Re: [Biofuel] Wolf attack near Grangeville

[JJJN]

They just eat and run.

Joe Street wrote:

> Nah Canadian wolves are too proud to enter the U.S.
>
> DHAJOGLO wrote:
>
>>On Monday, August 07, 2006  6:57 PM, JJJN wrote:
>>  
>>
>>>Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2006 16:57:27 -0700
>>>From: JJJN
>>>To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org <mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org>
>>>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Wolf attack near Grangeville
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>...Don't get me wrong I like to see wolves but I struggle with 
>>  
>>
>>>how they fit into the agricultural areas of Eastern Montana. 
>>>
>>>
>>I think you are struggling with the wrong question: how do we fit into the 
>>wolves habitat after having turned it into an agricultural area?  I, for one, 
>>blame the Canadians and feel we should build a large wolf fence between us 
>>and Canada.  I call it, "The Maple Curtain!"
>>
>>
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>>  
>>
>
>
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Re: [Biofuel] Wolf attack near Grangeville

[JJJN]

DHAJOGLO wrote:

I think you are struggling with the wrong question: how do we fit into the 
wolves habitat after having turned it into an agricultural area?  I, for one, 
blame the Canadians and feel we should build a large wolf fence between us and 
Canada.  I call it, "The Maple Curtain!"

Well I wish you luck on that, I suppose they will need a pasport at the least 
in the near future.


>On Monday, August 07, 2006  6:57 PM, JJJN wrote:
>  
>
>>Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2006 16:57:27 -0700
>>From: JJJN
>>To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Wolf attack near Grangeville
>>
>>
>>
>...Don't get me wrong I like to see wolves but I struggle with 
>  
>
>>how they fit into the agricultural areas of Eastern Montana. 
>>
>>
>
>I think you are struggling with the wrong question: how do we fit into the 
>wolves habitat after having turned it into an agricultural area?  I, for one, 
>blame the Canadians and feel we should build a large wolf fence between us and 
>Canada.  I call it, "The Maple Curtain!"
>
>
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>  
>

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Re: [Biofuel] Wolf attack near Grangeville

[Kirk McLoren]

As I said before predation doesnt make the news - it is suppressed. However there is some historical comment and it is as I said. See the reference to went out of business? That is the reality.   Same re cougers. A pair decimated the deer population on the mountain where I lived. When deer carcases were shown to fish and game they said dogs killed them. Why It was said to their face they were stupid lying b*strds and they just shrugged. Nothing was done by fish and game. The cats disappeared. (shot I suppose) The deer are recovering. Sad that vigilantes have to do the job of government. But that is the reality. Fish and game publish statistics they pull out of . Their population counts are fiction.  Seen it with my own eyes. Believe what you want. You will anyway.      Kirk  http://digitalcommons.unl.edu/vpcone/6/  Up to 1949, the Fish and Game Branch employed personnel, some of whom were temporary, to attempt control of the extremely high wolf pop¬ulations of the central and northern portions of British Columbia. Coyotes were also very numerous in the central and southern regions and had to be considered because of their depredations. The field men were keen and conscientious but their efforts were not co-ordinated. Control areas were severely restricted in size as techniques were not adaptable enough and because of a lack of manpower. Eventually, sheepmen went out of business entirely over wide areas, cattlemen were subjected to huge annual losses, and sportsmen were very concerned. However, stock losses constituted the major complaint and resulted in ranchers demanding action* Two major changes came out of this. First, the bounty on wolves was raised and second, the present Predator Control Division was
 formed. The administration was convinced that a force of experienced, fully-trained field staff under a single supervision would be far more effective than bounty payments. Unfortunately, bounties were in vogue during that time and forced the necessity of proving the worth of organized controls before any consideration could be given to the elimination of the bounty system.DHAJOGLO wrote:  Kirk, I think I understand your position.  And wolves are very keen preditors but again, I reiterate this link: http://www.ers.usda.gov/news/BSECoverage.htmCattle inventory* January 1, 2003:o U.S.—96.1 million, down from 1996 peak of 103.5 milliono Canada—13.5 million head  *  January 1, 2004o U.S.—94.9 million head (cyclical low)o
 Canada—14.7 million head  With an estimated 50,000 wolves (http://www.wolfsongalaska.org/canadian_wolves.html) it appears that Canada still has cows.Now, lets look at the per capita comparisons:.4 cows per person in Canada (32,000,000 pop: http://www40.statcan.ca/l01/cst01/demo02.htm?sdi=population )  .3 cows per person in the US (presuming 295 million as the population)In 1982, the US had about 39 Million head of beef cattle and now, we have 33.9 million. http://usda.mannlib.cornell.edu/usda/current/Catt/Catt-07-21-2006.pdf and there seems enough to go around.  As far as the wildlife are concerned, that too is too complex to simply sum up with local data.
So, yes, many don't see the wolf problem in the news.  But then again, those who do see it probably fail to look at the broader picture and just presume that Wolves are a threat to all of us.  Like I said, in Minnesota wolves are an issue but I don't fear for my life and the wildlife is certainly not doing badly with the wolves. http://www.dnr.state.mn.us/mammals/deer/facts.html and http://www.mnforsustain.org/wolf_mech_and_nelson_wolves_deer_harvest.htm show the numbers for wolves and deer in this state.  The first link fails to mention the 200,000 deer harvested by hunting vs. the 40,000 by wolves.Anecdotal evidence is useful but the story, just as with the article you posted, is never told in its entirety and must be taken as just that, anecdotal and not
 universal.  We make jokes about it, not to make fun of you but because we are not alarmed at the issue.  Besides, my joke about the curtain was a subtext about the proposed fence between the US and Mexico.Regards,  -dave  On Tuesday, August 08, 2006 12:04 PM, Kirk McLoren wrote:  Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2006 10:04:45 -0700 (PDT)  From: Kirk McLoren  To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org  Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Wolf attack near GrangevilleThe Canadians wet themselves laughing when we trapped wolves to take South. And a hearty thank you eh. If you want to understand what is coming here examine where we got the wolves. One fellow setting traps said he saw 1 deer print in 10 days. Thats all - the sum total. Everything. --If that is your idea of ecology have at it.   
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Re: [Biofuel] Wolf attack near Grangeville

[Joe Street]

Cows be damned. I've had wolves howling a couple of kilometers from my
camp and awoken to the sound of a lone wolf howl on the opposite side
of me being answered by the pack in the original location.  A little
disturbing when you consider a student from the university where I work
was attacked and killed by wolves in northern Saskatchewan earlier this
year.  A couple of months ago I was in a remote area of the B.C.
islands and read a trail log entry from a solo kayaker who was charged
by a small wolf pack on a beach and had to defend himself with a peice
of driftwood.  The encroachment into each other's worlds currently
affects only a smal percentage of people and wolves but over time the
situation is not going to improve. Bears and mountain lions have a
similar story. I have very mixed feelings about this since after all I
am traveling in very wild places so I share some of the responsibility
for a potential encounter but I also am willing to accept that risk.
Others may not share that opinion and eventually there will be a call
for action.  One planet. Population exploding. People and animals have
to share it. Weapons of minor destruction everywhere. Who will win and
who will lose?  Need I say more?

Joe

DHAJOGLO wrote:

  Kirk,
   I think I understand your position.  And wolves are very keen preditors but again, I reiterate this link: 

http://www.ers.usda.gov/news/BSECoverage.htm

Cattle inventory

* January 1, 2003:
  o U.S.—96.1 million, down from 1996 peak of 103.5 million
  o Canada—13.5 million head
*  January 1, 2004
  o U.S.—94.9 million head (cyclical low)
  o Canada—14.7 million head


With an estimated 50,000 wolves (http://www.wolfsongalaska.org/canadian_wolves.html) it appears that Canada still has cows.

Now, lets look at the per capita comparisons:

.4 cows per person in Canada (32,000,000 pop: http://www40.statcan.ca/l01/cst01/demo02.htm?sdi=population )
.3 cows per person in the US (presuming 295 million as the population)

In 1982, the US had about 39 Million head of beef cattle and now, we have 33.9 million. http://usda.mannlib.cornell.edu/usda/current/Catt/Catt-07-21-2006.pdf and there seems enough to go around.  As far as the wildlife are concerned, that too is too complex to simply sum up with local data.

So, yes, many don't see the wolf problem in the news.  But then again, those who do see it probably fail to look at the broader picture and just presume that Wolves are a threat to all of us.  Like I said, in Minnesota wolves are an issue but I don't fear for my life and the wildlife is certainly not doing badly with the wolves. http://www.dnr.state.mn.us/mammals/deer/facts.html and http://www.mnforsustain.org/wolf_mech_and_nelson_wolves_deer_harvest.htm show the numbers for wolves and deer in this state.  The first link fails to mention the 200,000 deer harvested by hunting vs. the 40,000 by wolves.

Anecdotal evidence is useful but the story, just as with the article you posted, is never told in its entirety and must be taken as just that, anecdotal and not universal.  We make jokes about it, not to make fun of you but because we are not alarmed at the issue.  Besides, my joke about the curtain was a subtext about the proposed fence between the US and Mexico.

Regards,
-dave


On Tuesday, August 08, 2006 12:04 PM, Kirk McLoren wrote:
  
  
Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2006 10:04:45 -0700 (PDT)
From: Kirk McLoren
To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Wolf attack near Grangeville

The Canadians wet themselves laughing when we trapped wolves to take South. And a hearty thank you eh. If you want to understand what is coming here examine where we got the wolves. One fellow setting traps said he saw 1 deer print in 10 days. Thats all - the sum total. Everything. --If that is your idea of ecology have at it.


  
  

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Re: [Biofuel] Wolf attack near Grangeville

[DHAJOGLO]

Kirk,
   I think I understand your position.  And wolves are very keen preditors but 
again, I reiterate this link: 

http://www.ers.usda.gov/news/BSECoverage.htm

Cattle inventory

* January 1, 2003:
  o U.S.—96.1 million, down from 1996 peak of 103.5 million
  o Canada—13.5 million head
*  January 1, 2004
  o U.S.—94.9 million head (cyclical low)
  o Canada—14.7 million head


With an estimated 50,000 wolves 
(http://www.wolfsongalaska.org/canadian_wolves.html) it appears that Canada 
still has cows.

Now, lets look at the per capita comparisons:

.4 cows per person in Canada (32,000,000 pop: 
http://www40.statcan.ca/l01/cst01/demo02.htm?sdi=population )
.3 cows per person in the US (presuming 295 million as the population)

In 1982, the US had about 39 Million head of beef cattle and now, we have 33.9 
million. http://usda.mannlib.cornell.edu/usda/current/Catt/Catt-07-21-2006.pdf 
and there seems enough to go around.  As far as the wildlife are concerned, 
that too is too complex to simply sum up with local data.

So, yes, many don't see the wolf problem in the news.  But then again, those 
who do see it probably fail to look at the broader picture and just presume 
that Wolves are a threat to all of us.  Like I said, in Minnesota wolves are an 
issue but I don't fear for my life and the wildlife is certainly not doing 
badly with the wolves. http://www.dnr.state.mn.us/mammals/deer/facts.html and 
http://www.mnforsustain.org/wolf_mech_and_nelson_wolves_deer_harvest.htm show 
the numbers for wolves and deer in this state.  The first link fails to mention 
the 200,000 deer harvested by hunting vs. the 40,000 by wolves.

Anecdotal evidence is useful but the story, just as with the article you 
posted, is never told in its entirety and must be taken as just that, anecdotal 
and not universal.  We make jokes about it, not to make fun of you but because 
we are not alarmed at the issue.  Besides, my joke about the curtain was a 
subtext about the proposed fence between the US and Mexico.

Regards,
-dave


On Tuesday, August 08, 2006 12:04 PM, Kirk McLoren wrote:
>
>Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2006 10:04:45 -0700 (PDT)
>From: Kirk McLoren
>To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Wolf attack near Grangeville
>
>The Canadians wet themselves laughing when we trapped wolves to take South. 
>And a hearty thank you eh. If you want to understand what is coming here 
>examine where we got the wolves. One fellow setting traps said he saw 1 deer 
>print in 10 days. Thats all - the sum total. Everything. --If that is your 
>idea of ecology have at it.
>


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Re: [Biofuel] Wolf attack near Grangeville

[Kirk McLoren]

The Canadians wet themselves laughing when we trapped wolves to take South. And a hearty thank you eh. If you want to understand what is coming here examine where we got the wolves. One fellow setting traps said he saw 1 deer print in 10 days. Thats all - the sum total. Everything. --If that is your idea of ecology have at it.     When Lewis and Clark walked these hills there were no fences and no agriculture. The elk are shy and also arent real fond of fences. They tend to congregate away from people.  Wolves were introduced back there and now no elk calves. Pretty soon no adult elk. Then, rather than starve, and becoming used to people wolves move closer and closer till the stories of yore are the stories of today. All the denial in the world wont change this. Then when it is irrefutable that they arent teddy bears and fuzzywuzzy toddlers toys we will do a control program - until the next generation of city folk think they
 understand nature.  In the meantime they expect the flow of lamb and hamburger to continue without hindrance.  The press is guilty too. (the news is objective and reliable ;)  ) I know personally of griz attacks and people hospitalized or killed and the news never leaves the county. Except for the relatives of the dead guy.  Oh well. Everyone has their warm and fuzzy. To hell with reality. But reality has a nasty habit of not remaining ignored. I am becoming of the opinion most people have to learn the hard way. Their bias and projections rule their minds and not observable facts. It doesnt seem reasonable let alone obvious the problem will return as it once was.     KirkMichael Redler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:DHAJOGLO wrote: "I, for one, blame the Canadians and
 feel we should build a large wolf fence between us and Canada.  I call it, 'The Maple Curtain!'"     LOL!     "From the Yukon on the Pacific to Labrador in the Atlantic a maple curtain has descended across the Continent. Behind that line lie all the capitals of the civilized states of the Western hemisphere. Vancouver, Windsor, Toronto, Halifax, Quebec (yes, Quebec too!); all these famous cities and the populations around them lie in what I must call the Beaver sphere...".Joe Street <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:   Nah Canadian wolves are too proud to enter the U.S.DHAJOGLO wrote:  On Monday,   August 07, 2006  6:57 PM, JJJN wrote: 
 Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2006 16:57:27 -0700  From: JJJN  To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org  Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Wolf attack near Grangeville...Don't get me wrong I like to see wolves but I struggle with   how they fit into the agricultural areas of Eastern Montana. I think you are struggling with the wrong question: how do we fit into the wolves habitat after having turned it into an agricultural area?  I, for one, blame the Canadians and feel we should build a large wolf fence between us and Canada.  I call it, "The Maple Curtain!"  ___Biofuel mailing
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Re: [Biofuel] Wolf attack near Grangeville

[Michael Redler]

DHAJOGLO wrote: "I, for one, blame the Canadians and feel we should build a large wolf fence between us and Canada.  I call it, 'The Maple Curtain!'"     LOL!     "From the Yukon on the Pacific to Labrador in the Atlantic a maple curtain has descended across the Continent. Behind that line lie all the capitals of the civilized states of the Western hemisphere. Vancouver, Windsor, Toronto, Halifax, Quebec (yes, Quebec too!); all these famous cities and the populations around them lie in what I must call the Beaver sphere...".Joe Street <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:   Nah Canadian wolves are too proud to enter the U.S.DHAJOGLO wrote:  On Monday,
 August 07, 2006  6:57 PM, JJJN wrote:  Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2006 16:57:27 -0700  From: JJJN  To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org  Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Wolf attack near Grangeville...Don't get me wrong I like to see wolves but I struggle with   how they fit into the agricultural areas of Eastern Montana. I think you are struggling with the wrong question: how do we fit into the wolves habitat after having turned it into an agricultural area?  I, for one, blame the Canadians and feel we should build a large wolf fence between us and Canada.  I call it, "The Maple Curtain!"  ___
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Re: [Biofuel] Wolf attack near Grangeville

[Joe Street]

Nah Canadian wolves are too proud to enter the U.S.

DHAJOGLO wrote:

  On Monday, August 07, 2006  6:57 PM, JJJN wrote:
  
  
Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2006 16:57:27 -0700
From: JJJN
To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Wolf attack near Grangeville


  
  ...Don't get me wrong I like to see wolves but I struggle with 
  
  
how they fit into the agricultural areas of Eastern Montana. 

  
  
I think you are struggling with the wrong question: how do we fit into the wolves habitat after having turned it into an agricultural area?  I, for one, blame the Canadians and feel we should build a large wolf fence between us and Canada.  I call it, "The Maple Curtain!"


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Re: [Biofuel] Wolf attack near Grangeville

[DHAJOGLO]

On Monday, August 07, 2006  6:57 PM, JJJN wrote:
>
>Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2006 16:57:27 -0700
>From: JJJN
>To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Wolf attack near Grangeville
>
...Don't get me wrong I like to see wolves but I struggle with 
>how they fit into the agricultural areas of Eastern Montana. 

I think you are struggling with the wrong question: how do we fit into the 
wolves habitat after having turned it into an agricultural area?  I, for one, 
blame the Canadians and feel we should build a large wolf fence between us and 
Canada.  I call it, "The Maple Curtain!"


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Re: [Biofuel] Wolf attack near Grangeville

[Mike Weaver]

Keith is too skinny

Paul S Cantrell wrote:

> Oh wait, now I'm confused...I thought you were making BD from the 
> sheep, but now it is the wolves???  Little Red Riding Hood  couldn't 
> keep up.
>
> On 8/7/06, *Zeke Yewdall * <[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> > wrote:
>
> well there was the thread a while ago about making biodiesel
> from cats, and I recall we were going to turn Keith into
> biodiesel, so I imagine you could use wolves too.
>
>
> On 8/7/06, *Mike Weaver* <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > wrote:
>
>
> Yeah, whatever.  Can you make biodiesel out of them?
>
> Zeke Yewdall wrote:
>
>> Somehow, I doubt the wolves posess much danger to the elk and
> deer
>> populations long term, as they evolved together.  They weren't a
>> "problem" for thousands and thousands of years.  Putting domestic
>> animals that were relatively easy to kill, and that we "owned" in
>> place of the native game was when the problem began.  It's
> sort of
>> like leaving all your food out on the ground in bear country,
> and then
>> claiming the bears are the problem.  We've compounded it by
> reducing
>> habitat for the wild game, so the wolves learn to eat other
> prey that
>> they normally wouldn't.  It a classic case of overpopulation
> of an
>> atypical food species, which is usually kept in check by an
> increase
>> in predators that can eat them, but normally don't.  It's
> just rather
>> uncomfortable to find that we and our livestock are the food
> species
>> in this equation, instead of some hapless field mice or such.
>>
>> That being said, I don't relish being eaten, so I think that
> killing
>> wolves that learn that humans are potential prey would
> probably be a
>> good idea.  Long term, it's not going to solve anything since
> we've
>> caused the situation.  But long term, it wouldnt be good for
> wolves to
>> learn that humans are prey, even after they have their native
> game back.
>>
>> On 8/7/06, *Kirk McLoren* < [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
>>  >> wrote:
>>
>> I lived in Montana for many years and some people still
> remember
>> the effort and expense we went to to remove them. Just
> remember
>> those midwest feedlots often fatten calves from Montana
> Dakota
>> Idaho Wyoming. They would be hard pressed to find stock
> without
>> those producers. That is what will happen if nothing is
> done. That
>> 60 ewes I quoted was as of last May, I dont have more
> recent info
>> as we sold our home back there.
>> When the game are gone then they hunt domestic animals.
> We are in
>> that transition now.
>> So far they just pay the rancher for the carcasses. I
> havent seen
>> much re control.
>> I think it reasonable they will become the problem they
> once were.
>> They are still wolves and do what wolves do.
>> Predators are predators.
>> Kirk
>>
>>
>> */DHAJOGLO <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>   >>/* wrote:
>> Kirk,
>> I can't tell from your comment on this article whether
> you feel
>> issues with wolves are dealt with improperly or if you
> feel the
>> meat industry is going to take a real beating from them.
> We have
>> wolves here in Minnesota and the farmers truly hate them.
> However,
>> seeing as how the northern states make up a smaller
> percentage of
>> beef production, it seems the wolf impact would be
> negligible.
>> Looking at the USDA site, it appears that the beef
> populations
>> would have to take a significant hit (in the order of
> hundreds of
>> thousands) to really be impacted. Also, reading the post by
>> Richard, he seems more concerned about the game
> populations and
>> our safety.
>>
>> Anyway, here is the link to the USDA with the numbers of our
>> cattle industry:
> http://www.ers.usda.gov/news/BSECoverage.htm
> 
>> 
>>
>> Regards,
>> -dave
>>
>>>Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2006 11:03:57 -0700 (PDT)
>>>From: Kirk McLoren
>>>To: biofuel
>>>Subject: [Biofuel] Wolf attack near Grangeville
>>>
>>>If you think beef is expensive now wait till more of them start
>>>hunting cows instead of deer and elk. A wolf in Stanfield
> killed 8
>>>steers in one night. So much for "they only kill for food". They
>>>started on sheep last year. Some ranchers are going out of
> business
>>>soon. One fellow lost over 60 ewes this spring.
>>>I bet none of you read any of this in the newspaper though.
> Or on tv.

Re: [Biofuel] Wolf attack near Grangeville

[Paul S Cantrell]

Oh wait, now I'm confused...I thought you were making BD from the sheep, but now it is the wolves???  Little Red Riding Hood  couldn't keep up.On 8/7/06, Zeke Yewdall
 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:well there was the thread a while ago about making biodiesel from cats, and I recall we were going to turn Keith into biodiesel, so I imagine you could use wolves too.
On 8/7/06, 
Mike Weaver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Yeah, whatever.  Can you make biodiesel out of them?Zeke Yewdall wrote:> Somehow, I doubt the wolves posess much danger to the elk and deer> populations long term, as they evolved together.  They weren't a
> "problem" for thousands and thousands of years.  Putting domestic> animals that were relatively easy to kill, and that we "owned" in> place of the native game was when the problem began.  It's sort of
> like leaving all your food out on the ground in bear country, and then> claiming the bears are the problem.  We've compounded it by reducing> habitat for the wild game, so the wolves learn to eat other prey that
> they normally wouldn't.  It a classic case of overpopulation of an> atypical food species, which is usually kept in check by an increase> in predators that can eat them, but normally don't.  It's just rather
> uncomfortable to find that we and our livestock are the food species> in this equation, instead of some hapless field mice or such.>> That being said, I don't relish being eaten, so I think that killing
> wolves that learn that humans are potential prey would probably be a> good idea.  Long term, it's not going to solve anything since we've> caused the situation.  But long term, it wouldnt be good for wolves to
> learn that humans are prey, even after they have their native game back.>> On 8/7/06, *Kirk McLoren* <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]>> wrote:>> I lived in Montana for many years and some people still remember> the effort and expense we went to to remove them. Just remember> those midwest feedlots often fatten calves from Montana Dakota
> Idaho Wyoming. They would be hard pressed to find stock without> those producers. That is what will happen if nothing is done. That> 60 ewes I quoted was as of last May, I dont have more recent info
> as we sold our home back there.> When the game are gone then they hunt domestic animals. We are in> that transition now.> So far they just pay the rancher for the carcasses. I havent seen
> much re control.> I think it reasonable they will become the problem they once were.> They are still wolves and do what wolves do.> Predators are predators.> Kirk

>>> */DHAJOGLO <[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]>>/* wrote:> Kirk,> I can't tell from your comment on this article whether you feel
> issues with wolves are dealt with improperly or if you feel the> meat industry is going to take a real beating from them. We have> wolves here in Minnesota and the farmers truly hate them. However,
> seeing as how the northern states make up a smaller percentage of> beef production, it seems the wolf impact would be negligible.> Looking at the USDA site, it appears that the beef populations
> would have to take a significant hit (in the order of hundreds of> thousands) to really be impacted. Also, reading the post by> Richard, he seems more concerned about the game populations and
> our safety.>> Anyway, here is the link to the USDA with the numbers of our> cattle industry: 
http://www.ers.usda.gov/news/BSECoverage.htm
> >> Regards,
> -dave>>>Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2006 11:03:57 -0700 (PDT)
>>From: Kirk McLoren>>To: biofuel>>Subject: [Biofuel] Wolf attack near GrangevilleIf you think beef is expensive now wait till more of them start>>hunting cows instead of deer and elk. A wolf in Stanfield killed 8
>>steers in one night. So much for "they only kill for food". They>>started on sheep last year. Some ranchers are going out of business>>soon. One fellow lost over 60 ewes this spring.
>>I bet none of you read any of this in the newspaper though. Or on tv.>>Kirk>>"Lady and Blackey: Cry WolfBy Scott Richard
 Hi, my name is Scott Richards and>>> ___> Biofuel mailing list> 

Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Biofuel@sustainablelists.org>> 

http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org>> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:> 
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>> Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000> messages):> 
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
>>> > Groups are talking. We´re listening. Check out the handy changes> to Yahoo! Groups.> <
http://pa.yahoo.com/*http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=41144/*http://groups.yahoo.com/loc

Re: [Biofuel] Wolf attack near Grangeville

[Zeke Yewdall]

well there was the thread a while ago about making biodiesel from cats, and I recall we were going to turn Keith into biodiesel, so I imagine you could use wolves too.On 8/7/06, 
Mike Weaver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Yeah, whatever.  Can you make biodiesel out of them?Zeke Yewdall wrote:> Somehow, I doubt the wolves posess much danger to the elk and deer> populations long term, as they evolved together.  They weren't a
> "problem" for thousands and thousands of years.  Putting domestic> animals that were relatively easy to kill, and that we "owned" in> place of the native game was when the problem began.  It's sort of
> like leaving all your food out on the ground in bear country, and then> claiming the bears are the problem.  We've compounded it by reducing> habitat for the wild game, so the wolves learn to eat other prey that
> they normally wouldn't.  It a classic case of overpopulation of an> atypical food species, which is usually kept in check by an increase> in predators that can eat them, but normally don't.  It's just rather
> uncomfortable to find that we and our livestock are the food species> in this equation, instead of some hapless field mice or such.>> That being said, I don't relish being eaten, so I think that killing
> wolves that learn that humans are potential prey would probably be a> good idea.  Long term, it's not going to solve anything since we've> caused the situation.  But long term, it wouldnt be good for wolves to
> learn that humans are prey, even after they have their native game back.>> On 8/7/06, *Kirk McLoren* <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]>> wrote:>> I lived in Montana for many years and some people still remember> the effort and expense we went to to remove them. Just remember> those midwest feedlots often fatten calves from Montana Dakota
> Idaho Wyoming. They would be hard pressed to find stock without> those producers. That is what will happen if nothing is done. That> 60 ewes I quoted was as of last May, I dont have more recent info
> as we sold our home back there.> When the game are gone then they hunt domestic animals. We are in> that transition now.> So far they just pay the rancher for the carcasses. I havent seen
> much re control.> I think it reasonable they will become the problem they once were.> They are still wolves and do what wolves do.> Predators are predators.> Kirk
>>> */DHAJOGLO <[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]>>/* wrote:> Kirk,> I can't tell from your comment on this article whether you feel
> issues with wolves are dealt with improperly or if you feel the> meat industry is going to take a real beating from them. We have> wolves here in Minnesota and the farmers truly hate them. However,
> seeing as how the northern states make up a smaller percentage of> beef production, it seems the wolf impact would be negligible.> Looking at the USDA site, it appears that the beef populations
> would have to take a significant hit (in the order of hundreds of> thousands) to really be impacted. Also, reading the post by> Richard, he seems more concerned about the game populations and
> our safety.>> Anyway, here is the link to the USDA with the numbers of our> cattle industry: http://www.ers.usda.gov/news/BSECoverage.htm
> >> Regards,> -dave>>>Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2006 11:03:57 -0700 (PDT)
>>From: Kirk McLoren>>To: biofuel>>Subject: [Biofuel] Wolf attack near GrangevilleIf you think beef is expensive now wait till more of them start>>hunting cows instead of deer and elk. A wolf in Stanfield killed 8
>>steers in one night. So much for "they only kill for food". They>>started on sheep last year. Some ranchers are going out of business>>soon. One fellow lost over 60 ewes this spring.
>>I bet none of you read any of this in the newspaper though. Or on tv.>>Kirk>>"Lady and Blackey: Cry WolfBy Scott Richard
 Hi, my name is Scott Richards and>>> ___> Biofuel mailing list> 
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Biofuel@sustainablelists.org>> 
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org>> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>> Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000> messages):> http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
>>> > Groups are talking. We´re listening. Check out the handy changes> to Yahoo! Groups.> <
http://pa.yahoo.com/*http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=41144/*http://groups.yahoo.com/local/newemail.html>>
>> ___> Biofuel mailing list> Biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org>> http://sustainablelists.org/mailman

Re: [Biofuel] Wolf attack near Grangeville

[Kirk McLoren]

pyrolytic distillation.  Drive the steam off and cap it.     KirkMike Weaver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:  Yeah, whatever. Can you make biodiesel out of them?Zeke Yewdall wrote:> Somehow, I doubt the wolves posess much danger to the elk and deer > populations long term, as they evolved together. They weren't a > "problem" for thousands and thousands of years. Putting domestic > animals that were relatively easy to kill, and that we "owned" in > place of the native game was when the problem began. It's sort of > like leaving all your food out on the ground in bear country, and then > claiming the bears are the problem. We've compounded it by reducing > habitat for the wild game, so the wolves learn to eat other prey that >
 they normally wouldn't. It a classic case of overpopulation of an > atypical food species, which is usually kept in check by an increase > in predators that can eat them, but normally don't. It's just rather > uncomfortable to find that we and our livestock are the food species > in this equation, instead of some hapless field mice or such.>> That being said, I don't relish being eaten, so I think that killing > wolves that learn that humans are potential prey would probably be a > good idea. Long term, it's not going to solve anything since we've > caused the situation. But long term, it wouldnt be good for wolves to > learn that humans are prey, even after they have their native game back.>> On 8/7/06, *Kirk McLoren* <[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > wrote:>> I lived in Montana for many years and some people still remember> the effort
 and expense we went to to remove them. Just remember> those midwest feedlots often fatten calves from Montana Dakota> Idaho Wyoming. They would be hard pressed to find stock without> those producers. That is what will happen if nothing is done. That> 60 ewes I quoted was as of last May, I dont have more recent info> as we sold our home back there.> When the game are gone then they hunt domestic animals. We are in> that transition now.> So far they just pay the rancher for the carcasses. I havent seen> much re control.> I think it reasonable they will become the problem they once were.> They are still wolves and do what wolves do.> Predators are predators.> Kirk> 
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Re: [Biofuel] Wolf attack near Grangeville

[JJJN]

Zeke Yewdall wrote:

> Somehow, I doubt the wolves posess much danger to the elk and deer 
> populations long term,

Actually they help restore balance to the areas, to a more natural 
existence when they evolved together this is true, But when you take 
wolves away for a hundred years then spring them back in you put the 
ungulates at a terrible disadvantage and as a result you have some areas 
that are now void of them as a result - No that does not mean they will 
kill them all or will it stay that way,but now we are asking ungulates 
to catch up on 100 years of evolution that the wolves never missed out 
on. What it means is change for everything concerned.  I think in 
another 100 years the balance will return and in places like Yellowstone 
we will see many benefits and some benefits are happening right now.

> as they evolved together.  They weren't a "problem" for thousands and 
> thousands of years.  Putting domestic animals that were relatively 
> easy to kill, and that we "owned" in place of the native game was when 
> the problem began.  It's sort of like leaving all your food out on the 
> ground in bear country, and then claiming the bears are the problem.  
> We've compounded it by reducing habitat for the wild game, so the 
> wolves learn to eat other prey that they normally wouldn't.

Actually the biggest problem is not the Wolf eating Cows and Sheep, That 
will put many of the poor and small farmers out of business in time but 
the Monforts will afford protection.  The BIG problem is how they can re 
distribute the Ungulate populations as they leave areas they once fled 
to for protection. The opposite is now happening , Ungulates are fleeing 
to the agricultural areas as they are protected now from hunters most of 
the year there.This affords them temporary protection from Wolves.  It 
is on these crop lands that the Elk and Deer find ample food and 
protection, at least until the Wolf expands his range.  So then we plan 
to hunt the wolf.  That plan just affords the elk protection to 
overpopulate and we have Millions of dollars in damages on crop lands, 
And wolves forced into the Badlands by hunters, will survive  just fine 
on ample grazing livestock. So it is a loose loose situation for the 
Livestock or crop producer.  The Feds provide no relief to the producers 
for the damages and only the big corporate producers will survive this 
human inflicted mess. We hunters will kill wolves as we are allowed, but 
until you understand how much damage one wolf can do, you will never 
understand that hunting as a control is to little to late.  It took 
Hunters, trappers, and cyanide getter guns 70 years to push the wolf 
back in the early days.  It is just humorous to think that the that the 
plan is to hunt them for a control measure.  When the wolf gets 
established in the badlands, that control will be about as effective as 
a fly swatter for mosquitoes.

> It a classic case of overpopulation of an atypical food species, which 
> is usually kept in check by an increase in predators that can eat 
> them, but normally don't.  It's just rather uncomfortable to find that 
> we and our livestock are the food species in this equation, instead of 
> some hapless field mice or such.

When you take an Equation eliminate 7 variables, add 10 new ones, 
eliminate 2 that can never be restored, because of the first 7 then add 
back 5 of the first,  the equation will never return the results it did 
before the original intervention. As a result we will never know the 
land as Lewis and Clark did. 

Global Warming will probably wipe out these folks much faster so it is a 
moot point anyway.

>
> That being said, I don't relish being eaten, so I think that killing 
> wolves that learn that humans are potential prey would probably be a 
> good idea.  Long term, it's not going to solve anything since we've 
> caused the situation.  But long term, it wouldnt be good for wolves to 
> learn that humans are prey, even after they have their native game back.

Yes I agree,  Thats why I carry a BIG stick.  I hope I don't sound 
scorching or preaching, I don't intend it if I do, I simply want to make 
the point this is not a simple problem we have created for ourselves.

Jim

>
> On 8/7/06, *Kirk McLoren* <[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> > wrote:
>
> I lived in Montana for many years and some people still remember
> the effort and expense we went to to remove them. Just remember
> those midwest feedlots often fatten calves from Montana Dakota
> Idaho Wyoming. They would be hard pressed to find stock without
> those producers. That is what will happen if nothing is done. That
> 60 ewes I quoted was as of last May, I dont have more recent info
> as we sold our home back there.
> When the game are gone then they hunt domestic animals. We are in
> that transition now.
> So far they just pay the rancher for the carcasses. I havent seen
> much re control.
>

Re: [Biofuel] Wolf attack near Grangeville

[JJJN]

There were several kill sites in this the two Counties invloved. at the 
time I understand the killing was on Private land. but that is not to 
say that there is not some public land involved.
Jim

Mike Weaver wrote:

>Just out of curiosity, was this on public or private land?
>
>JJJN wrote:
>
>  
>
>>We had a single (or pair of them, the feds could not be sure) Wolf Kill 
>>well over 100 Sheep. Over 50 in one night. When the Federal Fish and 
>>Wildlife finally authorized Federal trappers to Kill "one" Wolf They 
>>hunted it for 6 months in the badlands using an airplane and 4X4 with no 
>>success. Another confirmed sheep kill by wolf was reported in Dawson 
>>county 2 Months ago. Local trappers are sure from what they see that it 
>>is a mating pair not a Lobo. But then what do locals know about 
>>anything. Don't get me wrong I like to see wolves but I struggle with 
>>how they fit into the agricultural areas of Eastern Montana. Whats worse 
>>is the pathetic slow pace the Feds take and the arrogance they display 
>>to the State Fish Wildlife and Parks.
>>
>>Just venting,
>>Jim
>>
>>Kirk McLoren wrote:
>>
>> 
>>
>>
>>
>>>If you think beef is expensive now wait till more of them start
>>>hunting cows instead of deer and elk. A wolf in Stanfield killed 8
>>>steers in one night. So much for "they only kill for food". They
>>>started on sheep last year. Some ranchers are going out of business
>>>soon. One fellow lost over 60 ewes this spring.
>>>I bet none of you read any of this in the newspaper though. Or on tv.
>>>Kirk
>>>
>>>
>>>   " * Lady and Blackey: Cry Wolf
>>>   *
>>>   */ By Scott Richard
>>>   /*
>>>   Hi, my name is Scott Richards and I have lived in Grangeville ,
>>>   Idaho for the last 17 years. I have enjoyed training my hunting
>>>   dogs for the past 34 years. To do this it takes a great deal of
>>>   love for your dogs and for the great outdoors. I have always
>>>   prided myself in the manner of which I train my dogs and take care
>>>   of them. When I choose a new pup he or she spends the first 6
>>>   months of their life in my house. They are loved and a bond is
>>>   there forever. I do not believe there are bad dog’s, just
>>>   inexperienced owners. I have spent the last 4 years trying to
>>>   introduce this sport to as many young people as I could. My photo
>>>   albums are full of pictures with children setting under a tree
>>>   with the dogs telling them good job. That has all changed now! The
>>>   reason I am writing this story is not to debate whether the
>>>   Canadian gray wolf should be or should not be here. I am not going
>>>   to debate anyone about how many wolfs are really in the state of
>>>   Idaho . I will say our Elk, Moose and Deer populations are in
>>>   serious trouble now! The real reason I am telling this story is
>>>   that I have a conscience, and what happened to my dogs and me last
>>>   Wednesday 5/25/2006 at 9:45 in the morning. It’s been a few days
>>>   now and the shock has turned from fear to disbelief to anger and
>>>   now the major concern for the safety of anyone who lives in or
>>>   visits are state. My life that I have loved raising and training
>>>   these special working dogs is now over.
>>>
>>>   Crying wolf!!
>>>
>>>   This Wednesday morning started like most days when I am training
>>>   dogs. I was a few miles from my house and turned up the hill on
>>>   the Service Flats Road . I let my dogs out of the box; jumped into
>>>   my truck and followed them up the road for a mile letting them
>>>   clean out. I had 8 dogs with me and 7 of them were very
>>>   experienced 2, 3, and 4 year olds. I had one 5 month old pup. I
>>>   loaded 4 dogs on the top of the box and 4 inside the box. I did
>>>   not have to drive far and the dogs sounded off letting me know a
>>>   bear had crossed the road. My friend Bryon had driven up from
>>>   Lewiston to train some of his young dogs. I turned out a 4 year
>>>   old named Jasper, he left the road and let me know the track was
>>>   fresh. I told Bryon turn his dogs loose as I did. They quickly
>>>   dropped into a canyon where bears hang in the brushy bottoms in
>>>   daylight hours. When all the dogs reached the bottom 5 dogs went
>>>   up the other side of the canyon headed toward Fish Creek
>>>   campground. The other group of dogs came right back up the hill to
>>>   us. They put the bears in a tree 20 minutes later. The other group
>>>   of dogs treed about the same time about 1- 1/2 miles away. Bryon
>>>   and I went to the nearest dogs first. When we were under the tree
>>>   we found they had a mature sow and a 2-year-old cub. We took a few
>>>   pictures and we were back in the trucks ready to go to the other
>>>   dogs. We drove back up to where we heard the group of 5 dogs top
>>>   over and shortly there after tree the bear. When we checked where
>>>   the dogs still had the bear treed. We drove as close as we could &
>>>   stopped and listened, they were about 4 hundred yards awa

Re: [Biofuel] Wolf attack near Grangeville

[Mike Weaver]

Yeah, whatever.  Can you make biodiesel out of them?

Zeke Yewdall wrote:

> Somehow, I doubt the wolves posess much danger to the elk and deer 
> populations long term, as they evolved together.  They weren't a 
> "problem" for thousands and thousands of years.  Putting domestic 
> animals that were relatively easy to kill, and that we "owned" in 
> place of the native game was when the problem began.  It's sort of 
> like leaving all your food out on the ground in bear country, and then 
> claiming the bears are the problem.  We've compounded it by reducing 
> habitat for the wild game, so the wolves learn to eat other prey that 
> they normally wouldn't.  It a classic case of overpopulation of an 
> atypical food species, which is usually kept in check by an increase 
> in predators that can eat them, but normally don't.  It's just rather 
> uncomfortable to find that we and our livestock are the food species 
> in this equation, instead of some hapless field mice or such.
>
> That being said, I don't relish being eaten, so I think that killing 
> wolves that learn that humans are potential prey would probably be a 
> good idea.  Long term, it's not going to solve anything since we've 
> caused the situation.  But long term, it wouldnt be good for wolves to 
> learn that humans are prey, even after they have their native game back.
>
> On 8/7/06, *Kirk McLoren* <[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> > wrote:
>
> I lived in Montana for many years and some people still remember
> the effort and expense we went to to remove them. Just remember
> those midwest feedlots often fatten calves from Montana Dakota
> Idaho Wyoming. They would be hard pressed to find stock without
> those producers. That is what will happen if nothing is done. That
> 60 ewes I quoted was as of last May, I dont have more recent info
> as we sold our home back there.
> When the game are gone then they hunt domestic animals. We are in
> that transition now.
> So far they just pay the rancher for the carcasses. I havent seen
> much re control.
> I think it reasonable they will become the problem they once were.
> They are still wolves and do what wolves do.
> Predators are predators.
> Kirk
>
>
> */DHAJOGLO <[EMAIL PROTECTED] >/* wrote:
> Kirk,
> I can't tell from your comment on this article whether you feel
> issues with wolves are dealt with improperly or if you feel the
> meat industry is going to take a real beating from them. We have
> wolves here in Minnesota and the farmers truly hate them. However,
> seeing as how the northern states make up a smaller percentage of
> beef production, it seems the wolf impact would be negligible.
> Looking at the USDA site, it appears that the beef populations
> would have to take a significant hit (in the order of hundreds of
> thousands) to really be impacted. Also, reading the post by
> Richard, he seems more concerned about the game populations and
> our safety.
>
> Anyway, here is the link to the USDA with the numbers of our
> cattle industry: http://www.ers.usda.gov/news/BSECoverage.htm
> 
>
> Regards,
> -dave
>
>>Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2006 11:03:57 -0700 (PDT)
>>From: Kirk McLoren
>>To: biofuel
>>Subject: [Biofuel] Wolf attack near Grangeville
>>
>>If you think beef is expensive now wait till more of them start
>>hunting cows instead of deer and elk. A wolf in Stanfield killed 8
>>steers in one night. So much for "they only kill for food". They
>>started on sheep last year. Some ranchers are going out of business
>>soon. One fellow lost over 60 ewes this spring.
>>I bet none of you read any of this in the newspaper though. Or on tv.
>>Kirk
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>"Lady and Blackey: Cry Wolf
>>
>>By Scott Richard
>>
>> Hi, my name is Scott Richards and
>
>
> ___
> Biofuel mailing list
> Biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
> http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
>
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
> Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000
> messages):
> http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
>
>
> 
> Groups are talking. We´re listening. Check out the handy changes
> to Yahoo! Groups.
> 
> 
>
>
> ___
> Biofuel mailing list
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> http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
> 
> 

Re: [Biofuel] Wolf attack near Grangeville

[Mike Weaver]

Just out of curiosity, was this on public or private land?

JJJN wrote:

>We had a single (or pair of them, the feds could not be sure) Wolf Kill 
>well over 100 Sheep. Over 50 in one night. When the Federal Fish and 
>Wildlife finally authorized Federal trappers to Kill "one" Wolf They 
>hunted it for 6 months in the badlands using an airplane and 4X4 with no 
>success. Another confirmed sheep kill by wolf was reported in Dawson 
>county 2 Months ago. Local trappers are sure from what they see that it 
>is a mating pair not a Lobo. But then what do locals know about 
>anything. Don't get me wrong I like to see wolves but I struggle with 
>how they fit into the agricultural areas of Eastern Montana. Whats worse 
>is the pathetic slow pace the Feds take and the arrogance they display 
>to the State Fish Wildlife and Parks.
>
>Just venting,
>Jim
>
>Kirk McLoren wrote:
>
>  
>
>>If you think beef is expensive now wait till more of them start
>>hunting cows instead of deer and elk. A wolf in Stanfield killed 8
>>steers in one night. So much for "they only kill for food". They
>>started on sheep last year. Some ranchers are going out of business
>>soon. One fellow lost over 60 ewes this spring.
>>I bet none of you read any of this in the newspaper though. Or on tv.
>>Kirk
>>
>>
>>" * Lady and Blackey: Cry Wolf
>>*
>>*/ By Scott Richard
>>/*
>>Hi, my name is Scott Richards and I have lived in Grangeville ,
>>Idaho for the last 17 years. I have enjoyed training my hunting
>>dogs for the past 34 years. To do this it takes a great deal of
>>love for your dogs and for the great outdoors. I have always
>>prided myself in the manner of which I train my dogs and take care
>>of them. When I choose a new pup he or she spends the first 6
>>months of their life in my house. They are loved and a bond is
>>there forever. I do not believe there are bad dog’s, just
>>inexperienced owners. I have spent the last 4 years trying to
>>introduce this sport to as many young people as I could. My photo
>>albums are full of pictures with children setting under a tree
>>with the dogs telling them good job. That has all changed now! The
>>reason I am writing this story is not to debate whether the
>>Canadian gray wolf should be or should not be here. I am not going
>>to debate anyone about how many wolfs are really in the state of
>>Idaho . I will say our Elk, Moose and Deer populations are in
>>serious trouble now! The real reason I am telling this story is
>>that I have a conscience, and what happened to my dogs and me last
>>Wednesday 5/25/2006 at 9:45 in the morning. It’s been a few days
>>now and the shock has turned from fear to disbelief to anger and
>>now the major concern for the safety of anyone who lives in or
>>visits are state. My life that I have loved raising and training
>>these special working dogs is now over.
>>
>>Crying wolf!!
>>
>>This Wednesday morning started like most days when I am training
>>dogs. I was a few miles from my house and turned up the hill on
>>the Service Flats Road . I let my dogs out of the box; jumped into
>>my truck and followed them up the road for a mile letting them
>>clean out. I had 8 dogs with me and 7 of them were very
>>experienced 2, 3, and 4 year olds. I had one 5 month old pup. I
>>loaded 4 dogs on the top of the box and 4 inside the box. I did
>>not have to drive far and the dogs sounded off letting me know a
>>bear had crossed the road. My friend Bryon had driven up from
>>Lewiston to train some of his young dogs. I turned out a 4 year
>>old named Jasper, he left the road and let me know the track was
>>fresh. I told Bryon turn his dogs loose as I did. They quickly
>>dropped into a canyon where bears hang in the brushy bottoms in
>>daylight hours. When all the dogs reached the bottom 5 dogs went
>>up the other side of the canyon headed toward Fish Creek
>>campground. The other group of dogs came right back up the hill to
>>us. They put the bears in a tree 20 minutes later. The other group
>>of dogs treed about the same time about 1- 1/2 miles away. Bryon
>>and I went to the nearest dogs first. When we were under the tree
>>we found they had a mature sow and a 2-year-old cub. We took a few
>>pictures and we were back in the trucks ready to go to the other
>>dogs. We drove back up to where we heard the group of 5 dogs top
>>over and shortly there after tree the bear. When we checked where
>>the dogs still had the bear treed. We drove as close as we could &
>>stopped and listened, they were about 4 hundred yards away treeing
>>solid. I made the decision to move the truck 200 yards to the low
>>side of the saddle; this would be an easy way back with the dogs.
>>When Bryon and I crested the hill instead of hearing a roar of
>>barking dogs treeing we heard nothing.

Re: [Biofuel] Wolf attack near Grangeville

[JJJN]

We had a single (or pair of them, the feds could not be sure) Wolf Kill 
well over 100 Sheep. Over 50 in one night. When the Federal Fish and 
Wildlife finally authorized Federal trappers to Kill "one" Wolf They 
hunted it for 6 months in the badlands using an airplane and 4X4 with no 
success. Another confirmed sheep kill by wolf was reported in Dawson 
county 2 Months ago. Local trappers are sure from what they see that it 
is a mating pair not a Lobo. But then what do locals know about 
anything. Don't get me wrong I like to see wolves but I struggle with 
how they fit into the agricultural areas of Eastern Montana. Whats worse 
is the pathetic slow pace the Feds take and the arrogance they display 
to the State Fish Wildlife and Parks.

Just venting,
Jim

Kirk McLoren wrote:

> If you think beef is expensive now wait till more of them start
> hunting cows instead of deer and elk. A wolf in Stanfield killed 8
> steers in one night. So much for "they only kill for food". They
> started on sheep last year. Some ranchers are going out of business
> soon. One fellow lost over 60 ewes this spring.
> I bet none of you read any of this in the newspaper though. Or on tv.
> Kirk
>
>
> " * Lady and Blackey: Cry Wolf
> *
> */ By Scott Richard
> /*
> Hi, my name is Scott Richards and I have lived in Grangeville ,
> Idaho for the last 17 years. I have enjoyed training my hunting
> dogs for the past 34 years. To do this it takes a great deal of
> love for your dogs and for the great outdoors. I have always
> prided myself in the manner of which I train my dogs and take care
> of them. When I choose a new pup he or she spends the first 6
> months of their life in my house. They are loved and a bond is
> there forever. I do not believe there are bad dog’s, just
> inexperienced owners. I have spent the last 4 years trying to
> introduce this sport to as many young people as I could. My photo
> albums are full of pictures with children setting under a tree
> with the dogs telling them good job. That has all changed now! The
> reason I am writing this story is not to debate whether the
> Canadian gray wolf should be or should not be here. I am not going
> to debate anyone about how many wolfs are really in the state of
> Idaho . I will say our Elk, Moose and Deer populations are in
> serious trouble now! The real reason I am telling this story is
> that I have a conscience, and what happened to my dogs and me last
> Wednesday 5/25/2006 at 9:45 in the morning. It’s been a few days
> now and the shock has turned from fear to disbelief to anger and
> now the major concern for the safety of anyone who lives in or
> visits are state. My life that I have loved raising and training
> these special working dogs is now over.
>
> Crying wolf!!
>
> This Wednesday morning started like most days when I am training
> dogs. I was a few miles from my house and turned up the hill on
> the Service Flats Road . I let my dogs out of the box; jumped into
> my truck and followed them up the road for a mile letting them
> clean out. I had 8 dogs with me and 7 of them were very
> experienced 2, 3, and 4 year olds. I had one 5 month old pup. I
> loaded 4 dogs on the top of the box and 4 inside the box. I did
> not have to drive far and the dogs sounded off letting me know a
> bear had crossed the road. My friend Bryon had driven up from
> Lewiston to train some of his young dogs. I turned out a 4 year
> old named Jasper, he left the road and let me know the track was
> fresh. I told Bryon turn his dogs loose as I did. They quickly
> dropped into a canyon where bears hang in the brushy bottoms in
> daylight hours. When all the dogs reached the bottom 5 dogs went
> up the other side of the canyon headed toward Fish Creek
> campground. The other group of dogs came right back up the hill to
> us. They put the bears in a tree 20 minutes later. The other group
> of dogs treed about the same time about 1- 1/2 miles away. Bryon
> and I went to the nearest dogs first. When we were under the tree
> we found they had a mature sow and a 2-year-old cub. We took a few
> pictures and we were back in the trucks ready to go to the other
> dogs. We drove back up to where we heard the group of 5 dogs top
> over and shortly there after tree the bear. When we checked where
> the dogs still had the bear treed. We drove as close as we could &
> stopped and listened, they were about 4 hundred yards away treeing
> solid. I made the decision to move the truck 200 yards to the low
> side of the saddle; this would be an easy way back with the dogs.
> When Bryon and I crested the hill instead of hearing a roar of
> barking dogs treeing we heard nothing. We were looking at each
> other like where did they go; we just heard them there 5 minutes
>   

Re: [Biofuel] Wolf attack near Grangeville

[Zeke Yewdall]

Somehow, I doubt the wolves posess much danger to the elk and deer populations long term, as they evolved together.  They weren't a "problem" for thousands and thousands of years.  Putting domestic animals that were relatively easy to kill, and that we "owned" in place of the native game was when the problem began.  It's sort of like leaving all your food out on the ground in bear country, and then claiming the bears are the problem.  We've compounded it by reducing habitat for the wild game, so the wolves learn to eat other prey that they normally wouldn't.  It a classic case of overpopulation of an atypical food species, which is usually kept in check by an increase in predators that can eat them, but normally don't.  It's just rather uncomfortable to find that we and our livestock are the food species in this equation, instead of some hapless field mice or such.
That being said, I don't relish being eaten, so I think that killing wolves that learn that humans are potential prey would probably be a good idea.  Long term, it's not going to solve anything since we've caused the situation.  But long term, it wouldnt be good for wolves to learn that humans are prey, even after they have their native game back.
On 8/7/06, Kirk McLoren <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I lived in Montana for many years and some people still remember the effort and expense we went to to remove them. Just remember those midwest feedlots often fatten calves from Montana Dakota Idaho Wyoming. They would be hard pressed to find stock without those producers. That is what will happen if nothing is done. That 60 ewes I quoted was as of last May, I dont have more recent info as we sold our home back there.
  When the game are gone then they hunt domestic animals. We are in that transition now.  So far they just pay the rancher for the carcasses. I havent seen much re control.  I think it reasonable they will become the problem they once were. They are still wolves and do what wolves do.
  Predators are predators.  KirkDHAJOGLO <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:  Kirk,I can't
 tell from your comment on this article whether you feel issues with wolves are dealt with improperly or if you feel the meat industry is going to take a real beating from them. We have wolves here in Minnesota and the farmers truly hate them. However, seeing as how the northern states make up a smaller percentage of beef production, it seems the wolf impact would be negligible. Looking at the USDA site, it appears that the beef populations would have to take a significant hit (in the order of hundreds of thousands) to really be impacted. Also, reading the post by Richard, he seems more concerned about the game populations and our safety.
Anyway, here is the link to the USDA with the numbers of our cattle industry: http://www.ers.usda.gov/news/BSECoverage.htm
Regards,-dave>Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2006 11:03:57 -0700 (PDT)>From: Kirk McLoren>To: biofuel >Subject: [Biofuel] Wolf attack near
 Grangeville>>If you think beef is expensive now wait till more of them start>hunting cows instead of deer and elk. A wolf in Stanfield killed 8>steers in one night. So much for "they only kill for food". They
>started on sheep last year. Some ranchers are going out of business>soon. One fellow lost over 60 ewes this spring.>I bet none of you read any of this in the newspaper though. Or on tv.>Kirk
>"Lady and Blackey: Cry Wolf>>By Scott Richard>> Hi, my name is Scott Richards and___Biofuel mailing list
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Re: [Biofuel] Wolf attack near Grangeville

[Kirk McLoren]

I lived in Montana for many years and some people still remember the effort and expense we went to to remove them. Just remember those midwest feedlots often fatten calves from Montana Dakota Idaho Wyoming. They would be hard pressed to find stock without those producers. That is what will happen if nothing is done. That 60 ewes I quoted was as of last May, I dont have more recent info as we sold our home back there.  When the game are gone then they hunt domestic animals. We are in that transition now.  So far they just pay the rancher for the carcasses. I havent seen much re control.  I think it reasonable they will become the problem they once were. They are still wolves and do what wolves do.  Predators are predators.  KirkDHAJOGLO <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:  Kirk,I can't
 tell from your comment on this article whether you feel issues with wolves are dealt with improperly or if you feel the meat industry is going to take a real beating from them. We have wolves here in Minnesota and the farmers truly hate them. However, seeing as how the northern states make up a smaller percentage of beef production, it seems the wolf impact would be negligible. Looking at the USDA site, it appears that the beef populations would have to take a significant hit (in the order of hundreds of thousands) to really be impacted. Also, reading the post by Richard, he seems more concerned about the game populations and our safety.Anyway, here is the link to the USDA with the numbers of our cattle industry: http://www.ers.usda.gov/news/BSECoverage.htmRegards,-dave>Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2006 11:03:57 -0700 (PDT)>From: Kirk McLoren>To: biofuel >Subject: [Biofuel] Wolf attack near
 Grangeville>>If you think beef is expensive now wait till more of them start>hunting cows instead of deer and elk. A wolf in Stanfield killed 8>steers in one night. So much for "they only kill for food". They>started on sheep last year. Some ranchers are going out of business>soon. One fellow lost over 60 ewes this spring.>I bet none of you read any of this in the newspaper though. Or on tv.>Kirk>"Lady and Blackey: Cry Wolf>>By Scott Richard>> Hi, my name is Scott Richards and___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000
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Re: [Biofuel] Wolf attack near Grangeville

[DHAJOGLO]

Kirk,
   I can't tell from your comment on this article whether you feel issues with 
wolves are dealt with improperly or if you feel the meat industry is going to 
take a real beating from them.  We have wolves here in Minnesota and the 
farmers truly  hate them.  However, seeing as how the northern states make up a 
smaller percentage of beef production, it seems the wolf impact would be 
negligible.  Looking at the USDA site, it appears that the beef populations 
would have to take a significant hit (in the order of hundreds of thousands) to 
really be impacted.  Also, reading the post by Richard, he seems more concerned 
about the game populations and our safety.

Anyway, here is the link to the USDA with the numbers of our cattle industry: 
http://www.ers.usda.gov/news/BSECoverage.htm

Regards,
-dave

>Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2006 11:03:57 -0700 (PDT)
>From: Kirk McLoren
>To: biofuel 
>Subject: [Biofuel] Wolf attack near Grangeville
>
>If you think beef is expensive now wait till more of them start
>hunting cows instead of deer and elk. A wolf in Stanfield killed 8
>steers in one night. So much for "they only kill for food". They
>started on sheep last year. Some ranchers are going out of business
>soon. One fellow lost over 60 ewes this spring.
>I bet none of you read any of this in the newspaper though. Or on tv.
>Kirk
>
>
>
>
>"Lady and Blackey: Cry Wolf
>
>By Scott Richard
>
>  Hi, my name is Scott Richards and


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