[biofuel] Re: Drink Water From Dehumidifier?

[Curtis Sakima]

Kinda funny you get grossed out by the dehumidifier water.   Not saying it
is clean ... no, not by a long shot.   However, just think ... the stuff all
stuck on the dehumidifier coil ... are in a large part ... the same stuff
INHALED by that same observer  grossing out at the sight of the coils.
Funny how we gross out so easily looking at condesing coils  yet not
flinch talking story with our friends (and taking deep breaths) ... sitting
NEXT to those same coils.

Curtis

Nothing says "I love you" like a bouquet of flowers!
http://www.flowerson55.com



- Original Message -
From: Richard U <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>


First I'd like to say...e This water is probably full of all kind of
nasty things, and would need to be "processed" (perhaps just a ceramic type
filter) This is part of the potable water source on the space station, in
which case it is recovered from respiration and perspiration...again I say,
e.

Have you considered a mushroom farm in your basement, very lucrative.





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[biofuel] Re: Fahrenheit 9/11

[Curtis Sakima]

Frankly, I think Bush himself did 9/11.   Ok ... so he did not directly
"push the button".   But IMHO ... he "enabled" it. and "surgically
enhanced" it.

IMHO  he WANTED the WTC down (for reasons listed by Dave).So he
"arranged" it to "go down".   He had DEMOLITION CHARGES set up in it  so
that at-a-push-of-a-button .BOOM.   The building would be uh
"renovated".   All he needed was a "REASON" the-building-came-down.  Much
like killing someone during a 4th of July Skyrocket show  so that the
rocket booming would cover up the sound of your gunshot.Purposely
"turning a blind eye" to the terrorist's planning the WTC's demise .
knowing FULL WELL . that the planes crashing would be a PERFECT COVER
for pushing the demolition charge button.   And providing a convenient
"reason" the American Public  could "blame".

IMHO, this is the real truth behind 9/11.   And frankly, I don't know how
'ol GW can sleep at night after ordering this.  Maybe he thinks he's part of
some "higher purpose" or something.  And that the victims of the WTC are
just "collateral damage".   Who knows 

Curtis

Nothing says "I love you" like a bouquet of flowers!
http://www.flowerson55.com



- Original Message -
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Hello everyone,

I'm new to this list.

Has it occurred to any of you that maybe George already knew that the
planes were going to hit the towers. I wonder if this is true because
if you look at who gained most out the that disaster then it is
undoubtedly the Bush administration. Greater control of the population,
an increase in the military budget and the ability to invade a country
that just happens to be strategically placed for the building of an oil
pipeline. In fact Hamid Karzai, the president of Afghanistan, is a
former advisor to the oil company, Unocal, which planned to build an
oil and gas pipeline from the Caspian Sea region across western
Afganistan to the Arabian Sea coast of Pakistan, but could not do while
the Taliban were in power. And where is the evidence that Osama Bin
Laden did it? I haven't seen any, just the repeated mantra 'Bin Laden
did it'.

9/11 also made it virtually impossible for any country to oppose the
U.S. after Bush said you're either with us or against us. This made the
invasion of Iraq so much easier. And having British and US troops in
Iraq, Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia is obviously very good from the view
point of someone who wants to control that region. I wonder who will be
next, Iran or Syria?

Love,

Dave.





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[biofuel] Choices?? What choices?? Was: Fahrenheit 9/11

[Curtis Sakima]

My my my ..

This debate EPITOMIZES . exactly the problem I feel this country has.
No more does it contain any remnant of (American) Republicans  nor
(American style) Democrats.   Those two ideologics are HISTORY.

Now, we only have BUSH ... who in my opinion ... is NOT a conservative ...
nor a Republican.  But a  (Hitler) FASCIST.

...And the ANTI-Bush  who in my opinion all-along ...  are (USSR)
SOCIALISTS.

What a choice in November!  Vote President Hitler or President Soviet!

BTW, the comment about the Corporate Tax Structure "rewarding" the
"eliminating of American Jobs" is not quite correct.  More correctly, it
"penalizes" the use of "American Jobs".And the Corporation  of
course ... the "job still has to get done" . searches around and finds
that "foreign labor" . SH  nothing gets spoken about it.
So  "foreign labor"  becomes a way to "do the job" without getting
"penalized".I would like to add  "unfortunately".  Very, VERY ...
"unfortunately".

Curtis
Corporation Bean Counter

Nothing says "I love you" like a bouquet of flowers!
http://www.flowerson55.com



- Original Message -
From: Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

>But. what would you expect from
>a Social Democrat like Moore, just another variation on the National
>Socialist Workers Party line and a parroting of their leader.

:-) Well now, there's the Socialist Workers Party, the Socialist Party USA,
the National Socialist Japanese Workers Party, the Iran National-Socialist
Workers Party and so on, but what exactly is the National Socialist Workers
Party?

-message truncated--




- Original Message -
From: William Dwyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

While emphatically disagreeing with the heckler's destructive non-solution,
  had to unfortunately conclude that economic recovery for
the City of Flint, Michigan won't become reality in the foreseeable future
as long as the corporate tax structure continues to reward industry for
eliminating American jobs in favor of cheaper foreign labor.

-snip-

During his Military service in the European and African theatres of World
War II,  saw firsthand the hideous
consequences of the merger of corporate influence (including the influence
of members of the Bush family dating back to their Civil War era railroad
interests) and military force.

-snip-

Benito Mussolini said, "Fascism should more properly be called corporatism
because it is the merger of state and corporate power."  The Bush
administration has removed the velvet glove from the iron fist and slapped
it across the face of the average American in a brazen challenge of the
ultimate authority We the People exercise at the ballot box. Furthermore,
they have deliberately and premeditatively manipulated America's economy in
a concerted effort to limit employment options, toward the ultimate goal of
making cannon fodder an attractive job title for many able-bodied Americans.
As Abraham Lincoln, another Republican President, indeed the very first
member of the Grand Old Party that has become a Greedy Oil Party to claim
the title, once said, "Ballots are the rightful and peaceful successor to
bullets."  Michael Moore is a true visionary leader in the fight to preserve
and defend the benefits of liberty and democracy for the American
proletariat from America's increasingly greedy, bloodthirsty, and fascist
bourgeoisie.









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Re: [biofuel] 100% ethanol

[Curtis Sakima]

[biofuel] Re: PLEASE READ - MODERATOR'S MESSAGE

[Curtis Sakima]

[Edited to change subject heading - KA]

No problem Keith.

Though I did wonder "what da heck." when it happened.

Curtis

Nothing says "I love you" like a bouquet of flowers!
http://www.flowerson55.com



- Original Message -
From: Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Dear all

My apologies for this ghastly flood of old messages we've all been subjected
to in the last 24 hours.





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[biofuel] Closing the loop Was: Making Methanol from Glycerin

[Curtis Sakima]

Hmmm.  I wonder if it's possible to convert biomass to Methanol (THEN the
resulting methanol plus WVO equals Biodiesel)

That would make it possible to make Biodiesel without relying on
"commercial" anything-at-all.   Living "totally off-the-land".

Curtis

Nothing says "I love you" like a bouquet of flowers!
http://www.flowerson55.com



- Original Message -
From: balaji <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

> I have worked with the biomass gasification process for quite a few years
>and the conversion efficiency  of biomass carbon to methanol is more in the
>20% region.  Check

Was your work on up, down or crossdraft ? Did you use it for powergeneration
or for thermal energy only ? What was the process followed forconversion of
syngas tomethanol ? What were the stage wise yields of methanol and the
energybalance?






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[biofuel] The Queda Was: Cheney, Bush and Iraq 9/11 links

[Curtis Sakima]

I've heard reports that "Al Queda"  is not really an "organization" 
well, not in the usual sense of the word
(President/Vice/Treasurer/Generals/Sargeants/Leutenants/ETC).

In fact (on that same report) ... it was said that there is catagorically
"not" that much difference between "Al Queda" .. and  "just a bunch
of beer drinking individuals having a common rant/grumble ranting at a local
bar".   Supposedely, this is what makes  "Al Queda" .. SO-SO-SO
difficult to detect with intellegence.  You have to sit at that bar for
hours.  To see what chuckles are a code word for "Flight 11"  as
well as which belch meant that the target was the north tower (and not the
south tower) of the WTC.In other words, "Intellegence" meant listening
to  "normal" conversation of "normal" people . and "reading"
meaning into it.

Curtis

Nothing says "I love you" like a bouquet of flowers!
http://www.flowerson55.com



- Original Message -
From: biobenz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Ok, and now just WHOM is "Al Queda" REALLY ?





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Re: [biofuel] France and legislation

[Curtis Sakima]

Why??

Curtis

Nothing says "I love you" like a bouquet of flowers!
http://www.flowerson55.com



- Original Message -
From: Jerome Mathevet <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

... since you can't produce your own electricity in France (you have to sell
it to the state company instead).





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Re: [biofuel] Biodiesel in non-diesel engines

[Curtis Sakima]

E-85 is like gasoline ... made for spark ignition.
Biodiesel is like dinodiesel  made for compression-ignition.

I'm not sure if that'll work.

Curtis

Nothing says "I love you" like a bouquet of flowers!
http://www.flowerson55.com



- Original Message -
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

I am new to this group & have an interest in using biodiesel fuel,however,
none of my vehicles has a diesel engine. The closest thing I have is the
3.3L V6 engine in my mini van that will run on E-85. Can biodiesel be used
by adding it to the gas or am I just S.O.L.???





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[biofuel] My $0.02 Was: Comments please

[Curtis Sakima]

My Dad always has one favorite comment I'll always remember:

"Son, the most profitable way to do ANYTHING  is to:
1. Find what's already there. (Pre-processing costs)
2. Use it up (Economizing usage costs)
3. Throw it away. (Recycling/waste-processing costs)"

NOTHING  repeat, NOTHING will beat the 1,2,3 above  if analyse
STRICTLY from a so-called 'profit'  point-of-view.

Biofuels/Solar/Hydro/etc. and other Bio/Natural/renewable sources of energy
are like to energy .. as like a job is to money.  You put effort in (go to
work) ... you get an output (paycheck).The pay rate is small ... yes.
But it keeps on coming out ... year after year.  Reliably . as long as the
effort is put in (sustainably??).

Oil, OTOH, is like an inheritance.  The product of millions of hours put in
by past generations.  Stored up over the years.  All in one big savings
account.  And then saying that "inheritance (oil) has a very high Energy
(money) Profit Ratio  as high as 100 to 1".   This means it takes one
unit of energy (the effort in signing your name on a savings withdrawal
slip) to produce 100 (thousand dollars) units.

That is  until the inheritance runs out.

Curtis

Nothing says "I love you" like a bouquet of flowers!
http://www.flowerson55.com



- Original Message -
From: Grahams <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Unfortunately, the ability of renewable energy to replace oil is based more
in myth and fantasy than science and reality.

Oil has had an Energy Profit Ratio as high as 100 to 1. This means it takes
one unit of energy to produce 100 units. None of the
alternatives have EPR's
that even approach that of oil. Some of the alternatives, such as
Hydr
ogen are energy losers, while others, such as biodiesel, barely break even.

Furthermore, almost every advocate of alternative energy fails to realize
two absolutely key points:





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Re: [biofuel] Lung ingestion from depleted uranium

[Curtis Sakima]

Or (speaking on Iraq at the time) ... "any time a country goes after
producing and using such devices . it's time for regime change!!"


H.

Curtis

Nothing says "I love you" like a bouquet of flowers!
http://www.flowerson55.com



- Original Message -
From: jgnat1488 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Aint it nice that the UN lists "DU" as a "weapon of mass destruction"? Why
do we (the us) use the same class of weapons that we are supposed to be
going after? I love this country but can't stand governmental BS! end of
rant






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Re: [biofuel] Lung ingestion from depleted uranium

[Curtis Sakima]

"When a DU shell hits its target, it burns, losing anywhere from 40 percent
to 70 percent of its mass and dispersing a fine toxic radioactive dust that
can be carried long distances by winds or absorbed into the soil and
groundwater"

My question is  why don't we just call "DU" for what it is:  A
"radioactive dirty bomb".

Didn't someone get arrested for doing one of those??

Hmm

Curtis

Nothing says "I love you" like a bouquet of flowers!
http://www.flowerson55.com



- Original Message -
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

The fact that depleted uranium is absorbed in "soil and groundwater"...

I have not heard this source of radioactive contamination.

However, it is, in the accompanying article,  as if don't worry about it
unless you ingest it from eating and drinking.

The article follows:

More quietly, American soldiers also are beginning to suffer injuries from a
silent and pernicious weapon material of U.S. origin-depleted uranium (DU).

When a DU shell hits its target, it burns, losing anywhere from 40 percent
to 70 percent of its mass and dispersing a fine toxic radioactive dust that
can be carried long distances by winds or absorbed into the soil and
groundwater.






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[biofuel] Another empire bites the dust?? Was: US poll about Iraq war

[Curtis Sakima]

All this talk is making me wonder if the U.S. is being viewed less and less
as an emergence of a "great nation" ... and more and more as "evil
corporation from-its-infancy-in-the-first-place"  with history rewritten
to simply make-it-look-good.   This second "reality" would imply that the
solution-to-the-problem  would be to dismantle the heart of the US 
and have it simply "fall" much like Soviet Union.   Then having its innards
assimulated  into the "World Community".

Curious.

Curtis

Nothing says "I love you" like a bouquet of flowers!
http://www.flowerson55.com



- Original Message -
From: Hakan Falk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Ryan,

The majority of the list members are not from US, so I do not really think
that you would want an answer on this question. LOL

Hakan



At 00:19 17/05/2004, Ryan wrote:

OK, enough already.  I won't make the same mistake again and post MHOs on
this list.  How any of you can sit there and say you have not directly
benefited from the colonization of the land that now makes up the USA is
beyond me, but OK.  Now, shall we get back to biofuels?

Thank you,

Ryan






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Re: [biofuel] OT: Food for thought, John Stossel's New Book, Give Me a Break

[Curtis Sakima]

Well, I for one are not surprise with anyone's reactions.  But I will say
this:

One of my jobs is life is to be a "bean counter" in one of the local
Corporations  here around town.  And from my job I KNOW  where all
the money disappears to.   Why the high prices consumers pay  down to
the seemingly miniscule wages the employees get.

I'll give you a hint.   It ain't going where everybody thinks it does.



Curtis

Dazzle Mom this coming Mother's Day season with flowers!
http://www.flowerson55.com



- Original Message -
From: Ryan Morgan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Really, whay do you say that?  Did you read his book?  Frankly, I'm a little
bit surprised by your reaction, Keith.

Cheers,

Ryan



-Original Message-
From: Keith Addison [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Stossel's a liar and a cheat, just another industry front-man, close links
with the usual suspects, no integrity.

Keith






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[biofuel] Re: International Hydrogen Drive 2004 Event!!

[Curtis Sakima]

I dunno  just seemed an appropriate forum to post it.

Curtis

Dazzle Mom this coming Mother's Day season with flowers!
http://www.flowerson55.com



- Original Message -
From: Neoteric Biofuels Inc <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

 So, maybe we should join Dennis?

BTW, Is he going to ride his horse? That was pretty sustainable until  we
had too many people and too few of them willing to clean up behind  the
things





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[biofuel] Fw: International Hydrogen Drive 2004 Event!!

[Curtis Sakima]

"For some reason" . I thought I should post this here 

Curtis

Dazzle Mom this coming Mother's Day season with flowers!
http://www.flowerson55.com



- Original Message - 
From: Janet Ritz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Hi Everyone!

I want to let you all know about an important event that needs
everyone's support:

Actor Dennis Weaver's International Hydrogen Drive 2004 (which will
include both hydrogen fuel cell and internal combustion, hybrid and 
bio-diesel vehicles) is confirmed!! This is a very important cause 
that is involving celebrities and politicians, but it needs more 
visibility among the actual environmental groups!

The link is http://www.hydrogendrive.com

The IHD2004 is an international caravan (with major stars and
national political figures) -- all driving new alternative fuel
vehicles to bring visibility to the progress manufacturers have made
and the viability of these alternative vehicles. Both celebrities
and politicians are signing up to become involved.

It will start in LA on June 28th, wind down to Mexico, then back up
through California, Oregon, Washington, finally finishing up in
Vancouver on July 12th. MSNBC will be covering it and there will be
26 celebrity rallies, along the way! (As well as future caravans to
be scheduled for other parts of the country, coming soon!).

Here are the reasons I'm asking everyone to check out IHD2004:

1. IHD2004 is an important kickoff for the Geo-Political-
Environmentalism (G-P-E) movement -- which is publicizing the
philosophy that we will never truly be safe until we have no further
dependence on resources from the Middle East (i.e. no more need for
oil).

2. IHD2004 will be bringing visibility to the fact that the new
alternative fuel cars now include all shapes and sizes and sources of
fuels and that many states are now setting up hydrogen highways
(alternative fueling stations every 20 miles, along their own main
highways, so people can fill up, as they go)!

3. My involvement: In addition to being a strong supporter of
alternative fuels, I am also a TV/Film composer (in my day job :o)
The International Hydrogen Drive is using my music (
http://janetritz.com/songs.htm ) for their theme song and, frankly,
I'm hoping it will encourage people to check out more of my music and
spread the word (as I make my living on cd sales), so I can afford to 
continue my environmental work. If you're interested, please check 
out both http://www.JanetRitz.com and the Highlights box at 
http://hydrogendrive.com .

4. These drives have FREE celebrity rallies, along the way, and are a
super way to have FUN and meet great people!

Please check out the above links, tell everyone you know about
IHD2004, also support my music site (http://www.janetritz.com), as 
that is the only way I can afford to continue my environmental work 
and please! forward this email to all interested parties!!

Thanks!

Janet Ritz
http://www.janetritz.com
http://www.hydrogendrive.com





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Re: [biofuel] Biodiesel Class Tour... coming Re: biodiesel class

[Curtis Sakima]

I would go  if the drive weren't a thousand miles!!   'Always wanted to
watch how it's done  "live".

LOL,

Curtis

Dazzle Mom this coming Mother's Day season with flowers!
http://www.flowerson55.com



- Original Message -
From: girl_mark_fire <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

I've gotten quite a flurry of off-list interest from people in other areas
of the country who want to host a workshop due to my biodiesel class 'tour'
rumors. Here's some of my other plans:





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Re: [biofuel] Gasoline / alcohol grade fuel from WVO

[Curtis Sakima]

Awhile back, there were articles describing "zeolite"(??) catalysts which
cracked methanol ... into gasoline.Ethanol also maybe??


Curtis

Dazzle Mom this coming Mother's Day season with flowers!
http://www.flowerson55.com



- Original Message -
From: Rodney Hadley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Is it possible to produce a gasoline or alcohol grade
fuel from WVO? Biomass can be fermented and tuned into
ethanol, raw petroleum oil can be distilled into
gasoline ... etc. How far can we go?






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[biofuel] Taxes Was: America: The land of conspicuous consumption and a really twisted tax schedule...

[Curtis Sakima]

Yes, Walt it right.  In fact, I'll go one step beyond that.  Tax, by how
it's calculated, is only a war that goes on between government ... and
individual.  Tax is merely a "bubble" (my stupid term!) that surrounds each
and every individual.   Money comes in through the bubble ... it gets
"income" taxed before it gets handed to the individual.   Money tries to
leave the bubble ... it gets "sales" taxed.   Tax tax tax.

Corporations .. and the concept of corporation ... has nothing at ALL to do
with taxes.   Taxes are only a individual/government thing.  I suspect the
reason legislative bodies call certain money collections "corporate" tax
 is to fan the flames of hatred.  Portraying Corporations as some "evil
empire" .. "getting away" with paying "no taxes".   Just so that there would
be a "public outcry" for "higher taxes".  Which, after all is said and done,
(wham-bang) lands on the lap of every individual (again).  Because as I have
said before ... taxes are only a individual vs government phenomena.

Flame me all you like.  But one of my jobs in life is to "do the numbers" of
a Corporation here in town.  And the job has been a real eye-opener.  How
government reaches into the company ... STEALS individual EMPLOYEES' hard
earned dollars ... yet labels it the (ahem ahem ahem) "Corporate Tax Bill".
THEN, when the employee wonders why the monies set aside for him are so
small, THE GOVERNMENT HAS THE AUDACITY to tell the employee "it's cause he
has a greedy employer".   When all along, TONS of money get set aside for
employees for their hard work   And they would get it too ... if it weren't
for sticky government hands INTERCEPTING it BEFORE he got it.

Every wonder why companies call Americans "The World's most Expensive
Employees"  and yet Americans themselves complaining of "getting so
little"

Mystery solved.

Curtis

- Original Message -
From: Walt Patrick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Darryl and Todd, what you both seem to be missing is that a corporation,
can't by its very nature, pay taxes - all it can do is to collect them from
its customers and pass them along to the government.

When government artificially raises the cost of doing business, that cost
is just passed on. The bottom-line reality is that all across-the-board
expenses associated with any industry are born by the customer. Populous
smoke and mirrors aside, all a tax on corporate income adds up to is a
regressive tax on their customers.

Walt
http://www.windward.org/





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[biofuel] Let's clarify this Was: Bush administration fudging data top scientists warn

[Curtis Sakima]

Gee Todd, you're not advocating that the U.N.  "SHOULD" 
merge us all into
one-big "World Government"  are you??

IMHO, having all nation leaders reduced to "Global Senators" in some kind of
"Global-level Senate" (U.N.) is NOT something that we need.

Curtis


- Original Message -
From: Appal Energy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

> What does the UN have to gain, well they
> want to be the world government and they are certainly using scare
> tactics.

Who really cares? Does anyone honestly believe that they could do a worse
job than the fractionalized, self-serving pontificates that are presently
snotting all over humanity? Not that it will ever happen to even a remote
degree that so many people decry in their not-so-fleeting moments of
paranoia. But it is high time that nation-states began to acknowledge that
the consequences of their actions don't simply stop at their borders.





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[biofuel] GMO'S Was: Bush administration fudging data top scientists warn

[Curtis Sakima]

The problem with GMO's is that it allows food to be 
"patented" .. and slowly
shuts out "normally grown food" away from the average joe.  This puts the
"ownership" of our world food supply ...into the hands of an elite few.
The few who will have the power and authority to say "now do your work ...
if you wanna EAT"...

Curtis


- Original Message -
From: Lillie Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

We in the US are eating it. GMO provides more yield without as much harmful
pesticides and saves land area which allows more forests to consume any
excess co2. I'm no expert but it sounds like a good thing. What's wrong with
profit? Without it there would be no economy.

Lillie




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[biofuel] Worms?? Was: Bush administration fudging data top scientists warn

[Curtis Sakima]

Talk about opening a can of worms ... Gee Todd.  All this 
talk about "Mother
Nature (she??) being Scarred" ... Science with Dioxin.   We're getting close
to ANOTHER can of worms Todd.You know which one!!  the one with
Mother Earth God  Gaia ...

Remember way back when???

Curtis


- Original Message -
From: Appal Energy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Something is askew with that thought process. I suppose that's why species
that become extinct as a result human behavior never return? Because nature
can take care of herself? No. Nature can adjust in the aftermath of human
wrought devastations. But that certainly doesn't mean that she won't be
scarred or eviscerated beyond repair in many circumstances.

Well..., anyway..., science can neither assist or erode. It's the
application of science wherein gain or loss lay. Can you spell "nucular?" It
 is, after all, science and its abuse that brought us dioxin, PCBs, mercury
advisories, Minimata disease, etc., etc., ad infinitum. You speak of humans
who can't control their own foibles in the political arena but somehow think
that humans are devoid of their same faults in the scientific arena?

Uh..., me thinks you just opened a really monstrous can of worms that
you have virtually no support for.




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[biofuel] Addicted Was:: Moral Dilemma...

[Curtis Sakima]

"Evil", I don't think is the correct word.   More like 
"addiction" .. maybe.
When you realize .. that all ya gotta do ... is give the word.   And
although a million people you don't even know ... die ... WOW LOOK AT
THAT(!!) ... my BANK ACCOUNT ... goes up by say about $100,000.   It then
becomes "scarily easy".   Then you take a deep breath ... and inhale
GODHOOD.And now that you're "up there" ... way up there at 30,000 feet
... the million or so dying look like little ants.  And a million or so
LITTLE ANTS dying "ain't so bad".  Pretty soon ... you're rationalizing.

Now it's so easy  now you can't stop.

Curtis

- Original Message -
From: Kris Book <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Until that day, remember virtually all politics/governments are evil and
not looking out for anyone except the top 1% of the moneyholders.

kris





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Re: [biofuel] Re: Moral Dilemma...

[Curtis Sakima]

The WoMD-justified attack on Pearl-Baghdad.   A day which 
will live in Iraqi
INFAMY.  Sounds pretty eerie ... saying it like that.

Reminds me of what my Dad use to always say.

"When the White Man attacks the Indian Village ... it's called a MILITARY
VICTORY.
When the Indians attack a White Village ... it's called a MASSACRE".

Curtis


- Original Message -
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Those who feel the pre-emptive surpise attack on Iraq, killing thousands of
civilians, was morally justified cite the following beliefs.  If they were
sincerely held, even if not supported by facts, then the war was justified.

1. Saddam Hussein was a nasty man.

---snip--


I am old enough to remember December 7, 1941, when the Japanese staged a
pre-emptive surprise attack on the U.S fleet at Peral Harbor, killing 254
civilians.  They sincerely believed the following:

1.  FDR was a nasty man.


--message truncated-





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Re: [biofuel] pagans

[Curtis Sakima]

But doesn't the Jew historic line lead up to modern 
CHRISTIANITY??

Sumerian War-God ---> Jews --> Judeo-CHRISTIANS???

Curtis



- Original Message - 
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Why are Pagans and Athiests lumped in the same phrase?
The god of the Jews,btw, evolved from an old Sumarian god of war, who 
liked blood sacrifices, especialy the enemys..
 
H.





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Moral Dilemma??? Was:: [biofuel] Moral Dilemma...

[Curtis Sakima]

I don't believe this thread.  If I found George W.
"Hitler-M16-the-Jews-and-kick-em-into-mass-graves" Bush moaning under the
rubble of the fallen WTC  I'm sorry  I would still attempt to rescue
him.

I look at it this way.   Whatever he "may" or "may-not" have done guys ...
that's between HIM and DEITY.  And come Judgement Day (or what have you), it
will be HIM to answer you know  NOT ME.MY TEST ... IMHO .. will
simply be that I "saw an injured man".   And "what did I do about it".  That
is my test.

I'm starting to get rather annoyed.  About all this talk of (what should I
call it??) "Playing God".   Determining whether a man "should live or die".
I mean .. who are we??

Well ... that's my $0.02 

Curtis


- Original Message -
From: Appal Energy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

I believe a good number have already placed Shrub a little lower on the food
chain than perhaps you would. I'm just curious as to how low of a piece of
goat scrod someone would have to be to qualify for lack of assistance.

Todd Swearingen




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[biofuel] My email's back Was: Spin Was: everything in their power

[Curtis Sakima]

I'm sorry, I must've missed something  been having problem with my PC.
"Whose hand is on the button" .. what question of mine did that answer??

Puzzled,

Curtis

Get your free newsletter at
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- Original Message -
From: Steve Spence <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Sunday, October 27, 2002 3:46 PM
Subject: Re: [biofuel] Spin Was: everything in their power


whose hand is on the button ..


Steve Spence
Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter & Discussion Boards. Read about
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[biofuel] Spin Was: everything in their power

[Curtis Sakima]

Sigh .

I think the spin is starting to work... the masses are
starting to overcome the inertia, the river of cattle
starting to flow as the spin doctors have intended.

As America chants how "everything" we do has the
blessings of "God ... truth and right".

I fear to consider where we are headed.

And BTW, doesn't America have the largest nuclear
arsenal in the world??  Could someone explain the
difference between a nuclear ordinance/warhead and a
WoMD??

Curtis


--- Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

--snip

I don't think I'm a victim of any lack of information,
but, on the Middle East in general, I think you're a
victim of receiving far too much information from one
side and not enough from the other, and the "other"
side in this isn't necessarily the "opposite" side, it
also includes many independent views.

--snip---

You pick out Arab-world support for Palestine as
illegitimate support for "murderers", the Iran case as
an example of that, and don't even mention the massive
US military and other support for Israel. Your view is
obviously that this is legitimate, and not to be
compared. That is a one-sided view: Israel is right,
the Palestinians are wrong. US support for Israel is
right and legitimate, but might need some fine-tuning;
Arab support for Palestinians is wrong and must be
stopped. Palestinians are "murderers"; Israel's
killing (why not "murder"?) of Palestinians might need
someexamination. 

=
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[biofuel] Keeping the baby from flying out with the bathwater Was: cool stuff

[Curtis Sakima]

I dunno, I disagree with a lot of the negative
attention that hydrogen gets.

I agree, that hydrogen will not be the "paneacea"
(spelling??) that some make it out to be ...

But I really think that hydrogen WILL be part of our
future ... though.  In SPECIFIC nicheMarket-tuned
areas of our society.  I believe it WILL have a place.

Just because hydrogen failed to be the answer in the
global way the original dreamer's had envisioned 
doesn't mean we should THROW OUT THE WHOLE DAMN IDEA
OUT THE WINDOW!!  It does have certain advantages ...
abeit in certain "specific" applications.

Curtis

--- dan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
line, not the electricity in it.  someone has to make
the hydrogen and that takes a s**tload of energy.  

Further, hydrogen will be produced on the backs of
existing polluting power plants.  Its a package, sold
to the consumer as Clean energy.  the cleanliness of
it is because at the end user there is no pollution,
but there is lots of pollution at the source - 

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[biofuel] OT : anyone know of this problem??

[Curtis Sakima]

Does anyone on this list use Juno as there ISP??

If so, has anyone experience problems with not being
able to log into the server??  Like authenticating
your username and password ... and then dropping the
connection...

Has anyone heard of/read as to "what the problem is"??

If so ... please contact me off-list!!

Thanks ... and sorry for the interruption.

Curtis

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[biofuel] Thanks Kris!! Was: Saddam unpopular?

[Curtis Sakima]

Thanks Kris!!  I'm glad.  At least "someone" knows
what I've been talking about!!  (lol)

Curtis


--- Kris Book <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
 
These same folks run every government from behind the
scenes. It matters not who wins a war, within a very
short period of time things revert to the same old
ugly mess.

As long we argue about these subjects, we are doing
exactly as the greed mongers want us to do. As long as
whites hate blacks, men control women and kids,
countries dictate to others how to govern their
citizens, etc., we are in reality guarding the prison
gates for them.


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[biofuel] Thanks Keith!! Was: Saddam unpopular?

[Curtis Sakima]

Thanks Keith!!  I'm glad.  At least "someone" knows
what I've been talking about!!  (lol)

Curtis


--- Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

--snip---

Believing that democracy needed wise and hidden
manipulators, Bernays was proud to be a propagandist
and wrote in his book Propaganda: "If we understand
the mechanisms and motives of the group mind, it is
now possible to control and regiment the masses
according to our will without them knowing it." He
called this the "engineering of consent" and proposed
that "those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of 
society constitute an invisible government which is
the true ruling power of our country. . . . In almost
every act of our daily lives, whether in the sphere of
politics or business, in our social conduct or our
ethical thinking, we are dominated by the relatively
small number of persons . . . who pull the wires which
control the public mind."




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[biofuel] Who defines it?? Was: Saddam unpopular?

[Curtis Sakima]

Well, the problem you run into is that ... who defines
tyrant??  In most cases, it's the media.

Why is it that our media is referred to as "the media"
... while other countries' media is often referred to
as "so-and-so's PROPAGANDA MACHINE"??

Curtis

--- Michael S Briggs <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
 
If you read my statement completely, you'll notice
that it's aimed at tyrants who wantonly kill people
within their own country, a la Hitler.


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Re: [biofuel] The BBC has been fooled...

[Curtis Sakima]

Keith,

I'm almost afraid to ask ... what do ya think about
me?? (LOL)

I will admit, I certainly lack the travel-the-world
experience that you have.  My experience mainly stems
from my observations ... then striving to "think on my
own".  Hope I've been doing (at least) "OK".

Curtis

--- Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I didn't assume that. I'm very unlikely to make such
assumptions, not myself having any particular
nationality, country or home. But you've certainly
swallowed the party line.

and I've lived for long periods in various Western
countries, so I know Western views very well, while
not subscribing to them. And you're firmly locked into
a particular American viewpoint on international
issues.


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[biofuel] What's missing today Was: Returning to our Founder's principles

[Curtis Sakima]

Believe or not Mike, in my opinion, you ask VERY good
questions!!  Because through those questions, we
dissect this very animal called  "America".  In
fact, if you did not bring up these issues ... I'd
think you as "a little strange".  :)

First, let's take this thing about making anthrax ...
and the neighbor killing his children.  Believe it or
not ... you HAVE the "right" to do these things!!

REALLY!!

In the Constitution days, however, something a little
strange happened.  It was the "teaching of correct
principles".  From the time kids were born, they were
taught those "strange" concepts of ... of COURSE ..
you take that candy, you pay for it.  Or, you hurt
somebody .. you DESERVED to be punched back.  "You've
been given great service son  WHAT DO YOU SAY??". 
"Thank you".

We knew basic concepts of right and wrong.

So even though ... yes ... we have the "right" to make
anthrax ... or kill our kids  why would we??  We
loved our neighbors ... so why would we risk hurting
them with anthrax??

In other words, because we "loved" our neighbor ... we
took the time ... studying the wind.  Checking launch
angles.  Making DAMN sure our rocket would not land in
our neighbors yard.

SELF-GOVERNANCE Mike ... THAT was the "law".  Knowing
right from wrong ... caring internally about other ...
passing these concepts on to our children.  Starting
it young.

That's what missing in society today Mike.  And
FOOLISHLY , we're replacing it with guns ... cops ...
wildly strict laws ... stupidly complicated business
contracts ... the UN ... international laws ... and
bombs.

As the saying goes, "Love cannot be legislated".

To solve most of our problems here Mike ... we must
start at the beginning.  Where the problem all
started.  For each parent ... to look into themselves.
 To look past the hatred, the prejudice, the
propaganda, etc ... etc.  And to pass these basic
concepts ... to our children.  To take PARENTAL
"right" and "responsibility" in teaching each our own
children ... these principles.

Take the Constitutions ... but also take the Bible ...
the Quoran ... all the doctrinal stuff in each
society.  And you will find that, after you cut away
all the BS ... each teach a very similar "love thy
neighbor" theme.

Hope this answer your question about having the
"right" to do things.  Having the "right" to own a gun
... does not "automatically" mean "therefore" I will
go buy gun/go to liquor store/kill clerk.

Curtis

--- Michael S Briggs <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
So, if I want to produce some anthrax in my basement,
I have that right? That would be news to me.

So if your neighbor decides to kill his children, that
would be okay with you?

Saddam has used chemical weapons to kill entire
villages of Kurds. Do you think your neighbor is
allowed by the Constitution to kill his kids with
sarin and mustard gas?

No, a person does not have the right to do whatever he
wants on his property. The Constitution guarantees
Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness, not the
right to do what you want on your property. Taking
someone's life (i.e. dropping sarin gas on them) would
be a violation of the very first one of those
guarantees - Life.


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[biofuel] Returning to our Founder's principles Was: The BBC has been fooled...

[Curtis Sakima]

If one were to read the Constitution ... I think we
would find that a very core belief in the American
Founder's thought pattern  was the concept of
"Private Property".  Which meant that ... so long that
what one person did on "his" property .. did not
directly wreak lives on "our" property ... it was "his
business" what he did on "his property".

That is to say, that if "he" started launching model
rockets on "his" property ... so long as they did not
land on "my" property ... it was "his business".  It
did not matter whether I thought launching rockets was
a waste of time  or was stupid because it "might
set fire to his grass".  It was "his property".

Same thing with "Kids".  Let's say I hear crying. 
Followed by "mean" spanking sounds.  The way that our
forefather's looked at it (in the Constitution writing
days) ... was that a man's children were HIS
responsibility.  That he was responsible for
upbringing them  PLUS ... be responsible for the
result of his upbringing methods.  His Kids would
either be his "pride and joy" ... or end up being his
"worst nightmare".  Either way ... he "reaped" what he
"sowed".  It was "His" business ... and also his
"joy/problem" as to the outcome.

The Constitution also implies that this common way of
looking at things ... applies at all levels.  From the
family ... to the City and County ... to the State ...
to the Federal  and yes ... even to the whole
world.

I look a Saddam Hussein as (on a global scale) as a
"Daddy" (leader)  of his "family" (country) ... on
his "private property" (Iraq).  And how Saddam and his
"children" relate to each other (government) is "their
business".  Now, do I agree with his methods??  No, I
do not.  The same way I don't agree with excessive
spanking.  In fact, rumours of chemical and biological
stuff there makes me cringe the same way I cringe when
I hear the violent spanking next door.  It does ... it
really does.

However  I remind myself "it's that families'
business".  Because to violate their "right of private
property" (by either coming into a house with
cops/guns  or bombing in the case of Iraq) ...
would violate such "higher principles"  principles
that are at the VERY FABRIC of our "Republic ... for
which it stands"  that I believe we'll "win the
battle ... but lose the war".

Thus, I firmly believe that  maybe what Saddam is
doing isn't all right ... but then BOMBING is not the
way to solve it.

Well, that's my take on it.

Curtis

---Curtis has written the preceeding because:


-at one time Curtis Sakima wrote:

The same thing I feel about our US constitution. 
The Constitution implies the that other countries have
a right to run their Government as "they see fit". 

To give each government a right to exist the same as
we demand our Government the right to exist.



--- to which Michael S Briggs replied:--

No, the Constitution does not imply that. The
Declaration of Independence might, but not the
Constitution.

So, are you in favor of allowing dictators to kill
everyone in their country that they don't like?
Nowhere in our Constitution does it say we should
allow that.


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[biofuel] I'm not sure you'd like the results Was: What would "you" do???

[Curtis Sakima]

Or in other words, "The purpose of the UN SHOULD be to
act as a "federal government" on top of all countries'
governments ("state governments") and the whole thing
hooked together into one big "global government"
system".

I don't think you realize "what you are saying".  Or
maybe I should say, you don't realize what would be
created ... if what you are proposing came true.

I'm also proposing ... that if what YOU are proposing
came true AND what I've stated becomes "another way of
saying what you've just said" 

(global government ... with UN on top ... accountable
to no-one )

you would not like the results.

Curtis


--- Michael S Briggs <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
The purpose of the UN SHOULD be to act as an
international peacekeeper/police. 

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[biofuel] Let's tread lightly!! Was: Saddam unpopular?

[Curtis Sakima]

Please, let's not go that far ... please.  It's
spooking "da-hell" out of me.

Doesn't everyone realize what  is
saying??  Try using your imagination!!  And notice how
the statement below "could" be re-stated.

"My feeling is that the UN should stop pussy-footing
around to help bring a common-form of government
(properly stamped "democracy") to the entire world. 
We could even connect them all together. Yes, let's do
that!! That would effectively form "one" (big)
government. Under the UN.  A ... let's see ... a
"GLOBAL GOVERNMENT"!!

And using force to overthrow people who stand in the
way (first demonized as "tyrants" ... of course) when
necessary."

I would advise all to be VERY careful.  Such a
scenario is only a hop-skip-andajump away.

I really believe in the concept of the "Sovereign
Nation".

Curtis

--can't figure out who, but someone wrote:--

My feeling is that the UN should act together to help
bring democracy to the entire world, using force to
overthrow tyrants when necessary. We shouldn't just
say "it's none of our business if he wants to kill his
own people".


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[biofuel] Clarifying what I mean Was:The BBC has been fooled...

[Curtis Sakima]

Perhaps, I get that idea from the ones I've run into
back home and over here where I currently reside. 
Notice I mean "Christian" missionaries  as oppose
to Christian Missionaries (without the quotes). 
Meaning only carrying the name.

As for your parents ... and all other people (not only
Christians, mind you) ... who have DYNAMITE
CARING/LOVING creeds and beliefs ... AND LIVE them in
their daily life 

RIGHT ON!!!

The world needs more of 'em.

Curtis


--- Steve Spence <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
My parents are Christian Missionaries. They walk the
walk, and talk the talk.


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[biofuel] An interesting thought Was: The BBC has been fooled...

[Curtis Sakima]

Any of you every experienced a so-called "Christian"
missionary??  The kind that preaches that "God wants
all of us to respect each others feelings ... opinions
... and points of view".  And then, when you say you
busy ... proceeds to INSIST his message is important
... blocking your door from closing. Proceeding to ...
ahem ... RAM his PREACHING down your throat.  Ever
experience that kind of person??

Personally, I believe that the first step in being ...
ahem ... "Christian" ... is to ACT it.  As an EXAMPLE.
First of all ... by LIVING what you preach ... and not
RAMMING anything down ANYONE'S throat.

The same thing I feel about our US constitution.  The
Constitution implies the that other countries have a
right to run their Government as "they see fit".  To
give each government a right to exist the same as we
demand our Government the right to exist.

WE MUST SHOW THE VIRTUES OF OUR CONSTITUTION ... BY
ACTING "CONSTITUTIONALLY" TO THEM!!

And as for sending my children to Iraq over a few
barrels of oil  well ... to me, the US military is
showing to me to only be "security guard service" ..
found in the Yellow Pages next to A-1 securities INC. 
Hired by Oilies INC ... as a "corporate property
security service".  To guard THEIR PRIVATE PROPERTY. 
Except SUBSIDIZED by tax payer's money.

I'm sorry to be so hard on my own country  but I
can't help but feel that way.

Curtis

 
--- Kris Book <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
For some reason that I cannot understand, these same
folks feel that the U.S. has a right to administer
ultimatums to other sovereign nations, which do not
fall within the frame work of our Constitution. 

--snip--

So please, first ask yourself if you would want to
send your own son to Iraq over a few barrels of oil.

-snip--

We are currently in grave danger, read your
Constitution and demand that It be upheld, before it's
too late.


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[biofuel] What would "you" do??? Was: The BBC has been fooled...

[Curtis Sakima]

It always puzzled me ... why it's always portrayed as
so "h .. a ... o" sensational that
"anti-aircraft guns are firing at our planes.  I mean,
try turning the tables around ... what would WE do if
planes from a foreign country were flying around New
York and California  enforcing some sort of a "No
Fly Zone"??  WE are there on THEIR soil (well, their
airspace to be exact).  What do we expect any (even
half) self-respecting country to do??

Second, why do we always seem to carry the banner of
"GOD,TRUTH & RIGHT" wherever we go?? I'm not so sure
that all "our" (US) motivations are "so godly, charity
and altruistic" 

I'm starting to get this eerie feeling.  Wondering
what the Nazi-Germany people were seeing on THEIR 6:00
news reports during WWII. Was it that "we bombed the
hell out of a Russian town"  or that "we succeeded
in PURIFYING the Russian town of evil non-Aryans".  Or
some "we're the good guys" crap like that.

Are we (today) falling into the same trap as they (the
Nazi-public) did??  Now, before a flame war starts,
I'm NOT comparing the US and Nazi govts.  I'm
comparing the two MEDIA'S.  On a "what's really going
on vs. how truthfully it's reported" basis.

Lastly, I wonder about the word "Weapons of Mass
Destruction".  Aren't "we" in the US supposed to have
the largest nuclear arsenal in the WORLD??  The
largest stockpile of  ahem  "Weapons of Mass
Destruction".  Or is a nuclear ordinance/arsenal "NOT"
a weapon of mass destruction??  I've seen old footage
of American nuclear tests ... and the "destruction"
look awefully "mass-ive" to me.  So who "really" has
the "WoMD"??

Curtis



--- Michael S Briggs <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

-snip-

 .Iraq has been constantly firing missles and
anti-aircraft guns at our planes over that entire
time. In return, we destroy the guns and radar systems
used for firing at the planes. Our flight missions
have truly been "peacekeeping" missions (in the sense
that their purpose is entirely to protect the villages
that Saddam enjoys dropping chemical weapons on,
etc.). He has been firing on our planes for 11 years.

Note that us patrolling this no-fly zone was part of
the UN cease fire agreement. We would have preferred
to just kill Saddam directly, and establish a new
government. But, the UN, and in particular the
neighboring Arab nations were opposed to that (because
a "regime change" has such a nasty feeling apparently. 

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[biofuel] The BBC has been fooled...

[Curtis Sakima]

I dunno, I've been hearing a lot about this "Saddam
Hussein/Iraq thing" ... and it annoys me that here we
are ... threatening to bomb Iraq.  And I can't figure
out what Iraq's ever done "to us" first.  I mean, have
Iraqi planes ever flown over the U.S.??  Dropping
BOMBS??  Have any missiles with Iraqi serial numbers
on it ever hit any US targets??  

All I keep on hearing ... is that "Saddam" is such a
"threat".  That we must "bomb Saddam" because he is
"such a threat".  No act yet .. but "he is such a
threat".

I thought America was the land of "prosecute the act".
 Not "prosecute cause we think maybe ... he might
...".  

"In the news tonight, Police broke down the door of
Curtis Sakima.  Just because on one side of his house
was found smokeless powder (for my rifles .. legal)
and on the other side of his house was found plumbing
pips (from a recent home upgrade).  Police are
arresting him on the POSSIBILITY that he MIGHT be
manufacturing WEAPONS OF LOUD PERCUSSION (pipe bombs)
and have him in custody, demanding him to defend
himself and prove otherwise".

Golly, I can see it now.

Curtis



--- Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

-snip--

What the document entirely fails to do - and possibly
could never have done - is show that Saddam Hussein is
a current threat, or what his future intentions are...


snip--

Now what does all that remind me of? Weak. If there
were a smoking gun we'd definitely know all about it
beyond any doubt. Just oil. And politics. The two
hopelessly confused as ever, when it comes to the US.
 
Keith
 

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Re: [biofuel] A look at the "bottom line" Was: Huge sealedmethane ...

[Curtis Sakima]

Commie, pinko (what the heck is that!!), enviro??  If
you say so Todd 

You're probably the #1 thing that keeps this list
interesting ... Todd, you're one-of-a-kind! And I mean
that in a good way, BTW.

I agree TOTALLY with your comments about the
definition of "freedom".  Although with the debates
we've had before .. that's kind of a scary thought. :)

Curtis
  
--- Appal Energy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I guess that makes me a commie, pinko, enviro, next
set out to strip all the interstellar nebulae dwellers
of their freedom after my job is done here.
 
"Freedom" in a truer sense of the word means not being
slave to timeclocks, credit cards, toys, social
status
 
And then there is being a slave to petrochemicals,
fossil fuels, corporate agriculture

Lot to be said for not signing on as an endentured
servant. But even then you can never be purely
independent ("free").
 
Todd Swearingen


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Re: [biofuel] Shooting from the hip!!

[Curtis Sakima]

(Peeking out of a crack in the wall with barrel of a
rifle)

Me ... Paranoid?? Who me??

Curtis

--- Appal Energy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
...or are you feeling paranoid as a result of
specifics?


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[biofuel] Kama'aina Was:Air car.

[Curtis Sakima]

eh ... howzit brah!! (LOL)
I'll let the rest of the biofuel gang figure THAT on
out ...

Curtis
Mainland resident - born/raised in HI

--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

--snip--

Clarence in Hawaii


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[biofuel] Commons

[Curtis Sakima]

DUH!!

Thanks Todd!!

Curtis


--- Appal Energy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Air, water, oceans, beaches, ozone layer, all are
examples of a commons.
 
Todd Swearingen


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Re: [biofuel] Ozone

[Curtis Sakima]

H  so the bulb is completely under water huh??

Well, in that case it might be the water .. as you
said. Either that, or the O2 in the water (fish gill
O2).  Cause I know that Ozone dissolves in water quite
well (in fact, it's used to disinfect water .. kinda
like chlorination ... ).

Interesting!!

Curtis

--- Greg and April <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
The devices (UV steralizers) I am talking about are
used in the aquarium hobbie, to prevent outbreaks of
undesirable algae, and other micro organisms.  The
lamps have a quartz sleave them and the water and are
sealed from the outside air to prevent leaks.


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Re: [biofuel] Shooting from the hip!!

[Curtis Sakima]

Well, that kinda goes along with my (lol)
"Soviet-Union" mentality (again, LOL).

It's so freaky-weird ... when the watching is so (good
word!) "selective".  When what gets "selected" for
watching ... almost "strangely" seems to be what leads
into the direction of "less personal freedom".

Just super strange 

Curtis

--- Ken Provost <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
 
The thing that really irks me is the SELECTIVE nature
of the "watching". The most charitable spin I can put
on it is that the gummint watches, and regulates, what
they're ALLOWED to by the big hitters  (

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[biofuel] Oh oh!! Was:Shooting from the hip!!

[Curtis Sakima]

Oh no!!  Now I have to ask  what's a "Common"??

Curtis


--- Ken Provost <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
And the big question, "what really constitutes the
"Commons", and what should we do to protect it?" is
never addressed at the appropriate levels.


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Re: [biofuel] Re: Air car.

[Curtis Sakima]

Hmmm... that's too bad.  As I recall, the Tonka Truck
... truck ... even had it going to the "tail shaft"
too!!

Curtis

--- Doug Foskey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Not sure as I didn't see the article. The unit can be
retro-fitted to existing trucks as it goes into the
tailshaft (ie:gearbox-Permodrive- t'shaft-rear axle)


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[biofuel] Shooting from the hip!! Was:A look at the "bottom line

[Curtis Sakima]

(LOL)

I'm sorry!! At times when I get passionate about
subjects, I use these "analogies" that (unfortunately)
I assume that "everybody" understands.  And so I kinda
chuckle when heads turn to me  ... with "huh, whatddya
talking about".

I'm sorry, what I meant was that the position that I
see a "lot of enviromentalists" take is for more and
more "government regulation".  Which ends up becoming
"more and more government watching" ... to see if we
are complying. Then, taking that intrusiveness to the
limit ... I was simply saying that at THAT point ...
privacy/intrusiveness-wise we'd be no better off than
former "Soviet Citizens".  Constantly watched. 
Constantly monitored.  Constantly "regulated".

I'm really bad with words sometimes.  Maybe someone
else in the group can explain what I mean more fully
(even though not agreeing with me ... at least knowing
what I'm trying to say).

Curtis


--- Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Huh? Whatever are you talking about? What Soviet
Union, for a start? 

Have you ever met an environmentalist? In Russia today
environmental campaigners ..

snip- 

Nope. Even the big US environmental groups don't have
that effect - they're not closet Commie Rats or
whatever, they're closet corporations, more and more
like the polluting corporations they purport to be
fighting, and quite often in bed with them.


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[biofuel] Ozone Was: Hydrogen Economy greatly overrated, biomass underrated...

[Curtis Sakima]

I'm sorry, I was merely questioning if the detection
of ozone was a laboratory-controlled-experiment ... or
just an observation of smelling ozone while exposing
water to UV (for some other reason).  If laboratory
researchers were at the helm of the experiment (doing
a search-for-ozone controlled experiment) ... I
apologize for jumping the gun.

I was just thinking that the UV source was probably
not completely underwater.  That there was air space
between the source ... and the surface of the water.

OR, there is another possible explanation.  UV
radiation is usually generated by arc-discharge type
of light-bulbs.  These bulbs usually use a rather
high-voltage. It could've been that the ozone one
smelled might be coming from the Carona discharge from
the high-voltage.

Curtis

--- Greg and April <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Can you explain how the Oxygen in the air is supposted
to be molecularly changed into ozone when the only the
water is being exposed to the UV?


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Re: [biofuel] Re: Air car.

[Curtis Sakima]

Isn't that the Big "Tonka Truck" that was featured in
some Popular Science Magazine??

Curtis

--- Doug Foskey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Its a local Co, here on N coast NSW, Australia. I
bought shares in it. It does look good, & preliminary
tests show for things like Garbage trucks, a
phenomonal saving (inc poss using less powerful motor)


The US army is doing trials on it currently.


On Mon, 23 Sep 2002 09:49, another guy wrote:
A hydraulic pump is coupled to the transmission shaft
and engaged when brakes are applied.  The resultant
output is stored in hydraulic reservoirs, and released
back to the pump to drive the transmission shaft and
hence start the truck in motion again when moving off.



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Re: [biofuel] Fwd: Hydrogen Economy greatly overrated, biomass underrated...

[Curtis Sakima]

(whispering) 

Shhh "the reason you smell ozone is because
the Oxygen in the air is being molecularly changed
into ozone.

O2 -> O3

Curtis


--- Greg and April <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
You can do the experiment your self with a aquarium UV
sterilizer, turn it on and very slowly pump water thru
it, and you will smell ozone, this is because the H2O
is breaking up and the O is forming O3. 

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Re: [biofuel] My thoughts on H2 Was: Hydrogen Economy greatly overrated ...

[Curtis Sakima]

IMHO, the problem would be minimal, controlled mostly
by the surface area, the H2 is exposed to (in order to
seep out and escape).  That would include the
chemical-unbounder reaction chamber ... the
pipes/hoses leading from the chamber to the
engine/fuel cell/stove burner/whatever.

To me, the problem would be minimal.  I did not say
"zero" now .. but minimal.  Trying for "zero" would
then become like trying to bringing the chances of
your house being broken into ... to "zero".  You lock
your door ... they can always break your windows .. so
you put bars on your windows ... so the drive a car
through your house walls ... so you  you see what
I mean.  There's a point where you've gotta call it
quits.

Oh, BTW, you say that these are "things you think
about" huh??  Well GOOD!! Good that there are people
in this world that think!! This world sure needs
'em.(LOL)

Curtis


--- "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

-snip---

 However, in order for this to be a valid way to avoid
the dreaded (not yet proven I think) H2 depletion
problem, I think it would have to be shown that when
the H2 is separated from the bound-chemical method of
storage, it does not escape during the brief period.  

---snip

.Not to say I feel certain of any of this, but
since I've seen no disccussion of some of it, I'm just
presenting what I've been thinking about.
 


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[biofuel] A look at the "bottom line" Was: Huge sealed methane ...

[Curtis Sakima]

I see a pattern ... and I was wondering if any else
does.

The fight between Enviro and Freedom appear to be
disturbingly multiple choice test ... with only "two"
choices.  Full on Enviro .. or Full on Freedom.  With
no "C: None of the above" .. or even blanks to
essay-write your own answers.  Only two candidates on
the ballot.

The full-on enviro dudes .. they want full-on Soviet
Union control of the mass populace.  Therefore, with
freedom, the INDIVIDUAL LOSES.


The full-on "freedom" dudes ... freedom I believe in,
but who are the ones doing the shouting??  THE
CORPORATE GUYS!! As in "FREEDOM TO POLLUTE" "FREEDOM
TO DUMP IN NIMBY (not in my backyard)" So you know
what happens?? If "they" (corporate) wins, we end up
getting crappy air, water, soil.  So you know what??
ONCE AGAIN ... THE INDIVIDUAL LOSES!!!

So let's see ... here's my voting ballot ... (A) ...
THE INDIVIDUAL LOSES .. or (B) ... THE INDIVIDUAL
LOSES.

What kind of choices is that

Curtis


--- "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Some advocates of discussion of worldwide-disaster
enviro issues are doing in order to call for some curb
on freedom, or without proper respect for freedom's
value.  
 
So, advocates of freedom develop the idea that all
enviro discussions are just there as a pretext to
attack freedom without regard for its value, and they,
in turn, are sometimes shallow and refuse to
acknowledge the science or need for caution that
science seems to imply.
 
So, I think the hard innovation will come when we can
figure out a way to get our system to respond better
to pressing worldwide environmental issues, *if*
they're genuine, without sacrificing hegemony of
nations or individuals.  And it would be nice if we
could have a discussion of this and figure it out
sometime before 2414 or whenever.


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[biofuel] My thoughts on H2 Was: Hydrogen Economy greatly overrated ...

[Curtis Sakima]

That would seem to indicate that ASSUMING (and it is a
big assumption) that if the "Hydrogen Economy" starts
(regardless because-of-us  or in-spite-of-us) ... we
need to develop more bound-chemical means of storing
H2.  Like within methanol ... of hydride ... or that
Borax "Natrium" thing ... or WHATEVER.

At least that way .. at any one time "at 3AM" (while
the world sleeps) ... there isn't as much H2 just
going "DUH" pressurized in a tank/pipeline.  Asking to
escape.

Curtis

--- "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

snip--
 
Obviously, a massive increase in the amount of pure H2
confined in pipelines and other storage, such as one
would find in a "global H2 economy" would also
massively increase the amount of H2 escaping Earth's
pull in this way.  Whether the amounts would be
sufficient to cause environmental impact concern is
something that interests me.  

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[biofuel] Curtis, the preacher??? Was: Dumb Question

[Curtis Sakima]

Oh, in case wondering minds be out there, my
"sentiments" about drinking are purely personal. I
feel no need to preach, ".. so that's WHY you need to
change YOUR life ".  Wanted to make sure that was
clear!!

Curtis


--- Christopher Witmer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Well, they don't curse the drinker, they "curse" the
drink. I can sympathize with the anti-alcohol
sentiments of people whose lives have been harmed by
their own or someone else's alcohol dependency . . .
but just about any good thing can be abused. 

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Re: [biofuel] Dumb Question Was: Using ethanol (was "source of ethanol")

[Curtis Sakima]

(whispering) Hey guy .. pssst ...

I think I got my answer!!  I don't want Keith to get
out of bed as I have ... and find "250MB" of
"prostitution" thread!!

I tell you what we DEFINETELY need to do.  We need to
create a new yahoogroup!!  Called "Biofuel- the
off-topic spinoffs".  That way we can continue the
off-topic (but I must say, very eye-opening) debates.

Any takers willing to moderate??

Curtis

--- Hakan Falk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Of course the politicians like to legalize
prostitution. 

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[biofuel] Dumb Question - the epilogue

[Curtis Sakima]

My my ... I go to bed, satisfied with the relatively
simple answer I received last night 

Wake up in the morning ... Whoa!!  Sorry I asked!!

Terry,

I think you misunderstood my original question.  And
for that I apologize.  What I wanted to know .. was
NOT "what the regulations are ...".  

(although I thank you ... cause thinking about making
biodiesel someday .. it would be a (near) future
question).

What my original question was .. was why it was so
"highly regulated" AT ALL in the first place.  I mean,
I thought America was the "land of the free".  Where
you are "innocent until proven guilty".  These "ATF
rules" seem to default you in a position of "being
AUTO-guilty" ... with "records" being necessary to
"prove you innocent" if "Daddy" comes around!!

I was sitting around ... listening to this thread
about "ethanol legalities" .. saying "oh","ok", "I
see".  When all of a sudden it dawned on me ... Wait a
minute!!  

Why (if I planned to make ethanol fuel) can't a "just
start" ... quietly .. on my property??  No "high
school child" "has died" in the recent past "due to
the (whatever) of homemade ethanol!!  So I'm not
guilty (or supected guilty) of any crime!!  I have no
plans (as stated earlier) of "drinking" ... or
"selling" my product.  So WHY must I (already have to)
PROVE my innocence??  Through "records" I mean.

That's why I asked my question.  But in any case,
thank you all for your responses.  I got my answer!!

Curtis


--- Terry Wilhelm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I'll send a little of the same info that this all
started out with.  I wish that the people that do not
have or have ever tried to get an Alcohol Fuel
Producers Permit from ATF would refrain from giving
their opinion.  

The permit ATF F 5110.74 does not state...  

The permit does state that

As far as reporting, it is not monthly, but at the end
of the year.


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Re: [biofuel] Dumb Question Was: Using ethanol (was "source of ethanol")

[Curtis Sakima]

Ahhh ... no wonder a non-drinker, think booze is not
really good for ya so I'll never sell it, only high I
enjoy is Alternative Energy kind-of-guy-like-me could
never figure it out!

Duh!! (lol)

THANK ... YOU ... VERY ... MUCH .!!

Curtis


--- Ken Provost <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

If you drink or sell booze, you're going to be
depriving a very old, wealthy, and powerful special
interest of the income they pay good money (to their
elected officials) to have guaranteed to THEM ALONE.

It's just that simple.
 


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[biofuel] Dumb Question Was: Using ethanol (was "source of ethanol")

[Curtis Sakima]

Hey, can I ask like "the" dumbest question in
history??

What IS it ... that motivates the ATF (and other govt.
agencies) ... to make such an overwhelming stink about
ethanol??  Huh??  What is it??

I know it's "because you're guaranteed GOING to do
something" that the govt. don't want.  Something that
... if the govt. doesn't stick a AK-47 in your face
and command you NOT to do ... You're GOING to do. So I
know that's "WHY" the watch you like a hawk!!

But I'm naive ... ok??  What is it that I'm GOING to
do ... such that the ATF demands that I report
regularly to them to make sure "I'm not doing it".

What is it?? Drink my distiller's output??  Sell it??
Sell it to Saddam Hussein in exchange for setting up a
Al-Queda terrorist cell here in the US??

What's the crime everyone's looking so hard for??

naive me,

Curtis
 

--- Ken Provost <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
By definition, the biodiesel "homebrewer" will always
be breaking the law, if any ethanol is recovered.



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Remember when?? Was: [biofuel] Nanotubes

[Curtis Sakima]

This sounds familiar.  I think way back when ... when
horse -n- carriages were just about to be replaced by
automobiles ..

1. Before we talked about the feasibility of mass
producing automobiles ...we must ask ourselves ..
where are people gonna FUEL this "new invention".

2. (At another board meeting) Now boys, we wanna
create this new concept called the "gas station".  But
before we invest large sums of effort in this .. we
must ask ourselves ... who the HECK .. are gonna come
to these "gas stations"??  Is it feasible???

i.e. : we must be very careful of these "circular
arguments"

Curtis

--- "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Talking of storage of hydrogen is talking of storage
of hydrogen.  It is making sure the cart is in order,
checking the wheels and so forth. 

I'll worry about the horse in some other paragraph.


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Re: [biofuel] source of ethanol

[Curtis Sakima]

I'm certainly no expert on the subject, but isn't
un-denatured ethanol moonshine/ATF ... uh, you know
.???

Curtis

--- Michael S Briggs <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
..but it can NOT be denatured with gasoline. It would
be okay to be denatured with methanol, but of course
I'd prefer it if it were possible to get ethanol that
hasn't been denatured at all.


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Re: [biofuel] Range Was: Air car.

[Curtis Sakima]

Thank you all for all your response.  I seem to think
what it all comes down to is practicality.  H2 is
great ... but "only on paper".  I'm correct right??

The no-need-big-range .. I understand, as I AM one of
those "fervent EV'ers"!!  Disappointing though, how
lead-acid batteries ... though recyclable ..
statistically gets dumped ... sigh.

Everyone's probably wondering "why" I'm SO adamantly
comparing automotive propulsion unit??  Well, besides
the obvious "What's best for America's future"
thoughts I have  I've also been considering
converting a used ICE used car to "something-else"
power.   Right now, I'm planning (someday) to convert
a car into a EV.  I tried powering a ICE with Hydrogen
once upon a time.  Now ... this air-car thing (awe,
shoots) got me fascinated.  Heck, maybe I'll get parts
together to make a 5 mile range air-car!!  My
family'll tell you .. I'm always doing crazy thing
like that.

Again, thanks to everyone for the technology
side-by-side comparo.  It has been very (and this list
always continues to be!!) VERY ENLIGHTENING!!

Thanks,

Curtis



--- Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I think it's the third time it's been discussed here,
pretty similar each time.

--snip---

As far as hydrogen is concerned, I much agree with
Steve about the difference between an air leak and a
hydrogen leak, also it seems most hydrogen is intended
to come from or via fossil fuels. And hydrogen is
difficult to contain, it eats its way out.
 
Range isn't everything - 

snip--

Separate argument (row, actually) was over batteries,
with a fervent EVer claiming batteries were THE
recycling success story. Turned out betwen 4 and 7
million defunct car batteries a year get dumped rather
than recycled in the US, where there's a good
recycling infrastructure for them, unlike in Third
World countries where there's no infrastructure, yet
people think it's a Good Thing to install PVs. (I've
seen ground-up lead-acid batteries sold to farmers as
"zinc fertilizer".)


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Re: [biofuel] Range Was: Air car.

[Curtis Sakima]

Ok .. so maybe not YOU personally!!! (LOL)

But this air car thread was going around this list
(ok, SEEMINGLY) like the panacea of the oil crisis ..
the solution to "all our problems" ... etc .. etc.

And that general feel is what made me go ... 

...HUH

Curtis


--- Steve Spence <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Who is giving it a green light? It's only slightly
less dumb than hydrogen.


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[biofuel] Range Was: Air car.

[Curtis Sakima]

I guess my angle of questioning was that ... H2 is
always cut down because of limited range.  Not enough
room in the car to store enough H2 to go a decent
number of miles (unlike gasoline/petrol).

And my question was ... if that were so, then wouldn't
a physical-energy-only-no-chemical-energy-involved
thing like an air-car get even LESS range???

So my question was ... if H2 is already getting
knocked down for "so low range" .. why does an "even
lower range" option like compressed air get such a
green light??

comments??

Curtis

--- Steve Spence <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Double jeopardy. also, a compressed air tank, if
punctured, tends to zoom around for a while, not go
"BANG" with amazing pyrotechnics.


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[biofuel] What about Hydrogen?? Was: Air car.

[Curtis Sakima]

Been following this "air car" thread for awhile. 
Still can't see why an "air car" seem "oooh ... ahhh
... wowww" workable ... and yet hydrogen powering a
car gets the 50 caliber hitting the airplane followed
by "crash -n- burn".

I'm confused because in both air and H2, energy gets
stored the same way.  Either by compressing it ... or
(like in the previous post - nitrogen) by
cryogenically liquifying it.

I would think that H2 would get more range (wouldn't
it??).  Since in an air car .. only the physical
energy storage of the gas is used.  Whereas in H2, the
combustion (either fast ICE or slow fuel cell)
chemical energy gets utilized.

I mean, couldn't H2 be used as the "air" in an "air
car"???  Powering a "steam engine"??  Then, couldn't
the "exhaust" then be fed into a fuel cell ..
releasing still more energy??

Curtis
 
--- kirk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I think the process pencils better if you liquify the
nitrogen rather than compress it. This is even more so
for refrigerated transport where the refrigerator is
useful load. 

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[biofuel] Making it ourselves Was: Polyvinyl Alcohol (PVA) Membranes

[Curtis Sakima]

Too bad electronics weren't that way.  I'd like to see
someday pulling out manufacturing from overseas .. and
making more electronics "in-house" in this country
again .

Well, I can dream right

Curtis

--- womplex_oo1 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

I repeat, the more components you have to buy from
somewhere else, the more expensive the end product. 
To get the cost down, we literally have to be able to
do *everything* ourselves in one fully integrated &
optimized operation.


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[biofuel] Double barreled action Was: Another "biodiesel from ethanol" story....

[Curtis Sakima]

The downdraft wood gasifier .. now THAT would be way
cool!!

The gasifier gas output could (somehow) be processed
into methanol.  Then after combustion was over, the
ash could be turned into lye.  If I read previous
posts correctly, it looks like this would be "the"
way.

Curtis

--- Appal Energy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Destructive wood distillation for the methanol.

Recovery of KOH (potassium hydroxide) from the ash and
char. 

One could also use the ash from a downdraft wood
gasification process.


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[biofuel] Re: Making methanol and lye

[Curtis Sakima]

I'm glad you guys discuss it.  I really am.

A long time ago ... I've heard of destructive
distillation.  I guess I figured that ... since I
haven't kept my ear to the ground for awhile ... that
someone had figured out another, better way (now that
"we're in the new millenium!!).  I guess not huh??

The lye ... my other post explained to "how does it
work" question I have ... so I won't repeat it.

The reaction of table salt ... yeah I'm quite familiar
with that.  Problem is though ... well, for one thing,
platinum electrode once again - ties us to
civilization. Not "backyard".

And the efficiency is the other thing.  With the Table
Salt reaction ... sodium hydroxide comes out of the
reaction at a "electrolyze water to get hydrogen"
rate.  Past posts of the "future hydrogen economy" on
this list does not paint too rosy of a picture about
electrolysing water to make hydrogen ... stating power
efficiency as a counter-argument.  H lye is
produced atom for each atom of H2.  That would tell me
that it might not be so efficient as to be practical.

Well, for the home brewer anyways ..

I'll go look at the archives you mentioned 

Thanks,

Curtis


--- Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
That's long been our goal. It's often been discussed
here - last time, for methanol ... as yet, destructive
distillation seems to be the only method available

For lye, Todd mentions KOH from wood ash, the
traditional way

For NaOH, we had some information that you can make
sodium hydroxide from table salt. 

The anode should be "Acheson graphite, for chloride
solutions" - not so easy to find, it seems, any common
substitutes?

snip--

Since, in general, it is important that the anode
should be attacked as little as possible during
electrolysis, we are confined to the use of platinum,
iridium, palladium, carbon, iron, and nickel for
processes that take place in alkaline solution, and to
the platinum metals and carbon for those carried out
in acid solution.  Anodes of lead dioxide may be
employed in sulfuric acid solutions.  

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[biofuel] Re: Making methanol and lye -

[Curtis Sakima]

Just going down my email from latest to earliest (so I
might find something in an earlier post).

The thing about the liquid mercury doesn't sound like
something I'd enjoy doing in my garage.  Especially if
the reaction is to produce lye in car-fuel quantities.

This wood-ash KOH, yeah, I've heard rumors of that!!
Now THAT sounds like a "back-country" way!!

Thing is ... I never could understand "how" wood-ash
somehow generates KOH "lye".  Do you "just" pour water
through the ash ... and out comes "instant" lye.  Or
is the process more involved than that???  

Chemistry nuts: what reacts with what to form the
KOH??

I can only think of wood as carbon ... let's see ...
reacts with oxygen to for carbon dioxide.  Contains
hydrogen .. hmm ... water.  What forms the KOH??

Curtis


--- Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
That doesn't sound very kitchen-friendly Paul. Maybe
there isn't a kitchen-friendly way, eh? Wood-ash KOH
then I guess.


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Re: [biofuel] Another "biodiesel from ethanol" story....

[Curtis Sakima]

I wonder if there was a "homebrew" way of making
METHANOL (and NaOH for that matter). I mean, to
completely take the process OFF-GRID.

Would be nice for Joe Blow to make BD completely
(only) only from what God / Nature supplied.

Curtis

--- Ken Provost <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

This, of course, is the classic failure mode of
ethanol-based biodiesel.

I added another 800 ml methanol with 80 g dissolved
KOH this morning, and had a good separation after 1.5
hours.

Whewww!
 
This sort of flirting with disaster (what to do with
35 liters of pH 13 alcohol/WVO mixture?) is why I
stopped using ethanol,


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[biofuel] The Original Design Was: Polyvinyl Alcohol (PVA) Membranes ....

[Curtis Sakima]

I agree in that sometimes we don't look at God's /
nature's (whatever your religious persuasion)
"engineering design" ... and notice how "jigsaw
puzzly" perfect it fits together.  And try to imitate
it ... rather than arrogantly try to bend the whole
dang thing to "our" (us human's) will.

Take a Horse, for instance.  It goes and takes a crap
at the base of a tree.  Notice that it only goes there
to relieve itself. And gets it's own self-interest. 
And then walks away when it's done.

What we often don't see .. is that in crapping, the
tree benefits also.  By being fertilized.

I think what we need to do is ... first ... look at
our automobile ... really hard.

Then, think to ourselves ... "if God / nature had to
engineer this automobile ... where in the food chain
would it put it???"

Then find a similar item in nature ... which
kinda/sorta has the same niche as what we want to
engineer.  An automobile does transportation .. so
maybe ... a horse??  Need high speed ... so maybe a
cheetah??

Then examine the design already in existence.  Find
out where the original designed item gets it "fuel" ..
where it dumps its "waste" ... how it gets its
"energy" ... etc.  Then copy it.  Maybe not exactly
... but do our best to be close.

Our entire natural ecosystem is a fine tunes piece of
machinery.  Like a Porsche 944 turbo.  And when the
automotive industry makes "aftermarket parts" for that
car (like a bigger turbo), it makes sure that the
add-on part fits into the picture complementing the
"system as a whole".  That's how you get maximum
performance.

I think we should treat the ecosystem "car" ... with
the same care.  When we add on (automobile / houses /
etc) AFTERMARKET PARTS.

Just a thought.

Curtis 

--- Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Your idea of waste and nature's idea of waste are two
different things. What you call "waste" is returned to
the soil to maintain the organic matter content,
essential for everything -

soil fertility, crop production, and the viability of
the "soilfoodweb", the tons of micro-organisms in an
acre of soil that make plant growth possible.
 
So if you're going to take that away too and burn it
in your car, what will you substitute for it? Chemical
fertilizers?


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[biofuel] Bottom line, IS IT CENSORSHIP?? Was: PLEASE TRIM QUOTES!

[Curtis Sakima]

I've been following this for awhile ... and been
thinkin' deeply ... about "what it all comes down to".

Well here goes .

To Hakan: Trimming email ... I suppose ... in a LOOSE
way .. is sort of (and I say SORT OF) a censorship. 
OK?? I sorta agree with THAT.  In a, what I call
"denotatative", (think "dictionary", word for word,
literal) way 

HOWEVER ... HOWEVER ... the reason that (I'm guessing,
to most of us) we do not "feel" that it's "censoring"
is because in email posting, whenever someone posts a
message (trimmed or not trimmed)  the reader
developing a attitude about the post is ASSURED that
the original owner of the "trimmed out" post is ALSO
READING THE TRIMMED AWAY VERSION OF HIS POST!!

THEREFORE ... we are ASSURED ... that if the trimmed
out version of a post had lost it "connatative" (what
he was "trying" to say vs. what he "literally" said,
the intent, the feeling) meaning ... we can be DAMN
SURE that he will FIRE BACK (flame).  That feedback
system .. is why end sorta ends up "not being like
censorship".

The only time that it WOULD be censorship ... is if
the moderator (Keith, in this case) allowed only
"some" but not "others" to have their postings seen on
the list.  But as I have seen .. Keith here allows
some pretty "radical" views to be posted (even mine!!
LOL).  Both from "way one side" ... to "way the
other".  Because of this ... I'm "pretty sure" that
this is not happening.  Or at least I hope not.

To Jan: h ... ok ... I'll let you call it editing.
 BUT WATCH OUT ... and don't let this habit extend to
other things.  Like if you were a magazine ... or
newspaper editor .. or something like that.  Cause
unlike email, paper reading material does not allow a
reader (especially the owner of what you wrote) to
"fire back" immediately.  As paper stuff usually only
gets updated monthly or so. And by that time  the
"public" has already formed an "image" of what the
person said.  Plus, the ballot voting date may come
before the next month's issue.  Making a word-owner's
rebuttal pointless ... it's too late, the vote count
has already been done.

So from the vote-count's reflecting how the word-owner
feel's point of view ... it kinda would be
"censoring".  The reason being that the way you
"trimmed" (edited) a person's words  affected
(some political process)(some buying habit)(etc).  And
the word-owner ... being his rebuttal is in "next
month's issue"  was too late.  And therefore
rendered ineffective.

Curtis


--Hakan Falk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Trimming email is an arbitrary censorship or can be if
all the parties do not agree on the trimming...

If the original author are not given a chance to agree
with your trimming, it is by definition a censorship

 

--To which Jan Steinman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> replied--

I strongly disagree. I majored in Journalism. It's
called "editing."


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Re: [biofuel] Re: Cellulose - to - Sugar Preprocessing

[Curtis Sakima]

AHHH!!!  A wood to puree converter!!  Ah-Soh-Ka!!

Thanks Steve!!

Curtis

--- Steve Spence <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

http://www.ceres.ca.gov/foreststeward/html/masticator.html


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[biofuel] >>>>>>> 's Was:Bandwidth matters

[Curtis Sakima]

Just wanted to comment that the only trouble I have
w/non-trimmed messages is that with all the:

>
>>
>>>
>>>
's

... that after a few replies ... and replies TO
replies TO replies ... that sometimes after awhile
it's sometimes HARD to figure out WHO said WHAT!!

Curtis

--- Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
The problem for many list members is indeed bandwidth. 

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Re: [biofuel] Re: Cellulose - to - Sugar Preprocessing

[Curtis Sakima]

A what-da-what-da-'cator??

Curtis

--- Jan Steinman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Actually, I think it's the bacteria in their gut that
do the conversion. The termite is simply a MASTICATOR.


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Re: [biofuel] Flower power katalysts

[Curtis Sakima]

(Curtis whispers  "I guess I don't feel that bad
anymore!!")


And then there's "TEOTWAWKI".

Curtis


--Keith wrote:---

I guess IMO, IMHO, IMNSHO, AFAIK, IIRC, ROFL, are
Internet essentials, but it's a bit weird considering
everyone has macros. Maybe people actually say ROFL
these days? - roffle roffle!  Easier than actually
doing it I guess. And CAWKI, of course, since it's
what we're all out to be the end of, LOL!


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Re: [biofuel] Flower power katalysts

[Curtis Sakima]

Finally reading some of my old email.  Saw the
website.  Seems to portray a sunflower oil -> H2
process.

I wonder if the process can be expanded to include
processing SVO and WVO??  

This is, of course, assuming that I am correct in my
thinking that SVO means "straight vegetable oil" ...
and WVO means "waste vegetable oil".

Keith will explain to you how 'ol Curtis here always
get mixed up with "acronyms"!!  (lol)

Curtis


--- John   Venema <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
For an interresting new development look at:

http://www.scientecmatrix.com/seghers/tecma/scientecmatrix.nsf/_/F32FCDA5CA061C27C1256BDA003C3397

A new way for me to produce hydrogen.


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Re: Curious Was: [biofuel] biased scientists?

[Curtis Sakima]

I think I understand .. although it "still" sounds
like a rather ODD concept.  To have filters that make
exhaust "worse" to breath 

Thanks,

Curtis

--- Hakan Falk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
It has to do with the size of the particles and the
human defense system. The filters does let through and
break up the pollution particles to a size where it
will go directly to the lungs and body. This particles
are the ones who creates cancer risks.


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Curious Was: [biofuel] biased scientists?

[Curtis Sakima]

Of course, this has nothing at all with this
conversation but .

I'm really curious . How does putting on filters
in an engines exhaust INCREASE  "cancerous"
pollution?? I mean, how does it ADD pollution that was
not previously upstream of it??

Just wondering,

Curtis


--- Hakan Falk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
It is also an other problem with new diesel cars and
that has to do with the modern exhaust filtering
systems. With them, the diesel pollute with cancerous
particles 100% more than without them and is 50% worse
than gasoline cars. I wonder if Bio Diesel might be a
resolution to this problem. Without the filters,
diesel is lowest on cancerous particles, but the smoke
and smell is of course larger. 

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[biofuel] Another place to pour in your biofuel

[Curtis Sakima]

Hi guys,

Found this website by accident ...

It runs on waste oil:

http://www.econoheat.com/chillers.htm

enjoy!!

Curtis



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Re: [biofuel] Re: Making biodiesel

[Curtis Sakima]

Hey!! Yeah, right ."curt" (lol)

Curtis


--- Appal Energy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Scott,

I know it sounds rather curt, but you will necessarily
have to start from the ground up

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Re: [biofuel] Please help me think through this decision

[Curtis Sakima]

Yeah.  I'm still getting over the jealousy of Chris
even GETTING an opportunity like this!!

Curtis

--- Ken Provost <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Sheesh, Chris, what's to think about? Grab 'em quick,
even if you don't know what to do with them yet. 

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[biofuel] Re: Making biodiesel

[Curtis Sakima]

Your economics sound .. well, VERY interesting. 
Especially considering our finances ..

(Think: "Maybe this could help us get ourselves into
our BETTER financial position  hm .)

"Looking" at the look on your face ... me thinks that
perhaps what I lack ... is knowledge.  How economical
BD "really" is ... not as difficult to make as
(perhaps) i think ... etc, etc, etc.

Still would like to see someone do it though.  Will
check out the file you referred me to.

Thanks,

Curtis


--- Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
 
Hi Curtis
 
Financial position? If you drove a diesel you'd be in
a financial position to start manufacturing it. Say
"making it" rather, sounds less industrial. (Though
"manufacture" means make by hand, literally - hey, my
Latin's rusty!)
 
You can set up a 55-gallon processor for about $60 and
up, much less if you salvage, and the fuel would cost
you about 60c a gallon.
 
So it would make you money, or at least save you
money, not cost you money. Making it for sale is a
different ballgame, but maybe not that different,
depends how you set about it.
 


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Re: [biofuel] Antinomies in diesel engine operation?

[Curtis Sakima]

I'm curious about the "water delays detonation part"
though.  'Cause this is a DIESEL engine right??

In a spark-ignition engine, the "detonation" you
always hear about is caused because high cylinder
pressures are igniting the fuel (Hey, my name is spark
plug ... stop doing MY job!!).  This causes fuel to be
ignited at the wrong time and reason.

In a diesel engine, however, it IS the rise in
compression's job to ignite the fuel.  A diesel
engine's kinda like an engine which USES the
"Detonation" PROPERLY TIMED to fire the fuel.

Curtis
Hotrodder


--- Christopher Witmer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

--snip---

Also, following the various posts about water
injection, I found that one of the advantages is,
detonation is delayed due to the cooling effect of the
water, which allows greater compression and therefore
greater power (in part because of the expansion of the
steam) and also less pollution. Presumably NOx shows
the best improvement.


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Re: [biofuel] (no subject)

[Curtis Sakima]

Not in a financial position to start manufaturing it
... though I'd take on anyone willing to invite me
over to his home an watch him make it.  It sounds like
a cool thing to watch... if not make for oneself.

Curtis


--- Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
If you take us up on it and start making biofuels,
that's a great contribution, 

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Re: [biofuel] What think ye of these gadgets?[Dns error]

[Curtis Sakima]

Feedback:  Mine works ok.   08/12/02 10:30PM CST
--- Christopher Witmer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Something must have just happened, since I could
access with no trouble. 


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Re: [biofuel] SUV's on biofuel (was Re: SUV [lack of] mindsets

[Curtis Sakima]

Oh, btw, there's also diesel Nissan Pathfinders.  I
came across that while studying Nissan's VIN number
meanings.  In the Pathfinder series there is an engine
"choice" of "diesel".

Curtis


--- craig reece <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
but out there but more rare are things like diesel
Isuzu Troopers, diesel International Scouts, etc.


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Re: [biofuel] Heavier Vehicles Not Always Safer

[Curtis Sakima]

Christopher: I can't speak for others, but for me, the
mere fact of SUV ownership doesn't send any "signals"
about the individual behind the wheel, at least none
that I'm consciously aware of. 

Curtis: You're probably right ... but (to me anyways),
it seems like  (sometimes) comments get made on this
list that imply that (to some people anyways) ... it
does.

And when that happens, I react by simply commenting,
"NOT ALL SUV'er/4X4'er ... mind you ... not ALL!!"

Cause remember ... "ALL" include's me now .. the 4X4
nutcase!!  And I do try very hard!! To be
safe/economical/fuel efficient by not always grabbin'
the SUV as the first vehicle to reverse out of the
driveway.  Only when I need to for some reason.

I do try.

Christopher:  Lots of people own all sorts of cars for
what seem to me to be the wrong reasons,.

Curtis:  yeah  (sigh) ..

Christopher:  I gave examples of idiot SUV drivers,
but I could have given similar examples for just about
any category of car out there.

-snip-

In the end, the biggest motor vehicle safety and
pollution problem lies between the ears of the
owner/driver.


Curtis:  INDEED!!



Curtis


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[biofuel] Re: SUV [lack of] mindsets

[Curtis Sakima]

Take a HOSE and WASH out the inside  now THERE'S a
vehicle I would support!!

Curtis


--- Greg and April <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I've always thought this way, but, try and find a UV
without leather seats, is almost impossable.  You
should be able to open the door, take out the seat (
with out to much fuss ), then take a hose and wash out
the inside.  that is a real UV.

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[biofuel] Re: SUV [lack of] mindsets

[Curtis Sakima]

Todd: Used to be that an SUV was completely synonymous
with a Chevy Suburban  (a misnomer back then, but
completely appropo today) and a crew of 8-10 oilfield
workers, fire fighters or surveyors going out to or
coming in from the field.

Curtis:  Yeah! :) I think I "just" old enough to
remember those days ..
 
Todd: Now an SUV is synonymous with anything from a
1st year college student needing room for multiple
frat boys and kegs to a Lacrosse Mom (Cricket Moms in
other countries).

Curtis: I know!!  And I hate it 'cause it drags the
(true meaning/utility/farm) name of SUV/4X4 through
the "media/society" mud (associating it with
stupidity).  And because I wear the "I'm a 4X4'er
tee-shirt", whether they really intended to or not, IT
DRAGS ME IN TOO!!  THAT's the part I don't like...

BTW, (reply offlist), what's a "Lacrosse Mom"??
 
Todd: Personal opiniion? Keep the "sport" in
automotive confined to the race tracks, take the "S"
out of "SUV" and put the vehicle back into perspective
and its intended use.

Curtis:  Agreed!!  NFC (No further comments)!!

Todd: When Lexus and Mercedes start market UVs you
know the auto industry took a wrong turn. (Odd how you
don't see too many a Lexus out rutting it through the
mud on the farm or hauling firewood to the cabin.)

Curtis:  (LOL) Sorry .. :)

Todd: $25,000 - $45,000 - the cost of 25-50 acres, an
old farmhouse and a mule - is a bit of a sacrificial
exchange for quick trips to the corner mart for
disposable diapers.

Curtis:  Now, the disposable diaper part ... that
really makes me sick.  We've become SUCH a "throwaway
society".   VCR's "too expensive to repair" ... "might
as well throw it away and get a new one" ... sigh 

BTW, where the hell do you get 25 acre for $45K ...
that's quite a deal compared to what I've seen

Curtis

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Re: [biofuel] Heavier Vehicles Not Always Safer

[Curtis Sakima]

This 4X4 enthusiast/nutcase's $0.02:

aaarrgh!!  When I hear about these "kids using the
backseat of an SUV" or "baby standing of her lap in a
SUV" ... it makes me puke.  Here these people are ...
making a total idiot of themselves ... when all along,
calling themselves (by their vehicle choice) ... an
"SUV'er".   Giving the whole concept of "SUV" or worse
... 4X4'ing ... an image of "stupidity" ... or
"ignorance".

To me, it would be the same as though (on the news)
there were these stupid lawsuits about "it's
McDonald's fault that I'm fat -n- overweight" ... and
then having the gall to reveal his last (family) name
to be "Witmer" ... or "Addison".  The whole world
laughs and redicules this guy ... and then proceeds to
say ... "ALL these Witmer's ... or ALL these Addison's
... they're ALL so STUPID".

Now when Keith and Christopher go to the grocery store
.. and sign their name on a check ... the store clerk
(who recently saw the news last night) LOOKS A THEM
FUNNY (or gives them a funny look).  Just cause of
their name!!!  I really hate that!!

People, in my opinion, need to realize that whatever
they do, reflects ... not only on themselves .. but
also on their family's last name ... on their friends
... on groups they belong to ... on their church they
attend ... on their company ... and on their country
as a whole.

Btw, on the issue on automobile crumpling ... I
understand what it's for.  However, I feel it to be
"such a waste".  'Cause now you've gotta throw the car
away.  Too bad there wasn't a way to make the Car as a
whole SOLID AS A ROCK ... but yet have some cheap,
throw away "liner" on the inside that one removes
after a collision ... throws away ... and replaces
with a new one ... for "$5.00".  That way, the
majority of the car can be saved.  Just a thought.

my $0.02,

Curtis


--- Christopher Witmer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I can tell you who wouldn't notice in any case: that
guy driving the SUV in front me this morning, whose
kids were using the rear seat for a trampoline. And
also my neighbor down the street who  drives her SUV
with her baby variously seated or standing in her lap.
 
You are right, Keith, about there being no direct
connection between vehicle size and safety. It has a
lot more to do with the number of functioning neurons
in the driver's brain.
 
Some heavier cars are so stiff that they transfer the
force of a collision to the occupants; a well-designed
lighter vehicle will crumple (by design) to absorb the
force of impact without transferring it so directly it
to the occupants.
 


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Re: [biofuel] Heavier Vehicles Not Always Safer

[Curtis Sakima]

Well, I'm the 4X4 nutcase of the group (as everyone
unfortunately knows!!) and I'll be the first to argue
against the "bigger is safer" mentality!!

Safety (to me anyways) is first and foremost the
factor of the driver.  In my opinion, the same idiot
who was caught speeding around the turn and flipped
over his SUV is the SAME PERSON who last week banged
up his economy sedan trying to take it "off roading".

It's due to a person not understanding the physics
involved in ANY vehicle that he (or she) owns .. and
as a result, uses the vehicle (unfortunately)
inappropriately.

regrettfully,

Curtis


--- Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Someone else on the list said: "The actuarial
statistics are quite clear: bigger IS safer." 

-snip---

These are very sweeping statements. Sure, cars need to
be safer, and you need some measurements to assess
that. But that hasn't been the purpose with this
stuff, it's spin - seek whence it stems and you find
the guilty party/parties. There are many factors
involved in safety, and I think this new study begins
to address that at last.
 


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Re: [biofuel] Personal matter/opinion

[Curtis Sakima]

Our U.S. media seems to indicate that the Argentine
economy is in a real mess.  If that is true, my
sympathies go out to you on your country's fanancial
situation.

Curtis


--- Christian <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
...as I currently live in Argentina...

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Re: [biofuel] Trends I see Was: On The Duty of Marketing Biofuels

[Curtis Sakima]

(LOL)!!

I like you Keith!!

Curtis

--- Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
So what's new?


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Re: [biofuel] Hubbert Peak

[Curtis Sakima]

The $1,000,000 question??  :)

Curtis


--- Christopher Witmer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
We have to decide, okay, is this the hill that I want
to die on? 

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[biofuel] Trends I see Was: On The Duty of Marketing Biofuels

[Curtis Sakima]

Most of the group pretty much understands where I
stand. So I don't think any severe damage would come
about by me saying it again.

And that is that I personally think ... that a lot of
what this WHOLE WORLD is coming down to lately. Is one
BIG argument of "your morals vs. mine".  

And more importantly ... that "there oughta be a LAW"
... such that "my morals" dictate everyone's life ...
including YOURS.  That "your morals" are "your moral"
.. yeah,yeah,yeah ... but "my morals" are THE FACTS.

I see the trend.  I blame no one in particular. Nobody
in this group. Nobody in this... or any other country.
I simply see the trend.  Just turn on your local news
channel... and you'll see it.

I can't really say that "I know" why it is happening.
Perhaps someone more intellegent than I could explain
to me why.  I don't know why ... but I see it
happening.  And it frightens me sometime.

Curtis 


--- Hakan Falk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
 
Dear Edward Beggs,

--snip
 
I think that we are getting in to a ridiculous
discussion about your moral verses mine. Nothing that
anyone of us have the knowledge to discuss.


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Re: [biofuel] Re: EV (GEM) Fire Burns Down Celebrity House

[Curtis Sakima]

I'm kinda of an EV nutcase ... so I can tell you
probable why .

In most cases, the "no tranny/drivetrain/axle" needs
to be engineered FROM SCRATCH at the Automobile
Factory.  At a large expense.  Can be done, but very
expensive.  Lots of retooling.

The replace-the-ICE method of EV'ing appears more
often ... simply because it is cheaper.  The Car
(minus the ICE) is already in mass-production.

Curtis


--- Steve Spence <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
every electric car I've driven has a transmission,
drive train, axles, and mechanical steering and
braking linkages. the only difference is the ICE was
replaced with a 9" or so electric motor.


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