Re: ShopTalk: Getting rid of some stuff

[Bernie Baymiller]

Tom,

Geez, sorry to hear you have those health problems. I haven’t been able to play 
for a year and a half with the “back/spine thing.” Thirteen years of transplant 
drugs got me forty pounds in the gut and a nasty case of neuropathy and blood 
clots in my right leg. Am getting a shot in the spine next week to see if that 
will help the lower back. Had a left knee replacement 8 years ago, so that leg 
is OK. Two shoulder surgeries held up OK. So, I can still make clubs if I take 
my Tylenol. But, since I’m not up at the range anymore, my clubmaking is almost 
only for the neighbors...and teaching a 70-something year old friend. Got him 
from a 17 handicap to a 7. He’s killing a 47½” driver...260+ yards. You might 
try that teaching stuff...it’s kinda fun. 

Bernie
bl...@att.net

From: Tom Flanagan 
Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2015 3:54 PM
To: Shop 
Subject: ShopTalk: Getting rid of some stuff

Guess its time to give it up. Just out of the hospital - sepsis plus spinal 
stenosis. So, I have a few things left to sell (sold my loft and lie machine - 
sorry.) 

Golfsmith SW scale,  practically new in original box
Kaufman Freq meter


Shaft clamp (fast clamp for gripping - modified - had to replace the top rubber 
piece with a home-made rubber piece but no problems.)

Kennedy head pusher - or shaft puller if you like

Dick spine finder

"Crowbar" head pusher (I used that more than the Kennedy).

There may be more but I'd have to go into the garage to check. Bum back makes 
it tough 

I have no clue what price to ask for this stuff. But I do know that buyer pays 
shipping from CA 

TFlan

Re: ShopTalk: Smaller size driver head

[Bernie Baymiller]

Leo,

Bang Golf lists several from 360-430cc...Bangenstein, Bangster, Mellow Yellow 
and a few more I don’t remember. The Bangster is a good hitting head. And you 
can buy them through John with a shaft that will make it a great driver. 
Diamond Tour has a bunch of closeout SMT heads, like the Nemesis which is 405 
cc. Goggle up a lot of golf component resellers and check on their sale 
products. There seem to be quite a few resellers with less-than-460cc heads. 

Bernie
bl...@att.net

From: Leo Noordhuizen 
Sent: Friday, May 23, 2014 2:55 PM
To: ShopTalk 
Subject: ShopTalk: Smaller size driver head

I have a friend who gets 'unwell' from looking at the huge driverheads which 
are sold nowadays and he asked me whether I could find a good driverhead with a 
smaller size. 
I would be quite happy if some of you could point me to a supplier of those. I 
assume they are still being made ?

Thanks in advance,

Leo Noordhizen - The Netherlands

Re: ShopTalk: Another Ping reshaft question

[Bernie Baymiller]

Don,

I’ve made some shims cutting pieces out of beer cans with a scissors and 
wrapping around the shaft. Sand lightly and epoxy both sides. The very thin 
aluminum can metal can even be pounded thinner if need be.

Bernie
bl...@att.net

From: Don M 
Sent: Tuesday, May 20, 2014 2:22 PM
To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com 
Subject: ShopTalk: Another Ping reshaft question

I am fixing some Ping Eye2+ irons. Someone reshafted them with late model Ping 
CFS steel shafts, and the heads are loose. I pulled one for inspection and 
cleaned it up. The fit is super loose, more so than a typical Ping. It is still 
tapered, it has not been reamed out to parallel. But I think maybe the person 
who did it was too aggressive with cleaning out the hosels and enlarged them. 
To illustrate, I cannot tap or hammer the shaft so it stays inside the hosel. 
The hosel is too big for that. 

I'm looking for advice, particularly a method of shimming. There is no ferrule, 
keep that in mind. NOTE: Down at the tip, there does NOT seem to be any wiggle 
room. Therefore a typical brass shim is not going to fit, I don't think. Maybe 
I'm wrong about that. Solutions?

Would it help to dimple the shaft? It probably would help it stay in place for 
the assembling, but I'm not sure if it would help beef up the mechanical joint 
in any significant way.


-Don M

Re: ShopTalk: Driver Loft Question for Seniors

[Bernie Baymiller]

Yeah, that's my kind of swing speed these days. And I find another factor 
for

me to consider besides loft and angle of attack...the head's center of
gravity and maybe roll. I've found I need at least a 10.5° loft in a
Bang-O-Matic 460cc (193 grams) and I still hit it a bit low. With a Diamond
Tour DTG 190 head (191 grams) almost the same shape without the
chrome...kind of like the old Integra Super 450...I need at least a 9° to
keep it down using the same shaft as the one on the BOM. Then there's the 
tee

height...if I catch the ball above center of the face with the BOM,
trajectory is pretty good...more loft with the face roll.  With the DTG 190, 
I better hit the ball near

center of the face or it flies too high.

In the last few years, I've built a lot of long drivers for the seniors
here on the Tellico Village courses, ranging from a 6'5" ex-fighter pilot 
well over 100 mph
down to 5' ladies in the 60 mph speed range and I always go with them to the 
range to see how they
swing and what they get out of the head they are playing. For example, if 
they don't mind
the head's price and like the unique aesthetics, the BOM has a very large 
choice of lofts.  But, especially for

the player who wants to try a longer driver and not spend a lot for it, the
$30 DTG 190 head feels solid, sounds good and hits the ball almost as far as 
the

BOM at 47½" club length...best value I've found all year.

Bernie
bl...@att.net


-Original Message- 
From: j...@clubmaker-online.com

Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2012 11:17 AM
To: shoptalk@mail.msen.com
Subject: ShopTalk: Driver Loft Question for Seniors

I'd say that the majority of email I get from customers comes from
older guys with slower/average swingspeed (say 80-90 mph). Most
complain that they hit the ball too high and the ball "drops from the
sky". In order to attempt to get the ball flight down,  many are
playing very low lofted  drivers (8.5-9.5) with high kick point
shafts and they are looking for a shaft that will get launch/spin
down. Some get ticked when I won't sell them a shaft as it probably
won't do them any good.

I don't think they're hitting the ball too high but hitting down on
the ball with a negative angle of attack, adding way too much spin so
they're just hitting soft pop-ups.

I found a chart from Tom Wishon that shows 4 different clubhead speed
examples (75/90/105/120) and at each clubhead speed the player with
the negative angle of attack needs a much higher "probable driver
loft" than the player with level or +5 deg. upward angle of attack.

For example:
75 mph clubhead speed

-5 down
probable driver loft 23 deg. (for max. carry)

level
probable driver loft 19 deg. (for max. carry)

+5 up
probable driver loft 15 deg. (for max. carry)

What I'm taking from this is that my senior customers buying low
lofted drivers because they think they hit the ball too high (really
adding too much spin) are going in the wrong direction, they'd be
better off (though they won't believe it) with a very high lofted
driver. Do I have this right??




--



Thanks!
John Muir
shoptalk

skype: jhmuir
AIM: golfcas...@mac.com
810.923.7396







--
Shoptalk ** Sponsored by the new Aldila Voodoo.
Learn more at http://aldilavoodoo.com/ 


--
Shoptalk ** Sponsored by the new Aldila Voodoo.
Learn more at http://aldilavoodoo.com/

Re: ShopTalk: Ping Ball Distance Rating

[Bernie Baymiller]

When my dad was the Director of Golf research at Spalding in Chicopee during 
the late 1930s, they did a lot of “distance” testing of golf balls...and you’re 
right, the 100 compression Dot went farther no matter who hit it, including the 
ladies and longest hitter of the day...a pro named Jimmy Thompson. I have a 
circle graph made using data from Edgerton’s ultra high speed photos which 
shows his velocity and acceleration.(I guess somebody could compute approximate 
distance from that.) Dad said he could hit the ball about 290 yards. Bobby 
Jones was about 270-280 yards. (I have a graph with his velocity and 
acceleration, too, and his velocity was a bit less than Thompson.) 

Frankly, I don’t care much for the 3-ball suggestion. I guess the USGA could 
require everyone to go back to “classic clubs” like a driver no longer than 43” 
with a steel shaft and persimmon driver head, when playing the “classic 
courses.” Yeah, right. To increase distance for the amateurs, maybe they could 
allow the smaller English-size golf ball again...I could get an extra 10 yards 
out of that, which was especially nice in the winter. For me, when I was 
younger, it played just like an American-size ball in the summertime...never 
had to adjust my club distances for the cold. Uh huh.

Yes, I like to watch today’s better conditioned pros bomb the ball off the tee. 
I enjoy the comparison with the average players. I wouldn’t want to see the 
pros forced to play a ball which won’t go as far as the one I play. And, it 
takes a better swing to keep a longer drive in play...a poor swing with a 
longer ball flight is going to put the ball in more trouble. A lot of pros 
today are hitting less than driver off the tee on many holes for that 
reason...their 3W or hybrid has the same margin of error as the “classic” 
driver. If they can bomb today’s driver and ball over the trees, or curve the 
shot around a corner on a longer hole to have a short iron in...hey, that’s 
just good golf.

Of course, there’s been more talk about shortening the course for amateurs and 
seniors lately than lengthening them for pros...our gold tees are for pro or 
top amateur tourneys, blue tees are for the younger male player, white tees for 
50-plus ages and orange for all the really old guys (age plus handicap index = 
90). They say our seniors playing from white tees make our courses about equal 
to an 8100 yard golf course for today’s pros. Moving the tees up for average 
players is easy enough...the tees are already there, just move up the tee 
markers...don’t need a longer ball. 

Bernie
bl...@att.net



From: Tom Flanagan 
Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2011 12:59 PM
To: shoptalk 
Subject: RE: ShopTalk: Ping Ball Distance Rating

Remember when golf balls were sold by "compression number?" 80, 90 and 100? 
What's the difference from that to what Solheim's proposing? Way back then, an 
80 compression ball was variously described as "a cold weather ball, a ladies 
ball, or an old man's ball." 100's were for hard hitters or hot weather. 90's 
were for "the average" golfer, whatever that meant.  

A few years ago some pro did well with a Noodle "Lady" ball - super soft, or so 
it was assumed. Then there was the Precept Senior, the Top Flite soft ball, and 
others. Even the vaunted Titleist Pro V series are "soft." There's Srixon. 
There are at least three different flavors of Bridgestone - 5, 6, 7. 

Nicklaus proposed years ago that golf balls should be made to limit distance. 
Others have agreed. I think of way back in the dark ages of golf - Bobby Jones, 
Snead, Hogan, et al. They were hitting it 300 yards using the balls of the 20's 
and '30's. Its all about talent folks. 

As to re-learning how far a gold, silver or bronze ball goes off my clubface, 
isn't that already a question? I've advocated for years the addition of loft 
measurements on irons - my 27 degree club goes just as far as your 5-iron. I 
sure am not opposed to a standard way of measuring golf ball distance - but 
isn't that in some sense, what USGA does now vis a vis "conforming and 
non-conforming" golf balls? 

What did "100" compression mean anyway. I recall two studies. One from 
Australia, one from (I believe) from Ohio State University. The results from 
testing 100, 90 and 80 compression balls was that regardless of clubhead speed, 
the 100 compression ball traveled farther than the 90, and the 90 farther than 
the 80. The problem for "Joe Golfer" with the 100 compression balls was the 
hard feel - remember the Top Flite "Top Rock?" 

So sure, a really soft ball and a really high clubhead speed will likely show a 
reduction of distance, but how to explain the Noodle? 

TFlan


> Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2011 11:48:01 -0500
> From: dtutel...@optonline.net
> Subject: Re: ShopTalk: Ping Ball Distance Rating
> To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com; shoptalk@mail.msen.com
> 
> I agree, John.
> This is very interesting.
> 
> John Solheim, like his father, is an engineer. That means he is a 
> problem sol

Re: ShopTalk: Traverse Hi-COR + Eagle + Hole-In-One

[Bernie Baymiller]

Don,

SK Fiber near Huntsville, AL sells the Lite Revolution shafts to resellers like 
John, but their manufacturing facility for the PEs and LRs (and maybe others) 
is in Korea and was recently flooded. I tried to order some PE-A and PE-Rs from 
Charlie last week and he didn’t have any of the wood shafts in stock and didn’t 
know when he would get any of them. I didn’t ask about the Lite Revolutions. 

I’ve never used the LR II, only the LR I.

Bernie
bl...@charter.net 



From: Don M 
Sent: Friday, August 26, 2011 8:51 AM
To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com 
Subject: Re: ShopTalk: Traverse Hi-COR + Eagle + Hole-In-One

  Do they still make the Lite Rev?  Who sells it? 

  -Don M

  --- On Fri, 8/26/11, Bernie Baymiller  wrote:


From: Bernie Baymiller 
Subject: Re: ShopTalk: Traverse Hi-COR + Eagle + Hole-In-One
To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com
Date: Friday, August 26, 2011, 7:26 AM


George,

Usually, an SKF Lite Revolution Stiff weighs about 63 grams. But, it’s 
a 48” shaft, so trim usually gets it down to 58-60 grams installed. The Lite 
Rev shaft is very similar to the Pure Energy, but firmer with a slightly lower 
trajectory and tighter dispersion. It’s probably the best “golf course” shaft 
SKF has for strong, long hitters, IMO. SKF just came out with a new superlight 
shaft at 49-50 grams which they call the Superfly. I got an A and an R to try 
and the profile and feel of the shaft in general is “wimpy.” The UL-45’s 
profile is stiffer farther down the shaft and has a much more “solid” feel to 
me at impact.

Bernie
bl...@charter.net 

From: GEORGE HUSON 
Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2011 10:23 PM
To: wlmailhtml:/mc/compose?to=ShopTalk@mail.msen.com 
Subject: Re: ShopTalk: Traverse Hi-COR + Eagle + Hole-In-One

  I agree, I have lost 3 stiff in the last 2 months. I have not 
tried the skf lite as a replacement. what is the weight on that shaft Bernie?
  George Hson
  ByGeorge Custom Clubs

  --- On Thu, 8/25/11, Bernie Baymiller  wrote:


From: Bernie Baymiller 
Subject: Re: ShopTalk: Traverse Hi-COR + Eagle + Hole-In-One
To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com
Date: Thursday, August 25, 2011, 8:03 AM


Well, one thing I have learned about the UL-45 (or Integra 
45)...don’t use it on a long driver for guys 6’ 4” with 100 mph+ swingspeeds. I 
put a stiff on 47½” drivers for two “age 50-something” players who fell in that 
size category and both did super with the club, but broke the shaft right at 
the hosel top within two months. I replaced them with an SKF Lite Rev at the 
same NF4 deflection numbers and, even with the bit of added weight, the results 
were equally good. No problems with the Lite Revs. For lower speeds and older 
seniors, the 45s work very well...I’ve had my R on a BOM and hitting it well 
since they came out. Oh yeah, except for the retired lady who broke one in 
about 10 swings bouncing it off a hard mat into a 1” rubber tee.

Bernie

From: j...@clubmaker-online.com 
Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2011 8:13 AM
To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com 
Subject: Re: ShopTalk: Traverse Hi-COR + Eagle + Hole-In-One

When I read the subject line I thought you had both an Eagle 
and hole in one with your Traverse driver. I was going to hire you as celebrity 
spokesman!
I've had great feedback from my customers this year and 
appreciate yours.
I'm pretty sure that DTG 45 shaft is simply the Integra 45 (or 
50) rebranded. The Integra 45 or 50 (and DTG45) are great shafts, amazing at 
only $29. The pearl white color is sharp, if that's your thing. Info here 
http://www.clubmaker-online.com/integra.soolong.175.html
John

  Traverse Hi-COR Driver

  Well I finally have a Traverse Hi-COR review for the driver 
head I got from John.
  I mated it up to Bernie's recommendation, a DTG FGS Ultralite 
45 Wood (49 grams).
  Installed a 1 gram and 5 gram weight to counteract my slice 
tendency.  Head 12* loft.
  I know 1 + 5 grams will not counteract a slice, but its what 
every salesman would say.
  Grip is a discontinued 48 gram Lamkin Dual Density green 0.58 
RND.  45 inch long.
  Total weigth = 285 grams.  C3.4 with grip on / D2.0 grip off. 
 Club 5" frequency R-flex.

  All I can say is WOW what a PERFORMER for MY game.  
Definitely likes to hit straight.
  I hit very few slices with it but I did with other drivers.  
Didn't laser off any landing spots.
  It's nice to be 2nd longest off the tee on occasion than to 
be dead last for 3 years.

  I coul

Re: ShopTalk: Traverse Hi-COR + Eagle + Hole-In-One + sub 50 clamping pressure

[Bernie Baymiller]

David,

With my small customer numbers here in Tellico Village, I usually just install 
grips manually for single clubs like drivers. If I’m doing a set of irons, I’ll 
blow them on, lightly clamped in my rubber shaft holder with head against the 
wall. No pressure to speak of. All my broken superlight shafts have been at the 
top of the hosel.

Bernie
bl...@charter.net 

From: vectorgo...@aol.com 
Sent: Friday, August 26, 2011 1:03 AM
To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com 
Subject: Re: ShopTalk: Traverse Hi-COR + Eagle + Hole-In-One + sub 50 clamping 
pressure

Snip;
Greetings,
One thing all of you guys need to be mindful of on the sub 50 shafts is your 
clamping pressure when installing the grips.

Not just us "Pro's" who do the work, but also you consumers who are making a 
purchase on one of these need to make sure your club maker is aware, because 
many are not.

They are extremely thin walled and though you may not hear or feel it crack, 
you may very well have created a hair line crack in the grip clamp which can 
migrate up or down the shaft and cause it to break on the 1st swing or the 
200th swing.

I have a pneumatic clamp with a foot pedal and I usually run about 40 psi for 
steel or graphite.
If I'm doing heavy production on steel I will turn it up to about 60 psi so I 
don't have to worry about slippage, but any time I have a sub 50 graphite I 
turn it down to about 20 psi and ease on the foot pedal.
That's 1/2 my normal clamping pressure and applied carefully!

You want just the bare minimum pressure to not have the shaft slip.
You almost want it to slip and need to have a co worker hold the head, but not 
quite.

If your rubber clamp is a bit slick because some gripping solvent has found 
it's way on to it (maybe from the last time you removed a grip with a needle) 
then wipe down your clamp with some acetone so it has maximum tack.
 
I learned this the hard way, I use a lot of the Fierce Full Force shafts which 
are 49 grams, and I would say of the 1st 20 I built with my normal 40 psi about 
1/2 of them broke, since I've backed off the clamping pressure I haven't had 
any break except in cases of them falling off a cart or getting slammed in a 
trunk or some other crazy thing that is beyond anticipation.

Of course there will always be the player that his off mats and bangs it off 
the mat behind the ball, this will result in breakage just above the hosel with 
any weight shaft and should not be warranted any more than wrapping it around a 
tree should be.
But!! if hitting fat off mats results in breakage say in the middle of the 
shaft, that got started with your clamping pressure. 

If you use a vise you can just not tighten it as much, if you have one of those 
clamps that are a 1/4 turn handle (either clamped or not) I'm not sure what you 
would do as I don't know if those are adjustable in any way.
If they are not adjustable to lower the clamping pressure, I suppose you could 
do that by clamping the shaft closer to the tip where the shaft diameter 
lessens to provide a less snug fit.

Also if your ferrule is overly snug, rather than pounding it on, warm it some 
first, then ease it on.
David

In a message dated 8/25/2011 7:24:19 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, 
geohu...@flash.net writes:
I agree, I have lost 3 stiff in the last 2 months. I have not tried the 
skf lite as a replacement. what is the weight on that shaft Bernie?
George Hson
    ByGeorge Custom Clubs

--- On Thu, 8/25/11, Bernie Baymiller  wrote:


  From: Bernie Baymiller 
  Subject: Re: ShopTalk: Traverse Hi-COR + Eagle + Hole-In-One
  To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com
  Date: Thursday, August 25, 2011, 8:03 AM


  Well, one thing I have learned about the UL-45 (or Integra 
45)...don’t use it on a long driver for guys 6’ 4” with 100 mph+ swingspeeds. I 
put a stiff on 47½” drivers for two “age 50-something” players who fell in that 
size category and both did super with the club, but broke the shaft right at 
the hosel top within two months. I replaced them with an SKF Lite Rev at the 
same NF4 deflection numbers and, even with the bit of added weight, the results 
were equally good. No problems with the Lite Revs. For lower speeds and older 
seniors, the 45s work very well...I’ve had my R on a BOM and hitting it well 
since they came out. Oh yeah, except for the retired lady who broke one in 
about 10 swings bouncing it off a hard mat into a 1” rubber tee.

  Bernie 

Re: ShopTalk: Traverse Hi-COR + Eagle + Hole-In-One

[Bernie Baymiller]

George,

Usually, an SKF Lite Revolution Stiff weighs about 63 grams. But, it’s a 48” 
shaft, so trim usually gets it down to 58-60 grams installed. The Lite Rev 
shaft is very similar to the Pure Energy, but firmer with a slightly lower 
trajectory and tighter dispersion. It’s probably the best “golf course” shaft 
SKF has for strong, long hitters, IMO. SKF just came out with a new superlight 
shaft at 49-50 grams which they call the Superfly. I got an A and an R to try 
and the profile and feel of the shaft in general is “wimpy.” The UL-45’s 
profile is stiffer farther down the shaft and has a much more “solid” feel to 
me at impact.

Bernie
bl...@charter.net 

From: GEORGE HUSON 
Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2011 10:23 PM
To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com 
Subject: Re: ShopTalk: Traverse Hi-COR + Eagle + Hole-In-One

  I agree, I have lost 3 stiff in the last 2 months. I have not tried the 
skf lite as a replacement. what is the weight on that shaft Bernie?
  George Hson
  ByGeorge Custom Clubs

  --- On Thu, 8/25/11, Bernie Baymiller  wrote:


From: Bernie Baymiller 
Subject: Re: ShopTalk: Traverse Hi-COR + Eagle + Hole-In-One
To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com
Date: Thursday, August 25, 2011, 8:03 AM


Well, one thing I have learned about the UL-45 (or Integra 45)...don’t 
use it on a long driver for guys 6’ 4” with 100 mph+ swingspeeds. I put a stiff 
on 47½” drivers for two “age 50-something” players who fell in that size 
category and both did super with the club, but broke the shaft right at the 
hosel top within two months. I replaced them with an SKF Lite Rev at the same 
NF4 deflection numbers and, even with the bit of added weight, the results were 
equally good. No problems with the Lite Revs. For lower speeds and older 
seniors, the 45s work very well...I’ve had my R on a BOM and hitting it well 
since they came out. Oh yeah, except for the retired lady who broke one in 
about 10 swings bouncing it off a hard mat into a 1” rubber tee.

Bernie

From: j...@clubmaker-online.com 
Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2011 8:13 AM
To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com 
Subject: Re: ShopTalk: Traverse Hi-COR + Eagle + Hole-In-One

When I read the subject line I thought you had both an Eagle and hole 
in one with your Traverse driver. I was going to hire you as celebrity 
spokesman!
I've had great feedback from my customers this year and appreciate 
yours.
I'm pretty sure that DTG 45 shaft is simply the Integra 45 (or 50) 
rebranded. The Integra 45 or 50 (and DTG45) are great shafts, amazing at only 
$29. The pearl white color is sharp, if that's your thing. Info here 
http://www.clubmaker-online.com/integra.soolong.175.html
John

  Traverse Hi-COR Driver

  Well I finally have a Traverse Hi-COR review for the driver head I 
got from John.
  I mated it up to Bernie's recommendation, a DTG FGS Ultralite 45 Wood 
(49 grams).
  Installed a 1 gram and 5 gram weight to counteract my slice tendency. 
 Head 12* loft.
  I know 1 + 5 grams will not counteract a slice, but its what every 
salesman would say.
  Grip is a discontinued 48 gram Lamkin Dual Density green 0.58 RND.  
45 inch long.
  Total weigth = 285 grams.  C3.4 with grip on / D2.0 grip off.  Club 
5" frequency R-flex.

  All I can say is WOW what a PERFORMER for MY game.  Definitely likes 
to hit straight.
  I hit very few slices with it but I did with other drivers.  Didn't 
laser off any landing spots.
  It's nice to be 2nd longest off the tee on occasion than to be dead 
last for 3 years.

  I couldn't be more happy with its overall performance so thanks John 
and Bernie!
  Traverse Hi-COR head feels very solid at impact and when I connect 
its real long.
  At least real long for my swing.  It will definitely be staying in 
the bag long term.
  Thanks again to Bernie and John.

  Eagle and Hole-In-One

  On another note, I entered a 4-person scramble with my 2 sons and we 
were -10 after 17.
  Duane drove the 370 yard par 4 (wind assisted) while Dwight sunk the 
50 foot eagle putt.
  Ball found lower tier of the green otherwise it might have snuggled 
right up close to the pin.
  Got into the clubhouse with a -12 round for the day.  Good for a 
3-Way Tie for Low Gross.
  Then we found out the prize table was based on random draw and Duane 
got to table last.
  I then realized I love scramble format but hate to win and not get 
early choice at prize table. 

  Duane won closest to the pin and a game earlier he got his first 
hole-in-one so a great week.  


-- 





Thanks,
John Muir

skype: jhmuir
AIM: golfcas...@mac.com
810.923.7396
http://clubmaker-online.com
http://gripscience.com
  

Re: ShopTalk: Traverse Hi-COR + Eagle + Hole-In-One

[Bernie Baymiller]

Re: ShopTalk: Traverse Hi-COR + Eagle + Hole-In-OneWell, one thing I have 
learned about the UL-45 (or Integra 45)...don’t use it on a long driver for 
guys 6’ 4” with 100 mph+ swingspeeds. I put a stiff on 47½” drivers for two 
“age 50-something” players who fell in that size category and both did super 
with the club, but broke the shaft right at the hosel top within two months. I 
replaced them with an SKF Lite Rev at the same NF4 deflection numbers and, even 
with the bit of added weight, the results were equally good. No problems with 
the Lite Revs. For lower speeds and older seniors, the 45s work very 
well...I’ve had my R on a BOM and hitting it well since they came out. Oh yeah, 
except for the retired lady who broke one in about 10 swings bouncing it off a 
hard mat into a 1” rubber tee.

Bernie

From: j...@clubmaker-online.com 
Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2011 8:13 AM
To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com 
Subject: Re: ShopTalk: Traverse Hi-COR + Eagle + Hole-In-One

When I read the subject line I thought you had both an Eagle and hole in one 
with your Traverse driver. I was going to hire you as celebrity spokesman!
I've had great feedback from my customers this year and appreciate yours.
I'm pretty sure that DTG 45 shaft is simply the Integra 45 (or 50) rebranded. 
The Integra 45 or 50 (and DTG45) are great shafts, amazing at only $29. The 
pearl white color is sharp, if that's your thing. Info here 
http://www.clubmaker-online.com/integra.soolong.175.html
John

  Traverse Hi-COR Driver

  Well I finally have a Traverse Hi-COR review for the driver head I got from 
John.
  I mated it up to Bernie's recommendation, a DTG FGS Ultralite 45 Wood (49 
grams).
  Installed a 1 gram and 5 gram weight to counteract my slice tendency.  Head 
12* loft.
  I know 1 + 5 grams will not counteract a slice, but its what every salesman 
would say.
  Grip is a discontinued 48 gram Lamkin Dual Density green 0.58 RND.  45 inch 
long.
  Total weigth = 285 grams.  C3.4 with grip on / D2.0 grip off.  Club 5" 
frequency R-flex.

  All I can say is WOW what a PERFORMER for MY game.  Definitely likes to hit 
straight.
  I hit very few slices with it but I did with other drivers.  Didn't laser off 
any landing spots.
  It's nice to be 2nd longest off the tee on occasion than to be dead last for 
3 years.

  I couldn't be more happy with its overall performance so thanks John and 
Bernie!
  Traverse Hi-COR head feels very solid at impact and when I connect its real 
long.
  At least real long for my swing.  It will definitely be staying in the bag 
long term.
  Thanks again to Bernie and John.

  Eagle and Hole-In-One

  On another note, I entered a 4-person scramble with my 2 sons and we were -10 
after 17.
  Duane drove the 370 yard par 4 (wind assisted) while Dwight sunk the 50 foot 
eagle putt.
  Ball found lower tier of the green otherwise it might have snuggled right up 
close to the pin.
  Got into the clubhouse with a -12 round for the day.  Good for a 3-Way Tie 
for Low Gross.
  Then we found out the prize table was based on random draw and Duane got to 
table last.
  I then realized I love scramble format but hate to win and not get early 
choice at prize table. 

  Duane won closest to the pin and a game earlier he got his first hole-in-one 
so a great week.  


-- 





Thanks,
John Muir

skype: jhmuir
AIM: golfcas...@mac.com
810.923.7396
http://clubmaker-online.com
http://gripscience.com
http://clubmaker.mobi
http://thedriverstudio.com

Golf equipment updates at http://twitter.com/golfcast

Facebook-- 
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Clubmaker-Online/181867993392?v=wall&mid=20b6914G6046d421G0G66

sponsored by the new Aldila RIP BETA
http://www.clubmaker-online.com/products/aldila.rip.html

Re: ShopTalk: lightweight heads

[Bernie Baymiller]

Jeremy,

Lots of ‘em. Diamond Tour DTG 190 (about 189-193), Integra, Diamond Tour Golf 
and others with the 175, Bang-O-Matic 460cc at 193-195 to mention a few. If you 
go with the DTG 190, it tends to hit the ball on a higher trajectory, but is a 
really good head. (I usually hit a 10°, but a 9° DTG 190 hits the ball about 
the same as most 10°s.) The BOMs tend to be a bit lower for me, so I go with 
10.5 version and probably would do better with an 11°.

Bernie
bl...@charter.net 

From: Jeremy Ingle 
Sent: Friday, May 06, 2011 2:35 PM
To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com 
Subject: ShopTalk: lightweight heads

Greetings  all
Are there any conforming lightweight heads out there as John says he  didn't 
have enough demand for  a conforming version of the Traverse

-- 
Jeremy F Ingle

613-590-1503 X227




Internal Virus Database is out of date.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 
Version: 9.0.894 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3596 - Release Date: 04/25/11 
02:34:00

Re: ShopTalk: Head weight and distance

[Bernie Baymiller]

Al,

I wouldn’t be surprised that the SKF PE-A has been changed somewhat in the last 
year. I used to get the A at 58 grams, the last ones I got were 62 grams. Of 
course, these are 48” shafts and trim to 47” usually takes off about 5 grams. 
The best shaft for longer hitters that I’ve used is the SKF Lite Revolution, 
but it’s about 65 grams at 48” raw length...very good at 46” club length. 
Charlie Blume is the guy to call at SKF.

The UL-45s are from Diamond Tour Golf and usually about 48 grams (the ones I’ve 
used in both R and A and S were all 48 grams...probably same lot). The Rs and 
As I used were not very far apart measuring load on my NF4. The shaft seems 
pretty stiff through the mid-section and tapers quickly toward the tip. I guess 
this kind of profile helps the strength of a 48 gram shaft somewhat. You can 
swing hard with this shaft, but don’t let your bag fall on the cart path or 
bang them down on a hard mat...I’ve had two UL-45s break, one on a mat in less 
than 10 swings and one by whiplash in a fallen bag. The player was hitting his 
driver with the whiplashed shaft on the range, swung at the ball and the shaft 
broke right below the grip. (Have never seen that before.)The club head and 
shaft bounced off his back and flew behind him. The guys who were near him on 
the range all gave him a cheer for such a “mighty” swing. On the other hand, I 
have a couple 6’ 4”+ guys hitting the stiffs with no problems so far. 

Bernie
bl...@charter.net 


From: Allen Humphrey 
Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2011 4:41 AM
To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com 
Subject: Re: ShopTalk: Head weight and distance

am working with a Maltby CT 250 FC 12* at about 196g.on a UST MP5 S at 
45.5". Longer for me creates too high an MOI or so it seemsThe shaft is a 
soft S...and profiles in the R range..Have not tried an SK F PE-A at a 
longer length. Being butt stiff, tip softand in the high 50g'smaybe 
interesting. What is the UL 45 and where to buy ?

thanks

Al Humphrey




From: "vectorgo...@aol.com" 
To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com
Sent: Wed, May 4, 2011 6:34:42 PM
Subject: Re: ShopTalk: Head weight and distance


Dave, when we were getting those results was before the LDA or even the USGA 
had a length restriction and Gerry was playing a 50" driver at that time.
David

In a message dated 5/4/2011 8:42:21 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, 
dtutel...@optonline.net writes:
  At 11:59 PM 5/3/2011, vectorgo...@aol.com wrote:

Hi Bernie and all,
There is a trade off between speed and mass,
the lighter head increases speed, but reduces mass.
In working with arguably the Jack Nicklaus of long drive Gerry James, we 
worked with heads from about 179 grams to about 207 grams and got the best Ball 
Speed with a head at 193 grams, now his swing speed at the time was about 138 
mph, I do not know how this would fall off or increase as swing speed 
decreases, but it seems to be consistent with your results so maybe it doesn't 
fall off with swing speed, maybe that's the ticket.
Perhaps Dave T knows the math, I don't, I only know the results.
David 
 
 
In a message dated 5/3/2011 7:59:40 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, 
bl...@charter.net writes:

  George,



  I’m using a UL-45 R on a 10.5° BOM right now at 47½†club length 
and getting good results. A DTG 190 9°on an SKF PE A also produced good 
results with a slightly lower trajectory. I don’t like the 175 gram heads 
much, though. They don’t have as much “pop†for me as the DTG 190. For me, 
at a 47½†club length, I still think a 190-195 gram head on a low 50s gram 
shaft delivers the best distance. My BOM weighs 193 grams. At my age, I can’t 
seem to generate any more speed with the lighter head...though I haven’t 
really checked the speed mechanically. I have better feel for the club head 
position during the swing with slightly more weight (around 290-295 grams) and 
a slightly higher swingweight (about D5-D8).



  Bernie

  bl...@charter.net 

  Since you asked... :)

  There are plenty of ways to approach it. Here are a few:

  (1) JUST THE MATH
  The equation for ball speed is well known. Assuming a modern driver (that is, 
low loft and .83 COR) with a square center hit, it is:

  Vb = Vh * 1.83 / (1 + m/M)

  Where:
   Vb = ball speed
   Vh = clubhead speed
   m  = mass of ball, 46g
   M  = mass of clubhead. For purposes of this calculation, we'll use 
190g

  A 5% variation of clubhead mass gives less than 1% variation in ball speed.
  A 5% variation of clubhead speed gives 5% variation in ball speed.

  That tells me that reducing the clubhead mass by 5% better give more than a 
1% increase in clubhead speed (more like 1.1%) or it's a net loss.

  (2) AN OLD EXPERIMENT
  Hey guys, you don't really think this is a new question, do you? In fact, it 
is precisely the ques

Re: ShopTalk: Head weight and distance

[Bernie Baymiller]

Dave,

Yes, I think you’re correct at the end of your post. When both the 175 and 190 
clubs are the same length, it seems to become a release timing thing for me. 
When I first tried a 48” driver in the mid 1990s, It took me 2 hours on the 
range to learn the timing (going from D0 to E6 with a Chicago 966SD at 195 
grams and a Mars CVP-150 at 74 grams plus 43 gram Winn). Then, it took me about 
2 months of playing to get consistent with it...and learn the swingweight was 
too much for me to handle walking 18 holes on a summer day. A year later, with 
a Super 450 at 195 grams on a 57 Aldila Longwood 50/50 at 48” club length, I 
got the S/W down to E0 and couldn’t miss for 18 holes. In 1999 at age 65, I 
played the most perfect round of my life with that driver...hit every fairway 
(driving 250-270 yards) and every green in regulation from the regular men’s 
tees on our Toqua course, made a few putts and was 4-under for the day. I had 
several 65s in earlier years on shorter courses, but no rounds as easy as that 
one. That was the only time ever that I can remember hitting every fairway and 
green in regulation. (Today, at age 76 with a cold wind blowing, rough greens 
and very little growth on our Bermuda fairways, I couldn’t even break 90...had 
a 91. But it was lots of enjoyable exercise, only a few 3-putts and not too 
many four letter words. )

I wouldn’t be surprised if I worked as hard to learn the timing with the 175 
head on a 48 gram shaft that I could do just as well as with the 190. But, most 
of the guys for whom I build long drivers, seem to prefer and do better with 
the 190 than the 175 when they demo them side by side.

Bernie
bl...@charter.net 

From: Dave Tutelman 
Sent: Wednesday, May 04, 2011 11:41 AM
To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com 
Subject: ShopTalk: Head weight and distance

At 11:59 PM 5/3/2011, vectorgo...@aol.com wrote:

  Hi Bernie and all,
  There is a trade off between speed and mass,
  the lighter head increases speed, but reduces mass.
  In working with arguably the Jack Nicklaus of long drive Gerry James, we 
worked with heads from about 179 grams to about 207 grams and got the best Ball 
Speed with a head at 193 grams, now his swing speed at the time was about 138 
mph, I do not know how this would fall off or increase as swing speed 
decreases, but it seems to be consistent with your results so maybe it doesn't 
fall off with swing speed, maybe that's the ticket.
  Perhaps Dave T knows the math, I don't, I only know the results.
  David 
   
   
  In a message dated 5/3/2011 7:59:40 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, 
bl...@charter.net writes:

George,


  
I’m using a UL-45 R on a 10.5° BOM right now at 47½” club length 
and getting good results. A DTG 190 9°on an SKF PE A also produced good 
results with a slightly lower trajectory. I don’t like the 175 gram heads 
much, though. They don’t have as much “pop” for me as the DTG 190. For 
me, at a 47½” club length, I still think a 190-195 gram head on a low 50s 
gram shaft delivers the best distance. My BOM weighs 193 grams. At my age, I 
can’t seem to generate any more speed with the lighter head...though I 
haven’t really checked the speed mechanically. I have better feel for the 
club head position during the swing with slightly more weight (around 290-295 
grams) and a slightly higher swingweight (about D5-D8).


  
Bernie

bl...@charter.net 

Since you asked... :)

There are plenty of ways to approach it. Here are a few:

(1) JUST THE MATH
The equation for ball speed is well known. Assuming a modern driver (that is, 
low loft and .83 COR) with a square center hit, it is:

Vb = Vh * 1.83 / (1 + m/M)

Where:
Vb = ball speed
Vh = clubhead speed
m  = mass of ball, 46g
M  = mass of clubhead. For purposes of this calculation, we'll use 190g

A 5% variation of clubhead mass gives less than 1% variation in ball speed.
A 5% variation of clubhead speed gives 5% variation in ball speed.

That tells me that reducing the clubhead mass by 5% better give more than a 1% 
increase in clubhead speed (more like 1.1%) or it's a net loss.

(2) AN OLD EXPERIMENT
Hey guys, you don't really think this is a new question, do you? In fact, it is 
precisely the question that got me thinking about golf math back in the 1980s. 
And it had already been answered at least once back then.

Look at Cochran & Stobbs, chapter 32. Specifically, look at table 32:3. It has 
the answer laid out in black and white -- and unfortunately ounces, not grams. 
What it says is there is a broad "peak" of ball speed, between 170g and 230g, 
where the carry distance varies only about a yard. The maximum looks to occur 
at a little over 200g.

This data really just measured clubhead speed, then cranked that back into the 
above formula to get ball speed and then distance. The reason is that golfers 
tended to find it difficult to make good strikes using a club very different 
from what they are used t

Re: ShopTalk: This is a mystery to me . . .

[Bernie Baymiller]

George, 

Yeah C9, I figured that...mine came out the same thing. 

And, yes, most women seem to do very well with longer drivers. Ten years ago, I 
had a 72 year old lady with a beautiful swing, but no wrist release to speak 
of, hitting the ball 150 yards with a 45” men’s driver. Every ball she hit was 
a perfect trajectory and had a nice little draw. She tried my 48” BOM on an SKF 
PE A and with one swing adapted to the length and was hitting the ball 185 
yards and just like the others. She went to Florida the next week and won a 
tournament there. My concern then, with swingweights up around D8, was making 
it around 18 holes without losing control. But she did OK. 

Another 60-something 5’ 1” lady was hitting a 48” driver with an original 
Integra Super 450 and SKF PE A about 225 yards and winning senior long drive 
events here before she moved back to Iowa. Last summer she came for a visit and 
wanted a new driver, so I made her a DTG 190 on a UL-45 A. She e-mailed me 
after she got home and said she was at least 230 yards with it. 

In my experience over the last 12 years, the senior women pick up at least 
10-15 yards for every extra inch they can handle, while most men seem to get 
8-10 yards per extra inch...probably because most senior women are somewhat 
“arm swingers.” And, I think that’s why they can adapt to the longer length 
easier than senior men, who generally have more wrist release.

But, that’s just my observations.

Bernie
bl...@charter.net 

From: GEORGE HUSON 
Sent: Wednesday, May 04, 2011 11:09 AM
To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com 
Subject: Re: ShopTalk: This is a mystery to me . . .

  I mistyprd length should be 47.5" = C-9 SW

  George Huson
  ByGeorge Custom Clubs

  --- On Wed, 5/4/11, GEORGE HUSON  wrote:


From: GEORGE HUSON 
Subject: Re: ShopTalk: This is a mystery to me . . .
To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com
Date: Wednesday, May 4, 2011, 8:57 AM


  I am using the Integra 175 with the Integra UL-45 & the Winn 
ultra lite soft grip. Also at 45.5 SW runs C-9 with a couple of 178's running  
D-0.
  I have sold to 6'7" 25 year old & 67 year old 5'4" women.  
  Everybody seems to gain yards, and hit at least as straight as 
their old driver.  The women have gained the most as much as 50 yards for some. 
(Yes they hit the 47" shaft, even the 5'4")
  The big thing I find is they can hit the ball as hard on the 18th 
hole as the 1st hole. They now have same head in red, & white, plus the black, 
and a white shaft in all the flexes.

  Just building a red one with white shaft now for a 58 year young 
lady that plays golf once or twice a month. Gained 40 years with my test ladies 
with black head, will be great to see if the red is as hot.

  George Huson
  ByGeorge Custom Clubs

  --- On Tue, 5/3/11, Bernie Baymiller  wrote:


From: Bernie Baymiller 
Subject: Re: ShopTalk: This is a mystery to me . . .
To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com
Date: Tuesday, May 3, 2011, 9:59 PM


George,

I heard the UL-45 is the same shaft as the 45s from Integra 
with a different paint job. Maybe a slight modification with the 175 gram 
driver head (I have the Integra 175 and used DTG version on a customer’s 
club.). I like the shafts...they hit the ball very straight, though a bit high 
for my swing. I’m using a UL-45 R on a 10.5° BOM right now at 47½” club length 
and getting good results. A DTG 190 9°on an SKF PE A also produced good results 
with a slightly lower trajectory. I don’t like the 175 gram heads much, though. 
They don’t have as much “pop” for me as the DTG 190. For me, at a 47½” club 
length, I still think a 190-195 gram head on a low 50s gram shaft delivers the 
best distance. My BOM weighs 193 grams. At my age, I can’t seem to generate any 
more speed with the lighter head...though I haven’t really checked the speed 
mechanically. I have better feel for the club head position during the swing 
with slightly more weight (around 290-295 grams) and a slightly higher 
swingweight (about D5-D8).

Bernie
bl...@charter.net 

From: GEORGE HUSON 
Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 10:31 PM
To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com 
Subject: Re: ShopTalk: This is a mystery to me . . .

  Hi Bernie,
  Have you tried any of the 45 gram shafts from Integra? 
They are not very expensive & I have had very good luck with them, except 2 out 
of 4 of their stiffs I get are still a little soft, more high R then S.

  George Huson
  ByGeorge Custom Clubs

  --- On Mon, 5/2/11, Bernie Baymiller  
wrote:


From: Bernie Baymiller 
   

Re: ShopTalk: This is a mystery to me . . .

[Bernie Baymiller]

George,

I heard the UL-45 is the same shaft as the 45s from Integra with a different 
paint job. Maybe a slight modification with the 175 gram driver head (I have 
the Integra 175 and used DTG version on a customer’s club.). I like the 
shafts...they hit the ball very straight, though a bit high for my swing. I’m 
using a UL-45 R on a 10.5° BOM right now at 47½” club length and getting good 
results. A DTG 190 9°on an SKF PE A also produced good results with a slightly 
lower trajectory. I don’t like the 175 gram heads much, though. They don’t have 
as much “pop” for me as the DTG 190. For me, at a 47½” club length, I still 
think a 190-195 gram head on a low 50s gram shaft delivers the best distance. 
My BOM weighs 193 grams. At my age, I can’t seem to generate any more speed 
with the lighter head...though I haven’t really checked the speed mechanically. 
I have better feel for the club head position during the swing with slightly 
more weight (around 290-295 grams) and a slightly higher swingweight (about 
D5-D8).

Bernie
bl...@charter.net 

From: GEORGE HUSON 
Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 10:31 PM
To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com 
Subject: Re: ShopTalk: This is a mystery to me . . .

  Hi Bernie,
  Have you tried any of the 45 gram shafts from Integra? They are not very 
expensive & I have had very good luck with them, except 2 out of 4 of their 
stiffs I get are still a little soft, more high R then S.

  George Huson
  ByGeorge Custom Clubs

  --- On Mon, 5/2/11, Bernie Baymiller  wrote:


From: Bernie Baymiller 
Subject: Re: ShopTalk: This is a mystery to me . . .
To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com
Date: Monday, May 2, 2011, 8:08 PM


Tom,

Hey, I had the same reaction to a couple of SKFiber’s new SuperFly 
50-gram shafts. I ordered an R and my NF4 indicated it was right on...or at 
least in the neighborhood. But when I put it on one of the new 175 gram driver 
heads, a hit felt way too soft...even with that light a head. The whole shaft 
vibrated like a snake on impact and distance was terrible. The same flex 
reading on a DTG UL-45 gives me an almost stiff feeling...the tip just snaps 
through the ball and shaft is solid as a rock. The only thing different about 
them is the profile...the SuperFly is a slender kind of “swinger” shaft and the 
UL-45 is a “fat-body hitter” shaft. Any similarity there?

Bernie
bl...@charter.net 

From: Tom Flanagan 
Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 4:57 PM
To: shoptalk 
Subject: ShopTalk: This is a mystery to me . . .

I built a set of Callaway Diablo uh, clones (?) Thursday. Shafts Aldila 
Velocitor, 4 - SW. I weight matched the heads 7 grams apart, as I usually do, 
and freq matched the shafts with heads shimmed on, at 38" 5 iron. I was looking 
for something like what the guy had, 288 cpm 5 iron. So, I got the shafts 
matched 4 cpm apart using the 288 cpm 5 I to build from up and down. These are 
filament would shafts so no real spine. But I placed the logos at 3:00, where 
the shafts seemed best on the meter. Double checked freqs, weights, lengths, 
and stuck them together. O'size grips lightened the SW to about C9 +/-I checked 
the freqs again gripped. 284 for the 5I, and so on. Perfect, another quality 
build by yours truly except, oops! 

The customer called me Saturday, mucho pissed off. "I can't hit these 
Flanster, they're so goddam stiff I can hardly bend them." What the hell? So I 
took them back today, popped the grips, pulled the shafts and re-checked. Sure 
enough, freqs were right on. I did the old "tried and true" stiffness test. Put 
the club - 8 iron cuz I hadn't pulled it apart yet, toe on the ground, push on 
the butt. The damn shaft hardly budged! I shimmed the 288 cpm 5I together and 
tried that one - hardly any give at all - at 288 cpm! 

So, I have a set of PC Xtra Lites. Also filament wound. I installed 
them at the very same readings on the freq meter - 288 cpm 5I. Did the tried 
and true "push down test." Ahhh, nice and soft. So, the whole set of PC Xtra 
Lites freq the same as the Aldilas. In all the years I've been doing this I've 
never seen this. I can understand a couple cpm's difference, but what amounts 
to X to soft R with the same freqs, etc. makes no sense to me at all. So. . . . 

WHY? 

Befuddled in the Land of Fruits and Nuts. 

TFlan



Internal Virus Database is out of date.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 
Version: 9.0.894 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3596 - Release Date: 
04/25/11 02:34:00
 





Internal Virus Database is out of date.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 
Version: 9.0.894 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3596 - Release Date: 04/25/11 
02:34:00

Re: ShopTalk: This is a mystery to me . . .

[Bernie Baymiller]

Tom,

Hey, I had the same reaction to a couple of SKFiber’s new SuperFly 50-gram 
shafts. I ordered an R and my NF4 indicated it was right on...or at least in 
the neighborhood. But when I put it on one of the new 175 gram driver heads, a 
hit felt way too soft...even with that light a head. The whole shaft vibrated 
like a snake on impact and distance was terrible. The same flex reading on a 
DTG UL-45 gives me an almost stiff feeling...the tip just snaps through the 
ball and shaft is solid as a rock. The only thing different about them is the 
profile...the SuperFly is a slender kind of “swinger” shaft and the UL-45 is a 
“fat-body hitter” shaft. Any similarity there?

Bernie
bl...@charter.net 

From: Tom Flanagan 
Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 4:57 PM
To: shoptalk 
Subject: ShopTalk: This is a mystery to me . . .

I built a set of Callaway Diablo uh, clones (?) Thursday. Shafts Aldila 
Velocitor, 4 - SW. I weight matched the heads 7 grams apart, as I usually do, 
and freq matched the shafts with heads shimmed on, at 38" 5 iron. I was looking 
for something like what the guy had, 288 cpm 5 iron. So, I got the shafts 
matched 4 cpm apart using the 288 cpm 5 I to build from up and down. These are 
filament would shafts so no real spine. But I placed the logos at 3:00, where 
the shafts seemed best on the meter. Double checked freqs, weights, lengths, 
and stuck them together. O'size grips lightened the SW to about C9 +/-I checked 
the freqs again gripped. 284 for the 5I, and so on. Perfect, another quality 
build by yours truly except, oops! 

The customer called me Saturday, mucho pissed off. "I can't hit these Flanster, 
they're so goddam stiff I can hardly bend them." What the hell? So I took them 
back today, popped the grips, pulled the shafts and re-checked. Sure enough, 
freqs were right on. I did the old "tried and true" stiffness test. Put the 
club - 8 iron cuz I hadn't pulled it apart yet, toe on the ground, push on the 
butt. The damn shaft hardly budged! I shimmed the 288 cpm 5I together and tried 
that one - hardly any give at all - at 288 cpm! 

So, I have a set of PC Xtra Lites. Also filament wound. I installed them at the 
very same readings on the freq meter - 288 cpm 5I. Did the tried and true "push 
down test." Ahhh, nice and soft. So, the whole set of PC Xtra Lites freq the 
same as the Aldilas. In all the years I've been doing this I've never seen 
this. I can understand a couple cpm's difference, but what amounts to X to soft 
R with the same freqs, etc. makes no sense to me at all. So. . . . 

WHY? 

Befuddled in the Land of Fruits and Nuts. 

TFlan




Internal Virus Database is out of date.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 
Version: 9.0.894 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3596 - Release Date: 04/25/11 
02:34:00

Re: ShopTalk: New article[s] on my web site

[Bernie Baymiller]

Dave,

Geez, what caused that wierd character stuff. Would it be some kind of 
encoding choice?


I looked at my Mail options and saw it was set up for Western European (ISO) 
whatever that means. So, I changed it to Western European (Windows) whatever 
that means. Are you still getting the crazy characters?


Bernie
bl...@charter.net




-Original Message- 
From: Dave Tutelman

Sent: Monday, February 28, 2011 6:14 PM
To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com
Cc: spinetalkersfo...@yahoogroups.com ; NeuFinder Forum
Subject: Re: ShopTalk: New article[s] on my web site

Hi Bernie.
Your post has some very strange characters in it?
I occasionally see that, but I don't know what
causes it. Seems to be directly related to some
webmail client. Anyway, enough about form; back to matters of substance.

At 02:48 PM 2/28/2011, Bernie Baymiller wrote:

Isn’t it easier to find a spine by manually
FLOing and marking the shaft, then using a CD
with cross-hairs and slightly enlarged center
hole to mark the other 3 points, since you say
the spine is always 90° from the NBP and I
should find FLO at all 4 points? At least,
I’ve found this to generally be true. Since I
have an NF4, I then can slip the shaft into the
V-notch on the center bearing arm to measure the
two planes and get my DD flex measurement to see which is which .


Absolutely correct.

And many who can do FLO have a frequency meter
along with the clamp and tip weight, so they can
use that to see which is which.


Now, once I’ve found the true NBP and spine
locations by manually FLOing the shaft, could I
use my NF2 with a similarly notched center
bearing arm to get reasonably accurate flex
measurement? I realize the measurement is unique
to my NF2, but will it give me a number that’s
good enough for shaft matching and my own shaft records?


Well, sorta'. If you're willing to accept the errors due to:
* Residual bend.
* Shaft taper.
* Steps in the shaft.

All of these affect the stiffness reading. Even
if you are measuring stiffness against your own
private standard (and, with an NF2, you would
be), these can still introduce errors. That is,
shafts with identical stiffness could give
different readings due to these geometrical conditions.

Cheers!
DaveT

--
Shoptalk ** Sponsored by the new Aldila Voodoo.
Learn more at http://aldilavoodoo.com/






No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 9.0.872 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3466 - Release Date: 02/24/11 
14:34:00 


--
Shoptalk ** Sponsored by the new Aldila Voodoo.
Learn more at http://aldilavoodoo.com/

Re: ShopTalk: New article[s] on my web site

[Bernie Baymiller]

Dave,

Isn’t it easier to find a spine by manually FLOing and marking the shaft, then 
using a CD with cross-hairs and slightly enlarged center hole to mark the other 
3 points, since you say the spine is always 90° from the NBP and I should find 
FLO at all 4 points? At least, I’ve found this to generally be true. Since I 
have an NF4, I then can slip the shaft into the V-notch on the center bearing 
arm to measure the two planes and get my DD flex measurement to see which is 
which .

Now, once I’ve found the true NBP and spine locations by manually FLOing the 
shaft, could I use my NF2 with a similarly notched center bearing arm to get 
reasonably accurate flex measurement? I realize the measurement is unique to my 
NF2, but will it give me a number that’s good enough for shaft matching and my 
own shaft records?

Bernie
bl...@charter.net 


From: Dave Tutelman 
Sent: Monday, February 07, 2011 12:24 PM
To: spinetalkersfo...@yahoogroups.com ; ShopTalk@mail.msen.com ; NeuFinder 
Forum 
Subject: ShopTalk: New article[s] on my web site

In the past month or so, I have reorganized my web site somewhat and added 
several articles. The one I added today is of interest to these forums.

Finding Spines with a Non-Differential Instrument
http://www.tutelman.com/golf/shafts/ddspine.php 

Turns out you can do differential deflection TO FIND SPINES accurately, even if 
you have an instrument not designed for differential deflection. Here's how to 
do it if you have something like a Golfmechanix Auditor or Apache Multi-Match 
or an old NeuFinder 2. The method involves a spreadsheet, which can be 
downloaded from the site.

Note that this won't help if you're finding flex for trimming the shaft, or if 
you're getting a flex profile. All the advantages of differential deflection 
still apply there, but this technique doesn't work. At least it works for 
spine-finding.

Also, I have gotten into the physics of the swing (until now, I've kept mostly 
to the club and maybe ball flight). You might be interested in some of my 
articles on that topic, which I have added to Rod White's excellent article on 
the physics of the golf swing.

Enjoy!
DaveT





No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 
Version: 9.0.872 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3416 - Release Date: 02/01/11 
02:34:00

Re: ShopTalk: Re: Intrega 175 with Integra 45 grain shaft

[Bernie Baymiller]

George,

Thanks for the “heads up.” I’ll have to try one.

Another very good ultralight combo with just a bit more heft is the DTG-190 (or 
a 193 gram BOM) with DT’s UL-45 R (or A for the ladies) and a normal 50 gram 
Winn. I use a Winn DSI std black or midsize blue/black...the latter looks very 
good with the U_-45 blue/grey graphics and Hireko blue ring wood ferrule. The R 
runs about 48 grams (used four of them so far, all were at 48 grams). S/W comes 
in about D2-D4 and total weight about 285-290 grams depending on grip used. One 
5’2” lady who is a pretty good senior player and has been playing a 47½” driver 
with SFK PE-A for some time, picked up almost 20 more yards with the DTG/UL-45A 
combo...up to about 225 yards. 

Though I haven’t measured the profile yet, the UL-45 “look” reminds me of the 
old Aldila Longwood 50/50 “wide-body” with a bit longer taper toward the 
tip...feels really solid and seems to hit the ball very straight with a 
slightly higher trajectory using a 10.5° head. The tip is a bit fragile hitting 
off mats...a woman with a “knee dip” in her downswing broke an A-flex off in 
six swings hitting from a rubber tee in a worn mat over concrete. No problems 
with normal tees for me and others so far.

Bernie
bl...@charter.net 

From: GEORGE HUSON 
Sent: Sunday, January 02, 2011 9:42 AM
To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com 
Subject: ShopTalk: Re: Intrega 175 with Integra 45 grain shaft


  Tried the new Integra 175 grain head with their 45 grain shaft,( R-239  
feq) used the new LW 25 grain Winn grip. SW came in at C-9 @ 47.4".
  This is a very hot comb, I have gained aver 20 yards, built one for a 69 
year old lady, she can swing the 47.3" without a problem and really hits it 
well. Not sure how much gain because it it cold & wet here (Texas). She is 
longer then her summer shots when she has lots of roll.
  Nice combo.

  George Huson
  ByGeorge Custom Clubs 





No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 
Version: 9.0.872 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3347 - Release Date: 12/29/10 
14:34:00
<>

Re: ShopTalk: Lynx irons

[Bernie Baymiller]

Roy,

Ha! Actually, too old. Anymore, I only remember things that I wouldn’t need to 
know anyway. 

Thanks for the info. I don’t think the pins in a couple of dad’s irons are down 
that far. He was a great 2-iron player...hit it acurately over 225 yards in his 
60s, even about 200 when he was my age (76). That’s the club head I do remember 
is pinned. Those old Bobby Jones Tournament Model irons (made about 1939, I 
think) were very much like today’s heads, forged stainless steel with a sole as 
wide as most of today’s blades, but with higher lofts and slightly larger faces 
on the mid and short irons. I could lay open the 9-iron and play it like a PW 
or SW. He left the dies open some when he made his set and the set I grew up 
hitting. 

Bernie
bl...@charter.net 


From: Roy Nix - AGCP Director 
Sent: Friday, October 29, 2010 9:14 PM
To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com 
Subject: Re: ShopTalk: Lynx irons

Bernie
You too young to think of it? - lol

It's been too long for me to remember details so I did some research for you. I 
found the information in Maltby's Blue book. 4th edition Pages 248 to 250. 

Drill with a 1/8th or 3/32 drill bit. Leave the pin a little long on both 
sides, lay it on the anvil of the vise and tap down with a ball peen hammer, 
file and sand smooth. Hosels were longer back then but the pictures show it at 
least an inch down from the top of the hosel. I would think between the epoxy 
and a pin that sucker is in there to stay for a while.

Roy
  - Original Message - 
  From: Bernie Baymiller 
  To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com 
  Sent: Friday, October 29, 2010 7:19 PM
  Subject: Re: ShopTalk: Lynx irons

  Thanks guys for your suggestions and Tom W for info on the Lynx clubs. 

  Geez, Roy, why didn’t I think of that. I still have a couple of dad’s old 
Spalding irons with pins in them over in the corner of my shop. I imagine that 
I wouldn’t even have to drill them out...the hosel bore at the top of the hosel 
must be over .400 and tapers down to .370. I put one head in my boring vise and 
a .375 drill cleaned the hosel out nicely toward the bottom, but I had to 
Dremel a bit of old epoxy out in the top half inch or so with a cutting bit I 
use for cleaning out stubborn pieces. A pin through the hosel and shaft just 
under (maybe 1/4”) under the widest part of the shaft (which is right at the 
top of the hosel) plus epoxy ought to do the job don’t you think? Would a 
finishing nail work for the pin?

  Bernie
  bl...@charter.net 





  From: Roy Nix - AGCP Director 
  Sent: Friday, October 29, 2010 3:35 PM
  To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com 
  Subject: Re: ShopTalk: Lynx irons

  Tom
  I guess I'm showing my age here, but can't he drill through the hosel with 
the shaft in and pin it like back in the day?

  Roy

  On 10/29/2010 10:06 AM, Tom Wishon wrote: 
BERNIE

 

If you are talking about a Lynx model from the 90s which had a very 
different type of shaft tip design that was very radically tapered, I remember 
this model from the days when I was with Golfsmith and the company bought Lynx. 
 In short, GS’s repair department inherited a nightmare of warranty repair jobs 
for this design because these shafts simply did not stay put in the heads.  

 

I recall that GS’s head repair technician, Bill Totten, did figure out a 
way to keep these shafts in those heads and since it has been so long, I simply 
don’t remember what he did.  So I would recommend you try to contact Bill 
Totten and ask him for help on this – probably through Jeff Sheets’ consulting 
company because Totten works for Jeff now since GS eliminated their in-house 
product development group a number of years ago.  

 

TOM 

 

From: owner-shopt...@mail.msen.com [mailto:owner-shopt...@mail.msen.com] On 
Behalf Of Tom Flanagan
Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2010 5:15 PM
To: shoptalk
Subject: RE: ShopTalk: Lynx irons

 

As I recall , the hosel insertion depth on those dogs was pretty shallow as 
well. I have a neighbor who played Lynx up until a year ago. I reshafted a 
couple of them, and re-epoxied at least one of them. I used JB Weld for the 
reglue. For the reshafts I just shimmed them with scraped and roughed aluminum 
soda cans and JB Weld. They held together long enough for him to get a 
different set of irons. 
 
TFlan
 




From: bl...@charter.net
To: shoptalk@mail.msen.com
Subject: ShopTalk: Lynx irons
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 16:54:57 -0400

An old guy (who else) has some Lynx irons which keep losing their heads and 
he asked me if there was any way of keeping them on over a long period of time. 
I pulled the 6-iron to see what the problem could be and immediately saw the 
steel shaft was unique...actually stepped up 2 steps from a .370 to the hosel 
top, then a steep taper to a .370 tip. It’s pretty obvious that the heads could 
sl

Re: ShopTalk: Lynx irons

[Bernie Baymiller]

Thanks guys for your suggestions and Tom W for info on the Lynx clubs. 

Geez, Roy, why didn’t I think of that. I still have a couple of dad’s old 
Spalding irons with pins in them over in the corner of my shop. I imagine that 
I wouldn’t even have to drill them out...the hosel bore at the top of the hosel 
must be over .400 and tapers down to .370. I put one head in my boring vise and 
a .375 drill cleaned the hosel out nicely toward the bottom, but I had to 
Dremel a bit of old epoxy out in the top half inch or so with a cutting bit I 
use for cleaning out stubborn pieces. A pin through the hosel and shaft just 
under (maybe 1/4”) under the widest part of the shaft (which is right at the 
top of the hosel) plus epoxy ought to do the job don’t you think? Would a 
finishing nail work for the pin?

Bernie
bl...@charter.net 





From: Roy Nix - AGCP Director 
Sent: Friday, October 29, 2010 3:35 PM
To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com 
Subject: Re: ShopTalk: Lynx irons

Tom
I guess I'm showing my age here, but can't he drill through the hosel with the 
shaft in and pin it like back in the day?

Roy

On 10/29/2010 10:06 AM, Tom Wishon wrote: 
  BERNIE

   

  If you are talking about a Lynx model from the 90s which had a very different 
type of shaft tip design that was very radically tapered, I remember this model 
from the days when I was with Golfsmith and the company bought Lynx.  In short, 
GS’s repair department inherited a nightmare of warranty repair jobs for this 
design because these shafts simply did not stay put in the heads.  

   

  I recall that GS’s head repair technician, Bill Totten, did figure out a way 
to keep these shafts in those heads and since it has been so long, I simply 
don’t remember what he did.  So I would recommend you try to contact Bill 
Totten and ask him for help on this – probably through Jeff Sheets’ consulting 
company because Totten works for Jeff now since GS eliminated their in-house 
product development group a number of years ago.  

   

  TOM 

   

  From: owner-shopt...@mail.msen.com [mailto:owner-shopt...@mail.msen.com] On 
Behalf Of Tom Flanagan
  Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2010 5:15 PM
  To: shoptalk
  Subject: RE: ShopTalk: Lynx irons

   

  As I recall , the hosel insertion depth on those dogs was pretty shallow as 
well. I have a neighbor who played Lynx up until a year ago. I reshafted a 
couple of them, and re-epoxied at least one of them. I used JB Weld for the 
reglue. For the reshafts I just shimmed them with scraped and roughed aluminum 
soda cans and JB Weld. They held together long enough for him to get a 
different set of irons. 
   
  TFlan
   


--

  From: bl...@charter.net
  To: shoptalk@mail.msen.com
  Subject: ShopTalk: Lynx irons
  Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 16:54:57 -0400

  An old guy (who else) has some Lynx irons which keep losing their heads and 
he asked me if there was any way of keeping them on over a long period of time. 
I pulled the 6-iron to see what the problem could be and immediately saw the 
steel shaft was unique...actually stepped up 2 steps from a .370 to the hosel 
top, then a steep taper to a .370 tip. It’s pretty obvious that the heads could 
slide off these shafts more easily than on a parallel tip shaft. 

   

  Is anyone familiar with this problem? Is there any solution that works...like 
an adapter for this hosel design which could accommodate a parallel tip .370 
shaft? I told him that I didn’t think it was worth doing, but I’d ask if anyone 
had any answers for this problem. Also, he lost the 7-iron head in a water 
hazard...if anyone has a Lynx 7-iron head and shaft let me know.

   

  Bernie Baymiller 


-- Shoptalk ** Sponsored by the new Aldila Voodoo. Learn more at 
http://aldilavoodoo.com/ 




No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 
Version: 9.0.864 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3222 - Release Date: 10/27/10 
02:34:00

ShopTalk: Lynx irons

[Bernie Baymiller]

An old guy (who else) has some Lynx irons which keep losing their heads and he 
asked me if there was any way of keeping them on over a long period of time. I 
pulled the 6-iron to see what the problem could be and immediately saw the 
steel shaft was unique...actually stepped up 2 steps from a .370 to the hosel 
top, then a steep taper to a .370 tip. It’s pretty obvious that the heads could 
slide off these shafts more easily than on a parallel tip shaft. 

Is anyone familiar with this problem? Is there any solution that works...like 
an adapter for this hosel design which could accommodate a parallel tip .370 
shaft? I told him that I didn’t think it was worth doing, but I’d ask if anyone 
had any answers for this problem. Also, he lost the 7-iron head in a water 
hazard...if anyone has a Lynx 7-iron head and shaft let me know.

Bernie Baymiller 

Re: ShopTalk: TFlan news?

[Bernie Baymiller]

Tom,

Sounds like you're doing great. But, curious about one thing...does the bovine 
valve require that you take anti-rejection drugs? Hopefully not.

Ready for a long driver yet? 

Bernie
bl...@charter.net 


From: Tom Flanagan 
Sent: Friday, October 15, 2010 6:17 PM
To: shoptalk 
Subject: RE: ShopTalk: TFlan news?


Well shoot guys, here's the latest; next Monday will be the 7 week anniversary 
of the surgery (and my birthday as well). I saw the thoracic surgeon yesterday, 
and a week ago. Last week he turned me loose behind the wheel of my car, a 
major event. Yesterday he said I should go out and hit some balls, which I did 
today - 20 8-irons, average  distance, 95 yds. Also a tube of 24 practice balls 
hit with a SW, 57 yds. The chest held together and only a small amount of pain. 
Putted and chipped for about an hour as well. 
 
The aortic valve stenosis was repaired with a bovine valve. A mechanical valve 
was not considered at all. I go for one more follow-up with the thoracic guy, 
then a visit with a cardiologist for a sonogram. Taking rat poison 
(coumadin/warfarin) for 1 1/2 months more and done with that. Same with 
metoprolol. Just a baby aspirin daily. 
 
So there it is. Feeling pretty good. A little tired but better every day. 
Thanks for all the good wishes. 
 
TFlan 
 
> Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2010 15:04:55 -0400
> From: dtutel...@optonline.net
> Subject: Re: ShopTalk: TFlan news?
> To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com
> 
> At 02:41 PM 10/15/2010, Doxey, Paul N wrote:
> >Has anyone heard from Tom since his heart surgery?
> >Hoping for the best...
> 
> Guys,
> This all played out on SpineTalk a week ago.
> 
> TFlan came through the operation fine and is recovering on schedule. 
> If he doesn't post a detailed update here soon, I'll repost what he 
> told SpineTalk.
> 
> Cheers!
> DaveT
> 
> --
> Shoptalk ** Sponsored by the new Aldila Voodoo.
> Learn more at http://aldilavoodoo.com/







No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 
Version: 9.0.862 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3197 - Release Date: 10/14/10 
14:34:00
<>

Re: ShopTalk: Is it quiet

[Bernie Baymiller]

Tom,

Good wishes and good surgery tomorrow. New valve ought to get you another 20 
yards.

Bernie
bl...@charter.net 




From: Tom Flanagan 
Sent: Sunday, August 29, 2010 8:18 PM
To: shoptalk 
Subject: RE: ShopTalk: Is it quiet


Well, this ought to get it going. 
 
About a month ago I passed out on the course. Severe dehydration, it was 
thought. Temps were really hot here in the CA Central Valley - the Tuesday 
before the "event" temp was 108 deg. I felt fine apres golf but on Wednesday I 
drank only a single bottle of H20, so the following day the reservoir was 
pretty much empty. Clunk! Out on the 4th green. 3 docs agreed I should see a 
cardiologist "just to be sure." So 2 weeks ago I endured a visit with a cardio 
guy, got a ultrasound test, EKG, etc., and was told an angiogram was necessary. 
Last Wednesday the angiogram showed a defective aortic valve. Oops. 
 
So at 6:00 a.m. tomorrow morning I head to the heart center for surgery to 
replace the valve. 
 
There, that should brighten everyone's day. 
 
TFlan
 


From: mapat...@cfl.rr.com
To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com
Subject: ShopTalk: Is it quiet
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2010 14:40:54 -0400


Or am I missing posts?













Internal Virus Database is out of date.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 
Version: 9.0.851 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3085 - Release Date: 08/21/10 
02:35:00

Re: ShopTalk: 1 1/2 HOURS OF PURE EDUCATION

[Bernie Baymiller]

Roy,

Max Knobel, John Dickson and my dad John Baymiller patented an MOI shaft 
matching machine in 1940 when dad was Director of Golf Research at Spalding in 
Chicopee, Massachusetts. (Patent #2,349,736). They called it the Wagglemeter. I 
didn't begin building clubs until 1993, so before then I always wondered why 
dad's set of Bobby Jones Tournament Model irons were so heavy. I believe that 
his and my irons (also BJTMs) were both MOI matched...wish I had those sets 
around to check. I replaced them with a set of Wilson Staff irons in 1966, but 
the Staff's never played as well for me as the old Bobby Jones set.

Bernie
bl...@charter.net 


From: Roy - AGCP 
Sent: Saturday, February 06, 2010 8:24 AM
To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com 
Subject: Re: ShopTalk: 1 1/2 HOURS OF PURE EDUCATION


Hey Dave
Yep I was in PGA School in 68 and was tinkering with rebuilding clubs in High 
School even. In the early 70s was Head Pro at a local course and the guy that 
owned the course also had an off course golf shop. The course was out a ways 
and it was hard to secure the pro shop from break-ins so he rented a place in 
town for his Pro Shop. We only kept a minimal number of golf balls, tees, 
gloves etc at the course and everything else was in town. We also built clubs 
and had our on personalized line with our name Stamped in the iron heads. Back 
then we had the PGA event The Southern Open in Columbus and we did work for the 
touring pros when the tournament was in town. 

Anyway a lot of the OEM reps back then were guys I played against in college 
and we were into all kinds of experimenting. One of them worked where either 
Tony Pena and Tommy Armour worked or there was two Reps for two companies and 
one with Pena and one with Armour. (sorry for the memory lapse, old age and it 
wasn't as big a deal back then as it is now). We played around with sets of all 
types. I had a lot of staff sets because very time someone want to experiment 
they came to me. One set was 1/4 inch digressions and 1/2 sw increments and 
aluminum shafts too. I guess because I played against them and they knew me and 
that I held several course records back then they thought I was a good little 
white mouse to experiment with. - lol

We tried stiff shafts for Seniors, 1/2 sw progressions etc. 

Still foggy on this but my recollection is that Tommy Armour way back in the 
30s thought MOI was the way to go but most didn't understand it back then and 
it didn't gain much favor. Pena was his protégé I believe and learned from him 
and so it went. The golf companies would build a lot of things back then and 
experiment but never developed anything for the public as far as I know. All of 
that was back in the late 1960s and it never occurred to me that someday...

I wish I had kept all of that stuff and my notes and all but when I got out of 
golf in the mid 70s it didn't seem important. Now I only have memories I can't 
recall most of the time. Fun times but I can't tell you for sure what worked 
and what didn't except I like the 1/2 SW digressions and continued to use it 
even when I got back in the business and before I every heard of MOI again. I'm 
not even sure the term MOI was mentioned back then, all I recall is 1/2 SW 
digressions.

Roy


  - Original Message - 
  From: Dave Tutelman 
  To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com 
  Sent: Friday, February 05, 2010 7:01 PM
  Subject: Re: ShopTalk: 1 1/2 HOURS OF PURE EDUCATION


  At 08:01 AM 2/5/2010, Roy - AGCP wrote:

I have been building progressive swing weight matches since the 1970s and 
used a swing weight scale to get 1/2 swing weight progressions as clubs get 
shorter.

  Wow, you got there before I did!

  I figured out in 1994 that this was the way to get an MOI match, and started 
experimenting then.

  I've refined the rules a little since then ( 
http://www.tutelman.com/golf/design/swingwt4.php?ref=#sw_scale). But a half 
swingweight point per club is still pretty darned good.


I find the SpeedMatch is a bit easier to nail it down more accurately than 
the sliding weight on the swingweight scale.

  Digital measurement of the timing.
  That's the ticket!
  For PRECISION anyway. Not necessarily accuracy.

  The MOI is a function of just the spring constant and the period. So the 
precision can be VERY good. The ACCURACY depends on the calibration of the 
spring constant as well as the period. I don't know how well GolfMechanix does 
that. If they have a calibration "club" of a known MOI and use that to 
calibrate the electronics, then it's taken care of. (For the distinction, see < 
http://www.tutelman.com/golf/measure/precision.php>.)

  And even if it's not, accuracy will not stand in the way of matching clubs to 
one another; that's a precision issue -- and the SpeedMatch has that covered. 
You only need accuracy to build to a specific number.

  Not the same at all for the older digital pendulum method. The very precise 
time measurement had to be combined with length (balance

Re: ShopTalk: Statement by Ping Chairman John Solheim

[Bernie Baymiller]

Speaking of creeks... A couple of players put their drives a few yards apart 
into a creek crossing the fairway near a clump of large trees. One player can 
take his ball back from where it entered the hazard to a point he can hit over 
the trees and on the green. The other player is in a position from which he 
cannot get over the trees when he goes back, so he has to punch a ball under 
the trees and short of the green. The "gentlemanly spirit" would suggest both 
players would have to punch their balls under the trees. Knowing his rules 
options gave one player a distinct advantage. Hasn't it always been considered 
that a smart player knows the rules and uses them to his best advantage?  

Speaking of clubs...Within the confines of the rules, everybody plays different 
clubs of different weight, makes, lengths, lofts, etc. Drivers, in particular, 
vary all over the lot. Doesn't the "gentlemanly spirit" suggest all drivers, in 
fact, all clubs should be built to the same specs? Seems to me that the more 
"ungentlemanly spirit" was that of the cheating accusation. I'm not 
disappointed in Phil a bit.

Bernie
bl...@charter.net 




From: Childers, Tedd A 
Sent: Tuesday, February 02, 2010 1:14 PM
To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com 
Subject: RE: ShopTalk: Statement by Ping Chairman John Solheim


Well, we all have our opinions, and I usually agree with Tom and Dave T., but 
this time I think they are dead wrong.  No one using these clubs is breaking 
any USGA rule, and there is no such thing as a "spirit" of a rule, especially 
in golf.  Case in point was Robert Allenby this week.  He hit a drive that 
clearly went into a lateral hazard, and in fact the TV commentators saw it go 
into the hazard.  However, the PGA Tour official ruled that since no spectators 
or players saw it go into the lateral hazard, Allenby would have to play it as 
a lost ball.  The "spirit" of the rule would have been to let assume that the 
ball was in the lateral hazard and drop where it entered, since everyone knew 
that is what happened, but the letter of the rule said he had to re-hit from 
the tee (lost ball).  Another example would be if two people got paired up on 
the first hole and both hit their drives right down the middle of the fairway, 
but just over a slight rise where they couldn't see their balls land.  When 
arriving at the balls, which were sitting 1" apart, both players realized they 
are playing the exact same ball (type and number) with no additional markings.  
The "spirit" of the rule would say that these balls aren't lost, but the letter 
of the rule says that they are, because the players cannot tell which ball is 
which...

Tedd



--
  From: owner-shopt...@mail.msen.com [mailto:owner-shopt...@mail.msen.com] On 
Behalf Of Tom Wishon
  Sent: Tuesday, February 02, 2010 12:55 PM
  To: 'ShopTalk@mail.msen.com'
  Subject: RE: ShopTalk: Statement by Ping Chairman John Solheim


  Can't resist a situation in which the USGA gets caught in a conundrum and 
people see a loophole through which they feel they can gain an advantage in a 
competitive environment.  Things like this tend to show some people's inner 
makeup in the face of ignoring what's right and just.  



  For the USGA, good for them that they are stuck in a hard place concerning 
their new scoreline rule being slightly compromised over a remnant left over 
from a lawsuit.  If any golf company makes or has made a club of 25* loft or 
higher with the same exact groove used in the old Eye2's, there is no question 
that groove would not be conforming under the new rule.  But simply because 
litigation that took place over 20 yrs ago which resulted in the USGA having to 
cave in to make concessions to Ping for something the USGA should never have 
pursued in the first place, here we are with a "legal groove" out on the PGA 
Tour that really should not be legal.  And likewise, thanks to our self 
absorbed me first society, here we are with a handful of players who see this 
as a way to climb into a loophole to try to gain some sort of advantage.  Had 
the USGA just sat down with the PGA Tour to lobby the tour to grow the rough 
longer as the better way to level the playing field among the straight hitters 
and the bomb and gougers rather than to establish a new scoreline rule, none of 
this would be happening.  



  For Ping, as many times as the USGA has tried to rain down on them over the 
years, one can say you can't blame them if they feel they want to just sit back 
and watch the USGA squirm over this.  But because Ping is an honorable and 
genuinely motivated golf company, they'll probably cave in a little to come up 
with some way to allow the USGA and PGA Tour to wipe the egg off their faces to 
bring integrity back to the game at its highest level and stop the carping out 
on the Tour about this matter.  



  The USGA could never establish a spin rate test or limit because spin r

Re: ShopTalk: removing masking tape

[Bernie Baymiller]

I cut about a 6" to 8" piece of butt off a old steel shaft with the grit blade 
on my radial arm saw, then cut about a 45° angle off one end of the piece, also 
with the grit blade. Then, I cleaned up the cut's edges and sharpened the 
inside of pointy end with a small, fine grind stone on my Dremel (or use a 
round file) to approximately match the angle I will push the tool. Instead of a 
ball for the grip, I used about 4" of the butt end from an old rubber grip 
slipped over the other end of the steel piece of shaft. Works well.

Bernie
bl...@charter.net 


> Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2010 11:56:48 -0500
> From: gra...@sielski.com
> To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com
> Subject: Re: ShopTalk: removing masking tape
> 
> Where can I find the plans to make it?
> 
> Bob
> 
> On 2/1/2010 11:42 AM, Harry F. Schiestel wrote:
> >
> > *The best tool I found was the modified shaft with golf ball attached 
> > – an Arnie Original.*
> >
> > *Real easy to use and not nick the paint on the graphite shaft. I 
> > wouldn’t be without it.*
> >
> > * *
> >
> > *Regards, Harry S*
> >
> > *www.myGolfDNA.com  ***//**
> >
> > 
> >
> > *From:* owner-shopt...@mail.msen.com 
> > [mailto:owner-shopt...@mail.msen.com] *On Behalf Of *Martin, Sam
> > *Sent:* Monday, February 01, 2010 8:37 AM
> > *To:* ShopTalk@mail.msen.com
> > *Subject:* RE: ShopTalk: backups (was: Auditor software) ... and a 
> > golf club question 
> >
> > … I have a devil of a time removing masking tape from the shaft when 
> > re-gripping. I looked at a tool designed to remove tape, a kind of 
> > scraper, but I can see myself gouging hell out of the graphite shaft 
> > on my driver. I haven’t had a lot of luck using my butane torch and I 
> > tire of peeling the stuff off by hand. Any suggestions?
> >
> > Sam Martin
> > C-SPAN
> > 400 N. Capitol St, NW
> > Suite 650
> > Washington DC, 20001
> >
> >
> >
> > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> > Version: 8.5.432 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2662 - Release Date: 02/01/10 
> > 12:37:00
> >
> > 
> --
> Shoptalk ** Sponsored by the new Aldila Voodoo.
> Learn more at http://aldilavoodoo.com/



Hotmail: Powerful Free email with security by Microsoft. Get it now. 

Re: ShopTalk: backups (was: Auditor software) ... and a golf club question ....

[Bernie Baymiller]

MODCOMP! Haven't heard that name in years. I'm sitting here with a dark brown 
coffee cup with "+ MODCOMP Computer Systems for Productivity" all over it. In 
the early 1980s they had an operation in Oak Ridge building systems for nuclear 
power plants. I did a sales catalog for them back then and they gave me the cup 
on one of my many visits.

Bernie
bl...@charter.net 


From: Martin, Sam 
Sent: Monday, February 01, 2010 8:37 AM
To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com 
Subject: RE: ShopTalk: backups (was: Auditor software) ... and a golf club 
question 


NASA, in the early '80s, used something called a 'mini-computer' produced by an 
outfit, MODCOMP out of Ft. Lauderdale. Armed with a 64KB store using magnetic 
core technology, a Winchester head per track disk subsystem packing a whopping 
4MB of storage, a trio of MODCOMP II's controlled the launch sequence for the  
Space Shuttle. Using a common set of inputs, each computer voted on any given 
step in the launch procedure.  The odd man out on any vote was prohibited from 
taking further part in the decision tree. The OS was written in assembly 
language. NASA was such a stickler for consistency and dependability that 
manufacturing was prohibited from making _any_ changes to the hardware design, 
including fixing any bugs whatsoever in the logic (discrete 7400 chips). Very 
little of the logic was embedded in firmware, it was all hardware, giving the 
beast tremendous performance, and to tell you the truth, it wouldn't surprise 
me to find those MCII's chugging away to this day.

 

 . I have a devil of a time removing masking tape from the shaft when 
re-gripping. I looked at a tool designed to remove tape, a kind of scraper, but 
I can see myself gouging hell out of the graphite shaft on my driver. I haven't 
had a lot of luck using my butane torch and I tire of peeling the stuff off by 
hand. Any suggestions?

 

Sam Martin
C-SPAN
400 N. Capitol St, NW
Suite 650
Washington DC, 20001




 

From: owner-shopt...@mail.msen.com [mailto:owner-shopt...@mail.msen.com] On 
Behalf Of Leo Noordhuizen
Sent: Monday, February 01, 2010 6:53 AM
To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com
Subject: Re: ShopTalk: backups (was: Auditor software)

 

Dave,

 

You were slightly earlier and closer to the source I guess. When I started with 
computers in 1970, it was with a 4 KB computer, of course using magnetic core 
memory, and teletype and papertape as I/O devices. I very well remember having 
to key in about 12 instructions on the frontpanel as bootloader, to start the 
machine. Programming then was witchcraft in assembly language; a totally 
different activity compared to programming nowadays. But it was only 6 years 
later in 1976 that I was so lucky to visit Bell Labs and meet the likes of 
Dennis Ritchie and Brian Kernighan, and hear about the UNIX operating system, 
which I used since then. Looking at my Android-based mobile phone, based on 
Linux/UNIX, it is sometimes difficult to really grasp the progress what has 
been made in 40 years.

 

Leo Noordhuizen - The Netherlands

On Sun, Jan 31, 2010 at 9:44 PM, Ed Reeder  wrote:

Dave,
I meant physical security in terms of protection from fire and other
forms of destruction.
These sites go to great lengths to ensure that your data is protected
against these potential threats.

/Ed

On Sat, 30 Jan 2010 18:23 -0500, "Dave Tutelman"
 wrote:

>
> >One thing to investigate is backing up over the Internet.  It provides
> >both physical security
> >and general availability.
>
> Internet backup trades physical reliability (not security) against
> data security. It is in fact LESS secure, even if more reliable. If
> the backup is on my shelf and not connected to anything (especially
> not the Internet), then it can't be hacked.

--
Shoptalk ** Sponsored by the new Aldila Voodoo.
Learn more at http://aldilavoodoo.com/

 
<>

Re: ShopTalk: Equivalent Compound Pendulum Length Matching

[Bernie Baymiller]

Re: ShopTalk: Equivalent Compound Pendulum Length MatchingJohn,

I got the spreadsheet OK, but my copy of the spreadsheet says Read Only.

Bernie
bl...@charter.net 


From: j...@clubmaker-online.com 
Sent: Friday, January 15, 2010 1:23 PM
To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com 
Subject: Re: ShopTalk: Equivalent Compound Pendulum Length Matching


Got the OK to put the spreadsheet up.
Here's the link to the download page http://clubmaker-online.com/rocco.html


He suggested saving a copy under a different file name in case you 
inadvertently change the formulas.


John
shoptalk


  Al:
  I didn't attach anything, I don't think the list software accepts that.
  I've got a copy of the spreadsheet and was told I could distribute it but 
will check with him first, maybe post it on a page to download if it's ok.


  John


Johnnothing attached to my emailthanks


Al Humphrey
PRECISION GOLF SERVICES
271 Providence Club Drive
Monroe, GA 30656
sloswingsp...@yahoo.com
770-207-5360(O)
770-312-6398(mobile)







From: "j...@clubmaker-online.com" 
To: shoptalk@mail.msen.com
Sent: Fri, January 15, 2010 10:51:13 AM
Subject: ShopTalk: Equivalent Compound Pendulum Length Matching

A longtime customer of mine sent me a note that I thought you'd be 
interested in discussing (I've added him to the list). He passed along more 
information to me that explains the procedure he's using that he's welcome to 
send along to the group.

Here's his first note-

"I've attached an Excel spreadsheet which I use to calculate how changing a 
shaft(weight), or a shaft length, or adding a hosel weight affects various 
parameters effecting a clubs performance, their being; center of MOI, SW, 
Center of Gravity equivalent pendulum length, total weight.  It puts a lot of 
information in one  spot."

and this today with a short description-

"Equivalent Compound Pendulum Length Matching  is a composite of taking the 
best from MOI matching, and True Length Technology matching with a little Swing 
Weight common sense thrown in."
--


Thanks!
John Muir
shoptalk

skype: jhmuir
AIM: golfcas...@mac.com
810.923.7396
http://clubmaker-online.com
http://gripscience.com
clubmaker.mobi
golf equipment updates at http://twitter.com/golfcast

sponsored by
http://aldilavoodoo.com




--
Shoptalk ** Sponsored by the new Aldila Voodoo.
Learn more at http://aldilavoodoo.com/




  --
  By the way, I send out monthly information on new golf equipment called The 
Clubmaker Report, would you like me to add your email address to it? Send me a 
quick note if yes.



  Thanks!
  John Muir

  skype: jhmuir
  AIM: golfcas...@mac.com
  810.923.7396
  http://clubmaker-online.com
  http://gripscience.com
  clubmaker.mobi
  golf equipment updates at http://twitter.com/golfcast

  sponsored by
  http://aldilavoodoo.com




-- 
By the way, I send out monthly information on new golf equipment called The 
Clubmaker Report, would you like me to add your email address to it? Send me a 
quick note if yes.



Thanks!
John Muir

skype: jhmuir
AIM: golfcas...@mac.com
810.923.7396
http://clubmaker-online.com
http://gripscience.com
clubmaker.mobi
golf equipment updates at http://twitter.com/golfcast

sponsored by
http://aldilavoodoo.com

Re: ShopTalk: Lightweight clubhead

[Bernie Baymiller]

Don,

You might take a look at some offset driver heads...offset is usually about 
3° to 4° closed. I don't remember what the head was, but a few years ago I 
made a 47" long driver with an offset head for a "slicer" friend. He hit it 
straighter than his shorter non-offset driver. I don't need any more than a 
2° closed face on a 48" driver and can hit a 1° closed OK, but I also hit 
that 3° closed offset head very well. Personally, I just find offset heads 
difficult to line up at the target...probably because I'm just not used to 
the "look" of it.


Bernie
bl...@charter.net


- Original Message - 
From: "Don M" 

To: 
Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 5:39 PM
Subject: Re: ShopTalk: Lightweight clubhead


One gripe I have in the world of so-called custom clubmaking components is 
that every head company sells the same thing.  Average. They make noise 
about the problem with one size fits all off the rack clubs, yet virtually 
every driver head they sell is square to -1* face angle. Except for the wild 
anti-slice models. And every fairway wood is square.  Some "custom" options!


Oh well.  Thanks for checking!

-DonM

--- On Wed, 11/11/09, j...@clubmaker-online.com  
wrote:



From: j...@clubmaker-online.com 
Subject: Re: ShopTalk: Lightweight clubhead
To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com
Date: Wednesday, November 11, 2009, 2:15 PM
I checked with Bang. No 2 deg
closed.
John
>For me, the extra closed face angle seemed to be
>needed when I tried a longer driver.
>
>I wonder if I can find one -2*, low 190s. I
>would think a R9 would do the trick but I'm not
>going to spend that much to find out. :)
>
>-Don M
>
>--- On Wed, 11/11/09, Bernie Baymiller 
wrote:
>
>> From: Bernie Baymiller 
>> Subject: Re: ShopTalk: Lightweight clubhead
>> To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com
>> Date: Wednesday, November 11, 2009, 8:29 AM
>>
>>
>>
>> #yiv1085184231 DIV {
>> MARGIN:0px;}
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Al,
>>
>> My 460cc BOM is 193 grams. I'm using it with
a SKF
>> PE-A which weighed 57 or
>> 58 grams and is inserted the full 2½" bore
>> depth. (My first BOM driver used
>> a plug for 1½" insertion and I tip trimmed
the
>> shaft an inch, but no
>> difference in how the club plays with the
untrimmed shaft
>> fully inserted.) When
>> trimmed to length the shaft weighs 55 grams.
Grip is a
>> mid-size Winn Excel at 44
>> grams. Club is actually 47¾" long, weighs
295 grams
>> and swingweights at D9...or
>> E0 depending on temp, humidity and how much
dust is on my
>> s/w scale. :-).
>>
>> My BOM face is closed about 1°, but I think
if you
>> can find a head closed
>> 2° that it will be easier to get the face
to square if you
>> have a mid to later
>> release point. Key to success with a long
driver, I
>> think, is a club that's
>> just a bit lighter than your favorite short
driver so that
>> it swings with about
>> the same effort. Swingweight has to be
manageable with your
>> wrist and forearm
>> strength. My max at age 65, even when I was
walking our
>> hilly courses and could
>> hike 20 miles a day in the Smokies, was an
E2.
>> With more than that, I'd get
>> tired by the 15th or 16th hole and putt a
ball on
>> somebody's roof, or hit a
>> hooking wormburner. At E2, I had no problems
controlling
>> the club for 18 or more
>> holes.
>>
>> I just had an e-mail from Dave Dugally
suggesting I
>> look at this new head
>> he has in his line-up.
>> http://thegolfcoastonline.com/item.asp?cID=0&PID=1143
>>
>> Looks pretty good to me (except I have to
see if it has
>> changeable weights like
>> the R7). I'll probably try one...has a
sensible lie
>> angle, good size and head
>> weight for a long driver.
>>
>> If you have any questions or problems
hitting the ball
>> straight, I'll be
>> happy to try and help. Those 10 second
videos of a golf
>> swing that you can take
>> with a compact digital camera are a real aid
in
>> "assistance from a distance."
>> :-)
>>
>> Bernie
>> bl...@charter.net
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> - Original Message
>> -
>> From:
>> Allen
>> Humphrey
>> To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com
>>
>> Sent: Tuesday,
>> November 10, 2009 8:45
>> PM
>> Subject: Re:
>> ShopTalk: Lightweight
>> clubhead
>>
>>
>> Berniewhat
>> was the weight of the BOM you are
hittingand if you
>> don't mindwhat
>> light weig

Re: ShopTalk: Lightweight clubhead

[Bernie Baymiller]

Al,

My 460cc BOM is 193 grams. I'm using it with a SKF PE-A which weighed 57 or 58 
grams and is inserted the full 2½" bore depth. (My first BOM driver used a plug 
for 1½" insertion and I tip trimmed the shaft an inch, but no difference in how 
the club plays with the untrimmed shaft fully inserted.) When trimmed to length 
the shaft weighs 55 grams. Grip is a mid-size Winn Excel at 44 grams. Club is 
actually 47¾" long, weighs 295 grams and swingweights at D9...or E0 depending 
on temp, humidity and how much dust is on my s/w scale. :-).

My BOM face is closed about 1°, but I think if you can find a head closed 2° 
that it will be easier to get the face to square if you have a mid to later 
release point. Key to success with a long driver, I think, is a club that's 
just a bit lighter than your favorite short driver so that it swings with about 
the same effort. Swingweight has to be manageable with your wrist and forearm 
strength. My max at age 65, even when I was walking our hilly courses and could 
hike 20 miles a day in the Smokies, was an E2. With more than that, I'd get 
tired by the 15th or 16th hole and putt a ball on somebody's roof, or hit a 
hooking wormburner. At E2, I had no problems controlling the club for 18 or 
more holes.

I just had an e-mail from Dave Dugally suggesting I look at this new head he 
has in his line-up. 
http://thegolfcoastonline.com/item.asp?cID=0&PID=1143  Looks pretty good to me 
(except I have to see if it has changeable weights like the R7). I'll probably 
try one...has a sensible lie angle, good size and head weight for a long 
driver. 

If you have any questions or problems hitting the ball straight, I'll be happy 
to try and help. Those 10 second videos of a golf swing that you can take with 
a compact digital camera are a real aid in "assistance from a distance." :-)

Bernie
bl...@charter.net 




  - Original Message - 
  From: Allen Humphrey 
  To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com 
  Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 8:45 PM
  Subject: Re: ShopTalk: Lightweight clubhead


  Berniewhat was the weight of the BOM you are hittingand if you don't 
mindwhat light weight shaft are you using ?.I have SKF PEs and new 
Fierce Full Force 49g shaftsand if I can be patient enough, want to give it 
a try again. I have a couple of Maltby CT 250 FCs to work with.

  thanks, 


  Al Humphrey 
  PRECISION GOLF SERVICES 
  271 Providence Club Drive 
  Monroe, GA 30656 
  sloswingsp...@yahoo.com 
  770-207-5360(O) 
  770-312-6398(mobile)





----------
  From: Bernie Baymiller 
  To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com
  Sent: Tue, November 10, 2009 8:27:28 PM
  Subject: Re: ShopTalk: Lightweight clubhead

  Dave,

  Open for discussion? OK.

  Dave, if you ever took the time to find the long driver components which 
would work for you and then spent some time practicing with the club (as you 
have to do to hit any club consistently well), you might find the long club 
would work just as well or better than a short one. I really doubt that you've 
ever really tried to do that. The 2008 UK test done by Biomechanics Magazine 
with scratch players to see if there was any difference in accuracy by 
increasing club length concluded length (from 45"- 50") didn't matter. Get the 
head square at impact and the ball goes where it's aimed. A higher swingweight 
certainly does inhibit acceleration from release...In 1995, I had to learn the 
timing at E6, now I play a D9 BOM at 295 grams total weight. But, as John 
points out, there are components now that will make a 48" driver even easier to 
hit than mine...lighter than most OEM 45" drivers and D5 or D6 swingweight are 
certainly possible. There's more difference going from a PW to about a 5W 
length than from a 44" driver to a 48" driver...if you can handle the 
traditional change, you can certainly manage the longer driver difference.

  Today, I see a major problem for the "teener" handicapers beyond driver club 
length...a very upright lie angle...almost every component head I've seen 
lately has had a 59°-60° lie angle. Even a 44" driver needs less than that for 
average height players to get a flat lie. Seems like a 55° lie is about right 
for a 5'9" - 5'11" player. Hitting the new shallower-faced, wider and deeper 
heads with a bulge and roll at a toe-up angle requires a very consistent 
swing...more consistent than mine.  So, I stick with the big, round ball-shaped 
heads like the BOM and the 58° lie angle doesn't make much difference. Can 
anyone explain to me why any designer would put a 60° lie angle on a driver 
head?

  I recently made a 47" BOM for a retired pilot and ex-pro golfer in his 
mid-60s who had been playing a 44" driver. He was beginning to lose some 
distance and some buc

Re: ShopTalk: Lightweight clubhead

[Bernie Baymiller]

Robert,

Yes, you flatten your swing with a longer driver...just like you flatten your 
swing when you go from a PW to a 5W. Actually, anyone's swing remains very much 
the same, with very similar errors no matter what club you are hitting...long 
or short. I did make my most successful set of irons (back when I was 65 years 
old and a 1.5 GHIN) 1" over standard graphite shaft length (Chicago 944C heads 
on Apache PM-30 shafts) and bent the heads 2° flat. Same swing and actually a 
lighter swingweight than my previous steel-shafted irons. Gained 15 yards a 
club when I found I needed the 275 cpm (A2) shafts instead of the 283 cpm (R1). 
I've lost 2" in height since then and a standard length gives me a pretty flat 
lie, so I've given up 10 yards because I don't have to adjust the lie. 
Actually, to me, it doesn't matter what number is on an iron...just so I know 
how far it goes. When I need a longer 3-iron shot, I have a 19° hybrid and inch 
over that will get me 175 on a good shot. Hit my 5-hybrid about 165...the rest 
are irons about 10 yards apart...PW about 100-110 yards.

The point of the Biomechanics study was to find out if longer club length did 
or did not affect the accuracy of a driver. They used scratch players with few 
swing errors who could adjust to a length change in a few swings...results 
showed a player swinging a club properly could hit the ball just as accurately 
with a 48" driver as with his own driver. Of course, the long driver did get 
more distance for all players, though not a much as I've seen many seniors 
get...a good solid hit will get my senior clientele about 8-10 yards per extra 
inch. Some senior women using my long drivers got as much as 15 yards per extra 
inch. I agree that a long driver made too heavy, or with too high a swingweight 
for the player will not play well. You have to know your player's limits, swing 
type, etc. to build the club properly. I went to a Ping or Cobra demo day at 
our Toqua range a year ago (don't remember whose it was) and, to my surprise, 
they had a 48" demo driver. OMG, it was heavy...they just took a standard 200+ 
gram head and a standard shaft and used probably a 55 gram grip. I could barely 
get it moving. It was 40 yards shorter than my BOM. Build the long driver 
properly and it is no more difficult to swing than a shorter driver. 

When a fairly strong senior, with say about a 15 handicap, makes a slight pull 
or push swing and hits a ball off-line with a 44" driver, he's in the deep 
Bermuda rough on our courses. Can't hit out with any club lofted less than a 
5-iron. Maybe the ball went 225 yards...not much chance of getting to the 
green. Make the same swing error with a 48" driver and he's 25-30 yards farther 
up in the rough...255 yards is not usually enough farther off-line to be in the 
woods and a whole lot better chance to knock an iron on the green or close to 
it. I think you win more than you lose on "near misses" with a long driver you 
have some ability to hit. Now, if I was hitting the ball 280 or 290 yards on an 
off-line trajectory, sure I could be in the woods. Not many seniors over 60 
years old can do that. To score well, you have to play to the design of the 
course. At age 60, I wanted to hit the ball far enough off the tee to have most 
second shots a 7-iron or less. I could hit the green 85% of the time with a 
7-iron, but a 5-iron was more like 60%. The long driver took me from 220 with 
my old steel-shafted 43" driver (that I hit 255 at age 30) to 265+ and made the 
best golfing year of my life possible at age 65 in 1999.

Bernie
bl...@charter.net 
- Original Message - 
  From: Robert Devino 
  To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com 
  Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 8:51 PM
  Subject: Re: ShopTalk: Lightweight clubhead


  I have to admit I am a bit confused here.  The whole point of club fitting is 
to get the length , stiffness and swing weighted club that best fit the player. 
  If you lengthen a club don't you need to flatten your swing?
  So now you want an average player to have to change his swing plane even 
more?   So getting long on length just doesn't make a whole lot of sense to 
me.  I mean why not just have our irons made 2 inches over and flatten them 6 
degrees???   

  From what I have seen and according to the average handicap of the average 
player 45, inches is too long for almost all of them.  Why try to push them 
into 48 inches for a few more yards of an off line drive.   You can put almost 
any club in a pros hands and they will figure out how to hit it pretty well 
even if the shaft is made from rope.  So test results using a pro or a machine 
are pretty irrelavent when it comes to what an average player can handle or 
can't handle. 


  Sincerely,
  Robert Devino
  14252 Delano St.
  Van Nuys, Ca. 91401
  (818) 908-1691





--

Re: ShopTalk: Lightweight clubhead

[Bernie Baymiller]

Dave,

Open for discussion? OK.

Dave, if you ever took the time to find the long driver components which 
would work for you and then spent some time practicing with the club (as you 
have to do to hit any club consistently well), you might find the long club 
would work just as well or better than a short one. I really doubt that 
you've ever really tried to do that. The 2008 UK test done by Biomechanics 
Magazine with scratch players to see if there was any difference in accuracy 
by increasing club length concluded length (from 45"- 50") didn't matter. 
Get the head square at impact and the ball goes where it's aimed. A higher 
swingweight certainly does inhibit acceleration from release...In 1995, I 
had to learn the timing at E6, now I play a D9 BOM at 295 grams total 
weight. But, as John points out, there are components now that will make a 
48" driver even easier to hit than mine...lighter than most OEM 45" drivers 
and D5 or D6 swingweight are certainly possible. There's more difference 
going from a PW to about a 5W length than from a 44" driver to a 48" 
driver...if you can handle the traditional change, you can certainly manage 
the longer driver difference.


Today, I see a major problem for the "teener" handicapers beyond driver club 
length...a very upright lie angle...almost every component head I've seen 
lately has had a 59°-60° lie angle. Even a 44" driver needs less than that 
for average height players to get a flat lie. Seems like a 55° lie is about 
right for a 5'9" - 5'11" player. Hitting the new shallower-faced, wider and 
deeper heads with a bulge and roll at a toe-up angle requires a very 
consistent swing...more consistent than mine.  So, I stick with the big, 
round ball-shaped heads like the BOM and the 58° lie angle doesn't make much 
difference. Can anyone explain to me why any designer would put a 60° lie 
angle on a driver head?


I recently made a 47" BOM for a retired pilot and ex-pro golfer in his 
mid-60s who had been playing a 44" driver. He was beginning to lose some 
distance and some bucks to the guys in his group (which includes a 2-time 
Tennessee senior champion with a plus handicap) and he wanted to try a 
longer (and lighter) driver. He practices a lot and it didn't take him very 
long at all to usually outdrive almost everyone in his group...picked up 
maybe 30 or 40 yards. Well, he had to cut the driver down an inch to 46" 
because he was hitting it too far. I played with him and his wife Sunday 
(gorgeous afternoon...sunny and 70°, fall colors and faint breeze) and he's 
dialed the club back to the 280-290 yard range, which from our regular men's 
tees is still a bit past most ideal positions for a second shot. At 75 with 
a titanium left knee (too much golf) and a anti-rejection drug gut, I'm 
struggling to get to 250 yards with the 48-incher. So, sometimes I'll try a 
heavier-headed, shorter 44" driver (Turner MT at 214 grams, for instance), 
or my oldie-but-goodie Integra Super 450 (the original 195 gram high COR 
version) at 45" with a heavier Penley shaft. I always find that I don't hit 
them any more accurately or consistently than the long driver...and I lose 
20-30 yards...worth about 3 shots a round difference in my comparison tests.


I've been building long drivers for men and women seniors from 60-80 years 
old since 1996 (and some younger guys who want scramble drivers). Those who 
learned to hit those drivers lowered their handicaps by maybe 3-4 shots on 
average. I've seen a few better players go from around an 11 to a 4 in 2 
months and several 22s go to near 15. Very few, who used my clubs with the 
longer length, stayed with them and achieved more distance on their drives, 
did not improve their scores. Those who listened to the nay-sayers on length 
and gave up during the learning curve (about 2 months) certainly did not 
improve.


John, have you received any negative comments from anyone on the long 
drivers you've built for them?


Bernie
bl...@charter.net




- Original Message - 
From: "Dave Tutelman" 

To: 
Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 5:19 PM
Subject: Re: ShopTalk: Lightweight clubhead



At 10:21 AM 11/10/2009, j...@clubmaker-online.com wrote:
I'm thinking of having a batch of high loft lightweight (190-195g) 
clubheads made up for senior longdrive clubs.


This is not a private response, but something for general discussion...

Vector (our own David Dugally's company) and perhaps a few others are 
going in the opposite direction. His "Tour Spec" head is in the 206g 
range, to limit the length you need to build the club with lightweight 
shafts.


I understand Bernie's argument about long drivers, and I'm certainly 
willing to stipulate it works for some. Not everybody. Likely not most. It 
certaily does not work for me. Many golfers need shorter, not longer, 
drivers than the OEMs supply off the rack.


I have a few drivers made with the Vector Tour Spec heads. They are made 
with lightweight to ultra-light shafts, 

Re: ShopTalk: Shaft extensions?

[Bernie Baymiller]

Robert,

I always consider the effect of any club modification. A 4" near-butt piece 
from a 55-60 gram wood shaft pushed down into a shaft adds about 5 grams under 
the hands, a 5" piece from a 65 gram shaft is about 8 grams. That's less than 
than the difference of going from a 43 gram Winn grip to a 52 gram Lamkin 
Crossline. The 4-gram difference between 1.5" insertion and 4" insertion is 
less than 4.5 grams. I've seen no change in how a club plays with this little 
weight placed under the hands. Having done many, many extensions to use a 46" 
shaft for a 48" driver (though I don't like to do it), the length of the 
extension makes much more difference...IMO, 6 s/w points per inch plus the 
change in lie angle has a much greater effect on playability than 10 grams 
added to the total weight.

Bernie
bl...@charter.net  
  - Original Message - 
  From: Robert Devino 
  To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com 
  Sent: Thursday, October 29, 2009 11:33 PM
  Subject: Re: ShopTalk: Shaft extensions?


  Yeah I like to do the capping with a graphite butt end as well it looks 
really clean when done right.

  But I do have an issue with a 4 to 5 inch insertion into the shaft. If you 
need to extend more than an 1 1/2 inch you should realistically re-shaft 
instead of extending unless your doing a putter.with a 1 1/2 inch extension 
any more than a 2 inch insertion depth into the old shaft.  When you start 
going over that you really start getting to a point that your adding to much 
weight to the club.   You have to remember when your modifying one spec of a 
club it will effect the others specs and over all playability.I mean 
honestly what good is a club that is the right length but the balance of the 
club isn't right and it causes the player a different problem.  Too many club 
builders don't consider the over all effect of a modification to a club before 
they build it.  Then they player just has a club they can't play??  


  Sincerely,
  Robert Devino
  14252 Delano St.
  Van Nuys, Ca. 91401
  (818) 908-1691





----------
  From: Bernie Baymiller 
  To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com
  Sent: Thu, October 29, 2009 7:00:38 PM
  Subject: Re: ShopTalk: Shaft extensions?


  I agree with Tom. I save all the old, busted shafts that I get. There'll be 
one in the pile with a similar taper. I slide it in 'til tight, mark, trim 4 or 
5 inches below and the amount of extension above. But then, I've saved all my 
butt trims, too. And because time isn't money to me anymore, for graphite 
shafts I'll just find a butt piece which slides right over the extension, prep 
and epoxy all pieces together. That makes a nice smooth finished look with an 
almost invisible seam and, I think, the entire double-thick extension adds a 
little bit of extra strength. Since most of my "customers" are friends from the 
"neighborhood," they often drop by and watch while I'm doing their job. So, I 
think the neatness of finished extension (with the butt trim slip-over piece 
exactly matching the O.D. of the shaft) impresses the customer a bit.

  Bernie
  bl...@charter.net 
- Original Message - 
From: Tom Flanagan 
To: shoptalk 
Sent: Thursday, October 29, 2009 9:19 PM
Subject: RE: ShopTalk: Shaft extensions?


Why buy extensions when just about every shop/garage is loaded with junk 
shafts? I can't remember the last time, if ever, I paid for a shaft extension. 
One problem with over the counter shaft extensions is the insertion depth - 
only a couple inches. If I'm doing say, a 3" extension I want nearly 4" down 
the shaft.  


No doubt sanding down a dowel works, but again, why? The butt ends of 
shafts are generally tapered, and the old shafts are tapered. The fit is tight. 
I've yet to have one fail. Maybe I'm too cheap, but I like using up old busted 
shafts for extensions. 


TFlan




Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 12:23:02 -0700
From: robertdev...@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: ShopTalk: Shaft extensions?
To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com


You know if you take a micrometer to the inside of the shafts your 
extending and find what the I.D. is you will be able to order extensions that 
fit. 


Sincerely,
Robert Devino
14252 Delano St.
Van Nuys, Ca. 91401
(818) 908-1691 






F



Windows 7: It helps you do more. Explore Windows 7. 

Re: ShopTalk: Shaft extensions?

[Bernie Baymiller]

I agree with Tom. I save all the old, busted shafts that I get. There'll be one 
in the pile with a similar taper. I slide it in 'til tight, mark, trim 4 or 5 
inches below and the amount of extension above. But then, I've saved all my 
butt trims, too. And because time isn't money to me anymore, for graphite 
shafts I'll just find a butt piece which slides right over the extension, prep 
and epoxy all pieces together. That makes a nice smooth finished look with an 
almost invisible seam and, I think, the entire double-thick extension adds a 
little bit of extra strength. Since most of my "customers" are friends from the 
"neighborhood," they often drop by and watch while I'm doing their job. So, I 
think the neatness of finished extension (with the butt trim slip-over piece 
exactly matching the O.D. of the shaft) impresses the customer a bit.

Bernie
bl...@charter.net 
  - Original Message - 
  From: Tom Flanagan 
  To: shoptalk 
  Sent: Thursday, October 29, 2009 9:19 PM
  Subject: RE: ShopTalk: Shaft extensions?


  Why buy extensions when just about every shop/garage is loaded with junk 
shafts? I can't remember the last time, if ever, I paid for a shaft extension. 
One problem with over the counter shaft extensions is the insertion depth - 
only a couple inches. If I'm doing say, a 3" extension I want nearly 4" down 
the shaft. 


  No doubt sanding down a dowel works, but again, why? The butt ends of shafts 
are generally tapered, and the old shafts are tapered. The fit is tight. I've 
yet to have one fail. Maybe I'm too cheap, but I like using up old busted 
shafts for extensions. 


  TFlan



--
  Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 12:23:02 -0700
  From: robertdev...@yahoo.com
  Subject: Re: ShopTalk: Shaft extensions?
  To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com


  You know if you take a micrometer to the inside of the shafts your extending 
and find what the I.D. is you will be able to order extensions that fit. 


  Sincerely,
  Robert Devino
  14252 Delano St.
  Van Nuys, Ca. 91401
  (818) 908-1691





--
  F


--
  Windows 7: It helps you do more. Explore Windows 7. 

Re: ShopTalk: Is it possible to hate a club?

[Bernie Baymiller]

>Several guys here have said that using the 60 or even 64 degree wedges 
>requires a lot of practice. Why not just practice with the 56 and 58 degree 
>clubs - or even (gasp!) a 9 iron? I spent a lot of hours practicing 8 and 9 
>irons for lob shots. That was a long time ago when I was a kid and didn't have 
>a lot of clubs. We practiced, my cousin and I, with what we had - about 5 or 6 
>wooden shafted irons, handed down from an uncle. We had to invent shots then.

Yup. But my 9-iron was 50° in those days...a big, wide forged stainless head 
Dad had made in a 1940 Bobby Jones Tournament Model set with open dies to add 
thickness and weight. Didn't have a sand wedge. Layed the 9 wide open for the 
flop shots or sand...closed it down for punch shots out of the rough. Now, my 
PW is only 45°...can't do near as much with that as my old 9-iron. Still, at 
near 75 years old, the much newer and lighter PW is far easier to swing and be 
consistent for distance (about 110 yards) and direction. Also, have good feel 
for inbetween-shots down to my SW distance of 75 yards...technique learned with 
old 9-iron.

>Remember my comparison of fisherman and golfers; it's called "fishing" not 
>catching. Tackle boxes, like golf bags, are filled with lures that don't work.

C'mon Tom, at some moment all clubs and all lures will work...some just have 
more moments than others. :-)Reminds me of our family vacation at Destin last 
year. I was throw-netting for bait-size mullet and surf fishing at the family's 
hotel beach. When I fish like that at Myrtle Beach, I usually do well for Reds, 
Sheephead, Flounder, etc. I wasn't getting anything that day at Destin. Then, 
this teen-age kid comes down near me with a fresh-water rod baited with plastic 
soda straw above a treble hook. He hurls it out and started catching all kinds 
of fish on it. Who'da thunk it? 

Bernie
bl...@charter.net 

Re: ShopTalk: Favorite Club for 2009

[Bernie Baymiller]

Tedd,

Yes, max scores on a hole is the way we play here in our "old farts" group 
of 5-6 foursomes. Depending on the game we are playing (eg: two low net), if 
a player is out of a hole anyway, he puts the ball in his pocket and goes to 
the next hole. Handicap under 10, he gets a DB, over 10 gets a TB. Speeds up 
play quite a bit. Sure, you can play the hole out if you want to do that, 
but since we are basically a retirement community here in Tellico Village 
and even cooler East Tennessee summer days can be hot in the afternoon, 
everyone wants to play early in the day and get finished. We use a crossover 
system (front and backside starts) with 9-minute intervals between 
foursomes. And, since there are a lot of old guys here with high handicaps, 
putting the ball in pocket when out of the hole, keeps 4 hour and 15 minute 
rounds from becoming 5:30. Funny, but after 2PM our courses are all but 
deserted. That might end next year when we're going to a debit card payment 
system so the cost of a round can vary based on time of day...will probably 
cost more before 2PM and less after 2PM in the summer. Maybe they'll reverse 
that for winter, or really reduce costs on cold days to encourage more play 
and generate more income. Will be interesting to see how that works out. 
Right now, several area courses are changing cost/round at different times 
of day and our players here are taking advantage of lower cost/round...our 
courses are losing that income. Competition at work. :-)


Vanity handicaps? Fine with me, especially in stroke play tournaments. 
Usually makes winning easier for the "honest" handicap player.  Sandbaggers 
are more of a problem and taking a maximum scorecard DB or TB seems to hold 
down the sandbagging a bit. The "maximum score allowed" rules even drove one 
well-known sandbagger here to join another golf course. That guy had a 16 
handicap, but would invariably shoot a mid-70s score in a tournament with 
"prize money." He also had "outsider" players he'd bring in just for 
scrambles...guys who hit the ball 320 yards off the tee with scratch 
handicaps. His group would win 3 out of 4 scrambles they played in, since 
most of the guys here just get friends from their group to play in the 
"for-charity" scrambles. When the guy's handicap dropped to 8, he left.


One problem here this year, now that we have 5 sets of tees back to 
front...Gold, Blue, White (usual senior tee), Orange (new Super Senior tee) 
and Green (ladies)...groups who have super seniors who can still hit the 
ball 250 yards off the tee, won't let them play off the orange tee, so 
everyone has to play off the white tees. Then, the super senior 
short-hitters complain about not being allowed to play from the orange tee. 
At 74 and with my long driver, I can still get out to 250 yards (or near 
that) most of the time. There would be no end of bitching if I played off 
the orange tee. And, our group with about 30 players (members and subs) has 
several senior players who can outhit me...one by at least by 50 yards. 
Handicaps run from a 5 to 23, at least three-quarters of whom are 13 or 
more, with maybe 5 players 18 or more.


Bernie
bl...@charter.net

- Original Message - 
From: "Childers, Tedd A" 

To: 
Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2009 9:26 AM
Subject: RE: ShopTalk: Favorite Club for 2009


FYI, "gimmees" or conceded putts/holes are perfectly legal in match play, 
and those rounds are required to be posted for handicap purposes.  The 
handicap system has specific rules for match play and conceded 
putts/holes, stating that "the most likely score" is to be posted for any 
conceded hole.  In other words, if someone concedes a one foot putt to you 
for a par, you record a par for handicap purposes (that would be the most 
likely score as you almost always make a one foot putt).  However, if they 
concede the hole and you have a 25 footer, your most likely result would 
be 2 putts from that distance.  Also, even if you win the match on hole 
14, that score should be posted as well, and there are rules in place for 
how.


Tedd

-Original Message-
From: owner-shopt...@mail.msen.com [mailto:owner-shopt...@mail.msen.com] 
On Behalf Of Don M

Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2009 9:10 AM
To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com
Subject: Re: ShopTalk: Favorite Club for 2009


Maybe he's talking about playing for real money, not funsie stuff among 
buddies.  If I was playing for real money, I would not trust anyone's 
handicap either.  At least not with the US handicapping system.


-Don M

--- On Tue, 8/4/09, Chris Stricker  wrote:


From: Chris Stricker 
Subject: Re: ShopTalk: Favorite Club for 2009
To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com
Date: Tuesday, August 4, 2009, 5:22 AM



#yiv1424824497 DIV {
MARGIN:0px;}




Exactly why I don't
play for money.
Uptight low handicappers who think we're all
equal.

  - Original Message
- 
  From:

  Robert
  Devino
  To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com

  Sent: Monday, August
03, 2009 11:27
  PM
  Subject: 

Re: ShopTalk: Favorite Club for 2009

[Bernie Baymiller]

David,

No, couldn't see the ball go in. In fact, I thought I hit it over. The green is 
about 45 yards deep with a big ridge across the middle of the green from about 
8 o'clock on the left to 2 o'clock on the right, then it flattens out in the 
back with a slight tilt to the right. The pin was about 10' from the back edge. 
I could see the ball go where I aimed it, a foot or so left of the flag, when I 
hit it and I knew it would carry the ridge. Then, since I was hitting from 
maybe 10 or 15 feet lower than the green, the ball disappeared. When I got up 
beside the green, I could see the ball mark about 12' in front of the flag and 
figured the ball was in the heavy rough behind the green. Took my wedge and 
putter, but no ball behind the green. With all the rain we've been having, the 
greens are really soft. Ball must have spun well, rolled and took the slight 
break to the right into the hole. Surprises are sometimes good. :-)

Bernie
bl...@charter.net 
  - Original Message - 
  From: vectorgo...@aol.com 
  To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com 
  Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 10:31 PM
  Subject: Re: ShopTalk: Favorite Club for 2009


  Way to go Bernie!!!
  Could you see it go in?
  David

  In a message dated 8/3/2009 5:45:42 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, 
bl...@charter.net writes:
John,
Funny thing happened today. The day after I chose my cheapo 4-hybrid club 
as 
my favorite new club, I holed a 175 yard second shot on an uphill par-4 
(#13 
at Tanasi) for an eagle with the club. I can't remember ever knocking a 
ball 
in the hole from that far away. It certainly was the highlight of the 
day...rest of the game was not so hot.

Bernie
bl...@charter.net


--

Re: ShopTalk: Favorite Club for 2009

[Bernie Baymiller]

John,
Funny thing happened today. The day after I chose my cheapo 4-hybrid club as 
my favorite new club, I holed a 175 yard second shot on an uphill par-4 (#13 
at Tanasi) for an eagle with the club. I can't remember ever knocking a ball 
in the hole from that far away. It certainly was the highlight of the 
day...rest of the game was not so hot.


Bernie
bl...@charter.net


--
Shoptalk ** Sponsored by the new Aldila Voodoo.
Learn more at http://aldilavoodoo.com/

Re: ShopTalk: Favorite Club for 2009

[Bernie Baymiller]

When I hit 70 years of age almost 5 years ago, I finally gave up on a 
3-iron. Never had much use for hybrids...my old Mars Cydonia LCG 5W worked 
just fine at 185 yards. But, last year Tour Golf closed out some left-over 
hybrids they called Special Edition Ironwoods that were sold as a set 
5-hybrid through SW hybrid in 2005. I got the left-over 4 version for about 
$9, somewhere around an 18° loft near as I can tell (about a normal 3-iron 
loft, I guess...5 was listed in catalog at 21°), to give it a try. Also 
wanted to try a lightweight $9.20  R/S hybrid shaft from Monark called the 
Neon Hybrid. Added a 69-cent (on sale) Seamless Softwrap grip and built the 
club to 40", like my old Chicago 944C 3-iron, with a soft step to a high 
A-flex. I couldn't believe the result..long, high draws about 170-180 
yards...amost as long as my 43" 5W and far more consistent than my 3-iron 
ever was. Wanted to get the 3 and 5 versions of the SE Ironwoods, but they 
were all gone. My handicap has come back to a single digit (7.6 GHIN) from a 
10 since I started using the 4-hybrid SE. (Summer distances helped, too. ) 
If anyone knows where to find the 3, 5 or 6 of this set, please let me know.


Bernie
bl...@charter.net

- Original Message - 
From: 

To: 
Sent: Saturday, August 01, 2009 1:05 PM
Subject: ShopTalk: Favorite Club for 2009


Now that the golf season has been in full swing for a while and you've had 
a chance to try out 2009 component combo's, I wonder which you all had the 
most luck with.
My favorite new club is the Cleveland Niblick. I finally gave up trying to 
learn how to chip and the Niblick has saved me on many occasions. Last 
week I sunk two long chips out of 9 holes.

--


Thanks!
John Muir
http://clubmaker-online.com
http://gripscience.com
http://thedriverstudio.com
http://twitter.com/golfcast
810.923.7396

sponsored by the new Aldila Voodoo
http://aldilavoodoo.html

--
Shoptalk ** Sponsored by the new Aldila Voodoo.
Learn more at http://aldilavoodoo.com/




--
Shoptalk ** Sponsored by the new Aldila Voodoo.
Learn more at http://aldilavoodoo.com/

ShopTalk: e-mail address

[Bernie Baymiller]

Terry Atkinson,

Can you send me a valid e-mail address so I can respond to your questions? Have 
tried several times with no success. Thanks.

Bernie
bl...@charter.net 

ShopTalk: Terry in the UK

[Bernie Baymiller]

Terry Atkinson,

I tried to reply to your questions, but the e-mail wouldn't go through. 

Bernie
bl...@charter.net 

Re: ShopTalk: Long Driver help

[Bernie Baymiller]

Mary,

I wouldn't use a 46" shaft if you want to go to 48" or 50". (Why 50"? That 
length is not comforming to USGA rules and will have a very high, difficult to 
control swingweight.)  Extended shafts to 48" have not ever worked well for me 
and I've been building/playing long drivers since 1994.Go with a 48" ultralight 
weight shaft, maybe one that's one flex stiffer than you would usually play. 
The old Aldila Longwood 50/50 R was a really good 50" shaft at 57 grams, but 
was discontinued a few years back. The long shafts available today aren't all 
expensive. The 48" SKFiber Pure Energy shaft in an A-flex works very well for a 
48" club length for me and is under $35. I'm a 5' 9", 74 year old senior with a 
swing speed in that 85 to 90 mph speed playing a 193 gram Bang-O-Matic on a 
Pure Energy A tipped 1" with a 43 gram Winn Excel. The driver is 48" long, has 
a total weight of 296 grams and swingweights at E0. Keep the total weight 
around 295 grams or less and you'll find the club easy to swing fast and easier 
to control. Keep the swingweight at E0 or less and the club won't be as tiring 
to swing. 

Be careful of the newer high MOI, shallower-faced heads with the lies around 
59°-60° and head weights at 200+ grams. The toe-up head position at address 
doesn't usually work well at 48" for anyone 5' 9" or under, unless the head has 
a big, round shape. My BOM lie is 58°, but the head is kind of shaped like a 
slightly "flattened grapefruit," so it does OK. A few years ago when lies on 
drivers could be found at 55° and 56°, those heads worked much better on long 
drivers. 

Most of the senior women for whom I build clubs can gain about 10-15 yards for 
each extra inch that they can handle...most senior men get 8-10 yards per extra 
inch. I think the difference is in the women's better flexibility for the turn 
and in the release. I can still get 245-255 yards with a good swing on a 48" 
driver...down from 270 at age 65...and occasionally still get a 270+ hit on a 
hard fairway downwind. :-) And, I hit it more accurately than most shorter 
drivers I've tried.

Bernie
bl...@charter.net 


  - Original Message - 
  From: Mary Braun 
  To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com 
  Sent: Saturday, June 13, 2009 8:50 PM
  Subject: ShopTalk: Long Driver help


  Dear Shoptalkers,
   I recently have tried experimenting with a longer driver. My swing 
speed is around 85-90, I normally use an A flex in all my clubs. I  had a butt 
extender put into my Ping Driver, 10.5* with the stock TPC soft regular shaft, 
total length now is 48". I hit it okay but the launch angle is much too high, 
all carry no roll type of thing. When I swing it I can see how whippy it is, my 
question is how can I lower the launch angle? What would be a good shaft choice 
for reshafting this and what flex. Ideally the longer the better but I don't 
know who makes 50 inch shafts that don't cause mega bucks.Thanks for all 
suggestions. 
  Mary

Re: ShopTalk: Need Address

[Bernie Baymiller]

Bob,

I'm at bl...@charter.net.

Bernie
bl...@charter.net 
  - Original Message - 
  From: Bob Barrette 
  To: shop talk shop 
  Sent: Monday, May 11, 2009 1:11 PM
  Subject: ShopTalk: Need Address


Hi:
I need Bernie Baymillers email address if anyone has it. 


Regards,

Bob



Golf; a chain of misfortunes, shrouded by an occasional miracle, 
followed by adult beverages! 

ShopTalk: Aldila C-UL A/L

[Bernie Baymiller]

Anyone know where I can get an Aldila C-UL A/L flex shaft? A pull-out would be 
OK if in good shape and long enough to make a matched 43" 3W for a senior. 
Thanks.

Bernie
bl...@charter.net 

Re: ShopTalk: Cleveland U/L

[Bernie Baymiller]

I ran this through my S/W estimator also. If final length is 46.75" and total 
weight is 282, here's a possibility:

46" uncut shaft weighing 48 grams. A 190 gram head is certainly possible...my 
BOM 460cc is 193 grams. Grip at 39 grams...I've seen several OEM clubs with 
this weight grip. S/W estimate for those numbers is D4 and balance point is 
10.6". If your balance point is near there, these numbers might be close. 

Guessing actual components might make a good contest. Maybe win a booby prize? 
:-)

Bernie
bl...@charter.net 
  - Original Message - 
  From: Tom Flanagan 
  To: shoptalk 
  Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 8:36 PM
  Subject: RE: ShopTalk: Cleveland U/L


  Yeah, the numbers are kinda goofy. I'm using a digital weight scale that 
measures +/1 one gram, a Golfsmith SW scale that's flat and level, a Club Scout 
freq meter, a Golfsmith length scale and a couple of loft angle finders of 
indeterminate pedigree. 


  No doubt if the shaft were say 45" it would be a lot lighter and for sure the 
SW would be about 12 points less, assuming 6 points/inch. 


  I think I mentioned in an earlier post that if the paint is scraped off the 
shafts the weight comes down several grams. I can't do anything with this club 
- I could probably pop the grip I suppose, but that's about all. 


  Come to think of it, I have a couple relatively light A flex shafts somewhere 
in the pile. I don't recall if they're pullouts but no problem if they are. I 
can just shove a plug in and freq them at 47" for comparison. I have a whole 
lot of driver heads as well so I may be able to come up with something that 
makes sense. 


  T

  > Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 16:58:29 -0700
  > From: d...@mcluckie.net
  > Subject: Re: ShopTalk: Cleveland U/L
  > To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com
  > 
  > 
  > Wow, 47"! I wonder if the light weight is a big part of it. 282 is super 
light.
  > 
  > The CPM sounds low at first, but I'm thinking it's about a typical A if you 
convert it to a more normal length, ungripped.
  > 
  > I would still think the shaft probably weighs a bit more and the head a bit 
less than your estimates. 
  > 
  > [elevator music]
  > 
  > Well I just ran the numbers in the swingweight program and was getting 
numbers in the high E's. The only way to get it near 282/D6 was a lower head 
weight (mid 190s), higher shaft and grip weights. I'm not arguing, just giving 
you the info for whatever it's worth. 
  > 
  > Maybe measure the balance point, and then compare later to whatever you 
build?
  > 
  > It's neat that you got your hands on one to measure. Have fun!
  > 
  > -don M
  > 
  > --- On Wed, 4/1/09, Tom Flanagan  wrote:
  > 
  >> From: Tom Flanagan 
  >> Subject: ShopTalk: Cleveland U/L
  >> To: "shoptalk" , "Spine" 

  >> Date: Wednesday, April 1, 2009, 5:44 PM
  >> 
  >> 
  >> 
  >> #yiv68828643 .hmmessage P
  >> {
  >> margin:0px;padding:0px;}
  >> #yiv68828643 {
  >> font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana;}
  >> 
  >> 
  >> 
  >> Got the club today; Here's what I measured. 
  >> Cleveland Ultra Lite Edition, Launcher High
  >> MOI12 degree loft.Shaft - Graphite
  >> Design "40 Grams"Grip  -
  >> Winn/Cleveland "Special Design" - supposedly 37
  >> gramLength - measured to butt end of grip: 46
  >> 7/8"Static Weight - 282 gramsFreq
  >> - 5" clamp with grip - 204 cpm (!)SW -
  >> D6
  >> So assuming the Winn grip is actually 37 grams
  >> and the shaft is actually 40 grams, subtract that from the
  >> overall 282 grams and get a head weight 205 grams. Certainly
  >> nothing special there. I estimated my Cobra head to be about
  >> 208 grams on a slightly heavier shaft. 
  >> I have a Cleveland Launcher 10 1/2 deg
  >> "R"flex, 45", that weighs 318 grams, so I
  >> suppose the advert "30 grams lighter" is correct
  >> compared to that club. 
  >> But 204 cpm gripped, at nearly 47" and D6
  >> is really something to wonder about. First thing I'd do
  >> is pull the grip and put a heavier one on and maybe cut a
  >> 1/2" off the length to get the SW down to D1/D2 or so.
  >>  
  >> My Cobra that I fooled with last week, if I
  >> added 1 1/2" to it and put a typical grip with 3 wraps
  >> under it would weigh in at about 306 - 308 grams. It's
  >> actually 306 grams gripped now, at 45". 
  >> So to compare freqs; Cleveland 204 gripped,
  >> Cobra @ 45" no grip, 236. Add grip and 1 1/2" and
  >> I'd get to about 215 or so, I'm
  >> guessing. 
  >> However, I did hit it today, a large bucket of
  >> range balls. After some considerable adjustment in setup and
  >> swing, it went pretty much as I remembered. Straight,
  >> moderately high, and longer than with the Cobra. So I'm
  >> thinking of changing the Cobra; make it longer, see what
  >> happens. 
  >> Geez, after all this time maybe I can swing a
  >> longer driver. Hate to admit Bernie may have been on to
  >> something 
  >> TFlan
  >> 
  >> Rediscover Hotmail®: Now available on
  >> your iPhone or BlackBerry Check
  >> it out. 
  >> 
  > --
  > Shoptalk

ShopTalk: Tom's deleted e-mail

[Bernie Baymiller]

Tom,

Hotmail. That's why your e-mail gets deleted on my computer. I was getting so 
much spam and harassment on Hotmail that I blocked it. Charter is the worst 
high speed internet service in the country and doesn't care what goes through, 
nor has enough servers here to handle the traffic . But, in a county that sells 
an internet monopoly, its our only choice. 

Bernie
bl...@charter.net 
  - Original Message - 
  From: Tom Flanagan 
  To: shoptalk 
  Sent: Monday, March 23, 2009 6:33 PM
  Subject: RE: ShopTalk: Long driver


  No clue. I'm using Hotmail. You're the first to mention it. I get stuff in 
the "Junk" box AND in the Inbox from John Muir and a couple others. Odd. 


  T


--
  From: bl...@charter.net
  To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com
  Subject: Re: ShopTalk: Long driver
  Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2009 16:15:30 -0400


  Tom,

  For some strange reason, all your e-mails are going directly to my Deleted 
Items. Don't know why, because you aren't on my blocked sender list. All the 
other in-coming Shoptalk e-mail goes to my Shoptalk folder in my Inbox.

  Bernie
  bl...@charter.net 
- Original Message - 
From: Tom Flanagan 
To: shoptalk 
Sent: Monday, March 23, 2009 1:44 PM
Subject: RE: ShopTalk: Long driver


Howdy Bub; 


I built about a dozen versions of long drivers since you started this topic 
-  how long ago? And before, too. But "before" I was using steel shafts at 
44.5" on wood heads. I had one laminated head in which i drilled a honeycomb 
under the sold plate to remove weight. I never got it to a usable SW except for 
if King Kong was swinging it. 


That aside, I've built drivers to 48" and down. Found that the most 
comfortable for me was at about 46" max. My choppy lurch didn't accommodate the 
longer or better timed swing. I simply could not hit them. The last one I made 
was a "Bangenstein" HiLoft on a Penley something. 47". Couldn't hit it at all. 
Sold it to a guy who killed it. So I've been reluctant to go to the extra long 
driver. 


And I was reluctant to hit the Cleveland, too, as i mentioned, based upon 
prior experience. For what ever reason - age, slower swing, more sweep than 
hit, don't know - I killed it. 46.5" super light worked for me. So in answer to 
your question "Why mess around with the short clubs . . . etc", I guess it's 
because this particular one worked. I don't intend to buy one - yet, even 
though the heavily discounted price comes close to what I'd eventually end up 
paying to build one. 


And this may seem scurrilous to all here, but frankly, I'm getting tired of 
screwing around with building clubs. After 50 years of it I'm thinking I'll 
pretty much stick with regripping, bending and reshafting. I have too damn many 
"experiments" in my pile of stuff as it is. Gotta get rid of them


Junior golf, here I come. 


TFlan



From: bl...@charter.net
To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com
Subject: Re: ShopTalk: Long driver
Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2009 22:11:41 -0400


Tom,

Why mess around with the short clubs when you can go to 48" club length? A 
193 gram BOM plugged to 1½" bore depth with a 58 gram Pure Energy A (about 55 
trimmed) and 43 gram Winn Excel midsize comes in at about 296 grams and D9. If 
I can swing that at 75, so can you. It's worth 25 to 30 yards beyond what I get 
with a 45" driver and I seldom miss a fairway with it. (Of course, I'm seldom 
over 260 yards with it anymore.) I've made 47" drivers at D4 for some senior 
women...plenty of components around to get a driver in the low D's if you want 
one there. 

For the Rescues (if .370 and low price is needed), take a look at Monarch 
Golf's Neon hybrid shafts. On my NF4, I get the about the same flex numbers as 
a typical A...at most, a low R. Have one on a 4-iron hybrid at 1" overlength 
and it plays, looks and feels great. Seems like a very good shaft for $9.80, or 
something like that. 

Wanted to make a set with which I could make better contact with the ball 
on our dead dry, flat bermuda this time of year, so just made a normal length 
3-7 set of Hireko's XP905 hybrids to go with the set of XP905 Pro irons I 
sometimes used. Tried some of Unitech's $8 Prestige 75 A-flex iron shafts in 
these, matched on FLO to my favorite set's shafts from Tour Golf (TSLW 300 
sheet wrapped A's no longer available). The Prestige shafts weren't the most 
consistent that I've had, but matched up OK and seem to play very well at the 
range...second time out with them tomorrow. Ugly gray with yellow graphics, 
though. :-)

Bernie
bl...@charter.net 

- Original Message - 
  From: Tom Flanagan 
  To: shoptalk 
  Sent: Sunday, March 22, 2009 6:07 PM
  Subject: RE: ShopTalk: Long driver


  I looked at the full force shaft - it's 49 gram uncut. Hell, 

Re: ShopTalk: Long driver

[Bernie Baymiller]

Tom,

For some strange reason, all your e-mails are going directly to my Deleted 
Items. Don't know why, because you aren't on my blocked sender list. All the 
other in-coming Shoptalk e-mail goes to my Shoptalk folder in my Inbox.

Bernie
bl...@charter.net 
  - Original Message - 
  From: Tom Flanagan 
  To: shoptalk 
  Sent: Monday, March 23, 2009 1:44 PM
  Subject: RE: ShopTalk: Long driver


  Howdy Bub;


  I built about a dozen versions of long drivers since you started this topic - 
 how long ago? And before, too. But "before" I was using steel shafts at 44.5" 
on wood heads. I had one laminated head in which i drilled a honeycomb under 
the sold plate to remove weight. I never got it to a usable SW except for if 
King Kong was swinging it. 


  That aside, I've built drivers to 48" and down. Found that the most 
comfortable for me was at about 46" max. My choppy lurch didn't accommodate the 
longer or better timed swing. I simply could not hit them. The last one I made 
was a "Bangenstein" HiLoft on a Penley something. 47". Couldn't hit it at all. 
Sold it to a guy who killed it. So I've been reluctant to go to the extra long 
driver. 


  And I was reluctant to hit the Cleveland, too, as i mentioned, based upon 
prior experience. For what ever reason - age, slower swing, more sweep than 
hit, don't know - I killed it. 46.5" super light worked for me. So in answer to 
your question "Why mess around with the short clubs . . . etc", I guess it's 
because this particular one worked. I don't intend to buy one - yet, even 
though the heavily discounted price comes close to what I'd eventually end up 
paying to build one. 


  And this may seem scurrilous to all here, but frankly, I'm getting tired of 
screwing around with building clubs. After 50 years of it I'm thinking I'll 
pretty much stick with regripping, bending and reshafting. I have too damn many 
"experiments" in my pile of stuff as it is. Gotta get rid of them


  Junior golf, here I come. 


  TFlan


--
  From: bl...@charter.net
  To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com
  Subject: Re: ShopTalk: Long driver
  Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2009 22:11:41 -0400


  Tom,

  Why mess around with the short clubs when you can go to 48" club length? A 
193 gram BOM plugged to 1½" bore depth with a 58 gram Pure Energy A (about 55 
trimmed) and 43 gram Winn Excel midsize comes in at about 296 grams and D9. If 
I can swing that at 75, so can you. It's worth 25 to 30 yards beyond what I get 
with a 45" driver and I seldom miss a fairway with it. (Of course, I'm seldom 
over 260 yards with it anymore.) I've made 47" drivers at D4 for some senior 
women...plenty of components around to get a driver in the low D's if you want 
one there. 

  For the Rescues (if .370 and low price is needed), take a look at Monarch 
Golf's Neon hybrid shafts. On my NF4, I get the about the same flex numbers as 
a typical A...at most, a low R. Have one on a 4-iron hybrid at 1" overlength 
and it plays, looks and feels great. Seems like a very good shaft for $9.80, or 
something like that. 

  Wanted to make a set with which I could make better contact with the ball on 
our dead dry, flat bermuda this time of year, so just made a normal length 3-7 
set of Hireko's XP905 hybrids to go with the set of XP905 Pro irons I sometimes 
used. Tried some of Unitech's $8 Prestige 75 A-flex iron shafts in these, 
matched on FLO to my favorite set's shafts from Tour Golf (TSLW 300 sheet 
wrapped A's no longer available). The Prestige shafts weren't the most 
consistent that I've had, but matched up OK and seem to play very well at the 
range...second time out with them tomorrow. Ugly gray with yellow graphics, 
though. :-)

  Bernie
  bl...@charter.net 

  - Original Message - 
From: Tom Flanagan 
To: shoptalk 
Sent: Sunday, March 22, 2009 6:07 PM
Subject: RE: ShopTalk: Long driver


I looked at the full force shaft - it's 49 gram uncut. Hell, I have some 50 
and 55 gram shafts here. That 40 gram from Cleveland is actually 40 gm uncut, a 
weight I find amazing. The head is a redesigned Launcher made specifically for 
the Asian (Japanese) market. The club's been marketed there for a few months 
and is selling like crazy. So they (Cleveland) is trying the U.S. market. The 
club comes in one style only, 46.5", 12 deg, 40 gram, A flex. If it goes here 
they'll start offering different lofts. That's according to the Cleveland rep. 
The club isn't in the online catalog yet.  


I have a 12 deg Cobra head on a 55 gram shaft now, at 45". It's D4. I could 
plug it to 46.5" and add nine SW points, then reduce that with a jumbo 50 - 54 
gram grip, but it's still going to be in the E range. 


Guess I'll wait a while to see what comes down the pike. 


One thing I am looking for is a set of 3 A flex light weight shafts for 
Taylor Rescues. I saw some Graftechs for about $14.00 online.


 Got a guy w

Re: ShopTalk: Long driver

[Bernie Baymiller]

Tom,

Why mess around with the short clubs when you can go to 48" club length? A 193 
gram BOM plugged to 1½" bore depth with a 58 gram Pure Energy A (about 55 
trimmed) and 43 gram Winn Excel midsize comes in at about 296 grams and D9. If 
I can swing that at 75, so can you. It's worth 25 to 30 yards beyond what I get 
with a 45" driver and I seldom miss a fairway with it. (Of course, I'm seldom 
over 260 yards with it anymore.) I've made 47" drivers at D4 for some senior 
women...plenty of components around to get a driver in the low D's if you want 
one there. 

For the Rescues (if .370 and low price is needed), take a look at Monarch 
Golf's Neon hybrid shafts. On my NF4, I get the about the same flex numbers as 
a typical A...at most, a low R. Have one on a 4-iron hybrid at 1" overlength 
and it plays, looks and feels great. Seems like a very good shaft for $9.80, or 
something like that. 

Wanted to make a set with which I could make better contact with the ball on 
our dead dry, flat bermuda this time of year, so just made a normal length 3-7 
set of Hireko's XP905 hybrids to go with the set of XP905 Pro irons I sometimes 
used. Tried some of Unitech's $8 Prestige 75 A-flex iron shafts in these, 
matched on FLO to my favorite set's shafts from Tour Golf (TSLW 300 sheet 
wrapped A's no longer available). The Prestige shafts weren't the most 
consistent that I've had, but matched up OK and seem to play very well at the 
range...second time out with them tomorrow. Ugly gray with yellow graphics, 
though. :-)

Bernie
bl...@charter.net 

- Original Message - 
  From: Tom Flanagan 
  To: shoptalk 
  Sent: Sunday, March 22, 2009 6:07 PM
  Subject: RE: ShopTalk: Long driver


  I looked at the full force shaft - it's 49 gram uncut. Hell, I have some 50 
and 55 gram shafts here. That 40 gram from Cleveland is actually 40 gm uncut, a 
weight I find amazing. The head is a redesigned Launcher made specifically for 
the Asian (Japanese) market. The club's been marketed there for a few months 
and is selling like crazy. So they (Cleveland) is trying the U.S. market. The 
club comes in one style only, 46.5", 12 deg, 40 gram, A flex. If it goes here 
they'll start offering different lofts. That's according to the Cleveland rep. 
The club isn't in the online catalog yet. 


  I have a 12 deg Cobra head on a 55 gram shaft now, at 45". It's D4. I could 
plug it to 46.5" and add nine SW points, then reduce that with a jumbo 50 - 54 
gram grip, but it's still going to be in the E range. 


  Guess I'll wait a while to see what comes down the pike. 


  One thing I am looking for is a set of 3 A flex light weight shafts for 
Taylor Rescues. I saw some Graftechs for about $14.00 online.


   Got a guy who has 3,4,5 Rescues with S flexes in them. He wants to go to A 
flex based on clubs he hit on demo day. I haven't measured the O.D. of the tips 
yet so I'm not sure if they're .370's. I suspect they are though. 


  TFlan

--
  From: vectorgo...@aol.com
  Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2009 17:17:39 -0400
  Subject: Re: ShopTalk: Long driver
  To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com


  Greetings TFlan,
  How about a nice component head with the 3 wt screws, and then remove them, 
http://thegolfcoastonline.com/item.asp?cID=0&PID=644
  and pair that up with a Fierce Full Force shaft, 
  http://thegolfcoastonline.com/Fierce_Full_Force.asp
  or Bang shaft, 
  http://thegolfcoastonline.com/item.asp?cID=58&PID=1041
  I even know a guy that could probably get you wholesale pricing on those 
components :-)
  David

  In a message dated 3/22/2009 1:47:31 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, 
tflans...@hotmail.com writes:
Naturally I started looking for components  - 40 gram shafts and 180 deg 
heads. Couldn't find any. So back to the pro. "How much for that driver?" 
$300.00 but for you $250, no tax, no shipping. If you want one get it now cuz 
there's very limited stock. Ugh! A dilemma. 


Great, surprising club though. 


TFlan


--
  A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps!


--
  Express your personality in color! Preview and select themes for Hotmail®. 
See how. 

Re: ShopTalk: What a winter

[Bernie Baymiller]

Ha! The Lord is lookin' out for you, you old fart. No snow shovelin' to save 
your old heart. How's that for a rhyming intro. :-) Be careful about invoking 
snow on the Republicans...There's quite a few of them all around me. :-)

Well, I was disappointed in the snow amount in the Smokies. LeConte didn't get 
near the 20" they predicted, but the recorded temp was -22°F with a wind chill 
of -60°F. Think the newspaper said it was a 40 mph breeze up there. Whew! Glad 
I was down here, even though it was coldest night of the year so far...13°F 
when I got up at 7AM this morning. Supposed to be 60° in Spartanburg, SC 
tomorrow and I'm playing golf with my son Tim after a free lunch at 
Grandparents Day at grandson Henry's school.

Dem in deep snow
bl...@charter.net 
  - Original Message - 
  From: Bill C Swingler 
  To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com 
  Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2009 2:51 PM
  Subject: Re: ShopTalk: What a winter


  Bernie,

  I'm laughing my ass off!  You received 2" in TN and Manheim Twp. and 
Lancaster, PA your old stomping grounds got 12" (yes, twelve!) and Columbia, 
the Gem of the Ocean 10 mile to the West received (0), nothing, zip.  There was 
a band of snow about 5 miles wide went right up route # 501 and dumped 12" of 
the white crap all over them.  Serves those damn Republicans right!
- Original Message - 
From: Bernie Baymiller 
To: Shoptalk 
Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2009 8:40 PM
Subject: ShopTalk: What a winter


Ron,

Oh man, we had two inches of snow in the Tennesse Valley (about 850' 
elevation here) Sunday and Monday. With temps in the teens-to-30s, I haven't 
played golf all week. It's been a bummer. Still some snow on half the green 
behind my house. Terrible winter...that was our second snow. :-) The first snow 
was about an inch...melted the next day. The Golf Operations Director even 
extended golf rounds coupon sales another month because there has been so 
little play. 

Still, an hour from here on mile-high Mt. LeConte (6,250') in the Great 
Smoky Mountains Nat. Park, they're forcasting 20" tonight. Was tough hiking to 
the top of LeConte in 6" snow on the Alum Cave trail when I was younger. Was 
beautiful up there, though. Wind howling and blasting powder snow on the Fraser 
fir trees...looked like sombody frosted them with shaving cream...maybe -20° 
with wind chill up there that day. Sat under the lodge deck (lodge closed in 
winter) with a wide-mouth thermos filled with hot soup, but it would freeze to 
the spoon before I could eat it. So, had to drink the soup out of the bottle. 
Would never try it in 20"...long drop where the trail runs along some cliffs 
and spring water freezes under the snow.

Gatlinburg's ski slope tram will be running non-stop tomorrow. But, we're 
only a couple days from a temporary Spring. Snow should be gone tomorrow. 
Friday is supposed to be near 60° again and Saturday a bit warmer. Gotta loosen 
up for Friday afternoon.

Bernie
bl...@charter.net 
  - Original Message - 
  From: Ron Kellison 
  To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com 
  Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2009 6:00 PM
  Subject: Re: ShopTalk: EI 70 Tour "S"


  I think I may have one or two somewhere in the shop.  I'll look around 
tonight and get back to the OP. 


  Regards,


  Ron


  BTW, we've had almost 7' of snow so far this winter, and the snow cover 
is presently 24".  Only 3 more months until Spring!






  On 4-Feb-09, at 5:20 PM, Chris Stricker wrote:


I feel bad for the OP.  Man, all he wanted was to know where to find an 
unused EI70!  Sadly, I don't have the on topic answer.

ShopTalk: What a winter

[Bernie Baymiller]

Ron,

Oh man, we had two inches of snow in the Tennesse Valley (about 850' elevation 
here) Sunday and Monday. With temps in the teens-to-30s, I haven't played golf 
all week. It's been a bummer. Still some snow on half the green behind my 
house. Terrible winter...that was our second snow. :-) The first snow was about 
an inch...melted the next day. The Golf Operations Director even extended golf 
rounds coupon sales another month because there has been so little play. 

Still, an hour from here on mile-high Mt. LeConte (6,250') in the Great Smoky 
Mountains Nat. Park, they're forcasting 20" tonight. Was tough hiking to the 
top of LeConte in 6" snow on the Alum Cave trail when I was younger. Was 
beautiful up there, though. Wind howling and blasting powder snow on the Fraser 
fir trees...looked like sombody frosted them with shaving cream...maybe -20° 
with wind chill up there that day. Sat under the lodge deck (lodge closed in 
winter) with a wide-mouth thermos filled with hot soup, but it would freeze to 
the spoon before I could eat it. So, had to drink the soup out of the bottle. 
Would never try it in 20"...long drop where the trail runs along some cliffs 
and spring water freezes under the snow.

Gatlinburg's ski slope tram will be running non-stop tomorrow. But, we're only 
a couple days from a temporary Spring. Snow should be gone tomorrow. Friday is 
supposed to be near 60° again and Saturday a bit warmer. Gotta loosen up for 
Friday afternoon.

Bernie
bl...@charter.net 
  - Original Message - 
  From: Ron Kellison 
  To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com 
  Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2009 6:00 PM
  Subject: Re: ShopTalk: EI 70 Tour "S"


  I think I may have one or two somewhere in the shop.  I'll look around 
tonight and get back to the OP. 


  Regards,


  Ron


  BTW, we've had almost 7' of snow so far this winter, and the snow cover is 
presently 24".  Only 3 more months until Spring!






  On 4-Feb-09, at 5:20 PM, Chris Stricker wrote:


I feel bad for the OP.  Man, all he wanted was to know where to find an 
unused EI70!  Sadly, I don't have the on topic answer.

Re: ShopTalk: An open question

[Bernie Baymiller]

David,

Enjoy the trip and hope you have a good show. I have always wanted to attend, 
but have a tough time getting away this time of year. What's the length of 
those shafts?Components as light as possible?  Well, components within certain 
lighter parameters...the heads I've tried under 190 grams seemed to lack a lot 
of pop. But, a 47", 49 gram shaft with a high bend point would get my 
attention. Since I am a fan of almost all light shafts, hope they do well for 
you whatever the length and price... though it would be nice if they were under 
$30. :-)

Bernie
bl...@charter.net 
  - Original Message - 
  From: vectorgo...@aol.com 
  To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com 
  Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2009 9:53 PM
  Subject: Re: ShopTalk: An open question


  Snip

  In a message dated 1/27/2009 4:00:23 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, 
bl...@charter.net writes:
David,

What shaft? And whose swing.
  Well that is of course the correct question.
  A new shaft company I have been working with will be debuting 2 new shaft 
models in Orlando, one of which is a 49 gram model.
  No booth, just demo clubs at the Grafalloy booth and me walking around with 
some samples.
  I thought of you because you have said over the years that you are trying to 
get the various components as light as possible.
  I will have all the details, specs and pricing when I get back, but I'm off 
line mostly until then.
  Gotta go, still have to pack and stuff.
  David


--
  A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps!

Re: ShopTalk: An open question

[Bernie Baymiller]

David,

Per your write-up on the Graman UL series

>Like all Graman shafts in the Ultimate G Series, also known as the UL Series 
>they are cpm certified to within a 1 cpm tolerance. This means that they are 
>so round that no matter what position they are aligned to in the club, the 
>stiffness will not vary more than 1 cycle per minute, roughly the equivalent 
>of 1/10 of a flex. I don't know of another shaft in the world that can make 
>that claim!



Graman shafts used to be my favorite go-tos for just about anything in the 
1990s. The $18 HL-40 and $30 HL-50 53 gram shafts played better for my senior 
crowd than anything else I could find. I was getting HL-40R shafts at 56-58 
grams and they were perfect Type 2s...simple to align, had great feel and a lot 
of zip...a great shaft for seniors, for fairway woods and women's drivers. 
Then, Graman changed to the TP-440 and claimed it was the same as the HL-40. It 
wasn't. Weight was more variable...59 to 65 grams and most of my shafts began 
to have bent tips. I quit using them and went to less expensive, better made 
proprietary Tour Series sheet-wrapped shafts from Tour Golf (before the 
filament wound line-up). These were $18-$24, mostly dead straight Type 2 shafts 
and too my surprise had spine-aligned graphics. The TSUL was a very low torque 
54 gram wood shaft for around $20 and I'm still playing it on my 45" 13° Cy LCG 
(a Mars high MOI fairway wood design ahead of its time). When Graman introduced 
the UL440, I participated in the "buy 2 get one free" for about $60 promo and 
liked the shafts better than the TP440s, but the weight was still more variable 
than SK Fiber's PE shafts, the tips were still slightly bent and the price was 
higher. There aren't that many 48" shafts anymore, so I try one every now and 
then to see if Graman has improved them...I just built a driver last week with 
a Graman Chrome UL440 that had the same problems. Weight was not to spec and 
tip was slightly bent. I couldn't find a good FLO on that shaft. Frankly, all 
the SK Fiber Pure Energy and Lite Revolution 48" shafts that I've seen are far 
more consistent (as well as build easier and play better for me) than the 
Graman UL440. And, the UL Series is way over priced, IMO. 



Bernie
bl...@charter.net 

  - Original Message - 
  From: vectorgo...@aol.com 
  To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com 
  Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2009 6:04 PM
  Subject: Re: ShopTalk: An open question


  Hi Richard,
  If you want to see what I have said about the UL 640 you can have a look here;
  http://thegolfcoastonline.com/item.asp?cID=58&PID=485
  David

  In a message dated 1/27/2009 2:57:53 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, 
richardber...@sbcglobal.net writes:
Thanks Robert and Ted...

You've more or less confirmed what I suspected...I'm toying with the 
idea of one of those driver heads with weight ports and then replacing 
the weights with lighter ones to bring the head weight down to around 
192-195 or even 190 gms. If I still find the club too unwieldy I'll cut 
it down...

I'm planning not to tip it at all as the rest of my clubs have R-flex 
shafts in them, but I'm really guessing here as I have no knowledge of 
how this shaft performs. If anyone has any other opinions on this, I'd 
love to hear them.

By the way, I think this list (blog?) is terrific...it's made me want to 
put some new things in my bag...

Thanks,
Richard Berger
Los Angeles


--
  A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps!

Re: ShopTalk: An open question

[Bernie Baymiller]

David,

What shaft? And whose swing. For instance, on a 48" driver, the Aldila Longwood 
50/50 R was a pretty stiff R to me...there was only about 2½" of .335 and then 
the shaft widened out. Still, it sure could be broken easily when dropped on 
the cart path or slammed on the ground. :-) 

Do you have a 49 gram shaft at 47" or more length in a R or S? I'd sure like to 
try it if it's under $40. For a Regular of Stiff shaft player, I'd tend to 
think a 50-something gram shaft would be a better choice. I have good feel for 
the head position during my swing if the swingweight is around D9-E0. I was 
terribly wild with a D0 at 46" because I had no feel for the head loading in 
transition...and I didn't have a young pro's consistency to depend on. When I 
lurched a little or went a little off plane with a high swingweight club, I 
could feel what was happening and sort of intuitively make a slight correction. 
True, I'm not as good at that now as I was 10 years ago.

I remember learning a trick kind of by mistake fitting a driver to a powerful 
early sixties guy with a very over-the-top kind of swing. He had a 45" Cobra 
Stiff and was hitting it about 260-270 yards. Had an 11 handicap when he tried 
my 195 gram Integra Super 450 (original) on a SKF PE-A tipped an inch. His main 
problem was too many OBs left. A little too much over-the-top and he had 
another DB...two or three a round because he was so long...and long and crooked 
is not good. He was pounding my high A-flex straight at the range and asked me 
to build him one. An A-flex for an obviously S or X kind of swinger? On the 
golf course with that club, he was suddenly hitting the ball 280-290 yards 
straight and playing near-par golf. Almost no OBs. I was wondering how he could 
do this with an A-flex shaft and his high swing speed, so I watched him closely 
when we played together. He still had his over-the-top swing, but that soft 
shaft was lagging just enough so it hit the ball straight down the middle, 
instead of long, left hooks. He was a 4-handicap in two months. That's why I as 
what shaft and whose swing. Who knows? A 49 gram shaft might do as much for me. 
:-)

Bernie
bl...@charter.net 

- Original Message - 
  From: vectorgo...@aol.com 
  To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com 
  Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2009 5:55 PM
  Subject: Re: ShopTalk: An open question


  Snip

  Hi Bernie,
  What would you think of a 49 gram shaft?
  David

  In a message dated 1/27/2009 2:41:29 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, 
bl...@charter.net writes:
On the shaft...beware of Graman's weight spec...it seems to be before the 
paint job. My ULs are running about 5 grams more than listed...and that 
makes a difference. At 56 grams, though, that would be a good weight. I've 
found that if you can keep the total weight under 300 grams, the club is as 
easy to swing and control as any shorter driver. A recent study using 
scratch players proved a 48" club can be as accurate as any shorter length 
driver and hits the ball farther. The same flex you use on the shorter 
driver will probably work OK, at least it does for me. A high bend point 
shaft is preferable, I think.

If the grip is light, the total weight will be less. Something in the low 
40 
gram range works well and there are plenty to choose from.

Bernie
bl...@charter.net



--
  A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps!

Re: ShopTalk: An open question

[Bernie Baymiller]

Richard,

I've been building and playing 48" drivers (mostly for seniors) since 1996. 
I found out early that there is a swingweight limit for every player who 
uses one for 18 holes on the golf course. For instance, at age 63, I learned 
how to hit a 48-incher at E6. I hit it great at the range, but could only 
get about 15 holes before my wrist and arms tired and I put one on someone's 
housetop to right, or chunked a worm-burner. When I got the S/W down to E2, 
I could make it all the way around with no problem. A 48" driver with a 195 
gram Chicago 966SD, 57 gram Aldila Longwood 50/50R and 43 gram Winn Classic 
at E0 got me to 260-270 yards at 65 years, was very accurate for me and 
reduced my handicap to a 1.5 GHIN index that year (1999). At 74 years old, 
I'm now playing a BOM/ Pure Energy A/Winn Excel RF midsize combo at 48" with 
a S/W of D9 and can still get 250 out of it...some days more.


Go with a head no heavier than 195 grams...a Bang-O-Matic 460cc runs about 
193-196 and plays very well. Also, upright lies seem to be very popular 
right now with the new shallower faced, high MOI heads...but they don't work 
well at all on a 48" club. Find a big round head, like the BOM, so a lie 
about 58° doesn't make much difference. A 55° lie would be even better. With 
a low loft, like 10.5°, toe-up impact doesn't change direction enough to 
matter.


On the shaft...beware of Graman's weight spec...it seems to be before the 
paint job. My ULs are running about 5 grams more than listed...and that 
makes a difference. At 56 grams, though, that would be a good weight. I've 
found that if you can keep the total weight under 300 grams, the club is as 
easy to swing and control as any shorter driver. A recent study using 
scratch players proved a 48" club can be as accurate as any shorter length 
driver and hits the ball farther. The same flex you use on the shorter 
driver will probably work OK, at least it does for me. A high bend point 
shaft is preferable, I think.


If the grip is light, the total weight will be less. Something in the low 40 
gram range works well and there are plenty to choose from.


Bernie
bl...@charter.net


- Original Message - 
From: "Richard Berger" 

To: 
Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2009 2:16 PM
Subject: Re: ShopTalk: An open question


In the never-ending quest for just a few more yards, I'm think about going 
to a 48" Driver.

Driver head would be 200 gms (or possibly less if they can pull one)
Shaft I'm thinking of is a Graman 640 (51 Gms)

My current specs -
7 handicap...more of a "swinger", not a "hitter"
Current driver - 200 gm head, Grafalloy Pro-Launch 55 @ 46"  S-flex
I hit this driver 250 - 270 with a good swing.

Been a clubmaker about 20 years, but more of a hobby...my question...

Has anyone had any experience with the Graman shaft, and would you think
I should use the R- flex, or the S- flex because of the length? Graman 
said to
go with the R, but I'm not sure if they understood that I'm going to 48" 
because
they mentioned nothing about tipping it, and it doesn't make sense that 
you
wouldn't have to tip more than normal (but could you then achieve the 
length?)


This one has me a little stumped...does anyone have any opinions?

Thanks so much,
Richard Berger
Los Angeles
--
Shoptalk ** Sponsored by the new Aldila Voodoo.
Learn more at http://aldilavoodoo.com/




--
Shoptalk ** Sponsored by the new Aldila Voodoo.
Learn more at http://aldilavoodoo.com/

Re: ShopTalk: Performance benefits of long drivers

[Bernie Baymiller]

Robert,

My 48-inch driver in cart bag just barely fits across the back of my '04 Quest 
minivan. A friend's STS Caddie trunk is OK, too. Won't fit across the trunk of 
wife's '06 Max and a lot of other vehicles unless driver is out of the bag and 
angled. Good luck. :-)

Bernie
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  - Original Message - 
  From: Robert Devino 
  To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com 
  Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 1:49 AM
  Subject: Re: ShopTalk: Performance benefits of long drivers


  Bernie,

  I'll have to try it cause like I said in the rest of my post we are getting 
pretty good results from stuff that isn't supposed to work !  But I don't know 
if a 48" driver will fit in my SUV???   LOL!

   
  Sincerely,
  Robert Devino
  14252 Delano St.
  Van Nuys, Ca. 91401
  (818) 770-0475 





------
  From: Bernie Baymiller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com
  Sent: Tuesday, December 9, 2008 8:43:46 PM
  Subject: Re: ShopTalk: Performance benefits of long drivers


  Robert, 

  I have been "testing" long drivers in senior hands since 1995. For those with 
a 16 handicap or less and a somewhat consistent swing, it takes about 2 hours 
or less with just a bit of coaching on the range to learn to hit a 48" driver 
as accurately and farther than a shorter driver. It takes about 2 more months 
of playing it to gain confidence in the club. After that, it's easy for most 
seniors to hit a 48" driver as accurately as a shorter one. Isn't thirty more 
yards on a drive worth a bit of practice?

  Unfortunately, most players listen to "nay-sayers" and don't stick with it. 
But, I had one 60-something guy go from an 11 handicap to a 4 in just two 
months with a long driver because he stuck with learning to hit it on 
"auto-pilot." I've also had senior women with very little wrist release go from 
a light 45" men's driver to a 48" driver in two swings and gain 35 
yards...150-185. I couldn't believe a 72 year-old woman, who did have a very 
good and consistent 70 mph "arm swing" would even get an E0 swingweight club 
square. But, she could because it seems to be much easier to time an arm swing 
with longer lengths. The problem with long driver accuracy seems to stem from 
not having the stamina to get a high swingweight club accelerating from wrist 
release fast enough to get the head square at impact. Learn a little smoother 
swing with slightly earlier release and good acceleration to impact and it 
works. The change isn't all that great...only 3" more than standard...no more 
than from a  4-iron to a PW. And, with a lower loft, the driver lie angle isn't 
as important to direction. If a senior (or anyone) needs more distance on 
his/her drives to get more GIR, lengthening and lightening the driver is a good 
way to do it...IMO. 

  Another benefit...a long, high swingweight driver is quite a good swing 
trainer. It requires good balance, a smoother, slightly slower take-away and 
smooth transition to the down-swing. And, it strengthens the forearm and wrist 
muscles in time...which, I suppose, increases swing speed a bit, too. It did 
for me.

  Bernie
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
You can put any club in a 1 handicapers hand and they will hit it just fine 
in just a few swings.  They might not hit it as well as a well fitted club  but 
they will adjust their swing  and hit it pretty good.  Put that long driver in 
the average golfers hand and they will loose accuracy for sure.  It's just 
plain harder for them to get the club around and hit the center of the face.  
If you doubt this gt some of your buddys together and some imact tape and go 
test it out.

Re: ShopTalk: Performance benefits of long drivers

[Bernie Baymiller]

Robert, 

I have been "testing" long drivers in senior hands since 1995. For those with a 
16 handicap or less and a somewhat consistent swing, it takes about 2 hours or 
less with just a bit of coaching on the range to learn to hit a 48" driver as 
accurately and farther than a shorter driver. It takes about 2 more months of 
playing it to gain confidence in the club. After that, it's easy for most 
seniors to hit a 48" driver as accurately as a shorter one. Isn't thirty more 
yards on a drive worth a bit of practice?

Unfortunately, most players listen to "nay-sayers" and don't stick with it. 
But, I had one 60-something guy go from an 11 handicap to a 4 in just two 
months with a long driver because he stuck with learning to hit it on 
"auto-pilot." I've also had senior women with very little wrist release go from 
a light 45" men's driver to a 48" driver in two swings and gain 35 
yards...150-185. I couldn't believe a 72 year-old woman, who did have a very 
good and consistent 70 mph "arm swing" would even get an E0 swingweight club 
square. But, she could because it seems to be much easier to time an arm swing 
with longer lengths. The problem with long driver accuracy seems to stem from 
not having the stamina to get a high swingweight club accelerating from wrist 
release fast enough to get the head square at impact. Learn a little smoother 
swing with slightly earlier release and good acceleration to impact and it 
works. The change isn't all that great...only 3" more than standard...no more 
than from a  4-iron to a PW. And, with a lower loft, the driver lie angle isn't 
as important to direction. If a senior (or anyone) needs more distance on 
his/her drives to get more GIR, lengthening and lightening the driver is a good 
way to do it...IMO. 

Another benefit...a long, high swingweight driver is quite a good swing 
trainer. It requires good balance, a smoother, slightly slower take-away and 
smooth transition to the down-swing. And, it strengthens the forearm and wrist 
muscles in time...which, I suppose, increases swing speed a bit, too. It did 
for me.

Bernie
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  You can put any club in a 1 handicapers hand and they will hit it just fine 
in just a few swings.  They might not hit it as well as a well fitted club  but 
they will adjust their swing  and hit it pretty good.  Put that long driver in 
the average golfers hand and they will loose accuracy for sure.  It's just 
plain harder for them to get the club around and hit the center of the face.  
If you doubt this gt some of your buddys together and some imact tape and go 
test it out.

Re: ShopTalk: Performance benefits of long drivers

[Bernie Baymiller]

Paul,

Can't get to your article and would like a copy if possible. Don't know what it 
will say, but here're my thoughts on long drivers:

Probably any younger player who can hit a driver 260 yards with a 45" driver 
doesn't need to increase club length. But, I've been building long drivers for 
seniors (and some younger guys) to use on the golf course since 1994 and have 
found there are several benefits to using 48-inchers for seniors...IF the 
drivers are built to be as light as a normal length driver (under 300 grams), 
have the correct flex for the player's swing type and have a swingweight the 
user has the strength to hande for 18 holes (that's E2 for me, and I like D9-E0 
better). On average for seniors, I've found 8-10 yards more  per extra inch is 
a typical gain for senior men (about 30 more yards at 48" for me than at 45") 
and 10-15 yards per extra inch above 43"-44" club length for senior women 
(about 35 yards typically for senior women with 46" to 48" club length 
depending on amount of wrist release and timing). I found I was (and still am) 
far more accurate with the higher swingweight at 48" club length than I ever 
was (and still am) at 44"-45" club length. I feel the head position better. Two 
years ago, after a left knee replacement, I experimented with a 45" driver vs. 
my 48" long driver for 6 rounds (we have 3 championship courses here) 
alternating drivers on the same courses. The long driver and higher S/W does 
put a bit more stress on the left knee. The long driver rounds were at least 3 
shots better on every course...added distance meant shorter iron second shots 
and more GIR for me. I stuck with the long driver.

But a good long driver requires a lower lie and rounder head than the high MOI 
square shapes with upright lies being hyped today (59°-61° depending on 
model...the Quad I've tried is 60° and no good at all in long lengths with its 
toe-up, shallower face...very difficult to hit consistently square at 47"- 48" 
even with preferred shaft alignment NBP at 9:00). I'm presently (and have been) 
playing a BOM 460cc on an SKF PE-A with Winn Excel mid at 296 grams and D9 S/W. 
My swing speed is about 85-90 with 45" driver (haven't checked my speed with 
48" driver lately) and get about 240-250 yards consistently with the long 
driver with a decent swing, occasionally to 265 yards with best timing and 
absolutely flush. Got 270 yards in 1999 at 65 years of age, but that distance 
is difficult to retain at 74 years. Can still shoot in mid to high 70s about 
1/3 of my rounds (8 handicap at 120 slope) thanks to the long driver. 

Another comment about today's driver and wood heads:

I just don't think today's more upright lies around 60° fit the average senior 
(or any average size player) at all. Even at normal 45" club lengths for the 
player who is about 5'8" to 5'10" tall, today's 60° driver lies will be toe-up 
at address. I'm 5' 9" and had to cut my Quad down to 44" in length to hit the 
ball consistently solid off the tee...it's now at least 30 yards shorter in 
distance than my BOM. And especially with fairway woods, a correct lie results 
in a lot more solid shots...no heel catching and turning the head shut when the 
swing is a bit less than perfect. About 10 years ago, I was able to find 
fairway woods with lies down to about 55° (2W) and smooth rocker soles...these 
heads were really easy to hit at longer lengths...my Cydonia LCG 2W is 45", my 
3W is 44", 5W is 43½" in length. They hit the ball farther and straighter off 
the deck than any newer clubs I've tried at all our demo days last summer 
(Cobra, Ping, Titleist, TM, etc). I must have built a hundred sets of Cydonia 
fairways for our seniors here in the '90s and most are still playing them. They 
were a great design...big, wide heads with high MOI eight years ago and even 
the 13° at 220cc and 33 mm face height is easy to get up off a level fairway at 
45" club length with a 55° lie. The 5W was 180cc and had a 57° lie...3° flatter 
than my recent Quadratic driver. Wish I could find some fairway wood heads like 
these Cys today. And, for that matter, a high MOI driver head with about a 53° 
lie for a longer club lengths. Anyone know of any heads like these?

Bernie
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  - Original Message - 
  From: Paul Glazier 
  To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com 
  Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 12:48 PM
  Subject: ShopTalk: Performance benefits of long drivers


  Hi guys,

   

  I recently came across this article - 
http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/content~content=a902510569~db=all~order=page - 
and I thought I'd offer it up for discussion as I know one or two of you feel 
quite passionately about the topic! As I am unable to attach a PDF copy of the 
full paper here (list server doesn't allow it), please email me back if you are 
interested and I will forward you a copy by return.

   

  I'd be interested in hearing you comments. On the face of it, the results 
seem to offer support for limiting g

Re: ShopTalk: Swingweight Vs. Waggleweight ?

[Bernie Baymiller]

Bob,

I wouldn't be surprised if there was something to it. My dad must have thought 
there was some inherent information in "waggling" a club. 

Don't know if there is any connection, but while dad was the Director of Golf 
Research at A.G. Spalding, Max Knobel, John Dickson and my dad patented a 
"Wagglemeter" machine "for testing the dynamic balance of golf clubs...", 
basically an MOI club matching machine. The patent was applied for on 
tommorrow's date (October 28) in 1940 and granted when the patent office 
finally got nearly through the war and caught up on May 23, 1944. It's Patent # 
2,349,736 if you can find it online. After dad died almost 10 years ago, I 
scanned a yellowed original from his files in PDF.  E-mail me if you want a 
copy, but it would probably be easier to read if you can find it online. I 
believe Max did most of the work designing the machine. Dad was a great 
believer in the waggle and always did it before any shot he made...played OK, 
too, with a 2 handicap into his 60s.

Bernie
[EMAIL PROTECTED]  



- Original Message - 
  From: Bob Barrette 
  To: shop talk shop ; Spine Talk 
  Sent: Monday, October 27, 2008 10:59 AM
  Subject: ShopTalk: Swingweight Vs. Waggleweight ?



 Hi All:
I ran across this today, and although I have not had time to read much 
of it, I thought some of you might want to check it out, to see if it has any 
merits, or just another crackpot idea!
link below. 
http://www.waggleweight.com

Regards,

Bob


golfbum70.com


Golf; a chain of misfortunes, shrouded by an occasional miracle, 
followed by adult beverages! 

Re: ShopTalk: reshaft of Titleist 907 D2

[Bernie Baymiller]

Tom,

Check out the SKF Pure Energy A-flex. I'm playing one in a 460cc Bang-O-Matic 
head plugged beyond 1½" depth at 48"  club length. Very well made, inexpensive 
shaft. 

Bernie
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  - Original Message - 
  From: Tom Janson 
  To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com 
  Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 9:00 AM
  Subject: Re: ShopTalk: reshaft of Titleist 907 D2


  The person I'm reshafting this for wants a low-torque shaft but not very 
'stiff'.  Wishon has one that I think will work.  I'm not going to insert it 
all the way.  I'll check the frequency of the shaft I'm removing to get me a 
starting point.  He likes them long too.  This ones going to be 46" and he's 
played some drivers up to 48".

  Tom



  - Original Message 
  From: Robert Devino <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com
  Sent: Tuesday, October 7, 2008 12:11:42 PM
  Subject: Re: ShopTalk: reshaft of Titleist 907 D2


   I did a lot of bore through heads when I was building at HotStix in Arizona. 
 A regular shaft puller technique while heating both the hosel and the 
underside of the head works just fine.  Did a good number of blind bores too 
and didn't have any problems.  If you just drill out about 1 1/2 inches of the 
old shaft you number one don't have to redo the plug on the bottom of the head. 
and also you don't need to get a shaft especially designed for a bore through 
head.  to have the kick point in the right spot you need to have a shaft that 
has the extra tip length to account for the depth of the bore through.  That's 
why I always favored a blind bore technique. Titileist has those shafts made 
special for all their heads so they frequency correctly.  Using a standard 
shaft will probably not work out the way you want it to if you don't blind 
bore.  

   
  Sincerely,
  Robert Devino
  14252 Delano St.
  Van Nuys, Ca. 91401
  (818) 770-0475 




  - Original Message 
  From: Tom Janson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com
  Sent: Monday, October 6, 2008 7:30:31 PM
  Subject: ShopTalk: reshaft of Titleist 907 D2

  Hosel looks like it is a separate piece than the head.  Is there anything 
special I need to do to remove this shaft?

  Thanks,

  Tom Janson



  --
  Shoptalk ** Sponsored by the new Aldila Voodoo.
  Learn more at http://aldilavoodoo.com/

Re: ShopTalk: harrison 2.5 pro TI tip

[Bernie Baymiller]

Jeremy,

If you haven't already checked them out...

SK Fiber has 5 long drive shafts at 50" http://skfiber.com/specs.html

Graman has 3 long drive shafts at 52". 
http://www.clubmaker-online.com/graman.home.html

Bernie
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  - Original Message - 
  From: Jeremy Ingle 
  To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com 
  Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2008 12:51 PM
  Subject: ShopTalk: harrison 2.5 pro TI tip


  Has anyone got one of these i need it to reshaft a  customers broken one.

  the Pro 2.5 Ti Tip  Harrison  made was a 52" long drive shaft.  the specs are 
52 inches raw,  2.5 torque and comes in either an S/X combo flex or an X/XX 
combo with an high kick.

  Or what might be a good alternative  Harrison don't have anything.

  Regards 

-- 
Jeremy Ingle
SPI Consultants
613-590-1503 ext 227

NOTICE:  This email is confidential, privileged and intended for the exclusive 
use of the addressee(s).
Any other person is strictly prohibited from disclosing, distributing or 
reproducing it.
If you have received this email by mistake, please notify us by calling 
613-590-1503.

Re: ShopTalk: After PCS, what?

[Bernie Baymiller]

Dave,

Think you missed your acronym GCA? :-)

Bernie
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

- Original Message - 
From: "Dave Tutelman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: ; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, July 12, 2008 10:16 AM
Subject: ShopTalk: After PCS, what?



The PCS served some functions that will be missed:

(1) Accreditation
(2) Information dissemination and education (a magazine, the annual 
convention)

(3) Discounts for members
(4) Referrals (clubmaker finder for the public)
(5) Standardization

Anybody have any insight into what happens after PCS? Is there an 
organization that will pick these up?


The only ones I see today are "captive" by a component manufacturer: CGA 
(Golfsmith) and IPAC (KZG). There are obvious dangers to letting the 
professional society be an arm of a manufacturer. CGA seems to be doing a 
pretty good job of #1 (accreditation); it's not clear what IPAC will do in 
this area. #2, #3, and #4 are obviously limited under any captive 
organization. There are very obvious problems having a single manufacturer 
with the inside track in standardization.


Thoughts?
Am I missing something?

DaveT

Re: ShopTalk: Heavy Putter

[Bernie Baymiller]

My Hireko Bionik HP425 sets up and rolls the ball well at 32". It's not 
quite center-shafted and almost, but not quite, face balanced. Nice sight 
line on it. Discount Golf Broker has it for $17.95.


My Diamond Tour Inazone BL-2 belly/long putter is slightly lighter than spec 
at 476 grams. Shaft angle is steeper than HP425, about on my sternum (where 
I like it for long putter) at 45". It isn't face balanced and tends to swing 
slightly open for me if I don't hang on to it.


The best inexpensive putter head that I've used in a long time is a Tru 
Power Modus from Monark Golf at 365 grams and $14.50. I'm using it in a 
belly putter at 37" length. It has a very good yellow sight line on a matt 
black head, is face balanced and rolls the ball really well. Had 3 birds and 
several 6' to 8-footers with it today.


Bernie

- Original Message - 
From: "Dave Tutelman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: 
Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2008 5:39 PM
Subject: Re: ShopTalk: Heavy Putter



At 05:07 PM 7/2/2008, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I am looking for a putter head that is heavy.  400+ grams.  Anyone have 
any suggestions?  I'd like it to be straight shaft, if possible.


The Hireko catalog has several, in the price range of $16-$21. (I looked 
there first because Hireko now owns Dynacraft, and I have a few such heads 
left over from Dynacraft.)


Bionik 425 - 425g
Four Ball Blade II - 455g
Three Ball - 420g

All are stainless steel, take a straight shaft and have a 70-72 degree 
lie.
They are probably face-balanced as well, though I'm not sure about the 
Four Ball.


OTHER POSSIBILITIES:

(1) Diamond Tour Golf has a lot of heads at 390g. A tip weight could bring 
this up to 400g.


(2) There are lots of heads above 400g made for belly putters or long 
putters. Be prepared for more work and the possibility of failure with 
these. They are typically 78-80 degrees lie, and many things you might do 
to reduce the lie will undo the face balance. Worse still, most of those 
will leave the balance heel-down, which is somewhat unnatural.



I'd like 70 degree weather and blue skies too.


Sounds like this morning when I teed off at Hominy Hill. It was a lot 
warmer by the time we finished -- more like 80. Still blue skies.


Hope this helps,
DaveT

Re: ShopTalk: Long Drive Shaft Frequencies

[Bernie Baymiller]

Andre,

Whoops, wrong again...didn't look back at the chart before I answered you. 
Would guess the different cpm numbers for the two clamp lengths and tip weights 
are on a raw shaft, but don't really know. My head's still pretty stuffy after 
running a temperature with a sinus infection all last week. :-) Would guess the 
cpm driver numbers with the 198 gram tip weight are with the 5" clamp. Do know 
the cpm/inch difference in driver length is correct, though.

Bernie
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 


  - Original Message ----- 
  From: Bernie Baymiller 
  To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com 
  Sent: Monday, March 03, 2008 11:10 AM
  Subject: Re: ShopTalk: Long Drive Shaft Frequencies


  Andre,

  I assume BC means butt clamp. Before I had my Neufinders, I didn't have a 
frequency meter and used this chart for "starting points"...it was more 
prominent on their website then. (I had to really hunt to see if it was still 
there.) I talked to them about the numbers back then, maybe 5 years ago, but 
can't remember for sure what they said about them. Think the different butt 
clamps with different tip weights come out to the same cpm number. Guess 
someone with a frequency meter could confirm that.

  I can confirm the flex difference on my NF4 now, though. A PE-A on my NF4 
reads 2.76kg raw and 2.94kg tipped 1". In some e-mail NF4 discussion, .03 kg on 
a calibrated NF4 was said to be about 1 cpm (at least that's what I wrote 
down). That would make an inch about 6 cpm...just what's on the chart.

  Bernie
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 


- Original Message - 
From: André Cantin 
To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com 
Sent: Monday, March 03, 2008 9:05 AM
Subject: Re: ShopTalk: Long Drive Shaft Frequencies


Hi Bernard;)
On the link you provided. Does B/C mean butt clamp? And is SK fiber 
using 2 different weights for measuring butt frequency with 2 different 
clamping fixtures?
  WOODs 7" BC / 275g
 5" BC / 205g
     


A
  - Original Message - 
  From: Bernie Baymiller 
  To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com 
  Sent: Monday, March 03, 2008 8:33 AM
  Subject: Re: ShopTalk: Long Drive Shaft Frequencies


  Paul,

  Check out this SKFiber cpm chart. 
http://skfiberc.startlogic.com/wood-cpm-chart.html

  I play a 48" Bang-O-Matic "golf course" driver with a Pure Energy A-flex 
tip trimmed an inch...that's about 220 cpm. A few years ago, I played a 48" 
driver with S-flex at 236 cpm. You can see on the chart there's a 6 cpm drop 
for ever added inch of length. Those numbers would make a 48" driver at 254 cpm 
about a XX, I guess.

  Bernie
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Re: ShopTalk: Long Drive Shaft Frequencies

[Bernie Baymiller]

Andre,

I assume BC means butt clamp. Before I had my Neufinders, I didn't have a 
frequency meter and used this chart for "starting points"...it was more 
prominent on their website then. (I had to really hunt to see if it was still 
there.) I talked to them about the numbers back then, maybe 5 years ago, but 
can't remember for sure what they said about them. Think the different butt 
clamps with different tip weights come out to the same cpm number. Guess 
someone with a frequency meter could confirm that.

I can confirm the flex difference on my NF4 now, though. A PE-A on my NF4 reads 
2.76kg raw and 2.94kg tipped 1". In some e-mail NF4 discussion, .03 kg on a 
calibrated NF4 was said to be about 1 cpm (at least that's what I wrote down). 
That would make an inch about 6 cpm...just what's on the chart.

Bernie
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 


  - Original Message - 
  From: André Cantin 
  To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com 
  Sent: Monday, March 03, 2008 9:05 AM
  Subject: Re: ShopTalk: Long Drive Shaft Frequencies


  Hi Bernard;)
  On the link you provided. Does B/C mean butt clamp? And is SK fiber using 
2 different weights for measuring butt frequency with 2 different clamping 
fixtures?
WOODs 7" BC / 275g
   5" BC / 205g
   


  A
----- Original Message - 
From: Bernie Baymiller 
To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com 
Sent: Monday, March 03, 2008 8:33 AM
Subject: Re: ShopTalk: Long Drive Shaft Frequencies


Paul,

Check out this SKFiber cpm chart. 
http://skfiberc.startlogic.com/wood-cpm-chart.html

I play a 48" Bang-O-Matic "golf course" driver with a Pure Energy A-flex 
tip trimmed an inch...that's about 220 cpm. A few years ago, I played a 48" 
driver with S-flex at 236 cpm. You can see on the chart there's a 6 cpm drop 
for ever added inch of length. Those numbers would make a 48" driver at 254 cpm 
about a XX, I guess.

Bernie
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Re: ShopTalk: Long Drive Shaft Frequencies

[Bernie Baymiller]

Paul,

Check out this SKFiber cpm chart. 
http://skfiberc.startlogic.com/wood-cpm-chart.html

I play a 48" Bang-O-Matic "golf course" driver with a Pure Energy A-flex tip 
trimmed an inch...that's about 220 cpm. A few years ago, I played a 48" driver 
with S-flex at 236 cpm. You can see on the chart there's a 6 cpm drop for ever 
added inch of length. Those numbers would make a 48" driver at 254 cpm about a 
XX, I guess.

Bernie
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  - Original Message - 
  From: Paul Glazier 
  To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com 
  Sent: Monday, March 03, 2008 3:16 AM
  Subject: ShopTalk: Long Drive Shaft Frequencies


  Hi guys,

   

  I recently got my copy of Sean Fister's new book on long drive. There was 
some information contained in the 'Equipment' section that I found quite 
interesting. Sean states that the shaft frequencies of his 2005 WLDC winning 
drivers were 250 cpm and 251 cpm and that 'they're so stiff that the average 
guy couldn't even get them airborne' (p.127). However, in Jeff Summitt's manual 
'The Modern Guide to Shaft Fitting', a 250 cpm shaft comes out at little more 
than an A-flex or R-flex. The full shaft cpm ratings are as follows:

   

  2000 Shaft Frequency Averages for Graphite Shafts (tested at playing length 
43", shaft cut to 41.375"):

  A - 240 cpm

  R - 254 cpm

  S - 267 cpm

  X - 278 cpm

   

  My question is: Why are long drive shafts rated so highly (XX, XXX, etc.) 
when their frequencies are so low? Is it because when these shafts are trimmed 
to the length of a normal driver they would be rated as XX, XXX, etc.? If so, 
how does shaft frequency change when you butt trim and/or tip trim? Is there a 
ball-park figure of cpm increase per inch of tip/butt trim?

   

  Your input and feedback would be very welcome.

   

  Best wishes,

   

  Paul

   

  Paul Glazier
  Long Drive Professional & Sport Scientist

  Dartmouth Golf & Country Club,
  Blackawton,
  Totnes,
  Devon,
  TQ9 7DE

   

  Skype: paul.glazier

   

  http://www.longdrivegolf.co.uk

  http://www.dgcc.co.uk/longdrive.htm

   

Re: ShopTalk: Chicago Golf

[Bernie Baymiller]

Brian,

I have a phone number for Chicago Golf that I haven't used in a long while. I 
believe Tony only has (had?) one store in Clearwater... phone: 1-727-571-1556. 

Let me know if he's still there. I'm considering building a new set of 944Cs. 
They are best playing, low cost irons I've had. But the 304 soft stainless is 
now getting a bit worn after about 12 years of use, usually over 100 rounds a 
year. 

Bernie
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  - Original Message - 
  From: Brian Lyall 
  To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com 
  Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 9:40 AM
  Subject: ShopTalk: Chicago Golf


  I am looking to reacquire a set of the Chicago Golf 944DB Wide Sole irons. CG 
seems to be gone. Any of you guys have a 5-PW set of the heads around. Used is 
fine.

Re: ShopTalk: Traffic

[Bernie Baymiller]

Andre,

I just ran into the reverse. A 5'8" senior friend said he was hitting his 24° 
GS XPC hybrid, which he had built himself, very well and wanted to get the 3W 
version for a bit more distance, but couldn't get the head or shaft anymore. He 
asked me if I could find one for him and build it. I told him I'd see what I 
could find to somewhat match his hybrid club if he would bring me the club so I 
could match it as closely as possible. Well, I was amazed to see he had simply 
epoxied the shaft in the hosel, the club was 46" long and had a swingweight of 
F1. I can't believe he can even swing that thing, but guess the only way I can 
get another 10 or 15 yards for him is to use the same shaft length and lower 
lofted head...or maybe I'll just have him build it himself. :-) 

Bernie
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  - Original Message - 
  From: André Cantin 
  To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com 
  Sent: Friday, September 14, 2007 9:54 AM
  Subject: Re: ShopTalk: Traffic


  Not sure about the sw issue Dave. I recently put up of Maltby Glider irons 
with TT Dynalite regular shafts to a D2 swingweight. Customer comes back and 
says he is them too high and wants to try something else. He has me reshaft his 
5-6-7 irons with SK fiber shafts which have been already cut off 1 inch shorter 
than standard. The previous clubmaker had not done any reweighting therefore I 
just stuck the shafts in there but advised the customer that the sw was C4. 
Much to my dismay he calls me back and says he likes them like that. Go figure.
  André.
- Original Message - 
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com 
Sent: Friday, September 14, 2007 12:43 AM
Subject: Re: ShopTalk: Traffic



   
Hi r.w.
Here is a quote from a marginally famous club designer who happens to be an 
overall nice guy that I can vouch for as I am him :-)
David

The 3 wood comes in the standard loft of 15* as well as a 13* model for 
players who generate excessive club head speed, AND is also available in a 17* 
model for players who have difficulty getting a high soaring shot from 
traditional 3 woods, this is important because for these players to hit a 
dependable shot off the deck they resort to a 4 or 5 wood and with the shorter 
shaft length sacrifice needed distance, some have even tried using a 5 wood 
head made at a 3 wood length but this results in excessive swing weight and is 
not the answer.
Our 17* 3 wood is sure to add a whole new dimension to the game for those 
who need it.











**
See what's new at http://www.aol.com 





No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition. 
Version: 7.5.485 / Virus Database: 269.13.16/1005 - Release Date: 9/13/2007 
11:45 AM

Re: ShopTalk: Component Distributor

[Bernie Baymiller]

Bob,

Believe that is http://www.tourgolfproducts.com/  Seems to me their Columbus 
operation has been closed, many products are out of stock and operation is back 
in Newark. I've e-mailed them several times and never got an answer. I did get 
someone on the phone, though. Any ideas on what happened?

Bernie
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

  - Original Message - 
  From: Bob S 
  To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com 
  Sent: Sunday, August 26, 2007 1:55 PM
  Subject: Re: ShopTalk: Component Distributor


  I'm hitting their SW7 - #3 fairway wood 15*
  and the hybrid SWB #3-17*+ and #5- 23* rather well..  Haven't tried any 
driver heads lately..  Try "www.tourproducts.com"

  Bob Simmons



--
  From: Bob Barrette
  Sent: Sunday, August 26, 2007 9:38 AM
  To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com
  Subject: Re: ShopTalk: Component Distributor


  Hi Bob:
  Have you tried any of their heads lately? if so which would recommend?

  Regards,  
  Bob

  P.S. Thanks to all that responded 




--
  Park yourself in front of a world of choices in alternative vehicles.
  Visit the Yahoo! Auto Green Center.

Re: ShopTalk: Component Distributor

[Bernie Baymiller]

Bob,

I've had several senior women who really like the Integra VS88 III...at least, 
I've had two "tried my friend's" referrals for that one in the last month. It's 
450 cc and I try to get as light a head as possible...specs 198±3. I think this 
Ti head performs very well for slower swingers and is certainly not expensive 
($38-$45). She can beat up several for that price. :-) 

The first one I tried at 46" clublength, head 195 grams with a 52 gram shaft 
and Winn Excel was sold to a guy in my golf group with kind of an "armsy" swing 
and he picked up at least 25 yards with it. Then his wife wanted one just like 
it, using her favorite old 58 gram Graman HL-40A plum color shaft, 46" club 
length and picked up 30 yards...told me she shot the lowest score of her life 
(83 and incidentally beat her husband) with it the 2nd week she played with it. 
Built two more for ladies since then who tried hers and were impressed with the 
feel and distance.

For higher dollars, you can't beat the Bang-O-Matic 460cc at 194-196 grams.

Bernie
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 


  - Original Message - 
  From: Bob Barrette 
  To: Spine Talk ; shop talk shop 
  Sent: Friday, August 24, 2007 4:07 PM
  Subject: ShopTalk: Component Distributor


  One of my former customers wants a new driver, she has one that I sold her 
several years ago, and she likes it very much. But she doesn't put her head 
cover on it when she plays, consequently it looks like its been in a battle, 
and it lost.
  I thought of having it re finished, but she definitely wants a new one.
  Her driver is a "Tour Model 405" which I sold quite a few of, and had great 
revues on, but I can't remember who I bought it from, and she wants a similar 
one,  but  a460 cc one.

  Any help would be greatly appreciated!!

  Bob



--
  Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your pocket: mail, 
news, photos & more. 

Re: ShopTalk: .335 and .370 Reamers?

[Bernie Baymiller]

Ed,

Is this what you're looking for?

http://www.msdiscount.com/columnar.aspx?cat_id=1081&session_id=689437114&category_site=STARTOOL

Less cost than GS.

Bernie
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

- Original Message - 
From: "Ed Reeder" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: "clubmaker online" 
Sent: Monday, August 20, 2007 3:46 PM
Subject: ShopTalk: .335 and .370 Reamers?


Does anyone have a good source for .335 and .370 HSS straight-flute 
chucking reamers?  Right now it looks like GS is the place, which is hard 
to believe.


I've looked at MSC Direct and Wholesale Tool.  MSC has the .370, but is 
more money than GS. WT has neither.


Thx,

/Ed

Re: ShopTalk: Another "miracle" method?

[Bernie Baymiller]

Tom,

ANever heard of it, but after a quick read that technique seems to be about 
the same swing that works for me with a long driver. If I hold on to the 
grip with the little finger of the left hand, the result is generally long 
(for me) and straight at the target.


Bernie
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

- Original Message - 
From: "Tom" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: ; "spine" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 1:44 AM
Subject: ShopTalk: Another "miracle" method?


Anyone looked at the "Stack and Tilt" golf teaching "discovery?" There's a 
second article about it in the current issue of Golf Digest. This time 
with comments from several of the top instructors in the game.


I tried a few dozen swings with it yesterday and today. It looks to me to 
be a pretty good money-maker for someone.


TFlan

Re: ShopTalk: Another Strange Putter

[Bernie Baymiller]

Ed,

Have you seen this one?

http://patimg2.uspto.gov/.piw?Docid=03519270&homeurl=http%3A%2F%2Fpatft1.uspto.gov%2Fnetacgi%2Fnph-Parser%3FSect1%3DPTO2%2526Sect2%3DHITOFF%2526p%3D1%2526u%3D%25252Fnetahtml%25252FPTO%25252Fsearch-bool.html%2526r%3D8%2526f%3DG%2526l%3D50%2526co1%3DAND%2526d%3DPALL%2526s1%3DBaymiller.INNM.%2526OS%3DIN%2FBaymiller%2526RS%3DIN%2FBaymiller&PageNum=&Rtype=&SectionNum=&idkey=NONE&Input=View+first+page

Dad was basically a "wrist putter." But as dad got older, he lost quite a
bit of feel for distance on his putts. He had some experience fishing with
plugs and realized he could judge the distance to throw the plug by the feel
of the flex on his cast. So, he used a welding rod to give his putters the
flex he wanted. He putted "lights out" with this thing after he refined it
somewhat from what is shown in the patent...he was deadly with it from 10'
in and I saw him make a lot of putts over 25'. The final head was a 1"
diameter stainless rod about 5" long with flattened areas on each side
having about 4° loft. There was 8" of welding rod. I still have his
original, which had a smaller head and longer rod. In his 60s and early 70s,
he played in a lot of national senior tournaments and would make up a few of
these to take along. Sold them for $25 each. There always seemed to be
another senior who putted very well with it and he sold several pages worth
in his record book. It definitely takes some practice to learn the tempo. I
was very good with it on long putts, but a 3-footer was a nightmare for
me...I just jerked it too much. In his 80s, he finally sold the patent to a
company which was going to manufacture it, but they never did anything with
it.

Bernie
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

- Original Message - 
From: "Ed Reeder" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: "clubmaker online" ;
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, August 13, 2007 3:04 PM
Subject: ShopTalk: Another Strange Putter



Long time members will recall my fascination with strange putters.

Here is the latest http://puttingzone-news.newslib.com/story/6057-3233797/

This is absolutely nuts.  Unless you hit the ball in the exact center of
the clubface you are sure to miss.  Just think of the old Carbite Putter
Ball training aid, with less of a curve.

/Ed

Re: ShopTalk: Re: Tournament Pairings Help

[Bernie Baymiller]

Ed,

We had a "home and away" event with a local country club for a few years, 
about 20 players from each club, and handled it much like you are...2 low 
net. We had two players from our group and two players from their group in 
each foursome. Each player kicked in $10, I think, and we paid 3 places. 
What kept it fair was a knowledge captains from both clubs had of all 
players...who was playing good and bad, who was sandbagging of sorts, who 
played fast and slow, etc. The captains got together and made up teams based 
on handicaps and their knowledge of players. Each club threw a buffet lunch 
for the other at their home course (Nothing fancy...burgers, dogs, beans, 
potato salad, etc. and I recall their home baked cookies were great!). 
Greens fees (including cart and range balls to warm up) were a special rate 
$25 for the visitors. Lunch, golf and a lot of fun for $35...didn't even 
need to win to have a good day. Home players kicked in some bucks to cover 
visitors' lunches...think usually about $20. But, even with only $400 in the 
pot, it was always a somewhat spirited competition.


Bernie
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

- Original Message - 
From: "Ed Reeder" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: "clubmaker online" 
Sent: Monday, August 06, 2007 7:50 PM
Subject: ShopTalk: Re: Tournament Pairings Help



Dave,
Absolutely great questions.

1. The competitions are individual foursome events.

2. A foursome's 2 best net scores per hole.  (2 * 18) = Total Team Strokes

3. Net scores, handicaps are monitored and are trusted (but sand baggers 
will exist to some small degree).


4. "Fair" was probably the incorrect term.  Equitable might be better. 
Dean Knuth's web site has an article on picking a partner

http://www.popeofslope.com/guidelines/picking.html
There are certain handicap combinations that have an advantage / 
disadvantage.  I would want to avoid those combinations if possible.


Here is an excerpt from the Knuth article:
Dr. Scheid has also researched four-man teams, a grouping most often found 
in a pro-amateur competition. In many tournaments, the teams consist of an 
A player (handicap of 3 to 7), B (8-12), C (13-17) and D (18-22), making 
each team relatively equal in strength. but when teams are allowed to put 
together their own combinations, it's possible to gain an advantage by 
studying Dr. Scheid's findings. They show that a team composed entirely of 
A players would have an edge on a team of C players, but would not fare as 
well as a team of B players. According to Dr. Scheid, the best combination 
would be a team whose composition is BBDD. Next, a full stroke behind in 
potential, would be a team of AACC, closely followed by AABB and AADD. 
This research is not to be dismissed lightly, based as it is on the study 
of thousands of tournament scores.


Of course our fields won't have an equal distribtion of A, B, C, & D 
players.


/Ed

Dave Tutelman wrote:



Sorry to disappoint, Ed! I guess I'm not a smart guy, because I don't
understand the question. Actually, I don't think I know what a fair
foursome is. For instance, first I would want to know:

(1) Does a club win, or does an individual win?

(2) What game is being played? Individual stroke play? Four ball
better ball? Something else?

(3) Does the game include handicap, or is it gross? Either way, are
the handicaps known and trusted?

(4) Could you give some examples of an UNFAIR foursome, so I know
what the metric of fairness is?

Basically I'm saying that you are asking for a precise, algorithmic
solution to a problem that is far from precisely stated. ("Fair" is
hardly a precise measurement.)

Thanks,
DaveT

At 04:42 PM 8/6/2007, Ed Reeder wrote:

 >I'm hoping that one of you smart guys can help me out.
 >
 > From time to time I participate in tournaments with other clubs and we
 >create foursomes which usually consist of two players from one club and
 >two players from the other club. At times the number of players on each
 >side may be different, so instead of 2 from each side, it could be 3 
and

 >1, or even 4 and 0.
 >
 >Right now we do this by hand, with no real guidance on how to fairly
 >allocate the players.
 >
 >I'd like to have a way to automatically and fairly create foursomes.
 >Though we typically have only two clubs to draw from, I could see that
 >three or four could be a possibility.
 >
 >I've got a few questions:
 >1. Is there a formula for fairly creating the foursomes?
 >2. Is there a way to automate this in Excel, with the ability to draw
 >players from 1 to 4 "pools" of players?
 >3. Is there a cheap software package that does this?
 >
 >Thx,
 >
 >/Ed

--

Re: ShopTalk: Are we all playing golf?

[Bernie Baymiller]

Ron,

Some small talk so you have something to read... :-)

Yup. Nice weather here in east Tennessee when we get early tee times and not 
so bad in the afternoon, either. Pop-up showers keep a breeze going and 
clouds cut the heat. And, I'm sure enjoying the golf playing on a new knee 
after being in and out of the hospital and rehab for 14 months. I heartily 
recommend the new Ti knees to anyone who's worn out the original. Long 48" 
BOM/PE-A/Winn Excel mid driver is back up to 240-250 yards on solid hits and 
almost as straight as ever. At 72, I'm reasonably satisfied with that, since 
I certainly qualify for the senior tees. Scoring 74 to 80 most of the time, 
which I haven't been able to do for two years. It's very helpful to have a 
solid left knee to swing against. Hope you are playing well, too.


Have been having fun with "Flanagan-type make-dos." :-) Needed a long belly 
putter grip yesterday. Took two pulled 69 cent Grip One Seamless Softwraps 
(with a sliver spiral) in good shape, clamped them flat near the third 
spiral from the lower end, cut with a sharp knife for a clean cut right on 
the spiral line. Then, found a correct sized bit of old steel shaft to 
sharpen and cut a hole in one grip's butt end. Built up the putter shaft a 
bit, added my grip tape. Wet the tape and grip pieces with solvent, slipped 
on the piece with the cutt butt hole downward to about the right position 
and followed with the other piece. The grips stretch easily and I twisted 
them to match up the spiral cuts. Could barely see the cut between the two 
pieces. Looks nice, works fine. Making something for almost nothing is 
always fun. :-)


Info for long driver users: Tried a square driver a couple of months ago 
(Quadratic 10.5°) at 48" club length and found the square shape is not very 
good for long drivers unless the lie is almost correct. The face is much 
shallower than similar sized, more round-shaped 460cc heads and the Quad has 
a more upright lie at about 60°. The toe sits up more on longer drivers for 
shorty me and the shallower, more "rectangular" shape of the head makes it a 
smaller, angled spot and more difficult to hit perfectly. I'm much more 
consistent with the big, round 460cc heads at 48" clublength. Doesn't matter 
if the toe is up a bit or not with a round-faced head. I've already cut the 
Quad down to 46" and it played much more consistently, though I lost about 
15 yards. BOM is back in my bag.


Bernie
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


- Original Message - 
From: "Ron Kellison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: 
Sent: Saturday, July 21, 2007 8:28 PM
Subject: ShopTalk: Are we all playing golf?



I haven't received anything for several days!

Regards,

Ron

Re: ShopTalk: Tom Wishon's wedges

[Bernie Baymiller]

Tom,

I liked the looks of those heads...kind of a semi-blade-look CB, nice and 
clean, blade-shaped though somewhat larger than I prefer. But, "oversize" was 
the "big, new thing" at that time, as I remember. Only other negative was their 
tendency to dig. Names? Well, I don't care much what anyone calls a head, but a 
name is usually more memorable to me than a number.

No charge. Send me a shipping address, I'll clean 'em up a bit and send them 
out. 

Bernie
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 


- Original Message - 
  From: Tom Wishon 
  To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com 
  Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2007 6:51 PM
  Subject: RE: ShopTalk: Tom Wishon's wedges


  BERNIE:



  Yeowch!!!  I have to tell you that I no longer look back into the old 
Golfsmith catalogs in years 93, 94 because some of the models make me cringe.  
I like to call it "my formative years" or rather, my "I had to listen to what 
other people wanted me to design before I got the freedom to design what I 
wanted to do period!!"  Then there were the early names on the models. . . ouch 
on that for many of them!!  (chuckle!!)  I HATED naming my models so I used to 
let the GS marketing dept do that.  Hence why I now use numbers and acronyms!!  
Oh well.  



  Thanks much for the offer and let me know what you want for them.  Actually 
for this model, I won't offer you much if you don't mind!!  HA!  



  Speaking of old models, anyone out there have even one of the TG System irons 
from Golfsmith, circa 1995-6??  That is one I would like to have in my 
collection.  



  TOM  ;>)  







  -Original Message-
  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bernie 
Baymiller
  Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2007 4:24 PM
  To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com
  Subject: Re: ShopTalk: Tom Wishon's wedges



  Tom,



  Seems to me that the GS Backflow irons were one of your designs. I have a set 
of Backflow irons 3-PW in good shape, if you don't have any of these in your 
collection. Played with them for less than 6 months. In Lancaster County, PA, 
with good topsoil on every course I played up there, they were really good 
heads...solid feeling, accurate and consistent...took nice divots and the ball 
went a long way. I had a somewhat steep swing at the time (1995?) and on the 
Bermuda fairways over red clay fairways of East TN, I seemed to chunk every 
other shot with the Backflows. When I tried a set of Chicago 944s, with a nice 
Bermuda grind on the leading edge, my shotmaking here improved a lot...bounced 
those heads right through the shot without grabbing the short, wiry stuff. :-) 
So, the Backflows are yours if you want them.



  Bernie
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 

- Original Message - 

From: Tom Wishon 

To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com 

Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2007 3:57 PM

Subject: RE: ShopTalk: Tom Wishon's wedges



ED:



It figures that the father of these irons cannot remember that they were 
CNC 5000 instead of 1000!!  Oh well, I only missed it by 4000.  Another senior 
moment.  



Speaking of things one does when the years start to add up, I have been 
trying to acquire some of my old designs for my collection and I do not have 
any of these CNC 5000 heads.  So if you are willing to make a deal and part 
with these, I certainly would appreciate having them in my "pile" !!  Let me 
know off site what you might want for these if you will.  



Thanks much!



TOM WISHON 







-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ed Reeder
Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2007 1:38 PM
To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com
Subject: Re: ShopTalk: Tom Wishon's wedges



George,
I have a set of CMC 5000s from TWW's days at GS, milled faces (perhaps 
these are the heads Tom was thinking of?).  They are oversize heads with a nice 
look.

If any one is interested I have 2 through 9, SW, and 60*.  Can't currently 
locate the PW.

/Ed

Tom Wishon wrote: 

GEORGE:



If you can find someone with an old set of the CNC 1000 irons that I 
designed for Dynacraft back in the late 1980s, that was a full set of irons 
with all CNC machining on the face.  It did not incorporate smaller and closer 
scorelines as do the CX Micro wedges, though.  I've been thinking about the old 
CNC 1000 irons lately since doing the CX Micro wedges, but there are a number 
of things to really test and consider before doing that on ALL of the irons in 
a set.  For some golfers, more spin on the irons means a higher trajectory AND 
a little less distance.  So there would have to be a decent amount of work done 
to determine how best to do this and what lofts to incorporate to make sure the 
spin enhancement still works on its own without causing any problems to 
trajectory and distance for the golfer.  



TOM  



-Original Message

Re: ShopTalk: Tom Wishon's wedges

[Bernie Baymiller]

Tom,

Seems to me that the GS Backflow irons were one of your designs. I have a set 
of Backflow irons 3-PW in good shape, if you don't have any of these in your 
collection. Played with them for less than 6 months. In Lancaster County, PA, 
with good topsoil on every course I played up there, they were really good 
heads...solid feeling, accurate and consistent...took nice divots and the ball 
went a long way. I had a somewhat steep swing at the time (1995?) and on the 
Bermuda fairways over red clay fairways of East TN, I seemed to chunk every 
other shot with the Backflows. When I tried a set of Chicago 944s, with a nice 
Bermuda grind on the leading edge, my shotmaking here improved a lot...bounced 
those heads right through the shot without grabbing the short, wiry stuff. :-) 
So, the Backflows are yours if you want them.

Bernie
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  - Original Message - 
  From: Tom Wishon 
  To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com 
  Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2007 3:57 PM
  Subject: RE: ShopTalk: Tom Wishon's wedges


  ED:



  It figures that the father of these irons cannot remember that they were CNC 
5000 instead of 1000!!  Oh well, I only missed it by 4000.  Another senior 
moment.  



  Speaking of things one does when the years start to add up, I have been 
trying to acquire some of my old designs for my collection and I do not have 
any of these CNC 5000 heads.  So if you are willing to make a deal and part 
with these, I certainly would appreciate having them in my "pile" !!  Let me 
know off site what you might want for these if you will.  



  Thanks much!



  TOM WISHON 







  -Original Message-
  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ed Reeder
  Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2007 1:38 PM
  To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com
  Subject: Re: ShopTalk: Tom Wishon's wedges



  George,
  I have a set of CMC 5000s from TWW's days at GS, milled faces (perhaps these 
are the heads Tom was thinking of?).  They are oversize heads with a nice look.

  If any one is interested I have 2 through 9, SW, and 60*.  Can't currently 
locate the PW.

  /Ed

  Tom Wishon wrote: 

  GEORGE:



  If you can find someone with an old set of the CNC 1000 irons that I designed 
for Dynacraft back in the late 1980s, that was a full set of irons with all CNC 
machining on the face.  It did not incorporate smaller and closer scorelines as 
do the CX Micro wedges, though.  I've been thinking about the old CNC 1000 
irons lately since doing the CX Micro wedges, but there are a number of things 
to really test and consider before doing that on ALL of the irons in a set.  
For some golfers, more spin on the irons means a higher trajectory AND a little 
less distance.  So there would have to be a decent amount of work done to 
determine how best to do this and what lofts to incorporate to make sure the 
spin enhancement still works on its own without causing any problems to 
trajectory and distance for the golfer.  



  TOM  



  -Original Message-
  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of GEORGE HUSON
  Sent: Monday, June 04, 2007 5:01 AM
  To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com
  Subject: ShopTalk: Tom Wishon's wedges



  I have been selling quite a few of Tom's new design CX micro groove wedges.  
They are some of the best wedge design I have had the pleasure of selling.  I 
now have a customer that wants a complete set of irons just like the wedges. 
Anyone know if Tom is planning an making an iron set with the Micro-groove face 
design?  



  George Huson

  ByGeorge Custom Clubs

Re: ShopTalk: Economic life of golf balls

[Bernie Baymiller]

Dave,

Yes, I figured you'd correct me on that. :-) I looked at what I wrote and 
thought 12/1000 is too small. Then, after the correction, I looked at an old 
ball sitting on my desk which a friend remembered from the '60s (US Royal 
with the inverted pyramids) in another e-mail discussion and realized it was 
about that of my original 0.012" depth. My friend had been wondering about 
what brand ball he played with "square" dimples, so I looked in my 90-ball 
shag bag which hasn't been used more than a couple of times since I moved to 
TN in 1970. Sure enough, there was one in there. Anyway, I'm sure dad told 
me the 012...wherever the decimal point belongs. :-)


Bernie
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

- Original Message - 
From: "Dave Tutelman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: 
Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2007 11:44 AM
Subject: Re: ShopTalk: Economic life of golf balls



At 11:17 AM 5/20/2007, Bernie Baymiller wrote:

Whoops! That number for dimple depth was supposed to be 0.12".


Gee, I certainly hope not! The original number your posted (0.012") is far 
more likely. Consider:


(1) Your new number is 1/8". That's WAY too much for dimple depth.

(2) An article by a couple of Bridgestone engineers (see below) cites 
0.2mm as typical for dimple depth. That would be 0.008", which is even 
less than your 0.012" original estimate.


(3) Cochran & Stobbs "Search for the Perfect Swing" shows a graph of 
dimple depth vs carry distance. It has a rounded maximum that shows little 
difference over the range 0.008" to 0.012".


So I'd say your first estimate was the correct one.

About the Bridgestone article... It appears in the collection "Golf the 
Scientific Way" from the early 1990s. It is by Tomita & Chikaraishi, and 
is entitled "Effect of Different Dimple Patterns on Flight". Good article, 
if you have an engineering or scientific background but no expertise on 
aerodynamics or ball flight. Actually, that is the level of presentation 
for most of the articles in that book.


Cheers!
DaveT



- Original Message -
From: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Bernie Baymiller
To: <mailto:ShopTalk@mail.msen.com>ShopTalk@mail.msen.com
Sent: Saturday, May 19, 2007 5:26 PM
Subject: Re: ShopTalk: Economic life of golf balls

Bob,

Don't know how much this applies today, but from a historical 
standpoint...


When my dad was researching golf balls at Spalding & Bros. in the late 
1930s, they tested many types of dimples and dimple depths. Spalding's 
best ball at that time was the 100 compression Dot, tightly wound over a 
liquid center with a balata cover. Dad told me the width and shape of the 
dimple didn't seem to matter much, though an inverted tetrahedron was 
slightly better for distance. The key to optimum ball flight was the 
dimple depth, which was best at 0.012" (if I remember correctly). Dad said 
that tests showed when a ball was hit about 25 times, it achieved maximum 
distance because the edges of the dimples were slightly rounded off by the 
pounding. That was worth about 5 extra yards. They experimented with a 
"streamlined" dimple, but dad said it was so ugly that they decided it 
wouldn't sell and never made any. When the dimple depth began to flatten, 
the ball lost distance.


I'd guess that would still be true today, except today's cover materials 
probably have more durable edges and it takes longer to "streamline" them. 
I wonder how long they hold their distance myself.


Bernie
<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>[EMAIL PROTECTED]
- Original Message -
From: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Bob Barrette
To: <mailto:ShopTalk@mail.msen.com>shop talk shop
Sent: Saturday, May 19, 2007 12:08 PM
Subject: ShopTalk: Economic life of golf balls

While everything is quiet, (not many posts of late) I thought I would pose 
this question!


Has anyone, with a mechanical driving device (like Iron Byron), tested a 
golf ball by hitting the same ball over and over, to determine after what 
number of hits, does it starts to lose ball speed ?


My experience has been when playing the same ball for 2 rounds or more, 
when I need to reach a par five in two, if I use a brand new ball, I seem 
to get a much longer drive. Is it because a newer ball has not lost any of 
its rebound properties, or is it just my imagination?


Would the makeup of different balls, ie. 2 piece, 3 piece, have different 
results?


Inquiring minds would like to know!

Regards,



--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.467 / Virus Database: 
269.7.5/812 - Release Date: 5/19/2007 1:52 PM

Re: ShopTalk: Economic life of golf balls

[Bernie Baymiller]

Whoops! That number for dimple depth was supposed to be 0.12".
  - Original Message - 
  From: Bernie Baymiller 
  To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com 
  Sent: Saturday, May 19, 2007 5:26 PM
  Subject: Re: ShopTalk: Economic life of golf balls


  Bob,

  Don't know how much this applies today, but from a historical standpoint...

  When my dad was researching golf balls at Spalding & Bros. in the late 1930s, 
they tested many types of dimples and dimple depths. Spalding's best ball at 
that time was the 100 compression Dot, tightly wound over a liquid center with 
a balata cover. Dad told me the width and shape of the dimple didn't seem to 
matter much, though an inverted tetrahedron was slightly better for distance. 
The key to optimum ball flight was the dimple depth, which was best at 0.012" 
(if I remember correctly). Dad said that tests showed when a ball was hit about 
25 times, it achieved maximum distance because the edges of the dimples were 
slightly rounded off by the pounding. That was worth about 5 extra yards. They 
experimented with a "streamlined" dimple, but dad said it was so ugly that they 
decided it wouldn't sell and never made any. When the dimple depth began to 
flatten, the ball lost distance.

  I'd guess that would still be true today, except today's cover materials 
probably have more durable edges and it takes longer to "streamline" them. I 
wonder how long they hold their distance myself.

  Bernie
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
- Original Message - 
From: Bob Barrette 
To: shop talk shop 
Sent: Saturday, May 19, 2007 12:08 PM
Subject: ShopTalk: Economic life of golf balls


While everything is quiet, (not many posts of late) I thought I would pose 
this question! 

Has anyone, with a mechanical driving device (like Iron Byron), tested a 
golf ball by hitting the same ball over and over, to determine after what 
number of hits, does it starts to lose ball speed ? 

My experience has been when playing the same ball for 2 rounds or more, 
when I need to reach a par five in two, if I use a brand new ball, I seem to 
get a much longer drive. Is it because a newer ball has not lost any of its 
rebound properties, or is it just my imagination?

Would the makeup of different balls, ie. 2 piece, 3 piece, have different 
results?

Inquiring minds would like to know!

Regards,






Get your own web address.
Have a HUGE year through Yahoo! Small Business.

Re: ShopTalk: Economic life of golf balls

[Bernie Baymiller]

Bob,

Don't know how much this applies today, but from a historical standpoint...

When my dad was researching golf balls at Spalding & Bros. in the late 1930s, 
they tested many types of dimples and dimple depths. Spalding's best ball at 
that time was the 100 compression Dot, tightly wound over a liquid center with 
a balata cover. Dad told me the width and shape of the dimple didn't seem to 
matter much, though an inverted tetrahedron was slightly better for distance. 
The key to optimum ball flight was the dimple depth, which was best at 0.012" 
(if I remember correctly). Dad said that tests showed when a ball was hit about 
25 times, it achieved maximum distance because the edges of the dimples were 
slightly rounded off by the pounding. That was worth about 5 extra yards. They 
experimented with a "streamlined" dimple, but dad said it was so ugly that they 
decided it wouldn't sell and never made any. When the dimple depth began to 
flatten, the ball lost distance.

I'd guess that would still be true today, except today's cover materials 
probably have more durable edges and it takes longer to "streamline" them. I 
wonder how long they hold their distance myself.

Bernie
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  - Original Message - 
  From: Bob Barrette 
  To: shop talk shop 
  Sent: Saturday, May 19, 2007 12:08 PM
  Subject: ShopTalk: Economic life of golf balls


  While everything is quiet, (not many posts of late) I thought I would pose 
this question! 

  Has anyone, with a mechanical driving device (like Iron Byron), tested a golf 
ball by hitting the same ball over and over, to determine after what number of 
hits, does it starts to lose ball speed ? 

  My experience has been when playing the same ball for 2 rounds or more, when 
I need to reach a par five in two, if I use a brand new ball, I seem to get a 
much longer drive. Is it because a newer ball has not lost any of its rebound 
properties, or is it just my imagination?

  Would the makeup of different balls, ie. 2 piece, 3 piece, have different 
results?

  Inquiring minds would like to know!

  Regards,





--
  Get your own web address.
  Have a HUGE year through Yahoo! Small Business.

Re: ShopTalk: Chicago Golf Sports

[Bernie Baymiller]

Andre, 

No, I'm not looking for their s/w estimator. I originally got permission to 
distribute it from Jeff Parrott years ago, and provided many FGIers with a copy 
several years back. Still have my copy of it and also Douglas Marsh's free 
download s/w estimator. http://www.swingweightestimator.com/ That's a good one, 
a bit more accurate for me than the Chicago one because I use a lot of shafts 
under 60 grams. If I remember correctly, DT designed the Chicago estimator when 
the goal was to keep the program size way down and he told me that when shafts 
get under 60 grams the program is off a point or two. I've found that to be 
true. It's still useful for me, though.

Bernie
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

- Original Message - 
  From: André Cantin 
  To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com 
  Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2007 3:54 PM
  Subject: Re: ShopTalk: Chicago Golf Sports


  Are you looking for their sw estimator?

Re: ShopTalk: Chicago Golf Sports

[Bernie Baymiller]

Tom,

Yes, I knew Jeff had gone a few years ago, but I purchased a couple of heads 
maybe a year and a half ago. (Could have been longer, but you should know 
how it is when you're 72.) At the time, I had some seniors so happy with the 
966SD, when it wore out, they wanted another one. (I must have sold over a 
hundred of those heads here.) Same for the 944 irons...still the best 
playing heads in the semi-blade style that I've tried. The best semi-blade, 
low-offset alternatives I've seen under $10 are the ProPerimeters. I'm 
playing them now and the delofted short irons are somewhat a help to close 
gaps that I had between 9 and wedges in the 944s. Any other suggestions?


How've you been playing this year? After hardly being able to walk last year 
and finally getting a new Ti left knee in early December, I've been hacking 
around for about a month and a half. Lots of 80-somethings and only a couple 
of 70-somethings. Even a couple of 92s in there. Putting and chipping are 
laughable. If anyone thinks Ti heads are getting expensive, a new Ti knee 
costs $25,000 for the parts alone. Doc's charge to install it was about 
another $25 grand. Whew! Glad I was covered for that. He did a good job, 
though. Feels pretty normal now and he tells me I might not know it from the 
real thing in a year's time. Though I need a lot practice time, our Toqua 
range is closed for a few months and our course closed for a 
year...rebuilding greens, tees and watering system. Will be really nice when 
it's finished...larger greens with fewer place ball rolls off the green, 
better grass and hopefully the watering system with be used more 
often...unlike the last one. We have two other courses, but the only other 
range is 20 miles down the lake at our Kahite course.


Bernie
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


- Original Message - 
From: "TOM FLANAGAN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: 
Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2007 2:41 PM
Subject: Re: ShopTalk: Chicago Golf Sports



Hi Bernie;

Chicago Golf has gone the way of other small
companies. Jeff Parrott however is an occasional
contributor to these pages. I bought a few things from
them over the years . . . not a lot but what I bought
was pretty good stuff.

TFlan

--- Bernie Baymiller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


Anyone know what happened to the Chicago Golf web
site? Can't seem to find it. Did it move? Are they
out of the internet component business?

Bernie
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

ShopTalk: Chicago Golf Sports

[Bernie Baymiller]

Anyone know what happened to the Chicago Golf web site? Can't seem to find it. 
Did it move? Are they out of the internet component business? 

Bernie
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Re: ShopTalk: Square Drivers?

[Bernie Baymiller]

David,

Had a strong, senior guy with sort of a baseball swing come in the other day 
(hits a low hook) who wanted a 3W he could get up in the air. I know I can get 
the Quad fairway 3W up pretty well, though not very far, so I tell him to take 
a few balls and hit them up the fairway behind my house (our course is closed 
for greens and watering system rebuild). He nails two out of the three with OK 
trajectory and says he'll take it. Asked him today how he was doing with 
it..."I love it," he says. "Hit a ball 235 yards with it the other day." (He 
hits his driver about 260 yards.) So, there you go...my first positive Quad 
fairway report. :-) Maybe I can sell, him my "dead 5W?" Well, he has a Bang SF 
5W that I built him which he considers the best club in his bag. 

Bernie
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  - Original Message - 
  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com 
  Sent: Friday, April 27, 2007 11:06 PM
  Subject: Re: ShopTalk: Square Drivers?


  In a message dated 4/26/2007 6:25:56 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL 
PROTECTED] writes:


Incidentally, the Quadratic fairway woods are really duds...very short 
hitting at normal club lengths. Much shorter hitting than my 10 year old 
Cydonia LCGs. Almost feel like pot metal when I hit the Quad fairways.

Bernie
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


  Hi Bernie,
  Im sorry to hear you did not fair well with the Quadratic fairway wds.
  This is the 1st negative comment I have heard about them.
  We have sold 100's of them and every one seems to be very impressed, they are 
available in a 3, 5, 7, 9 and most people who have bought 1 like them so much 
that they come back and by others.
  I personally replaced my Ping raptor 2 Hybrid shafted in a VS Proto with a 
Quadratic 9 wd in a Prolite fairway shaft and I could not be happier with the 
results.
  I mention this because based on your comments Ed has now said that they are a 
poor performer and it strikes me that now others may just write that club off 
as another dud, and although it didn't suit you, it suits me very well, and has 
been one of the more successful fairway wds we have ever offered and in no way 
shape or form would I consider it a dud.
  I have hit these side by side with Sonartech's, Wishon's, Kzg's and Vector 
III's which are the best we have and they take a back seat to none in my 
experience.
  Thanks,
  David


  **
  See what's free at http://www.aol.com. 

Re: ShopTalk: Square Drivers?

[Bernie Baymiller]

David,

Yes, I certainly did receive dead Quadratic fairway heads. But it's seems 
amazing to me that my opinion would send a head into purgatory. For example's 
sake, my opinion has always been that almost anyone can learn to hit a long 
driver as accurately and farther than a short one if made correctly. And the 
dozens of times I've said that here on Shoptalk hasn't sent many short drivers 
into purgatory. :-)

I wouldn't have given my "negative review" on the Quad fairways if I hadn't 
read many others' opinions who felt the same way. I know of 4 or 5 other 
clubmakers, both friends (one on Shoptalk) and quite a few on the FGI forum, 
who feel the same way I do. There are some positive comments on the FGI forum 
as well, but I think it's always good to be a little forewarned that a head 
doesn't work well for some players...at least I like to know of any problems 
someone has with a head. I got an early 3W and 5W and built them to 43" and 
42". Has there been a change in the construction since then which has improved 
their distance? The Quad fairways do feel solid and get the ball up well, so I 
and another clubmaker are going to have a couple of senior women try our "dead" 
heads...perhaps the heads will perform OK with the slower swing speeds. But the 
15 to 20 yards distance loss, compared with my Cydonia LCGs at equal lofts, is 
a significant difference. 

I've certainly played a lot of very good performing heads from Integra that I 
think did get a "bum rap"...the original Super 450 is still one of the best 
driver heads I've ever hit for feel and distance (not the beefed up version), 
though big hitters often crushed them. I still take my S450 driver out 
occasionally to compare with the new ones. The $45 VS88 III is a bargain for 
the price and has been very good for some of my senior customers at normal 
lengths to 46". And, I do like the Quad driver. It performs very well at normal 
lengths, as long hitting for me as my BOM at 47". But after more than a dozen 
rounds with it, I've found it's shape and more upright lie do not make the 
square head the best choice for consistent center impacts on longer drivers 
(47" and 48"). I'll use my Quad driver at 45" or less.

Bernie
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 



- Original Message - 
  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com 
  Sent: Friday, April 27, 2007 11:06 PM
  Subject: Re: ShopTalk: Square Drivers?


  In a message dated 4/26/2007 6:25:56 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL 
PROTECTED] writes:


Incidentally, the Quadratic fairway woods are really duds...very short 
hitting at normal club lengths. Much shorter hitting than my 10 year old 
Cydonia LCGs. Almost feel like pot metal when I hit the Quad fairways.

Bernie
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


  Hi Bernie,
  Im sorry to hear you did not fair well with the Quadratic fairway wds.
  This is the 1st negative comment I have heard about them.
  We have sold 100's of them and every one seems to be very impressed, they are 
available in a 3, 5, 7, 9 and most people who have bought 1 like them so much 
that they come back and by others.
  I personally replaced my Ping raptor 2 Hybrid shafted in a VS Proto with a 
Quadratic 9 wd in a Prolite fairway shaft and I could not be happier with the 
results.
  I mention this because based on your comments Ed has now said that they are a 
poor performer and it strikes me that now others may just write that club off 
as another dud, and although it didn't suit you, it suits me very well, and has 
been one of the more successful fairway wds we have ever offered and in no way 
shape or form would I consider it a dud.
  I have hit these side by side with Sonartech's, Wishon's, Kzg's and Vector 
III's which are the best we have and they take a back seat to none in my 
experience.
  Thanks,
  David


  **
  See what's free at http://www.aol.com. 

Re: ShopTalk: Square Drivers?

[Bernie Baymiller]

Ed,

Of course you know that I've made a lot of long drivers for seniors' golf 
course play here in Tellico Village and around my home area. So, I just want to 
express another personal opinion that, yes, there can be a performance problem 
with square heads when used on long drivers (47" and 48"). By moving many ccs 
to the rear left and right, the face is shallower than most round-shaped 
450cc-460cc heads. My Quad driver face is almost "rectangular" (long and not as 
high) and combined with a bit more upright lie which puts the toe up a fair 
amount at 47" and me at 5' 9" tall, makes for a very small, angled impact area. 
Even with a correctly aligned shaft at my preferred differential deflection, my 
near center impact consistency is less than with my more round BOM 460cc head. 
And, especially a fade swing with the square head doesn't go near as far for me 
as a straight or draw swing...unlike my BOM, which hits a fade swing ball 
almost as far as a draw swing ball. So, though I think the square head plays 
very well at normal lengths, its shape combined with an upright lie can hurt 
the square head's performance on a long driver. With a lie around 55° (a guess 
without checking) instead of the "near 60°" on the Quad, it might be a lot 
better for longer clubs...wish someone would offer one those at 195 grams. I 
hit the Quad very long for me, when I hit it on center.

Someone on a golf forum mentioned that Tiger wouldn't play a square-shaped 
Sumo, because he couldn't work the ball with it very well. Seems to me that's a 
performance problem for some players, too. Would any high MOI 460cc head give 
him the same problem? Comments?

Bernie
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  - Original Message - 
  From: Ed Reeder 
  To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com 
  Sent: Saturday, April 28, 2007 8:44 PM
  Subject: Re: ShopTalk: Square Drivers?


  David,
  Just to clarify.  I simply said that Bernie reported poor performance with a 
square fairway wood.  I've never hit a Quadratic.

  My only point was that the shape of a clubhead, in and of itself, is not a 
key performance factor.

  /Ed

Re: ShopTalk: Square Drivers?

[Bernie Baymiller]

Brian,

I tried 2 SRV II heads, a 10° and a 12°, on several shafts at several 
lengths in the last 4 years. It's a good head, but the Big Bang 450 and the 
Bang-O-Matic 460 are both a little better for distance and control for me. 
The BB is a real clanker but the ball goes a long way, the BOM has a good 
sound, more of a solid feeling "tink," and I get almost effortless distance 
when I catch it squarely in the center. If you want to try a 450cc 
inexpensive head that plays well at lengths 46" and under (not many light 
ones for long drivers), the Integra VS88 III does the job for $45. That's a 
head that seems to have slipped under the radar...probably plays as well for 
distance (or a little better if you have a slower swing speed) as the SRV II 
and is definitely more forgiving for me.


Bernie
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

- Original Message - 
From: "Brian Parkinson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: 
Sent: Friday, April 27, 2007 10:06 AM
Subject: RE: ShopTalk: Square Drivers?



I'm still looking for the perfect driver.

Actually, still using my Bang SRVII, but thought about moving up to 460cc 
(from 340).  Didn't know if the extra size, and in theory, the more 
forgiving square head, would get me more distance or consistency.


Probably just chasing my tail.

Brian H. Parkinson, CPA
Vice President of Finance
Ball Ventures, LLC
P.O. Box 51298
Idaho Falls, ID 83405
Ph (208) 523-3794
Fax (208) 227-0445
[EMAIL PROTECTED]



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
On Behalf Of Ed Reeder

Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2007 8:10 PM
To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com
Subject: Re: ShopTalk: Square Drivers?

Brian,
Just curious.  What is driving you (pun intended) to purchase a square
driver?

/Ed

Brian Parkinson wrote:

Has anyone tried the square drivers?

The one in particular that I'm considering is the Raven version.

I'm afraid I've only ever used Raven Irons.  Can you tell me if they
typically make good drivers, or any information about their square one
specifically.

The shaft I was considering was their platinum extreme, just because
it's heavier.

Any thoughts?

Brian H. Parkinson

Re: ShopTalk: Square Drivers?

[Bernie Baymiller]

Brian,

I've been trying out an Integra Quadratic on a 53 gram Graman FL-50R from a 
few years back (excellent ultralight performance) with a Winn midsize Excel 
at 47½" club length. The Quad hits the ball very well, about as long as my 
48" 460cc Bang-O-Matic/Pure Energy A/Winn Excel mid, but with a slightly 
lower trajectory for me. It looks good and seems to be reasonably well 
finished for a $79 head. But, after about 10 rounds with it, I think the 
more shallow-faced, square head design coupled with a 59° lie (toe up at the 
long length) doesn't work as well for long drivers as a rounded shape with a 
high MOI.


Incidentally, the Quadratic fairway woods are really duds...very short 
hitting at normal club lengths. Much shorter hitting than my 10 year old 
Cydonia LCGs. Almost feel like pot metal when I hit the Quad fairways.


Bernie
[EMAIL PROTECTED]




- Original Message - 
From: "Brian Parkinson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: 
Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2007 5:32 PM
Subject: RE: ShopTalk: Square Drivers?



Has anyone tried the square drivers?

The one in particular that I'm considering is the Raven version.

I'm afraid I've only ever used Raven Irons.  Can you tell me if they
typically make good drivers, or any information about their square one
specifically.

The shaft I was considering was their platinum extreme, just because
it's heavier.

Any thoughts?

Brian H. Parkinson

Re: ShopTalk: Light driver

[Bernie Baymiller]

Dean,

What were the specs on your best light driver? Head weight, shaft weight, 
total weight, swingweight and club length?


I've been playing a 194 gram Bang-O-Matic 460cc on a 58 gram Pure Energy A 
tipped an inch with a 43 gram Winn Excel midsize grip at 48" club length. 
When my timing's right, I hit it reasonably straight and 240 to 250 
including the roll.


Bernie
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

- Original Message - 
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: 
Sent: Friday, April 20, 2007 11:11 AM
Subject: Re: ShopTalk: Light driver



Bernie,
Been busy! Moved to a townhouse in larger town with several good
golf courses. Went to AZ for winter and just returned to SD. Hope
to play later today though its still windy and cool.

Played and won our senior championship a few years ago with my
light driver. Using a very relaxed swing I was very accurate with it.
Shot in the mid 70's. Have looked for a larger light head but they
just don't exist. Currently am using three different drivers. Does'nt
seem to make much difference, seems Ive lost another several yards
this year!
Dean

Quoting Bernie Baymiller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:


Dean,

Long time, no see. For sake of some discussion, how did that low weight
driver stuff you were working with a few years ago ever turn out?

Bernie
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: ShopTalk: Just checking

[Bernie Baymiller]

Dean,

Long time, no see. For sake of some discussion, how did that low weight 
driver stuff you were working with a few years ago ever turn out?


Bernie
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


- Original Message - 
From: "DeanS" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: 
Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2007 11:01 AM
Subject: ShopTalk: Just checking



No messages forever??
Just checking

Re: ShopTalk: Ugly Driver

[Bernie Baymiller]

I built a "square" 196 gram Integra Quadratic 10.5° on a 53 gram Graman 
FL-50 R from a few years back at 47½" club length, s/w D9 and total weight 
297 grams while rehabbing my new left knee and have been playing it very 
well (considering I hadn't played in a year). It's really not a bad looking 
head at all and very good distance with it makes it look even better. 
Doesn't look nearly as big as my Bang-O-Matic 460cc.


One unanticipated plus for the head is that the face is not too deep to play 
regular length tees. And, with the cg of the head not much below the center 
of the ball, its trajectory plays a little lower for me than my BOM 10.5°, 
which requires a longer tee. Today was windy (Weather Channel said 20 mph) 
and about 68°F, our Bermuda fairways are dead, dry and slippery. Downwind on 
our 365 yard, slightly dogleg left  #2 hole, I had a nice low draw drive 
about 230 to the top of a short hill, took a big bounce down the hill and 
ended up about 80 yards out. Into the wind, I was getting 230 on the 
well-hit low rollers. Of 14 drives with it today, I hit every fairway and 
only one poor 150 yard pop-up on an uphill par 5. (Funny thing was, I 
birdied that hole with a 7W 3rd shot from 140 yards out into the teeth of 
the wind to 12 feet from the pin.) I can fade and draw this Quad head, but 
not as much as my BOM. I think maybe there is a little bit of truth in the 
square shape "straightness" hype.


Bernie
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


- Original Message - 
From: "Dave Tutelman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: 
Sent: Monday, March 19, 2007 8:01 PM
Subject: Re: ShopTalk: Ugly Driver



At 03:53 PM 3/19/2007, Ed Reeder wrote:

My candidate for the ugliest driver currently on the market, the Hippo Hex
http://tinyurl.com/3b62t5

Truly bizarre!


Don't you just love the law of unintended consequences.

And the USGA is getting exactly what it deserves. They are trying to 
affect the LOOK of the game instead of protecting its basic integrity --  
which is their REAL job, the one they have been scared out of doing by 
Callaway's lawyers.


They have thrown together a number of rules in the last few years that 
they INTENDED to keep drivers looking "traditional". Their fear was the 
"turtle on a stick". So they limited the volume, and then added limit to 
the height and heel-toe size. And, of course, a long-standing rule that 
face-back cannot exceed heel-toe implicitly limited face-back. The result 
is a rectangular box that the driver head must fit inside.


Well, the designer's goal is not maximum volume; it is maximum MOI. The 
volume just got that way because a maximum-MOI design is one where the 
mass is farthest away from the center of gravity.


So what happens when you design a maximum-MOI shape given a constraint of 
a rectangular box that it must fit within? A RECTANGULAR DESIGN, of 
course.


I don't know how you could make anything LESS traditional looking. As I 
said, the USGA got what it deserved.


Cheers!
DaveT



--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.13/726 - Release Date: 3/18/2007 
3:34 PM

Re: ShopTalk: Ugly Driver

[Bernie Baymiller]

Ed,

Heck Ed, that driver head and today's high MOI putters are almost a perfect 
match. :-)


Bernie
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

- Original Message - 
From: "Ed Reeder" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: "clubmaker online" 
Sent: Monday, March 19, 2007 3:53 PM
Subject: ShopTalk: Ugly Driver



My candidate for the ugliest driver currently on the market, the Hippo Hex
http://tinyurl.com/3b62t5

Truly bizarre!

/Ed 

Re: ShopTalk: TESTING TESTING TESTING

[Bernie Baymiller]

RK,

Did you get this reply?

Bernie
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  - Original Message - 
  From: golf-equipment 
  To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com ; [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  Sent: Saturday, March 03, 2007 7:09 PM
  Subject: ShopTalk: TESTING TESTING TESTING


JUST TESTING TO SEE JUST WHY MY MESSAGES ARE NOT GETTING BACK TO MY 
COMPUTER.

RK 
   
   


imstp_chubbi_en_by_im.gif
Description: GIF image
<>

Re: ShopTalk: GRAPHITE SHAFT

[Bernie Baymiller]

Bob,
 
Tour Golf in Columbus also has (and has had) a Tour Series shaft line-up 
for several years. In the past, the line has been mostly sheet wrapped shafts, 
but last year they changed over to an all-filament wound line. I really liked 
several of the previous sheet-wrapped shafts. Most of the shafts 
through the entire line were reasonably consistent, were a solid Type 2 
with medium sized spines, NBPlane 90° from spine plane and very easy to FLO. The 
wood shafts, like their TS2.8 in particular, played very well aligned S1 to 
COG or NBP to target. They must have also been spined at the manufacturer, since 
all logos were centered on the spine.  I never tried the TSLW 400 (65-69 
grams), but have built 3 sets of irons with the TSLW 300A and L-flex (a 
steal at $5.65 on close-out last year). They've had a lot of zip and play to 
comparable distance of my A-2 Apache PM-30s, though slightly lower in 
trajectory. My NF4 data on the L-flex set for my wife (not together yet) shows 
raw load range varying from a reading of 3.94 kg to 4.16kg (7 shafts) and one 
outlier at 4.35kg. Think DT figured 0.03kg was about the equivalent of 1 
cpm...about half a flex variation from softest to stiffest NBP across the set of 
seven shafts. With the middle four shafts within 0.04kg, that set is very 
easy to match to the 3.94kg shaft. I found my set, an A-flex TSLW 300 iron shaft 
with similar consistency, plays as well as any graphite iron shaft I've tried. 
And, yes, with size of the spines in these shafts, they will wobble if not 
aligned NBP to target, but are very stable when aligned correctly. My impacts 
are small and centered on my set with the TSLW 300s. Also get consistent 
distances between clubs.
 
Don't know if the shaft you have is a Hireko shaft or not, but aboveTSLW 
300 info is a similar weight shaft to the TSLW 400, but medium launch and 
spin as opposed to the TSLW 400 low launch and spin. Tour Golf's Tour 
Series Lightweight is also listed as 2° torque. If you can e-mail me a pic, I'll 
be glad to compare the graphics to Tour Golf's TSLW 400...different 
logos in 2004 and 2005 to present.
 
BernieWrite to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Bob 
  Barrette 
  To: shop talk shop 
  Sent: Tuesday, November 07, 2006 8:55 
  AM
  Subject: ShopTalk: GRAPHITE SHAFT
  
  
  I had a Customer bring in his driver to see what I could do to lower his 
  ball flight, when I tried to frequency the shaft it was so erratic ( it 
  wobbled all over the place) I could not get a consistent measurement. I tried 
  to find info on this shaft online and came up empty. Has anyone heard of 
  this shaft? Tour Series Lightweight 400 67g. 2.0 torque. I vaguely remember 
  Hireko might of had a shaft named tour series.
  Thanks in advance.
  Bob www.golfbum70.com 
  

Re: ShopTalk: Wedge regrooving

[Bernie Baymiller]

Jeremy,

Here's a 2003 Shoptalk post from Dave Tutelman on DIY regrooving. Since I 
use my Dremel for lots of golf related stuff, I figured I might find his 
post useful:


"At 11:35 AM 12/5/03 -0800, Jacques Intriere wrote:

Dave,
How did you widen the grooves?"



"I've posted about this before, but it's always fun to talk about.

The maximum groove width allowed by the rules is .035".
The wedge as shipped had a groove width about .015" -- way smaller than
allowed. So I wanted to widen them.

I have a Dremel tool. The abrasive metal-cutting disks for this gadget are
.027" thick. So I ran the tool along the grooves. Clamped the head with the
face up and accessible. I freehanded it; the original grooves provided a
good guide for the blade. I cut until the disk settled down to the bottom
of the groove.

This gave me a U-groove .030" wide, just about right.

Hope this is clear.
DaveT"


Might be worth a try if you have a steady hand. :-)

Bernie

Re: ShopTalk: Spine Finder?

[Bernie Baymiller]

Ralph,
 
A spinefinder supposedly locates the most flexible plane in a 
shaft (called a neutral balance plane or NBP) and the stiffest plane in a 
shaft, which is generally called the spine. The device usually does that well 
for sheet wrapped graphite shafts (those which are an obvious type 2...with two 
neutral balance points opposite each other (the plane) on a spinefinder and 
two spine points opposite each other and 90° from the NBP). But, spine finders 
will be in error when the shaft is only slightly bent. Most steel shafts 
and some graphite shafts do have enough bend to throw a spinefinder off target. 
In this case, the spinefinder will locate the bend point by becoming stable at 
the outside of the bend.
 
A deflection measuring tool like the DIY Neufinder 4 uses a spinefinder, 
but had a preload mechanism to overcome this kind of spinefinder error and 
provides accurate readings of shaft deflection under a specific load.
 
Too much information? :-)

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Ralph R 
  To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com 
  Sent: Friday, August 11, 2006 11:56 
  AM
  Subject: ShopTalk: Spine Finder?
  What is a spine finder?

Re: ShopTalk: V2

[Bernie Baymiller]

Alan,

Maybe do a tip sensitivity and see what you get at a couple of points near 
the tip, like an inch and 2 inches. You can easily see how much the shaft 
stiffens up at those points in comparison with the raw shaft reading and 
that will help you decide if you need to trim or not.


Bernie
Write to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

- Original Message - 
From: "Alan Joyce" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: 
Sent: Friday, August 11, 2006 8:41 AM
Subject: ShopTalk: V2


I was wondering if tip trimming these new shaft make them play stiffer. I 
bought a regular flex and I have swing speed of 98 mph. I think I should 
have got a stiff. With the newer shafts having  different designs in the 
graphite layering, does the "old" tip trimming still work. Thanks

Re: ShopTalk: Tiger's Swing at 4,000 Frames Per Second

[Bernie Baymiller]

Alan,

I didn't leave out an "s"...that's the way his name is spelled on two typed 
photo captions...one on a BJ Sroke-ometer graph and also the Stroke-ometer 
graph of an "average golfer." Google confirms Germeshausen. Guess Spalding 
didn't know how to spell his name either. :-)


Bernie
Write to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

- Original Message - 
From: "Alan Brooks" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: 
Sent: Tuesday, July 25, 2006 9:47 PM
Subject: Re: ShopTalk: Tiger's Swing at 4,000 Frames Per Second


Bernie, your fingers are getting old.  You left out an 's'.  It's 
Germeshausen.  One of my first jobs out of graduate school was for a small 
R&D company in Albuquerque.  Our main offices (most of our work was at 
facilities on Kirtland AFB) were on Pennsylvania Avenue and Edgerton, 
Germeshausen, and Grier offices were next door.  That name took up a lot 
of space over the doorway.  It soon was shortened to EG&G.  I never knew 
any of the principals and its unlikely they spent much time there.  EG&G 
was doing research for the military, as we were, and their offices weren't 
much more than a storefront to establish a mailing address and a place to 
sit for some contract support personnel.


Regards,

Alan Brooks


At 09:26 PM 7/25/2006 -0400, you wrote:

Dave,

Ha! You did it the easy way. :-) I figured 4/10,000 is ten times faster 
than 4/1000 and 8 photos instead of one equals 80. See why I wasn't an 
engineer? :-)


Yes, after looking up the captions on the actual photos, the BJ iron 
sequence interval is 1/100th and the wood sequence is 1/600th. And, I do 
know the correct spelling...that was a typo. The photo team included Dr. 
Harold Edgerton, K.J. Germehausen and H.E. Grier, all of MIT. Arthur D. 
Little, Inc. were the consulting engineers.


Bernie
Write to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

- Original Message - From: "Dave Tutelman" 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: 
Sent: Tuesday, July 25, 2006 7:16 PM
Subject: Re: ShopTalk: Tiger's Swing at 4,000 Frames Per Second



At 05:34 PM 7/25/2006, Bernie Baymiller wrote:
They make it sound like it is really high tech stuff, but the last pic 
in the BJ series on the Resource page that shows 8 pics of ball impact 
on a wood head which were taken in 4/10,000 of a second. Edgetton's 
group from MIT took them at A.G.Spalding & Bros. in 1938 or 1939, I 
think. I'm no math wiz, but what's that80 times faster?


8 frames in 4/10,000 sec is 20,000 frames per sec. That's 5 times faster 
than the camera used for the Nike pictures, and 25 times faster than the 
samples they actually used.


BTW, that should be "Edgerton".

The multi-flash time exposure of BJ swinging an iron (and wood...can't 
remember what is there at the moment) was 1/100,000 of a second per 
frame.


That's the effective shutter speed, not the frame rate. Looking at the 
picture, the frame rate was probably in the range of 100-150 frames per 
sec.


(Doc Edgerton was still around at MIT when I showed up to do graduate 
work in 1962. I was assigned to be his research assistant, because my 
hobby experience with photography was a good match to the work in his 
lab. I spent a day with him and we hit it off very well. But eventually I 
had to turn down the assistantship when Bell Labs offered me a full ride 
as part of a job offer that I really wanted. I remained friends with Doc 
during my year at MIT.)


Cheers!
DaveT


--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.4/396 - Release Date: 7/24/2006

Re: ShopTalk: Tiger's Swing at 4,000 Frames Per Second

[Bernie Baymiller]

Dave,

Ha! You did it the easy way. :-) I figured 4/10,000 is ten times faster than 
4/1000 and 8 photos instead of one equals 80. See why I wasn't an engineer? 
:-)


Yes, after looking up the captions on the actual photos, the BJ iron 
sequence interval is 1/100th and the wood sequence is 1/600th. And, I do 
know the correct spelling...that was a typo. The photo team included Dr. 
Harold Edgerton, K.J. Germehausen and H.E. Grier, all of MIT. Arthur D. 
Little, Inc. were the consulting engineers.


Bernie
Write to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

- Original Message - 
From: "Dave Tutelman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: 
Sent: Tuesday, July 25, 2006 7:16 PM
Subject: Re: ShopTalk: Tiger's Swing at 4,000 Frames Per Second



At 05:34 PM 7/25/2006, Bernie Baymiller wrote:
They make it sound like it is really high tech stuff, but the last pic in 
the BJ series on the Resource page that shows 8 pics of ball impact on a 
wood head which were taken in 4/10,000 of a second. Edgetton's group from 
MIT took them at A.G.Spalding & Bros. in 1938 or 1939, I think. I'm no 
math wiz, but what's that80 times faster?


8 frames in 4/10,000 sec is 20,000 frames per sec. That's 5 times faster 
than the camera used for the Nike pictures, and 25 times faster than the 
samples they actually used.


BTW, that should be "Edgerton".

The multi-flash time exposure of BJ swinging an iron (and wood...can't 
remember what is there at the moment) was 1/100,000 of a second per frame.


That's the effective shutter speed, not the frame rate. Looking at the 
picture, the frame rate was probably in the range of 100-150 frames per 
sec.


(Doc Edgerton was still around at MIT when I showed up to do graduate work 
in 1962. I was assigned to be his research assistant, because my hobby 
experience with photography was a good match to the work in his lab. I 
spent a day with him and we hit it off very well. But eventually I had to 
turn down the assistantship when Bell Labs offered me a full ride as part 
of a job offer that I really wanted. I remained friends with Doc during my 
year at MIT.)


Cheers!
DaveT


--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.4/396 - Release Date: 7/24/2006

Re: ShopTalk: Tiger's Swing at 4,000 Frames Per Second

[Bernie Baymiller]

Ed,

4,000 frames per second is way too slow to see clubhead and shaft 
behavior!


Very true. They make it sound like it is really high tech stuff, but the 
last pic in the BJ series on the Resource page that shows 8 pics of ball 
impact on a wood head which were taken in 4/10,000 of a second. Edgetton's 
group from MIT took them at A.G.Spalding & Bros. in 1938 or 1939, I think. 
I'm no math wiz, but what's that80 times faster? The multi-flash time 
exposure of BJ swinging an iron (and wood...can't remember what is there at 
the moment) was 1/100,000 of a second per frame. It's a shame nobody 
realizes just how good and honest the golf equipment research was at many 
companies 70 years ago.


Bernie
Write to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: ShopTalk: ESPN's coverage - a rant.

[Bernie Baymiller]

Yeah, Tom. Blah...blah...blah. CBS is just as bad as ESPN. The Braves color 
announcer when they are on Fox is just as bad, too. It's gettin' hard to watch 
any sports on TV anymore...only watch the Braves when Sutton, Skip or Chip 
is announcing on one of the Turner stations. Turned on the Open after lunch and 
after 10 minutes went and took a nap.  You're right...nothing like seeing 
player after player slamming his club on the bag or shaking his head. The course 
looks lousy on TV anyway...too flat and uninteresting. Tall trees, narrowed 
fairways, too much rough and poor vantage points for TV cameras. Five inch rough 
against the gree collars? C'mon. Winning the US Open doesn't take a lot of skill 
anymore, it takes a lot of luck. Why can't they leave the course like the better 
playing members (or customers) play it and see if "these guys really are any 
good." 
 
That's about what they do for the Nationwide Tour's Knoxville Open being 
played this weekend at Fox Den. It's a beautiful, fairly long, slightly hilly 
golf course in excellent shape. Fairways are narrowed slightly, but 
it's not tricked up and there were 281 birdies there yesterdaya slew of 
65s and 66s leading. Tickets $10. If I could walk at all, the wife and I 
would have gone over. It's a much more interesting tournament than the US Open 
being played on that shoreline cow pasture.
 
Back to my nap...or maybe I'll go up to the range and see if I can hit some 
balls. Haven't played a round of golf since February 3, but I can now make a 
couple of small buckets before the knee gives out.
 
BernieWrite to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]