[scots-l] Birlin' ( continued )

[Keith W Dunn]

 Toby Rider wrote:

>I think his stratshpeys had too many different notes and not enough
>repetition to be good step dance strathspeys. :-) The very same
>qualities that make them good tunes to listen to, make them not as
>powerful for step dancing.  
>   I believe Skinner probably would have been fine with that. I
highly
>doubt Skinner was writing tunes with Highlanders in mind. By the time
>he started writing tunes, the Highlands has already been cleared, and
>the people who would appreciate the sort of driving strathspeys you need
>for step dancing were already moved to North America, Australia, or
>dead.. 

I certainly am far removed from the depth of history in this field
compared to those who have been carrying this discussion and I had no
idea how far this discussion would go when I originally asked for
information on the ornament but I have been reading certain articles
concerning J. Scott and his fiddle & dance.  Here are a few quotes
concerning his relation to dance & fiddle.
...
"It was nothing unusual for Peter" ( Peter being his brother ) "and me to
trudge eight or ten weary miles on a slushy wet night in order to fulfill
a barn engagement". And he describes a typical dance of the 1850s, held
in a building with an earthen floor, lit by tallow dips mounted on wall
brackets and the 'orchestra' consisting of fiddle, cello and flute. "

"He studied under a dancing master, William Scott, and thereafter adopted
'Scott' as his own middle name. While dancing, as much as fiddle playing,
would be his livelihood for years to come, was it really in homage to his
instructor that he changed his name? "

" With almost a year's tuition in dancing from Wm. Scott, "Professor" of
Elocution, Stoneywood, J. Scott Skinner now held dancing classes in the
district as far out as Alford. He actually beat the renowned John M'Neill
of Edinburgh in a sword-dance competition in Ireland in 1862 and the
following year played The Marquis of Huntly's Farewell and The Marquis of
Tullybardine at a grand strathspey and reel competition in Inverness,
thereby gaining the first prize and ousting perhaps the best players in
Joseph Lowe's Edinburgh Band. When he subsequently extended his field of
activities to the Ballater district his reputation soon reached the ears
of the Queen, who requested him to teach the tenantry at Balmoral
callisthenics and dancing. In 1868 he claimed to have 125 pupils there."

"1868, aged twenty five, he was working as a dance teacher to the
tenantry at the palace of Balmoral. He established, with both dance and
violin teaching, a practice apparently successful enough to allow him,
around 1870, to marry fellow-dancer Jane Stuart."
Pete Cooper  Article MT007  
..
As I understand from these quotes and other readings concerning Skinners
fiddle and dancing, he must have been highly versed in both and to have
been taught by by a professional dancer such as Wm. Scott and to have
been requested by the Queen to teach dancing at the Balmoral
callisthenics and dancing. 
 "He actually beat the renowned John M'Neill of Edinburgh in a
sword-dance competition in Ireland in 1862 and the following year played
The Marquis of Huntly's Farewell and The Marquis of Tullybardine at a
grand strathspey and reel competition in Inverness."

Is the sword-dance traditional highland?  I always thought it to be.
 I also understand that his dancing and some of his fiddle tunes
must have been at times -  of a more professional style rather than that
of the highlanders tradition as Toby mentioned.  Perhaps his earlier
years reflected a more traditional style as the above quotes reflect on
his and his brothers experience trudging  "eight or ten weary miles on a
slushy wet night in order to fulfill a barn engagement".
" And he describes a typical dance of the 1850s, held in a building with
an earthen floor, lit by tallow dips mounted on wall brackets and the
'orchestra' consisting of fiddle, cello and flute. " 
This sounds to me to be a deep, visceral association to the folk
traditions of Scottish music.

All in all..( and again, with my limited historical knowledge - but
wanting to know more ) it seems to me that Skinner must have had a deep
appreciation for both the folk dance & fiddle tunes as well as the more
highly articulated "violin" music and the developing mixture of the two
we know now as "traditional" Scottish repertoire and penned tunes that
could be considered mixtures of his life experiences.  I trust that as
his career developed that he certainly knew more about what was
considered in vogue in both folk and classical music for his society in
his era and taught dancing & played his fiddle & wrote tunes accordingly.
 Albeit...highland music, in particular, wasn't 

Re: [scots-l] Birlin' once more

[SUZANNE MACDONALD]

In my e-mail just sent [8:30 pm AST] the following sentence:

In musical notation this would be two sixteenth notes, one eight note
and a one
sixteenth rest.   should read two thirty-second notes, one eighth
etc

Alexander

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Re: [scots-l] Birlin' once more

[SUZANNE MACDONALD]

Stuart Eydman wrote:

Anyway, I've measured a few birls selected at random from a number of
Cape
Breton fiddlers (using the 1970s Topic album of tapes by John Shaw) and
I
conclude that, if anything, the birls are in fact longer than the
Skinner
ones I looked at previously

My comment:

The length of the birl cannot be longer than the time required to play
the equivalent of a 1/4 note. To retain the rhythm of the tune it must
occupy one beat in a 4/4 time signature or 1/2 beat in a 2/4 time
signature tune.

 Stuart:

I note that the birl
often precedes a long note - am I correct? If so then it might be
possible
that the ear links the third note with that which follows - if it does
this
could result in the ratio 1:1:6 or so. Hardly a scientific sample but
what
do you think

Comment:

A long note following a birl in my experience is not common. A  very
quick check through  Skye, Athole, Kerrs, Skinner's Scottish Violinist
turned up only two, "Nine Pint Coggie" and "Mrs Hamilton of Wishaw."
"Nine Pint Coggie" in the Athole is a different tune but does have this
characteristic. A long note after the birl in strathspeys does appear to
be more common; "Athole Cummers" in Athole and "Bog an Lochan"  in Skye
for example.
Re your comment that it is hard to be precise about the time ratios,
i.e. 1:1:3 , 1:1:6 , You are absolutely correct. The 1:1:6 ratio appears
to give too much  time to the third note. There is another ratio which I
discussed in a previous e-mail; 1:1:4 with a sixteenth rest. In musical
notation this would be two sixteenth notes, one eight note and a one
sixteenth rest.
No scientific measurements in this either. One can say with certainty,
though, that the length of the first two notes, as traditionally played,
are much shorter than the 1:1:2 time ratio indicated by the written
music.

Stuart:

The more of Skinner's playing I listen to the more of a fan I become.

Comment

I'm not familiar with his playing but his music is superb.

Alexander

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Re: [scots-l] Birlin'

[SUZANNE MACDONALD]

Wendy Galovich wrote:

Okay, if you're speaking from a "Winston perspective"

My comment:

I'm speaking from a Cape Breton fiddle music perspective or perhaps more
correctly  from a Scottish music, Cape Breton style perspective, not a
Winston perspective.

Wendy:

Also the sheer number of tunes by each
composer doesn't really answer the question of how many of them actually

get played, how often, and in what venues.

Comment:

The tunes in the "Winston" collection are the ones he played all over
Cape Breton and elsewhere for about forth years. As I pointed out in my
earlier e-mail the Skinner tunes in that collection exceed the combined
total of his next four of five favorite composers. The venues were every
conceivable one with the community dances being the greatest number.
During summer months he played four/five nights a week for about 25
years, amazingly all the while holding down a 9 to 5 Monday to Friday
day job. His dances were always sell-outs. Cape Bretoners from "away"
scheduled summer vacations to maximize attendance at his dances. But
that's not all. Until the modern era he recorded far more music that any
other CB fiddler. He was a guest numerous times on National television
in the 1950's, and at this time this music was pretty well confined to
the western half of Cape Breton Island. One of his tune "McNabb's
Hornpipe" otherwise known as "Crossing the Minch" [spelling?] made it
all the way to the Canadian music "Hit Parade". He was and is an icon.

 Wendy:

 The other unanswered piece of the question, which I didn't spell
out (my fault!), is where do Skinner's compositions fit into Cape Breton

step dance tradition - specifically the strathspeys.
The reason I'm still questioning this is that while I can think
of
quite a few "listening strathspeys" by Skinner, I can only come up with
only one that is sometimes associated with him that is commonly played
for step dancers - Devil in the Kitchen - but The Scottish Violinist
credits a W.M. Ross for the composition, and Skinner for the fiddle
arrangement.

Comment:

I did a very quick check through: Skinner's "Harp and Claymore", "Miller
o' Hirn", "Logie" and "Scottish Violinist" collections. . Lots of
strathspeys but as you say mostly "slow' or solo types. But many of
these are beautiful music and they are his creations. The fact that they
are not stepdance strathspeys does not detract from them. Also the reels
are a bigger part of the stepdance music  than are strathspeys and Cape
Bretoners are stepdancing to plenty of his reels.

Wendy:
but the step dancing strathspey stands out in such sharp
relief for me as an important, distinctive part of the Cape Breton
musical
tradition that I still don't see Skinner as a significant influence on
*that* part of it. Fair enough?

Comment:

Agree.

Alexander


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Re: [scots-l] Birlin' once more

[Derek Hoy]

Stuart wrote:
> Regarding birls and Skinner...

Great stuff.  And a good point about the place of the birl.  They must sound 
different if there is a pause or a held note after them, as opposed to going 
straight to another note, more common in reels.  I've also pointed out in 
other posts that birls are played quite differently in different styles- 
saying that one is more traditional than another is a bit pointless.

It seems there's some dispute over Alexander's ratios, but his point is good 
for teaching- to play the short notes shorter and more crisply than the 
printed music would suggest.

Derek
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Re: [scots-l] Birlin'

[Wendy Galovich]

On Tue, 20 Feb 2001, SUZANNE MACDONALD wrote:

> Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 22:29:25 -0400
> From: SUZANNE MACDONALD <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: [scots-l] Birlin'
> 
> Wendy Galovich wrote:
> 
> However it seems to me that at the dances and concerts I've been
> to on the island, and on the recordings I have, there is a sampling of
> Skinner tunes, but the Gows', the Lowes', Marshall's and MacIntosh's
> to name a few of the older composers. Among the more recent composers
> whose tunes I've frequently heard played in those venues are Dan R.,
> John
> Campbell, Donald Angus, Kinnon and Joey Beaton, Jerry Holland, Brenda
> Stubbert.. the list goes on.
> However if I'm understanding you correctly, it sounds like
> you're
> saying that there are more Skinner tunes in the Cape Breton repertoire
> than of any of the composers I just named off. That puzzles because it
> doesn't seem to line up with what little experience I've had of the
> tradition. Could you please explain further?
> 
> The Gows published about 300 tunes [infamous for plagiarizing some of
> them] , Marshall about 250, Skinner about 600, Lowes collection is
> mostly traditional compositions. Skinner was not only the most prolific
> composer but he and  Marshall are in a class by themselves. Winston
> Fitzgerald was, in the view of many,  Cape Breton's most influential
> fiddler.  If you check "Winston Fitzgerald, A Collection of Fiddle
> Tunes", edited by Paul Cranford, you will find that Winston's most
> popular composers were; Skinner, Henderson [ J. Murdock] Dan R. Mac
> Donald and Marshall in that order with Skinner having more tunes than
> all the others combined. Many of the local composes you list have added
> significantly to the repertoire. As you point out most of these are of
> relatively recent vintage.


Okay, if you're speaking from a "Winston perspective" I can
understand your comments better. I do have the book you mention and a
number of his recordings. And there is no denying the impact Winston's
playing has had on the present generation, and some of their choices of
tunes. 
My question still isn't quite cleared up, however, because when I
asked it I wasn't thinking of just one player (however influential), but
all of the Cape Breton fiddlers I've been fortunate enough to hear either
in person or on recordings. Also the sheer number of tunes by each
composer doesn't really answer the question of how many of them actually
get played, how often, and in what venues. 
The other unanswered piece of the question, which I didn't spell
out (my fault!), is where do Skinner's compositions fit into Cape Breton
step dance tradition - specifically the strathspeys. 
The reason I'm still questioning this is that while I can think of
quite a few "listening strathspeys" by Skinner, I can only come up with
only one that is sometimes associated with him that is commonly played
for step dancers - Devil in the Kitchen - but The Scottish Violinist
credits a W.M. Ross for the composition, and Skinner for the fiddle
arrangement. 
So perhaps looking at it from that viewpoint is my particular
"tunnel vision".. but the step dancing strathspey stands out in such sharp
relief for me as an important, distinctive part of the Cape Breton musical
tradition that I still don't see Skinner as a significant influence on
*that* part of it. Fair enough? 

Wendy

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Re: [scots-l] Birlin'

[Toby Rider]

SUZANNE MACDONALD wrote:


Winston
> Fitzgerald was, in the view of many,  Cape Breton's most influential
> fiddler.  If you check "Winston Fitzgerald, A Collection of Fiddle
> Tunes", edited by Paul Cranford, you will find that Winston's most
> popular composers were; Skinner, Henderson [ J. Murdock] Dan R. Mac
> Donald and Marshall in that order with Skinner having more tunes than
> all the others combined. Many of the local composes you list have added
> significantly to the repertoire. As you point out most of these are of
> relatively recent vintage.
> 
> Alexander
> 

I'm glad you mentioned this about Winston, who was not of Scottish
descent (Irish and French), nor from Inverness County. So by strict
definition he did not "have it in the blood". It just goes to show what
provincial idiots those folks are who are still insisting that if you
aren't 100% Scottish and you aren't from Inverness County, that your
music is subpar and basically worthless. 
Anyone who doesn't believe me, just post something similiar to what I
just said on the cb-music list and count how many flames you will
receive.  


Toby
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Re: [scots-l] Birlin'

[SUZANNE MACDONALD]

Wendy Galovich wrote:

However it seems to me that at the dances and concerts I've been
to on the island, and on the recordings I have, there is a sampling of
Skinner tunes, but the Gows', the Lowes', Marshall's and MacIntosh's
to name a few of the older composers. Among the more recent composers
whose tunes I've frequently heard played in those venues are Dan R.,
John
Campbell, Donald Angus, Kinnon and Joey Beaton, Jerry Holland, Brenda
Stubbert.. the list goes on.
However if I'm understanding you correctly, it sounds like
you're
saying that there are more Skinner tunes in the Cape Breton repertoire
than of any of the composers I just named off. That puzzles because it
doesn't seem to line up with what little experience I've had of the
tradition. Could you please explain further?

The Gows published about 300 tunes [infamous for plagiarizing some of
them] , Marshall about 250, Skinner about 600, Lowes collection is
mostly traditional compositions. Skinner was not only the most prolific
composer but he and  Marshall are in a class by themselves. Winston
Fitzgerald was, in the view of many,  Cape Breton's most influential
fiddler.  If you check "Winston Fitzgerald, A Collection of Fiddle
Tunes", edited by Paul Cranford, you will find that Winston's most
popular composers were; Skinner, Henderson [ J. Murdock] Dan R. Mac
Donald and Marshall in that order with Skinner having more tunes than
all the others combined. Many of the local composes you list have added
significantly to the repertoire. As you point out most of these are of
relatively recent vintage.

Alexander


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Re: [scots-l] Birlin'

[Wendy Galovich]

On Tue, 20 Feb 2001, SUZANNE MACDONALD wrote:

> Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 12:33:01 -0400
> From: SUZANNE MACDONALD <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: [scots-l] Birlin'
> 
> Toby Ryder wrote:
> 
> 
> Is that surprising? I find it to be not in the least bit
> surprising.
> Skinner did alot of things with his playing that were very "classical"
> in nature.
> 
> For me it is surprising. Skinner was hardly unfamiliar with the
> tradition. I find that the "classical" label is placed on Skinner too
> frequently and without foundation and always with a negative
> connotation. I also fnd it odd that this view is held by many people in
> Cape Breton and yet they are playing more of his tunes than anybody
> else's.
> 
> Alexander

With all due respect, Alexander, this last stetement completely
baffles me, and for the sake of learning I'd really appreciate some
clarification. 
Yes, there is a common body of Skinner's tunes floating around in
the Cape Breton repertoire - airs, reels, and some moderate and slow
strathspeys - and of course the variations he composed for
Tullochgorm. I'm aware of those. 
However it seems to me that at the dances and concerts I've been
to on the island, and on the recordings I have, there is a sampling of
Skinner tunes, but the Gows', the Lowes', Marshall's and MacIntosh's 
to name a few of the older composers. Among the more recent composers
whose tunes I've frequently heard played in those venues are Dan R., John
Campbell, Donald Angus, Kinnon and Joey Beaton, Jerry Holland, Brenda
Stubbert.. the list goes on. 
However if I'm understanding you correctly, it sounds like you're
saying that there are more Skinner tunes in the Cape Breton repertoire
than of any of the composers I just named off. That puzzles because it
doesn't seem to line up with what little experience I've had of the
tradition. Could you please explain further? 

Thanks,
Wendy

P.S. and what about that one composer named "Traditional"? I always
thought the biggest chunk of the CB repertoire were his tunes.. :-) 

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Re: [scots-l] Birlin' once more

[Stuart Eydmann]

Regarding birls and Skinner.

My former ethnomusicology tutor Dr Peter Cooke of the School of Scottish
Studies was a bit of a pioneer in using technology as an aid to
understanding the fiddle traditions - hence my own interest in the
scientific approach. Peter's view is that the human ear really needs all the
help it can get in transcribing and analysing such music. You may be
familiar with his book on the Shetland fiddle which includes sound waves of
fiddlers there and I remember him showing me a huge roll of paper which
represented the waveform of a recording of Tommie Potts being transcribed by
Michael O'Sullibhean as part of his PhD thesis which was being examined by
Peter.

Anyway, I've measured a few birls selected at random from a number of Cape
Breton fiddlers (using the 1970s Topic album of tapes by John Shaw) and I
conclude that, if anything, the birls are in fact longer than the Skinner
ones I looked at previously (although there could be a speeding up of the
Skinner recording due to the mechanical recording and playback process).
Furthermore, the general ratio of the three note lengths would appear to be
close to 1:1:3 which is what I measured Skinner at. The Skinner birl seems
to be very crisply executed with the first two notes almost precisely the
same length while there may be a bit more variation in the Cape Breton ones
with the first just a bit shorted than the second - it is difficult to be
precise here. Listening to the Cape Breton record (its one of the few Cape
Breton fiddle disks I don't get tired listening to) I note that the birl
often precedes a long note - am I correct? If so then it might be possible
that the ear links the third note with that which follows - if it does this
could result in the ratio 1:1:6 or so. Hardly a scientific sample but what
do you think?

I can post some more MP3s to explain if necessary.

The more of Skinner's playing I listen to the more of a fan I become. Yes,
he was bilingual in both art and traditional music and he had personality
traits which many find hard to stomach, but, hey, he could certainly birl
and I'd have shared a drop of Talisker with him anytime - I probably would
not take my fiddle out of its case though - I've read what he has said about
sloppy, untutored fiddlers!

Birl on.

Stuart Eydmann

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Re: [scots-l] Birlin'

[Nigel Gatherer]

Toby Rider wrote:

> ...Have you heard those old wax recordings of Skinner? That's what makes
> me think of him as trying to be a "classical" sort of player...

That's interesting. I've always thought that the reason Skinner played
like that was stylistic and a product of its time. Listening to James
Dickie's recordings yields a similar impression, but I don't associate it
with a classical leaning. I'm not the greatest fan of Skinner's style, but
I go along with Alexander in being puzzled at criticism towards his
compositions. He was, in my opinion, a brilliant composer of tunes, and I
don't think he could have written so many that have been accepted into the
repertoire without having had a great understanding and respect for the
tradition.

> ...Buddy MacMaster for certain plays the Spey in the Spate differently
> then Skinner would have...

Absolutely, and let's celebrate that. So does Dick Gaughan. And Aly Bain,
Des Donnelly, Craobh Rua, Jimmy Shand, Dave Swarbrick, Boys of the Lough,
Sean Maguire, Bill Lamey, Jerry Holland, Donna Hinds, Graham Townsend,
and, if I may blow my own trumpet, so does Nigel Gatherer on a mandolin
showcase CD produced in the USA.

-- 
Nigel Gatherer, Crieff, Scotland

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Re: [scots-l] Birlin'

[Toby Rider]

SUZANNE MACDONALD wrote:
> 
> Toby Ryder wrote:
> 
> Is that surprising? I find it to be not in the least bit
> surprising.
> Skinner did alot of things with his playing that were very "classical"
> in nature.
> 
> For me it is surprising. Skinner was hardly unfamiliar with the
> tradition. I find that the "classical" label is placed on Skinner too
> frequently and without foundation and always with a negative
> connotation. I also fnd it odd that this view is held by many people in
> Cape Breton and yet they are playing more of his tunes than anybody
> else's.
> 
> Alexander
> 

Have you heard those old wax recordings of Skinner? That's what makes
me think of him as trying to be a "classical" sort of player. 
It's true that alot of Skinner tunes get played in Cape Breton, I play
alot of Skinner tunes also, however they make them sound like Cape
Breton tunes, as opposed to the way that Skinner played them. Buddy
MacMaster for certain plays the Spey in the Spate differently then
Skinner would have. 
I am glad that written music is open to different intrepretation.

BTW, my surname is not Ryder. I am a Rider, a MacDougall and a Yang,
but not a Ryder :-) 


Toby
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Re: [scots-l] Birlin'

[SUZANNE MACDONALD]

Toby Ryder wrote:


Is that surprising? I find it to be not in the least bit
surprising.
Skinner did alot of things with his playing that were very "classical"
in nature.

For me it is surprising. Skinner was hardly unfamiliar with the
tradition. I find that the "classical" label is placed on Skinner too
frequently and without foundation and always with a negative
connotation. I also fnd it odd that this view is held by many people in
Cape Breton and yet they are playing more of his tunes than anybody
else's.

Alexander

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Re: [scots-l] Birlin'

[Toby Rider]

SUZANNE MACDONALD wrote:

> Interestingly Skinner was playing them much closer to that of a
> classically trained fiddler unfamiliar with the tradition, time ratio
> 1:1:2, that is to say exactly as written.
> David Johnson says that the birl in Scotland is also played in the time
> ratio 1:1:6
> 
> Alexander


Is that surprising? I find it to be not in the least bit surprising.
Skinner did alot of things with his playing that were very "classical"
in nature.


Toby
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Re: [scots-l] Birlin'

[SUZANNE MACDONALD]

In an e-mail dated 14 Jan. I  stated that the birl in Cape Breton was
played [on the fiddle]  not as written, i. e. two sixteenth notes
followed by an eighth but two thirty-second notes followed by a dotted
eighth. So far so good. But my arithmetic analysis following was in
error. The time ratio of the three notes is not 1:1:3 but 1:1:6. As
played in Cape Breton then the birl is much faster than that of Skinner
which was 1:1:3 as reported in an earlier e-mail by Start Eydmann.
Interestingly Skinner was playing them much closer to that of a
classically trained fiddler unfamiliar with the tradition, time ratio
1:1:2, that is to say exactly as written.
David Johnson says that the birl in Scotland is also played in the time
ratio 1:1:6

Alexander



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[Fwd: [scots-l] Birlin' \ Cape Breton Wiggle]

[Toby Rider]

 


Keith W Dunn wrote:
> 
> I've enjoyed the thorough discussions on the birlin' ..but I was also
> interested to know if anyone has ever used an ornament I was told was
> called a "Cape Breton Wiggle"? 

Isn't that a reel step? :-) Just kidding. I know which finger ornaments
you're thinking of.

 Perhaps there's another name for it but
> this is all that I know it's called.  I brought this up this past Oct.
> but didn't get much discussion on it.
> It simply is a quick touch of the string without pressure.only a
> feather-like touchthat is, just enough to interrupt the note..not
> change it.  Atleast that's what I get out of it.
> This was shown to me by Laura Risk.along with something else she
> called a "flick".  ( I think that was her name for it. )
> To get a more thourough clarification of the "Cape Breton Wiggle", ( If
> it is indeed what I've described above ) would this be what I hear some
> more advanced fiddle players use to create the effect of the "change of
> notes" sound that I hear on the bagpipes?

For an example, listen to John Campbell, he uses those all the time.
I've got John on regular rotation on the station so I'm sure you'll hear
him on there at some point.
Kate & David's book analyzes those quite well. As with any ornament, it
can be overdone. The key is in picking the right place to throw those
it. 
If I were you, I would spend alot more time focusing on the bowing,
especially the cuts, loops, etc.. Bowing is what makes Scottish fiddling
what it is. If you have the bowing really right, you don't even need to
use left-hand ornaments and you will be a very powerful and soulful
player. Example, Kinnon Beaton. He uses no fingerboard ornaments. The
fingerboard ornaments are mostly quite easy and sort of icing on the
cake. It's all in the bow.


Toby

[scots-l] Birlin' \ Cape Breton Wiggle

[Keith W Dunn]

I've enjoyed the thorough discussions on the birlin' ..but I was also
interested to know if anyone has ever used an ornament I was told was
called a "Cape Breton Wiggle"?  Perhaps there's another name for it but
this is all that I know it's called.  I brought this up this past Oct.
but didn't get much discussion on it.
It simply is a quick touch of the string without pressure.only a
feather-like touchthat is, just enough to interrupt the note..not
change it.  Atleast that's what I get out of it.
This was shown to me by Laura Risk.along with something else she
called a "flick".  ( I think that was her name for it. )
To get a more thourough clarification of the "Cape Breton Wiggle", ( If
it is indeed what I've described above ) would this be what I hear some
more advanced fiddle players use to create the effect of the "change of
notes" sound that I hear on the bagpipes?
If what I've described above is not that soundwould anyone else
know what it is called?
I still have a lot of work to do on the Birlin'.

Thanks;
Keith Dunn
Marietta, Ga.


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[scots-l] Birlin' + styles

[Jack Campin]

> I've tried several of the suggested techniques, and haven't had any 
> success.   Sort of like I've hit the "birlin' wall..."

What was the tune you had a problem with?...

Checkpoint Charlie Is My Darling?
The Strathspey That Came In From The Cold?

===  ===


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Re: [scots-l] Birlin'

[Kate Dunlay or David Greenberg]

One tune I find myself doing up-down-up cuts/birls on is "The Sound of
Mull."  I don't arrive there on purpose but if I forget to plan ahead on
this tune, they end up that way, which is upside-down for me.  (I don't
mind back-to-back cuts though.)  "The Sound of Mull" isn't shown with cuts
in the Athole Collection, but I heard it that way in Cape Breton -- first
quarter note of the second measure.

- Kate D.

--
Kate Dunlay & David Greenberg
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada
http://www.total.net/~dungreen


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Re: [scots-l] Birlin' + styles

[Toby Rider]

Derek Hoy wrote:
> 
> > I've tried several of the suggested techniques, and haven't had any
> > success.   Sort of like I've hit the "birlin' wall..."
> 
> Ouch  :)
> 


Don't worry, the wall will come down. Just like the real one :-)
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Re: [scots-l] Birlin' + styles

[Derek Hoy]

> I've tried several of the suggested techniques, and haven't had any 
> success.   Sort of like I've hit the "birlin' wall..."

Ouch  :)

Derek
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Re: [scots-l] Birlin' + styles

[Orain Ghaidhlig]

I've tried several of the suggested techniques, and haven't had any success. 
  Sort of like I've hit the "birlin' wall..."

I'll go back to my room now...  



>Derek Hoy wrote:
>
> > I think there's an unhealthy obsession now with the 'correct' way of 
>playing,
> > particularly 'regional styles'.  Seems that certain players are 
>identified
> > with a style, probably because they teach/record a lot, and anything 
>that
> > doesn't sound like that can't be 'correct'.
> >
>
_
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Re: [scots-l] Birlin' + styles

[Toby Rider]

Derek Hoy wrote:

> I think there's an unhealthy obsession now with the 'correct' way of playing,
> particularly 'regional styles'.  Seems that certain players are identified
> with a style, probably because they teach/record a lot, and anything that
> doesn't sound like that can't be 'correct'.
> 


I've run into that quite a bit, esp. with Cape Breton players, because
recently certain players have gotten so much publicity.  You would never
think that Alex Francis MacKay and Natalie MacMaster come from the same
planet. Yet is one way of playing is not any better then the other. 



Toby
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Re: [scots-l] Birlin' + styles

[Derek Hoy]

Stuart said:
> I was giving a fiddle workshop in Talinn, Estonia where a Swedish fiddler 
> observed that I always seemed to start on an up bow and that she had 
> noticed this with a number of other Scottish and Irish fiddlers. I am 
> wholly self taught (ok, it shows!) and therefore never had the teacher 
> leading instruction pieces with the down bow or telling me to start that 
> way. Like the birls, I don't think about it infact I can't think about it 
> without falling off the fiddle.

Thanks Stuart.  Sounds like a case of the Wee Kirkcudbright Centipede?

I think there's an unhealthy obsession now with the 'correct' way of playing, 
particularly 'regional styles'.  Seems that certain players are identified 
with a style, probably because they teach/record a lot, and anything that 
doesn't sound like that can't be 'correct'.

I was listening to a CD of an old Shetland bloke, Gibbie Hutchison (I will 
return it some time Stuart).  You wouldn't think that him and Catriona 
MacDonald come from the same planet, let alone the same wee group of islands.
When Tom Anderson collected and revived the older Shetland music, a result was 
that the settings he used became standard versions of the tunes, and they're 
what most people play.  Listen to Viljafjord and these syncopated bits that 
are always played- makes me squirm  :)

I think folks should be more relaxed about how they produce their music.  Get 
the sound you like in your head, then see how it comes out when you try.

Derek
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Re: [scots-l] Birlin'

[binkies]

Derek said:

   >I seem to recall discussing this with Stuart Eydmann once-  Stuart had some 
   >evidence that 'down bow on the first beat' was not so common among self-taught 
   >traditional fiddlers.

I was giving a fiddle workshop in Talinn, Estonia where a Swedish fiddler observed 
that I always seemed to start on an up bow and that she had noticed this with a number 
of other Scottish and Irish fiddlers. I am wholly self taught (ok, it shows!) and 
therefore never had the teacher leading instruction pieces with the down bow or 
telling me to start that way. Like the birls, I don't think about it infact I can't 
think about it without falling off the fiddle.

Stuart
  

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Re: [scots-l] Birlin'

[Derek Hoy]

Steve said:
> ...  However I read
> recently that most Irish fiddlers play the ornament down-up-down as well.  I
> guess that's the problem with being self-taught; you tend to do things a bit
> differently! -Steve

That's interesting.  A few folk have commented on this 'natural' down bow on a 
beat thing.  I don't think it's necessarily natural at all- it's just the 
first thing you learn if you are taught to play.

I seem to recall discussing this with Stuart Eydmann once-  Stuart had some 
evidence that 'down bow on the first beat' was not so common among self-taught 
traditional fiddlers.

For what it's worth, I often use an up bow on first beats, and beats I'm 
emphasising, so I'm a bit touchy about being seen as a fiddle pervert  :)

Derek
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Re: [scots-l] Birlin'

[Toby Rider]

Ha..ha..ha.. This is priceless :-)



Derek Hoy wrote:

> 'Thank you for your communication.  Mr Peoples is currently in high altitude
> training in preparation for the World Championships.
> Your figures are similar to previous findings by Trinity College Dublin,
> although these were done at sea level.
> There is currently a proposal awaiting funding from Brussels to have Tommy
> taken to the CERN labs beneath the Swiss Alps.  Here the 5 km testing chamber
> can give more accurate result by ruling out Doppler effects from movements of
> the fiddle, and interference from cosmic birls.
> We will keep you posted.'
> 
> Derek
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Re: [scots-l] Birlin'

[Derek Hoy]

Stuart opined:
> The principal conclusions are:
> 
> 1Skinner could certainly do it
> 2The birl is very fast ( 0.320 sec, approx)
> 3The third note is considerably longer than the first two in the
> proportions 1 : 1 : 3
> 
> This is a birl as part of the melody of the tune - for many fiddlers its an
> optional extra or ornament but I would suggest that the principal is the
> same.
> 
> Any other thoughts and comments?

Enough of this idle speculation re birls- let's follow Dr Eydmann's example 
and introduce some science into the discussion.

I spent today in the lab and analysed 4 specimens representing different 
fiddle styles:

1.  Peerie Ceecil Pottinger, from Yell, Shetland.

A sample taken from Peerie Ceecil's 'Muckla Skerry a' Three' provided a fine 
example of the Shetland 'crunch'- timed at 15.2 eydmenn (+/- .4)

2.  Tommy Peoples, Donegal

Tommy's 'Bucks of Oranmore' yielded a 'crackle' of 19.7 eydmenn (+/- .2)

3   F. Scott Skinner (J Scott's wee brother)

'Deil in the Kitchen', a snap measured 14.3, and a birl of 34 eydmenn, showing 
remarkable consistency with Dr Eydmann's findings.  I should note that 
Skinner's birls varied according to how frequently my assistant cranked the 
gramophone.

4Ron Gonella didn't favour the birl, but like other Scottish vilinists, 
used the 'pop', which is very neat, but relatively slow, at 52 eydmenn.

I faxed the results to Tommy Peoples' agent, Max O'Kellogg in Dublin, and got 
this reply:

'Thank you for your communication.  Mr Peoples is currently in high altitude 
training in preparation for the World Championships. 
Your figures are similar to previous findings by Trinity College Dublin, 
although these were done at sea level.
There is currently a proposal awaiting funding from Brussels to have Tommy 
taken to the CERN labs beneath the Swiss Alps.  Here the 5 km testing chamber 
can give more accurate result by ruling out Doppler effects from movements of 
the fiddle, and interference from cosmic birls.
We will keep you posted.'

Derek
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Re: [scots-l] Birlin'

[SUZANNE MACDONALD]

Oops!!

My earlier e-mail  today [January 16] should have read "eighth" notes
not eight. Sorry.

Alexander

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Re: [scots-l] Birlin'

[SUZANNE MACDONALD]

Re  "birls" and the tunes "Brenda Stubbert's" and "Molly Rankin"s" {Cape
Breton Compositions} the execution of  the down-up-down birl on these
tunes is straight forward if you play the first beat of the measure with
a down bow; the former has the birl on the first beat and the latter has
it on the "and" of the first beat with two eight notes before it which
gives you a down bow for the birl.  Fiddlers might be interested in the
birling of the following tunes; "The Ale  Is Dear"  which has two birls
in several measures each separated by two eight notes. Exclusive
down-up-down birls would require every pair of eight notes to be
slurred. For me that's not very interesting. Two Skinner reels with the
same characteristics are "The Bungalow" and  "Miss Mary Walker".  On the
other hand there are many options with these types of tunes if one can
also bow up-down-up.  Another interesting tune in this regard is the
strathspey "The Devil in the Kitchen" where there are successive birls.

Alexander

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Re: [scots-l] Birlin'

[Steve Wyrick]

Kate Dunlay or David Greenberg wrote:

>>> Almost all Cape Breton players play birls with a down-up-down bow.
>> I've always played this ornament up-down-up but
>> recently have been making an effort to learn the reverse, for pretty much
>> the same reasons you listed above.  I didn't realize the CB fiddlers played
>> this ornament down-up-down, but now I understand why I was having trouble
>> with certain tunes I've encountered!  I'm curious though, does anyone know
>> WHY the CB players play the birl this way, and not the reverse?  Tradition,
>> or is there some technical reason?
> 
> I would guess it's because they prefer to have a downbow happening on the
> beat (think how in "Brenda Stubbert's Reel" the cuts strongly start out so
> many measures), which makes for stronger dance music.  Then after that it
> becomes a habit.  BTW cuts do happen on offbeats in reels such as "Molly
> Rankin's," so it would be interesting to take a survey of how fiddlers bow
> that one.
> 
> - Kate D.

Yes, Brenda Stubbert's was one of the first tunes I learned that made me
realize I had a problem!  There's really no other way to play those cuts.

I'm not familiar with Molly Rankin's but I started out in the Irish
tradition and there are a lot of Irish reels that use this ornament
following 2 eighth notes, on the offbeat (Drogheda Lasses, Col. Rodney, The
Old Bush, to name a few).   In this situation I wanted my accents on the
beats, so the obvious way (I thought!) to play this was: slur the 2 8th
notes on a down bow, take the triplet up-down-up, then downbow on the
following beat.  That puts the accents where they belong.  However I read
recently that most Irish fiddlers play the ornament down-up-down as well.  I
guess that's the problem with being self-taught; you tend to do things a bit
differently! -Steve
-- 
Steve Wyrick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> -- Concord, CA

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Re: [scots-l] Birlin'

[Clarsaich]

Just two cents: wire harpers do this quite handily. We just roll our 
fingernails on the strings...one-two-THREE. 
For what it's worth, I think I do it on the beat. Sometimes it's hard to 
tell, if I'm playing fast enough!
--Cynthia Cathcart
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Re: [scots-l] Birlin'

[Denny Sayre]

I don't know about anyone else, but I'd like to hear more of this and your
other Skinner recordings.

>
> If only we could ask Scott Skinner! Well, can I offer the next best thing?
> I've been working on some old Skinner recordings, clearing out some of the
> noise so that you can hear just what he was doing and I've extracted a
birl
> from his "The Devil in the Kitchen" and posted it as an MP3:
>
> www.sol.co.uk/w/whistlebinkies/birls/birl1.mp3
>
>
> Any other thoughts and comments?
>
>
> Stuart Eydmann
>


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Re: [scots-l] Birlin'

[Wendy Galovich]

At 11:19 PM 1/14/2001 -0600, Kate Dunlay or David Greenberg wrote:
>
>I would guess it's because they prefer to have a downbow happening on the
>beat (think how in "Brenda Stubbert's Reel" the cuts strongly start out so
>many measures), which makes for stronger dance music.  Then after that it
>becomes a habit.  BTW cuts do happen on offbeats in reels such as "Molly
>Rankin's," so it would be interesting to take a survey of how fiddlers bow
>that one.
>
>- Kate D.

Well, in general where offbeat cuts turn up.. I usually single-bow 
the pair of eighth notes before the cut down-up, and bow the cut down-up-
down. If the cut is followed by a pair of eighth notes, I either connect 
the first eighth note into the last note of the cut as a downbowed loop 
(which I prefer), or simply loop the two following eighth notes together 
on an upbow, so that the next downbeat falls on a downbow. 

Wendy

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Re: [scots-l] Birlin'

[Toby Rider]

Keith W Dunn wrote:
> 
> If I'm thinking correctly as to what a "birlin' " sounds like..I've
> head Alasdair Fraser play this ornament many times and each timeit
> sounds like a very fast, accurate "bow" triplet with the same "exact"
> number of notes ( triplet - 3 )  every time he plays it.  Sometimes,
> serveral times in a row.  This appears to be something that will take
> quiet a bit of hard practice to accomplish.

That's just a cut, or sometimes double cut. They are really not hard to
do at all. You just need to practice them correctly and understand the
physics of how to get that sound. Loose wrist, loose fingers, relatively
stationary upper arm. You will also find it much easier if you grip the
bow about 2 inches higher then the standard classical bow grip.  
I actually can do cuts on the upbow just fine now. A few years ago I
was convinced that I'd never be able to do clean cuts on the upbow.
Tommy People's from County Donegal, Ireland, does some pretty nice
cuttings on upbows. Ashley MacIssac will also sometimes throw upbow cuts
out, probably just because he can :-) The "Model A Jig", which he
co-wrote with Al Bennett (it's on Mary Jane Lamond's first album) has a
nice little upbow cut in the first turn.
It really gets interesting when you start doing some of the loops into
cuts. Alex Francis does those all the time. By throwing those in the
appropriate places, you can start to get some nice textural richness,
especially on those old A and E modal strathspeys. 


Toby
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Re: [scots-l] Birlin'

[SUZANNE MACDONALD]

Steve Wyrick wrote:

This is interesting.  I'm classically trained but pretty much
self-taught in
Irish & Scottish fiddling.  I've always played this ornament up-down-up
but
recently have been making an effort to learn the reverse, for pretty
much
the same reasons you listed above.  I didn't realize the CB fiddlers
played
this ornament down-up-down, but now I understand why I was having
trouble
with certain tunes I've encountered!  I'm curious though, does anyone
know
WHY the CB players play the birl this way, and not the reverse?
Tradition,
or is there some technical reason?

It is more "natural" to play a down bow on the beat and the birl is
always on the beat if you consider reels are in 4/4;  if you think of
them as in 2/4 they are on the beat or follow two eight notes which
again results in a down bow to begin the birl if the measure began with
a down bow.  Many tunes begin and end with a birl. Most people have
difficulty with executing the birl and having acquired the skill to do
it down-up-down don't feel a great need to learn it the other way. They
simply slur two notes when necessary to "right the bow" to get a down
motion for the birl. I can understand your difficulty in playing
up-down-up birls all or most of the time because I suspect that many
composers were down-up-down only players and therefor composed tunes
which catered to that method of execution and were unaware of the
difficulty of doing it the other way.

I hope this is helpful.

Alexander

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Re: [scots-l] Birlin'

[Toby Rider]

Kate Dunlay or David Greenberg wrote:
> 
> >> Almost all Cape Breton players play birls with a down-up-down bow.
> >I've always played this ornament up-down-up but
> >recently have been making an effort to learn the reverse, for pretty much
> >the same reasons you listed above.  I didn't realize the CB fiddlers played
> >this ornament down-up-down, but now I understand why I was having trouble
> >with certain tunes I've encountered!  I'm curious though, does anyone know
> >WHY the CB players play the birl this way, and not the reverse?  Tradition,
> >or is there some technical reason?
> 
> I would guess it's because they prefer to have a downbow happening on the
> beat (think how in "Brenda Stubbert's Reel" the cuts strongly start out so
> many measures), which makes for stronger dance music.  Then after that it
> becomes a habit.  BTW cuts do happen on offbeats in reels such as "Molly
> Rankin's," so it would be interesting to take a survey of how fiddlers bow
> that one.
> 
> - Kate D.
> 

I think I do some loop bowing on Molly Rankin's in order to make the
cuts happen with the right bow directions. That's a fun little tune.


Toby
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Re: [scots-l] Birlin'

[SUZANNE MACDONALD]

Stuart Eydman said regarding his scientific analysis of  Scott Skinner's
birling technique as heard on one of his recordings:

The principal conclusions are:

1Skinner could certainly do it
2The birl is very fast ( 0.320 sec, approx)
3The third note is considerably longer than the first two in the
proportions 1 : 1 : 3

This analysis coincides completely with the Cape Breton birl which is
described in my earlier e-mail today, i.e. two thirty-second notes
followed by a dotted eight, 1: 1: 3,  not two sixteenth notes followed
by an eight or 1: 1: 2 as it is written.  I can also appreciate the
difficulty you refer to in getting a large group to play birls together.

Many thanks for responding to my query.

Alexander

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Re: [scots-l] Birlin'

[Kate Dunlay or David Greenberg]

>> Almost all Cape Breton players play birls with a down-up-down bow.
>I've always played this ornament up-down-up but
>recently have been making an effort to learn the reverse, for pretty much
>the same reasons you listed above.  I didn't realize the CB fiddlers played
>this ornament down-up-down, but now I understand why I was having trouble
>with certain tunes I've encountered!  I'm curious though, does anyone know
>WHY the CB players play the birl this way, and not the reverse?  Tradition,
>or is there some technical reason?

I would guess it's because they prefer to have a downbow happening on the
beat (think how in "Brenda Stubbert's Reel" the cuts strongly start out so
many measures), which makes for stronger dance music.  Then after that it
becomes a habit.  BTW cuts do happen on offbeats in reels such as "Molly
Rankin's," so it would be interesting to take a survey of how fiddlers bow
that one.

- Kate D.

--
Kate Dunlay & David Greenberg
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada
http://www.total.net/~dungreen


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Re: [scots-l] Birlin'

[Steve Wyrick]

SUZANNE MACDONALD wrote:

> Almost all Cape Breton players play birls with a down-up-down bow.
> Up-down-up players are rare and  players with both birls even rarer. The
> latter have distinct advantages. For example the inevitable slurring of
> notes which necessarily accompanies birls can be moved around or in some
> cases eliminated if desired, resulting in a variety of options in the
> playing of the tune. This is especially desirable in playing repeats;
> alternate bowing of the same notes making the tune sound "different"
> and have a pleasing effect on the ear.
> 

This is interesting.  I'm classically trained but pretty much self-taught in
Irish & Scottish fiddling.  I've always played this ornament up-down-up but
recently have been making an effort to learn the reverse, for pretty much
the same reasons you listed above.  I didn't realize the CB fiddlers played
this ornament down-up-down, but now I understand why I was having trouble
with certain tunes I've encountered!  I'm curious though, does anyone know
WHY the CB players play the birl this way, and not the reverse?  Tradition,
or is there some technical reason?
-- 
Steve Wyrick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> -- Concord, CA

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Re: [scots-l] Birlin'

[Janice Lane]

Derek Hoy wrote that Tommy Peoples "has a
> particular technique, which looks like he is flicking >the pinkie of his
bow hand."
That is exactly what a piper does in a birl. The little finger of the right
hand flicks over the bottom hole-between G and A. As he also said, it is one
movement, not three.
 I never realized that some notes in piping have to be ornamented to be
heard. Once the bag is filled, air comes out and cannot be stopped by
tonguing as with other wind instruments. So to make a repeated note, like A,
A, there has to be another note in between - hence the birl. Of course,
sometimes ornaments are just for pleasure as well.
Birls are easier on the pipes than on the fiddle, but _good_ birls are
difficult on both.
Jan Lane


- Original Message -
From: "Derek Hoy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, January 13, 2001 10:49 PM
Subject: Re: [scots-l] Birlin'


> Different styles do these differently- basically wee bowed triplets on the
one
> note.
> Some folks like them nice and neat- 3 clear notes.  As Toby mentioned,
Tommy
> Peoples is famous for his- they're like electrical crackles.  He has a
> particular technique, which looks like he is flicking the pinkie of his
bow
> hand, but I think this is just something he puts in for effect when folks
are
> watching :)  The sound is more to do with having a tight bow and using
more
> pressure than most players.  But he's spent a lifetime perfecting it.
> The old Shetland players had more of a 'crunch'- you couldn't really hear
a
> triplet at all.
> Scottish players generally like to get them nice and crisp, so you hardly
hear
> the notes.  It's the rhythm that's important.
>
> It's one of these things that's hard to learn when you just play/think of
it
> as 3 bits.  It needs to become one movement.
>
> Derek
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Re: [scots-l] Birlin'

[Toby Rider]

Jeri Corlew wrote:
> 
> On Sun, 14 Jan 2001 01:27:13 -0500, Wendy Galovich wrote:
> 
> >At 07:25 PM 1/13/2001 -0500, Jeri Corlew wrote:
> >>
> >I don't play with
> >>my hand that way most of the time, but it did help to learn the movement
> >>needed.
> >
> >   Ah, we differ a bit there - for me adopting that bow hold was an
> >end in itself. I made a point of learning it after getting some good
> >advice, and seeing it used so effectively by many CB fiddlers. What I've
> >found is that it really does make it easier to do the type of bowing
> >called for in CB fiddling, with good deal less wear and tear on a number
> >of joints that remind me in no uncertain terms when I batter them too
> >much.
> 
> It's simply a different way of playing for me and I have to think about
> playing that way to keep doing it.  I should put a bit of effort into
> making it a habit, as it seems a more natural movement and I have more
> control that way.  The up-and-down motion is a lot safer in sessions, too.
> ;-)
> 

Keep in mind that playing with the fiddle tilted, fundamentally changes
some things about the sound of the instrument and it does make it more
difficult to do certain things, like for instance playing in the upper
positions. Not that you can't do it, but I find shifting positions more
difficult with the sideways fiddle tilt. 
So as with any other choice, it's a matter of compromise. I personally
decided to start playing that way about 4 years ago because, for the
specific things that I wanted to try to accomplish, that choice made it
that much easier. 


Toby
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Re: [scots-l] Birlin'

[Jeri Corlew]

On Sun, 14 Jan 2001 01:27:13 -0500, Wendy Galovich wrote:

>At 07:25 PM 1/13/2001 -0500, Jeri Corlew wrote:
>>
>I don't play with
>>my hand that way most of the time, but it did help to learn the movement
>>needed.
>
>   Ah, we differ a bit there - for me adopting that bow hold was an 
>end in itself. I made a point of learning it after getting some good 
>advice, and seeing it used so effectively by many CB fiddlers. What I've 
>found is that it really does make it easier to do the type of bowing 
>called for in CB fiddling, with good deal less wear and tear on a number 
>of joints that remind me in no uncertain terms when I batter them too 
>much. 

It's simply a different way of playing for me and I have to think about
playing that way to keep doing it.  I should put a bit of effort into
making it a habit, as it seems a more natural movement and I have more
control that way.  The up-and-down motion is a lot safer in sessions, too.
;-)

>   BTW Jeri, are you in the New England area? (I'm in CT.) 

I'm in New Hampshire - not too far away from you.

Jeri
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Re: [scots-l] Birlin'

[Keith W Dunn]

If I'm thinking correctly as to what a "birlin' " sounds like..I've
head Alasdair Fraser play this ornament many times and each timeit
sounds like a very fast, accurate "bow" triplet with the same "exact"
number of notes ( triplet - 3 )  every time he plays it.  Sometimes,
serveral times in a row.  This appears to be something that will take
quiet a bit of hard practice to accomplish.
The bow bounce seems to never have the same number of notes but does seem
to have nearly the same effect.  I suppose I would really have to "see"
how these two are performed before I could ever work them out correctly. 
The written instructions help to some degree but not fully.  

Keith Dunn
Marietta,Ga.


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Re: [scots-l] Birlin'

[Stuart Eydmann]

Happy New Year!

Suzanne MacDonald asked:

"Also I have hand-written music notated by the leader of one of
Scotland's best  known  Strathspey and Reel groups which included tunes
composed by Dan R. Mac Donald in which the birls were eliminated.
Astonishingly, one tune in particular "Trip to Windsor" had to have been
copied from a commercial recording of Winston Fitzgerald  because Winston's
version
differed from all published versions [parts of Winston's version are
Mixolodian],  did of course include birls, but in the notated version they
were eliminated. Perhaps someone from Scotland would comment."

Commenting from Scotland, I would agree with Skinner and Johnson that the
birl is an important and surviving component of fiddle music here. However,
for many "refined" players and players of a "classical" background have
worked to remove it from the music because 1. it is seen as something
"coarse" and 2. becuase they just can't do it convincingly! Also, in fiddle
ensemble playing, such as in strathspey and reel bands, the conductors have
long frowned on the practice as it is impossible to get scores of fiddlers
all birlin away at the same time and in the same manner.

If only we could ask Scott Skinner! Well, can I offer the next best thing?
I've been working on some old Skinner recordings, clearing out some of the
noise so that you can hear just what he was doing and I've extracted a birl
from his "The Devil in the Kitchen" and posted it as an MP3:

www.sol.co.uk/w/whistlebinkies/birls/birl1.mp3

Through the wonders of modern science I also slowed the recording doen to
twice the length while retaining the pitch (which is sharp of modern
concert):

www.sol.co.uk/w/whistlebinkies/birls/birl2.mp3

I've also posted an image of the wave pattern for the birl woth the notes
attached:

www.sol.co.uk/w/whistlebinkies/birls/birl1.gif

The principal conclusions are:

1Skinner could certainly do it
2The birl is very fast ( 0.320 sec, approx)
3The third note is considerably longer than the first two in the
proportions 1 : 1 : 3

This is a birl as part of the melody of the tune - for many fiddlers its an
optional extra or ornament but I would suggest that the principal is the
same.

Any other thoughts and comments?


Stuart Eydmann

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Re: [scots-l] Birlin'

[SUZANNE MACDONALD]

Re many e-mails of the subject of "Birlin", here's my take on the
subject.  The birls are called "cuts" [translation from Gaelic] in Cape
Breton. They are written in the Scottish books as three repeated notes,
two sixteenth and one eight, [in my Irish books they are written as
triplets]  but in Cape Breton they are not played as written but more
like two thirty-second notes followed by a dotted eight or followed by
an eight and a sixteenth rest. [Someone mentioned that a classically
trained player plays them differently than a fiddler;  in my experience
what the Classical player is doing is playing the tune exactly as
written not as traditionally played.] As to execution, the arm, wrist
and fingers are involved with the largest movement in the wrist with no
tension present. Cape Breton fiddlers play the birls in the upper half
of the bow. The specific placement of the bow on the string is a
function of the bow hold. Fiddlers who grip the bow above the frog with
the index finger and thumb tend to play at the tip whereas fiddlers who
use a classical grip [all five digits, or at least four leaving out the
pinkie, at the frog] place the bow anywhere from the middle to the tip
depending on what effect they want. The desired effect is different not
only from reel to reel but from strathspey to reel. The classical grip
player has more control over bow weight and can lighten the natural bow
pressure which exists at the middle of the bow due to bow weight but
retain the more percussive sound obtainable there.  On the other hand
the thumb and index finger bow grip player must place the bow where the
natural weight of the bow is suitable. Also because the birl occurs in
strathspeys as well as reels, bow placement  and accompanying effect are
different for each.

Almost all Cape Breton players play birls with a down-up-down bow.
Up-down-up players are rare and  players with both birls even rarer. The
latter have distinct advantages. For example the inevitable slurring of
notes which necessarily accompanies birls can be moved around or in some
cases eliminated if desired, resulting in a variety of options in the
playing of the tune. This is especially desirable in playing repeats;
alternate bowing of the same notes making the tune sound "different"
and have a pleasing effect on the ear.

Some writers describe the birl as not being distinctive notes to the
listener but as a sort of ripple resembling the grace notes on the
pipes. I hear distinctive notes and the better the player the more
distinctive they are.

I am curious about the use of the birl in Scotland. Skinner in "A Guide
to Bowing" describes  the birl as "a feature of the best reels."  David
Johnson describe them as "still going strong at the present day" and yet
in recordings I own they are missing, for example Ron Gonella. Also I
have hand-written music notated by the leader of one of Scotland's best
known  Strathspey and Reel groups which included tunes composed by Dan
R. Mac Donald in which the birls were eliminated. Astonishingly, one
tune in particular "Trip to Windsor" had to have been copied from a
commercial recording of Winston Fitzgerald  because Winston's version
differed from all published versions [parts of Winston's version are
Mixolodian],  did of course include birls, but in the notated version
they were eliminated. Perhaps someone from Scotland would comment.

Alexander

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Re: [scots-l] Birlin'

[Toby Rider]

Wendy Galovich wrote:
> 
> At 07:25 PM 1/13/2001 -0500, Jeri Corlew wrote:
> >
> >I was mostly joking about the "every now and then" bit, but I'm a long way
> >from having mastered the technique.  I figure if it feels right, I simply
> >need more practice.  This may sound weird, but I found it helped me to turn
> >my hand so the movement was more up and down than sideways.  (I noticed
> >Harvey Tolman plays like that, and decided to try it.)
> 
> It's not weird - he uses the old traditional Cape Breton way of
> holding the fiddle with the top nearly vertical and the instrument much
> more out in front of him than the standard classical hold, and that en-
> ables him to bow up and down rather than horizontally across the strings.
> It also neatly facilitates the way he uses his wrist. Many Cape Breton
> fiddlers play that way - John Campbell, Alex Francis MacKay, David Green-
> berg, to mention just a few.

Yes, I hold my fiddle like that. Don't try to balance a marble on the
top of my fiddle when I'm playing :-) It fundamentally changes the
physics of how your bow draws sounds from the strings. 


> David and Harvey have got the most fluid wrists I've ever seen,
> and in spite of his huge hands, John Campbell is almost delicate in the
> way he handles the bow. I haven't seen Alex Francis play (maybe Toby
> can tell us about that), but judging from the broad variations in sound
> that he is able to draw from the instrument, I'd have to guess that it's
> similar to the others.

Alex Francis does some really weird stuff. His playing is unlike anyone
else's currently alive on CB Island. He'll take a very stock tune out of
one of the old collections and instantly apply Alex Francis-ism's to it.
Then when he's done, he'll talk about how much money he hopes in win at
Bingo this week. :-)  Seriously, he has some very pipey left-hand stuff
he does, and alot of his bowing seemed to vary in pressure at least
three different places during the course of his bowstroke. I could put
up a sound sample of a good clear piece of his playing if people would
be interested in listening to it. 
He's also one of the few players left that spoke Gaelic before they
spoke English.


Toby
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Re: [scots-l] Birlin'

[Jeffrey Friedman]

Wendy,
I heard you CB fiddle a bit last night. Playing last night pretty much
sucked. It was as bad as Greg's session. There was a bunch of people there
who frequent the City Steam session, and screw up the timing there also.
It is not the hard. 1,2,3,4. As a rhythm player, I should have brought the
guitar banjo, so I could be louder than them at least. I got into a
discussion with Fred and Linda (or Laura-from Marlborough you sold the
fiddle to) about timing and triplets and Greg, and they said that Greg's
timing had improved immensely. I said basically crap, he was out of time
with his own tapping foot, last time. Boy, I tell you, as soon as Mickey
starts to play loud, she goes out of time too.
Well, I'm off to the gym, and to my least favorite store these days. Lowe's.
When I'm there it means that I have a home project going on. The insurance
company says we must install a handrail on the front steps. We really do
need to paint the upstairs hallway, stairway and downstairs hall. Probably
the kitchen too. I hate painting.
Regards to Bill.
Jeff
- Original Message -
From: "Wendy Galovich" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, January 14, 2001 1:27 AM
Subject: Re: [scots-l] Birlin'


> At 07:25 PM 1/13/2001 -0500, Jeri Corlew wrote:
> >
> >I was mostly joking about the "every now and then" bit, but I'm a long
way
> >from having mastered the technique.  I figure if it feels right, I simply
> >need more practice.  This may sound weird, but I found it helped me to
turn
> >my hand so the movement was more up and down than sideways.  (I noticed
> >Harvey Tolman plays like that, and decided to try it.)
>
> It's not weird - he uses the old traditional Cape Breton way of
> holding the fiddle with the top nearly vertical and the instrument much
> more out in front of him than the standard classical hold, and that en-
> ables him to bow up and down rather than horizontally across the strings.
> It also neatly facilitates the way he uses his wrist. Many Cape Breton
> fiddlers play that way - John Campbell, Alex Francis MacKay, David Green-
> berg, to mention just a few.
> David and Harvey have got the most fluid wrists I've ever seen,
> and in spite of his huge hands, John Campbell is almost delicate in the
> way he handles the bow. I haven't seen Alex Francis play (maybe Toby
> can tell us about that), but judging from the broad variations in sound
> that he is able to draw from the instrument, I'd have to guess that it's
> similar to the others.
>
> I don't play with
> >my hand that way most of the time, but it did help to learn the movement
> >needed.
>
> Ah, we differ a bit there - for me adopting that bow hold was an
> end in itself. I made a point of learning it after getting some good
> advice, and seeing it used so effectively by many CB fiddlers. What I've
> found is that it really does make it easier to do the type of bowing
> called for in CB fiddling, with good deal less wear and tear on a number
> of joints that remind me in no uncertain terms when I batter them too
> much.
> BTW Jeri, are you in the New England area? (I'm in CT.)
>
> Wendy
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Re: [scots-l] Birlin'

[Wendy Galovich]

At 07:25 PM 1/13/2001 -0500, Jeri Corlew wrote:
>
>I was mostly joking about the "every now and then" bit, but I'm a long way
>from having mastered the technique.  I figure if it feels right, I simply
>need more practice.  This may sound weird, but I found it helped me to turn
>my hand so the movement was more up and down than sideways.  (I noticed
>Harvey Tolman plays like that, and decided to try it.)  

It's not weird - he uses the old traditional Cape Breton way of 
holding the fiddle with the top nearly vertical and the instrument much 
more out in front of him than the standard classical hold, and that en-
ables him to bow up and down rather than horizontally across the strings. 
It also neatly facilitates the way he uses his wrist. Many Cape Breton 
fiddlers play that way - John Campbell, Alex Francis MacKay, David Green-
berg, to mention just a few. 
David and Harvey have got the most fluid wrists I've ever seen, 
and in spite of his huge hands, John Campbell is almost delicate in the 
way he handles the bow. I haven't seen Alex Francis play (maybe Toby 
can tell us about that), but judging from the broad variations in sound 
that he is able to draw from the instrument, I'd have to guess that it's 
similar to the others. 

I don't play with
>my hand that way most of the time, but it did help to learn the movement
>needed.

Ah, we differ a bit there - for me adopting that bow hold was an 
end in itself. I made a point of learning it after getting some good 
advice, and seeing it used so effectively by many CB fiddlers. What I've 
found is that it really does make it easier to do the type of bowing 
called for in CB fiddling, with good deal less wear and tear on a number 
of joints that remind me in no uncertain terms when I batter them too 
much. 
BTW Jeri, are you in the New England area? (I'm in CT.) 

Wendy
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Re: [scots-l] Birlin'

[Jeri Corlew]

On Sat, 13 Jan 2001 09:53:47 -0800, you wrote:

>Jeri Corlew wrote:

>> I've heard Irish fiddlers bounce bows for what I call a triplet, but this
>> is extremely difficult to control.
>
>   Like that ornament that Kevin Burke does all the time? That's kind a
>strange one :-) Some of the most wicked bow ornaments I've ever heard
>come from Tommy Peoples. Donegal music in general fascinates me.
>Probably the only region of Irish music that I like as much as Scottish
>traditional music. 

As a matter of fact, it was Kevin Burke I was thinking of.  I'd just
started learning fiddle and I went to a Bothy Band concert and couldn't
believe what he seemed to be doing.  
>
>   Are you thinking of that spicato bow stroke, where the bow sort of
>bounces off the top of the string? The mechanics of that are actually
>different. Natalie MacMaster likes that ornament. 

Perhaps.  When it comes to proper names of things, I'm mostly clueless.  I
believe the violinists mainly use the frog end of the bow for that?
> 
>> I've tried for a long time to get triplets down.  More knowledgable people
>> than I told me the move was accomplished primarily with the wrist.
>> Practicing the up-down-up or down-up-down using the wrist and keeping the
>> arm as immobile as possible helped.  Naturally, you have to move your arm
>> when playing a tune, but this excercise got me to relax my wrist.  I've
>> made progress - every now and then I can hit a triplet correctly.
>
>   How much are you using your fingers? Most of a cut comes from having a
>loose wrist and fingers with a relatively stationary upper arm.

I was mostly joking about the "every now and then" bit, but I'm a long way
from having mastered the technique.  I figure if it feels right, I simply
need more practice.  This may sound weird, but I found it helped me to turn
my hand so the movement was more up and down than sideways.  (I noticed
Harvey Tolman plays like that, and decided to try it.)  I don't play with
my hand that way most of the time, but it did help to learn the movement
needed.

The way I do it, it's mostly a hand/wrist movement, sort of like sketching.

Jeri
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Re: [scots-l] Birlin'

[Derek Hoy]

Different styles do these differently- basically wee bowed triplets on the one 
note.
Some folks like them nice and neat- 3 clear notes.  As Toby mentioned, Tommy 
Peoples is famous for his- they're like electrical crackles.  He has a 
particular technique, which looks like he is flicking the pinkie of his bow 
hand, but I think this is just something he puts in for effect when folks are 
watching :)  The sound is more to do with having a tight bow and using more 
pressure than most players.  But he's spent a lifetime perfecting it.
The old Shetland players had more of a 'crunch'- you couldn't really hear a 
triplet at all.
Scottish players generally like to get them nice and crisp, so you hardly hear 
the notes.  It's the rhythm that's important.

It's one of these things that's hard to learn when you just play/think of it 
as 3 bits.  It needs to become one movement.

Derek
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Re: [scots-l] Birlin'

[Jack Campin]

> I've heard Irish fiddlers bounce bows for what I call a triplet, but this
> is extremely difficult to control.  I've heard classical violinists playing
> traditional music do a form of it as well - lifting the bow after each
> short stroke.  This sounds exactly like a classical violinist playing
> traditional tunes.  There's probably a fancy Italian name for the
> technique.

Spiccato?


: They're basically trying to get a sound like a birl on the pipes. My
: wife, or one of the other pipers can explain exactly how the birls work.

Something like {dGAG}A or {AGAG}A - the idea is that the low G on the
pipes is the loudest and the most dissonant against the drones, so this
ornament is the most emphatic attack possible, giving the effect of a
drumstroke.

===  ===


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Re: [scots-l] Birlin'

[Toby Rider]

Jeri Corlew wrote:
> 



> I've heard Irish fiddlers bounce bows for what I call a triplet, but this
> is extremely difficult to control.

Like that ornament that Kevin Burke does all the time? That's kind a
strange one :-) Some of the most wicked bow ornaments I've ever heard
come from Tommy Peoples. Donegal music in general fascinates me.
Probably the only region of Irish music that I like as much as Scottish
traditional music. 

  I've heard classical violinists playing
> traditional music do a form of it as well - lifting the bow after each
> short stroke.  This sounds exactly like a classical violinist playing
> traditional tunes.  There's probably a fancy Italian name for the
> technique.

Are you thinking of that spicato bow stroke, where the bow sort of
bounces off the top of the string? The mechanics of that are actually
different. Natalie MacMaster likes that ornament. 
 
> I've tried for a long time to get triplets down.  More knowledgable people
> than I told me the move was accomplished primarily with the wrist.
> Practicing the up-down-up or down-up-down using the wrist and keeping the
> arm as immobile as possible helped.  Naturally, you have to move your arm
> when playing a tune, but this excercise got me to relax my wrist.  I've
> made progress - every now and then I can hit a triplet correctly.

How much are you using your fingers? Most of a cut comes from having a
loose wrist and fingers with a relatively stationary upper arm.


Toby
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Re: [scots-l] Birlin'

[Jeri Corlew]

On Fri, 12 Jan 2001 11:56:46 +, David Kilpatrick wrote:

>on 12/1/2001 2:40 am, Keith W Dunn at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
>> Is anyone on the list familiar with a fiddle ornament called a "birlin'
>> "?

>I'm not a fiddler at all but I have repaired fiddles, and of course, you
>mess around with them when doing this. As a result (despite the complex
>replies given about up and down strokes and using the heel etc) I just
>thought you let the bow bounce on the string during the stroke for three
>rapid 'burst' notes, more like a single note broken up. 

I've heard Irish fiddlers bounce bows for what I call a triplet, but this
is extremely difficult to control.  I've heard classical violinists playing
traditional music do a form of it as well - lifting the bow after each
short stroke.  This sounds exactly like a classical violinist playing
traditional tunes.  There's probably a fancy Italian name for the
technique.

I've tried for a long time to get triplets down.  More knowledgable people
than I told me the move was accomplished primarily with the wrist.
Practicing the up-down-up or down-up-down using the wrist and keeping the
arm as immobile as possible helped.  Naturally, you have to move your arm
when playing a tune, but this excercise got me to relax my wrist.  I've
made progress - every now and then I can hit a triplet correctly.

Jeri, who hopes a triplet and a birl/birlin is actually the same thing, or
I'm going to feel really dumb.
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Re: [scots-l] Birlin'

[Toby Rider]

Wendy Galovich wrote:
> 
> At 09:40 PM 1/11/2001 -0500, Keith W. Dunn wrote:
> >Is anyone on the list familiar with a fiddle ornament called a "birlin'
> >"?
> >I read a short synopsis of how it's done in the book "Caledonian
> >Companion" by Alasdair Hardie but it was only a short explanation.  It's
> >used in the tune "James Hardie" by J. Scott Skinner.  To me, it always
> >seems to be easier to pick things like this up while being taught in
> >person, however, all I have is the book.  If anyone could explain in
> >detail just how this ornament is performed, maybe I could get the hang of
> >it.


They're basically trying to get a sound like a birl on the pipes. My
wife, or one of the other pipers can explain exactly how the birls work.
I take a much more organic approach. I hear something I like, so then I
keep experimenting until I get a sound just like it :-)

Toby
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Re: [scots-l] Birlin'

[David Kilpatrick]

on 12/1/2001 2:40 am, Keith W Dunn at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> Is anyone on the list familiar with a fiddle ornament called a "birlin'
> "?
> I read a short synopsis of how it's done in the book "Caledonian
> Companion" by Alasdair Hardie but it was only a short explanation.  It's
> used in the tune "James Hardie" by J. Scott Skinner.  To me, it always
> seems to be easier to pick things like this up while being taught in
> person, however, all I have is the book.  If anyone could explain in
> detail just how this ornament is performed, maybe I could get the hang of
> it.  

I'm not a fiddler at all but I have repaired fiddles, and of course, you
mess around with them when doing this. As a result (despite the complex
replies given about up and down strokes and using the heel etc) I just
thought you let the bow bounce on the string during the stroke for three
rapid 'burst' notes, more like a single note broken up. That's how I was
able to produce what I call a birl, which on the guitar we have to play
using two or three fingers in a very rapid triplet movement. A sort of
rythmic thrum on the note, like a 'crushed' note but on one tone. But
obviously this is quite wrong, and letting the bow do this neat little
bouncing strum on the string is not correct fiddletechnik.
DK

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Re: [scots-l] Birlin'

[Wendy Galovich]

At 09:40 PM 1/11/2001 -0500, Keith W. Dunn wrote:
>Is anyone on the list familiar with a fiddle ornament called a "birlin'
>"?
>I read a short synopsis of how it's done in the book "Caledonian
>Companion" by Alasdair Hardie but it was only a short explanation.  It's
>used in the tune "James Hardie" by J. Scott Skinner.  To me, it always
>seems to be easier to pick things like this up while being taught in
>person, however, all I have is the book.  If anyone could explain in
>detail just how this ornament is performed, maybe I could get the hang of
>it.  
>I've been searching for quiet a while for a way to produce what I think
>this ornament is supposed to sound like.  The book suggests playing it
>near the tip of the bow with a quick down-up-down bow with a slightly
>tightened forearm.  Does this sound familiar to anyone?  Does anyone do
>this differently?

It's similar to a cut in Cape Breton fiddling, but the timing 
and accent is different. I think Alasdair Fraser's recording, The 
Driven Bow, has some good representations of the Northeastern Scot-
tish approach described in the Hardie book. 
Playing it at the tip of the bow and the slightly tightened 
forearm is vastly different from what I strive for in Cape Breton 
fiddling though. I'd use the center of the bow, or close to it, and 
strive to keep the whole bowing arm and wrist as loose as relaxed 
as possible, and try to generate the down-up-down motion of the bow 
with the wrist and fingers. For the effect I'm after - the three 
notes ringing clearly even at speed - relaxation seems to be the 
key. I find it also helps to bring out that effect if I keep the 
downbow moving throughout the cut. If you stop the downbow or even 
just slow it down too much, it's much more likely to crunch the 
notes. 

>I also wonder if anyone has ever compiled a list of ornaments used in
>scottish fiddling.  And if so...descriptions and directions as to how
>they are performed.

The best compilation I know of is in Kate Dunlay and David Greenberg's 
book, Traditional Celtic Violin Music of Cape Breton, aka The DunGreen 
Collection. 

Wendy
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[scots-l] Birlin'

[Keith W Dunn]

Is anyone on the list familiar with a fiddle ornament called a "birlin'
"?
I read a short synopsis of how it's done in the book "Caledonian
Companion" by Alasdair Hardie but it was only a short explanation.  It's
used in the tune "James Hardie" by J. Scott Skinner.  To me, it always
seems to be easier to pick things like this up while being taught in
person, however, all I have is the book.  If anyone could explain in
detail just how this ornament is performed, maybe I could get the hang of
it.  
I've been searching for quiet a while for a way to produce what I think
this ornament is supposed to sound like.  The book suggests playing it
near the tip of the bow with a quick down-up-down bow with a slightly
tightened forearm.  Does this sound familiar to anyone?  Does anyone do
this differently?

I also wonder if anyone has ever compiled a list of ornaments used in
scottish fiddling.  And if so...descriptions and directions as to how
they are performed.

Keith Dunn
Marietta, Ga.


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