Re: [OSM-talk] [Overpass API] Query construction

[Ab_fab]

Hi Roland,




2011/12/6 Roland Olbricht roland.olbri...@gmx.de

>
> If you surpass the three minute limit, you should declare a longer runtime.
> This is done by surrounding the query with
>
> 
>
> ... (the query)
>
> 
>
I saw the description in the wiki, and I therefore used it, with a value
set at 600 -> 10 minutes.


> The runtime is given in seconds. Thus, this would announce a runtime of an
> hour. Any value up to 2592000 (a month of runtime) would be possible on the
> German server; the Russian server might go off after 20 minutes = 1200
> seconds, but is in general significantly faster. This looks a bit
> bureaucratic
> but in fact keeps the load under control: The server can safely terminate
> queries that have been accidentally runaway while serving well
> intentionally
> slow queries.
>

This is good to know



>
> Cheers,
>
> Roland
>

Have a nice day !

-- 
ab_fab 
"Il n'y a pas de pas perdus"
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] OSmosa.net run now.., contribution model

[Aun Johnsen]

It is not entirely correct that it is not possible to have a
distributed editing API, for example on osmosa.net, but that would
require a heavy redesign of the database, server and API parts of OSM.
Firstly to have this setup work properly one would need a clustered
database, where the database on osmosa.net to be a node of the same
database as on OSM.org. That would in most cases (though I havn't
researched into it) mean a redesign from postgreSQL to the clustered
database. Than all API calls must be redesigned to communicate to the
correct database, and significant changes in database architecture and
API would mean that most editors would need a complete brushup on the
way they commit data to OSM.

The answer as I see it is more in the line of "not possible today, and
not likely to be"

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] OSmosa.net run now.., contribution model

[80n]

On Tue, Dec 6, 2011 at 9:01 AM, Aun Johnsen  wrote:

> It is not entirely correct that it is not possible to have a
> distributed editing API, for example on osmosa.net, but that would
> require a heavy redesign of the database, server and API parts of OSM.
>

It's entirely possible.  We've been doing it, for real, for several months.

We've been taking OSM content and applying it to a separate database which
also has direct contributions. This is the opposite direction to what you
are contemplating, but the same principles apply.

All you have to do is:
1)  Generate minutely-diff files from your OSM instance, containing just
the local edits.
2) Post-process the diff files to change the id of any new elements to a
negative value.  This is simply a matter of multiplying the id by -1 if the
element's version attribute is 1.
3) Import to OSM using your favourite load tool.
4) Resolve any edit collisions.

In practice, the risk of edit collisions is very small, and when they do
happen it is non-destructive and easy to resolve with no special skills.

You might find there is political resistance to this idea from some OSM
people, but nobody can stop you from doing it.

80n
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] OSmosa.net run now.., contribution model

[Steve Bennett]

On Tue, Dec 6, 2011 at 10:11 PM, 80n <80n...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 2) Post-process the diff files to change the id of any new elements to a
> negative value.  This is simply a matter of multiplying the id by -1 if the
> element's version attribute is 1.

Naive question here: so the OSM copy ends up with negative numbers?
Isn't that bad? Also, in any case, you end up with different IDs in
the two databases, no? Or do you then also update the ID in the source
database to be negative as well, and then reset the id counter?

Steve

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] OSmosa.net run now.., contribution model

[Frans Thamura]

hi all

my idea about this program, because we teach contributor, and they are
start from 15 years old.

every of them "must" contribute to the map server, and if the map data
is not ok, or they remove the data.. i believe that will be nightmare,
if hundreds student do mistake.

but .. i think also wasting time, if we must redo what they did

www.facebook.com/meruvian > to know what will we do?

F


On Tue, Dec 6, 2011 at 7:28 PM, Steve Bennett  wrote:
> On Tue, Dec 6, 2011 at 10:11 PM, 80n <80n...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> 2) Post-process the diff files to change the id of any new elements to a
>> negative value.  This is simply a matter of multiplying the id by -1 if the
>> element's version attribute is 1.
>
> Naive question here: so the OSM copy ends up with negative numbers?
> Isn't that bad? Also, in any case, you end up with different IDs in
> the two databases, no? Or do you then also update the ID in the source
> database to be negative as well, and then reset the id counter?
>
> Steve
>
> ___
> talk mailing list
> talk@openstreetmap.org
> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

[OSM-talk] OSM SVN and API

[Frans Thamura]

hi all

just checkout the SVN of OSM, svn.osm.org

but still confuse, which one the API implementation

can help all?

esp this is a language that i am not familiar (too much java here )


--
Frans Thamura (曽志胜)
Chief of Advisory
Meruvian.
Integrated Hypermedia Java Solution Provider.

Mobile: +628557888699
Blog: http://blogs.mervpolis.com/roller/flatburger (id)

FB: http://www.facebook.com/meruvian
TW: http://www.twitter.com/meruvian / @meruvian
Website: http://www.meruvian.org

"We grow because we share the same belief."

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] OSM SVN and API

[Tom Hughes]

On 06/12/11 13:38, Frans Thamura wrote:


just checkout the SVN of OSM, svn.osm.org

but still confuse, which one the API implementation

can help all?


Well it's not in svn, so the reason why you can't find it is that you 
are looking in the wrong place. It's here:


  git://git.openstreetmap.org/rails.git
  http://git.openstreetmap.org/rails.git

Tom

--
Tom Hughes (t...@compton.nu)
http://compton.nu/

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

[OSM-talk] Moderating / Quality checking OSM contributions -- was: Re: OSmosa.net run now.., contribution model

[Jaakko Helleranta.com]

This is precisely what I've seen in Haiti and discussed with a number of the 
local contributors, too.

That is: as the contributors' tech-savvyness decreases we see a clear hike in 
various sorts of data problems.
Bundle that with not-so-large active user base (of people who do quality 
fixing) and you have a problematic situation at hand.

There were some really good replies earlier (imho) to the questions of 
moderation/quality_checking (I think this was a little while after SoTM -- 
check talk@osm archive if u missed them and are interested).

What I'd love to see and what the contributors here would also want to have is 
a system where contributors can flag their edits with something that would que 
the changesets in question to an (open) review stack.
This kind of review que wouldn't actually moderate anything but would simply 
flag the changesets for review ("quality ensurance", if u may).

This should most certainly b opt-in in general but imho it could and should b 
used used as default for eg situations where osm is taught in the classroom. 

I'd also very much like to see some (open) mechanism where users that cause 
problems time and again could be flagged like this. 

Not having _something_ like this is a major problem.

Example: I just spent nearly half day yesterday fixing one beginner's mess in 
PaP and am seeing that wasting time on things like this eats badly from the 
time that people who end up fixing them could have for creating neat things for 
OSM be it fixing/creating tools or partnerships, coordinating, or actual 
mapping.

Since I'm not a developer I can't unfortunately create anything that would 
solve the problem. But could someone tell me how much it would/could cost to 
create something that would?

I want to emphasize that this is something that not only the more advanced 
people would like to have (in the hopes that it would give them more time for 
doing something more useful, essentially, to b more productive for the project)
but it's also what many regular mappers have specifically asked for (in Haiti) 
as they don't want to break things.

Cheers,
-Jaakko

Sent from my BlackBerry® device from Digicel
--
Mobile: +509-37-26 91 54, Skype/GoogleTalk: jhelleranta

-Original Message-
From: Frans Thamura 
Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2011 19:52:54 
To: Steve Bennett
Cc: openstreetmap; Aun Johnsen
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] OSmosa.net run now.., contribution model

hi all

my idea about this program, because we teach contributor, and they are
start from 15 years old.

every of them "must" contribute to the map server, and if the map data
is not ok, or they remove the data.. i believe that will be nightmare,
if hundreds student do mistake.

but .. i think also wasting time, if we must redo what they did

www.facebook.com/meruvian > to know what will we do?

F


On Tue, Dec 6, 2011 at 7:28 PM, Steve Bennett  wrote:
> On Tue, Dec 6, 2011 at 10:11 PM, 80n <80n...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> 2) Post-process the diff files to change the id of any new elements to a
>> negative value.  This is simply a matter of multiplying the id by -1 if the
>> element's version attribute is 1.
>
> Naive question here: so the OSM copy ends up with negative numbers?
> Isn't that bad? Also, in any case, you end up with different IDs in
> the two databases, no? Or do you then also update the ID in the source
> database to be negative as well, and then reset the id counter?
>
> Steve
>
> ___
> talk mailing list
> talk@openstreetmap.org
> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] OSmosa.net run now.., contribution model

[Steve Doerr]

On 06/12/2011 11:11, 80n wrote:


2) Post-process the diff files to change the id of any new elements to 
a negative value.  This is simply a matter of multiplying the id by -1 
if the element's version attribute is 1.


Your local OSM then presumably then allocates the next available ID to 
the object - which I guess may be different from the ID it had in OSM? 
If so, what happens the next time the object is edited in OSM? Do you 
maintain a cross-reference between your IDs and OSM's?


--
Steve

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Moderating / Quality checking OSM contributions -- was: Re: OSmosa.net run now.., contribution model

[Serge Wroclawski]

On Tue, Dec 6, 2011 at 9:37 AM, Jaakko Helleranta.com
 wrote:
> This is precisely what I've seen in Haiti and discussed with a number of the 
> local contributors, too.
>
> That is: as the contributors' tech-savvyness decreases we see a clear hike in 
> various sorts of data problems.

This is an interesting conclusion.

Do you have evidence for what you're saying other than anecdotal evidence?

I've seen reports that say that as the total number of users
increases, the map quality goes up. You're saying the opposite, so I'd
like to see some kind of metric.

> Bundle that with not-so-large active user base (of people who do quality 
> fixing) and you have a problematic situation at hand.

This is why I'm asking for your approach in coming to the conclusion.
I see multiple factors in play.

> What I'd love to see and what the contributors here would also want to have 
> is a system where contributors can flag their edits with something that would 
> que the changesets in question to an (open) review stack.
> This kind of review que wouldn't actually moderate anything but would simply 
> flag the changesets for review ("quality ensurance", if u may).
>
> I'd also very much like to see some (open) mechanism where users that cause 
> problems time and again could be flagged like this.
>
> Not having _something_ like this is a major problem.

We don't have a moderation system. If you build one, then maybe
someone will think it's interesting/usefu and take a look. But right
now we don't have one, and many people don't want one.

The only way to change their minds would be to show it in use.

> Since I'm not a developer I can't unfortunately create anything that would 
> solve the problem. But could someone tell me how much it
> would/could cost to create something that would?

I'd estimate about 5-10k USD for a good solid working prototype.

- Serge

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Moderating / Quality checking OSM contributions -- was: Re: OSmosa.net run now.., contribution model

[Serge Wroclawski]

On Tue, Dec 6, 2011 at 11:18 AM, Jaakko Helleranta.com
 wrote:

> I know, and that's why I shouldn't have even put it in the Subject. So, I'm
> talking about flagging changesets (that are already committed into the live
> db) for review.

We've talked about changeset comments (and possibly flags, and votes).
This, I think, would be very useful.

I started working on this (but then abandoned it) and I think Frederik
was looking at working on it.

This wouldn't be a huge amount of work and I think would be fairly popular.

- Serge

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Moderating / Quality checking OSM contributions -- was: Re: OSmosa.net run now.., contribution model

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

On Tue, 6 Dec 2011 14:37:32 +
"Jaakko Helleranta.com"  wrote:
> That is: as the contributors' tech-savvyness decreases we see a clear
> hike in various sorts of data problems.

...

> Not having _something_ like this is a major problem.

There is an obvious alternative solution - if OpenStreetMap is too
complex for non-tech-savvy users, then don't bring them.

There are people who actively recruit non-tech-savvy people to
OpenStreetMap; maybe instead of requesting a change in OpenStreetMap
which you might not be able to help with, maybe you should petition
those people to stop what they're doing, or train users better!

If OSM is taught in the classroom and this results in lots of errors,
then either OSM was not the right subject to teach, or was not taught
well ;)

Bye
Frederik

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Moderating / Quality checking OSM contributions -- was: Re: OSmosa.net run now.., contribution model

[Martijn van Exel]

On Tue, Dec 6, 2011 at 9:45 AM, Frederik Ramm  wrote:
> Hi,
>
> On Tue, 6 Dec 2011 14:37:32 +
> "Jaakko Helleranta.com"  wrote:
>> That is: as the contributors' tech-savvyness decreases we see a clear
>> hike in various sorts of data problems.
>
> ...
>
>> Not having _something_ like this is a major problem.
>
> There is an obvious alternative solution - if OpenStreetMap is too
> complex for non-tech-savvy users, then don't bring them.
>
[...]

That is obviously not an alternative. Whether we're actively
recruiting less tech-savvy users or not, and educating them
sufficiently well or not, people of very different backgrounds will
continue to be attracted to the project, and we should embrace that
diversity and not engage in a policy of passive or active exclusion.
We will need more solutions to deal with assessing quality of
contributions, and I think the changeset assessment tools Serge was
referring to are a very good and feasible step in that direction.

-- 
martijn van exel
geospatial omnivore
1109 1st ave #2
salt lake city, ut 84103
801-550-5815
http://oegeo.wordpress.com

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] OSmosa.net run now.., contribution model

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

On 12/06/2011 12:11 PM, 80n wrote:

We've been taking OSM content and applying it to a separate database
which also has direct contributions. This is the opposite direction to
what you are contemplating, but the same principles apply.


Well, only if one leaves out a lot of important detail! If one were to 
operate a separate "leaf" server and feed the collected edits back into 
OSM in the way you describe, one would at least encounter three problems:


1. The person resolving the conflicts is not the person who has made 
(any of) the conflicting edits. Who will do the work and will they have 
the necessary information to do the right thing?


2. All uploads to OSM would appear under one user ID. Therefore OSMers 
could not identify contributors shielded behind the leaf server which is 
undesirable (e.g. one could not send them messages, or block them 
individually if they are found to violate copyright or so). This could 
be solved by making the leaf server use OAuth against OSM's server but 
that would require some work and make your approach "import to OSM using 
your favourite load tool" a bit more difficiult.


3. Extra work would be required to modify the local database with the 
IDs assigned by the OSM server during the upload process, or else you 
have each new object twice - one locally created and one arrived via a 
diff load from OSM later.



In practice, the risk of edit collisions is very small, and when they do
happen it is non-destructive and easy to resolve with no special skills.


In my OSM work, edit conflicts happen frequently. I guess the risk of 
edit conflicts increases with the amount of users.



You might find there is political resistance to this idea from some OSM
people, but nobody can stop you from doing it.


Nobody can stop you from running your own database in the way you, 80n, 
do; but if someone were to run this the other way round and upload 
collcted edits to OSM under one and the same user account then they can, 
and likely would, be stopped.


Bye
Frederik

--
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] OSmosa.net run now.., contribution model

[Frans Thamura]

hi all


talking about contribution model and distributed environment

i believe this is good for OSM, esp to make OSM load in center server
less, esp after GMAp become commercial.

people will use it and integrator will use it.. second one
(integrator) will bring more rush.

the use of API will increase.

of course for pre-contribute server will be amazing, because local
community/chapter can work with it, and submit to the main center
after approve and validate the content.

sound like new architecture in peer-to-peer world?

F

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

[OSM-legal-talk] Poland

[Simon Poole]

I had a short conversation with Marek Kleciak (Polish mapper living in 
Germany).


He pointed out that the people that we probably should be talking to, to 
get the Polish OSM pov are actually


http://openstreetmap.org.pl/osm/kontakt/

Stowarzyszenie OpenStreetMap Polska
ul. Profesora Bohdana Stefanowskiego 18/22
90-924 Łódź

e-mail:zar...@openstreetmap.pl



essentially the polish OSM association.


Simon




___
legal-talk mailing list
legal-t...@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk

Re: [OSM-talk] OSmosa.net run now.., contribution model

[Mike Dupont]

I have been thinking alot about this model.
Frederik has already mentioned some of the real problems you will have
with merging data.
There is alot of work to do on this topic, we can talk about details
if you wish. If you want to donate some server resources we can talk
about hosting some programs I am working on.
mike

On Tue, Dec 6, 2011 at 10:29 PM, Frans Thamura  wrote:
> hi all
>
>
> talking about contribution model and distributed environment
>
> i believe this is good for OSM, esp to make OSM load in center server
> less, esp after GMAp become commercial.
>
> people will use it and integrator will use it.. second one
> (integrator) will bring more rush.
>
> the use of API will increase.
>
> of course for pre-contribute server will be amazing, because local
> community/chapter can work with it, and submit to the main center
> after approve and validate the content.
>
> sound like new architecture in peer-to-peer world?
>
> F
>
> ___
> talk mailing list
> talk@openstreetmap.org
> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk



-- 
James Michael DuPont
Member of Free Libre Open Source Software Kosova http://flossk.org

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] OSmosa.net run now.., contribution model

[Frans Thamura]

my osmosa.net server is dedicated

8 core with 16GB data, 100MBPs bandwidth international, 1GB bandwidth
inside indonesia

my idea right now, want to make all indonesian, which we are inside
our private internet exchange called IIX.

and i am usually strong in education program, and interest to bring
OSM to direct education.

so, kids will play around with OSM, and if we allow JOSM direct update
to OSM.org, i believe disaster will come, for a kids that naughty..

i am new in OSM infrastructure, that why i am asking to this mailing list..

the tutorial and program, has just start , but how to create good
contributor that will be another problem :)

F


On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 at 4:35 AM, Mike  Dupont
 wrote:
> I have been thinking alot about this model.
> Frederik has already mentioned some of the real problems you will have
> with merging data.
> There is alot of work to do on this topic, we can talk about details
> if you wish. If you want to donate some server resources we can talk
> about hosting some programs I am working on.
> mike
>
> On Tue, Dec 6, 2011 at 10:29 PM, Frans Thamura  wrote:
>> hi all
>>
>>
>> talking about contribution model and distributed environment
>>
>> i believe this is good for OSM, esp to make OSM load in center server
>> less, esp after GMAp become commercial.
>>
>> people will use it and integrator will use it.. second one
>> (integrator) will bring more rush.
>>
>> the use of API will increase.
>>
>> of course for pre-contribute server will be amazing, because local
>> community/chapter can work with it, and submit to the main center
>> after approve and validate the content.
>>
>> sound like new architecture in peer-to-peer world?
>>
>> F
>>
>> ___
>> talk mailing list
>> talk@openstreetmap.org
>> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>
>
>
> --
> James Michael DuPont
> Member of Free Libre Open Source Software Kosova http://flossk.org

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] OSmosa.net run now.., contribution model

[Erik Johansson]

On Tue, Dec 6, 2011 at 22:44, Frans Thamura  wrote:
> my osmosa.net server is dedicated
>
> 8 core with 16GB data, 100MBPs bandwidth international, 1GB bandwidth
> inside indonesia
>
> my idea right now, want to make all indonesian, which we are inside
> our private internet exchange called IIX.
>
> and i am usually strong in education program, and interest to bring
> OSM to direct education.
>
> so, kids will play around with OSM, and if we allow JOSM direct update
> to OSM.org, i believe disaster will come, for a kids that naughty..


Are there any technical reasons for having a local upload server in
Indonesia, or is it "only" a social one?

Has "edit local and then mass upload" really been a good model in the
past, I think I've heard of it in Georgia(?), Kibera, Gaza etc? But
not sure.

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] OSmosa.net run now.., contribution model

[Frans Thamura]

>
> Are there any technical reasons for having a local upload server in
> Indonesia, or is it "only" a social one?

yup, we have Indonesia Internet Exchange and this server in the heart
of the IIX..

i believe 15 years ago, hongkong, singapore try to make bad thing to
this country, they sell 2-4x more expensive

so one of local ISP (indo.net) linking the ISP and create a local
Internet, and called IIX now.

and now.. all game server, local dotcom, implement on this IIX

and the ISP give it free to anyone here, so we have dedicated free, no
loop to global..

i believe got award, as the best backbone implementation in Asia
Pasific (several years ago).

last month, all our server move to the heart of the IIX, so all people
will access faster because only 1 hop from ISPs .



>
> Has "edit local and then mass upload" really been a good model in the
> past, I think I've heard of it in Georgia(?), Kibera, Gaza etc? But
> not sure.

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] OSmosa.net run now.., contribution model

[Frans Thamura]

our server

> server  UP
> OS Ubuntu 11.10
> HDD 1T x 2 (RAID 1)
> Memory 8GB (wait the 8GB, in order)
>

>
> mesin DELL POWEREDGE 2950 > lokasi rack 2051


--
Frans Thamura (曽志胜)
Shadow Master and Lead Investor
Meruvian.
Integrated Hypermedia Java Solution Provider.

Mobile: +628557888699
Blog: http://blogs.mervpolis.com/roller/flatburger (id)

FB: http://www.facebook.com/meruvian
TW: http://www.twitter.com/meruvian / @meruvian
Website: http://www.meruvian.org

"We grow because we share the same belief."



On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 at 5:02 AM, Frans Thamura  wrote:
>>
>> Are there any technical reasons for having a local upload server in
>> Indonesia, or is it "only" a social one?
>
> yup, we have Indonesia Internet Exchange and this server in the heart
> of the IIX..
>
> i believe 15 years ago, hongkong, singapore try to make bad thing to
> this country, they sell 2-4x more expensive
>
> so one of local ISP (indo.net) linking the ISP and create a local
> Internet, and called IIX now.
>
> and now.. all game server, local dotcom, implement on this IIX
>
> and the ISP give it free to anyone here, so we have dedicated free, no
> loop to global..
>
> i believe got award, as the best backbone implementation in Asia
> Pasific (several years ago).
>
> last month, all our server move to the heart of the IIX, so all people
> will access faster because only 1 hop from ISPs .
>
>
>
>>
>> Has "edit local and then mass upload" really been a good model in the
>> past, I think I've heard of it in Georgia(?), Kibera, Gaza etc? But
>> not sure.

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Poland

[Simon Poole]

Not that this is confidential, but this should have actually gone to the 
LWG.


Simon

Am 06.12.2011 22:34, schrieb Simon Poole:


I had a short conversation with Marek Kleciak (Polish mapper living in 
Germany).


He pointed out that the people that we probably should be talking to, 
to get the Polish OSM pov are actually


http://openstreetmap.org.pl/osm/kontakt/

Stowarzyszenie OpenStreetMap Polska
ul. Profesora Bohdana Stefanowskiego 18/22
90-924 Łódź

e-mail:zar...@openstreetmap.pl



essentially the polish OSM association.


Simon




___
legal-talk mailing list
legal-t...@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk



___
legal-talk mailing list
legal-t...@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk

Re: [OSM-talk] OSmosa.net run now.., contribution model

[Erik Johansson]

On Tue, Dec 6, 2011 at 23:02, Frans Thamura  wrote:
> last month, all our server move to the heart of the IIX, so all people
> will access faster because only 1 hop from ISPs .

I understand that it will be faster to reach the server, that makes it
perfect for local tile server and planet extracts mirror, but I don't
see any technical/economical reasons for a local copy of the API for
uploading changesets.. Uploads of changesets to an unloaded API server
might be faster, but edit conflicts are going to drive you insane, so
unless it's 10x faster and 10x cheaper to use a local upload server
then don't do it.

Is it really slow to upload changesets from Indonesia?

-- 
/emj

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] OSmosa.net run now.., contribution model

[Frans Thamura]

>
> I understand that it will be faster to reach the server, that makes it
> perfect for local tile server and planet extracts mirror, but I don't
> see any technical/economical reasons for a local copy of the API for
> uploading changesets.. Uploads of changesets to an unloaded API server
> might be faster, but edit conflicts are going to drive you insane, so
> unless it's 10x faster and 10x cheaper to use a local upload server
> then don't do it.

our server right now, just copy from OSM and generate tiles.. just it.

but we will try to implement API, because we want osmosa like gmap
api, any system can use  and i am integrator.. so we will use it, and
make our system faster

esp the upload (if u access from global to our server), also quiet big..

but.. the system that we will create, will have option, using OSM for
global people, or Osmosa for Indonesian people.

i believe the API can give economic benefit, esp GMAP is not free anymore.

sad thing, OSM API is not WFS..


NB, in middle of that with mike :) thx for the update

i will ad walking paper and mapwarpper ;) wanna to make best implementation



>
> Is it really slow to upload changesets from Indonesia?
>
> --
> /emj

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Moderating / Quality checking OSM contributions -- was: Re: OSmosa.net run now.., contribution model

[mick]

On Tue, 6 Dec 2011 17:45:37 +0100
Frederik Ramm  wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> On Tue, 6 Dec 2011 14:37:32 +
> "Jaakko Helleranta.com"  wrote:
> > That is: as the contributors' tech-savvyness decreases we see a clear
> > hike in various sorts of data problems.
> 
> ...
> 
> > Not having _something_ like this is a major problem.
> 
> There is an obvious alternative solution - if OpenStreetMap is too
> complex for non-tech-savvy users, then don't bring them.

_I_ believe that approach will result in a withering and increasingly 
_exclusive_ project.
> 
> There are people who actively recruit non-tech-savvy people to
> OpenStreetMap; maybe instead of requesting a change in OpenStreetMap
> which you might not be able to help with, maybe you should petition
> those people to stop what they're doing, or train users better!

If you recruit non-tech-savvy people you SHOULD be guiding them towards quality 
work, within the scope of the project. 

At the same time OSM should to grow to simplify accurate data entry, 
particularly in regard to CLEAR CONCISE tagging.

The raw recuits of today include people who, once they learn, will help carry 
the project forward in the future

> 
> If OSM is taught in the classroom and this results in lots of errors,
> then either OSM was not the right subject to teach, or was not taught
> well ;)

Letting utter novices loose on live data strikes me as crazy, they will make 
dumb mistakes that even a GOOD instructor could easily miss, what would it take 
to provide a 'dummy' server that could be readily be downloaded and installed 
at the training site, perhaps along the lines of a 'LiveCD'.

mick



___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

[OSM-talk] Fwd: Moderating / Quality checking OSM contributions -- was: Re: OSmosa.net run now.., contribution model

[Martijn van Exel]

Forgot to share with list as well.

-- Forwarded message --
From: Martijn van Exel 
Date: Tue, Dec 6, 2011 at 10:11 PM
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Moderating / Quality checking OSM
contributions -- was: Re: OSmosa.net run now.., contribution model
To: mick 


On Tue, Dec 6, 2011 at 9:23 PM, mick  wrote:
[..]
>> If OSM is taught in the classroom and this results in lots of errors,
>> then either OSM was not the right subject to teach, or was not taught
>> well ;)
>
> Letting utter novices loose on live data strikes me as crazy, they will make 
> dumb mistakes that even a GOOD instructor could easily miss, what would it 
> take to provide a 'dummy' server that could be readily be downloaded and 
> installed at the training site, perhaps along the lines of a 'LiveCD'.

That's an interesting thought, but part of the excitement of
contributing to OSM is the instant gratification of seeing your own
improvements on the map and being able to share your knowledge with
the world right away. Having new contributors make their first
contributions in a sandbox environment takes away a lot of that
excitement. Moreover, I think it's important for novices to feel the
responsibility and power of
editing a live database, something they will only be able to
appreciate if they actually do it.

Sure, they will make mistakes at first. Everyone does. It's no big
deal, as long as people are willing to improve and learn. I for one am
glad that not many of my early 2007 edits are still around.
--
martijn van exel
geospatial omnivore
1109 1st ave #2
salt lake city, ut 84103
801-550-5815
http://oegeo.wordpress.com

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Fwd: Moderating / Quality checking OSM contributions -- was: Re: OSmosa.net run now.., contribution model

[Andrew Errington]

How about every changeset triggers a message to the last n people to edit
any of the nodes or ways in the changeset, together with the comment for
that changeset?

Every mapper will get a message like this:

Some of your contributions have been edited in changeset XX.  The
comment was "X..."

A mapper can choose to subscribe or unsubscribe to this feature, or maybe
specify that they are only interested in messages arising from work they
contributed in a certain area.

Then, a mapper can go and check that the changes are good, or have
ruined/damaged some good work.

I myself have had some work ruined, but I only noticed a long time later. 
At first I thought I had misremembered editing in a certain area, but it
turns out that my work had been deleted (history lost) and replaced with
an almost identical version (version number starts at 1 again).  I am
satisfied it was not malicious, and in fact the mapper involved was quite
sorry.  He had made a mistake and couldn't fix it, but tried to put things
back as they were as best he could.  If I had known about it sooner I
could have helped.

I suppose it's a bit like OWL, but tailored to an individual's edits, not
to any edit.

Yes, it would lead to lots of messages, but I personally would have no
trouble filtering them.

Best wishes,

Andrew


___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Fwd: Moderating / Quality checking OSM contributions -- was: Re: OSmosa.net run now.., contribution model

[Mike Dupont]

On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 at 6:11 AM, Martijn van Exel  wrote:
> Forgot to share with list as well.
>
> -- Forwarded message --
> From: Martijn van Exel 
> Date: Tue, Dec 6, 2011 at 10:11 PM
> Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Moderating / Quality checking OSM
> contributions -- was: Re: OSmosa.net run now.., contribution model
> To: mick 
>
>
> On Tue, Dec 6, 2011 at 9:23 PM, mick  wrote:
> [..]
>>> If OSM is taught in the classroom and this results in lots of errors,
>>> then either OSM was not the right subject to teach, or was not taught
>>> well ;)
>>
>> Letting utter novices loose on live data strikes me as crazy, they will make 
>> dumb mistakes that even a GOOD instructor could easily miss, what would it 
>> take to provide a 'dummy' server that could be readily be downloaded and 
>> installed at the training site, perhaps along the lines of a 'LiveCD'.
>
> That's an interesting thought, but part of the excitement of
> contributing to OSM is the instant gratification of seeing your own
> improvements on the map and being able to share your knowledge with
> the world right away. Having new contributors make their first
> contributions in a sandbox environment takes away a lot of that
> excitement. Moreover, I think it's important for novices to feel the
> responsibility and power of
> editing a live database, something they will only be able to
> appreciate if they actually do it.
>
> Sure, they will make mistakes at first. Everyone does. It's no big
> deal, as long as people are willing to improve and learn. I for one am
> glad that not many of my early 2007 edits are still around.


I have suggested to franz that he setup his own api server for a small
section of town, to invite noobs from the town to work on that, I
would help him review and merge the data when it is done. they should
just work on making a perfect map of a small section of jakarta, and
when that is finished, then we can look into merging that into osm.
I think it would be ok and the work would be doable. Even if he
published an OSM file at the end with a section of town and asked it
to be reviewed and imported. as long as he has a copyright assignment
paper from the contributors that would work. it would be better than
letting all these noobs loose on the live server to make a mess.

mike

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Moderating / Quality checking OSM contributions -- was: Re: OSmosa.net run now.., contribution model

[mick]

On Tue, 6 Dec 2011 22:11:03 -0700
Martijn van Exel  wrote:

> On Tue, Dec 6, 2011 at 9:23 PM, mick  wrote:
> [..]
> >> If OSM is taught in the classroom and this results in lots of errors,
> >> then either OSM was not the right subject to teach, or was not taught
> >> well ;)
> >
> > Letting utter novices loose on live data strikes me as crazy, they will 
> > make dumb mistakes that even a GOOD instructor could easily miss, what 
> > would it take to provide a 'dummy' server that could be readily be 
> > downloaded and installed at the training site, perhaps along the lines of a 
> > 'LiveCD'.
> 
> That's an interesting thought, but part of the excitement of
> contributing to OSM is the instant gratification of seeing your own
> improvements on the map and being able to share your knowledge with
> the world right away. Having new contributors make their first
> contributions in a sandbox environment takes away a lot of that
> excitement. Moreover, I think it's important for novices to feel the
> responsibility and power of
> editing a live database, something they will only be able to
> appreciate if they actually do it.

The logic?? behind my suggestion for a sandbox is that, especially in the 
earliest stages is that the stupid mistakes can be made and a form of instant 
gratification is presented by the dummy server/site which is running a 
sacrificial subset of OSM.

This also allows demonstration of some of the uglier mistakes novices make. 
Based on my experience school boys are sure to do things an sane adult will see 
as dangerous and/or destructive.

Once they meet a basic standard they would move on to the live data.

I have been 'playing' with computer mapping, on and off, since about 1996 and 
still mess up my data to the point that deleting the lot and starting again is 
the easiest option, especially since I started trying to make sense of the 
sometimes anarchic tagging I have encountered in OSM and OS Open Data's 
separation of labels from the objects they apply to.
> 
> Sure, they will make mistakes at first. Everyone does. It's no big
> deal, as long as people are willing to improve and learn. I for one am
> glad that not many of my early 2007 edits are still around.

I have to admit that my idea of a dummy or testing/learning server would help 
me with my own project - mapping of historic objects that may only remain as 
stains and other archaeology under the ground, such as Roman Roads, Marching 
Camps etc.

mick

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] OSmosa.net run now.., contribution model

[Kate Chapman]

Hi Erik, HOT has been teaching OSM all over Indonesia for the past 6
months.  I can say that the uploads aren't that slow, since people are
usually mapping in a small area.  Loading of the OSM website though is
often very slow, which in a class of new people sometimes makes it
difficult just to get them accounts.

Frans, there have been other projects working with highschool students
to map in OSM.  The problems and mistakes made can be cleaned up by
the community and there are tools that the teacher could use to
monitor who is doing what.  Since there is a user account associated
with each student you could even associate their edits with a grade if
you wanted to.

Best,

-Kate

On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 at 6:17 AM, Erik Johansson  wrote:
> On Tue, Dec 6, 2011 at 23:02, Frans Thamura  wrote:
>> last month, all our server move to the heart of the IIX, so all people
>> will access faster because only 1 hop from ISPs .
>
> I understand that it will be faster to reach the server, that makes it
> perfect for local tile server and planet extracts mirror, but I don't
> see any technical/economical reasons for a local copy of the API for
> uploading changesets.. Uploads of changesets to an unloaded API server
> might be faster, but edit conflicts are going to drive you insane, so
> unless it's 10x faster and 10x cheaper to use a local upload server
> then don't do it.
>
> Is it really slow to upload changesets from Indonesia?
>
> --
> /emj
>
> ___
> talk mailing list
> talk@openstreetmap.org
> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk