoke alarms cannot be installed based on their listing.



R314 is the language about how where to install interconnected smoke
detectors.



The home is already sheet-rocked and painted.  Does anyone have any idea
how I can comply?



Thanks in advance.



William Miller



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Integrating Fortress E-vault maxes into an SI AC-coupled system

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Correction: 2.2k. Sorry for the confusion, my memory sucks.

William Miller
Miller Solar.com
805-438-5600
www.millersolar.com


On Sun, Nov 12, 2023 at 6:41 PM William Miller 
wrote:

> 2.7 k ohms = about 37 C. Digi key or I can send you a few.
>
> William Miller
> Miller Solar.com
> 805-438-5600
> www.millersolar.com
>
>
> On Sun, Nov 12, 2023 at 5:27 PM Roland - RES via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
>> Jerry,
>>
>> I have an upcoming project where I will need to add the resister to
>> eliminate and batt temp charging corrections. I have not done this before
>> can you provide where I could find a twister to achieve this?
>>
>> Mahalo,
>>
>>
>> Roland Shackelford
>>
>> President / Owner
>>
>> NABCEP PVIP #091209-162
>>
>> Office 808.775.7410
>>
>> Mobile 808.938.9239
>>
>> Power Solutions for Generations Renewable Energy Services, Inc.
>> <https://www.renewablenergy.com/>
>>
>> " Where there is integrity, there will be trust. Where there is trust,
>> there will be an atmosphere for success." - Sadhguru
>>
>> On Nov 12, 2023, at 10:51 AM, Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches <
>> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>
>> 
>> Regarding the SI Inverters,for me it works best to eliminate the bat temp
>> sensor and put in a resister set to be 75 degrees, this will prevent the
>> charger over under charge issue.
>> Fun times
>>
>> On Sun, Nov 12, 2023, 12:36 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches <
>> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Friends:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I am still working on getting the E-vaults to play nice with the Sunny
>>> Islands and Sunny Boys.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> With Open loop I was getting significant discrepancies in the reporting
>>> of SOC in the e-vaults versus that reported by the SI inverters.  This
>>> discrepancy did not diminish over time.  The discrepancy caused
>>> unacceptable charging and generator operations.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I got Closed loop hooked up, but I found that every few days the SI
>>> inverters would shut down due to a battery over-voltage condition.  I
>>> believe that when the e-vaults are near 100% SOC the BMS units increase the
>>> battery impedance which means any charging current applied will cause the
>>> voltage spike I have been seeing.   I was able to measure these conditions
>>> myself on site, although they were very fleeting and required recording
>>> with the Fluke87 Min-Max function (love this meter!).
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I was able to extract log files from the Sunny Island primary inverter
>>> and perform some analysis.  It appears when I turned on remote BMS on the
>>> SI (as part of the Closed loop protocol) it disabled the Frequency-Shift
>>> Power Control.  This means the SI inverters have gone from having poor
>>> control over battery charging to having no control over battery charging.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I have documented my research here
>>> <https://millersolar.com/MillerSolar/case_studies/36_SIFortress/36_SunnyIslandFortressIntegration.html#Inhibit>.
>>> There is a table of contents to take you to the latest information.  I
>>> appreciate pertinent comments any of you might have.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> By the way, if anyone has called SMA tech support for help on a Sunny
>>> Island system, you have likely been asked to extract log files, zip them up
>>> and send them off for review (and waited a long time for a reply).  I am
>>> the kind of guy who does not like to wait for solutions and who likes to
>>> figure out things for himself.  I have taught myself how to evaluate those
>>> log files. I will be posting a web page on the subject.  In the meantime,
>>> if you are interested, two of my analysis Excel sheets are linked in the
>>> case study.  I will be expanding on this and providing resources to any
>>> integrator that wants that knowledge.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks in advance for any insight.  I hope I am wrong about this and I
>>> am just missing something.  I also hope revealing my headaches will help
>>> someone someday…
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> William
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Miller Solar
>>>
>>> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
>>>
>>> 805-

Re: [RE-wrenches] Integrating Fortress E-vault maxes into an SI AC-coupled system

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

2.7 k ohms = about 37 C. Digi key or I can send you a few.

William Miller
Miller Solar.com
805-438-5600
www.millersolar.com


On Sun, Nov 12, 2023 at 5:27 PM Roland - RES via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Jerry,
>
> I have an upcoming project where I will need to add the resister to
> eliminate and batt temp charging corrections. I have not done this before
> can you provide where I could find a twister to achieve this?
>
> Mahalo,
>
>
> Roland Shackelford
>
> President / Owner
>
> NABCEP PVIP #091209-162
>
> Office 808.775.7410
>
> Mobile 808.938.9239
>
> Power Solutions for Generations Renewable Energy Services, Inc.
> <https://www.renewablenergy.com/>
>
> " Where there is integrity, there will be trust. Where there is trust,
> there will be an atmosphere for success." - Sadhguru
>
> On Nov 12, 2023, at 10:51 AM, Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
> 
> Regarding the SI Inverters,for me it works best to eliminate the bat temp
> sensor and put in a resister set to be 75 degrees, this will prevent the
> charger over under charge issue.
> Fun times
>
> On Sun, Nov 12, 2023, 12:36 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
>> Friends:
>>
>>
>>
>> I am still working on getting the E-vaults to play nice with the Sunny
>> Islands and Sunny Boys.
>>
>>
>>
>> With Open loop I was getting significant discrepancies in the reporting
>> of SOC in the e-vaults versus that reported by the SI inverters.  This
>> discrepancy did not diminish over time.  The discrepancy caused
>> unacceptable charging and generator operations.
>>
>>
>>
>> I got Closed loop hooked up, but I found that every few days the SI
>> inverters would shut down due to a battery over-voltage condition.  I
>> believe that when the e-vaults are near 100% SOC the BMS units increase the
>> battery impedance which means any charging current applied will cause the
>> voltage spike I have been seeing.   I was able to measure these conditions
>> myself on site, although they were very fleeting and required recording
>> with the Fluke87 Min-Max function (love this meter!).
>>
>>
>>
>> I was able to extract log files from the Sunny Island primary inverter
>> and perform some analysis.  It appears when I turned on remote BMS on the
>> SI (as part of the Closed loop protocol) it disabled the Frequency-Shift
>> Power Control.  This means the SI inverters have gone from having poor
>> control over battery charging to having no control over battery charging.
>>
>>
>>
>> I have documented my research here
>> <https://millersolar.com/MillerSolar/case_studies/36_SIFortress/36_SunnyIslandFortressIntegration.html#Inhibit>.
>> There is a table of contents to take you to the latest information.  I
>> appreciate pertinent comments any of you might have.
>>
>>
>>
>> By the way, if anyone has called SMA tech support for help on a Sunny
>> Island system, you have likely been asked to extract log files, zip them up
>> and send them off for review (and waited a long time for a reply).  I am
>> the kind of guy who does not like to wait for solutions and who likes to
>> figure out things for himself.  I have taught myself how to evaluate those
>> log files. I will be posting a web page on the subject.  In the meantime,
>> if you are interested, two of my analysis Excel sheets are linked in the
>> case study.  I will be expanding on this and providing resources to any
>> integrator that wants that knowledge.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks in advance for any insight.  I hope I am wrong about this and I am
>> just missing something.  I also hope revealing my headaches will help
>> someone someday…
>>
>>
>>
>> William
>>
>>
>>
>> Miller Solar
>>
>> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
>>
>> 805-438-5600
>>
>> www.millersolar.com
>>
>> CA Lic. 773985
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ___
>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>>
>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org
>>
>> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>>
>> Change listserver email address & settings:
>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>>
>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the
>> other:
>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrench

Re: [RE-wrenches] Integrating Fortress E-vault maxes into an SI AC-coupled system

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Kirk:



There are a lot of misconceptions about AC Coupling in the industry.  I
think you may have fallen victim to one:



When you are feeding AC power backwards through a battery inverter, that
inverter cannot exert any control over the charging parameters.  You can
set bulk, absorption, float, EQ, any charge setting you can find, but if
your power source is AC-coupled (coming in through the out door), those
settings do not affect the charging at all.



Someone please slap me if I am wrong on this.



Those settings do apply if you have an AC source like a generator or grid
that is connected to an AC *input*.   We cannot connect grid-tied inverters
to any input because AC inputs do not create a mini-grid.



Furthermore, if you set a Sunny Island for battery type “Ext BMS”, you
cannot adjust those settings.  Pressing the buttons elicits wonky
responses. Pressing up arrow jumps to zeros…  Pressing the down arrow can
reduce settings but they will not be saved.  I have seen this and while
Fortress cannot replicate this in the lab, they have heard this reported.
(This Ext-BMS setting is only available with the latest firmware and by
initiating New battery or New system in the quick programming function.)



Until this moment I did not realize that this is another reason Closed loop
on a

Sunny Island is a non-starter:  If you can’t set charge parameters for
generator or grid battery charging then you have a system that cannot be
set to charge batteries from AC sources with precision.  If closed loop
does not work for this reason, and open loop does not track the critical
SOC values, then we may be out of options.  Maybe this is why SMA will not
talk to anyone with lithium batteries.



Hm…



William



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985





*From:* Kirk Bailey [mailto:k...@abundantsolar.com]
*Sent:* Sunday, November 12, 2023 3:05 PM
*To:* will...@millersolar.com; RE-wrenches
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Integrating Fortress E-vault maxes into an SI
AC-coupled system



I went back and looked at my notes on my recent adventure with closed loop
SI to eFlex Fortress, and one thing I had noted at the time is that
Fortress recommends 2.2V, 2.26V, and 2.3V for the setting for ChrgVtgFlo
(220-10), depending on which of three Fortress docs I read.  I think I
ended up setting it to 2.26V after some experimentation.



I can imagine a scenario where the voltage gets *slightly* too high,
activating the most trigger-happy of the battery's BMS's, and the resulting
sudden partial loss in load then causes a transitory voltage surge from the
SI, which then...



Cheers,



Kirk Bailey

k...@abundantsolar.com





On Sun, Nov 12, 2023 at 2:36 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

Jay:



Good question. I assumed some kind of FET circuit but that is only my
assumption.



However an open relay exhibits some fairly high impedance.



The symptoms indicate the SI shuts down but the batteries remain connected.
Something allows 69 volts on the battery terminals…


William Miller
Miller Solar.com
805-438-5600
www.millersolar.com





On Sun, Nov 12, 2023 at 2:22 PM Jay via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

Maybe someone else knows differently but it was explained to me that the
fortress batteries have a relay that disconnects the battery if the voltage
gets to high or low. There isn’t any electronic  device to change battery
impedance besides what the actual cells are doing.



Jay



On Nov 12, 2023, at 12:50 PM, Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:



Regarding the SI Inverters,for me it works best to eliminate the bat temp
sensor and put in a resister set to be 75 degrees, this will prevent the
charger over under charge issue.

Fun times



On Sun, Nov 12, 2023, 12:36 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

Friends:



I am still working on getting the E-vaults to play nice with the Sunny
Islands and Sunny Boys.



With Open loop I was getting significant discrepancies in the reporting of
SOC in the e-vaults versus that reported by the SI inverters.  This
discrepancy did not diminish over time.  The discrepancy caused
unacceptable charging and generator operations.



I got Closed loop hooked up, but I found that every few days the SI
inverters would shut down due to a battery over-voltage condition.  I
believe that when the e-vaults are near 100% SOC the BMS units increase the
battery impedance which means any charging current applied will cause the
voltage spike I have been seeing.   I was able to measure these conditions
myself on site, although they were very fleeting and required recording
with the Fluke87 Min-Max function (love this meter!).



I was able to extract log files from the Sunny Island primary inverter and
perform some analysis.  It appears when I turned on remot

Re: [RE-wrenches] Integrating Fortress E-vault maxes into an SI AC-coupled system

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Jay:



I think that is what usually happens.  During one occurrence 2 of the 5
batteries did shut down.



William



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985





*From:* Jay [mailto:jay.pe...@gmail.com]
*Sent:* Sunday, November 12, 2023 3:08 PM
*To:* will...@millersolar.com; RE-wrenches
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Integrating Fortress E-vault maxes into an SI
AC-coupled system



Interesting

The high voltage disconnect is 58.4v.

Reconnect is 54.4v.



Maybe if the spike is fast enough the inverter trips off before the battery
shuts off?



Jay



On Nov 12, 2023, at 2:35 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:



Jay:



Good question. I assumed some kind of FET circuit but that is only my
assumption.



However an open relay exhibits some fairly high impedance.



The symptoms indicate the SI shuts down but the batteries remain connected.
Something allows 69 volts on the battery terminals…


William Miller
Miller Solar.com
805-438-5600
www.millersolar.com





On Sun, Nov 12, 2023 at 2:22 PM Jay via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

Maybe someone else knows differently but it was explained to me that the
fortress batteries have a relay that disconnects the battery if the voltage
gets too high or low. There isn’t any electronic  device to change battery
impedance besides what the actual cells are doing.



Jay



On Nov 12, 2023, at 12:50 PM, Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:



Regarding the SI Inverters, for me it works best to eliminate the bat temp
sensor and put in a resister set to be 75 degrees, this will prevent the
charger over under charge issue.

Fun times



On Sun, Nov 12, 2023, 12:36 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

Friends:



I am still working on getting the E-vaults to play nice with the Sunny
Islands and Sunny Boys.



With Open loop I was getting significant discrepancies in the reporting of
SOC in the e-vaults versus that reported by the SI inverters.  This
discrepancy did not diminish over time.  The discrepancy caused
unacceptable charging and generator operations.



I got Closed loop hooked up, but I found that every few days the SI
inverters would shut down due to a battery over-voltage condition.  I
believe that when the e-vaults are near 100% SOC the BMS units increase the
battery impedance which means any charging current applied will cause the
voltage spike I have been seeing.   I was able to measure these conditions
myself on site, although they were very fleeting and required recording
with the Fluke87 Min-Max function (love this meter!).



I was able to extract log files from the Sunny Island primary inverter and
perform some analysis.  It appears when I turned on remote BMS on the SI
(as part of the Closed loop protocol) it disabled the Frequency-Shift Power
Control.  This means the SI inverters have gone from having poor control
over battery charging to having no control over battery charging.



I have documented my research here
<https://millersolar.com/MillerSolar/case_studies/36_SIFortress/36_SunnyIslandFortressIntegration.html#Inhibit>.
There is a table of contents to take you to the latest information.  I
appreciate pertinent comments any of you might have.



By the way, if anyone has called SMA tech support for help on a Sunny
Island system, you have likely been asked to extract log files, zip them up
and send them off for review (and waited a long time for a reply).  I am
the kind of guy who does not like to wait for solutions and who likes to
figure out things for himself.  I have taught myself how to evaluate those
log files. I will be posting a web page on the subject.  In the meantime,
if you are interested, two of my analysis Excel sheets are linked in the
case study.  I will be expanding on this and providing resources to any
integrator that wants that knowledge.



Thanks in advance for any insight.  I hope I am wrong about this and I am
just missing something.  I also hope revealing my headaches will help
someone someday…



William



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985





___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Integrating Fortress E-vault maxes into an SI AC-coupled system

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Jay:

Good question. I assumed some kind of FET circuit but that is only my
assumption.

However an open relay exhibits some fairly high impedance.

The symptoms indicate the SI shuts down but the batteries remain connected.
Something allows 69 volts on the battery terminals…

William Miller
Miller Solar.com
805-438-5600
www.millersolar.com


On Sun, Nov 12, 2023 at 2:22 PM Jay via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Maybe someone else knows differently but it was explained to me that the
> fortress batteries have a relay that disconnects the battery if the voltage
> gets to high or low. There isn’t any electronic  device to change battery
> impedance besides what the actual cells are doing.
>
> Jay
>
> On Nov 12, 2023, at 12:50 PM, Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
> 
> Regarding the SI Inverters,for me it works best to eliminate the bat temp
> sensor and put in a resister set to be 75 degrees, this will prevent the
> charger over under charge issue.
> Fun times
>
> On Sun, Nov 12, 2023, 12:36 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
>> Friends:
>>
>>
>>
>> I am still working on getting the E-vaults to play nice with the Sunny
>> Islands and Sunny Boys.
>>
>>
>>
>> With Open loop I was getting significant discrepancies in the reporting
>> of SOC in the e-vaults versus that reported by the SI inverters.  This
>> discrepancy did not diminish over time.  The discrepancy caused
>> unacceptable charging and generator operations.
>>
>>
>>
>> I got Closed loop hooked up, but I found that every few days the SI
>> inverters would shut down due to a battery over-voltage condition.  I
>> believe that when the e-vaults are near 100% SOC the BMS units increase the
>> battery impedance which means any charging current applied will cause the
>> voltage spike I have been seeing.   I was able to measure these conditions
>> myself on site, although they were very fleeting and required recording
>> with the Fluke87 Min-Max function (love this meter!).
>>
>>
>>
>> I was able to extract log files from the Sunny Island primary inverter
>> and perform some analysis.  It appears when I turned on remote BMS on the
>> SI (as part of the Closed loop protocol) it disabled the Frequency-Shift
>> Power Control.  This means the SI inverters have gone from having poor
>> control over battery charging to having no control over battery charging.
>>
>>
>>
>> I have documented my research here
>> <https://millersolar.com/MillerSolar/case_studies/36_SIFortress/36_SunnyIslandFortressIntegration.html#Inhibit>.
>> There is a table of contents to take you to the latest information.  I
>> appreciate pertinent comments any of you might have.
>>
>>
>>
>> By the way, if anyone has called SMA tech support for help on a Sunny
>> Island system, you have likely been asked to extract log files, zip them up
>> and send them off for review (and waited a long time for a reply).  I am
>> the kind of guy who does not like to wait for solutions and who likes to
>> figure out things for himself.  I have taught myself how to evaluate those
>> log files. I will be posting a web page on the subject.  In the meantime,
>> if you are interested, two of my analysis Excel sheets are linked in the
>> case study.  I will be expanding on this and providing resources to any
>> integrator that wants that knowledge.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks in advance for any insight.  I hope I am wrong about this and I am
>> just missing something.  I also hope revealing my headaches will help
>> someone someday…
>>
>>
>>
>> William
>>
>>
>>
>> Miller Solar
>>
>> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
>>
>> 805-438-5600
>>
>> www.millersolar.com
>>
>> CA Lic. 773985
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ___
>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>>
>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org
>>
>> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>>
>> Change listserver email address & settings:
>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>>
>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the
>> other:
>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>>
>> List rules & etiquette:
>> http

[RE-wrenches] Integrating Fortress E-vault maxes into an SI AC-coupled system

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Friends:



I am still working on getting the E-vaults to play nice with the Sunny
Islands and Sunny Boys.



With Open loop I was getting significant discrepancies in the reporting of
SOC in the e-vaults versus that reported by the SI inverters.  This
discrepancy did not diminish over time.  The discrepancy caused
unacceptable charging and generator operations.



I got Closed loop hooked up, but I found that every few days the SI
inverters would shut down due to a battery over-voltage condition.  I
believe that when the e-vaults are near 100% SOC the BMS units increase the
battery impedance which means any charging current applied will cause the
voltage spike I have been seeing.   I was able to measure these conditions
myself on site, although they were very fleeting and required recording
with the Fluke87 Min-Max function (love this meter!).



I was able to extract log files from the Sunny Island primary inverter and
perform some analysis.  It appears when I turned on remote BMS on the SI
(as part of the Closed loop protocol) it disabled the Frequency-Shift Power
Control.  This means the SI inverters have gone from having poor control
over battery charging to having no control over battery charging.



I have documented my research here
<https://millersolar.com/MillerSolar/case_studies/36_SIFortress/36_SunnyIslandFortressIntegration.html#Inhibit>.
There is a table of contents to take you to the latest information.  I
appreciate pertinent comments any of you might have.



By the way, if anyone has called SMA tech support for help on a Sunny
Island system, you have likely been asked to extract log files, zip them up
and send them off for review (and waited a long time for a reply).  I am
the kind of guy who does not like to wait for solutions and who likes to
figure out things for himself.  I have taught myself how to evaluate those
log files. I will be posting a web page on the subject.  In the meantime,
if you are interested, two of my analysis Excel sheets are linked in the
case study.  I will be expanding on this and providing resources to any
integrator that wants that knowledge.



Thanks in advance for any insight.  I hope I am wrong about this and I am
just missing something.  I also hope revealing my headaches will help
someone someday…



William



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Cable sizing for high current modules? NEC interpretation/guidance?

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

George:



Appliance manufacturers have their own requirements that are not the same
as the NEC requirements.  As long as you are not modifying the manufactured
assembly you are not responsible for compliance of that appliance.  By
appliance, I mean the solar module, microinverter, etc.



William Miller



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985





*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
Behalf Of *George McClellan via RE-wrenches
*Sent:* Wednesday, November 8, 2023 9:06 AM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Cc:* George McClellan
*Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Cable sizing for high current modules? NEC
interpretation/guidance?



Team;



With the move to larger cells, some modules have an Isc that is pushing the
limits of 12 AWG wire.  If I apply the rule of 156% (or 125% solar
derate*125% continuous load derate) to an 18 Amp Isc module this will
exceed the 25A that a 12 AWG wire can carry.  I understand that the
homeruns will need to be a larger AWG (10 ga), but do the solar module
cables (from junction box to MC4) also need to be larger?  Any guidance or
reference material would be greatly appreciated.



Thx,



George McClellan | Senior Technical Sales Manager | REC Americas LLC

330 James Way Ste 150 | Pismo Beach, CA 93449 | USA

Cell phone +1 805 704 3226 | Fax +1 805 357 6104

www.recgroup.com | george.mcclel...@recgroup.com 




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Re: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Jason:



Thanks for contributing to this thread.  I did not realize it would create
so much interest.  My main point is to establish a definition for
AC-coupling, and I believe we do have consensus on that.  The next question
to ask is AC-coupling a good thing?



You make the point that BMS systems protect lithium batteries from damage.
They do so by shutting down, not correcting the problem.  But what good is
a system that shuts down?  When that happens someone has to roll a truck to
reset the system.  We should not design outages into our systems.



I spoke at length this weekend with a very knowledgeable member of this
forum (thank you, sir) about closed loop.  Their experience is that there
were packet losses in the communications and when that occurred the system
shut down.  I am going to set up my first closed loop today and I hope I do
not have the same experience.



Traditional charge controllers may seem “crude” but they operate on real,
measured values of voltage and current, values that are at the core of
battery care.  Modern charging systems seem to rely at least partially on
sate of charge.  State of charge is a calculated value that is notorious
for being inaccurate and drifting more so over time.  Every SOC scheme I
know needs to be recalibrated frequently.  The recalibration requires
hitting certain charge parameters and if you can’t hit those you don’t
recalibrate.



I assumed that a BMS system provided within a lithium battery assembly by
the manufacturer would be accurate.  I spoke with a tech support person
from a prominent LFP manufacturer at length recently and was told their BMS
is not foolproof on calculating SOC.  I am not confident that any of them
are.



I am new to lithium battery systems.  It may be my inexperience talking,
but it seems they incorporate a lot of complexity that may make them
unreliable unless charged and discharged very carefully.  I do not believe
AC-coupled charging is a good way to charge lithium batteries, or any
battery.



William Miller



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985





*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches
*Sent:* Monday, October 30, 2023 7:33 AM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Cc:* Jason Szumlanski
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling



I read through this thread, and I don't think one important aspect was
covered with respect to "overcharging" batteries. There may be risk with
lead acid batteries connected to a hybrid inverter that is AC coupled. But
LiPO batteries have a BMS that is there, in part, to protect the battery
from an overcharge scenario. The BMS is going to disconnect the battery
before catastrophe strikes. In my opinion, AC Coupling is better suited to
modern equipment that talks to each other in a closed loop. Crude
algorithms for throttling PV don't seem particularly confidence-inspiring.
This is one argument for sticking with a single manufacturer system
architecture (i.e. Enphase). While there are obvious downsides and
limitations to that, the system should work safely and flawlessly in an AC
Coupled scenario.



With respect to mixed systems with DC and AC Coupling, while I see the
advantages, it really complicates the design and installation. It also
greatly confuses the monitoring aspect for PV production. I think it
depends on the scenario, but going one way or the other makes the most
sense to me in most situations. With that said, there are exceptions. For
example, I have a Sol-Ark 15K client right now where all of the MPPT inputs
are taken, and reconfiguring the DC coupled strings is not easily achieved.
So, to add more PV, the obvious choice is to AC couple. But this system has
a generator, so the AC Coupled PV needs to be on the AC load output,
meaning it will not be monitored by the Sol-Ark. That's not ideal, but it's
nice to have that flexibility.


Jason Szumlanski

Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group
NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP)
Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956





On Sun, Oct 29, 2023 at 4:19 PM Kienan Maxfield via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

William,



My whole email is in regards to the point you made when you said

"This is not how battery inverters were originally designed to operate.
These systems require careful consideration to avoid battery overcharging."



I both agree and disagree with these statements... depending on what you
mean. I don't think it's super helpful to say that careful considerations
are required without mentioning what those considerations are, and I'll get
to those below.











When you say that the battery inverters "weren't *originally* designed for
this" I'd agree to an extent.. The "original" battery based inverters 25
years ago were certainly not designed for AC coupling. They weren't
"originally&

Re: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Jay:



I am not sure how it would be possible for a grid-tied inverter to operate
with any battery inverter if it was not connected to the battery inverter
AC output.  The grid-tied inverter needs to see correct voltage and
frequency before it can start up.  How else could this work?



I looked up all of the inverters you cited.  In each case it may look to
you like you are connecting to an input, it is really just reprogramming
the inverter to turn the generator input into an extra output.  All of the
manufacturers provide warnings about doing this.  Here is more information
from each of the manufacturers:



Sol-arc:  From the manual for the Sol-arc 15K-2P-N: You convert the Gen
input to an output and make that your connection point.  “*A full AC
coupled solar system is not recommended as power control and monitoring is
limited.”*



EG4:  I could not find an “ev4” inverter anywhere online.  There is an EG4
inverter.  I read the manual and it looks like the EG4 works just like the
Sol-arc:  You program the generator input to actually be an output.  The
EG4 abruptly disconnects that output when battery SOC reaches a programmed
level-- There is apparently no frequency shift function.  The manual is
pretty inadequate on this point but they do provide a video
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vRAq9g34VcI_channel=EG4Electronics>.



Fortress:  The same as above is true about using the generator input for
AC-coupling on the Fortress FP-Envy-12k.  From that manual*:  It is
forbidden to connect the Generator in Gen Port when AC Coupled.  *That is
because when AC-coupling, the generator input is no longer an input.



So while it appears one connects an AC-Coupled inverter to battery inverter
inputs, it is just a reprogramming of the generator input to be an output.
In all cases that I can see there is still no voltage control of AC-coupled
battery charging.



I am aware that to try and provide some modicum of control over the battery
charging from AC-coupled sources, a scheme was invented to shift the output
frequency and taper or shut down AC-coupled power.  This is a work-around,
not a design.  In each and every one of these systems it is pretty clear
there is little control over battery charging voltage.  These systems do
not support three stage battery charging like a DC charge controller can.



When AC-coupled charging is connected to batteries with BMS in certain
conditions battery voltage spikes can occur.  See section 2.2 of this
article. <https://www.victronenergy.com/live/ac_coupling:start>



There are limited advantages to AC coupling:



·AC coupling allows reduced wire gauge for long-haul feeders.  This
is no longer as necessary with new 600 volt input charge controllers.



·AC Coupling allows an easier upgrade path for a customer that has
grid-tied inverters and wants to add batteries.  I am not sure most
batteries can survive for long with the crude charging algorithm provided,
so I would hesitate to recommend this.



In my opinion AC-coupled battery charging with even the newest inverters is
a crude affair.  I am not a fan.



William



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985





*From:* Jay [mailto:jay.pe...@gmail.com]
*Sent:* Saturday, October 28, 2023 1:58 PM
*To:* will...@millersolar.com; RE-wrenches
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling



I’m going to both agree and disagree



Agree The older inverters ( Schneider, Outback, etc) your drawing is
correct.



Disagree For many new inverters ( sol ark, ev4, fortress) they bring ac
coupling into the inverter directly.

Usually on the generator input and not in the backup loads panel.



And I will also disagree about the statement that these inverters are not
designed for ac coupling.

Agreed that the earlier non rule 21 compliant versions didn’t have any
internal control and required external relay control to prevent overcharge.



Newer versions of Schneider, OB, have  frequently shift which works with
newer gt inverters to address the ac coupling overcharge concerns. While
creating potential new issues for loads with up to 64 hz.





Jay











On Oct 28, 2023, at 2:15 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:



Friends:



I am starting to get the impression that there is a diversion on the
understanding of the definition of AC coupling within the industry.  I
think this definition needs to be clarified.



Below is a diagram of what I understand is a DC coupled system (I hope
these diagrams come through):







A battery inverter that receives AC power into an AC input port is *not* AC
coupled.



Here is an AC-coupled system:







What makes AC-Coupled systems unique are the problems presented by sending
power *backwards* through a battery inverter.  This is not how battery
inverters were originally designed to operate.  These systems require
careful consideration to avoid battery over

[RE-wrenches] AC Coupling

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Friends:



I am starting to get the impression that there is a diversion on the
understanding of the definition of AC coupling within the industry.  I
think this definition needs to be clarified.



Below is a diagram of what I understand is a DC coupled system (I hope
these diagrams come through):





A battery inverter that receives AC power into an AC input port is *not* AC
coupled.



Here is an AC-coupled system:





What makes AC-Coupled systems unique are the problems presented by sending
power *backwards* through a battery inverter.  This is not how battery
inverters were originally designed to operate.  These systems require
careful consideration to avoid battery overcharging.



Do we have consensus on this definition?



William Miller



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback Radian Generator Charging

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Amos:



At the risk of stating the obvious:  The batteries have to be ready to
accept maximum charge.  They need to be in good condition and fully
discharged.  Max charge amps will occur only briefly then the charge rate
will start to taper.  Your charging settings need to be correct including
temperature compensation.  Any other charge inputs need to be disabled
during testing, such as solar, wind or hydro.



Check for THD on the generator output.  If the waveform deviates much from
sinusoidal the inherent power will be reduced.  Radians have been known to
instigate high THD rates on generator feeds during charging, especially in
Generator input mode.  Trying the Support mode is good advice.



(We had this case
<https://millersolar.com/MillerSolar/case_studies/25_GFI%20Tripping/GFI_Tripping.html>
a while back.  Recently a random person called to relate he had similar
problems and found our case study.  He installed a capacitor (20mFd?) on
the generator leads and the THD decreased significantly.  I have not tried
this.)



William



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985





*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
Behalf Of *Amos Post via RE-wrenches
*Sent:* Wednesday, October 25, 2023 12:23 PM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Cc:* Amos Post
*Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Outback Radian Generator Charging



Hello wrenches,



We just installed an GS8048a Radian build with Mate 3SL controller (no
Optics).  We are having some with charging from the generator, as the
generator charging seems to be limited to about 4500Watts +/- (20amps AC)
when charging through the Radian.  It is a Kohler 8.5RES generator and we
have the AC input limit set to 30amps and the Gen input set to 30amps.  The
house load is only about 200Watts when we are charging.  The system is at
2200ft of elevation, but I don’t know if that makes enough of a difference.

The Gen output voltage seems pretty good and holds around 234V-236V while
charging.



Any thoughts as to why it may be limiting would be appreciated.



Thanks,

Amos



   Amos Post
   Integrity Energy
  W 802.763.7023
   C 802.291.2188
ienergyVT.com <http://www.ienergyvt.com>

Facebook <https://www.facebook.com/integrityenergyllp?ref=hl>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Schneider Tech Support

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

What is the magic extension number?

William Miller
Miller Solar.com
805-438-5600
www.millersolar.com


On Tue, Oct 24, 2023 at 11:24 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via
RE-wrenches  wrote:

> Some of you folks are using really old Phone info.The number changed
> almost 3 years ago I believe.
>
> 1 833 391 8640  5 am to 8 pm Pacific time
>
> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
> "we go where powerlines don't"
><http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/>https://offgridsolar1.com/ 
> <https://offgridsolar1.com/>  <http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/>
> e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net 
> text 209 813 0060*
>
>
> On 2023-10-24 10:38 am, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches wrote:
>
>  *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
> "we go where powerlines don't"
><http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/>https://offgridsolar1.com/ 
> <https://offgridsolar1.com/>  <http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/>
> e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net 
> text 209 813 0060*
>
>
> On 2023-10-23 8:16 pm, Vince McClellan via RE-wrenches wrote:
>
> Hi Michael
> I appreciate the info. I'll give that a try tomorrow. Even though I
> haven't used Schneider equipment much in the last few years, I still have a
> bunch of systems out there with their products.
>
>
> Vince McClellan
>
> Energy Design
>
> NABCEP PV Installation Professional
>
> p. (541) 485-8122  f. (541) 338-8202
>
> If you have received this email and are not the intended recipient, please
> delete this email. Copying or using any part, content, or attachment of
> this email is strictly prohibited.
>
>
> On Mon, Oct 23, 2023 at 5:36 PM Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
> Vince,
> You'll want to  register with them and get the "special number". You'll
> also get the grid code password. I tried reaching them two weeks ago and
> last week and couldn't get through. Kinda bummed as Schneider has been my
> go to for several years.
>
> On Mon, Oct 23, 2023 at 5:29 PM Vince McClellan via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
> Hello
> Have any of you been in contact with tech support at Schneider? I haven't
> worked with their equipment in several years. I'm working on repairing
> another contractor's system, and when I tried to call tech support in the
> middle of the day, no one answered the call. I remember several years ago
> there was a special number to press once you were in the Schneider tech
> support answering system, but if you followed the prompts you wouldn't
> actually get to tech support.
>
> Thanks in advance to anyone who can help,
>
> Vince McClellan
>
> Energy Design
>
> NABCEP PV Installation Professional
>
> p. (541) 485-8122  f. (541) 338-8202
>
> If you have received this email and are not the intended recipient, please
> delete this email. Copying or using any part, content, or attachment of
> this email is strictly prohibited.
>
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> --
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>
>
> Michael Morningstar
>
>
>
> Morningstar Electric
>
> PO Box 1494
>
> Mount Shasta, CA 96067
>
> 530-921-0560
>
> mjmornings...@gmail.com
>
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[RE-wrenches] Sunny Island AC-Coupled system integration with Fortress E-Vault

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Friends:



This situation is as yet unresolved.  It is complicated enough I created a web
page
<https://millersolar.com/MillerSolar/case_studies/36_SIFortress/36_SunnyIslandFortressIntegration.html>
to describe the scenario so I did not have to explain it over and over.  I
submitted this to Fortress tech support.  They said they had likely not
tested the Fortress compatibility with SI in an AC-Coupled system.



While Fortress technicians and/or engineers ponder the situation I am
brainstorming solutions.  One idea is to convert to a DC coupled system.
DC Charge controllers will have intrinsically better voltage control.  The
charge controller most likely suitable is the Schneider 600 volt 100 amp
unit.  I would need two of them.  It is compatible with the existing string
wiring.  In researching it many questions came up about that product’s
suitability.  There is an integration guide for a Schneider system and
Fortress but this would be a mixed system of Schneider and SMA.  Would I be
able to apply closed loop communication to both systems?  Could the charge
controllers work in open loop?  Has anyone tried anything like this?



I will keep you apprised.



William Miller



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Schneider Tech Support

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Vince:



My notes indicate:  (833) 391-8640.  Wait for menu options and press 8.
It’s been a while since I called.  I am not impressed by the product line
or tech support.



Good luck.



William Miller



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985





*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
Behalf Of *Vince McClellan via RE-wrenches
*Sent:* Monday, October 23, 2023 5:28 PM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Cc:* Vince McClellan
*Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Schneider Tech Support



Hello

Have any of you been in contact with tech support at Schneider? I haven't
worked with their equipment in several years. I'm working on repairing
another contractor's system, and when I tried to call tech support in the
middle of the day, no one answered the call. I remember several years ago
there was a special number to press once you were in the Schneider tech
support answering system, but if you followed the prompts you wouldn't
actually get to tech support.



Thanks in advance to anyone who can help,


Vince McClellan

Energy Design

NABCEP PV Installation Professional

p. (541) 485-8122  f. (541) 338-8202



If you have received this email and are not the intended recipient, please
delete this email. Copying or using any part, content, or attachment of
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Need a hand with Sunny Island/Sunny boy AC couple

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

12 kw PV nominal. Low tilt angle and old panels so reality is far less.
5 e-vault 18.5 kWh batteries
4 SI 6048
2 SB 6000 US

System operational for some years with flooded batteries. Just installed
the e-vaults. I reset the system to factory defaults. I am not sure how to
verify the system will properly offset frequency if batteries are full.

Having just written this I realize there is a discrepancy between the SOC
the SIs report (46%) and the SOC the e-vaults report (98%). It could be the
SIs want to push a lot of charge to the e-vaults but they won’t accept the
charge because they are charged.

I installed 3 of the vaults temporarily a week ago. At first there was a
large discrepancy between SOC from batteries to SIs. Eventually that delta
reduced to 4%. Maybe this problem will resolve itself?

What settings on the SI are necessary to enable frequency shifting?

Thanks everyone for the response. There is nothing worse than being on-site
and not knowing how to get a system to operate. I shut off the PV and will
let the generator fill in the deficit until Monday.

William Miller
Miller Solar.com
805-438-5600
www.millersolar.com


On Sat, Oct 21, 2023 at 4:57 PM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> What is the array size vs the battery size?  Sounds like a big array on a
> small battery for the voltage to go that high that fast.
>
> Ray
> Remote Solar
> On 10/21/2023 5:46 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches wrote:
>
> Friends:
>
> I’m kinda stuck on a project setting up a SI/SB AC coupled system off
> grid. When the SB inverters ramp up the battery voltage jumps to 69 pretty
> quickly and the system shuts off.
>
> I checked the mini-grid frequency and it does ramp up to about 62+ but
> apparently not soon enough to curtail charging. I shut off the SBs for now
> and we can rely on generator.
>
> Any advice via email or a phone call would be appreciated.  SMA can be
> less than helpful, especially for systems with lithium batteries.
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
> William Miller
> Miller Solar.com
> 805-438-5600
> www.millersolar.com
>
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[RE-wrenches] Need a hand with Sunny Island/Sunny boy AC couple

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Friends:

I’m kinda stuck on a project setting up a SI/SB AC coupled system off grid.
When the SB inverters ramp up the battery voltage jumps to 69 pretty
quickly and the system shuts off.

I checked the mini-grid frequency and it does ramp up to about 62+ but
apparently not soon enough to curtail charging. I shut off the SBs for now
and we can rely on generator.

Any advice via email or a phone call would be appreciated.  SMA can be less
than helpful, especially for systems with lithium batteries.

Thanks in advance.

William Miller
Miller Solar.com
805-438-5600
www.millersolar.com
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[RE-wrenches] Sunny Island remote alerts

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Friends:

How can one read error and/or warning code either via Sunny Portal or port
forwarding a Webbbox?

I can see charts galore on the Portal but I can’t find error or warning
logs.

Also, I get alerts via email but they are vague, as in “3xx” or “7xx”.

Apologies if this is a dumb question.

William Miller
Miller Solar.com
805-438-5600
www.millersolar.com
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Well pump with Sol-Ark

[William Bryce via RE-wrenches]

For high surge and unbalanced splitphase loads, you can’t beat a Midnite
Solar Rosie Inverter.  It uses Sic FET’s and is rock solid. I have an early
unit and it’s starts my 5hp compressor and still runs other loads without a
flicker.

Runs loads that even my Schneider XW+ would not.  Why complicate the
installs with a VFD? Just install an inverter that can do what you need it
to do?

On Wed, Oct 11, 2023 at 1:00 PM frenergy via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Interesting the variation in experiences. Most of my jobs are off-grid
> these days which almost always means a (reliable) well pump need.  I'd
> entertain the idea of 3-phase with VFD but that's quite a bit more  initial
> expense for this customer and possible higher long term costs with the VFD
> equipment?  Once again, the value of being transformer based (unlike the
> Sol-Ark) for surge.
>
> Bill
>
> Feather River Solar Electric
> Bill Battagin, Owner
> 4291 Nelson St.(shipping) 5575 Genesee Rd 
> . 
> (USPS, UPS)
> Taylorsville, CA 95983
> 530.284.1925 Office/ 530.258.1641 Cell
> CA Lic 874049
> Solar powered since 1982
>
> On 10/11/2023 7:35 AM, Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches wrote:
>
> Hi Bill,
>
> I have yet to have an issue with the Sol Ark 12K and water pumps. We have
> numerous off-grid installations with 3/4 HP well pumps with no issues. I
> tend to find that compressors and inductive motor loads like chop saws are
> often an issue.
>
> Hope this helps,
>
> Chris
>
> On Wed, Oct 11, 2023 at 10:19 AM Jay via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
>> I’d look at a 3 phase pump with vfd/soft start control and eliminate the
>> start surge.
>>
>> Jay
>>
>>
>>
>> > On Oct 11, 2023, at 8:12 AM, frenergy via RE-wrenches <
>> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>> >
>> > 
>> > I'm looking for opinions and/or real world experience on recommendation
>> for the largest 240V submersible well pump the Sol-Ark 12KW inverter can
>> start/run.  Assume 500 watt load prior to starting the pump, static level
>> of water in well is 75 feet, system psi when it starts is 40.
>> >
>> > Thanks,
>> >
>> > Bill
>> >
>> > Feather River Solar Electric
>> > Bill Battagin, Owner
>> > 4291 Nelson St.(s
>> 
>> hipping)
>> > 5575 Genesee Rd
>> .
>> (USPS, UPS)
>> > Taylorsville, CA 95983
>> > 530.284.1925 Office/ 530.258.1641 Cell
>> > CA Lic 874049
>> > Solar powered since 1982
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> >
>
>
>
> 
> Virus-free.www.avast.com
> 
> <#m_-2547911529825450838_m_-8743225692392957001_m_883597431555829303_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island/Fortress E-vault

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Glenn:



Thank you for that important clarification.  I keep mixing up the concept
of Fortress supporting the integration with SMA versus SMA not supporting
the integration with Fortress.



Fortress is all over how you make the marriage work.  When I spoke with SMA
to ask a question unrelated to the battery choice, I let slip that I was
integrating Fortress batteries.  It was like a switch had been flipped:
The telephone support tech almost hung up on me.  I was told that if you
are connecting Sunny Islands to Fortress batteries all tech support on any
subject would be suspended.  I needled the answer I was looking for out of
the dude but it was given very reluctantly.



This is very awkward.  When I was asked to bid this job I did what I
thought was due diligence by looking thoroughly at the Fortress site for
guidance.  I assumed if Fortress thought the coupling would be happy, SMA
felt the same way.  I must admit it reminded me of many of my romantic
relationships.  I got a bit of PTSD just thinking about it.



I hope this does not cause problems getting information out of SMA in the
future. Fortunately for me the warranty is long over.  Also fortunate for
me is the resource of the experience pool here at the good old wrenches
forum.  Thanks to all of you for chiming in.



William Miller



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985





*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
Behalf Of *Glenn Burt via RE-wrenches
*Sent:* Tuesday, September 19, 2023 6:43 PM
*To:* Kienan Maxfield via RE-wrenches
*Cc:* Glenn Burt
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island/Fortress E-vault



In my comversations with SMA, they made it clear they do not support closed
loop comms with anyone at this time.

YMMV



-Glenn

Sent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors.



-- Original message--

*From: *Kienan Maxfield via RE-wrenches

*Date: *Tue, Sep 19, 2023 3:17 PM

*To: *RE-wrenches;

*Cc: *Kienan Maxfield;

*Subject:*Re: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island/Fortress E-vault



That's actually incorrect, Fortress totally does support closed-loop with
the SMA Sunny Island inverters. Here is their integration guide. This has
all of the instructions and coms wiring, etc. -
https://learn.fortresspower.com/external/manual/sma/article/introduction-useful-links?p=dc8b9a9c1b3f410556835193e66f2257c662403dfb3da4056e618e954e8381d2



Thanks,



Kienan Maxfield
Technical sales, Technical Support

*Green-Go Solar Distribution*

*kienan@dist.solar *

*(801) 631-5584 <(801)%20631-5584> (Cell)*

*www.distribution.solar <https://www.distribution.solar/>*






--

*From:* RE-wrenches > on
behalf of Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches

<%3cre-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org>>
<%3cre-wrenc...@lists.re-wrenches.org>
*Sent:* Saturday, September 16, 2023 8:33 AM
*To:* RE-wrenches >
<%3cre-wrenc...@lists.re-wrenches.org>
*Cc:* Kirk Herander >
<%3ckirkh@vermont.solar>
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island/Fortress E-vault



Jerry,



Who is the maker of the Blue Planet/Outback SOC box interface you mention?



On Sat, Sep 16, 2023 at 9:30 AM Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

Mac, wrenches

SMA and fortress can only open loop and with a fixed temp sender its fine.
Now on the blue planet and open loop with outback, you need a SOC box that
they can make for you, it will interface with the blue planet and command
the genny.

Fun times



On Sat, Sep 16, 2023, 6:04 AM Mac Lewis  wrote:

Hi William,



Are you doing open loop or closed loop communication?  I'm not sure if
Fortress can do a closed loop with SMA or not.



We struggled to get the open loop to work well with some Blue Ion
batteries, not from a charging sense but from a sense of getting the auto
gen start to trigger correctly.  Basically, the SOC algorithm was always
way off.  For a while we were using an external voltage trigger and we
could get the generator to start OK before BMS shutdown.  We have since
added a Namaka box and are using the "Ext BMS" setting for battery type in
the Sunny Island and it has been working very well.



I think the difficulty arises because the Sunny Island is so
State-of-Charge centric and you can't manipulate the SOC algorithm without
that Ext-BMS setting (and solid communication).  One weakness of the
ext BMS setting is that it won't fall back on Voltage settings if battery
communication goes down, but this is a weakness throughout closed loop
communication for many manufacturers.



Let us know if there is a Fortress to SMA communication solution.











On Fri, Sep 15, 2023 at 11:11 PM Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

William, Wrenches

Yes I do and it does require some basic electronics to make it work
correctly, you will need to remove the t

Re: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island/Fortress E-vault

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Kieran:

I have read the documentation. Fortress tech support said there have been
problems and recommended open loop.

Do you know what parameters are passed with closed loop?

William Miller
Miller Solar.com
805-438-5600
www.millersolar.com


On Tue, Sep 19, 2023 at 12:18 PM Kienan Maxfield via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> That's actually incorrect, Fortress totally does support closed-loop with
> the SMA Sunny Island inverters. Here is their integration guide. This has
> all of the instructions and coms wiring, etc. -
> https://learn.fortresspower.com/external/manual/sma/article/introduction-useful-links?p=dc8b9a9c1b3f410556835193e66f2257c662403dfb3da4056e618e954e8381d2
>
> Thanks,
>
> Kienan Maxfield
> Technical sales, Technical Support
>
> *Green-Go Solar Distribution*
> *kienan@dist.solar* <https://kienan@dist.solar/>
> *(801) 631-5584 (Cell)*
> *www.distribution.solar <https://www.distribution.solar/>*
>
>
>
> --
> *From:* RE-wrenches  on behalf
> of Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches 
> *Sent:* Saturday, September 16, 2023 8:33 AM
> *To:* RE-wrenches 
> *Cc:* Kirk Herander 
> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island/Fortress E-vault
>
> Jerry,
>
> Who is the maker of the Blue Planet/Outback SOC box interface you mention?
>
> On Sat, Sep 16, 2023 at 9:30 AM Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
> Mac, wrenches
> SMA and fortress can only open loop and with a fixed temp sender its fine.
> Now on the blue planet and open loop with outback, you need a SOC box that
> they can make for you, it will interface with the blue planet and command
> the genny.
> Fun times
>
> On Sat, Sep 16, 2023, 6:04 AM Mac Lewis  wrote:
>
> Hi William,
>
> Are you doing open loop or closed loop communication?  I'm not sure if
> Fortress can do a closed loop with SMA or not.
>
> We struggled to get the open loop to work well with some Blue Ion
> batteries, not from a charging sense but from a sense of getting the auto
> gen start to trigger correctly.  Basically, the SOC algorithm was always
> way off.  For a while we were using an external voltage trigger and we
> could get the generator to start OK before BMS shutdown.  We have since
> added a Namaka box and are using the "Ext BMS" setting for battery type in
> the Sunny Island and it has been working very well.
>
> I think the difficulty arises because the Sunny Island is so
> State-of-Charge centric and you can't manipulate the SOC algorithm without
> that Ext-BMS setting (and solid communication).  One weakness of the
> ext BMS setting is that it won't fall back on Voltage settings if battery
> communication goes down, but this is a weakness throughout closed loop
> communication for many manufacturers.
>
> Let us know if there is a Fortress to SMA communication solution.
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Sep 15, 2023 at 11:11 PM Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
> William, Wrenches
> Yes I do and it does require some basic electronics to make it work
> correctly, you will need to remove the ttemp sender and make a
> resistor pack to simulate the 77 degree reading otherwise it will not
> charge properly, for the first one I used a breadboard to set the temp for
> what I wanted to see then build a more solid state shrink wrap resistor.
> Doing this will prevent undercharge by the SMA and your customer will be
> happy to see the full state of charge at the batteries.
> OldSchool fun times
>
>
>
> On Thu, Sep 14, 2023 at 2:12 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
> Friends:
>
>
>
> I am commissioning an E-vault battery array to an existing SMA Sunny
> Island System.  Does anyone have any experience with this they could share?
>
>
>
> Thanks.
>
>
>
> William
>
>
>
> Miller Solar
>
> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
>
> 805-438-5600
>
> www.millersolar.com
>
> CA Lic. 773985
>
>
>
>
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org
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Re: [RE-wrenches] GT w/ BB

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Storm Copper has tables.

William Miller
Miller Solar.com
805-438-5600
www.millersolar.com


On Tue, Sep 19, 2023 at 7:13 AM Jay via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Thx Michael
>
> How do you calculate buss bar size?
> Is there a specific formula or table I can find?
>
> Thx
> Jay
>
> On Sep 18, 2023, at 5:15 PM, Michael Morningstar 
> wrote:
>
> 
> I've been making gutter bus wireways that run the length of batteries and
> inverters allowing for exact lengths of cables. I think I posted a picture
> of an exceptionally large one. 24' long. I'm looking at the rack mounted
> set up because the bussing and cabling is done. 3 racks of 6 5kwhr
> batteries. All I will need is cabling from the racks to a small (in size)
> bussbar
>
> On Mon, Sep 18, 2023 at 3:50 PM Jay  wrote:
>
>> Sounds like a good design.
>>
>>
>> As a tangent question to 13 parallel batteries, such as you’ll need
>> Michael.
>>
>> How are people wiring larger numbers of lithium batteries together in
>> parallel?
>>
>> Massive buss bars which I’m not sure how to do in a code compliance way.
>> Or
>> Not worrying about different cable lengths?
>> Or
>> Adding another conductor to the farthest batteries to compensate for VD
>> Or
>> Making all the cables the same length?
>>
>> Thx
>>
>> Jay
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sep 18, 2023, at 4:37 PM, Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches <
>> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>
>> 
>> Jay,
>> I'd like to design for 60kw supply and 100kWh battery. I think I'm going
>> to try the Discover rack mount set up rather than AES's and custom bussing.
>> Jason,
>> That's exactly what I was thinking, if I go the Sol-Ark route. Last time
>> I ordered custom panelboards like that, they were six months out.
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Sep 18, 2023 at 1:18 PM Jay via RE-wrenches <
>> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>
>>> If 40kw is the peak and then there are new added loads, what 50-60kw?
>>>
>>> If it was me I’d be designing the inverters to handle the 50/60 kw with
>>> future expansion capabilities beyond that.
>>>
>>> Then how much kWh of storage are you going to need or maybe are planning
>>> for?
>>>
>>> At some point maybe looking at a larger single inverter with high
>>> voltage battery vs 48v?
>>> I’m not sure if there are any 120/240 versions yet.
>>>
>>> Jay
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sep 18, 2023, at 12:36 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches <
>>> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> 
>>> I like the Sol-Ark idea having had a few dual-unit successes recently.
>>> In terms of combining them, the Sol-ark manual has a good triple unit
>>> wiring diagram on page 53. You would have to use two 400A panelboards with
>>> three 200A breakers for each to follow this diagram. However, I don't see
>>> the point of a combining load center on the load side of the paralleled
>>> units. The Sol-Arks each have a 200A integrated load breaker, so why not
>>> just combine the outputs in a multi-tap connector or busbar? I think there
>>> is a code-compliant way to make that work, but I haven't studied it with
>>> three units.
>>>
>>> I would definitely ditch the SolarEdge inverters and just make it DC
>>> coupled to the Sol-Arks. You don't need these to be a failure point in the
>>> system, and the AC coupling will reduce the energy production in backup
>>> scenarios.
>>>
>>> It sounds like you would have to get the six 200 feeders out of the
>>> meter/main and into a new panelboard on the load side of the Sol-Arks. So
>>> that's another required load center.
>>>
>>> And if money is truly no object, I would consider a manual transfer
>>> switch to bypass the inverters for service. I'm afraid to look up what a
>>> 400A DPDT switch costs.
>>>
>>>
>>> Jason Szumlanski
>>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group
>>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP)
>>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Sep 18, 2023 at 1:14 PM Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches <
>>> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I've been asked to build a back up syste

[RE-wrenches] Sunny Island/Fortress E-vault

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Friends:



I am commissioning an E-vault battery array to an existing SMA Sunny Island
System.  Does anyone have any experience with this they could share?



Thanks.



William



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Power conditioner for Trace inverter

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Friends:



I had an experience with a more modern inverter system creating harmonic
distortion on the output waveform during generator run.  That issue was
documented here
<https://millersolar.com/MillerSolar/case_studies/25_GFI%20Tripping/GFI_Tripping.html>.
The inverter system is Outback Radian.



A few weeks ago I received a call from an individual that was researching a
similar problem.  He called me to tell me he had resolved his harmonic
distortion problem by installing a 20 microfarad capacitor in the circuit
that was having problems.



I have read here about adding a capacitor to solve distortion problems. The
same client is still having problems running a modern oven.  I ordered a 20
microfarad, non-polarized capacitor rated at 440 VAC.  I will let you know
if this provides any resolution.



William Miller



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985





*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
Behalf Of *Ray via RE-wrenches
*Sent:* Friday, September 8, 2023 10:12 PM
*To:* re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
*Cc:* Ray
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Power conditioner for Trace inverter



That's about what to expect from the Psuedo Sine Wave that the SWs put
out.  They shortened the list of problem appliances significantly compared
to "mod sine", but its a stepped pyramid wave.  Later inverters (Outback,
Magnum) were step waves too, but just more steps, which translates to less
trouble.

Trace SW waveform



I have cured the "washer not running on the SW" once, by adding a capacitor
to the circuit.  I can't recommend it 100% from a safety stand point, but
it worked for us. Some body else chime in on the possible dangers?  Cap
blowing, fires, shorts?  Definitely needs to be in a metal enclosure.

I think its either get a different washer or get a different inverter. At
22+ years, its slowly reaching the time to retire those old SWs.

Ray Walters

Remote Solar

303 505-8760

On 9/8/23 2:53 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches wrote:

I would do a load test on the inverter. It may have a damaged FET or two.
They do not last forever! Good Luck



*Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar*

*"we go where powerlines don't"*

*   <http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/>https://offgridsolar1.com/
<https://offgridsolar1.com/>  <http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/>*

*e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net *

*text 209 813 0060*



On 2023-09-08 12:30 pm, Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches wrote:

New washing machines are small loads 400 Watts about.



On Fri, Sep 8, 2023, 2:27 PM Darryl Thayer  wrote:

I once used a ferro-resonant transformer to clean up a sine wave.  You have
to know the power.



On Fri, Sep 8, 2023, 1:59 PM Chris Daum via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

Hi folks:



I have a fellow with a Trace SW5548, purchased from us in 2001.  It's been
working  great for him all this time, but the dilemma is he's gotten a new
Hotpoint washing machine, and its electronics don't like the old inverter.
Is there some sort of power conditioner or 'line tamer' available that will
work for this appliance's operation?  Any ideas would be greatly
appreciated.  He's rather loathe to replace his inverter if he doesn't need
to.



Best,



Chris Daum

Oasis Montana Inc.

406-777-4309 or 4321

406-777-4309 fax

www.oasismontana.com



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Re: [RE-wrenches] Charger recommendations

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Ron:



If your client has a large battery bank and the inverter/charger cannot
deliver enough charging amps, maybe your client has the wrong
inverter/charger.  Tacking on accessory equipment complicates an
installation.



There is a reason integrated inverter/chargers are popular.  They all have
sophisticated charging algorithms.  They are remotely programmable and
monitorable.  An integrated inverter/charger uses one set of AC and DC
leads as opposed to adding another set of both for an outboard charger.  An
integrated unit can handle AGM functions (maybe not the Solark).  An
integrated unit will transition seamlessly between inverting and charging
and transfer AC loads.  If you stop and think about it, modern
inverter/chargers are amazing devices.



There are many models that can do what you need:  One Radian 8048 can
deliver 115 amps of battery charging. One Schneider XWPro offers 140 amps.
One Solark15 has 275 (???) battery charging amps.  (I don’t think the
Solark published data is organized well.  Maybe someone knows the real
value).



Good luck.



William Miller



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985





*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
Behalf Of *Ron Young via RE-wrenches
*Sent:* Monday, September 4, 2023 4:17 PM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Cc:* Ron Young
*Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Charger recommendations



Hi All,



I am looking for recommendations for a standalone 48v high amp charger
(min. 100a). I have a client with a large battery bank that needs a minimum
85a charge but his all-in-one inverter/charger won’t deliver more than 40.
Finding high amp 48v chargers has proven to be a challenge. Victron has one
but not sure if there’s anything else out there.



Ron



earthRight Products - Solareagle.com

Alternative Energy Solutions ~ Renewable Energy Products

1-877-925-2929
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Charger recommendations

[William Bryce via RE-wrenches]

People might be scared of them because they are China built. But the EG4
ChargeVerter is outstanding and reliable. 48v 100 amps.  Check it out at
Signature Solar.

This thing take crap generator power and is  just works. Has a good price
point.

On Mon, Sep 4, 2023 at 8:06 PM Starlight via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Iota DLS converters can be stacked in series. Using 4 of the 90 Amp in
> series will get you close.
>
> Larry Crutcher
> Starlight Solar Power Systems
>
>
> On Sep 4, 2023, at 4:16 PM, Ron Young via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
> Hi All,
>
> I am looking for recommendations for a standalone 48v high amp charger
> (min. 100a). I have a client with a large battery bank that needs a minimum
> 85a charge but his all-in-one inverter/charger won’t deliver more than 40.
> Finding high amp 48v chargers has proven to be a challenge. Victron has one
> but not sure if there’s anything else out there.
>
> Ron
>
> earthRight Products - Solareagle.com 
> Alternative Energy Solutions ~ Renewable Energy Products
> 1-877-925-2929
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Record Low

[William Brooks via RE-wrenches]

 The mean extreme minimum dry bulb temperature is on that database, but you 
have to look for it. They have not substantively changed.
Bill.
On Wednesday, August 23, 2023 at 04:05:58 PM PDT, Steve McCarney via 
RE-wrenches  wrote:  
 
 Hi 
For USA and global weatherbase.com will have record hi and lo temps as well as 
a lot of other helpful climate info given monthly and annual.  No solar 
radiation tho.
steve mccarney - sunny day llc
On Tue, Aug 22, 2023 at 11:54 AM Daniel Young via RE-wrenches 
 wrote:


I still use the SolarABC’s reference map, pulls the ASHRAE data. Good for the 
US only.

 

https://energyresearch.ucf.edu/solar-certification/solar-reference-map/

 

Not record lows, but I have used this for years as the design low temperature 
for string sizing.

 

They claim the data is outdated, but with climate change I feel safe that the 
Extreme minimum temperature is likely to only go up

--

 

Danny Young

NABCEP PV Installation Professional #031508-90

VP of Engineering
Solar Energy Solutions

Lexington | Louisville | Bloomington | Cincinnati | Evansville | Indianapolis

513-448-5176 (mobile)

877-312-7456 (Main Office)

da...@sesre.com

 

From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of 
Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches
Sent: Tuesday, August 22, 2023 1:47 PM
To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Cc: Christopher Warfel 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Record Low

 

|  | 
Caution: This email originated from outside SES. Do not click links or open 
attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe.
 |


 

Hi Drake, here you go

 

ASHRAE climatic design conditions 2009/2013/2017/2021 (ashrae-meteo.info)

 

Chris

On 8/22/2023 1:28 PM, Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches wrote:


Hello Wrenches,

 

Is there a good source for finding record low temperatures in various areas? We 
are designing a project that has very different temperature characteristics 
than we are used to.

 

Ashrae.org was recommended as a source. Does anyone know where on the site to 
look?

 

Thank you,

 

Drake

 

Drake Chamberlin

Athens Electric LLC

Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810

CO Master Electrician’s License 4526

NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional

 

-- 

 




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-- 

                                 Christopher Warfel
                 ENTECH Engineering, Inc.
PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807
                                                            401-466-8978



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Re: [RE-wrenches] 200a manual xfer switch w/ small aux contact : who makes it?

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Mick:

Square D offers a set of auxiliary contacts on the double throw switches.
It is ordered by adding a suffix to the model number. Check the footnotes
in the Digest. My supplier at CED can hook you up and arrange a drop
shipment. Eddie Jensen at 805-543-4700.

Be careful though, these are micro switches that sometimes come mis-aligned
such that they might barely trip when installed and then not quite trip
later on. Exercise the switch and observe the throw to ensure it is
positive.

Good luck.

William

On Wed, Jul 26, 2023 at 3:26 PM Mick Abraham via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Hi, Mechanix~ My off grid project needs dual 40kW diesel generators with
> easy manual selection between "A" or "B". The output from the manual switch
> would feed AC into a set of XW Pro inverter/chargers.
>
> I seek a 200a manual xfer switch that can also changeover the 12v+
> generator automation wire with the same handle. Schneider DTU324N is 3
> phase (solid neutral) so that does get me a third blade but since the
> trigger wire is only a few amps this p/n seems like overkill on size/weight
> and on cost.
>
> The manual switch unit doesn't need to make or break live power because
> folks always tend to shut down any nearby noisy engine before they do any
> switching. We also don't need 100k short circuit current rating because the
> machines can't fault as big as grid power can. Non-fusible seems best b/c
> each genset will have a 200a main breaker. I'd prefer to buy the switch
> inside a NEMA1 enclosure rather than getting a bare switch that would
> require me to mount it into a housing. The project won't be code
> inspected, so thanks in advance for any suggestions.
>
> The Wrench List is the Bomb!
>
> Mick Abraham, Proprietor
> www.abrahamsolar.com
>
> Landline: 970-731-4675
> Cell phone or for text messaging: 970-946-6584
> ᐧ
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> --

William Miller
Miller Solar.com
805-438-5600
www.millersolar.com
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Re: [RE-wrenches] How to make PV Watts calculate solar on north facing roof

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Darryl:



Set Azimuth to 0 degrees:





William





Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985





*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
Behalf Of *Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches
*Sent:* Wednesday, July 19, 2023 12:17 PM
*To:* newrewrenches
*Cc:* Darryl Thayer
*Subject:* [RE-wrenches] How to make PV Watts calculate solar on north
facing roof



Customer wants me to propose adding solar modules to north roof.  I don't
know how to get answer from PV Watts?
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[RE-wrenches] Testing strings with Tigo

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Friends:



We are in the midst of our first off-grid, DC coupled project using Tigo
TS4-A-F RSS switches.



In my few years installing solar I am accustomed to testing PV strings with
a Fluke 87 for Voc, Isc, Vmp and Imp, or some combination.  I do this
regularly in the midst of installing PV so I can be confident once we are
finished there will be no issues with the panels or the wiring.



I understand these tests are not possible with the Tigo units.  With the
circuits unterminated, I can see the 0.6 VDC/Tigo with no keep-alive signal
transmitted.  With the signal being transmitted, I do not see the expected
readings for Voc.  I get only the 0.6/Tigo.  When shorted into the Fluke DC
input the Isc jumps around between 0 and about 2 amps.



I was told by tech support the PV circuits need to be “terminated” at an
inverter before any voltage or current can be measured.  The circuits do
not terminate in an inverter; they will connect to a charge controller
(FM100, in this case).



We have not pulled the PV feeders so connecting to the charge controllers
is not yet possible.  I am nervous about installing the remainder of the
modules without knowing for certain they will produce as they should.



What would you all do to assure yourselves the PV will produce once
connected?



TIA.



William



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Parallel Homegrid Stack'd Busbar

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

https://millersolar.com/MillerSolar/Portfolio/Inverters/battery_iinverters/JP_Radian/JP_Radian.html





Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985





*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches
*Sent:* Thursday, June 29, 2023 4:55 AM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Cc:* Jason Szumlanski
*Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Parallel Homegrid Stack'd Busbar



Hi all,



I'm doing my first installation with two 24 kWh Homegrid stacks. They will
feed two Sol-Ark 15k. I'm seeking recommendations on busbars for connecting
this up in the most elegant way possible.



Pictures speak 1,000 words, so if you have any I would appreciate it
(off-list is fine).



Jason Szumlanski

Florida Solar Design Group
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[RE-wrenches] AFCI tripping on SB 4000US-12

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Friends:



We installed a bunch of Shell SQ-150-PC modules on a ground mount almost 20
years ago.  The original SB2500 inverters died so we upgraded to
SB4000US-21 inverters.  We had some ground fault or AFCI issues a number of
years ago so we replaced all homeruns with PV wire which resolved the
problem.



These panels have J-boxes which we interconnected with 1/2” NMLT.  The home
runs are with PV wire with absolutely no splices and the inter-panel
jumpers are THWN.



Recently we started getting AFCI disturbances on one inverter.  We isolated
the fault to one string.  We opened every pull box and panel J-box and all
of the wiring looks dry, clean and tightly connected.  We inspected every
panel front and back and see no hotspots or visible corrosion.



I have a megger I have never used.  The homerun is kind of long so maybe it
has insulation problems.  I could isolate the homerun and megger those
leads.  I am researching if I can megger PV modules.  It looks like this is
commonly done.  That looks like my next step.



Does anyone have any ideas on what I should do next? I suppose I could
start swapping each of the 10 modules in the problem string with panels in
the non-problem strings, but that seems like a lot of work.



Thanks in advance.



William Miller



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985
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Re: [RE-wrenches] 2018 Residential Code Fire Setbacks

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Rick:



I think this is a state by state issue.  From this article
<https://www.nist.gov/buildings-construction/understanding-building-codes>:



“Building codes vary from state to state and between jurisdictions.”



In all jusrisdictions in my part of California, the local Fire Marshal is
the final arbiter on what is allowed. Some building departments provide
specifications for setbacks and some require I submit a plan for review to
the Fire Marshal.



If you are seeing conflicting requirements, reach out to the Fire Marshal
and the building department.  What I get away with will have little bearing
on how your local officials may rule.



I have obtained variances for being a few inches short of the required
distance or if the pathway that the setback would create is otherwise
inaccesble due to lack of safe ladder-set location.  This was accomplished
by approaching the Fire Marshall with a clear drawing and good logic.



I hope this helps,



William Miller



PS:  The article you cite reads like the world, as we know it, will end
with the adoption of setbacks in Virginia.  I felt the same way years ago
when California adopted setbacks, but I am still alive.  Sure, some
projects allow less PV on a roof now, but I have to rely on experts to
inform me what is safe for firefighters because I have no expertise on the
issue.



WM



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985





*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
Behalf Of *rick--- via RE-wrenches
*Sent:* Wednesday, June 7, 2023 12:01 PM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Cc:* r...@solshineenergy.com
*Subject:* [RE-wrenches] 2018 Residential Code Fire Setbacks



Wrenches,



Looking for some guidance on setbacks at ridge for PV systems. The 2018
code states the following:


R324.6.2 Setback at ridge.

For photovoltaic arrays occupying not more than 33 percent of the plan view
total roof area, not less than an 18-inch (457 mm) clear setback is
required on both sides of a horizontal ridge. For photovoltaic arrays
occupying more than 33 percent of the plan view total roof area, not less
than a 36-inch (914 mm) clear setback is required on both sides of a
horizontal ridge.



In reading this
<https://ipsunsolar.com/new-fire-code-setbacks-in-virginia-will-limit-the-size-of-solar-projects/>article
put out by Ipsun Solar regarding the setbacks, they state that if there’s
no PV on the opposite side of the roof no setback is required, although
their diagram shows a 12” setback. I don’t see any exceptions in the code
that indicate that. What’re you all doing for ridge setbacks?



Thanks,





rick brown
SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC
Electrical & Solar Contracting Services
www.SolShineEnergy.com
Roanoke, VA

Office: 540.235.3095
Mobile: 540.808.9502

VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660
VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762
VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer
NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21


[image: solshine-01-18-17 copy.jpg]
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Open Delta to 208Y/120 Volt

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Drake:

You should be able to connect to a 120/240 split phase feeder. Avoid the
stinger. I have done it with FXRs , works just fine.

Wm

On Tue, Jun 6, 2023 at 8:11 AM Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Hello All,
>
> We are looking for a transformer to connect Sol-Ark inverters to an open
> delta service. The Sol-Ark can only connect to a Wye configuration.
>
> We found one which the supplier says will do the job. It is an MGM, 240
> Delta to 208Y/120 Volt, 3-Phase.
>
> The supplier says this will derive a neutral which can be grounded for a
> solid neutral connection.
>
> My concerns with what we have found so far are:
> 1) How much efficiency will be lost due to connecting to an open delta?
> 2) Will the derived neutral really be sufficient?
> 3) The cost of the unit we found is high. Does anyone know of a source
> for economically priced transformers.
>
> Thank you,
>
> Drake
>
> Drake Chamberlin
> Athens Electric LLC
> Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810
> CO Master Electrician’s License 4526
> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
>
>
>
>
> --
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William Miller
Miller Solar.com
805-438-5600
www.millersolar.com
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Re: [RE-wrenches] problem using Radian on TOU metering

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Darryl:



Here are a few suggestions:



1.   Don’t move to California.  Those rates are unheard of here for many
years.

2.  Grid-zero.  From the manual:  In *GridZero *mode, the Radian
inverter remains grid-connected, but prioritizes the use of battery or
renewable sources to run loads.

3.   Mini-grid. From the manual: In Mini Grid mode, the Radian inverter
automatically rejects an AC source and runs solely from battery (and
renewable) energy. The inverter only connects to the AC source (usually the
utility grid) when the batteries run too low.  While connected to the
utility grid, the inverter’s charger can be set either On or Off.

4.   HBX mode.  From the manual:  In High Battery Transfer (HBX) mode, the
system is connected to an AC source such as the utility grid; however, it
will use battery power as the fi rst priority. The AC source is locked out
until needed.

5.   Grid use time:  From the manual:  This function allows the system to
connect to (use) the utility grid and disconnect from (drop) it on a
schedule.

6.   Grid-tie:  Sell back and reduce the energy bill.



I will leave it to you to delve into these options and see if the work for
your application.  Some functions can be mixed, some cannot.



I hope this helps.



William Miller



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985





*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
Behalf Of *Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches
*Sent:* Tuesday, May 2, 2023 11:05 AM
*To:* newrewrenches
*Cc:* Darryl Thayer
*Subject:* [RE-wrenches] problem using Radian on TOU metering



Hello, I apologize for perhaps a dumb question.  I did go online to
ask Outback twice, no answer.System Radian 8 kW and Mate3 with 2 each
1.5 kW solar arrays into 2 ea. MX60s.  Battery 20 kWh LiFe open loop.  The
owner wants the lowest energy bill.  The rates are; off-peak at 0.04/kWh
and on-peak at 0.21/kWh.  My choice is battery and solar on-peak 9:00 am to
9:00 pm.  However, the homeowner will deplete the battery on cloudy days,
AND the Outback will turn off leaving them without power.  Is there a way
to switch to grid power for this period?   I do not want to charge the
battery at this time.
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[RE-wrenches] Straw bale wi-fi

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

I have install a gateway in an exterior equipment space outside of a straw
bale envelope once and wi-fi reception was no problem.

I think that every situation needs to be evaluated on it’s own, however.
Checking with a smart phone is a good start.

William
-- 

William Miller
Miller Solar.com
805-438-5600
www.millersolar.com
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Truss finder

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

[image: Hammer | MC Systems]



Plus



[image: chiptoolz | Rafter Finder]



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985





*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
Behalf Of *Kristopher Schmid via RE-wrenches
*Sent:* Sunday, April 16, 2023 8:12 AM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Cc:* Kristopher Schmid
*Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Truss finder



I am considering buying a deep scanner for locating trusses.  Any
recommendations or testimonials?

Shine On!

Kris Schmid
Legacy Solar, LLC
137 West 1st Avenue
Luck, WI 54853
www.legacysolar.com
715-653-4295
NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician
BSEE
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[RE-wrenches] Sol-ark without batteries

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Friends:



Thanks for the replies on the subject.   I was impressed that Sol-ark got
back to me the next day and confirmed the answer is yes.



We are well aware of the limitations of installing without batteries.  The
option provides several benefits, including meeting a filing deadline
without being forced to pick a battery model and allowing the expense of
batteries to be delayed until the budget is in place.



William Miller



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985
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[RE-wrenches] Ski-ark without batteries

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Friends:

Can the Sol-ark 15 be installed without batteries in grid-tie mode?

I have been told the answer is yes but I’d like confirmation.

Thanks in advance.

William Miller
-- 

William Miller
Miller Solar.com
895-438-5600
www.millersolar.com
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Phased out Schneider Electric SCP

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Chris:

Respectfully:  it’s not the same thing. Outback is not discontinuing the
Mate.

If you have an Outback inverter you need a Mate and the Mate accesses the
FM100.

Sure it would be better if the FM100 had a display, but there is a viable
option in the Mate.

William

On Tue, Apr 4, 2023 at 8:57 AM Chris Schaefer via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> akin to outback and their FM100 charger controller with no display. I use
> the Midnite classic 200 instead.
>
> Christopher
>
> On Tue, Apr 4, 2023 at 11:34 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via
> RE-wrenches  wrote:
>
>> Thanks Glen !  I will ask him on Thursday at a webinar.
>>
>>
>> Register here:
>>
>> https://solar.se.com/us/en/event/webinar-backup-control-switch-launch/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
>> "we go where powerlines don't"
>> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ <http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/>
>> e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net 
>> text 209 813 0060*
>>
>>
>> On 2023-04-03 7:14 pm, Glenn Burt via RE-wrenches wrote:
>>
>> Eric Benstennof SE demoed a pretty slick replacement that he cobbled
>> together from off the shelf parts using a small tablet.
>> I saw it in Jan at an Alt-E installer conference.
>> I think I might have the details somewhere in my files, but it is
>> basically an inexpensive android tablet, a USB charging wart usingneither
>> WiFi or a USB type c Ethernet and power adaptwr and a wall mount for the
>> tablet
>>
>> -Glenn
>> Sent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors.
>>
>> -- Original message--
>> *From: *Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches
>> *Date: *Mon, Apr 3, 2023 7:31 PM
>> *To: *RE-wrenches;
>> *Cc: *Mac Lewis;
>> *Subject:*[RE-wrenches] Phased out Schneider Electric SCP
>>
>> Hello Wrenches,
>>
>> Now that Schneider has phased out SCP, what are the options for a GUI
>> onsite for non-savvy consumers?
>>
>> Thanks!
>>
>> --
>>
>>
>>
>> Mac Lewis
>>
>> "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates
>>
>> ___
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>
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>
> Chris Schaefer’s
> 
>
> *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 *
> *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424
> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/5115%0D%0ASouth+Hill+Road+~+Canandaigua+New+York+14424?entry=gmail=g>**www.solarandwindfx.com
> <http://www.solarandwindfx.com> ~ E-mail: ch...@solarandwindfx.com
> *
>
>
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