[OSM-talk] bot proposal: shop values cleanup (low use values only, 1 used 250 times, three over 100 times, many used less)

[Mateusz Konieczny via talk]

bot proposal: shop values cleanup (low use values only, 1 used 250 times, three 
over 100 times, many used less)

For quite long time I am trying to use OSM-based products as Google
Maps replacement. One of major issues are POIs (in many apects). Small
part of that are POIs marked but in way that makes them unusuable
anyway. This is also problems for mappers, especially newbies, confused
for example why nice icon is not appearing on some (and problem is for
example shop=hair_dresser vs shop=hairdresser).


For start I want to propose to people to review shop tags in their area
with undocumented shop values or ones documented as problematic.

See http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/1u2o

For each case either shop should be either


(1) retagged and shop=* changed
(2) such shop value should have its value documented at OSM Wiki (I
documented some, see for example
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dcatalogue ) (3)
sometimes new value should be invented, documented and shop=* retagged
to it


https://community.openstreetmap.org/c/general/tagging/70 may be useful
for discussing new shop=* values (local discussion channel may be also
useful, but I strongly recommend asking wider community about new
values to avoid avoidable confusion). Some people go through
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposal_process - but
discussion/review step is the most useful one and you can use just this.


Tagging mailing list also exists and can be used for discussing new
tags.


https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Creating_a_page_describing_key_or_value
may be also useful.


But some of shop values can be safely automatically replaced by another
shop value. For example shop=shoe can be safely migrated to shop=shoes
without human review.


-


Getting to the bot edit itself (and I want to note that I am more
excited about finding missing shop values and documenting them and
adding them to presets/documentation than I am about retagging):


So I am proposing to extend
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Mechanical_Edits/Mateusz_Konieczny_-_bot_account/fixing_malformed_shop_tags
by adding more tag replacements.


Please let me know if any of replacements here are dubious and values
require human review/survey to be replaced or are actualy valid. I know
that list is long, so if someone wants to review but needs more than 2
weeks - please write and I can wait for longer.


Also, let me know if anyone would want to get list of affected objects
for review or manual retagging or listing of edits that added this tags
and so on.


tags with highest use, among ones that will be retagged 
shop = chandler with 113 uses
shop = stationary with 116 uses
shop = hardware_store with 60 uses
shop = lamps with 250 uses
shop = knife with 60 uses
shop = unattended with 87 uses (see 
https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/130756523 - this mapper added
all* of them and is fine with such change 
*including one as a typo, that is why another mapper may
be credited with it)
shop = local_shop with 53 uses
shop = retail with 145 uses

shop = chandler → shop = ship_chandler
shop = chandlery → shop = ship_chandler
shop = chandlers → shop = ship_chandler
shop = stationary → shop = stationery
shop = hardware_store → shop = hardware (Note: there are weird clusters of
shop=hardware in some places, but that is a bit different story -
I suspect some systematic mistake or bad mapping, unless there are African
towns where 1/4 of all shops are really shop=hardware - though either way
local on the ground survey seems needed)
shop = vaping → shop = e-cigarette
shop = vape_store → shop = e-cigarette
shop = vape → shop = e-cigarette
shop = Vape_Store → shop = e-cigarette
shop = lamps → shop = lighting
shop = lamp → shop = lighting
shop = Lighting_Shop → shop = lighting
shop = knife → shop = knives
shop = collectibles → shop = collector
shop = unattended → shop = vacant
shop = for_rent → shop = vacant
shop = unused → shop = vacant
shop = vacancy → shop = vacant
shop = local_shop → shop = yes (though looking at
https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/6771559662/history and other - maybe
this import should be reverted due to dubious quality?)
shop = retail → shop = yes
shop = Retail → shop = yes
shop = Retails → shop = yes
shop = generic → shop = yes
shop = ??? → shop = yes
shop = retailer → shop = yes
shop = retails → shop = yes (again 
"SUZA Indusrtial training Resillence Academy" but this suspect data
will be more detectable as shop=yes - see say
https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/6771699918)
shop = misc → shop = yes
shop = commercial → shop = yes
shop = Generic shop → shop = yes
shop = true → shop = yes
shop = Retail Shop → shop = yes  
shop = miscellaneous → shop = yes 
(second_hand / variety_store / catalogue / department_store etc may fit)

shop = miscelanea → shop = yes
shop = bazaar → shop = yes
shop = samoobsługowy → shop = yes (Polish translation)
shop = fixme → shop = yes 
shop = egg → shop = eggs 
(both undocumented for now, but consolida

Re: [OSM-talk] bot proposal: shop values cleanup (low use values only, 1 used 250 times, three over 100 times, many used less)

[Marc_marc]

Le 20.04.23 à 20:50, Mateusz Konieczny via talk a écrit :

bot proposal: shop values cleanup


ok


For start I want to propose to people to review shop tags in their area
with undocumented shop values or ones documented as problematic.
See http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/1u2o 


I find that this point has no place in a mass edition and it makes
your proposal less understandable
making 2 topics, one with mechanical editing of cases that do not 
require individual review and the other with a call for review of 
objects, would be more readable



tags with highest use, among ones that will be retagged
shop = chandler with 113 uses

..

and witch fix for thoses values ?



shop = local_shop → shop = yes (though looking at
https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/6771559662/history 
 and other - maybe

this import should be reverted due to dubious quality?)


I don't see the issue, addr:ward ?
let's talk about it in another thread


shop = retail → shop = yes
shop = Retail → shop = yes
shop = Retails → shop = yes
shop = generic → shop = yes
shop = ??? → shop = yes
shop = retailer → shop = yes
shop = retails → shop = yes


I think some of this may stem from the controversial decision to hide 
shop=yes in osmcarto, a decision I find incomprehensible. seeing that
a shop exists is better than seeing nothing, even if the type of shop is 
not yet known (there is a rendering for highway=road)

not against... but we are regressing as much as we are progressing


add/remove s as needed - can I do this for all shop values where such
modification will change them to a searchable shop value present in iD
presets, also without going through review like this one?


"add/remove s as needed to match more common/preset"
is for me an acceptable rule


with trailing space at the end - would it be fine to do it also
with other known valid values (listed on Wiki or in iD presets as valid)
if they appear, without a separate bot proposal?


removing all trailing space is for me an acceptable rule


would it be fine to do it also with other known valid values
(snip '_shop', ' shop', ' store', '_store', '_products', ' products'


you meaning removing space and _ at both begin and end ?
if so yes


etc at the end of shop value if it produces valid shop type


and also if it's not an already documented/preset value


shop=patisserie


shop=bakery


shop=bijouterie


shop=jewelry

Regards,
Marc



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Re: [OSM-talk] bot proposal: shop values cleanup (low use values only, 1 used 250 times, three over 100 times, many used less)

[Andy Mabbett]

On Thu, 20 Apr 2023 at 19:50, Mateusz Konieczny via talk
 wrote:

> shop = chandler → shop = ship_chandler

In the UK at least, chandlers are more likely to cater for boats than ships.

> shop = vaping → shop = e-cigarette> shop = vape_store → shop = e-cigarette

"vape" seems to be the more widely-used term, in the UK.

> shop = collectibles → shop = collector

I have yet to see a shop that sells collectors; "collectibles" seems fine

> shop = unattended → shop = vacant

"Unattended" is not "vacant"; it can mean a place where one pays in an
"honesty box", or uses vending machines.

> shop = for_rent → shop = vacant

Or is this a shop where one rents equipment? Or an apartment?

> shop = beauty33 → shop = beauty

Is "Beauty33" a name or brand?

> shop = herbs → shop = herbalist

Not necessarily the same; a herbalist does not sell cooking herbs.


[No view on other values]


--
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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Re: [OSM-talk] bot proposal: shop values cleanup (low use values only, 1 used 250 times, three over 100 times, many used less)

[Andy Townsend]

On 20/04/2023 19:50, Mateusz Konieczny via talk wrote:

For start I want to propose to people to review shop tags in their area
with undocumented shop values or ones documented as problematic.

See http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/1u2o



Reviewing "odd" tags before tagfiddling them away seems to me a very 
sensible approach.  However, running that query locally finds, alongside 
a couple of typos by me, lots that are very much correct, but just not 
on your list - there are some very odd shops out there.


To change "shop=veryrarevalue" where it was correct to 
"shop=lessrarevalue"without preserving the detail somehow loses detail 
from OSM and is therefore by definition a Bad Thing.  Some of the 
entries on your list I'd definitely want to check onsite ("gun" and 
"firearms" is one obvious one such, but there are others).


Also, changing rare shop types into "yes" helps absolutely no-one.  If a 
data consumer wants to handle a catch-all for "shop" they can; they 
don't need them to be set to "yes" first.


That doesn't mean we should keep obvious rubbish in OSM - 
"shop=stationary" is an obvious and amusing typo for "shop=stationery".  
Single-use examples, especially featuring capital letters like 
https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/1u2R ("shop=Chandlery") are also obvious 
candidates for changing to something at least non-capitalised.


The rest, however, I really won't worry about.  I disagree very much 
with your paragraph that starts "For quite long time...", but let's not 
let that get in the way of fixing what ought to be fixed - either 
manually or automatically.


Best Regards,

Andy



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Re: [OSM-talk] bot proposal: shop values cleanup (low use values only, 1 used 250 times, three over 100 times, many used less)

[Mark Wagner]

On Thu, 20 Apr 2023 20:47:34 +0100
Andy Mabbett  wrote:

> On Thu, 20 Apr 2023 at 19:50, Mateusz Konieczny via talk
>  wrote:

> > shop = unattended → shop = vacant  
> 
> "Unattended" is not "vacant"; it can mean a place where one pays in an
> "honesty box", or uses vending machines.

These were all added by a single user, who confirmed that "unattended"
meant "vacant".  I don't see it as being a controversial change.

-- 
Mark

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Re: [OSM-talk] bot proposal: shop values cleanup (low use values only, 1 used 250 times, three over 100 times, many used less)

[Jochen Topf]

On Thu, Apr 20, 2023 at 10:11:49PM +0100, Andy Townsend wrote:
> To change "shop=veryrarevalue" where it was correct to
> "shop=lessrarevalue"without preserving the detail somehow loses detail from
> OSM and is therefore by definition a Bad Thing.  Some of the entries on your

I disagree with that blanket "Bad Thing". It is much more likely that a
general map will show shop=lessrarevalue with a specific icon than
shop=veryrarevalue. So if you are using shop=veryrarevalue instead of
shop=lessrarevalue you might lose detail in the database, but in
practice you will gain detail in actual use. There is probably a sweet
spot somewhere in the middle, enough detail to allow to differentiate
"important" differences while not adding too much detail overwhelming
anybody who wants to use the data.

Jochen
-- 
Jochen Topf  joc...@remote.org  https://www.jochentopf.com/  +49-351-31778688

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Re: [OSM-talk] bot proposal: shop values cleanup (low use values only, 1 used 250 times, three over 100 times, many used less)

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

Am Fr., 21. Apr. 2023 um 09:47 Uhr schrieb Jochen Topf :

> On Thu, Apr 20, 2023 at 10:11:49PM +0100, Andy Townsend wrote:
> > To change "shop=veryrarevalue" where it was correct to
> > "shop=lessrarevalue"without preserving the detail somehow loses detail
> from
> > OSM and is therefore by definition a Bad Thing.  Some of the entries on
> your
>
> I disagree with that blanket "Bad Thing". It is much more likely that a
> general map will show shop=lessrarevalue with a specific icon than
> shop=veryrarevalue. So if you are using shop=veryrarevalue instead of
> shop=lessrarevalue you might lose detail in the database, but in
> practice you will gain detail in actual use.
>


what we actually want is both, a reasonably generic/specific value for a
"main" class, and potentially additional tag(s) for details.
Rather than just replacing shop=veryrarevalue with shop=moregenericvalue,
we should probably also add moregenericvalue=veryrarevalue

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [OSM-talk] bot proposal: shop values cleanup (low use values only, 1 used 250 times, three over 100 times, many used less)

[Warin]

On 21/4/23 04:50, Mateusz Konieczny via talk wrote:
bot proposal: shop values cleanup (low use values only, 1 used 250 
times, three over 100 times, many used less)


For quite long time I am trying to use OSM-based products as Google
Maps replacement. One of major issues are POIs (in many apects). Small
part of that are POIs marked but in way that makes them unusuable
anyway.



A rendering issue.

Why not have a generic symbol for 'shop' and use that for any value of 
shop that you don't have a specific symbol for?




This is also problems for mappers, especially newbies, confused
for example why nice icon is not appearing on some (and problem is for
example shop=hair_dresser vs shop=hairdresser).


For start I want to propose to people to review shop tags in their area
with undocumented shop values or ones documented as problematic.

See http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/1u2o

For each case either shop should be either


(1) retagged and shop=* changed
(2) such shop value should have its value documented at OSM Wiki (I
documented some, see for example
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dcatalogue ) (3)
sometimes new value should be invented, documented and shop=* retagged
to it


https://community.openstreetmap.org/c/general/tagging/70 may be useful
for discussing new shop=* values (local discussion channel may be also
useful, but I strongly recommend asking wider community about new
values to avoid avoidable confusion). Some people go through
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposal_process - but
discussion/review step is the most useful one and you can use just this.


Tagging mailing list also exists and can be used for discussing new
tags.


https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Creating_a_page_describing_key_or_value
may be also useful.


But some of shop values can be safely automatically replaced by another
shop value. For example shop=shoe can be safely migrated to shop=shoes
without human review.


-


Getting to the bot edit itself (and I want to note that I am more
excited about finding missing shop values and documenting them and
adding them to presets/documentation than I am about retagging):


So I am proposing to extend
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Mechanical_Edits/Mateusz_Konieczny_-_bot_account/fixing_malformed_shop_tags
by adding more tag replacements.


Please let me know if any of replacements here are dubious and values
require human review/survey to be replaced or are actualy valid. I know
that list is long, so if someone wants to review but needs more than 2
weeks - please write and I can wait for longer.


Also, let me know if anyone would want to get list of affected objects
for review or manual retagging or listing of edits that added this tags
and so on.


tags with highest use, among ones that will be retagged
shop = chandler with 113 uses
shop = stationary with 116 uses
shop = hardware_store with 60 uses
shop = lamps with 250 uses
shop = knife with 60 uses
shop = unattended with 87 uses (see
https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/130756523 - this mapper added
all* of them and is fine with such change
*including one as a typo, that is why another mapper may
be credited with it)
shop = local_shop with 53 uses
shop = retail with 145 uses

shop = chandler → shop = ship_chandler
shop = chandlery → shop = ship_chandler
shop = chandlers → shop = ship_chandler



A 'chandler' is a person who posses a shop that is a 'chandlery'. Boats 
are smaller than ships and more numerous.


I would think 'shop=chandlery' is best as it applies to both boats and 
ships.



shop = stationary → shop = stationery
shop = hardware_store → shop = hardware (Note: there are weird clusters of
shop=hardware in some places, but that is a bit different story -
I suspect some systematic mistake or bad mapping, unless there are African
towns where 1/4 of all shops are really shop=hardware - though either way
local on the ground survey seems needed)
shop = vaping → shop = e-cigarette
shop = vape_store → shop = e-cigarette
shop = vape → shop = e-cigarette
shop = Vape_Store → shop = e-cigarette
shop = lamps → shop = lighting
shop = lamp → shop = lighting
shop = Lighting_Shop → shop = lighting
shop = knife → shop = knives
shop = collectibles → shop = collector

No, shops these days do not sell people.

shop = unattended → shop = vacant
shop = for_rent → shop = vacant
shop = unused → shop = vacant
shop = vacancy → shop = vacant

These could be tagged disused:shop=* and retain the past use.

shop = local_shop → shop = yes (though looking at
https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/6771559662/history and other - maybe
this import should be reverted due to dubious quality?)
shop = retail → shop = yes
shop = Retail → shop = yes
shop = Retails → shop = yes
shop = generic → shop = yes
shop = ??? → shop = yes
shop = retailer → shop = yes
shop = retails → shop = yes (again
"SUZA Indusrtial training Resillence Academy" but this suspect data
will be more detectable as shop=yes - see say
https://www.open

Re: [OSM-talk] bot proposal: shop values cleanup (low use values only, 1 used 250 times, three over 100 times, many used less)

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

Am Fr., 21. Apr. 2023 um 11:19 Uhr schrieb Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com>:

>
> A rendering issue.
>
> Why not have a generic symbol for 'shop' and use that for any value of
> shop that you don't have a specific symbol for?
>


this is a deliberate decision, because it would provide positive feedback
also for shop values that are mistyped, at least this is the argument AFAIK.
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Re: [OSM-talk] bot proposal: shop values cleanup (low use values only, 1 used 250 times, three over 100 times, many used less)

[Mateusz Konieczny via talk]

Apr 20, 2023, 23:18 by ajt1...@gmail.com:

> On 20/04/2023 19:50, Mateusz Konieczny via talk wrote:
>
>> For start I want to propose to people to review shop tags in their area
>> with undocumented shop values or ones documented as problematic.
>>
>> See http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/1u2o
>>
>
> Reviewing "odd" tags before tagfiddling them away seems to me a very sensible 
> approach.  However, running that query locally finds, alongside a couple of 
> typos by me, lots that are very much correct, but just not on your list - 
> there are some very odd shops out there.
>

Note that I mentioned that many of them should be rather documented
(or new values covering them invented).

> To change "shop=veryrarevalue" where it was correct to 
> "shop=lessrarevalue"without preserving the detail somehow loses detail from 
> OSM and is therefore by definition a Bad Thing.  Some of the entries on your 
> list I'd definitely want to check onsite ("gun" and "firearms" is one obvious 
> one such, but there are others).
>
I agree in general, this batch is supposed to be listing 1:1 replacements
(I have similar list where I gather cases more suitable for shop=something + 
extra tag,
like shop=dog_groomer to shop=pet_groomer + pet=dog)

If you see any like this here, please let me know.

> Also, changing rare shop types into "yes" helps absolutely no-one.  If a data 
> consumer wants to handle a catch-all for "shop" they can; they don't need 
> them to be set to "yes" first.
>
It helps because maintaining lists of many many many rarely used meaningless 
values
in every single QA tool and validator and tool doing this is annoying at best.

For quite reasonable reasons JOSM developers do not want patches handling 
barely used
tags - if in 2025 someone uses say 50 instances of shop=needs_to_survey they do 
not
want to get a patch.

Also, there is no data loss whatsoever if confusing meaningless value (like 
shop=retail
or shop=??? gets changed into a standard meaningless value)

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Re: [OSM-talk] bot proposal: shop values cleanup (low use values only, 1 used 250 times, three over 100 times, many used less)

[Mateusz Konieczny via talk]

Apr 21, 2023, 11:18 by 61sundow...@gmail.com:

>
> On 21/4/23 04:50, Mateusz Konieczny via talk wrote:
>
>> bot proposal: shop values cleanup (low use values only, 1 used 250 times, 
>> three over 100 times, many used less)
>>
>> For quite long time I am trying to use OSM-based products as Google
>> Maps replacement. One of major issues are POIs (in many apects). Small
>> part of that are POIs marked but in way that makes them unusuable
>> anyway.
>>
>
>
> A rendering issue.
>
Not only a rendering issue, when you search for tea shop and it was marked as
shop=herbata ("herbata" is Polish for tea) then even a well written search tool
will fail to reliably find it.

Also, rendering cannot be expected to shop=florist shop=flower shop=flowers
shop=florist2 shop=floristt shop=floorist shop=kwiaty shop=blumen and all
other possible variants (even if we do not care about feedback to mappers)

>> shop = chandler → shop = ship_chandler
>> shop = chandlery → shop = ship_chandler
>> shop = chandlers → shop = ship_chandler
>>
>
>
> A 'chandler' is a person who posses a shop that is a 'chandlery'. Boats are 
> smaller than ships and more numerous.
>
> I would think 'shop=chandlery' is best as it applies to both boats and ships.
>
Either way I will leave it out of the list if that is not an obvious change.
(and I already removed this on)

>> shop = collectibles → shop = collector
>>
> No, shops these days do not sell people.
>
note https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dcollector
and anyway risk of confusion here that shop=collector sells people seems not 
very likely
(and say https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dhairdresser )

I am not proposing here establishing shop=collector - for better or worse
it is established already

>> shop = unattended → shop = vacant
>> shop = for_rent → shop = vacant
>> shop = unused → shop = vacant
>> shop = vacancy → shop = vacant
>>
> These could be tagged disused:shop=* and retain the past use.
>
not really, as current tagging does not give info (and checking history does not
give info whether past equipment/sign/anything is still there, and it is not
important enough to open notes or bother people via changeset comments - 
and shop=vacant can be reliably handled as empty shop 
I could migrate to disused:shop=yes but in turn some people described 
disued:shop=
as not fitting for shop space that was never used
)

>> shop = bazaar → shop = yes
>>
>
>
> Humm bazaar = a market in a Middle Eastern or Asian country. These usually 
> consist of a number of shops .. May be better mapped as amenity=marketplace?
>
I though so - but all I checked were about individual shops. And shop=yes will 
be 
flagged for resurvey anyway

Can skip if it is in doubt

>> shop = sport → shop = sports
>>
>
> The secondary tag of 'sport=*' does  not have the 's' .. this may lead to 
> errors. I'd retain 'shop=sport'.
>
note https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dsports - again, I am not
proposing introducing new shop value

>> shop = foods → shop = food
>>
> Foods .. usually more than one.
>
we also have established shop=food tag

>> shop = paints → shop = paint
>>
> Paints .. usually more than one.
>
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dpaint is well established,
that is 14886 vs 10 uses right now

though if someone will convince OSM community to deprecate shop=paint and
switch to shop=paints then situation would be different

but until it happens having shop=paints is just confusing (such as questions
"this shop is tagged, why it is without icon?")

>> shop = door → shop = doors
>> shop = health_foods → shop = health_food
>> shop = locksmiths → shop = locksmith
>> shop = bathroom_furnishings → shop = bathroom_furnishing
>>
>> low use values based on review of other low use values with extra s,
>> this were not reviewed specifically
>>
>
>
> Most of thefollowing .. I'd reatin the 's' as they would sell more than one 
> kind.
>
also when we have established s-less value?

>> shop = farm_stand → shop = farm
>>
> A 'stand' is a particular structure .. different from a retail building, so 
> may require an additional tag 'building=stand' ???
>
I guess that someone can look anyway as shop=* not inside buildings...

> Hope that helps.
>
thanks for review!

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Re: [OSM-talk] bot proposal: shop values cleanup (low use values only, 1 used 250 times, three over 100 times, many used less)

[Mateusz Konieczny via talk]

Apr 21, 2023, 10:17 by dieterdre...@gmail.com:

>
>
> Am Fr., 21. Apr. 2023 um 09:47 Uhr schrieb Jochen Topf <> joc...@remote.org> 
> >:
>
>> On Thu, Apr 20, 2023 at 10:11:49PM +0100, Andy Townsend wrote:
>>  > To change "shop=veryrarevalue" where it was correct to
>>  > "shop=lessrarevalue"without preserving the detail somehow loses detail 
>> from
>>  > OSM and is therefore by definition a Bad Thing.  Some of the entries on 
>> your
>>  
>>  I disagree with that blanket "Bad Thing". It is much more likely that a
>>  general map will show shop=lessrarevalue with a specific icon than
>>  shop=veryrarevalue. So if you are using shop=veryrarevalue instead of
>>  shop=lessrarevalue you might lose detail in the database, but in
>>  practice you will gain detail in actual use.
>>
>
>
> what we actually want is both, a reasonably generic/specific value for a 
> "main" class, and potentially additional tag(s) for details.
> Rather than just replacing shop=veryrarevalue with shop=moregenericvalue, we 
> should probably also add moregenericvalue=veryrarevalue
>
I agree, for example 

shop=socks vs shop=clothes clothes=socks
shop=firewood vs shop=fuel fuel=wood
shop=dog_grooming vs shop=pet_grooming pet=dog
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Re: [OSM-talk] bot proposal: shop values cleanup (low use values only, 1 used 250 times, three over 100 times, many used less)

[Marc_marc]

Le 21.04.23 à 11:29, Martin Koppenhoefer a écrit :
Am Fr., 21. Apr. 2023 um 11:19 Uhr schrieb Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com 
>:



A rendering issue.

Why not have a generic symbol for 'shop' and use that for any value of
shop that you don't have a specific symbol for?



this is a deliberate decision, because it would provide positive 
feedback


I don't see how "hidde" is positive feedback

a lot of things are hidden on the standard render,
it has many different meanings
- shop=yes is not precise enough for the rendering team (but 
highway=road is precise enough)

- you made a typo shhop=* for example
- the tag is not present enough (craf=* or on the contrary there
is a fear of overload (emergency=defibrillator) or nobody has
yet written the necessary code




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Re: [OSM-talk] bot proposal: shop values cleanup (low use values only, 1 used 250 times, three over 100 times, many used less)

[Andy Townsend]

On 21/04/2023 12:17, Mateusz Konieczny via talk wrote:
It helps because maintaining lists of many many many rarely used 
meaningless values
in every single QA tool and validator and tool doing this is annoying 
at best.



For the avoidance of doubt we are NOT talking about meaningless values 
here.  We're also not talking about obvious misspellings, like the 
previously mentioned "shop=Chandlery" (that entry has a website that 
confirms that the tag is just misspelt).  We're not talking about 
genuine duplicates ("shop=healthcare" vs "shop=health_care") where 
literally no-one is going to assume a different meaning.


We're actually talking about the "long tail" of shop values - genuine, 
perfectly descriptive, perfectly valid values, like "shop=whisky" that 
someone mentioned on IRC this morning. Changing that to something 
generic without recording the extra detail somewhere (and communicating 
to data consumers where that extra detail has moved to) is essentially 
low-grade vandalism - removing detail from OSM.  It devalues the hard 
work of the people who surveyed these things in the first place.


You previously changed "shop=luxury" to "shop=yes" and then changed it 
back when I complained (see e.g. 
https://osm.mapki.com/history/node/2642857189 and 
https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/134837986 ).  As I said on that 
changeset, surely some of those values could be set to better actual 
values.  https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/2642857046 is part of a 
chain https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/1u3W with variable tagging; the most 
popular of those would be better than "luxury", but either would be 
better than "yes": https://osm.mapki.com/history/node/2642857046 .  Some 
of the others (the unnamed ones) may benefit from a resurvey since they 
were added in 2014.


The fact that you find it "annoying" to deal with this detail in OSM is 
extremely disappointing.  I would have expected better.  It really isn't 
rocket science to deal with the "shop" key - it's just one key with a 
set of values.  If you want a challenge, try "historic" (though that is 
also possible: 
https://map.atownsend.org.uk/maps/map/map.html#17/-25.00937/135.17762 ).


Best Regards,

Andy



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Re: [OSM-talk] bot proposal: shop values cleanup (low use values only, 1 used 250 times, three over 100 times, many used less)

[Mateusz Konieczny via talk]

Apr 20, 2023, 21:54 by a...@pigsonthewing.org.uk:

> On Thu, 20 Apr 2023 at 19:50, Mateusz Konieczny via talk
>  wrote:
>
>> shop = chandler → shop = ship_chandler
>>
>
> In the UK at least, chandlers are more likely to cater for boats than ships.
>
removing from list then

>> shop = vaping → shop = e-cigarette> shop = vape_store → shop = e-cigarette
>>
>
> "vape" seems to be the more widely-used term, in the UK.
>
but it is the same shop type, right?
Note that https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop=e-cigarette is 
established
value - do you think it is bad/misleading/unclear enough that we should have 
both
shop = vape and shop = e-cigarette despite them being synonymous?

>> shop = collectibles → shop = collector
>>
>
> I have yet to see a shop that sells collectors; "collectibles" seems fine
>
the same: see https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop=collector
>> shop = unattended → shop = vacant
>>
>
> "Unattended" is not "vacant"; it can mean a place where one pays in an
> "honesty box", or uses vending machines.
>
good point that it should not be repeated without checking again
but currently every single use was added in meaning shop=vacant
(single mapper)

>> shop = for_rent → shop = vacant
>>
>
> Or is this a shop where one rents equipment? Or an apartment?
>
removed from list, back to asking mappers what they meant
(not sure when I will get to it, feel free to ask on changeset comments/via 
notes)

>> shop = beauty33 → shop = beauty
>>
>
> Is "Beauty33" a name or brand?
>
very unlikely, trailing 2 or 3 after actual value is a common typo for some 
reason
as one of very low use values with extra trailing debris I just fixed it
in https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/803800872/history
and removed from bot list


>> shop = herbs → shop = herbalist
>>
>
> Not necessarily the same; a herbalist does not sell cooking herbs.
>
removed from list, will ask mappers whether they meant
shop=herbalist or shop=spices (somewhere in year 2033 probably at 
current rate, so feel free to find who added it and ask them
before I will do this)
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Re: [OSM-talk] bot proposal: shop values cleanup (low use values only, 1 used 250 times, three over 100 times, many used less)

[Mateusz Konieczny via talk]

Apr 21, 2023, 14:09 by ajt1...@gmail.com:

> On 21/04/2023 12:17, Mateusz Konieczny via talk wrote:
>
>> It helps because maintaining lists of many many many rarely used meaningless 
>> values
>> in every single QA tool and validator and tool doing this is annoying at 
>> best.
>>
>
>
> For the avoidance of doubt we are NOT talking about meaningless values here.
>
In this section it was about specifically values having no info, like 
shop=retail
or shop=local_shop or shop=??? (unless it actually has some value that would
be lost? like in shop=luxury case? but that is why I am asking here)

not that this note was NOT about long tail like shop=coffins or shop=oysters
or shop=nut_store that carry some value that would be lost
by flattening it to shop=yes

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Re: [OSM-talk] bot proposal: shop values cleanup (low use values only, 1 used 250 times, three over 100 times, many used less)

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

Am Fr., 21. Apr. 2023 um 14:08 Uhr schrieb Andy Townsend :

> On 21/04/2023 12:17, Mateusz Konieczny via talk wrote:
> We're actually talking about the "long tail" of shop values - genuine,
> perfectly descriptive, perfectly valid values, like "shop=whisky" that
> someone mentioned on IRC this morning. Changing that to something
> generic without recording the extra detail somewhere (and communicating
> to data consumers where that extra detail has moved to) is essentially
> low-grade vandalism - removing detail from OSM.  It devalues the hard
> work of the people who surveyed these things in the first place.



whole-heartedly agree, it also makes it hard to impossible to "organically"
introduce new classes/types via mapping, because as soon as you add it
someone monitoring some qa tool comes along and changes the specific value
to something established but not so specific or sometimes even not fitting.
These activities are sometimes called "gardening", but in OSM it isn't
completely clear what is weed and what is crop, so we better make it even
clearer that this kind of "gardening" should not be performed.
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Re: [OSM-talk] bot proposal: shop values cleanup (low use values only, 1 used 250 times, three over 100 times, many used less)

[Mateusz Konieczny via talk]

Apr 21, 2023, 15:08 by dieterdre...@gmail.com:

>
>
> Am Fr., 21. Apr. 2023 um 14:08 Uhr schrieb Andy Townsend <> 
> ajt1...@gmail.com> >:
>
>> On 21/04/2023 12:17, Mateusz Konieczny via talk wrote:
>>  We're actually talking about the "long tail" of shop values - genuine, 
>>  perfectly descriptive, perfectly valid values, like "shop=whisky" that 
>>  someone mentioned on IRC this morning. Changing that to something 
>>  generic without recording the extra detail somewhere (and communicating 
>>  to data consumers where that extra detail has moved to) is essentially 
>>  low-grade vandalism - removing detail from OSM.  It devalues the hard 
>>  work of the people who surveyed these things in the first place.
>>
>
>
> whole-heartedly agree, it also makes it hard to impossible to "organically" 
> introduce new classes/types via mapping, because as soon as you add it 
> someone monitoring some qa tool comes along and changes the specific value to 
> something established but not so specific or sometimes even not fitting. 
> These activities are sometimes called "gardening", but in OSM it isn't 
> completely clear what is weed and what is crop, so we better make it even 
> clearer that this kind of "gardening" should not be performed.
>
I agree!

shop=whisky (or shop=beer) should be either
- documented as valid and welcome
- handled by something like shop=alcohol alcohol=beer
- left alone

Retagging them to shop=alcohol and losing detail is not good way to spend time,
flattening to shop=yes would be obviously even worse

but we do not need (theorethical examples ahead this time)
both shop=beer and shop=beers
shop=piwo (shop=beer I guess)
shop=monopolowy (shop=alcohol)
shop=alkohol (shop=alcohol)
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Re: [OSM-talk] bot proposal: shop values cleanup (low use values only, 1 used 250 times, three over 100 times, many used less)

[Andy Mabbett]

On Fri, 21 Apr 2023 at 13:06, Mateusz Konieczny via talk
 wrote:

> Apr 20, 2023, 21:54 by a...@pigsonthewing.org.uk:

> shop = vaping → shop = e-cigarette> shop = vape_store → shop = e-cigarette

> "vape" seems to be the more widely-used term, in the UK.
>
> but it is the same shop type, right?

There is clearly a high degree of overlap. I don't use either, so
cannot say whether there is synonymy, nor which, if any, might be a
subset of the other.

> Note that https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop=e-cigarette is 
> established
> value - do you think it is bad/misleading/unclear enough that we should have 
> both
> shop = vape and shop = e-cigarette despite them being synonymous?

I don't believe that the wiki is regarded by the community as
authoritative. Do you have evidence that it is? Or that the particular
page which you cie is the result of a community consensus?

[other responses acknowledged]

-- 
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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Re: [OSM-talk] bot proposal: shop values cleanup (low use values only, 1 used 250 times, three over 100 times, many used less)

[Mateusz Konieczny via talk]

Apr 21, 2023, 17:45 by a...@pigsonthewing.org.uk:

> On Fri, 21 Apr 2023 at 13:06, Mateusz Konieczny via talk
>  wrote:
>
>> Apr 20, 2023, 21:54 by a...@pigsonthewing.org.uk:
>>
>> shop = vaping → shop = e-cigarette> shop = vape_store → shop = e-cigarette
>>
>> "vape" seems to be the more widely-used term, in the UK.
>>
>> but it is the same shop type, right?
>>
>
> There is clearly a high degree of overlap. I don't use either, so
> cannot say whether there is synonymy, nor which, if any, might be a
> subset of the other.
>
>> Note that https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop=e-cigarette is 
>> established
>> value - do you think it is bad/misleading/unclear enough that we should have 
>> both
>> shop = vape and shop = e-cigarette despite them being synonymous?
>>
>
> I don't believe that the wiki is regarded by the community as
> authoritative. Do you have evidence that it is? Or that the particular
> page which you cie is the result of a community consensus?
>
> [other responses acknowledged]
>
Wiki should not be mindlessly obeyed but it at least tends to be right.

And if shop=e-cigarette and vape shops or vaping shops are not actually
exactly the same thing and such edit is unhelpful then it means that this
page should be significantly rewritten.

Do you have any reason to expect that this things are not the same?

My research so far confirmed that this specific page is right,
though I can ask at https://community.openstreetmap.org/ or 
tagging mailing list or US Slack or somewhere else if there is any real
chance that these are distinct shop type.
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Re: [OSM-talk] bot proposal: shop values cleanup (low use values only, 1 used 250 times, three over 100 times, many used less)

[Mateusz Konieczny via talk]

Apr 20, 2023, 21:50 by marc_m...@mailo.com:

> Le 20.04.23 à 20:50, Mateusz Konieczny via talk a écrit :
>
>> For start I want to propose to people to review shop tags in their area
>> with undocumented shop values or ones documented as problematic.
>> See http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/1u2o 
>>
>
> I find that this point has no place in a mass edition and it makes
> your proposal less understandable
> making 2 topics, one with mechanical editing of cases that do not require 
> individual review and the other with a call for review of objects, would be 
> more readable
>
heh, some time ago someone complained about fixation on bot edits and ignoring
need to document/research things despite that they happened and took far more
time than bot edit itself

next time I will limit to proposed changes, without fluff

>> tags with highest use, among ones that will be retagged
>> shop = chandler with 113 uses
>>
> ..
>
> and witch fix for thoses values ?
>
mentioned later (this is just mention which higher use value are affected),
though I have withdrawn this specific case.

>
>
>> shop = local_shop → shop = yes (though looking at
>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/6771559662/history 
>>  and other - maybe
>> this import should be reverted due to dubious quality?)
>>
very dubious names (name=Retailer Shop), suspicious amount of hardware shops
( https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/74344116 ) with name=hardware shop
name=local shop ( https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/6787735195 ) etc, adding
shop in mass looking like import etc.

>> would it be fine to do it also with other known valid values
>> (snip '_shop', ' shop', ' store', '_store', '_products', ' products'
>>
>
> you meaning removing space and _ at both begin and end ?
> if so yes
>
Here it is about transformation of say shop=butcher_shop to shop=butcher

>> shop=patisserie
>>
>
> shop=bakery
>
not shop=pastry ?

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dpastry
>> shop=bijouterie
>>
>
> shop=jewelry
>
> Regards,
> Marc
>
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] bot proposal: shop values cleanup (low use values only, 1 used 250 times, three over 100 times, many used less)

[Cj Malone]

Sounds good to me. Thank you.

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Re: [OSM-talk] bot proposal: shop values cleanup (low use values only, 1 used 250 times, three over 100 times, many used less)

[Philip Barnes]

On 22 April 2023 08:45:51 BST, Mateusz Konieczny via talk 
 wrote:





shop=patisserie


shop=bakery

not shop=pastry ?

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dpastry


In English I would translate a French patisserie to a cake shop, although 
patisserie is a crossover word that would be understood by most native English 
speakers.

A pastry shop I would expect to see pies, sausage rolls and pasties, and would 
tend to call that a bakery, certainly the one a few doors away makes those 
along with bread but certainly doesn't make cakes.

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Re: [OSM-talk] bot proposal: shop values cleanup (low use values only, 1 used 250 times, three over 100 times, many used less)

[Andy Townsend]

On 22/04/2023 08:38, Mateusz Konieczny via talk wrote:

Wiki should not be mindlessly obeyed but it at least tends to be right.


[citation needed]

The OSM wiki tends to be many things, among those "somewhat helpful" and 
"usually edited in good faith"; but "tends to be right" is very much a 
stretch.


The current status of any page shows you what the last editor of a 
particular page thought about something.  Looking at the history, you 
can see how other people thought too - and sometimes their views are 
very different.  The wiki doesn't necessarily help people understand 
what OSM mappers in general think, because only a tiny fraction of OSM 
mappers update the wiki.  It's also not a great place to compare 
versions and see who added what (there's no "blame" equivalent**).


One of the places where the wiki fails badly is where people have 
different views.  Partly this isn't the OSM wiki's fault - 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Forest tries its best to describe 
the debacle there, but there are many pages that contain essentially the 
same information, and monitoring and maintaining each and every one of 
them would be more than a full-time job.


Often wiki pages are written by people only with knowledge that "this 
OSM tag exists in the OSM database" not with any real-world 
understanding of what a particular feature is.  Often there are links to 
wikipedia, when wikipedia has fundamentally different definition of what 
some particular word means.


Another problem is maintenance.  For example 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Walking_Routes#United_Kingdom is 
just a couple of links, but the do look useful.  The first, 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Long-distance_footpaths_in_the_United_Kingdom 
exists, but some of the information is both not especially relevant and 
somewhat misleading, e.g. "Completed 12/09/2009" - in reality there is 
continual refinement going on with all of these as more detail is 
added.  Occasionally people introduce gaps by mistake and people fill 
them in.


The other link 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_Tagging_Guidelines#Tagging_Access_Provisions 
just redirects to 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/United_Kingdom#Tagging_Access_Provisions 
which does not exist.  Clearly someone edited something but didn't 
realise the links that they were breaking.


Best Regards,

Andy

** wikis do have the concept - see 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiBlame .



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Re: [OSM-talk] bot proposal: shop values cleanup (low use values only, 1 used 250 times, three over 100 times, many used less)

[Andy Townsend]

On 21/04/2023 12:46, Mateusz Konieczny via talk wrote:

when you search for tea shop and it was marked as
shop=herbata ("herbata" is Polish for tea) then even a well written 
search tool

will fail to reliably find it.


Where something is an _absolute direct equivalent_ (but in another 
language) it makes no sense to use a distinct term (no-one's going to 
suggest "highway=autoweg" for motorways in the Netherlands, for 
example), but where there are genuine differences it does make sense to 
try and capture that somehow.


This also applies where English has borrowed a word that means something 
else elsewhere - for example, I bet all the "shop=boutique" at 
https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/1u5H don't match the OSM wiki's definition, 
but do match the French meaning of the word "boutique", which means "shop".


Even "poorly written" data consumers need to be aware of the data they 
are consuming.  With OSM, there is no single definition**. Someone 
trying to interpret data for the part of Togo that I linked above would 
surely say that https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/5001651960 (tagged 
only "shop=boutique") is just "some sort of shop".


More generally, anyone with half a brain consuming OSM shop data (or 
actually, _any_ external data from _anywhere_) will look at the values 
contained in it***.  The next time you're on a plane, ask yourself - "is 
it likely that the aircraft's systems have been tested with inputs from 
sensors out of the expected range of those sensors to ensure that they 
can deal with that input?".  The answer will of course be "yes".


Best Regards,

Andy


** we know that the OSM wiki does not describe the data in the Togo 
example.  It doesn't matter that it is the data that is wrong (in OSM 
terms); the OSM wiki still does not describe the data.


*** although some high-profile organisations have failed that most basic 
task (e.g. 
https://www.theguardian.com/games/2020/aug/21/melbourne-fawkner-suburbia-users-poke-fun-at-microsoft-flight-simulator-glitches 
).



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Re: [OSM-talk] bot proposal: shop values cleanup (low use values only, 1 used 250 times, three over 100 times, many used less)

[Mateusz Konieczny via talk]

Apr 22, 2023, 14:10 by ajt1...@gmail.com:

> On 21/04/2023 12:46, Mateusz Konieczny via talk wrote:
>
>> when you search for tea shop and it was marked as
>> shop=herbata ("herbata" is Polish for tea) then even a well written search 
>> tool
>> will fail to reliably find it.
>>
>
> Where something is an _absolute direct equivalent_ (but in another language) 
> it makes no sense to use a distinct term (no-one's going to suggest 
> "highway=autoweg" for motorways in the Netherlands, for example), but where 
> there are genuine differences it does make sense to try and capture that 
> somehow.
>
I agree, but what about cases where the same meaning may be represented by more
standard tags? Would you agree that for example

shop = dog_grooming → shop = pet_grooming pet = dog 
shop = dog_beauty → shop = pet_grooming pet = dog 
shop = disused:bakery → disused:shop = bakery 
shop = pharmacy → amenity = pharmacy 
shop = hookah_lounge → amenity = hookah_lounge 

are helpful edits increasing usefulness and quality of OSM data (also when
done as automated bot edit - assuming that bot went through discussion)

> This also applies where English has borrowed a word that means something else 
> elsewhere - for example, I bet all the "shop=boutique" at > 
> https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/1u5H>  don't match the OSM wiki's definition, but 
> do match the French meaning of the word "boutique", which means "shop".
>
> Even "poorly written" data consumers need to be aware of the data they are 
> consuming.  With OSM, there is no single definition**. Someone trying to 
> interpret data for the part of Togo that I linked above would surely say that 
> > https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/5001651960>  (tagged only 
> "shop=boutique") is just "some sort of shop".
>
shop=boutique seems to be a bit different problem, basically
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skunked_term that should be deprecated and not 
used

> More generally, anyone with half a brain consuming OSM shop data (or 
> actually, _any_ external data from _anywhere_) will look at the values 
> contained in it***.
>
And that is exactly what lead to proposing this edits - I was writing code to 
handle OSM
data and researched tagging situation. And one of[1] effects was discovering 
numerous
cases of tags that seem to be exact duplicates of more standard ones, and 
retagging
them seems to clearly improve OSM data as far as I can see

Every data consumers spending massive time on building own alias list for tags
and adding exceptions for say shop = disused:florist  does not seem to be a
superior solution to me - and for values listed here I think that bot edit is 
better
than asking people in changeset comments or opening notes or doing nothing.

Though maybe for

shop = vaping → shop = e-cigarette
shop = vape_store → shop = e-cigarette
shop = vape → shop = e-cigarette
shop = Vape_Store → shop = e-cigarette

asking people in changeset comments who added this tags what they think about
shop = e-cigarette would  be a good idea? Rather then retagging in this 
proposed 
edit?



[1] other results included improvements of OSM Wiki, improvements of iD presets
like https://github.com/openstreetmap/id-tagging-schema/pull/884
"stop assuming that all shop=organic are supermarkets" that just got merged
and removed certain dubious deprecation and some discussions and
recommendations to use an alternative tagging.

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Re: [OSM-talk] bot proposal: shop values cleanup (low use values only, 1 used 250 times, three over 100 times, many used less)

[Andy Townsend]

On 24/04/2023 16:57, Mateusz Konieczny via talk wrote:



Apr 22, 2023, 14:10 by ajt1...@gmail.com:

More generally, anyone with half a brain consuming OSM shop data
(or actually, _any_ external data from _anywhere_) will look at
the values contained in it***.

And that is exactly what lead to proposing this edits - I was writing 
code to handle OSM
data and researched tagging situation. And one of[1] effects was 
discovering numerous
cases of tags that seem to be exact duplicates of more standard ones, 
and retagging

them seems to clearly improve OSM data as far as I can see

Your continued tagfiddling here is making it much harder for local 
mappers to find problem values in OSM data.


No-one's going to complain about you changing "shop=shoe" to 
"shop=shoes" - they clearly have the same meaning, so changing the less 
common form to the more common form is a net benefit.


However, your recent changes have gone much further than this, included 
changing shops with values you don't understand into "shop=yes".  As an 
example, consider https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/353944525 .  It was 
previously "shop=retail", an unusual and rare tag that would likely flag 
up the interest of a passing local mapper.  You changed it to 
"shop=yes", of which there are 180,000 of in OSM.  No-one is going to 
spot that as an "unusual" shop at all.  This one's actually a charity 
shop, and a question about it on IRC would have got that response in 
only a few minutes (or a glance at taginfo/overpass: 
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/name=Lighthouse%20Charity%20Shop#overview 
/ https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/1v3j ).


Changing "invalid" (by whatever definition) values to "valid but 
incorrect" ones does not improve the quality of OSM, and it actually 
hides problems so that they are much harder to fix in the future.


Do we perhaps need a StreetComplete quest searching for incorrect values 
set by "Mateusz Konieczny - bot account" so that they can be corrected 
to valid values? :)


In the case of the changesets that I've seen just now and commented on 
(see https://resultmaps.neis-one.org/osm-discussion-comments?uid=3199858 
) many are by longstanding contributors to OSM.  In many cases a comment 
on a previous changeset would have got the answer "yes, obviously that 
should be a shop=xyz" (rather than you just setting it to shop=yes).  I 
thought that after the discussion on 
https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/134837986 that you weren't going 
to mass-change actual values to shop=yes any more, but clearly I was wrong.


Best Regards,

Andy

(for the avoidance of doubt, writing in a personal capacity)



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Re: [OSM-talk] bot proposal: shop values cleanup (low use values only, 1 used 250 times, three over 100 times, many used less)

[David Haberthür]

Ciao Andy

> On 16 May 2023, at 19:15, Andy Townsend  wrote:
> 
> You changed it to "shop=yes", of which there are 180,000 of in OSM.  No-one 
> is going to spot that as an "unusual" shop at all.

Especially since these `shop=yes` are not rendered on OpenStreetMap Carto 
anymore, this made me generate https://maproulette.org/browse/challenges/9400 a 
while ago.
Half of the so-tagged shops in Switzerland have been fixed since then.
So there *is* potential to spot those.

Greetings from Switzerland,
habi
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Re: [OSM-talk] bot proposal: shop values cleanup (low use values only, 1 used 250 times, three over 100 times, many used less)

[Mateusz Konieczny via talk]

May 16, 2023, 19:22 by ajt1...@gmail.com:

> On 24/04/2023 16:57, Mateusz Konieczny  via talk wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Apr 22, 2023, 14:10 by >> ajt1...@gmail.com>> :
>>
>>
>>> More generally, anyone with half a brain consuming OSM shop  data 
>>> (or actually, _any_ external data from _anywhere_) will  look at 
>>> the values contained in it***.
>>>
>> And that is exactly what lead to proposing thisedits - I was writing 
>> code to handle OSM
>> data and researched tagging situation. And oneof[1] effects was 
>> discovering numerous
>> cases of tags that seem to be exact duplicates ofmore standard ones, 
>> and retagging
>> them seems to clearly improve OSM data as far as Ican see
>>
>>
>
> Your continued tagfiddling here is making it much harder for  local 
> mappers to find problem values in OSM data.
>
>
> No-one's going to complain about you changing "shop=shoe" to  
> "shop=shoes" - they clearly have the same meaning, so changing the  less 
> common form to the more common form is a net benefit.
>
>
> However, your recent changes have gone much further than this,  included 
> changing shops with values you don't understand into  "shop=yes".  
>
>
For start: no such changes will be made, if requested I can revert changes
of shop=fixme to shop=yes if it is disputed.

---

But I do not really agree with some claims made here and want to explain why.

For start there is a long list of shop values which meaning I do not understand
(for example, from start of list of exactly such values:
shop=grossery, shop=towing, shop=showroom, shop=salon, shop=garage,
shop=pond, shop=consignment...)

This change was made because it was carrying no real info and was obscure value
unlikely to be found and handled by mappers.

> As an example, consider > https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/353944525>  .  It 
> was previously  "shop=retail", an unusual and rare tag that would likely 
> flag up  the interest of a passing local mapper.  You changed it to  
> "shop=yes", of which there are 180,000 of in OSM.  
>
Except people using JOSM validator*, iD, StreetComplete and other tools with 
special
support for shop=yes as feature tag. Note that this tools are more or less 
proactive
while shop with unusual values will be spotted solely by manual checks
(as listing all unusual shop values is far from helpful and requires a long
filtering to skip undocumented values, aliases, confusing values carrying some 
info)

*and therefore also Osmose, though I would not recommend this QA tool

> No-one is going to spot that as an "unusual" shop at all.  
>
Thousands/tens of thousands were fixed already, at least 10 000 would be 
definitely not spotted and not fixed if they would be just one of 10237 rare 
shop values.


> This one's actually a  charity shop, and a question about it on IRC would 
> have got that  response in only a few minutes (or a glance at 
> taginfo/overpass: > 
> https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/name=Lighthouse%20Charity%20Shop#overview>
>   / > https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/1v3j>  ).
>
> Changing "invalid" (by whatever definition) values to "valid but  
> incorrect" ones does not improve the quality of OSM, and it  actually 
> hides problems so that they are much harder to fix in the  future.
>
>
I would describe this change as "invalid unusual value" to "invalid common 
value,
supported by QA tools and more likely to be fixed or specially supported"

>
> In the case of the changesets that I've seen just now and  commented on 
> (see > https://resultmaps.neis-one.org/osm-discussion-comments?uid=3199858>  
> ) many are by longstanding contributors to OSM.  In many cases a  comment 
> on a previous changeset would have got the answer "yes,  obviously that 
> should be a shop=xyz" (rather than you just setting  it to shop=yes). 
>
>
I am doing also this - and maybe opening notes/making changeset comments first
in all such cases would be preferable.

>  I thought that after the discussion on > 
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/134837986>  that you weren't  
> going to mass-change actual values to shop=yes any more, but  clearly I 
> was wrong.
>
So you would consider any and all changes to shop=yes as making things worse?


> (for the avoidance of doubt, writing in a personal capacity)
>
the same

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Re: [OSM-talk] bot proposal: shop values cleanup (low use values only, 1 used 250 times, three over 100 times, many used less)

[Warin]

On 18/5/23 04:48, Mateusz Konieczny via talk wrote:




May 16, 2023, 19:22 by ajt1...@gmail.com:

On 24/04/2023 16:57, Mateusz Konieczny via talk wrote:



Apr 22, 2023, 14:10 by ajt1...@gmail.com:

More generally, anyone with half a brain consuming OSM shop
data (or actually, _any_ external data from _anywhere_) will
look at the values contained in it***.

And that is exactly what lead to proposing this edits - I was
writing code to handle OSM
data and researched tagging situation. And one of[1] effects was
discovering numerous
cases of tags that seem to be exact duplicates of more standard
ones, and retagging
them seems to clearly improve OSM data as far as I can see


Your continued tagfiddling here is making it much harder for local
mappers to find problem values in OSM data.

No-one's going to complain about you changing "shop=shoe" to
"shop=shoes" - they clearly have the same meaning, so changing the
less common form to the more common form is a net benefit.

However, your recent changes have gone much further than this,
included changing shops with values you don't understand into
"shop=yes".

For start: no such changes will be made, if requested I can revert changes
of shop=fixme to shop=yes if it is disputed.

---

But I do not really agree with some claims made here and want to 
explain why.


For start there is a long list of shop values which meaning I do not 
understand

(for example, from start of list of exactly such values:
shop=grossery, shop=towing, shop=showroom, shop=salon, shop=garage,
shop=pond, shop=consignment...)

This change was made because it was carrying no real info and was 
obscure value

unlikely to be found and handled by mappers.

As an example, consider
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/353944525 .  It was previously
"shop=retail", an unusual and rare tag that would likely flag up
the interest of a passing local mapper.  You changed it to
"shop=yes", of which there are 180,000 of in OSM.

Except people using JOSM validator*, iD, StreetComplete and other 
tools with special
support for shop=yes as feature tag. Note that this tools are more or 
less proactive

while shop with unusual values will be spotted solely by manual checks
(as listing all unusual shop values is far from helpful and requires a 
long
filtering to skip undocumented values, aliases, confusing values 
carrying some info)


*and therefore also Osmose, though I would not recommend this QA tool

No-one is going to spot that as an "unusual" shop at all.

Thousands/tens of thousands were fixed already, at least 10 000 would be
definitely not spotted and not fixed if they would be just one of 
10237 rare shop values.




A render finding an unexpected value could simply handle it as 
'shop=yes' and carry on.



If you want to flag these to mappers?Then contact the relevant mapper 
then failing a contact add a fixme/note. ???



shop=garage .. A shop that sells garages...

https://www.totalspan.com.au/residential/garages/garages-with-workshops/
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Re: [OSM-talk] bot proposal: shop values cleanup (low use values only, 1 used 250 times, three over 100 times, many used less)

[Philip Barnes]

On Wed, 2023-05-17 at 20:48 +0200, Mateusz Konieczny via talk wrote:
> 
> For start there is a long list of shop values which meaning I do not
> understand
> (for example, from start of list of exactly such values:
> shop=grossery, shop=towing, shop=showroom, shop=salon, shop=garage,
> shop=pond, shop=consignment...)
> 
Maybe here I have the advantage of being a native speaker but these
mostly look fairly intuitive to me. Also looking at the names often
helps.

shop=grossery
First glance it looks like a typo of grocery. 
There is one in the UK which is a small co-op. So that one should be
shop=convenience. I do not know about the usage in Cameroon but asking
local mappers is preferable to simply changing the tag to =yes. They
could well be foodshops/grocers>

shop=towing
First thought is 'depends on the flavour (or flavor) of English.

Usage is mostly in North American and it looks like breakdown, tow your
vehicle. Names tend to confirm this.

shop=showroom
Where stuff is displayed for sale to be installed seems to be the
thing.
A bit like the Gas Showrooms of my childhood. These were places where
gas appliances were displayed, you paid for them and they were then
fitted by their staff.


shop=salon
Salon is a common name used for a hairdressers shop, so most likely a
mistagging of shop=hairdresser or beauty.
The names of places with those tags tends to confirm my suspicions.

shop=garage
Garage has a few car related meanings. A place where you take your car
to be repaired, fill it with fuel or its a building where you keep your
car.

Tags of the places using this suggest a mix of car stuff. Mostly car
repair. For example https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/153706791 has a
note MOT operator, so car testing/repair
and https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/509612586 Chesterfield Concrete
Garages will obviously sell you a concrete pre-fabricated garage to put
in your garden.

shop=pond
This one seems obvious. Immediately thought of a shop selling pond
supplies, pumps, liners, plants, fish for your garden pond.
More commonly tag usage is shop=aquatics.

The main thing if you don't understand a tag 

shop=consignment
The word consignment suggests a courier but appears to be a thing in
the US and Canada. Quite a few, and it seems to be what they describe
themselves as.
I am prepared to accept that this is outside my life experience and if
I need to understand it I will ask the local community or a mapper who
has added them. Actually there a two within a few minutes walk of my
cousins in her local high street, so I could ask her.

But changing these to shop=yes helps nobody. As I mentioned shop=pond
would probably have been my first thought if I wanted a pump and liner
for my garden pond.

Phil (trigpoint)

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Re: [OSM-talk] bot proposal: shop values cleanup (low use values only, 1 used 250 times, three over 100 times, many used less)

[John Whelan]

shop=consignment

Locally it means a shop that sells things such as high end used clothes on 
consignment.  ie the owner of the goods only get paid when the items are sold.

Cheerio John



Philip Barnes wrote on 5/19/2023 12:25 PM:

On Wed, 2023-05-17 at 20:48 +0200, Mateusz Konieczny via talk wrote:

For start there is a long list of shop values which meaning I do not
understand
(for example, from start of list of exactly such values:
shop=grossery, shop=towing, shop=showroom, shop=salon, shop=garage,
shop=pond, shop=consignment...)


Maybe here I have the advantage of being a native speaker but these
mostly look fairly intuitive to me. Also looking at the names often
helps.

shop=grossery
First glance it looks like a typo of grocery.
There is one in the UK which is a small co-op. So that one should be
shop=convenience. I do not know about the usage in Cameroon but asking
local mappers is preferable to simply changing the tag to =yes. They
could well be foodshops/grocers>

shop=towing
First thought is 'depends on the flavour (or flavor) of English.

Usage is mostly in North American and it looks like breakdown, tow your
vehicle. Names tend to confirm this.

shop=showroom
Where stuff is displayed for sale to be installed seems to be the
thing.
A bit like the Gas Showrooms of my childhood. These were places where
gas appliances were displayed, you paid for them and they were then
fitted by their staff.


shop=salon
Salon is a common name used for a hairdressers shop, so most likely a
mistagging of shop=hairdresser or beauty.
The names of places with those tags tends to confirm my suspicions.

shop=garage
Garage has a few car related meanings. A place where you take your car
to be repaired, fill it with fuel or its a building where you keep your
car.

Tags of the places using this suggest a mix of car stuff. Mostly car
repair. For example https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/153706791 has a
note MOT operator, so car testing/repair
and https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/509612586 Chesterfield Concrete
Garages will obviously sell you a concrete pre-fabricated garage to put
in your garden.

shop=pond
This one seems obvious. Immediately thought of a shop selling pond
supplies, pumps, liners, plants, fish for your garden pond.
More commonly tag usage is shop=aquatics.

The main thing if you don't understand a tag

shop=consignment
The word consignment suggests a courier but appears to be a thing in
the US and Canada. Quite a few, and it seems to be what they describe
themselves as.
I am prepared to accept that this is outside my life experience and if
I need to understand it I will ask the local community or a mapper who
has added them. Actually there a two within a few minutes walk of my
cousins in her local high street, so I could ask her.

But changing these to shop=yes helps nobody. As I mentioned shop=pond
would probably have been my first thought if I wanted a pump and liner
for my garden pond.

Phil (trigpoint)

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