Re: [OSM-talk] Patch to render names from routes and custom highway shields on a per country basis
On Tue, Dec 22, 2009 at 4:18 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: > 2009/12/22 Charlie Ferrero > > Ditto showing custom station symbols (e.g. the London Underground >> symbol, or a non-copyright version of same). It's much harder to spot a >> tube stop on the OSM london map than it is on the Google map for this >> reason. >> > > this goes even further: colours for highways, busstops, ... > > But how do we want to tag those? Shall there be a tag specifying the logo > on every feature? Should it be done by translating the operator-tag? Would > it be possible to maintain a parallel database with these informations and > corelate it by polygons / locations / ids? > network tag in highway relations for highway shields, operator tags for banks, petrol stations, bus stops, etc. I think all the necessary information already is available with network and operator. The next step will be to make a table of networks and operators and their respective shields and icons. When that is in place, make the actual rendering rules to Mapnik/Osmarender/Kosmos/ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Patch to render names from routes and custom highway shields on a per country basis
2009/12/27 Lennard : > Does it need solving? It's been said that the current uniform worldwide > appearance has its advantages as well. Like most other issues, some say yes and some say no, there is no consensus on this or many other similar issues nor would I expect there ever to be, that doesn't mean those that would like to see a problem solved should be actively discouraged just because some have a subjective preference on a topic. If there is a technical issue that is entirely a different matter and this thread is for the purpose of discussing the technical points on solving it which you just snipped. > I suggest you set up your own render farm, and start experimenting and > working out all the kinks and bugs, and keep it performant at the same > time. Only when you've achieved that, can we think about migrating this > to the main mapnik map. Or not, depending on then current views about > this subject. I never made any mention of implementing something untested on the main OSM servers, and I already do have mapnik etc setup and working at present, however this thread is for discussing how to do it, not if or when it should be done on OSM equipement. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Patch to render names from routes and custom highway shields on a per country basis
John Smith wrote: > Ok, another go at solving this, I've been talking to h4ck3rm1k3 about > this problem some what and we think we might have a workable solution. Does it need solving? It's been said that the current uniform worldwide appearance has its advantages as well. [skip technical ideas] > Then all we need is some logic to apply the shield "name" from the > lookup table to the database after any changesets have been applied to > the database and bobs your uncle we should now have a scalable > solution. I hope :) I suggest you set up your own render farm, and start experimenting and working out all the kinks and bugs, and keep it performant at the same time. Only when you've achieved that, can we think about migrating this to the main mapnik map. Or not, depending on then current views about this subject. -- Lennard ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Patch to render names from routes and custom highway shields on a per country basis
Ok, another go at solving this, I've been talking to h4ck3rm1k3 about this problem some what and we think we might have a workable solution. Firstly we need to build a suitable lookup table, currently far from complete it will need to have some default method for things like county highway shields in the US regardless if the state and county specifically hasn't been added to the lookup table. I've used LGA instead of county for the lookup table, LGA = Local Government Area, which is counties or shires or councils or , what ever comes below states, I couldn't think of a better term to use than state, I realise these are called provinces etc. The other problem is ways crossing LGA, state or country borders, I'm not sure how mapnik etc handles this, but the ways may need to be split to prevent shields from leaking across those borders. I have a basic lookup table on the wiki, I think it should be possible for pre-processing software to download this information and use it to apply shields. The ways table in the mapnik DB will need an extra custom column, eg shield and from there it's just a matter of finding out what country polygon encloses the way and working out if the network=* needs more precise information like state and LGA polygon the way is contained in. The initial country lookup is to prevent reuse of network=* tags of the same name for different things in different countries. Then all we need is some logic to apply the shield "name" from the lookup table to the database after any changesets have been applied to the database and bobs your uncle we should now have a scalable solution. I hope :) ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Patch to render names from routes and custom highway shields on a per country basis
2009/12/23 Martin Koppenhoefer : > yes (btw: "similar" is probably not what would be permitted, I guess it must > be "identical" to get permission), but I'm pretty sure as soon as we > implement them, we'll get thousands of those (fuel stations, fast-food, > supermarkets, drugstores) and will have to discuss about brands / neutrality > / advertising. If we agree that it is desirable to display logos on our maps > then we should collect and store the permissions for the use of those (will > all generally be protected as trademarks) e.g. in the wiki. At this stage that's a pipe dream, we can't even render custom highway shields, once we have that licked we can think about other things like this. > While I'm not sure if I support the implementation of all kind of custom > logos (e.g. Mc Donald's), I do support it for public transport. Have a look > here: > http://mic-ro.com/metro/metrologos-static.html > the london underground is just the top of the iceberg ;-) Maybe someone needs to start a wish list on the wiki of custom signs they'd like to see rendered, it seems this could be extensive. Maybe we just need to do a lookup in post-processing and attach the shield icon at that point to the database, although I'm not sure how the best way to do this would be since you might need polygons already in the database before you can assign highway shields for a country etc. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Patch to render names from routes and custom highway shields on a per country basis
2009/12/22 John Smith > > As for operator logos, we recently imported a bunch of BP amenity=fuel > locations and I was only pondering how it would be nice to make them > render an icon similar to their logo. > yes (btw: "similar" is probably not what would be permitted, I guess it must be "identical" to get permission), but I'm pretty sure as soon as we implement them, we'll get thousands of those (fuel stations, fast-food, supermarkets, drugstores) and will have to discuss about brands / neutrality / advertising. If we agree that it is desirable to display logos on our maps then we should collect and store the permissions for the use of those (will all generally be protected as trademarks) e.g. in the wiki. While I'm not sure if I support the implementation of all kind of custom logos (e.g. Mc Donald's), I do support it for public transport. Have a look here: http://mic-ro.com/metro/metrologos-static.html the london underground is just the top of the iceberg ;-) cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Patch to render names from routes and custom highway shields on a per country basis
2009/12/23 Martin Koppenhoefer : > 2009/12/22 Charlie Ferrero >> >> Ditto showing custom station symbols (e.g. the London Underground >> symbol, or a non-copyright version of same). It's much harder to spot a >> tube stop on the OSM london map than it is on the Google map for this >> reason. > > this goes even further: colours for highways, busstops, ... > > But how do we want to tag those? Shall there be a tag specifying the logo on > every feature? Should it be done by translating the operator-tag? Would it > be possible to maintain a parallel database with these informations and > corelate it by polygons / locations / ids? Previously someone suggested that some of the work to calculate information should be dealt with in pre-processing, which is probably a sensible idea to reduce the time to render tiles that aren't already cached, so a lookup table might not be such a bad idea. As for operator logos, we recently imported a bunch of BP amenity=fuel locations and I was only pondering how it would be nice to make them render an icon similar to their logo. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Patch to render names from routes and custom highway shields on a per country basis
2009/12/22 Charlie Ferrero > Ditto showing custom station symbols (e.g. the London Underground > symbol, or a non-copyright version of same). It's much harder to spot a > tube stop on the OSM london map than it is on the Google map for this > reason. > this goes even further: colours for highways, busstops, ... But how do we want to tag those? Shall there be a tag specifying the logo on every feature? Should it be done by translating the operator-tag? Would it be possible to maintain a parallel database with these informations and corelate it by polygons / locations / ids? Cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Patch to render names from routes and custom highway shields on a per country basis
John Smith wrote: > 2009/9/21 Richard Weait : >> >> [highway] = 'motorway' and [length] = 8 >> 100 >> 100 >> > size="10" fill="#fff" placement="line" file= >> "%SYMBOLS_DIR%/mot_shield7.png" type="png" width="59" height="17" >> min_distance="30" spacing="750"/> >> > > This thread died some time ago, has any progress been made with mapnik > or anything else that would easily allow at least custom shields for > the main routes of a country? > > There is a lot of people that would love to see something more > familiar and less bland show up on map tiles. The majority of > non-OSMers expect maps to look a certain way and even Google is > rendering custom highway shields differently for different countries. > > If we want to win the hearts and minds of non-mappers we need to fill > certain expectations of what a regular map should look like. > Ditto showing custom station symbols (e.g. the London Underground symbol, or a non-copyright version of same). It's much harder to spot a tube stop on the OSM london map than it is on the Google map for this reason. Charlie ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Patch to render names from routes and custom highway shields on a per country basis
2009/9/21 Richard Weait : > > [highway] = 'motorway' and [length] = 8 > 100 > 100 > size="10" fill="#fff" placement="line" file= > "%SYMBOLS_DIR%/mot_shield7.png" type="png" width="59" height="17" > min_distance="30" spacing="750"/> > This thread died some time ago, has any progress been made with mapnik or anything else that would easily allow at least custom shields for the main routes of a country? There is a lot of people that would love to see something more familiar and less bland show up on map tiles. The majority of non-OSMers expect maps to look a certain way and even Google is rendering custom highway shields differently for different countries. If we want to win the hearts and minds of non-mappers we need to fill certain expectations of what a regular map should look like. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Patch to render names from routes and custom highway shields on a per country basis
2009/9/22 Alex Mauer : > On 09/21/2009 10:31 AM, John Smith wrote: >> If we want to encourage others to be involved those others expect maps >> to look a certain way, and if we can do it why shouldn't we to >> encourage more people to participate, a world wide bland map is a turn >> off. > > On the contrary, I think a unified look to the whole world is wonderful. > > It would be nice to have appropriate shields rendered though. I was talking about shields, I have no problem with the road colouring, although it would be nice to have unpaved roads dotted somehow, there is a lot of them here and it's useful in figuring out which roads to avoid. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Patch to render names from routes and custom highway shields on a per country basis
Matt Williams wrote: > If an American wants to create an American-style map with the > whole world coloured their way, then that's fine. Obviously, you aren't American. There is no central authority here that decides how maps are drawn. Every map publisher has their own way of doing it. American maps have only one thing in common: they include a legend. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Patch to render names from routes and custom highway shields on a per country basis
2009/9/22 Richard Weait : > Now everything I know about Australian highways I learned from Mel > Gibson in _The Road Warrior_ so I have much to learn. What is the > shield landscape like in Australia? > Queensland is in the (slow) process of changing to alphanumeric designations, starting with the main highways. It also has a lot of local (state) routes. The main problem with them, is that many of the numbers are used twice. They only use two digit numbers, and they have more than a hundred local routes, as the state is enormous - bigger then Alaska, or about 3/4 of the area of Western Europe. Pretty much every secondary (or better) road in the SE Metropolitan area is a State route, and a lot of these numbers are reused on rural roads in other parts of the state. It's generally not too much of a problem, but something to be aware of. These numbers would be B roads in the new alphanumeric system (I think), but I've never seen a Bnn sign in Qld, the signs are just a blue shield with the number. They've pretty much changed all the A and M roads to the new designations, but I'm not sure if they're going to keep working down the list to the lower roads or not. Stephen ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Patch to render names from routes and custom highway shields on a per country basis
On Tue, 22 Sep 2009, Richard Weait wrote: > Now everything I know about Australian highways I learned from Mel > Gibson in _The Road Warrior_ so I have much to learn. What is the > shield landscape like in Australia? http://www.ozroads.com.au/NationalSystem/natsystem.htm but we have a partly changed system in one State http://www.ozroads.com.au/NSW/Special/MAB/evidence.htm -- BOFH excuse #395: Redundant ACLs. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Patch to render names from routes and custom highway shields on a per country basis
> I don't recall seeing I and US on signs in the US, although it might > have been the case where I've been. > > Verified on the way to work today. Even this is not consistent. Some shields have some don't. At least in california. the large overhead signs have only the number but the signs along the highway have it. maybe these are older designs which haven't been replaced. But it doesn't really matter for a map rendering. Even google maps uses the same shield across US. State HW shields are completely different than on the signs. they don't render county HW shields at all. Yahoo renders the county ref numbers but no special shields. Garmin maps are same as google maps. If someone can come up with a workable solution it's fine. I won't spend much time on it it's not really worth all the effort to make it work on a global scale. Doing it for country maps is a different story and can be done on local servers. > > > ___ > talk mailing list > talk@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk > ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Patch to render names from routes and custom highway shields on a per country basis
On 09/21/2009 10:31 AM, John Smith wrote: > If we want to encourage others to be involved those others expect maps > to look a certain way, and if we can do it why shouldn't we to > encourage more people to participate, a world wide bland map is a turn > off. On the contrary, I think a unified look to the whole world is wonderful. It would be nice to have appropriate shields rendered though. -Alex Mauer “hawke” signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Patch to render names from routes and custom highway shields on a per country basis
Andy Allan writes: > I'll leave for cartographers to decide; personally I think it looks > naff but that doesn't stop other people from doing so. Sorry, I don't speak English. Is "naff" good or bad? I hope good. Anyway, US maps are often rendered with the shape of the sign, and I'd like to see them on OSM. -- --my blog is athttp://blog.russnelson.com Crynwr supports open source software 521 Pleasant Valley Rd. | +1 315-323-1241 Potsdam, NY 13676-3213 | Sheepdog ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Patch to render names from routes and custom highway shields on a per country basis
2009/9/22 Matt Williams : > Indeed. I remember this discussion coming up a year or two ago when > talking about the colouring of roads in the default Mapnik renderer. > Some people wanted each country's roads to be rendered in the style > (colouring etc.) that the locals in that country typically display it > (cueing discussions about how to transition at country boundaries). > However, it was argued (and mostly agreed upon) that we don't want > that. If an American wants to create an American-style map with the > whole world coloured their way, then that's fine. Likewise for a > German or British coloured map. Each map rendering should be uniform > across the world and we should avoid having geographically localised > differentiated rendering schemes within one map. This is of course > just general advice and means nothing about what you do with your own > home-grown renderings. The default Mapnik map, however should remain > homogeneous. If we want to encourage others to be involved those others expect maps to look a certain way, and if we can do it why shouldn't we to encourage more people to participate, a world wide bland map is a turn off. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Patch to render names from routes and custom highway shields on a per country basis
2009/9/21 Andy Allan : > On Mon, Sep 21, 2009 at 3:33 PM, Richard Weait wrote: >> I've been operating under the presumption that incremental >> improvements of shield branding across North America would be a good >> thing. So if initially all county roads show a default county shield >> until the custom, local county shield is included, I think that is an >> improvement over the generic UK shield. > > I don't know where you get the idea that a) there is a "UK shield" or > b) that the mapnik layer is using one. Road references are being shown > with a rectangle with heavily rounded corners, which AFAIK is not the > shape of a "shield" in any country, especially not the UK. > > Now as for the discussion over whether it's preferable to show road > numbers superimposed on specific funny shapes on the map, that's one > I'll leave for cartographers to decide; personally I think it looks > naff but that doesn't stop other people from doing so. Indeed. I remember this discussion coming up a year or two ago when talking about the colouring of roads in the default Mapnik renderer. Some people wanted each country's roads to be rendered in the style (colouring etc.) that the locals in that country typically display it (cueing discussions about how to transition at country boundaries). However, it was argued (and mostly agreed upon) that we don't want that. If an American wants to create an American-style map with the whole world coloured their way, then that's fine. Likewise for a German or British coloured map. Each map rendering should be uniform across the world and we should avoid having geographically localised differentiated rendering schemes within one map. This is of course just general advice and means nothing about what you do with your own home-grown renderings. The default Mapnik map, however should remain homogeneous. I realise that differently styles road shields are different to rainbow roads but it's worth keeping in mind. -- Matt Williams http://milliams.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Patch to render names from routes and custom highway shields on a per country basis
On Mon, Sep 21, 2009 at 3:33 PM, Richard Weait wrote: > I've been operating under the presumption that incremental > improvements of shield branding across North America would be a good > thing. So if initially all county roads show a default county shield > until the custom, local county shield is included, I think that is an > improvement over the generic UK shield. I don't know where you get the idea that a) there is a "UK shield" or b) that the mapnik layer is using one. Road references are being shown with a rectangle with heavily rounded corners, which AFAIK is not the shape of a "shield" in any country, especially not the UK. Now as for the discussion over whether it's preferable to show road numbers superimposed on specific funny shapes on the map, that's one I'll leave for cartographers to decide; personally I think it looks naff but that doesn't stop other people from doing so. Cheers, Andy ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Patch to render names from routes and custom highway shields on a per country basis
2009/9/22 Richard Weait : > US Routes. (the "US" is invisible on modern signs, but often spoken > as "Take US-23 south to Marion Ohio" or "Take Hugh-Ass > Twanny-thray sah-owth tah Marion Ohio.") > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Route_shield Only half of Ohio is hicks and from what I'm told they migrated from Kentucky :) *ducks* > I've been operating under the presumption that incremental > improvements of shield branding across North America would be a good > thing. So if initially all county roads show a default county shield > until the custom, local county shield is included, I think that is an > improvement over the generic UK shield. Thus a tag that supports the > beauty of increasingly specific categories leading ultimately to the > right shield. > Now everything I know about Australian highways I learned from Mel > Gibson in _The Road Warrior_ so I have much to learn. What is the > shield landscape like in Australia? There is essentially 2 systems, depending on which state you are in and how far they've progressed towards an alphanumeric MABC system. The major of the country has shields similar to the US, we have NH (National Highway) shields that just have a number on them for routes funded by both state and federal governments, we also have NR (National Routes) state funded, but cross state borders, we also have S (state highways) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highways_in_Australia > Relying on polygons for countries / states / counties may encourage > both proper ref tagging, and including the right shield graphic. > Having the correct polygon is a benefit however we get folks to > provide them. I'm pretty sure this info, at least to some extent, can be extracted or extrapolated from TIGER data. In any case as long as the ref/network is tagged sanely it can be a graceful change over, rather than requiring a bunch of images all at once. > Some highways have historic or other cultural weight that earns > special signs that may resist selection by polygon. How do polygons > help with the special cases like Route 66 and Santa Fe Trail? > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santa_Fe_Trail > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Route_66 Probably similar to our T routes (tourist) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Australian_Tourist_Route_2.svg > Are there special case shields in Australia that you are able to > address with boundary polygons and postgres? We should be able to address all shields in Australia using polygons and meta information, shields only vary here based on state. Local governments here don't bother shielding routes they fund. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Patch to render names from routes and custom highway shields on a per country basis
On Mon, Sep 21, 2009 at 5:54 AM, John Smith wrote: > 2009/9/21 Liz : >> On Mon, 21 Sep 2009, Apollinaris Schoell wrote: >>> US is meant for US highway http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/US_Highways >>> They uses signs with US printed on it. So the symbol needs the same >>> which is different from US interstates where only a capital I is >>> printed on the shield >> Ok, that would make sense, better than here where we have apparently random >> letter combinations on shields which don't occur on the signs at all >> eg NR NH S >> with a numeral which does appear on the highway marker > > I don't recall seeing I and US on signs in the US, although it might > have been the case where I've been. Oh, signs are cool. US Routes. (the "US" is invisible on modern signs, but often spoken as "Take US-23 south to Marion Ohio" or "Take Hugh-Ass Twanny-thray sah-owth tah Marion Ohio.") http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Route_shield Here is a large collection of Interstate, US Route and some other shields. This hints at the diversity of shields. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_auxiliary_Interstate_Highways As an indication of scope, here is a list of State highways in New York, just one densely populated state of fifty. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_State_Routes_in_New_York Putnam county is one of sixty-two counties in New York state. Here is a list of their county roads. Putnam uses a common "default" county shield. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_county_roads_in_Putnam_County,_New_York Here you can see a few of the non-default county road shields used in some states. Similar defaults and special county road shields are used in Canada as well. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/County_highway I've been operating under the presumption that incremental improvements of shield branding across North America would be a good thing. So if initially all county roads show a default county shield until the custom, local county shield is included, I think that is an improvement over the generic UK shield. Thus a tag that supports the beauty of increasingly specific categories leading ultimately to the right shield. Now everything I know about Australian highways I learned from Mel Gibson in _The Road Warrior_ so I have much to learn. What is the shield landscape like in Australia? Relying on polygons for countries / states / counties may encourage both proper ref tagging, and including the right shield graphic. Having the correct polygon is a benefit however we get folks to provide them. Some highways have historic or other cultural weight that earns special signs that may resist selection by polygon. How do polygons help with the special cases like Route 66 and Santa Fe Trail? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santa_Fe_Trail http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Route_66 Are there special case shields in Australia that you are able to address with boundary polygons and postgres? Best regards, Richard ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Patch to render names from routes and custom highway shields on a per country basis
2009/9/21 Liz : > On Mon, 21 Sep 2009, Apollinaris Schoell wrote: >> US is meant for US highway http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/US_Highways >> They uses signs with US printed on it. So the symbol needs the same >> which is different from US interstates where only a capital I is >> printed on the shield > Ok, that would make sense, better than here where we have apparently random > letter combinations on shields which don't occur on the signs at all > eg NR NH S > with a numeral which does appear on the highway marker I don't recall seeing I and US on signs in the US, although it might have been the case where I've been. I-270 shield can be seen in this street view shot: http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=40.107159,-83.090973&spn=0,359.855804&z=14&layer=c&cbll=40.107047,-83.090972&panoid=ICjdA1-PhqqvaAIU0LrLdA&cbp=12,20.45,,0,-12.46 US route 33 and state route 161 can be seen here: http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=40.101448,-83.132343&spn=0,359.927902&z=15&layer=c&cbll=40.101653,-83.132123&panoid=fbvnitKC4m487VmCt3QlGQ&cbp=12,237.87,,0,3.5 None of them have lettered prefixes on signs, the lettering occurs when you refer to them etc. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Patch to render names from routes and custom highway shields on a per country basis
On Mon, 21 Sep 2009, Apollinaris Schoell wrote: > US is meant for US highway http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/US_Highways > They uses signs with US printed on it. So the symbol needs the same > which is different from US interstates where only a capital I is > printed on the shield Ok, that would make sense, better than here where we have apparently random letter combinations on shields which don't occur on the signs at all eg NR NH S with a numeral which does appear on the highway marker ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Patch to render names from routes and custom highway shields on a per country basis
2009/9/21 Russ Nelson : > John Smith writes: > > verifiable, if I go to ny county, ny, us I won't know the difference > > to the adjcent county etc, we're not supposed to embed symbol > > information for the renderer and this is exactly what you are > > suggesting we do. > > I agree. You wouldn't. However, everybody else would look at OSM and > see the New York State county route shield. "Oops, this other county > route lacks the shield. H what's the difference? A, I > see! This other one needs network=us_ny_ny_co." What you guys are suggesting is just as bad as tagging each way with the file name of the shield, you don't do it and you don't tag these ways with the state or country either what's so specical that these ways need not only the same information that other tags have been made redundent but a super duper special new tag to do the same thing. The country, state and county is rendundent information, it just needs the specific shield type, eg US, I, etc, the rest can be pulled from boundary polygons. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Patch to render names from routes and custom highway shields on a per country basis
John Smith writes: > verifiable, if I go to ny county, ny, us I won't know the difference > to the adjcent county etc, we're not supposed to embed symbol > information for the renderer and this is exactly what you are > suggesting we do. I agree. You wouldn't. However, everybody else would look at OSM and see the New York State county route shield. "Oops, this other county route lacks the shield. H what's the difference? A, I see! This other one needs network=us_ny_ny_co." -- --my blog is athttp://blog.russnelson.com Crynwr supports open source software 521 Pleasant Valley Rd. | +1 315-323-1241 Potsdam, NY 13676-3213 | Sheepdog ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Patch to render names from routes and custom highway shields on a per country basis
2009/9/21 Apollinaris Schoell : > US is meant for US highway http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/US_Highways > They uses signs with US printed on it. So the symbol needs the same > which is different from US interstates where only a capital I is printed on > the shield Sorry I thought you meant using US+I at the same time. > yes shields are very different between states and county shields are > different again. Even the US shields are not consistent in whole US. > If the info is derived from state/county polygons that would be awesome and > avoid tagging for the renderer. Well that's what this thread was started for, to try and work out how to achieve it preferably without bloating the mapnik stylesheet, we just need to alter the pre-processing to attach this information during import. > but osm sometimes follows the simple and easy path to get things done. So I > am not against a hacked solution as long as it doesn't break any established > use. Just because it makes things easier in mapnik is probably a good reason not to do it if it will make things more difficult for other software developers. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Patch to render names from routes and custom highway shields on a per country basis
On 20 Sep 2009, at 20:20 , John Smith wrote: > 2009/9/21 Apollinaris Schoell : > >> you shouldn't use well established tags in the wrong way. >> us_ny_ny_co is not >> a network name. the network is I, US, > > The US but is redundant, we just need to know what shield type, not > where it is located since there is a country polygon that already > points this out. > US is meant for US highway http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/US_Highways They uses signs with US printed on it. So the symbol needs the same which is different from US interstates where only a capital I is printed on the shield > If there is special shields needed on a per state or per county basis > they need to be dealt with in other ways, just like they should be on > a per country basis, you shouldn't have to add this information to > ways otherwise we might as well tag every single node, way, area etc > with is_in tags too, again is_in is redundant because we can derive > this information easily by other means. yes shields are very different between states and county shields are different again. Even the US shields are not consistent in whole US. If the info is derived from state/county polygons that would be awesome and avoid tagging for the renderer. > >> network is useful for routing applications too and should be used >> as signed >> in reality. >> If we need a tag for mapnik rendering call it mapnik: or >> shildsymbolizersomething > > If you need to tag for mapnik, mapnik is broken and needs to be fixed > you should never need to tag for it. 1+ but osm sometimes follows the simple and easy path to get things done. So I am not against a hacked solution as long as it doesn't break any established use. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Patch to render names from routes and custom highway shields on a per country basis
2009/9/21 Apollinaris Schoell : > you shouldn't use well established tags in the wrong way. us_ny_ny_co is not > a network name. the network is I, US, The US but is redundant, we just need to know what shield type, not where it is located since there is a country polygon that already points this out. If there is special shields needed on a per state or per county basis they need to be dealt with in other ways, just like they should be on a per country basis, you shouldn't have to add this information to ways otherwise we might as well tag every single node, way, area etc with is_in tags too, again is_in is redundant because we can derive this information easily by other means. > network is useful for routing applications too and should be used as signed > in reality. > If we need a tag for mapnik rendering call it mapnik: or > shildsymbolizersomething If you need to tag for mapnik, mapnik is broken and needs to be fixed you should never need to tag for it. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Patch to render names from routes and custom highway shields on a per country basis
On Sun, Sep 20, 2009 at 7:10 PM, Richard Weait wrote: > On Sun, Sep 20, 2009 at 9:38 PM, John Smith > wrote: > > 2009/9/21 Richard Weait : > [ ... ] > >> So I suggest we pattern on network=us_i for Interstates, us_us for US > >> Routes, us_ny_ny for New York State Routes, us_ny_ny_co for New York > >> county roads, etc. These tags should sort nicely alphabetically for > >> bug-squashing and allow collision avoidance with imperfect knowledge > >> of other international network naming systems. > > > > What you are doing specifically will end up causing inconsistent data > > because you don't see us_ny_ny_co on signs and people won't tag it. > > Dear John, > > You underestimate the intelligence of OSM contributors and their > motivation to make the map better. Particularly you underestimate > their wish for better highway shields. You think increasingly > specific network tags are too complicated for OSM contributors? Are > you familiar with the great success of the Karlsruhe addressing > Schema?[1] ;-) > > They will tag it. Absolutely they will tag it. When Mapnik support > for local shields is adopted on osm.org and announced on talk-US it > will take less than 7 days for the US Interstate system to have shiny > new shields from coast to coast. I'll send you a bottle of Canadian > Maple Syrup if I am wrong. > after more than a year after tiger import still most US highways are untouched. have no or wrong ref values. broken connections the list is endless nothing will happen in 7 days. > > In the case of US interstate it should just be network=I, state > > highways network=S > > "S" and "I" are so lacking context as to approach line-noise. > "us_ny_ny_co" even hints at the right answer, without reading the > docs. > > you shouldn't use well established tags in the wrong way. us_ny_ny_co is not a network name. the network is I, US, network is useful for routing applications too and should be used as signed in reality. If we need a tag for mapnik rendering call it mapnik: or shildsymbolizersomething > > That is enough information combined with a database or shape file with > > all the meta information about what shield exists in which location, > > Those are mandatory with your incomplete tags. They are optional with > explicit, human-readable tags. > > > and defaulting to UK style signs if a localised style hasn't been > > defined otherwise. > > I agree that failover to the UK style shield is better than nothing. > > Best regards, > Richard > > [1] > http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/House_numbers/Karlsruhe_Schema > > ___ > talk mailing list > talk@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk > ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Patch to render names from routes and custom highway shields on a per country basis
2009/9/21 Richard Weait : > "S" and "I" are so lacking context as to approach line-noise. > "us_ny_ny_co" even hints at the right answer, without reading the > docs. On second thoughts, drop the network tag and just tag a file name: shield_file_name=us_ny_ny_co__interstate_shield.png This way you are completely explicit in which shield should be rendered and it's human readable and all the other points you mentioned. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Patch to render names from routes and custom highway shields on a per country basis
2009/9/21 Richard Weait : > They will tag it. Absolutely they will tag it. When Mapnik support > for local shields is adopted on osm.org and announced on talk-US it > will take less than 7 days for the US Interstate system to have shiny > new shields from coast to coast. I'll send you a bottle of Canadian > Maple Syrup if I am wrong. Except they are tagging what they see with street address information, you don't see what you are suggesting any where, this is meta information and belongs as such. > "S" and "I" are so lacking context as to approach line-noise. > "us_ny_ny_co" even hints at the right answer, without reading the > docs. fine, tag it network=interstate_shield, network=state_shield, network=county_shield, but tagging network=us_ny_ny_co is tagging for the renderer, you won't ever ever find that on a sign, and it's not verifiable, if I go to ny county, ny, us I won't know the difference to the adjcent county etc, we're not supposed to embed symbol information for the renderer and this is exactly what you are suggesting we do. > I agree that failover to the UK style shield is better than nothing. It's what already exists, I fail to see why this should be an issue. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Patch to render names from routes and custom highway shields on a per country basis
On Sun, Sep 20, 2009 at 9:38 PM, John Smith wrote: > 2009/9/21 Richard Weait : [ ... ] >> So I suggest we pattern on network=us_i for Interstates, us_us for US >> Routes, us_ny_ny for New York State Routes, us_ny_ny_co for New York >> county roads, etc. These tags should sort nicely alphabetically for >> bug-squashing and allow collision avoidance with imperfect knowledge >> of other international network naming systems. > > What you are doing specifically will end up causing inconsistent data > because you don't see us_ny_ny_co on signs and people won't tag it. Dear John, You underestimate the intelligence of OSM contributors and their motivation to make the map better. Particularly you underestimate their wish for better highway shields. You think increasingly specific network tags are too complicated for OSM contributors? Are you familiar with the great success of the Karlsruhe addressing Schema?[1] ;-) They will tag it. Absolutely they will tag it. When Mapnik support for local shields is adopted on osm.org and announced on talk-US it will take less than 7 days for the US Interstate system to have shiny new shields from coast to coast. I'll send you a bottle of Canadian Maple Syrup if I am wrong. > In the case of US interstate it should just be network=I, state > highways network=S "S" and "I" are so lacking context as to approach line-noise. "us_ny_ny_co" even hints at the right answer, without reading the docs. > That is enough information combined with a database or shape file with > all the meta information about what shield exists in which location, Those are mandatory with your incomplete tags. They are optional with explicit, human-readable tags. > and defaulting to UK style signs if a localised style hasn't been > defined otherwise. I agree that failover to the UK style shield is better than nothing. Best regards, Richard [1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/House_numbers/Karlsruhe_Schema ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Patch to render names from routes and custom highway shields on a per country basis
2009/9/21 Richard Weait : > In earlier discussions with Paul (cc:'d) we talked about using the > network key to distinguish road networks that use shields[1]. We had > agreed on using a ":" separator like "US:I" but I'm arguing against > that now. First we are not separating equal items, we're adding > specificity to one selector. Second, we're planning to use the > network values in filenames, we should choose characters that won't > lead to problems in on OS or another when used as a file name. Third > OSM key:values have been lower case other than Proper (Street) Names. > So I suggest we pattern on network=us_i for Interstates, us_us for US > Routes, us_ny_ny for New York State Routes, us_ny_ny_co for New York > county roads, etc. These tags should sort nicely alphabetically for > bug-squashing and allow collision avoidance with imperfect knowledge > of other international network naming systems. What you are doing specifically will end up causing inconsistent data because you don't see us_ny_ny_co on signs and people won't tag it. In the case of US interstate it should just be network=I, state highways network=S That is enough information combined with a database or shape file with all the meta information about what shield exists in which location, and defaulting to UK style signs if a localised style hasn't been defined otherwise. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Patch to render names from routes and custom highway shields on a per country basis
On Tue, Sep 15, 2009 at 10:04 PM, John Smith wrote: > While my patch works, I don't know if this is the best solution to the > problem or not: > > http://trac.openstreetmap.org/attachment/ticket/1666/osm.xml-patch I have a similar local hack and decided not to pursue it. In North America this approach adds thousands of paragraphs to osm-template.xml, each paragraph more error prone than the previous. I'd rather see ShieldSymbolizer able to build an icon filename from key/value data. At a minimum this is an improvement in the default osm-template.xml as we currently have eight paragraphs for the default motorway shield: [highway] = 'motorway' and [length] = 8 100 100 Eight different paragraphs that vary by ref-length. Just for the default motorway shield. Note that this paragraph appears to have an error as [length] = 8 and file uses mot_shield7.png. I pulled this from svn some time ago so it may have been patched. Much better, would be to allow something like file= "%SYMBOLS_DIR%/mot_shield[length].png" and reduce the default motorway shield to a single paragraph. More to the point for this thread, this can be extended for localized shields as something like: [network] != '' 100 100 Superficially this is a complete solution. All shields selected and rendered in one paragraph. But there are things to be solved still. Selecting a shield is analogous to setting a background color, so font color will change from shield to shield. This needs to be solved. I've removed the height and width parameters as shield will vary in size. Does this cause problems later? This also generalizes away from the non-England problem. In England, highway tags correspond with posted signs. In USA and Canada they do not. State routes often make sense meet motorway, trunk, primary and sometimes secondary standards. The individual paragraph approach worked for England but it doesn't scale for the World. In earlier discussions with Paul (cc:'d) we talked about using the network key to distinguish road networks that use shields[1]. We had agreed on using a ":" separator like "US:I" but I'm arguing against that now. First we are not separating equal items, we're adding specificity to one selector. Second, we're planning to use the network values in filenames, we should choose characters that won't lead to problems in on OS or another when used as a file name. Third OSM key:values have been lower case other than Proper (Street) Names. So I suggest we pattern on network=us_i for Interstates, us_us for US Routes, us_ny_ny for New York State Routes, us_ny_ny_co for New York county roads, etc. These tags should sort nicely alphabetically for bug-squashing and allow collision avoidance with imperfect knowledge of other international network naming systems. I've submitted a ticket with Mapnik requesting an extension to ShieldSymbolizer to support this proposal. Project lead is currently on vacation, so let's not swamp him with more requests. ;-) https://trac.mapnik.org/ticket/352 Best regards, Richard [1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Interstate_Highways_Relations ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Patch to render names from routes and custom highway shields on a per country basis
On Sun, Sep 20, 2009 at 5:45 AM, John Smith wrote: > 2009/9/20 Martijn van Oosterhout : > >> I suppose it would be possible to get osm2pgsql to assign columns >> based on country locations, if the relevant polygons were available in >> another table. Handling diffs is not the problem, osm2pgsql knows >> exactly which things have changed and can do the relevent query to >> supplement the data. > > Any thoughts on osm2pgsql patches to do this? > > Would be be able to use a shape file for this instead of trying to use > information that may or may not already exist in the DB? On the whole I'm not a great fan of shapefile during processing, it means you have to converts shapes back and forth between various formats the whole time. What I was thinking is: 1. Provide a process to read a defined shapefile into the database or something like that (mind you shp2pgsql already exists ofcourse). Perhaps the data could be copied from the polygons table depending on the tag? The thing is you need more attributes, and shapefiles provide a nice way bundle the extra data (shield types, colours, whatever). 2. Once the data is there, osm2pgsql can use joins to match the shapes and given the shapes, copy the values with those shapes into extra columns on the main table. Alternatively, give each shape a number, store the number with the shapes and let mapnik do the join (saves tons of disk space, thus time and memory). As for patches, I don't have time right now, but maybe in the future (a month or three). Do you want the country to be determined for all objects, or just some, like roads? Have a nice day, -- Martijn van Oosterhout http://svana.org/kleptog/ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Patch to render names from routes and custom highway shields on a per country basis
2009/9/20 Lennard : > John Smith wrote: > >> They end up in the DB more or less identical, it just means 2 queries >> or a join etc instead of a simpler query. > > Now you're just thinking of a single renderer and its way of processing the > data. Did you take osmarender into account? How does it handle the road > relation at this point? I wasn't talking about tagging, however there is 2 issues here, tagging and how to get osm2pgsql to cope with this situation. I wasn't suggesting we're tagging for mapnik/osm2pgsql just how mapnik deals with it at present, which is part of the current problem on how to get mapnik to render highway shields on a per country or per state basis. > Don't forget it's not that often that a road would cross a boundary and > continue a long distance. Names change, refs change, maxspeed, surface, etc. > We're already breaking it up for any number of reasons, at a border. There is a lot of borders out there, and not just country borders, state and other administrative borders too so unless something changes like ref=* it shouldn't be broken up just because it crosses a border that's for rendering software to cope with. > But, a bit of preprocessing could also be involved, so that we don't do > 'tagging for the renderer', if that makes people feel better. :P It's not about "feeling better" it's about presenting data consistently for all software, then how each piece of software copes is up to the author. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Patch to render names from routes and custom highway shields on a per country basis
John Smith wrote: > They end up in the DB more or less identical, it just means 2 queries > or a join etc instead of a simpler query. Now you're just thinking of a single renderer and its way of processing the data. Did you take osmarender into account? How does it handle the road relation at this point? As much as people always say to not tag for the renderer, we should also not design tagging specifically geared towards one specific renderer. >> Indeed, but I'm thinking ahead here, to a situation where the style of the >> road itself would change at a border. > > The suggestion you made to prevent style bleed sounds like tagging for > the renderer, if that does occur the renderer should be fixed instead. Don't forget it's not that often that a road would cross a boundary and continue a long distance. Names change, refs change, maxspeed, surface, etc. We're already breaking it up for any number of reasons, at a border. But, a bit of preprocessing could also be involved, so that we don't do 'tagging for the renderer', if that makes people feel better. :P -- Lennard ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Patch to render names from routes and custom highway shields on a per country basis
2009/9/20 Lennard : > Relations hold a certain advantage in this case, but we have to consider the > non-relation variants as well. They end up in the DB more or less identical, it just means 2 queries or a join etc instead of a simpler query. > Indeed, but I'm thinking ahead here, to a situation where the style of the > road itself would change at a border. The suggestion you made to prevent style bleed sounds like tagging for the renderer, if that does occur the renderer should be fixed instead. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Patch to render names from routes and custom highway shields on a per country basis
John Smith wrote: > This is one reason to do these sorts of routes as relations instead of > trying to cram lots of information into the way, you then should avoid > overlapping shields if the rendering process is doing it's job. Relations hold a certain advantage in this case, but we have to consider the non-relation variants as well. > If it's just ref numbers changing that shouldn't need anything more > than to split the way would it? Indeed, but I'm thinking ahead here, to a situation where the style of the road itself would change at a border. -- Lennard ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Patch to render names from routes and custom highway shields on a per country basis
2009/9/20 Lennard : > Not just countries, but also states (different shields per state, for > instance). Granted: same thing really. This is one reason to do these sorts of routes as relations instead of trying to cram lots of information into the way, you then should avoid overlapping shields if the rendering process is doing it's job. > A little birdie once told me of a trick used by a certain map maker. > Split the border-crossing road twice, so there is only a short section > that actually crosses the border; probably less than 10 meters. Assign > one of the styles to that short section, either randomly or by length or > any other means. Because these sections are so short, it's not > noticeable on a map, and you don't have "style bleed". If it's just ref numbers changing that shouldn't need anything more than to split the way would it? ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Patch to render names from routes and custom highway shields on a per country basis
2009/9/20 Martijn van Oosterhout : > I suppose it would be possible to get osm2pgsql to assign columns > based on country locations, if the relevant polygons were available in > another table. Handling diffs is not the problem, osm2pgsql knows > exactly which things have changed and can do the relevent query to > supplement the data. Any thoughts on osm2pgsql patches to do this? Would be be able to use a shape file for this instead of trying to use information that may or may not already exist in the DB? ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Patch to render names from routes and custom highway shields on a per country basis
Martijn van Oosterhout wrote: > I suppose it would be possible to get osm2pgsql to assign columns > based on country locations, if the relevant polygons were available in Not just countries, but also states (different shields per state, for instance). Granted: same thing really. >> One more issue I see is what to do with features that cross these >> boundaries? Which style will/should they get? Should the import split >> them into 2 features, each on one side of the boundary? > > Tricky, not something that's going to be solved the first try. A little birdie once told me of a trick used by a certain map maker. Split the border-crossing road twice, so there is only a short section that actually crosses the border; probably less than 10 meters. Assign one of the styles to that short section, either randomly or by length or any other means. Because these sections are so short, it's not noticeable on a map, and you don't have "style bleed". -- Lennard ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Patch to render names from routes and custom highway shields on a per country basis
On Wed, Sep 16, 2009 at 4:46 PM, Lennard wrote: > OTOH, if osm2pgsql will only run some queries and let postgis handle the > stamping of features with a proper field to filter on in the stylesheet, > it can be done at the end of the import. The challenge to this method is > in how to handle diffs. You wouldn't want to run through every geometry > in your database everytime you import diffs, but only the changed ones. I suppose it would be possible to get osm2pgsql to assign columns based on country locations, if the relevant polygons were available in another table. Handling diffs is not the problem, osm2pgsql knows exactly which things have changed and can do the relevent query to supplement the data. > One more issue I see is what to do with features that cross these > boundaries? Which style will/should they get? Should the import split > them into 2 features, each on one side of the boundary? Tricky, not something that's going to be solved the first try. Have a nice day, -- Martijn van Oosterhout http://svana.org/kleptog/ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Patch to render names from routes and custom highway shields on a per country basis
2009/9/17 Lennard : > If those relations get flattened into a planet_osm_line geometry, you have 2 > (or more?) for the same stretch of road. One for the shields, another for > the name. Join them up in a query, or split shields and names handling > everywhere and take what you need from the relevant geometries. Yes, but the information differs. > OTOH, if osm2pgsql will only run some queries and let postgis handle the > stamping of features with a proper field to filter on in the stylesheet, it > can be done at the end of the import. The challenge to this method is in how > to handle diffs. You wouldn't want to run through every geometry in your > database everytime you import diffs, but only the changed ones. It should be possible/best to do it at the end of an update/import and just tag as needed. > One more issue I see is what to do with features that cross these > boundaries? Which style will/should they get? Should the import split them > into 2 features, each on one side of the boundary? I would, although I don't really have to figure that out with Australia being an island and all :) ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Patch to render names from routes and custom highway shields on a per country basis
John Smith wrote: > This is already dealt with for coast lines, so it shouldn't be much of > a jump to deal with country borders in a similar way. Indeed, but a factor to take into account. Only update your internal version of the boundary when a newer and valid version is in OSM. > At present we're using multiple relations where the name changes along > a route but the ref stays the same and vice versa so it's not possible > with the current pre-processing that is done to do a nice little query > to get the shield and name from the same query. I have no idea how to > fix this. If those relations get flattened into a planet_osm_line geometry, you have 2 (or more?) for the same stretch of road. One for the shields, another for the name. Join them up in a query, or split shields and names handling everywhere and take what you need from the relevant geometries. > The other biggy is dealing with the country borders during > pre-processing, again no idea how to do this. You'd have to supply osm2pgsql with the relevant borders right off the bat, before it starts importing. That would mean 2 runs over the planet file (ouch!), or publishing a separate file with the relevant data. That is if you let osm2pgsql do the processing. As with coastlines, the country/state boundaries don't change drastically in the course of weeks, so an updated version of the regions could be generated every once in a while. OTOH, if osm2pgsql will only run some queries and let postgis handle the stamping of features with a proper field to filter on in the stylesheet, it can be done at the end of the import. The challenge to this method is in how to handle diffs. You wouldn't want to run through every geometry in your database everytime you import diffs, but only the changed ones. One more issue I see is what to do with features that cross these boundaries? Which style will/should they get? Should the import split them into 2 features, each on one side of the boundary? -- Lennard ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Patch to render names from routes and custom highway shields on a per country basis
2009/9/16 Lennard : > You're most welcome to do that, as in #osm-nl we have talked about > regionalised rendering as well, in the past. I've rolled one small aspect of > this out on our walking routes map, which renders different shields for The > Netherlands and Belgium. I did copy our country boundary polygons to another > table, because if for some reason the country boundary in OSM is non-closed, > the whole regionalised rendering would fall over. This is already dealt with for coast lines, so it shouldn't be much of a jump to deal with country borders in a similar way. > What were the other issues you had thought up? At present we're using multiple relations where the name changes along a route but the ref stays the same and vice versa so it's not possible with the current pre-processing that is done to do a nice little query to get the shield and name from the same query. I have no idea how to fix this. The other biggy is dealing with the country borders during pre-processing, again no idea how to do this. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Patch to render names from routes and custom highway shields on a per country basis
John Smith wrote: > I didn't think it would be the best option, for most of the reasons > you point out, however we have to start some where, so I thought I'd > get the ball rolling. You're most welcome to do that, as in #osm-nl we have talked about regionalised rendering as well, in the past. I've rolled one small aspect of this out on our walking routes map, which renders different shields for The Netherlands and Belgium. I did copy our country boundary polygons to another table, because if for some reason the country boundary in OSM is non-closed, the whole regionalised rendering would fall over. My thoughts are that the import process should sort out the hard part of this: comparing of features against a polygon, and stamping them with a field we can filter on in mapnik. Either by running some sql at the end of the import (but should also work for diffs and changed polygons), or by doing this itself. What were the other issues you had thought up? -- Lennard ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Patch to render names from routes and custom highway shields on a per country basis
2009/9/16 Lennard : > I commented on the ticket. This is a better place to discuss this than on a bug tracker: > This aussie patch is /an/ approach, but not necessarily the best. It makes > relatively expensive calls to postgis to get the Aussie boundary and compare > each route to that. While that may look innocent enough, try extrapolating > doing this for 50+ countries. That's even discounting the explosion in the > size of osm.xml. >As a way to handle the expensive postgis calls: I think a much better approach >would be to determine locality of features during import, and not during >rendering. The import will take longer, sure, but tile rendering should be >much faster than using your run-time filtering method. > On the matter of stylesheet maintainability, XML entities definately come in > very handy here, but it will still be a humongous stylesheet. Other > approaches like cascadenik should not be discounted for this. I didn't think it would be the best option, for most of the reasons you point out, however we have to start some where, so I thought I'd get the ball rolling. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Patch to render names from routes and custom highway shields on a per country basis
John Smith wrote: > While my patch works, I don't know if this is the best solution to the > problem or not: > > http://trac.openstreetmap.org/attachment/ticket/1666/osm.xml-patch I commented on the ticket. -- Lennard ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] Patch to render names from routes and custom highway shields on a per country basis
While my patch works, I don't know if this is the best solution to the problem or not: http://trac.openstreetmap.org/attachment/ticket/1666/osm.xml-patch ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
